Oil issues: Dry Sump, Accusump for road racing?

[Doowop]

Well, after a discussion on Chad's thread, I thought of starting a specific thread on the need for a dry sump in a 818R in full road race conditions.

It seems that the suby motor has oil issues in racing conditions. Blown motors seems to be a common occurrence. SO the question is what can be done to resolve the issue. The way I see it, there are 2 major solutions:

1- install a full dry sump system as Chad and Brando, and others, are doing. If performing as it should, this is the ultimate solution. The issues I see are the price, around $3500 when all set and done, and adding more weight, requiring more space and adding more potential maintenance issues.
2- Accusump. I think an accusump could also be a solution if added to other parts like a killer B pan, pickup and baffle, upgraded oil pump and an oil cooler. cost would be about $1400

I know that some people probably think that they don't wanna take a chance and aim for the dry sump as the solution, but I'd like to see what other people think about doing. Not everybody as an extra $3500 laying around, and if a $1400 solution would work fine, it would be worth looking into.

Please don't just throw answers like, "racing is expensive", or "dry sump is the only way to go", without having actual argument for it, it doesn't help much. :)

Also, what is FFR doing on the blue or red Rs?

[DodgyTim]

This thread is of interest to me too, I've bought the killer B pan, pickup and windage tray, and am wondering how far more i need to go
there is a thread on NASIOC
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-liter-litre-factory-motor/241090-accusump.html
but like most of these it is more opinion than experience
A couple of interesting items -
Even a dry sump needs to scavenge the heads if using on long high G turns
Subaru's pump larger volumes of oil than other similar capacity engines, so an Accusump may not have adequate capacity?

[tirod]

You can get larger Accusumps or even pair two.

What does Porsche do? It's a flat motor, too, and suffers the same layout issue, collecting oil in the outside head on long sweeping turns. That would indicate at least one way the problem has been addressed. The Formula V racers were pretty limited to stock parts, it would be interesting to see what they did.

[C.Plavan]

This thread is of interest to me too, I've bought the killer B pan, pickup and windage tray, and am wondering how far more i need to go
there is a thread on NASIOC
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-liter-litre-factory-motor/241090-accusump.html
but like most of these it is more opinion than experience
A couple of interesting items -
Even a dry sump needs to scavenge the heads if using on long high G turns



Subaru's pump larger volumes of oil than other similar capacity engines, so an Accusump may not have adequate capacity?


With the dry sump, there is alot of extra oil. When the heads fill with oil, it will fill back into the tank via the breather hoses. There is alot of oil in that tank to overcome the long high speed sweepers.

[Doowop]

for people that are familiar with those motors, what are the options for upgrade on oil pump and are they any mods on the heads to improve oil flow?

[C.Plavan]

for people that are familiar with those motors, what are the options for upgrade on oil pump and are they any mods on the heads to improve oil flow?

The later oil pump is 1mm bigger. I cant remember if its 11mm or 12mm. But that will not help the problem. Oil flow is not the underlying problem, its the flat motor design. It doesn't help to put a bigger pump in or improve oil flow if the oil pickup is starving for oil.

The only thing to do is watch and wait unfortunately.

Also take "Killer B" posts with a grain of salt. The guy is selling his product and likes to make claims about others.

[FFRSpec72]

I don't have enough facts yet, there are plenty of Subaru's that are on the road racing track today that are not running dry sumps and are not having issues, there are plenty of Subaru's that are on the road racing track today that have had engine failures. My challenge car does not pull enough G's to worry about a dry sump, it runs fine, in talking to John George it seems that the 818 pulls more G's than the challenge car. My current position is to run the car next season w/o any dry sump or whatever and when I get to the stage that I'm comfortable with he performance and that G's may be an issue then I will look into a system. It's just too early for me decide, it may also be too late.

[Evan78]

Can the Subaru oil flow be approximated? In other words, how long (or how many RPM) will the 3 quart Accusump supply oil continuously?

[DodgyTim]

Again taken from the net, so to be confirmed.....

Subaru oil flow rate is about 50 litres per minute = 0.83 litres per second
Accusump at 3 quarts is about 2.8 litres

So the Accusump (if fully charged) could provide about 2.8/0.83 = 3.3 seconds worth of oil,

I believe they only fill slowly, so as to not rob you of oil when they are recharging, so back to back high G turns may really reduce how much oil is available

[metalmaker12]

If your going to race the 818 you will need a dry sump system and an awic!
Why: if you can't get similar airflow as the stock wrx gets to the IC than an awic is needed
If you road race a flat engine with no dry sump that pulls over 1.0 g's you will toast your motor due to oil starvation, it is a common thing with the cars that pull the higher g's with no setup. The 818 pulls serious g's guys.

[DodgyTim]

Can we get some feedback from FFR on this? I assume at this point they have the most racing experience with the UTCC, do they see oil starvation in the blue and red cars?
I've emailed Joe Scott asking him for details.

[Mitch Wright]

I am taking the same route as Tony and also interested in more information from FFR.

[metalmaker12]

As far as I know both there cars have had issues, and the current build (red 818R) is getting a cosworth longblock and all sorts of goodies. I would hope they install a dry sump and they already have an awic. But I am sure they will tell you this so you can confirm it.

[Jim Schenck]

The blue test mule has only ever been run with a stock 2006 oil pan and pickup, we have never even opened the motor up, just pulled it from the donor and installed it and then upgraded the injectors and turbo later on. We haven't had any reliability issues with that car but that doesn't mean I would reccomend using the stock stuff on a pure track car, I wouldn't. The blue car also hasn't ever had cooling issues but it did heat soak the intercooler at Watkins Glen. We installed a turbo blanket on it and didn't have the problem at Lime Rock where our lap times held consistent throughout the session. (and it was a hotter day at Lime Rock)

Red car has an STI pan and pickup and also has not shown any oiling issues (our data logger for oil pressure didn't show up in time for testing but we were filming the oil pressure gage during runs). The issue with the red car really was that we ran out of time and had to go with a 175k mile Legacy GT engine that blew a head gasket when we put 23lbs of boost to it (not a surprise to anyone I'm sure, but we were hoping we could get one fast lap out of it).

Having run the cars like that but knowing what the issues are with road racing the Subie motors I still think for anyone running full aero and race tires a dry sump is the way to go, and that is what we are doing to the red car now. Phil at Element Tuning is building us a longblock and one of his dry sumps that we will be running on the car at a couple events before we prep the car for the Sema show.

For a part time track day car I think an accusump would still be a good idea, but I would keep a close eye on the oil pressure gage for the first few laps at any new track. Some tracks are just harder on the oiling system than others with long high G corners that don't give the oil time to get down to the pan.

[Doowop]

it also add the question of dry sump stages. They seem to be a lot of discussion about that on race motors on what stage is needed. the additional stages are the extra pickup points as I understand, so the kits some will be using is a 2 stage?

[FFRSpec72]

If you road race a flat engine with no dry sump that pulls over 1.0 g's you will toast your motor due to oil starvation, it is a common thing with the cars that pull the higher g's with no setup. The 818 pulls serious g's guys.

There are race cars like the Formula Vs that are flat engines that don't run a dry sump that pull more G's than the 818 ever could. So I still need more track/engine data, I just can't go off a generic statement, it may wind up being that the 818 will require a dry sump system and if so I will put one in (even though my family will not have new cloths for months) but my wife and daughter will want hard facts on why I need this $4000 unit.

Also when it comes to dry sump it's the whole system that has to be looked at, as you have to find a tank and location for the tank that does not allow air to get into the system. Dry sumps may solve the oil starvation but they also add complexity and can produce other engine failures.

[C.Plavan]

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink.

[FFRSpec72]

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink.

Smart horses know when the water is tainted and thus don't drink or will ask for a analysis of the water before they drink

[C.Plavan]

Smart horses know when the water is tainted and thus don't drink or will ask for a analysis of the water before they drink

Some FV classes allow dry sumps now, not all- it depends on the racing organization. FST they are allowed. The FV's pull around 1.2g's (no aero). FST pull around 1.6g's. John George was running the 818R at 1.5+ G's.

I have family friends that run FV's. They are not allowed to run dry sumps in their class and they have issues not running them. The lose pressure on high speed and banked corners. They try baffling ect. However, they rebuild their motors all the time. They are cheap and easy to build VW motors, unlike our motors.

If you or anyone else choose to ignore the fact the Element tuning blew up 3 motors on a race track, made his own dry sump system out of a bunch of available parts and has not blew a motor since, that is your choice. Heck, Brandon had issues with his that led to a toasted motor after one real track day. Nothing "Tainted" about that.

Brandon, myself, and now Jim at FFR have decided to go with the Element Tuning dry sump kit.

It's expensive, I get it. Originally, I did not want to buy one and was mad I had to buy one for insurance.

I'm not going to argue about dry sumps any more. It's your money. Spend it how you seem fit.

[FFRSpec72]

If you or anyone else choose to ignore the fact the Element tuning blew up 3 motors on a race track, made his own dry sump system out of a bunch of available parts and has not blew a motor since, that is your choice. Heck, Brandon had issues with his that led to a toasted motor after one real track day. Nothing "Tainted" about that.

I'm not ignoring or saying that I will not install one or that one is not needed, but the fact that some one had issues and thus a dry sump is needed is not enough for me to run out and buy one. I know a lot of Subaru's on the track that pull over 1 G and they don't have a dry sump system and have no bottom end issues. You have to account for type of track, driver ability, etc. What worries me also is that I look at some of these dry sump units and they are not complete or fully thought out, I know some folks that installed a dry sump, and still toasted bottom end due to improper tanks/line issue and was drawing air.

I'll let you all sort out the dry sump issues first and get my car setup and tested and then revisit this issue if the data points to needing a dry sump.

[Doowop]

Can Anybody from FFR tell us what they ran into? Jim, or Wayne?

[Jim Schenck]

I might have rambled on a bit in that post but my basic summary is we haven't had any oiling issues running stock pans but I still highly suggest a dry sump for a full aero/racing tire car, and at least an accusump for an often tracked dual purpose car. Just good insurance for a well documented problem in the really fast race Subies.

[metalmaker12]

The data will be presented by FFR and hopefully by then you have not blown your engine.

[RM1SepEx]

I might have rambled on a bit in that post but my basic summary is we haven't had any oiling issues running stock pans but I still highly suggest a dry sump for a full aero/racing tire car, and at least an accusump for an often tracked dual purpose car. Just good insurance for a well documented problem in the really fast race Subies.

Note: They have run 06+ pans... the earlier WRX pans have too much sump area and much higher oil starvation risk! To play it safe, for autocross and above an early STI or 06+ pan and pickup are highly rec.

[Jim Schenck]

The other big benefit to the dry sump is clearance on the diffuser. The curved floor leading up to the diffuser has to be cut out around the pan, but not on a shallow dry sump pan. The
Grimmspeed exhaust we put on the red car clears the floor so with the shallow pan we will have a perfectly smooth transition to the diffuser and hopefully be able to run less wing angle for lower total drag with more downforce.

[Doowop]

Chad, Brandon, would you guys mind sharing your research on what you found out there, and why you decide to go with this setup vs another one. I am looking into this and I'd rather not have to do all that work again if you have already done it. Thanks

[Rasmus]

I'm new to the dry sump world. Would installing a 5-stage dry sump oil pump be overkill for the EJ? 1 stage for pressure, 2 to scavenge from the crankcase/pan, 1 to scavenge from the left head, 1 to scavenge from the right head. Or is that just over doing it? Is running 2 stages to cavities that will mostly suck air okay? Most of the time the left and right heads won't have much oil to scavenge. But if you get to a long sweeper with sticky tires and start pulling over 1 G, you can fill up the whole head with oil.

What do the racing flat-6 Porsches do? Or are they mounted transversely?

Or is just running a 3-stage dry sump oil pump fine? 1 stage for pressure and 2 to scavenge from the crankcase/pan.

[FFRSpec72]

Should add a discussion about oil coolers also, are they really needed as I get mixed views, some folks don't have one and others have generic extrernal ones from auto parts store.

[C.Plavan]

Dry Sump info-

I'm removing the PCV setup on my motor venting to my dry sump oil tank. I will then Tee that to the valve cover breathers, Tee again and go to the "vent in" on the dry sump tank. The 2 port scavenge will make plenty of vacuum in the block.

For future reference on how to fill the dry sump, follow these steps:

Pour one quart into the pan via the oil fill neck. Take the scavenge hoses off and fill those lines, add some to the pump itself if you have straight up fittings.

After you fill the tank you'll want to crack the fitting that goes to the oem oil pump to bleed out the air until oil comes out (not running the motor).


As for oil coolers- YES. I will be running a Setrab with a fan pack for an oil cooler.

Over on the Subi boards, I cant understand why people think that 240 - 250 oil temps are OK...... Then half of them don't even have a gauge to even know their oil temp.

http://www.kartek.com/Media/Images/Large/SetrabSingleFanPack.jpg

or

http://www.kartek.com/Media/Images/Large/Setrab_FanPack_1.jpg

[FFRSpec72]

I cant understand why people think that 240 - 250 oil temps are OK...... Then half of them don't even have a gauge to even know their oil temp.

I guess I have to learn more as that is normal temp for the challenge car after 30 min race

[Sgt.Gator]

Hi Tony,
The Ridge>Carousel was the first time I've had oil pressure alarms in my LGT Wagon. That thing is crazy long at 1.1G! I have an STI pan, but I will be putting a Cosworth Baffle and Killer B pan+pickup on it this winter.

Regarding oil coolers, I'd have to say yes, it should be planned in any racing Subaru. I've run my car with and without, with was much better. My latest mod is a NACA in the front bumper feeding the oil cooler in the stock battery location. At The Ridge, oil temps were 220-230 even after a solid hour of endurance racing. And the water temps were even better. I did a lot of work ducting and sealing around the FMIC and Radiator which paid off, water temps in the 180s throughout the race!

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc359/MS6Hayate/NacaDuctDriver.jpg...http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc359/MS6Hayate/OilCoolerrev1a.jpg

Now my last heat issue is the transmission, it was 230+, spiking to 246. I'm guessing because the center VLSD was working hard and generating a lot of heat. Since our 818s won't have the center VLSD it probably won't be an issue, but it's worth running a temp sensor on it to monitor just in case. With the mid engine mounting we don't know yet how the trans will be effected by heat and lack of airflow. My temp sensor was located on the trans cooler line. Yes, I had a separate trans cooler with a pump and cooler and still get trans temps alarms. I'm saying "was" because I just swapped in a 6 speed. I'm going to try the 6 speed without the trans cooler system, but I am monitoring the temps with the sensor screwed into the oil pump line on the 6 speed.

[C.Plavan]

I guess I have to learn more as that is normal temp for the challenge car after 30 min race

Wow, thats hot for only 30 min- around 220 is the magic oil number.

Since the early Porsche's are oil cooled, maybe I'm more sensitive to oil temps. At least you have a gauge to tell you what it is.

[Rasmus]

Plavan, since you're from the Porsche world how do the dry sump Porsche guy's deal with oil pooling up in the heads from long, High G, corners? Do they run extra pump stages to evacuate the oil that pools up there?

[Scargo]

Chris (KillerB) says that a dry sump setup for the Subaru motor needs four scavenging pumps. One for each head. If you go external oil pump then you have the ultimate in adjustability of oil pressure, but I'm not sure that too much should be made of that. Supposedly I know someone who can make the stock oil pump's pressure easily adjustable.

Chris has also said "I wouldn't waste any money on an Accusump. It offers false hope as it doesn't provide nearly enough flow or pressure to prevent damage. Plus there is a pressure drop when pressure does come back to 'recharge' the system even when the engine is still under severe load. You'd be better off fixing what's causing the problem.
You'll like the 818. We've got quite a few guys running our pan in them The handle amazingly well and consistently pull 1.7Gs, which is more than essentially what the fastest open class T/A Subies are doing on far less budget! So far data logging is showing our pans are still supplying a good oil supply at those levels."
I consider Chris a pretty knowledgeable guy when it comes to Subies. However, I feel my two quart Accusump has been valuable in long, high-G sweepers. If it's a placebo for me, then fine. My motor/oil system has not failed me.

[FFRSpec72]

Chris (KillerB) says that a dry sump setup for the Subaru motor needs four scavenging pumps..

He does not come out and say you need a dry sump, is that because Killer-B makes the pan and not the sump ?

[Scargo]

He (Chris at KB) thinks dry sump is the ultimate solution if you have a racer that's pulling high Gs. Obviously, with slicks, a well setup/well driven 818 is capable of high Gs.
I'm really on the fence as to dry sump or KB stuff and Accusump with my 818 build. Big difference in money and complexity.

In addition, in 2015 KillerB has come out with a control valve (http://www.killerbmotorsport.net/oiling-products/oil-control-valves/2008-2014-wrx-sti-oil-control-vavle-96.html)which mitigates oil migration out of the engine through the head breathers. This keeps oil in the engine but does not stop oil surge to the heads. It's a good addition for a pure track car if you don't go dry sump. Perhaps best for a street Subaru rather than an 818. In an 818 you have cheaper, simpler solutions with the use of a draining A/OS which you can position high over the engine. An open drain-back A/OS is what I use on my track STi. A catch-can after that collects about three ounces of thin oil~fuel liquid per hour. My STi can do 1 to 1.3 G's on banked turns and spikes to 1.5 with significant banking.

[C.Plavan]

Plavan, since you're from the Porsche world how do the dry sump Porsche guy's deal with oil pooling up in the heads from long, High G, corners? Do they run extra pump stages to evacuate the oil that pools up there?

Doh! Sorry Rasmus. I posted it earlier, but for some reason its not there. Lets try this again.

The early Porsches (non water cooled) do not have any way to scavenge out of the heads- There are 2 ports on the oil pumps. Only the GT3 models have a way to scavenge out of the heads with additional ports. (Interesting fact- I can buy a new GT3 Cup car oil pump and put it in my in 1967 case to have the additional port to make it scavenge. It would fit in the case just fine, dimensions and all.)

So with the Porsches, it does pool up in the heads, but the early Porsches came with a dry sump system from the factory- OEM. Stock early air cooled Porsches hold around 8 qts of oil. My race car with a modified oil tank and front cooler holds close to 14 qts.

So once you fill the head up, there is still plenty of oil in the system. There are no PCV valves on the race cars, it vents to a tank with a breather on it. I made sure the hose to the breather tank, from the crank case goes up hill. I never have any oil in it, just usually condensation. I think I emptied it once in 10 years.

http://i.imgur.com/NzsXX6Wl.png
http://i.imgur.com/8xAPmTPl.png

Boy its dirty...... I need to clean it.


I have never had an issue on high banked turns, with sustained loads. I'm talking 10 years plus, never an issue.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CM1qMadE3M&list=UU9wU3oWJzomXePV8MsyHQtw


Looking at the Dry Sump I bought, it is similar in the fact that you can fill the head, and still have ample supply of oil (Due to additional oil tank) to overcome the pooling in the head. In fact, the head breathers connect back to the oil tank. So if you push enough into the head and it goes up the breather hose, you essentially are filling the oil tank back up to go back in the motor.

There are no head vents/breathers on Porsche motors, so this is new to me. Just a big crankcase breather is on my 911 that goes to the breather tank I mentioned earlier.

On my 818R Oil tank, I will be adding a sight glass on the side so I can glance and see how much oil is in the system since you loose your dipstick. I plan on throwing a Gopro pointing at the oil tank sight glass to see how much is being sucked into the system under accelerating/cornering/braking. The total oil in this dry sump ~8qts.

As for Killerbee stuff- I bought it all, but I do not think ~5qts of oil will last long on the tracks I see. So it all came off. I really don't believe the claims, especially for an 818.
I mean, who has a running 818 on the track that is not broken????? Since he has "Alot" of customers running them on their 818's, I want to hear from them asap. Keep in mind he sells stuff.... Its really nice looking stuff, but It wont work for me and others.

Another thing on what he said. Cars do not "need" scavenging ports for the head. Though it is nice, early Porsche motors have been doing it for YEARS and have an extensive race history. As long as your oil pump is not sucking air, you solved the problem. I do agree with him Chris on the Accusump "false hope"- A Subaru oil pump flows 49.7 qts/min @5000 RPM....Just do the math- how long does a Subi motor suck in 2 qts from the Accusump? I know of alot of corners longer than that!

I will also be running an oil cooler as previously stated. One with a "Fan Pack" to throw air over the cooler. I do not run thermostats on the external oil coolers, never have, and never will on a race car. It's just one more thing to break. I always warm them up good before going crazy on the track (remember I have 14 qts in the Porsche lol)

I'm hoping by putting this all together, my car last longer that one track day..... At least that is my goal! :) If the motor goes, I'm going to drop a Porsche 3.0L in it.

Sorry about the rambling- I'm sure you guys know alot of this already.

[Rasmus]

Thanks, man.

Just a 3 stage oil pump then. 1 stage for pressure and 2 to scavenge from the crankcase dry sump. Though a 5 stage could work; one doesn't need to go that route. It's alright to fill the heads up with oil, as long as the oil tank still has oil to pump into the motor. I'd imagine the heads will get so full of oil that eventually the level gets right back to the dry sump scavenge ports bolted to the bottom of the crankcase. Even at 1.5+ g's. There's only so much room to fill with oil.

On the head PCV ports. When I go dry sump I'd just block those off. Why even bother with the extra plumbing? There's still the main crankcase port on the top of the right case half I could hook up to high mounted breather tank.

[Santiago]

Chad, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Element Tuning dry sump pump only a 2-stage set up for scavenging? I thought their system relied upon the OEM oil pump for the pressure side (seem to recall Phil once saying that they never had trouble with the pressure itself, it was starvation that killed his engines). Maybe I'm thinking of another system...?

And fwiw, at the flow rate you cited, just about every carousel corner that I frequent lasts longer than a 2-qt. Accusump system could cover. I'm up at Road America way too much to even consider it...you're in the Carousel there for 12-15 seconds depending on the speed you can carry. Can you say "boom!" for me?

Best,
-j

[C.Plavan]

Chad, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Element Tuning dry sump pump only a 2-stage set up for scavenging? I thought their system relied upon the OEM oil pump for the pressure side (seem to recall Phil once saying that they never had trouble with the pressure itself, it was starvation that killed his engines). Maybe I'm thinking of another system...?

And fwiw, at the flow rate you cited, just about every carousel corner that I frequent lasts longer than a 2-qt. Accusump system could cover. I'm up at Road America way too much to even consider it...you're in the Carousel there for 12-15 seconds depending on the speed you can carry. Can you say "boom!" for me?

Best,
-j

Yes- 2 stage scavenge and OEM pump for pressure. Here is a picture of the pump that goes where the A/C was.
http://i.imgur.com/fAOwXjul.png


Oil flow specs-
Here is the Subaru page from their workshop manual:
http://i.imgur.com/oCVcRd2l.jpg

[Scargo]

I may have to play the Devil's Advocate. I will run this by you guys anyway. My experience has been with two STis and three different motors. First a 2011 STi that I started tracking right out of the box. I did headers and put out 300WHP and 360FPT. After several thousand miles of track time on it I totaled it at WGI. That motor was still fine.
The current car is an '08 STi. It got all the goodies off the '11 and 285x35x18 Hoosiers, Stoptech BBK, aero and Motion Control Suspension two-way gas shocks.http://www.iwsti.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=29377&stc=1&d=1383483935
I have about two seasons on the new shortblock with CP pistons. I broke the original motor when I sucked oil from the catch can back into the intake and broke ring-lands.
I have had no issues with the Full Race modified Moroso pan, external oil filter, Accusump, oil cooler and thermostatic bypass valve on this motor. I just finished installing a KillerB pan setup on it since I had the motor out to do a close-ratio gearbox and OS Giken diffs.

I run almost nine quarts of oil in the system (leaving it a half-quart low on the stick) including the two quart Accusump. I run Royal Purple XPR 5-30 or 10-40. I have 85 PSI cold at idle and it runs around 65 hot on the track.
I run New Jersey Motorsports Park and the "lightbulb" or carousel gives me about eight seconds of high Gs. BTW, I have experienced fuel starvation in the carousel when I didn't run enough gas.
I calculated Road America's carousel to be more like eleven seconds of high Gs.

Here's where I question writing off the Accusump. Even if the math is correct, and I base it on 50 GPM@5,000 (average) RPM, then can I do the carousel with or perhaps without the Accusump? I don't know how you can make the assumption that the pickup will starve right away. With the Accusump's volume expended you have to ask where is eight quarts of oil going (with two quarts staying in the other components)? Eight quarts can stay in one head? None comes down? Even with my open breather, with an open oil return, I do not lose significant oil in a track day. In other words it is not getting pumped up and out with blow-by or Gs.
This is all speculation on my part other than I have not had an engine failure over the course of many hard track days. I have been able to watch my gauges with the video camera at times but no data logging and I have no data about whether or if I have ever lost oil pressure other than the warning light I can set on my SPA gauge, has never come on during cornering (to my knowledge). I have the Accusump to kick in below 30 PSI and I think that's where I have the warning light set to come on. SO, I have no empirical data unless I can find an old video of me in that carousel and watch for a light or dropping pressure. Sometimes I can actually read the gauges in the video. I haven't done that kind of evaluation of my gauges except for at WGI. On review of a video, I did not have any pressure drop in the carousel, but I don't know the Gs.
This exchange on NASIOC and information about pans and pickups may be of interest to the members here. All Subaru pans and pickups are not created equal. (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=27383408) Seems late model STi pans can hold oil better than other Subaru pans. Chris/KillerB shows and contrasts pans in post #36 (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=27383408&postcount=36).

Edit: I do have both head vents in each head utilized and tied together. The larger ports on my W25 heads T's to the center, top case vent in the top of the case. This forms a closed loop that extends well above the case. The other, smaller ports tie to the breather tank and can drain back to the motor via the ex-PCV port (top-rear near the turbo). Blowby pressure cannot build to push oil out.

[Santiago]

Devil's advocates are a good thing. I think there's a difference between inquiring into what can work and what one wants to rely upon. So when I write off the Accusump it isn't because I think it won't work, it's because I don't want to rely upon a 2 second buffer (give or take).

I certainly don't think oil instantly moves out of range for the pickup to do its job, but then again, I don't know how long it takes either or under what level of lateral load the established fixes run out of headroom. So there's an unknown amount of time at an unknown lateral load + 2 seconds security, and then we're in danger. Will this set up be enough to work? Definitely. At least, I'm 100% confident that it will work in a lot of situations. I'm just not confident enough in it to want to rely upon those unknowns, all the more so in light of a history of Subaru owners confronting oil starvation once they're pulling serious lateral loads.

Best,
-j

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This is my opinion about the Subaru oil pump, I have no facts to back it up.
The specification say 49.7 US qt per minute. So almost 1 quart per second.
I think that is it's capability.

The actual flow is determined by the pressure, viscosity and the bearing clearances.
If the full flow isn't needed the pressure relief valve allows oil to flow from the high side of the pump back to the low side. I suspect at high RPM's this is always active. The spring at the pump is set at 85 psi. The pressure goes down the further from the pump. like a skinny long garden hose.

I am going with a 2 qt accusump.
I think it might supply oil for 10 seconds.(just a guess)
With 7 quarts of oil in the engine, I can't imagine the bottom of the pan being dry.
Remember, just my opinion.
Bob

[Evan78]

I'm glad to see someone else had the same thought as me. Everyone seems to assume that the engine is flowing as much oil as the pump will flow, when the reality is probably somewhat or significantly lower. I doubt that Subaru designed the system such that the pump is the limiting factor. Everyone seems to mention the Accusump 2 qt, is there something wrong with their 3 quart model?

[Scargo]

I'm not aware of anything wrong with the three quart version. I just looked and I could have fit the longer (16 inch) version in front of my passenger seat.
Another thing I thought of just now regarding this discussion (which may have been forgotten or shuffled to the back row) is the significant advantage of dry sump when it comes to performance. Vacuum on the engine and little or no parasitic loss from windage.
The Dailey system is looking better to me all the time. So clean an install.
http://www.daileyengineering.com/20-02-0623%20photo%203.jpg

[GUNS]

Great discussions in here. I'm planning on running my S during HPDEs w/ a sticky street tire and S aero, therefore I think I'm going to just proceed w/the Killer B stuff and an accusump. If I get more aggressive w/ aero and tire setup I may consider a dry sump system. My budget just doesn't allow for it now so I will need to go w/ the accusump route.

[FFRSpec72]

I'm still confused and undecided as I know folks in Subaru based EJ20 planes that are not running dry sumps but just Killer-B pans (not sure if these are special order or what) and they can pull high Gs for long duration.

[Evan78]

Do they pull high lateral Gs? I don't know much about planes, but from what I've seen, they seem to rotate so that they can use lift to execute a turn which results in increased vertical G which would just force the oil into the pan where the pickup is.

[FFRSpec72]

Do they pull high lateral Gs? I don't know much about planes, but from what I've seen, they seem to rotate so that they can use lift to execute a turn which results in increased vertical G which would just force the oil into the pan where the pickup is.

The guys I know that run the Subaru engines race through gates with the plane on it's side (right and left) and make a high G sweeping turn to next gate.

[matteo92065]

I'm still confused and undecided as I know folks in Subaru based EJ20 planes that are not running dry sumps but just Killer-B pans (not sure if these are special order or what) and they can pull high Gs for long duration.

Planes "bank" or roll when they turn. The normal force is always perpendicular to the motor.
Am I right?

edit; thinking about it... In fact their oil system works BETTER the harder they turn. The force of gravity is multiplied and oil rushes to the bottom of motor faster.

[wleehendrick]

Yes, fixed-wing aircraft don't experience significant lateral g's, as they bank. Some acrobatic aircraft do experience zero/negative vertical g's in pushovers, but their fuel and oiling systems are specifically designed for it. Those maneuvers are outside the typical performance envelop and most GA craft will stall out if it's attempted.

[Rasmus]

The Dailey system is looking better to me all the time. So clean an install.


The Dailey system is super clean looking. But $4,600 USD ($5,200 AU) is steep (http://www.rexnet.com.au/forum/index.php?/topic/178001-dailey-engineering-dry-sump-kit/).
*EDIT: Was wrong on the price.

[Wayne Presley]

The Daily set up is suuuuuppppeeerrr nice and is really great to work with. We had one built for a 427 FE. Worked great, looks fabulous.

[Doowop]

People are starting to get more into this. This is good! :)
this was my original reason for this thread. Trying to figure out what would a sufficient way of solving the oil issue without having to use a drysump for sure if there are other solutions that will work. Obviously FFR is not using one, but how much are they really racing the car? We see the track videos, but is there a plan to do a full season, if yes, are they thinking about a dry sump or other oiling system.
I'm checking with a couple friends in Europe to see if somebody has anything else.
ALso, I contacted Dailey. Here is Bill Dailey's response:

Retail is $3100 ish plus shipping

Attached is an installation drawing for the system.

Below is my standard disclaimer for it…

This is not a simple plug and play system. You will have be qualified in custom fabrication work to modify the motor.

Headers are one of the issues with clearance across the front of the motor to my drive pulley setup.

There are 2 fittings on the pan that need to be connected to the valve covers so you will need to add -10 fittings to the valve covers. If you can deal with this the rest is easy. I am led to believe it is very difficult to add the -10 fittings on the valve covers in a production car setup. So be for-warned. I can turn you over to some engine builders who have done this.

The drive setup is a pulley to replace the idler pulley bolted to the water pump. You can either get a new bearing or remove the original and install it into my pulley and bolt it back on the water pump. You will have to bore a hole in the front cover for the pulley to stick thru.

The only other mod is to remove the stock oil pan and windage tray and remove the stock oil pump gears from the front cover. I find it best to remove the backing plate and leave it off so oil can splash on the front main seal. The front cover can retain all the internal parts for the pressure regulator as they will no longer do anything.

My kit is the engine portion only. You will need to procure the car installation components, tank, filters and plumbing. I can make some recommendations if you like on what and where to get them. Some of it will depend your actual installation.

There are some options for feeding oil into the motor. Most use the sandwich style oil filter connection to allow the line to come out of the motor to an oil cooler. If you do this you will simply cap off the outlet fitting which will in turn seal off the hole feeding backwards to the oil pump which is not there anymore. Since the oil pump is already outside of the motor you will connect the pressure outlet from the oil pump to the oil cooler and back to the inlet on the sandwich plate. If use an external remote mounted oil filter you will have to source a cover plate with a -12 inlet fitting for the oil filter pad to feed oil into the motor.

[FFRSpec72]

People are starting to get more into this. This is good! :)


My R will run a full season in NASA (ST2 Class), ICSCC (SPM or ITE Class) and a few SCCA races, so about 20-30 races, right now I'm un decided what to do all I have right now is STi pan, Killer-B pickup. Killer-B Windage tray.

[Doowop]

I know, it's tough to decide with the little info that we have for this particular car.
It's basically spending $1500 on killer B stuff + accusump, or $4000+ on a drysump system, knowing that is the $1500 setup doesn't work well and you discover you actually really need a drysump, you just wasted $1500, a motor, and still have to spend the $4k+.....

[biknman]

Attached is an installation drawing for the system.

[/I]

Can you post the drawing?

Thanks
Dave

[biknman]

FYI here what I've done :-)

Attached are price list I got from ARE.

I'm using their pan and Peterson vacuum control valve (on Valve cover). Using a reconditioned AVAID pump ($150) and Peterson oil tank w/ heater and brackets ($100) and breather tank ($40) I got used from a NASCAR teams of Ebay. Rebuilt the pump (rebuild kit from AVAID $40 with univ blade mounts http://aviaid.com/pdfs/uni_mounts.pdf $45) and made my own brackets. Was going to make my own pan just easier to use the ARE pan. Bought all my -12 -16 AN push lock fittings (+-$100) used from NASCAR teams also. New AN hose and "push-on" clamps from Speedway ($100).

35021

35022



http://youtu.be/Zf_eXAQ1x0M?list=UUFbKmZyCgo-1Q5zNsqJPHXg

Good luck!

[Doowop]

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x307/michelcetre/SUBARUINSTALLATIONDRAWING-page-001.jpg (http://s181.photobucket.com/user/michelcetre/media/SUBARUINSTALLATIONDRAWING-page-001.jpg.html)

[Doowop]

Hey Biknman, is yours for the 818 or what you are running in your suby? do you have pics of the finished product? is it running and dialed in? cool stuff! thanks

[Scargo]

Thanks Michael/Doowop for sharing. I believe that price is a little less than Cosworth's equivalent offering which looks more basic.
I documented all I could find about dry sumps here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12202-Oil-pan-suggestions&p=137018&viewfull=1#post137018), in thread called "Oil pan suggestions". I may copy that over.
My reading says the Roots style rotors are superior for generating suction, or a vacuum in the case. That's what the Dailey design has.

I am perplexed about where the oil pump's output goes. They show some pictures on their website but it looks as if the oil filter area just has a Canton (or the like) aluminum filter cartridge in the spot. I don't see a bypass adapter plate there, though there may be one that's hidden from view. The oil's got to go back in somewhere!
And cool beans, Biknman's here! At least he's got his hands dirty with dry sump. We have communicated in the past.

[Scargo]

Dry Sump Systems and components

Cosworth (http://www.rallysportdirect.com/Cosworth-Dry-Sump-Oil-System-Subaru-Turbo-Models-inc-2002-2011-WRX-STI) in UK: $3,600 for an incomplete setup.
I believe the Cosworth kit uses a standard fitting, but high volume, Subaru-type, gerotor-style pumps oil pump; meaning the pump is not gutted and blocked off as in other systems. It looks to have a vacuum regulator. Huge bucks for such a minimal design. You don't get hoses, reservoir or breather tank.
Element Tuning makes a kit which uses an ARE pan and standard parts for $2,499. (http://elementtuning.com/store/#!/~/product/category=439244&id=14350303) 2 stage AVIAD, bottom scavenging only and OEM pump for pressure.
Peterson (http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/pump_dry_4stg.html) in Colorado: List of components for use on a Suabru, but no specific kit is listed. Four lobe pumps. Peterson has a good reputation.
Dailey Engineering (http://www.daileyengineering.com/subaru_ej_4_cylinder.htm)in California: $3,100 and up for what goes on the motor only. Undermount style like Zen's. They also offer top mount pumps. Roots Style Rotors are used in the scavenge sections for both style pumps and bronze spur gears are used for the pressure section. Machined from Billet 7075 T6511 aluminum. See post 23. Wayne vouches for this system.
RCM, Roger Clark Motorsports (http://rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/store/category/41-engine-power?model=&brand=&query=dry%20sump&get=&), sells their own pricey system which looks much like Zen's. Available in the US for less at Rallispec (http://www.rallispec.com/eng_opu_rcm2668.html) for $3,250. Does not include tank, hoses, etc. RCM has a custom tank they offer, but specific for Subaru engine bays.
Auto Verdi (http://www.autoverdi.com/downloads/productnews21.pdf)in Sweden: lobed, Roots style scavenging pumps. AN fitting machined integral to pump, teflon coated.
Zen Performance (http://www.zenperformance.co.uk/p/Products.html)in UK: "Dry sump system for Subaru". No specifics on the site. This is an undermount pump attaching directly to the collecting pan. Does not appeal to me due to all the exhaust heat down there. Could be insulated. Leaves things clean on top. Fewer lines.
I believe the following companies make all spur gear type pumps:
ARE (http://www.drysump.com/Subaru.htm) in California: Complete Subaru kit... no price listed. Machined from 6061 T-6 Billet Aluminum. Spur gear scavenging.
Aviaid (http://www.electronic-pr.com/pr/arch_avi_180.html): Quote, "For supercharged, turbocharged or nitrous-boosted applications a three-stage pump (two for suction, one for pressure) is offered."
Moroso sells their own line of pumps (http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?CatCode=12234). They are gerotor and multi-lobe type pumps.
Nutter Racing Engines (http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/dry_sump_oil_pump_products.html) in Vancouver, Washington: Extruded housings, inexpensive (?) spur gear type pumps. Not much detail on this page.
Articles by them: Important Facts about Dry-Sump Oil Pumps (http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/about_dry_sump_oil_pumps.html), The truth about some popular MYTHS and CLAIMS
FACTS ABOUT CRANKCASE VACUUM (http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/crankcase_vacuum_facts.html), The Cheapest Power You Can Buy
Razor Performance (http://www.razorperformance.com/catalogue.htm) in MESA, AZ: All spur gear style.
Barnes (http://www.barnessystems.com/9117.htm) in Torrance, CA: I believe theirs are all spur gear pumps. Machined from 7075 T-6 billet aluminum. Has interesting accessory take-off drives for fuel pump, etc. and built-on oil filter mount.
SCP (Stock Car Products) (http://pumps.scpdrysumps.com/) in La Habra, CA: Internals and materials unknown. Seem low~medium priced.
Frank Weiss Racing Components (http://www.fwrc.com/oil-systems.html#drysump) in Indianapolis, IN: No details within skimpy website. Out of business.

Caveat: I cannot vouch for any of these manufacturers. I am still in a research mode.
The best advice I have been given, IMHO, is that you want a four stage pump with one for the pan, one for each head and one gear-style stage for pressure. Multi-lobe and Roots style scavenging pumps seem to pull better vacuums and are possibly preferred (though more costly) over spur gear styles.
You can keep adding stages, but with more than three (most typical size of pump) you start to run out of room for the pump assembly where the AC compressor used to be. Stages can vary in thickness as the volume they move varies. Hoses are usually -12 for scavenging. Hoses can take up a lot of space; sometimes outlets are combined and feed a single -16 hose. A vacuum regulator may be required. The accumulator or reservoir needs to be vented. Some use a deaerator. Most use a catch-can/breather off the accumulator. Some vent the accumulator. Most have an in-line filter or in-line filter block. Heaters are used to warm the oil since there is usually 10 quarts or so.
I believe that in some cases a new system can be built for around $4K. There seems to be a plethora of used pumps available on Ebay and the like (and begs the question why). Some are rebuildable.

[C.Plavan]

I'll add this video here- The Element kit up and running.


http://youtu.be/ZP4OaKHQ7Ng

[Sgt.Gator]

I spun a bearing in my Spec B at ORP a couple of months ago. I blame the AOS installation, the drain line was kinked about 75% closed going back to the block under the intake. The entire intake tract was full of oil. I tipped the FMIC up and it drained for three days.

I've probably spun a bearing at Pacific Raceways this last weekend in my Legacy race car. The block is cracked at the knock sensor for sure. 2 STIs in our ICSCC ST class spun bearings last year. Both racers sold/are selling their STIs and going on to other cars.

Enough is enough for me!

I've just ordered the Element Tuning Dry Sump Kit. There is a 3 week backlog because Peterson is behind on making the custom tanks.

[Scargo]

Sorry to hear that. I've seen several engines where the front, #1 piston/rod fails and leaves a gaping hole at the top of the case. This just happened to a buddy with an '08 STi. A stock, well used motor, making about 370 and driving the piss out of it on the track. He had an A/OS but did not have oil drain-back to the case. As it was with my STi, where I just broke ring lands on the stock pistons, oil got into the intake. I was making 373/377 @ 21.5 PSI.
Depending on boost, your fuel and whether the pistons are forged or not, it can mean the beginning of the destruction of the motor.

In most applications, oil can be controlled without dry-sump, but it must be done so that oil blowby from the heads is minimized, and if it gets out, it is allowed to flow back into the motor. I've been doing it for years/50-60 hours (on this motor with forged CP pistons) with my ST2 level track car.
The 818 may be an animal that generates enough G's that a dry-sump or KillerB's clever little control valve (http://www.rallysportdirect.com/Killer-B-Motorsport-OVC1-Oil-Control-Valve) may be required.
Do you have an 11mm oil pump? There are lots of little tricks to making the engine last. Taking a tired, stock motor to the track without proper prepping is a recipe for disaster. Even built motors will fail if not built and clearanced properly. I was just on the phone with the owner of a race car business who wished to not have his comments publicized. Let's say he was intimately involved in Subaru racing for several years. He said Subarus were not meant to be road raced. That, for one, the engines could not survive. Then, you look at FFR and their 818 engine failures. Possibly simple mistakes that could have been avoided. I have another friend/instructor/ex-racer who went from an E30 to a new 2009 STi and then to an M3 when he got fed up with Subaru engine reliability. After the original engine and several built motors he gave up on Subies.
Still, there are success stories. An friend and instructor has been doing track days on the same Subie motor for years. His setup is well thought-out and he runs a Crawford A/OS.

[C.Plavan]

Having logged the most race/track miles of any 818R in the world with a dry sump, I'm not too worried at all now. It's just been a long, expensive process. Once the oil temps are fixed (parts ordered) dual coolers, one front, one back. Then I should be able to flog the crap out of the car.

FFR are just way too absent on the 818R, they either lost total interest, or something new is coming. That makes me think that FFR will be introducing a new drivetrain soon because of their engine woes. Why else have they not been driving the 818R's? So they can develop just a coupe fiberglass roof? I don't believe so. Something else is going on. If they do end up with a new drivetrain, I will be severely disappointed they left us to figure this motor out on the race track.

Hopefully I never need any bodywork, but if I do, I hope they will send parts to me for free for my R&D. Thats fair right? :)

If my motor goes with all the above modifications, I will either sell the car and wash my hands of it, or figure out how to throw a flat six Porsche motor in it.

[Scargo]

Not sure of costs and practicality but I sure am curious how the rotary powered 818 will fare. Having owned a twin turbo Rx-7 R1 I have leanings in that direction.

[C.Plavan]

Not sure of costs and practicality but I sure am curious how the rotary powered 818 will fare. Having owned a twin turbo Rx-7 R1 I have leanings in that direction.

It's funny- We always go for what we are familiar with. Me- Porsche motors, You- Rotary.....

Edit: What is FFR familiar with???? lol

[Scargo]

If I went with what I'm really familiar with it would be an old Porsche four-banger or a small-block Chevy. Neither realistic.

[Sgt.Gator]

Having logged the most race/track miles of any 818R in the world with a dry sump, I'm not too worried at all now. It's just been a long, expensive process. Once the oil temps are fixed (parts ordered) dual coolers, one front, one back. Then I should be able to flog the crap out of the car.

That's great to hear you are having no issues. I spent 30 minutes talking with Phil at Element about the dry sump system and he has convinced me. He says he went from blowing 3 engines on 3 consecutive weekends to now having two years on the same engine, and when they tore the engine down for inspection at the end of the season there was almost none of the expected cylinder/ring wear.

There's just too much upside and almost no downside, except weight and $$$, to running a dry sump. The initial investment seems steep, but it's worth it to me now if it means not worrying about oil issues ever again. And since they don't wear out and can be swapped pretty easily between engines, it's something that once bought, you can use for a very long time.

[Sgt.Gator]

I noticed Dailey Engineering has a pan/pump for the Subaru EG33 6 cylinder engine. The lack of a dry sump option for the EZ30R engine was one of the reasons I quit thinking about using it in a 818 or other Subaru race cars. I wonder what it would take to get them to make one for the EZ30R.....

42155

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad I'm trying to figure out - plan my hoses and fittings. I hope you don't mind a few questions!

I see the 2 x 12AN scavenge lines from the dry sump to the pump. 4 x 12AN 90 fittings?
Then 1 x 12AN hose to the oil cooler. 2 x AN12 90s.
Another 12AN hose from oil cooler to tank. 2 x 12AN 90s or 45s or straight.
12AN from tank to bottom of dry sump to mate to OEM oil pump. 2 x 12AN 90s.
One breather line off each head (front vents or back vents?) run separatly to the tank. More 12AN fittings and lines?

One 12AN line from the top vent on the tank to a catch can breather. A couple of more 12AN fittings.

What do you do with the left over vents on each head? Could you tee both vents on each together then run them to the tank? And do you plug the former intake inlet? What about the OEM PVC fitting on the back of the block?

Thanks!
Sgt.Gator

[C.Plavan]

That sounds right on the motor/pump/oil cooler fittings. I'll have to look. The tank has a few different ones 45, 90, straight, barbed. I'll take a picture of it, but I have the tank out insulating it. Keep in mind fitting wise, what worked for me may not work for you. It just depends on the hose runs as you know. I'm crazy busy trying to get this thing ready for the race this weekend.

Remove the whole PVC system and hose clamp a 3/4" hose to the block where the PCV stuff was. I bought plastic tee adapters from McmasterCarr. I basically tied the two head vents together, then those to the 3/4" crankcase hose (From old PVC location), then back to the tank with a 3/4" barbed fitting. It's like a puzzle, but you just need to tie them all together, basically ending up as one line (3/4"), then get it to the oil tank. That way if your head fill with oil in corners, it just goes into the tank. Not all line have to be SS or have expensive fittings (breather tank line etc)

[C.Plavan]

Here are a few pictures:

Both head vents tee'd together-> to an adapter with bigger step up in hose-> To a Y adapter -> oil tank. The other hose on the Y adapter is the 3/4" hose from the block (old PVC area)
http://i.imgur.com/cJ0r1v1l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/XuwrOb1l.jpg

I had to use a 90 degree plastic adapter so the 3/4" hose from the Block did not kink.

http://i.imgur.com/vA53ksjl.jpg

[Sgt.Gator]

Thanks for the pics and the answers!

Here's the inside of my race car engine:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4Sm6G-XyjBg5Soy0g6pUSfpjGL2L48g-jQCfxnE9YQc=w1615-h908-no..

[C.Plavan]

Thanks for the pics and the answers!

Here's the inside of my race car engine:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4Sm6G-XyjBg5Soy0g6pUSfpjGL2L48g-jQCfxnE9YQc=w1615-h908-no..

OUCH! No Dry Sump? (EDIT **** I see the oil pick up now- NVM)

[FFRSpec72]

I've just ordered the Element Tuning Dry Sump Kit. There is a 3 week backlog because Peterson is behind on making the custom tanks.

A co-worker here ordered his 1st week in March and still nothing, don't forget they have an active race program and thus not always around to keep things moving.

[Sgt.Gator]

A co-worker here ordered his 1st week in March and still nothing, don't forget they have an active race program and thus not always around to keep things moving.
I got my tracking numbers today!

[FFRSpec72]

I got my tracking numbers today!

So I will see you in Spokane this weekend then !

[Sgt.Gator]

So I will see you in Spokane this weekend then !

Nope, but I better be at Pacific July 31- Aug 2!

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm 2/3 done with the dry sump install. I'm doing things with the PCV just slightly different from Chad. He tied the the two vents on each valve cover together. I'm not going to do that. Instead the back vents will remain stock, the front vents will follow the path Chad is using: Front Vents to a Tee, from Tee a short hose to another Tee. That Tee is tied down to the old PCV block fitting, and on to the tank.

Why am I keeping the back vents stock? Well for one thing, simplicity. The back vents are tied together by a pipe and hose that has a Tee in the middle that goes down to another block vent. (Not the same as the PVC Block Vent). This plumbing is not connected to the Intake system, it just goes from one head to the other with a Tee to the crankcase. Less installation time and effort.
But the main reason is what I read in the Perrin AOS installation instructions. They say that the back vents and block are tied together to balance pressures between both heads and the block. They are explicit that this balance system is not to be modified or removed.
Does it matter? Probably not. Chad's system should balance anyway since his method ties the old PVC vent and the two heads to open air thru the tank and vented catch can. So the block and heads should all be the same pressure, or come to equal pressures very quickly.

One other possible benefit is if the heads fill up with oil in a turn and start to back up the hoses, the stock balance system is lower and shorter than going all the way to the tank, so the oil should drain from the heads more quickly.

And for those of you looking at getting an AOS: My Spec B had a Crawford AOS and after the motor blew I discovered the FMIC and all the intake tract had a ridiculous amount of oil in it. I've downloaded both the Perrin and Crawford AOS installation instructions and IMHO the Perrin instructions are far superior, and it appears the product looks superior too.

I'll post up some pics of the dry sump in operation, hopefully by Tuesday.

EDIT: After seeing Chad's post about air in the oil I'm rethinking running a hose from the crankcase PCV vent to the hose that comes from the front head vents to the tank. Now I'm thinking I'll just cap the old PVC crankcase vent. The crankcase should still get enough air to avoid problems because it will get air from the front head vents> inside the valve covers> to the rear vents and into the crankcase via the rear vent balance system.
At least that's the theory!

[Scargo]

Please correct me if this doesn't make sense, but I thought one major advantage to a dry-sump system was the ability to pull a vacuum on the crankcase. If you vent it (front head vents to a T and then to another T and on to the oil accumulator tank) aren't you negating that benefit? Other than that I like what you say you're doing and agree the rear vents should just be T'd back to the crankcase. I know some systems have valves for adjusting crankcase vacuum.

[C.Plavan]

Please correct me if this doesn't make sense, but I thought one major advantage to a dry-sump system was the ability to pull a vacuum on the crankcase. If you vent it (front head vents to a T and then to another T and on to the oil accumulator tank) aren't you negating that benefit? Other than that I like what you say you're doing and agree the rear vents should just be T'd back to the crankcase. I know some systems have valves for adjusting crankcase vacuum.

IIRC The dry sump is still pulling a vacuum to some extent. I think it's the nature of the flat motor and heads filling with oil in high g turns. Make a bigger vacuum, oil to heads slosh gets worse.

[Scargo]

I'm not buying it. None of it. How can a vacuum cause oil slosh? Even so, with dry-sump you have a vacuum and are sucking oil out if designed properly. If you vent the case then you have only suction at the bottom of the case "as the oil collects normally" and do nothing for ring seal or the parasitic loses from oil splashing around or oil collecting in the heads. Chris, of Killer B, says you need to scavenge the oil from the heads as well as the case bottom.

[C.Plavan]

Then don't buy it. :). I would take Chris with a grain of salt too. Porsche has been using a dry sump and not savaging the heads since 1965 on the oil cooled cars.

[Scargo]

It is not a take it or leave it proposition. I do take what Chris says with reservations, but his input does not have anything to do with the basic functions of dry-sump. If you vent the case then its scavenging vacuum is lost and it cannot do anything for assisting the rings to seal or for parasitic oil particles flying around.

[C.Plavan]

http://nutterracingengines.com/racing_oil_pumps/crankcase_vacuum_facts.html

Good info- I meant windage, not slosh, but kinda the same thing.

[Sgt.Gator]

Scargo this is a great question and caused me to do a lot more reading. My research shows there are people who insist the system should be sealed to get the extra HP from vacuum. There are others who don't care for the last 5-10 or at most 20HP, they want the original main reason for a dry sump, controlling the oil at high G's. And they point out that DrySump.com (ARE) recommends venting the valve covers to the tank. All these plumbing schematics include a return line from the tank to the PCV or valve covers:
http://drysump.com/LS%20Plumbing%20Schematics.htm
43616

Also Aviaid, the maker of my pump, also shows the tank vented the valve cover in this installation document, and they've been at this for 40 years: http://aviaid.com/pdfs/dsp_install.pdf

Burton Power Systems: "On dry sump systems, the scavenging action of the pump should evacuate any excess blow by gases in the crankcase and, in an ideal situation, maintain pressures at or below 2 inches of water. Depending on the practicalities of individual engine types and installations, both ‘open’ and ‘closed’ systems can be adopted with some tuners preferring the closed system. Providing a closed system (incorporating a PCV or similar check valve between the engine and oil tank) can be seen to function efficiently, it can offer added benefits. The closed system allows the scavenge pump to reduce crankcase pressures to a minimum, in some cases as low as zero or even a slight vacuum. In such situations a small bhp gain is achieved by eliminating combustion chamber contamination and reducing any residual oil drag (clinging to crank, rods, etc.) to a bare minimum."

And I've also read a guy on the Corvette forum who claims that venting the valve covers to the tank can be a cause of aeration in the oil. Chad note! He advocates a total seal, or at most a separate small vent with fresh air, NOT from the tank.He does have a good point, the oil and combustion gases that pour into the tank from the scavenge line will make nasty gases and oil saturated air. The vacuum created by the pump will be pulling those gases and air suspended droplets of oil back from the tank, thru the vent lines back into the heads or directly back into the crankcase thru the old PCV vent if that's teed into the line. That will cause the aeration. The vent plumbed to the tank sucks air in, not lets air out.
Is this correct? I'm not sure!

For me the HP increase is not needed, I'm already at the max HP for my class and I have more room in my turbo if I wanted 10 more HP. So the HP requirement doesn't apply.

So who do I follow, the the makers of my sump casting (ARE) and my pump (Aviaaid) or internet experts? Obviously Nutter falls into the sealed crankcase camp because of the write up Chad cited.

However if :
A) I could just seal the front vents and the old PCV vent, that would make the installation easier, reduce some weight, and declutter my engine compartment.
B) If running it vented is a cause of oil aeration that would be enough reason right there. I'm not too worried about the heads filling with oil and not draining back since I will be keeping the stock balance system on the back vents and block. I'm certain they would drain before the front vent hoses ever got close to sending head oil all the way back to my tank.

So Scargo you have changed my mind, at least for now! I'm going to complete my installation this weekend running a sealed block and see what happens when I dyno it next week and track test next Sunday.

[Sgt.Gator]

Two more thoughts:
The Avaiad pump and pulley we are using may not have the juice to run a closed system. Ours are setup with a a/c belt, not a cogged belt, and the pump has the minimum number of stages. I guess I'll find out. If it doesn't work I have the setup ready to install in 15 minutes to vent the front valve covers to the tank.

Running the system closed frees up an inlet on the tank which I'll cap. If a Spintric becomes necessary I can use that inlet for the mixed air/oil from the Spintric.

[Sgt.Gator]

This engine build thread on NASIOC is very interesting for lots of reasons, including a mention of our own Jeff Sponaugle! The thread starts because he blew his first motor on the track because of oil starvation, so this time around he went dry sump. He originally vented to the catch can directly, and the catch can had a drain back to the oil tank. That didn't work.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1272571

To the point on the venting you should just read the last page, but I'll summarize here:
"Oil fill is blocked off. Engine pulls vac under idle but quickly goes positive under boost. Had to vent to the rear tank as the engine likes to push oil out the crank case under boost. Mike of GST had similar issues.
I only run my engines for 2000 miles before a refresh so the engine in this thread has been refreshed already. I've had no oiling issues since the oil dry sump. I've busted a lot of other things but no spun bearings. I spin the blocks to 8500.
It's does not happen every time and I'm not 100% sure as to why it does it but you get oil shooting out of the crank case breather on the track. My custom drain back catch can takes about 1.5 quarts to fill before oil would also shoot out of the breather. You cannot reproduce this on the dyno and it's not oil coming from the heads as i disconnected those as a test one day.

This is why I now vent the block back into the rear oil tank. If oil does vent from the block it safely vents into the rear tank. I run a -12 breather hose to the rear tank. Mike at GST I think runs a -16 on his. We have both had oil shooting out of the crank case breathers.

Note it only does this under high G on the track so it's something to do with the oil drain back through the block."

At least in his case the turbo pressure blowby overcomes the dry sump's vacuum ability, so running a sealed-closed system won't net any vacuum benefit. Worse case the crankcase pressure could build so high that gaskets start leaking or damage occurs.
So now I'm thinking of going back to the open vent to tank method.

[Scargo]

Obviously, this is not a simple problem and perhaps there is no, one, ideal solution. What is the NASIOC thread? I know I have read it and believe I subscribed to it so perhaps it has been inactive? I'm going to ask a lot of questions because I am at my cabin and internet access and data throughput is limited. When I return and over the course of the winter I will have my de-stroker motor to build and am following all of this closely. In my ST2 level STi I have not needed to go dry-sump. Perhaps not making enough G's? I also only turn 7 grand in it. I am making about 500 crank HP.

In the NASIOC thread, I wonder if the PCV port is blocked off and is he referring to only using the smaller, more central case vent? Why couldn't it be baffled, as I believe the PCV port is?
Also, what is his dry-sump setup? Certainly you could have enough scavenging to overcome boost blowby and deal with any excess negative pressure, when off-boost) by regulating it. Does he run any de-aeration? He says he does not spin bearings any longer so that might be a clue as to what is minimally needed.

[Sgt.Gator]

Scargo, dang I thought I posted the thread link! My Bad. Here it is and I'll edit the post above. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1272571

The NASIOC thread starts in 2007, pretty much when no one else was running a dry sump, and it's 22 pages long. For me it's extra interesting because he's a Portland guy doing his work at PDX Tuning, started by Jeff Sponaugle, which becomes Cobb Surgeline. So there's pictures of Jeff dynoing this car. And pics of PIR and ORP.
There is also a followup thread here at his 2000 mile rebuild: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1651984
I'm going to PM him for advice now.
He's using all Peterson parts. No deaereation other than the tank and catch cans. He had to custom fab a dry sump pan because no one made one then. His is the full pressure system, replacing (actually de-commissioning) the oem oil pump.

Here's his Peterson Pump: 43637

The pressure from the Turbo adds a new factor into the mix when we're reading about vacuum scavenge. The system Chad and I have is the minimum pump we can get by with. 2 scavenge, one output, uses the OEM oil pump for engine oil pressure, a/c belt. Possibly to get a real vacuum going on a turbo we'd need a much more powerful setup like a Dailey: "Dailey Engineering oil pumps with the pressure section located in the front of the oil pump can be fitted with an optional Air/Oil Separator. The Air/Oil Separator routes pure oil (rather than foamy oil) back to the oil tank. This centrifugal hydrodynamic device mechanically separates the air from the foamy oil and then routes pure oil and air back to the tank thru separator lines. http://www.daileyengineering.com/oil_pumps.htm There is a video of the pump + AOS here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJxMNcHRvpU&feature=em-uploademail

And for those folks who are going with an accumulator like an Accusump or Moroso I found this Moroso video excellent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyaGoj60A6s

[Scargo]

Great idea. Note the last post was over three years ago. I PM'd Mick in February of last year and this is his response:

Hi Glyn,
I travel a lot so sorry for the delay in responding.

The dry sump is a PITA but it works very well after 4 years of fiddling and changes. The main thing is to vent anything that's not being scavenged into the oil tank. Myself and mike of gst had issues with oil blowing out the head and crank vents, more than just blowby.

To be honest I'm not sure a dry sump is needed if you have a good pan, baffles, windage control and maybe an accusump to help with dry start. But if you want to do one you better tell me what you've looked at already. There are a couple of kits available now.. Look for something that has a pick up pan and maybe integrated pump.

In respect to turbos I'm afraid I might not be very much help. I run a classic GT30R with a .82 exhaust or a GT35R with I think a .92. The 35 has lots more power but the 30 is a blast and rips my 295 Hoosiers loose in the corners. The 30 hits hard and hits 600 rpm lower than the 35.

And yes, both hips replaced.

Cheers

Mick (from Amsterdam).

I have emailed to a higher power for recommendations of who has successfully built and run dry-sump setups since this seems to be more complex than I thought. BTW, the Daily setup is my dry-sump of choice so far. It has the integrated pumps and pan... In January I had a brief interchange with Bill Dailey. Bill Dailey<info@daileyengineering.com>

Note: "... rips my 295 Hoosiers loose in the corners." I don't think we will need huge power to do that.

This somewhat picks up where Mick left off (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2475397), and its last post is a year old. I've not had a chance to read all the way through it. Two friends now have KB's valve on their track cars.

[C.Plavan]

I hope I am almost done with the dry sump "fiddling". I keep telling myself, "this time will fix it". I do know with the G's the 818R pulls, a wet sump would of cost me a motor already. Another fact- If you drive a 818R like a sissy on a race track with long turns or banking, you wont need a dry sump. :)

As for an Accusump.......where does all that oil go? Out the breathers? Yikes.

[Sgt.Gator]

As for an Accusump.......where does all that oil go? Out the breathers? Yikes.

And into the Intake tract!

[Scargo]

No, no! You sissies! Had to say that...
What category am I in? The sissy, don't need a dry-sump or the real G'man racer category?

When you run a Accusump it has air pressure behind the piston in the chamber. When oil pressure falls below that pressure it pushes the oil out AND vice-versa. When oil pressure builds it goes back where it came from. It never hangs around if there is sufficient pressure to put the genie back in the bottle.
Only if, like me, you have a manual valve, can you forget to shut it off and oil accumulates in the pan when you shut the motor off. Yet it disappears back into the Accusump as soon as pressure builds.

[C.Plavan]

You have to treat the 818R like a red headed step child...... Wait, I think it's been treating me like one. haha

[Sgt.Gator]

I emailed Phil at Element about the correct vent routing:

"Hi Phil,
I plugged the former PCV block vent.
I left the stock rear valve cover vents- crankcase vent balance system alone since it doesn't connect to the intake system.
I plan to vent the front vents on the valve covers back to the tank.
Should I unplug the former PCV vent and tee it to the valve cover line going to the tank?
Thanks,
Gator

Yes exactly.
Thank you,
Philip Grabow
Element Tuning"

So I'm taking his response to be I have everything correct if I tee in the PCV block vent. The stock rear balance system stays unmolested.

That said I'm going to setup the system to run either PCV teed or blocked. Initially the PCV vent will be blocked, if I run into an issue I will simply connect the line. The reason is I like the airflow path (theoretically) both under vacuum and under boost with it blocked. However if the under boost is too much blowby causing more pressure in the crankcase than I expect I can vent it off thru the PCV vent.

R&D, I feel like Chad!

[Scargo]

Gator, and all,
From your post #90 and the reference to the NASIOC thread (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1272571) and specifically Mick's final remarks (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=36617264&postcount=543), do you think they are blocking off the large PCV port?
I'm baffled (or perhaps baffles are needed) by why oil would be pushed out of the case vent unless too much was getting blocked off and/or a closed loop created. Especially when the heads are vented via the smaller sized, baffled head ports. Perhaps with a lot of boost they need more head venting or also venting from the PCV port to prevent this high-G puking. Mick do not mention the PCV port, so I want to assume it's blocked off... but on the other hand he says "crank case breathers", which is breathers, plural.
Note: The crankcase does have two places it breathes from. One is typically tied to the head's baffled breathers (the smaller nipples) and T'd to the smaller middle of case vent nipple (thus a closed loop) and the other, larger nipple is from the separator and for the PCV connection.

A source told me that of those he knew running Element Tuning's dry-sump setup, all have had issues. Mike, of GST seems to like his pricey, but simple, Cosworth setup. He also said that of the Dailey setups he's been involved with that he has had no concerns about using them.
THEN, OTOH he made reference to TIC's Subie race car, which does no have a dry-sump or even an Accusump...and run's VIR at 1:54's.

Note: NASIOC link fixed.

[Wayne Presley]

Gator, and all,
NASIOC thread (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1272571)



linky no worky

[Sgt.Gator]

Scargo I can't see how oil could be forced out of either of the crankcase vents. At least not anything larger than oil droplets in the air as it's all churning around.
Mick is using a Peterson Pump. Element is the smallest, the Aviaid version I'm using is the smallest of them all. Maybe neither is strong enough to create enough vacuum to prevent this. Maybe the Dailey and Cosworth are strong enough.

I went ahead and setup the initial plumbing to Phil's reccomendation, that is the PCV port teed to the front head vents and then to the tank. I can easily just plug the Tee and the line down to the PCV port if I want to try it the other way.

I've thought about adding a simple in-out catch can to that line near the tank just to trap up to a liter of oil on the way to the tank and try to get an idea of just how much oil is being pushed from the heads and pcv vent.
Almost done with my install. I discovered last night I need a couple of different -12AN fittings than I had planned on.

[Scargo]

I believe now that Mick meant the head vents. If you think in terms of engines other than flat, or boxer design, the valve covers, ie, the heads, are on top and where an engine is vented. I will communicate with him to confirm this. If that's the case and this is an issue of semantics, then it makes all the sense in the world and is in line with what Chris of KB and others have said about oil surge into the heads in high-G capable cars.

[Sgt.Gator]

I just got this from Mick and am posting it with his permission. It's actually two emails combined to make best sense here. Keep in mind these are 500 AWHP builds:

"Hi Gator,
Phil from Element and Mike from GST are the only two people I spoke with as we built up experience in running dry sump setups. I was one of the first but they raced more than me so built up experience that I rolled into my setup.

Phil’s input seems sound. My race block (the one which needs a rebuild) has the baffled head breathers blocked off, I didn’t experience any issue with that. The block is a sleeved and bored 2.2T so it only have one crank case breather.

My spare 2.5L backup block which I’m running at the moment has the setup as below.

In respect to your dry sump question, you must vent the engine as the dry sump cannot pull a vacuum under boost.

At some point under boost and G’s you will blow oil out of pretty much every engine vent, heads and block.

The Baffled breathers are teed with each other and teed into the smaller port on top of the 2.5L block. The un-baffled head vents go into a drain back catch can with drain back to main crank case breather as well as venting as described below. The drain back catch can itself hooks up to the main block vent which doubles up as the drain back but also allows oil to “blow” out the vent.

The drain back catch can itself is vented to the main oil storage dry sump tank. I have a check valve on the catch can vent so that air/oil can only exit. Amazingly on the track I have had a couple of cases where this catch can completely fills and blows oil out the top vent!!! (This was before I had it venting as seen below)
https://mail.google.com/mail/ca/u/0/?ui=2&ik=622f28052e&view=fimg&th=14eb25305934bd84&attid=0.1&disp=emb&attbid=ANGjdJ97KUmLGOZS8IQaPLkI21XtR8fKs0OXhKm9dPh eefSFX6Qg5Altr-0v3Mre9CTaNftH43CNSrwXSTA31ZOfEmJ9Dzq26KLwARZCTAb4 49MmC6P5HXlLEs6-nLU&sz=w1702-h1186&ats=1437513254060&rm=14eb25305934bd84&zw&atsh=1

At the dry sump tank I have the oil vent from the catch can “T”ed into the pre-tank oil filter, again with a check valve to ensure that the oil from the main oil return does not back feed into the vent line.

https://mail.google.com/mail/ca/u/0/?ui=2&ik=622f28052e&view=fimg&th=14eb25305934bd84&attid=0.2&disp=emb&attbid=ANGjdJ-QCDn6B5wxbXtIuaR2kAfc1XuKAlWbXCKyw5Dtcb9uauXJnRyt9 o2Ueh4C9OOdvofsmP9kIjg6qM9RVYvkBnNSE_aAa9slffvAPQs Gpb7d1dQtIazSWJpuXh0&sz=w1724-h1322&ats=1437513254060&rm=14eb25305934bd84&zw&atsh=1

One other note, but this might be specific to my setup. If I run 80 psi oil pressure my oil ends up getting very hot, somewhat seems to overrun coolant and the two oil coolers I have installed. At 65psi this is not so much of an issue. No joke, at 80psi once the oil warms up I can do like 2 laps before the oil temp goes crazy. At 65psi I can go lap after lap with hardly any issue. I have to think I am flowing too much oil through the engine at 80psi….

Cheers

Mick"

I bolded the text just for Chad's benefit!

[C.Plavan]

That kinda goes along with the theory of higher oil pressure, more aeration, less oil cooler efficiency. (hotter oil)
https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3733/oil-aeration

[C.Plavan]

Look what showed up. I hope it works!!!!!!:mad:

http://i.imgur.com/hG18X5sl.jpg

[Scargo]

"Altering the shear rate within the bearing assembly by increasing the clearance can reduce friction, but the extra clearance will need higher oil 'make up' or flow, and so any performance released by reducing the friction may be consumed again by the extra lubricant to be pumped. On the other hand, too fine a clearance will never allow the oil to flow, and the heat generated - which is otherwise taken away with the oil as it leaks away - will inevitably lead to bearing failure."*
I take this to also mean that too high an oil pressure negatively affects the shear rate and drives up the heat of the oil.
*https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3389/bearing-lubrication
Similarly, there have been many that say that you shouldn't put a 12mm JDM oil pump in a high-performance motor.

12-10-2017 Update: I ran over 20 track hours in my STi with a ported 12mm pump and external Peterson pressure relief valve in this new built EJ257 engine. Oil pressure's typically 70 to 85. I ran either 430 or 470 horsepower (I can select between three maps). Engine is ready to go in the spring, as-is. UOA's have been OK.

[Sgt.Gator]

Look what showed up. I hope it works!!!!!!:mad:

http://i.imgur.com/hG18X5sl.jpg

What is the cost of this unit, they don't say on the web page.

[C.Plavan]

What is the cost of this unit, they don't say on the web page.

~$800.....

I also bought a special fitting that will go into the aluminum oil tank (ARE provided- Gary suggestion since my tank only has one top vent). I bought a -12 aluminum bung to weld into the top of the aluminum tank (female O ring type). It has a flow fitting on it that will help the air/oil exit hose further. It will reduce the amount of air in the oil going into the tank from the air relief valve on the Spintric.

I have to take the tank out to drill and weld the bung in. I'm also going to weld in a 1/8" NPT bung at the bottom to make you crazy oil temp guys happy. :)

[Pearldrummer7]

I'm also going to weld in a 1/8" NPT bung at the bottom to make you crazy oil temp guys happy. :)

haha it might be worth the time/effort to relocate the sensor. That time spent is easily made up with how many times you've written "there's no problem with temperature location, guys"


Nice unit. I hope it fixes the temperature problem, Chad!

[flynntuna]

Fingers crossed :D

[Flamshackle]

~$800.....

I also bought a special fitting that will go into the aluminum oil tank (ARE provided- Gary suggestion since my tank only has one top vent). I bought a -12 aluminum bung to weld into the top of the aluminum tank (female O ring type). It has a flow fitting on it that will help the air/oil exit hose further. It will reduce the amount of air in the oil going into the tank from the air relief valve on the Spintric.

I have to take the tank out to drill and weld the bung in. I'm also going to weld in a 1/8" NPT bung at the bottom to make you crazy oil temp guys happy. :)

Man oh Man I hope this is it!

[Sgt.Gator]

Finished up my dry sump install and took the car to Cobb for tune. Everything went fine on the dyno. Sunday I'll take it to ORP for a test & tune. I went thru a bunch of -12AN hose and fittings!

[Mitch Wright]

Look forward to some completed Dry Sump pictures and test report.

[C.Plavan]

Look forward to some completed Dry Sump pictures and test report.

FYI- Sgt. Gator does not have an 818- Its on his Legacy racer. So his findings may be different, since its a different car/configuration/weight/speed/g's. etc All that stuff.

[Sgt.Gator]

I replicated Chad's problem. Massive oil temp spikes on track. I'll write up a full report.
The good news is I think I know why, but I want to talk with Chad first.
More to come soon!

[Pearldrummer7]

I replicated Chad's problem. Massive oil temp spikes on track. I'll write up a full report.
The good news is I think I know why, but I want to talk with Chad first.
More to come soon!

I can't tell if that's concerning or exciting....

Keep us posted!

[Mitch Wright]

Great news

[Sgt.Gator]

Well what I thought was the problem, is probably not the problem. After talking with John at Aviaid I was probably wrong in my theory of the problem.

First here's a graph of my track session. You can see the normal drop in oil pressure as the oil temp rises. Then suddenly the average oil pressure climbs and so does the oil temp until there is a dramatic increase oil temps and oil pressure falls way off. The oil pressure falls way off because I saw the temps climbing like crazy and backed off the throttle until I was coasting and the engine stopped running. I fired it back up right away and kept it idling and coasting as much as possible til I left the track, that restart is not on the graph:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UYn4mLD5helXYyLOfrZlr6nVDMuISFliwPrf5QptoFA=w1334-h600-no


Tonight I found this when checking the belt tension. Although it looked ok on the engine when I started turning the adjuster it didn't feel right:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9TrYpYVoC91Yu6au89Our126EnNx4J6514d9m5k9uaE=w1211-h908-no

Element Tuning dry sump does NOT provide engine pressure, but if it's not working right the engine block will fill with oil and could cause the rise in temps as the oil gets whipped by the crank. That might explain the sudden rise in temps if it broke and the pump wasn't spinning correctly. See the far right side of the graph.

Thanks,
Gator

[C.Plavan]

See I'm not crazy!!!!

I checked my belt, I could probably tighten it down a bit more just in case. I'm still leaning towards oil aeration and will be installing that trick air/oil separator. If that does not work...... We are screwed.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Sgt.Gator and Chad,

Chad, you are not crazy, just going broke.
Great Job Sgt,Gator

I'm still leaning toward my theory that when the oil gets hot AND 85psi, the flow is to much for the scavenge pumps to keep up.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?11129-Plavan-s-818R-Build-Thread&p=204761&viewfull=1#post204761

A quick fix might be to change pulleys and spin the scavenge pump a little faster.
Bob

PS: The chances of both Chad and Sgt.Gator of having the same broken bracket is pretty slim.

[Sgt.Gator]

I don't think the broken A/C adjuster is the problem. I think I broke it after the track session when I tried to adjust the belt tighter but forgot to loosen the lock nut on the arm. It's a plastic and doesn't withstand much of that.

Bob, I can assure you it doesn't need to spin faster. Here's why: On Chad and my systems we use the stock crank pulley (5.5"). The pump pulley is 4", so we are already running the pump at 137% faster than crank. I thought "Eureka!" In all the literature the pump is supposed to run at 50% of crank, more than 5,000 rpm causes cavititation. Every image you see on the pump manufacturers websites show the crank pulley half the size of the pump pulley.

Well it turns out that doesn't apply to scavenge only systems, only pressure systems. The scavenge only can be spun at super high speeds and it's ok. I got that straight from John, the owner of Aviaid pumps. He says he's sold lots of pumps to Phil for the Element systems and never seen our problem.
So if anything the pump could possibly use a larger pulley to slow it down. A 6" would slow it down to 95% crank speed.

I went back and pulled a bunch of logs pre and post dry sump, which also is pre and post new shortblock/oem oil pump. I only have one log with the new shortblock and the wet sump:

The ORANGE lines are RPM, the BLUE lines are Oil Pressure, the Red Line is Oil Temperature.
Chronologically

May 2014, Wet Sump, 20 minute race in Spokane. Oil never goes over 186 degrees, oil pressure is flat 60-90 psi:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tHUrYaVv73qzD7WqtHcMiWALXTjC1YnAOI41Padb7hk=w1122-h597-no


Sept 2014, wet sump, 3 laps in a 60 minute enduro at The Ridge. Each line is one of three laps:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/gg6sl_-1I0y5FSE3y_Kjal9epvIgsbCoPCNdaVsvfo4=w1122-h596-no

June 2015, New Shortblock, New Oil Pump, Wet Sump. The first indication that my oil pressures are too high. After a warm up I hit the track and the oil pressures are too high for warm oil. Session cut short when vacuum line comes off EWG:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/F2yi5al0HMHXgDF93lL5JpYJ2qgYohJDBkE-l2wLCm0=w1122-h600-no


July 2015, DYNO session, New Dry Sump. Oil pressure is too high but oil temps don't climb because WOT is so short before long idle sessions during tuning:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/R2sEsxJtxhTeEBQqh6nxHsn7kceS_LYX2ByuvvaULZE=w1122-h617-no

And finally the track test as in the above post, but this one has RPM on it. Long warm up, normal oil pressures, but as soon as I hit the track with hot oil the pressures go too high and and the temps start climbing:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/X-dWNRNc4osR0rul4gdEaNWsExtJQzXQTQo8jroSDEo=w1122-h578-no


The problem with high oil pressures: Not only can it blow out seals and other damage, but the Subaru OEM Oil Pump Bypass opens at 95 PSI. That causes the same sample of oil to spin around and around in the pump, which according to John at Aviaid (who sent me down this course of investigation) that heats the crap out of the oil:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/BMPKCBxo-r9PtYrFz0RZkcgT_4skZCI7SAOCW4FybzU=w640-h300-no

Conclusion: For some reason I'm having excessive oil pressures, causing the bypass to open, causing the oil to heat up. The oil is probably also cavitating because it keeps getting spun around and around in the pump.

Solution: New OEM Pump? Does it matter if I use a 10, 11, or 12 mm pump? Should I try an OEM pump modified for "high volume" or will that make it worse? I need your help!

The other solution is to add a pressure stage to the pump, which also means a new crank pulley and crank pulley mandrel and other bits like a remote oil filter.....and more $$$.

[Tamra]

You can add shims to the pump that will increase the bypass pressure. The 11mm pump bypasses at a lower psi so you'd have to add more shims to raise it. The smallest pump that meets your needs is the one you want, since a 12mm will bypass more than a 10mm, per my understanding.

I do not know much of anything about dry/wet sumps, so can't help you there.

Here's a quote from our own build thread from awhile back when we researched pumps after having <10psi idling pressure with our 10mm pump:



We picked up an 11mm brand new Subaru pump today. We checked the plunger for any burrs and sanded it with fine sand paper (known problem on the 11mm pumps - the relief valve can be stuck open from the factory), and also added 4 shims to increase the bypass pressure. The shims don't affect idle oil pressure, but they do increase the psi point in which the pump starts bypassing the oil pressure at higher RPM's, reducing the risk of aeration (leads to sudden oil pressure loss). The 11mm pump has an oem 75psi bypass (vs 85 for the 10mm), and the more shims you add the higher the psi has to be before the bypass opens. This puts more pressure on the system overall, but with our high rev goals, it makes it safer and decreases the risk of aeration.

We decided against the 12mm pump because we read that it actually drops off over 6500 rpm (meaning the 11mm flows more oil than the 12mm after that point). We haven't seen any data on exactly how much each shim increases the bypass psi, so we are hoping/guessing that 4 is about right. Most people do 3, but with us increasing the red line, we figured 4 would be better.

We did not expect to see our oil pressure increase from <10psi to 25 psi. Our suspicion is that either our relief valve in the 10mm pump was stuck open (although upon inspection it did not appear to be stuck), or that our 10mm pump was just worn out (donor car). The 11mm pump should not have increased our idle pressure that much. Regardless, it is better now!

[Mitch Wright]

We had a similar but different issue years ago with Datsun L series engines, the pressure relief valve was stuck in a batch of OEM oil pumps. What we would see was extremely high oil pressure at start up. Once we cleaned up the plunger so it wouldn't stick we would then shim (preload) the spring to get the oil pressure to the 70lb we wanted at 8000rpm hot. I am still a ways away from having any track data that is helpful. I am running the stock 2L WRX Subi pump for my 2004 engine, talking to the guys at Moore Performance in Pittsburgh felt it would fit my application. Now at that time I was planning on a KB pan, that has since change to a Dry Sump. Got some great info from John at Aviaid and a path to investigate.
More questions on which is the pump to use?? I get the frustration and been there many times on other projects but I find the investigation and finding the solution challenging fun.
I have a buddy who is good friends with Gary at ARE, when he (Gary) gets back from vacation I am going to pick his brain as well.
I see some good news and think you and Chad are zeroing in on the real issue.

[Sgt.Gator]

This post on Nasioc from KillerB to a member with too high oil pressures:

"Go back to a 10mm pump. The 11mm pushes ~36% more flow and unless the engine was built specifically for that you're pushing it into a wall... The bypass is made to flow x amount of oil based on the pump that is suposed to be based on the engine. So, an 11mm pump can cause pressure spikes leading to seal failures. In addition to adding excessive heat into the oil from continuously recirculating significant flow through the bypass all the time, but that's not the worst. Worse case you bypass a LOT and because the flow characteristics through the bypas are so terrible, you aerate the oil, which means aerated oil gets pumped into the bearings and air definitely does not lubricate as well as oil.

Also, for reference the 10mm pump flows less but at a higher 85psi and the 11mm flows more, but at a lower 78psi.

http://photos.killerbmotorsport.com/i.ashx?gallery=345327&mid=68584645&mt=Photo&standardsize=1600x1200

Edit: Don't even think about the JDM 12mm It's made for the Spec-C/WRC engines that have MUCH better crank rod oiling (and other bits) and 8K RPM rev limit from the factory."

I put the A360 pump in my new shortblock. I guess I'll try the A300.

A lot of good info in the thread quoted above, especially page 3, post 56 from KillerB about shims and flow: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2466900

[C.Plavan]

99.9% sure I have a 10cm oil pump. AJW stripped a 2006 wrx motor and threw everything on my 2013 wrx STI block.... Everything- td04, injectors, wiring harness everything. I never got a bill for a new oil pump (11cm). I'm not home, is it easy to see the part number on the pump?

[Sgt.Gator]

I would be REALLY surprised if they reused a 2006 oil pump. I don't know how to ID them once they are mounted though. You have to pull the timing covers off just to see it.

Do you have logs of your oil pressures? If you're oil pressure is not high, this won't help.

Edit: It appears 10MM pumps have a 10 in the upper left outer cover, 12MM have a 12, and 11MM have the number 76 or 78.
Makes sense to me!

[C.Plavan]

If you ever bought anything from AJW, you would understand. I replaced a lot of things on the motor before installing it....

My pressures are 80 to 85psi when warm another reason I'm almost positive I have the 10cm

Thanks for the tip on the numbers. I'll check when I get back Friday.

[Mitch Wright]

Great info

[Sgt.Gator]

A couple of additional thoughts:
The 11MM pump was developed to support the oil flow to Dual AVCS, which I don't have.
The factory specs also include using a journal bearing turbo. I have an upgraded ball bearing turbo which comes with an oil restrictor, again using less oil flow than the factory system.
And I'm using a factory oem shortblock, not a built block with looser specs.
I speculate that those three things are enough to cause the oil pressure to be too high on an 11mm pump.
Bigger is not always better!

[FFRSpec72]

A couple of additional thoughts:
The 11MM pump was developed to support the oil flow to Dual AVCS, which I don't have.


My JDM EJ207v7 has a 12mm pump stock (high revs). Also you should be getting your car ready for Pacific Raceways this weekeend !

[Sgt.Gator]

My JDM EJ207v7 has a 12mm pump stock (high revs). Also you should be getting your car ready for Pacific Raceways this weekeend !
Yes I should, but instead I'm hoping to get enough done to go up to ORP for an ORP Club track day on Sunday. I can't afford to keep paying race registration fees, hotel rooms, and long tows to run 15 minutes and discover my car is overheating again. No more races until I can run an all day track session with no problems!

PIR is my next shot at being back in the races, August 21-23. I hope to see your 818R there!

[C.Plavan]

Yes I should, but instead I'm hoping to get enough doen to go up to ORP for an ORP Club track day on Sunday. I can't afford to keep paying race registration fees, hotel rooms, and long tows to run 15 minutes and discover my car is overheating again. No more races until I can run an all day track session with no problems!

Welcome to my world since January :(

[Sgt.Gator]

Welcome to my world since January :(

Maybe we should trade cars for a weekend!

[C.Plavan]

I stuck my finger down on the upper left of the oil pump and pressed hard. .1%

I have a 11mm (78 backwards on my finger)

I'm wondering if I can change the oil pump in the car.

http://i.imgur.com/fTlFf8vl.jpg (http://imgur.com/fTlFf8v)

[Scargo]

Chad, Perhaps you could decipher what you just said?

[C.Plavan]

Chad, Perhaps you could decipher what you just said?

I was 99.9% sure I had a 10cm pump, the .1% proved me wrong. I have an 11cm oil pump (cast 78 in upper left outside of oil pump) if it was a "10" it would of been a 10cm pump. for some reason, the 11mm oil pump has a 78 mark. My mechanics mirror broke, so I just stuck my finger down there and pushed hard so the indentation of the casting mark showed up on my finger...... plain as day "78" (backwards of course)

I just ordered a 10cm oil pump for $126. I'm hoping I can change the oil pump in the car without pulling the motor.

[Wayne Presley]

You can change it in the car

[Scargo]

Though I'm just guessing, I would think pulling it/tranny would end up being less nerve-racking.
Having said that, I can't imagine you going to a 10. What makes you want to do that? Less volume? Perhaps if bearings/journals, etc. are really tight but seems like (from all I've read) and my personal experience, that the 11 rules race motors.

[C.Plavan]

You can change it in the car
Thanks Wayne. I'll give it a shot.


Though I'm just guessing, I would think pulling it/tranny would end up being less nerve-racking.
Having said that, I can't imagine you going to a 10. What makes you want to do that? Less volume? Perhaps if bearings/journals, etc. are really tight but seems like (from all I've read) and my personal experience, that the 11 rules race motors.

We both have stock tolerances. The 11cm pump is definitely not working for us. Hopefully going to a 10cm with the Spintric Air/oil separator will work wonders. We have to try something.

[Tamra]

Glyn, read above to the info Gator and I and others posted. There are many reasons a 10 can be better (less oil bypassing is primary benefit. The 11mm bypasses at 75psi. When it starts bypassing, oil heats up and you also risk aerating the oil. The 10mm bypasses at 85psi and since it is pumping less it is less likely to cavitate). As long as the 10mm can keep up with his oiling needs, then it is the best choice. Smallest pump that meets your needs = best. Considering Chad's problems it seems like a good idea.

Chad, we swapped the oil pump in the car. You'll have to remove the seats, the firewall, and the timing belt to access it. You can leave the fuel tank most likely.

While you're at it, you might want to consider adding shims to raise the bypass. Also, check the movement of the piston (and possibly some super fine sand paper on the piston to make sure it doesn't have any burs to hang up) before you install it. There have been instances of them getting stuck in bypass mode if there's a bur.

[C.Plavan]

Gator do we want to shim the 10cm? I'm thinking not since the lower flow, higher pressure compared to the 11cm we have. I can't think, I just got back from 4 days in Vegas.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I stuck my finger down on the upper left of the oil pump and pressed hard. .1%
I have a 11mm (78 backwards on my finger)
I'm wondering if I can change the oil pump in the car.
http://i.imgur.com/fTlFf8vl.jpg (http://imgur.com/fTlFf8v)

Chad
all the pumps are 78mm rotors, How do you know you have a 11mm.
Am I missing something here?


Bob

[C.Plavan]

Chad
all the pumps are 78mm rotors, How do you know you have a 11mm.
Am I missing something here?


Bob

Read post 126 by Gator. They have identifier on each pump.

[Scargo]

There are many reasons a 10 can be better (less oil bypassing is primary benefit. The 11mm bypasses at 75psi. When it starts bypassing, oil heats up and you also risk aerating the oil. The 10mm bypasses at 85psi and since it is pumping less it is less likely to cavitate). As long as the 10mm can keep up with his oiling needs, then it is the best choice. Smallest pump that meets your needs = best. Considering Chad's problems it seems like a good idea.

"As long as the 10mm can keep up with his oiling needs" is the key phrase. What you're saying may be so, but are you talking a stock motor or what level of modification and power? What kind of racing?
I am concerned with the rigors of extended racing, heat generated-building up and oil thinning. What about when you add an external oil filter, oil cooler(s), valves, tanks, and long hoses to put it all together? There is pressure drop from all that. I'm well aware of recirculating through the bypass as being problematic. You can benefit from cleaning up the pump internals and improving the flow in the engine's passageways. All mine have been radiused, enlarged and smoothed.
I don't think the 11mm pump is the problem. I know too many people using them in track motors.

[C.Plavan]

Clearly the 11cm pumps are not working, so I don't know what you are trying to say.

[DodgyTim]

I can't get my head around why this is happening to the dry sump cars unless it is a scavenge issue leading high oil level inside the motor.
I've seen it written on other forums that the oil (from the bypass) recirculates around the pump, but in other places I've seen it writtten that it recirculates to the sump.
If the oil bypass goes to the sump a smaller oil pump may definitely help: oil volume needing to be scavenged (oil used by the motor + bypass oil) would be less
Edit: it appears to circulate the pump only :confused:
44070

[Scargo]

I may have missed something, but I don't see how you can say that "clearly the 11mm pumps are not working". As I say, I have my track motor in the STi (and lots of hours on it) and a lot of friends with Subie track cars. I have that anecdotal and experiential evidence that the pump does work with cars with similar or lesser setups. It is a very "standard" pump to run in a built motor.
I'm hard-pressed to see how dry-sump affects the choice of pump.

[DodgyTim]

.
I'm hard-pressed to see how dry-sump affects the choice of pump.
Only that this specific system uses the oem pump for oil pressure to the motor, and the dry sump pump to remove it. The second one has to flow more than the first one ;)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I went back and pulled a bunch of logs pre and post dry sump, which also is pre and post new shortblock/oem oil pump. I only have one log with the new shortblock and the wet sump:

The ORANGE lines are RPM, the BLUE lines are Oil Pressure, the Red Line is Oil Temperature.
Chronologically

May 2014, Wet Sump, 20 minute race in Spokane. Oil never goes over 186 degrees, oil pressure is flat 60-90 psi:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tHUrYaVv73qzD7WqtHcMiWALXTjC1YnAOI41Padb7hk=w1122-h597-no


June 2015, New Shortblock, New Oil Pump, Wet Sump. The first indication that my oil pressures are too high. After a warm up I hit the track and the oil pressures are too high for warm oil. Session cut short when vacuum line comes off EWG:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/F2yi5al0HMHXgDF93lL5JpYJ2qgYohJDBkE-l2wLCm0=w1122-h600-no.

Sgt.Gator,
In the 2 graphs above they are both wet sumps. But the second has unstable oil pressure.
In my mind the only two ways to get to 160psi.
1. sticky pressure relief valve.
2. there is so much extra oil flowing that the relief valve is wide open but can't handle all the extra oil.
Is it possible that there is a batch of oil pump out there that you and Chad both got a bad one.
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad, that's an interesting way to check!

At least you know now what might be the problem....I have my new 10MM in and am headed to ORP in the morning. It will be 100 degrees there. This will be a good test and I'll let ya'll know right away when I get back the results.

I didn't shim it.

Bob in the two graphs above the May 2014 was on my old 2005 shortblock with a 10MM pump. The one with the insane high pressures is the new oem shorblock EJ257 with the 11 MM upgrade pump.

Fingers crossed.

BTW, I think all the street guys never see this issue even with 350HP oem block street machines because they don't drive around for 30 minutes at WOT. If you look at my Dyno the oil never gets hot because it's a quick pull then a few minutes of idling, despite the crazy high oil pressures.

Another comment I saw on this, a regular oil pressure analog gauge won't catch the crazy high points, they happen too quickly. Only with a fast datalogger like my AIM MXL will you capture it. The analog gauge will show the overall average too high pressure though.

Scargo this doesn't usually happen to high HP forged builds because of the looser tolerances most builders use.

We'll know Friday by Noon!

[C.Plavan]

Chad, that's an interesting way to check!

At least you know now what might be the problem....I have my new 10MM in and am headed to ORP in the morning. It will be 100 degrees there. This will be a good test and I'll let ya'll know right away when I get back the results.

I didn't shim it.

Bob in the two graphs above the May 2014 was on my old 2005 shortblock with a 10MM pump. The one with the insane high pressures is the new oem shorblock EJ257 with the 11 MM upgrade pump.

Fingers crossed.

BTW, I think all the street guys never see this issue even with 350HP oem block street machines because they don't drive around for 30 minutes at WOT. If you look at my Dyno the oil never gets hot because it's a quick pull then a few minutes of idling, despite the crazy high oil pressures.

Another comment I saw on this, a regular oil pressure analog gauge won't catch the crazy high points, they happen too quickly. Only with a fast datalogger like my AIM MXL will you capture it. The analog gauge will show the overall average too high pressure though.

Scargo this doesn't usually happen to high HP forged builds because of the looser tolerances most builders use.

We'll know Friday by Noon!

Good luck! Post after the first session if you can.

[Sgt.Gator]

Good luck! Post after the first session if you can.

FAIL!

Oil pressures still too high. Oil temp follows it up. So it's not the 10MM vs 11MM pumps.

I have learned a couple of things:
The oil pressure is fine under 2000 RPM. At 2000 and above the pressure soars. I idle in the paddock all morning and oil pressure will level out when the oil temps reach 180. As soon as I rev the engine above 2000 the pressures go crazy high. Back under 2000 the pressure is normal. Then go out on the track revving to 6K oil pressure goes nuts and temps will follow in 10 minutes. Pull back into the paddock with oil at 260 degrees, hold the throttle at 1500 RPM, the pressure goes back to a solid 50-60 psi, and temps drop pretty quickly.

So what is happening at 2,000 RPM to cause a dramatic change in oil pressure?

The obvious test is to disconnect and plug up the dry sump, put the wet sump pan in, and see what happens. Now I know I don't need to go to the track, I can do this test in my garage.

But swapping the pans is a pain. I may have an easier test. Disconnect the pump and tank lines. Put the former scavenge lines into a bucket of oil just below the engine. Put the line that feeds the oem pump into the bucket. Effectively creating a wet sump "pan".

Run the engine and see what happens above 2,000 RPM. If oil pressures are normal it's definitely something about the way the dry sump is working.

I'll edit this post later with the data log graph.

Sorry Chad, we still have work to do!

[C.Plavan]

Boooooooooo. Well, I'll keep the 11cm pump in there for now and see if it is aeration in the oil after I install the Spintric. My oil pressures are not getting as high as yours on the gauge. But I'm not data logging it.

But aeration would cause the pressure to go down.... So confused.

[Tamra]

Reading your data logs above, I see that your wet sump was working great (in terms of oil pressure/temp) and then you put in a built short block and new oil pump, and your oil pressures spiked. You then switched to the dry sump and problem continues. You tried the smaller pump today and eliminated it as the problem. It seems to me that what's left is something with the built short block. Did you change the bearing clearances? Did you change the turbo? Did you change anything like avcs?

[Sgt.Gator]

Reading your data logs above, I see that your wet sump was working great (in terms of oil pressure/temp) and then you put in a built short block and new oil pump, and your oil pressures spiked. You then switched to the dry sump and problem continues. You tried the smaller pump today and eliminated it as the problem. It seems to me that what's left is something with the built short block. Did you change the bearing clearances? Did you change the turbo? Did you change anything like avcs?

OEM shortblock, not built. Straight from the Subaru parts bin. The car is setup exactly the same as before.
I'll try the wet sump bucket experiment this weekend.

The only other "fix" that I can think of is a larger pulley on the pump to slow it down. No other users have needed it though.

[walt555]

FAIL!

Oil pressures still too high. Oil temp follows it up. So it's not the 10MM vs 11MM pumps.

I have learned a couple of things:
The oil pressure is fine under 2000 RPM. At 2000 and above the pressure soars. I idle in the paddock all morning and oil pressure will level out when the oil temps reach 180. As soon as I rev the engine above 2000 the pressures go crazy high. Back under 2000 the pressure is normal. Then go out on the track revving to 6K oil pressure goes nuts and temps will follow in 10 minutes. Pull back into the paddock with oil at 260 degrees, hold the throttle at 1500 RPM, the pressure goes back to a solid 50-60 psi, and temps drop pretty quickly.

So what is happening at 2,000 RPM to cause a dramatic change in oil pressure?

The obvious test is to disconnect and plug up the dry sump, put the wet sump pan in, and see what happens. Now I know I don't need to go to the track, I can do this test in my garage.

But swapping the pans is a pain. I may have an easier test. Disconnect the pump and tank lines. Put the former scavenge lines into a bucket of oil just below the engine. Put the line that feeds the oem pump into the bucket. Effectively creating a wet sump "pan".

Run the engine and see what happens above 2,000 RPM. If oil pressures are normal it's definitely something about the way the dry sump is working.

I'll edit this post later with the data log graph.

Sorry Chad, we still have work to do!

Does the crazy oil pressure sound like the pressure regulator in the pump is stuck?

[Sgt.Gator]

Does the crazy oil pressure sound like the pressure regulator in the pump is stuck?

The probability of both a new 11MM and a new 10MM both having that problem is extremely small.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This problem is driving me crazy, and I don't even have it.
I didn't read this anywhere, or have any supporting data, so take it how you desire.

On thing that is special on this dry sump system is that it uses the existing engine oil pump. The pumps intake hose is maybe 4ft long running to the bottom of the sump tank. During high usage (high rpm & hot thin oil) the pump has to suck a lot of oil through the 4ft hose.

Hydraulic pumps systems are great at pushing fluid. But on the suction side of the pump. It is really the ambient air pressure in the sump pushing the fluid to the pump. If the pump is pushing oil faster than air pressure can push it in the hose vacuum void will occur in the 4 ft pipe. Every time a void gets to the pump, this could be the cause of the unstable pulsing of the pressure.
Does this make sense?

Bob

Chad and Sgt.Gator, Can you post a sketch of your systems showing where your filters and coolers are in the circuit.

[C.Plavan]

The hose from the bottom of my tank is about 3 feet long that goes to the dry sump plate (pump). That is the only suction. The coolers, filter (stock) is all "push" back to the tank.

[DodgyTim]

Gator, same sensors used in all data logs? New motor didn't come with a new sensor?

[Mitch Wright]

Gator didn't have a pressure/temp issue with a wet sump of the 2014 engine. Installs New Subie short block, oil pressure issues with the wet sump, Installs Element dry sump system, same issue very high OP which after a few laps runs the oil temp up. The pressure relief valve opens at 78-90psi depending on the OE pump used. Both Chad and Gator have New Subaru 2.5 short blocks. A handful of sources are saying the way the bypass works in these engines it will super heat the oil which makes perfect sense.
Gator has seen the same problem on both the wet and dry sump on the new short block, there must be something different between the 2014 short block and the new one.
Oil passage or gasket that could be blocking a passage??
An incomplete machining process in the oiling system??
A piece of foreign material in the system that restricting the oiling system causing excessive oil pressure?? (140-160 psi is nuts, I have never run more than 75-85lb hot on any other race engine, none were Subarus and some were dry sumps)
Like Bob I find this this is crazy and baffling. Talking to Phil at Element it appears that this is not an issue that he has experience with the time attack cars. Granted they don't usually spend as much time on track but are making BIG power. Talking to Andrew at Phoenix performance running 400hp at the crank didn't have oil temp issues running 2-3 hour races.
So again what is different in the OEM replacement short block or the bolt on parts put on the engine that are different from the 2014 wet sump engine??
It has to be a simple peice to the puzzle that is missing or is being over looked.

[Sgt.Gator]

The oil pressure data is probably not related to the oil temp problem.
I was wondering about the goofy spikes and why it went wild at 2,000 RPM. Then I discovered my oil pressure sender has a range of 0-150 psi, so how could it be logging 170-180-200-212 psi?
Cutting thru a bunch of testing, the unit displays 212 psi when the sender is disconnected. It is a VDO resistor sender. An ohm meter showed the problem, the sender is sending goofy signals.

A new sender is on order. Hopefully this will fix the oil pressure problem, which was never really a problem!

However that doesn't fix the oil temp problem. But at least I can quit worrying about oil pressures, at least for now. I did get a heck of an education on Subaru oil pumps.:)

So back to the temp issue. In answer to Bob, my tank is probably 6 feet horizontally distant, but the bottom is 6" higher than the oil pump intake. So gravity feeds the pump inlet at all times although the pump is pulling it faster than gravity would push it.

I know the temp sender is good and the location is excellent. In the passenger compartment away from engine and exhaust, on the line from the tank back to the sump pan. You can see it on the tranny tunnel. And I've verified temps with an IR laser thermometer.
Pics:

Pump to cooler:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Dk6PIGZvCktVC0IvR-eFzEQWczGWW8OAKEE4e-pDpiM=w1268-h951-no


Tank and Temp Sender:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/R6ae5332KaS_cVJNK4YxV806AvG03XA8xV79CzXTxsU=w1268-h951-no

Sump Pan:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/B2E8AiMUx1-HsHtnzUFaNP53jHfku4_tAyGVJguY8-U=w535-h951-no

Venting of cam covers to former PCV to tank:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6UFJrwbx4mWo-l47mT_s7KIY9FenKP_umkS-b4hUH90=w1268-h951-no

Catch Can Vent from Dry Sump Tank:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pdfXfpihZFtu1zK-FgTxgM6-TMgTGTzYusFx-7-_GfI=w1268-h951-no

Thanks Everyone for your HELP! I really appreciate it.

[walt555]

The probability of both a new 11MM and a new 10MM both having that problem is extremely small.
Dumb question did you prep the pump before installing like tamara?

[Sgt.Gator]

Dumb question did you prep the pump before installing like tamara?

No, they were both stock from Subaru.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Sgt.Gator
I added a green line to your chart in an attempt to filter out the noise pressure sensor. It appears the you were losing pressure the same time the temp shot up.

Also the temp issue only happened to you with the dry sump.
So the dry sump again seems to be a common factor with the heat rise.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44108&d=1438496052

[Bob_n_Cincy]

As insurance against hoses collapsing, I would ad this to the 3 hoses connected to the engine plate.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44109&d=1438500955


https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3228-600

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/MkMdlYrSearchCmd?searchType=MkMdlYrSearch&Nty=0&catalogId=10002&Ne=1%2B2%2B3%2B13%2B1147708%2B1147708&langId=-1&itemPerPage=30&storeId=10001&N=4294966575+4294945013

[Tamra]

There have been many reported cases of the relief valve being stuck open from the factory or having a bur that causes it to stick. It is more common on the 11mm. Subaru's tolerances and build quality arent perfect, unfortunately. The chances of both having the problem is unlikely though, but not impossible. I would also think a new engine would be good, but it is possible there is a defect. I would go back exactly to your old "good" setup with the wet sump to see if there's a problem (could narrow it down to the new block).

Or, I'd pick up a cheap engine, toss it in OEM style, and run it to see if the problem occurs. Then start adding stuff back until the problem is recreated.

[Mitch Wright]

If I recall correctly you can get to the pressure relief valve by removing the timing belt covers.
Bob, it looks like to me like the oil pressure average across the green line is still really high, 110-115psi as the oil temp starts to climb. Again not having Subaru engine experience but passed experience we would shoot for lowest pressure we needed with a safety margin which is generally 65-75lb hot at the on track RPM operating range which would put us 15-30lb at idol depending on the engine. And start up OP could be has high as 100psi at warm-up RPM.

[C.Plavan]

Sgt.Gator
I added a green line to your chart in an attempt to filter out the noise pressure sensor. It appears the you were losing pressure the same time the temp shot up.

Also the temp issue only happened to you with the dry sump.
So the dry sump again seems to be a common factor with the heat rise.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44108&d=1438496052

That is exactly what would happen if aeration is occurring.

[C.Plavan]

Additionally, I will install the Spintric before installing the 10cm oil pump and run a test day. That way I (We) can rule out the pump, and rule in oil aeration as a problem if the Spintric solves the problem. (I looked into top of oil tank last test, it was fully aerated) If it does not solve the problem, I have no choice but to install the 10cm oil pump to see if that makes a difference.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Situation when problem occurs.
A. only happens with dry sumps.
B. only happens after 10-20 minutes of hard track driving.
C. Adding oil coolers does not help
D. problem has occurred on 2.5L engines with 11mm pumps.

Are we down to 3 possible causes?
1. Oil Aeration causing foam instead of oil to be pumped through the engine.
2. One or more of the 3 suction lines collapsing at high flow and high heat.
3. The bypass valve sticking open causing drop in oil pressure.

Are there others that should be added to this list?
Please help me complete this list
Bob

[Mitch Wright]

Bob, I would add E: Oil pressure 30-45lb higher with 11mm OE oil pump/Dry Sump than with the 2014 Wet Sump
F) By pass sticking open causing the oil aeration due to oil circulation in the pump.
I get the fact that oil aeration will cause oil temp to rise but would have thought to cause the pressure to drop, I don't see that on the data provided.
I need to better understand the flow path through the pump and why the pressure would run so much higher that with the wet sump.
Reading back through the tread Gator you think that that the OP sender is bad causing the high OP readings. It will be interesting to see the data with the new sender and if the OP is back to what I would think is normal.

[Sgt.Gator]

Bob and Mitch,
I agree I had no oil temp problems for two years of wet sump racing. In some cases it was almost too cold! And neither did Phoenix performance when they raced it in the Grand Am Cup enduros, pushing it harder than I ever have.

I would add another possible cause, aeration due to the scavenge pump spinning at 135% faster than crank speed. Element Tuning and Aviaid say scavenge only pumps shouldn't do that, only the pumps with pressure stages, but it's the cheapest thing for me to change right now. Monday I'm ordering a 6" pump pulley that will slow it down to 92% of crank speed.

Here's my graph from ORP last Friday. It was 102 degrees air temp, 153 degrees track temp. (I had my IR thermometer out checking things).

Now keeping in mind my oil pressures are noisy and probably not this high, but using an average line like Bob has done:

Lap 2:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Yhqe6BclJ10ExfyL5QLZ-HX7ZIMl-ZfhEh45Ylg_x3g=w1174-h561-no

Pretty Normal


Lap 3 superimposed on Lap 2 with the oil pressure in light blue:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TMVYCvAyxPKbd4hhTCr2S4PDLjvYzmwAfpJFgDz0Oq8=w1176-h564-no

Still normal, but temp is up a bit.

Lap 4, superimposed with oil pressure in lime green:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xhT-O9NbczzmVcl8XWzgg1EtHLr5NV5pHf0HmZjDnUk=w1177-h562-no

Dramatic difference in pressure (lower) followed 40-60 seconds later by climbing temps. Remember my temp sender is on the oil path from the tank back to the engine, so pretty much ALL the oil has to get hotter for this to change so it lags what is going on in the engine. At 260 degrees I backed way off. I think this is consistent with aeration?

Finally Lap 5 and sitting in the paddock for almost 10 minutes. As soon as the rpms drop and I take it easy the temps start creeping down. After several minutes idling in the paddock they are back to a normal 221 degrees:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Ao72ngUo7ggll2i8UrhR_FBtFjnSVynPyByqr9lvpXQ=w1095-h543-no

I think this is all consistent with aeration. I'm hoping to hear if Chad's Spintric does the trick and if my pulley makes a difference.

Tamra, before I go thru all the work of swapping in the wet sump I'm going to give the bigger pulley a shot. If that doesn't work I'll swap it back. And I also have my 11MM pump I could examine for burrs and stuck valve, but I'm not sure I would know what to "see" unless it's really obvious.
More R&D!
Thanks for your help.
Gator

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Great info Sgt.Gator,
Do you think that there is any way a collapsing hose is blocking oil to the pump and causing what oil is there to aerate?
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Hi Bob,
Thanks.
Highly unlikely that two -12AN braided hoses could collapse that far. And if they collapsed and cut off oil to the scavenge pump the oil pressure would go to zero in about 10 seconds as all the oil gets pulled out of the tank and the dry sump pan fills up.

Since I've come this far here's a couple of pics of the Silver Eagle:

2007 post Grand Am cup trim when they used it in Time Attack with Tarzan Yamada driving:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PODYL_YAjfrQydGpJRXvLh-rF7mHzm8-NlDGefpH4zU=w965-h682-no

May 2014 in Spokane:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bhWawjCy8ALLLWyrsSDcLGplBlRZ_AkuzheFDZydauE=w1332-h951-no

And close today, minus the front splitter/air dam and rear wing while testing the new engine:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/eyLCE7q9H4R7O02opkBg_mQfoqyfNsjz1ddtzZUJcz0=w1427-h951-no

And finally some friends put the family on while I was helping another racer in the pre-grid:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mlEN3D0onxJru7HOBX2WDFh7CZvLWFdLz6MrVTNih4s=w1691-h951-no

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Bob,
Thanks.
Highly unlikely that two -12AN braided hoses could collapse that far. And if they collapsed and cut off oil to the scavenge pump the oil pressure would go to zero in about 10 seconds as all the oil gets pulled out of the tank and the dry sump pan fills up.


Great looking pictures.
I'm really looking forward to doing some track days.

What if the Subaru oil pump is collapsing the hose from the sump tank?
Where that hose would be very restricted but not totally.
Bob

[Mitch Wright]

Sgt Gator.

I agree and it make sense that the aeration is the likely cause of the temps spiking. Are you not concerned with the oil pressure being so high causing the by-pass to open?? Or am I still looking at a graph with a faulty sender?

Nice looking Car BTW. Dave Rosenblum had it at Miller Motorsports Park I think 2008 and offered me a chance to take a few laps in it during the test day. Unfortunately I ended up getting busy and never made the time.

[Sgt.Gator]

I guess either of your two scenarios is possible. I'll have to research that more.

[Sgt.Gator]

Sgt Gator.

I agree and it make sense that the aeration is the likely cause of the temps spiking. Are you not concerned with the oil pressure being so high causing the by-pass to open?? Or am I still looking at a graph with a faulty sender?

Nice looking Car BTW. Dave Rosenblum had it at Miller Motorsports Park I think 2008 and offered me a chance to take a few laps in it during the test day. Unfortunately I ended up getting busy and never made the time.
Thanks. The first pic must be Miller, you must have been there when they took that shot.

Those graphs are the bad sender. I ordered the new one Sunday from Pegasus. Hopefully it will be here by Friday. There are ORP track days available August 16-17-18, I'd like to have the new pulley and sender in by then.

[Mitch Wright]

I was the Director of Racing and Track Operations at Miller for 5 years. 6 months of that was while we were finishing construction for our April 2006 opening. You are right that photo was taken on the Miller front straight just off the last turn, the car is facing counter to race direction.

[FFRSpec72]

I was the Director of Racing and Track Operations at Miller for 5 years. 6 months of that was while we were finishing construction for our April 2006 opening. You are right that photo was taken on the Miller front straight just off the last turn, the car is facing counter to race direction.

So what's up will Miller closing ?

[C.Plavan]

I dropped off the oil tank to have the additional aluminum bungs welded on for the Spintric and oil temp sender (that I wont use...lol)

[Wayne Presley]

I dropped off the oil tank to have the additional aluminum bungs welded on for the Spintric and oil temp sender (that I wont use...lol)

You will use it or so help me I'll send you to your room without dinner!

[Mitch Wright]

Miller is not closing, the Tooele County Commission has narrowed down a group of 10 potential buyers down to 2. From what I was told last week the commission should be announcing who the new owner will be late this week and have said the track will be open in 2016 and beyond. Which is good news but a deal is not done until the contract is signed.

[Sgt.Gator]

The new oil pressure sender should arrive Friday.

Finding a pump pulley has been a little more challenging. All the larger ones seem to have 6 grooves instead of four, or the wrong shaft size. I think you can run a 4 rib belt on a 6 groove pulley and be ok, but I'd rather find the correct pulley. Anything larger than 4" diameter, with 4 grooves and a 5/8" shaft is what I need.

The good news is that I have found a couple of underdrive crank pulleys. Generally most lightweight Subaru crank pulleys are still the stock size, but there are a couple of true undersize ones. So I've ordered an OBX billet underdrive that they claim is a 25% reduction. The theory being that the stock crank pulley is driving the dry sump at 135% of crank speed. This should bring it down to parity, and if I can find a larger pump pulley I can slow it down even more.

The underdrive crank pulley also has the advantage of driving the power steering pump and alternator at 25% slower rpm. A good thing for race engine components that live in the 4K to 6.5 K range for long periods. Not so good for a DD idling in traffic a lot. I've been running an underdrive crank pulley on my Acura Integra race car for 4 years with no problems, so I don't expect any here.

I have thought of one "test". The tank is sitting next to me in the cockpit and I can clearly hear the air and oil running into it. Tomorrow I'm going to run the car up thru a warm up and on up to a few stints of 6K RPM and see if I can hear any changes in the sound. For example if the rushing river oil sound suddenly becomes much quieter because the oil is becoming a mass of foam, and I can graph that change in sound time (stopwatch) to a change in oil pressure and temps in the data.

Eventually we'll hit on the solution!

[Mitch Wright]

A solution has to getting close, I can feel it.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Bob,
Thanks.
Highly unlikely that two -12AN braided hoses could collapse that far. And if they collapsed and cut off oil to the scavenge pump the oil pressure would go to zero in about 10 seconds as all the oil gets pulled out of the tank and the dry sump pan fills up.


Exactly,
Chad was feeling a big power drop when this happened. I suspect from the block being full of oil.
Then the oil would get aerated and heated by the spinning crank.

Chad,
I will pay you the $100 for the springs in the 3 hoses. (with or without the spintric)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?15502-Oil-issues-Dry-Sump-Accusump-for-road-racing&p=207102&viewfull=1#post207102

If it works, you have to promise to not sell the car.
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Exactly,
Chad was feeling a big power drop when this happened. I suspect from the block being full of oil.
Then the oil would get aerated and heated by the spinning crank.
Bob

Possibly if the pump is being driven at 135% crank speed it is creating too much suction and could cause the scavenge lines to restrict or partially collapse. Or it's sucking so much air with the oil that is creating aeration.
I just calculated the effect a 25% smaller crank pulley will have: the pump will turn at 75% of crank speed. That's close enough to the "normal" 50-65% crank speed on a pressure dry sump systems that it should fix the problem, if that is the problem!

[C.Plavan]

My oil pressure stays the same when it happens. I really think its oil aeration, but I thought I had this problem licked 75 times by now. If the Spintric does not work, I will try both the underdrive and springs.

Got the oil tank back with the extra Spintric port/fitting-

What's that on the bottom of the tank? :P

http://i.imgur.com/hVsHsWVl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hgS3Z1El.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QTIIRs8l.jpg

[Sgt.Gator]

I just did my garage test. Everything the same as on the track last Friday.

A few notes to consider when you look at the data:

1) The car is sitting still. There is no airflow thru any coolers except when the radiator fans kick on.

2) The car is under virtually no load, except the load to spin the rpm up.

3) The car is never in boost. Since there is no load, there is no boost.

Here's the data, this covers 40 minutes. The oil temp is the bolded red line. RPM is the black line. I also have water temp and boost plotted.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/M-HWRQZjSquJEBAHhIU2bFr4Rbr-rw4KKqb0HXWObX8=w1183-h593-no


Analysis:
It took a long time to get to 200 degrees, a full 20 minutes. You can see at 16:40 the oil temp leveled out at 180 degrees, so at 17:30 I started revving the engine to get the temps to rise. They immediately responded.

Then at 21 minutes I went back to idle and the temps started dropping.

At 24:00 minutes I started revving the engine again and in only 6 minutes it went from 205 degrees to 248 degrees where I called a halt to the revving. And again in only 6 minutes of idling the temps dropped back to 205 degrees.

And it's not a case of water temps causing the engine to overheat, the water lags behind the oil temps.

Conclusion: The oil temps are not caused by high engine loads, boost, FMIC heat, air flow thru coolers, inadequate coolers, or anything else. They appear to be strictly dependent on RPM.

Would you expect a wet sump engine to heat up like this just from revving the engine? Thoughts from the community?

The good news is I don't have to spend money on track time and towing until I can at least get it solved in my driveway.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I just did my garage test. Everything the same as on the track last Friday.

A few notes to consider when you look at the data:

1) The car is sitting still. There is no airflow thru any coolers except when the radiator fans kick on.

2) The car is under virtually no load, except the load to spin the rpm up.

3) The car is never in boost. Since there is no load, there is no boost.

Here's the data, this covers 40 minutes. The oil temp is the bolded red line. RPM is the black line. I also have water temp and boost plotted.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/M-HWRQZjSquJEBAHhIU2bFr4Rbr-rw4KKqb0HXWObX8=w1183-h593-no


Analysis:
It took a long time to get to 200 degrees, a full 20 minutes. You can see at 16:40 the oil temp leveled out at 180 degrees, so at 17:30 I started revving the engine to get the temps to rise. They immediately responded.

Then at 21 minutes I went back to idle and the temps started dropping.

At 24:00 minutes I started revving the engine again and in only 6 minutes it went from 205 degrees to 248 degrees where I called a halt to the revving. And again in only 6 minutes of idling the temps dropped back to 205 degrees.

And it's not a case of water temps causing the engine to overheat, the water lags behind the oil temps.

Conclusion: The oil temps are not caused by high engine loads, boost, FMIC heat, air flow thru coolers, inadequate coolers, or anything else. They appear to be strictly dependent on RPM.

Would you expect a wet sump engine to heat up like this just from revving the engine? Thoughts from the community?

The good news is I don't have to spend money on track time and towing until I can at least get it solved in my driveway.


Great info Gator,
It looks like the oil temp starts rising at anything above 4000 RPM or so. Look at the 19 minute or the 26:40 mark.
Bob

[305mouse]

Crazy question, what did the Subaru WRC cars use for oiling needs? They're at WOT the whole time too.

[FFRSpec72]

I thought that Element Tuning had already tested what they sell ?

[Sgt.Gator]

Crazy question, what did the Subaru WRC cars use for oiling needs? They're at WOT the whole time too.

They were using Cosworth oil baffles, I know that because I bought several of them from Vermont Sportscar, the team that runs the Subaru Rally Team, when they changed classes and weren't using them anymore. If you want one I'll sell it to you!
Anyway in the dirt they don't see the high G's in corners we will. And even on the tarmac sections they don't create the Gs an 818 will create.

[Sgt.Gator]

I thought that Element Tuning had already tested what they sell ?

Tony I thought so too. But maybe because they run Time Attack and maybe because they see high oil temps and put on big oil coolers that get thru a TA session they don't see the longer time problems that we will, especially running Enduros. It is baffling to me.
Or maybe I have installed the thing wrong and I'm missing my mistake.

[Mitch Wright]

Gator,
Was the test done with the under drive pulley and new OP sender? Is the oil pressure what you are used to seeing and did you see the same drop in pressure as the oil temp got in the 240 range?
I would think the rally guys could/would see this problem, a stage can be as long as 40 miles and a 1/2 hour of run time at high RPM. Wonder who is the Engine builder for Vermont Sports Car??

[DodgyTim]

Sgt.Gator do you have an optical/laser tacho?44176
They aren't expensive (about $20), and confirming that the pump speed stays proportional (say 135%) to the motor speed at above 4000 rpm would eliminate the belt drive as a cause.
Nearly every other dry sump seems to use a cogged belt, the serpentine belt is unusual.

[Sgt.Gator]

Gator,
Was the test done with the under drive pulley and new OP sender? Is the oil pressure what you are used to seeing and did you see the same drop in pressure as the oil temp got in the 240 range?
I would think the rally guys could/would see this problem, a stage can be as long as 40 miles and a 1/2 hour of run time at high RPM. Wonder who is the Engine builder for Vermont Sports Car??

No this was the malfunctioning oil pressure sender so I didn't bother to plot it. I have the data, it jsut confuses the graph. And it's the same stock crank pulley. As SOON as the underdrive pulley arrives I will be repeating the test for sure. The pulley should arrive August 10 to 13th.

Check out their Project Cars Specs: http://vtcar.com/projects/

[Sgt.Gator]

Sgt.Gator do you have an optical/laser tacho?44176
They aren't expensive (about $20), and confirming that the pump speed stays proportional (say 135%) to the motor speed at above 4000 rpm would eliminate the belt drive as a cause.
Nearly every other dry sump seems to use a cogged belt, the serpentine belt is unusual.

I don't have one, it would be useful. Thanks.

[C.Plavan]

Did you look down into the oil tank after you ran it? I bet you will see lots of bubbles/foam, like I did.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This is a related article I found on the Spintric.

Reducing Aeration
Oil aeration in dry-sump lubrication systems can lead to lower lubrication efficiency by encouraging cavitation in the oil pump. The level of aeration in the oil is determined by a range of factors, including engine speed, oil type and oil condition, and can be a particular problem in high-revving large-displacement drag race engines. Not only does the high rpm of components such as the crank churn the oil to a greater extent, the oil also flows through the lubrication system faster. This means it has less time to rest in the sump or the oil tank, where air bubbles would naturally separate out.
Aeration caused by the rotating assemblies within the engine is not the only problem; it is also contributed to by the pump mechanism in dry-sump systems. Here the aeration occurs at the scavenge stage of the pump. The oil sucked into the pump is more of an air-oil foam, and as the oil is pulled between the pump's gars it is further aerated, which is why oil tank design is of utmost importance for maintaining oil condition.
However, a new device developed by California-based Armstrong Race Engines (ARE) claims to help reduce this problem considerably. A bolt-on fitment to existing lubrication systems, the device is called the Spintric, and it relies on internal channels to 'spin' the oil and encourage air bubbles to separate. The device fits on the return line to the oil tank, and the aerated scavenged oil is forced through it, with separated air being channeled through one outlet and oil to the oil tank through another.
Spintric has no moving parts, and Gary Armstrong, the inventor of the device and owner of ARE, claims that it separates between 30 and 70% of the air from the oil, depending on engine revs. Ultimately this means there is less air entering the oil tank, allowing the internal features of the tank to better remove the remaining oil.

- Lawrence Butcher, DRAG race technology special report

[Sgt.Gator]

Did you look down into the oil tank after you ran it? I bet you will see lots of bubbles/foam, like I did.

No I didn't. That thing is dang HOT!

[Sgt.Gator]

This is a related article I found on the Spintric.

Reducing Aeration
Oil aeration in dry-sump lubrication systems can lead to lower lubrication efficiency by encouraging cavitation in the oil pump. The level of aeration in the oil is determined by a range of factors, including engine speed, oil type and oil condition, and can be a particular problem in high-revving large-displacement drag race engines. Not only does the high rpm of components such as the crank churn the oil to a greater extent, the oil also flows through the lubrication system faster. This means it has less time to rest in the sump or the oil tank, where air bubbles would naturally separate out.
Aeration caused by the rotating assemblies within the engine is not the only problem; it is also contributed to by the pump mechanism in dry-sump systems. Here the aeration occurs at the scavenge stage of the pump. The oil sucked into the pump is more of an air-oil foam, and as the oil is pulled between the pump's gars it is further aerated, which is why oil tank design is of utmost importance for maintaining oil condition.
However, a new device developed by California-based Armstrong Race Engines (ARE) claims to help reduce this problem considerably. A bolt-on fitment to existing lubrication systems, the device is called the Spintric, and it relies on internal channels to 'spin' the oil and encourage air bubbles to separate. The device fits on the return line to the oil tank, and the aerated scavenged oil is forced through it, with separated air being channeled through one outlet and oil to the oil tank through another.
Spintric has no moving parts, and Gary Armstrong, the inventor of the device and owner of ARE, claims that it separates between 30 and 70% of the air from the oil, depending on engine revs. Ultimately this means there is less air entering the oil tank, allowing the internal features of the tank to better remove the remaining oil.

- Lawrence Butcher, DRAG race technology special report

Yep. I'm hoping the $80 underdrive will work without the $800 Spintric!

[C.Plavan]

No I didn't. That thing is dang HOT!

I know. I had to grab a towel to unscrew cap. I had to let go after every turn because it was still hot with the towel.

It looks like I will be able to test the car out with the Spintric installed at Buttonwillow on Aug 21st. CW#13 config. My favorite. I'll see if I can beat 1:54's, I may even throw my A7's on for a session if everything goes right.

[Sgt.Gator]

I know. I had to grab a towel to unscrew cap. I had to let go after every turn because it was still hot with the towel.

It looks like I will be able to test the car out with the Spintric installed at Buttonwillow again Aug 21st.

I hope to be doing Garage Test II by Monday, latest Tuesday.

John from Aviaid has 5" and 5.5" pump pulleys in stock, and the 6" in 3 weeks. I recalculated the numbers and realize I need not only an underdrive crank but probably his 5.5" pulley, or the 6".

The problem is I'm guessing on the underdrive size right now because I don't have one in my hand to measure. They say it's a 25% reduction in crank speed for the P/S, Alt, A/C, but until I measure it I won't know for sure.

The numbers:

5.5" Crank + 4" Pulley = Pump at 137% of crank speed. This is our current setups.

Assuming a 25% reduction in crank size = 4.125" crank pulley which results:

4.125 crank + 4" pulley = 103% pump to crank rpm

4.125 crank + 5" pulley = 82%

4.125 crank + 5.5" pulley = 72%

4.125 crank + 6" pulley = 66.6%

So at 7,000 rpm with the underdrive crank and 5.5" pump pulley, the pump will be spinning at 5040 rpm.

Of course this is all theory now and may be a waste of time and a little $.

Chad, we are going to beat this problem. I want to build an 818R next year and race you at Thunderhill!

My long term plan is to use the wagon for 2 hour plus Enduros and possibly the 25hours of Thunderhill, and use the 818R for sprint races.

[Mitch Wright]

A little more info to noodle.
https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3733/oil-aeration
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=82329 This brings up running -10 over -12 on smaller displacement engines. One Small Block Chevy builder played with hose sized from -8 to -12 running clear hose and a window in the pan to see what was going on.

[killerbmotorsport]

Hi Guys, I've been contacted by a few 818 guys over the last couple weeks and one pointed me in the direction of a couple threads over here. There's LOTS of posts already and I didn't want to spend lots of time addressing concerns that may have already been addressed.

For those that are not familiar with us, we specialize in Subaru EJ engine oiling (wet or dry), and know a thing or two regarding EJ PCV systems. We do have our own line of engineered performance oiling products, but like everyone else here, I'm a car guy too. I'll do my best to point you in the right direction whether it means swapping OEM parts, home made, other brands, or our own. My only dog in this fight is to make sure your EJ engine's life blood supply is maintained and doing its job.

So if anyone has any question, concerns or otherwise, please feel free to post and I will do my best to address them, in regards to the 818 applications.

:)

[Sgt.Gator]

As an experiment to rule in or out one more variable I "sealed" my motor and re-ran Garage Test I. By sealing I mean that I blocked off the crankcase and cam cover vents that would normally be teed together and back to the dry sump tank. So when I ran the test all the vents were blocked. I figured it was safe to run the test because with no load, no turbo boost, there would be no turbo induced blow-by pressure in the crankcase to worry about blowing out seals if the scavenge wasn't able to keep up.
The biggest difference I noticed was the rushing river sound into the tank was MUCH quieter, which I attribute to a lot less air being sucked into the engine.
However it did not ultimately effect the oil temp problem, the temps still rose almost the exact same as the did in the garage I test graph.

One other update: The 5.5" pulley wheel has a 1" bore, so it requires a special bushing to make it work on a 5/8" pump. The total cost is $180. Yikes. I decided to wait and see if the under-drive crank pulley makes a difference, and if it does but not quite enough, I'll spring for a 5.5 or 6" pulley.

[killerbmotorsport]

Are you running any engine vents or a vacuum regulator?

Sorry if this has already been covered... How many stages and whos pump?

[Mitch Wright]

KB,
Both Chad and Sgt Gator are using the 2 stage System from Element Tuning and I believe one other builder that is close to finished also Phil's System.

[C.Plavan]

I installed the Spintric. Too bad I have to wait a couple weeks to test it out.

http://i.imgur.com/WIhWz93l.jpg

[Mitch Wright]

Should be able to warm it up take off the filler cap and with a flash light watch the oil going back into the tank at 5K with and with out the Spintric.

[Sgt.Gator]

Look what's arrived:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/y57__F9jCcMEyU3eyh8YA0ahvzJw4sIrrjW8BF6gUkU=w1615-h908-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qaRzXXuQr3DgncACbf0S7zsYjyqUzhkZBDaHBnsi7tU=w511-h908-no

Stock - 5.56 LBS

Kartboy - 2.36 LBS

GrimmSpeed - 2.02 LBS

Cobb - 1.24 LBS

Perrin - 1.2 LBS

OBX- 1.0 lbs and 4 5/16" diameter.

Eureka, normal oil pressure readings, no goofy spiking! I am so happy to have good oil pressure readings again!

Tonight I'll get the crank pulley on and measure for new belt. Hopefully I can find a belt locally tomorrow and Garage Test III will commence.

I'm also doing a CAD design for a new pump pulley and have a local shop cnc what I want.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I'm also doing a CAD design for a new pump pulley and have a local shop cnc what I want.

Gator,
Get a quantity price on the pulleys, none of us need to be spinning our alternators at 12,000 Rpm's with the greatly reduced electrical loads we have. Does anybody make a low cost lighter racing alternator for a Subaru?
Bob

Edit: Never mind, I thought you were talking about the crank pulley.

Edit#2: I also started my Accusump install. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12534-MRG-MotorSports-818S-Build&p=207556&viewfull=1#post207556

[killerbmotorsport]

Hi Guys, I was directed through to this thread and just wanted to offer any assistance with whatever oiling or PCV issues you may have. For those that have never heard of us, we are a Subaru oiling products specialist, specifically for the turbo EJ engines. Anything any everything in virtually any motor sporting event that a Subaru has been involved, with our products on many podium and world record breaking cars. We've even designed some neat solutions for Suby powered aircraft (aerobatics) in which load is continuous and the sump changes location nearly continuously as well. We do manufacture wet sump and PCV products and have designed many wet sump setups also. We don't sell a wet sump system because we only recommend them for VERY specific applications only; banked circle/oval, and on aircraft that will see inverted flight.

There seems to be lots going on in this thread. I took a very quick skim and I'm sure some of the issues have since been resolved and the only more recent one seems to be oil temperature issues on a dry sump system. Without intimate knowledge of each setup I could only speculate at this point, so if you can answer some questions for me I can offer some input.

It looks like the dry sump systems being used are the Element setups. This is not a 'traditional' dry sump setup, it's more a mutt since it's really just two scavenge stages and maintains the OEM pump/regulator, etc. Going back some years from memory I believe Phil uses Aviad as a supplier for the scavenge pumps. I'm curious what direction Elements tech support has given so far so I'm not covering old ground. Regardless... Dry sump design info that would help troubleshoot issues...

- Are the scavenge outputs T-d together in the pump or lines before the reservoir?
- Are deaerating baffles, a separate deaerator, or swirl pot in use in the reservoir tank or as a separate component?
- Are you using a remove vent can and where is it plumbed into the reservoir?
- PCV/Vents are plumbed into the reservoir correctly?
- OEM PCV balance tubes are plumbed as from the factory?
- What baffle is being used between crank and sump?
- What OEM oil pump is being used, and have any modifications been done (oversized, porting, shimming, etc.)?
- Where are you taking pressure/temp readings from?
- Are you using a vacuum regulator, where is it located and what is it set to?

Probably some more I'm missing but it's early and I'm only on my first cup of coffee.

Like I said before, we don't spec dry sump systems for 99.9998% of applications because it's just no necessary. When we do, it's 5-stages (4-scavenge, 1-pump) on go big or go home setups that cost a LOT, but you set your vacuum, set your pressure and forget it. The OEM STi oil pan is generally OK to about 1.1-1.2 Gs sustained. For most 'donor' cars that see occasional road course (once or twice a year) we don't recommend changing any of the OEM bits. Beyond that, a performance oil pan is necessary to provide reliable oiling. Then once sustained lateral forced climb to the 1.4-1.6Gs range (depending on some variables) PVC issues need to be address as you start flooding the heads with oil and pushing them out the head breathers. The PCV issues can be just as devastating as it reduced the capacity in the oil pan by putting the oil elsewhere. IIRC the smaller dry sump setups compensate for this by running an ungodly amount of oil and just letting the heads flood.

Regarding accusumps, I think they are not useful on these engines. The manufacturers even state they maintain some flow, but not pressure. Plus you have reduce engine oil flow during charging. The EJ engines flow HUGE amounts of oil rivaling racing oil pumps you'd find in a small block V-8. Too many downsides to the accusump (on an EJ anyway), just fix the issue you've got instead of trying to apply a Band-Aid. If you want to prime a freshly installed turbo before startup, it's a great device!

You guys have a really good platform. The 818 is proving to be a very competent track car even at very modest modification levels. The highest lateral forces I've seen on an 818 is ~1.7Gs sustained. To put that into perspective, this is very similar to what you see from some of the world’s fastest Time-Attack donor cars. I'm really exciting to see performance levels be pushed as the platform seems to show a lot of potential.

I see your pulley. We use/recommend damper pulleys on engines we build for street and road coarse. If the engine is going to be torn down ever 40 hours or for drag application, a lightened pulley is fine. Do I have any hard data to support failures or anything to that extent, evidence of excessive wear on the end bearings vs center mains, etc.? No. This is just info I'm passing a long from the crank manufacturers I speak with, and no they don't sell the dampers.

BTW I think I met Sgt.Gator at Big NW Subaru meet last year?

[Sgt.Gator]

Gator,
Get a quantity price on the pulleys, none of us need to be spinning our alternators at 12,000 Rpm's with the greatly reduced electrical loads we have. Does anybody make a low cost lighter racing alternator for a Subaru?
Bob

Edit: Never mind, I thought you were talking about the crank pulley.

Edit#2: I also started my Accusump install. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12534-MRG-MotorSports-818S-Build&p=207556&viewfull=1#post207556


Hi Bob,
The OBX underdrive crank pulley is $80 on Amazon. I've seen overdrive alt and P/S pulleys, I'd have to search for them. But it's easier to just change the crank pulley which slows down everything.

[Sgt.Gator]

Hi Guys, I was directed through to this thread and just wanted to offer any assistance with whatever oiling or PCV issues you may have. For those that have never heard of us, we are a Subaru oiling products specialist, specifically for the turbo EJ engines. Anything any everything in virtually any motor sporting event that a Subaru has been involved, with our products on many podium and world record breaking cars. We've even designed some neat solutions for Suby powered aircraft (aerobatics) in which load is continuous and the sump changes location nearly continuously as well. We do manufacture wet sump and PCV products and have designed many wet sump setups also. We don't sell a wet sump system because we only recommend them for VERY specific applications only; banked circle/oval, and on aircraft that will see inverted flight.

There seems to be lots going on in this thread. I took a very quick skim and I'm sure some of the issues have since been resolved and the only more recent one seems to be oil temperature issues on a dry sump system. Without intimate knowledge of each setup I could only speculate at this point, so if you can answer some questions for me I can offer some input.

It looks like the dry sump systems being used are the Element setups. This is not a 'traditional' dry sump setup, it's more a mutt since it's really just two scavenge stages and maintains the OEM pump/regulator, etc. Going back some years from memory I believe Phil uses Aviad as a supplier for the scavenge pumps. I'm curious what direction Elements tech support has given so far so I'm not covering old ground. Regardless... Dry sump design info that would help troubleshoot issues...

- Are the scavenge outputs T-d together in the pump or lines before the reservoir?
- Are deaerating baffles, a separate deaerator, or swirl pot in use in the reservoir tank or as a separate component?
- Are you using a remove vent can and where is it plumbed into the reservoir?
- PCV/Vents are plumbed into the reservoir correctly?
- OEM PCV balance tubes are plumbed as from the factory?
- What baffle is being used between crank and sump?
- What OEM oil pump is being used, and have any modifications been done (oversized, porting, shimming, etc.)?
- Where are you taking pressure/temp readings from?
- Are you using a vacuum regulator, where is it located and what is it set to?

Probably some more I'm missing but it's early and I'm only on my first cup of coffee.

Like I said before, we don't spec dry sump systems for 99.9998% of applications because it's just no necessary. When we do, it's 5-stages (4-scavenge, 1-pump) on go big or go home setups that cost a LOT, but you set your vacuum, set your pressure and forget it. The OEM STi oil pan is generally OK to about 1.1-1.2 Gs sustained. For most 'donor' cars that see occasional road course (once or twice a year) we don't recommend changing any of the OEM bits. Beyond that, a performance oil pan is necessary to provide reliable oiling. Then once sustained lateral forced climb to the 1.4-1.6Gs range (depending on some variables) PVC issues need to be address as you start flooding the heads with oil and pushing them out the head breathers. The PCV issues can be just as devastating as it reduced the capacity in the oil pan by putting the oil elsewhere. IIRC the smaller dry sump setups compensate for this by running an ungodly amount of oil and just letting the heads flood.

Regarding accusumps, I think they are not useful on these engines. The manufacturers even state they maintain some flow, but not pressure. Plus you have reduce engine oil flow during charging. The EJ engines flow HUGE amounts of oil rivaling racing oil pumps you'd find in a small block V-8. Too many downsides to the accusump (on an EJ anyway), just fix the issue you've got instead of trying to apply a Band-Aid. If you want to prime a freshly installed turbo before startup, it's a great device!

You guys have a really good platform. The 818 is proving to be a very competent track car even at very modest modification levels. The highest lateral forces I've seen on an 818 is ~1.7Gs sustained. To put that into perspective, this is very similar to what you see from some of the world’s fastest Time-Attack donor cars. I'm really exciting to see performance levels be pushed as the platform seems to show a lot of potential.

I see your pulley. We use/recommend damper pulleys on engines we build for street and road coarse. If the engine is going to be torn down ever 40 hours or for drag application, a lightened pulley is fine. Do I have any hard data to support failures or anything to that extent, evidence of excessive wear on the end bearings vs center mains, etc.? No. This is just info I'm passing a long from the crank manufacturers I speak with, and no they don't sell the dampers.

BTW I think I met Sgt.Gator at Big NW Subaru meet last year?

Hi KB, yes we met at the Big NW Subaru event at PIR. I didn't go this year because of trying to fix these issues.
I appreciate your interest. I will answer your questions and look forward to your input. One thing though, I've read the arguments you and Phil have had on the NASIOC threads, let's not repeat those here. If folks want to dive deep into those they're on NASIOC for anyone to read!

Starting with the pulley, I currently have the Cobb lightened pulley, and there are hundreds, probably thousands, of Subarus with the Cobb and Perrin pulleys with no reported problems. Nor have I heard of issues with any of the other pulleys, although the Cobb and Perrin are closest in weight. The OBX pulley is only .25lb lighter than the Cobb so I'm not concerned. Let's put the lightened pulley discussion aside for now unless you find data to support that they are a problem.

- Are the scavenge outputs T-d together in the pump or lines before the reservoir? The scavenge lines both go into the pump individually. One outlet line goes to the tank. So yes, they are teed internally in the pump.

- Are deaerating baffles, a separate deaerator, or swirl pot in use in the reservoir tank or as a separate component? We are both using the Peterson Dry Sump tank with it's own baffles. Chad has also just installed a Spintric. I've examined the designs of all the dry sump tank manufacturers and think they could be improved upon, but that's a future project.

- Are you using a remove vent can and where is it plumbed into the reservoir? Yes. At the very top of the DS Tank.

- PCV/Vents are plumbed into the reservoir correctly? - OEM PCV balance tubes are plumbed as from the factory? We think so! We each do it slightly differently. We both removed the PCV entirely and both vent from the front cam covers teed together teed to the former PCV vent, which then runs into the DS tank. If the vent lines fill with oil they dump into the DS tank. Chad also tied in the rear cam cover vents. I left my OEM balance system in place and only tied the front cam cover vents. I've also run a test with the engine entirely sealed, no venting. It didn't change the results on the oil temps.

- What baffle is being used between crank and sump? None, I don't think it's possible with the ARE pan.

- What OEM oil pump is being used, and have any modifications been done (oversized, porting, shimming, etc.)? We both started with the 11mm. I changed to the 10MM, it didn't make any difference. Both OEM out of the box. We read your posts on the Pump Size thread on NASIOC, cited them in this thread, very useful info! That's why I tried switching to the 10MM.

- Where are you taking pressure/temp readings from? My pressure is from the "stock" port on the front of the block below the alternator. My sender unit was bad, I just replaced it last night. My oil temp is on the return line between the DS tank and the inlet on the bottom of the engine, inside the passenger compartment, isolated from exhaust and turbo heat. My water temps are from two sources, the oem unit feeding the Cobb Accessport/ and ECU, and a separate AIM sender feeding the MXL display. The oem sender/Accessport displays about 5-10 degree cooler temps than the AIM MXL shows, but they go up and down in sync.

- Are you using a vacuum regulator, where is it located and what is it set to? No.

Thanks again for looking this over.

[killerbmotorsport]

Hi KB, yes we met at the Big NW Subaru event at PIR. I didn't go this year because of trying to fix these issues.

I thought so. You don't see many LGT wagons on track :)


[COLOR="#0000CD"]I've read the arguments you and Phil have had on the NASIOC threads, let's not repeat those here. If folks want to dive deep into those they're on NASIOC for anyone to read!

I agree. While Phil and I share very similar passions we also have differences of opinion, and there's nothing wrong with that. If his stuff works for his customers and likewise for me, all is good.


[COLOR="#0000CD"]
Starting with the pulley, I currently have the Cobb lightened pulley, and there are hundreds, probably thousands, of Subarus with the Cobb and Perrin pulleys with no reported problems. Nor have I heard of issues with any of the other pulleys, although the Cobb and Perrin are closest in weight. The OBX pulley is only .25lb lighter than the Cobb so I'm not concerned. Let's put the lightened pulley discussion aside for now unless you find data to support that they are a problem.


Everything you're saying here is correct and I agree. I only stumbled onto it a few years ago when we were looking into making one ourselves and started poking the crank manufacturers for any info they'd be willing to share on harmonics. Needless to say, we ditched moving forward on that project. It's too bad too, I had a 3-piece pulley with titanium hub, aluminum rim, and carbon fiber between. It would have been very trick.



- PCV/Vents are plumbed into the reservoir correctly? - OEM PCV balance tubes are plumbed as from the factory? [COLOR="#0000CD"]We think so! We each do it slightly differently. We both removed the PCV entirely and both vent from the front cam covers teed together teed to the former PCV vent, which then runs into the DS tank. If the vent lines fill with oil they dump into the DS tank. Chad also tied in the rear cam cover vents. I left my OEM balance system in place and only tied the front cam cover vents. I've also run a test with the engine entirely sealed, no venting. It didn't change the results on the oil temps.


Better to tee the heads together and run the crankcase vent separately. This mimics OEM and is known to work well. The way you have it might be good (if the lines are upsized), or might be a restriction.

The rear vents should all be tee'd together. There is no reason to vent them, in fact more harm can come from doing that because there are no internal baffles on those ports, only the front ports.




- What baffle is being used between crank and sump? [COLOR="#0000CD"]None, I don't think it's possible with the ARE pan.


I had to ask. I've seen people do some strange things. If the scavenge is doing it's job, there shouldn't be much oil (if any) to slosh back into the crank. It does fit BTW.



- Are you using a vacuum regulator, where is it located and what is it set to? [COLOR="#0000CD"]No.


OK. You're very likely not pulling vacuum, or at least not much and only under certain conditions. A 2-stage just doesn't have enough to do it. Someone posted some data on this years ago. It might have been Mick or some one at Cobb, I don't recall exactly.

If you want to be sure you have vacuum under boost plumb a swirl pot A/O separator off your remove vent tank and to your turbo inlet. This will assure you have vacuum under boost always... even more the bigger the turbo you use :) This is how we plumb and recommend plumbing our wet sump setup. It works very well. Most engines will pull ~2" vacuum under boost.

[Sgt.Gator]

If you want to be sure you have vacuum under boost plumb a swirl pot A/O separator off your remove vent tank and to your turbo inlet. This will assure you have vacuum under boost always... even more the bigger the turbo you use :) This is how we plumb and recommend plumbing our wet sump setup. It works very well. Most engines will pull ~2" vacuum under boost.

That's sounds interesting. I'd like to see a diagram and pics, and specs on the pieces I would need. I'm having a hard time putting it together in my head.
Thanks
Gator

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm doing the HAPPY DANCE!
Not the 100% knock it out of the ball park dance, but pretty close!

I installed my underdrive and obtained the correct belts. Time for garage test III.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/CB4IUyywuMgiOlRZksLBc2haj9YuDyKZPC1Oe2vy6mA=w1181-h588-no

Sweetness! My oil pressures are working normally and they look fine. But most important it took a long time to get hot, with reasonably long runs at 4,000 RPM and again at 5,000 RPM. Even after a 6,000 RPM run it still didn't go over 226 degrees. YES!!!!

The I realized that was with the engine sealed up and the 6,000 RPM runs could be longer, so back again:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/LwKQrb607Wh9JtiF792Dh9cMo7fa4jy4B-7iNE4yRto=w1181-h594-no


0 to 13 minutes: Engine already hot from last test. I opened up the vents as I normally run the car, front vents teed > PCV vent> DS tank. And I stressed the engine more. With the open vents the rise in temperature happens more rapidly. That indicates to me there is air being sucked into the oil faster than with the closed vents, but it's still a lot better with the underdrive than previously.

13 to 16 minutes: I reseal the engine while it's idling. It's easy I just unscrew the line from the vents and cap it.

17:30 to 23: Even starting the next run already at 230 degrees, it still takes 6 mins of revving to 6,000 RPM to reach 250.

25 to 32 minutes: I decide to put a fan blowing on the naca duct oil cooler inlet to sort of mimic low speed air moving thru it.

33 to 43 minutes: Starting at 220 degrees I spend about 4 mins at 4,000 RPM, the oil temps climb just a little. Then 6 mins at 6,000 simulating shifting at 4,000 RPM. at 43 minutes the oil temps hit their high of 253 degrees.

All together I am extremely happy with these results. I could probably hit the track and be fine for 20-30 minute sessions. But I think there is more to gain if I slow the pump down some more, so a friend of mine is creating 5.5" and 6" CAD drawings of the pump pulley which we will metal 3D print, and possibly have cut from a aluminum billet if the 3D metal print is not satisfactory.

I'm betting that Chad's Spintric + an underdrive crank pulley would certainly solve his problems.

Not 100%, but dang close!

[C.Plavan]

Nice charts and work. It is no question anymore, it is oil aeration. You can see when the oil temp goes up, pressure goes down. Bubbles don't cool, and cause pressure drop.

What weight oil you using?

What belts did you have to use with the underdrive pulley? Is there not enough adjustment to use stock belts?

[Sgt.Gator]

Nice charts and work. It is no question anymore, it is oil aeration. You can see when the oil temp goes up, pressure goes down. Bubbles don't cool, and cause pressure drop.

What weight oil you using?

What belts did you have to use with the underdrive pulley? Is there not enough adjustment to use stock belts?

Thanks.
0W-40 Euro Spec Mobil 1.

The belts:

Gates K050330 for the Alternator/Power Steering

Gates K040335 for the Dry Sump Pump.

If I make a 5.5 " pump pulley then the oem A/C belt would probably work since the diameters are almost exactly mirrored. I'll still need the above Alt/P/S belt though.


Maybe I should mount one these next to my DS tank, cheaper than a Spintric!

http://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/race-prep-75/49853-itt-we-will-discuss-swirl-pots-galore-can1.jpg?dateline=1342937542

[C.Plavan]

I don't have PS so I'll figure out that belt.

[killerbmotorsport]

Are those temps under load?

What happens when you remove the OEM fill cap?

And not to sound redundant if it has already been covered, but this is a built engine? Or OEM? Compression numbers are good?

[Sgt.Gator]

Here's the video of the 6K run in the top graph:

https://goo.gl/photos/Zw9mWz1yW6wBfWqJ7

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Here's the video of the 6K run in the top graph:

https://photos.google.com/search/_tra_/photo/AF1QipOP-ZadO3qR5c7lI7J9PQVFH980nb9tEVT63v57
Could not see the video,
I think we might have to be logged onto your google account to se it.

Great testing, I hope you are correct.
Thanks to you and Chad for the effort that we will all benefit from.
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Could not see the video,
I think we might have to be logged onto your google account to se it.

Great testing, I hope you are correct.
Thanks to you and Chad for the effort that we will all benefit from.
BobTry again, i got a shareable link.

[Sgt.Gator]

It is no question anymore, it is oil aeration. You can see when the oil temp goes up, pressure goes down. Bubbles don't cool, and cause pressure drop.

Thanks for pointing that out. I think you are right, now that I have decent oil pressure logs you can really see it.

[Zach34]

So is it the OEM pressure pump causing the aeration, or the scavenge system, or both?

[C.Plavan]

So is it the OEM pressure pump causing the aeration, or the scavenge system, or both?

Majority dry sump. He didn't have this problem when he did not have it installed.

[killerbmotorsport]

OK, no load. Those temps are high-ish for no load.

What are you using for an oil cooler? Does it have active cooling?

There is definitely heat being added. Scavenge pumps, or any pump for that matter, adds heat. The upper RPM pressure seems pretty good even as temps climbed. Idle temps were LOW, especially at the RPMs you have idle set to.

I don't think you answered previously, but this engine ins built with enlarged clearances? This would account for the lower idle pressure.

As far as the OEM pump cavitating, the 10mm will not. If you were revving past 9K RPMs I'd recommend porting just for some insurance, but we've seen them go to 10K RPMs without issue. The 11mm is another story. It has problems with high RPM use because the pressure regulating valve can't cope with the extra flow the pump pushes and it aerates the oil up high in the revs. Solvable with porting, but one of the reasons you never use an 11mm pump unless the engine is made for it (dual AVCS, journal bearing turbo, etc.) or had been clearance with oiling modification to actually use the extra flow provided.

Curious what rad and fan setup you're using? I'm not familiar with the rad setup on the 818, but those temps are a couple degrees higher than what you see in the donor cars. Although, I am just recalling you have other sender pickup points, and that could explain it.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

The 11mm is another story. It has problems with high RPM use because the pressure regulating valve can't cope with the extra flow the pump pushes and it aerates the oil up high in the revs. Solvable with porting, but one of the reasons you never use an 11mm pump unless the engine is made for it (dual AVCS, journal bearing turbo, etc.) or had been clearance with oiling modification to actually use the extra flow provided.


I think you might have hit on the root cause. Both Sgt.Gator and Chad are using 11mm pumps.
When you say problems at high RPMs do you mean 6-7k or 9-10k?
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

KB, It's all in the thread but to recap:
Both Chad and I are using OEM Subaru shortblocks. Mine is new.
Chad has three active and passive oil coolers on his! I have one that is airflow only. It worked great on my wet sump setup, almost too cool.
OEM at 600 rpm idle the specs calls for 14 psi. When mine gets really hot, 230+, they do drop to 8 at idle. I'm going to increase my idle rpm to cure that.
Chad has his on his 818R, mine is on my LGT. So my radiator setup is very different from an 818. It's a Fluidyne radiator with two Spal fans. I really don't need the fans except for tests like this. At the racetrack the only time I've had water temps high enough to turn them on is when waiting in the scales line after a race.
And your question about what happens when the oil filler cap is opened: I have removed the fill tube and dipstick, replacing them with a block off plate. That leaves more room for -12AN lines coming and going to the DS Pump.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dxHf-Avi26fPeUcCfHpPG861qJ1sPZpN6RH5gPDWOkg=w1211-h908-no

Next up is running some tests with a vacuum/boost gauge to see what happens if I leave the engine sealed up; if too much blow-by is not scavenged and creates a positive pressure in the vent tubes. I can't really test that until I get to a track and get the car under load so the turbo will boost. I don't really care if it's creating vacuum, I just want it to keep up with blow-by pressure. If it does I may just leave the system sealed up, effectively running two balance systems, the OEM on the back vents and the 3/4" hoses on the front vents/pcv vent.

[Sgt.Gator]

I think you might have hit on the root cause. Both Sgt.Gator and Chad are using 11mm pumps.
When you say problems at high RPMs do you mean 6-7k or 9-10k?
Bob

Bob, you may not recall but I switched to 10MM a couple of weeks ago. I thought that was the problem. Chad ordered one too but after I posted the data that it didn't fix the problem he has not installed it <yet>.

BTW, Chad, and everyone, I've been making ST tools that we need for these cars. The first run was the axle seal protector and axle seal installer. I discovered that the axle seal installer works just fine for the oil pump seal too. If anyone wants these products please PM me. Right now they are beta test versions so they are not officially for sale, and I am not a registered vendor here. <yet, but soon I hope, if I get some favorable reviews and finalize production versions>.

The ones with a "handle" are for installing the CV axle in the tranny, they protect the seal, in the FSM they are ST 28399SA010. The "cup" is for installing the axle seal in the tranny, ST 18675AA000.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/J8-5oTQcQmcPs1GLEYwh6jYZYXZ3MXH7XHZaWXOqpN4=w576-h378-no..https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IlojXqQgL_AEv7Ajbpdw7rPcUm_I9pa8JIAZIVr6bU=w576-h324-no

The "cup", ST 18675AA000, is not an exact match for the diameter of the oil pump seal, but it's more than close enough and works great.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kOKvdGANCViKrN5zsTIggNL90P8_nAJOGtE89nkLDzs=w576-h324-no..https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zBjirWJxjPlsGKfKkguMSTuYOS--MBP8793vwlKIJhk=w432-h386-no

If you Google search for a price on these ST numbers you will be shocked at the prices for such simple tools.


I just found this at Summit Racing. I think it will work. 6" Diameter, 5/8" drive, billet aluminum, keyway. It has a 5 groove pulley, but I can run a 4 groove belt on a 5 groove pulley.
$56.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/xlarge/MCH-616-09_xl.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mch-616-09

[killerbmotorsport]

I think you might have hit on the root cause. Both Sgt.Gator and Chad are using 11mm pumps.
When you say problems at high RPMs do you mean 6-7k or 9-10k?
Bob

Above 7K RPMs is where problem can occur when using the 11mm pump.


KB, It's all in the thread but to recap:
Both Chad and I are using OEM Subaru shortblocks. Mine is new.

Can you pull the oil fill block off plate or put the OEM filler neck on there. Is there any smoke coming out?



Chad has three active and passive oil coolers on his! I have one that is airflow only. It worked great on my wet sump setup, almost too cool.


That's a lot of coolers! With a wet sump you typically only need one only under certain conditions; extremely hot ambient temps or significantly higher power levels over OEM. This leads me to believe its in the scavenge setup, and not related to the OEM pump.


OEM at 600 rpm idle the specs calls for 14 psi. When mine gets really hot, 230+, they do drop to 8 at idle. I'm going to increase my idle rpm to cure that.


That chart is as harmful as it is useful. Those specs are MINIMUM, that's where you draw the line in the sand. I wouldn't run an engine that low unless there was a good reason for it. Increasing idle is a band aid for a problem.


Chad has his on his 818R, mine is on my LGT. So my radiator setup is very different from an 818. It's a Fluidyne radiator with two Spal fans. I really don't need the fans except for tests like this. At the racetrack the only time I've had water temps high enough to turn them on is when waiting in the scales line after a race.


Fair enough. My guess is a thicker core, which is harder to get air through at low (no) speeds.


Next up is running some tests with a vacuum/boost gauge to see what happens if I leave the engine sealed up; if too much blow-by is not scavenged and creates a positive pressure in the vent tubes. I can't really test that until I get to a track and get the car under load so the turbo will boost. I don't really care if it's creating vacuum, I just want it to keep up with blow-by pressure. If it does I may just leave the system sealed up, effectively running two balance systems, the OEM on the back vents and the 3/4" hoses on the front vents/pcv vent.

You'll want a gauge with a very low range so you have decent resolution +/-5psi Hg

Blow-by won't be scavenged with only 2-stages (it's not really the purpose of the scavenge pump anyway) which is why it needs to be vented any why valve cover vents and crankcase vents need to go the separate vent can. Also, while combustion pressures should increase blow-by, when you get on boil the P/W clearance tightens and blow-by will reduce. When you install gauges you will see some neat things.

[C.Plavan]

I fired her up yesterday. I disconnected the rear oil cooler and was just running the two front coolers (no fans). I did notice that the oil cooler lines after the Spintric were not "pulsating" like they were before the install. The only lines pulsating were the scavenge out, and the top air line out of the Spintric. The pulsating was the air, and I remember the front oil cooler lines doing that before the Spintric.

I ran the car, the oil temp got to 180, then I ran it at 5k-6k Rpm. It got up to 240 (remember no air flow over coolers) quickly (less than 5 min). The only real test for me will be running the car on the track like I have been, sitting in the garage, with no load and revving the crap out of it does not mean much to me. I have never done a "base" measure, nor do I have oil pressure/temp logging. So I just need to go run the snot out of it and go from there.

There was some oil aeration bubbles at the top of the tank, but that really does not help since we only care what is at the bottom pickup. The change in height/level from bubbles to oil was about 3/4" (once bubbles dissipated after turning car off).

So the real test will be Aug 21st. If that does not work, then I will be throwing on the 10cm oil pump and some different pulley's.


Sitting there with both radiator fans going- coolant was getting to 220+ (when revving at 6k) My car needs to move.

Note to self: I should of just bought the complete ARE setup instead of this Element Tuning mixed bag of parts.

[Sgt.Gator]

The spintric driveway test is encouraging.


Note to self: I should of just bought the complete ARE setup instead of this Element Tuning mixed bag of parts.
I hear ya. In looking at the pics at http://drysump.com/Subaru.htm it's not clear to me how the setup works. The pump has a pressure out port, but they are still feeding the oil up thru the pan and into the OEM pump (which is still clearly in the pics). I wonder if you are supposed to gut out the internals of the OEM pump?

The Dailey Engineering looks even better but I think it requires custom headers. In the pics there too the oem pump is still on the front of the motor. http://www.daileyengineering.com/subaru_ej_4_cylinder.htm

The Cosworth is also a 2 stage scavenge only system like our Element Tuning systems, but their pump pulleys are sized to slow down the pump, not speed it up like Element Tuning's. I like the design of the Cosworth pan a lot better than the ARE pan, at least in the pics.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/eTeFs8y2eLEyNil-LlhuVefDx4X4iNhwohfpAThOstE=w900-h600-no

The Cosworth system includes a Crankcase Breather Filter and Fitting, and they say: "A dry sump also offers more consistent oil pressure to the engine, improved scavenging, and increased ring seal due to greater pan vacuum."

The crankcase breather is a pressure regulator:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/GQXIeA5mkzCoxwlTNCkUyhaQkVrWxkDsapO9kvgkjEk=w129-h204-no

You can see it installed on the right in this pic. It appears to replace the oem oil filler tube, where I have a block off plate now:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Zf4ymHr77U6kpbv67sdO0mQZJA3Q2lQDFgAhdZb2BFg=w1024-h768-no

From what I know of pressure regulator design, this one appears to allow the crankcase to release pressure at some setting, and not allow air in. But without the installation instructions there's no way to be sure from these pics.


They retain the stock A/C belt tightening function but replace the A/C pulley with an idler. They had to because the pump belt is moved out to the front of the crank pulley.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Y6PQySNvSdkulo3fW8N2KBD9lRJAaTtNBQ2QNtl06Qs=w725-h482-no


I'd sure like to get a copy of the Cosworth installation instructions, and buy one of those crankcase regulator setups. I guess you have to pay to get the F1 qualified engineering.

Note to self: When I build my 818R order the Cosworth kit.

[killerbmotorsport]

There area a couple methods for passing through the OEM pump.

If the venting isn't right or the engine is sealed it will cause problems. This is why I asked of you've run the test with your oil filler removed. Common on these cars is venting through a remote vent can. The cosy setup add a vacuum regulator (not a pressure regulator) because you don't want too much vacuum. I'd be surprised if you truly needed it with only 2 scavenge stages, but my guess is its a part of their generic dry sump oiling offering for all makes/models. You definitely do need one with four.

There is no magic to installing the Cosy setup. It follows similar guidelines as any other dry sump setup. Vacuum is a selling point of a dry sump, but don't forget... on these engines, in OE form, you are already pulling vacuum. With an N/A application the impact would be much more dramatic.

On the pump and pulley sizes it may have to do with rotor efficiency or size or design. Every setup is different and has their rhyme and reason. Slower reduces the accumulative parasitic loses of all the scavenge stages and faster provides more pressure (when you have a pressure stage). It's a balance. There is a reason for the sizes they choose and I would definitely get their feedback before changing that recipe they know works.

[Sgt.Gator]

If the venting isn't right or the engine is sealed it will cause problems. This is why I asked of you've run the test with your oil filler removed. Common on these cars is venting through a remote vent can. The cosy setup add a vacuum regulator (not a pressure regulator) because you don't want too much vacuum. I'd be surprised if you truly needed it with only 2 scavenge stages, but my guess is its a part of their generic dry sump oiling offering for all makes/models. You definitely do need one with four.

If the Cosworth regulator is vacuum only that implies the two stage scavenge pulls enough vacuum to not worry about positive pressure in the crank case, and that otherwise the engine is sealed up. If there was also an open vent to the vented DS Tank or straight to a breather can to release positive crankcase pressures, there would be no point in having a vacuum regulator.




On the pump and pulley sizes it may have to do with rotor efficiency or size or design. Every setup is different and has their rhyme and reason. Slower reduces the accumulative parasitic loses of all the scavenge stages and faster provides more pressure (when you have a pressure stage). It's a balance. There is a reason for the sizes they choose and I would definitely get their feedback before changing that recipe they know works.

I talked with John, the owner of Aviaid, the pumps we use, it's in an earlier post here. He suggested trying a larger pulley, 5.5 or 6". The ones he has cost $180 and use a special Fenner bushing to adapt the 5/8 drive to a 1 inch pulley. The one I found at Summit already has a 5/8 drive.
We'll see next week when I hit ORP for a test session. I'll have a vacuum gauge installed then too.

[killerbmotorsport]

If the Cosworth regulator is vacuum only that implies the two stage scavenge pulls enough vacuum to not worry about positive pressure in the crank case, and that otherwise the engine is sealed up. If there was also an open vent to the vented DS Tank or straight to a breather can to release positive crankcase pressures, there would be no point in having a vacuum regulator.


All that it implies is you want to limit vacuum. If there is less vacuum, it does nothing. If it creates positive pressure, it vents. Scavenge pumps do not mean you ALWAYS have vacuum and because you're pulling air/oil and pushing air/oil the net effect on the PCV is lower than if you were to just pull from the sump and dumping it. The reservoir you're pumping air/oil into is connected to the PCV. The same PCV you're pulling from. Net scavenge (vacuum) is low.



I talked with John, the owner of Aviaid, the pumps we use, it's in an earlier post here. He suggested trying a larger pulley, 5.5 or 6". The ones he has cost $180 and use a special Fenner bushing to adapt the 5/8 drive to a 1 inch pulley. The one I found at Summit already has a 5/8 drive.
We'll see next week when I hit ORP for a test session. I'll have a vacuum gauge installed then too.

Surprising answer. I've dealt with Aviaid very little, but this is an engine that's been around since the mid-90s. I'd have thought they'd know exactly how it should be per your setup?

Which vacuum gauge did you end up going with? Forgot to mention, you'll definitely want a liquid filled unit if you go mechanical. Or an electrical version that can cope with the oscillations.

[Sgt.Gator]

I copied this from the Corvette Forum. My C6 Z06 LS7 has a dry sump system so maybe I find it more interesting than ya'll but it still goes to oil system cooling and dry sump issues:
<<<>>>

grcor asked:
For many years GM has used radiators with an engine oil cooler inside left tank for trucks, SUVs, and in the Corvette 2005-2007 Z51s. This method of cooling engine oil works well and has the added benefit of warming the engine oil during warm up. It also keeps engine room congestion and the number of plumbing connections to a minimum.

The 2006 – 2010 Z06s use a large air/oil cooler mounted in front of the radiator. This method of oil cooling works well at the track, but in normal street driving it keeps the oil too cold. On a 50 to 60 degree day, it is common to see oil temperatures in the 120 to 140 range (DIC). The DIC is reading oil temperature from the bottom of the external reservoir, the oil first travels to the oil pump, then thru to the oil filter then thru to the oil cooler before it enters the engine. So the temperature of the oil entering the engine is even colder than what the DIC says. What is the optimum oil temperature for a LS7?

The 2011-2013 Z06s, 2009-2013 ZR1s, and C7 Z51s/Z06s use a coolant/oil cooler assembly to cool/warm engine oil. This method needs to have a coolant line plumbed from the block to the cooler assembly and from the cooler assembly to the radiator. The cooler assembly and extra plumbing would seem to add to engine room congestion and increased potential of coolant leaks as time goes on.

The current Camaro Z28 uses a bigger coolant/oil cooler assembly than the Corvettes.

Can you please tell us the advantages and disadvantages of each oil cooling approach from an engineering point of view and why you changed the oil cooling approach so many times?

Tadge answered:
To answer this question I consulted with Richard Quinn, our powertrain cooling development engineer who has a long history on Corvette cooling development:

In the early stages of designing a performance engine, we make allowances to divert a portion of the lube system oil flow for cooling. Engineers evaluate different ways to extract the heat energy required and select the best one for the application based on a number of factors. As you’ve pointed out, we’ve taken different approaches over the years on Corvette and each one had specific benefits for the powertrain and chassis at the time.

I mention the chassis as an important factor because throughout modern Corvette history and especially the last three generations, the performance envelope of the car has seen a steady, continuous increase. As cornering capability has improved, we’ve modified our lubrication and cooling strategy to match.

The earliest oil cooler you mention - the radiator end-tank style in the C6 Z51, removed 3.5kW of heat from the oil and deposited it into the main engine coolant system. The downsides of this method are the relatively small capacity limit and the oil-side restriction penalty. Moving any fraction of the oil from the engine to the radiator takes away from the main goal of the lubrication system which is first and foremost to supply the bottom end (main bearings) with good oil pressure. But in the Z51 package, the tradeoff was favorable and the cooling adequate for the operating envelope of the LS2 engine.

With the introduction of the C6 Z06 we had a chassis and tire package that allowed us to put much more power to the ground, compounded by an LS7 engine that loved to spin. Those elements drove us to add a much higher oil cooling capacity (roughly 16Kw) than an end-tank cooler could provide, so an air-to-oil cooler was selected as a ‘big hammer’ solution for the dry-sump motors, chosen for its ability to cool better at higher vehicle speeds. We made a conscious decision to go that route, as there are several downsides to air-to-oil coolers. They add airflow restriction, which reduces the effectiveness of the main radiator and impacts AC performance. There is unwanted oil-side restriction which takes some pressure potential from the main bearings. And as you mention, on cold days the oil will always be somewhat over-cooled. (Overcooling oil isn’t the worst thing, but it costs some fuel efficiency as colder oil has higher viscosity and more friction loss.) But for a car as track-oriented as the C6 Z06, this was the right trade-off to make, using a balanced take-off valve to bleed just enough oil to the cooler to satisfy cooling needs.

In the spirit of continuous improvement, in the 2009 ZR1 we increased oil cooler capacity further. We also needed to maintain higher main bearing oil pressure to support the huge horsepower increase of the LS9. That drove us to integrate the oil cooler as a liquid-liquid heat exchanger mounted as part of the engine assembly- a triple benefit, with more kW of heat rejection (almost 20Kw), reduced oil-side restriction, and elimination of the front-end airflow blockage of the previous air/oil cooler. This option also reduced the plumbing complexity, with only one small coolant circuit leaving the engine block to return to the main radiator coolant circuit. The downside is that the main radiator has to reject the heat extracted by this cooler, but the tradeoff is overall a net positive. We’ve been very happy with the integrated liquid-liquid oil cooler ever since we adopted it, as it has been a win-win over all of the previous alternatives in terms of capacity, restriction, and the ability to better regulate normal operating temperatures.

The Z/28 Camaro presented a unique challenge, with higher mass and gear ratios selected to carry very high RPM on track. It required a capacity increase in the liquid-liquid cooler system, and the team added a supplemental air/oil coolant radiator dedicated to providing colder water to the engine oil cooler. This had a double benefit of reducing bulk coolant temp and oil temp, but with a tradeoff consequence of added complexity and added mass.

As the Corvette chassis improves and continues to drive more lateral loads through the lubrication system, we are challenged to keep up with the increasing demand of racetrack use. We’ve gone from 3.5kW of oil cooling in the C6 Z51 to 21kW in today’s C7 Z06. You can be confident we’ll continue along this path as Corvette performance improvements dictate it.

<<<>>>

And Chad I know you hate Corvettes, but maybe I can be an exception? :cool:

[C.Plavan]

It's an unwritten rule. Porsche guys can't like Corvettes. :)

[Sgt.Gator]

I hooked up a vacuum gauge.
The setup:
Sealed engine. I disconnected the line that runs from the engine vents to the DS Tank, attached the vacuum gauge and plugged the line.
OBX Underdrive Crank Pulley.
4" dry sump pump pulley that came with the kit.

93 degree Oil:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/25nOb5byklYtvBKxSZtLh3Qbzghov6Bfm0T_Lw2D_M4=w1615-h908-no

183 degree oil, 2400 rpm:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tA5DKyFNmlraJ6a71ZYIK0hbgo9R9a9OiQO_CjYmxus=w1615-h908-no

172 degrees, 3500 RPM:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_4M24rpH4IwiGjnqC2jIN4pU1XnfZCTQhyipLgLDUQ8=w1615-h908-no

180 degrees, 5700 PM:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/UBJb6SeDRWX8BMpSkAAx-yFGAugrLIypuWMJZM5jOsk=w1615-h908-no


I'm VERY pleased with these numbers. If I can stay in vacuum out on the track under a full turbo boost load I'll disconnect the line entirely from the DS Tank and leave it looped on the engine vents.

The track test will be Monday.

[C.Plavan]

Good luck on Monday. I really curious to see what happens. It's really nice not being the only one trying things out! I'll be going out on Friday for my testing. Hopefully my Tuner will send me an updated map soon!

[Sgt.Gator]

This will be a long update, but it has a happy ending!

The 6" DS pulley did not work, at least not for a LGT. It could be made to work on a 818, the difference being the power steering pump. I won't go into details because I did more garage testing and decided I didn't need it. If anyone wants to know more I can explain, but I'd rather get straight to the solution.

Sunday I changed my oil and switched to Valvoline VR1 Racing 20W50 conventional. They also make the same oil in a synthetic with blue color, but from looking at the specs the only difference I could find was the synthetic has a lower viscosity at 40 Centigrade. However I can buy the conventional for $6.30 at OReilly's and Autozone, but the synthetic is $9.60 at NAPA.
Why did I switch? Well I did a search for anti foaming oils and it was the one that kept popping up. And I figured as hot as we are running a 50 weight would be better anyway, and might solve my low rpm oil pressure.
When I changed the oil I replaced with 6 quarts of the VR1. I did this in case I had too much oil and it wasn't actually draining thru the baffles in the oil tank with enough force to release the air. There was still probably a quart of Mobil1 0W40 Euro Spec in the bottom of the DS Tank, lines, the oil cooler, and the engine all together. I'm going to make a dip stick so I can more accurately gauge how much oil is in the tank.

So out to ORP.

The setup:
4" pulley that came with the kit.
OBX underdrive crank pulley.
VR1 Racing 20W50 with "enhanced anti foaming".
Engine is sealed up, I have a vacuum/boost gauge temporarily taped to the dash.

The air temp was about 80 for the first session.
The boost was set at 13psi, wastegate on my Bloch 1.5XTR with EWG.


First session, warm up for 30 minutes, hit the track for 30 minutes:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/auWtwNBNqQePzFdnVsa2X26J24YbF4XZ_FW-iB5T3i8=w1428-h788-no

While actually running on the track my water temp never got over 200! And the oil never exceeded 226!


Second session, these are individual laps laid over each other, the two "hottest" laps. The air is about 90, the track asphalt is 125. Boost still at 13psi.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4nIXx8iy9HueZ1EIOD3_T9GF7c79yuQNeAogKwEfOWM=w1426-h761-no

Again water temps never go over 200, the oil temp is at 226. Sweet!

Last session, mid afternoon:
Boost remapped to 17psi.
The air is in mid 90's.
The track temp is 135 degrees.
This is the stress test!

The two hottest oil temp laps overlaid:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jiLWt4LcBbkGw_hZyfjWm_TFhYwHo_yHvrtyXAy5-1s=w1430-h762-no


Yahoo!!!!! I'll take 236 degress in these conditions!!


And now for all the experts who say two scavenge stages is not enough to pull vacuum on a Subaru. Well apparently they never tried, at least not with a stock clearanced shortblock!
I had 12" of vacuum some of the time, 10" most of the time, at 6K and above it would drop to 8". Sometimes I saw 15". I NEVER saw less than 8" of vacuum. Here's a screen shot from my video, it's hard to see the gauge because of the lighting, I had to catch it just as the sun was on it:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/y09G4VAb7mIia7yGS2eD_sT70m8DVL-y9wLvD15IIq4=w725-h702-no

That means I can remove the line that runs from the vents to the DS tank, which means if I should ever add one of Chad's Spintric devices I have a port on the tank ready. What I have left over on the engine is the rear cam cover vents balanced with the OEM venting tubes to the block, and a repeat of the front cam cover vents to the crankcase thru the old PCV vent in the block.

HAPPY Dance! HAPPY DANCE!!!:D:D:D:

One last note, it is very easy to crush part of the ORing on the Peterson DS tank if you take it apart and re-assemble. I did and my tank has a slow leak. I've ordered 3 rings air shipped asap so I can race this weekend at Portland International. That will be the final test.

[Mitch Wright]

Congratulations and great news, thank you for blazing the trail.

[C.Plavan]

You know I have 3 cases of that oil sitting on my shelf for the 911...... I thought about trying it, but I was thinking about the heat and turbo etc.....lol

So you basically looped the two cam breathers hoses together, then just plugged the the rear crank case port (pcv area)? Thats all I have to do? I'm a little confused.

What size (Row) oil cooler do you have? I'm thinking since I have two 19 row up front in the clean air, I may not need my rear one anymore.

Now I'm wondering if I go out with the 0/40 oil and the Spintric, or go VR1 with Spintric on Friday. Hmmmmmmm


Oil Dipstick: I mounted it near the tank in a hose sheath. They make one for our tank, pricey but it works well.
http://i.imgur.com/WIhWz93l.jpg (http://imgur.com/WIhWz93)

[Sgt.Gator]

Congratulations and great news, thank you for blazing the trail.

Thanks for sticking with us!


You know I have 3 cases of that oil sitting on my shelf for the 911...... I thought about trying it, but I was thinking about the heat and turbo etc.....lol

So you basically looped the two cam breathers hoses together, then just plugged the the rear crank case port (pcv area)? Thats all I have to do? I'm a little confused.

Now I'm wondering if I go out with the 0/40 oil and the Spintric, or go VR1 with Spintric on Friday. Hmmmmmmm

The rear cam breathers are tied together thru the oem balance system into the crank case.

The front cam breathers tie together with a tee that goes to the PCV crankcase vent. Specifically it's 1/2" rubber lines from each cam breather to the middle 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 tee> 1/2" x 3/4" reducer > 3/4" to the PCV vent.

If the head fills with oil, the oil has two paths out of the head that both first dump back into the crankcase. Everyone said that wouldn't work because blow by would be shooting crankcase vapors out of the crankcase so the oil couldn't drain in. However I have proven that at least with stock clearances and turbo pressures under 18 psi that's not the case. The engine never has positive pressure that needs to vent, it's under vacuum so the oil will drop into the crankcase, and if even more oil comes into the lines than can flow into the crankcase, it will next go over to the opposite head, then under vacuum back to the scavenge pan.

The added benefit is with the engine under vacuum the DS pump has less air to deal with, less air to entrain into the oil as it spins thru the pump, less foaming. With an open system the scavenge is pulling a lot of air in with the oil and pumping them both thru the DS pump.

LOL about having the oil on hand for your Porsche! Did you install an underdrive crank pulley? I'm pretty sure the oil and the Spintric will do the job. The underdrive would be extra insurance and reduce stress on your alternator and the DS pump.

At 6-7 quarts per change I can't afford Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 ($20/Quart) which would be the best of all worlds if it has as much anti foam as the VR1. If you look at the graphs, it took 20 minutes to get the oil warm enough to flow well. The Mobil1 starts at 0W.......but it would cost $140 to change the oil after every race!

[C.Plavan]

Thanks for sticking with us!



The rear cam breathers are tied together thru the oem balance system into the crank case.

The front cam breathers tie together with a tee that goes to the PCV crankcase vent. Specifically it's 1/2" rubber lines from each cam breather to the middle 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 tee> 1/2" x 3/4" reducer > 3/4" to the PCV vent.

So I can basically just plug the hose I have going to my oil tank right? I can throw a -12 AN cap on the tank, and on the hose. I may try that at the track, after trying it the way I have it now.

What size cooler do you have? (row)

[Sgt.Gator]

So I can basically just plug the hose I have going to my oil tank right? I can throw a -12 AN cap on the tank, and on the hose. I may try that at the track, after trying it the way I have it now.

What size cooler do you have? (row)

Yes on the -12AN caps, that's what I did. Today I'll remove the line and and run the 3/4" direct into the PCV vent. I already have the -12AN cap on the tank. I was using plastic tees but they are starting to deform from the heat. When I have metal tees and and a metal 90 with a 1/8" NPT vacuum/boost fitting installed to a gauge on the dash I'll post up pics.

My oil cooler is very small, a narrow 13 row, and compact. No fan, air is ducted from a NACA duct:

https://www.holley.com/products/plumbing_an_fittings_and_hose/cooling_systems/oil_and_transmission_coolers/narrow/parts/21300ERL

The Earl's coolers are nice because the -AN fittings can be swapped out for different sizes.

It's probably a little too small. If I step up I'll get a narrow 25 row and mount it sideways. Or invest in a Spintric, depending on how that works for you. If you stay with 0-40 oil and the Spintric does the job I may follow your lead and go back to the 0-40 Euro Spec + Spintric. But that reintroduces the low RPM oil pressure, which is now gone with the 20W50 VR1. The VR1 Synthetic might be the middle ground and still half the cost of Mobil1 Racing.

And I have the oem water/oil heater/cooler too.

Nice dip stick! I'll probably just put marks on a piece of aluminum or steel rod though.

I have a couple of other ideas for reducing the foaming. I've been reading about industrial equipment oil de-aerators and de foamers. They use two additional principles:

1) Some use a #60 mesh screen in the tank to give the bubbles a matrix to form on and release. So a simple mod would be adding some screen in manner that has the oil flowing thru it.

2) And there are some that work on the same idea of the Spintric, forcing the oil out to the wall and letting the air release in the center. The Peterson tank sort of tries to do that, but I think I may have a better method.

Here is the Peterson baffle:


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/V8BOFVrinctxrKOODN8_PmpBTQ9QaBoTS_BAMAEqqVQ=w386-h374-no

There is an industrial system that starts the spin at the top of a funnel shape, as the oil spins down the funnel it flows thru perforations in the funnel, releasing the air up a center column.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/cD4CNZgtORPdrL-dJZkn0fID1HXSi1lT5PDogU8Gqkk=w1000-h532-no

So combining these ideas into a device that replaces the Peterson baffles with a funnel column that has a screen in it, and a released air shaft up the middle.

I think I could make them for less than the cost of a Spintric. Or I could waste a lot of time when the Spintric already does the job better!