Oil issues: Dry Sump, Accusump for road racing?

[C.Plavan]

Yeah- I'm not sure what to try now.

0-40 with Spintric, VR1 with Spintric, with/without plugging the vent. So many choices. I guess I could change the oil at the track to VR1 if needed to try it out. Capping is easy also.

What do you think I should try first?

1. Run it like I have it with Spintric installed with the 0w/40
2. Cap breathers off with the -12 caps and run it like it is
3. Change to VR1 and run it with Spintric
4. Change to VR1 and cap off breathers

My head is spinning. lol

[FFRSpec72]

This will be a long update, but it has a happy ending!


I guess I will see you this weekend at PIR and take a look at your setup, still not sure if I will run a dry sump or not.

[Sgt.Gator]

Yeah- I'm not sure what to try now.

0-40 with Spintric, VR1 with Spintric, with/without plugging the vent. So many choices. I guess I could change the oil at the track to VR1 if needed to try it out. Capping is easy also.

What do you think I should try first?

1. Run it like I have it with Spintric installed with the 0w/40
2. Cap breathers off with the -12 caps and run it like it is
3. Change to VR1 and run it with Spintric
4. Change to VR1 and cap off breathers

My head is spinning. lol

See my Edited post above.

My vote. Since it's not a race you can afford to experiment. I hope you do the Spintric + 40W first.

If that fails, cap the lines. You won't have to wait two hours for things to cool off to do that. You should probably leave the lines capped permanently, but you should verify with a vacuum boost gauge exactly what is happening on your engine.

If still not there, wait until the oil cools off enough so you don't burn the heck out of yourself and switch to the VR1.

[Sgt.Gator]

I guess I will see you this weekend at PIR and take a look at your setup, still not sure if I will run a dry sump or not.

I won't be at the test and tune, but I'll arrive around 2:00 PM Friday. They are opening the main gate entrance for us early to get across the track even though the T&T will be running. Will you have your 818R ??? I hope!

[FFRSpec72]

I won't be at the test and tune, but I'll arrive around 2:00 PM Friday. They are opening the main gate entrance for us early to get across the track even though the T&T will be running. Will you have your 818R ??? I hope!

I will get there early Saturday morning. I will just have the challenge car, not the 818 as it still has some minor (time consuming) work to do, but it should see end of season track time, most likely at Pacific with SCCA

[RetroRacing]

See you both there, we are the idiots with the 5 rx7's and the one rx3.....

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad if you are worried about the vacuum/positive aspect, you can leave your line hooked up but add this:

http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/Images/eng_breath_16inline.jpg

One Way Valve - Inline Pop Off

Breather assembly is installed in line from engine's crankcase. Valve seals engine from air entering engine, but opens in the event of crankcase pressure, allowing crankcase to vent.

08-1440 Inline Pop Off -12 AN

http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/engine_breath.html

[C.Plavan]

Chad if you are worried about the vacuum/positive aspect, you can leave your line hooked up but add this:

http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/Images/eng_breath_16inline.jpg

One Way Valve - Inline Pop Off

Breather assembly is installed in line from engine's crankcase. Valve seals engine from air entering engine, but opens in the event of crankcase pressure, allowing crankcase to vent.

08-1440 Inline Pop Off -12 AN

http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/engine_breath.html

I'm betting I could just use this for half the cost.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220195b/overview/

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm betting I could just use this for half the cost.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220195b/overview/

Yep, same thing. Good find. Although it's a flapper valve, may not work well for air. A big PCV valve (ball valves usually) would work too.

[C.Plavan]

Yep, same thing. Good find. Although it's a flapper valve, may not work well for air. A big PCV valve (ball valves usually) would work too.

Hmm not sure if it will work now. I called Peterson. Their's is a metal valve (kinda like an exhaust valve with a 2 lbs spring), The other is a PTFE flapper valve. Yeah- I'm not sure if the PTFE flapper could handle the vacuum or not.

[Sgt.Gator]

Hmm not sure if it will work now. I called Peterson. Their's is a metal valve (kinda like an exhaust valve with a 2 lbs spring), The other is a PTFE flapper valve. Yeah- I'm not sure if the PTFE flapper could handle the vacuum or not.

Best to stick with what Peterson has spec'd for this type system. I'm going to monitor with a $10 gauge on sale at Summit. If I ever see positive pressure I'll make changes.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/SUN-CP8213_ml.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sun-cp8213/overview/

[Zach34]

Yeah- I'm not sure what to try now.

0-40 with Spintric, VR1 with Spintric, with/without plugging the vent. So many choices. I guess I could change the oil at the track to VR1 if needed to try it out. Capping is easy also.

What do you think I should try first?

1. Run it like I have it with Spintric installed with the 0w/40
2. Cap breathers off with the -12 caps and run it like it is
3. Change to VR1 and run it with Spintric
4. Change to VR1 and cap off breathers

My head is spinning. lol


If I may inject from the peanut gallery - how about only one change at a time, and starting with the simplest (cap the breathers)? It would be good to know just how important the low-foaming oil is vs the plumbing, not to mention whether or not the Spintric works and/or makes up for other flaws.

[biknman]

Hmm not sure if it will work now. I called Peterson. Their's is a metal valve (kinda like an exhaust valve with a 2 lbs spring), The other is a PTFE flapper valve. Yeah- I'm not sure if the PTFE flapper could handle the vacuum or not.

This is what I've done it's in place of my oil filler neck on Driver Valve cover. I also use a "mini" DS oil tank for a AOS vented back to the the main oil tank no problems: http://www.timeattackforums.com/forums/engine-power/4722-dry-sump.html

[Sgt.Gator]

This is what I've done it's in place of my oil filler neck on Driver Valve cover. I also use a "mini" DS oil tank for a AOS vented back to the the main oil tank no problems: http://www.timeattackforums.com/forums/engine-power/4722-dry-sump.html

Dave,
Thanks for the link. Nice work on saving $$$ for your system. Especially on the hand made dry sump pan! I like yours better than the ARE:
http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/biknman/171729427150_1_zps6j3bcljz.jpg
I noticed an "expert" insists that you can't run a two stage scavenge on a Subaru and get enough vacuum because the crankcase positive pressure will overcome it and the heads "must" have their own scavenge stages. <Again!>. I guess Cosworth Engineering never tested that theory, nor did the expert.

Has your regulator ever vented positive pressure? Do you have a vacuum/boost gauge connected to it?


I saw this Subaru powered Radical for sale at Radical USA cars for sale webpage. If you look close in the top pic you'll see the dry sump lines coming off the pump. They are angled forward which is the way the Cosworth pump is setup.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nQT3QphR1_4bKOUFanzDv2WJMXp_q5Ux706534otp88=w1615-h611-no

Cosworth pump setups:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8gPA_CYKARqcqkKqUukbxOsEB1EISYS-lVCeS_9WSeo=w600-h532-no https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/vsuiosoaedyjjmv7Uue-okUsHlLtwyElcACqHUF06O4=w480-h319-no

Back to the Radical:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4iV_dO-2uDCEWdZX5FzD-LZxvhaJZf7cDAgrimJX6fM=w979-h650-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RcKmpcHfQZEVUfO26CbC8vs29nouatRoaQlb9KSpaug=w976-h657-no

Only $65K for a used Radical....

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/oXhbF6APcF_spr6RW8c7hPvu8nRYxvHD9oPHegRvl8Q=w987-h654-no

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad, Good Luck at the track! Let us know.
I'll be at Portland International racing Saturday and Sunday.
Should be a good test weekend for the dry sumps.

[FFRSpec72]

I won't be at the test and tune, but I'll arrive around 2:00 PM Friday. They are opening the main gate entrance for us early to get across the track even though the T&T will be running. Will you have your 818R ??? I hope!

So I see you finished on Sunday w/o issue, I went out on Saturday with a cam/distributor gear issue and had to pull the engine. Seems Sunday's race was a cluster with timing going down and the various offs and blown engines, etc. How did the dry sump work ?

[Sgt.Gator]

So I see you finished on Sunday w/o issue, I went out on Saturday with a cam/distributor gear issue and had to pull the engine. Seems Sunday's race was a cluster with timing going down and the various offs and blown engines, etc. How did the dry sump work ?

Yikes on your engine! Did you see that Kurt Wikstrom blew the engine in his Corvette as he took the checkered flag! It was a mess. He did a great job getting off the racing line so that no one else spun out in his oil slick.

Are you going to the Mission Raceway races? I'm debating it. I've missed so much of this year I may just make the long trip from Bend to British Columbia....

All weekend the Dry Sump was doing doing almost perfect. I say almost because it still gets a little hotter than I would like. In the big test, the 30 minute race on Sunday, it was 88 degrees and smokey as nasty heck from the forest fires. The oil temps worked up to 240-244 and plateaued there. That's an acceptable temp in racing conditions for sure.
I did notice that if I short shifted at 5500 to 6000 rpm I could drop the oil temps consistently 5 degrees in the course of one lap. That's really not much of a performance hit in speed because my dyno graph has such a wide HP/TQ curve. I can run in the 4000 to 6000 rpm range with no problem. The engine will probably last longer if I do that....I'll change the AIM lights on my dash to start indicating time to shift 500 rpm lower across the range.

However that indicates (I think) that the problem is RPM related, either in the engine or in how fast the DS pump is spinning. With my underdrive crank pulley and the standard DS pump pulley I'm still spinning the pump slightly faster than crank speed and possibly causing the extra heat above 6K RPM. For those of us with the 2.5 L engine this is ok. For the builders using the 2.0L and hoping to spin to 8K I think they will have to source a 6" pump pulley + the underdrive crank. Of course we won't know for sure until a 2.0L builder tries it.

On the vacuum/scavenge/pressure issue, the sealed engine worked great. I never saw more than 14" of vacuum, nor any less than 2" of vacuum. And the 2" only occurs at more than 6200+ RPM, which in practical terms is only for a second or two. There was never positive crankcase pressure. Typically I'd glance at it and see 8" of vacuum, which is perfect. See for more info on vacuum: http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/crankcase_vacuum_facts.html

My lap times were down significantly from my qualifying laps because I changed out my tires to some newer but smaller tires. They cost me at least 4 seconds and one near accident when my rear tires slid out!

The biggest concern now is my 6 speed tranny temp. My tranny cooler system slows down the heat, but by the last lap I was up to 270 degrees. My diff temp never goes over 195 degrees whether I run the pump or not, so I may remove the diff cooler and double up the tranny cooler. I also need to pressure test the tranny pump cooler and make sure it's working within spec.

Hope to see you at the The Ridge with your 818R!

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm betting I could just use this for half the cost.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220195b/overview/

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/SUM-220195B_ml.jpg

Chad the Summit catalog in print version says these are good for 1500 psi and 400 degrees. With a 2 psi cracking pressure, and methanol/chemical resistant. So they probably would work.

[killerbmotorsport]

Glad to hear you've got this sorted out and making events!

I've not seen a 2-stage pull this much vacuum, definitely not 8" under racing conditions, although you did mention being down to 2" above 6,200. 2" is what you see on a wet sump, in boost, and a wee bit more with a bigger turbocharger.

It would be interesting to see the vacuum numbers with a 40 weight oil typically used on track with an OEM block. Also, as the engine wears these numbers will deteriorate, but any well planned rebuild schedule will deal with that just fine.

I'm still holding with my vacuum regulator recommendation. Anything over ~10" you're not gaining anything except increased parasitic losses as there is definitely a sweet spot to shoot for. It may even help a bit with oil temps. Keep in mind when you're looking at sites offering advise like nutterracing, they are discussing circle/oval track v-8s. Theories are the same, but the practical figures will not always follow when comparing a V-8 to a H4.

[Rasmus]

Note to self: I should of just bought the complete ARE setup instead of this Element Tuning mixed bag of parts.

Reading about your troubles getting a system together makes me just want to get the full ARE setup and be done with it.

[Sgt.Gator]

Reading about your troubles getting a system together makes me just want to get the full ARE setup and be done with it.

Personally I'll go Cosworth next time. I like the pan better than the ARE pan. The only pieces missing are the tank, hoses, fittings, which no one makes as a kit for an 818 anyway.

[Rasmus]

Gator

Have you shopped the prices for both kits? I'm curious.

I hesitate to go Cosworth because every single product seems to come with a $1,000 surcharge just for the privilege. Is the pan the only reason you'd go Cosworth?

[Sgt.Gator]

Gator

Have you shopped the prices for both kits? I'm curious.
I hesitate to go Cosworth because every single product seems to come with a $1,000 surcharge just for the privilege. Is the pan the only reason you'd go Cosworth?

Yep, I got a quote for the ARE kit before I bought the Element kit. And I can buy the Cosworth kit at wholesale so it's a bit cheaper than the advertised retail prices.

Besides the pan I like the way the pump angles the lines to the front of the engine (see pics above). They also include a pressure regulator and the STI A/C bracket the pump mounts to. I had to buy the STI bracket because my LGT A/C bracket wouldn't work, and of course because it's an STI bracket it was way more expensive than it should have been.

The full ARE kit is a good deal.

No matter how you cut it the Cosworth is the most expensive. However I think it's the best engineered system.

When I build my 818R I'll probably go with either a 2.5 NA engine using either the Cosworth system, or swap the Element system I have now in the LGT to the 818R and go back to a standard wet sump in the LGT, or go EZ36 H6 and make a custom dry sump pan for it, in which case I'll piece together parts from ARE/Peterson/Avaid. A friend of mine is building a Honda truck engine powered Miata and has 3D scanned up a dry sump pan for it. After watching his progress I'm pretty confidant we could build a nice dry sump pan for the EZ30 -EZ36.

I also have the FRS/BRZ 4U-GSE /FA20 engine on my list. Plenty of aftermarket support including the ECUTEK ProECU tuning system.

One thing I can't recall seeing addressed yet is if the mandrel that sticks off the front (crank pulley) of the Cosworth and ARE kits will fit in the space between the engine and firewall in an 818. The Element Tuning idea of using the A/C drive ring on the crank pulley is the most compact way to setup the pump drive and Chad has shown it fits fine in his 818. Is there room for the drive mandrel?

I'm sure that with an EZ36 we'd have to use the A/C ring.

But if I were starting from scratch with no investment in a bunch of dry sump parts already I would go Cosworth. As long as the mandrel drive will fit in an 818!

[Mulry]

I'm in the middle of specifying and ordering the dry sump for our EJ20, but I'm keeping close track of the parts ordered and the cost. I'm getting some of it from ARE and the rest all over the web. I'll disclose all of it once we've gotten everything figured out, but by buying good used parts off eBay when possible and trying to find good prices, it looks like we will be able to have a full dry sump system -- 2 suction stages, 1 pressure stage -- with a Spintric for under $3k, not including the cost of lines and fittings yet. That part of the equation can really add up.

One part that I'm looking for but haven't been able to find yet is an adapter/block off for the oil filter so that we can use that as an input for the oil coming from the pressure side of the pump. There is one from Peterson that shows up on a NASIOC post, but I cant' find it on their website. I've got an inquiry out to them on that but if anybody knows of one, I'd love to hear it, as that's the last loose end for me until I have the oil pump mounted and can order the appropriate mandrels for the crank and the oil pump. Cheers.

[Wayne Presley]

One part that I'm looking for but haven't been able to find yet is an adapter/block off for the oil filter so that we can use that as an input for the oil coming from the pressure side of the pump. There is one from Peterson that shows up on a NASIOC post, but I cant' find it on their website. I've got an inquiry out to them on that but if anybody knows of one, I'd love to hear it, as that's the last loose end for me until I have the oil pump mounted and can order the appropriate mandrels for the crank and the oil pump. Cheers.


Mishimoto makes it. I can get them.

[Mulry]

Mishimoto makes it. I can get them.

Cool. Just emailed you.

[Wayne Presley]

Like this? You still use the stock filter and plug the outlet.


http://www.mishimoto.com/oil-sandwich-plate-m20-silver.html

[Mulry]

Not exactly. I have a sandwich plate already, but I'll run a remote oil filter so that we can put a big Wix 4 in the lubrication path. This is more like what I'm looking for:

45436

[Wayne Presley]

Ah, the Peterson is the only one I've seen.

[mikeb75]

could you use a Canton Racing 90* oil filter remote adapter?
https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/product/22-597/22-597----UNIV-90-DEGREE-ROTATING-REMOTE-FILTER-ADAPTER-20MM/

[Mulry]

could you use a Canton Racing 90* oil filter remote adapter?
https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/product/22-597/22-597----UNIV-90-DEGREE-ROTATING-REMOTE-FILTER-ADAPTER-20MM/

Thanks! That's serendipitous good timing -- I was just looking that up again. I used one of those on the other car to plumb in the oil cooler, remote filter, and Accusump. It looks like the threading on the EJ20 oil filter is M20x1.5, which is the same as the Honda world, and I thought that might expand the world of results, but not really. I think that Canton version (or the Moroso counterpart -- it looks identical except Moroso engraves their name on theirs) is probably the way to go and just plug the unused drain side.

[mikeb75]

It has inlet/outlets on both sides and comes with 1 set of 1/2 NPT plugs (2). I think you'll need a third for your planned install.

I liked it after getting Scargo's recommendation; seemed like a well made (if not simple) piece.

[Sgt.Gator]

Quick Update: My dry sump hot oil temps are solved. I went to ORP for an all day test&tune. The air and track temps were much lower than the last two times, 61 degrees air temp and a cool track because of clouds.

I set my shift lights to go double red at 6300 RPM instead of my previous 6700. That and the underdrive pulley and racing oil seem to have solved my issues. And I wasn't babying it, I pushed the car the last session to several laps that were my personal best times there.

The oil temp maxed out at 221. My water temps maxed at 198. Literally all day and my water temps never hit 200! My transmission actually got hotter than my engine oil, hitting 230.

For next summer when track temps are in the 130's again I'm confidant that an additional oil cooler should keep things under control.

[Mitch Wright]

Congratulations

[walt555]

Quick Update: My dry sump hot oil temps are solved. I went to ORP for an all day test&tune. The air and track temps were much lower than the last two times, 61 degrees air temp and a cool track because of clouds.

I set my shift lights to go double red at 6300 RPM instead of my previous 6700. That and the underdrive pulley and racing oil seem to have solved my issues. And I wasn't babying it, I pushed the car the last session to several laps that were my personal best times there.

The oil temp maxed out at 221. My water temps maxed at 198. Literally all day and my water temps never hit 200! My transmission actually got hotter than my engine oil, hitting 230.

For next summer when track temps are in the 130's again I'm confidant that an additional oil cooler should keep things under control.


I was wondering what oil pump are you using the 10 or 11? And if the 10 can keep up pressure with the 20-50.

[Sgt.Gator]

I changed from the 11 to the 10. I have no plans to go back to the 11 on my OEM shortblock.

Last summer my pressures stayed between 64 and 73 PSI at 240 degrees oil temps unless I do something stupid and let my rpm drop to idle, in which case the PSI will drop to 14.

In looking at my data from last weekend for this reply I noticed that my oil pressure would drop into the 50s in the same place every lap. Interestingly it wasn't in the 1.4 G turns. It was in a place where I had just dropped off a steep "cliff" then was initiating a hard left turn with a lot of compression. Think almost like a Corkscrew at Laguna Seca type drop with a left turn at the bottom. Not really too concerned since 54 psi is still pretty good and it happens when I lift off the throttle to brake as I go down the hill into the hard turn. For the few people here familiar with ORP it was at the bottom of the drop leading into the Half Pipe turns.

[Scargo]

45517
I have one. Will work/fits, though I've not used it yet. I got mine at Amazon. (http://www.amazon.com/Moroso-23815-Filter-Block-Off-Plate/dp/B001EMVJU8)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

45517
I have one. Will work/fits, though I've not used it yet. I got mine at Amazon. (http://www.amazon.com/Moroso-23815-Filter-Block-Off-Plate/dp/B001EMVJU8)

If you use the oil filter hole as input. Does the OEM pump need to be blocked off?
Is the OEM bypass valve still in play?
Bob

[Mulry]

I don't think that the stock oil pump needs to be blocked off, and the bypass valve isn't used anymore but doesn't need to be removed. Here's what Bill Dailey of Dailey Engineering recommends when installing a dry sump setup:


"The only other mod is to remove the stock oil pan and windage tray and remove the stock oil pump gears from the front cover. I find it best to remove the backing plate and leave it off so oil can splash on the front main seal. The front cover can retain all the internal parts for the pressure regulator as they will no longer do anything....

"There are some options for feeding oil into the motor. Most use the sandwich style oil filter connection to allow the line to come out of the motor to an oil cooler. If you do this you will simply cap off the outlet fitting which will in turn seal off the hole feeding backwards to the oil pump which is not there anymore. Since the oil pump is already outside of the motor you will connect the pressure outlet from the oil pump to the oil cooler and back to the inlet on the sandwich plate. If use an external remote mounted oil filter you will have to source a cover plate with a -12 inlet fitting for the oil filter pad to feed oil into the motor."

FWIW, I really like his dry sump pan with integrated pump, I think it's a very efficient combination, but it requires a complete revision of the headers, which I'm trying to avoid. In addition, it's spendy: $3100ish just for the pump/pan combo, not including the oil tank, lines, etc. But man, it is gorgeous:

http://www.daileyengineering.com/subaru_ej_4_cylinder.htm

[Scargo]

I am with you, Mulry. I have had some communications with Dailey and will likely go that route. In his comments he did say that you would remove the pump's gears. That means there is nothing happening within the stock oil pump setup because the basic guts are removed.
With any external dry-sump setup I doubt you want the stock pump involved, though I think that's how Cosworth handles it. And theirs is super big bucks.

[Sgt.Gator]

By request, my front vent hose routing.
47504

[Mulry]

Photo link is busted :(

[Sgt.Gator]

Google Photos doesn't support forum links anymore. I've uploaded it to the FF server, should work now.

[C.Plavan]

I swapped my 11cm oil pump to a 10cm. I'll test again sometime soon.

[Rasmus]

Reading Chads oil issues makes me think going with at least a 3 stage (2 for scavenge, 1 for pressure) pump would eliminate a headache or two. Just gut the OEM oil pump and run it as an idle pulley.

[Scargo]

There does seem to be some advantages to running an external pump. I cannot speak to ratios or flow rates but pressures are usually easily adjusted from what I've read. Then the oil goes back to the reservoir and/or is cooled before the next pass.
Given that Chad's engine build is suspect I will not jump to conclusions. I run an 11cm pump and think that's considered normal for a higher performance engine.
Just to be the Devil's Advocate (or an as**ole) Chris of Killer B says to run four scavenging pumps so each head gets a sucker!

[C.Plavan]

I forgot to update this thread after talking to Jim for an extended time at SEMA. The FFR 818R has the same Dry Sump system as Gator and I. It also has a built motor from Element Tuning. But the crazy thing is that it does not have ANY oil coolers, not even the OEM heat exchanger. They are not seeing oil temp problems, but they are having aftermarket ECU issues.

This is also where I found out Jim recommends plugging the Heater Core tubes instead of using the U shaped tube they send with the kit (at least my kit). He says it helps speed up the coolant burping process. Hopefully he will chime in.

[Pearldrummer7]

I forgot to update this thread after talking to Jim for an extended time at SEMA. The FFR 818R has the same Dry Sump system as Gator and I. It also has a built motor from Element Tuning. But the crazy thing is that it does not have ANY oil coolers, not even the OEM heat exchanger. They are not seeing oil temp problems, but they are having aftermarket ECU issues.

This is also where I found out Jim recommends plugging the Heater Core tubes instead of using the U shaped tube they send with the kit (at least my kit). He says it helps speed up the coolant burping process. Hopefully he will chime in.

Did he say why they deleted the OEM oil cooler? I can't imagine there's much incentive to that. Thanks for the post-SEMA update for us.

[Jim Schenck]

My main thinking behind blocking off the oem oil cooler and the heater core circuit was to help burp the cooling system and force the coolant flow through the radiator instead of doing one of the shorter loops. In the stock system the oil cooler, turbo/degas tank, and heater core all provide alternate paths for the coolant to flow instead of going through the radiator. Blocking these off not only helps force air pockets out of the system, but also passes more of the coolant through the radiator once the air is out, helping the whole system efficiency. The plan for the 818R was to use an inline oil cooler because it is so easy to plumb in with the dry sump and we made all the hoses and mounts for the cooler but have never needed to install it at the track. (We still bring it just in case) Also in researching it I have seen many street and track built engines with the OEM cooler removed due to it being only slightly effective and at the same time adding complexity to the system. Some models of the EJ engines didn't have the cooler so we just used the plug and oil filter mount from those engines.

The other thing doing this has taught us is the blocking off the circuits during the burping process makes a world of difference in terms of the difficulty of getting the air out of the system. When we built the last coupe we pinch off all three auxiliary circuits with hose pliers and then, as the system worked the air out and settle in to maintaining its operating temperature, we released the circuits one by one giving a few minutes to burp before releasing the next one. (releasing them all at once didn't work and air bound the system) This was by far the easiest time we have had burping any 818 and we are planning to do a video demo once the car gets back in the shop, it just came back from SEMA yesterday so it'll be coming soon.

[Flamshackle]

The other thing doing this has taught us is the blocking off the circuits during the burping process makes a world of difference in terms of the difficulty of getting the air out of the system. When we built the last coupe we pinch off all three auxiliary circuits with hose pliers and then, as the system worked the air out and settle in to maintaining its operating temperature, we released the circuits one by one giving a few minutes to burp before releasing the next one. (releasing them all at once didn't work and air bound the system) This was by far the easiest time we have had burping any 818 and we are planning to do a video demo once the car gets back in the shop, it just came back from SEMA yesterday so it'll be coming soon.

keen to see this^

cheers for the input Jim.

[Scargo]

These connection spots for the heat exchanger, AKA, or commonly known as, the oil cooler, is easy to block off by drilling slightly larger and tapping for a 1/4" NPT. Jim is probably right that it doesn't even need to be drilled out further before tapping. Do the pump while off the engine.
As Jim said, this part just adds complexity and offers little benefit. This part, required to help pass emissions standards during a cold startup, is definitely NOT a substitute for an oil cooler.
It would be crazy if Chad's issues are related to an air pocket somewhere in the cooling system.

[Pearldrummer7]

My main thinking behind blocking off the oem oil cooler and the heater core circuit was to help burp the cooling system and force the coolant flow through the radiator instead of doing one of the shorter loops. In the stock system the oil cooler, turbo/degas tank, and heater core all provide alternate paths for the coolant to flow instead of going through the radiator. Blocking these off not only helps force air pockets out of the system, but also passes more of the coolant through the radiator once the air is out, helping the whole system efficiency. The plan for the 818R was to use an inline oil cooler because it is so easy to plumb in with the dry sump and we made all the hoses and mounts for the cooler but have never needed to install it at the track. (We still bring it just in case) Also in researching it I have seen many street and track built engines with the OEM cooler removed due to it being only slightly effective and at the same time adding complexity to the system. Some models of the EJ engines didn't have the cooler so we just used the plug and oil filter mount from those engines.

The other thing doing this has taught us is the blocking off the circuits during the burping process makes a world of difference in terms of the difficulty of getting the air out of the system. When we built the last coupe we pinch off all three auxiliary circuits with hose pliers and then, as the system worked the air out and settle in to maintaining its operating temperature, we released the circuits one by one giving a few minutes to burp before releasing the next one. (releasing them all at once didn't work and air bound the system) This was by far the easiest time we have had burping any 818 and we are planning to do a video demo once the car gets back in the shop, it just came back from SEMA yesterday so it'll be coming soon.

Awesome! Thanks for the reply, Jim. This is great information.

[Mitch Wright]

Thanks for the info Jim.

[Mulry]

My main thinking behind blocking off the oem oil cooler and the heater core circuit was to help burp the cooling system and force the coolant flow through the radiator instead of doing one of the shorter loops. In the stock system the oil cooler, turbo/degas tank, and heater core all provide alternate paths for the coolant to flow instead of going through the radiator. Blocking these off not only helps force air pockets out of the system, but also passes more of the coolant through the radiator once the air is out, helping the whole system efficiency. The plan for the 818R was to use an inline oil cooler because it is so easy to plumb in with the dry sump and we made all the hoses and mounts for the cooler but have never needed to install it at the track. (We still bring it just in case) Also in researching it I have seen many street and track built engines with the OEM cooler removed due to it being only slightly effective and at the same time adding complexity to the system. Some models of the EJ engines didn't have the cooler so we just used the plug and oil filter mount from those engines.

The other thing doing this has taught us is the blocking off the circuits during the burping process makes a world of difference in terms of the difficulty of getting the air out of the system. When we built the last coupe we pinch off all three auxiliary circuits with hose pliers and then, as the system worked the air out and settle in to maintaining its operating temperature, we released the circuits one by one giving a few minutes to burp before releasing the next one. (releasing them all at once didn't work and air bound the system) This was by far the easiest time we have had burping any 818 and we are planning to do a video demo once the car gets back in the shop, it just came back from SEMA yesterday so it'll be coming soon.

Did you just do this with the time-honored method of using short tube capped with bolts held in by worm clamps, or something fancier? I'd love to see a photo or two if you have them around. Or I guess I could just wait for the video :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

My main thinking behind blocking off the oem oil cooler and the heater core circuit was to help burp the cooling system and force the coolant flow through the radiator instead of doing one of the shorter loops. In the stock system the oil cooler, turbo/degas tank, and heater core all provide alternate paths for the coolant to flow instead of going through the radiator. Blocking these off not only helps force air pockets out of the system, but also passes more of the coolant through the radiator once the air is out, helping the whole system efficiency. The plan for the 818R was to use an inline oil cooler because it is so easy to plumb in with the dry sump and we made all the hoses and mounts for the cooler but have never needed to install it at the track. (We still bring it just in case) Also in researching it I have seen many street and track built engines with the OEM cooler removed due to it being only slightly effective and at the same time adding complexity to the system. Some models of the EJ engines didn't have the cooler so we just used the plug and oil filter mount from those engines.

The other thing doing this has taught us is the blocking off the circuits during the burping process makes a world of difference in terms of the difficulty of getting the air out of the system. When we built the last coupe we pinch off all three auxiliary circuits with hose pliers and then, as the system worked the air out and settle in to maintaining its operating temperature, we released the circuits one by one giving a few minutes to burp before releasing the next one. (releasing them all at once didn't work and air bound the system) This was by far the easiest time we have had burping any 818 and we are planning to do a video demo once the car gets back in the shop, it just came back from SEMA yesterday so it'll be coming soon.

Nice explanation Jim,
I think it is a good thing to have higher pressure forcing more water to the front radiator.
This method brought up 2 questions for me a long time ago.

1. When the thermostat is closed, how will the pump circulate water within the engine to prevent hot spots?
The pump might just sit there and cavitate with no fluid feed.

2. How will hot water get to the back side of the thermostat causing it to open?

Thanks
Bob

[Jim Schenck]

To cap the two blocked off ports in the water pump we used an Npt tap and then threaded pipe plugs. We have never had great luck with the rubber caps for hose ends as they always seem to dry rot way quicker than you would think they should but if you keep an eye on them they still would work. The pipe plugs are pretty easy to install after you pull the hose barbs out of the pump, i don't think we even had to drill out the hole before using the tap.

The coolant still circulates when the thermostat is closed this way because the turbo/degas line still returns to the water pump on the engine side. This allows the coolant to flow through these routes right from startup but then as the coolant in the water pump comes up to temp it will heat up the thermostat as well same as it does when all three lines are in place. The original heater core line circulates from the coolant crossover tube above the engine so blocking that off wouldn't create a hot spot inside the block, but the oil cooler I would have been more worried about until after researching I found some Subarus run with that plugged off from the factory. That is actually how I plugged the block where the water line to the cooler went, by ordering the OEM plug.

[Sgt.Gator]

Interesting. It's funny, I took the "cooler" off my LGT when it was still a OEM oil system because I considered it mostly an oil heater, not a cooler. I put it back on when I installed the dry sump because the DS system takes forever to get all the oil warmed up and I wanted to speed up that process.
And I'm sure it does add to the total cooling capacity of the oil system. See the Corvette post above.
Good Stuff, keep it coming!

[Scargo]

As I read the Corvette oil cooler info in post 241, it kept going through my head, "what of all these pieces could we utilize in our dry sump setups?". You know, used parts from the wrecking yard.
Thanks for posting that and referring to it. Sometimes I have trouble keeping up with all my subscribed threads.
Is anyone not using a thermostatic bypass valve on their DS setup? I have it on my STi, because of my large oil cooler and nine quart capacity.

[Sgt.Gator]

As I read the Corvette oil cooler info in post 241, it kept going through my head, "what of all these pieces could we utilize in our dry sump setups?". You know, used parts from the wrecking yard.
Thanks for posting that and referring to it. Sometimes I have trouble keeping up with all my subscribed threads.
Is anyone not using a thermostatic bypass valve on their DS setup? I have it on my STi, because of my large oil cooler and nine quart capacity.

I can't think of how to do a thermostatic valve on an aftermarket DS system. I have seen DS tank heaters. They come as blankets you wrap or glue to the outside of the DST or as internal immersion "wands" that go inside the tank. You can order your tank with one from Peterson. You plug them in half an hour before start up to pre warm the oil. Google Dry sump heaters and you'll find several.

[Mulry]

Lots of DS tanks that you find used on eBay come with these already installed :)

[FFRSpec72]

To cap the two blocked off ports in the water pump we used an Npt tap and then threaded pipe plugs.

Jim, are you talking about these 2 lines ?

47744

[Scargo]

Lots of DS tanks that you find used on eBay come with these already installed :)
Perhaps I haven't polished my ball lately, but what are "these"?

[Scargo]

Jim, are you talking about these 2 lines ?

47744
Obviously I'm not Jim, but I have to laugh and say WTF? He's talking about the mess underneath.
This is part of it.
http://www.scoobymods.com/mods/impreza/images/542x644xcooler3.jpg.pagespeed.ic.mSGcZDErIJ.webp
Where it says replace coolant plug, you can do that or put a pipe plug in the hole after removing the nipple.
Get rid of all this. Plug off the water pump with a 1/4 NPT plug before installing or block off the hose. Use only about a 1-1/2 inch piece of hose off the pump with a plug inside the hose.
4775147752

[C.Plavan]

I'm wondering if I should remove my heat exchanger while I'm down there.

[Scargo]

I don't mean to be a nag or irritating, but I'd say, Hell Yes! You have a dry sump and you still have that POS on there? Get the right water pump, cut off and drill out the nipple and plug the hole. Buy a solid plug for the other end or plug what you have as on the pump. Now you will have to decide how to deal with the filter mount area. Are you returning oil to that spot, as is, with an aftermarket sandwich plate? Don't you already have a remote filter block? A thermostatic valve to bypass the oil reservoir?
You can use this as a return where the filter would go. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001EMVJU8?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage) You then just need the stubby tube, Subaru part 15018aa050 which is the oil filter union (or what eliminates the long tube union which is use with the heat exchanger)
47753

[Sgt.Gator]

Perhaps I haven't polished my ball lately, but what are "these"?
"These" are dry sump tank heaters. Used DS tanks often have them included.


I'm wondering if I should remove my heat exchanger while I'm down there.

It depends.
Cons:
They are prone to slight oil leaks. Especially if used with a sandwich plate adaptor for an external oil cooler.
They hang your oil filter lower and in harm's way, again especially with a sandwich adaptor plate....If you go for a rough off track you can rip the entire thing out of the block, it breaks off inside the block. I know this for a fact because I did it.

Pros:
They help speed up warming your oil, especially with a large DS and no DS tank heater. They also add oil cooling capacity by moving some of the heat exchange to the radiator.

If it hangs down low on your 818R you might consider the Cons more important than the Pros..
After mine tore out of the block I went without the cooler/heater until I installed the DS, then I put it back in.

FYI, A new Subaru shortblock comes with the block plugged. You have to install the plug/fitting for the cooler/heater water hose in the new block. If you decide to remove the cooler I can send you one I have laying around here, or any local shop will have them from building engines for customers.


I don't mean to be a nag or irritating, but I'd say, Hell Yes! You have a dry sump and you still have that POS on there? Get the right water pump, cut off and drill out the nipple and plug the hole. Buy a solid plug for the other end or plug what you have as on the pump. Now you will have to decide how to deal with the filter mount area. Are you returning oil to that spot, as is, with an aftermarket sandwich plate? Don't you already have a remote filter block? A thermostatic valve to bypass the oil reservoir?
You can use this as a return where the filter would go. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001EMVJU8?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage) You then just need the stubby tube, Subaru part 15018aa050 which is the oil filter union (or what eliminates the long tube union which is use with the heat exchanger)
47753

"Are you returning oil to that spot, as is, with an aftermarket sandwich plate? Don't you already have a remote filter block? A thermostatic valve to bypass the oil reservoir?" The answer to those three questions is no he doesn't. The ARE DS pan and Element Tuning system has a fitting where the DS tank return line attaches to feed oil up thru the OEM pickup system to the OEM pump. Cosworth does the same. If you have a pressure stage then you could do what you are suggesting. But the Element and Cosworth don't have a pressure stage.

[Scargo]

Yep... I don't know the system. Just guessing. Sorry.

[Mulry]

Hey guys, quick note. I'll be at PRI on Thursday (and maybe Friday morning) and am planning to confer with Gary Armstrong of ARE regarding a couple questions about our dry sump setup. Let me know if you have any questions that I can ask him and I'll see what I can do.

[Wayne Presley]

I'll be there T/F and maybe Saturday

[Mulry]

Looking over my "show plan," a day and a half is grossly inadequate for everything that I want to see and companies I want to talk to, but that's the time I have in my schedule. Oh well. Definitely not going to be able to hit the 220 booths that I have scheduled right now...

[Santiago]

Mulry, can you get a rough price quote for a full ARE system? For some reason I keep thinking that the last run down I saw was some sort of "shop price" (not for retail direct to customers). Anyway, have fun! I was supposed to be there but the wife decided to have a birthday this weekend...

Best,
-j

[Mulry]

The "full ARE system" is a pretty ambiguous thing since it's typically customized for every car. The price list that ARE gives out with "shop prices" or "racer prices" or whatever it says is the direct retail to customer price that I paid for the parts that I bought from them. PM me your email address and I'd be glad to share the price list that I got earlier this year with you.

[Scargo]

Chris of "Killer B" has been adamant that the Subaru motor needs four scavenging pumps. One for each head and two in the sump. Ask them what they think about this. I'm guessing they are using an external oil pump and don't use the stock pump, like Cosworth does. I know adjustments are simpler if it is external or by using an external pressure control valve. Perhaps you could get some feedback about these things.
I like the Daily setup (underneath), but beyond that I am fairly ignorant. I need to get off the fence soon. Thanks!

[Mulry]

I like the Daily setup too, and he'll be there too. I just didn't want to have to re-do my entire exhaust system yet, which would be a requirement for the Daily setup. I'll try to ask ARE and/or Daily about those topics. It makes zero sense to me that you would need a scavenge stage for the heads since those will be draining to the dry sump plate via the suction action of the scavenge pumps attached there. I'm interested in that answer too. The other problem with that issue is that there is no room for a 5-stage pump on the EJ engine, other than underneath (necessitating the exhaust rebuild) or WAY up high above it.

[Scargo]

Agreed. The idea is that at high G's that where the oil is and where it needs to be removed from. Not sure if I buy the logic since there is a lot of oil in a DS reservoir. not sure how it would be accomplished. I am fine with a custom exhaust where the turbo is low and in front.

[Mulry]

Yeah, I get the theory, but where I have some cognitive dissonance is in the idea that there is enough slosh in an actively scavenged motor to pool in the heads.

[C.Plavan]

Porsche 911's have been Non head scavenged since 1965-1998.

[Mulry]

Porsche 911's have been Non head scavenged since 1965-1998.

Exactly. I'm not sure that we really even need to loop the head breathers to the PVC port on the crankcase, I suspect we could just plug all 3 and have fewer avenues for air to leak into the scavenge system.

[Scargo]

Yeah, I get the theory, but where I have some cognitive dissonance is in the idea that there is enough slosh in an actively scavenged motor to pool in the heads.
DOH! Palm to the forehead! That makes a lot of sense...:o

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm repeating myself so please excuse me...but not only does the Element Tuning "kit" not use a pressure pump or scavenge ports in the heads, the Cosworth Engineering system doesn't either. You may not fully trust Element Tuning, but I trust the Cosworth Engineers to know what they are doing. After all, they build Formula 1 parts too.

[Scargo]

I have yet to use a dry sump system so I hope that keeps me from getting my head chopped off.
As I understand it, with a DS, an external pressure pump allows for fast and simple adjustments of the oil pressure. Otherwise it is a bit of a chore to get to the plug in the stock pump location and change the spring and/or shims and try it again. Then, you must change out the stock located pump to affect volume.
Oil pressure seems the single most critical element you can look at in an oiling system. Others are: temperature, volume, aeration and (?).
Perhaps there is not that much variation in oil pressure for most conditions. Needs also vary by all internal clearances and the overall quality of the system. Stock galleys and passages in the castings may not be optimal. I wonder if any additional cross-drilling is done on 2.5L cranks like is done on some 2L cranks? Lots of work is done by various race engine builders and not much info is shared. Hoses or fittings might be too small.

The other issue is cost. I did research all these systems to some degree. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?15502-Oil-issues-Dry-Sump-Accusump-for-road-racing&p=175177&viewfull=1#post175177)Cosworth doesn't give you much for the huge outlay. Since there seems to be some of variables in the Element Tuning system there is doubt in my mind about what you get for your money and why you need ET to do their pieced-together system.
I am a DIY who has no fear of ordering hoses, tanks and other pieces. I have a reliable non-DS system in my ST2 level STi track car. Yet, I know of many STi engines that "blow up" on the track when they are basically left stock.

I just want to know whose DS system has a solid track record. Literally. I don't feel like I can call up Cosworth and ask for advice. Their system seems discontinued.* With Dailey, I feel that they are available. I am unsure about ET. The thing is, I won't be calling any of them up and asking if their system is superior. One TT weekend per engine rebuild is not convincing enough for me. Perhaps that's short-sighted? I want users telling me that their DS system works. Ones that can get a season out of the engine. There just aren't that many Subie DS users out there and data seems hard to find.
Another small benefit from an external pressure pump is the ability to prime a new engine with oil before cranking it over or starting it. Normally you would have to find a place to tap into the system, create a special adapter, change that back afterwards and, depending on your setup these spots can be difficult to get at. I have had a tap on the left AVCS banjo bolt for this purpose and to mount a pressure sensor. That location seems the most accessible.
*Correction: It seems that only Rallispec has discontinued selling the Cosworth DS system. I see that it is available elsewhere.

[Mulry]

I have some definitive answers from a conversation I just had with Gary Armstrong. Too much to type on a phone but will supplement later. Stay tuned :)

[Zach34]

FFR has been running Element's setup, if I'm not mistaken? A call to them would probably get you a good testimonial.

[DanielsDM]

When I visited FFR in August Tony told me they were running a Cosworth dry sump on their grey 818R now. I don't know what they had before.

[C.Plavan]

When I visited FFR in August Tony told me they were running a Cosworth dry sump on their grey 818R now. I don't know what they had before.

Jim at SEMA said the Element Tuning Drysump.

[Mulry]

I have some definitive answers from a conversation I just had with Gary Armstrong. Too much to type on a phone but will supplement later. Stay tuned :)

Ok, sorry for the delay. I wanted to get to a keyboard for this and all I had was my phone and tablet while I was in Indy but am home now.

On Thursday morning at PRI, I had a longer conversation with Gary Armstrong of ARE about some various dry sump configuration questions. With regard to Sprintric location, he said that it's ideal to locate the Spintric closer to the dry sump oil tank rather than further from it. Keeping it closer permits sending only one line from the scavenge side of the oil pump to the oil tank location. This is especially useful (from a cost and complication perspective) if you are going to keep the oil tank far from the engine, like they do in NASCAR, where the oil tank typically resides behind the driver.

With regard to the issue of needing a separate stage to scavenge the heads, he does not believe that it is necessary because the oil pump will scavenge all the oil from the heads, but even if there is limited pooling in the heads in a long sweeper-type turn, there is enough excess capacity in the oil tank that you won't lose lubrication. We should loop the head breathers to the crankcase vent (where the PCV valve is located, but we don't need the PVC valve) and then tie those three locations back to the top of the oil tank so that there is ventilation through the engine. Without providing that ventilation, the oil sump can't suck -- it will create too much suction pressure and fail. He used the analogy of if you put a straw in a drink and cap the straw with your finger and remove the straw from the drink -- the suction prevents the fluid from leaving the straw. Same thing if we don't provide ventilation to the crankcase and heads. Those lines shouldn't see very high pressure, so the solution that Sgt Gator came up with (I think?) should be an effective solution.

That's all I can remember on that topic right now. It was a long (and incredible) day and a half and my head is filled with info about various topics from it, so I might be forgetting something. We did have a longer conversation, so if you have any other questions just ask and I might have already asked them of Gary. Cheers.

[Scargo]

This part, "then tie those three locations back to the top of the oil tank so that there is ventilation through the engine. Without providing that ventilation, the oil sump can't suck -- it will create too much suction pressure and fail.", is the part of the comments I can't resolve.
I read that a major benefit of DS is the negative crankcase pressure it develops and how it assists in sealing the rings and boosts horsepower. As with the system Cosworth offered, a regulator would be in the system to control crankcase vacuum and pressure and the system would be otherwise sealed. If the pump is having issues then it should be upsized. I see ARE offers a pressure regulating module that ties in with the scavenge pump cluster, but they're using the stock Subaru pump, correct? What size do they recommend? I would guess an 11 or 12 that might be unregulated...

[C.Plavan]

This part, "then tie those three locations back to the top of the oil tank so that there is ventilation through the engine. Without providing that ventilation, the oil sump can't suck -- it will create too much suction pressure and fail.", is the part of the comments I can't resolve.
I read that a major benefit of DS is the negative crankcase pressure it develops and how it assists in sealing the rings and boosts horsepower. As with the system Cosworth offered, a regulator would be in the system to control crankcase vacuum and pressure and the system would be otherwise sealed. If the pump is having issues then it should be upsized. I see ARE offers a pressure regulating module that ties in with the scavenge pump cluster, but they're using the stock Subaru pump, correct? What size do they recommend? I would guess an 11 or 12 that might be unregulated...

FYI- I'm going back to venting to the tank.

[Sgt.Gator]

To clarify, the analogy would only be correct if the entire system were sealed, but it's not. The DS tank is vented to open air thru a catch can. So the oil coming from the DS tank to the stock oil pump is never working against a closed suction. The OEM pump will not fail because of it. In fact since the DS tank is higher than the OEM pump, the pump is getting oil fed with a slight positive pressure due to gravity.
You did say the oil sump suction pump would fail, and yes there the system is under suction, if you don't count the gas blow by of combustion past the piston rings. Which of course is the purpose for venting a crankcase, otherwise positive pressure builds up and blows the seals outwards and other bad things.
I'm surprised he has that concern since most dry sump system builders work hard to seal up the engine and create negative pressure, up to a point of diminishing returns. I find it a little humorous that most builders like Killer Bee, say you must have multiple scavenge pumps to be able to handle all the positive blow by pressure because there is too much positive pressure for the Element Tuning and Cosworth pumps to keep up. And now ARE is saying to vent the engine block because you will create too MUCH negative pressure!
Obviously dry sumps on Subarus is still an Art and not a Science!

[C.Plavan]

I just was having some weird oil pressure readings after sealing the motor up. I never had them before when it was vented to the tank. I'm not risking it.

[Sgt.Gator]

I just was having some weird oil pressure readings after sealing the motor up. I never had them before when it was vented to the tank. I'm not risking it.

Further proof your engine is possessed by a gremlin.

[C.Plavan]

Further proof your engine is possessed by a gremlin.

True!

[Scargo]

Sarge, I agree... it's black art in many a mind. Certainly lots of variables. I do suspect you could copy or mimic what Porsche has done and have success, though I can't find details about their system and in one place it said the oil reservoir was built-in to one of their engines! Perhaps someone has some specs on the system and performance specs, like oil pressure, vacuum levels and controls.
I have been reading for days now and I'm not sure I'm a lot smarter than when I started. I hope I am not repeating things already discussed here, but I'm going to include everything I feel is relevant anyway. Grab a beer and find a quiet place. I got a little carried away... ;)
A boxer motor may have some unique problems and solutions. I question the efficacy of sticking with the stock Subaru oil pump for DS. Can they really be relied on, whether 10, 11, or 12mm, as a "one size fits all" solution? Perhaps within 7,000 RPMs, but what about my desire to turn 9,000? Already we see pulleys being changed to slow scavenging rates and some oil pumps may be constantly bypassing at high RPMs from too much volume and subsequent high pressure.
As to having or not having a closed system: With all case venting closed off, head vents interconnected and valve covers sealed properly (IE, no leaks) the system is essentially closed. The pressure pump feeding the engine is pulling nothing but oil from the reservoir (with atmospheric pressure help). The pump is creating internal pressure which works against what the scavenging pumps are doing. As long as you can adjust each pump then you can control the vacuum that the scavenging pumps are able to generate. The blowby is where it becomes tricky in that a turbo can have a significant effect. Not enough scavenging and your oil seals and/or gaskets might fail or even blow out. Too little suction from the scavenging pumps could have a detrimental affect on oil pressure in a sealed system. *This is where the regulating is a critical element of the system.* A vacuum regulator keeps you from exceeding the perhaps optimal 8-10, or even possibly 14 inHG of crankcase vacuum. It seems that around 14" or higher you need squirters to keep the pistons and pins lubed.
From this Engine Labs article (http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/engine/tech-crankcase-pressure-control-oil-and-air-control/): "In road racing applications, and some drag racing instances where there is frequent throttle fluctuation from changing conditions or “pedaling” the throttle, there may also be a need for a pop-off valve to help relieve built up pressure. Under these circumstances, the engine can actually go from a vacuum situation to a positive pressure situation. Generally, these pop-off valves have one-way operation and are typically placed on the valve cover. They open at a specified pressure and allow crankcase pressure to vent to the atmosphere."
So, what I conclude is, too little suction in a closed system is the biggest concern. *Increased vacuum will lower the oil pressure so it must be compensated for.
I'll buy into the fact that aeration is, or can be a big problem. A good DS storage tank with air/oil separation capabilities is absolutely essential. I have a hunch that with enough oil, a well-designed tank and a properly set-up scavenging system, you are likely to get enough entrained air released to not require something like the Spintric air-oil separator. It's also important not to oversize the scavenging return hoses. From what I've read, a single, -10 return line would be the maximum needed and only a -12 for the feed line.
What about optimum pressures? Some suggest 65 PSI@2K to 85 PSI max(?) is the sweet spot for our motors. I don't know what kind of bearing clearances were being used but the Aussies that were suggesting this were building top performing, high HP, TT cars.

Is there a consensus of the order of the DS components and what is needed? Some say you go from the pumps scavenging the hot oil straight to the tank. I think you would want to go through the Spintric or other de-aeration device first, if equipped. I agree with the argument that air entrainment is best resolved when the oil is the hottest and thinnest. From the tank, which also must slow the oil flow and separate out air, you then go to the pressure pump (with adjustable pressure relief valve), to the main filter, to the cooler and finally into the engine. Some use large particle caching, in-line screen filters, like an Oberg, or, in the case of a Dailey or Zen system, screening in the pan to catch big particles as the oil is scavenged out, but before they can reach the scavenging pumps. A thermostatic bypass valve can be inserted just before the oil cooler. Then there's the breather tank off the main tank and the main tank may have a heater element installed.
I'm not sure if any check valves for oil are required. That might depend on the tank placement. Could you potentially see the tank drain its contents into the engine? Oil filters typically have an anti-syphoning check-valve but that would not prevent oil from moving towards the engine.

So, back to the "black art" part where, because of variables in builds and use, you need someone who knows what they are doing to spec the system for you or you may be doing a lot of R&D and spending a lot of money to get it right.
One of my next searches will be to see if there is a better piston ring combo for DS. I'm going to start with calling Total Seal. Some research has indicated that that's the case.
I'm certainly hoping for discussion and debate, especially from those with experience, and stand to be corrected, as 98% of this is "from the internet".

[Mulry]

Here's how I've designed my setup. I haven't run the engine yet, but I did enough research before I started buying (and follow up after) that I'm confident that lubrication won't be a problem:

Dry sump pan -> 2 scavenge stages on DS oil pump -> -16 long pipes to the front of the car -> Spintric -> oil tank (with pre-heater and Olberg tattletale filter on the inputs) -> oil filter -> oil cooler -> -16 long pipe return to the engine -> pressure stage of DS oil pump -> oil input @ former oil filter location on block.

I've gutted the gears out of the stock oil pump so that the pulley is still there for timing belt purposes, but won't develop any pressure.

I don't think that DS oil systems are really any great mystery, nor is the EJ motor, nor is the effect and use of DS systems on boxer engines. Some of the specifics are different, but Porsche basically solved this problem in about 1965 and the fundamentals haven't changed since then.

[RetroRacing]

-16? Wow! At 100psi at 10,000 rpm, we only use a -10 oil line with straight 40 racing oil in our rotary's

Is the oil system really that different on these engines?

[Mulry]

-16? Wow! At 100psi at 10,000 rpm, we only use a -10 oil line with straight 40 racing oil in our rotary's

Is the oil system really that different on these engines?

I don't think that it's that different on these engines, that's what Gary Armstrong recommended. But my oil cooler outputs on a -12 line, so I may use that for the feed. He strongly suggested a -16 for the output due to the air entrained in the oil.

[Scargo]

Output means what? A large hose from the output from the scavenging pumps goes against several sources I found. I have a -12 on one side of my Setrab 12x12x2 oil cooler (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=oil+cooler): 450-550 HP #50-640-7612 12.99"X12.20", 45,000-67,000 btu/hr range. I assumed that the -12 fitting was the input to the cooler. I only have -10 going in and out of it.

[Sgt.Gator]

Mulry how are you going to force oil thru the filter and oil cooler if they are after the tank and before the DS pump? The oil coming out of the tank is only under the pressure of gravity.

[Scargo]

I just want to say that having read a few more things I came across this, which seems to answer what I asked about the possibility of the oil tank draining into the engine: This usually won't happen right away. When the pump is brand new it will be tight enough to hold oil against gravity. (The tank will invariably be higher than the pump.) Then when it gets a little wear on it, the pump will let the oil drain back through. You can fix this by a) draining the oil out of the tank between events, which is good practice anyway, or b) installing a shut valve or check valve in the line. (http://forums.autosport.com/topic/90374-dry-sump-plumbing-sizing/?p=2507183)
Thanks for the suggestion about the Oberg filters (http://www.obergfilters.com/main.html). I think these ARE fittings with screens (http://www.drysump.com/screenfit.htm)are a great idea if the scavenge pumps allow for them, but still wonder how to deal with a Dailey type system when and if you end up with chunks of metal entering the pumps. Perhaps Dailey has a solution?

[Sgt.Gator]

I've read about guys putting an electric drill to the scavenge pump and spinning it up for a minute to move excess oil out of the DS sump and back to the tank. If the pump also includes an engine pressure stage it pre-oils the engine before you start up. That is relatively easy for pumps mounted on top of the engine, more difficult for the pumps mounted low. Probably both are near impossible in a mid engine location like an 818.

[Mulry]

The issue of the oil tank draining into the engine is interesting, but the possibility largely rests on the location of the oil tank versus the location of the oil pump. If using a Dailey pump integrated into the dry sump, then you could have the pump lower than the oil tank output. However, if you have a 3-stage pump that's mounting above the driver's side cylinder head, then it's unlikely that your oil tank will be higher than your pressure stage. In that case, you might want a check valve to prevent oil from backflowing out of the pressure stage when the engine is not running, although there is a fair amount of debate on whether or not that obstruction in the lubrication path is a good thing.

Because my oil system will be largely lower than the pressure stage of the oil system, I'm more concerned about priming the system prior to starting (when cold/dry). Sgt Gator notes the problem of the motor location in the chassis, but it might be possible to route a 90-degree fitting through a firewall cover to permit access to the nut on the front of the oil pump drive. Downside is that you'd also need to remove the belt prior to spinning and that may be a PITA, but is still better than wear on the bearings...

Scargo, those screened dry sump fittings are pretty commonly found in the dry sump world. Dailey uses something similar if memory serves from looking at their gear at PRI, but they also may use a screen in the pan itself.

FWIW, Gary Armstrong recommended using a #30 screen in the Olberg filter. Fine enough to catch the chunky bits, coarse enough to not impede oil flow into the oil tank. Finer bits should be captured by the media-based oil filter as the oil returns to the engine.

[Sgt.Gator]

Mulry I'm still wondering about post 348....

And I recall a guy that paddocked near me with a NASCAR truck. He used the electric drill trick to oil prime his engine every morning before startup. I guess he had it down so it was no big deal to him.

[C.Plavan]

http://www.jegs.com/i/Peterson+Fluid+Systems/615/09-1561/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710653358&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=230006180003463204&cadevice=m&gclid=Cj0KEQiA496zBRDoi5OY3p2xmaUBEiQArLNnK5rvAXta 3J9iokfVG4zzErZ6LRbe9MW2gcNEbl4NVP0aApBf8P8HAQ

[Mulry]

Sgt. Gator, 3 options available. Chad beat me to the answer on one of them. Either:

1. That Peterson remote filter mount;
2. By pulling the oil drive belt & using a drill on the nut on the dry sump oil pump drive shaft, if I can get to it and it's not too much of a PITA; or
3. Install an Accusump that I have sitting on the shelf. I don't really need the extra oil capacity but that would be the easiest way to prime & pre-lube the system, just flip a switch.

So probably #3 since I wouldn't have to buy anything new. Unless option 2 is easier than I'm anticipating.

[Sgt.Gator]

#2 not only primes the engine but also empties the dry sump back into the DS tank, which is what started this discussion.

I still don't understand your post #344 on the schematic of putting the filter and oil cooler between the DS tank and the pump. Are you planning on the pump suction to pull oil thru the filter and cooler?

[Mulry]

#2 not only primes the engine but also empties the dry sump back into the DS tank, which is what started this discussion.

I still don't understand your post #344 on the schematic of putting the filter and oil cooler between the DS tank and the pump. Are you planning on the pump suction to pull oil thru the filter and cooler?

That's a good catch. I misread the diagram. So that's not the plan anymore :) Thanks! Gonna have to reconfigure that part.

[Mitch Wright]

I have been talking to a gentleman from the Netherlands who is with Saker Race cars which use a EJ engine and are pulling lateral g of 1.7 m/s2 using a wet sump. We have been discussing the solutions that they have come up with and the issues that they have had. As I get more information I will pass it along.
What has been really positive is as I have waded through the BS the direction I have taken is pretty much inline with Saker has been successful doing.
http://sakersportscars.com/?lang=en

[FFRSpec72]

I have been talking to a gentleman from the Netherlands who is with Saker Race cars which us a EJ engine and are pulling lateral g of 1.7 m/s2 using a wet sump. We have been discussing the solutions that they have come up with and the issues that they have had. As I get more information I will pass it along.
What has been really positive is as I have waded through the BS the direction I have taken is pretty much inline with Saker has been successful doing.
http://sakersportscars.com/?lang=en

I'm still not convinced that dry sump is the way to go, my attempt will be to stay wet sump, killer-b pickup, killer-b baffles, killer-b oil pan (have STI pan now), killer-b mechanical control valve, air oil separator and be done with it. What I have seens so far are pseudo dry sump systems.

[Scargo]

I'll be interested in what you find out.
Tony, I don't know what you mean by pseudo dry sump. Do you not consider Element Tuning's Dry Sump Kit a real dry sump system and if not, why? Is it the use/reliance on the internal Subaru pump/not creating a vacuum on the case?

[FFRSpec72]

I'll be interested in what you find out.
Tony, I don't know what you mean by pseudo dry sump. Do you not consider Element Tuning's Dry Sump Kit a real dry sump system and if not, why? Is it the use/reliance on the internal Subaru pump/not creating a vacuum on the case?

One of the factors is as you point out the total reliance on the stock pump system, others being that most are 2 stage only, I have not seen anyone install a 5 stage system. I think that you may achieve the effect of keeing the heads oiled using a Element Tuning dry sump system but I think you can also achieve the same effect with much less money and uncertainty.

[Sgt.Gator]

I don't think Cosworth Engineering would refer to theirs as a pseudo dry sump. The only difference between the Cosworth system and mine is they add a vacuum regulator to relieve vacuum suction if it gets too high. And a better pulley/belt system, (and a few other details that would cause me to buy their's if I ever do this again). But theirs relies on the engine's OEM style oil pump too.

[C.Plavan]

These are real dry sumps. Unless you call Porsche 911 motors from 1965 -1998 Pseudo dry sumps. :)

[Sgt.Gator]

I have been talking to a gentleman from the Netherlands who is with Saker Race cars which use a EJ engine and are pulling lateral g of 1.7 m/s2 using a wet sump. We have been discussing the solutions that they have come up with and the issues that they have had. As I get more information I will pass it along.
What has been really positive is as I have waded through the BS the direction I have taken is pretty much inline with Saker has been successful doing.
http://sakersportscars.com/?lang=en

Cool looking cars. Please tell us more about their wet sump solution!

[Mitch Wright]

They are a good looking car's.

Gerrit will be sending me some photo's. From the discription he has given they have found an effective method to baffle the sump along with adding some capacity. They are also using a catch can or AOS that drains back to the engine.
Once i have more details I will pass them along. I think the path I have started down is similar what I want to see is what Sakar is doing with the baffles in the pan.

[RetroRacing]

We have a saker in our stable, check out our website for some pics, or let me know what pics you want. Wet sump, trick baffled pan with lots of trap doors, putting in paddle shift now due to second blown engine due to missed shift
Should be back on track this year, owner has way too much money invested in custom stuff not to see some track time soon
If you guys are interested, I'll put together a more detailed post
Www.retroreacingteam.com

[Scargo]

I am moving comments from Chad Plavan's thread to here at the suggestion of Sgt.Gator., starting with this comment of his (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?11129-Plavan-s-818R-Build-Thread&p=223758&viewfull=1#post223758), copied to below. He showed this Cosworth setup.http://speed.academy/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/SEMA-show-2014-parts-101.jpg
"I'm betting on the underdrive pulley slowing down the DS pump.
Here's a great pic of the Cosworth system stripped down to the bare essentials at SEMA 2014. Note how small the drive mandrel is in relation to the crank pulley behind it, and how large the DS pump pulley is. Now consider that the Element Tuning DS pump is being driven by the stock crank pulley, and even with the underdrive pulley Chad and I both installed, it's no where near the reduction that Cosworth mandrel is giving. But we both have cured the problem with the moderately underdriven pulley. Makes me want to fabricate an even smaller crank pulley or a larger DS drive pulley."
In response I said:
That's an interesting theory. Did you just change that one thing (drive pulley downsized) and that resulted in the lower oil temps?
In theory, you have been over-scavenging the engine? Is this where aeration is suspected to be the culprit in overheating or something else?
Was vacuum on the case ever measured when closed? I've read that three or four scavenging stages may be needed to pull close to 10 inches*. Again, wouldn't this depend on whose pumps and how fast are they are driven?
What scavenging pumps are in the Cosworth two-stage DS scavenging system Vs Element Tuning's two-stage which uses Aviad scavenging pumps? Are we comparing apples to apples volume-wise and design-wise? Does ET leave you to run whatever oil pump you want?
From Cosworth:


20009093
Subaru 2008+ STI (EJ25) Blueprinted Oil Pump with high pressure mod .& install kit (11mm Rotor)





20001185
Subaru (EJ20/EJ25) High Volume/Pressure Blueprinted Oil Pump & install kit (12mm Rotor)




You don't get an oil pump with the Cosworth or ET system either, so Cosworth offers those two... (I don't see anyone suggesting a 10mm pump).
Anyone know what their systems are capable of or are actually delivering Vs the chart data in my post above on the Subaru pumps? *Aviad looks to offer pumps that do from .6" to 2" Hg. Again at what speed and what volume?

I wish I had more answers instead of questions. There are variables, but one would think this is not rocket science.
To which Sgt.Gator replied: "Like Chad, for the most part I changed more than one thing at a time. It's all detailed over in the other thread.
I don't know if "overscavenging" is the correct term. Maybe spinning the the DS pump too fast causes it to suck up too much air when there's not enough oil in the pan; maybe spinning it too fast causes the DS pump to cavitate. (John at Aviad pumps says you can spin them at 15,000 rpm before cavitation happens though.)
Yes I've measured vacuum in my sealed-closed system. Yes I pull plenty of vacuum. It's all documented in the R forum thread. The people who are writing that you need 4 scavenge pumps to pull vacuum either have never done it and are speculating, or they have done it on loosely built high HP blocks with very high turbo boost/blowby and are correct, they couldn't get enough seal to create a vacuum. But since Cosworth builds very high HP loose built long block racing engines and only use a two stage scavenge that creates enough vacuum that they include a relief regulator, I think it's more likely those writers never tried it!
I have no data comparing the pump specs between Aviad and Cosworth. If you can find that info it would good to know.
The Cosworth oil pumps in your post are intended for high HP all forged loose tolerance race built Dual AVCS engines, like their $15,000 longblocks. In my case I run a stock OEM shortblock with much tighter tolerances, single AVCS heads, so I use the oem 10mm pump."

I kinda got involved in the reason behind the oil overheating issue, and why, when I posted this:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by apexanimal http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?p=223689#post223689)
i'm inclined to think that it was the 11cm oil pump... i've read too many posts about the issues with running them on engines that aren't setup for them from factory...



"I'd like to see something documenting this. I've heard just the opposite for a built motor.
It's an 11mm pump, not 11cm.
There seems to be a feeling among some that a 12mm pump is too much, though it might be appropriate for some applications where clearances, oil viscosity and many other items are set up for it.
Also, a DAVCS motor that diverts some oil to the second set of cam actuators, over an AVCS motor (or a non-AVCS motor) could use some additional flow, or a motor with external plumbing, reservoir, filter, thermostat, etc. would have its flow impeded and might could use the extra pressure to achieve the same flow.
This is from Jeff Sponaugle (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/member.php?10381-sponaugle) of PDXTuning.com (http://pdxtuning.com/), who is on here and building an 818 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14139-Sponaugle-s-H6-EZ30R-818S). This is from 2007. Perhaps Jeff can comment on this, especially since we are 8+ years down the road?
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49546&d=1444513747&thumb=1 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49546&d=1452473929)
Note that there is no oil viscosity or temperature referenced for this chart.
Also note that the data stops at 6000 RPM. What happens when you turn 7, 8 or even 9K? It might be extrapolated to some degree of accuracy.
Another thing is that many custom engine builders of note modify the passages and galleys in the case as well as porting the oil pump and changing the relief pressure shims and not going exactly by the book when it comes to bearing clearances. Often the mains are not identically clearanced."

Now, I'd like to pick back up this conversation for discussion by saying that I don't find all the answers here, in this thread. I don't know what the specs are for the Aviad pumps or the Cosworth pumps. I don't know what the drive ratio is that Element Tuning or Cosworth use. If the pump spinning too fast causes the overheating, then why?
I hope that I can learn enough that I have confidence when I go to make my DS purchase. As it is, I don't feel like I know what to ask for when it comes to the capabilities of the pumps. I don't know what Aviad pumps are in the ET kit. Are they the ones with internal regulation? I plan on turning 8.5~9K RPM. How will this affect my decisions about pumps?

[killerbmotorsport]

I find it a little humorous that most builders like Killer Bee, say you must have multiple scavenge pumps to be able to handle all the positive blow by pressure because there is too much positive pressure for the Element Tuning and Cosworth pumps to keep up. And now ARE is saying to vent the engine block because you will create too MUCH negative pressure!
Obviously dry sumps on Subarus is still an Art and not a Science!

Sgt, re-read what I wrote... or I can save you a few steps... Two scavenge pumps isn't enough to create significant vacuum and may not be enough to overcome positive pressure. This is a generalized statement. With an OEM block I'm not surprised you're seeing decent results, but with a built engine with larger P/W clearances, bigger ring-end gaps, and pushing more power (blow-by gasses) and RPMs you'll not find the results to be as positive. Whereas a WS system with turbo provided vacuum will still pull >2" of vacuum on the built engine setup.


One of my next searches will be to see if there is a better piston ring combo for DS. I'm going to start with calling Total Seal. Some research has indicated that that's the case.
I'm certainly hoping for discussion and debate, especially from those with experience, and stand to be corrected, as 98% of this is "from the internet".

Like many aspects of an engine 'build', the ring packs should be custom tailored to the application. With vacuum or piston porting (or both) you can run lower tension rings giving the benefit of less friction and wear. Total seal will probably push you in a certain direction as their gap-less product does not lend itself well to porting. My guess is you're going to contact more than one ring manufacturer to get a well rounded education on ring selection :)



Now, I'd like to pick back up this conversation for discussion by saying that I don't find all the answers here, in this thread. I don't know what the specs are for the Aviad pumps or the Cosworth pumps. I don't know what the drive ratio is that Element Tuning or Cosworth use. If the pump spinning too fast causes the overheating, then why?
I hope that I can learn enough that I have confidence when I go to make my DS purchase. As it is, I don't feel like I know what to ask for when it comes to the capabilities of the pumps. I don't know what Aviad pumps are in the ET kit. Are they the ones with internal regulation? I plan on turning 8.5~9K RPM. How will this affect my decisions about pumps?[/COLOR]

Same holds true here. You're going to have to make some calls and pester a few people until you make your way to the people that can give you the specs, not just tell you why their stuff is great. As you filter through the process, the product(s) or process that fits your needs (or doesn't) will become more clear. And after all that is said and done... like sgt experienced... there are no absolutes in custom engine setups. You may likely need to 'dial-in' your final choice for optimum performance.

[Scargo]

One thing would be nice to get advice on, if anyone has it, is the dry sump pump drive ratio. I feel I'm getting into the weeds again since there are many manufacturers. Still, the oil pressure and scavenging/suction pumps must be driven together (normally).
I am reading that most oil pumps are driven at about half crankshaft speed, ranging from 45 to 57 percent of crank speed. The slower the pump can be turned to produce a given rate of flow, the more efficiently it operates and the less horsepower it consumes. Mick the Ginge was running a Peterson setup at 56.25%. I believe he was running something like 8K RPMs.

[Sgt.Gator]

Scargo, The Element Tuning and Cosworth systems are both scavenge only. The engine oil pressure side is still done by the oem oil pump. If you want to go with the DS system providing engine oil pressure that adds a lot more to the equation.

[Sgt.Gator]

My Aviaid DS pump has developed a knock in it. It's probably my fault, I may have tightened the "fan" belt too tight and now the bearing is gone or the shaft has a wobble. I'm going to remove it from the LGT and go back to a Killer Bee wet sump, I have a spare KB pan from a Spec B I bought last year. My LGT Wagon rarely get's over 1.4 Gs so I'm not as concerned as I would be with an 818. If I were to use this system again I would tighten the belt just barely tight enough to not get slippage. That would take a day of testing at the track because the system has to be really hot to get it set right. My bad.

Another reason is there is no place to mount the DS tank in the engine compartment of a Legacy. Having it next to me in the passenger seat area was brutal on a summer day. It radiates heat like having an oven blowing on me. In a WRX/STI you could put it in the trunk and wall off the heat, in a wagon I'd have to build an enclosure then hook a powered vent system to blow the hot air out of the interior. Too much to deal with!

Having been down the DS road what I would do differently:

I would NOT use a system that uses an oem style serpentine belt off an oem style crank pulley. The OEM crank pulley is too large to run the DS pump at the desired 50% of crank speed.

I would use the Cosworth if it's still available, otherwise Aviaid, ARE, or Dailey that are entire systems designed for a Subaru that use a belt drive with teeth. They all use a small mandrel off the crank to turn the DS pump at the correct speed. The Cosworth has the advantage of being specifically designed to fit the Subaru engine. There are several small things that at first I didn't appreciate when I was comparing the systems, but now looking back those little things would have made the installation and maintenance easier.

[Scargo]

Sorry to hear about the problems but so appreciate you sharing. The Dailey pumps are driven off a toothed idle sprocket, not the crank. Still haven't pulled the trigger on a DS system but still want Dailey's.
Fairly soon I will be trying out my new custom setup in my STi track car. I ported, matched, radiused and smoothed everything related to the oiling system, including galleries, pump and the feed to the filter area. I blocked my 12mm pump (with deep back plate) from bypassing and am using an external Peterson bypass valve at the back of the right gallery. Through the Peterson valve it feeds my Accusump and the bypass oil goes into the oil fill tube. The rest of my stuff is KillerB.
The Dailey DS system runs off the toothed idler pulley next to the water pump.
5370353704

[Mulry]

Downsides of the Dailey system: very spendy and requires a custom set of headers. That said, I checked it out at PRI & it is a very nice piece of kit.

[Sgt.Gator]

I decided to give my dry sump one more shot. John at Aviaid sent me a new pump, this time with a larger 4.5" pulley from Jones Racing (The Element Tuning system comes with a 4" ARE pulley). John also sells a 5", 5.5"., and 6" but didn't have them in stock and I needed it right away for racing this coming weekend. I'm sending my old pump back to be rebuilt by him ($80 plus parts). I'll order a 5.5" pulley to try too.
Between the larger pump pulley and the underdrive crank pulley at least the pump will be spinning slightly slower than crank speed.

Not 818 related but I think I found a way to reduce the heat from the tank in my Legacy by mounting the tank halfway thru the floorboard behind the driver where the OEM fuel pump inspection plate is. I've ordered the parts and will be doing that mod after the races next weekend.

The DS learning goes on !

[Sgt.Gator]

I sold the LGT race car after I blew the engine <again a Pacific Raceways>. This time I'm 99% sure it wasn't an oiling issue but I won't know for sure for awhile because a friend bought the car from me 15 minutes after the engine blew! I won't know what happened for sure until he tears it down and that could be a long time from now.

I immediately bought a 2005 STI race car that another friend has been racing for a few years and now is moving to Spec E46. For that car and/or a 818R I bought possibly the last new Cosworth DS system in the US. I have confirmed with Cosworth that it has been discontinued.

The Cosworth parts are awesome. They are machined beautifully. The engineering total package is clearly several steps above the other Subaru DS systems I've examined. Too bad they aren't making them anymore.
I'm looking at taking the best features of all these systems and combining them into a system that will work for 818s, BRZs, and WRX/STI. I'll keep ya'll informed as prototypes become available for testing. Ultimately I want to build a 818R with an NA FA20 using WRX case halves and a DS. But first up will be the EJ257.

One question for the 818: How much space is their between the face of the crank pulley and the firewall or frame pieces? Some of these systems poke out the front of the engine further than the stock crank pulley. Thanks.

[Scargo]

How serious was the blown engine and what do you think happened? What were the engine's specs?
It will be very interesting to see what you do with the Cosworth DS system. Would love to see an actual installation and details.

[Sgt.Gator]

How serious was the blown engine and what do you think happened? What were the engine's specs?
It will be very interesting to see what you do with the Cosworth DS system. Would love to see an actual installation and details.

Towed back to Paddock. try to turn engine over to hear what may be wrong:
Wife: "Honey, you're engine sounds like it has rocks in it."
Yes it does. And many of the rocks seem to banging around under the timing covers. I suspect that when the engine was re-built last year the Subaru tech probably didn't put Loctite on the timing belt tensioner bolt. Gates has posted an alert that you must use Loctitie on that bolt or it might back out. They even include loctitie in the kits now.
The factory service manual does NOT call for using loctitie on that bolt, so I can't blame the factory tech for following the FSM. And unfortunantely I didn't know about this alert until i was rebuilding the engine myself in my Spec B several months later. Personally I think you should use Loctitie on every bolt in the timing belt sysytem.
Here's the PDF: https://www.gates.com/~/media/files/gates/automotive/resources/tech-tips-and-tsbs/subaru_loctite.pdf

[Sgt.Gator]

Check out this video: Subaru Isle of Man Challenge Car: Tech Specs with Mark Higgins

https://youtu.be/WuHuFaX5q4k

There's several interesting things they've done to the engine.

The TMIC has been replaced with a panel filter to feed the intake to the turbo. I like that idea, a true cold air intake. And it doesn't cause backflow/air stagnation for the radiator because all the air is going into the engine to be consumed, not pressurizing the engine compartment. Very Cool.

Power Steering cooler.

Looks like an Accusump on the pass fender panel.

IAT sensor in the cold side piping, but very far forward? Lots of other sensors around the engine bay.

Is that a fuel swirl pot mounted in the normal alternator space? Usually the swirl pot is not in the hot engine compartment but in this application it may not matter. have to think on this.

I can't figure out what looks like all the ignition wires on the two blocks on top of the engine?

And the cylinder head venting is interesting.

I'd love to spend 30 minutes up close examining what they've done.

56139561405614156142

[EODTech87]

All the "ignition wires" appears to be the engine wiring harness but they are using Mil-Spec connectors to allow them to easily change out components without having to dig through a wiring harness.

[Scargo]

Did they say that it is dry-sumped?
I don't know what to make of the reservoir/tank next to the alternator, but I doubt it is related to fuel.
Not much stock left with the front end. Possibly aluminum fenders? Note the shock towers. Those look really angled back in the compartment. Caster to the max?
No coolant reservoir up top.
They likely have an EGT thermocouple on all cylinders. I just put one on my #4 cylinder. I moved my tiny alternator over like that but am running two belts; one for PS and one for the alternator. I did mine like that so I could reverse the intake. Slightly curious why they didn't do that. CAI on top is interesting/good.
The Subaru-backed Phoenix car (of 2011?) was not at near the level of sophistication of this car.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Check out this video: Subaru Isle of Man Challenge Car: Tech Specs with Mark Higgins

https://youtu.be/WuHuFaX5q4k

There's several interesting things they've done to the engine.

The TMIC has been replaced with a panel filter to feed the intake to the turbo. I like that idea, a true cold air intake. And it doesn't cause backflow/air stagnation for the radiator because all the air is going into the engine to be consumed, not pressurizing the engine compartment. Very Cool.

Power Steering cooler.

Looks like an Accusump on the pass fender panel.

IAT sensor in the cold side piping, but very far forward? Lots of other sensors around the engine bay.

Is that a fuel swirl pot mounted in the normal alternator space? Usually the swirl pot is not in the hot engine compartment but in this application it may not matter. have to think on this.

I can't figure out what looks like all the ignition wires on the two blocks on top of the engine?

And the cylinder head venting is interesting.

I'd love to spend 30 minutes up close examining what they've done.

56139561405614156142

Here is a couple of better pictures for you to dissect.

56163 56164 56165

[Wayne Presley]

Check out this video: Subaru Isle of Man Challenge Car: Tech Specs with Mark Higgins

https://youtu.be/WuHuFaX5q4k



Looks like an Accusump on the pass fender panel.
?


Are you talking about the shocks remote reservoir

[Scargo]

There's an Accusump there, in blue, with some silver heat shielding on lower, inside. Below the turbo out-pipe to FMIC.
Also note the custom caps on the head vents.
Radiator looks tilted forward at the top.
Funny looking fuel rails that I don't recognize. Power steering pump I don't recognize.
Looks like a lightweight crank pulley.
The radiator tank looks to be custom and behind the intake manifold?

[Sgt.Gator]

Bob Thanks for those pics, they help a lot. Now I see it has a V-Mount setup. A V-Mount is where the FMIC is on top of the radiator, and the radiator is tilted to make room for the FMIC. There's several threads on them on NAsioc. Here's an aftermarket that does it: http://www.processwest.com.au/products/subaru/wrx-sti-my01-07/v-mounted-cooling-system

Scargo I'm looking at that custom tank on the driver side between the intake and firewall.....you may be right, it's a probably coolant reservoir for filling and burping the V-Mount radiator. Or it may be an oil reservoir/fill. The standard oil fill tube is gone and has a delete plate in it's spot. They have to put oil in somewhere.

[Scargo]

Since we're a little off topic here I want to show you what I will have dyno'd when I return from the cabin. Note, coolant reservoir is in the rear!
I wonder what kind of power their engine was making and RPMs it was capable of? I am aiming for 525 on 105 octane or 430 at the wheels and road-racing reliable 8K. Stock displacement DAVCS engine. Everything short of dry-sump. External oil pressure regulator.
56226

[Samiam1017]

Since we're a little off topic here I want to show you what I will have dyno'd when I return from the cabin. Note, coolant reservoir is in the rear!
I wonder what kind of power their engine was making and RPMs it was capable of? I am aiming for 525 on 105 octane or 430 at the wheels and road-racing reliable 8K. Stock displacement DAVCS engine. Everything short of dry-sump. External oil pressure regulator.
56226
care to share more details on the engine and turbo set up?

[Scargo]

All of what I have done is documented by pictures and notes in my signature link to Shutterfly. I keep a journal at IWSTI (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/.com/forums/gr-members-journals/255053-2008-sti-track-car-journal.html)and it has all the details on what I have built and am doing with my STi track car.
Do I understand correctly that you are in NE Pennsylvania? Will I be racing against you?

[Samiam1017]

yes im from north eastern PA i am not currently building an R, so no onracing against you. i am currently working on other a subaru powered race project that i believe will use parts that will translate to the R so i like to ask a lot of questions.

[Sgt.Gator]

Scargo the Isle of Man 2016 STi is a 2.0L, 8,500 rpm, 600HP. But they tuned it down to 550HP for the record setting run because of cooling problems. Amazingly it ran on 245/18 tires.

[Wayne Presley]

BTW, the "coil pack's" are data hubs or control modules for the ECU

[Sgt.Gator]

It's taken me awhile to realize this is probably an FA20 engine, not an EJ. The Subaru Nurburgring 24 hour 2.0 race engines have been FA since 2014. Can anyone tell the difference with all these mods?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

It's taken me awhile to realize this is probably an FA20 engine, not an EJ. The Subaru Nurburgring 24 hour 2.0 race engines have been FA since 2014. Can anyone tell the difference with all these mods?

Take a look at these pictures.

http://www.subaruwrcspares.com/10.html

[walt555]

I decided to give my dry sump one more shot. John at Aviaid sent me a new pump, this time with a larger 4.5" pulley from Jones Racing (The Element Tuning system comes with a 4" ARE pulley). John also sells a 5", 5.5"., and 6" but didn't have them in stock and I needed it right away for racing this coming weekend. I'm sending my old pump back to be rebuilt by him ($80 plus parts). I'll order a 5.5" pulley to try too.
Between the larger pump pulley and the underdrive crank pulley at least the pump will be spinning slightly slower than crank speed.

Not 818 related but I think I found a way to reduce the heat from the tank in my Legacy by mounting the tank halfway thru the floorboard behind the driver where the OEM fuel pump inspection plate is. I've ordered the parts and will be doing that mod after the races next weekend.

The DS learning goes on !

Would it be possible to retrofit the Element DS kit with the belt drive system from Dailey DS kit?

[Sgt.Gator]

Take a look at these pictures.

http://www.subaruwrcspares.com/10.html

That helped a lot! I forgot about that website , thanks!
This helped too: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1650384


Would it be possible to retrofit the Element DS kit with the belt drive system from Dailey DS kit?
I Don't know.
I'm currently looking at making a mandrel and pump mount much like the Cosworth one that would work with the Aviad Pump. Cosworth has officially stopped making their Subaru Dry Sump system.

[FFRSpec72]

That helped a lot! I forgot about that website , thanks!
This helped too: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1650384


I Don't know.
I'm currently looking at making a mandrel and pump mount much like the Cosworth one that would work with the Aviad Pump. Cosworth has officially stopped making their Subaru Dry Sump system.

So Cosworth either determined that the dry sumps don't work or not enough volume to keep producing them, they are still making the baffle and pan though. It could be that Subaru engines are just not acceptable/designed for road racing no matter what

[Sgt.Gator]

So Cosworth either determined that the dry sumps don't work or not enough volume to keep producing them, they are still making the baffle and pan though. It could be that Subaru engines are just not acceptable/designed for road racing no matter what

They are generally getting out of supporting Subaru EJ engines period. They've taken all their Subaru EJ heads and longblocks off their website and the retailers that still have one or two in stock are selling them off. They still sell their pistons, rods, and valves because there is a good market for them. But most of the stuff I see now is for the FA engine in Staged Performance Packages.

The dry sump system was a very small market TAM and they were the most expensive option. I think I bought the last new Cosworth DS system available in north America. I have to say in looking at the workmanship/quality of the pieces I see why it is so expensive. Very awesome stuff.
But there's some machining processes they did that aren't necessary for function that can be eliminated that would reduce the cost of the parts. For instance they machined away aluminum in places that saved maybe a couple of grams but added a lot to the cost. The kind of stuff F1 racecars do, but makes the part out of reach for us.
I'm in the process of examining all the DS systems available for the Subaru EJ then coming up with my own design and limited run on parts. I have a local engineer helping me with it. We should have all the parts available by next spring. Maybe some of them this fall.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

To the engine specialist.

For track days I am running a 2 quart accusump to prevent oil starvation during high G corners.
I would like suggestion on which valve to run on a 2.5L turbo 818.

Here are some options.
1. Manual valve, Stay open all the time on track.

2. electric valve with no pressure switch. Opens with ignition switch.

3.electric valve with 25 PSI switch. Opens valve if engine pressure is below 25 psi and ignition is on.
Tank fills anytime engine pressure is greater then tank pressure.

4.electric valve with 40 PSI switch. Opens valve if engine pressure is below 40 psi and ignition is on.
Tank fills anytime engine pressure is greater then tank pressure.

5.electric valve with 60 PSI switch. Opens valve if engine pressure is below 60 psi and ignition is on.
Tank fills anytime engine pressure is greater then tank pressure.

Please post your opinion with the reasoning behind your selection.

If you agree with someone previous post. Please post "I agree with "screen name"

Here is info on how an accusump works.
http://www.accusump.com/accusump_tech.html


Thanks in advance.
Bob

[Scargo]

The reason for my opinions is only that I have not had an engine failure and have not had issues with oil pressure while on the track. In general, I run competitive ST2 lap times and have run well over 50 hours without issue in my STi.
1. I am doing everything manually. Regardless of how you set it up, you want the Accusump open to the engine's oiling system whenever the engine is running. I don't want to have the delay of a valve opening or the chance it may not open when I really need the intervention of the Accusump's oil.
I open the valve just before cranking and (hopefully remember to) shut the valve after a quick blip of the throttle to raise the oil pressure before I shut off the engine. When I have forgotten to close the valve and shut off the engine it has not seemed to be a problem. I do have all the KB stuff: pan, windage plate, pickup. I also have a remote oil filter and a large Setrab cooler. In my previous motors I have run the 11mm pump with one added shim.
With my new Alpha motor I am trying something revolutionary. I will brag when and if it works. I will still be using the Accusump.

[Mitch Wright]

I agree with Scargo, it has been a lot of years since I driven a car with an Accusump and it was always manual for the reasons stated above.

[Sgt.Gator]

Scargo is your Accusump valve in the driver's compartment?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Thank Scargo and Mitch for the advice.
When I lost my engine a few weeks ago I was running a manual valve on a 2 quart Accusump.

This was the situation.
100k miles on the 04FXT 2.5L engine.
Running oem power and tune. 195whp
We were beating the sh*t out of the car in 1/2 session with 1 hour rest between.
95 deg ambient.
Engine bit the dust on last lap of a 30 minute session.
Data log showed coolant never over 200.
OEM oil filter and warmer/heater.
No oil temp or pressure gauges.
it didn't look like we even got an oil idiot light in the video.
5w40 Rotella T6 oil.
Check oil level at end of session, with full accusump. it was good.

The theory on the new style valves is that the 2 qts oil could be sitting in the tank at 85 psi waiting to shoot out if needed.
With the open valve and at lower rpm you may only have 1 qt at 30-40 psi in the tank when you need it.


Adding external cooler/filter and gauges before this weekend track day at Mitch's track.

I hope no cooler was the root cause, I would hate to waste another engine.

My valve is under the rear hatch. Open for track day weekends, closed for street commuting.
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Bob can you find a way to datalog oil pressures? A gauge won't be nearly as good. Temp yes because it doesn't swing like crazy, but pressures fly around fast.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob can you find a way to datalog oil pressures? A gauge won't be nearly as good. Temp yes because it doesn't swing like crazy, but pressures fly around fast.

Yes, I going to bring temp and pressure into my TGV sensor inputs. Hopefully I can get it working by this weekend. The replacement motor is still sitting on the floor. I decided to take Thursday and Friday off work to make sure we make it to the track.
Bob

[STiPWRD]

Yes, I going to bring temp and pressure into my TGV sensor inputs. Hopefully I can get it working by this weekend. The replacement motor is still sitting on the floor. I decided to take Thursday and Friday off work to make sure we make it to the track.
Bob
Bob, what's your approach to logging oil temp? I rigged up the oil pressure sensor you posted a while back but am still trying to figure out what to do about the oil temp. I have the prosport gauge and sensor, which as far as I can tell is a 2.5kOhm thermistor. I'm thinking of connecting this thermistor directly to the gas tank temp sensor wire and recalibrating the temp curve in rom raider logger. Is your plan to do thermocouple to 0-5V conversion board?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, what's your approach to logging oil temp? I rigged up the oil pressure sensor you posted a while back but am still trying to figure out what to do about the oil temp. I have the prosport gauge and sensor, which as far as I can tell is a 2.5kOhm thermistor. I'm thinking of connecting this thermistor directly to the gas tank temp sensor wire and recalibrating the temp curve in rom raider logger. Is your plan to do thermocouple to 0-5V conversion board?

I'll let you know tomorrow. I'm going to try a thermistor type sensor with a voltage divider resistor. connect it to the TGV sensor plug. The trick will be playing with the table to make it read out in degrees F.
Bob

[STiPWRD]

I'll let you know tomorrow. I'm going to try a thermistor type sensor with a voltage divider resistor. connect it to the TGV sensor plug. The trick will be playing with the table to make it read out in degrees F.
Bob
Bob, can you check my math?

Vo = (R*Vcc)/(R+R_ref)

where: Vo is the output voltage, Vcc is 5V, R is the thermistor value, and R_ref is the fixed resistor value for tuning the curve. For a 2.5kOhm thermistor and a 1kOhm fixed resistor, I'm getting this type of response curve:
56829

For R_ref = 400 ohms, I get:
56830

[RetroRacing]

We are using an IQ3, oil pressure is 90psi when warm, waiting for oil temp to log but with the 20 row cooler, pretty sure we will be ok. Love a digital dash........

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, can you check my math?

Vo = (R*Vcc)/(R+R_ref)

where: Vo is the output voltage, Vcc is 5V, R is the thermistor value, and R_ref is the fixed resistor value for tuning the curve. For a 2.5kOhm thermistor and a 1kOhm fixed resistor, I'm getting this type of response curve:
56829

For R_ref = 400 ohms, I get:
56830

Your graphs looks correct.
Is there a table in the ECU for the TGV so the SSM will spit out temperature in degrees C or F?

[STiPWRD]

Your graphs looks correct.
Is there a table in the ECU for the TGV so the SSM will spit out temperature in degrees C or F?
I've looked at the definitions file for rom raider logger and the ecu raw value for TGV data is V*50. So the logger must divide this raw value by 50 to show the true TGV voltage. I don't know if this expression can be changed directly in the ecu but it can be changed in the logger by modifying the definitions file (.xml). You'd need to know the function of temperature vs voltage for whatever sensor you're using.

For instance, the raw value expression for the fuel temp sensor is:
For degrees F ==> "32+9*(x-40)/5"
For degrees C ==> "x-40"
where x is the ecu raw value.

One thing I'm going to try is connecting the thermistor that came with my prosport oil temp gauge to the gas temp signal wire and record the raw ecu value when dipping that thermistor in a cup of water at different temperatures. This should give me a calibration curve that I can update in the logger definition file. I'm not sure how linear that curve will be as thermistors tend to follow:
1/T = 1/To + (1/B)*ln(R/Ro)

[Sgt.Gator]

Is anyone here aware of an 818 with a mandrel pulley coming off the crank pulley and fitting in an 818? I'm sure it's a very close fitment, trying to figure out if it will clear the frame and firewall.
A couple of shots of a DS pump using the mandrel:
5773357734

The more I look at them the more I think they won't fit!

[Mulry]

This is what we are going to do. We have test fitted the engine in the chassis and it appears that the crank mandrel will miss the structure of the frame/firewall. We are working on custom fabrication of the DS pump mount so that we know our center-center distance before ordering the mandrel for the crank and the pulleys for the pump and the crank mandrel.

The real trick in your first photo is that the line routing out of the bottom of the DS pump would wrap around the outside of the exhaust headers, which might do very bad things to those oil lines. We've mocked up the routing around the rear of the engine to avoid that situation, but no final conclusions yet.

[Sgt.Gator]

This is what we are going to do. We have test fitted the engine in the chassis and it appears that the crank mandrel will miss the structure of the frame/firewall. We are working on custom fabrication of the DS pump mount so that we know our center-center distance before ordering the mandrel for the crank and the pulleys for the pump and the crank mandrel.

The real trick in your first photo is that the line routing out of the bottom of the DS pump would wrap around the outside of the exhaust headers, which might do very bad things to those oil lines. We've mocked up the routing around the rear of the engine to avoid that situation, but no final conclusions yet.

Thanks, I'm looking forward to seeing your fitment pic.
I routed the lines as you see in the pic on my LGT, it was no problem. Obviously not as tight as the pic, and I put firesleeve on them. It's pretty easy to find a way to pull them a few inches away from the headers. To go straight back over the back might be possible in a 818, much harder in a LGT or STI.

[RetroRacing]

Gentlemen, the jury is in, you must have a dry sump if you are pulling these kind of g's.

[Scargo]

Gentlemen, the jury is in, you must have a dry sump if you are pulling these kind of g's. And what would that G limit be? What have the R's been capable of? A deep KB pan and Accusump setup has failed (when there were no oil heat issues)? I know a lot of questions but I've been out of touch and can't keep up with failures and DS/non-DS successes.

[Mulry]

It wouldn't surprise me if Retro had some logged data to answer this precisely (and Plavan probably does too), but I suspect that you would hit this limit even on 200 treadwear tires. It seems like there are a lot more DS failures than non-DS successes. There's a reason that every competition boxer engine gets dry sumped, and it's not because teams like spending extra money and complexity on dry sump systems.

[C.Plavan]

IIRC I was pulling 1.5G+

I would not even track a 818S on street tires without a drysump.

Dry Sump failures on 818R's- There only one I can think of (Brando). However, he did not have any oil temp, oil pressure, or any other gauges. He also did not have an external oil cooler.

I remember he blew up a motor without the drysump after 1.5 track days, then had the motor rebuilt and the engine builder REUSED the factory oil/water heat exchanger with all those metal bits inside. Then quickly blew up that motor.....and the tune was suspect and possible turbo hose failure (Boost controller)

Save your money and ADD a drysump..... It's not going to hurt as much as blowing motors. If you think a deep pan, an AOS or Killer B valve is going to save you, Just start throwing money away or paypal me. I'll put the money to better use! :)

My car has over 20 track days now including the new owner. Still working great (knock on wood). Also, do not use the 11mm oil pump- the 10mm oil pump fixed my oil heating issues. It bypassed the whole time just circulating the oil inside the motor. See oil pump flow chart...
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=49546&d=1452473929

http://www.relatably.com/m/img/do-it-memes/537cbcb6d24c4b67f4abf0da57d76fed6a7578f0ba5332d088 b86d6a3f152224.jpg

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad I think the only note to make about the oil pumps is to use the 10mm for a stock-oem block, especially on a SAVCS oem motor. A forged built block may need an 11 or 12 mm. On my new forged block from Rallispec they said the min pump is the 11 mm and the 12mm is preferred. I went full monty with the Cosworth 12mm pump. So if your builder specs an 11 or 12 I think you should follow their guidance.

[C.Plavan]

Chad I think the only note to make about the oil pumps is to use the 10mm for a stock-oem block, especially on a SAVCS oem motor. A forged built block may need an 11 or 12 mm. On my new forged block from Rallispec they said the min pump is the 11 mm and the 12mm is preferred. I went full monty with the Cosworth 12mm pump. So if your builder specs an 11 or 12 I think you should follow their guidance.

Mine was a non-OEM built motor. SAVCS yes

[RetroRacing]

We were running slicks, 235 front, 265 rear. Our logger was not working, but we know what the issue was. Blow by was stupid, even with the Grimmspeed AOS, killer b pan and pickup, we went down a quart and Pooched the engine after maybe 40min of track time.

Oil temps are not an issue with the 11mm pump from Rally sport, 95psi pretty much all of the time as far as I could see, with oil temps under 190 with the external cooler. Its all about the oil control, which the dry sump seems to take care of.

[Zach34]

We were running slicks, 235 front, 265 rear. Our logger was not working, but we know what the issue was. Blow by was stupid, even with the Grimmspeed AOS, killer b pan and pickup, we went down a quart and Pooched the engine after maybe 40min of track time.

Oil temps are not an issue with the 11mm pump from Rally sport, 95psi pretty much all of the time as far as I could see, with oil temps under 190 with the external cooler. Its all about the oil control, which the dry sump seems to take care of.

So, for those of us who are a little slower to the barn - why did you have so much blow-by and how did that cause the engine to fail?

[RetroRacing]

It blew out a quart of oil, which I guess is enough to starve the pickup in even a Killer Bee pan.

[Scargo]

Blowby is usually a ring issue. Extreme boost will cause more blowby and the oil sloshing and crank/rod whipping possible when racing exacerbates the oil mist. Hoses too small going to the AOS will increase air velocity and move more oil mist out of the crankcase.
I have never been a fan of capturing and holding the oil; especially in a track car. I feel it should be allowed to return to the crankcase. This, after I blew a stockish, 2008 STi motor. I was at the track and the AOS filled and overflowed back into the intake, causing detonation and broken pistons. After replumbing, I've run the same 500 HP motor for three years on the track with the AOS dumping oil back into the engine through the PCV hole. Granted, my STi cannot generate the G's a well-prepared 818R can but it was doing competitive ST2 laps.

[Scargo]

It blew out a quart of oil, which I guess is enough to starve the pickup in even a Killer Bee pan.
Per my comment, where did the quart of oil go? Did it overflow the tank and where does the vent go? I cannot imaging a quart causing starvation but perhaps on a long sweeping turn it could (without an Accusump). I believe it is common practice to slightly overfill when racing a Subie.

[RetroRacing]

We did overfill a bit, we were running the Grimmspeed oil cap style AOS that dumps it back into the pan, but the amount of oil going into the intake was too much, so we changed it to a dump can, for one session. We are running 1lb Under stock boost.

[JeromeS13]

We did overfill a bit, we were running the Grimmspeed oil cap style AOS that dumps it back into the pan, but the amount of oil going into the intake was too much, so we changed it to a dump can, for one session. We are running 1lb Under stock boost.

I've never heard of anyone with success using the Grimmspeed AOS on the track.

[Sgt.Gator]

I've never heard of anyone with success using the Grimmspeed AOS on the track.

+1 on that.

[killerbmotorsport]

It blew out a quart of oil, which I guess is enough to starve the pickup in even a Killer Bee pan.

Oil level in the pan drops when the engine is running. Compound that with corner loads and the outside facing head starts to hold oil as well. This can very simply be simulated on an engine stand by tipping the engine. You can see oil begin to pool into the lower (outside facing) head, and the sump level drop. Remove an additional quart and that level gets dangerously low. At those forces the balance and vent lines are also going to be holding oil as well, further reducing the level in the sump.

The OEM STi get flakey ~1.2Gs and the older flat bottom pans are even worse. The 818 easily produces forces well above that.

I'd still like to see datalogs regarding our setup (pan/pickup/baffle and oil control valve) with a properly setup A/O separator showing starvation.

Agree with Scargo, A/O separator is the way to go on these engines vs storing oil in a can.

[mikeb75]

+1 on that.
+2, bad things happened.

[Mitch Wright]

Had a DS ordered a while back, made a U turn and continued to research running a wet sump. I guess I have just dug my heals in and am determined to run my wet sump successfully. Read all I can find and talked to all that would e-mail or pick up the phone from North America, Europe and Japan. I am logging, pressures, temps and g loads so I will find out soon.
I will take all the I told you so's if I am not successful but I am going forward with confidence.

[Scargo]

I feel the key to my 490 CHP/395 WHP engine longevity, in my ST2 level STi... is all the Killer B parts, the Accusump, the large oil cooler, large, external oil filter and simple A/OS that drains back. Almost nine quarts of oil. According to others, the two quart Accusump can do a few seconds of supplemental oil supply. It seems like mine takes a bit longer to bleed down. It should come into play as a transition to it as the pressure drops rather than a sudden dump. I have not been on a track that exceeds 11 seconds of sustained G's. It survived that track (NJMP Lightning) many times. Lightning is not very banked, but it has also survived multiple days at NHMP, Watkins Glen, Palmer and Thompson (all in the N-E). I don't have data-logging but I'm sure other ST2 cars have data that can be found. John George comes to mind.
Please don't get the idea that I am saying positively that you can get by without a DS on a high G 818R. DS's the route I plan to take.

[FFRSpec72]

Granted my car was not running to it's fullest but I did feel the potential of the car in the corners. I currently have a wet sump much like Mitch (with Killer-B and Cosworth components). I have ordered a Elements Tuning DS after feeling the car and also what happened to retroracing. I really did not want to have to do this and mainly doing this as insurance. My plan is to keep the oil cooler setup, run the stock oil pump and pulley system and just add the DS. I have a AOS and Killer-B Oil Control Valve and not sure what I will do there. The center drive 818 is running the element tuning DS but also is running a AOS due to oil in the throttle body.

[RetroRacing]

I'm not saying that you could make it work with the full KB setup and accusump for an hour, or maybe even two, but I have doubts about 25 hours of 2g corners. Our system was supposed to empty into the oil fill, but the shear volume of oil was to much for it to handle.
Our second engine is back into the car awaiting the dry sump for the end of this week. We had to also do some serious thermal control under the hood, we melted the timing belt cover even though we have the full exhaust wrapped.....

[Wayne Presley]

. We had to also do some serious thermal control under the hood, we melted the timing belt cover even though we have the full exhaust wrapped.....

The Lotus Elise/Exige has NACA ducts in the belly pan to bring cooler air into the engine compartment

[RetroRacing]

We thought about that, but you lose downforce as a result. We are venting the top for now

[Sgt.Gator]

We had to also do some serious thermal control under the hood, we melted the timing belt cover even though we have the full exhaust wrapped.....

Holy Heat Soak Retro!

At least at Thunderhill it should be less than 103 degrees in December....if not snowing.

[Zach34]

we melted the timing belt cover even though we have the full exhaust wrapped.....

:eek: Good heavens..... How the hell do the Porsche turbo motors not melt everything?

[Sgt.Gator]

The center drive 818 is running the element tuning DS but also is running a AOS due to oil in the throttle body.

This makes no sense to me. Every DS system I've seen in a race car eliminates any possibility of oil in the intake because the PCV, hoses, breathers, all that stuff, are gone. In a street car like a Corvette Z06 that comes with a factory dry sump oil in the intake occurs because all that stuff is still hooked up. But in a race car it should be gone.

For my new STI engine I'm considering making a custom hard pipe intake simply because there is no reason to have all the vacuum spigots on a stock or aftermarket intake pipe. Since I'll be running a VTA BPV there is no need for any openings in the intake pipe at all. That eliminates several potential points of failure if there are no caps, plugs, or hoses that can pop off.

I hope to see the centerdrive 818 soon at an event so I can understand why they still have an AOS and oil in the intake tract.

[Scargo]

What Sgt Gator said... I tried to post this earlier from my phone. In a racing application, why would you ever want to pull a vacuum on an A/OS from the intake manifold, when you can vent to atmosphere? Perhaps you could avoid breakage with forged pistons and low boost but performance would suffer if significant oil gets pulled in.

[STiPWRD]

For my new STI engine I'm considering making a custom hard pipe intake simply because there is no reason to have all the vacuum spigots on a stock or aftermarket intake pipe. Since I'll be running a VTA BPV there is no need for any openings in the intake pipe at all. That eliminates several potential points of failure if there are no caps, plugs, or hoses that can pop off.
Doesn't the boost control solenoid need a vacuum reference pre turbo?

[RetroRacing]

The issue, as explained to me by Elements, is that some guys don't just vent the valve covers to the DS tank. Pulling vacuum top and bottom of engine negates the benefit of both. Shouldn't the EGR be closed off and the valve covers be just vented directly to the DS tank to retain vacuum in the block?

[FFRSpec72]

This makes no sense to me. Every DS system I've seen in a race car eliminates any possibility of oil in the intake because the PCV, hoses, breathers, all that stuff, are gone. In a street car like a Corvette Z06 that comes with a factory dry sump oil in the intake occurs because all that stuff is still hooked up. But in a race car it should be gone.

For my new STI engine I'm considering making a custom hard pipe intake simply because there is no reason to have all the vacuum spigots on a stock or aftermarket intake pipe. Since I'll be running a VTA BPV there is no need for any openings in the intake pipe at all. That eliminates several potential points of failure if there are no caps, plugs, or hoses that can pop off.

I hope to see the centerdrive 818 soon at an event so I can understand why they still have an AOS and oil in the intake tract.

My understanding is that the remote oil cooler and filter can be left as it is, the AOS and Killer-B Oil Control Valve can be left as it as these attach to the valve cover vents and the Dry Sump is a stand alone system, so basically you have 3 stand alone systems (1) Oil Cooler/remote Oil Filter (2) Valve cover venting system (AOS and Oil Control Valve) aand (3) Dry sump, pan, pump and tank

[RetroRacing]

gotcha, makes sense.

[Scargo]

My understanding is that the remote oil cooler and filter can be left as it is, the AOS and Killer-B Oil Control Valve can be left as it as these attach to the valve cover vents and the Dry Sump is a stand alone system, so basically you have 3 stand alone systems (1) Oil Cooler/remote Oil Filter (2) Valve cover venting system (AOS and Oil Control Valve) aand (3) Dry sump, pan, pump and tank
Tony, I think you are correct, with caveats. It depends on the Dry Sump setup and it depends on whether you want to utilize the potential vacuum that DS can provide. The DS "system", as I see it, can be all inclusive and would eliminate the need for the A/OS and certainly the KB oil control valve. By having enough pumps or turning two or more pumps fast enough you could create some real vacuum that could help performance, related to ring sealing and reducing oil mist.
Pulling an intake vacuum "up top" is insignificant and counterproductive to a race engine.

I'm in no way an expert on DS (yet). I am running the aforementioned system (in previous posts of this thread) and am breaking in a new engine which has a 12mm oil pump and external pressure relief valve. So far-so good but the STi has yet to make it to the track with this engine and I had to skip my dyno-tune tomorrow because of a small oil leak at one AVCS pulley.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, I think you are correct, with caveats. It depends on the Dry Sump setup and it depends on whether you want to utilize the potential vacuum that DS can provide. The DS "system", as I see it, can be all inclusive and would eliminate the need for the A/OS and certainly the KB oil control valve. By having enough pumps or turning two or more pumps fast enough you could create some real vacuum that could help performance, related to ring sealing and reducing oil mist.
Pulling an intake vacuum "up top" is insignificant and counterproductive to a race engine.

I'm in no way an expert on DS (yet). I am running the aforementioned system (in previous posts of this thread) and am breaking in a new engine which has a 12mm oil pump and external pressure relief valve. So far-so good but the STi has yet to make it to the track with this engine and I had to skip my dyno-tune tomorrow because of a small oil leak at one AVCS pulley.

Vacuum works against the oil pump so you should be trying to have positive pressure to force the oil into the pickup, so I'm not buying the additional vacuum requirement (as scavenge pump should be enough), I might just be real stupid here ...

[Sgt.Gator]

Doesn't the boost control solenoid need a vacuum reference pre turbo?
No, the boost source is a nipple on the turbo itself. That's true of all systems, stock or aftermarket, IWG or EWG. The third port on the BCS can either vent to atmosphere or to the intake. You can download the Grimmspeed instructions here: http://www.grimmspeed.com/content/install_guides/boost_control_solenoid_Subaru_online_version.pdf


The issue, as explained to me by Elements, is that some guys don't just vent the valve covers to the DS tank. Pulling vacuum top and bottom of engine negates the benefit of both. Shouldn't the EGR be closed off and the valve covers be just vented directly to the DS tank to retain vacuum in the block?
I don't know what he means by pulling vacuum top and bottom negates the benefits of both. Race cars have been sealing up their engines to get full vacuum for many years.

If you vent the heads to the DS tank it's an open system. You won't pull much vacuum if at all. Air will come from the vented DS tank down the lines and into the engine to the pan to be scavenged. That was Chad's system. I originally did that because all the internet wisdom was that a two stage scavenge pump couldn't pull vacuum. Therefore <they say> the excess blowby in the block will have no where to go and will pressurize the block. So they vent the heads and the PCV block port to the DS tank. Then I decided to try it with the block all sealed up. I figured if the Cosworth pump could do it why not Aviaid? No vent to atmosphere. I was able to pull 11-12 inches of vacuum at moderate RPMs, which is perfect. Look at the Cosworth instructions I sent you, theirs is exactly the same except they include a vacuum regulator in the oem oil fill hole to provide relief in case the vacuum is too much (not too little).
Either way works, but in a sealed block you get the benefit of ring seal and other benefits due to the vacuum.

Here's the short version of the Cosworth Installation Instructions:
For 2006 and newer vehicles, the air injection pump must be removed following the Subaru factory service manual. The air pump inlet ports at the rear of the cylinder heads must be blocked off. We recommend Cosworth Air Pump Delete Kit (P/N 20004539).
Crankcase Ventilation
Remove the factory positive crankcase ventilation hoses and Y-pipe. The hoses originate from the cam covers and are the front most of the two adjacent hoses on each side. Remove the hoses from the nipples and replace them with the supplied rubber caps. One rubber cap will be needed for each of the two cam covers as well as one for the turbo inlet tube PCV inlet. The rear most hoses are balance hoses and are to remain attached. Remove the oil fill neck tube. Install the PP2355 o-ring on to the oil fill neck adapter fitting and lubricate with clean engine oil. Bolt on the oil fill neck adapter to the LH cam cover using the two 20008296 screws. Torque to 4.7 ft-lb using blue Loctite. Lubricate the o-ring with clean engine oil and install the vacuum regulator into the oil fill neck adapter.

In other words, the engine is totally sealed up, except if the vacuum regulator opens.
In my system I don't cap the front vents, I tee them together then back to the former block PCV opening. That creates a second balance system between the heads and the block. On that line I tee off a vacuum gauge on the dash. It does create a lot more clutter, if you cap the three ports per Cosworth instructions it's a cleaner installation.
Call me if you need help!

Here's a pic from the Cosworth Instructions. Notice no vent lines to the tank from the anything but the scavenge out.

58040


My understanding is that the remote oil cooler and filter can be left as it is, the AOS and Killer-B Oil Control Valve can be left as it as these attach to the valve cover vents and the Dry Sump is a stand alone system, so basically you have 3 stand alone systems (1) Oil Cooler/remote Oil Filter (2) Valve cover venting system (AOS and Oil Control Valve) aand (3) Dry sump, pan, pump and tank

Yes on all three. I just don't know why on #2!! Those are just more places that can cause failures. It's also unclear to me what happens when the DS system is pulling a vacuum on the pan how that will affect the AOS system. The AOS was never intended to work with a DS system, there could be unintended consequences. The AOS expects blow by to be coming out of the block, not air coming into it from the DS creating a vacuum.

[FFRSpec72]

Sgt, Gator, my point about the AOS and Dry Sump is relative to an open system, as you have to vent the blow by some place and seems that the AOS would do a good job and return the oil back to the block.

[Sgt.Gator]

Sgt, Gator, my point about the AOS and Dry Sump is relative to an open system, as you have to vent the blow by some place and seems that the AOS would do a good job and return the oil back to the block.

OK, Open System, let's discuss: You are missing the way it works if you say "you have to vent the blow by some place". The blow by will be sucked up with the oil in the pan and sent to the DS tank along with the oil. Air will take it's place coming in the heads from the line vented to the tank, and the tank has a separate VTA > Catch Can.
When you corner hard and fill the heads with oil, it will back up the breather lines but the only place it has to go is either thru the oem balance lines back into the block, or all the way to the DS tank.
If your AOS is hooked up to your intake then you are risking putting oil in the intake.
There is no need for an AOS, or any connection that can send oil to the intake, with a dry sump.

[Zach34]

The way Gator explains it makes sense to me. I dug up the Cosworth DS system instructions a while back and I like how they use a vacuum regulator on the oil fill port. I'm going to essentially re-create the Cosworth system with a few CNC'd parts of my own. The PCV tubing will be removed and all ports capped off. I will leave the balance hoses in place as they instruct. I will have no hoses going from the crankcase or valve covers back to the intake, so no AOS necessary. If not for all the oil lines for the DS system, it will make for a very clean-looking engine.

The vacuum regulator in the Cosworth kit is just a Peterson part and is available. The Cosworth kit included an adapter, so that's the only missing piece. Honestly, if you can weld aluminum, some scrap along with a female o-ring weld bung is probably all you need to make a nice adapter for the Peterson regulator.

I am curious if there's any situation where the 2-scavenge-pump system won't be able to pull vacuum, but I tend to believe that won't be the case. I also wonder just how much oil is collecting under the valve covers in a long sweeping turn. If it completely fills up the valve cover, then maybe we should be adding scavenge lines from there - but again I don't know that this is honestly a problem. Chad's motor is still going strong, after all.

[C.Plavan]

OK, Open System, let's discuss: You are missing the way it works if you say "you have to vent the blow by some place". The blow by will be sucked up with the oil in the pan and sent to the DS tank along with the oil. Air will take it's place coming in the heads from the line vented to the tank, and the tank has a separate VTA > Catch Can.
When you corner hard and fill the heads with oil, it will back up the breather lines but the only place it has to go is either thru the oem balance lines back into the block, or all the way to the DS tank.
If your AOS is hooked up to your intake then you are risking putting oil in the intake.
There is no need for an AOS, or any connection that can send oil to the intake, with a dry sump.

THIS.

I will add, I know Gator had success pulling vacuum with his DS, I tried what he did and was getting some very weird oil pressure (Lower) readings after one lap. I immediately slowed down, and came into the pits and reversed what I did. After going back to venting to the DS tanks, The oil pressures went back to normal. I never messed with it again, and that is still how it is running.

I did not run a vacuum gauge, but I did have to upgrade the vent hoses to sturdier hoses (Block-hose directly- no PCV valve, head vacuum/balance lines) The vacuum the motor created would collapse those lines when I tested it prior to taking it to the track in the garage. Again, this was all done before taking it to the track.

[Sgt.Gator]

Zach34 and anyone else who is thinking of a new DS system:
I'm going to cnc the fitting to use the Peterson regulator on a Subaru oil fill hole. I already have the reverse engineering done, but no prototype yet. I should have a small production run finished in two weeks.
I was going to cnc my own DS pans, but I just found out John at Aviaid has already made one and is sending me specs and pics. I never liked the ARE pan so this may solve that problem. His new pan has never been used so there may be issues we aren't aware of. Because it will be billet aluminum it will be more expensive than the ARE pan.
I'm also working on a different setup for the Aviaid pump. John sent me one but when I opened the box yesterday we both realized it wasn't put together right. Essentially it's backwards <LOL>... Today I'll reconfigure it and we'll see if it works the way I expect it to. I'll post up a pic when it's done.

When I'm sure we have all these pieces finalized, and I've been able to test them on my STI race car, I'll offer it up as an entire kit or as pieces.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Gator
I am interested in the Subaru Peterson vacuum regulator adaptor (SPVRA)

As far as sealing up the engine.
Putting my engineering hat on, if you have same vacuum at the scavenge pumps input as the rest of the engine. Nothing moves.
A vacuum regulator or some other air source (blow by) would be necessary to keep the oil moving.

AViaid pan
58046

[Sgt.Gator]

Gator
I am interested in the Subaru Peterson vacuum regulator adaptor (SPVRA)

As far as sealing up the engine.
Putting my engineering hat on, if you have same vacuum at the scavenge pumps input as the rest of the engine. Nothing moves.
A vacuum regulator or some other air source (blow by) would be necessary to keep the oil moving.

AViaid pan
58046

Thanks for the PIC!

The SPVRA (LOL) engineer was just here today. We're looking for a local shop to make the production run now. He's also helping with the pan, we think we can do better than both the ARE and Aviaid. More soon.

I promise the oil moves! If you think about it, the oil being pulled out of the pan is being replaced by new oil coming in from the tank> OEM Pump> into the engine. So it's net the same. Even if there were no blowby the oil keeps moving around and around. The blowby also fills in the gaps. Internet experts said a two stage scavenge would not be able to keep up with the blowby thereby creating a positive pressure. However most of the time they are looking at 5L+ V8 engines. Our little 4 cyl 2.5L engine does just fine with two stages, at least at normal power levels. Maybe at 500HP+ and 30 PSI of boost you need additional stages. I watch my vacuum/boost gauge, it NEVER was positive. Various levels of vacuum though.

I agree that if you try the closed system and it's not working just run the line from the front valve cover breathers to the DS tank. You give up the benefits of vacuum but if that's what it takes, fine!

If you want to read up on sealed - closed dry sump systems there's plenty of info out there.
Here's a good start: http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012/11/dry-sump-oiling-systems/

[Zach34]

...the oil being pulled out of the pan is being replaced by new oil coming in from the tank> OEM Pump> into the engine.

Unless you're in a long sweeping turn and some/most of the oil is collecting in the valve cover and not falling onto the pan where the scavenge pick-ups are. I think that's why we have to run a vacuum regulator, like the Cosworth setup, and I think that's why Chad had strange things happen when he sealed his motor up. I envision the scavenge pump operation being sort of analagous to trying to suck the last bit of milkshake from the bottom of the cup with a straw - you're mostly pulling air with small drops of liquid unevenly mixed in. It sort of has to be that way, because otherwise oil is filling up the crankcase and would quickly drown the crankshaft.

I speculate different motors are going to get different vacuum with the same DS scavenge pumps. I have an 11mm oil pump, but my engine was built by Element with looser clearances than Chad's OEM-clearance motor. That means that, hopefully, I don't get the overheating issues Chad had with the 11mm pump, which we now understand due to his heroic troubleshooting efforts. However, that also means I'm going to flow more oil through the engine, possibly at a slightly different pressure, which means the scavenge pumps will have more oil to pick up, which will impact their vacuum-producing ability. Lots of variables. I think a vacuum gauge and log is going to be worthwhile.

That's cool I have the exact same plan as you for the DS system, but you're way ahead of me. My job is going to shut down my progress for a few weeks coming up, too, as it has for most of the year. I'm interested to see your pan! I have access to a CNC mill here, so I'm probably going to design/build my own mainly as a way to learn the mill. I had tentatively planned on patterning the pan design off of the Cosworth one.

[RetroRacing]

How much vacuum should the valve be set at?

[Sgt.Gator]

I will set mine at 12". There is a discussion of that in the above enginebuilder article and this posting may be helpful: http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/crankcase_vacuum_facts.html
BTW, Nutter is located in Vancouver WA. I'll have to stop by there someday.

[Sgt.Gator]

Here's the new pump configuration I'm using in my kits. Side outlet, top inlets. It seems like a small thing but this makes it much easier to work with than the standard bottom outlet:

58272

I have two of them, anybody want to buy one?

[Scargo]

Nobody seems to be jumping on the Dailey bandwagon. I like the idea of how it's driven and that it uses it's own oil pump with external regulating.58276
I used a flat spot on the side of my fill tube for attaching a 1/2" MNPT fitting for an oil return. Just tapped the plastic (seems to be GF nylon) and added Permatex Ultra Black to the outside.
58277
I made my own balance tube from 5/8" aluminum tubing. It uses rubber elbows at each end.

[Scargo]

Nobody seems to be jumping on the Dailey bandwagon. I like the idea of how it's driven and that it uses it's own oil pump with external regulating.
58276
I used a flat spot on the side of my fill tube for attaching a 1/2" MNPT fitting for an oil return. Just tapped the plastic (seems to be GF nylon) and added Permatex Ultra Black to the outside.
58277
I made my own balance tube from 5/8" aluminum tubing. It uses rubber elbows at each end.
58278

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Nobody seems to be jumping on the Dailey bandwagon. I like the idea of how it's driven and that it uses it's own oil pump with external regulating.
58276

I'm going with the Aviaid system.
I do like the idea of the Dailey pump/pan combination. I will admit that I never priced it because it looked expensive.

Does it work with stock exhaust?
In the picture above, it look like he exhaust will encroach on ground clearance.
Bob

[Scargo]

Bob, Don't know... My plan was to go forward with a BRZ style/KB style setup and use the area where the tank would normally be for the turbo. If you notice, that exhaust turns back abnormally soon. It should be going out beyond the head. I'd think a normal header would work with it.

[RetroRacing]

Balance tube with the dry sump? now I am confused, I thought seal and install vacuum control or run them seperatly to the ds tank.

[Sgt.Gator]

Balance tube with the dry sump? now I am confused, I thought seal and install vacuum control or run them seperatly to the ds tank.

The balance tube connects the two heads to the block, nothing to a vent to atmosphere. The system is still sealed up. It allows both sides of the engine to be in harmony with pressures/vacuums. there is an oem one there now, just leave it hooked up. It goes from the two rear vents on the heads to the block vent in Scargo's pic.
Here's the parts.subaru.com pic. The balance tube is the rear one with hoses 1AB333 and 1AB343 that go to the head vents. The front tubes are for coolant.:

58287

[Sgt.Gator]

Nobody seems to be jumping on the Dailey bandwagon. I like the idea of how it's driven and that it uses it's own oil pump with external regulating.
58276
I used a flat spot on the side of my fill tube for attaching a 1/2" MNPT fitting for an oil return. Just tapped the plastic (seems to be GF nylon) and added Permatex Ultra Black to the outside.
58277
I made my own balance tube from 5/8" aluminum tubing. It uses rubber elbows at each end.
58278

Scargo are you hooking up a Dailey system or just making a comment on it? I'd really like to see how it fits in an 818. It's a nice piece of engineering. And why did you make a custom balance tube instead of using the OEM one? It looks great and I like it, just wondering because now you need to run and secure the coolant lines that are part of the oem one.

And why are you keeping the oil fill tube?

Is that a MAP or IAT sensor plugged vertically into the bottom of your intake?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Below is the sketch of my new oiling system after losing my engine last month.

Can anyone recommend an inline vacuum regulator?
Thanks
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58451&d=1473573102

[Scargo]

Scargo are you hooking up a Dailey system or just making a comment on it? I'd really like to see how it fits in an 818. It's a nice piece of engineering. And why did you make a custom balance tube instead of using the OEM one? It looks great and I like it, just wondering because now you need to run and secure the coolant lines that are part of the oem one.
And why are you keeping the oil fill tube?
Is that a MAP or IAT sensor plugged vertically into the bottom of your intake?
I was afraid I might confuse more than enlighten. I want and intend to use the Dailey system on my 818. What I am showing is my new STi setup because some are determined to make wet sump work in their 818s. Mine is a hybrid system of sorts, just for racing. My system is much like what's represented by Bob's diagram. Rather than the DS reservoir, I have an Accusump. Rather than the stock oil pump I have separated the oil pressure relief valve, like many DS systems do. My A/OS, AKA breather can or catch can drains back to the engine rather than being sucked back.
That said, I made the aluminum crossover tube to clean up the engine and eliminate the bulky runs of 5/8" oil hose. If anyone cares to visit my Shutterfly website (https://2008subarutrack.shutterfly.com/86) I have lots of photos of this engine build. I have tried to clean up and eliminate everything unnecessary for a race motor. I have no throttle body heating. That barb is gone from the water crossover manifold. The black metal tubes that traverse the block are eliminated. I have the one, 1/2" blue silicone hose that goes directly from the water pump to the expansion tank. I suspect it is unnecessary.https://2008subarutrack.shutterfly.com/254

The sensor you ask about is for my SPA boost/ oil pressure gauge. The oil pressure sensor is in the rear, left oil gallery plug location. I made a small notch in the water manifold so I could screw the oil pressure sensor directly into the gallery plug. I have a water temperature sensor in the bottom of the expansion tank.
I moved the Peterson oil pressure relief valve to a position on the intake manifold and am feeding it from the gallery plug where the AVCS oil pressure sensor normally goes. The AVCS sensor is now in the rear plug of the right gallery along with a second oil pressure sensor. I'll now have sensors for my SPA gauge on both galleries.
The oil fill tube is where I dump the relieved oil and because it is still a wet sump system that needs to be filled from there.

I had an issue where I was only seeing 45 PSI or so at my Accusump. It was tied into the other inlet/outlet side of the Peterson valve. I moved it because the relief valve's venturi effect was pulling down the pressure in the Accusump! So, there's significant amount of oil being bypassed...
Now, where to plumb in the Accusump? Before, it was in the middle of the oil cooler/filter block loop and the gauge on the Accusump was quite responsive and not far off from what the SPA gauge told me the oil pressure was. I'm thinking that I can attach it to the rear, right gallery plug where I first had the Peterson valve. But is that a good spot for both the sensors and the Accusump feed? Now, I'm getting very sensitive about "true pressure readings" and the effects of where you introduce and relieve oil pressure and where you measure pressure. Should have taken that fluid dynamics course. :p

[Scargo]

Below is the sketch of my new oiling system after losing my engine last month.

Can anyone recommend an inline vacuum regulator?
Thanks
Bob

Peterson.58465
You probably should have a thermostatic bypass valve in the cooling/filtering leg of your diagram. Some are built into the filter block. I use a stand alone Mocal OT2 (http://www.mocal.co.uk/products.html#thermostats), 176°F thermostat bypass valve.
58467

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Peterson.58465
You probably should have a thermostatic bypass valve in the cooling/filtering leg of your diagram. Some are built into the filter block. I use a stand alone Mocal OT2 (http://www.mocal.co.uk/products.html#thermostats), 176°F thermostat bypass valve.
58467

Thank Scargo for sharing all your knowledge and experience here.

My thought on the thermostatic bypass is:
When the engine is cold there is no coolant flowing through the Liquid/liquid oil cooler. So the cooler won't be doing much.
Do you agree?

I like the Peterson vacuum relief valve.
My thought was: Why filter the air again, just get the air from the top of the dry sump tank.
Do you agree?

Thanks
Bob

[Scargo]

Please don't anyone put me on a pedestal. Some of what I'm trying is not yet track proven. I am in touch with and consulting with an automotive engineer that works for Rousch-Yates and he has his Subie "circle of friends" that have some depth of knowledge regarding Subaru race motors. I'm just trying to think outside the box.
The point of the thermostatic bypass valve is to get the oil up to temp in the least amount of time. Many say you should not abuse an engine till the oil is up to 180F or so. Thus it eliminates the oil cooler from the path when not needed. I think this can be critical, especially if your oil is not optimal for cool temperatures or not low enough multi-viscosity oil. I hope to run 0-20 or 5-30 oil when it's 75F or less. My engine/my 12mm pump has no lack of oil flow!

I would guess that a vacuum relief valve could come in all flavors and sizes and doesn't need to be the Peterson one. Basic ones are as cheap as $20 and I can't see much CFM needed to modulate the vacuum. The Peterson one is physically not that big. Look at Grainger
Perhaps Peterson's works well in a dirty environment? You can draw your clean air from anywhere. Wrap a rag around it!

[walt555]

I haven't been able to think about the vacuum do or don't with a dry sump system yet. I'm still trying to sort out how to drive the pump in the tight confines of the 818 engine compartment and not blow the bank on it. What do you guys think about using the drive sprocket from the Dailey engineering Subaru kit? It attaches to the timing belt idler#2(a hole needs to be made in the timing belt cover) and uses a 38 tooth, 5mm pitch and 25mm width belt(cost for sprocket 160.00). I found some matching sprockets and belts for the pump from Gates Engineering. Sprockets are from power series 7709 56 - 72 teeth 4 tooth increments, Belts use 5mm product series 9400 lengths from 815mm to 1150mm. All this to drive a Aviaid pump.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I haven't been able to think about the vacuum do or don't with a dry sump system yet. I'm still trying to sort out how to drive the pump in the tight confines of the 818 engine compartment and not blow the bank on it. What do you guys think about using the drive sprocket from the Dailey engineering Subaru kit? It attaches to the timing belt idler#2(a hole needs to be made in the timing belt cover) and uses a 38 tooth, 5mm pitch and 25mm width belt(cost for sprocket 160.00). I found some matching sprockets and belts for the pump from Gates Engineering. Sprockets are from power series 7709 56 - 72 teeth 4 tooth increments, Belts use 5mm product series 9400 lengths from 815mm to 1150mm. All this to drive a Aviaid pump.
I'm going with a 2 stage Aviaid scavenge only pump connected in the position as the AC compressor also using the Micro v belt to the standard crank pulley.
Bob

[walt555]

That would be more cost effective. What size pulley are you thinking of?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That would be more cost effective. What size pulley are you thinking of?
Here is a picture

http://aviaid.com/media/photo-galleries/sys-cmp-and-instal/lrg-image/other/001.html


58478

[Sgt.Gator]

Inline vacuum regulator. I have it, installed it, but after watching my vacuum gauge decided I didn't need it, so it's sitting on my shelf.
-12AN size, perfect for the usual DS setup.
https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/product/vacuum-pump-regulator/

https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/33101.jpg

Pulley sizes: That's been extensively discussed earlier in this thread regarding both pump and crank pulley sizes. On my new setup I'm using a the same 5.5" pump pulley and bushing I used on my LGT race car. To use that size requires using a Fenner bushing which I think is better bushing than what comes with the smaller pulley in the Element kit. However I'm going to test a Fluidamper crank pulley which is oem size. It may not work and I may have to switch to an underdrive crank pulley. If I was building a 2.0L high revving engine I would certainly get the underdrive pulley.

[DodgyTim]

As I'm nearing the end of my build (do they ever really finish?) I've got three ongoing concerns with my 818
- Gearbox strength
- Axle strength
- Oiling issues (dry sump)

I'm not sure I've got the stamina (or the $) to address all three prior to heading to the track, but I find the need for a dry sump is clearly the most daunting.
There is no logic in leaving the dry sump to later, as then it will cost me a motor and a dry sump :(

Is anyone considering putting together a kit or a group buy for a simple, low end, dry sump kit?

[Scargo]

I'm going with a 2 stage Aviaid scavenge only pump connected in the position as the AC compressor also using the Micro v belt to the standard crank pulley.
Bob There is the risk of slippage or worse, belt breakage and ka-boom.

[DodgyTim]

There is the risk of slippage or worse, belt breakage and ka-boom.

From Bob's schematic it looks like the belt drives only the scavenge pump, with oil pressure supplied by the normal gear pump
If the belt breaks or slips the scavenge stops or reduces, the block will start to fill, and the crank will contact the oil in the dry sump pan
I always thought that was the cause of Chad's issues

[Sgt.Gator]

Is anyone considering putting together a kit or a group buy for a simple, low end, dry sump kit?

Yes, I am. But it won't be low end. There are two main versions, one with the serpentine belt which we know will work in an 818; and one with a cogged belt which requires a mandrel drive off the front of the crank pulley. I'm not 100% certain there is enough room for the mandrel drive. Next time I'm at a race with Tony or Retro I'll measure both their cars and see if it will work. The cogged belt version will obviously cost more.
What's your budget for a DS?

[Hindsight]

I thought Element Tuning already offered a kit?

[DodgyTim]

Yes, I am. But it won't be low end. There are two main versions, one with the serpentine belt which we know will work in an 818; and one with a cogged belt which requires a mandrel drive off the front of the crank pulley. I'm not 100% certain there is enough room for the mandrel drive. Next time I'm at a race with Tony or Retro I'll measure both their cars and see if it will work. The cogged belt version will obviously cost more.
What's your budget for a DS?
Thanks, I should have been clearer as I was really thinking about the system, rather than the cost.
I think what I'd like to try is a 2 stage scavenge, no pressure stage (use the OEM pump) but with a cogged belt drive system.

My hassle is shipping costs, on individual items it gets really bad, and purchasing locally is prohibitive as all the parts come from the US anyway.

If all the components (less hoses but with the end fittings) were boxed in one box ready for shipping for $2750 to $3000 that would be ideal, but maybe I'm dreaming???

[Sgt.Gator]

On the Serp belt comments:
1) A cogged belt can break too.
2) The Serp belt is how Cosworth does it.
3) A Serp belt is how Element does it and I've never seen any posts on NASIOC about them breaking and going KA-Boom.

That said, the cogged belt is probably better but does require mount shimming.

After I pooched my Aviaid serp belt pump I was ready to bag the whole idea of a serp belt system. I've re-evaluated that stance because the damage was my user error and after seeing how Cosworth also uses the Serp belt I feel a lot better about it. It also helped that it cost very little to get the pump re-built at the Aviad shop.


I thought Element Tuning already offered a kit?

Element does. Mine will be better! The reason being I've built the Element kit. I've got the Cosworth kit. I've looked at all the parts Aviaid and ARE make. I'm combining what IMHO are the best of all these systems into a kit. The biggest delay for my kit is making my own design DS pan. I don't like the readily available ARE and Aviaid ones.

But if you need one now either order Element's or I can put one together with my spare pump. Actually I have 2 spare pumps since I have a the entire Cosworth package here. If someone wants to buy the Cosworth I could sell it, I've learned all I can from it.

Dodgy Tim, yes, you are pretty much dreaming at under $3K including shipping for the whole shebang. I have no idea how much it costs to ship to Australia! I'll see what the number looks like with some options and send you a PM if you are really close to ordering one. A lot of it depends on what you already have. I'm guessing you have a catch can, but it will need it to work with a -12AN fitting, which means you may need a new one if you can't find the right adaptor to put on the tank or the can to connect them. Do you have a 2005-7 Subaru STI A/C mount?
If you can source the Tank, Hoses, Fillings, Catch Can, and the Subaru OEM parts (If you want a Serp belt system) I can come up with a quote for a Pump, Mount Plate, Pump Pulley, Pump Pulley Bushing, and DS Pan. Actually I can throw the Subaru oem parts in the box, they weigh nothing.

[Scargo]

I keep forgetting that the stock oil pump stays in place and is unrelated to the other DS evacuation pumps in the Cosworth style DS system. Doesn't the oil pump only get oil directly from the DS tank? If that tank became empty wouldn't the oil pump starve, while the engine fills?
I have never seen a serpentine belt break... on anything, but I've heard a lot of them squealing.

[DodgyTim]

Hi Gator, I'm not in a super rush as my current plan is registration about Xmas time. It will be easier for me to pass inspection with the Killer B stuff I've already fitted, then change to the DS system prior to tracking.
Your kit sounds well thought out, please keep progressing - I reckon there is a good market for an 818 specific kit as more people (like me) finally face the facts about needing a DS

[Hindsight]

Hey for all you H6 guys wanting a dry sump..... Element Tuning is working on one right now, just FYI.

[Sgt.Gator]

Scargo: Doesn't the oil pump only get oil directly from the DS tank? If that tank became empty wouldn't the oil pump starve, while the engine fills?

Yes and Yes.

Hindsight: That's good news. I spent a few hours with the H6 Tech Manual and examining them in person. I don't see how it will be possible to do it. If he can figure out how to do it on a H6 and a FA20 that's awesome.

Dodgy: I'll keep you posted.

[NevaLift2Shift]

SgtGator, Keep me in the loop about the dry sump system. I'm really starting to believe that my hopes of tracking the car with slicks and 300+ hp is probably going to cost me a shortblock or three.

I already spent over 1k on Killer B stuff and an AOS, now it looks like I won't be using any of it. I've found a few Cosworth kits, wouldn't mind one of those, but it sounds like the cog drive is not going to clear?

[Hindsight]

The killer-b stuff and AOS would sell really fast on Nasioc, for quite close to what you paid for it - just FYI.

[Sgt.Gator]

SgtGator, Keep me in the loop about the dry sump system. I'm really starting to believe that my hopes of tracking the car with slicks and 300+ hp is probably going to cost me a shortblock or three.

I already spent over 1k on Killer B stuff and an AOS, now it looks like I won't be using any of it. I've found a few Cosworth kits, wouldn't mind one of those, but it sounds like the cog drive is not going to clear?

I don't know if it will or not. The local 818 here is still waiting to put his engine in. I'll have a better idea after hooking up with Retro or Tony at the next race.

[Sgt.Gator]

Below is the sketch of my new oiling system after losing my engine last month.

Can anyone recommend an inline vacuum regulator?
Thanks
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58451&d=1473573102

Bob I looked at your drawing again and realized the Aeromotive pressure regulator I linked won't work in this fashion. It's a straight thru design meant to be between a vacuum pump and the engine block. In your drawing it would see no vacuum becuse one end of your line is at atmosphere pressure at the breather can. So there will never be enough vacuum in the line to open the regulator. Your design is an open system, not a closed block system that will create a vacuum.

If you want it to be a closed system with vacuum you can use the Aeromotive regulator the way I did by capping it off. In your drawing eliminate the line between the breather can and the regulator. Put a cap where that line used to go into the regulator.
Here's what mine looks like:

58591

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob I looked at your drawing again and realized the Aeromotive pressure regulator I linked won't work in this fashion. It's a straight thru design meant to be between a vacuum pump and the engine block. In your drawing it would see no vacuum becuse one end of your line is at atmosphere pressure at the breather can. So there will never be enough vacuum in the line to open the regulator. Your design is an open system, not a closed block system that will create a vacuum.

If you want it to be a closed system with vacuum you can use the Aeromotive regulator the way I did by capping it off. In your drawing eliminate the line between the breather can and the regulator. Put a cap where that line used to go into the regulator.
Here's what mine looks like:

58591

Hi Gator,
My Aviaid parts will be here Monday except for the tank.

I understood that the Aeromotive and all the vacuum reliefs/regulators I found a auto parts sources wouldn't work because there is no way to put a fitting on the air intake side.
The only thing I can fine is the industrial (heavy) types.
Maybe I'm over engineering this and should just go with something like this with a KN filter hat.

http://www.gzmotorsports.com/VCV101A-Vacuum-Control-Valve.html
Bob

[Hobby Racer]

Hey for all you H6 guys wanting a dry sump..... Element Tuning is working on one right now, just FYI.

Definitely interested in a DS pan for the H6! Please keep us posted.

[Zach34]

Doesn't the oil pump only get oil directly from the DS tank? If that tank became empty wouldn't the oil pump starve, while the engine fills?
I have never seen a serpentine belt break... on anything, but I've heard a lot of them squealing.

Yes the oem oil pump draws from the DS tank, and yes if the tank empties it will starve the oem pump and you will have no oil pressure - probably an instantly blown engine. But that's why there are at least two scavenge pumps. The scavenge side of the system must always out-pump the pressure side so the tank stays full and oil does not flood the crankcase. That's why the scavenge side draws a lot of air along with all the oil and pulls a vacuum on the crankcase. A very thoroughly thought-out system might include some indication or warning light if the scavenge side of the system fails (hose tears, pump fails, or belt fails). A vacuum gauge that triggers a warning light when engine vacuum is lost might be a good solution, if that even exists. That could accompany an oil pressure gauge that triggers a warning light when oil pressure is lost, which is standard in a lot of cars. I'm hoping one of the digital dashes can be configured to do that without adding separate gauges.

A serpentine belt should be fine. I mean, heck, they are OEM on every single car out there any nobody changes them for 100k miles, it seems. And those belts are driving huge A/C compressors and power steering pumps.

[C.Plavan]

If you can drain the DS tank, fill an EJ motor with over 8 Quarts of oil, and starve the oil feed line, you have bigger problems.

[RetroRacing]

WE have ours installed!! Will post pics soon, we decided to seal the block and use the Peterson Vacuum control to set the vacuum in the engine. Should start then engine tomorrow night, I was away last week, they moved the test day and made it impossible to make.
We got really lucky in the mounting of the pump, the shifter cables run under the intake......and are now through the scavange pump belt! Oh, and that is a big tank, with our new wing mount supports (the wing was bending the frame at 5 degrees) the thing barely fits.
We have made a bunch of changes to the car, next test at the end of the month at the Ridge.

[Sgt.Gator]

Retro will you be racing at PIR or just doing the Test & Tune day? I'm planning on coming up if you're doing the Enduro but I can't make it for test&tune.

[RetroRacing]

We are deciding on the endure after the testing at the ridge at the end of the month. I will let you know asap, will need you and hopefully Tony as well for at least one tire change and 3 fuel stops.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I got some of the parts in for our Aviaid dry sump system.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12534-MRG-MotorSports-818S-Build&p=251839&viewfull=1#post251839

[Sgt.Gator]

I got some of the parts in for our Aviaid dry sump system.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12534-MRG-MotorSports-818S-Build&p=251839&viewfull=1#post251839

Nice! You're the first person I've seen anywhere with the John's DS pan. And I see he sent you the side outlet pump, that's going to be very nice when you are installing and maintaining your system.

The thing I REALLY like on the pan is the oil return inlet (to the OEM pump) fitting doesn't interfere with the scavenge outlets. It does on the ARE pan, this is much better.

In comparison to the Cosworth pan....we noticed the Cosworth pan has a remarkably heavy and thick stainless steel "baffle", but really just a solid piece of steel that's elevated slightly above the aluminum pan, to protect the pan from the oil flinging off the crank and pistons. This pan doesn't have that protection. I'm guessing Cosworth did that from experience of the effects. This is my way of saying that you should monitor your aluminum levels in your oil with a Blackstone analysis at each change and annually drop the pan for an inspection inside for degradation.

Unlike the Cosworth pan that seals with an O-Ring, this one seals like the oem. You could use Fuji Bond or Permatex Right Stuff to seal it to the block per the FSM. But FelPro makes a composite cork/rubber pan gasket you might try instead. In reading the dry sump installs on small block V8s where pan gaskets are still used they like the cork-rubber composite gasket better than an all rubber one. I bought the FelPro one to give it a try. Sometimes the Fujibond/Permatex sealant makes such such a tight seal it's a hell of a lot of work to make it break loose and you end up damaging the block side face with little dents. https://www.amazon.com/Fel-Pro-OS30656C-Oil-Pan-Gasket/dp/B000C2EE5I

I'll ask John if he can run an O-Ring cut in the face of his DS pan and source an O-Ring to fit. That would make it much easier to drop and re-install the pan for inspections of the crank and pan after every couple of races.

And since I know John doesn't send instructions:
1) You don't use the shims in the packet, bolt the pump direct to the mount.

2) The Fenner bushing is a much better way to connect the pulley to the pump shaft, but of course they don't tell you the torque. For future reference I think it's a Fenner Trantorque Mini. I had to ask him the torque specs, here's his answer: "Actually its 585 inch pounds or 48 foot pounds. Also if you put it on with the nut behind the pulley, you are working with the direction of rotation to tighten the bushing. Technically it should not matter. On the fitting you turn it to where you want it and then tighten the nut against the housing. You should be able to get it to point wherever and then tighten the nut against the housing to compress the o-ring and lock the fitting into place."

Call or email me anytime you want to discuss it.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Gator,
Thanks for your comments an advice.

The Aviaid pan has an o-ring at the pump inlet (not shown in my pictures). I am worried about using a gasket as I might not compress the o-ring properly.
Bob

[Zach34]

In comparison to the Cosworth pan....we noticed the Cosworth pan has a remarkably heavy and thick stainless steel "baffle", but really just a solid piece of steel that's elevated slightly above the aluminum pan, to protect the pan from the oil flinging off the crank and pistons. This pan doesn't have that protection. I'm guessing Cosworth did that from experience of the effects. This is my way of saying that you should monitor your aluminum levels in your oil with a Blackstone analysis at each change and annually drop the pan for an inspection inside for degradation.

I don't follow. Why would the pan degrade? I'm pretty sure that baffle is there to keep the windage of the crank from pushing oil away from the scavenge ports. The Aviaid's is just a little different looking.

[C.Plavan]

Gator,
Thanks for your comments an advice.

The Aviaid pan has an o-ring at the pump inlet (not shown in my pictures). I am worried about using a gasket as I might not compress the o-ring properly.
Bob

Good call.

[Sgt.Gator]

Gator,
Thanks for your comments an advice.

The Aviaid pan has an o-ring at the pump inlet (not shown in my pictures). I am worried about using a gasket as I might not compress the o-ring properly.
Bob
Good point, it probably would cause a problem.


I don't follow. Why would the pan degrade? I'm pretty sure that baffle is there to keep the windage of the crank from pushing oil away from the scavenge ports. The Aviaid's is just a little different looking.

The Cosworth "baffle" could have been made much lighter and probably cheaper from aluminum. Everything else in the kit is aluminum and designed around creating the lightest possible parts. But that part is strikingly different, it's a much heavier piece of stainless steel. The same thicker stainless steel they use in their Subaru oil control plate with the rubber flaps. There is a reason they did that. It's worthy to note that the OEM Subaru baffle is steel and the Killer Bee oil baffle is stainless steel "Made from stainless steel for long life, durability and corrosion resistance." But the Killer Bee pan is aluminum.

It's possible that aluminum would flex too much so they went stainless for rigidity. I don't know the exact reason, I'm just saying that it's a warning flag worthy of keeping an eye by inspecting your oil pan.