Plavan's 818R Build Thread

[metros]

Any new video?

30 minutes to reach the danger zone is much longer than before, right? Some have argued it's the location of the temp sensor. But changing the amount of time it took to reach the danger zone would prove that sensor location isn't dictating temp readings. I guess that's only with everything else being equal (ambient temp).

[Frank818]

After second thought, I think it's worth pursuing investigation. I would not let go, I would not accept being beaten by one car problem I can't find/fix.

Let's try thinking out of the box, I have a few ideas, some may be costly, but if they are winners, I personally would do it. But it's up to you of course, it's your car. It's just that I think it's worth it, you've put so much time on it, everything runs fine and it's a blast to drive, it's just that one thing to fix.

[Erik W. Treves]

Oh man, this doesn't seem real! You've done everything imaginable. (over kill some would say) From what you've put in the car you would think you'd have problems getting to temperature.

Yep I am saying there is something else going on...wrong place for the sensor or bad sensor. ..no possible way it's actually that hot if you engine is healthy..

[Mechie3]

I'm still baffled that you have these problems while quite a few tracked subarus don't. Sorry to bear of your troubles.

[Frank818]

Did he ever change the sensor?

[metalmaker12]

Ran 30min fine, then the same ole thing. Oil, not water.

No way temps are that high, something's reading wrong brother.

I beat the hell out of mine today and temps didn't get to hot

[C.Plavan]

Sensor is fine guys. Repeat: sensor is fine. It's something else.

[Flamshackle]

Oh man, this doesn't seem real! You've done everything imaginable. (over kill some would say) From what you've put in the car you would think you'd have problems getting to temperature.

This is what I was thinking.

The track Subarus here in Aotearoa don't have that much real estate in the oil cooling department. it has to be something else.

Please don't throw in the towel on this car. surely its worth getting it sorted after all that work.

Great to hear that it handles like a beast.

[JeromeS13]

IMHO, you need more data. Temp before and after each cooler. If the cooler efficiencies are within proper range, there's something wrong with the engine... Either clearances, or you need to play around with oil viscosity. Don't give up.

[Flamshackle]

Things I have learned in 20 years of racing.
#1 Racing isn't cheap
#2 Do it right the first time, otherwise it will cost you twice as much
#3 Read #1 again
#4 Prepare for the worst
#5 Have fun

Let your own learning guide you through this Chad. We are all wanting this thing to be rewarding but if you give up now you will just resent it forever. Fix it, have fun and then sell it. Its the best way forward trust me.

[Tamra]

Chad,
I'm sure i'm coming in late, and going over old news to you, and I haven't searched the thread for my answers.

What are your bearing clearances, is your motor AVCS, and what oil pump are you running, with what bypass pressure/shim count (and ideally, what RPM do you see it hit bypass pressure, and what RPM do you run most of the time on the track average?)

Other ideas- any chance you could log temps into & out of your oil cooler? Would show where the problem is coming from (heat generation or rejection)

Reasons I'm asking- the oil bypass generates heat. Too much pump for the oiling needs causes more bypass. Could be that the cooler isn't flowing enough oil (is all the pumped oil passing through the cooler?), or that it's not getting enough air.



IMHO, you need more data. Temp before and after each cooler. If the cooler efficiencies are within proper range, there's something wrong with the engine... Either clearances, or you need to play around with oil viscosity. Don't give up.

I agree with the above.

[C.Plavan]

The motor came from AJW. They never called me back when I asked about bearings ect. I'm guessing the bearings are stock for a 2013 sti block. Oil pump is stock. forged pistons, rods.

I think it is ECU related. It ran fine with the oil temp a 220 for 30 min, then if feels like there is a "timer" on the motor, after a certain amount of time, it starts to lose power and the oil temp starts climbing. This time it started loosing power, the oil temp was still fine for a bit unlike before, then I let off and started cruising to come in, and the oil temp started rising. Could be fuel getting warm too.

I'm just tired of throwing money at this car. I have other things I want to do/build. I'm still not sold on the safety of an open top car either (especially the R is stock form). I'm thinking $25k as a roller complete with everything without the engine. I'll include everything else- iWire harness for 2006 wrx, Legacy GT trans with LSD (Modena)) Element tuning Dry sump, fire system, Fuel Safe fuel cell, AWIC, 2 complete sets of Team Dynamic racing wheels (one with brand new never used Hoosier A7's) and all the other "new" stuff since my car was a non donor build. All you need to do is throw your engine in. If you want the complete car with motor $29K (Tial External Wastegate, Blouch DOM 1.5.). Comes with NASA ST2 logbook and 2015 Annual Tech sticker.

I also have an extra Legacy GT trans for a spare.

[metros]

FFR should pick this up and put their team behind it. It would be a great place for them to start from.

[Sgt.Gator]

I understand your frustration and need to move on. I'm sorry to see you in this pickle.
The only thing I can think of is to move the oil tank to the front of the car, away from the engine bay.

I cancelled my R order and year ago but your car is tempting and it's not that far away for me to drive down with my trailer. Unfortunately I bought a California 2008 Spec B that was someone else's 3 year headache, and now it's my headache. Once the Spec B is fixed and sold I will consider taking on this problem child if you still have it.

BTW, I used to race with Zack, the Corvette you match times with. He's a great guy. He co-drove my Legacy in an enduro with me last year. Please tell him Gator says hello!
Don't hate on Corvettes, the ones that race don't wear gold chains and pinkie rings!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Chad,
I know you are getting lot of advice, so I will make this short.
Is it possible the scavenge pump is not keeping up, allowing oil to build up in the block?
The crankshaft turning in a pool of oil would fell like a big power loss.
This would also take all that lost power and super heat the oil in the block. Like a water-brake dyno.
Bob

[C.Plavan]

Hi Chad,
I know you are getting lot of advice, so I will make this short.
Is it possible the scavenge pump is not keeping up, allowing oil to build up in the block?
The crankshaft turning in a pool of oil would fell like a big power loss.
This would also take all that lost power and super heat the oil in the block. Like a water-brake dyno.
Bob

Could be. I'm just at a loss. I had a engineer racer buddy send me this. He thinks I could be "Whipping" the oil. This makes more sense, but then again who knows?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noO16P5vSwQ

[Sgt.Gator]

I think air mixed into a froth causes a loss of oil pressure which should be obvious before it gets too hot.

[dirty kurty]

Metalmaker, Bob, Tamra, what oil viscosity are you running in your engines?

Chad did you ever try a XX-30 oil?

If you oil temp is going up and you water temp is constant or going down (like when you backed off to go in the pits) the heat is coming from something in your oil's path, or the oil itself is causing the problem, plain and simple. Did you ever open the engine to inspect for premature wear in any bearings?

XX-50 oil has ~twice the viscosity of XX-30 at very high temps. This isn't always a good thing. In tight tolerance bearings you can get shearing with higher viscosity. Higher temps lead to tighter tolerances.

Shearing -> Loss of lubrication -> Heat -> Even tighter tolerances -> More shearing.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Metalmaker, Bob, Tamra, what oil viscosity are you running in your engines?

Chad did you ever try a XX-30 oil?

If you oil temp is going up and you water temp is constant or going down (like when you backed off to go in the pits) the heat is coming from something in your oil's path, or the oil itself is causing the problem, plain and simple. Did you ever open the engine to inspect for premature wear in any bearings?

XX-50 oil has ~twice the viscosity of XX-30 at very high temps. This isn't always a good thing. In tight tolerance bearings you can get shearing with higher viscosity. Higher temps lead to tighter tolerances.

Shearing -> Loss of lubrication -> Heat -> Even tighter tolerances -> More shearing.

I'm running Rotella T6 Full Synthetic 5w-40. Recommended by my Tuner ( https://turninconcepts.com/ )

I don't run nearly as hard as Chad. The hardest I have done so far is 12 autocross runs in a 1 hour period.
Bob

[D Clary]

Sorry things didn't work out Chad. I kind of had my doubts at the third oil cooler. I track and autocross my turbo Mustang and I can tell you there is a lot more abuse on the open track, If you have watched Chad's videos he is close to 7k all the time. Most of my time is at Sonoma where you are only at full throttle about half the time. Autcross is short bursts with a long wait. The point is that Chad is stressing everything to the max. (including Chad). I think on one hand you are right Chad, you may not need to sell it, but you need to step away from it. Race the Porsche and enjoy the rest of the Summer. Maybe some of us will catch up to you and solve some of these problems. Thanks for your effort. Is crowd funding still an option?

[C.Plavan]

I tried 0w-40. The problem going lower is oil pressure. You have to keep the oil pressure up running like I do. Not sure I would feel safe going to 30 weight oil, but then again I don't care if the motor blows at this point. Lol

[dirty kurty]

I think you need to focus on what is making the heat rather than how to get rid of it. Have you talked to any Subaru road/rally racers (maybe even try Subaru) to see if this is a common problem? Subaru's GT300 doesn't appear to have as much cooling as your car and they race that thing pretty hard.

Could you try to change your gearing or driving style to keep the revs lower (like 5500?) as much as possible and still keep the lap times down? If I recall your power/torque is pretty flat in at least the ST2(?) tune so this should be possible right?

Before selling the car I would do one of the following:

Best: Tear down the engine and look for problems. Or pull the engine and run it on a dyno and see if you can reproduce the problem and quantify it.

Next best: Run the car on a wheel dyno long enough to make the problem show up and again quantify it for things like revs (does it show up only with long periods at very high revs or can you make it happen at full throttle at 3500-4000rpm).

Quickest: swap the engine out with a loaner (maybe from another 818 owner) or even a running junker (even a junker's engine should last long enough to heat soak the system). I know it's not that easy but it will at least give you a definite answer on whether it is your engine or the application/insufficient cooling.

[Hindsight]

I would be very, very curious to see ECU logs showing timing, fuel, and boost over the course of the last race. My guess is that you'd find something pretty revealing there. Are you logging that stuff?

[bbjones121]

Sorry to hear this Chad.
I know the engine is in the rear on the 818, but the subaru is a world class rally race car. Do they not push cars in a rally race that much or does the engine placement have that much of an impact. I think subaru is even racing in some 24hr lemans races now.

[C.Plavan]

I would be very, very curious to see ECU logs showing timing, fuel, and boost over the course of the last race. My guess is that you'd find something pretty revealing there. Are you logging that stuff?

Yes- it is logged. I'm going to have my tuner look at it again.

[RetroRacing]

My guess is the ecu is retarding timing and over heating the engine. this would answer both the power loss and the oil temp, we see it happen in rotaries every once in a while with a bad knock sensor

[Mechie3]

Did you install the knock sensor? It does have a specific orientation. Local subie guy put his in wrong last week and it caused all sorts of problems.

[C.Plavan]

Did you install the knock sensor? It does have a specific orientation. Local subie guy put his in wrong last week and it caused all sorts of problems.

Motor builder did. I'm going to check it and have tuner decrease the sensitivity. When I had it on the dyno, rocks flying off the Hoosier tires hitting the aluminum splash guard sounded identical to the dreaded ping or knock. Still wonder if that's what happening.

[Frank818]

Is there a reason you are running a knock sensor on a race engine?
I know they are meant for protection, but if they aren't adjusted perfectly, they will trigger while you race.
Anyway, when the sensor kicks in, it's already too late, it knocked. But still it prevents further knocking, depends what you want.

[Doowop]

Chad,

I have been following your thread and I love all the stuff you did on the car. For me you are too close to be done to quit right now. I understand the frustration. I had those racing when you spend $400 in registration on a race weekend and the car ****s on you on the first practice, and you try things, can't figure it out and end up packing all you **** and leave a couple hours later....
I would love to help, and I am thinking that there are enough minds here to be able to help figuring it out. in order to do that and for people to really see where you are, and what you've done, would you be able to put together a little detailed schematic of your oiling system and a list of equipment and things you've done and checked. I think if we had that and had a log of things done, checked, installed we would be in a better position to help, and that might also help you. just an idea....

[Aero STI]

Chad, what about giving Phil Grabow at Element Tuning another call? He is one of the most hardcore small budget road racers in the U.S. Subaru scene. Shipping your motor off to him for evaluation and rebuild would be an option too.

AJW giving you the cold shoulder on engine build questions is the last thing you need when trying to sort this out.

[Sgt.Gator]

Regarding a few folks asking about cooling in Subaru road race cars.....

Subaru road race cars are no more prone to heat issues than any other race car. One auxiliary oil cooler is all they need for the engine oil. Even running an FMIC that restricts and pre-heats the air going thru the radiator doesn't cause any particularly special heat issues. Chad's heat problem is not because of the engine design or some kind of cooling system defect in the production body race cars.

My car back when it was raced in 2006-2007 as part of the Subaru Road Race Team by Phoenix Performance and ICY Racing in the Grand-AM Cup. Despite running 2.5 hour Grand-AM cup races the car had no heat issues. I know this for sure because I have all the logs from where they raced it. One thing to note, they did add an auxiliary oil cooler and also auxiliary transmission and differential coolers, and they DID note high temps in them a couple of times:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PODYL_YAjfrQydGpJRXvLh-rF7mHzm8-NlDGefpH4zU=w965-h682-no

The biggest cooling change I've made is a NACA duct to the oil cooler and a heat extractor hood. However these were more for aero reasons than cooling problems. The stock hood has a scoop for the TMIC which is counter productive if you are running a FMIC. So this last winter I fabricated a new hood that adds more front downforce and also cools better:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/M8M7mYNaEa3Pr3R6CF5hfWhMohFRtgj_GpjVsBy71hQ=w903-h600-no


Which reminds me, if you aren't recording your transmission temps, you should be. I swapped in a 6 speed but tried to run without the trans cooler setup from the 5 speed. It didn't work, I get overheat alarms. I'm in the process of installing the tranny cooler to the 6 speed now. It's a different setup from the 5 speed as far as how it connects to the tranny. If ya'll are interested I can start a new thread in the R forum showing how to plumb the 5 speed (proven setup) and 6 speed (theoretical until I test it).

[Mitch Wright]

Gator,
Looking forward to your write up on the trans coolers. I have been talking to Joe and Andrew at Phoenix Performance (Joe and I drove for the same IMSA team back in the day) Andrew has said the they really didn't have heat issues until they started making over 400hp at the crank. Which they were able to manage by redirecting air through the Rod Davis radiator and adding the additional oil cooler as you have mentioned. BTW they ran a wet sump. Anyway that is I think good news for those of us the are running 250-300whp and running 30-40 minutes, I am still planning a drysump. I don't believe i see the type of heat that would be seen running an enduro. Ok back to work on my car and thanks for the info.

[Sgt.Gator]

Mitch,
VERY COOL that you drove IMSA with Joe! And Andrew has had an incredible couple of seasons winning multiple championships.
I'll put together a post on the tranny cooling setups.

Don't give up Chad! It's nothing like BoostJunkie's thread on NASIOC that has gone on for 5 years now and he has yet to race his car: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1921025

[longislandwrx]

here comes some more bad advice... how much time would it take to go back to a standard oil pan and run this on the dyno for 30 minutes straight?

[Mitch Wright]

I drove for Eddie Mecums Camaro Team in 87-88, Joe drove one of the sister cars. I think Andrew had just been born in 88, Joe and I have been friends ever since. I also know Dave Rosenblum really well, I talk to Dave every few months.

[Zach34]

More darts from peanut gallery: If the power loss precedes the oil temp rise, it has to be the tune, right? I mean, look at the oil cooler setup you arrived at for a motor making less than 300 hp - it can't be a cooling issue.

[Mechie3]

Not necessarily the tune. There could be an underlying mechanical issue causing excess heat generation that can be masked to an extent by oil coolers.

[DodgyTim]

I'd have thought a tune (lean) would show up in the water temperature as well (or more so?)
My guess (and it is a guess) is that an oil only temperature rise (given the huge oil cooling system) is related to high oil level in the sump (scavenging/frothing issue for the dry sump) or a bearing issue, maybe made worse by high g turns?

[Zach34]

I'd have thought a tune (lean) would show up in the water temperature as well (or more so?)
My guess (and it is a guess) is that an oil only temperature rise (given the huge oil cooling system) is related to high oil level in the sump (scavenging/frothing issue for the dry sump) or a bearing issue, maybe made worse by high g turns?

Sounds plausible, but why would it wait for 20 minutes before the temp starts to creep?

[DodgyTim]

Sounds plausible, but why would it wait for 20 minutes before the temp starts to creep?

I'd guess ( again ) that it would take some time to beat up the oil or for the oil level to build up in the sump due to insufficient scavenge pump flow rate at high revs
High sump oil level could explain the feeling of power loss too
If no metal is showing up in the oil filter again it would be less likely to be a bearing issue
the dry sump is one of the differences of Chad's build from most others, which might explain why it isn't a more common problem
OR it might be he beats on his car more than others have;)

[Frank818]

What if you drive the car slowly for 20-30mins, normal street RPMs in the 3-4k range and see if the oil still heats up?

That's an easy test to do!

[Mechie3]

Sounds plausible, but why would it wait for 20 minutes before the temp starts to creep?

Thermal capacity of the system. Same reason it takes 1 minute to boil 1 cup of water in the microwave and 5 minutes to boil 5 cups. With such a huge volume of oil and some cooling there as well it takes longer to reach high temps and/or equilibrium but it will still get there.

[Sgt.Gator]

Sounds like it's time for a Blackstone Lab oil analysis to rule in/out bearing issues.
The analysis may turn up other issues too.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

[Wayne Presley]

Chad,
Where is your oil temp sender?

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/oil%20Galley_zpsqyzoeco5.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/oil%20Galley_zpsqyzoeco5.jpg.html)

[C.Plavan]

Chad,
Where is your oil temp sender?

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/oil%20Galley_zpsqyzoeco5.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/oil%20Galley_zpsqyzoeco5.jpg.html)

Position A. But do say its too close to turbo or in a bad area. It's not the oil sender causing problems, the oil sender works fine and the position is fine per Subi racers. It does not cause the car to lose power. :)

[Wayne Presley]

A, B, and C are all the wrong position to measure oil temps. I would pick up the temp at the fitting coming back into the motor or in line with the oil cooler return oil. With synthetic oil, I wouldn't have an issue with 265 F°. I think you may be applying air cooled Porsche temp thinking since they are oil cooled as much as air cooled. I think you are chasing a power loss problem that is not oil temp related.

[C.Plavan]

Here is a excel log from the AccessPort. This is from the last session. When you see some 100% throttle position is when I am on the track. I was idling in the pits for a bit. Does anything stand out to you guys?
http://1drv.ms/1f1uFZd

[Sgt.Gator]

Here is a excel log from the AccessPort. This is from the last session. When you see some 100% throttle position is when I am on the track. I was idling in the pits for a bit. Does anything stand out to you guys?
http://1drv.ms/1f1uFZd


I don't know if Sponaugle reads this thread, you might PM him. He would be the one to know.

And to Wayne's point, you can add a oil temp sensor to any of the -12AN lines using this: Allstar Performance Inline Oil Temperature Tees ALL90041 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AAF-ALL90041 I'm mounting one tonight to monitor the oil temp as it leaves the dry sump tank, headed for the sump.

And this reducer to screw in the 1/8" sender: Aeroquip Reducers, AER-FBM5141, Fitting, Bushing Reducer, Male 1/2 in. NPT to Female 1/8 in. NPT, Aluminum, Black.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AER-FBM5141

[Zach34]

Here is a excel log from the AccessPort. This is from the last session. When you see some 100% throttle position is when I am on the track. I was idling in the pits for a bit. Does anything stand out to you guys?
http://1drv.ms/1f1uFZd

I'm as in-the-dark about this as anyone else, but something does stand out. I cut three sections of full-throttle data from the log at 383, 425, and 1085 seconds. The clip at 383 is one of the first stints of full-throttle data, and the clip at 1085 is one of the last. Notice how the ignition timing gradually retarded a total of about 3-4 degrees over the course of the log. Wastegate duty cycles decreased as well despite a slight increase in boost levels - indicating lower cylinder pressures probably from the reduction in ignition advance. All throughout the log are small negative corrections in the "Fine Knock Learn" column. Anybody know what that is? There are a few rare spots of negative numbers in the "Feedback Knock" column, too. Are those numbers cumulative corrections?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzrZJqJttneRWkZoTFFZRmItZ2s/view?usp=sharing

[Wayne Presley]

What program generated the datalog?

[Sgt.Gator]

It's a Cobb Accessport log.
From Cobb's pdfs on how it works:

Monitor: DAM
What it does: DAM, or Dynamic Advance Multiplier, is a learned correction that adjusts overall timing.
What the numbers mean: For the 02-05 WRX, this number ranges from 0 to 16. For all other turbo model Subarus, this number ranges from 0 to 1 in tenths of a decimal (ex: 0.8). The number advances upwards when no knock is detected and decreases for extreme knock situations. You always want this number to be at it’s maximum value.
Why you monitor it: If you ever see this number decreasing, you have a potential severe knock situation.
What to look for: The starting value will depend on the vehicle and tune, but it should always learn up to the maximum value. This value will reset to it’s starting point after a map Reflash, an ECU reset, or a battery disconnect. If you see this value begin to drop under any other circumstance, you most likely have a severe knock situation. You should immediately analyze the tune and mechanical condition of your vehicle.

Monitor: Fine Knock Learning
What is does: Fine Knock Learning is a learned correction that makes small corrections to timing once the DAM has settled.
What the numbers mean: The values are degrees of timing being added or subtracted. An initial correction is typically -1.4, but is learned away in increments of 0.35.
Why you monitor it: When Fine Knock Learning hits extreme values, the ECU may start to adjust the DAM.
What to look for: Occasionally under low loads you might see an initial knock value followed by several values of that number decreasing in the incremental value (ex: -1.4, -1.05, -0.7, etc). This would mean that the ECU is already learning the correction away, and would be nothing to worry about. These values would also immediately go away after an ECU reset. If the ECU is making consistent and multiple knock corrections under load (such as full throttle and full boost) all in a row, you could have a potential knock situation.

Monitor: Feedback Knock Correction
What it does: Feedback Knock Correction is an instant correction that the ECU applies to timing based on input from the knock sensor and in conditions where the learned corrections of DAM and Fine Knock Learning to not apply.
What the numbers mean: The values are degrees of timing being added or subtracted. An initial correction is typically -1.4 or -2.0 depending on the ECU.
Why you monitor it: Monitoring this can clue you in on instant knock correction.
What to look for: On occasion you might see a few initial correction values pop up under low load situations that do not respond to timing or fuel changes. Just like Fine Knock Learning, consistent and multiple corrections made under high load and not due to sudden throttle changes or shifts can be indications of knock. If you see corrections like this, you should immediately inspect the tune and mechanical condition of your vehicle.

[RetroRacing]

Graph it, much easier I find to correlate cause and effect

[johngeorge]

A, B, and C are all the wrong position to measure oil temps. I would pick up the temp at the fitting coming back into the motor or in line with the oil cooler return oil. With synthetic oil, I wouldn't have an issue with 265 F°. I think you may be applying air cooled Porsche temp thinking since they are oil cooled as much as air cooled. I think you are chasing a power loss problem that is not oil temp related.

Wayne nailed it! oil temps are normal! I regularly see 250deg in my Challenge car and the temperature is in the wet sump oil pan. You can imagine if I measured it at the oil pressure location it would be way hotter!

[Wayne Presley]

It's more that it that the oil is traveling nearly a foot through a heat generator ( the motor) before getting to the sensor and giving a higher reading. When he added the third cooler in clean air and the temps didn't change significantly that told me that not much additional cooling was occurring since the oil was getting close enough to ambient to minimize the heat exchange.

[bstuke]

It's more that it that the oil is traveling nearly a foot through a heat generator ( the motor) before getting to the sensor and giving a higher reading. When he added the third cooler in clean air and the temps didn't change significantly that told me that not much additional cooling was occurring since the oil was getting close enough to ambient to minimize the heat exchange.Could not have said it better..

[C.Plavan]

This has turned into a crazy thread. I appreciate the help, but people are only reading portions, and not the whole story. Then they think they have the story, and it is not what is happening.

My last run facts:

Oil temps ran at or under 220 degree for 23 min with no problem in race conditions. Once I noticed the power dropping out and looking at the video/data oil went from 220 to 240 degrees in 20 seconds. What sucks, is during this session it did not log on the Accessport, I guess I was too excited and forgot to hit the button. The log I shared above is from the second session, but I was not getting the same power drop off. The car ran at or below 220 for 10 min, then slowly went to 240 then I slowed up when it got to 250ish. Then again, I don't remember feeling the power drop like I did before.

As for the the oil temp sender location I am not at all worried about. Sure I can move it, I might, just to make you crazy people happy. :) Three suby race shops said it is fine where it is..... but that is not the problem. It is the rapid oil temp climb when I feel the car lose power.

I know what temps I can run synthetic oil at, that's not the main issue. The issue is the power dropping, then temps going up fast. Before I thought the oil temps were causing the drop in performance, but this time the drop in performance happened first, then oil temps went up.

Coolant temp peak was 210
AWIC peak was 136 (post-core)

[C.Plavan]

Could not have said it better..

Do you even have an oil pressure or oil temp gauge? I don't remember seeing one on your car.

[RogerB]

Congrats!! looks like it's going to be an awesome build..

[C.Plavan]

This is the video link once youtube is done processing/uploading.
http://youtu.be/iIuzvtT2aRE

[D Clary]

There is a lot of speculation going on. But you have to admit that something that you think is right, or have been told is right, is not right.

[C.Plavan]

There is a lot of speculation going on. But you have to admit that something that you think is right, or have been told is right, is not right.

I agree. Again, I appreciate all the help. I know everyone wants to help and see this car be reliable.

[matteo92065]

Congrats!! looks like it's going to be an awesome build..

This goes to Chad's point that people have not read the whole thread.
As I have read the entire thread; this build is closer to being finished or quickly, and sadly ended.

For your sake, I really hope you stick to it long enough to figure it out and get some really good track days.

I also have my own selfish reasons that these problems get fixed. You are posting some of the best 818 race data and that helps boost (pun intended) the 818's value. I think that you have individually invested more time and money into the 818 than anyone on this forum. This benefits all 818 owners, including me. If you throw in the towel now, it is a defeat for not just you, but the 818 platform.
When people ask me about the performance of the 818, I bring up stuff that you have posted:

The 818R will dominate 2nd, 3rd, 4th gear tracks against the Corvette's.

...4. The car is faster than the Lotus 2 Eleven race car records (1:59.3) on this race track Configuration...

...5. I was faster than 996 based Factory Porsche Cup cars out there....

Now, get a wrench, spend another 8 hours under the car, and order another $500 in parts!!!

[bbjones121]

Can you get any sponsorship money with logo advertising?

[Mechie3]

I'll just throw this out there, that I'm willing to help machine parts (for the cost of material) if it helps you solve these problems (haven't forgotten about that steering rack extension piece you wanted either if you end up keeping the car)

[D Clary]

I have also followed Chad's thread since the beginning while I was waiting for my kit to arrive. As I to have an R model there are some selfish motivations. My problem is Chad selling it for pennies on the dollar, ( and 25k is pennies for his roller) then someone fixes it with a tune or a motor, whatever. It just turns into one of the many failure kits an I think Chad has worked way to hard to see that happen. I think he is in a spin and needs a break. When there is time to look at things objectively sometimes the answer is right there.

[RetroRacing]

43594

please take a look, MAF seems odd?

[Zach34]

43594

please take a look, MAF seems odd?

Thanks for graphing that. The MAF could just be a result of everything else that's going on. The boost/wastegate numbers suggest the engine was ingesting more air toward the end of the log, so the MAF should have trended up, too, which it did. The ignition timing is the red flag to me. A 3-4 degree drop in advance would certainly be felt as a power drop off. It reduces cylinder pressures, sends unburnt fuel out the exhaust valves, greatly increases exhaust gas temperatures that are fed directly to the oil-cooled turbo, and will require the wastegate to close to keep spinning the turbo enough to sustain boost. So my question is, why is the ecu pulling timing? My only guess is the knock sensor. Do you dare try to run with the knock sensor disabled?

Again, I'm just spit-balling like everyone else, but seems to me like the ignition advance must be in some way culpable for the power loss.

[RetroRacing]

I just graphed about 13000 lines of date, and yes, running 10degrees of advance at full throttle with 15psi of boost is rather suspect, should be twice that?

[FFRSpec72]

I just graphed about 13000 lines of date, and yes, running 10degrees of advance at full throttle with 15psi of boost is rather suspect, should be twice that?

I assume that is total advance timing ? Under full boost and full throttle I would expect high teens/low twenties.

[DodgyTim]

Chad, I'm really reluctant to post, because I know you are overloaded with advice.

Oil temps ran at or under 220 degree for 23 min with no problem in race conditions. Once I noticed the power dropping out and looking at the video/data oil went from 220 to 240 degrees in 20 seconds.
A problem with the oil scavenge system could explain this:-
8 quarts of oil in the tank, sustained high rev operation delivers a lot of oil to the motor, scavenge can't keep up, the sump fills, engine beats the oil = loss of power + rapid temp rise
It would also explain why the temperature is appearing in the oil rather than the water
I searched your thread and couldn't find a close up of the scavenge pump belt drive, but the element tuning page shows a flat belt with longtitudinal ribs (like an alternator or aircon belt). Nearly every other scavenge pump system seems to use a cogged belt, more like a timing belt. Could it be as simple as belt slip at high revs?
It's probably $20 to trial fix it, with a new belt and a can of belt grip?

[Frank818]

8 quarts of oil in the tank, sustained high rev operation delivers a lot of oil to the motor, scavenge can't keep up, the sump fills, engine beats the oil = loss of power + rapid temp rise

And where do you fit in the timing retard in this?

Besides, what's the true reason to run a knock sensor on a race engine? If it's a race engine, it should already have a perfectly tuned timing map to prevent knocking, hence no need for the sensor. But that might be off the problem here, just curious to understand why.

[C.Plavan]

Chad, I'm really reluctant to post, because I know you are overloaded with advice.

A problem with the oil scavenge system could explain this:-
8 quarts of oil in the tank, sustained high rev operation delivers a lot of oil to the motor, scavenge can't keep up, the sump fills, engine beats the oil = loss of power + rapid temp rise
It would also explain why the temperature is appearing in the oil rather than the water
I searched your thread and couldn't find a close up of the scavenge pump belt drive, but the element tuning page shows a flat belt with longtitudinal ribs (like an alternator or aircon belt). Nearly every other scavenge pump system seems to use a cogged belt, more like a timing belt. Could it be as simple as belt slip at high revs?
It's probably $20 to trial fix it, with a new belt and a can of belt grip?

The belt is the same as a stock A/C belt. The car is still in my trailer in a "Time Out". I'll check that out.
I do want to check the knock sensor also.

[Mechie3]

There's a youtube video on how to test knock sensors too if you google "wrx knock sensor install". I had a friend over torque his and break it. Doesn't seem likely here though. I have no dry sump experience but I have seen lots of photos of kits with the toothed timing belt style. It does seem plausible that a standard ribbed belt, especially if not tensioned well, could slip at higher rpms and cause issues. I think the dry sump is one big difference on your car vs other 818R's that are on this forum.

http://www.reneswiss.com/subaru/knock.jpg

[Flamshackle]

A very experienced racer friend of mine who has worked with dry slumped systems over 20 years read this with me tonight and agreed that it looks like the oil in the dry sump setup is foaming and casing all the issues.

[C.Plavan]

I may have found a possible solution if the dry sump oil pump belt is tight. A fellow racer suggested this.
http://www.spintric.com/index.htm


And video from last test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIuzvtT2aRE

[RetroRacing]

Looking at the graph, here is what I see. Whether it is the problem or not, there is an issue with timing, in that it gets progressively more retarded (literally, no figuratively) under full throttle, as you progress through the session. It's to the point that under full throttle and boost, it's running at 10 degrees, half of what is should be. I don't know what triggers the Dynamic advance to pull 5.5 degrees of timing out, but it almost seems like the computer is learning, pulling out more and more total advance until total advance is at 15-16, and dynamic is taking an additional 5.

When the engine fires normally, the fire burns completely (or nearly so) within the combustion chamber. The heat is kept within the combustion chamber, and as the pressure drops during the power stroke, the superheated gasses cool. As the power stroke occurs, the cylinder absorbs the heat, and when the exhaust valve opens, the burned cool mixture is blown out of the cylinder and combustion chamber.

When timing is retarded, peak pressure and heat is delayed, and is not confined to the combustion chamber. Delayed ignition causes the peak heat and pressure to occur in the cylinder body itself. The flame actually burns the lubricating oil off the cylinder walls, causing more friction. As the combusting mixture is not under high compression, it is less dense, again causing further delays in the burn. When the exhaust valve opens, extremely hot, still burning gasses are blown out the exhaust port. past the valve. This flame heats the valve red hot, and superheats the head, manifold and turbo. Running an engine retarded for any length of time, under load, will cause valve burn out, and excess wear to the rings, piston, and cylinder.

So, before spending anymore money on parts, maybe pulling less timing? Again, just a rookie at all this turbo-computer stuff, but my mom sais I'm special!

Jeff

[RetroRacing]

BTW, I would never assume that the water temp sender is correct when it tells you water temp is fine. Everyone thinks its the oil temp sender that is that is faulty because it reads a number we don't like, but it's the truly evil sensor that tells you what you want to believe......

[C.Plavan]

I'm 85% positive after talking to some highly regarded people that it is an "Oil Aeration" problem. That would cause the "engine braking" performance loss (air is not a good lubricant), and inefficient oil coolers, and heat spike. Once the oil gets too much air (revving high only makes things worse for aeration, I was shifting sooner than I normally to see if it kept temps down), friction increases, cooling efficiency decreases. Double trouble.

In the last video, you can see the oil temp rise 20 degrees in 20 seconds once I feel the performance loss (oil temp gauge is above brake bias knob). The oil tank/oil gets too saturated with air after awhile..... It happens right before I pull off the track into the pits.
EDIT- right around 22:13 is when I notice power loss, watch the gauge..... 220-to 240 really quick before I pull off. I have been saving the motor every time I have pulled off once I felt the performance decrease. I have been cutting open my oil filters and everything has been good to this point. I need to cut this one open also. It pays to have a great "@$$-o-meter"



From my tuner- he has not seen the oil cooling ducting I have done since the last tune (and additional two coolers).


"The log actually looks great. Boost is well controlled even as dynamic load changes and the car is knock free aside for a tiny zone off load in the midrange where there might be a bit less than 1* too much timing which shows up as the fine learned knock. Under the whip, the car appears to be damn near perfect. The only thing I did notice is that timing seems to be affected by either a coolant temp or intake temp compensation as it seems to be proactively pulling a degree or so of timing under WOT as either intake air temp or coolant temp rises during the run. Without seeing those values logged, it is impossible for me to say which is the case. Given that the logs look very good from a knock perspective, I could reduce the influence of rising temps on proactively reducing timing.
Having said that, not having the compensations as active would only add back a little over 1* of timing. That would translate to roughly 6-8 whp at most. That would be barely palpable from the seat of your pants.
As for the high oil temps, there is nothing in the logs that point to anything that would contribute to that. So unfortunately I really can't help with remedying that based on the information provided. I can say that while I tend to work with more guys in TT style racing where few laps are typically run, I have not had any oil temp issues even on cars with over double the power of your car and much smaller oil coolers. The biggest thing would be efficiently channeling the air through the heat exchanger so that it is as efficient as possible. Having a ton of heat exchanger surface area is useless if ambient air cannot flow through the core and pull heat out of the fluid."

Needless to say, I just spent another $800 on stuff for this car........ http://www.spintric.com/index.htm The Engineer says this will cure my problem...... why am I so skeptical :P

[C.Plavan]

BTW, I would never assume that the water temp sender is correct when it tells you water temp is fine. Everyone thinks its the oil temp sender that is that is faulty because it reads a number we don't like, but it's the truly evil sensor that tells you what you want to believe......

I have 2 water temp senders. Stock and aftermarket. They both read the same. Technically 3 kinda if you count the Accessport (ecu).

[C.Plavan]

A very experienced racer friend of mine who has worked with dry slumped systems over 20 years read this with me tonight and agreed that it looks like the oil in the dry sump setup is foaming and casing all the issues.

Thats what I have working on the last few days. Makes more sense than other things, especially when the tuner says everything looks good.

[Hindsight]

The tuner says 10 degrees of timing at WOT is right? He says the ECU is pulling a "degree or two" of timing in response to something (guessing heat related - intake or engine) but a degree or two doesn't get you down to 10 degrees of total advance does it?

[C.Plavan]

The tuner says 10 degrees of timing at WOT is right? He says the ECU is pulling a "degree or two" of timing in response to something (guessing heat related - intake or engine) but a degree or two doesn't get you down to 10 degrees of total advance does it?

This is a foreign language to me. So I dont know. Maybe it has something to do with the detune I needed to stay under a certain hp maybe? I dont know. I shot him an email.

[Sgt.Gator]

How are you going to plumb the separated air from the Spintric that goes to your tank? There aren't enough fittings on the tank to have it as a separate line. And reading the Technical page I don't think you should plumb it to the same line coming from the vent in the heads. It's still about half oil, half air. Of course ARE will sell you a special tank top with the needed fitting!

I talked to Phil about the Spintric before I ordered my dry sump, he said there is no need for one. But then again he runs Time Attack so maybe he never sees this problem.

I hope this fixes your issue! Although I'm not looking forward to another $800 myself. There's also no room for me to mount the Spintric before the oil cooler, it would have to go behind it.

I also wonder if the way you have your PCV is plumbed if it's contributing to the problem of excess air. Maybe the hose from the old PCV crankcase vent should simply be plugged? I think I'll try that first before ordering the Spintric.

And wouldn't air in the oil show as a loss of oil pressure???

[Hindsight]

I understand Chad. I'm a former air-cooled VW guy so not too far from your Porsche experience. Mechanical advance distributors on air-cooled engines make it easy to not have to worry about stuff like that.

I am curious as to what your tuner says because even a 4 or 5 degree timing retard will provide a very noticeable power loss. 10 degrees is huge. The tuner could be correct in stating that the timing changes are in response to something else, but the most important thing here is that this is a very important red flag in troubleshooting the issue.

[C.Plavan]

Are you going to plumb the separated air from the Spintric to your line that comes from your heads/old PCV vent that goes to your tank? There aren't enough fittings on the tank to have it as a separate line.
I talked to Phil about the Spintric before I ordered my dry sump, he said there is no need for one. But then again he runs Time Attack so maybe he never sees this problem.

I hope this fixes your issue! Although I'm not looking forward to another $800 myself. There's also no room for me to mount the Spintric before the oil cooler, it would have to go behind it.

I also wonder if the way you have your PCV is plumbed if it's contributing to the problem of excess air. Maybe the hose from the old PCV crankcase vent should simply be plugged? I think I'll try that first before ordering the Spintric.

And wouldn't air in the oil show as a loss of oil pressure???

You just get a -12AN tee for the top vent. Then add it to that. My vent tank line and Spintric line will go to the top of the tank. You just make sure everything is "downhill" per Gary. Gary (ARE) is looking at my line routing (emailed pictures). Verbally, he said I was doing it right by not using the PCV system. He is double checking my pictures for me. The Corvette racers I race with are using the Spintric also- Lowers their oil temps and coolant temps.

Regards to Phil not using one. He also seems to think running 260+ oil temps are fine....lol

I'm just hoping this works, but for the first time I can grasp the cause and effect instead of chasing it with oil coolers. Heck, I might be able to remove my rear oil cooler and keep the 2 up front in the clean air. Fingers-crossed.

The dampening on my oil pressure gauge would not show the fast pressure fluctuations, but I can see them in the oil lines (moving/pumping).

[C.Plavan]

The tuner says 10 degrees of timing at WOT is right? He says the ECU is pulling a "degree or two" of timing in response to something (guessing heat related - intake or engine) but a degree or two doesn't get you down to 10 degrees of total advance does it?

From tuner:
"IIRC that was the part of the log that caught my attention as well too. Timing should be higher up top and was on previous forays in to WOT in the same load/rpm zone. There are no timing de-increments due to knock so there has to be a timing compensation in play. Without seeing coolant temp and intake temp logged I don't know for certain. I'm guessing either (or both) are getting very high towards the end of your session and bringing those proactive compensations in to play. Since you are running better fuel than you were tuned on I can reduce the influence of those comps and email you a new map. Next time out, log your coolant temp and intake air temp and we can adjust as needed."

[Hindsight]

That makes sense. Something is causing the timing to be pulled. I agree with the tuner that logging the IATS and ECTS will help get you to the next step. I am just confused as to why your water temps look fine but oil temps get high. The ECU doesn't look at oil temp (as you probably know) so it can't pull timing because of that. My advice is after you get the separator installed, make sure you log the intake and coolant temp sensors and see what happens.

[RetroRacing]

Sounds like progress, good luck, check your oil filter for signs of wear.
Keep us in the loop!

[Mechie3]

The 5 whys:

This happened
Why?
Because of this.
Why?
Because of this.
Why?
Because of this.
Why?
Because of this.
Why?
Because of this...which is the true root cause.

It's what they teach at work. If you stop at the first why you apply bandaids. Looks like we're getting to the end of the "5 whys"

[C.Plavan]

The coolant peaked at 210 or 212 IIRC. The IAT sender that I plumbed after the awic core/right before throttle body is 130-139 degrees (throttle floored) very dependant on right foot.

[Mitch Wright]

My experience is much like Retro and Hindsight timing retards under load at high RPM the engine temp goes up oil first then the water. We raced Datsun 510's and 240Z's back when, the Datsun Comp headers would hit the chassis and Steering box (510). To bend the header the 1/4-1/2 inch for clearance we would run the engine up too 4500rpm retarded timing from 28* to 10-15* which would glow the header red hot (in very little time) and bend the header problem solved.
I agree with some of the others I would take a good look at the timing before investing in more parts.
I know you are getting a lot of input but as others have said you are so close.

[DodgyTim]

With these sorts of issues its hard to determine cause from effect;)
Is the timing change caused by a temperature increase, or does a timing change for another reason cause the temp to rise? I'm certainly no tuner, so I won't comment.

If the power loss occurs immediately before the temperature rise, I'd say it is likely to be high oil level in the pan/sump
If you can feel a power loss it is likely 20-30hp??? That energy has to be going somewhere. The crank beating oil in the pan/sump may be causing the frothing and 20-30hp worth of heat is a significant amount:eek:

Because I'm a tight **se I'd always check the simple inexpensive things first, even if they are somewhat unlikely. I can't think of a way of real time measuring the oil level in the pan/sump (turning the engine off straight away and checking a dipstick when it happens is a bit extreme for the turbo :cool:) so the next easiest thing is to check the belt and maybe overdrive the pump or fit cogged belts/pulleys

[Sgt.Gator]

Next weekend I'll have my dry sump at the track (fingers crossed). It will be interesting to compare my oil temps pre and post dry sump installation.

[Flamshackle]

Thats what I have working on the last few days. Makes more sense than other things, especially when the tuner says everything looks good.

Really hoping this works out for you.

My good friend/engineer/motor inventor(rotary, 2 stroke and 4 stroke) racer of superbikes and radicals/dry sump specialist....... suggested that you should prepare for the worst. He said after watching a few of your amazing race footage video's that foamy oil will quickly damage your crank bearings.

I am sure you will already be thoughtful of this.

[bbjones121]

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

cheap check?

[Frank818]

The 5 whys:

This happened
Why?
Because of this.
Why?
Because of this.
Why?
Because of this.
Why?
Because of this.
Why?
Because of this...which is the true root cause.

It's what they teach at work. If you stop at the first why you apply bandaids. Looks like we're getting to the end of the "5 whys"

Hey I work everyday with that!


I don't understand what causes the oil to foam?

[C.Plavan]

Really hoping this works out for you.

My good friend/engineer/motor inventor(rotary, 2 stroke and 4 stroke) racer of superbikes and radicals/dry sump specialist....... suggested that you should prepare for the worst. He said after watching a few of your amazing race footage video's that foamy oil will quickly damage your crank bearings.

I am sure you will already be thoughtful of this.

Like i said before, I have been cutting the oil filters open after each trackday when I felt the power loss. I still need to cut this one open, but so far so good.

[C.Plavan]

This is the 818R problem solving manual.......Revision Z
http://minimemes.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/1399969536846.jpg

[Mechie3]

There's the problem. You need to throw it at the car, not the wall.

[bbjones121]

We don't overfill reciprocating compressors with oil at the refinery because it will foam up. Did you overfill?

[longislandwrx]

http://www.enginelabs.com/?p=140959

this was helpful.. such dollars!

[C.Plavan]

We don't overfill reciprocating compressors with oil at the refinery because it will foam up. Did you overfill?

I'm not a rookie :P The rule of thumb is 2/3 full (Warm oil, not cold), or just below the strainer looking down the fill top.

[RetroRacing]

I spin my 12a EP car to 10k pretty much every shift. We used to have a foaming issue that would first show up as pressure loss, then heat in the oil (rotaries us the oil for cooling the engine pretty much equal to water). We did two things, so we don't know exactly which one worked (I hate myself for that). One was incorporating a better step baffle in the oil pan, two steps rather than just the one plate. The other was to switch oils from Redline to Lucas then to amsoil. The lucas seemed to hold pressure better than the Amsoil, but at a price. It is said to have extreme anti foaming agents and our results may indicate that it does.
Can I ask the relative RPM of your dry sump? I ask only if it's over driven by the pulley ratio, because again, our drysump on the IMSA car at 8500 rpm doesn't share the same aeration issue so I find it odd.

Please ignore if these things are stuff you have already dealt with, just spit balling.....

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Chad,
I know you are getting lot of advice, so I will make this short.
Is it possible the scavenge pump is not keeping up, allowing oil to build up in the block?
The crankshaft turning in a pool of oil would fell like a big power loss.
This would also take all that lost power and super heat the oil in the block. Like a water-brake dyno.
Bob

Hi Chad
When I posted this back on 7-11. My thought the scavenge pump was the problem.
The oil would rise in the block until it would get emulsified with air by the crankshaft agitation.
I think you are treating the effect of the problem and not the root cause.

Why are you getting Oil Aeration?
Is it possible to add another stage to the scavenge pump.
Bob

[C.Plavan]

Hi Chad
When I posted this back on 7-11. My thought the scavenge pump was the problem.
The oil would rise in the block until it would get emulsified with air by the crankshaft agitation.
I think you are treating the effect of the problem and not the root cause.

Why are you getting Oil Aeration?
Is it possible to add another stage to the scavenge pump.
Bob

It's possible, but who knows. I think they would of figured that out before selling it in kit form. There is another kit that uses the same pump flow with 2 scavenge also. I'm sticking with my plan for now.

[bbjones121]

I'm not a rookie :P The rule of thumb is 2/3 full (Warm oil, not cold), or just below the strainer looking down the fill top.

I didn't mean to offend. But you probably are running more oil lines, coolers, etc. every which way than you ever have before? I would guess it would be underfilling issue with the massive oil "system" you have, but foaming is an outcome of overfilling in compressors.

[C.Plavan]

I didn't mean to offend. But you probably are running more oil lines, coolers, etc. every which way than you ever have before? I would guess it would be underfilling issue with the massive oil "system" you have, but foaming is an outcome of overfilling in compressors.

Not at all- just playing around.

[bbjones121]

Can't wait to see the new vents on your car. I plan to get as much air in my 818 as possible.

[C.Plavan]

Can't wait to see the new vents on your car. I plan to get as much air in my 818 as possible.

Wait till you see what Mechie is working on vent wise for the rear..... :)

[metros]

Looking forward to showering him with more of my dollars for cool parts. Ffr should make him a job offer.

[bbjones121]

Wait till you see what Mechie is working on vent wise for the rear..... :)

What!?!

[Mechie3]

Lol.

[Hindsight]

Me too.....

http://media1.onsugar.com/files/2013/06/17/777/n/1922283/4b335bba7661873b_make_it_rain.xxxlarge.gif

[Pearldrummer7]

Me too.....

http://media1.onsugar.com/files/2013/06/17/777/n/1922283/4b335bba7661873b_make_it_rain.xxxlarge.gif

Basically^

Except it's more like coins for me :lol:

[C.Plavan]

Thats been me on this whole 818R experience......

[Mechie3]

If I did that it'd probably last about 1/2 as long as the GIF. Haha!

[bstuke]

Wait till you see what Mechie is working on vent wise for the rear..... :)Nice..

[NorCal Ray]

Hey Chad, I've been reading all the comments about your oil heating problems, solutions , BS, and such. My son and I run a 4.6l DOHC Aluminator engine with a Kenne Bell Mammoth supercharger in a Cobra with a dry sump. Our oil tank is air cooled. We have a 3" duct coming from the front valance to the tank and 3' duct exiting. We have not had any oil heating problems. Just a sugestion. Please don't sell your 818R!! NorCal Ray

[Mechie3]

Things and stuff for Chad. More pics in my thread.

http://i.imgur.com/SS4cUoU.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Eb3X86h.jpg

[bstuke]

More pics in my thread.Way to spill the beans! Put me down for the first set and send me a bill!

[Hindsight]

They look great. It will be interesting to see how much heat they allow to exit. They are the highest point and heat rises, so that's good. The windshield won't allow much flow over them though, but at the same time, the windshield creates a big low pressure area behind it so that could help draw air out through those vents as well. All things considered, I bet they work pretty well and they look good too.

[Frank818]

Don't forget at engine shut down. Heat will exit by itself from these openings, might help reduce heat soak. And if someone really is overkill about preventing heat soaking (like me), it may be possible to fit in some small fans, one per hump. :) Obviously those fans would work as after-run, though they could also work while running.

[C.Plavan]

My R defies physics with anything aero, I'm not sure what they will do :)

Thanks Mechie for making those.

Speaking of vents- I found a perfect set of plastic vents to go on the rear bumper. I just need to cut the area then rivet these bad boys on. Amazon.com for $13.98/pr shipped from china.....lol

http://i.imgur.com/Pcy1nvll.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/SQBZeUFl.jpg

[bbjones121]

My R defies physics with anything aero, I'm not sure what they will do :)

Thanks Mechie for making those.

Speaking of vents- I found a perfect set of plastic vents to go on the rear bumper. I just need to cut the area then rivet these bad boys on. Amazon.com for $13.98/pr shipped from china.....lol

http://i.imgur.com/Pcy1nvll.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/SQBZeUFl.jpg

Sweet! I have been hoping someone would mold something, possibly VRaptor was, but these would work if I don't hear anything by the time I get tho that point in build. Can you send me link?

[C.Plavan]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PDI28WM?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00

[Frank818]

Chad, do you have a problem with heat at the bottom of the rear bumper? Unless you fit ICs like Porsche I just try to understand your gains with these vents. :confused:

[C.Plavan]

More flow, less "parachute" effect. I need a lot of exit air to make up for all the other things. Plus they look cool. Lol

[Bob_n_Cincy]

More flow, less "parachute" effect. I need a lot of exit air to make up for all the other things. Plus they look cool. Lol

Chad
You should stand behind my car when the fans kick on in high.
The radiator fins straighten the air flow. You can feel the breeze 50ft behind the car.
Bob
43915

[bbjones121]

Chad, do you have a problem with heat at the bottom of the rear bumper? Unless you fit ICs like Porsche I just try to understand your gains with these vents. :confused:

The porsche is not the only car with these vents in this location. Wheel well venting, sucking air down around the sides of the engine and transmission, and this is one of the few places that you can probably get a good low pressure.


My theory:

I don't even remember who did a string test, but the upper vent above the engine, but I thought the strings sucked in and did not push out. Thus, you are blocking air movement in the engine compartment by having the top vent and the side vents. I would guess the top pressure into the upper vent and the rear vortices prevent air movement from the side vents inward. You get stale air in the engine compartment.

Hopefully Craigs new vents at the top of the hoops allow any air push in by the rear or top deck vent to come off. Then again, any hot air taken from those hoops could just get pushed back into the rear car mesh. I am really curious to see how some of the rear radiator guys end up. The 818 and the Lamborghini Gallardo are some of the only cars that have an open vent in the middle of a flat rear end. Maybe the Lambo isn't even functional there. Most every other mid engine convertible exotic has that area blocked off or has gone through millions of dollars in aerodynamic evaluation to open up the rear end more.

Either way, you need some points on the car that will act as eductors and pull air out. The sides of the rear bumper, look at the Audi R8, can do that and I would think lower side bumper vents would help as well. A diffuser should also provide some eduction if the venting was directly above the diffuser, look at the lotus exige, FFR GTM, almost any diffuser on a ferrari or lamborghini, all have vents directly above the diffuser. Also, the opening behind the rear of the front wheels, look what FFR did with the side opening modification for the 818.

I know the 818 went through "some" wind tunnel testing, but that seemed to be more focused around the aerodynamics of the car, not for engine cooling. In a mid engine car, engine cooling should have been another reason to go back to the wind tunnel.

Having said all that, I would bet Chad is on the verge of figuring this all out for everyone. And we should all be extremely thankful for his efforts.

[metalmaker12]

FFR deff should have done way more wind tunnel development for proper airflow to intercooler !! This is why customers and FFR themselves have had issues with cooling the charged air, etc. they developed a cool car, but it needs much R&D improvement in the charged air cooling related to drivetrain integrity testing. This is why few have lasted long on a track.

In street driving the awic seems to work well in my 818. But remember my tune has zero timing added to control heat and I wrapped everything and have both radiator fans pulling air through awic exchanger

As far as oil temps, I don't have any issues with this in my street car, but apparently it's getting attention from the racers.

[C.Plavan]

If I were to do it again (Which I will never, never, ever do). I would buy a 3.0 thru 3.6L NA Porsche Motor, use 50mm PMO carbs and find a way to make it work in the 818R. Pure simplicity as it best. It would of been cheaper/lighter in the long run. It would of gotten better RMPG (Race miles per gallon). There would of been no need for AWIC (~$1400), iWire ($2200), Dry Sump and associated parts (~$3800), hoses fittings ($500), no radiator ($300), no aluminum coolant tubes (~$600), no need for 3 oil coolers and associated ducts/fans (~$1200) Total: $10K....... Now include the complete plug in race motor/ ECU, Key/immobilizer, Accessport, ($6800) Total $16,800 I could of built one super reliable/bulletproof 911 race motor. Not to mention all the labor of me R&D'ing things plus bigger turbo and injectors. You would not have to worry about coolant temps, AWIC temps, or Oil temps. It would just work!

I figure the weight saved would be at least 200 pounds after negating the weight of the bigger flat 6.

If you are considering building an 818R...... I hope this is an eye opener. I think there is a reason I'm the only one with an 818R on the track.

[Mitch Wright]

Chad,

I think the reason more are not on track yet is A) I my case I got my car much later than you B) again in my case opening a new business has me limited to 6-8 hours a week on the car. I will get more time once the season starts winding down in November. C) I planned for a 1 1/2 build to stretch out the expense and allow me to build the car I want to build. I am getting close to my first start, still need to make the rear AP caliper adapters. Once that is done it will be go kart time.
Trust me I and a number of others have watched your build and learned a ton. But I do plan on having to do some R&D once the car is track ready. (I do have the advantage of having a track outside my office door) I will be running a air to air intercooler, fuel cell, dry sump but the tank will be in the passengers compartment, AP Brakes, Wilwood Pedal Box, JDM twinscroll so I know once running that is running and track ready that just the beginning. And that is what I personally signed up for and enjoy.
I understand your frustration, every race car I have built seems to take at least a 1/2 season to sort out. It looks like the car is showing signs of brilliance and you are so close to over the hump.

[C.Plavan]

I know all about new race car sorting. This is just becoming a ridiculous money pit. If I knew this going in, I would of went a totally separate route. I just want others thinking about building a 818R to know what to expect. I also want others reading this thread to understand what the real costs are. Sure, you see the $10,900 kit price and people think......I can get this thing running for under $20k.... Nope. As we all know, the Factory Five Factory 818R's have basically been mothballed for over a year. I would love to see those on the track again.

If you want to build an 818R, build it with a Porsche motor...... :)

[C.Plavan]

Vents, vents, and more vents!

Thanks to Wayne and Mechie for making the fender louvers. I also installed my lower rear bumper vents to hopefully pull more air out of the rear. I'll be adding the hump vents that Mechie made for me (very quickly I might add) later.

http://i.imgur.com/peSVe3Gl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gmMfLKql.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/dCzrKGGl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/C2RW7ZYl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Khu5b8dl.jpg

[metalmaker12]

You could have gone H6 3.0-3.6 and had no issues with awic, etc etc. but a turbo engine running considerable boost no matter what company makes it creates power at the expense of heat. For the track a super light 818 with a powerful Na is key

I would go Honda S2k built to make 250whp with a subie 6 speed.

The 818 with proper setup will be a track beast.

[Mechie3]

Nice! First installed pic I've seen of the fender vents. Hump vents are en route. 3 day delivery but it said eta was Thursday since it was dropped off after final pickup today.

[C.Plavan]

You could have gone H6 3.0-3.6 and had no issues with awic, etc etc. but a turbo engine running considerable boost no matter what company makes it creates power at the expense of heat. For the track a super light 818 with a powerful Na is key

I would go Honda S2k built to make 250whp with a subie 6 speed.


The 818 with proper setup will be a track beast.

No dry sump kits for that motor (yet). Deal breaker for a track car.

[C.Plavan]

Nice! First installed pic I've seen of the fender vents. Hump vents are en route. 3 day delivery but it said eta was Thursday since it was dropped off after final pickup today.

Thanks Craig!

[Sgt.Gator]

It will be interesting to see if in a few years the H6 becomes the go to engine for this car. They already make a supercharger for it, now it just needs the dry sump "pan" for a racer package.

[mikeb75]

Those vents look serious! Hope all your efforts resolve the oil temp issue so you can recover some sanity & actually enjoy a few races.

[Flamshackle]

If I were to do it again (Which I will never, never, ever do). I would buy a 3.0 thru 3.6L NA Porsche Motor, use 50mm PMO carbs and find a way to make it work in the 818R. Pure simplicity as it best. It would of been cheaper/lighter in the long run. It would of gotten better RMPG (Race miles per gallon). There would of been no need for AWIC (~$1400), iWire ($2200), Dry Sump and associated parts (~$3800), hoses fittings ($500), no radiator ($300), no aluminum coolant tubes (~$600), no need for 3 oil coolers and associated ducts/fans (~$1200) Total: $10K....... Now include the complete plug in race motor/ ECU, Key/immobilizer, Accessport, ($6800) Total $16,800 I could of built one super reliable/bulletproof 911 race motor. Not to mention all the labor of me R&D'ing things plus bigger turbo and injectors. You would not have to worry about coolant temps, AWIC temps, or Oil temps. It would just work!

I figure the weight saved would be at least 200 pounds after negating the weight of the bigger flat 6.


In your case the Porsche motor would have been the way to go considering your previous experience.

Its such a shame you have been so frustrated/disappointed with this build as it seems you are more than happy with the handling.

[C.Plavan]

In your case the Porsche motor would have been the way to go considering your previous experience.

Its such a shame you have been so frustrated/disappointed with this build as it seems you are more than happy with the handling.

You are spot on.

It's just becoming a money pit.


Other things that I don't like- Like others I'm struggling with front tire rub with 225/40 r17 tires. They rub on the inside (which I can live with, since I'm not doing u-turns) and on the outside fender- a little better design/ time to get it right by FFR would of been appreciated. I mean, we are all limited by this which could of been an easy fix on the drawing board.
Then my car, like the other early ones have an error in the steering rack- it's not on center. It would of been nice for them to make us early guys spacers or something to get it centered. I don't like racing with very limited tie rod engagement on one side.

[metalmaker12]

A H6 dry dump pan could have been developed if that was the only draw back. Even the non- turbo ej 's can spin 200whp with some work. If the 818 was lightened 1600-1700lbs and made 200-225whp it could be a track contender, turbo subies are powerful but need attention like most other turbos engines, and you not being a subie guy have found it to be problematic. But you haven't blown it to pieces yet, so your doing good so far. You would have spent much less Na Ej and would have had succes. I use 205 or 215 in the front max, no rub.

[C.Plavan]

A H6 dry dump pan could have been developed if that was the only draw back. Even the non- turbo ej 's can spin 200whp with some work. If the 818 was lightened 1600-1700lbs and made 200-225whp it could be a track contender, turbo subies are powerful but need attention like most other turbos engines, and you not being a subie guy have found it to be problematic. But you haven't blown it to pieces yet, so your doing good so far. You would have spent much less Na Ej and would have had succes. I use 205 or 215 in the front max, no rub.

Hoosier or other fast race tires does not make those sizes..... Thats what I'm talking about. I have not looked at slicks, but that would throw me in higher class.

[Mechie3]

Then my car, like the other early ones have an error in the steering rack- it's not on center. It would of been nice for them to make us early guys spacers or something to get it centered. I don't like racing with very limited tie rod engagement on one side.

When is your next track event? I can try and get one done by then. Overhauling the suspension on my F500 for this weekend so I can do a shakedown before nationals so I may or may not be able to get it to you before the next event.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

When is your next track event? I can try and get one done by then. Overhauling the suspension on my F500 for this weekend so I can do a shakedown before nationals so I may or may not be able to get it to you before the next event.

Hey Craig and Chad.
I have the rack extender for my second car. I can send it to chad if you eventually make me a new one.
In my installation I added a roll pin to lock the adapter to the swivel joint.
Bob
43951

[C.Plavan]

I'm in no hurry Bob. I appreciate that though. I can wait for Mechie to churn one out. I'm not sure when my next test day will be, but I figure in the next month. I have survived so far, However I will not be racing Willow Springs or California Speedway until I install the spacer.

[C.Plavan]

It's official:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?18544-818R-Chassis-44-quot-The-Real-818R-Test-Mule-quot

[Frank818]

:(

(Gee, the msg is too short with just a smile, sorry I had to write something along with it)

[C.Plavan]

Installed the Spintric. I wont be able to test it until the 21st.

http://i.imgur.com/WIhWz93l.jpg

[Sgt.Gator]

We can't wait that long! Fire that puppy up in your driveway and see what happens!

[C.Plavan]

We can't wait that long! Fire that puppy up in your driveway and see what happens!

I never did a base test like you. Not sure what/if it will really prove anything.

I'm going to bypass my rear oil cooler too because I'm feeling confident.... I still will have my two front mounted coolers working.

[Sgt.Gator]

If you run it for a 30- minutes and open the tank with no foam that would be very encouraging.

[C.Plavan]

If you run it for a 30- minutes and open the tank with no foam that would be very encouraging.

I might be able to do that tomorrow.

I also bought a bigger overflow tank and mounted it. Nice and high.
http://i.imgur.com/dXog7YMl.jpg

[Frank818]

Installed the Spintric.

You've installed Spoutnik? Your car is really made with a lot of aerospace material. :) You can fly with it, now! For 20-30mins...

[Flamshackle]

Cant wait to hear the good news

[C.Plavan]

I had some time this weekend to install these Hump Vents. Mechie made them from me, and you can buy them from him now. I like the look of them alot. Get that air out of the top :)

http://i.imgur.com/Q4esw4Vl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gnygtWCl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XH93MaHl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/97AqDBpl.jpg

[Hindsight]

They look really good in black with the matching trunk cover vents. Gives the rear a more aggressive look.

[Frank818]

Definitely looks amazing! As expected...

[metros]

Love it! Goes together very well and definitely makes the rear more aggressive looking.

[Flamshackle]

I had some time this weekend to install these Hump Vents. Mechie made them from me, and you can buy them from him now. I like the look of them alot. Get that air out of the top :)

http://i.imgur.com/Q4esw4Vl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/gnygtWCl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XH93MaHl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/97AqDBpl.jpg

Those really suit the car. looks so good!

[C.Plavan]

I just got a new map to try tomorrow. Actually, the same HP/Tq, he just changed some timing variables since I'm not running straight pump gas.

"Hi Chad,
I have attached a map for you. I looked it over and it you had coolant temps persistently over 212*F the map would have been pulling about 2* of timing pro-actively. Add in intake air temps of 120*F and above and there would have been an additional 1.4* to 2.8* pulled. That would certainly translate to power loss as the car heated up. The proactive coolant temp compensations to that degree are needed on pump gas and but given the relatively understressed nature of your setup and that you are running race gas, I have reduced the amount of authority coolant temp has on timing compensations. It will still pull timing above 230*F, but you probably shouldn't be running the car that hot anyways. Same story with the intake temp compensation. The car loosing a bit of power as you are on track with the air-water ic is inevitable, as your current heat exchanger is not able to fully shed all the heat being inputted in to the water (causing the manifold air temps to creep up during the session) but that effect should be fairly minimal now."

Now as long as the oil temps stay down, we will finally be in business.

[Tamra]

Nice! That sounds like good news. What are the peak pre and post IC temps you are seeing while racing out of curiosity?

[C.Plavan]

Nice! That sounds like good news. What are the peak pre and post IC temps you are seeing while racing out of curiosity?

Pre- depends... Its 100+ out here in California. Post when it is 100+ ambient is 132- 143 degrees. That is floored going down a long straight.

[Tamra]

Thanks Chad.

Good luck this weekend!

[bbjones121]

I hope goes well Chad and you have fun!

[Mulry]

Good luck Chad. I'm hopeful that this will solve the issue you were having and it's unrelated to the oil temp after all that. Not just because that would make my build less spendy :)

I find it interesting that your tuner thinks the AWIC isn't fully getting the job done. If that's true for sprint races, then it's going to be even more of a problem for endurance. I wonder how Audi and Porsche and Toyota solve this problem on their turbo endurance racers.

[Mitch Wright]

in the case of the Porsche 919 LMP car is uses a air to air intercooler. I know that was true of the R18 Audi as well, not sure about the most current LMP car but would be surprised if it wasn't air to air.

Good luck Chad

[Hindsight]

A2W is definitely capable of transferring all the heat out of the water and keeping the intake air temps 5-10 degrees above ambient. You just have to ensure both heat exchangers are properly sized and that the pump moving enough water through the system. So if your post temps on the straights are getting over 110 on a full throttle run down a straight on a 100 ambient day, something is not sized properly. Dual water temp gauges would help you determine whether it is the front or rear heat exchanger and could also help you determine if the pump is moving enough water. In other words, if you are relying on the "capacity" of the system to provide a buffer, then the system is not sized correctly for track use.

All that said though, yeah, I haven't seen an A2W setup on a road racing or endurance car. Generally more seen for street and drag racing.

Good luck Chad and keep us posted.

[C.Plavan]

A2W is definitely capable of transferring all the heat out of the water and keeping the intake air temps 5-10 degrees above ambient. You just have to ensure both heat exchangers are properly sized and that the pump moving enough water through the system. So if your post temps on the straights are getting over 110 on a full throttle run down a straight on a 100 ambient day, something is not sized properly. Dual water temp gauges would help you determine whether it is the front or rear heat exchanger and could also help you determine if the pump is moving enough water. In other words, if you are relying on the "capacity" of the system to provide a buffer, then the system is not sized correctly for track use.

All that said though, yeah, I haven't seen an A2W setup on a road racing or endurance car. Generally more seen for street and drag racing.

Good luck Chad and keep us posted.

I bought Wayne's kit. So this is before any real racing. I would love to design a a2a kit utilizing Kirk818's side scoops. I really think I will be dumping the AWIC setup for a lighter a2a kit when and if I get this thing running right. Wayne's kit is perfect for the street 818's/ marginal for racing with out mods. Remember I only have 280 RWHP, but I'm in full boost 80% each lap.
I just talked with some Porsche Factory guys. A2A is way better for endurance racing.

[RM1SepEx]

Chad, my AAIC will work fine with his scoops. Craig can lead you to all the parts and he has my sketches to make fancy IC brackets. I'll have more ducting worked out soon but it is easy to mount a good sized IC to get air from the side. I have a fan that will run whenever the key is on and a small rocker switch to turn it off if I want too. When you clock the turbo about 135 degrees and dump the TGVs it all fits nicely.

[Sgt.Gator]

it's getting near lunch, almost time for a Track Day Update!

[C.Plavan]

I only paid for a half day.... As I'm sure you know why. It starts at 1pm.

Car is all set up and waiting. I'm looking forward to seeing if the vents keep things cool also.

http://i.imgur.com/cQMVEwZ.jpg (http://imgur.com/cQMVEwZ)

[C.Plavan]

1st session- got too hot. Came in and plugged the oil tank and vent lines
2nd session- got too hot again. Waiting for oil to cool off then I'm changing it.

Looked in the oil tank- no foam at all. Spintric is working on that end. If the new oil does the same thing, I'll have to install the 10cm oil pump.

Threw down a personal best on the second lap out with the same damn crappy tires I have been using since Feb. 1:53 CW #13 Buttonwillow.

[Hindsight]

Sorry to hear it's still getting hot, but congrats on the lap times!

What do you mean you plugged the oil tank and vent lines?

Do you have panels in place to ensure all air that enters through the front vents is forced through the radiator and AWIC heat exchanger, and that it can't escape elsewhere?

[C.Plavan]

Sorry to hear it's still getting hot, but congrats on the lap times!

What do you mean you plugged the oil tank and vent lines?

Do you have panels in place to ensure all air that enters through the front vents is forced through the radiator and AWIC heat exchanger, and that it can't escape elsewhere?

Still got hot after a couple laps with the new oil. I just think my motor is screwed somehow.

There is a detail of the dry sump in the R section. Look at the last couple pages.

Yes, everything (Awic/oil coolers/ radiator) is paneled in an blocked so air has to go through.

[Frank818]

Got hot, but... no foam! That's a step fwd, no?

[Aero STI]

Bummer. There is still hope for an underdrive crank pulley, but it does seem like something is wrong with your motor.

[Zach34]

Not sure I would rule out the tune, either. Did it seem at all improved from before? If I'm understanding this foaming oil phenomenon correctly, it seems it should cause heat to build extremely quickly and also cause oil pressure to drop, but it takes about 15 minutes of track time for it to do that, right?

[Sgt.Gator]

Dang. I thought for sure the Spintric would solve the problem. Although if there is no longer any foam than it's doing it's job.
I know you are really bummed out.
Can I ask how hot is hot?

I guess your left with the 10cm pump and underdrive crank pulley for "easy" mods. If you lived close I'd come over and help!

[Flamshackle]

wow. how unbelievably frustrating... sorry to hear its still not all coming together.

congrats on the fast lap!

[C.Plavan]

As like before, The car is crazy fun for the first 2-3 laps. The performance is there, I have a huge grin, and I can throw down super fast lap times while not even really trying. Then..... I can feel the performance start going away as everything is getting hotter. I can feel the same drag on the motor.

I may try Bob's idea of those spiral metal spring inserts into the dry sump pan lines (In case lines are collapsing with the heat), along with the under drive pulley and 10cm oil pump.

I tried both oil temp sender locations. The original sender location I had was only ~5 degree's hotter than the dry sump tank sender location. Oil got to over 260 at one point. But what you need to realize, I can still feel the performance suffer before that. I was babying it once it hit 250, but again the performance sucked. It's like everything gets hot and the motor turns into a 39hp VW Beetle motor.

The first session of the day is always the longest session I can run. Everything is cool from the start. After that, I can get about 3 laps in subsequent sessions before the same crap happens.

I know its all heat related, but the AWIC got to 144 at some points. It was 97 degree's outside, intake temp was right around 100. So I need to sell the AWIC to a street car 818 person which it would work perfectly for.

Radiator temps got up to 220-222 when things were really hot, 208-210 when things were somewhat normal.

I'm about ready to just pull the motor and start over.

[Pearldrummer7]

As like before, The car is crazy fun for the first 2-3 laps. The performance is there, I have a huge grin, and I can throw down super fast lap times while not even really trying. Then..... I can feel the performance start going away as everything is getting hotter. I can feel the same drag on the motor.

I may try Bob's idea of those spiral metal spring inserts into the dry sump pan lines (In case lines are collapsing with the heat), along with the under drive pulley and 10cm oil pump.

I tried both oil temp sender locations. The original sender location I had was only ~5 degree's hotter than the dry sump tank sender location. Oil got to over 260 at one point. But what you need to realize, I can still feel the performance suffer before that. I was babying it once it hit 250, but again the performance sucked. It's like everything gets hot and the motor turns into a 39hp VW Beetle motor.

The first session of the day is always the longest session I can run. Everything is cool from the start. After that, I can get about 3 laps in subsequent sessions before the same crap happens.

I know its all heat related, but the AWIC got to 144 at some points. It was 97 degree's outside, intake temp was right around 100. So I need to sell the AWIC to a street car 818 person which it would work perfectly for.

Radiator temps got up to 220-222 when things were really hot, 208-210 when things were somewhat normal.

I'm about ready to just pull the motor and start over.

What would you replace the AWIC with? A bigger one?

[AZPete]

Chad, you said, "I just think my motor is screwed somehow."
It's from AJW, right? What does Andrew say?

[C.Plavan]

What would you replace the AWIC with? A bigger one?

Knowing what I know now for endurance racing and turbos, A2A is king. You do not see AWIC in endurance race cars. I'm not saying it won't work in other people's cars, it could be that my car's motor is a mess :). I'm running 280hp to the wheels and it is getting hot. (along with everything else to be fair.)

I may just need a better intercooler location/ducting that what FFR provides stock. Plus, the intercooler needs to be much bigger for racing (you are in boost almost constantly). I guess Mechie has worked on a side intercooler design. Utilizing Kirk818's side scoops I have and aluminum block off's might be the ticket. Then again, I need a proper running car first.

Yes, motor is from AJW. I have given up on them.

[Pearldrummer7]

Knowing what I know now for endurance racing and turbos, A2A is king. You do not see AWIC in endurance race cars. I'm not saying it won't work in other people's cars, it could be that my car's motor is a mess :). I'm running 280hp to the wheels and it is getting hot. (along with everything else to be fair.)

I may just need a better intercooler location/ducting that what FFR provides stock. Plus, the intercooler needs to be much bigger for racing (you are in boost almost constantly). I guess Mechie has worked on a side intercooler design. Utilizing Kirk818's side scoops I have and aluminum block off's might be the ticket. Then again, I need a proper running car first.

Yes, motor is from AJW. I have given up on them.

Huh, funny you say that. If you asked around the forums, I believe the general consensus is that an AWIC is a "must have" for our cars.

If you had a quick spooling turbo, couldn't you try a front mount? I know that a huge run, but some muscle cars ran rear turbos on front engine cars. Maybe something like that is the ticket. *flamesuit on*

[Pearldrummer7]

Also, just for fun. What do you think of this?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10649-RM1Sepex-Build-Thread&p=166294&viewfull=1#post166294

Especially with a larger side duct (like yours) and maybe a mounted fan to move some air while idling?

[C.Plavan]

Also, just for fun. What do you think of this?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10649-RM1Sepex-Build-Thread&p=166294&viewfull=1#post166294

Especially with a larger side duct (like yours) and maybe a mounted fan to move some air while idling?

Thats what Dan was taking about a few posts back.

As for AWIC being a must have. I think they mean the factory a2a ducting/location just will not work well.

[C.Plavan]

If you guys want to see what it's like to drive a 818R for a couple good laps....... watch....lol

Personal best of 1:53 BW config CW#13. I surprised myself as I was not really trying, and I'm on Hoosier R7's with 25+ heatcycles....lol. I was too busy looking a gauges. This car is just teasing me!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcs1FYnAx5Y

[Mitch Wright]

Chad, it looks like the car handles and transitions pretty well for the limited amount of time you have had to work on the chassis set-up. Watching your steering inputs the car looks to go where you point it.

[Evan78]

This is probably a long shot, but perhaps you should try a conventional tune, if available. I forget what turbo you're running and the specifics of reducing power to stay within class limits, but however trivial that might seem, it is not the common approach to tuning. Was it ever tuned for max power while staying within the turbo's efficiency range?

[RM1SepEx]

Also, just for fun. What do you think of this?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10649-RM1Sepex-Build-Thread&p=166294&viewfull=1#post166294

Especially with a larger side duct (like yours) and maybe a mounted fan to move some air while idling?

If you rotate the turbo 135 and do a TGV delete the AAIC tubing gets very simple

44668 44669 44670 44671

44672 44673 44674
.
My fan runs if the key is on and a dash switch is on. I'll add ducting for the AAIC as well as ducting air over the opening on top of the IC to the cone intake so that the side scoop feeds both. Future plans are for an oil cooler for the other side.

[Canadian818]

I think a 911 (996+) turbo style ducting will work. Fully sealed from the scoop to the vent at the rear. That's my plan, with some water injection if needed.

[JeromeS13]

Radiator temps got up to 220-222 when things were really hot, 208-210 when things were somewhat normal.

This still seems high to me. I never liked to see my coolant get above 210, period. At this point, depending on what your tuner adjusted, the ECU pulls 2 degrees of timing at 212 F and nearly 4 degrees at 230.

Even beating on mine for 15 minutes in 100 degree ambient temps, my coolant never got above 198 degrees.

[C.Plavan]

Just noticed my heads are b25 versions. I thought 06 WRX's are supposed to be d25's?

Would that mess up my tune, or ecu things? I know I'm reaching but im just thinking of anything causing my crazy issues.

[C.Plavan]

If you rotate the turbo 135 and do a TGV delete the AAIC tubing gets very simple

44668 44669 44670 44671

44672 44673 44674
.
My fan runs if the key is on and a dash switch is on. I'll add ducting for the AAIC as well as ducting air over the opening on top of the IC to the cone intake so that the side scoop feeds both. Future plans are for an oil cooler for the other side.

I really like that Dan. If I ever get to that point, I will be doing something similar. I think I would go off the driver side vent since I'm racing. I need to keep those pipes away from the turbo heat. I just need to get the car running right first.

[Pearldrummer7]

Not to doubt your tuner, but have you ever considered getting a second tune from another tuner?

[C.Plavan]

Not to doubt your tuner, but have you ever considered getting a second tune from another tuner?

He tuned Ken Block's 4wd Mustang. So I would have a hard time second guessing him. I'll see if he can send me a basic 400hp tune for a Dom 1.5 turbo. At this point, I don't care if it blows up.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I can feel the same drag on the motor.

I may try Bob's idea of those spiral metal spring inserts into the dry sump pan lines (In case lines are collapsing with the heat), along with the under drive pulley and 10cm oil pump.

I know its all heat related, .

Chad,
I feel you are on the right track now.

I think the root cause is you oil level is getting into your crank. Caused by collapsed scavenge lines.

This would cause your power loss feeling.

After that, the crank s would super heat and aerate the oil.

Bob

[DodgyTim]

Chad,
I feel you are on the right track now.

I think the root cause is you oil level is getting into your crank.

This would cause your power loss feeling.
This would super heat and aerate the oil.

Bob

If the oil is getting to the crank I'd suggest the culprit is the dry sump belt drive
the scavenge pump is running really fast compared to other dry sump systems, which will draw a lot more power
the belt drive is a relatively small and narrow serpentine belt, nearly every other dry sump belt seems to be toothed

Cheers

[Frank818]

I think I mentioned that a while back, but has this car and engine been driven before with a normal oil pan and no dry sump?

[bbjones121]

Any thoughts on skipping the dry sump? I mean, going back to stock with killer b pickup and larger pan?

[C.Plavan]

Any thoughts on skipping the dry sump? I mean, going back to stock with killer b pickup and larger pan?

Not at this point. Killer B Pan sticks out well below the frame. Running one at the lowered 818R height while racing can be disasterous. Plus, I sold that whole setup. I'm about ready to just pull the motor and see what AJW gave me inside.

[Tamra]

Not at this point. Killer B Pan sticks out well below the frame. Running one at the lowered 818R height while racing can be disasterous. Plus, I sold that whole setup. I'm about ready to just pull the motor and see what AJW gave me inside.

I think that's a good idea. Or even just pick up a used OEM short block off Craigslist and throw it in with your current tune, and see how it goes.

[D Clary]

I think in your use a front mounted intercooler would work, the only thing you would get is turbo lag because of the long run of pipe. you are always at boost so the the system is always pressurized.

[bbjones121]

Not at this point. Killer B Pan sticks out well below the frame. Running one at the lowered 818R height while racing can be disasterous. Plus, I sold that whole setup. I'm about ready to just pull the motor and see what AJW gave me inside.

That makes sense. It is exciting how fast you ran with issues! I can't wait to hear your times when you are pedal to the medal on good tires, good engine, and clear mind about the engine heat!

[Mulry]

Chad, which radiator are you using? Here's why I'm looking in that direction.

The stock 4AGE motor in the first-gen MR2 was reportedly "bombproof," which was one reason we started with that car for our Lemons-racing endeavors. It turns out that it's anything but bombproof when you flog the crap out of it for 14+ hours in a weekend, and lots of us suffered BHG failures as a result of running the coolant too hot. There were lots of proposed solutions bandied about, but the one that worked for me, and which was a lot cheaper than electric water pumps & other stuff, was to find a way to cram a big, cheap Ford/Mopar universal radiator from Sppedway Motors in the front of the car. It was a ton bigger than stock & required some chassis modification, but we didn't BHG again for years after that change. I wonder if something as simple as a bigger capacity radiator would solve the problem.

[C.Plavan]

Chad,
I feel you are on the right track now.

I think the root cause is you oil level is getting into your crank. Caused by collapsed scavenge lines.

This would cause your power loss feeling.

After that, the crank s would super heat and aerate the oil.

Bob

Alright Bob, I was traveling for work yesterday and was "noodling" my oil temp problems. I have tried everything else, with marginal increases in run time. I'm hoping you are right about the suction lines collapsing, it's really all that's left besides pulling the motor. I gave it a good 4 hour cause/effect and came up with the same conclusion you have.

1. Ever since I have started racing this car, I have always felt a power loss after a few laps.

2. The power loss comes after the car gets warmed up.

3. The only race I finished was in Feb when temps were in the high 40 degrees ambient, yet I still remember a power loss

4. Whenever I felt the drag on the motor, I would slow down. I always thought it was my bearings going. I cut all my oil filters open and have never found any bearing material. For the amount of times I have driven this car, if the culprit was the bearings, if would of blown up already with what I'm doing.

5. The oil aeration is totally gone with the Spintric now, I can look in the oil tank now right after running and their is not any foam as there was before. Pretty amazing device, but it did not stop the heat or power loss.

6. The bottom of the motor on a 818R is sealed off with an aluminum plate. No real airflow like on a wrx street car. This is where I think the issue lies. The dry sump suction lines are down in the header heat. I think after a few laps in full race mode, the heat starts making the -12 Braided lines pliable. This is where they start collapsing and the block starts filling with oil like you stated. That is exactly what I am feeling for power loss, or drag on the motor. In fact, I tested the theory on Friday. When it gets bad on the track, I pushed the clutch in, the motor stalled. Oil is in the motor.

7. So the block fills with oil, where does it go? It goes through my vent lines back to the oil tank all super heated bypassing the oil coolers. How do I know this? When I plugged the drysump vent line plugs like Gator for vacuum to see if that would help, I cut a zip tie holding on the 3/4" vent hose in case there was positive pressure. I went out for two laps, oil pressure was dropping, I nursed it back in to check and there was oil seeping/dripping out of the 3/4" drip line. I had a nice puddle of oil under the car because it was leaking on my rear diffuser then dropping to the ground.

8. My first few laps of any test were always the fastest. This is when everything was nice and cold from not running before. This is were I could feel the cars real potential, then it would start deteriorating with each passing lap.

So you may have been right all along. If this cures it, I'm sending you a Keg of beer. I ordered those inner hose supports and will make new suction lines with them installed. I'm also going to reroute one of those lines even farther from the header.

I'll pray to Baby Jesus and hopefully I will be done messing with this car. Then I can focus on the setup.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

7. So the block fills with oil, where does it go?

If this cures it, I'm sending you a Keg of beer. .

Hi Chad,
As soon as the engine stalls, the vacuum goes away and the hose open back up.
when you restarted it probably pumped it out quickly.

EDIT: Do your feed line also. It has vacuum from the OEM pump. If it collapses, you only have seconds.

No keg necessary, I'm running your 350-600 spring set up and loving it.
Bob

[matteo92065]

If this were The Facebook, I'm tapping the "Like" button for the post above.

[Pearldrummer7]

Not to thread jack...what is this 350-600 spring setup? I thought we had 350/500 from the factory?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Not to thread jack...what is this 350-600 spring setup? I thought we had 350/500 from the factory?

Chad and I have bought different springs.
My 818S came with 275 rear and 350 front springs.
Chad is running 600 rear and 375 fronts.
I am running 600 rear and 350 fronts
Bob

[Mulry]

EDIT: Do your feed line also. It has vacuum from the OEM pump. If it collapses, you only have seconds.

Bob, do you have a link/source for those spring inserts? I'd like to put them on my to-do/to-buy list as I'm assembling our dry sump setup. Sorry for the minor threadjack, Chad.

[Pearldrummer7]

Chad and I have bought different springs.
My 818S came with 275 rear and 350 front springs.
Chad is running 600 rear and 375 fronts.
I am running 600 rear and 350 fronts
Bob

Thanks, Bob. I intend to dabble with stuff like that eventually. Notes taken!


Chad, I really hope this solves the issues you've been having. It would be great to see you drive and tweak this thing without having to worry about temps!

[C.Plavan]

Bob, do you have a link/source for those spring inserts? I'd like to put them on my to-do/to-buy list as I'm assembling our dry sump setup. Sorry for the minor threadjack, Chad.

Summit racing has them. Search inner hose support.

[Mulry]

thx Chad.

[Hindsight]

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you on this one

[Sgt.Gator]

Pegasus has the Aeroquip -12AN in stock now.

Summit has the Earl's in stock, it's cheap, but clearly not the right stuff compared to Aeroquip, Russell, or Fragola. Summit won't ship the Aeroquip or Fragola until Sept. They can ship the Russell by Friday.

I was wondering how the heck you get these inside the hose. Then I saw this in the Fragola description "To install them, use a solid rod smaller than the inside diameter of the hose and then slice the end of the rod and wind the inner support spring into the hose."

I hope it installs easily and is the solution you need!

[C.Plavan]

I bought the Earl's to check it out since it was cheap. If you go to the Earls website, it says it for vacuum support also. It may do the trick. I'll know when I get it. Otherwise, I'll get the other stuff.

I'm in no hurry- I have a race in the Porsche in less than two weeks. Oktoberfest! :)

[DMC7492]

Hi Chad, you mentioned the high water temps and the engine bay heat softening the vacuum lines. Installing the coils to support the hose is really band aiding the root cause.
The heat is still the cause.
Can you run with the lower engine shield off for a test run?
Can you as mentioned above test a larger radiator?
I'm thinking the air flow through the heat exchanger and then through the radiator is not dropping the outlet temp enough.
Remember the factory WRX cooling system only has three feet of radiator hose and the 818 has what about twenty five feet of tubes?
Or the flow rate through the cooling system has slowed due to the length of tubing.

[C.Plavan]

Hi Chad, you mentioned the high water temps and the engine bay heat softening the vacuum lines. Installing the coils to support the hose is really band aiding the root cause.
The heat is still the cause.
Can you run with the lower engine shield off for a test run?
Can you as mentioned above test a larger radiator?
I'm thinking the air flow through the heat exchanger and then through the radiator is not dropping the outlet temp enough.
Remember the factory WRX cooling system only has three feet of radiator hose and the 818 has what about twenty five feet of tubes?
Or the flow rate through the cooling system has slowed due to the length of tubing.

I'm hoping once the oil situation is solved, the other things will magically fix themselves. I believe the primary problem is the oil, if it not, I'll be ditching the undertray or adding NACA ducts to it.

[bbjones121]

When is the next race?

[bbjones121]

Do you think you could do a string test with some of your vents on your car and video where the strings go when you are driving

[C.Plavan]

Do you think you could do a string test with some of your vents on your car and video where the strings go when you are driving

Already did that. Its a few pages back. In a nutshell, they work like they should (Except the rear top trunk vent was sucking air in).


I'm in no hurry with the 818 for the next track day. I'm racing this beast on Sept 5th, 6th. There are a few things I need to prep before.
http://i.imgur.com/qdYbx2Il.jpg

[Pearldrummer7]

That's awesome. Specs on the Porsche? What class do you race?

[Frank818]

Already did that. Its a few pages back.

I don't see you testing the top side vents of the humps lid.
At least not on page 34 where you test many other vents.
Have you tested them?

[bbjones121]

I don't see you testing the top side vents of the humps lid.
At least not on page 34 where you test many other vents.
Have you tested them?

Those are what I am interested in

[longislandwrx]

There's really nothing left of those vents on the R... the downtube goes right through them.

45026

[Mechie3]

He means these vents:

http://zerodecibelmotorsports.com/media/2015/08/Painted-Engine-Vent-1.jpeg

[Pearldrummer7]

Those vents pass the "looks awesome" test, at least.

[Frank818]

I personally meant those that longisland-NY-Rangers showed up. I didn't know the downtubes were at a different angle than on the S, never realized that before. But there is still an opening, not sure of its efficacy though.

[Zach34]

Chad, got a quick question for you taking a tangent from current topics: How is the elbow room on the left of the seat? I have almost the same seat as you, and I noticed after I got my steering rack/column bolted in last week that the lack of elbow room between the frame and seat on the left side might be problematic. I haven't gotten a steering wheel yet - just using the OEM wheel for test-fit, which is much larger and deeper-dish than the aftermarket steering wheel I will get. An aftermarket wheel should help.

Is it a problem on the racetrack? Do you find yourself wishing you had maybe modified the cage there?

[C.Plavan]

Chad, got a quick question for you taking a tangent from current topics: How is the elbow room on the left of the seat? I have almost the same seat as you, and I noticed after I got my steering rack/column bolted in last week that the lack of elbow room between the frame and seat on the left side might be problematic. I haven't gotten a steering wheel yet - just using the OEM wheel for test-fit, which is much larger and deeper-dish than the aftermarket steering wheel I will get. An aftermarket wheel should help.

Is it a problem on the racetrack? Do you find yourself wishing you had maybe modified the cage there?

It's not bad. I don't notice it on the track. The only time I notice it is when I'm putting my belts on before going out on the track. I'm not using a door panel on the drivers side, but I have a real metal intrusion panel (not the thin flimsy FFR one) on the outside of the cage. It's as tall as the last horizontal top cage bar, so I have a little room between the top of the door, and that bar for my elbow when strapping in. I think I nudged my seat to the center just a bit. It's easy to do with the racing seat brackets.

[Zach34]

Thanks. I'm at the point where I need to make sure I don't want to make any more drastic changes to the frame. I'm not sure I could modify the cage without causing tech issues, anyway.

[philly15]

purely out of curiosity, are you using a td04 on your car?

[Hindsight]

Hey Chad, any tips on checking oil levels? I figured you'd be the best person to ask since you have so much external capacity. I don't have a dry sump and tank like you, but I do have -10 lines going to a big external oil cooler. The lines to the cooler go up, and then down to the cooler and the cooler sits higher than the oil pan. I am wondering how much oil is flowing back into the pan when the engine is off, affecting the readings.

Also, how long does it take for you to see oil pressure after you start? I don't see pressure on mine for ~3 seconds.

[C.Plavan]

Hey Chad, any tips on checking oil levels? I figured you'd be the best person to ask since you have so much external capacity. I don't have a dry sump and tank like you, but I do have -10 lines going to a big external oil cooler. The lines to the cooler go up, and then down to the cooler and the cooler sits higher than the oil pan. I am wondering how much oil is flowing back into the pan when the engine is off, affecting the readings.

Also, how long does it take for you to see oil pressure after you start? I don't see pressure on mine for ~3 seconds.

Mine is pretty much instantaneous with the dry sump set up. With dry sumps, you check the oil level when running in most cases. In your case, I would run the oil a lot higher depending on your oil cooler size (extra quart or so- depending on the size of cooler). Everything will settle in the pan after sitting (depending on your oil line run).

Where is your pressure gauge sender located? (Near Alt?) 3 seconds sounds like a lot. What brand of gauge?

[Hindsight]

Thanks. My gauge sender is located in the stock spot, right next to the alternator. It's a prosport electronic. I have a mechanical gauge on order now and am going to swap out the electric sender for the mechanical one to rule that out. If there is still a delay, I will remove the Mocal sandwich plate and run the oil filter right on the block to see if that doesn't make it faster. If that makes it faster I will have to try to figure something out to keep oil from draining back from the cooler. The cooler is higher than the oil pan, but in order for it to drain, wouldn't air have to get in? It can't pull air in from the pump, and on the other side it goes to the galleys that feed the journals and heads so I'm not really sure where the air would come from. At any rate, if drain back is the issue, I guess I need a one-way check valve in the line sending oil TO the cooler from the block?

[Scargo]

You should have an anti-drain back valve in the oil filter. These have been known to fail or leak. The oil pump does not provide a seal, nor does it have a check valve.
Having said that, if the oil cooler is higher than the oil level then it wants to empty and you must have a seal on one end or it will empty itself from gravity or from siphoning. If you have a good seal at the filter then a loss of suction could occur if you have "enough" air in the oil lines or oil cooler. This might occur if you have the cooler mounted in such a position where air could be trapped.
A small leak, anywhere in the circuit, could allow the suction to fail and the oil to drain out (of at least one of the cooler hoses). I think you would eventually see that leak as oil gets out under pressure. Certainly variations in heating and cooling and pressure or no pressure can affect whether there is a seal, though I've seen this mostly occur in water cooling systems.

[Mulry]

FWIW, Peterson recommends not putting a check valve in the system due to the potential for causing cavitation in the oil pump:

http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/tech_faq.html

Hindsight, I'm not sure of your setup. Are you running an Element-type dry sump that is scavenge pump only with the factory oil pump, or are you running a dry sump pump with pressure section? If it's the latter, you can just remove the drive belt and run the dry sump pump with your electric drill for 10 seconds to pressurize the system prior to firing the engine. If it's the Element system, then you can't run the oil pump separate from the crankshaft, so you might want to think about using a small 1qt Accusump just to pressurize the oil system prior to start.

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the reply guys. I don't want to hijack Chad's thread though.

After starting the car and letting it full warm up (which should have completely filled the lines to the oil cooler), I get oil pressure much faster now. ~3 seconds or so from start. So I think I'm ok. Thanks again for the replies.

[C.Plavan]

Long time no update. I raced the 911 and had a blast. It's nice to have a fully functional race car where you do not have to watch gauges like a hawk. The 911 was only 2 seconds slower than the 818 on the same race track configuration :/. I ended up getting 1st in class in all races with 2 overalls (out of three).

I installed these spiral metal springs into new -12AN scavenge oil lines. They will keep the lines from collapsing under vacuum when they get hot, or keep them from kinking in bends. I can step on them and they don't collapse, now I hope that this was the problem.
http://i.imgur.com/8jEwIv3l.jpg (http://imgur.com/8jEwIv3)

I rerouted one scavenge line farther from the header, and will make another heatshield to be safe. I'm going to tighten the oil pump belt a little more, then it is time for another test.

[bbjones121]

Best of luck.

[Flamshackle]

hoping for the best mate.

[C.Plavan]

As an added bonus- Look who will be out at the track the same weekend with us :) I just hope everything works right because it will be a great way to compare cars. Maybe I will sneak out in their practice session for fun. I really need a flat rear wing.

http://i.imgur.com/4SXXAFRl.png

[bbjones121]

As an added bonus- Look who will be out at the track the same weekend with us :) I just hope everything works right because it will be a great way to compare cars. Maybe I will sneak out in their practice session for fun. I really need a flat rear wing.

http://i.imgur.com/4SXXAFRl.png

Sweet! I can't wait to hear how it goes!

[Mulry]

Wow that car is low in front. Wouldn't need more than one reminder to stay off the kerbs.

[JeromeS13]

Good luck! Those things are crazy fast (with a skilled driver).

[Scargo]

That will be fun! The Lotus cockpit cover is what I'd like to emulate. That and a flat wing.
That Lotus must have its suspension pretty compressed in that shot.
Was really disappointed to hear that John George was not able to drive the FFR 818R at Palmer this past weekend. The Electromotive ECU was acting up and I don't think he got in any time on the track with it. BTW, that gray car has power steering!
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