Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

[Kurk818]

We may not comment all the time but man do i love when you post updates. Keep up the updates! I have big body revision plans for mine this coming fall and winter.

[Frank818]

Thought I might show pictures of the engine off the car as well as clearances I fixed or still fear.

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This is how tight it was to drop it in.


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[Frank818]

Ok engine has started again, today. No video, too much to look at and do at the same time. :( However I can tell that this build is psychologically very rough. Far from out of the woods yet.


LOTS happened in the past few weeks, 100% of my free time was on the car, not even possible to skim around here and read people's progress. :( Weather starts to be ok to drive but I still can't and I fear I need to dismantle the engine again to fix an oil pressure issue. :(



But before that, after fixing a cold coolant leak due to a bad spec o-ring (thanks to my vendor from last year), there were a few other things I needed to fix, for some reasons a few things stop working properly after a year and a half without doing anything with the car. Ok, one of them was cuz I tried to connect a connector plug 180-deg flipped around on my gauge. Let's keep that classified.

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Still need to find out if my new inner CV boots will work, they are less than 1mm clearance at ride height! And they contact when car is lifted. I knew I needed to widen the metal cup around the boot, but anyway, not my priority right now.

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My next 2 posts are as follows: first one is for the good news and 2nd one the bad news.

[Frank818]

All electrical is working (after fixing)
NO hot leak outside of any kind! On first try, that never happened to me before. Oil, coolant and fuel are not leaking outside, this is a miracle
Took about 4-5 crankings to fire up the engine
Took another 8-10 to sort of understand why it was dying after 2-3sec. Turned off sequential injection and it fired right up (will fix that later on cuz it's not normal)
Engine fires up fine and keeps idle
Engine seems quiet. Maybe that's a bad news, though
The fuel values (mapping) I guessed for the new ID1050x injectors were spot on give or take 10%! That is also a miracle, I won my challenge between Old and New injectors (with bigger bore and different flowing head) on first startup. If anyone runs a stand alone ECU, I might be able to help on fuel mapping, it seems I'm not that bad
Blipping throttle to 2000-2500rpm also showed nice fuel values, and then I was able to roll in 1st gear for about 20 feet (in garage). Flawlessly
So far no clutch tik-tik-tik-tik sound when hot and pressing it, like a year and a half ago
Fixed a bunch of things I didn't like, clearance issues, solutions I was not happy about, etc. Even added a catch can the proper way
I don't think I have exhaust leaks
JE pistons do not make any cling-cling noise when cold (or hot). I've always been told those pistons were making noise when cold cuz they expand with heat so they flutter when cold. No noise to my ears, just my exhaust and my injectors (all normal too)
All 6 pistons looked similar with powdered carbon deposits (still running rich for now)
All 6 spark plugs looked very similar with same amount of carbon on them and no gloss
It seems my weird click click click on the rear right wheel when rolling is gone, if yes it was a bad bearing. But to be sure I need to roll for 100-200ft, which I can't now

[Frank818]

My AWIC pump is working but not pumping water. This one I cannot fix until I drain and remove the pump to see what's going on. Maybe just an air pocket, I don't know. Not big of a deal during engine break in cuz turbo won't be pushing. Air will be hot but still less than in AZ (right, Pete?), so I'm ok for now
Here's the big hit: my oil pressure at idle and 70-80C water temp (160-180F) is 11 PSI!!! 11psi = 0.8bar. I think I should have 30-40psi or something (2.5bar+). THAT worries me a lot. 2 sensors out of 3 showed me the same results, as on the pics. However those 2 are on the same piping path and maybe the piping is blocked with something, I used a lot of silicon to prevent leaks or maybe it's some teflon. The 3rd sensor is the VW OEM low pressure warning sensor. It triggers a warning on the cluster when the pressure is at 0.3bar, or 4.3psi. It did not trigger cuz I was apparently at 11. But it did trigger the last summer I drove the Corrado years ago and I highly doubt it was at 4psi. That is close to nothing. 0.3bar is low warning and my high warning OEM sensor is 1.4bar. That's 19psi, doesn't make any sense, so I don't know if I can trust those OEM warning sensors anymore cuz I don't understand the numbers they're triggered at
To complement the above, I found out cylinder 5 has liquid oil on top of a portion of the piston. However the spark plug has NO sign of burning oil at all + I was able to move the oil around on the piston and remove it with a thin stick, it was sticking on the piston. I wonder if the oil leaked in after engine shut down... from where? That is the question.


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I've heard on a freshly bored and honed block with new rings that have a wider gap to accommodate the turbo pressure it's possible during break in there is blow-by and loss of oil, cuz the walls are not smoothed out yet and oil gets trapped within the crevices and can leak. Also apparently JE pistons burn some oil during break in. But is that ok to have 11psi pressure? Definitely not to me.


I checked oil level and priming the pump used a lot more than I thought, level was just under the minimum mark, so I added half a quart, didn't change much on level and still 11psi. I then shut if off for good and added a LOT more oil until I reached top mark. I know low oil level will greatly reduce its pressure. What are my chances that is the only culprit?



I did not start the engine since, so I'm stressed out and won't sleep. lolll Will start Monday around 11AM-noon.
I will call my mech at 7h30 too.


If he says we need to remove the head and see what's up, I'll torture myself.


I hope that little oil leaking is normal and that the low pressure was due to very low oil level.

[Frank818]

I have big body revision plans for mine this coming fall and winter.

Come again? :)

[Frank818]

A few posts ago I promised a surprise. It's all engine parts weight!


While all was removed the opportunity was too good and hopefully the last to precisely weigh my engine. I always wanted to know and to compare with your 818 WRX (didn't see anyone weighing their 818 engine yet).


Here's what I came up with (I have pix if someone wants to see something):



Intake manifold+TBody = 10lbs
Alternator = 16lbs
Exhaust manifold+turbo = 41lbs
Dry "crate" engine (pullies, oil pan, clutch, block, internals, head, cams and cam cover) = 327lbs
G50 gearbox wet = 153lbs
Oil filter housing, filter, sensors and oil feed line = 5lbs
Closed circuit coolant parts (housing, pipe, hoses, aux pump) = 12lbs
OEM oil cooler + turbo oil return line = 2lbs
AWIC core = 9lbs
Muffler = 20lbs
Downpipe and dump tube = 8lbs
Starter = 9lbs
Intake piping = 15lbs
Injectors and fuel rail = 3lbs GUESS



Summary:

Full exhaust from head = 69lbs
Exhaust from DP = 28lbs
Dry engine (no acc) with wet gearbox = 480lbs

FULL WORKING DRIVETRAIN = 630lbs!

[aquillen]

Did you bend any shoe-horns getting that lump in the chassis :)

You likely can "validate" oil pressure senders - pull the sender and rig it to air pressure (regulated), dial up the air pressure with a trusted air pressure guage to various values and then see what the oil press guage in the car reads... I tested my low cost aftermarket guage that way just to see if it was legit..

[Frank818]

Hey Art, didn't know I could test those with air, will keep that in my notes. Would be a last resort thing to do for me cuz in order to remove them I need to remove the filter housing which needs to get hoses and electrical wires out of the way, a long task with critical access. For the moment I'll assume it's super unlikely that 2 previously working senders would decide to fail at the exact same time and showing the exact same value.



Called my mech and I was wrong on the oil pressure! He said 11psi at 900rpm isn't a problem. He said 30-40 is WAY too much. If I hit 55 at 3-4000rpm neutral I will be ok. He also said if not enough pressure the lifters would make a lot of noise and they didn't, the engine sounded just like it should. He also said it's normal to have some oil on the pistons during break in period, the important thing is that the plugs have no gloss.

I felt it somehow sluggish when blipping the throttle and getting back to 900rpm but that could only be some timing and fuelling adjustments.

I'll start it up again later today and see how it runs, but happy what I thought was bad is actually not.

[Kurk818]

Come again? :)

LOL. I will be making front and rear end clamp shells. Also need to make front and rear flares to accommodate the 295/255 tires. Trying to decide if i should make them bolt/glue on or seamless and part of the bodywork.

[Frank818]

YES! It was oil level.

Check this out, man!


http://youtu.be/5TUlaXG0hww

The engine, although not tuned yet, is very prime when blipping and does not lug or slug whichever word for sluggish and barbels.

Fuel is more stable than before and easier to adjust. The engine feels light internally.

I drove around 0.4km (1200ft) and it didn't buck. Also no sign of tik tik tik in rear right wheel and no sign of clutch clik clik clik when hot either. No fumes, no leaks. I had nothing to fix! lolll

Now I need to get the body on and get on the road.
I also need to plug the return sprout on the overflow pipe, I fitted a 38-42psi cap but for some reasons it opens up when I shut down the engine when engine hot, so coolant got off the sprout and on the ground. I don't understand, I can't have over 42psi on that coolant system. Will have to plug that damn sprout. I should have fitted a closed pipe while coolant was drained but I chose the "easy" way of buying a high pressure cap (couldn't find a closed cap) that would never open. Supposedly... oh well.

Gearbox doesn't feel the same, I have almost no play between neutral and 1st, N and R, N and 3rd and N and 5th. Not sure what changed, I was missing 1st gear and R 3 times out of 4. But it does get in, eventually, so I can drive.


In a couple of weeks...
Other than that... damn it's ready to prep for road!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I also need to plug the return sprout on the overflow pipe, I fitted a 38-42psi cap but for some reasons it opens up when I shut down the engine when engine hot, so coolant got off the sprout and on the ground. I don't understand, I can't have over 42psi on that coolant system. Will have to plug that damn sprout. I should have fitted a closed pipe while coolant was drained but I chose the "easy" way of buying a high pressure cap (couldn't find a closed cap) that would never open. Supposedly... oh well.



Glad to see it running again. Most cooling systems run 16 to 21 psi. This raises the boiling temp to about 250f. Why is your system running 38-42 PSI?

[Frank818]

Glad to see it running again. Most cooling systems run 16 to 21 psi. This raises the boiling temp to about 250f. Why is your system running 38-42 PSI?


Hey Bob,

So that's why some racing systems use high pressure, to raise the boiling point. Now I know.


But I'm asking myself the same question as you, slightly differently. If that cap opened up, then what pressure am I running? My VW expansion tank (not overflow) has a 20-21psi cap.


I do not need the Subaru overflow tank, which I had previously fitted. The rad cap, which is in a pipiing close to the rad, was opening too soon and coolant was overflowing in the subaru tank, never sucking it back, so every 3-4 runs the tank was full, I had less coolant in my expansion tank, lowering the level under the turbo coolant hose and starting to get under the head top hose.


To fix this I went the easy way which is the most expensive too, stupid me. I wanted to buy a solid cap that would never open. Pretty simple! Couldn't find one the same size as the hole on the plastic (piping is from Mike Everson), so I bought a racing cap with the highest rating I could find.


Since my VW tank cap opens up at 20-21, never the Stant 38-42 cap would open, right? That was my understanding.


The cap opened up after shut down.


I wonder if this is one of those caps you have to push, twist and lock in 2 steps. I've seend some you push twist and lock once, then you push again further down and twist and lock again. I cannot push it down any further than once, I tried very hard. The piping was starting to twist instead.


So now I blocked off the little sprout with a small hose fitting with a long bolt with partial threads and nice clamps. Should keep coolant inside but that is not the pretty solution I wanted.


I should have fitted a free alu piping, still got some in stock. Cut it and fitted it, in place of the cap hole plastic pipe. Free of charge, just 2-3h more work and no fixing oveflowing afterwards. Oh well.

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[Canadian818]

Frank I had the same issue, rad cap was 21psi and high point in the rear cap was 13 or 16psi. The front cap would just bleed out coolant and never draw any back in so my level kept dropping. I actually thought it was overheating but it was my temp sensor reading steam since the coolant level was low. I just put a plug the little nipple where coolant bleeds out under the rad cap and now it functions properly and bleeds/draws normally at the rear cap.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

But I'm asking myself the same question as you, slightly differently. If that cap opened up, then what pressure am I running? My VW expansion tank (not overflow) has a 20-21psi cap.


Bob's rules of physics. Pressure is close to the same everywhere in the cooling system. I use the word "close" as the output side of the pump is higher the input side. Also, the pressure is higher at the bottom because of head pressure.


In your case, I don't think you front 38-42 psi cap is sealing properly.
Bob

[Frank818]

I don't think you front 38-42 psi cap is sealing properly.

I don't either. I think it's a cap you need to push-twist and lock twice, but I cannot, it doesn't push neither twist at all after one PT'nL. Anyway, we'll see how blocking off the nipple will work.

[Frank818]

Did you guys know the 90's McLaren F1 was using Corrado mirrors? You can see that in Jay Leno's review of the F1 but here are some pix comparison:

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[Frank818]

This wiper ain't gonna work no more. Should not be an issue.

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Some pix of my rebuilt:

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[Frank818]

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So tight I needed to cut the washer and make sure the bolt was lined up with the alu panel.

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[Frank818]

Corner weights time!!!!

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It's a bit unstable, I adjust the spring a little and then I'm at 49.9% cross, I adjust back, 50.1%, I jump my behind in the seat and I hit 50.2%. So I decided to leave it like this.

Heavy car, heavy drivetrain! More traction? Let's hope so.

[Frank818]

Finally the car is rebuilt. Again... haven't seen it like this since Nov 2017. God it looks good.

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[Frank818]

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Took the time last year to build myself some mudflaps.

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[Kurk818]

Looks awesome. Love the side scoops :) and the mud flaps. Gonna steal that idea

[redbudrr]

Great looking car!!! Nice job!!

[q4stix]

It's looking great! Glad to see it finally back together and just in time for spring!

[AZPete]

Looks beautiful! I like all the detail with blue in the steering wheel, the 2-piece dash, e-brake handle and more. Very nicely done, again. Is your weather getting warm enough to take it out?

[Frank818]

We are stuck at 12C-16C for weeks now, usually it's around 18-20C at this time, but sun is hot so on sunny days it'd be just perfect. My hope is this coming w-e. Crossing fingers nothing major will force me from dismantling parts again and wasting weeks working on the issues.

[aquillen]

Looks great - thanks for all the pics and details.

[Harley818]

Nice work Frank. Your patience is amazing. Good luck and hope its a good season for you.

[Frank818]

and the mud flaps. Gonna steal that idea

Actually I stole it myself from someone, I think it was Harley...
Pretty quick to design by re-using an unused alu sheet from FFR. I got very lucky I used one that already had the edge slightly bent on the width to give it that curve at the bottom.

[Pearldrummer7]

Damn, those mudflaps are nice. You have such an awesome looking car, Frank!

[Frank818]

Went for a spin this morning, finally!


Did only 2 miles. You'll see why later.


Good news are multiple.


- Suspension is in working condition. Stiff, but driveable, not my concern anymore at the moment. I think 375 in the back instead of 400 and 325 up front would be better, but having 400 in the back prevents the tires from rubbing the rear splash guards on compression, even though I have 1 finger clearance between tire and fender edge.
- No noticeable bumpsteer! Did not try on highway but around the block and holes, cracks and bumps it was fine. Time will tell.
- Acceleration is pretty quick for an engine not yet tuned. Engine sound under slow accel is not one of the best around but if you press on it a bit more it's a lot better! Impressed by its quickness so far.
- No startup issues, no stalls.
- Electric fan I put above the turbo DOES extract hot air from the engine bay through Craig's humps louvers when I shut down the engine.
- Alignment seems fine, the best I can do manually before I get it laser aligned, feels like a normal car alignment.
- Nothing fell on the ground or disconnected!
- No dust and gravel around the doors.
- No clutch noise.
- No wheel bearing noise.
- Exhaust smell is very minimal! Couldn't smell any while driving around the block.
- My inner CV boots don't seem to rub on the inner CV metal cup, which means even though the clearance is 1-2mm, it's sufficient in most driving conditions, I believe. Time will tell.



So following all this it means the car IS driveable. Why did I stop after 2 miles?



What I feared the most happened:

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The ****ing rad cap again! 4th time it pisses on me, this little tabarnak! The cap was loose!!! It was hardly in place before and now it wobbles in all directions. Somehow, the pressure loosened the cap and it poured all around it while driving.


I lost so much coolant my in-dash low level warning light flashed. At least it's working.


It splashed everywhere up front. I even have coolant inside the front wheels and along side the side pod, inside the pods. I am not removing the side pods, too bad.
I have to remove most alu panels up front, the splitter again as it's filled up with coolant and... and so many other things.


Good news is the mud flaps did their job, they have coolant on them and prevented from splashing under the side pods, outside.



Then I have to find a way to fix that damn cap, but I am out of ideas.
Replace the rad cap hole hose by a solid pipe without cap hole? Maybe, but I am unsure how to fill up coolant in the rad, then. My thermostat is closed, the VW expansion tank is connected to the closed circuit, not the open circuit.





I understand now why I have so many problems on this build. I am a good show car builder, but a very bad road car builder... :(

[Frank818]

Good ol' Bob was right yet again when he said, and I quote "It's not sealed properly you MF". lolll
I knew something was wrong with the cap but didn't think it was not sealed AT ALL!

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I found the double twist and lock thing. The problem was related to the metal notches on either side of the cap, noted by the red top arrow. Those notches were too tight so when I was twisting and locking they were following the green line but couldn't go further than the bottom red arrow. Cuz it couldn't push down enough to let the plastic notch pass between the metal notch and top of cap.

So I took a big flat head screwdriver and pryed (pried? Pry in past tense) just a little those metal notches. Now when I push down the second time it goes under the plastic notch and twists further in! The plastic notch will prevent the cap from unscrewing. Yesterday it unscrewed by pressure cuz there wasn't any plastic notch to keep it in place.

100% my mistake. Which confirms how bad a road car builder I am. :)


Make sure your rad cap is Bob sealed!!!
You ain't want a coolant mess up front the 818...

[AZPete]

Whew, I'm glad it was just a simple fix. you deserve it. Now, out for a longer drive?

[Frank818]

Whew, I'm glad it was just a simple fix. you deserve it. Now, out for a longer drive?

Won't seal as far as I thought compared to the plastic notch, I cannot go over that notch for basic reasons I cannot explain well without pictures, but I made it tighter and I thought of 2 ways to secure it in place as much as possible.
So it's ready for a longer drive assuming it won't pop again. Unfortunately, job and weather are not much aligned at the moment (I don't live in the Mojave desert like you), so my target is Sunday and if I take Monday off to celebrate the day off with you guys, Monday looks promising too.

Curiously when I filled it up with coolant it filled up the rad as well! Although my thermostat is closed. So either I did something wrong many years ago and plugged hoses in the wrong thermostat housing holes, or VW designed the thermostat housing to be that way. No worries worst case it makes the engine warm up slower but so far it didn't seem out of the ordinary.

[Frank818]

Some people here are like me and also love powerful electric drivetrains (cars or bikes, right Bob? :)). I've always been a huge fan of Rimac's out of the box thinking to be one of if not the leader in terms of powerful electric motors and batteries. Here's one for you:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCdzCWzsvG8

[Bob_n_Cincy]

cars or bikes, right Bob?

Last week I was working on putting a modern electric powertrain in a 70+ year old car. I will post a video when it's done with owners permission. Don't forget I've also done electric boats and trucks.
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Bob

[Frank818]

Looks cool Bob! I should have gone electric on the 818... see next post.

[Frank818]

This time the rad cap is staying in place.
However one of my rear coolant hose, right above the exhaust, blew up. 5 sec before I shut down the engine in my garage, that is the only relief! I heard a POP and then I saw thick white smoke coming out of my rear hump louver cuz the fan is pushing out air through the louver and all of the coolant was pouring on the hot exhaust.

Stupid hose popped. It was fine for over 120km and then pop! The pink thing around the hose is a pink rag to hold it angled upwards.

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If anyone wants to buy the car at a decent price I'm willing to sell. 50 to 200h to make it reliable and it would be a blast to drive, capable of 600bhp if tuned properly.
I might part it out too, cuz the newly rebuilt engine and G50 box are worth a huge chunk.

In the meantime I'll repair it and we'll see what comes up first: me driving again the car but without issues for the 1st time, or selling it.

[AZPete]

Frank, step away from it for a few days. It's just a hose - easy to replace. Vodka helps.

[Frank818]

It's just a hose - easy to replace.

Normally yes. This one is particular.

I have a bad setup (remember what I said about being a bad road car builder), it's a T-fitting with a 3/4 hose on top, 3/4 on the bottom right and 20 or 21mm on the bottom left.
3/4 = 19mm.
The bottom left is 1-2mm larger and I couldn't find a t-fitting that is 3/4-3/4-20/21mm. So I put some high temp tape to enlarge the barb fitting, 3-4 years ago. But pressure made it slip away, probably cuz it wasn't tight enough and some coolant slipped through between the hose and barb, lubricating the space more. Don't know.

All I know is the t-fitting is not the correct size and I pushed the installation anyway.

Now trying to use some aeroquip barb fitting push-on, correct sizes, and one size t-fitting screw-on (threads). But then again I have a hard time finding the right fittings.


My problem is only a problem of fitting sizes! That's so stupid.

Any advice on the right solution here would be awesome. I can take better pictures of the area if required.

[DSR-3]

Sorry to hear about the challenges, and not to kick you while down, but that was not a great idea... I suggest that you sketch the perfect fitting/solution and find a way to have it made. I have at least 2 custom fittings in my system. I typically buy the parts/materials and do all the fab work and have a skilled welder do it right. There are also reducing hoses both straight and elbow.
Good luck, don't give up!

[Frank818]

that was not a great idea...

Precisely my point.
Which means, for anyone reading this, if you are somewhat unsure of your solution, or you needed to cheat to make it work, undo everything and redo it differently, cuz it's not normal to not have confidence on the end result. If you are asking yourself "is this going to last?", redo the solution. 8 times out of 10 I've asked myself that question things blew up on me.



I suggest that you sketch the perfect fitting/solution and find a way to have it made.

I ordered a straight reducer 20mm to 18mm. Seems on barb fittings with a hose ID of x the correct size fitting is x-1. So 21mm-1=20. And 19mm-1=18. I test fitted the fittings I have with 20mm and 18mm (they are not reducers) and it worked perfectly.

I am limited on the length cuz my hose makes an elbow pretty quickly, but it's 75mm long and I take an absolute max of 82mm. Should be ok! I'm adding 2 extra clamps to the solution, 2 potential point of failures, but with the perfect fittings and clamps that should not happen anyway.

Need to wait 3 weeks for shipping, ordered from UK. Usually faster than that, maybe I'll get lucky.


I guess during those 3 weeks I'll take some vodka and get to bed later so I don't need to wake up at 4h30 7 days a week to work on the car. Correct, Pete?

[svanlare]

I feel your pain here.

I realized working on this project that I dislike plumbing on a car just as much as I dislike it under the sink. In the month before I drove round trip to LA, I think I had the coolant system apart 6 times or more. Nothing like inspiring confidence before my first big drive. I feel like every single joint leaked or I couldn't get the system bleed right and it kept overheating. :mad:

These things saved me. "power grip clamps" that I shrink wrapped at first on the hard to get to spots, later I got them all. That and Vodka. Hang in there.
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[Frank818]

Thanks Steve, that does help to know I'm not the only one. If I knew about those heatshrink clamps before I'd use them.

My fitting is due around June 20, 1 month for shipping from UK, that means someone is delivering on a kayak for sure but anyway... The good news is the engine seems to work so well and burn fuel SO MUCH better than the setup I had before. That's what I have to focus on.

However, maybe I should have gone electric still!! 5 years ago it wasn't as evolved as it is now, so starting my project now I'd freakin seriously consider electric. Lots of electricity, at least 400wtq.

[Frank818]

Koenigsegg... these guys have RE-invented the wheel for many car parts already... And they did it again with this awesome gearbox, who would have thought of such an out of the box design but them...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSxQtHOfljE

[Frank818]

I'm exhausted of this project, but still moving fwd.

Since my UK ebay guy hasn't delivered in 3 weeks (FedEx Swim service I guess), I turned around. I don't know why but I didn't think about this solution 3 weeks ago and then when txting with the other 818 in QC I did it.

Got myself a custom fitting machined. Turns out he's got a couple of machines, computer ones and manual ones. Alu 6061 SUPER light fitting, I've never had such a light fitting, I feel great now that I removed a couple of ounces from the car... and added a few more by using more clamps. loll

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Check out the thin wall on the smaller end. Still very strong and since coolant pressure will push out while clamps are crushing in, it shouldn't blow up.
As you can notice the inside diameter (ID) is the same all across, not reducing like you usually get.

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Cost? 10 to 15 times more expensive than ebay but exactly my specs and I could have had it the next day my old fitting popped out. Took me 1h to drive to his home, 1h to machine and 1h to drive back. I got to see his race 818, he came back from work with it. Totally different goal than mine.

So now the car is back up in ONE piece, however I finished it too late today to get it out for tuning. It's not a drive, it's a tune, I need to watch every single thing that happens on the car, at the same time. Hard for the brain since it's not an ECU.

I'll try to take a sunny day off this week or next w-e is another 3-day w-e here so there should be at least one day without rain. This 3-day w-e was all without rain, but car wasn't ready.



What's your gamble for the next issue?

[aquillen]

Let's pretend everything will go great from here on. I don't believe in optimism much but worth a try :)

[Frank818]

It's dead. :(

This time the engine broke. I was able to run the engine for about 1h, all went fine! I drove 4km, my longest distance so far.

Then I came back in driveway, lifted the rear engine cover for the 7th or 8th time during the run to check everything's ok. While I was checking the engine was idling of course and then all of a sudden CLING CLING CLING CLING! No warning.

I saw the AFRs in the high 9s-low 10s and I shut it down after maybe 5sec of clinging.

I was able alone to get the car down the driveway and up the garage, was very hard by turning the wheels with my hands on the rims' spokes. I tried to start it up again, a quarter of a turn, and it felt like a very low voltage battery with pistons seizing up.

I'll remove the plugs if I can see anything there, but everything external to the engine seems ok at the moment. I didn't check around the clutch yet.

Have no idea what that could be!!!

But if I need to get the engine out and dismantled again, it's the end for a 3rd year in a row. Didn't seem something easy to fix or without damaging the internals, though.

[Frank818]

Wow my fuel pressure was at 92psi! That's 6.3bar... usually it's at 60-66psi. Good thing those injectors support up to 10bar. I don't know how long it was at 92psi and whether that is or not a problem. I saw that either before the engine issue or at the engine issue when I press the stop button, can't recall. Something to remember next time, if there is a next time.



My ECU log showed that when the issue happened, my MAP values started to rise from 40kpa (normal idle) up to 90-95 (WOT on an NA engine). Something increased pressure in the intake manifold, which yields me to a valve problem. This explains the 9-10AFR I had, 90-95kpa MAP injects a lot more fuel.



If the problem was in the short block, the engine would have stopped turning and mostly my oil pressure would have dropped, which it didn't. The engine turned hardly cuz there was way too much fuel due to high MAP.





Anyway here's my troubleshooting plan:


- Remove cam cover to press every valve lifter with a screwdriver to see if they have the same tension. Maybe a spring broke or some other part.
- Try to turn the engine by hand and if it works see if it blocks somewhere, if it doesn't, find TDC and ensure everything is still aligned normally.
- If all is right move to short block, remove oil filter, pour oil into a paper screen and see if any metal parts are accumulating on the paper.
- If all is good there too, move to gearbox, around the flywheel and clutch. Not there yet.
- If all is goof on gearbox, go back to head and remove many parts to look into the manifold and they remove the head altogether.


Looks like a lot of fun, damn it.

[Frank818]

Got it!!

Found the problem. Something I've never heard of before!

109723

A cam gear slipping sideways.
It did ground a bit of soft alu from the right side cover, the chain was grounding on it, I found a bit of metal, but just 3 or 4 and looking with a light I couldn't find more.
Still I need to remove everything on that side, which means draining the coolant again. I think this will be my 10th time.

Now what collateral damages did this do? If the gear also slipped around the shaft, then my valve timing is wrong I could have a bent valve too.


There goes my summer for sure. I have so much frustration inside it is impossible to nail down a value on any human scale.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Frank, sorry to hear about your troubles.
Is it a bolt that holds the sprocket on the cam shaft?
If the keyway is still aligned, I would just tighten it.
If not aligned, then align it, tighten, and then a quick compression test to figure out if you have internal damage.

Good luck, you deserve some.
Bob

[Frank818]

Yes that's my plan, Bob!
Tnx for reminding me it's called a sprocket, I had completely forgot.

I plan on doing exactly what you suggest, with an added security, which is hand turning the engine before compression test it. Also maybe I'll try a leak-down instead of compression, just so that I won't need to crank it in case something goes wrong. But either will be done.

Not concerned about potential small metal debris or dust that would have fallen down the chain path at the bottom of the lower chain side cover? There are 2 covers, an upper one and lower one. The latter will be a lot more work to remove.

[AZPete]

Bob said it perfectly with, "good luck, you deserve some." I'm keeping my fingers crossed, also.

[aquillen]

I like your attitude - fuss, crab, cuss maybe, stew and yet - dig in and find it - not just walk away. I'm the same way.

[Frank818]

Arf, getting closer to valve issues though...

The sprocket did jump its keyway and the key on the sprocket has been slightly damaged, although it still locks in place when I put it on the cam, I think I'll keep that sprocket.

109771


As for the valves, my mech told me if I push on the lifters with a screwdriver and none move, it means the valves have tension on them and have not bent. He said bent valves lose tension and are easy to push down. Not sure if that's true, but no lifters is moving by a micro-millimiter!

However, my cams are NOT aligned. See the notch on the ends of both cams? They must be in the same direction and here they are 90-deg apart.

109772

However again, when I look at the valves of Cyl1 and its paired cylinder, Cyl6, I can barely see a difference in the angle of the lobes, so maybe they are not aligned but not enough to have caused the valves from hitting the pistons. Remember I have 7.6CR so maybe that gives more clearance under the head, I have no idea.

My next step is finding how to realign this thing... What happens if I turn the de-aligned cam, will the valves hit the pistons... then what happens if I turn the engine, which in turn turns the correctly aligned cam, will pistons hit valves on the de-aligned cam... I'll try TheHumbleMechanic or some other youtube.

I have one cam aligned already, do I really need to be at TDC to align the 2nd cam?
Judging by the lifters, both valves are closed on Cyl1.


Anyway my problem is not how to find TDC, it's what happens if I turn either the de-aligned cam or the engine/aligned cam.

[Frank818]

I have a question for the cam installer guys.

I was able to reinstall the sprocket, quite a complicated task cuz the intermediate shaft was already in place which caused the chain to be to tight.

In the process of reinstalling for a reason I don't understand the correctly aligned sprocket ended up with the chain being fitted 2 teeth tighter. The sprocket did NOT move. As you can see the chain moved 2 teeth to the left while I was playing to have some slack for the other sprocket:

109810

The red marks are photoshoped but behind are marks I made with a cutting knife on the metal so I could follow what's going on.


What's the impact of this movement on the chain?
Will the right yellow skate (tensioner guide) be too tight, as it removed slack from the right side of the chain, and I won't be able to torque the tensioner?
Will it cause the engine being out of timing on that right sprocket?


They say the slack should be all on the tensioner's side. At the moment my slack is all on the other side and I am unable to jump the chain back where it was and have the slack on the tensioner's side.

The intermediate shaft did not move as the engine did not turn.

[aquillen]

Frank, I'm in no way savvy on your engine, nor positioned to argue with your mechanic 'cause of that. I had a 427 in a '69 vette that jumped time once, several degrees. Nothing got bent, so you never know...

BUT some thoughts considering your pictures vs. valve/piston clearance extrapolated into typical engines. My understanding is a lot of engines do have very close tolerance or rather "little room for error" if they rotate when out of time - they will very likely collide some valve-piston. Given your aggravations to date, taking a chance here doesn't seem what you want to do as ol' man Murph has not been kind to you so far.

Looking at - your shot where you circled the two ends of the the camshafts looks to me like a pretty good difference in degrees of rotation, given they are to be setup in line during timing the assembly. Then there is your picture showing the sprocket nearly off of the camshaft and it shows a galled metal area on the shaft, I'd think that happened when the sprocket turned in relation to the shaft. That doesn't show enough other than to guess but looks also like quite a few degrees of rotation between the two "happened". (i.e. they correlate regarding slipped timing).

A scenario would have been: you heard the clicking while the sprocket was loose but still keyed - not off the end yet. Once off the end - possibly right when you shut it down, it tipped off. Now trying to rotate the engine you really are in "contact" territory - so it wouldn't want to rotate with just starter effort as a collision jammed things. Whether a valve gets bent in this scenario likely depends on starter torque... just a guess/possible on my part.

To understand your configuration I dug around on the 'net. Have you seen this particular video on timing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v94BUU8BrQE

Got me oriented on your motor at least.

To sum it up: Pushing on the lifters to see if they move may be valid but my gut feeling is unsettled with that. Wondering if you can get a scope down the spark holes and check piston tops? Even that is iffy if you come up with no evidence. When you get it back together how about manually rolling each cylinder to TDC on compression (then lock the crank so it doesn't roll next) and rig up a "reverse compression test/leakdown" - send 100psi down the spark hole, seal the air supply off and see if each cyl holds pressure reasonably - compare all cylinders. A bent valve should not hold beans. Then finally compression test rolling - but I would not trust rolling that motor at starter speed again until I was feeling really confident about it's condition now.

And of course you know this - why did that sprocket bolt come off - phone ring while you were torqueing? I'd have to check them all. Do you paint your completed torque parts (you'll see marks on my chassis and other parts where that needs to be assured - I can never remember 5 minutes after I do something like that so I mark 'em).

Good luck as always.

[aquillen]

Regarding your fuel pressure and manifold pressure. Rotating with the timing off likely pressurized the manifold, which you alluded to back in your comment (ie. the valves) about that odd pressure. The fuel pressure is no doubt regulated via reference to the manifold pressure, which I think is just about universal with FI, so it went up only because of that.

[Frank818]

Yes I did view that video about 100 times. The problem is he is not installing while in the same situation I am.

He installs from scratch, so the intermediate shaft sprocket is fitted last.
Mine is already fitted and on the correct chain tooth. Then when I try to put the left sprocket back on, there is so much tension I cannot reach the cam at a straight angle to slide the sprocket in.

I was not able to find anything that could guide me from that situation onwards.

If I need to remove the intermediate sprocket, I have to remove the gearbox.

There must be a way to fit that left sprocket back on with chain slack on the right side. In the meantime I realigned the faulty cam by turning it forward to catch up its 90-deg lag, so both cams' end grooves are almost the same angle. Can't get any better without being at TDC which I can't right now. Even if I am, I am unable to reinstall the left sprocket, so that's not any better.

[Frank818]

Think I found the way, althought very dangerous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqzLKqNwKww

See around 3mins-3m20sec.

I have to install the left sprocket first. Then I slide the right sprocket from below the chain. That will do.
BUT, when I remove the right sprocket I have to be very careful not to push the chain sideways on the lower intermidiate shaft sprocket! It may jam between the sprocket and side cover.
I think I'll wait Tuesday (Canada off tomorrow) and call my mech, ask him how he would do it to prevent that from happening. It's in this situation if I had someone to help me, that person could have lifted the chain to simulate the presence of the sprocket in order to keep tension on the intermediate sprocket, while I install the sprockets back.

[Frank818]

Art, I did not torque those cam bolts, my mech did the installation. He told me the bolt could loosen up if the engine gets too many hard jerk ups. Which it had. 3 or 4 times, until last drive I had a problem, around 2800rpm the engine was cutting off fuel and injecting and cutting, rapidly and very very harsh, the entire car was shaking. I had missed cam sensor triggers so the ECU cut fuel. I found the problem, it was ECU configuration related, but the car got badly shook up 3 or 4 times before. That could loosen up the bolt.

[aquillen]

You're way ahead of my thinking - glad of that. I wonder if your mechanic will suggest lifting/moving the cam itself (yikes?). No surprise you've worked youtube over for ideas. Love to come help but a long trip.

[Frank818]

Confirmed. 2019 is now my 3rd year in a row without being able to drive the car.

Bent exhaust valve on Cyl2 (95% leak). The others are perfect, although one has a 10% leak but anyway I need to remove the head! Which is very complicated task on this 818 without removing the engine.

I just hope the piston and head are not damaged. If one of them is, it's gonna be a costly repair!!


BTW the 2nd cam bolt was removable with 2 fingers without applying any torque! This one was about to come off as well.


Oh well, another hard hit to take.

[Jetfuel]

Frank, have you pulled the oil filter?
The reason I ask is because I see metal built up in the chain links and lots of sparkles in some of your photos in a close up.
You know where all of this leads to.
Hope I'm wrong

[Snail]

Subscribed to this thread; great build Frank.

[Frank818]

Frank, have you pulled the oil filter?
The reason I ask is because I see metal built up in the chain links and lots of sparkles in some of your photos in a close up.

Not yet, although I don't think it's worthy yet at the moment, given the fact I need to pull the head out and unless both the head and piston are ok, I won't be driving until next Spring, which will then require an oil change at that time and looking around for metal parts stick somewhere.

If I get super lucky and have no damage on both head and piston, then yes I'll remove the filter right away.

The metal parts come from the chain side cover which was eaten a little bit by the sharp pins of the chain links. It's very soft metal but it's metal! Didn't seem to bother my mechanic though, although he didn't see the pictures.
When I inspect the side cover, I don't really see that eaten up area, a groove somehwere. The evidence is more on the chain links than the cover. When I inspected the whole area (cams, sprockets, chain, area around chain, guides, etc.) I did not find metal parts anywhere other than the chain links.

[STiPWRD]

Frank, do you plan to address the cam bolts with some sort of locking mechanism (loctite?). That seems to be the root cause of the issue.

[Frank818]

Frank, do you plan to address the cam bolts with some sort of locking mechanism (loctite?). That seems to be the root cause of the issue.

Oh god damn yes! lol
Blue loctite.

If the problem was the bad ECU value making it miss the cam sensor trigger, which is fixed now, then those bolts should never come out especially with loctite.

[DSR-3]

>Blue loctite< No, use Red Loctite, or locking tabs, or safety wire. Blue is too wimpy.
Way back when- the first multi (4cyl) motorcycle engine I built was with the help of a known tuner. My first task was to "slot the cam sprockets". After learning to "degree the cams" and plot the profiles, etc. it was down to a good cleaning and red loctite to hold the screws with enough force to keep the sprockets from rotating. I was pretty surprised that that's all he used, and later found that it held tight until the end of the season/next rebuild. The next one I built and safety wired them (that lasted too).
You made a major find/fix, and once you get over this I hope it's time for some good luck for you. Thanks for posting your experiences, and keep on it!

[Jetfuel]

Frank, I understand your pain and I know you're discouraged after all the setbacks and not being able to drive your sweet ride.
Please don't wait to pull the filter, screen the oil from it through a coffee filter and with a flashlight see if it sparkles, cut the filter open with a box knife and look at the element, this simple test will determine a different course of action now and not in the back end.
About your sprocket, replace it, that gear sustained some serious corner loading not designed for or at least have it magnetic particle inspected to make sure no cracks are present.

[aquillen]

I'd go red loctite as well. You can get things apart using it - just take more effort. But it holds way better than blue, as designed. You'd think I sell the stuff as much as I like it. Used it on this and that in the nuclear Navy sub I was on (although specifically nuclear plant components we used whatever was spec'd no more/no less).

Serviced medical x-ray equipment of every type. Those CT scanners, nuclear imaging heads, tables you get tilted up and down on during barium exams, etc., are HEAVY. Lots of moving parts that like to work loose over time. Most of my partners just put the screws, nuts, whatever back on and tightened. I'd be in there a month later and something they did was coming apart. I Loctite pretty much everything I don't want to come back to. Keep primer and various grades on hand always, study the spec sheets and so on. Primer reduces strength some and is only needed on specific materials and if you don't have time to wait on it.

[Frank818]

>Blue loctite< No, use Red Loctite, or locking tabs, or safety wire. Blue is too wimpy.


I'd go red loctite as well.

I thought about red but was under the impression it could make things too hard to remove the next time. But I'm not reinstalling in the interest of the foreseeable future of removing that part again.
Will do red, then.



Frank, I understand your pain and I know you're discouraged after all the setbacks and not being able to drive your sweet ride.
Please don't wait to pull the filter, screen the oil from it through a coffee filter and with a flashlight see if it sparkles, cut the filter open with a box knife and look at the element, this simple test will determine a different course of action now and not in the back end.
About your sprocket, replace it, that gear sustained some serious corner loading not designed for or at least have it magnetic particle inspected to make sure no cracks are present.

Thought about those 2 things as well for the same reasons you mentioned, but remained undecided until now.
If I'm not the only one thinking about something, it means it might be a good thing to do, there are close to no collateral damages of pulling the trigger on the filter and sprocket! Besides I will receive the sprocket in the mail way before I will receive the new valve or get the head repaired if it's damaged.

According to my mech since the piston is forged it should not be damaged in a way to replace it. Let's hope.

[Jetfuel]

Glad to hear your thoughts.
Impatiently awaiting the results and hope the contact was minimal.....

[Frank818]

About buying a new sprocket, everywhere I looked it was a discontinued part! Mostly sold for 100 bucks.

Except at ECS Tuning where it's at 72 bucks... But only available to ship on Oct 4th! I'll see what to do, but if I'm lucky and there's no internal damage, I won't wait until Oct 4th, I will reuse my current sprocket, buy a new one and swap it later in the winter.

I found a place where it was listed at 25 bucks! Site seemed fishy. I ordered anyway, free shipping and discount of 10%. Too good to be true is fishy, right? It immediately froze my credit card, cuz I saw 2 payments going through, one of which got blocked by my CC company cuz they suspected the place to be a scam from China, and the first one passed, 2 bucks above the amount I should have paid. They told me if I get nothing within 30 days to call back and they will refund. Which I will.

However now I cannot buy anything with that card until I get my new card. Can't order a valve, or lifters for about 1 to 2 weeks. I use that card for everything I buy, groceries, shopping, car, etc.

Yeah maybe it's my fault on this one, but come on, gimme a break... lol

[STiPWRD]

I'd buy a new timing chain while your at it too. The one you have probably got stretched - you said the motor seized up, right?

[Frank818]

The motor didn't seize up, it was running "fine" considering the cam bad timing. I shut it down.

The motor is blocking when I try to manually rotate it fwd by hand. It stops. Then I rotate back, then fwd again stops, then back then fwd again stops, etc.

Changing the chain requires removing the engine and unbolting the gearbox. I'll think about it, at the moment I don't plan on doing so because the engine was still running at a decent rpm.


However I will change my lifters (tapets sort of), some look different on the top. I have found a set lightweight and DLC coated, this goes in the path of my goal when I rebuilt the engine, which is making it ligther on rotating parts and frictionless.

[DSR-3]

>when I try to manually rotate it fwd by hand. It stops.< This with everything installed and set correctly?
I don't have a good feel for how much room you have, or how your engine is installed, but I would seriously consider pulling it all to do the work. An investment of a day to pull and one to install you will have the best conditions to do the work, check things out, and get it right. There's not much I would do in my engine while in the car, it's too easy to pull it and avoid much access-grief.

[lakercr]

The motor didn't seize up, it was running "fine" considering the cam bad timing. I shut it down.

The motor is blocking when I try to manually rotate it fwd by hand. It stops. Then I rotate back, then fwd again stops, then back then fwd again stops, etc.

Changing the chain requires removing the engine and unbolting the gearbox. I'll think about it, at the moment I don't plan on doing so because the engine was still running at a decent rpm.


However I will change my lifters (tapets sort of), some look different on the top. I have found a set lightweight and DLC coated, this goes in the path of my goal when I rebuilt the engine, which is making it ligther on rotating parts and frictionless.

Are you sure your cams are still in time? Typically, and engine that stops rotating as you describe is having a valve meeting a piston. I'm not familiar with this engine specifically, but from the DOHC motors I've done (well over 100) the mechanical cam chain tensioners worked well in the direction of engine rotation, less so the other way. If it's a hydraulic tensioner, then this would be especially true. It doesn't take much for cams to be out (1-2 teeth) before you have a problem with an interference motor. I'd encourage you to double check this, and try to avoid rotating the crank opposite to its intended direction.

[Frank818]

>when I try to manually rotate it fwd by hand. It stops.< This with everything installed and set correctly?

No.
Cams were possibly out of timing cuz I've played with them and crank too much and lost my alignment points.
Anyway I cannot bring the engine to TDC, exhaust valve on Cyl2 is pushed down, with cams removed, and prevents the piston from moving up. Or, the lack of tension on the chain (cams removed) prevents the lower gear from rotating which stops the pistons there, but either way I have 1 valve that sits 5-6mm lower inside it's hole, that's NOT normal at all.



I don't have a good feel for how much room you have, or how your engine is installed, but I would seriously consider pulling it all to do the work.

125h to remove and reinstall engine/gearbox. 10 weeks. Excludes removing/fixing/reinstalling head, time to fix other things I will mess up (80% of the time it happens) and time to seal leaks I created (happens 80% of the time). If it leaks on the lower side cover, I have to remove engine and gearbox again to trial-and-error-fix-it.


As for timing chain, I'll measure the distance between links at various places along the chain, like on motorcycles, and see if it got stretched.



Are you sure your cams are still in time?

They were most probably not, which is why I removed both and now will remove head to check on that valve.

[Frank818]

Happy 4th to every US bud!

[Frank818]

Got some interesting updates.

Decided to wake up at 4 in order to give a blitz on that head before going to work and I finally took it off. Was pretty hard, I hope I didn't stretch anything around, wires or something. Will not be easy to put it back on but nothing's easy to service on that engine in that specific car.

When off, looks like a Porsche engine, flat and wide. loll


Definately a bent valve as you can see. The marks on other valves are possibly top of studs when I took the head off, they might have rubbed on the valves, there is no scratch or dent there after cleaning the valves.


11044811044911045011045111045211045311045411045511 0456110457



The head does not seem to be damaged, however I cannot yet remove the valve to make sure of that (don't have the tool). Either way I have to order a new valve, this week so I won't waste 1 week while I'm off next week in a motorcycle trip. Hence the blitz on removing the head now!




However, the piston's ceramic coating has been very slightly chipped. By rubbing on the chip I was able to get very tiny amounts of coating off of the piston.


That I am not sure what to do. Will it harm once engine runs? Should I buff it and make it smooth? Will explosions inside the cylinder take more material off with time?


I have no idea and that's a huge one cuz if I need to get a new piston, it's everything off again. At the moment I just swap valves, fix the head if damaged and I will run again in 2019. My mech said 1 day to fix this.


New pistons means I'm dead until late next Spring.


However again, my mech says it's not a problem. I also googled and saw worse pistons and people taking about worse situations and all was fine.




So will order a new valve and gaskets today. Let's put an end to those issues.

[Frank818]

Today is my birthday. Yesterday I finished fixing the bent valve late so today was my re-re-re-first start up since May after finish issues.

This is the valve.

111866

How did it go?

2 problems, could not drive. Did you guys really think I would get lucky cuz it's my birthday...

1- My rad fan was not working, engine almost overheated. I have no idea what went wrong, I put 12v directly on the fan motor and it's not spinning. I played more with it, trying to open it, it's sealed. I tried again 12v and oh it works! I tried from my ECU, where it's controlled from, and it works again. WTF? God damn Chinese fan from FrozenBoost.

2- I did a mistake and my cam timing is wrong! This caused the engine to knock at idle and a bunch of other things you can read here:


http://youtu.be/OKAxcayH9eY


I followed the HumbleMechanic's procedure at 2mins19s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v94BUU8BrQE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v94BUU8BrQE)

and it's either wrong or I went back too far on the crank. My own mechanic told me he ALWAYS keeps it straight up at TDC and does not turn the crank backwards.


When I checked my diag before firing up the engine, I noticed my cam sensor was now at 52-deg instead of 54, 2-deg earlier. Interesting cuz in order to fix my knocking I had to back off 2-deg, but I backed off 3 to make sure.

This is how it sounded afterwards, still rough so I knew something else was wrong.

https://youtu.be/pvYtKQzp298

I was not able to install the chain correctly on the sprockets without playing a little bit with the cams, otherwise the chain has tension on the wrong end. I don't understand how that works and how to make it right. I can never make it right and this pisses off.

I got to remove again the side cover and now I have to find a way to unbolt cam bolts that have RED LOCTITE on them. It's difficult to bolt them cuz the hexagon on the cam is far away from the bolt, so my arms are making a V shape and I loose a lot of strength with that.

I'm thinking of using a short shot of impact gun on the cam bolts, but I think that's pretty bad.

Next time I'm using blue loctite if I have problems removing them with red.



Check out the misalignment on the cam. However the long cam should be off 2-deg cuz it's the one with the sensor, not the short one that is way off. There's no way I can make the long cam sit 2-degs less, a sprocket tooth is more than that. I don't know how this will turn out but I have first to find a way to install that damn chain with the slack on the tensioner side and not the opposite side, all that while the cams are straight horizontal.

111867



In a nutshell, I am really an incompetent. For the past 2 years, all the car issues I've had are due to mistakes I made. So I'm wasting my time working on it 5-6-7 times and I still make mistakes. Such a damn incompetent.

[metros]

But think of all you've learned and become better at! I've made plenty of my own mistakes while building. Mistakes that have resulted in considerable spending to re-do parts that I trimmed too much or re-powder coating, etc. All of those mistakes have resulted in some lesson. If you don't acknowledge that then it was a waste of time. If you can realize you're better now than you were before, you've gained something. Not always easy to keep in focus during moments of frustration.

Keep at it.

[Brd.Prey]

Heat up the bolt, Red Loctite lets loose over 300 degrees unless it is high temp red which is over 500 degrees

[Frank818]

But think of all you've learned and become better at! I've made plenty of my own mistakes while building. Mistakes that have resulted in considerable spending to re-do parts that I trimmed too much or re-powder coating, etc. All of those mistakes have resulted in some lesson. If you don't acknowledge that then it was a waste of time. If you can realize you're better now than you were before, you've gained something. Not always easy to keep in focus during moments of frustration.

Keep at it.

Good point. I don't want to learn those things now in the past 2 years but that's how it works.



In the meantime I was able to remove the cam bolts, one was quite hard, the other very very hard. I feared breaking something off but I think I'm ok. Next time blue loctite.

I may have found part of my problem but have no clue yet how to fix. At TDC and with the cam lock tool on, I see a few degrees off between the cams, judging by the sprockets' notches, if that is precise.

111902111903111904

This difference prevents me from fitting one sprocket at the right tooth, by 1mm or less. Apparently I should not move the cams to make this fit, cuz normally after timing I should rotate the crank and fit the lock tool again to ensure all is aligned. If I move the cam, the lock tool won't fit.

Should I really back off a little from TDC? I don't know.

Next step is to find a proper lock tool, as this one I have built myself, maybe it's not good and causes this misalignment.

[sgarrett]

It is all about the journey and what we learn along the way. If you don't tackle each challenge and try, then you haven't made yourself better. The things you are trying I haven't even considered attempting yet. It took me 6 months to put wires into the car the right way, taking the whole darn thing out five times. The reason I am making the rear firewall removable is because of the 10 times I had to drill out the rivets on the front firewall! And I truly think I had to lift the seats in and out of the car 200 times to get their mounting all corrected. I haven't even tried to start the darn thing yet.

Hang in there....

[Frank818]

After taking a step back, helped doing so by you guys as always, I found out exactly what was wrong. Yes I didn't really know 100% before.

I installed the cams super badly wrong, the short cam was one tooth off AND BOTH cams where installed 180-deg upside down!!!!

Now anyone learning on how TDC works, this is why I made that double mistake.
I thought what was defining TDC on firing stroke was when piston #1 was at top and cams where fitted properly and locked with cam tool. WRONG! It's not just the cams in relation with the crank, it's the crank in the relation with the intermediate gear in relation with the cams!

While reading through the Bentley manual I found out there's a notch on the intermediate gear and that notch should be seen WHILE crank markers are aligned. Like this:

111932

Well it was the other way around yesterday.
This means the engine was pumping air from the exhaust valve and pushing it through the intake valve? How's that possible and how can an engine run "that well" when the cams are fitted upside down? Anyway.

Now they fit almost perfect, maybe 2-deg difference between the 2 but that's well within the chain slack margin. I did not follow the HumbleMechanic's advice of backing off slightly the crank in order to fit the cams. They went down without hitting on anything.

111929111930111931

Also the cam tool fits even after one full cam rotation (2 crank rotations). This means tension is good and alignment is good. Yes the intermediate gear notch is still showing.

You can see above the cam tool I built, works better than the plastic one from VW. I used some louvers from VRaptor which I could not fit on one side of my rear quarter panel openings due to my air filter. The louvers where fitting almost perfect right off the bat, minimal mods applied. I then put silicone and glued the 2 louvers together, perfect thickness, sturdy enough.

Can't start the engine until a small window Thursday, but I'll crank it without fuel and watch my ECU diag, to make sure nothing else was wrong. Or to find out what else is wrong... ugh.

[aquillen]

That is a major relief I'm sure, heck I feel it here just following you.

By the way what did you think about disassembly on that red Loctite? I would not expect it to have been scary. Did you use same or go blue this time?

[Frank818]

Art, it is a relief as late last night I cranked it dry (no fuel and no plugs) and the oscilloscope showed 54-deg for cam position sensor, which is what it's supposed to be.
For some weird reasons, I am now quite confident all will be good next time I fire it up, which should be this afternoon if weather gives me a chance. I just fear that something will break while I drive on highway but I've got a long run to do before I drive on highway.

As for red loctite, one of the bolt was quite harder than the other. If both were like the easier one, I'd keep red. However on the short cam the bolt was really tight. Since I am doing this alone and due to the configuration of the cam vs bolt I have to have a V shape made with my arms while one arm keeps the cam from spinning and the other removes the bolt, all that while I am bent over the big rear quarter panel. This reduces quality strenght which makes it harder to stabilize the cam, I didn't want the cam to rotate and a valve hitting piston. Doing it with someone else I'd keep red on both bolts.

I put blue on, at the moment. Anyway I know I have to remove one cam already as I have to change 2 lifters which seem faulty, they lost part of their DLC coating and have a rougher surface (after 30mins of idling!). In 2-3 weeks. Then I'll be able to compare blue vs red.

[Frank818]

Fired that weird engine up.

Good news and again bad news.

Good news is the cam timing is spot on.

Quickly forgot about that success and moved on the next bad news. After about 7mins when the engine got up to 80C which is normal operation, oil pressure triggered my ECU's low warning alarm. 40sec later the car was in the garage and shut off.

After reading on that, normally I should have 20psi at idle at the minimum. I was under 5. This happened too when I had my cams 180-deg out of phase, I even had 0psi on one gauge, however I believe under a certain small number it's less accurate. I have 2 oil pressure gauges, one for ECU and one for dash. They are of a completely different design and both were showing alarming results. They are located on the oil filter housing.

My guess is that when I removed the head I flushed all oil inside it and I changed the filter too, filled up to 75%. Maybe I didn't put enough oil back in the engine after that.
It's also possible my OEM dipstick is not very accurate due to the engine being installed at a slightly different angle than OEM.
In the last minute of running I was hearing the lifters louder than usual and more than at cold start. This makes me think it was oil starving. Or there is air in the oil and I would need to flush and replace.

I put more in now, will probably add even more tonight. Hopefully weather will allow me to re-start tomorrow and hopefully the oil level was the problem. Oil pump was new and did work well before the timing issue.

At cold start I also have a low level, 54psi, should be around 80-90.


Again, if it's oil level, it would be my mistake.
What happens if I put too much oil in the engine? I'll google that.

[DSR-3]

Pull the plugs and crank it until you get reasonable pressure. Until that happens I would not light it. Is it a stock oiling system, or have you added remote filter, cooler, etc? If not stock, maybe some priming and filling of lines/components is needed. I can't envision how cam phasing etc. can affect oil pressure or delivery- though I know nothing about that funky engine of yours...
Good luck!

[Frank818]

Pull the plugs and crank it until you get reasonable pressure. Until that happens I would not light it. Is it a stock oiling system, or have you added remote filter, cooler, etc? If not stock, maybe some priming and filling of lines/components is needed. I can't envision how cam phasing etc. can affect oil pressure or delivery- though I know nothing about that funky engine of yours...
Good luck!

Couldn't wait tomorrow so I started the engine in my garage with door open while you posted. Bad for lungs but hey, gotta die for that car, right.

I cranked it without fuel and fire prior to that, however I had the plugs in. Should I really get them out?

I wasn't able to get pressure over 5psi white cranking dry. Or was it 10psi, can't recall... however those numbers are too low.
Still fired it up afterwards and same problem, around 65C pressure was at 8psi around 900-1000rpm. Shut off.

I put even more oil in it. Now I started to see a clean oil line pattern on the dipstick. It's at the maximum level right now, on the gauge.


Not stock. I have a low profile oil pan, a VR6 R32 pump which has a lower profile in order to fit in the pan, I have a non-stock filter housing, a non-stock sandwich plate (never had one OEM) to divert to a non-stock oil cooler (never had one OEM). All those parts were on the car last time the oil pressure was right.
I already had filled the cooler and lines this Spring.
I did not have that low pressure prior to my bent valve, so I was able to idle hours and drive 11km. Now after 5-6mins of idling I get a warning light and I See it coming way before that.


So something changed SINCE my bent valve.

I'll see tomorrow if adding more oil over the more oil of tonight did the trick.
If not, I guess flushing oil and then removing oil pump to check whatever, I don't know.

[aquillen]

Just a wild shot, drain some of it and see if it seems about right for viscosity. Gremlins managed to get fuel into it somehow??? Other than mechanical flow issues viscosity thinned out would be another guess. No clue how that would happen but until you find the problem who knows.

[Jetfuel]

Frank, did you find anything in the oil filter or in the drained oil?
That system was contaminated for what I could see in your pictures ( very fine grit/ flakes) so it could be a blocked sending unit opening.
It could be a missing plug of the oil system passages in the new components.
Pressure is restriction to flow and it seems to me that you have no restriction to it, if the g-rotors or the housing of the pump were scored from passing metal it will show some low pressure but not of the values you're seeing
A good working pump even with low supply will foam the oil as it cavitates and make the indication "jerky" and not a steady state.

[STiPWRD]

I cranked it without fuel and fire prior to that, however I had the plugs in. Should I really get them out?
Yes, most definitely. Keeping the plugs in means you are compressing the air in the cylinders while cranking, which puts a load on your bearings. Obviously, this is fine if you're getting good oil pressure but if not, you're going to be putting wear on the bearings.

[Frank818]

So now I have a fuel problem.
I'll answer some posts before.



Frank, did you find anything in the oil filter or in the drained oil?
That system was contaminated for what I could see in your pictures ( very fine grit/ flakes) so it could be a blocked sending unit opening.
It could be a missing plug of the oil system passages in the new components.
Pressure is restriction to flow and it seems to me that you have no restriction to it, if the g-rotors or the housing of the pump were scored from passing metal it will show some low pressure but not of the values you're seeing
A good working pump even with low supply will foam the oil as it cavitates and make the indication "jerky" and not a steady state.

I did not find anything in the oil, but I think I'll order 8-9 quarts again and put new oil in. I checked the Bentley manual and surprisingly I am still within specs! The VW low pressure warning sensor triggers at 0.3bar and when hot I see 0.35-0.4bar, it does not go under that at hot idle.
Then Bentley says at steady 2000rpm I have to have 29psi or more. Mine varied between 25 ans 35psi, depending under load or no load and some other variables.

Besides I'm using an SAE30 oil (no first number), the Amsoil Break-in oil, which they claim reduces friction. I think it's thinner too.

That being said I may have something in the oil or in the pump as well. Complete draining should be done I believe.



Yes, most definitely. Keeping the plugs in means you are compressing the air in the cylinders while cranking, which puts a load on your bearings. Obviously, this is fine if you're getting good oil pressure but if not, you're going to be putting wear on the bearings.

That's exactly what I read this morning and I did removed before cranking.



I decided to run the engine anyway since according to VW specs I was ok, although on the very low end.
After 2 runs around the parking lot I decided to take the public road that connects one end of the parking to the other by a different entrance.
When I came back I stopped in front of my garage as I always do, just in case.

The car died while stopping. Couldn't be restarted.
No leaks at all. No smell, temps seemed fine. Then fuel pressure when the pump pressurizes the rail at the very moment I turn on the ECU, showed 11psi. Should be 60. When cranking, 10-15psi. I have no fuel pressure.

Didn't see that one coming. I'll troubleshoot the pump but first I'll add some fuel in the tank, just in case. I had something like over 20 litres (5 gallons or something) in May, maybe all the idling burnt all the fuel and without any warning the pump cannot suck any more in. If that's the case, then it's scary cuz it's impossible to see it coming looking at the fuel gauge.
The pump is a real AEM real pump, not a Chinese knock-off.

Imagine if that would have happened at the stop sign on the road just before I left turn to enter the parking lot 50ft later. Or worse, somewhere else on the roads.

This is exactly why I am absolutely totally scared to drive this car on public roads. There's always something breaking within 30mins and it happens suddenly without the possibility to come back in my garage. It is also very dangerous cuz what if it stops on the roads and causes an accident.

This is my 6th issue since May in 6 driving attempts. I bet it's my mistake again, let's hope so could be easier to fix.

[Frank818]

Didn't put quite my finger in the fuel pressure yet but it is between the ECU and the pump. Either electrical or mechanical (pump). The pump does not prime at all, does not make noise at all, it's dead. The 10psi was the pressure left in the FPR it has now gone down at 8 and probbly less by now.

I'm removing the rear FW and will take a look. Let's have fun working on that issue, now.
Honestly guys I don't see how I will ever be able to gain confidence on this car. Anything can break at any moment without any warning. Scary. I've got the scariest car in the world for sure. It's worth a milion bucks, then!

[Ajzride]

Didn't put quite my finger in the fuel pressure yet but it is between the ECU and the pump. Either electrical or mechanical (pump). The pump does not prime at all, does not make noise at all, it's dead. The 10psi was the pressure left in the FPR it has now gone down at 8 and probbly less by now.

I'm removing the rear FW and will take a look. Let's have fun working on that issue, now.
Honestly guys I don't see how I will ever be able to gain confidence on this car. Anything can break at any moment without any warning. Scary. I've got the scariest car in the world for sure. It's worth a milion bucks, then!

It's all about building character Frank. You'll be qualified to go toe to toe with John Wayne by time this project is over.

[Jetfuel]

Frank....don’t be pulling an Administrator here.....check fuse and/or relay

[Frank818]

AN FFR PART FAILED!

Thank god it's not my mistake for once! :)

Yes Jet, I did check fuse and even powering pump directly at the connector on the fuel tank.
No result.

Then I removed the pump.

I unplugged the connector at the pump at the bottom and I had a 100% resistance on the ground, between the gold pin and connector. This is why I don't get power to the pump. But then where?

I then went up the ground line until I found that the gold pin is disconnected from its ring terminal right underneath. It's part of the plug embedded within the part. Wow how possible?

Who else has got this failing?

What's the FFR part number now on that whole fuel pump holder, maybe they perfected the design. If I order a new one and it's the same design, it may fail again. And it ain't funny!


112130112131

It looks as if the ground pin has overheated as the plastic surrounding the pin seemed to have melted. But maybe it was like this from the start and it's normal.


This means I can't start up for quite some time, now.

[Hobby Racer]

AN FFR PART FAILED!


Well, not quite. If that's the donor fuel pump and bracket, it's a Subaru part!

[Frank818]

Not from donor at all, it's the aluminum fuel pump holder with embedded connector that comes with the kit, or at least used to come back for chassis #181 and prior. After 181 I don't know.

[Frank818]

It's this part, the fuel mounting bracket. Taken from FFR's manual. Gotta find part number on this.

112132

[Frank818]

80280 - EFI FUEL PICK-UP

I think that's the one. What did you guys identify that part for from your POL?

[Hobby Racer]

Yeah, that does not come with kit any longer. The newer ones use all donor bits.

[Frank818]

What parts are used? Ideally with part #. Maybe I can find them and use those, assuming the hole on the new tank is the same as the one on the old tank and that the way the parts are secured in place is the same.

[Hobby Racer]

What parts are used? Ideally with part #. Maybe I can find them and use those, assuming the hole on the new tank is the same as the one on the old tank and that the way the parts are secured in place is the same.112140

Main fuel pump
112142

Sub unit (only needed to run the factory fuel gauge in the dash).
112141

[Frank818]

So the tank hole where the pump drops into is an oval shape?

Anyway got a picture of the fuel tank with that pump hole?

[Hobby Racer]

Yes the oval is the fuel pump unit. Here are some pics from the newer manual.

112148 112149

[Frank818]

Thanks HobbyR! Definitely incompatible with the older style.

[Frank818]

I fixed it!
What a rubbish solution to a rubbish design.

What happened is that the gold pin which connects to the connector plug outside the tank and from your harness (the female plug from the harness connecting to the male FFR pick-up unit plug), that gold pin (male) dropped which made it disconnect from its ring terminal on the other end. Hard to explain. I think it dropped cuz the plastic melted around it. I have no idea why the plastic melted!! But when I looked at the height of both pins in the connector, the ground one was lower.

If I check resistance between the gold pin at the top outside the tank and its base inside the tank, I get almost 0 resistance. This means the pin in itself is fine.
If I check resistance between that gold pin's base inside the tank and its ring terminal surrounding it inside the tank, I get FULL resistance! WTF? The eye cannot see that the gold pin is not connected to the ring terminal, it's not touching but you can't see it, they are not crimped together anymore but you can't see it.

What I did is I took a pair of pliers and pulled on the gold pin from the outside. WTF it fixed it!
Then I soldered the base with its ring terminal.

112150

Who said I couldn't find great solutions after a big glass of wine + northern Quebec herbal gin + western Canada Whiskey?

Though, this problem is mind-boggling, this tiny thing failing as such.

How long will this last? I don't know. All I know is I am NOT buying a replacement. It may fail again.

Long term solution I will drill holes in the round plate and pass through wires, sealing the cracks around, and connect them on the wires outside, bypassing the connector entirely.

[aquillen]

I fixed it!
Then I soldered the base with its ring terminal.


Frank - two things - my wife said to tell you you have the patience of a saint, wading through issue after issue and keep coming back. Kudos from both of us there - don't quit trying.

Much as I hate to say it, the solder doesn't look very good - I would not trust it, unless the picture is misleading. Either work out your bypass wire you mention or get some liquid solder flux (electrical rosin type, not acid flux) and re-do it so it is good smooth, clean "flowed" solder. I'd be glad to send you the flux but I doubt you want to wait that long.... It really looks like you just needed more heat from a bigger solder iron to get the flow to happen quickly and across the part. Solder guns (if that is what you used) generally do not supply enough heat to get in and out quickly and get good solder flow on larger parts. Butane powered irons sometimes can be run hot enough, otherwise a larger solder iron can do this size of work better.

[aquillen]

PM sent -

[DSR-3]

Good job finding that one. Your car should be gremlin free soon!
'Fully agree with Art- don't chance that solder fix. Do it right and have confidence in the good solution. The fuel system is no place for shortcuts.

Back to the oiling issue; Yes, you need to pull the plugs. You will get higher RPM and oil pressure when it's right. Again, I would not light it until you get ~40PSI cranking w/o plugs. Just don't cook the starter, cycle it. Yes, check those lines to the cooler and filter, and consider bypassing the cooler to start. Order oil? Are you using something special? Nothing wrong with sorting these things out with cheap oil (Amazon?) and changing it later.

[Frank818]

Art, thanks to you and your wife, really appreciated! I hardly realize that even though I can't drive, I am still doing impressive things.
Also like you almost mentioned, so far I cannot remember one issue that I have fixed which occurred a 2nd time. This means if everything fails, I will fix everything and it will be bulletproof after that.

Totally agree, it is true the solder is flimsy. However, way ahead of ya now (it's a good thing to be ahead of the Electrical Master). I tried more heat on the 12v red wire but it started to melt the plastic underneath, I could hear crispy noises. It didn't matter much to me cuz I had many other plans in mind. I soldered the 12v as well, though flimsy too, then I poured epoxy resin to bond everything, but the resin is too liquid and almost none was left on the gold pins' bases.
Doesn't matter, next step I did something really cool, there is a 3rd tubing in that pick-up kit, which does nothing. It is opened in-tank and closed at the top of the round alu plate. I drilled a hole at the top and slid 2 wires inside the tubing and down to the pump connector.

I then piggy-backed on the wires, secured with fuel resistant tape, put some fuel resistant Permatex sealant inside the tubing at the bottom (need to do a better job) and also at the top outside the tank. Next is I will use some JB Weld hard epoxy to seal even more those 2 holes each side of the tubing. At the top is the yellow connector from Subaru donor used for airbags. And finally I will use that JB Weld to bond the gold pins over my solders (solderings? This ain't the army here, no solders). Et voilà!

I now have a failsafe wiring in case something goes wrong again with FFR's connector.

112156112157112158112159


Like DSR mentioned, no shortcuts for fueling stuff.

Speaking of which, there really had an overheat in there! Not only the gold pin melted the plastic around as you can see in yesterday's pic, but it also melted the red plug a little bit. The gold pin collapsed a micro-millimeter down and it disconnected with its ring terminal.
What caused this overheat? Loose connection? This plug clicks in pretty hard and solid in its connector, I cannot envision how the ground got loose. Anyway buying a new part from FFR won't help, I needed to make it better.

112160



DSR, about oil, when cranking without plugs for 8-10sec I get 7psi and can't go over it. WAY FAR from 40.
I will buy new quarts of Amsoil break-in oil, that's the one I got now, special oil for break-in.

https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/motor-oil/racing/break-in-oil-(sae-30)

The oil cooler is bypassed all the time until oil temps reach 80C. So far I think I've reached that once in the past 3 months, but not recently.

[aquillen]

Most likely the heat issue started at the crimped ring to the gold pin not being a solid connection. Best guess.

Your wiring solution via the spare pipe is the sort of thing I would do too, nothing to pick at there.

[lance corsi]

I once had an oil filter(Fram) that wouldn’t pass oil. I’d check that too, as stupid as it sounds. Once-in-a-lifetime....so far.

[Frank818]

I once had an oil filter(Fram) that wouldn’t pass oil. I’d check that too, as stupid as it sounds. Once-in-a-lifetime....so far.

Lance, I love you too!

Although the filter in ITSELF is not the issue as I changed it while I put my cams in the right way and nothing changed for the pressure, the filter TYPE I am newly using since the engine rebuild may well likely be the issue!

I always used standard BOSCH 3510 filters. I now changed to the D3510 99.9% dirt filtering Bosch filter, cuz I wanted to trap more metal parts from the engine break-in. I bought quite a few of them, not just one or 2!


HOWEVER, my oil filter housing works this way:

Our oil filter housing has two clean oil ports (1/8”ntp). To feed your turbo with fresh filtered oil and get proper oil pressure sample after the oil filter. The OEM oil filter housing has three ports for sensors on top. All of these ports are unfiltered oil from pan and are before the filter.


This means the oil passes through the now restrictive filter before it hits the pressure sensors! If the filter traps oil and restrictis it, then less is available for sensors and pressure drops! Simple.
The housing also has an anti-drainback valve to keep the filter filled at all times but that has nothing to do here.

I will revert back to OEM specs filter and try that out hopefully tonight or tomorrow night. Damn I can't wait! But I have to. :(

[DSR-3]

Is there any chance that you have the filter I/O plumbed backwards? No filter should have that much pressure drop across it, and not 1 vs another. You mentioned what sounds like a thermostat/diverter in the oil system- even though it should bypass the cooler I would consider bypassing it too. Keep at it, try to get oil in every part of the system "manually", and if you can, fill the filter before installing it. I've had dry-sump systems that were a ***** to bleed, and my water system was hard to bleed on this car for no obvious reason. Maybe consider connecting a line to one of the ports on the filter and cranking to see flow and maybe burp air.

[Frank818]

Boo-hoo! :( It's not the filter. But I still love you, Lance! :)

It's not coolant or other chemical in the oil. See way below for explanation.


This is my filter housing, same since 2011. The oil sensor port is the gold spot bottom left. Feeds a black plug on the left and the brass cylindrical sensor bottom left. The silver spot top left feeds the turbo.

112222



Is there any chance that you have the filter I/O plumbed backwards?

Not sure, I just screw the filter on the housing and that's it.

As for my oil cooler setup. Well the cooler core is physically disconnected, I plugged the inlet line with the outlet line in order to bypass the cooler for the break-in period, since the inlet and outlet are on top I have to remove it to drain oil and during break-in with more metal in oil I didn't want to keep dirty oil in the cooler and recirculate it in the engine, so it's fully disconnected (the core).

The sandwich setup is this one:

112223

There's the OEM cooler (uses coolant circulation to cool oil) mates to the block, then in front the sandwich with black plug thermostat for the 80C re-routing to the cooler on the right side. In front of the sandwich is the cover cap. It is OEM cap with a longer stem cuz it bolts both the sandwich and the OEM cooler together, like when you guys shoot supersonic .50 caliber through . I cannot remove the sandwich, the stem will leave a long empty space and oil will pour on the ground. I don't think I still have the parts to make it shorter and use the cap as OEM on the OEM cooler only.



Ok let's go back in time in the logs to see when this drop happened.
Oh crap, the ECU wasn't logging oil pressure until the engine rebuild.

AFTER ENGINE REBUILD
- April 22nd 2019: 0.35bar @800rpm engine hot
- April 22nd 2019: 4.7bar @1400rpm engine cold
- August 2019: 0.35bar @800rpm engine hot
- August 2019: 3.7bar @1400rpm engine cold but 10C warmer than in April, couldn't have the same engine temps in the summer

So it has nothing to do with bent valve and head removal.

BEFORE ENGINE REBUILD
- September 2019: 1.9bar @800rpm engine hot
- September 2019: 5.5bar @1400rpm engine cold like in August 2019

It's since the rebuild. Still, could be the oil itself. Maybe it's so thin the VR6 pump doesn't like it much.

What changed since the engine rebuild?
- Oil pan has a completely different design
- Oil pan was suggested to be installed using sealant like RVT type but my mech installed it with a gasket (makes the pan thicker)
- Oil pan was already thicker on the edge cuz my mechanic couldn't re-use the OEM pan bolts and had to use longer ones. Not sure if without the gasket he could have re-used OEM bolts
- Oil, using Amsoil SAE30 break-in oil for first time ever vs fully synthetic 5w-40 German Porsche oil
- Injectors
- Rods
- Rod bearings
- Crank bearings
- Crank (but still a VR6 AAA one)
- Crank pulley
- Bigger valves
- Head ports are not ported but were in my other head with smaller valves
- Pistons (OEM vs JE forged alu)
- Many gaskets
That's it!

Should I invest money in thicker natural oil just to give it a try?
Either way it's gonna be a waste of money, cuz I want to break-in with the Amsoil break-in oil. So either way I will drain the test oil and put back Amsoil.
What do I gain? Knowing if it's the oil or not. But since I will drive 1000 miles with the break-in oil, I will drain after anyway and then I could see if it's the oil or not.

Should I re-install my older oil pan?


Can JUST oil make a 22 to 27psi drop in pressure?

[lance corsi]

Frank, if You have to pull your engine, two things to check are (1) your oil pickup. Check to make sure it hasn’t cracked and is bolted tight to the block and (2) the oil pump, which is a sandwiched together assy, held together with several flat head bolts. If those bolts aren’t tight, it would render the pump unable to prime, and it would severely reduce oil pressure. My friend who rebuilt my engine has seen these work loose, but on higher mileage engines. He always loctites those bolts to insure this isn’t a problem. The symptoms sound eerily similar to those you described.
Anyway, I’m pulling for you to get this thing finished! I love you too!

[Frank818]

Regarding oil, I found a few interesting things.


First, this is the oil pan my previous vendor gave me:

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-iabed-industries-parts/aluminum-baffled-oil-pan/462-103-vr6-tab~/

After starring at the price for 10mins (I got this pan for... free), I read the description. Seems pretty interesting to prevent oil starvation but one spec I don't understand:




Sits Approx 25mm closer to the pan rail compared to MK4 R32 and MK3 12V VR6 oil pan.



What's a pan rail?

I don't think the pan is my issue.



Second, I found on other forums that I am not the only one with a fully newly rebuilt motor and instant low oil pressure. Happened to a couple of others, which probably rules out the possibility that all of us in that situation (newly rebuilt) reinstalled incorrectly the pump tube or other parts in there. Of course, there is no true conclusion or epilogue to their stories, but one guy said something that may generate a great discussion here:


Flow is KEY, not pressure.

The problem is, flow is MUCH harder to measure then pressure, same reason we use simple Boost gauges to measure inlet pressure to estimate inlet flow rate instead of using a MAF and displaying the exact quantity of air being ingested.

Same goes for oil pressure as with FI. More pressure isn't always better, it just means more restriction, which equals more work, which equals heat. Just as with FI again, you hit a point of diminishing returns, which on 99% of engines is 10PSI per 1000rpm of oil pressure. Above this is excess and just saps power and reduces engine protection.

The OP has similar pressures as I do, maybe a bit higher at idle than I do.
It seems as long as flow is fine and pressures are within specs, there is nothing to worry about. No one said why a rebuilt motor would drop pressures like this, but maybe it has something to do with less restrictions after the rebuild. Which may not be bad as long as flow is good enough.

It also seems the oil itself may play a role sometimes, the VR6 may prefer some oils over others, but probably not in the magnitude of 20psi delta.

Another guy has yet similar pressures as I do as various RPMs and he checked tolerances for his pump and pickup tube, all fine, pump not clogged as well.

It also seems a new pump does not change anything for those guys.

I think what I'll do is I'll remove the pan, check if everything is installed properly, check for debris in pump pickup and check everywhere if I see something strange. If all looks fine, I'll put the pan back and add new break-in oil that I have ordered today. However pressures are within specs and I really want to do my break-in asap, so I may keep that as is, pour new break-in oil in and run as long as I don't get less than 4.4psi, if it ever drops down there, which it never did so far.

[Frank818]

Ha, that's weird. My electrical fuel pump bypass didn't work.

When I try only the bypass the pump was super faint and didn't pump anything.
When I plug in both the bypass and normal FFR connector OR just the normal FFR connector, my 15amp fuse blows up in a split of a second.

Not sure what's wrong, I checked many times all the resistance along the wires and I get 12v on both connectors.

I start to wonder if the pump might have seized or something?

[aquillen]

Sure sounds like you crossed the wires - mixed + with - in there.

[Frank818]

Right on, Art. That's exactly what happened. However I cannot find where it's crossing. Maybe something went wrong inside the tubing or at the base of the gold pins where I have epoxy resin and marine epoxy on top.

I have received today, free of charge, a replacement mounting kit from FFR. I'll start all over, drill my hole, pass through some other wires, cuz I can't remove the current one I added due to the epoxy, and I'll see the result.

The pump works fine.
Funny cuz this is the 1st electrical important mistake I've done on the car and I've built all of the wires, I didn't reuse the subaru harness. I'm probably getting tired.

[Frank818]

I think my name should be "The Fixer". I'm not The Eraser, just The Fixer.


Fixed the fuel connector issue, however to make it simple I started all over and used the free FFR replacement I got. And I slightly upgraded it by using my marine epoxy which will prevent both pins from collapsing down and disconnecting with their respective ring terminal. Should an overheat situation happen again...

112604112605


Turned ECU on and I get 60psi every time.
That issue should be part of the past, now.


----

So back on that weird low oil pressure. Well after a lot of googling I found out this happened to quite a few other VR6 guys after a fresh rebuilt. And I ended up on a huge american V8 muscle forum (story doesn't tell which is huge, the V8 of the forum) and guess what, there are a ton of threads of people freaking out like me cuz they have a low oil pressure RIGHT after a fresh complete rebuilt.

Some of them actually did a mistake during the rebuild. But for others the story doesn't have a clear ending. However many, many guys married to V8 muscle engines for their entire life were stating the following:

- At least "some" pressure at 700-1000rpm idle (5psi is not to worry about)
- Rule of thumb 10psi increase per 1000rpm
- Pressure is not the true measurement for oil, oil flow is, but no one has got the gauge for this so every one reverts back to pressure
- High pressure could be caused by restriction which restricts the flow so you can actually have issues even though you have a nice acceptable high pressure that you're happy with the number
- No drop of pressure at moments it should be either stable or increase
- Consistency... stability... reproducibility. If you can get those 3 and you respect the above statements and you are within specs, then you should NOT worry about low oil pressure.

Turns out I respect all the above.
- I am within OEM specs (OEM does NOT specify anything at idle)
- I get about or more than 10psi increase per 1000rpm
- Every oil measurement I take if I were to scatter the plots on a graph I would always get the same readings (give or take only a few psis). Pressure varies with water temp and rpm. Pick one of each, I'll tell you the psi. Next day I'll do it again and I'll get the same psi. Consistency all across the board, this usually rules out blockage or not tightened parts in the circuit cuz usually blockage/not tightened parts move or vibrate which makes the pressure vary from time to time.



I wanted to remove the oil pan. However there are a couple of bolts for which I don't have the tool (yet), the engine mount 1.5" tubing is blocking some of the way and I find myself at an angle which may round off the bolts' heads so I didn't take the chance.

112606112607


I changed the oil, there was powdered metal on the magnetic oil drain plug and more on the rag, but that's normal for breaking in an engine. No very small, small, medium or big chunk of metal, just super very small powder.
I drained a lot of oil!

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I put back 7 quarts including the filter, excluding the oil cooler. About right as the pan takes 1 quart more than OEM.


Cranked the engine dry without plugs in the following sequence:

- 4 times 10sec each with 60sec rest in between
- 2 times 30sec each with 60sec rest in between

Charged the battery to make sure. Fired it up, within 2sec pressure rose and half a second later it was at a steady 60psi, 1400rpm (or 1300?) and 25C (77F for those down south).
I let it drop to 34psi at 58C (136F) at 900-1000rpm and shut off the engine, cuz I was in my garage not ready for a drive.

Engine felt and sounded very good and stable.
Tomorrow I'll give it another try on the road.


Like I said, I am The Fixer, but not The Driver, as I fix things but I don't drive. loll

[aquillen]

I say crank up BTO's "Roll On Down the Highway" when you pull out. Assuming a Québécois Frenchy is allowed to listen to Manitoban les Anglais music, that ought to do it.

[Frank818]

I say crank up BTO's "Roll On Down the Highway" when you pull out. Assuming a Québécois Frenchy is allowed to listen to Manitoban les Anglais music, that ought to do it.

You know about Manitoban music? lolll Despite what Trump says, QC people are allowed to do whatever they want. lolll

So yeah, I'll "Let It Ride". For 15mins I guess...
Just one thing: I don't have a sound system in the 818, but my phone could do it. :)

[Ajzride]

I don't know about your whack-o European engine, but in a Detroit V8 low oil pressure after rebuild is usually caused by slightly looser tolerances on the main bearings. This is good for power, as it allows for freer rotation, at the cost of life expectancy. I imagine that means engine is good for 150K vs 200K, which probably doesn't matter on a car like this.

[Frank818]

I don't know about your whack-o European engine, but in a Detroit V8 low oil pressure after rebuild is usually caused by slightly looser tolerances on the main bearings. This is good for power, as it allows for freer rotation, at the cost of life expectancy. I imagine that means engine is good for 150K vs 200K, which probably doesn't matter on a car like this.

Tnx for that! It explains a few comments I've read on various threads! The guys were saying "I checked my bearings tolerances and all is good". But they didn't say compared to what or why they are good.

It's well possible my mech installed with looser tolerances, he followed JE's specs for the pistons, in relation with my power goal, so maybe he did the same on the bearings, which would makes sense.
Also I use crank bearings and rod bearings that are calico coated to minimize friction, maybe that also has a slight impact.

Next time I talk to him I'll ask about my current tolerances vs OEM's.

In the meantime I'll stop worrying about this unless I get a warning light triggered.

[Frank818]

Very small improvements today.

Rode the car, only the parking lot still, and again no more than 15mins. But nothing broke!

I had to go back in the garage cuz once water temps reached 90+ (195F for the rich people) the engine started to misbehave. Idle was dropping and idle valve kicking in every 3sec to pump up the rpm and prevent stalling. My guess is it's an ECU setting, probably not enough fuel compensation when temps reach that threshold, but I got to analyze. This very thing prevented me from driving the car on the road, so it sucks!

Second thing is my fuel gauge was reading 102psi at idle (20hg vacuum)! The more water was hot, the more fuel gauge was higher. I have a POS Glowshift electrical gauge and a lot of people had issues with these, caused mostly by repeating water hammer effect every time the pump cranks up. Kills the sender. When pump cranks up and engine not running, I get 60psi and slowly going down, which is normal when pump goes on for 3sec and turns off after. So not sure how much it could be broken. I didn't notice any rich moments, in fact it was mostly the opposite. My FPR is 60psi. I know fuel works fine so if it's the sender I'll fix that later, no time now.

Third and last thing (not too bad, 3 things) is a lot more worrying. Since engine rebuild I have a strange metallic vibration or quick CLICK CLICK CLICK which starts about 2300-2400rpm and gets louder up to 2500-2800rpm. It is loud enough to overcome the engine sound by a good amount. Like people with their mufflers hanging and making a lot of noises, you know what I mean? It's very similar. Worries me cuz 1- I don't want it to be something internal and 2- I can't look at it while I drive as it seems to be only under load. Gotta check if water temps have an effect or not.

I hammered with fist in many places on the car, fixed all those I could hear any vibration noise. However I couldn't fix the exhaust. When I hammer the muffler or pipes I hear a click. If I shake the exhaust sideways I hear that click, but can't find where it comes from. Could be the WG's bellow. Maybe that's the noise I hear while driving, but it's a hard one to fix, don't think I can without cutting and re-welding some exhaust parts for which I don't have the welding gas anymore. Those 200 pounds tank are the only one with the right gas for SS, they suck for transit. Or I have to fix the muffler so that it would not move at all, which may cause some other issues over time.

It worries me cuz when something vibrates and makes noise, it can wear or break over time. And you know I don't want something to brake while I'm away from my garage.



It amazes me people like AZPete who built an 818C with full leather interior and they drive their car in a 10,000F desert and let it cook for hours in a 50,000F parking and still drive it 100s of miles every single day. How on earth did you manage to make your car so freakin reliable that easy?

[Frank818]

Through those issues still managed to take pix for the Calendar Man (Taz), as this was a promise I made 9-10months ago.

11270311270411270511270611270711270811270911271011 2711112712

[Frank818]

112713112714

[aquillen]

If I shake the exhaust sideways I hear that click, but can't find where it comes from.]

Get some iron wire or similar, some springs like used on screen door closures or even bungie cords. Rig up some tension - maybe 15-20# of force - on some parts of your exhaust. Then drive and see if you can kill the tick sound - if coming from exhaust and tension can remove the sound you may be able to work your way to the "spot".

[Frank818]

Get some iron wire or similar, some springs like used on screen door closures or even bungie cords. Rig up some tension - maybe 15-20# of force - on some parts of your exhaust. Then drive and see if you can kill the tick sound - if coming from exhaust and tension can remove the sound you may be able to work your way to the "spot".

Not bad, I'll find a way to keep tension in it. Many solutions exist for that.
Will test that tomorrow. I need to isolate its pattern (temps, rpms, load, etc.). But I'll put it under tension first anyway, if it fixes it then I know it's around there.

[AZPete]

OMG Frank: "90+ (195F for the rich people)" It's not that we're rich, but just that we can spell Fahrenheit. :)

"It amazes me people like AZPete who built an 818C with full leather interior and they drive their car in a 10,000F desert and let it cook for hours in a 50,000F parking and still drive it 100s of miles every single day. How on earth did you manage to make your car so freakin reliable that easy?"

You've got this wrong, Frank, I don't drive it 100s of miles every single day (160.93k for QCers), but only some days. And, some days are only 8,000F (4,426.6C for po' folk). And, I had some problems at first that I had to get solutions from the smart guys here. A big reason my 818 is reliable now is that it's fairly stock and not . . . as Ajzride called it . . . "a whack-o European engine".

I've got to go back and look at your photos more carefully. Very cool interior, diffuser, naca (?) ducts, flush perimeter lights, and what else? Oh, the #1 of 1 !! And, more . . .

[Frank818]

Making some progress! Woke up at 1h30AM to find some potential solutions. Not that I wanted to wake up, my body did.


First, sorry Pete, I guess I have dreamed about that in the past, was 100% sure you were daily driving it. I wasn't that far off on the temperature, though.



Second, I made progress on the current 2 misbehaviors:

- Very bad idle starting at 91C. Thanks to my ECU logs I was able to pinpoint the exact moment where it happened. When all 3 of my fans kick in, it draws 240watts and drops 0.4volt. This uses engine's power, just like an A/C does. The problem wasn't fuel, it was air. I simply needed to uplift my idle valve when the fans kick in (there's an option to control that), I had it set to 2% uplift but it requires 9% to keep rpm stable. This is solved.

- Metallic rattle. Happens also not under load but much more fainter. Under load it's louder. It seems to happen for about 500-800rpm in the 2300-3100 range, past that it's gone. Last night I thought it was engine knocking. So I throttled back ignition timing but that didn't seem to change much, so I'll continue looking around.


Today was the 2nd time in a row I was able to drive/idle the car in the parking without having anything breaking or leaking. This is a first for 2 years!

I also have to drain my 110 canadian bucks Break-in oil. :( It's not viscous enough (0w30), when oil temps reach a certain degree, the lifters start to make a lot of noise and I can't keep like that. 30mins of oil and down the drain it's going. I bought 10w40 mineral oil and will use that instead.
Actually I have a video of the lifters making noise, will post another time.

[Frank818]

And now I have made a big step back.

My magnetic oil drain plug is stuck in place, I tried all the possible adapters I have and it's now rounded off. I have to drill it out.
This means drilling out the plug without screwing up the threads, let oil drain with metal chunks from drilling, removing the pan, thoroughly cleaning the pan, ordering a new plug and reinstalling everything. :(
One really sad job.

[Frank818]

I removed the pan before drilling out the plug. Made an oil mess of course.

I cannot drill the plug, after 30mins of drilling with a 20volt drill I was not able to poke through. I have to bring the pan at the shop and use heavy tools. Probably Friday.


So I checked if the pump was clogged and there is absolutely nothing clogging the mesh.
I checked of the pick-up tube was tight and it is tight in place with silicone glue around. Nothing is moving in there and everything seems perfectly clean. Good news.

[DSR-3]

Or (maybe?) you can suck the oil out the dipstick and ignore the plug for another day...
*How about an Easy-out?

[codename Bil Doe]

Use a Dremel to cut two flats into the drain plug. This will allow you to use a box (open end) wrench or vice grips.

The other option is similar to how you can remove a torque-to-yield bolt, by cutting a flat into it and chiseling the bolt loose by tapping the edges with a hammer and screwdriver in the slot you cut.

[Frank818]

Tnx guys, there are some great ideas there indeed!


This was before I removed the pan and started drilling.

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It was my mistake again. Like I said a while back I am so tired now after 4800h+ and not driving that I make a lot of mistakes. I torqued this sucker at 30fr-lbs but should have been 15lbs. I use an old drain plug torque figure (37ft-lbs), but that was for a normal plug with a washer on a steel pan, not like this one with a rubber o-ring on an alu pan.


This is how clean and looking good internals are.

112771112772

[Frank818]

Funny I cannot paste my video, I can only paste the URL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqK12yff_dw

Description says it all.

[Frank818]

You guys are freakin awesome!

I dremeled a slot and hammered in it with a punch. Took a while to punch but it worked! Without breaking the USD$760 oil pan (that I got for free).

Ain't looking pretty.

112777



The punch took a severe hit but did its job.

112778112779


I'll clean the pan (powdered metal in it so this will allow me to fully clean it), reinstall it and wait for my Moroso 97006 oil drain plug from Amazon.ca.

[Frank818]

Hey DSR, how's your 3.0 running, btw?

[DSR-3]

Hey Frank, thanks for asking. I had been pondering a dedicated post on the H6 and it's virtues...
It's running great. I'm at ~1,200 trouble-free miles now. 2 weeks ago it passed the cooling stress test of sitting in traffic over highway 17 to the beach, in the heat. Never topped 215F on water and didn't leak a drop. This last weekend we took a 75 mile trip through the same Santa Cruz mountains but to the south- fresh asphalt, a beautiful drive, and perfect weather. Awesome day. I really do like this engine in this car. It will pull uphill from 30MPH in 4th, stuck behind a Prius, and still go around it without a downshift (or, downshift and blast-past!). It makes cruising so nice, though it does sound a bit tractorish at those loaded low RPM's, BUT 4k+ and it sounds like a Porsche with balls- and pulls hard!
I hope you get to enjoy your car soon too!
-Eric

[Frank818]

Hey Frank, thanks for asking. I had been pondering a dedicated post on the H6 and it's virtues...
It's running great. I'm at ~1,200 trouble-free miles now. 2 weeks ago it passed the cooling stress test of sitting in traffic over highway 17 to the beach, in the heat. Never topped 215F on water and didn't leak a drop. This last weekend we took a 75 mile trip through the same Santa Cruz mountains but to the south- fresh asphalt, a beautiful drive, and perfect weather. Awesome day. I really do like this engine in this car. It will pull uphill from 30MPH in 4th, stuck behind a Prius, and still go around it without a downshift (or, downshift and blast-past!). It makes cruising so nice, though it does sound a bit tractorish at those loaded low RPM's, BUT 4k+ and it sounds like a Porsche with balls- and pulls hard!
I hope you get to enjoy your car soon too!
-Eric

That is so awesome, I envy so much. First for living in a rain-free/cold weather-free place and second to drive trouble-free your 6cyl. There aren't many 6cyl in the 818!
The reason why yours is running so great is cuz it's not a wacko euro engine. And some merits for the builder. :)

[Hobby Racer]

Hey Frank, thanks for asking. I had been pondering a dedicated post on the H6 and it's virtues...
It's running great. I'm at ~1,200 trouble-free miles now. 2 weeks ago it passed the cooling stress test of sitting in traffic over highway 17 to the beach, in the heat. Never topped 215F on water and didn't leak a drop. This last weekend we took a 75 mile trip through the same Santa Cruz mountains but to the south- fresh asphalt, a beautiful drive, and perfect weather. Awesome day. I really do like this engine in this car. It will pull uphill from 30MPH in 4th, stuck behind a Prius, and still go around it without a downshift (or, downshift and blast-past!). It makes cruising so nice, though it does sound a bit tractorish at those loaded low RPM's, BUT 4k+ and it sounds like a Porsche with balls- and pulls hard!
I hope you get to enjoy your car soon too!
-Eric

I have to echo DSR's comments. The H6 is wonderful in the 818. I have 1,600 track miles on mine and its been fantastic! He is right about the sound though, sounds like a tractor below 4k, then sounds beautiful over that.

[DSR-3]

That is so awesome, I envy so much. First for living in a rain-free/cold weather-free place and second to drive trouble-free your 6cyl. There aren't many 6cyl in the 818!
The reason why yours is running so great is cuz it's not a wacko euro engine. And some merits for the builder. :)
Thanks Frank. We're not quite "rain free", and it does get a bit chilly at times, but I totally admire you guys who live, and work in your garage, in places where it's truly cold. Studs you are!
re. the H6, it's such a baby step compared to what you are doing, and it sucks to see you struggling after doing all the hard parts! Stick with it!

[aquillen]

re. the H6, it's such a baby step compared to what you are doing, and it sucks to see you struggling after doing all the hard parts! Stick with it!

I agree, Frank, keep at it. One by one you're getting there. I've still got a bunch of projects in the way of seeing how my H6 behaves, but you guys are all making me hot to get it rolling.

[Frank818]

How easy is the EZ30R to turbocharge?

I appreciate your support a lot guys. Makes quite a big difference.


I didn't get my oil pan plug before the w-e, which is going to be rain free. In meantime I cleaned up totally the pan, there was a lot of black powder at the bottom, actually I am happy I removed it just for that reason. Less so I didn't get the plug for the w-e. Damn Amazon.CA not as good as Amazon.COM.

112864


Will put 10w40 next week and later after more miles I'll go with Valvoline VR1 Racing 20w50 mineral. It has ZDDP (zinc) and my mech uses it in its modified 1970s Porsche. Wait, 1980s maybe. Older engines tend to prefer mineral oil, apparently. The VR6 started its life just a bit after synthetics were known and popular, maybe it runs better with mineral. But certainly better with thicker oil.

Also 3sec after my mech heard my video with tapping lifters, he told me I had one lifter with air in it. It's cool he said I had lifters with air in it, but he even got deeper in the statement by saying ONE lifter, not two or 3 or 5, just one.

Rev it to 2k for a while and it should disappear. If not, wind it up to higher rpms, blipping, and increase pressure will push oil in the lifter. Once you fix that, drive it. Don't drive it with that sound.

He really thinks the 20w50 zinc mineral VR1 oil would be the one to get.

So what I am doing of a bunch of 5w30 mineral, 5w40 synthetic and I think 5w30 synthetic as well... 2 boxes + 20L. Bought my oil too quickly I guess.

[flynntuna]

How easy is the EZ30R to turbocharge?

I appreciate your support a lot guys. Makes quite a big difference.


I didn't get my oil pan plug before the w-e, which is going to be rain free. In meantime I cleaned up totally the pan, there was a lot of black powder at the bottom, actually I am happy I removed it just for that reason. Less so I didn't get the plug for the w-e. Damn Amazon.CA not as good as Amazon.COM.

112864


Will put 10w40 next week and later after more miles I'll go with Valvoline VR1 Racing 20w50 mineral. It has ZDDP (zinc) and my mech uses it in its modified 1970s Porsche. Wait, 1980s maybe. Older engines tend to prefer mineral oil, apparently. The VR6 started its life just a bit after synthetics were known and popular, maybe it runs better with mineral. But certainly better with thicker oil.

Also 3sec after my mech heard my video with tapping lifters, he told me I had one lifter with air in it. It's cool he said I had lifters with air in it, but he even got deeper in the statement by saying ONE lifter, not two or 3 or 5, just one.

Rev it to 2k for a while and it should disappear. If not, wind it up to higher rpms, blipping, and increase pressure will push oil in the lifter. Once you fix that, drive it. Don't drive it with that sound.

He really thinks the 20w50 zinc mineral VR1 oil would be the one to get.

So what I am doing of a bunch of 5w30 mineral, 5w40 synthetic and I think 5w30 synthetic as well... 2 boxes + 20L. Bought my oil too quickly I guess.

Wayne turbocharged his personal 818s with an ez30.

[Frank818]

33mins of engine running today. 0 new failures, 0 old ones coming back.

Wait, does this mean the car is driveable?

I think it is!! Not too far at 1st, but I think next time I'm going out!

The 40-weight oil helped, I get maybe 2-3psi higher oil pressure but most of all no lifter tapping. And no oil sweating around my valve cover.

Although I know I have weak clamps on a big coolant hose at one location, it didn't leak and I will change for better clamps anyway.

I have not looked from under the car yet, but I see no droppings on the floor 6-8h after running it. Engine went up to 102C (216F down south) and I was able to maintain everything working well.
Fuel adjustments are getting better and engine never went close to stalling.

Drove a few 100s meters on the street about 5-6 times, no issues.

My only only only complaint is that vibration between 2300 and 3000. It really seems to be the exhaust but I haven't had a chance to secure-test it, as I was fixing all the other issues. Also, it's not easy to find a way to lock the exhaust in place, I cannot use zip ties, cannot use cord, I need something heat resistant.

Not sure how that vibration could make something fail over time. It sucks in a way cuz 2300-3000 is the exact RPM range I use at constant speed. Which makes me nervous to drive the car cuz I don't know if may fail or not. It's the only thing preventing me from a longer drive.


Good news is the turbo spools up early than when it was in the Corrado. Also its sound is a little different, it really sounds like those real turbos you hear on youtube and everywhere else. Which means it was not installed (restriction, etc.) properly in my Corrado and now it probably is. I think I hear the turbo as low as 2500rpm with little pressure on the pedal, about a good 300rpm earlier than on my Corrado. Not bad for a GT35 0.63AR on 2.9L. I think this thing could make HUGE power if I can make it reliable.

Engine really is a lot quicker than before the rebuild. Simple blips and first thing I know I hit 3.5krpm without hesitation.

Today was a super beautiful day, just like those Sept QC days AZPete loves. Couldn't run it twice though as I had to work for work (still am), that's another story.

We'll see what happens next time.

[Ajzride]

Use some metal wire (or mig wire) to secure the exhaust.

[AZPete]

I think I'm like lots of other guys here in looking forward to you reporting a successful drive. Yes, those Sept QC days are beautiful! Here in AZ it'll be 109 today (43 up north) but I'm headed out to a cooler place for Sept. Good luck, Frank.

[Jetfuel]

Yes, we're all looking forward for a full entry of a successful long drive were you just let it rip
Try some bailing wire, safety wire or even coat hangers to hold the exhaust

[metros]

That's got to be a sweet feeling to get a few trips in without any serious findings. Overdue for sure.

[Frank818]

Tried welding wire but that didn't work, there is constant tension and twist on the wire (from the reel) and I couldn't get tight it enough it was always loosening up.
But I found something in my scrap box, didn't have my phone to take a pic this morning before running to work but it worked. The exhaust is pushed slightly to the left to keep it in place and when I hammer on it with my fist it doesn't move anymore, nor does it make a metal CLING CLING.

Will test drive next time.

I found where that cling cling comes from and I am unhappy. It's the bellows of the WG dump tube. There must be something inside the bellow, probably the pipe when it got pushed inside and then welded, I guess when the bellow bends it hits on the pipe inside and makes that sound.

That would be a PITA to fix. Especially I don't weld SS anymore, would ask someone to do it while installed on the car to keep the right tension and clearance on the pipe.
Hopefully I can find another solution than cutting and rewelding.

Speaking of which, I have a bellow on the DP before the muffler front hanger.
I also have a bellow on the WG dump tube which merges to the exhaust pipe before the muffler front hanger.

The front hanger is fitted on a rubber mount which is secured to the frame.
I use a 2nd muffler hanger at the rear also on a rubber mount to the frame.

Does this mean I don't really need my pipe bellows?
In which case I could cut the WG tube bellow and weld a pipe in place. Still need to weld but it's a one-piece construction, wherease the bellow has the pipe slipping inside before welding.

Bummer I didn't take a pic, but will tonight.

[aquillen]

There is a good chance you free all the nuts and bolts along the whole path then start at one end and tighten the first item (and I mean all the way to the engine exhaust ports). Starting there first then each joint after you tighten it, you wiggle the rest of the parts to let them settle as much as they can as you go along. Might just go away. I suppose that won't be fun but no welding unless you're still clink-a-dinking.

[Frank818]

It could be an alignment issue, yes. I don't recall having that sound at all before rebuilding the engine and the exhaust was the exact same fitted the same way. I know the parts don't fit without some tension somewhere, I couldn't get all those custom parts to fit freely, some need to give away their freedom and work harder to make the entire exhaust fit. And the one working harder is the WG tube, it needs maybe 0.25in of curved (not just straight) extension in order to be bolted on the WG. Maybe fitting an alu spacer and 2 gaskets would be the solution.

This is how cramped up it is. One hanger on the right side can be seen.

113761


Second hanger here at the bottom.

113762


Culprit, most probably, this WG tube bellows.

113764



And this is how I pulled the entire exhaust to the left and keep it there so no movement would be possible. Forget the tie-wrap I changed that for a bolt this morning.

113765


This w-e I'll test that, will know very quickly the result. If the sound is gone or at least different, next step is to unbolt the WG tube and run the engine without any tube connected to it. I guess if I don't boost no gases would come out of the WG so I should be ok for a few vacuum pulls and idle blips.

If it is the WG bellows, I'll try to either fit a custom spacer or buy a lot of gaskets, pile them up and bolt them in place. A gasket is always a point of failure, though, the more I add, the more POFs I add.

Will also try re-bolting the exhaust differently to put tension elsewhere. However I found it this way I did it now is the best to have a perfectly centered tip. Other bolting ways led me to tip alignment issues, which stands out quite a lot even though it's a black tip surrounded by a black grill.

[aquillen]

You're hot on the trail at this point, solution no doubt will come.

[lance corsi]

Frank, I would think a pile of gaskets would burn up pretty quickly. Even aluminum in an exhaust stream would seem sketchy to me. New bellows aren’t too expensive. Good luck!

[Frank818]

I don't think a new bellow will do it, unless I change bellow style/design. That's an option!

Not sure actually if my gasket is alu or SS. They don't say. But it's made in USA so it has to be the best, right?

I might have an extra flange I could use that too.

Or maybe a pile of fiber gaskets? I found out those tend to burn a lot more than metal gaskets.

But before I get there I'll see if it's the bellow and if yes I'll try to angle it differently when bolting. As long as it doesn't put more tension elsewhere on the exhaust.

[Frank818]

TEST #1

Unsuccessful. Vibration still present, maybe just 10% better, difference so small I believe there is no difference.

What you think, should I disconnect my WG tube and have a small run WG directly to atmosphere? Anyway I don't boost more than 1-2psi, the spring opens up at 7-8psi when I don't control it so I guess the WG won't open at all.



Longest run ever!!!

However that was my longest run ever. I did around the block maybe 3 times and probably 4-5 times around the parking. Engine never went close to stalling, I do have some fuel spots way too rich along the band but none too lean in the area I drove in. No leak while engine running, but I suspect an oil leak around the head gasket hours after engine cools down, will see tonight.

The turbo hiss is AWESOME.
The engine is very very quick. I find myself at 3krpm in no time to think and that's at 40-50% throttle. I could feel the engine wanting to rev a lot higher but since I need to break it in I cap it off around 3500.
Did I say turbo hiss AWESOME?
It seems I have adjusted perfectly my throttle transients, when you cruise and then press on the throttle, fuelling adjustments in that scenario is critical, otherwise it bucks and obviously you loose all turbo spooling momentum in spirited driving.
Steering is super quick!
Car does not pull in any direction and I did not notice any bumpsteer, front and rear.
Front suspension stiff.
Exhaust gases don't really smell. Idling yes a bit due to wind, but while driving I did not notice fumes coming back in the cockpit. So far. My hair do smell a little after the ride but that's also cuz I get the car in the garage and stay there for a while. But few hours later hair don't smell.
Turbo hiss AWESOME. lol
You do have to step on the brakes if you want to stop, need time to get that in my head.
I need to upgrade my rad fan. I have one 14in fan, it's not powerful enough. I cannot let the engine idle for too long, it will get hotter faster than will it cool, which is not good. But as soon as I drive airflow seems fine and temps quickly go down.

Sure car is not Hindsight/AZPepete perfect, still need tuning + 1-2 sounds that I had fixed in the past are still there but only in very specific situations and barely noticeable. Should be ok on those though.

I think I need 20w50 oil. It will probably help a few things and maybe prevent that oil leak when metal parts are contracting and cooling down.


Tomorrow morning I'll do another test for that vibration, if it's ok to drive without the dump tube connected.


Turbo hiss is AWESOME. :D

[Frank818]

TEST #2

Utterly unsuccessful. I disconnected the dump tube from the WG, still connected to the exhaust cuz it's welded onto it. I believe the engine was sucking in air from the tube and going back in the engine. The car was stalling all the time after a few secs. It was running somewhat ok, not that good though, and then out of nowhere it was leaning out and shutting down. I put my hand on top of the tube and I could feel air, although I was unable to determine which direction it was travelling, but it didn't seem that hot.

Anyway I was still able to blip rpms in a moment where the engine finally settled and oh god that guy just passed by with his working red Ferrari, go to hell! So I was saying after it settled I bilpped it and I was able to hear the vibration the same way I use to when the WG is connected. Which is super barely, but I notice that same very very small vibration/sound.

I think it's not the exhaust. Either way I will put 3 gaskets sandwhiched together instead of one. 2 SS and 1 fiber. I have plenty of time to remove the 2 I added if that doesn't help in any way, cuz I cannot boost for quite some time still.


Now I have to look elsewhere. Maybe the rear of the gearbox rubs on the frame, I'll raise it 1/8 and see on my next test, next w-e I guess. :(
In the meantime I'm off at the local store to get some 20w-50 Zinc added conventional racing oil and change the oil again this week.

[Frank818]

TEST #3

Failed yet again.
This time I removed the rear diffuser, cuz hitting on it I could hear vibration on the frame.

Now I think the vibration sound gets louder when engine is hotter. Sounds like internal to me.

I'll try a few other parts around and if no success then I'll have to take it for examination by my mech, he might have an idea, but can't listen to the sound until I get there with the car. Can't get there yet cuz I was afraid that vibration could cause issues. Catch 22.

I now run 20w-50, will give it a try in a few days. I've got high hopes on that oil.

I think I could risk it and drive further next time.


EDIT: At 7AM this morning I decided to wake up everyone by testing out the car. Didn't want to wait for this w-e or late at night.
It was 8C (46F) outside with almost no sun yet on the car. At least I know it's very well driveable downtown at cold temps, which means I can extend the season in Nov. Good thing to know.

[Frank818]

I need to upgrade my rad cooling.

At the moment I have a 1800CFM 14" pull fan on the rad. Not sufficient to cool the VR6 at idle.
I have a HE in front of the rad, it's not fully sealed between the 2 rads.

Should I use dual fans pull-type on the rad or 1 pull on the rad and 1 push on the HE at the front?

[Ajzride]

2 Pull. Mixing a push and pull is very tricky, they can fight each other if not properly matched.

[aquillen]

From personal experience and many other comments posted, a very small amount of air interferes or completely stops coolant flow. Of course you can guess whether you have flow by how hot the pipes are getting in/out of the radiator.

And even a rather small air passage between the front and back of the radiator will allow a surprising amount of air to simply circulate. I looked through your posts about three pages back to see if you put a top block plate over the radiator under the hood. Did not see that. I suggest you try some cardboard blocking/packing just to see if you can get idle cooling working with what you have before changing fans. Minimize air recirc paths within reason.

[Frank818]

I thought so there was a catch about a pull and push fan on the same setup, even though they would be on each other side of the rad/HE. That's probably we don't really see that kind of setup!



top block plate over the radiator under the hood.

Isn't the hood blocking? I have 2 huge louvers in the hood to help air escape, would be counter-intuitive to me to block them off. Though I agree a lot of air does come out between the hood and windscreen.

The fact I don't use a shroud might also be a reason for hot idle.

[Jetfuel]

No shroud is a big issue .

[flynntuna]

I thought so there was a catch about a pull and push fan on the same setup, even though they would be on each other side of the rad/HE. That's probably we don't really see that kind of setup!



Isn't the hood blocking? I have 2 huge louvers in the hood to help air escape, would be counter-intuitive to me to block them off. Though I agree a lot of air does come out between the hood and windscreen.

The fact I don't use a shroud might also be a reason for hot idle.

He's talking about the space over the radiator, between it and the hood a very small space a little over an inch in the middle that tapers down toward the sides. Check out i think it's AZPete's thread where he posted this mod.
The shroud does make the fans much more efficient in directing the air the fans pull thru the radiator.

[flynntuna]

Here, post9
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?30380-AZPete-s-818-Build-Finished-I-think

[Frank818]

Ah yeah I see....

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=97444&d=1542168074

Pete's thread still very useful.


So a shroud, possibly used in conjunction with Pete's rad panel, would be more efficient on my one fan than swapping to a dual-fan twice the CFM setup?

[aquillen]

Ah yeah I see....

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=97444&d=1542168074

Pete's thread still very useful.


So a shroud, possibly used in conjunction with Pete's rad panel, would be more efficient on my one fan than swapping to a dual-fan twice the CFM setup?

It might. Because - a running fan creates a low pressure in front of the radiator and high pressure behind the fan. When there is a path for air to easily go between these areas, it will gladly move through that path, hence less cooling. Adding more fans / CFM would be more of the brute force solution, but I'd suggest you go that route only after ensuring air intake is as much "fresh" air as possible, i.e., close up any significant recirculation routes. That may also be a hassle to construct (I'm on the verge of that step myself) but is the more elegant/efficient solution attempt.

Three years back, digging around in the Suby forums I recall some engine swap projects from 4 to 6 cyl. Interested in those since I've put in the H6. Guys who tried to get by with a smaller fan setup (because their chassis space was so tight) had cooling issues and had to figure out getting the H6 radiator/fan in there. The fans and rad for the H6 appears to be bigger not only in capability but the ECM has more control over the fan motors which have additional windings. I think you're in that same sort of heat load situation with your engine.

[Frank818]

Tnx Art, Jet and Flyn, yeah I think all the info I have now add up to the same thing.

Saw your draw for OEM fans Art, was expecting OEM fans to be not efficient (12-15amp each) but actually no they're great. I'll see if I can find an H6 shroud/fans assembly or universal dual-12in with shroud or build by own single-14in shroud. Winter project, though.

What I found out is rule of thumb the following:

- 4cyl: 1250CFM
- 6cyl: 2000CFM
- 8cyl: Can't recall, 2800+ I think, but no one has got an 8cyl in the 818 yet.


Even if I have a good shroud for my single fan, it's only 1400CFM. I doubt it's enough. I thought with something like 20-litres of coolant it would cool more the engine but the amount of coolant does not change much on cooling efficiency, it's a matter of how well the heat is extracted from the coolant.

I think I'll change my current solution and get a dual-12in with shroud assembly, pulling 2800CFM. I don't want to spend time building a shroud for my fan and end up finding it's still not enough. Time is way more important than money to me. Up to a certain extent.

[DSR-3]

I found some cast-off stock WRX fans on Craigslist for next to nothing from someone who just had to have some fancy Mishi (or knock-off?) parts. They only have 2 speeds, and I wired only the high speeds, but with independent control & setpoints. Working great so far for me.

[Frank818]

TESTS #4 and 5

Both failed.
#4 was solidifying the rear louver on the deck lid, it was vibrating when I hit on it. No change while driving.
#5 was backing off timing by as much as 8-deg! I thought the sound could be engine knock. Didn't change as well.

One thing's for sure, the sound starts when the engine gets hotter and it gets louder until it reaches normal operating temps or a bit more.

Oh well, I give up for now...

[Frank818]

Speaking of giving up, it's over for 2019. :(


I have oil leaks everywhere.

6 leaks overall. 3 coolant and 3 oil.

My head gasket is leaking all around, I have puddle of oil on my water pump pulley! That is way not normal.
I also have a puddle every time I run the engine on top of one spark plug. Check out the brownish puddle.

114191

I think it's not coming from inside the piston as it seems dry there, but when I take the plug off all the oil wraps around the threads, hard to tell, the tip seems ok so I think it's coming from the valve cover.
Cuz my valve cover is leaking all around as well, even though I put some sealant.

I really don't understand what's going on. I have minimal oil pressure, it's certainly not that causing all the leaking!

The engine does not run very well, now, my fuel is wrong and I didn't change it. When I start the engine it gets very lean for no reason, a simple tap on the gas say 10% for a QUARTER of a second and then fuel gets back to normal. Absolutely no explanation. Same for idle. It now idles with 10-12% too much fuel but I didn't change anything.
When I look at my log files and I compare sensor readings, I found spots where ALL of the readings are the same between last week when engine was fine vs since last w-e when it's not and fuel at idle is way too rich. No explanation possible. My guess is I have a bit of oil in the cylinders and that throws off fueling. That's what happened when I needed to rebuild the engine.

Such a puzzle.

Anyway since the head gasket is leaking I need to get the head off, will buy a new gasket and start all over. Then I'll see if it fixes how bad the engine runs.
Therefore there's no way I can make it before it gets too cold, unless I take 2 weeks off and I can't do that.

Won't crank that engine again until next Spring, god damn it. :(


2019 driving stats: drove 33.3km in 4 months. 1466.7km short of my goal. :(

[STiPWRD]

Sorry to hear that Frank, I was rooting for you. Did you check flatness on your head and block surfaces when you assembled the engine? Even if a machine shop decks those, it's always a good idea to inspect their work.

[Frank818]

My mechanic did check the flatness this Spring and it was running superb until I bent a valve. Since then it's downhill.

When I reinstalled the head he checked again for flatness, but not on the block cuz it was here at home.

[STiPWRD]

Definitely worthwhile checking the flatness on the block as well.
https://www.jegs.com/i/OEMTOOLS/693/25355/10002/-1

[Frank818]

True. My mech has that type of tool, will borrow.
However I truly hope a cast iron engine block not running over 3000rpm (and 95% of the time at 800rpm) does not warp after only 30km.


I'm pretty confident what happened is the following: like I said a few times before, I am a bad builder. Spoke with my mech earlier and he asked me how long it took to install and torque the head after I had put the red Permatex glue on the gasket. I said a good 90mins if not more. He said there's your problem, that glue dries out after 45mins and won't seal if it takes you too long.

Damn, I went as fast as I could for a first time and I knew I was late on the install time, I was hoping it would be ok but seems not!
Next time I need to be twice as fast when I reinstall and torque the head. If not, I have to remove it and start all over again.

He also said since oil is slightly conductive and that I had a lot around one plug and a little around 2-3 others, this might have caused some electrical issues, causing firing issues. Maybe... we'll never know. But what I know is that my weird fueling issues started at the exact time I started to have oil around the plugs.

He also strongly said that a valve cover leaking all around is totally non-sense! And that one I have absolutely no explanation possible for. Anyway it has to take off and will change the gasket for the 3rd time. I'll see next Spring!

Now I have to check on my coolant clamps which are the worst quality possible, stupid worm clamps. And then I have to order a dual-fan setup for the rad. Plus a fuel pressure sensor replacement.

I also chipped my blue wrap on top of the rear fender when installing the humps cover. That car has 33km and is wearing out like 100k km. What a total disappointment.

[Jetfuel]

Frank ...stop it...you're not a bad builder, you are a builder....I know many mechanics that will never tackle a job of this magnitude and here you are....working out a few setbacks in a project that nobody has done before.
Chin up my friend..patience and perseverance will reward you with that unique ride you're looking for.

Jet

[aquillen]

Frank - Jet is on the money. You didn't get that car built without skills no matter what you say. We know better. And I know a lot of mechanics as well that only do exactly what they got trained to do, no gumption / skill to step out of their "safe zone". Wife says you get the international award for perseverance and we're rooting for you man. Stick it out.

I didn't look at the valve cover pics - if you did post any. When you have those covers off, verify nothing bent on mating surfaces. Especially stamped metal ones get out of "flat" easily.

I've always worried about getting the sealant squished within the working time too - ever since about 1975 when my 69 vette 427 had head issues, manifold leaks and I had it off a couple times trying to fix that.

BUT - I think if you get the cover in place and it is down even a little bit, the sealant dry time starts to get extended since it is no longer facing air all along the top of the sealant. Not to change your build instructions but I'd still consider using Permatex's "Right Stuff" for that assembly. It too has a specific work time but is, I think, just about the highest performing sealant you can use for any cover install on engine, trans, diff. Haven't had a leak on anything I've used it on so far. <edit - oops - headgasket? stay with factory spec >

Clamps. You look at my build - lots of hose and pipe interfaces, what with two hot lines out of the engine to the radiator, etc. I put all that together with these - Breeze Constant Torque Clamps. Read about them (advertising is always nothing but claims until verified) and from my experience they do what they say. Ran that motor to full temp several times, even though I've not driven it. Not a leak anywhere to date. Look for them on eBay if you can buy there. Price all over the place but some places very decent. It's true I put some OEM clamps in here and there, but that was after my run tests, and for looks - I don't like appearance of screw clamps but that's just an attitude I have.

AND - I have a number of left overs in I think 3 sizes, you want to send me sizes you need I'll look for, whatever I have is yours if you can use them.

Oh and another thing, the plugs could indeed be misfiring if they have oil up into the boots wetting surfaces all the way to the conductor wires. I think way back I saw a picture of the motor with a distributor, so you are not coil on plug. So, HV wire to plug boots should be very clean, very snug fitting to the plug insulator and good integrity where the boot mates to the wire insulation. Clean the insides and outsides of the boots with Q-tips and denatured alcohol (not 90% isopropyl - has water). If the boots slide easily off the wire insulation then get that interface cleaned up too. Clean the plug insulators as well. If your boots are not fitting snug to keep oil, moisture, etc., from working in there, you could either replace them or pack the insides with Super Lube brand Translucent White Silicone Di-Electric Grease Tube (look in electrical supplies at hardware/box stores). A similar silicone grease is used in 150KV cable connector seals for x-ray equipement and so on. Silicone only, not some other kind of grease.

[lance corsi]

Hang in there Frank!

[Ajzride]

For a couple hundred bucks you can pick up a spare motor so you can always have one in the car and one on the stand.

https://allusedparts.com/volkswagen/jetta/2002/used_engines/?option=ua72bd73c986e2a8c2fee39f95de42345&product_id=UPB158444226K&gclid=Cj0KCQjw_OzrBRDmARIsAAIdQ_LPdniDx7McDmucmybN INCvn5dWSGavXuHJmufCn0mC-hrRSA0_ib8aAsGaEALw_wcB

[Frank818]

Jet you are right, I know you are and I thank you for reminding me.


Art, where's that Vette, now? Worth a million bucks, tell me you still got it.
True, I am not coil on plug, nor distributor. I am coilpack, the in-between technology.
I have found constant torque clamps yes, before reading your post. I'm not worried about coolant leaks due to clamps, that is SO easy to fix, yes.
The inside of the boots look fine, including the rubber part that surrounds the plug. I do have di-electric grease that I usually use inside the boots, but I didn't in the past 2 years. Negligence, although it may not have change anything here.
Here's a few pix of the valve cover leaks, it leaked over the gasket and under the gasket, even though under I did put Right Stuff. Something's really wrong here. All around the gasket there is oil, but leaks are all around except over the timing chain cover.

114326114327114328114329114330114331114332114333



Ajz, the idea is good. The implementation is harder than it sounds. loll I need space to store, I can always find temp space, but permanent is harder. Also I need exact same engine, ODB1, same sensors, wiring, hoses, etc., otherwise I have to change all that stuff and it becomes a build inside the build. I guess I'd need to swap the manifolds too and possibly the head and all internals, otherwise all my tuning in my ECU will be totally different. But finding a similar engine is possible, with totally different ECU tuning.

[codename Bil Doe]

Couple things to verify:

•Are you positive that you properly torqued the valve cover down? Tough to tell, but in img 11.55.03 it appears that the gasket is squished in the upper left corner of the image but there is a gap around the corner of the valve cover between the cover and the gasket. The remains of sealant in img 12.19.12 also seems to show uneven compression. Also dependent on what the gasket pulled up.

•Have you verified the valve cover sealing surface is flat and not warped?

•Is the gasket OEM or aftermarket? Idk how many times I've been burned by non-OEM gaskets, seals, etc.

As for valve cover leaks everywhere, that's a standard frustration with sealing sbc valve covers and intakes (front and rear especially). Once you discover the right combination of gasket manufacturer and procedure, do not ever change.

[Frank818]

•Are you positive that you properly torqued the valve cover down?

As far as the specs data I had, yes I am sure. Those nuts are supposed to torque at 7lbs, which I did, even in an X sequence which not really required. When I saw it leaking, I overtorqued to 8-9lbs about 4-5 nuts, didn't change anything not even around those overtorqued.



•Have you verified the valve cover sealing surface is flat and not warped?

That is my next step.



•Is the gasket OEM or aftermarket? Idk how many times I've been burned by non-OEM gaskets, seals, etc.

OEM replacement, it was made by Victor Reinz, a huge replacement provider of OEM parts or even direct provider of OEM at the manufacture.
This time I ordered one made by Elring, which is the same type of provider as Victor Reinz, they both make a lot of the gaskets (and other parts) the VR6 needs.
There is no true VW gasket (sold under the name VW) anymore for this one, not that I could see.


I could order a beautiful T6 billet cover at a ridiculous price of NINE HUNDRED bucks http://vr6parts.com/onlinestore/index.php/volkswagen/vr6/12-valve/cylinder-head-valvetrain-parts/billet-vr6-valve-cover.html
But I have no guarantee it won't leak.

[Frank818]

Hum, pic 11.55.03 is interesting, can't recall if I took it before I untorqued the bolts or not, I think yes. Is it just picture lighting but there seems to be a gap between the cover and gasket. Will definately put more attention on the warping validation.

[Frank818]

I have switched myself into fixing/upgrade mode.

Therefore I also worked on my cooling issue. With the help of a few of you regarding OEM Subaru fan assembly I was able to gather enough data to point me into one direction. Since my rad is not OEM and the anchor points of OEM assemblies don't fit with my rad, I searched for something different.

I wanted to minimize time on this fix and maximize results. I found a guy on ebay, he's American! He is building me a CUSTOM shroud and will fit 2-12" 1400CFM each fans.


114336114337

I sent him the ebay listing of my rad, thank god it was still there 5 years later! And I also did precise measurements for him.
I will be able to bolt that shroud on the rivnuts at the top and bottom of the rad. It will cover the entire core.
I could have gone with 1 standard fan and 1 heavy duty 2000CFM fan, but the standard fan draws 10amps each and the heavy 15amps. I am limited at 25amps unless I remove the water tank and build a relay which I didn't want to do.

2800CFM total should be enough to cool down a 5.0-litre American V8 and since I am not racing, I believe that's gonna be enough, providing I make sure fresh air constantly flows through the rad.
I was so naive to think one 14" 1800CFM fan without a shroud would cool the engine down. It's not even sufficient for a V6 and I guess that Chinese fan does not blow 1800CFM as advertised.


This fix should be easy to perform and will save me time to fix the head gasket/valve cover leaks. That's my goal.

[Frank818]

Ha! I used a square, which is usually fairly straight, to check the valve cover. It seems it has warped! It's waved and exactly where I was expecting it, at least for 1-2 spot checks. I turned the square around to check on one of its other edge and I get the same result.

Either I don't measure right, or the cover has warped.

How the hell can that happen, been proven reliable for 27 years. Could it have endured a lot of stress during those moments the engine was jerking super hard which caused the cam bolt to loosen, fall off and bend the valve?

I think I should take any chance and get the cover decked.

[aquillen]

When baby 2 came along in 1978 wife said "my" Vette needs 2 kid seats. "I want a VW bug like I had in high school." Ouch - 427 Vette -> 68 Beatle. God what a come down. But then I had gone from a '71 850 Fiat Spyder to the Vette, so been both directions. Looking back, I keep my cars in good condition so the Stingray would have had some value today. We called it the "log wagon" - it drove just like one, no power anything except the motor.

Find a local granite countertop business. Go bum a piece of scrap stone from them, most throw stuff away bigger than you can carry. It will be heavy, FYI. If you are worried it might not be flat, don't - or take your best straight edge and see for yourself. Doublestick tape or spray glue some 220 grit sandpaper sheets on the stone. Hone down your warped item (anything you need to flatten) on this. If you want to get fancy run finer paper on it until you are happy. Keep it around for other similar jobs. I use mine every so often for something. Heck. if it came to it I'd even flatten a cylinder head that way - seen it done. You do have to think about and work with the stroke/pressure you use in order to not make a bigger problem but really that comes down to checking your work and using some sense as you go. But then I do stuff like resurface disc brake rotors on car with a belt sander too. I get out of the box pretty often (then they find me and put me back in).

Once you are satisfied for sure you have a flat stone, you can also do things like smear lipstick on whatever, slide it on the stone and see what is not flat, etc. Or heck, blow 800$ on a granite flat from some machine shop supply house. It's only money.

[Frank818]

Stingray?? Ah man, those kids cost a lot of money! But as you said, "it's only money". :)

Good idea with the countertop, my kitchen is full of it, worse case I'll do it there.
I have a wood table in the garage, thick pressed wood, it's supposed to be very flat, I'll check that. If it is I'll permanently mount the stuff there as it is the table I work on for the car.
The cover is aluminum so it should be very easy to sand down.

[Jetfuel]

Glass table or glass door/windows are sweet to check for a warped component

[Frank818]

Valve cover is warped.

I was able to lay it on my glass table and I could slip through a sheet of paper in some spots, also I could see the light of a flashlight a lot more in those same spots.

My problem is this:

114370

Impossible to lay the cover entirely on anything. So I'll call my mech tomorrow and ask him who can deck this thing.


My parents moved on Aug 22nd so I never was able to go to their home, in which I grew, with the 818.
And now where they are many people have awesome cars. AMGs, SLSs, special Aston Martins, 911 Carrera 4 GTS Targa, Ferraris and these 2:

114364114365114366114367114368114369

911 GT3 RS and 488................ PISTA! Let me say that again PISTA!
Never thought I'd see a Pista here in QC, this is probably the most fun track oriented road car.
Damn I envy that guy so much, I'm so frustrated not to have that money. And so frustrated I couldn't show him the 818! I'm better than this guy cuz I built my own car capable of a better power to weight ratio than his, if I can make it work... He also has another Ferrari and 911 GTS Targa + more for the wife.


Not that important but like I said many times when I remove something I try to make it or something else better. This time I decided to remove my WG at the manifold. It's been bolted onto since 2006! I wanted to change the gasket, just in case. Well it turns out the bolts were loose, which probably explains some carbon I saw on the exterior of the WG. I ordered some more gaskets. I'm sure this thing would have failed at some point, wouldn't have been good to see that!

[Frank818]

Spoke with my mech regarding the warped cover. He does not know anyone who can resurface it.

It's a discontinued part so I don't have many options.


1- I saw 4 screws inside the cover which seem to remove the venting block that prevents laying the cover flat. If it does I'll resurface it myself with your ideas. I must not fail if I do that.
2- If the venting block is not removable, I have found in Latvia a new cover for 120 US bucks. Only place in the world I could find one new. 4 left!
3- Buy a T6 billet cover at the stupid cost of 875 bucks. Would need to re-do my venting hoses as the design is different.




If decide to try #1 I won't know until next Spring if it works. Since #2 only has 4 left in stock, by Spring he may not have any left. Which means I'm risking a 875 bucks expense. That's a huge risk.


So I think I may try to resurface and see if I can remove the head and put it back in within the next few weeks (rushing and making more mistakes maybe?) and crank that engine before it gets snowy. Race against time yet again, as it's always been on that project.


That's the problem when you keep alive discontinued parts!


I could also pay 120 bucks now for that cover, resurface mine and if it works then I have a new spare part for later.
If I don't pay now and try to fix myself, I may never pay if successful or pay 875 bucks if resurfacing failed.
If I pay now 120, I would have paid less for a replacement, but I may have paid for nothing if I don't need a replacement.

[STiPWRD]

Another option is to have a local machine shop resurface it. It doesn't have to be an automotive machine shop, but any place with a mil should be able to give you a flat gasket surface. Or you can send it out if no one is available locally. I googled machine shop in Quebec and there were several results, although in French.

[longislandwrx]

Agreed, someone with a standard endmill should be able to take down the high points.

you're so close! Next year is going to be the year of driving!

GOOD LUCK!

[Frank818]

Interesting twist of plans!


1st here's a pic of the cover after removing that venting block piece which allowed me to lay it completely flat on its entire length:

114441

Hard to take a pic, you may think there's an illusion caused by the area without powder coat but no in the middle of pic and going sideways, it's not touching at all the glass. It's like that in many places, this one being close to the worst.

Then yes why looking for automotive shop when a simple generic machine shop could do it. I found one 30sec away from my mech's shop, will be going there tomorrow, I called and the guy said he should be able to do something, just bring in the sucker and we'll see what can be done.

I worked on the car tonight, was about to flush coolant and then my brain exploded. Now that I've seen the areas where the cover is warped, what a weird coincidence that it's exactly in those areas the oil is leaking the most!

What would be the odds that 1- the head gasket would leak almost at the same time as the valve cover + 2- the head gasket would leak while the valve cover leaks + 3- the pistons are bone dry and exhaust never got smoke out of it, meaning there is close to no chance of an internal oil leak, it would be 100% external.

It took a while after I've seen the cover leaking around that it actually started to drop on the floor. Makes sense, if the cover is the ONLY source of leaking, then it took a while for the oil to build up and reach down below.

All around the head, mostly in the areas where the cover leaks, it's greasy. Looking below I can follow the oil, which then reaches the gasket.

At the exhaust manifold and over gearbox I have no leak at all on the block. The cover leaks much less or not at all there. But on the exhaust front corner, front pulley side and intake front corner, this is where the cover leaks the most and this is where I have bunch of oil leaking and this is where the cover is quite warped.

What are the odds the head gasket would also have the same leaking pattern as the cover?

I say close to none.

I say the head gasket does not leak and I should put back everything I already removed (quite a lot loll), wait for a cover fix and crank that sucker up. I'm not risking anything except a bit of time, however I already accounted for the fact that I'm done for 2019.

Am I really that smart (or just paranoid)? We'll see.

[aquillen]

I'd do the very same thing you just described.

[Frank818]

I made a mistake on the cover part #. The one I found in Latvia for new is actually the plastic version cover. This morning my mech told me to stay away from those cuz they tend to crack.

Ok. Well then the machine shop told me it could cost few hundred bucks to fix my cover and there is no guarantee it will work. There are some challenges to do it right. For example there is a half moon on one side so when they resurface the flat edges, the half moon will not. Will then squash the gasket with more pressure in that area.

Heating up the cover and pressing it down to give its shape back is another idea. However it may be very long to do with a portable propane torch and I could fail too.

I have found some alu covers but they are all used. In Germany for the most of them. I ordered one, need the guy to come back with shipping costs, it's all in German I have to use google translate. Hope it's gonna work.

Finding one in a scrap yard is possible, although I need to go there in person, look around, etc... takes time without knowing how long it's gonna take and if I'll find something.
Will try some VW shops around, call them and ask if they have a cover.

[codename Bil Doe]

For how cheap the plastic ones are, if it works I would use it. If it cracks, it costs nothing to replace.

More important to be on the road buttoning up stuff and enjoying the car. It's better to be driving a car with issues than to have a perfect car sitting in the garage.

Besides, now that you see how the aluminum ones can also warp so severely, you should really avoid those, too, and not use a valve cover at all.

Down the road when you want everything gold plated you can upgrade to a $900 replacement.

[STiPWRD]

I would get a quote at more than one machine shop. Also, a good shop will machine the half moon as well and provide a matched set with the valve cover. This will definitely run a few hundred bucks so that's not unexpected. Machine shop time is expensive. I would definitely avoid heating the cover, especially with a torch, as this will probably make the warping even worse unless you really know what you're doing.

[Frank818]

All this makes sense.


The warping on the alu cover should only happen when you do the same mistake I did, which is partly untorque some of the bolts while engine still very hot. Usually no one removes the cover hot as no one starts removing cams while everything is hot! Alu covers will be more reliable over time and they are sold at the same price as plastic ones (also discontinued), which is why I'll try to get one in alu. Unless I find a plastic one locally, shipping an alu one will be the fastest I can get a cover.

I'll continue looking in salvage/junk/scrap yards and on your website, Bill, just in case I find something cheap there!

I am definitely looking into the fastest solution, still at an ok price. Machine shop is not my 1st choice now, as I need to look for another one, go there, explain, miss work on the fly, then pay 100s for something that may not really work if not done 100% perfect. I'd rather invest my time looking in junk yards, that's what I mean. :)

[codename Bil Doe]

If you find one, message me. This is one of the few threads I come on to check.

Try to aim for something closer to 95050 or 95127. If necessary I can make a road trip within the 100mi search range. Weekend field trip.

[metros]

I was wondering if the cover leak was so bad that it appeared to be leaking at the hg too. Start simple and work up to the more work intensive solutions.

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than skilled.

[Frank818]

What a week searching.

I nailed one cover! I was ordering some VR6 parts from my old place in PA and I decided to ask Bill (different Bill than the one here!) if by any chance he had a Corrado cover. He said yes!
So while he's shipping me some neat parts I'll get to show and explain once I get them, the cover will be included in that shipping.

Still no news from the German ebay guy I'm waiting on an invoice with shipping costs, so hopefully he won't make it within the 5 business days which will give me a reason to contact ebay and ask to cancel the sale without paying anything. Or so be it and I get a spare from him.

However I am still looking in junk yards in case I find one cheaper than the German guy. Better have at least one spare anyway. Bill I contacted some of the places, got one reply asking questions and waiting on their reply. We'll see where it goes.

If I'm lucky I'll get the cover by the end of next week. Should also get my shroud by then. If I'm even more lucky I'd be able to install the shroud for my next drive, but I must not take any chance by delaying as October is sometimes difficult to find warm enough weather, until the 15th I should be ok, past that date it's like flipping a coin.

[Frank818]

Got my cover. It's dirty, needs a very good clean-up and this winter powder coating. This time I'll have it coated in... BLUE, of course!

114777114778


Also got these girls:

114774114775

Now these are cam gears. I remember someone telling me if possible to change my cam gear that twisted on the cam in case it got stressed. Well I found that product at my old place in PA so I took a pair. Winter project along with cover and replacing 2 faulty lifters (DLC coating has gone wrong).
They are infinitely adjustable without turning the cams!
As you can see on the pic, there's always a hole that goes through. You turn the gear and the inner center piece does not. In one of those holes I then push a dowel pin to secure the cam gear alignment and on top to secure the dowel pin I either put a cam sensor or that flat huge washer.
These cam gears are designed to accommodate resurfaced heads and blocks with head gasket spacers. I've got both. This might have explained why I rushed so hard timing the cams and could get a perfect timing.
Now with these I put the cams DEAD ON and set the chain slack by turning the gears.


And to go along with this, I got a manually adjustable chain tensioner.

114776

Instead of using oil pressure which causes too much pressure at high rpm/boost, this is a steady pressure tensioner. I run the engine at idle, hear chain noises, I turn the small knob until I hear no noise, I stop there and secure the adjustment with the hex bolt. Bingo. Less stress in chain and gears, less wear.


Also Porsche lovers, this is a must! Wish I could build one but no space.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOyle_eg7wg

[Frank818]

Found exactly why my cover warped and was about to warp another one.


Check this thing.

114965114966


There’s some kind of a washer around the stud, was fixed there, didn’t move or remove. Turned out to be the washer from the gasket, stuck there. All holes are washers embedded in gasket rubber.

It got stuck there when I removed the cover after my bent valve. Which explains exactly why it was dry from mechanic and started to leak after I reinstalled the head.

No wonder why it was all pouring on my spark plug and pulleys!


I still put my old cover back on, torqued to 8lbs instead of 7lbs, seems to have squashed the gasket tight all around.


Friday or Sunday I'll give it a try.

[aquillen]

Always a good feeling to sort stuff like this out, finally understanding what was wrong. And just proves you able to troubleshoot and fix.

[codename Bil Doe]

In image 06.14.43, is it an optical illusion or is the tab for that bolt hole fractured at the radius?

[fletch]

Nice find! So great to discover the cause of an issue. Keep up the good work!

[Frank818]

In image 06.14.43, is it an optical illusion or is the tab for that bolt hole fractured at the radius?

On the black cover, you mean?

115026

Optical illusion, the cover is made like that it's not all smooth there are some seams areas.

[sgarrett]

It is amazing how after all the hard work, big problems we need to solve, and intricate engineering in these systems, it can still be the little things that get us. Congrats on figuring this one out! I am truly hoping to find something like this in the clutch area when I get mine back apart.

[Frank818]

It is amazing how after all the hard work, big problems we need to solve, and intricate engineering in these systems, it can still be the little things that get us. Congrats on figuring this one out! I am truly hoping to find something like this in the clutch area when I get mine back apart.

It sure is, man. All those little things I believe I've caught maybe just 10% of them before they caused me issues at some point. We are so focused on the big issues that those little ones slip through like... like well, I was about to use a reference Trump would happily use but I'll hold on.

As an example, this little washer stuck there, I knew it was there! I saw it when I took the gasket off for bent valve repair on July 1st! And every time I put the cover on later, or timed the cams using my cam tool which requires to sit over that stud I was seeing that damn washer.
And yet I never did anything about it cuz I didn't know why that was there, it was a "too little thing to focus on".



So everyone as a lesson learned, keep the same high focus on the little things as you do on the big issues. Cuz overseeing the little ones may well cause you big ones later on! And you will swear forever when that happens, trust me, swears are the only words left in my vocab now.

[sgarrett]

[QUOTE=... swears are the only words left in my vocab now.[/QUOTE]

I always thought swearing was the refuge of the ignorant....but now I also understand it is the vocabulary of the kit car builder! I have now cleaned up as much coolant off of my floor as I have managed to keep in the car.

[Frank818]

F*CK YEAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!

This is the sound of a car that did 15km, 41mins running, 2 startups, in one drive!

That is more than twice the distance I've ever made before and I went 3 times further out the neighborhood.

Car refused to break! I don't really understand. loll
It's not perfect! But it seems I can drive!

No leak at all on the valve cover! Impressive. And head gasket does not seem to leak either.

Why I stopped after 15km?

1- I still don't fully trust the car, I need one good drive without any uncontrollable leak. In order to find a leak I need to let it cool.
2- Overheating. The stupid Chinese 14" fan without a shroud I have is CRAP! I put my hand over when it was spinning after shutdown to cool engine and couldn't feel much air. Maybe it's partly broken and does not spin at full speed.

In order to keep the engine cool I need to drive at a certain speed without stopping. Impossible downtown cuz I stop often. And I cannot get out of downtown yet. But I'm close!!

Other good news!! Dump that Chinese fan!! I was working from home today cuz I took the afternoon off in order to drive the car and my shroud kit with 2-12" fans arrived this morning! In between 2 meetings, absolutely the perfect moment! I wasn't expecting it today! Man I sure got lucky.

USA made, looks awesome. I hope I can fit it tomorrow while it'll be raining full day. Got other priorities too.
Full sunny day on Sunday, I could drive again!



Still needs quite some fuel tuning. Still got that metallic vibration but it was not there all the time and as long as before. I drove the 1st time without a bunch of parts I had removed to test that vibration. Still vibrating. This really yields me to internal engine, there's nothing left for me to remove.

Sorry for only 9sec but it's hard when you have your 2 hands and brain working on other stuff, plus I missed my 3rd gear shift so I lost video recording focus and put it on the gearbox.



http://youtu.be/IEsDaYvwBdw



Still got that lifter tapping once in a while too but it's not that bad.

https://youtu.be/iya3chuTdao



I changed my plugs, just in case. Engine sound is now slightly different when warmed up. It gets deeper and more... hum, mellow, insulated, smooth. Hard to describe, but it's exactly how I envisioned it. If only I could get rid of that damn vibration.

Very easy to rev past 3k on accel.

Brakes work better when warmed up, less pressure required to brake and pedal feels a little less hard. I start to get used to no power brakes, seems to work quite well.

Shifting is hard. 30% of the time I was missing shifts or 1st gear was popping out. My 1st gear has NO synchro, it's 1988! I looked stupid a few times at a stop trying to launch and CRRRRCHCHHHHH, grinding 1st gear, wouldn't launch. I'll perfect that with time and this winter I'll see if I can adjust the cables.

Steering seems 99% perfect! Does not trame line, does not pull either way on accel, no pulling at constant speed, no pulling when braking, stable turns, stable on bumps, all good. I think it could be better but only lasers will make it better. Will do one day. It's free, my mech has a machine at his shop.


This car is a freakin huge magnet, though. An 8yo girl who was about to get in her mom's SUV saw me and she pointed her finger at me while yelling something at her mother. And she got her out of the car to look at that blue thing! And hear it making a metallic vibration. :( But they probably don't remember that.


Now I have to fix some small leaks, including this one that I'm sure no one has ever had on the VR6.

115086


But that's minimal, as long as I can DRIVE!

When I was driving, at one point I felt the engine and rest of car doing pretty great. I that precise moment, I yelled F*CK YEAH!

That felt great. It was a great drive, considering all the non-stop crap I had in the past 2 years.

I need a beer. 2 beers. 3 beers. Vodka. Scotch. Bourbon, Gin.

[Jetfuel]

Good to hear that....
Now...take the rest of the evening off...get your beverage of choice...go in the garage...look at that blue machine and say it out loud...."hell yeah...I built that "
Tomorrow is another day

Congrats my friend...

[Frank818]

"hell yeah...I built that "

You bet. :)

[Frank818]

Installed my dual-fans shroud kit!

Took 7.5h straight, no drinking, no eating. Just a couple of wizzes.

115118

That American guy really did cut the shroud perfectly, isn't that right? Fits superb, NO modification to it. Just holes for mounting tabs and fans.


I wanted to test them out but then I hit a wall again. My fuses for the front accessories (as rad fans) are inaccessible. I have to completely remove the dash OFF THE CAR. Couple hours work, due to many gauges and switches and kill switch which are always difficult in their own ways to disconnect and/or reconnect.

I should have installed my InfinityBox Powercell under the dash frame and not on top of it! I knew that, however I never thought I would need to change a fuse QUICKLY. The problem here is "quickly".


Other lesson learned, guys, NEVER design your fuse installation in a way it takes time to get to it. Make it easily accessible, at all costs. If you don't, you better have a god damn great reason more important than anything else your life.

I'll see if I can make it tomorrow and drive while it's sunny and reasonable temperature. The more I wait the less driving days there will be, which is why I am racing against time since 5AM this morning, but I didn't take into account the dash removal. Will have to cut on other activities, I think.

[Frank818]

Incredible, I was able to make it, removing the dash, changing the fuse, reinstalling. Found a way it takes less time, still not fun but takes less time.

The fans seem loud but I got 2 small fans running in the back as well and they make more noise than the 2-12" up front.


http://youtu.be/1fmPrqw-TXw


Then it's time for a drive!

No it's not.
When I turn on my ECU, the fuel pump doesn't start. Again. I removed the rear FW to gain access to fuses, wires and pump and guess what?
The exactly same issue that happened this summer happened again!

The ground on the fuel pump connector has melted and collapsed! Even though I had put a lot of marine epoxy to keep it in place. Really amazing.

115129115130115131

You can clearly see the ground pin collapsed.


Art, I think I'm gonna need your expertise on this one. How can I rule out the pump itself?
AEM recommends 20A fuse, that is what I have. It has not blown.

Then why would the ground overheat like that?
Is it really a bad connector design or I am doing something wrong in my wiring/pump setup?

If all is right on my end, then I have to drill holes and pass-through other wires to bypass the connector. In a better way that I did last time, though.

[aquillen]

Not easy to tell just looking at pictures but I get the feeling that red connector's brass contacts are just not up to the task. Either they are getting spread and then loose fitting to the solid pins or the red shell is not going fully into the socket - so they aren't fully engaged. Could be those contacts have a design or material defect so they are not gripping as tight as they are supposed to. Given both times you've seen the same thing, in my case I'd probably go with what you tried before - run bypass wires down a spare tube or make an opening for wires, and bypass that fried connector pair with good connections you can trust.

If the pump was stalling at power up it would draw a lot of extra current but with 20amp fusing, it should pop the fuse, not just cook the connector. About the only way to "test" the pump for stall or overcurrent when running is get a DC ammeter in the circuit and see what it does at each pump start and then running. Try it a bunch of times. Also verify the fuse itself really is a 20A fuse, just in case it is running way overcurrent but the fuse is not a 20...

[Frank818]

Tnx Art!

One more info, before the 1st meltdown I was using a 15A fuse. Never blown. Then I read the pump's manual and they recommend 20A so I put 20A. Which means I changed fuse so if it was the fuse, a 15A and 20A would have done the exact same thing (overcurrent and not true 15 and 20A).

As you said maybe the problem is in the red connector and not the black one on the pump unit. Too bad it's fried now, I would have used that black connector and make my own female ones to mate with it.

Last time I found out the spare tube was risky and is limited in wire size. I'll drill a hole, or maybe 2 small holes, this time. Either way I have to close tight the holes, whether from the spare tube or drilling. I might use the spare tube for just 1 wire and drill a small hole for another wire. Anyway I'll make tests for the best solution, but bypass here I come again and this time you must not fail.

It's really sad, it's the 1st fix I do that blows up in my face a 2nd time. On the other hand, I know the car runs, now. I only did 48km in 1 season (target was 1500) but I know it runs. I don't feel frustrated, I just feel sad after the very hard work I put on it this w-e in order to drive it but couldn't. Just a couple of days left for the season, considering I work 5 days a week.



Oh, lesson learned again, guys: always use FLUX PASTE when soldering wires. When I soldered the wires for my new rad fans I decided to follow Art's advice and use flux paste. I thought that thing was a scam and not really working or just in very precise situations. I tried it once on an AWG0 or 1 wire while soldering a huge o-ring terminal and it didn't work.
But turns out the AWG6 or 8 wires I soldered for the fans, sometimes up to 3 of them at the same time, were heating up in a matter of seconds and the soldering wire was melting through each individual hair wire. It was A LOT easier and FASTER to solder, no soldering wire puddle anymore. And the result is a stronger solder than I've ever done. Faster and better, it's possible to have both! Just listen to Art and use flux paste.

[aquillen]

Make sure you are using rosin flux not acid flux, pretty sure I said that before but important. Acid flux will corrode the parts over time.

[Jetfuel]

Frank...follow the advice of the mad scientist (Art)
If OK then run your wires your way but if I had to do it I will get rid of the connector and use a bus bar for both power and an independent ground...no other grounds in the same location...

Keep rocking it

Jet

[Frank818]

Well things evolved a lot since 5hAM this morning.

Art, frist tnx for your PM it inspired my creativity (see below). Second, this is the flux I got, doesn't say acid or rosin, but by the ingredients I'm sure you'll know right away.

115220115221


I have dismantled, on my older unit, the entire black casing on the fuel unit. I saw how the brass pin and wires were designed and installed.

I am left with 2 holes. I will pass through 2 wires and make a connection outside the unit with a connector of my own and solder inside the pump on the pump's connector.
That is the easy part.

Then I have to seal around the wires.
I removed my new unit from the tank and god.... the marine epoxy that they say resists fuel has started to peel off!! No wonder the pin collapsed when it overheated, the bond between the epoxy and alu is gone, there is a gap now.

The funny thing is my tank is quarter full. So there is no permanent fuel at the very top of the tank, just splashes, maybe, when I drive.

I need to find a better sealant. God damn fuel, that thing is so nasty!
Once I find the right sealant then all will be fine forever.

Hum, maybe fiberglass/carbon fiber resin? Not sure it'll hold up well on alu. That's the harder part, I need a sealant that bonds well on alu and resists being in fuel.

[STiPWRD]

Have you thought about running the wires through a rubber grommet and then sealing the grommet to the bulkhead with some silicone? You could also try fuel resistant RTV to make the seal.

https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-85420-Permashield-Resistant-Dressing/dp/B007VIGCJW/ref=asc_df_B007VIGCJW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312097317052&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12389663176048652505&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1027236&hvtargid=pla-571817582075&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=57631863970&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312097317052&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=12389663176048652505&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1027236&hvtargid=pla-571817582075

[aquillen]

JB Weld is supposed to be fuel resistant as well. It will be permanent with that in there. If you run insulated wire through, fuel can wick up inside the insulation, so would want bare conductors I think.

That flux is usually just called an acid flux since it is zinc and ammonium - chlorides (both of these are "salts" but often are mixed with a mild acid as well when formulating the flux product). These salts like to acquire moisture which then is followed with corrosion even without added acids, especially if electrical current flow can be established between conductors (even minute flow due to traces of conductivity that the wetted salts provide).

Since you've used it, I suggest cleaning it as much as possible using two steps - sodium bicarbonate/water solution followed with soapy water using a tooth brush. Heat gun dry afterward to force out water quickly and completely. I've never seen detailed cleaning instructions but this should minimize problems.

Once cleaned, seal the area against moisture absorption with some RTV. Note there are two kinds of RTV (at least) - some emit acetic acid as they cure and this in itself will be another corrosion problem. You can usually tell the kind that does this - it has a strong pungent/acrid smell when it is dispensed. Some RTV products are "electrical safe" and do not release acid when curing. "Low odor" silicone RTV is usually suited but read the packaging. If "emits" acetic acid during cure - skip it.

Example to use = Permatex Black Silicone Adhesive
US Part Number: 81158
Canada Part Number: 59203
This product specifically includes use for electrical wiring.

[aquillen]

Just a note - rosin flux will always state "for electrical/electronic use". Other fluxes may not state anything about "electrical/electronic".

[Frank818]

Yes I thought about grommets but I have no indication those I got are fuel resistant.

The marine epoxy I had used is from JB Weld and claim resists fuel.

I do use Permatex RTV US 80016. Maybe it's not the right one but this one worked very well on fuel so far, I'm just not sure if it will last dipped in fuel.
I will take a look at the other suggested part numbers.


So far I checked if I could use a screw and locknut, but I'm not sure about it. Maybe with 6-32 or 8-32 through the holes.
Turns out there is a small thick o-ring rubber between the black casing and alu. So I passed through new wires and used the RTV to bond and seal. Then from the outside on top of the wires and rubber I will use the marine epoxy. It won't be dipped in fuel there, so that should be ok.

I'll think again on the screws and locknut, this would squeeze the parts and rubbers which would maximize strength. I'll get some brass screws.

And will clean the flux after using it once I do my connections and solderings.

[Jetfuel]

Fuel tank sealant
DeSoto. PRC 1440
Or
3M AC-350 B 1/2

Need some.....let me know

Jet

[Frank818]

Damn, aerospace stuff! Yes for long term use, I'll PM you later this week.

While reading about the DeSoto stuff, this came along


The cures sealant maintains excellent elastomeric properties after prolonged exposure to both jet fuel and aviation gas.

Prolonged exposure to Jetfuel (from Indiana)... lollll And you thought I wouldn't see that? :)



Ok I'm not happy about the wire pass through setup. It won't last very long! When wires wiggle, the sealant moves as it's not the hardened version. I can get the hardened version, but still I would not be happy with just wires.

So tomorrow I'm going at the local store to get 6-32 brass screws and zinc locknuts (they don't seem to have brass lock nuts in 6-32) and I will make a kick a** setup. I was able to save the 4 o-ring terminals and wires on my 2 units (2 per units), which means I can use them (they are small yet for the right wire diameter) on both sides of the unit, outside squashed by the locknuts and inside tank squashed by the screw head. Or the other way around if the nuts are inside tank.

Since I also have the 4 rubber washers I'll use them both sides as well. With a bit of fuel sealant + some epoxy on the outside just to seal even better by hardening, yet still able to unscrew the nuts. Just need to protect the exposed screws. I have liquid electric rubber for that.

That will be sturdy enough and as sealed as I can make it in the short term. This winter I'll look to make it even better

[Frank818]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD3B8kQZRc8

Turbo hiss, engine sound, massive gearbox whining. Those are the noises of a real car.

Listen at 14m30s what he says. That is exactly what's happening with our 818s, on the roads.

[Jetfuel]

I guess that we can all relate to that comment...
After driving my car for over 4K miles since mid April I can tell you that the looks and the same question of "what kind of car is that" never gets old....

Jet

[Frank818]

HEEELLLLLL YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!

I BUILT THIS CAR!!!!


http://youtu.be/uJ3X7gsA1PE


Damn it's hard to take a video while driving. I couldn't do it more spirited, but it'll come!

Another 14km and the car was running better than last time. It seems the suspension gets better, I guess it settles the more I drive it. Same for steering, transitions where totally smooth.

That car has a lot of torque!!
Still needs a fuel tune but that will be the case for a couple of 1000skm until I get it much better.
It seems the engine changes over time, regarding fuel. Maybe the rings settle and this reduces blowby or increases it, whichever, it's a bit different now on my fuel and I have to adjust.

It was only 12C (54F) but sunny and that was just PERFECT inside the car. I guess the engine warms up the cockpit just right for that temp. Now I know this car can be driven until so freezing the summer tires will get too hard. Which means I can most probably extend the driving season as far as Dec 1st, cuz every year our law requires us to have winter tires on starting on Dec 1st, which I won't buy of course!

I found how to engage R, 1st, 3rd and 5th easier, I have to adjust the shift cable. Now though I went too far and 2nd and 4th were a little more difficult. I will back off a bit and hope it won't affect the other 3 gears, but I'm sure I can find a sweet spot.

Dual-fan rad shroud kit! AWESOME!!!!! That thing works so damn well only a few mins after shut down the rad was COLD. When I came back and opened the hood the air inside was already cold. It used to be very hot and the rad was hot for a looong time. Not anymore. I also saw the temps drop quickly once the fans kicked in. Not sure I can get them down as much as OEM Subaru (tnx Harley for letting me know those temps!), but they dropped by a very manageable number.

DO NOT install your rad without a shroud! And without enough CFM. Unless you rarely drive downtown.

The kit I have is so quiet I do not hear them, I only hear the loud smaller fans in my engine bay/oil cooler.

Sure there are 3-4 minor leaks I need to fix but that doesn't prevent me from driving so far. No valve cover leak at all and no head gasket leak!


LET'S ROLL!!!

[Frank818]

Right I forgot to show my fuel pick-up solution.

115468115469115470115471115472115473

You can see the previous wire overheated!

I'll need some aerospace fuel sealant for this winter so I can better seal all that and seal the pick-up ring so it won't leak when I have a full tank.

[Frank818]

Another thing I forgot, that weird vibration at a certain RPM.

It changed. Now it's a little less loud and the RPM range is less than before, it starts around 2300 and stops around 2700. It starts not loud and gets louder until it peaks at 2500 and then gets softer until gone at 2700.

Weird thing, but it gets better.

[aquillen]

Pump connector you made looks good. Good you are on the road too! Congrats in order.

[Frank818]

Wouldn't have made it without your advice, Art...

[Harley818]

Hopefully you can get some drive time in now. Glad to see you on the road.

[Pearldrummer7]

Man this is AWESOME. Congrats on driving it around (again). Mount a GoPro so we can hear it when you step on the gas hard :)

[AZPete]

heeellllll yeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!

I congratulate that guy!!!!

[Canadian818]

Frank, your perseverance is inspirational, so happy to see you driving! .....slow clap....

[Frank818]

Mount a GoPro so we can hear it when you step on the gas hard :)

Thinking of getting one. If anyone sells his or knows where to get a cheap working one I'd check for that.

[svanlare]

Just caught back up on your thread!!!!! SOOOOOOO AWESOME!!!!!!

[Frank818]

WONDERFUL day today! Perfect weather!

Clocked 38km! In 2 sessions, drove for over 1h (excluding idle time). I am now at 106km for the year, which is just a day of driving for all of you but for me it's a Guiness record. And everything started working at a time I was about to store the car for the winter, who knew...

I went twice as far as last time, almost got out the boundaries of my town.

Fuel map... hard in some spots. I really think the engine acts different the more the rings seat in. There's always a new spot that I need to fix, but it's still driveable so that's good.

It was relatively hot in the cockpit, even though weather was 16-17C. I implemented heated seats but honestly the engine heats up so much I think I could even drive in subzero (sub-32F) temps and I wouldn't need heated seats! I would need cooling seats for the summer, which I won't implement.

I found the sweet spot on my shifter cables, I can engage all gears without any grinding or gear popping. That really helps enjoy the ride more. When I engage perfectly the gears it is SO MUCH FUN to drive. Very very quick shifting when I get it perfect and super smooth on engine. Usually 65 to 75% of the time I was getting it perfect.

The suspension surprised me. On long bumps (long up and down movements on a timeline scale) it absorbs super well I was amazed how smooth it was. Sporty but not harsh!
On very short bumps (short hits on the suspension on a timeline scale), it's not as good, it transfers the hit to the chassis and body panels. Sometimes I heard a TOK somewhere between the fuel tank and rear driver's wheel well. And you feel the suspension firmer but not that noisy, the car is not as noisy as I thought it would be on bumps. I don't have rattles, apart the one at a specific RPM which changed again today. Getting better I think.

I think #400 in the rear is almost perfect for the VR6. #375 might be better but I would need to drop to #325 up front and raise the rear to acomodate softer springs (I am very low at the rear) which may cause potential issues with my axles' angle, so I'll drive for a long time with #400 and I'm fine with that.


Will try to have videos next time.

[q4stix]

Awesome! Glad to hear the progress and that you're able to start driving it for real now!