Plavan's 818R Build Thread

[Santiago]

Very interesting...

Thanks for keeping us in the loop with your findings Chad.

Best,
-j

[Santiago]

I wonder how the FFR cars do. I have not seen video or article since the last one they blew up. You would think that they have some information to share so that we all don't have to play trial and error

Just looked over Chad's last few build pages. One striking difference between his build and the current grey FFR-mule is that they cut out a much larger portion of the hood area where Chad still has only the conventional grill area exposed. Mechie's louvers may help, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if what is really called for is similar wholesale removal of lots of that area of the hood.

What I read from Chad's experience is that airflow is key - however you can get that, be it additional fans, vents, or louvers, the basic set-up is not sufficient. You might be able to get away with what we see is on the grey FFR-mule and retain the greater downforce of taping off the lower nose vent. Of course, we need another guinea pig to find out. ;)

Best,
-j

[bbjones121]

And you wonder why mid engine exotics have huge vents and ducting. I was pushing FFR to do more aggressive ducting in the design phase to match the "looks" of other mid engined cars. Little did I know at the time that other manufacturers probably did it for a reason...air flow.

[bbjones121]

I bet the new hardtop with the roof vent will get some good flow to the engine bay. It should also help pull some air down over the engine bay and provide more low pressure in the rear?

[C.Plavan]

Keep in mind that the Grey FFR 818R is using the restrictive, FFR provided mesh material. It also has not been on the track very long, or lately.

It wasn't a problem of getting the air out, it was a problem of getting air in to the radiator. It just needed more with the HE in there too. The door vents extract most of the air. It's probably causing turbulence down the side that makes the side vents ineffective (proven from my air intake temps when I had the air filter down there). The side vents really are not big enough for a race car. Plus, they just hit the 90 degree aluminum wheel well insert. Not very effective.

[Santiago]

Chad, how are the door vents getting air out? There's aluminum panels covering the frame aft of the radiator. The only way for that heated air to release out the door vents is if it is spilling over the aluminum panels...then down towards the door vent openings. That's hardly a well designed flow path.

I'd love to see better pics, but from what I can tell, the door vents are only serving to release the turbulent air of the wheel well (which is largely blocked off from the radiator flow). This is what I'm seeing: 40791 The radiator is totally blocked off along the side with only a little bit of room above the UCA. So the door vents aren't positioned to assist heat extraction here.

Releasing turbulent air in the wheel well will benefit drag, aid in cooling the brakes, and possibly benefit downforce (and perhaps also creating poor flow conditions to the rear vents), but I'm not seeing the radiator cooling benefit. What am I missing?

Best,
-j

[Mechie3]

I believe Chad said with the door vents you have to remove that piece. Chad has my original small louvers, but not the big ones.

The side vents don't even stick out from the side of the car much regardless of turbulent air from the door vents. Looking down the front they're almost flush with the front fenders. They don't stick out as much as they dive into the body, thus missing most of the airstream.

[bbjones121]

Hi Mechie, yeah I was talking of your larger ones. I think they will help. I plan to line the area after the radiator with sheet metal to direct air up through your vents.

[C.Plavan]

Chad, how are the door vents getting air out? There's aluminum panels covering the frame aft of the radiator. The only way for that heated air to release out the door vents is if it is spilling over the aluminum panels...then down towards the door vent openings. That's hardly a well designed flow path.

I'd love to see better pics, but from what I can tell, the door vents are only serving to release the turbulent air of the wheel well (which is largely blocked off from the radiator flow). This is what I'm seeing: 40791 The radiator is totally blocked off along the side with only a little bit of room above the UCA. So the door vents aren't positioned to assist heat extraction here.

Releasing turbulent air in the wheel well will benefit drag, aid in cooling the brakes, and possibly benefit downforce (and perhaps also creating poor flow conditions to the rear vents), but I'm not seeing the radiator cooling benefit. What am I missing?

Best,
-j

Mechie nailed it. With the door vents, you leave off the back wheel well pieces so radiator air can escape. FFR said to leave off the very back piece, I went a step further and left off the little triangle piece in front of the rear most piece also. I'll take more pictures after I unload the car from the trailer.

[Scargo]

Does this mean that all production cars and pure race cars with similar side vents perform poorly? I'm guessing not, and that functionality is somewhat dependent on the front aerodynamics (as has been mentioned) rather than how far it sticks out in front of the wheel-well. Perhaps canards could help?
In the front, perhaps more emphasis placed on the hood's vents being larger and more air exiting there? Perhaps the side openings of the front fenders be made larger and the door not be blunt in the front, so that airflow is not moving as fast and as turbulently on exit? I have trimmed back the vertical lip on the rear of the front fender till it is almost flush to the inside. I moved the front of the doors in (more than normal). I have created about as big an opening as I can in that area.
At the rear, I plan on bringing the face of the rear side opening in by cutting it top and bottom, vertically scoring the inside of the front-most area, so it will bend (hard against the frame at the back), and then re-glassing it top and bottom.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

At the rear, I plan on bringing the face of the rear side opening in by cutting it top and bottom, vertically scoring the inside of the front-most area, so it will bend (hard against the frame at the back), and then re-glassing it top and bottom.

To get more air in the rear compartment, I am also going to open up the side vents by recessing the input to the vent. Similar to this picture.

40809

Chad,
I am banking on the rear bumper cutouts sucking air out of the motor compartment. Does that seem to be working?
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

The other problem is the stock ffr vents are cut too small and the grill mil isn't open
enough. It created a wall that forced the air out and around. Open the vent and get a low pressure area behind it. The rear grill also needs to open up more. The radiator area has similar airflow issues with no area for air to escape. Between the bigger vent louvers and a divider in front of the battery compartment... :eek:

[Santiago]

Thanks for the info Chad - I'd love to see a clear picture of how they set it up.

Flow to the rear side scoop is definitely hindered by the block profile of the front door, but the FFR cut-outs alleviate this a lot. So there's something else leading to either poor flow in the region or maybe the entrance is too small. I do like Glyn and Bob's proposal, but I worry that the flow path itself is just not working for the area without pushing further out from the body to catch something. Of course, there are other solutions...well placed canards might do it, but it's guess and check under dicey conditions (absent a wind-tunnel); then again, there's also barge boards which would likely be the best solution.

Best,
-j

[Brando]

Chad where did you post the 1:54? BW 13CW? If so that's darn fast with 280HP!! Incredible actually.
Sorry about the cooling issues but glad it's all holding together why you're working it all out.

[C.Plavan]

To get more air in the rear compartment, I am also going to open up the side vents by recessing the input to the vent. Similar to this picture.

40809

Chad,
I am banking on the rear bumper cutouts sucking air out of the motor compartment. Does that seem to be working?
Bob

The rear of the 818R is the hottest thing I have ever felt. You have your work cut out putting a radiator behind the motor, its soooo darn hot even with my two rear cut outs. I can't imagine blocking flow with an radiator back there. The motor/exhaust/turbo pump out heat, and I have ceramic coated stuff AND header wrap. I'm going to have to box in my oil cooler back there to keep the heat out.

[C.Plavan]

Chad where did you post the 1:54? BW 13CW? If so that's darn fast with 280HP!! Incredible actually.
Sorry about the cooling issues but glad it's all holding together why you're working it all out.

Thanks Brandon- Yep CW13. I was pretty excited. Then a ST2 Corvette ran a 1:48..... Once I get it running well, I wont drive like a sissy looking at the gauges all the time. It really messes up my lines.

Oil temps are the only thing I need to work on now. Once That is done, It's on to the handling. I would prefer stiffer springs. There is a little too much roll for me.

[Brando]

1:48 for ST2? Jeez I had no idea guys from ST2 would be running that fast. I have this thing about running faster than the Lotus 211, and the fastest time I have seen posted is a 1:50 with that track config and your almost there. I ran a 1:58 there with 40 more HP than you and I can't imagine how I would have shaved 4 seconds. You're rockin it. Were you running R6's still or did you shift to A's?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

The rear of the 818R is the hottest thing I have ever felt. You have your work cut out putting a radiator behind the motor, its soooo darn hot even with my two rear cut outs. I can't imagine blocking flow with an radiator back there. The motor/exhaust/turbo pump out heat, and I have ceramic coated stuff AND header wrap. I'm going to have to box in my oil cooler back there to keep the heat out.
Hi Chad,
My radiators should not add any heat to the engine compartment. As that heat will get blown out the back immediately.
The two 12" radiator fans should exchange the air in the engine compartment every few seconds to prevent much of a heat rise.
The only down side it that I may be blowing warm air through the radiator.
I will have a small 6" fan that will run on a sensor/timer after the car is turned off to keep the compartment from heat soaking.

Thanks for doing all your testing and giving myself and others information to watch out for.
Bob

[JeromeS13]

I would highly suggest upgrading to a proven radiator. With my Ron Davis and near 100 degree ambient temperatures, the highest I saw on a 15+ minute track session was 196. That may have even been after I pulled off track and was cooling down in the paddock. 196 is when I have the fans turning on.

[C.Plavan]

1:48 for ST2? Jeez I had no idea guys from ST2 would be running that fast. I have this thing about running faster than the Lotus 211, and the fastest time I have seen posted is a 1:50 with that track config and your almost there. I ran a 1:58 there with 40 more HP than you and I can't imagine how I would have shaved 4 seconds. You're rockin it. Were you running R6's still or did you shift to A's?

I was using my old R7's- I have a set of new A7's I did not mount yet. There was no need to waste them until the car is running right.



Hi Chad,
My radiators should not add any heat to the engine compartment. As that heat will get blown out the back immediately.
The two 12" radiator fans should exchange the air in the engine compartment every few seconds to prevent much of a heat rise.
The only down side it that I may be blowing warm air through the radiator.
I will have a small 6" fan that will run on a sensor/timer after the car is turned off to keep the compartment from heat soaking.

Thanks for doing all your testing and giving myself and others information to watch out for.
Bob

That's what I meant, all that hot air going through the radiator. I could not keep the engine compartment cool with the rear hatch off (humps). It still caused my oil cooler to get too hot.

[C.Plavan]

BTW- Everyone loved how my car would throw flames on shifts. :)

[Scargo]

I second a quality racing radiator like what Ron Davis makes. 3-4 times thicker than stock.
If you think about it, all of the exhaust, the engine and the tranny are all in that space. The tranny gets hot. Even when moving there is very likely some dead-air spots back there in the stock kit configuration. I do not care for the idea of anything in the back working off pre-heated air; certainly not the radiator. Segregating it and supplying it with fresh air seems impractical.

[C.Plavan]

Enjoy- Here are a few laps before I had to pull off due to rising oil temps.


http://youtu.be/Mbcc5Uiinz0

[longislandwrx]

Chad, did you wrap/coat your exhaust or just the header and uppipe?

also, what about going old school with the oil cooler and just hanging it on the top of the car between the humps?

40839

[C.Plavan]

Chad, did you wrap/coat your exhaust or just the header and uppipe?

also, what about going old school with the oil cooler and just hanging it on the top of the car between the humps?

40839
Everything exhaust related is ceramic coated and wrapped.

I thought about that for the oil cooler, but want to try and box it in first to keep engine heat out. Throwing it between the humps would be a last resort thing I think.

[Hindsight]

Love the video!

[Scargo]

Thanks for the video! On old tires, Tracmate seems to indicate that you were often in the area between 1.25 and 1.5 g's in turns. Is this for real? Do you have a datalog that has real numbers? Seems like it might indicate that you are getting aero benefits.
Mentioned by Andrew and Tamra, they had to be very judicious with the application of throttle to keep the rear end from taking off on them.
Seemed like you had plenty of power coming out of turns. Can you elaborate on how smoothly the torque curve works, its predictability and tire traction vs power.

[D Clary]

Looks great chad. The new tires are really going to help, I can see the grip just isn't there. As far as the engine compartment, does the air flow through or does it ball up behind the car and stall in the engine bay. I don't recall that being looked at on the early wind tunnel test. Maybe a blower drawing from the side scoop to promote some flow. With the inner fenders and belly pan, the engine is running in a box. It will be hard to control oil temp under those conditions.

[Mitch Wright]

Thanks for sharing the video Chad.
I am not to the point yet to know if I go with plan A or B yet for my radiator exhaust vents, I need to measure up a car with the body on it to get an idea of the space I have to work with. this is Option A I am exploring for my radiator exhaust in the hood.
40843

[C.Plavan]

Thanks Guys- I have been putting a lot of time, thought, and cash into this car. I'm now sort of realizing, I am the Factory Five 818R Mule/test car. Not something I was really hoping for. I do hope FFR will start racing the 818R's again. Especially before coming out with more "new" 818 stuff.

That being said, I may be going "Radio Silent" for awhile to focus on getting this car all setup and reliable. Once I make some major headway, I will publish a "818R Manifesto" for everyone. Sort of like a "Cliff Notes" version instead of people having to go through pages and pages in my build thread. I'm glad to help in anyway I can, so shoot me a PM if you have a specific question.

[xxguitarist]

I have been thinking that there would be benefit to an actual race setup/results/experiences thread- Either combined autox & road course, or segregated. We have something like 75 minutes of race-pace autoX time on our car now, though it's still "naked", and we've learned a lot about it in that time.

[dpalm]

Does anyone have for sale some front lower control arm spacers for the 818R? (C.Plavan's November 2013 post # 137 mentions that he had some extras that he could sell.)

Duncan

[C.Plavan]

Does anyone have for sale some front lower control arm spacers for the 818R? (C.Plavan's November 2013 post # 137 mentions that he had some extras that he could sell.)

Duncan


I never made another batch because of the minimum. I'm all out.

[Scargo]

As to Tamra and Andrew's suggestion I would hope that specifics get put in the "R", discussions area. It is easy for good data to get lost.
To Chad's effort and your documentation and videos, I commend your effort. Bravo!
I know full-well how much time and energy goes into taking photos, videos, etc. and editing and publishing. Could be time spent working on the car...
Still, I am a believer of sharing and helping and that it's good Karma! At 68, I feel like I want to help the youngsters when I can.
Like Chad, we have learned by the school of hard knocks. He's an explorer.

[C.Plavan]

I made my oil cooler box with Incoming air ducts for the 3" hose. I plan on insulating it with reflective tape. I'll redo the side air intakes once the new side scoops arrive.

I also have Mechie's bigger rear vent coming. I'm hopeful that will help cool things off also.

http://i.imgur.com/YhkC1Nal.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/27n9AROl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/itUBLbgl.jpg

[C.Plavan]

I could not live with myself if I left the "Fun Pool Noodle" Track Hack on. It was a track fix for the radiator to hood air block off. I made a proper aluminum one. Fits great.
http://i.imgur.com/xQIDylfl.jpg?1

It was the one of many things I did at the track to fix the overheating. However, it was the opening of the bottom aluminum pan louvers and removing a little tape from the splitter that did the trick to cure that problem.
http://i.imgur.com/SeHKnAyl.jpg

[C.Plavan]

Say "No" to high intake temps. After trying three different spots (Pre-side scoops), this is the winner. It will have no issues sucking in cold air.

http://i.imgur.com/9ZgGTx2l.jpg

[Wayne Presley]

Say "No" to high intake temps. After trying three different spots (Pre-side scoops), this is the winner. It will have no issues sucking in cold air.

http://i.imgur.com/9ZgGTx2l.jpg

you're going to have to fully sealed that into the engine compartment as you want no flame path between you and the motor

[bstuke]

Nice!

[Scargo]

"Cool" idea! Chad, I think it needs a bullet head on it! :cool:
Perhaps more directed at Wayne, but I plan on having my STi intercooler there and a cover for the passenger side. If my intercooler air dumps into the engine compartment would I need to do something about the potential of flames coming out through it?

[C.Plavan]

you're going to have to fully sealed that into the engine compartment as you want no flame path between you and the motor

I have the aluminum for it. It's on my list. I'm just more concerned about getting the heat problems managed first. That is what the fire system is for, and I will just drive faster if I see flames back there :)

[C.Plavan]

Aluminum oil cooler insulated box installed. Insulated with 2000 degree reflective fiberglass tape. Mechie's new rear top louver is on the way to also help with the heat.

http://i.imgur.com/QoU6elTl.jpg

On Monday, I should get Kurk818's Scoops. I will tie in the 3" duct hose with the scoops and a connector duct. (Disregard the duct hose spaghetti back there, I need to trim the hose and make a better path- it's just laying there for now.)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Aluminum oil cooler insulated box installed. Insulated with 2000 degree reflective fiberglass tape. Mechie's new rear top louver is on the way to also help with the heat.

http://i.imgur.com/QoU6elTl.jpg

On Monday, I should get Kurk818's Scoops. I will tie in the 3" duct hose with the scoops and a connector duct. (Disregard the duct hose spaghetti back there, I need to trim the hose and make a better path- it's just laying there for now.)

Chad
Have you considered adding an electric radiator fan to push hot air out of the back of the car?
Bob

[Mechie3]

Chad, the louver shipped out Weds am via USPS. It will probably arrive tomorrow. It was sent priority. When it comes, use the brace as a guide to get the right bend angle. Once bent, it might need a burr or two removed that couldn't be reached with it in the flat position. Insert the first fin into the brace and then work your way back. Once they were all sitting in place I stood it up on end (wide end on the table with the outside frame touching) and tapped on the flat end of the brace while holding one fin at a time starting from the front. The brace for the first two prototypes (yours and mine) was tighter than my second round test which is why the hammer is needed to tap it in place. Even though it's tight, either weld it or epoxy the brace on with panel bond from the underside.

Cut out the entire deep depression and most of the shallow depression. The last fin should hang 1/2 over the shallow depression for looks. If you want to cut it open more you could.

[icky]

Say "No" to high intake temps. After trying three different spots (Pre-side scoops), this is the winner. It will have no issues sucking in cold air.

http://i.imgur.com/9ZgGTx2l.jpg

You're on speed density, right?

[C.Plavan]

No SD. Tuner said we could, but for what we are doing (detuning) he said it really didn't matter either way.

[C.Plavan]

Chad
Have you considered adding an electric radiator fan to push hot air out of the back of the car?
Bob

I'm hoping the scoops will alleviate that. Going fast on a race course, you would think air flow would not be that big of a deal with all the 818R openings.

[C.Plavan]

Mechie's New rear vent louvers on. It looks really good. It is much bigger too which is great.

http://i.imgur.com/pQEox5gl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/BJhgvPgl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/P6pGpJel.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/jPvQl9Ol.jpg

Sorry for the crappy pictures. I'll take some better ones outside this week.

[Hindsight]

Sigh.

*Gets out wallet*

[Kurk818]

You'll love the scoops. I went for a 35 mile drive yesterday with no other cutouts besides the opening for the RMIC, the preintake temps were in the 70s with the hot side in the up to 180* at times.

Its a blast to drive :)

http://i.imgur.com/g3rpqbk.jpg

[Bob_n_Cincy]

You'll love the scoops. I went for a 35 mile drive yesterday with no other cutouts besides the opening for the RMIC, the preintake temps were in the 70s with the hot side in the up to 180* at times.

Its a blast to drive :)

Great news Kurk,
Do you have wheel wells and floor sheet metal in?
Bob

[Kurk818]

[QUOTE=Kurk818;197084]You'll love the scoops. I went for a 35 mile drive yesterday with no other cutouts besides the opening for the RMIC, the preintake temps were in the 70s with the hot side in the up to 180* at times.

Its a blast to drive :)[QUOTE]

Great news Kurk,
Do you have wheel wells and floor sheet metal in?
Bob

Everything is in. Very minor rubbing on the outer lip fiberglass on hard cornering in the front with 255s. Im not complaining :)

[Canadian818]

Chad, have you considered using a different mesh on the back bumper that will flow more? Have you tried just removing it at the track? That might be a huge contributing factor in the overheating problem.

Also, both Mechie's louvers and kurts scoops look great!

[C.Plavan]

Chad, have you considered using a different mesh on the back bumper that will flow more? Have you tried just removing it at the track? That might be a huge contributing factor in the overheating problem.

Also, both Mechie's louvers and kurts scoops look great!

This mesh is really open. Its not the restrictive FFR supplied kind.

[Frank818]

Wow, you seem to have a lot of heat problems. Really nice to see all the solutions put together.

Say, you fitted the under radiator alu panel WITH the race splitter? I thought the splitter was replacing the louvered under radiator panel.

[Mechie3]

The under aluminum is really needed to support the side radiator aluminum pieces.

[C.Plavan]

Just some teaser pictures-

Kirk818's scoops came today. They are excellent quality and the fit so far is great. I'm not just saying that. The quality and finish is better than my 818R fiberglass. I wanted everyone to know that I paid for these scoops also, so I'm not biased :)

There are a few different ways to mount them. I have only worked on one side tonight, and have not finished it completely. The 3" duct hose to my oil cooler box fits in the top part of the scoop perfectly. I plan on painting the inside of the scoops Matt Black. The white gelcoat is a perfect match to the body.

I also requested him leave the bottom lip of the scoop on, it adds another 5/8" of "Air Grab" to the bottom of the vent. You can see on his 818 the bottom of the scoop is flush, mine has that lip. Enough talk-

http://i.imgur.com/w6aqap4l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/QHeEZYnl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/wDKKrASl.jpg

[Hindsight]

Looking good. Is there enough room in the side sail to recess the area toward the inside of the scoop more inward to help create more of a low pressure area and a larger opening like a naca duct? It would obviously require some fiberglass fab work.

[C.Plavan]

Looking good. Is there enough room in the side sail to recess the area toward the inside of the scoop more inward to help create more of a low pressure area and a larger opening like a naca duct? It would obviously require some fiberglass fab work.

I guess that would be possible. There is alot of room under there. When cutting the side sails even more, I was careful to watch for my IC and coolant lines with my body saw.

[Hindsight]

At some point I would really love to see something like this (from a scoop standpoint). You could do it without the deep door recess by simply making the scoop larger and and extending out to the same width as the edge of the fender flares. It would be a bigger piece to make and bolt on, of course:
41683

[C.Plavan]

KAAA CHOW!

http://i.imgur.com/xEe5Qu6l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/N5Otoa4l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Dgc3ZKAl.jpg

[D Clary]

Hey Chad did the rear links cure the tire rub? Any idea where you are with ride height. I do appreciate you R&D. Work has been very busy and I am still a couple of months from road worthy.

[Scargo]

I think that Kirk's side scoops will be a big improvement. They look like they should be an improvement. I know that the interior (to the frame) has room for the fiberglass to move inward well over an inch. This might well help in addition to his bigger scoop, but as discussed there are aero issues that need to be addressed so the airflow is not too turbulent when it gets there.
Everything about Kirk's scoop appeals to me except for the detail at the top. All the other lines flow well; the top does not. Purely cosmetic, but it does not work for me.

[DMC7492]

Hey Scargo I think the issue with the top of the air scoop isthe drivers side fuel filler, to go higher and more contoured to match the rear quarter the filler needs to be shaved, now if a guy had a front fuel tank or fuel cell this could change the shape of the scoop. Let's see how well this design works. Then make some changes if needed.
41700

[sponaugle]

That looks awesome! I'm glad I am getting a set of those side scoops!

[Kurk818]

That looks awesome! I'm glad I am getting a set of those side scoops!

I should have yours ready to ship Friday.

[Mechie3]

The very top line of the scoops was made (I'm assuming) to match the slight depression already in the body work from FFR. The FFR side inlets look a bit like a converging nozzle going front to back while the top of the side sail is a a diverging nozzle.

[Mitch Wright]

Good looking race car Chad.

[C.Plavan]

Hey Chad did the rear links cure the tire rub? Any idea where you are with ride height. I do appreciate you R&D. Work has been very busy and I am still a couple of months from road worthy.

Nothing worth mentioning yet. I keep changing things. I ordered some new springs front and rear and will be trying those out also. 300/500 is too soft in my opinion, with too much body roll. I may have to try a few sets of springs out, good thing springs are not that expensive. I see double adjustable shocks in my future, if these shocks cant handle stiffer springs.

I have to look at the rubbing- I have not even checked that yet.

[C.Plavan]

Good looking race car Chad.

Thanks- I just wish it ran as good as it looks..... :) All in due time I guess.

[D Clary]

I was thinking of higher spring rates, as I think they were planning on using a sway bar and we are not. Also the aero puts more of a load on the rear, from some photos particularly Brandons, the rear looked like it squatted at speed, that would raise the splitter and cause an aero push. I was thinking higher rates all around with less front to rear split. Just thinking outloud.

[Mechie3]

I must say, I really do like what the scoops do for it. They make it look more aggressive IMO.

[C.Plavan]

I did a few little changes to the suspension over the weekend. A few adjustments, and other secret stuff.

Since I could not test last weekend (The group was full) I'm not racing at California Speedway this coming weekend. I did not want to tow 6 hours and chase my tail if things were not working right like at Buttonwillow. It kinda sucks, but on Friday I will be testing a Buttonwillow again and instructing a Gentleman with a Cayman R.

Alot of things will be getting tested (Scoops, Insulated oil cooler box, Mechie's new rear top vent, suspension). Keep your fingers crossed that the oil temps are hopefully fixed! That way I can focus on driving and tuning the suspension for once.

[Frank818]

Lots of good stuff Chad, hopefully this time is the one.
Will you also be testing Mechie's front hood enlarged louvers?

[bstuke]

I was thinking of higher spring rates, as I think they were planning on using a sway bar and we are not. Also the aero puts more of a load on the rear, from some photos particularly Brandons, the rear looked like it squatted at speed, that would raise the splitter and cause an aero push. I was thinking higher rates all around with less front to rear split. Just thinking outloud.400lb with wing, 300lb without on the back. And generally everyone applies too much downforce to start. Ask me how I know.. :rolleyes:

[C.Plavan]

400lb with wing, 300lb without on the back. And generally everyone applies too much downforce to start. Ask me how I know.. :rolleyes:

Stock springs at the rear are 500 with the wing. I'm higher than that now. Car was leaning way too much for me.

[D Clary]

If you can balance it, you can use the down force. it is just easier to gain in the rear with a giant wing than with a small splitter. Keeping the splitter on the ground is the key to how much rear you can add as the wing is mounted behind the axle.

[C.Plavan]

Preliminary Redneck aero-yarn-tuft test complete.

1. Mechie's rear top vent does actually suck Air in to the engine bay on a 818R. Speeds of 50-60mph. That could change going faster. Not necessarily a bad thing, I like that it can cool off my Oil cooler box behind it. (Maybe the IC core creates a low pressure under the hatch right there.) Also could be with the rear bumper vented a lot like I originally thought.

2. Kurk's Scoops are definitely scooping air. Only the very bottom of the scoop was not scooping as much, the rest was definitely working.

How I attached.

http://i.imgur.com/gviNpU6l.jpg


Screen grab from video while driving
http://i.imgur.com/WxFfNpel.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/8xDFMNXl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/202Mt5Ol.jpg

[C.Plavan]

All waxed up (first time) and ready for Friday's test. Chance of rain.... I hope not, but we sure do need it.

http://i.imgur.com/dyWLli8l.jpg

[Kurk818]

That looks killer. Hoping for a smooth and successful track day for you.

[bbjones121]

Looks great! Hope it goes well.

[wleehendrick]

http://rationalwiki.org/w/images/thumb/e/e4/Godspeed_Racer.jpg/180px-Godspeed_Racer.jpg

Good luck, Chad!

[Hindsight]

Good luck and keep us posted!

[AZPete]

Chad, mine is an 818S but I always look forward to your posts because you are charting new territory and a lot applies to us street-only guys.
Thanks for the R&D. And good luck this weekend!

[Frank818]

All waxed up (first time) and ready for Friday's test. Chance of rain.... I hope not, but we sure do need it.

http://i.imgur.com/dyWLli8l.jpg

Oh you don't have Craig's larger front hood louvers. Sorry about that, that you had.

[Sportsracer]

There's nothing wrong with Red Yarn to visualize airflow.

41952

[C.Plavan]

Just got back from testing: Buttonwillow CW #1 configuration.

+'s
1. My new suspension setup was a big improvement over stock. I still need to tweak ride heights (lower front, raise rear) for better angle of attack
2. I took 1.5 degrees out of there rear wing, that helped the aero push, and increased straight line speed. I can probably take more out safely next test. (8.0 degree's)
3. Engine Coolant never got over 199 degrees on the track while beating the heck out of the car.
4. The car is faster than the Lotus 2 Eleven race car records (1:59.3) on this race track Configuration (CW #1). I pulled off a 1:58, with junk R7 practice tires with 18+ heatcycles. (Anything under 2:00 is considered really fast on this configuration)
5. I was faster than 996 based Factory Porsche Cup cars out there.
6. The IC temp never got over 114 degrees.
7. I am getting faster and faster with this car after every session.

-'s
1. While all the oil cooler improvements helped keep me on the track the whole session each time, It was still getting too hot that last few laps. I would back off, let it cool, then treat the car with no respect and wring it out again.
2. The oil cooler was getting plenty of flow with and without the fan packs on it (tried both ways). I really think we need even bigger oil coolers for racing- It cant seem to keep up. I already have a few plans up my sleeve.
3. People kept on asking if the car was a Honda, Lotus, or BMW....lol
4. Time for more oil cooler changes.....

[Kurk818]

Right on! I bet it has to be one heck of a feeling knowing youve built that car to perform the way it does.

Congrats on a successful run!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Just got back from testing: Buttonwillow CW #1 configuration.

+'s
1. My new suspension setup was a big improvement over stock. I still need to tweak ride heights (lower front, raiser rear) for better angle of attack
2. I took 1.5 degrees out of there rear wing, that helped the aero push, and increased straight line speed. I can probably take more out safely next test. (8.0 degree's)
3. Engine Coolant never got over 199 degrees on the track while beating the heck out of the car.
4. The car is faster than the Lotus 2 Eleven race car records (1:59.3) on this race track Configuration (CW #1). I pulled off a 1:58, with junk R7 practice tires with 18+ heatcycles. (Anything under 2:00 is considered really fast on this configuration)
5. I was faster than 996 based Factory Porsche Cup cars out there.
6. The IC temp never got over 114 degrees.
7. I am getting faster and faster with this car after every session.

-'s
1. While all the oil cooler improvements helped keep me on the track the whole session each time, It was still getting too hot that last few laps. I would back off, let it cool, then treat the car with no respect and wring it out again.
2. The oil cooler was getting plenty of flow with and without the fan packs on it (tried both ways). I really think we need even bigger oil coolers for racing- It cant seem to keep up. I already have a few plans up my sleeve.
3. People kept on asking if the car was a Honda, Lotus, or BMW....lol
4. Time for more oil cooler changes.....

Great News Chad,
Sounds like you have licked the engine coolant and intake temperatures.
What temp do you consider to hot for the oil?
Thanks for the update from Plavan Engineering R&D Department.
Bob

[Wayne Presley]

Just got back from testing: Buttonwillow CW #1 configuration.

+'s
1. My new suspension setup was a big improvement over stock. I still need to tweak ride heights (lower front, raiser rear) for better angle of attack

6. The IC temp never got over 114 degrees.


1: that will turn in better but will lose a little drive off

6: Cool air into the intake is a huge deal, those are the after AWIC numbers I've seen on the dyno.

[C.Plavan]

Great News Chad,
Sounds like you have licked the engine coolant and intake temperatures.
What temp do you consider to hot for the oil?
Thanks for the update from Plavan Engineering R&D Department.
Bob

Thanks- Anything over 245 degree's for oil temp is too hot for me. Once it got over that temp, I could feel performance start to go away and I would slow up immediately.

[Hindsight]

Congrats and making some big leaps. Seems like you are very close to having the car fully sorted.

What size and brand oil cooler are you running? At your HP numbers, I would think you'd want something like a 25-row Setrab.

[C.Plavan]

Congrats and making some big leaps. Seems like you are very close to having the car fully sorted.

What size and brand oil cooler are you running? At your HP numbers, I would think you'd want something like a 25-row Setrab.

I have the Series 9, 20 row Setrab now with the fan pack (FP920M22i). It is probably fine for a street car, but not for the race car. It just cant keep up with me always in boost. When I let off to cool it down, I would try not to be in boost, it would take 3/4 of a lap to get into a comfortable temp zone again for me to floor it again. I could not cool it down like that pre scoops or oil cooler box before, so I know those are working fine. I am thinking of running a second (same model) cooler to the front of the car (Passenger side front bumper area, evacuating air in front of tire like some Porsches) and run them in a series of course.

[D Clary]

Where are you picking up your oil temp? Some people are getting it from the oil galley which is wrong, you should be taking it from the oil tank. Other wis you will get block temp.

[C.Plavan]

Where are you picking up your oil temp? Some people are getting it from the oil galley which is wrong, you should be taking it from the oil tank. Other wis you will get block temp.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. I'm getting it from the back galley oil port under the turbo area. When it gets to 245ish, I can feel the performance start to suffer. It would go to 260+ if I didn't slow up. Porsche motors have the oil temp coming from the block.

[bbjones121]

Awesome Chad! Can't wait to see what you can do when you are not paranoid of the oil temp. I bet it will be fast!

[D Clary]

If there is no oil flow around the bulb on the sender, you are getting the temp from still oil in the galley. The water temp senders extend into a passage that the water circulates by. A dead end galley will absorb the block temp with no way to dissipate the heat. There could be other reasons for the slow down as it gets warmer. If you have an infra red thermometer compare the temp in the tank to your gauge reading. The tank temp is your true oil temp. that is the temp that is returning to the engine. It seems to me that you have more than enough capacity and cooling to keep it in check.

[C.Plavan]

1: that will turn in better but will lose a little drive off

6: Cool air into the intake is a huge deal, those are the after AWIC numbers I've seen on the dyno.

I totally agree. Once I put the intake in its current spot, It solved the problem. It was ingesting hot air in the engine compartment.

The problem with the front of the car is the front splitter. If you mount it the way FFR wants you to (which I did unfortunately) The front of the splitter it angled up almost a full inch. Not really what you want. I screwed down/extended the support struts down to flatten it out a little. It still is angled up a little bit. With my new springs doing their job, I can lower the front a little more to get the splitter parallel to the ground without rubbing the tires I believe. I can probably do that without raising the rear it looks like now.

[C.Plavan]

If there is no oil flow around the bulb on the sender, you are getting the temp from still oil in the galley. The water temp senders extend into a passage that the water circulates by. A dead end galley will absorb the block temp with no way to dissipate the heat. There could be other reasons for the slow down as it gets warmer. If you have an infra red thermometer compare the temp in the tank to your gauge reading. The tank temp is your true oil temp. that is the temp that is returning to the engine. It seems to me that you have more than enough capacity and cooling to keep it in check.

I ordered a new sender with a longer probe. The one I put in there was not that long, but I dont know how deep that galley is. We will see what that does.

[sponaugle]

Where are you picking up your oil temp? Some people are getting it from the oil galley which is wrong, you should be taking it from the oil tank. Other wis you will get block temp.


If there is no oil flow around the bulb on the sender, you are getting the temp from still oil in the galley. The water temp senders extend into a passage that the water circulates by. A dead end galley will absorb the block temp with no way to dissipate the heat. There could be other reasons for the slow down as it gets warmer. If you have an infra red thermometer compare the temp in the tank to your gauge reading. The tank temp is your true oil temp. that is the temp that is returning to the engine. It seems to me that you have more than enough capacity and cooling to keep it in check.

There are two primary oil galley locations on the EJ257 blocks (that are easy to get to). The front gally plug is used by the stock pressure sensor, and the rear plug is unused stock. If you are going to measure both pressure and temperature, you should have the temperature probe in the front location. The front location has direct flow across the port from three locations, one of which is the direct feed to the #1 bearing. That is the best place to measure the real effective oil temperature inside the engine.

The rear plug is a great place to measure pressure, as it really is a dead end plug. It is cross sectioned into the primary front to rear top feed, but then drops down to a high pressure release valve (little bearing on the clutch side). Given it's location you will see any pressure drop across the crank bearings, which is what you really want to measure.

On a less theoretical side, I'm not convinced it makes that much difference. I have used all four locations, including both right before and after a cooler, and the temperature difference was not much.. I think pre cooler vs back galley was less then 10 degrees F.

I'm not sure of the direct mathematical correlation between the block temperature and the oil temperature, but certainly the are highly coupled. The oil has a large amount of surface area transfer with the block itself. While a galley plug will be influenced by the block temperature, I suspect the oil flow (at least at the front plug location) will be the most significant factor.

As for the temperature itself, it is possible and desirable to get cooler. In my WRX pre EZ30R I had a number of different engines, one of which was a built up EJ207. I revd that engine to 8700 rpm, and racing at Portland International Raceway I had significant oil temperature problems. After about 5 laps, especially on the the rear straight which would involved a long 2, 3, 4, 5 full boost pull, I would see oil temps climb from 225 to about 285. I added an oil cooler (not really that large of a one btw), that was front mounted right at the front bumper, and that fixed the problem. I would typically not get above 245. Of course being at the front of the car meant lots of lots of airflow over the cooler.

I would not feel comfortable running sustained oil temps of 270+ in an EJ motor. Heat is the killer of engines in so many ways. High engine block and combustion chamber temperatures can lead to knock, which can lead to lots of broken parts. Of course I also ran at least an extra qt of oil in the engine, and the lines and cooler held some as well.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. I'm getting it from the back galley oil port under the turbo area. When it gets to 245ish, I can feel the performance start to suffer. It would go to 260+ if I didn't slow up. Porsche motors have the oil temp coming from the block.

As I mentioned in my previous post, there is a theoretical advantage to using the front port for temperature ( and the rear for pressure ), but in practice I am not sure it makes that much difference. It would be pretty easy to swap the locations if you want to try that. Either way, I think your instinct about reducing the oil temps is a good idea.

Jeff

[D Clary]

You have to find out if the problem is oil temp or oil cooling. I f the cooler is working and the oil is going in at a low tem and coming out hot there could be other issues. In order to find out if your oil cooling system works. the oil in tank temp is where you need to check. The peak oil temp inside the motor is irrelevant. It could be 300 degrees at the bearing and run forever, but if it is going into the motor at 300 that is not cooling.

[C.Plavan]

I'm leaning towards cooling. I need a secondary cooler in the front. If I can back out of boost on the track, and the temp starts coming down rapidly after 3/4 of a lap, I think more cooler is what the car needs. I'm tired of chasing this problem and I'm going to hit it with a BF hammer.

[D Clary]

Front oil cooler will be a giant step, better airflow and more capacity. I hope it solves the problem. What weight oil are you using? I am only asking as in the past we have used oil temp as kind of a diagnostic tool for the engine condition. More friction, more oil temp. I am far from an expert on Subie engines. But I was wondering what the possibility of loosing some of your main bearing clearance when the engine gets really warm. Just thinking out loud again. I feel like we should all be sending you money for what you have spent and what it has saved us. Thanks Chad.

[C.Plavan]

Front oil cooler will be a giant step, better airflow and more capacity. I hope it solves the problem. What weight oil are you using? I am only asking as in the past we have used oil temp as kind of a diagnostic tool for the engine condition. More friction, more oil temp. I am far from an expert on Subie engines. But I was wondering what the possibility of loosing some of your main bearing clearance when the engine gets really warm. Just thinking out loud again. I feel like we should all be sending you money for what you have spent and what it has saved us. Thanks Chad.

Haha- yeah let's start a "Go Fund Me" 818R development account.
I'm using Mobil 1 15-50 (the good kind with the right additives for race motors). 5qt jugs are $23 at Walmart! Can't beat that for a good Synthetic oil.

[C.Plavan]

Front oil cooler ordered and the associated bits. Lets get this car BUG FREE!

[metros]

Have you considered positioning your rear oil cooler over near one of the monster side scoops you're using? Even with the ducting and having the oil cooler enclosed in a box, it seems like you could get better efficiency from positioning the cooler near one of those scoops.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who hasn't installed the body yet. I may be way off base with thinking there is room available there.

[C.Plavan]

Have you considered positioning your rear oil cooler over near one of the monster side scoops you're using? Even with the ducting and having the oil cooler enclosed in a box, it seems like you could get better efficiency from positioning the cooler near one of those scoops.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone who hasn't installed the body yet. I may be way off base with thinking there is room available there.

I'm passed that. I think the cooler is too small for all that consistent boost (4500-7500) Not saying it wouldn't work, I have experience with front mounted coolers with Porsches. I know this will work for sure.

[C.Plavan]

Alright- Hopefully this will be the last thing I have to do oil cooling wise. The R&D 818R is running without any leaks.

It's all together after channeling my Porsche Oil cooling experience (A skill I thought I would never have to use on a water cooled car :confused:). After about 30' of -12 AN hose, a couple new fittings, additional oil cooler in the front, careful trimming/cutting, big P-clamps, 3" duct hose and ducts (both bumper and cooler).... I can now remove my 25 pound ballast :/ . The car takes around 9- 9.5 qts of oil now. I'll know exactly next full oil change.

I'm thinking I'm going to take the day off on Friday and head to a track test day. I'm hoping and praying this oil cooling thing is now behind me.

http://i.imgur.com/2AnwkmFl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/TQfPMt1l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ZqDSlB8l.jpg
I need to rivet my mesh on the rear.

http://i.imgur.com/cI34Zf8l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/itiOCodl.jpg

[D Clary]

Looks good Chad. On my late model I plumbed the dry sump with aluminum tubing from the rear to front. and used shorter pieces of braided steel. When you are sure it will work you could probably run it with the cooling pipes under the side pods. obviously a winter project. Anyway I got the tubing from McMaster Carr and just welded AN fittings to the ends. Just in case you're 818 crowd funding takes off.

[C.Plavan]

Looks good Chad. On my late model I plumbed the dry sump with aluminum tubing from the rear to front. and used shorter pieces of braided steel. When you are sure it will work you could probably run it with the cooling pipes under the side pods. obviously a winter project. Anyway I got the tubing from McMaster Carr and just welded AN fittings to the ends. Just in case you're 818 crowd funding takes off.

Thats a good idea. But I think If this works with the -12 hose, I'll just keep it. I will probably have to spend more money on other things.

No crowdfunding, just helping you guys out with money/time.

[Frank818]

Now if that doesn't work, nothing will!

[C.Plavan]

Here goes nothing. All packed for more testing tomorrow at Buttonwillow. Config #25 Counter-Clockwise.....yikes. Pray to the oil cooling god.


http://i.imgur.com/AV5tRU7l.jpg

[Scargo]

Would a hydronic heater element (http://www.amazon.com/Steam-Hydronic-Heater-Element-Copper/dp/B000CDCJJ0/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1433514664&sr=1-1&keywords=Steam%2FHydronic+Heater+Element%2C+Copper %2C+4ft&pebp=1433514665692&perid=0ZJ60VTG01ENCVP65AYA)going and coming make any sense? As an example, four foot ones are $112 each X 2. Big oil coolers are 2x times that. Save on $80 worth of -12 braided hose so two only cost $144.
Could be mounted low and weight difference is about 11 pounds. Seems only downside is the extra 11 pounds, but then you would need an oil cooler of less size/weight up front.
All aluminum finned tubing might be available which would make the weight almost equal to the hose...
42484

[Brando]

Never have run that config. Should be interesting.
You have made my upgrade list quite long with all the things you have done combating temps. Do you worry about kicking a rock into the front oil cooler or did you add a mesh on top of it?
Good luck Chad, may the gremlins not be with you!

[C.Plavan]

Never have run that config. Should be interesting.
You have made my upgrade list quite long with all the things you have done combating temps. Do you worry about kicking a rock into the front oil cooler or did you add a mesh on top of it?
Good luck Chad, may the gremlins not be with you!

Thanks Brandon- I'm sitting here at the track eating an early lunch. I'm only doing a half day and that starts at 1:00. I did not want to pay for a full day and have high temps the first session and waste that cash. I just have not had the luck I thought I would have with previous "fixes". I got everything all set up and ready. I never ran this config this way either. I don't like going CCW either, the last turn on the front straight likes to eat cars.

Sorry about the upgrade list, it's not finished yet. Haha. I did put mesh up there to protect the cooler. Fingers-crossed the oil stays cool. Outside temps are high 80's- so this is a good day to see what happens.

[Hindsight]

Keep us posted and good luck.

[D Clary]

Probably good for half day, High 80s should show you one way or another. Good luck

[Mitch Wright]

"Would a hydronic heater element going and coming make any sense? As an example, four foot ones are $112 each X 2. Big oil coolers are 2x times that. Save on $80 worth of -12 braided hose so two only cost $144.
Could be mounted low and weight difference is about 11 pounds. Seems only downside is the extra 11 pounds, but then you would need an oil cooler of less size/weight up front.
All aluminum finned tubing might be available which would make the weight almost equal to the hose..."
Click image for larger version. Name: 21nzrGHX2jL.jpg Views: 10 Size: 4.8 KB ID: 42484

Sargo, we used them on our TA cars and ASA cars primarily to save weight, we also made up Aluminum tubes with AN fittings on either end. Anyway we did feel that they helped to lower the oil temp a small percentage.

[C.Plavan]

Hehehehehehe Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[D Clary]

Time fo new tires?

[Hindsight]

Ok spill the beans.... how did it go?

[C.Plavan]

Well, I spoke too soon unfortunately. The first session was awesome. Never got over 220. The second session was fine- got to 230. Last session it got to 250-260 again like before. Sucks- I was throwing down some crazy laptimes.

My new theory is that the oil tank needs to be moved to the front out of the hot engine compartment. Or insulated super good. I think the aluminum tank just keeps getting hotter and hotter and eventually making the coolers ineffective. Basically heat soaking the oil right before it goes into the motor.

Bummed......

The good news- I have an awesome new setup that handled like a dream.

I have no other ideas other than that. I don't know what else it could be. I always said I was amazed at how hot that damn engine bay gets.

[D Clary]

How cool did the oil get between sessions, how long did you run? I am sure having the oil tank in that oven keep heat in but I think the engine in the oven is the real issue. I think you have all of the ducting you can get from the sides. Unless you open the bottom under the exhaust a little. Is there any room for the tank out front by the fuel cell, or maybe in the original fuel tank area. If it went to 260 in a half hour and stopped there I could live with that and just change oil after the race, any higher I don't know. The only other thing I can think of is separating the turbo oiling system from the engine. I have seen it done before just more work and $. The turbo is usually where the temp comes from.

[D Clary]

Just another thought, oil gauge is Accurate? I have had water temp gauges that were way off. Just thinking out loud

[Erik W. Treves]

I was going to mention ... one of the guys on the gtm forum initially did some water radiators in the same spot as your oil cooler. He ended up moving from that location. He said something about the air flow exiting the radiator was disrupted by the wind velocity generated by the rotation of the wheel.... basically at speed acting like the back of the radiator was blocked off.....not sure the aerodynamics of it...but there it is.

[Hindsight]

Well congrats on getting the handling sorted and making it go fast. That's a big feat in of itself. Just one issue you have to contend with now.

Are you sure the placement of your oil temp sender is in a place that provides an accurate and true reading?

It should be easy to prove your oil tank heat-soak theory by insulating the tank really well. Obviously where it is now, you'll need insulation that provides air space instead of just reflective properties (something with some thickness). It may not be pretty but it would be functional.... even if only done as a test. If it were my car, I'd get some duct insulation from home depot and wrap the tank really well, just for one track day to check the theory. If it works, maybe get something more appropriate.

The other thing that comes to mind is that you are still running without the engine cover right? Have you thought about removing the trunk cover as well? That might cause too much of a parachute effect back there at speed, but what about fabbing up some mounts so that you could mount the back of the trunk cover up about 2-3" or so, causing a big low pressure area behind it which would draw out a lot of air from inside the engine compartment. It wouldn't be a permanent solution, but just something to test the heat soak theory. If you are getting a ton of air circulation back there, it can't be heat soak on the tank. Have you thought about mounting an air temp sensor near the tank and hooking it to a gauge just to see what kind of temps you have back there? I'm just really surprised that the big back vents and the two big side vents aren't moving enough air. Think about some other rear and mid-engine cars (like your Spyder)..... most of them don't have side inlets as big as the 818 or rear outlets as big as the 818, yet they don't seem to have a lot of issues (even the turbocharged ones). Maybe there is something to what Erik said above, but that is impacting airflow dynamic in the engine compartment...... an imbalance of some kind preventing air from flowing in the intended path. Maybe spend more time with yarn and a go-pro, both under the car and inside the engine compartment to see what's happening?

Just thinking out loud. Would love to see this car out there lapping people in ST-2.

[bbjones121]

What does crazy lap times mean? At the refinery, I spec out nuclear level transmitters with a vortex cooler and jacket. It is a reflective jacket that is stitched closed and we run plant/instrument air through it. It puffs up to keep air space. I bet you could cut a funnel to place in part of the side duct and run an air tube to a jacket around the tank?

[C.Plavan]

I just got back home. I already ordered Fiberglass insulated reflective high temp tape, and a step further, header wrap. I'm going to wrap that *itch up like a Mummy!

I'm running with the full body on. Some good thoughts above- I should of removed the under engine tray and try running without it. That would of added more airflow in engine area, but I don't know if I would lose too much rear diffuser effect. Only way is to try it out.

I was running constant 1:58's in traffic (this was the first time running this configuration.... its weird, but some places were really fun)- The car was handling perfect (camber is your friend, toe out in front and toe in at rear). Another thing I noticed, it seemed like I hit a wall around ~122 mph. I'm wondering if the tuner forgot to change the throttle values back to 100% (from when he reduced them from the tune before to limit HP)- He forgot to turn my 2nd radiator fan on, so its possible but unlikely since it would be effecting every gear. It could just be the weird feeling of having flat max HP from 4500 on up. You don't get that full accelerating feeling or something. Then again, it could of been a headwind. It's like nothing I have ever felt before. I'll look at the file later.

The brakes are awesome. I finally have them adjusted (dash bias knob on dash) perfectly. They did get a tad soft at one point, nothing that a left foot on the straights could not fix, but I did not bleed them since the last test. Nothing bad, but ducts may be added later. It did not take away from braking confidence.

There were some corners I wish I had a true LSD. The decel lockup would of helped in some trailbraking corners. But the TSB is still up to the task on tight corner exits.


Anyway- I'm beat. I'll have some videos later.

[D Clary]

Another thought Chad, I still don't like where you are getting your oil temp. The only oil temp you can control is the temp going back into the engine. Lets say you put the temp sensor on the turbo, it would probably be 350 degrees and you would really be nuts. The same hold true where you have it on the block. That portion of the block may just be 260 degrees. The only way to check the oil temp is in the oil reservoir or oil pan. There is no way that adding all of the cooling that you have could make no difference. I have used both wet and dry sumps in racing and always gotten the oil temp from the reservoir.

[C.Plavan]

Another thought Chad, I still don't like where you are getting your oil temp. The only oil temp you can control is the temp going back into the engine. Lets say you put the temp sensor on the turbo, it would probably be 350 degrees and you would really be nuts. The same hold true where you have it on the block. That portion of the block may just be 260 degrees. The only way to check the oil temp is in the oil reservoir or oil pan. There is no way that adding all of the cooling that you have could make no difference. I have used both wet and dry sumps in racing and always gotten the oil temp from the reservoir.

I would agree with you if I did not feel the performance difference with the motor when the oil shot up in temp. I have a thermo fan switch that turns on the rear oil cooler fans at 180, I tested it and the gauge reads 180 when the fans turn on.

It did make a huge difference. I could only get about 2-3 laps before I would have to pull off before. I could actually enjoy driving the car this time.

I went out for 20~25 min the first session (oil was cold since start)- the oil temp never got over 220 degrees. The second session about an hour later, the starting oil temp was not ambient (I can look at video of gauge later for exact temp *** just looked it was 160 degrees***) it never got over 230ish. The 3rd session, it got too hot after about 6-7 laps. This is why my oil tank theory came into effect.

[C.Plavan]

Well congrats on getting the handling sorted and making it go fast. That's a big feat in of itself. Just one issue you have to contend with now.

Are you sure the placement of your oil temp sender is in a place that provides an accurate and true reading?

It should be easy to prove your oil tank heat-soak theory by insulating the tank really well. Obviously where it is now, you'll need insulation that provides air space instead of just reflective properties (something with some thickness). It may not be pretty but it would be functional.... even if only done as a test. If it were my car, I'd get some duct insulation from home depot and wrap the tank really well, just for one track day to check the theory. If it works, maybe get something more appropriate.

The other thing that comes to mind is that you are still running without the engine cover right? Have you thought about removing the trunk cover as well? That might cause too much of a parachute effect back there at speed, but what about fabbing up some mounts so that you could mount the back of the trunk cover up about 2-3" or so, causing a big low pressure area behind it which would draw out a lot of air from inside the engine compartment. It wouldn't be a permanent solution, but just something to test the heat soak theory. If you are getting a ton of air circulation back there, it can't be heat soak on the tank. Have you thought about mounting an air temp sensor near the tank and hooking it to a gauge just to see what kind of temps you have back there? I'm just really surprised that the big back vents and the two big side vents aren't moving enough air. Think about some other rear and mid-engine cars (like your Spyder)..... most of them don't have side inlets as big as the 818 or rear outlets as big as the 818, yet they don't seem to have a lot of issues (even the turbocharged ones). Maybe there is something to what Erik said above, but that is impacting airflow dynamic in the engine compartment...... an imbalance of some kind preventing air from flowing in the intended path. Maybe spend more time with yarn and a go-pro, both under the car and inside the engine compartment to see what's happening?

Just thinking out loud. Would love to see this car out there lapping people in ST-2.

Good ideas. I like the rear trunk prop idea. That is easy to test.

I'm also going to block off the humps. I think the flow may be fighting and pulling air out the front. I looked at an old video of when I was overheating (coolant, not oil). I noticed water coming out the rear overflow (my guess) and being thrown around in the cockpit! I could not see it because of the halo seat and driving. I was wondering where dried water droplets were coming from on the dash and fuel cell. Maybe by also closing off the humps, it will force air out the back.

[C.Plavan]

I was going to mention ... one of the guys on the gtm forum initially did some water radiators in the same spot as your oil cooler. He ended up moving from that location. He said something about the air flow exiting the radiator was disrupted by the wind velocity generated by the rotation of the wheel.... basically at speed acting like the back of the radiator was blocked off.....not sure the aerodynamics of it...but there it is.

Thanks for the info. We have used coolers in this spot with old Porsches for years. Granted, the cooler is farther away from the wheel than the 818. My cooler is more offset to in inside, but it is something to note and think about.

[D Clary]

Do you think that the performance difference could be fuel temp because of the high engine compartment temp. I don't see the oil temp causing performance issues at 260 degrees. The fuel temp could get very high as well as the electronics on the motor.

[Hindsight]

I'm also going to block off the humps. I think the flow may be fighting and pulling air out the front.

Yeah I think anything you can do to figure out exactly what the air is doing back there would be helpful. The things that make me wonder about weird airflow are the video you posted of the yarn on the various vents, and out the upper rear vent was actually drawing air IN instead of out, and the fact that your intake was sucking hot air even though it was positioned right in front of the side vent (back when you had it over there). Both of those things tell me something strange is going on back there with the flow and if you can figure it out, there will probably be one simple thing you can do to get everything in balance and properly flowing (assuming that's the issue).

Ok back to the garage to work on my own oil cooler.

[C.Plavan]

Do you think that the performance difference could be fuel temp because of the high engine compartment temp. I don't see the oil temp causing performance issues at 260 degrees. The fuel temp could get very high as well as the electronics on the motor.

That is a possibility. Either way- I have to cool down the back end.


For you data gurus- Here is a friction map from old suspension and brake adjustment, to yesterday. The car is handling and braking better with the suspension changes (same old tires, they were new on the left graph).

http://i.imgur.com/VABhEtnl.jpg

[C.Plavan]

Beating up on some super old tires now. Having a blast putting down some decent lap times for never running this configuration...backwards.

I think I need to take some more out of my wing. I think the feeling I was describing before is Aero drag. I'm new to this full aero stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXvCRRCeiGg

[Erik W. Treves]

Thanks for the info. We have used coolers in this spot with old Porsches for years. Granted, the cooler is farther away from the wheel than the 818. My cooler is more offset to in inside, but it is something to note and think about.

Yep...no problem... the solution on the GTM was the same location but moved further away from the tire as you stated...I should have said have made that clearer...sorry

[D Clary]

Temp or no temp, you need to get new rubber before you wreck

[C.Plavan]

Temp or no temp, you need to get new rubber before you wreck

That takes the fun out of it. The 818R is easier to drive than the old 911's without aero.

[Frank818]

He said something about the air flow exiting the radiator was disrupted by the wind velocity generated by the rotation of the wheel.... basically at speed acting like the back of the radiator was blocked off.....not sure the aerodynamics of it...but there it is.

It's actually pretty simple. When the wheel rotates it moves air around in circle, pushing it away from the wheel. The faster rolling the higher the pressure generated by the rotating wheel. Therefore if a rad is located in the path of that high pressure zone, air will want to go through it or slide along top to bottom. But on the other side of the rad, air is coming in, so you get a collision at the rad which means the air exiting from the rad is blocked by the high pressure of the rotating wheel. This is one reason why those (Porsche for instance) locating rads in that area do it at an angle so that the airflow is less disrupted. Porsche is master at that. This is also a reason why we often see louvers on top of front fenders, to get the pressure out of the wheel well area.

Now I haven't checked exactly where and how Chad located his, but the above is the principle.

[metros]

If you could rig the oil to keep circulating between sessions then your oil wouldn't be heat soaked at the start of a session.

Video looked like a lot of fun.

[D Clary]

When/ where is you're next race?

[C.Plavan]

When/ where is you're next race?

Next weekend (Buttonwillow- same direction as video, but without the long back straight- we dive into the infield for the "Bus Stop"). Getting ready to drain the oil and take the tank out to wrap when parts get here. I'm also blocking the humps off with aluminum, and adding two 90 degree L aluminum pieces above the front oil cooler to possible break the aero from the wheel. Cheap easy fix/test.

[David]

Chad,

Just ran across your build thread... really nice work! I noticed your sig, and realized we have another Porsche brother in our midst. Im currently building a 73 ST tribute as well. I ran across your blue ST a while back while digging around the pelicanparts forum. Gorgeous car!

Anyhow, wanted to say hey and give you props for your great taste in rides! :D

On another note, how is the 818 doing on the track compared to the ST?

David

[C.Plavan]

Chad,

Just ran across your build thread... really nice work! I noticed your sig, and realized we have another Porsche brother in our midst. Im currently building a 73 ST tribute as well. I ran across your blue ST a while back while digging around the pelicanparts forum. Gorgeous car!

Anyhow, wanted to say hey and give you props for your great taste in rides! :D

On another note, how is the 818 doing on the track compared to the ST?

David


Hey David. Thanks on all fronts. As you know early Longhoods prices are skyrocketing, that was my main reason of buying the 818R. It was getting crazy racing the "Angry Smurf" 911ST as often as I was. At the last Rennsport and at the SVRA national Championships at COTA, I was getting unsolicited offers to buy the 911. One offer made me think twice! Thats when I decided I would race it at special historic events. I have had it for 15 years, and raced it every one. Shoot me some pictures when you get yours done. I love the ST models.

This 818R has been an adventure. I can't imagine trying to get this thing running if I did not already have built and raced cars. It would of cost even more money in mistakes if I didn't (Blown motors etc)

As for the difference on the track, the 911 is more mechanical, violent, old school. It will bite you when you are not focused. As for the 818R, it is way easier to drive with the Aero. I call it "point and shoot", where as the 911 is "I hope this holds". So far the 818R is 6 seconds faster than my best time at Buttonwillow in the 911, 3 seconds faster at WS. This will for sure change as I get more comfortable in the 818R- and once I figure out the 818R issues.

[C.Plavan]

Worked on the car yesterday. The oil tank insulated with reflective fiberglass tape first (1100 degree), then header wrap. I'm going overkill on it before the race this weekend to test the theory.

http://i.imgur.com/Hyogq6Sl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/cDhx8SRl.jpg

I call it R2, my personal racing Droid. :)


Then I had to modify the hump block offs for my air intake, R chassis changes. The passenger side is done and sealed up nicely, I just need to finish riveting the driver side and put the bulb seal on.

Hopefully the air will go where I want it, instead of out the humps.

http://i.imgur.com/vGVfDsTl.jpg



http://i.imgur.com/6lYkOZnl.jpg

[bbjones121]

Looks good, hope it goes well!

[D Clary]

I kind of thought they could have made a different block off and deleted the roll bar cutouts. I remade the block off to cover the cutouts in the fiberglass.

[Frank818]

Where exactly (or what brand) did you get your reflective fiberglass tape from? I found a few similar items on ebay (even one to 1800F if you really need overkill :)), but not sure I found the one you are using. And I know you are using great stuff, race proven, so I know for me, on the road, it would be a great choice.

[Aero STI]

Chad, I like the oil tank wrapped in reflective tape, but don't see the point of the header wrap as installed. Remember the three methods of heat transfer: diffusion, convection, radiation. The reflective tape is great for blocking radiant heat from IR sources in the engine bay. The header wrap could act as an insulator to diffusion through the tank mount or an additional convection barrier under the reflective tape, but as it is installed I see it working as a blanket that prevents the reflective tape from doing its job and helping the tank retain heat once it has it.

[C.Plavan]

Where exactly (or what brand) did you get your reflective fiberglass tape from? I found a few similar items on ebay (even one to 1800F if you really need overkill :)), but not sure I found the one you are using. And I know you are using great stuff, race proven, so I know for me, on the road, it would be a great choice.

It was probably the same stuff- 1100 constant, 1800F for a short time. Amazon.com. I ordered coming home from the track on Friday night, they delivered it on Sunday!

[C.Plavan]

Chad, I like the oil tank wrapped in reflective tape, but don't see the point of the header wrap as installed. Remember the three methods of heat transfer: diffusion, convection, radiation. The reflective tape is great for blocking radiant heat from IR sources in the engine bay. The header wrap could act as an insulator to diffusion through the tank mount or an additional convection barrier under the reflective tape, but as it is installed I see it working as a blanket that prevents the reflective tape from doing its job and helping the tank retain heat once it has it.

Hmmmm. I was wondering that when I was putting it on. I was listening to someone else. I may remove the wrap then.

[bbjones121]

You really need a wrap that has air bubbles/space.

[bbjones121]

http://www.heatshieldproducts.com/automotive/heat-shield-and-thermal-barriers

[JeromeS13]

Just curious... Have you actually measured the ambient temperature in the engine bay at various points?

Also, why not build some sort of icebox to surround the oil tank?

[wleehendrick]

As mentioned, ideally you want a first layer of insulation with dead air space, this will limit heat transfer via conduction and convection. Then a top reflective layer to limit radiant transfer. The reflective foil doesn't provide much/any thermal resistance, and to be effective at limiting radiant heat it needs to be on top.

[longislandwrx]

Did you put a down payment on a GT4 yet?

[C.Plavan]

As mentioned, ideally you want a first layer of insulation with dead air space, this will limit heat transfer via conduction and convection. Then a top reflective layer to limit radiant transfer. The reflective foil doesn't provide much/any thermal resistance, and to be effective at limiting radiant heat it needs to be on top.

Yes, I'm taking off the header wrap and leaving the Fiberglass reflective tape. The fiberglass portion of the tape helps that heat barrier insulation, while the reflective portion says "Get the F away radiant heat". (My Layman terms)

[C.Plavan]

Did you put a down payment on a GT4 yet?

I would of loved to, but this 818R is draining me dry!

I might actually sell the Spyder. My wife says we have too many cars...... Then I can go back to restoring the 1972 numbers matching 911 once the darn 818R is working correctly.

[Hindsight]

Isn't your 818 already faster than a GT4 on the track?

[longislandwrx]

Isn't your 818 already faster than a GT4 on the track?

for the first 6 laps ;)

[wleehendrick]

My wife says we have too many cars......

There's no such thing... Just a lack of parking spots!

[C.Plavan]

for the first 6 laps ;)

Bahahahahahaha. So true.

The race track is supposed to be over 100 degree's this weekend. True test.....

[Wayne Presley]

Chad, where in the oil path are you measuring oil temp?

[C.Plavan]

Chad, where in the oil path are you measuring oil temp?

From the rear port on the engine.

I can feel engine performance suffer once over 245 degrees. That's when I back off and start cooling it down. Feels like bearing clearance starts getting tight. Scary.

[D Clary]

I wonder if the clearance is the cause and not the result.

[C.Plavan]

I wonder if the clearance is the cause and not the result.

But I can run it for a long time at 220-230 degrees no problem. Once it gets higher, it seems to compound. Maybe I should run a lighter oil than 15w -50. I don't know, but I will know on Friday if any of these fixes will work.

[FFRSpec72]

The engine shop that I use and is used by several Subaru Race teams here in the NW say that the Subaru engines have too tight tolerance and they have to open up the tolerances, this has worked well for the race teams here in the NW especially for the rally teams that are running long durations at high revs, the temps come down quite a bit.

[Wayne Presley]

From the rear port on the engine.

I can feel engine performance suffer once over 245 degrees. That's when I back off and start cooling it down. Feels like bearing clearance starts getting tight. Scary.


So that's after the cooler and into the oil galley correct?

[C.Plavan]

So that's after the cooler and into the oil galley correct?

Yes.

[dirty kurty]

But I can run it for a long time at 220-230 degrees no problem. Once it gets higher, it seems to compound. Maybe I should run a lighter oil than 15w -50. I don't know, but I will know on Friday if any of these fixes will work.

I am curious why you are running 15w-50? I thought that was mostly for older V8's. Did you ever try the spec 0w-20 or 5w-30 synthetic?

From http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-104/ :
"I truly believe that oil is much better being too thin than too thick. Over the years we have been going to thinner and thinner oils despite hotter engines with turbos and the like. The tendency is that people figure they need a 40 grade oils but then use a 50 instead. Better thinking is that if you think you need a 40, use a 30 grade oil instead. I firmly believe this based on all I know about oils."

[C.Plavan]

I am curious why you are running 15w-50? I thought that was mostly for older V8's. Did you ever try the spec 0w-20 or 5w-30 synthetic?

From http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-104/ :
"I truly believe that oil is much better being too thin than too thick. Over the years we have been going to thinner and thinner oils despite hotter engines with turbos and the like. The tendency is that people figure they need a 40 grade oils but then use a 50 instead. Better thinking is that if you think you need a 40, use a 30 grade oil instead. I firmly believe this based on all I know about oils."

Because Racecar.

Although I may go 40W

[Wayne Presley]

I am curious why you are running 15w-50? I thought that was mostly for older V8's. Did you ever try the spec 0w-20 or 5w-30 synthetic?

From http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-104/ :
"I truly believe that oil is much better being too thin than too thick. Over the years we have been going to thinner and thinner oils despite hotter engines with turbos and the like. The tendency is that people figure they need a 40 grade oils but then use a 50 instead. Better thinking is that if you think you need a 40, use a 30 grade oil instead. I firmly believe this based on all I know about oils."

You have to consider the oil temps in order to have the right viscosity at normal running conditions in race applications, especially on motors with high bearing loads.

[Mechie3]

Fast forward to the 35 second mark. hahaha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcQe7xTCXHg

[metalmaker12]

The engine shop that I use and is used by several Subaru Race teams here in the NW say that the Subaru engines have too tight tolerance and they have to open up the tolerances, this has worked well for the race teams here in the NW especially for the rally teams that are running long durations at high revs, the temps come down quite a bit.

I did just this from my experience with these engines, the piston clearances are too tight from factory and leaning towards the outer limits of the specs is the way to go to control heat and help preserve ring lands and heads. normal driving there fine, racing no.

[STiPWRD]

Fast forward to the 35 second mark. hahaha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcQe7xTCXHg
Classic


I did just this from my experience with these engines, the piston clearances are too tight from factory and leaning towards the outer limits of the specs is the way to go to control heat and help preserve ring lands and heads. normal driving there fine, racing no.
I thought the factory pistons in the EJ engines were cast and expand less - that's why their piston to bore clearances were so tight. Most people that race swap for forged pistons, which expand more, right? I measured my clearances with forged JE pistons around 0.0035-0.0037 if I recall.

[bstuke]

Fast forward to the 35 second mark. hahaha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcQe7xTCXHgNice!

So using what it says on the fill cap and going synthetic is good or bad?

I do have a case of Joe Gibbs LS30 I could start using on the next oil change.

[C.Plavan]

FYI- I have Forged pistons

I just spent almost a full 45 min talking with Phil @ Element Tuning.

He made me feel better. He said the factory ECU could be cutting in once I get around 250/260 and pulling timing. He says that could be loss in performance I feel. He says its most likely not an oil/bearing/clearance issue since I cut open my filters and they were perfectly clean.

Here are a few key "Nuggets" we talked about. (TRACK CARS ONLY)
1. Do not run a oil under 50wt on the race track in a purpose built track/race car. Especially in my hotter environment (over 100 degrees at the race track this weekend). The oil is like water at the higher temps we see. He suggested Redline 50wt, but the Mobil 1 15/50 is good also.

2. The oil pressure is the key to the EJ motors- On the track, you do not want to see anything under 60psi- or motor will be going quick (Bearing skimming). Between 70-80psi is ideal.

3. Dump the OEM subaru oil filters and use a OEM BRZ oil filter (Or Fram Extra Guard). They are a little bigger and should fit fine with stock headers. When they blew 3 motors while racing (before their Dry Sump kit) the regular oil filter did not catch crap. When they had the BRZ oil filter and the motor went, it caught everything.

4. He says the area I'm pulling my oil temp from on the block is perfectly fine. No issues.

I'm going to test this Friday before the race (104 degrees!!!), and if I am having major issues, I will have them use my race funds for another future race.


Hump block off fully compete:
http://i.imgur.com/e60nGaKl.jpg

[Bob_n_Cincy]

FYI- I have Forged pistons

I just spent almost a full 45 min talking with Phil @ Element Tuning.

He made me feel better. He said the factory ECU could be cutting in once I get around 250/260 and pulling timing. He says that could be loss in performance I feel. He says its most likely not an oil/bearing/clearance issue since I cut open my filters and they were perfectly clean.

Here are a few key "Nuggets" we talked about. (TRACK CARS ONLY)
1. Do not run a oil under 50wt on the race track in a purpose built track/race car. Especially in my hotter environment (over 100 degrees at the race track this weekend). The oil is like water at the higher temps we see. He suggested Redline 50wt, but the Mobil 1 15/50 is good also.

2. The oil pressure is the key to the EJ motors- On the track, you do not want to see anything under 60psi- or motor will be going quick (Bearing skimming). Between 70-80psi is ideal.

3. Dump the OEM subaru oil filters and use a OEM BRZ oil filter (Or Fram Extra Guard). They are a little bigger and should fit fine with stock headers. When they blew 3 motors while racing (before their Dry Sump kit) the regular oil filter did not catch crap. When they had the BRZ oil filter and the motor went, it caught everything.

4. He says the area I'm pulling my oil temp from on the block is perfectly fine. No issues.

I'm going to test this Friday before the race (104 degrees!!!), and if I am having major issues, I will have them use my race funds for another future race.

Great information Chad,
The factory ECU doesn't know the oil temp. Only water temp is an input.
Is it possible that coolant is also going up?
Bob

[Hindsight]

Thx for sharing the info!

[C.Plavan]

Great information Chad,
The factory ECU doesn't know the oil temp. Only water temp is an input.
Is it possible that coolant is also going up?
Bob

No you are right- he was thinking the ecu might think it is knocking. Coolant is fine.

[Sgt.Gator]

The "best" oil usually degenerates into an endless discussion. But I'll add a couple of comments about Mobil1.
A lot of people are haters on Mobil1. A lot of that may stem from the new Mobil1 standard GF-5 oil. What folks miss out on is the same criticisms are true for ALL GF-5 oils. That criticism is the lack of zinc and phosphous. Again, all GF-5 oils have lost their zinc, it's part of the GF-5 standard. I know one turbo rebuilder who swears the lack of zinc in the new GF-5 oils is why he sees so many shaft failures.

I have used Mobil1 Racing 0W-30. It has a butt load of zinc and phosphorus. It has outstanding high temperature characteristics. It has no detergents because it's the real race stuff you change after every race weekend. Do not use in a DD!
The downside is the cheapest you will find it is $20 per quart . And it's not at any regular autoparts stores. Amazon is best.

Based on the above I may go to Mobil1 Racing 0W-50. Same chock full of zinc and phosphorus. Same great full on racing oil as the above. It too is crazy expensive.

In the meantime I think Mobil1 European Car 0W-40 is a good compromise. Not GF-5. 25% more of zinc and phosphorus. Detergents. Specified by BMW and many other European car makers. And at Walmart it's on sale for $23 in 5 quart jugs. Mobil1 5W-50 is probably even better but it's almost twice as expensive and hard to find, $53 for 6 quart box on Amazon. Still a lot cheaper than the full on Racing oil.

Here's a pdf summary: https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.ashx

Here's the website with all the extra info: https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/mobil-1

A little additional info: My Corvette C6 Z06 specifies Mobil1 5W-30 GF-5. However I was at the race track this weekend and talking with a C7 Corvette owner. The C7 still specifies Mobil1 5W-30 for daily driving, but the owners manual now specifies Mobil 1 15W-50 for Track days. "Chevrolet recommends Mobil 1 5W-30 for service-fill oil changes and Mobil 1 15W-50 for track events and competitive driving."

[Scargo]

My experience with my STi track car: I run 5-30 Royal Purple XPR in the spring, when days may not get to 60 and tires have trouble getting up to temp. Otherwise I run 10-40 but I do not track my car in July and August. I agree with Sgt Gator and I hope we do not get into that quagmire of a discussion.
I have a factory short block with CP fully coated, forged, 8.2:1 compression pistons and 11mm oil pump. 395 WHP/393 TQ, 7,200 red-line @24PSI. This is with the external, K&N HP 3001 filter, Setrab #50-640-7612 (12.99" X 12.20"X 40 row) oil cooler and thermostatic valve. Nine quarts of oil. All this I've mentioned here in the forum quite a bit. It's on its third season and showing no signs of tiring.
FYI: yesterday's track temp was 77 and my oil and water temps did not get past 200. I hit the rev limiter all the time because Thompson is mostly a third gear track.

I was just on the phone with Gary of Larry's Auto Machine, AKA Larry's Power" in CT. Kenny Carlson is a respected machinist and Subaru engine builder for them. For my 818R destroker motor they are using close to factory rod and crank tolerances since the engine will only make 270 at the rear wheels of the 818.
I agree with everything Phil @ Element Tuning says about building a big, bad-*** Time Attack motor. Mostly, we are not building those kinds of motors. I will probably stick with the 10-40 oil for this new motor.
As an aside: Late last year a racing buddy had a long-block built by FlatIrons Tuning in Boulder, CO. It has blow-by like a mo-fo. It's doing OK. Runs like stink (meaning as powerful as mine) on premium pump gas, but he has lots of trouble keeping oil in the motor. He's about to put a KB oil control valve on his car. Got it at the Wicked Big Meet. The bottom line, I think, is that the rings were not gapped properly.
#2 aside: I am talking to a company that makes heat exchanger piping, similar to home heating copper hydronics tubing. I should have a quote shortly for two, 4-1/2 foot lengths of finned, 3/4" aluminum tubing with turbulators. The fins are flat, so that air channeled past the tubes will carry heat away fairly efficiently.

[C.Plavan]

Still getting too hot. Granted it's 100 degrees, I got 11 laps in a single session before I pulled off. I then removed the rear trunk lid. That did not help.
I'm getting tired of this car.

[Mechie3]

Are you running a built, rebuilt, or straight donor motor?

[D Clary]

how hot,oil temp or water? Did you try taking the bell pan off under the motor?

[TouchStone]

The guys who rebuilt my motor deleted the oil cooler. I don't remember their reasoning.

[Mechie3]

The cooler is a heater as well. It uses 190f coolant to cool the oil, which is good for a dd but not a race car. It also helps to get oil up to temp faster in a dd.

[sponaugle]

FYI- I have Forged pistons
I just spent almost a full 45 min talking with Phil @ Element Tuning.
He made me feel better. He said the factory ECU could be cutting in once I get around 250/260 and pulling timing. He says that could be loss in performance I feel. He says its most likely not an oil/bearing/clearance issue since I cut open my filters and they were perfectly clean.


Indeed Phil has had a lot of track time with his cars, and has seen most of the major failure areas. Are you datalogging stuff from the ECU when you are on track? If not, that would be a very very good idea... even just logging the knock correction and dynamic advance (plus RPM, abs pressure, etc). One of the keys to keeping EJs alive is to watch for knock events. If you get enough knock to pull the DAM down, you will certainly feel that.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

The cooler is a heater as well. It uses 190f coolant to cool the oil, which is good for a dd but not a race car. It also helps to get oil up to temp faster in a dd.

That has always been the conventional wisdom, although if the oil temp is 250 degrees and the coolant is 190f, it would cool the oil. I removed mine as well, and had it removed on my track car with any problems. On my GT-R, there are coolant intercoolers that link to both the oil and the transmission fluid, so the are normally all very close to the same temperature.

I would be most concerned with the cause of the loss in power at higher oil temps. If it is due to timing retard, that can exacerbate the problem, as the reduced timing will typically increase both EGT and oil temps.

Jeff

[305mouse]

Considering the amount of cooling developement/execution that you have done, I don't see anyone else with temps like yours. Could the issue be the sending unit or ecu?

[C.Plavan]

Considering the amount of cooling developement/execution that you have done, I don't see anyone else with temps like yours. Could the issue be the sending unit or ecu?

I am the only one really racing it. Everyone else (Even Factory Five) blew their motors up.

I will be adding a 50 row oil cooler in the front as a last ditch effort. If that does not work, I'll probably get rid of it and move on.

This looks interesting, but I will not be one of the first ones to buy/build it this time (I learned my lesson). Although, I'm sure Elan will do alot more proper testing.

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=130264

[flynntuna]

You've given so much to the community, I'd hate to see you give up on this. Heat management has been an issue with a lot of F5 cars. I've seen some solutions for venting the engine compartment in the GTM section, everything from louvers on the deck lid to NACA ducts in the belly pan. Hope you find a solution soon.

[Scargo]

I'd hate to see you pack it in. I do understand the frustration. I'm still having teething pains with the three diff setup/aftermarket controller in my STi. Spun twice in my last outing because something is wrong.
I see no reason why you cannot solve the oil heat issues. I hope you will try another sensor, gauge etc. and verify the readings with other parts.
To be frank you are mentioning FFR and other's failures which were not heat related. They should not be lumped together as pointing toward a failed race car package. It has shown great promise. You have shown great promise.
I just picked up my engine pieces from the machine shop. Now I can build my destroker motor. I hope to have mine on the track in the spring. Good luck!

[Mitch Wright]

Chad,

I am sure you have already talked to some engine builders about the possibility of an engine issue that is running up the oil temp? Sorry I didn't go back and look, does the water temp followed the oil temp up?

[C.Plavan]

I'd hate to see you pack it in. I do understand the frustration. I'm still having teething pains with the three diff setup/aftermarket controller in my STi. Spun twice in my last outing because something is wrong.
I see no reason why you cannot solve the oil heat issues. I hope you will try another sensor, gauge etc. and verify the readings with other parts.
To be frank you are mentioning FFR and other's failures which were not heat related. They should not be lumped together as pointing toward a failed race car package. It has shown great promise. You have shown great promise.
I just picked up my engine pieces from the machine shop. Now I can build my destroker motor. I hope to have mine on the track in the spring. Good luck!

Frustration is an understatement. Let me vent for a bit.

FFR does not even have a oil temp gauge (or didn't). Not sure they are even running a cooler (How could we know- The cars disappeared :) ). So I don't think anyone can say that was not part of the issue. Yes, the car shows great promise...... All of them have not proven reliable on the track. Sure, I could autocross all day long with it and not have a problem, or go grab something at the store if it was street legal. Racing or tracking a 818R is a whole different story, especially if you are not "Putt, Putting" around the track. I could have a successful track day going 80%, but I'm not wired that way. I'm full on racing out there, even when testing (old tires limited). If it was 40 degree's outside (when testing the FFR 818R) I'm sure I would not have a problem with heat either.

Regardless- I'm not new to this, and it's not my first rodeo. I have been racing wheel to wheel for over 17 years, on the track for over 22 years. I have built all my cars. I know there are growing pains with any new race car- but this is getting ridiculous. I'll be buying my 4th oil cooler for this car. Gauges and senders have been checked. These turbo's and suby motors are the only thing new to me. Currently I am running two Setrab oil coolers that are race recommended HP between 510-710HP total (64k-84k BTU/HR). I am running a detuned 283 RWHP (2266 pounds class minimum weight with me in it)- It's not like i'm running 600+ hp. The motor is a new built block from a 2013 STI (only thing added were 272 cams, springs, forged pistons). The car has heat related issues.

Ahhhhhhhh


Venting is good....... Now if I could get the rear of the car to vent..... It was so damn hot Friday.

[Hindsight]

Chad, I'm not a Subaru expert but I'd just be really surprised if you needed enough oil cooler for 1500HP to keep your temps down. Just doesn't make sense. I feel something else has to be going on. I'd look into what Jeff said about the timing.... call your tuner, give him the logs and ask him if he sees anything in there that might contribute to such high temps.

One suggestion I have to add an inline oil temp sensor to your line from the sump to the engine. You can get them here: http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/13696/Setrab_Oil_Coolers They basically allow you to keep all your existing AN hoses and fittings and it just goes between two of your existing AN fittings; provides you with a 1/8" NPT female socket that you can then put an oil temp gauge into. If the temps coming from the oil tank and going to the engine look good, then you know the issue isn't your coolers or your tank heat soaking. This would be valuable data.

Like the other's, I'd be sad to see you go as well. You've come a long way with the car and it seems you are only one issue away from fully dialed in.

[D Clary]

Hey Chad just thinking out loud again. I am familiar with turbos, not Subies. When I upgraded the turbo on my Mustang and when to the ceramic ball bearings. Turbonetics advised reducing the oil flow to the turbo. I have a .050 orifice to the oil inlet and have been running it that way for three years of street auto x and track days. My point is that if there is less oil being superheated in the turbo, maybe less heat overall into the oil. This is a ceramic bearing turbo, I don't know what yours is.. I do know that even with a water cooled turbo, the center gets 500 + degrees and your'e oil is transferring a portion of that. I know you're frustration but as you say it's not you're first rodeo, can't be you're first frustration. You have the car very fast you just have a big bug to work out. If nothing else you may just need to take a break and beat the Porsche.

[C.Plavan]

Chad, I'm not a Subaru expert but I'd just be really surprised if you needed enough oil cooler for 1500HP to keep your temps down. Just doesn't make sense. I feel something else has to be going on. I'd look into what Jeff said about the timing.... call your tuner, give him the logs and ask him if he sees anything in there that might contribute to such high temps.

One suggestion I have to add an inline oil temp sensor to your line from the sump to the engine. You can get them here: http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/13696/Setrab_Oil_Coolers They basically allow you to keep all your existing AN hoses and fittings and it just goes between two of your existing AN fittings; provides you with a 1/8" NPT female socket that you can then put an oil temp gauge into. If the temps coming from the oil tank and going to the engine look good, then you know the issue isn't your coolers or your tank heat soaking. This would be valuable data.

Like the other's, I'd be sad to see you go as well. You've come a long way with the car and it seems you are only one issue away from fully dialed in.

I have that for my 180 degree thermal fan switch back there. So I know when it hits 180 because the fans kick on. Plus, the gauge says the same thing.

It's not 1500 hp rated, the total is 510-710hp both combined. I should of been more clear.

[C.Plavan]

Hey Chad just thinking out loud again. I am familiar with turbos, not Subies. When I upgraded the turbo on my Mustang and when to the ceramic ball bearings. Turbonetics advised reducing the oil flow to the turbo. I have a .050 orifice to the oil inlet and have been running it that way for three years of street auto x and track days. My point is that if there is less oil being superheated in the turbo, maybe less heat overall into the oil. This is a ceramic bearing turbo, I don't know what yours is.. I do know that even with a water cooled turbo, the center gets 500 + degrees and your'e oil is transferring a portion of that. I know you're frustration but as you say it's not you're first rodeo, can't be you're first frustration. You have the car very fast you just have a big bug to work out. If nothing else you may just need to take a break and beat the Porsche.

The Blouch turbo already has the oil restrictor.

[xxguitarist]

Chad,
I'm sure i'm coming in late, and going over old news to you, and I haven't searched the thread for my answers.

What are your bearing clearances, is your motor AVCS, and what oil pump are you running, with what bypass pressure/shim count (and ideally, what RPM do you see it hit bypass pressure, and what RPM do you run most of the time on the track average?)

Other ideas- any chance you could log temps into & out of your oil cooler? Would show where the problem is coming from (heat generation or rejection)

Reasons I'm asking- the oil bypass generates heat. Too much pump for the oiling needs causes more bypass. Could be that the cooler isn't flowing enough oil (is all the pumped oil passing through the cooler?), or that it's not getting enough air.

[Hindsight]

Chad, have you asked around and searched in the NASIOC forum for guys who are tracking their cars? Maybe post your oil heat issues over there? Also, knowing when your oil hits 180 in the line to the cooler is different from knowing exactly what the temperature is at that point in the system vs within the engine. I think it would be valuable data. Maybe hard-wire the fan to the on-position and temporarily re-purpose that fitting for an oil temp sensor and add another gauge?

[DanielsDM]

Chad,
It would be a bummer to see you give up after all this work. As others have said there must be something else going on. Have you measured the temps before and after the oil cooler(s)? A pair of tape on thermocouples and a handheld meter would work for a temporary setup.
www.amazon.com/Fluke-52-2-Input-Digital-Thermometer/dp/B00012Z124/ref=sr_1_4?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1434430167&sr=1-4&keywords=fluke+thermocouple
Maybe the coolers aren't working as well as they should be.

For reference this car is running 600+HP and is raced hard for much longer than a 20 minute session, finished 2nd overall in the 25hrs of Thunderhill 2012.
42733
It does not have an air to oil heat exchanger, but uses a coolant to oil one like this:
www.summitracing.com/parts/cir-40-00002/overview/

With your HP level your setup should be more than adequate. Keep looking and I'm sure you'll figure it out.

[Sgt.Gator]

The dry sump tank must be getting heat soaked from the engine bay. Is there any way to move it into the passenger compartment or the front area?

[icky]

The dry sump tank must be getting heat soaked from the engine bay. Is there any way to move it into the passenger compartment or the front area?

I was thinking the same thing, try to move your oil tank to a cooler place? High temp heat wrap is fairly dense so its not that great of an insulator, just better than nothing.

[Wayne Presley]

I'd like to see the temp gauge inline before the motor instead of being in the motor. The Lotus has two 11x8" core oil coolers and a similar sized radiator to the WRX and the oil was at 240 F° with 250RWHP in the SC car. I'm thinking that the ECU is hearing some detonation and pulling the timing when it gets hot and that is the power loss you are feeling and not the motor tightening up.

[DanielsDM]

That's a good point Wayne. Chad, are you able to log data from the ECU? An OBDII reader, a smart phone and an app like DashCommand makes an inexpensive data logger and allows you to read all the data on the CAN network.

[Hindsight]

The Lotus has two 11x8" core oil coolers and a similar sized radiator to the WRX and the oil was at 240 F° with 250RWHP in the SC car.

WOW, I would not have guessed the Lotus needed so much oil cooler for 250RWHP. Good to know.

I guess if you aren't ducting the 818 front fascia side vents to the brake rotors, you could always fit one oil cooler behind each of them.

Where do you put the oil coolers on the Lotus?

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad's car after all cooling mods:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Biw-TkmE_OkpDFLcDKU2KbQs5KwuDdbGMXXQ_cJtUrM=w1371-h908-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7iDluHpCw_IvH53BIuznuV7ssEPddFRs2jw9AwvDqLo=w1024-h636-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Sbcs4YpNQ0IKqZyc2Gswtes-xFpVI5pAvT-kT_45C8=w1280-h848-no

;)

[C.Plavan]

Haha- True!

[Mechie3]

I'd take that over an 818. It looks badass!

[C.Plavan]

I'm still wanting one of these. I'm already past $ halfway cost with the 818R. Shoulda, woulda, coulda.

http://i.imgur.com/IlmmIa9l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1qTmWJzl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8v1iGfVl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ndlLJlM.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ef6oHDql.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xQdcCn9l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Rk0Sd2ol.png

[metalmaker12]

It's cool but way to much$

[C.Plavan]

It's a deal compared to my 818R time, cash, and energy.

[D Clary]

Wouldn't you be doing the same R&D on that one?

[C.Plavan]

Wouldn't you be doing the same R&D on that one?

For sure, but they are using proven race parts/motors/trans. Élan makes other race cars for major series.

Much safer also since it is enclosed (selling point for my wife :) )

[D Clary]

Great Idea, wait until someone gets done and pissed off at their Elan project and trade them.

[C.Plavan]

Great Idea, wait until someone gets done and pissed off at their Elan project and trade them.

Haha. Just wait Young Grasshopper ��

[Sgt.Gator]

I'd take that over an 818. It looks badass!
Radicals look badass and they are badass! The Radical SR8 LM has the fastest production lap on the Nürburgring, a record held since 2009. The second fastest car? A Radical SR8, a record since 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times

The new one pictured here is supposed to be the most aerodynamically advanced open top Radical ever made, the RXC Spyder. Of course it costs $175,000!

However I think there are things we can learn and apply to an 818R. Like the faired in roll bar?

[Frank818]

Oh that blue color!! I need to find a wrap with the same color!

[Brando]

"The latest-generation RPE 3.0-litre V8 engine develops an incredible 440bhp at up to 10,500rpm, yet is also warranted for up to 40 hours between rebuilds - the equivalent of a whole season's racing use."

40 hours between rebuilds? At first thought it seems low, but then I contrast it to my experience thus far and it's a 40x improvement.

That thing is pretty sick

[Scargo]

I believe the Palatov's are a similar breed. Brando, don't give up on the Subie motor. I am approaching 40 hours on my STi track car motor. 7,200 RPMs, 395 WHP (AWD) 393 TQ. Should I be cringing, waiting for the big ka-boom?

[Scargo]

Back to the real world and heat issues. I just received a quote for finned tubes to run from the front to back for cooling oil before and after an oil cooler.
Tube Specifications:


Aluminum Tube - 3/4" OD x 0.035" w x 48" OAL Inches, with turbulators. The fins are a linear, flat fin design. Two lengths= $344. I will probably order these but i will not take delivery of them till September since I will not be back on the car till then. I will weld AN fittings on each end.
If anyone wants more specifics PM me. I'm not going to promote something that may not work or suggest a group buy or anything like that until I've tested it.

[walt555]

Hey Chad did you verify the water thermostat in the motor? I think the stock one is about 200F. When I first got the wrx I changed it out to a 165F to be more knock resistant.

[metalmaker12]

When it comes to road racing air to air intercoolers are the way to go. In this setup you will have to get crafty

Here's a thought for the intercooler and oil coolers

43125

[walt555]

[QUOTE=walt555;203465]Hey Chad did you verify the water thermostat in the motor? I think the stock one is about 200F. When I first got the wrx I changed it out to a 165F to be more knock resistant.[/QUOTE
Sorry for the dumb question. Your probably already got something lower than stock in there.

[C.Plavan]

Hey Chad did you verify the water thermostat in the motor? I think the stock one is about 200F. When I first got the wrx I changed it out to a 165F to be more knock resistant.[/QUOTE
Sorry for the dumb question. Your probably already got something lower than stock in there.

Not at all a dumb question. Sorry for the late reply, I have been taking a break from the car. It's also a very timely post, I have a 154 degree T-Stat sitting on the workbench. I plan on installing that when the new silicone radiator hoses get delivered. I can almost guarantee that AJW did not installed the lower temp T-Stat.

[C.Plavan]

Look what saw the light of day yesterday. The Prototype chassis #000. The whole body can be removed in 10min with 1/4 turn fasteners.
http://i.imgur.com/dLEuDV2l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/dqQkbgMl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Rr8pZlXl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/03jd91sl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/13offy8l.jpg

Meanwhile, I'm adding my third oil cooler into the car drivers side front. It's the same size as other oil cooler on passenger side, but I moved the splash guard and cooler forward more away from wheel. I just need to go grab some bigger hose clamps for the bumper to oil cooler ducting hose.

Next up is installing a racing thermostat (coolant) and some silicon hoses, then bleed and fill back up. I'm shooting for testing on Friday. I hope it works, then I have the NASA championships at Laguna Seca at the end of the month.

[Frank818]

Wow, what a car. Super low but awesome.

Good luck on the oil, hopefully this time is the real deal.

[metros]

Cool pictures.

Hope this is enough for you. I'm assuming these are all ran in series? Any downsides to having that length of oil lines? (Other than weight of course) Will it affect oil pressures?

[Flamshackle]

I'm adding my third oil cooler into the car drivers side front. It's the same size as other oil cooler on passenger side, but I moved the splash guard and cooler forward more away from wheel. I just need to go grab some bigger hose clamps for the bumper to oil cooler ducting hose.

Next up is installing a racing thermostat (coolant) and some silicon hoses, then bleed and fill back up. I'm shooting for testing on Friday. I hope it works, then I have the NASA championships at Laguna Seca at the end of the month.

Fair to say we are all watching and waiting to hear some good news :-) go well man can't wait to hear how the car performs.

[C.Plavan]

Oil lines, oil lines everywhere! :)
http://i.imgur.com/K4C8CpEl.jpg (http://imgur.com/K4C8CpE)

[longislandwrx]

What thermostat are you planning on running now? Just a std 160 or something fancier?

[C.Plavan]

What thermostat are you planning on running now? Just a std 160 or something fancier?

Just a 154 degree Mishimoto Racing one. I'm not expecting miracles as no one should when replacing a thermostat, but it will help the engine oil heat exchanger for a bit :/ . Better than the 172 degree one. I would not put a lower T-stat in a street car, but a race car with constant revving, and higher temps wont hurt (not stop and go).

I also found out my primary fan #1 fuse was blown when I filled the coolant system (I hotwired the second fan to help with IC HE). That would explain the creeping coolant temps last practice, I thought it was the 105 degree ambient outside temp.... Thats fixed. I used the Airlift coolant filling vacuum tool. I'm very impressed with it. It worked awesome on a fully drained coolant system.

I also uncapped the passenger side radiator port (and took bolt out since I tapped it earlier) and ran a 5/16th hose back to the degas tank. It's pretty easy to do when you have an R with a cage, it's a straight shot. I tee'd it in with a 5/16th, 3 port adapter to Wayne's coolant mod hose, then to the degas tank. This is the first time I am confident there are no air pockets in the system. The Airlift, Wayne's mod, and the new hose run from radiator made the burping process much less of a chore without any surprises.

Both front oil coolers are ducted and working well. No leaks. We will find out Friday if this was a waste of time or not.

One thing else I'm going to need to do is drill some vent holes on the top of the passenger door. The oil lines that I have running through them need some ventilation, it gets hot in that enclosed door space.

[wleehendrick]

Oil lines, oil lines everywhere! :)

http://preview.images.memegenerator.net/Instance/Preview?imageID=2866457&generatorTypeID=&panels=&text0=Oil%20lines,&text1=oil%20lines%20everywhere!&text2=&text3=

[longislandwrx]

Both front oil coolers are ducted and working well. No leaks. We will find out Friday if this was a waste of time or not.

Any loss of pressure with 40 feet of oil line?

[C.Plavan]

Any loss of pressure with 40 feet of oil line?

Nothing on the gauge. Everything looks good.

[bbjones121]

Looks great. I hope everything goes well this Friday. Good luck.

[Flamshackle]

I cant wait to hear the results. Stoked you found the blown fan fuse.

All the best!

[C.Plavan]

T-minus 20 min- a nice 80 degrees today.
http://imgur.com/G43YTRl
http://i.imgur.com/G43YTRl.jpg (http://imgur.com/G43YTRl)

[matteo92065]

looks great.
May your lap and oil temps be low.

[longislandwrx]

just got a turboner from that picture.

be cool.

[flynntuna]

Ditto be cool.

Don't know if it's Comic-Con being in town or what but the first thing I thought of when I saw the umbrella in the car was what is Dark Helmet doing in the car? :rolleyes

[Flamshackle]

T-minus 20 min- a nice 80 degrees today.
http://imgur.com/G43YTRl
http://i.imgur.com/G43YTRl.jpg (http://imgur.com/G43YTRl)

Duct tape rolls holding the umbrella down... Is there anything duct tape can't do?

[C.Plavan]

Alright fella's. I think I'm done with this car. I like racing better that wrenching. Same issues. I'll sell it complete, or as a roller. Make reasonable offers. Stress reasonable. The car handles like a dream- I was passing Porsche cup cars again.

The Good Ole' reliable Porsche is coming out of retirement.

[Flamshackle]

Alright fella's. I think I'm done with this car. I like racing better that wrenching. Same issues. I'll sell it complete, or as a roller. Make reasonable offers. Stress reasonable. The car handles like a dream- I was passing Porsche cup cars again.

The Good Ole' reliable Porsche is coming out of retirement.

Oh man that's bad news. Creeping water and oil temps?

[C.Plavan]

Oh man that's bad news. Creeping water and oil temps?

Ran 30min fine, then the same ole thing. Oil, not water.

[Frank818]

Oh crap. :( That really sucks like hell. So sorry about that. Hopefully she goes in other good hands.

Which Porsche is coming out of retirement? Would be nice seeing a GT3 RS 4.0.

[flynntuna]

Oh man, this doesn't seem real! You've done everything imaginable. (over kill some would say) From what you've put in the car you would think you'd have problems getting to temperature.