My Experience With Jeff Kleiner Part 1

[BadAsp427]

Part 1:
Did you know that I literally almost gave up on my build this September while my car was with Jeff Kleiner getting the paint and body work. It was a very frustrating and deflating time of what was a fantastic journey to that point. I was remarkably close to advertising that the car was for sale and at Jeff’s ready for the new owner to pick a color. What caused these extreme feelings? The way that I felt I was being treated as a customer. Now, I have been told that you can have your paint and body work with “Low Price, High Quality, and Quick Turn Around”, but you can only have two of those. I do not agree 100% with that thought as I have seen all three from other paint and body shops over the years. But I do understand this premise.

So let me start with the bottom line so that you can decide if you wish to read about my experience with Jeff Kleiner or not. Here is the Bottom Line: while Jeff Kleiner is very much applauded and idolized here on the forum, his customer service and communication skills are very much lacking. His body work is great and his paint skills/abilities are good. If you are on his waiting list you should be aware of this and accept it if you wish. Just know, you will get fantastic body work and a pretty good paint job. If you are not willing to put up with his antics, poor communication, lace of time commitments, etc., then there are several others that can do the same job, perhaps even better. I hope this long post in some way helps you with your build.

Recently I posted in my build thread about what you really pay your body shop for. I talked specifically about the fit and finish of the panels and gaps. In that post, I was specifically and only talking about just that, the body work that I received. (View that post here if you wish) There are other parts of the transaction that should always be considered as you decide on who and when you are going to have your paint and body work done.

I am going to share my journey to get the car painted with Jeff Kleiner. I fully understand that Jeff is a very well-respected builder and painter of the Factory Five community. And I also know that what I am going to share is going to ruffle a lot of feathers, but this is and has been my experience and I also know that after talking to several others, it was their experience as well. I also know that several of our fellow builders have gone other directions to have their paint and body work completed because of remarkably similar experiences with Jeff Kleiner.

So you ask what has me feeling this way and feeling so strongly that I would post this in a public forum. It all really boils down to how I was treated as a paying customer. Remember, while I do not believe that Jeff Kleiner is an official vendor of the factory five forum, many people have chosen to promote and hire Jeff to do their paint and body work. So what did I expect to receive from Jeff Kleiner as a paying customer? I expected first fantastic paint and body work and perhaps equally important, open and easy communication. I expected timely completion of the work that I hired Jeff for and updates throughout the process. I expected that when I was told something would be done, it would be done as promised. Jeff Kleiner while he may do fantastic body work and relatively good paint work, he lacks any resemblance of good customer service.

Let me explain.
I immediately got onto Jeff’s waiting list at the beginning of my build back in Aug 2018. Jeff told me it was going to be about 9 – 12 months so this was perfect as I planned to drive in gelcoat for a while after I completed the build, and I did. 10,000 miles worth. My time finally came up in November 2019, right at the same time I was working with BluePrint Engines to fix a problem I was having. The decision was made to postpone sending the car to Jeff until after I receive my engine back and installed it. Jeff told me that he would just move up the next job he had to do and move me in behind that person. This was perfect. So, Jeff started working on the next job, I sent my engine off to BPE and all was right on track. Now, in January 2020, I have my engine back in, the car is ready to go to Jeff. I called, left messages, and texted Jeff several times, before he finally returned my call. I asked him when he would be ready for my car. I could never get a straight answer out of him. In fact, he told me “You will get your car up here when I tell you you will.” This is what he told me, a paying customer. I should have dropped it right there and found another paint and body person. But I was one of the biggest promotors of Jeff Kleiner and I wanted my car done buy what I thought was one of the best. I waited and waited and then I see that Jeff took on more work after the one car that he moved into my place. In fact, all told, he completed 5 more cars during the time he was supposed to have mine in his shop. I will give a pass on one of those cars as it was a last minute one dropped on him by Dave Smith, the 25th Anniversary raffle car that had a tight deadline. But the other 4 cars, no pass given. He flat out treated me like I was nothing. Again, I should have run, found another painter, but no, I thought to myself, I am going to get my work done by the best, by Jeff Kleiner.

Finally, that day came when Jeff called me and said he was ready for me to bring my car up, it was next. This was the week of July 1st, 2020. I personally delivered my car to Jeff Kleiner 8 days later on July 9th. During that visit Jeff had two other cars in his shop, one that he was putting back together after paint and another one that looked to be getting very close to getting paint sprayed. Because of the extreme lack of communication over the previous several months, I made it a point to ask some very direct questions while I had Jeff in front of me. One of those questions was specifically how long it would take him to complete the work on my car. Remember, up until this day, I had always been told the generic answer of 6 – 8 weeks. During this face-to-face conversation, I asked this question, “you’ve always told me that it takes 6 – 8 weeks. Based on what you have here now, what do you think?” He told me my car was after that one, (gesturing at the one almost ready for paint) and because he would have his grandkids for a week during the summer, it would be 8 or 9 weeks. Great, a firm commitment of 8/9 weeks. I also had a small amount of work I wanted to do on my car when the body was off for the last time before paint and he was to contact me so I could make the 11 hour drive up there to do that work. This was all very well understood by Jeff and we had a plan. So, with this information, I left, expecting to return in 3 – 5 weeks to do some work and then again at the end of August to pick up my completed car.

Over the next several weeks, I had not heard from Jeff, I sent him text messages and even tried to call him. He would not respond. I asked him several time for some photos to put on my build thread, nothing. This is the way Jeff treats his customers, with little to no communication. Finally, Jeff reached out to me, well into September (weeks after my car should have been completely finished) to let me know I could come up and do that extra work I planned to do. I went there on September 19th.

Continued:

[BadAsp427]

Part 2:

At that point, I noticed another car that was literally going into the paint booth and asked, where that one came from. I knew based on my initial visit as well as the posts that Jeff had made that the two cars that were at his shop when I dropped off mine had been completed and gone. So, I felt this was a fair question as I had all ready waited over 11 weeks and my car was not even close to ready for the paint booth and he had another one in there. I was told, “that car was here when you dropped off your car. Perhaps it was in my other garage” Well that could have been, I did not push the issue, but I know I that he specifically told me I was “Next” when I dropped off my car. (FYI, I later, through a lot of investigation, and conversation with the owner, found out that that other car was in fact there, just out of my sight while I was there.) I was deceived by Jeff and told I’m next. So, I thought as I visited Jeff on September 19th, let’s reset the time clock. I again asked, “Now that you have that car about to be painted and mine where it is at, about how many more weeks do you need before I can come pick up mine?” Jeff then told me, 3 weeks. Ok, I said as I pulled out the calendar, 3 weeks is the 10th of October, Should I plan to be back up here then, I asked. Jeff refused to commit to that date, stating, “Oh, I don’t think it will be done by then” All I wanted from Jeff Kleiner, who I had waited on very patiently and at this point had paid $3000 was to tell me when it would be done. Jeff proceeded to give me a completely non committed answer by saying “It’s getting close, I’ll let you know when I get it done.” Oh, and by the way, while I was there on September 19th, I took a couple photos of my car. These were the first photos I got of my car because Jeff refused to take or send me any photos at all. Refused. That is the kind of customer service I received, and I have spoken to others who reported the same.

Now, Jeff had my car for a total of 11 weeks before my visit and it is my belief that the amount of work that had been completed at that point was done literally the day or two before, just to make me feel good. Now, of course I was getting very frustrated with the amount of time and lack of work, communication, photos etc. so I asked many questions to try and figure it out for myself. Jeff actually told me, “there are two people you don’t want to upset, your hairdresser and the person painting your car” Seriously, this is what he told his paying customer. This would have been great if he were only at 4 or 5 weeks in, but this was at 11 weeks and the job was not even close to being completed.

On Oct 25th I was able to get Jeff on the phone and he told me he was about 10 days out from painting. Ok, great I thought, finally after 15 weeks, it is getting close. I had also found that the best way for me to know what was happening to my car was by looking at my credit card statement. You see, the paint supply store was set up to charge my card directly whenever Jeff purchased supplies for my car. So, on November 9th, a couple days after a small charge on the card, (not the big one I was expecting for all the final paint supplies) I reached out to Jeff and asked, if he was able to get the paining done that he said would be done in 10 days. His response via text was simply “Not ready for color. You’ll be the first to know when it’s red” Well, my frustration level was at an all time high. I had been told many times over that past year, wait this long and this would be done. It never happened as I was promised. So I sent a text message explaining my frustration to Jeff. He responded with an exceptionally long text telling me all about his personal family issues and travels that had cause delay after delay after delay. I’m his customer, I do not need to hear about all of this. All I wanted was a straight answer, a commitment to completion. I never got that, not until I got the call to say, it is done.

Finally, on November 20th, I see the $1200 charge to my credit card from the paint supply store. This tells me Jeff must be getting close to painting my car. Finally. Now understand, we are now 19ish weeks into what was promised as an 8 week process. I have not heard from Jeff for several days after he purchased the paint. I text him and ask if he had been able to use up that product. He replied with a photo of my wheel center piece laying on a sprayed sample showing how it matched. Frustrated, as I only wanted an straightforward answer, I told him “I’m not amused” as I was expecting to see a photo of my red car. His reply, to his paying customer, was to send me one photo of the painted car with this comment, “How about if I leave you partially amused?” Seriously, this is not the time to joke around, and “amuse” your customer with a smart-*** response.

I waited a total of 21 weeks for Jeff Kleiner to finally tell me my car was finished and ready to go. During that 21 weeks, I did all I could do to leave him alone, not bother him. And mostly, not rush him. I wanted the best paint job I could get. As a paying customer I would have been happy if I had been told, the work will take 15-20 weeks. I would not have understood as I know 6 to 8 weeks is more than enough time for any reputable paint and body shop to complete one of these cars. But, if that had been the expectation, I would have been good with that. But that is not what Jeff tells his “customers” he instead tells them one thing and then does not reply to them until he is ready. He does not commit and therefore never has to meet a commitment. He has completely forgotten the term or concept of paying customer and providing great or even good customer service.

You know that there are many times when a photo can make a car’s paint look better than it really is or there are times when it just doesn’t do it justice. I will tell you, that the paint work as I received it from Jeff looks much better in the photos than in person. Jeff rushed the finish of my car. It was almost Christmas and he had family plans. He allowed lots of dust, lint, debris to remain in the different layers of the process. I pointed out a couple during the morning when I picked it up and he just said, “looks like you have a little bugger there” Well, I took my car immediately to another professional, experienced painter to have a final cut and buff completed. This painter was able to buff out most of the imperfections, but there are still over 20 that can be seen if you really look close. There is even a rather large 6-8” sag in the clear coat that was missed by Jeff Kleiner and is still there even after a lot of work to remove it by my 2nd painter. Now, after all this extra work and money, I can say that photos of my car do not do the paint justice. Had Jeff just spent a few more hours on his work, he could have given me a much better final product.

I have hit only the main points of my experience with Jeff Kleiner. There are many other specific interactions and problems with the overall experience that I had, but I will not bore you with those, I think I’ve made my point.

So again, here is the “Bottom Line:” while Jeff Kleiner is very much applauded and idolized here on the forum, his customer service and communication skills are very much lacking. His body work is great, and his paint skills/abilities are good. If you are on his waiting list, you should be aware of this and accept it if you wish. Just know, you will get fantastic body work and a fairly good paint job. If you are not willing to put up with his antics, poor communication, lack of time commitments, etc., then there are several others that can do the same job, perhaps even better. I hope this long post in some way helps you with your build and plans as you move forward.

After all of the headache and frustration, I’m again happy with my build, it is not for sale and I’m driving it every chance I can get.

[RBachman]

Same for me. I rushed to get mine complete in time for paint based on what I was intentionally led to believe. It's more than six months after that expected timeframe and still no word or contact despite my efforts. Life's too short to deal with it. Maybe it's my military background, but I don't tolerate disrespect, deceit, lack of professionalism, or intentionally misleading expectations very well. Nor am I going to beg a "professional" to do their job properly. When I heard that the quality of work was dependent on sucking all this up and being happy about it, I booked with a more professional and experienced shop. I have too much self respect to beg a professional to do their job and meet the expectations they set.

[RaserX]

I understand the difficulties faced by body shops when it comes to customer satisfaction. As
a teen I worked at a bodyshop. The particular shop owner was way worse than described here and somehow managed to stay ii business until a tragedy claimed the shop. By that time I had joined the military and like bachman choose not to deal with the mite eccentric owners. Though Mr. Kliner has the right to do thing however works for him. I hope that this thread ,rather than a bash fest, is viewed in a more constructive light, given all
the positive response from paint Jobs he has done.

[Duke]

Clearly it's not the norm around here for for people to have built other projects and experienced 'paint jail'. From most of my friends who have had full body off paint jobs done, it's not uncommon to see 12-18 months at 40K+ invoices. I'm sure Scott can chime in here about his 911 experience vs. his cobra experience.

I'm not defending Jeff, as I don't know any of you beyond Scott personally, but it sounds like he has some areas where he could improve in the way he runs his business. Painters are an interesting group of people from my experience. That said: You got your car painted in under 6 months in the crazy year of 2020 and on budget. I would say that's a pretty big win.

[Scott Walker]

Hi all, I just want to comment on my recent experience with Jeff Kleiner. He clarified for me twice that he would not be able to get to my car or even accept my car until the end of 2021. After that, it would be a 12 week lead time. Perhaps he's learned how to communicate with and manage his customer's expectations better. I can't work with that timing, so I'll be using someone else. But thought this was relevant for this posting.

[Erik W. Treves]

I am going to assume you communicated all this to him directly? and "worked" it out (otherwise this is a violation of the forum rule, fysa) - things happen and there are always exceptions to any plan or norm. I have seen Jeff's work first hand and it is top notch - as is his help to others on the forum when they try to paint the cars themselves....or in any other aspects of the build. As was said at the beginning - he is HIGHLY regarded in this circle (and in mine). If he was closer to me he would paint every one of my cars ANyway glad you are driving the car - that's the best part of the build.... get some miles on it - the enjoyment is just beginning. I am going to close the thread so it doesn't grow legs. Thank you.

[David Hodgkins]

Re-opening this thread after I have had conversations with everyone involved.

I want to thank Erik for not deleting the thread and simply "pausing" it while I was given a chance to investigate.

Jeff is a one-man show. He is not technically currently a Supporting Vendor, although he has been is the past and may be again in the future.

A major goal of this forum has been to support the cottage industry that surrounds our hobby. We have rules surrounding supporting vendors, which if this was the case Erik would be correct in closing the thread until Jeff was made aware of the situation and both parties have been given a chance to work things out. That is not the case with non-supporting vendors, like **********. Someone recently created a thread to warn people about problems with them and the thread remained. People were not bashing, just giving a heads-up. I think that feedback is good for our community and therefore it is allowed.

Now to Jeff. He, as I stated earlier, is not a current vendor. (that's actually my fault but not really part of this conversation) The thread therefore should have remained open. I'm not faulting Erik in this case though. He simply paused the thread and contacted me to look into it. Jeff is a one-man operation, doing his best to combine his love for these cars, and has created a way to express his love for the build, and make some money. Jeff's problem, as I see it, is that he has been so incredibly giving of his time and expertise that he has created too much interest and work for himself. And, being a one-man operation he got stretched too thin last year with shifting schedules and a family situation he had to deal with. But he is a competent builder with many satisfied customers. I think he has just been stretched too thin. And he apparently needs to do a better job managing expectations and timelines.

All the small vendors we have do their best to deliver. They know threads like this do them no good. But sometimes I think we all have needed a reminder that we need better communication. Communication is almost always at the root of poor customer satisfaction. It's a hard lesson to hear sometimes, but if we take it as CONSTRUCTIVE criticism we can become better at what we do.

I think BadAsp427 had that intention. He took the time to lay out his case and was not vindictive in his analysis and I'm sure it took a while to write his review.

I think in this case, having heard both sides, that there was a breakdown in communications. And that's worth talking about.

[frankeeski]

I'll preface this by saying that Jeff and I have been friends for more than 20 year. In all those years we've seen many of these PSA (public service announcement) threads. Both for/against supporting vendor and non. This is a small group of enthusiasts and that same guy you're bad mouthing today may be the same guy that ends up helping you on the side of the road when your "perfectly built" car breaks down. I know this first hand because a particular guy that had decided to get into it with me a few years back broke down outside David Hodgkins house one year at a BBQ, the night before the HB Cruise-in. Guess who had the socket and wrench he needed in his truck to get this guy back on the road so he could make it to the Cruise-In the next day. You know, I never even got a thank you for the tool loan? As a matter of fact, Kleiner was the one that came into David's back yard and asked me if I had any tools in my work truck. The internet and the forum have a long memory. So don't be surprised if other members/vendors here don't jump in wanting to help you after this roasting. Since I talk to Jeff often, I may have a bit of insight regarding some of the "issues" with this. And while I didn't have a name to go with this before, I now have two since the scheduling and delivery details seem to make this really clear. There are glaring omissions to the 2 page scorched earth story above. I can't and won't speak for Jeff. It appears he's chosen to just move on. This Country is in the midst of one of the most deadly pandemics we have ever seen and I see no mention of traveling across 5 States with a family member know positive with the Covid virus. Possibly exposing Jeff and everyone else you came in contact with. If that was purposely omitted, what else was?

[silver_pilate]

Jeff Kleiner did not paint my car, but he was one of two that I was wanting to do the body work and paint. In 2018, I had several conversations with Jeff K and got on his "wait list." What I have come to understand in building my car and being on the forum for multiple years is that anything can and does happen with individual builds (mine included). As such, Jeff's wait list is really just a cue of folks who are interested. Because of the unknown and chaos that can happen with so many builds/builders on the list, there is just no way to say, "John is #1, Scott is #2, Matt is #3 on the list...." If you happen to be ready and Jeff happens to have a spot open, lucky you. That's just the way it is.

I spoke to Jeff several more times to give updates as to where I was in the process, and he was always responsive, calling back if I left a message, but I tried not to bug him, because I know how busy he is. Ultimately, my drivetrain was delayed a bit, and when I was finally ready to seriously look to get it to him, he was scheduling out nearly a year, even though I had spoken with him and was on his list well before. He was very upfront with me, and he ultimately encouraged me to talk to my other top choice in doing the bodywork/paint, Jeff Miller. Since he and da Bat talk regularly, he had even given him a heads up about my situation/build, and I was able to slide right into a slot with Miller.

Much of scheduling with guys like the Jeffs is about luck. I just lucked into a spot with Miller about 6 weeks after I called him because he happened to be finishing up a pile of work and was just starting to look for more. At that same time, Kleiner's pile of work had increased significantly from when I first spoke with him. I had no illusions that Kleiner would hold a spot for me or bump someone's car who was ready for bodywork and paint before mine just because I had spoken with him earlier. Ultimately, it's about keeping work in the shop, and anyone who is going to use a cottage business like the Jeffs has to understand that wait and completion times can be widely variable depending on tons of factors.

Anyway, if I had to do it all over again, I'd have absolutely no qualms about having Kleiner (or Miller) do the amazing work they do on another car. However, I know that in making that decision, it means I have to kill and bury my 21st century sense of entitlement and instant gratification and instead bend with the winds of whatever the season holds.

[yahrt]

I was looking to send Jeff an email of support and gratitude for all of the helpful and timely comments he posts to our many questions. The link to his profile seems broken, I sincerely hope that he remains part of the forum. For those of you that have the ability to contact him, I hope you do and let him know that there is a huge majority are fans and followers, and that many would feel lost without his active participation on this forum.

[GoDadGo]

Just remember that there are two sides to every story.
Also remember that oftentimes some folks will NEVER see eye to eye nor get along.
Maybe more people should attempt to do their own bodywork and paint or farm the work out to a local body shop instead.
My bet is that they won't be really happy if they do either since bodywork sucks and most body shops WON'T touch these cars.
As for me, I'm a HUGE fan of Jeff Kleiner and others like Edwardb (Sir Paul) and 65 Cobra Dude (Col. Henry) and likely always will be.

[RBachman]

My opinion is based on my personal experience, and this is it.

No one is getting "bad mouthed." Members are being informed about the questionable quality and unethical business practices of someone who promotes his business on this Forum. While Jeff treated me and others horribly, delayed my build, cost me thousands, slid others in ahead of me, intentionally misled me and refused to communicate, I sincerely hope he gets his business practices turned around and lives up to his reputation. It's the best outcome for everyone, especially Jeff. If not, why promote him to unsuspecting members? We're here to help each other, not lead them into an abyss. My integrity is far more valuable, and we're here to help our members, not harm them. I sure wish someone had warned me, and not blindly promoted a less than ethical business. My car would be complete and I'd already be building the one my wife wanted if Jeff was honest. But this aggravation with Jeff talked her out of that. Apparently, she didn't want to have a $70k regret sitting around for a year waiting on an unethical business in the hopes she may need to borrow a wrench someday.

I'll preface this by saying that Jeff and I have been friends for more than 20 year. In all those years we've seen many of these PSA (public service announcement) threads. Both for/against supporting vendor and non. This is a small group of enthusiasts and that same guy you're bad mouthing today may be the same guy that ends up helping you on the side of the road when your "perfectly built" car breaks down. I know this first hand because a particular guy that had decided to get into it with me a few years back broke down outside David Hodgkins house one year at a BBQ, the night before the HB Cruise-in. Guess who had the socket and wrench he needed in his truck to get this guy back on the road so he could make it to the Cruise-In the next day. You know, I never even got a thank you for the tool loan? As a matter of fact, Kleiner was the one that came into David's back yard and asked me if I had any tools in my work truck. The internet and the forum have a long memory. So don't be surprised if other members/vendors here don't jump in wanting to help you after this roasting. Since I talk to Jeff often, I may have a bit of insight regarding some of the "issues" with this. And while I didn't have a name to go with this before, I now have two since the scheduling and delivery details seem to make this really clear. There are glaring omissions to the 2 page scorched earth story above. I can't and won't speak for Jeff. It appears he's chosen to just move on. This Country is in the midst of one of the most deadly pandemics we have ever seen and I see no mention of traveling across 5 States with a family member know positive with the Covid virus. Possibly exposing Jeff and everyone else you came in contact with. If that was purposely omitted, what else was?

[Fixit]

I have to kill and bury my 21st century sense of entitlement and instant gratification and instead bend with the winds of whatever the season holds.

[Sdonnel]

I am currently in line to have Jeff paint my car. It would have been painted last year IF my employer had not cut our hours and pay by 20%. While I have the money sitting in the bank, the prospect of potentially not having a job necessitated me pulling out of line. A short phone call to Jeff and he agreed that my plan to delay was best if I felt that was necessary. Once our company performance rebounded, I called Jeff to get back on the list. It turned out to be one year later. When I first planned to build my car, I emailed Jeff 1 month before I even picked up my kit. He laughed when my response to "How far along are you?" was "I pick it up next month". He gave no illusions that my wait would be anything shorter than 12-15 months. I have seen Jeff's work and that's why I'm waiting. I have also seen him laying under someone else's cobra in standing water at the London Cobra Show making sure they made the Saturday parade. Like everyone else, Jeff has family that needs his attention too. He's a one man shop due to how he likes it done HIS way. While there have been negative experiences, I felt it necessary to provide a counter point to show that like all of us, Mr. Kleiner is human.

Scott

[Papa]

I told myself I would not get involved in this discussion, but I really feel I need to offer my experience. First, I had a local painter lined up that I'd seen examples of his work at several local car shows and was very impressed. I contacted this painter and discussed what I was building. He'd never worked on one of these cars, but didn't seem concerned about it. He offered to let me bring the car to him once I had it ready for paint and he would work it into his schedule. He indicated it would be in his shop anywhere from six to twelve months and would not commit to a real timeline. His work keeps him in high demand. It also demands a premium price tag. As I was talking about this on this forum, Jeff Kleiner offered to talk to my painter and offer advice on how to fit the body and get the dreaded driver's side door to be right. I was shocked and impressed by this offer and reached out to Jeff to discuss it with him. During that call, I ended up asking Jeff to do my car. I had concerns about my local painter getting the body right, no concerns about the quality of the finished paint work. Having grown up in my dad's body shop, I understand the difference and weighed my desire for getting the body right over the show-quality and very expensive paint work. I also wanted to feel comfortable driving the car and not being worried about a rock chip. Jeff's costs were more in line with what my desires for use were if that makes any sense.

Fast forward just over a year. I received a call from Jeff that I could coordinate transportation and get my car to him. From that point forward, I was his customer and he regularly communicated with me. I didn't expect a call every day, but Jeff kept me informed about where he was in the process at each major point. Any time I called or texted him, he always answered or returned my calls/texts in a reasonable time and I never felt like I was being ignored. While my car was at his shop, it gave him a lot of grief that he had to deal with. First, my battery died and had to be charged. Not a big deal. The big issue was that the Sniper EFI really didn't respond well to having the engine run without the side pipes and went super rich to the point of fouling several plugs. Any other painter would have either ignored the issue or told me to arrange to get it taken care of before he would continue to work on the car. Jeff called me and offered to swap the plugs out and wouldn't accept a dime for his time to do so. This isn't a five minute job on my engine and required a special thin-walled socket to get at the plugs. Jeff never complained and did the work. As he was working on my car, he asked me about the front-end alignment. Well, I had just eye-balled it and it was way off. Jeff took the time to get it dialed in for me, again, not accepting a dime for his time.

Fast forward again to the finish line. As the work progressed, Jeff sent me plenty of pictures that I'd asked him to do as the project went though all the stages from prep to final assembly. Jeff let me know to coordinate transportation and the car was shipped back to me. When I discussed the finished car with Jeff, I'd commented on it looking "perfect", and he said otherwise. He let me know that there were a few imperfections and that they're never "perfect". When the car came out of the trailer, I was so excited to drive it that I took it around the block -- about two miles in my neighborhood. In that two miles, I had chipped the paint in a couple of spots on the rear lower quarters!! After calming down, I resigned myself to the fact that this car was going to be driven and that in Colorado, you will get chips and getting them right out of the gate, I could move past that concern. As I worked to complete the car, I identified the other imperfections that Jeff had alluded to. I can't lie that I would rather they weren't there, but again, it makes it easier for me to not stress over the paint when I want to drive the car. What I was most impressed by was the body fitment and the gaps on the panels. My doors close and latch by gravity, where before Jeff's work, I could barely latch the driver's door. My hood and trunk fit and rest flush in the recesses and operate smoothly. The upgraded weather strip Jeff uses is a nice upgrade and finishes the opening for the hood and trunk. The one area that I couldn't live with was the final polish and I had a specialist come and do the final polish to get it to what I wanted. Again, having grown up in a body shop, I understand that this is an art in and of itself and I was prepared for this additional step.

We all have strengths and weaknesses, but my request is that we not abuse people in this forum. I've spoken privately with several builders asking my honest opinions about my experience with Jeff and I believe I've been very honest with my responses to those questions and have not led anyone astray. Typically, it boils down to setting reasonable expectations about timelines, communication, and product quality and being honest with yourself on what you are looking for. I personally feel that Jeff was respectful and honest with me and went above and beyond my expectations in some areas as I described above. The paint isn't perfect, but if it were, I wouldn't want to drive the car. For what I paid, it's excellent and I'm proud to show the car to anyone that wants to see it.

I hope this adds to the discussion and isn't seen in any way as negative by anyone that reads it.

[Jeff Kleiner]

When Erik contacted me after Carl made his post he asked if I had seen it and when I told him that I had he asked if I wanted to make a reply. I told him that I was not interested in engaging into a he said-she said with a shiny happy person. He ultimately made the decision to close it. Dave Hodgkins called me a couple of days later and I told him the same however I was also hearing from former customers, friends, other professionals and even forum members who I've never conversed with previously who encouraged me to open up. Meanwhile Dave made the decision to unlock the thread so here goes.

As Dave mentioned I'm a one man show. I think I'm the only guy specializing in these cars who operates this way. This is no secret and customers know it. Every nut, screw rivet is done by me...every bit if filler is mixed and spread by me...every stroke with a piece of sandpaper is done by me...every bit of primer, surfacer, sealer, pigment and clear is sprayed by me. I bust my *** on these things and have never had a customer who fails to appreciate it. There aren't any helpers and I have the deteriorating hands and body to prove it. If unforseen things happen there isn't anyone to step into my place.

Like most times there are two sides to every story and differing recollections, interpretations and things either presented or taken out of context. Carl and I spoke at some point during his build but he got out of the lineup when he decided to send his 10K mile engine back to the vendor. He let me know when it came back and I told him that I would slot him into the mix as the next car to arrive. My 2020 started out slower than planned and stayed that way; the London Cobra Show raffle car that I DONATED the bodywork and paint for arrived to the chassis builder months later than planned and then came to me even later. Meanwhile I had other cars here and in process; I wasn't going to come to a complete standstill waiting for Carl's engine to come back to him (he later told me that took longer than he wanted it to also). While his car was down we were in communication a number of times about his color selections. I had samples mixed, sprayed them and sent them to him (all on my dime). Once he was running he asked when to bring it and I told him that I wouldn't be able to begin work on it until one of the three that remained (the LCS car was gone by this time) was finished. He was unhappy with the prospect of waiting and I told him as I had before (and as I've told others) "If the timeframe doesn't work for you feel free to go with another option and there won't be any hurt feelings on my end." A short time later we talked and he asked about dropping the car off in early July because he was planning to make a trip to visit his Dad and that would put him about halfway here. I told him that he could but he needed to understand that was for convenience and that didn't mean that I would be starting to work on it right away. He may be forgetting that---if indeed I told him "you're next" it meant next in line after these. I have no clue where he got the idea that I "completed 5 more cars during the time he was supposed to have mine in his shop". Cars belonging to Jim, Ed and Dave were all here and in various stages when Carl dropped his off. None moved in after those and ahead of him despite what he thinks to be the case. He thinks that cars that were here when he dropped his off were gone and others had come in when he visited in September...wrong...they all were completed in the order in which they arrived...Dave's car left on 7/21, Jim's on 9/5 and Ed's on 11/3. Carl if you have knowledge of the others please let me know because I never got paid for them!

I had delays, no doubt. One of the cars ahead of his had some major issues that took an inordinate amount of time to correct. We had a family health situation that took my wife and me out of town unexpectedly twice. Carl was unsympathetic, not even a so much as "I'm sorry to hear that" but was only concerned with his own disappointment. What I interpreted as a selfish attitude kind of put me into a frame of mind that told me that it was best to limit our conversations so when he sent a text again expressing his displeasure with the timeframe I replied back with:

"Hey Carl, Sorry that you are disappointed, I'm not happy with the delay either. Believe me I want the car gone from here as much as you do but sometimes circumstances keep things from going according to plan. I've had plenty of these, some of which you've been aware of---we didn't plan to have to drive our daughter and kids back to Virginia when she came down with Bronchitis while visiting here. We also didn't plan to have to return a couple of weeks later when she was hospitalized with double pneumonia. I didn't plan tor the tremendous number of extra hours that the car before you required due to what was the worst body I've ever received. I didn't plan to have to grind out and rebuild your door jambs at the 11th hour when I discovered that they had massive blowouts under the gelcoat (I don't think I told you about this). Those aren't excuses, just reasons why. You don't want me to shortcut and rush the job and even if you did I won't. I'm one guy here, working on your car every single day and no others until it is loaded into your trailer and on it's way back to South Carolina."

See what's in bold type above? That's what I told Carl yet he feels that "Jeff rushed the finish of my car. It was almost Christmas and he had family plans"....No, I did not rush the car. The car was finished and ready for pickup a full week and a half before it actually was picked up on 12/19. There were photos of it fully assembled posted to the build thread on 12/11 so Christmas rush doesn't apply. Sidenote; there are also about 3 dozen other photos that I took in various stages in that thread but yet it is alleged that I "refused to take or send me any photos at all"

I've gone on too much and more than I intended. Our personalities obviously don't gel, Carl was not happy with what I was telling him and I wasn't happy with him either. I think Carl is an OK guy and I'm sure in another situation things would have gone differently. First time I've ever had any disagreement with a customer; most have become true friends who I look forward to talking with regularly, seeing at events and even having as guests. Sometimes Carl seems happy with what he got for his $5,325 (yeah, that's what I charged him...didn't even charge for some of the extras), other times he's not, then he's pleased again like appeared to be the case with the post he made on 12/24. Lot's of ups and downs, highs and lows when dealing with him. At one point he told me that he was so disappointed with waiting that he just wanted to sell the car and not get it back...seems kind of odd to me but??? Truth be told I was very close to refunding his deposit and having him come and get it partially completed, and even discussed this with a couple of Pro Builders to see if they had ever had similar situations (they had), but obviously I didn't follow through and neither did Carl. When I talked with David H. a couple of days ago he said that maybe this can all serve as a learning experience and it has. I learned that when I get a feeling in my gut that a potential customer may not be a good match I need to listen to it and not take them, and I've done that.

Read what you wish into all of this; I'm finished here,
Jeff

[Otee453]

Please don't let this experience discourage anyone from their willingness to help others on the forum and elsewhere. I have found the professionals who have dedicated their business to these cars as some of the most helpful & professional people in any business. Where else can you find people who will give FREE advice or help you with something that results in NO SALE to them?

I started out trying to find the cheapest parts, etc... I've now come to doing everything I can to purchase from those people & businesses within this community, even if its costs a couple bucks more (many times they are the cheapest or comparable anyway).

[silver_pilate]

My opinion is based on my personal experience, and this is it.

No one is getting "bad mouthed." Members are being informed about the questionable quality and unethical business practices of someone who promotes his business on this Forum. While Jeff treated me and others horribly, delayed my build, cost me thousands, slid others in ahead of me, intentionally misled me and refused to communicate, I sincerely hope he gets his business practices turned around and lives up to his reputation. It's the best outcome for everyone, especially Jeff. If not, why promote him to unsuspecting members? We're here to help each other, not lead them into an abyss. My integrity is far more valuable, and we're here to help our members, not harm them. I sure wish someone had warned me, and not blindly promoted a less than ethical business. My car would be complete and I'd already be building the one my wife wanted if Jeff was honest. But this aggravation with Jeff talked her out of that. Apparently, she didn't want to have a $70k regret sitting around for a year waiting on an unethical business in the hopes she may need to borrow a wrench someday.

I can't help but feel (my opinion) that there is some hyperbole going on in your post along with your opinion. Also, the very large number of FORMER AND CURRENT CUSTOMERS recommending Jeff Kleiner's work are not doing so "blindly." They are doing so out of their experience. Your experience is obviously different than the vast majority. Perhaps it's time to ask the question of yourself as to why that might be the case? Also, if you are considering this car to be a $70,000 "regret" at this point, then about $64,000 of that regret is on you, not on Jeff.

[rich grsc]

Jeff, so many people with entitlement issues, children really.
Ignore them, you're alway good with me.

[Scott Meyer]

Amen Rich. When I saw this post I was flabbergasted. I remember seeing the OP update with how happy he was on Christmas Day with the way the paint and bodywork turned out:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post439006

Jeff has always been a stand up no-nonsense guy who I’ve know for 13+ years.

[David Hodgkins]

Guys, I'm monitoring this closely. If it devolves any further I'm closing it.

[TMartinLVNV]

Guys, this is a great opportunity to discuss an important topic. Let's not blow it by engaging in ad hominem attacks. It does nothing further the conversation.

This is a wonderful forum and Dave and folks are working very hard to keep it that way.

[silver_pilate]

The crux of all of this is the collision of customer expectations with provider realities.

Understanding the nature of the "business" you are commissioning is vital for the consumer. The biggest take away I can see for a busy cottage industry provider is to be as clear (and maybe even pessimistic) in your timelines as you can while providing the product you advertise at the level of finish you profess.

Under promise and over deliver.

From the consumer side, we must temper timeline expectations, be humble, and be grace-filled.

This ain't Walmart.

[Jstanding]

My car was one of the cars present at Jeffs during the time frame in question. I could go over discussed time lines VS actual time lines but I WILL NOT. The bottom line is Jeff is a priceless commodity to this forum and has helped almost everyone here in one way or another whether or not the even know it. As stated Jeff is a one man operation and his delays unfortunately become the delays of all his customers both in house and in queue. Jeff has his priorities in line and knows family comes first, as we all should. In my eyes it was very much worth the wait to have Jeff paint my car. His work is top notch and his prices are more that reasonable. My only regret was that due to time constraints and being a careful citizen during Covid times I did not get to spend some actual time with Jeff and enjoy a beverage but hope to change that at an event in the near future. Bottom line is I waited since I was 7 or so to have a car like this and Thanks to Dave Smith and the crew at FFR and people like Jeff I finally have my dream car. Thats 40+ years so what the hell is a few months longer in the big picture. THANK YOU JEFF !!!

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Just curious, the OP was happy/unhappy with the work, pick a post & most unhappy with the time frame Part 1 & Part 2 + response to frankeeski. What was the problem with the engine that required it to be returned to the vendor/builder? That specific event seems to be the start of this whole process running off the tracks?

[Blitzboy54]

I'm in line for Jeff's work and I plan to stay there. When I first contacted him I left him a voice mail and he got back to me when he could. We had a fantastic conversation about what I wanted out of my build and how I intended to use the car. He even recommended specific builders that had had experiences with some of the hardware I am planning on using and encouraged me to reach out. He asked that I stay in touch and told me standard turn around is 10-12 weeks. I am very happy with that estimate. He even gave me some specific color ideas when I shared my general scheme. I will be starting my build thread next month and hopefully Jeff will ultimately finish and paint my car.

I simply can't wait.

[Ed Mc]

My car was also there at this time and I will admit the actual timeline was longer than what was discussed, so much so Jeff delivered my car to me (gps Speedo showed top speed of 126 on the trip in the trailer so he was hustling!).

I wasn’t happy I missed the summer driving season, but when I received the car I was pleased with the results. My battery also gave him a hard time and the body was much worse than what he thought when I delivered it to him. I have the same color scheme as Papa and Jeff told me he thinks the color is cursed as every time he paints it the body work is harder than most.

The problem as I see it is Jeff is too nice of a guy and is too optimistic with his time lines. Additionally we are only concentrating on our own car whereas Jeff has a constant flow of cars coming at him, so our anticipation for the final product is hard to contain the longer it takes. Many of Jeff’s posts on this forum have helped me build a much better car, for which I am very thankful.

Going forward when time lines are set hopefully he estimate the time the same way I use when I try to think how long ago something happened; whatever amount of time you think it was double it and this is probably the correct amount of time.

[RBachman]

Your comment reads a bit inflaming with personal attack of innuendos, But I will respond without inflaming things.

I think it's great that you have a good paint experience. I truly mean that. In fact it's stories like yours that got me to trust Jeff to begin with. I WISH my experience was like yours. I WANTED it to be like yours. I would LOVE to have your experience. And if I had, you'd be reading how great a job it was. And I did my part to make it that way. Obviously we did not receive the customer service you did. As such, it's unreasonable to infer my experience is false because it doesn't align with yours. Your comment on this is akin to blaming a chicken when the farmer drops an egg. But, farmers almost never drop eggs, so it must be the chickens fault, right? Also, I do know a little about painting cars. I studied auto body for two years in Vocational school, and worked in a shop painting cars to save money for college. I've been a customer, manager, worker. And may have a tad more experience than some. I can promise that dates will slip a bit...both ways I lived it and got paid by it. I am completely understanding, and accepting of that. Heck, I EXPECT it. But I am not accepting of being kept in the dark without response to any inquiries while an implied start date is close to a year old. There have been no attempts to contact me or return an inquiry. Nor am I accustomed to that kind of disrespect from a service provider. And no one should be.

As for quality, I know what a good paint job is, and as I said, Jeff can do a good job, he's done hundreds of good jobs. But not all of them came out great. You can ask Carl about his, (Or maybe that's just paint hyperboles? LOL).

About the regret? Yes, putting $70k into a car and have it sit a year after what a Business told me to expect, will definitely give me regrets. I also regret buying a Ford F250 that was taken back on a lemon law. But using your logic, that was my fault because many people have Fords that work great...it must be me. Regardless, letting an operational project car sit unused for a year past an estimated paint date with no end in sight and no communication is definitely gonna' give me regrets for putting that much time, effort and money into a toy that I don't get to play with through no fault of my own.

I can't help but feel (my opinion) that there is some hyperbole going on in your post along with your opinion. Also, the very large number of FORMER AND CURRENT CUSTOMERS recommending Jeff Kleiner's work are not doing so "blindly." They are doing so out of their experience. Your experience is obviously different than the vast majority. Perhaps it's time to ask the question of yourself as to why that might be the case? Also, if you are considering this car to be a $70,000 "regret" at this point, then about $64,000 of that regret is on you, not on Jeff.

QUOTE=silver_pilate;441134]I can't help but feel (my opinion) that there is some hyperbole going on in your post along with your opinion. Also, the very large number of FORMER AND CURRENT CUSTOMERS recommending Jeff Kleiner's work are not doing so "blindly." They are doing so out of their experience. Your experience is obviously different than the vast majority. Perhaps it's time to ask the question of yourself as to why that might be the case? Also, if you are considering this car to be a $70,000 "regret" at this point, then about $64,000 of that regret is on you, not on Jeff.[/QUOTE]

[silver_pilate]

Your comment reads a bit inflaming with personal attack of innuendos, But I will respond without inflaming things.

I think it's great that you have a good paint experience. I truly mean that. In fact it's stories like yours that got me to trust Jeff to begin with. I WISH my experience was like yours. I WANTED it to be like yours. I would LOVE to have your experience. And if I had, you'd be reading how great a job it was. And I did my part to make it that way. Obviously we did not receive the customer service you did. As such, it's unreasonable to infer my experience is false because it doesn't align with yours. Your comment on this is akin to blaming a chicken when the farmer drops an egg. But, farmers almost never drop eggs, so it must be the chickens fault, right? Also, I do know a little about painting cars. I studied auto body for two years in Vocational school, and worked in a shop painting cars to save money for college. I've been a customer, manager, worker. And may have a tad more experience than some. I can promise that dates will slip a bit...both ways I lived it and got paid by it. I am completely understanding, and accepting of that. Heck, I EXPECT it. But I am not accepting of being kept in the dark without response to any inquiries while an implied start date is close to a year old. There have been no attempts to contact me or return an inquiry. Nor am I accustomed to that kind of disrespect from a service provider. And no one should be.

As for quality, I know what a good paint job is, and as I said, Jeff can do a good job, he's done hundreds of good jobs. But not all of them came out great. You can ask Carl about his, (Or maybe that's just paint hyperboles? LOL).

About the regret? Yes, putting $70k into a car and have it sit a year after what a Business told me to expect, will definitely give me regrets. I also regret buying a Ford F250 that was taken back on a lemon law. But using your logic, that was my fault because many people have Fords that work great...it must be me. Regardless, letting an operational project car sit unused for a year past an estimated paint date with no end in sight and no communication is definitely gonna' give me regrets for putting that much time, effort and money into a toy that I don't get to play with through no fault of my own.

There were no intended personal attacks on you in my post; sorry if you read into them in that manner. I do think that fault can be found in many places, and people refuse to explore if there is any culpability on their own part in any negative situation. It's just a part of our human nature, mine included, and it's something I have to work on myself. It's something that Jeff needs to consider as well, so he can clarify/improve his communication processes in situations like yours. I'm also not trying to invalidate your experience, but it is part of a small n out of a much larger sample size. As you said, there are the exceptions to any trend.

As to the comment about regret, I can see where you were going with it now. I've wanted to own one of these cars since I was kid. It was a dream come true to build it. It was a dream come true when it was sent back to me painted. It was a dream come true when got it legal on the street. I can see how a bad experience with a painter or other provider would sour things, but in the end, you'll have an amazing car to show for all the hassle.

The main thing I found interesting is that you would write words/phrases like unethical, questionable quality, intentional misleading, etc. which is why I bolded them. That all seemed a bit inflaming with personal attack of innuendos, especially since he didn't even paint your car.

Regardless, I'm not here to white knight for anyone, so I'm done responding. I'm sorry you had a bad experience and wish you the best in completing your build to your liking. Maybe a nice long drive in your roadster when it's done will help you feel better with where you ended up.

[ydousurf]

I wanted to chime in and give my thoughts... Why? I'm not sure, but figure I would do so anyway. I do not know either Jeff or Carl, but I have seen Jeff's work up close. And I also followed along with Carl's build too, specifically since it was an anniversary edition and I'm interested in all builds, but these do catch my eye to see what each builder is doing.

To start, the car is beautiful, Carl! I'm not a fan of red, and for that matter, on any car. However, there have been a few recent red painted cars and I'm like, yeah, I'd own that! So, you car is very beautiful and don't let this hiccup in this part of the experience ruin your dream or leave you with the a sliver of displeasure. As you said, get in the car and just enjoy it. People are going to love it! They're going to smile and smile right back! You achieved a goal that not many people can reach, don't let anything ruin that great feeling of building and owning one of these beauties. You did it!

As for Jeff, I have seen his work on (Papa) Dave's roadster. And I completely agree with Dave on his input. The body work was awesome and the paint was very good, and I would have him paint mine in an instant! That said, again, I too live in CO and plan to drive mine as often as I can. Heck, I'm sure I'll eventually put a leather bra/front cover on it, just to avoid the rock and chip damage that is sure to come. Cause like they say, it's that first scratch that's always the toughest and I know I'll get my share of them. That's why Jeff's paint is very much within my standards and it will fit in my plan just perfectly. I don't want show car paint, since I plan to drive mine. I want something that looks great and I can live with, since the chips, dings and scratches are certainly going to come.

As for time, I'm not going to take a side, since it honestly no longer matters, it's now in the past anyway. I do know when I hear of people on this forum complain about time and waiting for some part or whatever --- just stop it! Go work on other areas of the build, or go spend quality time with your family and friends. We all have to-do-list's and a lot of them are not on the build notepad. Don't neglect all your other interests you have. Parts will eventually arrive, have patience, they'll come.

As an artist myself and having done body work too, you absolutely do not rush that person(s). It takes a lot of work to complete these cars just right. I can't imagine all that work and nobody really ever likes to feel pressure. But I also know that this is one area that I'll turn to the pros like Jeff K. or Jeff M. and will respect that time lines can and maybe skewed. Remember, pretty much all of us have waited all this time to complete these and honestly ask yourself, what's a little more gonna hurt?

As for you Jeff, I do hope you family is safe and everyone is healthy. I think you put it perfect, you know when to say no and that my friend, is a good thing! However, I do hope you're still spraying when it's my turn to get in line, since I'm a couple years out still and I will wait patiently --- it's something my Dad taught me!

And Carl, I hope your family is safe and healthy too and that you also realize that we are with you as well. We all waited for these dreams that we build and we try to build them flawlessly. I know I have been trying my best, but sometimes mistakes are made, not intentional, but it does happen. I've got a few on mine. I think it would be unfair to try and find fault, since this is/was between you and Jeff. You have a great build thread and stay active on the site. Take pride in your accomplishment! Your car looks great and I'd be proud of it if it was mine. So go enjoy your dream and may safe roads always find you...

Anyway, in closing, I think it was good for the thread to come back open for discussion, Dave H. I think it gave Carl a place to vent, sometimes we need to do that. And of course, I would only support it if he didn't go to Jeff first. I also think it points out what Jeff is up against. He is only human and a one-man-show. Jeff was able to educate all of us much further on all that he does behind the scene that we probably don't ever ask or realize. He's putting out a great product and like so many, 2020 gave us some really strange and crazy challenges and I'm sure Jeff did his best to meet deadlines for everyone, accordingly.

And lastly, let's definitely not let threads and "constructive criticism" open wounds on this site to fester into negativity. Instead, we should support one another and please by all means please, make sure to continue to contribute. If it's ridicule you add, you're not being helpful, maybe don't type it!? Seriously! Let's continue to make this a really "cool atmosphere" which is made up of a lot of wonderful people out here. Which is exactly why it make this forum a special place. I've learned a great deal from all of you! And to single out Jeff K. again, I also appreciate all that he does bring to the site, with his complete insight and expertise to each post he adds input in. Let's all continue to make this a place to meet and share ideas and certainly our thoughts and hurdles for help, since there is no other one like this out on the interwebs. And just like with all other threads out here, I've learned a great deal from this one!

Stepping down from my side pipe ~~~~(:>-

Dj

[TMartinLVNV]

I have the feeling that if anyone drove up to a bar/Starbucks in their Cobra, and saw another Cobra there driven by Carl, Dave, Richard, Ed, Kevin, Frank, Erik, Scott, John, or anyone else, they would have a great time discussing cars, builds, and driving. One person may even up buying a drink for the other.

[RBachman]

I can see that now, but not intended, Here are some examples...just examples...where these could come from:

It's unethical to give a customer false expectations that you cannot meet.
Knowingly giving or allowing a customer to have false expectations on services, is intentionally misleading them to believe something that is not true.
The trash in that paint makes me question the quality. Hence, it is of questionable quality.

Here's what it takes to turn the entire thing around
Communicate!
Don't ignore paying customers and give them realistic expectations.
Communicate!
If you cannot meet those expectations, tell them
Communicate!
Man-up when you're wrong
Communicate!
These are dream builds for a lot of people. Many save for years and make significant sacrifices to own one. Don't ruin it for them, keep it fun.
Communicate!
Respect your customers, respect their patronage, respect the trust they put in you, and respect their time.
Communicate!

[David Hodgkins]

You've said your piece Richard. Now I'm asking you to stand down.

EDIT: For everyone else, that's also a strong request to not engage in tit-for-tat. I don't want to have to close the thread.

[BadAsp427]

First off, I want to thank EVERYONE who has shared their thoughts on this forum thread. They are all good information for others to learn from and make informed decisions from. That was the point of my sharing my experiences.
There have been some questions created by some of the replies and I’ll attempt to answer the gest of the here as well as reply directly to the post that Jeff shared. Let me start.

The one question that came up by several as well as it was even touched on with Jeff’s response, that question is am I or am I not happy with the work completed. This is where I am guessing that many are not getting the point of my post. As I stated in my post on my build thread and even linked to in this thread, Yes I’m very VERY happy with the body work that was completed by Jeff. This thread has nothing to do with my satisfaction with the outcome of the body work. I only touched slightly on my feelings about the paint work. This thread is about the way I was treated as a customer during the process. So I’ll break it down another way. Jeff stated that I paid him $5,325 for his work. This is totally correct. In addition to that, I also paid $1,860 for the paint and supplies as well as another $500 for the final cut and buff from another professional painter. So all in, I have $7,685 invested in the paint and body. This is not a huge amount and I recognize that, but again, that is not the purpose of this overall thread. In my opinion, I can break down what I feel I received for the $5,325 that I paid to Jeff like this. I paid him $4,725 for the fantastic body work and prep to painting work and $500 for his final painting and cut/buff work and I got about $100 in communication and customer service.

But the main thing about this post boils down to customer service, communication and commitment.

So I’ve discussed the lack of communication portion of my experience, and will again below, but what about the customer service part. Sure perhaps I’m just a hard to please customer, Or am I. Here are a couple examples with photo/video support. Both the video and the photo have been shared with Jeff.
For my first example. As I stated in my original post during the day that I picked up my car from Jeff’s shop. I was walking around the car and admiring the work. Not looking closely, just taking it all in. I noticed a spot in the paint near the drive’s side roll bar. I pointed it out to Jeff and simply asked “what about this spot Jeff, do you think I’ll be able to buff this out” His reply to me was “oh looks like you have a little booger there.” End of conversation. I think a better way to treats a customer who just waited 21 weeks and paid $5,325 right could have responded with something perhaps more like this. “oh, looks like you have a little booger there, I must have missed it. Give me a couple minutes and I should be able to clean that up” and then do it.

Here is another example; when I received my car back from the final cut and buff from a professional painter, it was discovered and pointed out that there was a large sag in the paint on the passenger rear quarter panel (See Video)I shared this exact video with Jeff and the response was a phone call and apology and I was told “If I had seen that, I would most certainly would have fixed it.” To me that was a great start. But as a customer who did just pay $5,325 dollars and waited 21 weeks to get this in the finished product, I think a better, more customer service orientated answer would have gone like this. Carl, I’m so sorry I did not see this. I know you just paid another painter to do the cut and buff and it still there. I would be happy to fix it if you can bring it back here or perhaps you can have that other painter repair it and I’ll cover that cost.” Or something… not nothing. I would not have expected to find this on a $500 paint job from Macco, would you? And if I did, I’m certain the customer service response would have been much different.


So here is the video and a photo that I took AFTER the final cut and buff by a professional painter who spent 10 straight hours working to make Jeff’s paint job look the best he could. The first photo is of my hood and front fenders and the blue tape identifies all the “boogers” that can still be seen in the paint. And the video shows the 8” sag in the clear coat. Remember, this thread is not about the paint job I received, it is about the way Jeff treated a customer who just waited 21 weeks and paid $5,325.



In Jeff's words, Boogers.JPG


To continue and address some of Jeff’s comments from his post above. Jeff, I’m sure that you got paid for every car you have had in your shop and completed. I did not say that you had 4/5 cars in the shop after I brought mine to you. I was talking about the number of cars that you completed after Alc’s car, that is when you had said I would bring mine up to you as you moved his up to take my car’s place while I swapped out the engine. Again, I give a pass on the raffle car.
You state that you have sent and I’ve even posted in my build thread all the photos that you sent me. Very true, you sent me a bunch of fantastic photos. And I’m not sure when you took them, but I can tell you that the very first time you sent me a photo of my car at your shop was sent in an email on November 15th. This was 18 weeks after I brought my car to your shop. This is the first time you sent any photos. Again, this is the purpose of this original post, lack of communication or customer service.

Now I also want to enlighten those following this post with “the other side of the story” of the message that Jeff quoted in his post concerning being sorry for taking so long and telling me of his family issues that he was dealing with. The reason he finally sent me some kind of update as to why it was taking so long was because of this message that I had texted to him.
“OK. When we talked back on the 25th (October) you had said it would be about 10 days before you would have it ready to put color on so that’s why I was curious. And I haven’t gotten any photos so I don’t know where it’s at in the process. So I figured I would ask!

Jeff, I’m sure you can understand why I would be a little anxious. You’ve had the car long time, a lot longer than I figured, and I’m sure longer than even you planned to have it. And to make it even harder on me, for whatever reason you’ve chosen not to send any kind of photos or updates to me unless I ask for them and even then, I’m not able to add to my build thread or answer all the questions I get from other builders because of the limited information you are sharing with me. I am just getting excited, as I should be, to get my car back after 4 months. Anyone and everyone that you talk to boasts of the great work and paint jobs and body work you do; this is why I brought it to you. Back in July when I dropped it off with you, I specifically asked you based on what your schedule was going to be whether it would be six or eight weeks to completion and you specifically told me it would be eight weeks. I have not complained that it’s been longer, but I have never received any kind of a reasoning as to why it had to go so long. I hope that I can get my car back before Thanksgiving.”

It was after this text that Jeff replied with his quoted reply. My reply to him was: “Thank you Jeff for the reply. That’s all I really needed, just to be able to understand why the delay. I’m not disappointed, I know I’m going to get an excellent job. It’s just a lack of communication I guess that is the most frustrating. Please send some photos! Thanks again for the reply.”

Same day, after this exchange, Jeff explained to me that his phone was broken, and he could not take or send photos and that he had a bunch on his camera. A few days later, on the Nov 17th, I received the first photos of my car that had been at his shop since July 10th.

During a phone conversation on Oct 25th, Jeff told me it would be “getting color” in about 10 days, that would have been around Nov 4th, I figured it would be the weekend after that. You put color on it 3 weeks later than you had told me it would be. Had you communicated this delay; it would not have been that big of deal. But you must remember, there is a lot of other things involved. I had to plan and let my employer know when I was going to take time off to come and get it. So based on the conversation you had with me, if it is painted on Nov 4th as you stated it would be, I then have to guess, because you sure would not commit to a finish date, when I will be coming to get it. Based on the very non committed responses and the lack of responses, I had been requesting and canceling request for my time off from work several times. Had I just had some timely communication, I would have been much more understanding and a lot less frustrated.

Sure, Jeff is very helpful on the thread and on Facebook to builders. I’ve never said anything to the contrary.

So, Jeff, I believe that what you need to learn from this is to be open and communicate with your customers when there is going to be a change to whatever you have told them to begin with. Answer text messages as often as you post on the forums or Facebook. All your customer wants to know is what is happening, especially if it is contrary to expectations that you have given. And one last thing, be willing to commit to completing a job, share that commitment with your customer and then meet that commitment.

[j.miller]

BOY O BOY O BOY,,,,, THIS IS A TOUGH ONE FOR ME. First of all J.Kleiner is the "Robin 2 my "Batman", the Ying in my Yang, The Hole in my Donut (Yeah, best not to go to deep into that one), the "Little Buddy" to my "Skipper"...the Ginger to my Marya…(we won't go there). So I guess I have to say "SOMETIMES LIFE JUST SUCKS". pERFECT SSSSSSTORM (iMEANT TO DO THAT) Chri.. on a Cracker I'm behind the o'l 8 ball now. Covid, Holidays, customers switching up......Ahhhh ! Just the other day my mule went lame and I was pushing my wagon in the mud to get home in time for Sabbath….. (I don't have to tell you what happens if I'm late for …..getting off track). As I was pushing my wagon through the mud I was thinking to myself "Bat" it's no sin to be poor.....then I thought "Bat" It's no great honor either......Well, If I were a rich man, yiddle diddle diddle yiddle diddle diddle diddle dum, all day long I'de bidddy biddy bum If I were a wealthy man HEY ! Wouldn't have to work hard , yiddle diddle diddle diddle yiddle …….OH ! OK ! Losing the audience (it happens)…..OH! I know !!! Lets CLOG ! A,5.6.7.8 ""::""::}}{{__))(())(())*&*&*&*&^^%%^^%%$#$#$#$#@@ !!@@!!@@#$$%^^&**((())_)....Oh! Come on ! Your not even trying! again A5.6.7.8 ::""??>><<>><<><??""::;;';';';';/.,./.,./.,./':"":":":":":":[][][{}{}{}}[++_+_--=--=-))((**&&^^%......I give up...….Hey Hodgkins, It went SIDEWAYS ! Lock it up !......Oh! Now It's A Party !!!.....you can thank me later !

[steno]

Lock it and let’s all move on... there’s nothing to see here

[jeremustang]

Guys, I'm a newbie who hasn't posted much on here so please have mercy on me! I'm still building an FE engine in my garage and planning on ordering a kit at the end of the year. I haven't even posted enough to be a full member yet!

However, I think I may have some relevant experience to contribute here. I run a boatyard for a living in Seattle. We have 50 employees, and work on fiberglass boats and yachts all year long. We do paint jobs on fiberglass on a daily basis, so I have a lot of experience with fiberglass work, fairing, putting paint over gelcoat, etc. We paint boats all the way from 10' jet skis to 80' yachts. An FFR body would be a small job in the scope of our business.

BadAsp, It sounds like you're right about the communication issues.

But you also mentioned my favorite saying, the "Speed-Quality-Price Theorem". I say it this way, "Speed, quality, price. Choose any two." It's not a saying so much as a law, like the second law of thermodynamics. And I don't believe you can ever have all 3. I believe you inadvertently chose quality and price, and sacrificed speed. How do I know? When you guys started mentioning prices. I almost spit out my coffee when I saw how cheap the paint job was.

For reference, our shop would probably charge $15,000-$20,000 for labor and materials for that sort of job. Filling/fairing voids, correcting mold separation lines, fitting panels, adjusting panel gaps, sanding, fairing some more, etc. etc. etc.

But we charge $125/hr. What do you get for $125/hr? 5 full time project managers, highly paid painters with health insurance, 401k, etc., and all the extras. So we could probably do it in a couple months. In our world, you get Speed and Quality, but not Price. And even then, its HARD. Really HARD. Good painters are SO HARD to find. And even charging $125/hr, its hard to make it all work.

What's my point? I could only imagine the stress Jeff Kleiner goes through trying to do all that work by himself, do a super high quality job, and keep all the customers happy! I'm having anxiety just thinking about it. And you're getting a VERY good deal! While it's OK to feel frustrated, try to consider that doing that as a one man business is next to impossible, and something's gotta give! Communication is usually first to go. And getting flamed for it in front of your main customer base is a real killer. Also getting anxiety just thinking about how he must feel. Try to keep in mind that while you may think you're paying a lot, you actually got a great deal and Jeff probably made a lot less than you think.

Just my $.02 from doing this for a while. Customers always have the right to be upset, and you definitely have the right to be mad, BadAsp. But complaining about a mega corp like WalMart in public is not the same as complaining about a one-man-show.

[cv2065]

Lock it and let’s all move on... there’s nothing to see here

Disagree. There is a lot here that people can learn from both personally and professionally, if they so choose. I've been in sales and customer relations my entire career, and if a customer's expectations are severely misaligned from their service provider, then there has been a major breakdown in the communication process that should be addressed.

If you are paying less than $10K for a paint job, I don't think any of us think its going to be perfect. If that is your assumption, then your expectations are out of bounds. But at the very least, expectations and communications should be managed properly. If delays occur, that is going to happen, but they have to be communicated. This also includes visual representation of what is going on and progress so that we as builders can enjoy that last phase of our build before graduation. Some will never build another again and become 'waxers'...LOL.

Jeff has been great on the forums and I appreciate all of the input and value that he and people like Edwardb add to the experience. They are part of the reason why I bought into the FFR platform and my build has benefited from their ideas, ingenuity and passion. NONE of the other Cobra replica companies or communities can even come close. That said, I was in line to have my car painted by Jeff, but moved on as the timelines became uncertain, communication was lacking and the way my friend Carl was treated, to me, was unprofessional. And this is from a professional, career based viewpoint....nothing personal what so ever.

All that said, I would hope that we can learn from the thread to boost our communication with one another and continue to build a strong community. FFR is very successful, but in the grand scheme of things, there is only a small community of builders, so let's be the best we can be and represent the craft well.

Can I get a group hug or something?

[Jetfuel]

The business of doing business
One satisfied customer tells one person...one dissatisfied tells a dozen...

Jet