Oil issues: Dry Sump, Accusump for road racing?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

We mocked up our Aviaid dry sump install on my blown engine.

My forester AC compressor bracket wouldn't work. Fortunately I had one off an Impreza:
58981

Then mounted the Aviaid pump adaptor bracket.
58982

Then Mounted pump: I choose holes based on easiest access to bottom fitting:
58983

Then mounted belts. This belt is 2" longer than the original AC belt.
Just noticed that the belt packages our on opposite sides.
58984

Done:
58985

[walt555]

Do we need the connection to the intake. I was thinking I could just cap it off and run the dry sump vent separate.

[Hindsight]

Nice work Bob!

[walt555]

Hi Gator,
My Aviaid parts will be here Monday except for the tank.

I understood that the Aeromotive and all the vacuum reliefs/regulators I found a auto parts sources wouldn't work because there is no way to put a fitting on the air intake side.
The only thing I can fine is the industrial (heavy) types.
Maybe I'm over engineering this and should just go with something like this with a KN filter hat.

http://www.gzmotorsports.com/VCV101A-Vacuum-Control-Valve.html
Bob

Bob,
Do we need the intake connection? I would think the intake should be divorced from the DS system.

[Wayne Presley]

Bob,
Do we need the intake connection? I would think the intake should be divorced from the DS system.

Agree

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Do we need the connection to the intake. I was thinking I could just cap it off and run the dry sump vent separate.


Bob,
Do we need the intake connection? I would think the intake should be divorced from the DS system.

walt555,
I am finding there are a lot of opinions on how to vent or seal the engine.
Is soon as I think I got it figured out. A person that I trust tells me something different.

So only take this information as my opinion.
1. With a dry sump, I agree that intake and crankcase should not connect.
2. I do not agree with totally sealing up the motor. I think this would restrict the flow of the scavenge lines.
3. if a vacuum regulator is used to let air into the crankcase, it must be set lower than the pumps will pull.
4. I feel that the all crankcase gases (blow by) should exit out the top of the dry sump tank.
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Whether you run a closed system or an open one there is no need for an intake connection. Part of the beauty of a DS is not having any connections to the intake that can dump oil into it. For my new build I'm mocking up the intake with a 3" aluminun tube, no perforations into it at all.

59025

If you want to run an open system just run a hose from the former PCV opening in the block to the DS Tank. If you want to run closed, seal it up. If you want to run closed but with a regulator put a vacuum regulator on the PVC block connection or on the former oil fill hole.

[RetroRacing]

Here is our set up, after we removed the engine for the pump seal leak!
590405904159042

We preset the vacuum valve at 20hg on the bench, I will test it the next time we start her up tonight hopefully. It takes 2.5 hours to remove an engine and another 2.5 to put it back in.

WE also have to fix a leak in the tank, seems the v-band doesn't want to seal. :(

[RetroRacing]

59043590445904559046

[Hindsight]

Clean!

[FFRSpec72]

Here is our set up, after we removed the engine for the pump seal leak!
590405904159042

We preset the vacuum valve at 20hg on the bench, I will test it the next time we start her up tonight hopefully. It takes 2.5 hours to remove an engine and another 2.5 to put it back in.

WE also have to fix a leak in the tank, seems the v-band doesn't want to seal. :(

So the dry sump pump had a bad seal ? What kind of hoses did you use (brand/make) ?

[RetroRacing]

No, the Cosworth oil pump we put in has a bad lip seal we think, as the front of the pump is wet.

We are using the Earl's Performance Ultra-Flex 650 Hose ($40 per foot) but way easier to make up and super light and flexable. You can use the standard fittings with it, just don't feel you have to bury the fitting on the dash 12, no pressure and it gets really tight!

The tank leaks at the seam, even with the vband clamp full tight, so I fixxy tonight.

[Scargo]

When you put the pump on did you apply sealant to the three bolts on the left side (per the FSM)?

[DanielsDM]

Here is our set up, after we removed the engine for the pump seal leak!
590405904159042

We preset the vacuum valve at 20hg on the bench, I will test it the next time we start her up tonight hopefully. It takes 2.5 hours to remove an engine and another 2.5 to put it back in.

WE also have to fix a leak in the tank, seems the v-band doesn't want to seal. :(


Looks good! In my experience the v-band DS tanks can be difficult to seal. DO NOT overtighten the clamp or you can deform the thin wall large diameter tank and it will never seal.
What headers are you running? From the picture it looks like they are above the bottom of the main frame but slightly below the rear sub-frame? is that correct?

[RetroRacing]

first of all, I am an idiot and Gator a god. We set the vacuum valve off the engine, but it was new, probably needed to be cycled, blah blah, short story, it was set at 25hg.....so that sucked the seal in on the oil pump. It was also sluggish in reving and has fluctuating oil pressure (high and good, but up and down).
Pulled the pump, seal is fine but put our 11mm in just in case. the valve is now set at 12hg and the engine is supper happy!!

That is a Perrin EL header, it sits about 3/4" below the main frame and is double wrapped (each tube and both together). Sealed the tank last night, the tank was not sitting squarely on the seal.

Now, if the weather will play nice, we will go and test this weekend (Friday and Sunday) at the ridge.

[Sgt.Gator]

I think Retro has conclusively proven that the internet wisdom that you must run 4 scavenge stages to get a vacuum in a Subaru engine is total BS. Even a 2 stage system can suck the seals in!
That's probably the reason Chad had issues when he tried to run a closed system. He didn't have a vacuum gauge hooked up and the Element kit doesn't come with a relief regulator. So he had the fluctuating oil pressures like you, and probably was close to damaging his seals too. In my case my gauge never showed more than 12inches of vacuum so it wasn't a problem.

But now that we've disproven that theory it's obvious to me that every DS needs at least a vacuum gauge in the driver compartment as a minimum, and should include a relief valve for safety. I guess those engineers at Cosworth actually knew what they were doing!

I'm glad you caught it before you arrived at the track for a test day. If you can hook up a pressure transducer to your data logger it might be helpful diagnosing engine problems. I found some really cheap ones on Amazon and some more expensive ones at Ashcroft. I'm going to hook up one of the cheap ones to my logger and run it a 2 hz which shouldn't take up much memory, along with a gauge I can glance at.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01I97G4O6/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A37WKN555BCG91

[FFRSpec72]

OK, I'm stupid here, what do I need to do when hooking up the Element dry sump ? Do I need to get a relief regulator? If so which one ? Anything else I need to do. I know that Gator wants me to also take off the Killer-B oil control valve and the oil separator.

[RetroRacing]

Depends on what you want, vacuum in the block or not. Oil control is covered by either depending on what you want to do. Hear are your two options:
1. No vacuum in the block= hook all of your vent lines together to make one big vent ling (two from heads, one from block) and then run them to the "vent in" on the top of the dry sump tank. Put a breather filter on the "vent out" side of the tank.
2. Vacuum in the block= Hook all of your vent lines together with a T to equalize the pressure in the heads and block. That seals the block and heads together. Then, make a flat plate out of 1/4" aluminum drilled to fit where the oil filler tube was (we actually cut the filler tube off to keep the o-ring and mount for the filler tube, it works as a spacer now). order a http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-Fluid-Systems-Adjustable-Vacuum-Regulator/2677011/10002/-1, then drill and tap, or weld in a bung, to fit it.

now, set ours up like morons, which kinda worked out for us to set the thing on the bench. We first adapted the thing down to a male 1/2" NPT (not cheap, but fun) and drilled/tapped our 1/4" plate as a mount. That allowed us to take it off the engine, screw on a nipple to the 1/2" npt male fitting and set the vacuum with a pump and guage, then screw it back onto the engine. Setting at the wrong vacuum level sucked (literally) but it was an easy fix.

Hope this helps, I'm sure Gator will probably explain it better.

Jeff

[Sgt.Gator]

Tony, what Jeff said above, or option #3

3. Vacuum in block = Fab a flat plate of aluminum or steel and drill holes to bolt over the oil fill hole in the driver head. You can seal it with Fujibond/Right Stuff. I think there's a pic of what I did many pages back, but it's very simple.

http://parts.subaru.com/images/parts/subaru/fullsize/G11_03001056.png

Leave the OEM balance bar from the rear head vents to the balance bar block port alone. Then tee the two front vents on the heads together. Off the tee run a line to the former PCV fitting on the block (back of block). Now your block is all sealed up. Somewhere in that line from the front vent tee to the PCV port use the Aeromotive relief fitting mentioned in above post 487. Simple. The Aeromotive even has a 1/8" NPT port for a gauge or a transducer.
https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/product/vacuum-pump-regulator/

https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/33101.jpg

Aeromotive Vacuum Pump Regulator Instructions:
http://aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/331-0107-0NoRev.pdf

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, what Jeff said above, or option #3

3. Vacuum in block = Fab a flat plate of aluminum or steel and drill holes to bolt over the oil fill hole in the driver head. You can seal it with Fujibond/Right Stuff. I think there's a pic of what I did many pages back, but it's very simple.

I hope I could just use Michie3 oil filler tube cap that I already have http://zerodecibelmotorsports.com/products/oil-fill-tube-and-cap/ since it is aluminum and has a threaded cap, should provide a good seal

[Sgt.Gator]

I hope I could just use Michie3 oil filler tube cap that I already have http://zerodecibelmotorsports.com/products/oil-fill-tube-and-cap/ since it is aluminum and has a threaded cap, should provide a good seal

That should work. Or get Mechie to thread the tube so you can screw the Peterson Regulator right into it.

59097

[RetroRacing]

Damn, that will be perfect!

[Mechie3]

What's the thread on the peterson piece?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

What's the thread on the peterson piece?
It is a -12AN thread. That thread is 1 1/16" with a pitch of 12
http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/engine_breath.html

[Sgt.Gator]

It is a -12AN thread.
http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/engine_breath.html

Here's the Cosworth version:

59106

[Mechie3]

Looks to be an O-ring Boss type fitting? Anyone know the size o-ring? Wish standards for these types of things were more readily available (or free). Technically the o-ring doesn't need a counterbore to sit in, but I really don't like o-ring's not constrained on the OD.

[Sgt.Gator]

Looks to be an O-ring Boss type fitting? Anyone know the size o-ring? Wish standards for these types of things were more readily available (or free). Technically the o-ring doesn't need a counterbore to sit in, but I really don't like o-ring's not constrained on the OD.

I have the info, I'll post it up this afternoon.

[FFRSpec72]

Looks to be an O-ring Boss type fitting? Anyone know the size o-ring? Wish standards for these types of things were more readily available (or free). Technically the o-ring doesn't need a counterbore to sit in, but I really don't like o-ring's not constrained on the OD.

So were you thinking of offering a new oil fill tube that is threaded for the regulator or offering a new cap with threads for regulator for existing folks that have your oil fill tube ?

[Mechie3]

I would look at making at least a one off of a new tube. A new cap means you have three leak paths vs just two if it hooks straight into the tube.

[DSR-3]

Wish standards for these types of things were more readily available (or free). Technically the o-ring doesn't need a counterbore to sit in, but I really don't like o-ring's not constrained on the OD.

Lot's of info here;
Parker O-Ring Handbook (https://www.parker.com/literature/O-Ring%20Division%20Literature/ORD%205700%20Parker_O-Ring_Handbook.pdf)
And the always helpful McMaster Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/#o-rings/=14d938d)has good info and selection of O-rings (and almost everything else in this world!).

[Mechie3]

Lot's of info here;
Parker O-Ring Handbook (https://www.parker.com/literature/O-Ring%20Division%20Literature/ORD%205700%20Parker_O-Ring_Handbook.pdf)
And the always helpful McMaster Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/#o-rings/=14d938d)has good info and selection of O-rings (and almost everything else in this world!).

I've used the parker oring handbook a lot, just never for ORB. Didn't realize they were in there. Thanks.

I did finally find that the AN standard is essentially just the SAE J514 and found some dimensions here for ORB's:
http://www.cpvmfg.com/technical-resources/fittings-data-brazing-methods/o-ring-straight-thread-boss-sae-j514/

Interesting that the SAE J514 shows a spot face (dimension F) and parker (MS33649) does not for the o-ring to sit on. The hardest part of finding these is knowing the standard number and getting lucky enough to have it come up in a search for 12AN. Once you find that number you can often find the standard (for free) but if you can't....good luck!

Also found a terrible copy of MS33656 which gives dimensions for the male AN fittings if you wanted to make your own:
http://everyspec.com/MS-Specs/MS3/MS33000-MS33999/MS33656J_13785/

[Sgt.Gator]

There is a very small counterbore in the top of the Cosworth adaptor. The O-ring on the regulator is SAE dash 912 aka Parker 3-912. It's also the same ring that goes on the -12AN ORB fittings on the pump and the pan. I upgraded mine with Viton -912.

[FFRSpec72]

There is a very small counterbore in the top of the Cosworth adaptor. The O-ring on the regulator is SAE dash 912 aka Parker 3-912. It's also the same ring that goes on the -12AN ORB fittings on the pump and the pan. I upgraded mine with Viton -912.

You are all a bunch of geeks !

[Sgt.Gator]

You are all a bunch of geeks !

I only know this because when Element Tuning sent my kit they forgot to include the O-Ring for the -12AN ORB fitting that screws into the ARE pan so I had to figure this all out a year ago. I have a package of Viton 912 O-Rings if anybody needs one!

[Zach34]

Interesting that the SAE J514 shows a spot face (dimension F) and parker (MS33649) does not for the o-ring to sit on. The hardest part of finding these is knowing the standard number and getting lucky enough to have it come up in a search for 12AN. Once you find that number you can often find the standard (for free) but if you can't....good luck!


Thanks for the links!

I may be wrong, but I didn't think the o-ring sits on the spot-face. I thought the spot-face was simply to ensure the male fitting bottoms there to guarantee that the o-ring plunges a specific distance into the compound chamfer section. Why else would it specify in zoomed-in detail the precise dimensions of the chamfer?

[Mechie3]

Don't know. My only experience with ORB's is hooking up some fuel rails that I didn't make.

It doesn't look like I'll be able to make an oil port fitting myself. We don't have the right sized tap in my building. Having a friend checking the other building for me. Taps are $60. We also don't have internal threading inserts to make it on the CNC. I can still make a CAD model and have it quoted at a shop if people are interested.

[Sgt.Gator]

Don't know. My only experience with ORB's is hooking up some fuel rails that I didn't make.

It doesn't look like I'll be able to make an oil port fitting myself. We don't have the right sized tap in my building. Having a friend checking the other building for me. Taps are $60. We also don't have internal threading inserts to make it on the CNC. I can still make a CAD model and have it quoted at a shop if people are interested.

I was already working on one for my kit to be available in the spring. The first quote I got back was $95 each. I'm trying to find a better cost now.

[FFRSpec72]

I was already working on one for my kit to be available in the spring. The first quote I got back was $95 each. I'm trying to find a better cost now.

Need it sooner than spring !!!!

Craig, I can pay for the tap if that helps

[Sgt.Gator]

Need it sooner than spring !!!!

Craig, I can pay for the tap if that helps

Tony I'll loan you my Cosworth fitting until I can make my own version. I can get it shipped tomorrow. I want it back though! PM me your address.

[RetroRacing]

We just used an O ring style female to dash 10 male, then tapped our cover to 12" npt and screwed in a male dash 10. Now, it comes off with a dash 10 wrench for adjustment. easypeasy lemon squeezy

[Mechie3]

We just used an O ring style female to dash 10 male, then tapped our cover to 12" npt and screwed in a male dash 10. Now, it comes off with a dash 10 wrench for adjustment. easypeasy lemon squeezy

Isn't that mixing straight threads with tapered threads?

[FFRSpec72]

Just verifying, I was told by Element Tuning that I need to remove the Killer-B baffle and Killer-B oil pickup ?

[Wayne Presley]

Just verifying, I was told by Element Tuning that I need to remove the Killer-B baffle and Killer-B oil pickup ?

That is correct

[Sgt.Gator]

I got a surprise tonight. I'm re-building my 2005 STI which I know is the correct year for the A/C bracket we use for the Aviaid plate to work right. I got the bracket bolted to the block and when I went to install the Aviaid mount plate discovered only three mounting holes!

59170

Apparently because it's a race car some previous owner had removed the A/C in the race conversion and decided that top mount hole wasn't doing anything and it's in the way, so he cut it off.

A new OEM one costs $195! I've got my recycle/wrecker guy looking for one at a more reasonable cost.

[Zach34]

Crappy luck.... Would be a good opportunity to practice some cast aluminum welding, if you're into that kind of thing

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I got a surprise tonight. I'm re-building my 2005 STI which I know is the correct year for the A/C bracket we use for the Aviaid plate to work right. I got the bracket bolted to the block and when I went to install the Aviaid mount plate discovered only three mounting holes!

59170

Apparently because it's a race car some previous owner had removed the A/C in the race conversion and decided that top mount hole wasn't doing anything and it's in the way, so he cut it off.

A new OEM one costs $195! I've got my recycle/wrecker guy looking for one at a more reasonable cost.

My 04 & 05 foresters donors have a totally wrong ac bracket. I had one off a 06 NA impreza that fit perfect.
Bob

[Zach34]

Are the block castings the same in that area across engine model/years? In other words, can you bolt on a 2005 sti compressor bracket to any year 2.5 (or 2.0 for that matter) block?

[Wayne Presley]

Are the block castings the same in that area across engine model/years? In other words, can you bolt on a 2005 sti compressor bracket to any year 2.5 (or 2.0 for that matter) block?

Yes you can

[biknman]

Howdy yawl,

Avid 3 stage worked great for me for almost five years just had pump overhaul by Aviaid! Unfortunately can't use it due to NO Dry Sump allowed in class I want to hill climb my 818 (when built) in. :-(

May put my set up for sale also have a bunch of -12AN new fittings/hose as I was going to move the tank from the firewall to the middle of the car. :-0

Note I ran my block's/head's CCV closed loop, with a breather tank off the dry dump tank, used a Peterson vacuum control valve on one of the CCV's, pumped oil straight into where oil filter screws in, and scavenged from 2 -12an fittings welded into custom made pan. Never had any a rod bearing issues, excessive oil burn, and seals never leaked, regularly data-logged up to 2g's Lat. :-) Hardest part for me was sourcing the very unique die (from the UK) to make a custom Crank shaft bolt that was long enough to be able to bolt the pulleys on an mandrel to the crank, needed to align the pump and alternator (no power steering using EPAS) correctly.

http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/biknman/MY%2003%20WRX%20Race%20car/CopyofIMG_20130504_190013_zps44dc3fd4.jpg (http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/biknman/media/MY%2003%20WRX%20Race%20car/CopyofIMG_20130504_190013_zps44dc3fd4.jpg.html)

Video

https://youtu.be/Zf_eXAQ1x0M

TNX
Dave

[Scargo]

Dave, I've always appreciated your creativity. Is that Aviaid three-stage pump all suck or is one an oil pump?
Did you see my latest for my STi? (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12631-818Rasmus-E-Modified&p=233663&viewfull=1#post233663) They should be finished dynoing it by tomorrow. This has an external Peterson pressure relief valve/KB pan. Might be worth combining with dry sump. Am still enamored with the Dailey system. Seeing yours I might be swayed. How did you drive the alternator?

[biknman]

Just used a Moroso Alternator Pulley 23556 on the ALT and on the crank mandrel and a HTD Alternator Pulley 40-Tooth P/N 23558. If your interested PM before I post it all for sale. Here is a video I did tonight:

https://youtu.be/Kz_AWph-X4Q

[biknman]

Here is a pic I took tonight after removing the pump it's bracket, the alternator bracket and pulley, belts, crank mandrel with alternator and pump pulleys, and the sump pan from the block.
http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/biknman/MY%2003%20WRX%20Race%20car/79398C73-BA1B-41F5-AC4D-740293D63A30_zpsqemtk7co.jpg (http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/biknman/media/MY%2003%20WRX%20Race%20car/79398C73-BA1B-41F5-AC4D-740293D63A30_zpsqemtk7co.jpg.html)

Lastly couple more things to note on what I found doing a custom 3stage (2suck1pressure)dry sump system on my Scooby race car. It takes a very custom hard to find die for making a custom crank shaft bolts so you can get the spacing of the HTD or Glimmer pulley on a mandrel to fit your needs to align the belt properly. It took me almost a year and got it form a guy in middle nowhere UK. I can dig it out and let yawl know the size of your interested before I sale it with my other stuff. Be mindful of the suction side hoses as the pump can suck hard enough to pinch the hoses off. And because it's a boxer it can be a pain to keep the hoses from header heat. Note this has a pressure stage so you don't need the stock pump to work so gut the out gear out of the stock pump but leave the rest of the oil pump housing as it needs the be there for the crank seal and the timing belt drive pulley spacing. Also depending on where you chose to pump the oil into the block determines oil filter and pressure regulation. Via the original pickup point through the fitting on the pan allows you to use stock oil filter and the pressure regulator (by pass rather) in stock oil pump housing. Via the special -12an to 20mmx1.5 fitting in the oil filter feed galley will require the pressure by-pass Spring (rear of pump) be set and checked and the use of an inline oil filter like I did.
Happy dry sumping y'all ;-)
Dave

[DanielsDM]

What was special about the bolt? Is it not a standard thread?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

biknman
Nice pile of parts. I have a expensive pile just like it. Like everything else on the 818, it takes some creative engineering to make things fit.
I'm working on my sump pan tonight. My current exhaust is OEM un-egual length, but I also have a cheap equal length exhaust. Finding a solution that is acceptable to me is not going well.
Bob
59387 59389

[biknman]

What was special about the bolt? Is it not a standard thread?

Yup not standard by any means. Need to stop by the shop and verify but from memory it's been six years ago the bolt measured physically 12.8 mm x thread pitch 1.5 mm with the tap size at M13x1.5. Easy to find taps not dies and the only "bolts" are for use as drain plugs nothing in a 6-8" long grande 8 bolt :-(

[biknman]

biknman
Nice pile of parts. I have a expensive pile just like it. Like everything else on the 818, it takes some creative engineering to make things fit.
I'm working on my sump pan tonight. My current exhaust is OEM un-egual length, but I also have a cheap equal length exhaust. Finding a solution that is acceptable to me is not going well.
Bob
59387 59389

Looks good! Yup with all the different type and ways to run a the various intake manifolds, fuel rail set ups, AVCS / TGVs or not, etc etc each 3 stage setup is unique unless you go with one of those $4k setups. The headers are a reason I made my own. I prefer the thicker Sc40 Stainless for headers any-who just seems to work better for me and not common or super expensive already made, But I also have the tools and sources to do it cheap so. Them there billet or forged dry sump pans are rather expensive so I fabricated my own dry sump pan using the OEM pan's mounting flange and some -12an steel Male fittings. This way I can also still run say a Killer B or Moroso 6qt wet sump pan with my headers or the dry sump pan. :-) Them billet sumps are mighty pretty though!

[Scargo]

... Them billet sumps are mighty pretty though! I'm very surprised that those making these pretty parts can't think outside the box when working from a clean sheet, a block of aluminum and a five axis machining center. Designs could be more fluid, eliminate and/or simplify fittings and direct the inlets/outlets away from header interference points...
My goal was to work with a Dailey system and build an exhaust much like you have tacked together that puts the turbo in front and exhausting out the side. If it's a race car, I see the fuel cell being where most have gone >> in the passenger seat area.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

On our dry sump pan, I decided that some of the braided lines were to close to the headers for my liking.
I'm afraid that even with fire wrap sleeving, that the rubber hose might melt. So I decided to go with flared hard lines.

Should I use aluminum , copper, steel or stainless steel?
What is a good bender for 5/8 OD and 3/4 OD tubing you selected above?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Bob

[C.Plavan]

On our dry sump pan, I decided that some of the braided lines were to close to the headers for my liking.
I'm afraid that even with fire wrap sleeving, that the rubber hose might melt. So I decided to go with flared hard lines.

Should I use aluminum , copper, steel or stainless steel?
What is a good bender for 5/8 OD and 3/4 OD tubing you selected above?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Bob

I was worried also- I just used fire braid wrap (doubled up in close areas) then used the OEM Header Heatshields (on OEM headers of course- since they did not sit below frame like other headers). Everything was good. I even checked an oil line when I was replacing the oil pump to see if it was heat damaged (cut into it). It was all good, no issues.

[Zach34]

On our dry sump pan, I decided that some of the braided lines were to close to the headers for my liking.
I'm afraid that even with fire wrap sleeving, that the rubber hose might melt. So I decided to go with flared hard lines.

Should I use aluminum , copper, steel or stainless steel?
What is a good bender for 5/8 OD and 3/4 OD tubing you selected above?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Bob

I used this bender to make my own 5/8" aluminum crossover vent tube to replace the rusty stock one. I'll post pictures later.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003ANYTCO/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It has a pretty tight 2 1/4" bend radius and worked well on some annealed aluminum tube from Summit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G2558

I'd be surprised if it worked well on stainless tube. Stainless is so much more difficult to bend. I have no plans to make anything out of 5/8" stainless tube with it, but if someone has some scrap they'd like to send me, I'd be happy to try bending it and report back. Ridgid makes a ratcheting bender for 5/8" with a 3" radius of bend - might work better.

The problem you'll run into with the hardlines is you will never get close to the bend radius you can get out of a 90-degree hose fitting. You have to have the tube sleeve pre-installed on the tube before you bend it (otherwise the sleeve will not slide through the bend), which means you have to flare it before you bend it. So you end up with about a 1.5" straight section after your flare before the bend starts. The bend radius of those hose fittings is probably less than 1 inch. It might work for you - just a consideration to keep in mind.

Another issue is while the bender makes a smooth bend in the aluminum tubing, it does collapse it slightly in the bend (not as bad as a compression-bent exhaust tube, but not nearly as good as mandrel-bent). I don't know if a slightly collapsed -12 tube would restrict oil flow too much or not. Probably not, but worth thinking about.

The best solution is probably Chad's - sleeving and heat shield.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I used this bender to make my own 5/8" aluminum crossover vent tube to replace the rusty stock one. I'll post pictures later.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003ANYTCO/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It has a pretty tight 2 1/4" bend radius and worked well on some annealed aluminum tube from Summit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G2558

I'd be surprised if it worked well on stainless tube. Stainless is so much more difficult to bend. I have no plans to make anything out of 5/8" stainless tube with it, but if someone has some scrap they'd like to send me, I'd be happy to try bending it and report back. Ridgid makes a ratcheting bender for 5/8" with a 3" radius of bend - might work better.

The problem you'll run into with the hardlines is you will never get close to the bend radius you can get out of a 90-degree hose fitting. You have to have the tube sleeve pre-installed on the tube before you bend it (otherwise the sleeve will not slide through the bend), which means you have to flare it before you bend it. So you end up with about a 1.5" straight section after your flare before the bend starts. The bend radius of those hose fittings is probably less than 1 inch. It might work for you - just a consideration to keep in mind.

Another issue is while the bender makes a smooth bend in the aluminum tubing, it does collapse it slightly in the bend (not as bad as a compression-bent exhaust tube, but not nearly as good as mandrel-bent). I don't know if a slightly collapsed -12 tube would restrict oil flow too much or not. Probably not, but worth thinking about.

The best solution is probably Chad's - sleeving and heat shield.


I was worried also- I just used fire braid wrap (doubled up in close areas) then used the OEM Header Heatshields (on OEM headers of course- since they did not sit below frame like other headers). Everything was good. I even checked an oil line when I was replacing the oil pump to see if it was heat damaged (cut into it). It was all good, no issues.

Thanks Chad an Zack,
With OEM header there is a lot more space to get the hoses out of the hot box. I trying to use some cheap ebay EL headers.
The best way for me to get the 2 scavenge line out is through the hole behind the water pump. With two -12 hoses, on would probably end up touching the header. I would put fire wrap on it no matter what.
I talked to John from Aviaid and said two -10 scavenge line would be enough. If I can get two -10 (5/8"OD) tubes through that hole, it solve my concerns. I want to go with steel tubing so I may have to get creative with bender without spending a fortune.

[Scargo]

I would use steel or stainless steel. First, I would look at the header pipe(s) and see if they could be altered. I'd still do steel unless you can get about an inch away, minimum. Then, everything needs to be well wrapped or shielded.
I just had a friend (Subaru STi) have an oil hose burst, make him spin out and caught his car on fire. Not good.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I would use steel or stainless steel. First, I would look at the header pipe(s) and see if they could be altered. I'd still do steel unless you can get about an inch away, minimum. Then, everything needs to be well wrapped or shielded.
I just had a friend (Subaru STi) have an oil hose burst, make him spin out and caught his car on fire. Not good.

Scargo
We are thinking the same. I'll have something to show you in a couple of days.
Bob

[RetroRacing]

Our fire had NOTHING to do with the dry sump, pictures and explanation are posted on the build thread. What we did with running vacuum in the block worked perfectly, but based on instructions from Elements, we might just change that to vent depending on what the dyno sais with our new engine. The way we have our vents set up, its a 2 minute change to test both.

[FFRSpec72]

Our fire had NOTHING to do with the dry sump, pictures and explanation are posted on the build thread. What we did with running vacuum in the block worked perfectly, but based on instructions from Elements, we might just change that to vent depending on what the dyno sais with our new engine. The way we have our vents set up, its a 2 minute change to test both.

I will most likely run vent and not vacuum, as Leo is having good luck with his setup in the 818R

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I would use steel or stainless steel. First, I would look at the header pipe(s) and see if they could be altered. I'd still do steel unless you can get about an inch away, minimum. Then, everything needs to be well wrapped or shielded.
I just had a friend (Subaru STi) have an oil hose burst, make him spin out and caught his car on fire. Not good.


Scargo
We are thinking the same. I'll have something to show you in a couple of days.
Bob

Scargo,
I followed your suggestion to use steel lines to my dry sump pan.
I didn't want to take a chance of melting a hose.(or worse)
I test fitted this EL header and the OEM UL header wit all factory heat shield.
I still have to fire sleeve the tubes and Hoses. I will also wrap the headers.
Bottom view:
59637

tubes under header:
There is two fingers of clearance between headers and tubes.
59638

Tubes up the side:
I have a short piece of vacuum rated in the vertical tubes for flexibility.
59639

Top View:
The pump hoses are working out.
59640

Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Bob that looks very interesting. I hope you don't get too much vibration or flex in those hardlines that would cause them to crack.

[Zach34]

How did you end up bending them?

[Scargo]

Bob, I echo Gator's concern. You said "I have a short piece of vacuum rated in the vertical tubes for flexibility." That should help considerably but I'd anchor them to the engine anyway because there is that mass that is technically suspended and vibrating off two points. I've had steel fuel lines fatigue and crack.
Looks good though. Very clean and tight to the motor. I wonder why this isn't more common? At least I've not seen much of it. -10 AN/5/8" tube, right?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob that looks very interesting. I hope you don't get too much vibration or flex in those hardlines that would cause them to crack.

I am adding a support bracket near the flex joint.


How did you end up bending them?

I used a harbor freight pipe bender (kinker) with a bending spring around the tube. At 90 degrees it would just start to kink the tube. http://www.mcmaster.com/#2420a16/=14kv1h6


Bob, I echo Gator's concern. You said "I have a short piece of vacuum rated in the vertical tubes for flexibility." That should help considerably but I'd anchor them to the engine anyway because there is that mass that is technically suspended and vibrating off two points. I've had steel fuel lines fatigue and crack.
Looks good though. Very clean and tight to the motor. I wonder why this isn't more common? At least I've not seen much of it. -10 AN/5/8" tube, right?

It was hard and time consuming to make the tubes.
I took the tubes to a local hydraulic shop and the flared them for me in 10 minutes. $12 total.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#9220k371/=14kuzwk $12 for 6 feet.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Today I spent some time getting the dry sump tank ready.
Here are some pictures:

59709
A lot of shiny aluminum will look nice in the back of the vehicle. It is a 10 quart tank.

59710
This is the inside bottom of the tank, the pickup tube sucks up oil going to the Subaru OEM pump.

59711
This is the inside top of the tank. The circular tube is the hot oil and air come from the scavenge pump. The centrifugal force of the spinning air throws the heavier oil against the walls of the tank. There is a cap in the top of the tank. The tube sticking out in the top middle of the tank, is the clean air going to the breather tank. The other hole in the top of the tank goes to the vent holes in the top of the engine. I am going to tie mine into the crossover tube that goes to the top of the two valve covers. I will block off the PCV vents in the block.

59708
This is the baffle plate that separates the oil from the air chambers.

[Scargo]

Thanks for that description and pics! Looks well designed and nicely built. Does the "10 quart tank" refers to it's rated capacity (leaving the necessary air headroom above the baffle plate)? I calculated that, with my STi system, I have 2.8 quarts in the Accusump, cooler, filter and lines and 6 quarts in the pan. Would you have a total of ten quarts or would a complete system oil change be more? When running, might the tank only hold five quarts?
Is there a port for adding a heater?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Thanks for that description and pics! Looks well designed and nicely built. Does the "10 quart tank" refers to it's rated capacity (leaving the necessary air headroom above the baffle plate)? I calculated that, with my STi system, I have 2.8 quarts in the Accusump, cooler, filter and lines and 6 quarts in the pan. Would you have a total of ten quarts or would a complete system oil change be more? When running, might the tank only hold five quarts?
Is there a port for adding a heater?

Scargo,
I believe the 10 quarts is the whole tank. So you would only put about 6 or 7 quarts of oil in it.
I figure my big oil filter is 1 quart and the lines, marine cooler, and engine is another quart.
The pan is zero. So the total in my system is 8 or 9 quarts.

There is not a port for a heater.
Here is a list bottom to top.
-12 drain plug (heater wont work there as pick up is in the way)
-12 oil out to Subaru pump.
-12 oil & air in from scavenge pump
-12 air to breather
-10 air to top of engine
quarter turn oil fill cap.

Bob

[FFRSpec72]

I have the Aviaid 10 Litre tank (7.5" x 16") with Pressure out, Drain Out, Breather Out, Savage In, Vent In

[FFRSpec72]

OK, what size are the bolts that hold the A/C and now the Dry Sump pump to the AC bracket as they are course thread and don't look metric and could not find any yesterday to finish mounting my pump. Are these M8x75 ?

[RetroRacing]

I think the ones holding the pump to the bracket are M8x1, but ours had nuts and washers. If you are talking about the ones holding the bracket to the engine, they are 8x1.25

[FFRSpec72]

I think the ones holding the pump to the bracket are M8x1, but ours had nuts and washers. If you are talking about the ones holding the bracket to the engine, they are 8x1.25

My bracket is threaded (where the A/C compressor would mount and where the pump will mount now), the bolt size seems to be M8 but all I have is M8x1.25 and that is too fine a thread, the original bolts that hold the compress are way too long. So my guess would be M8x75x40 or maybe they are a DIN thread ? anyway I can't find any course thread M8, maybe a 5/16 course thread will work ?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

My bracket is threaded (where the A/C compressor would mount and where the pump will mount now), the bolt size seems to be M8 but all I have is M8x1.25 and that is too fine a thread, the original bolts that hold the compress are way too long. So my guess would be M8x75x40 or maybe they are a DIN thread ? anyway I can't find any course thread M8, maybe a 5/16 course thread will work ?
Tony,
My Aviaid pump bracket uses M10 x 1.25 35mm long
My Aviaid pump uses 1/4-20 x 3.75" grade 8.
bob

[FFRSpec72]

Tony,
My Aviaid pump bracket uses M10 x 1.25 35mm long
My Aviaid pump uses 1/4-20 x 3.75" grade 8.
bob

So the M10 x 1.25 35mm long thread into the stock Subaru A/C Bracket ? I marked the bolts in the picture below that I need

59814

[RetroRacing]

Ours were drilled out and had a nut and washer if I remember correctly, but I will check tonight

[Bob_n_Cincy]

So the M10 x 1.25 35mm long thread into the stock Subaru A/C Bracket ? I marked the bolts in the picture below that I need

59814

Tony,
My aviaid kit came with both M10 x 1.25 x 35 and m10 x1.5 x 35.
The m10x1.25 are still in the box. So the M10x 1.50 must be the ones I used.
Sorry for the confusion.
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Definitely M10 x 1.5 . Lowes sells them in various lengths.

[Mulry]

Via the special -12an to 20mmx1.5 fitting in the oil filter feed galley will require the pressure by-pass Spring (rear of pump) be set and checked and the use of an inline oil filter like I did.
Happy dry sumping y'all ;-)
Dave

With regard to the oil filter feed galley, how did you plug the hole for oil to go out to the filter? Tap and set-screw? I think that's how I'm going to get the oil into our engine too. Thanks.

[RetroRacing]

What Gator said, I was mistaken with the nut thing.

[RetroRacing]

With regard to the oil filter feed galley, how did you plug the hole for oil to go out to the filter? Tap and set-screw? I think that's how I'm going to get the oil into our engine too. Thanks.

I don't understand, you have two side of the oiling system with the drysump in this configuration. You have the scavange/feed side and the pressure side. The pressure side uses an adapter for a remote filter and cooler (pressure through the filter, through the cooler, then back to bearings). The scavenge/feed side only sucks the oil from the pan and sends it to the tank that feeds the stock pump. I will probably install a filter between the scavenge pump and the tank but you want as little restriction possible on the scavenge/feed side so I'm told. I'm starting to wonder if I should plumb the filter and cooler between the tank and the pump, to bring down the balloon size on the pressure side. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[FFRSpec72]

With regard to the oil filter feed galley, how did you plug the hole for oil to go out to the filter? Tap and set-screw? I think that's how I'm going to get the oil into our engine too. Thanks.

I don't understand, you have two side of the oiling system with the drysump in this configuration. You have the scavange/feed side and the pressure side. The pressure side uses an adapter for a remote filter and cooler (pressure through the filter, through the cooler, then back to bearings). The scavenge/feed side only sucks the oil from the pan and sends it to the tank that feeds the stock pump. I will probably install a filter between the scavenge pump and the tank but you want as little restriction possible on the scavenge/feed side so I'm told. I'm starting to wonder if I should plumb the filter and cooler between the tank and the pump, to bring down the balloon size on the pressure side. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I'm just going to leave the remote oil filter and cooler as I have it now without the dry sump feeding off where the standard oil filter went

[Mulry]

With regard to the oil filter feed galley, how did you plug the hole for oil to go out to the filter? Tap and set-screw? I think that's how I'm going to get the oil into our engine too. Thanks.

I don't understand, you have two side of the oiling system with the drysump in this configuration. You have the scavange/feed side and the pressure side. The pressure side uses an adapter for a remote filter and cooler (pressure through the filter, through the cooler, then back to bearings). The scavenge/feed side only sucks the oil from the pan and sends it to the tank that feeds the stock pump. I will probably install a filter between the scavenge pump and the tank but you want as little restriction possible on the scavenge/feed side so I'm told. I'm starting to wonder if I should plumb the filter and cooler between the tank and the pump, to bring down the balloon size on the pressure side. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

What might clear this up is if you have a photo or part number for how you're getting the oil back into the engine after the pressure stage of the oil pump?

[Scargo]

If I'm understanding the line of questioning, then more to the point is what do you do with the gaping holes where the filter normally sits? In most of the common DS systems we are seeing here, the dry sump pans collect oil and immediately suck it out and return it (back through a fitting on the front edge of the pan) to the spot on the block where the stock oil pickup tube normally attaches. Though I haven't seen one, I would assume the oil filter mount area is covered with a block-off plate.

[Mulry]

If I'm understanding the line of questioning, then more to the point is what do you do with the gaping holes where the filter normally sits? In most of the common DS systems we are seeing here, the dry sump pans collect oil and immediately suck it out and return it (back through a fitting on the front edge of the pan) to the spot on the block where the stock oil pickup tube normally attaches. Though I haven't seen one, I would assume the oil filter mount area is covered with a block-off plate.

This was precisely the point of my question. There are 2 holes at the oil filter location on the bottom of the block. In stock form, the large, threaded hole in the middle is where the oil returns to the engine from the oil filter. The small, unthreaded hole to the side is where pressurized oil leaves the block to go through the oil filter.

In a dry sump system, you remove the oil through the scavenge plate. You could return it through the large threaded hole -- but you have to do something to block the small hole.

It sounds like biknman is using the large threaded hole as his oil feed to the engine, which was the point of my original question -- what is he doing to plug the other hole?

To clarify further, I'm not using the stock oil pump, but a 3-stage pump (2 scavenge, one pressure), as is biknman.

[FFRSpec72]

If I'm understanding the line of questioning, then more to the point is what do you do with the gaping holes where the filter normally sits? In most of the common DS systems we are seeing here, the dry sump pans collect oil and immediately suck it out and return it (back through a fitting on the front edge of the pan) to the spot on the block where the stock oil pickup tube normally attaches. Though I haven't seen one, I would assume the oil filter mount area is covered with a block-off plate.

Not me, using a moroso remote oil mount and keeping the stock oil heat transfer thing, so you don't have to do anything in that area.

[Mulry]

Not me, using a moroso remote oil mount and keeping the stock oil heat transfer thing, so you don't have to do anything in that area.

Are you just plugging the out side of the Moroso remote oil mount with an AN o-ring plug?

[FFRSpec72]

Are you just plugging the out side of the Moroso remote oil mount with an AN o-ring plug?

No it will function like it does now, it will flow oil to the filter and cooler, so lines go to filter and then cooler and back to engine

[Scargo]

Tony, Sick!
Here's one option, like/similar to what Biknman used:
59932
Just an innie.

[Mulry]

Tony, Sick!
Here's one option, like/similar to what Biknman used:
59932
Just an innie.

Yeah, that's what I have now. So there are 2 questions with that unit:
1. needs a male-male union to connect that Moroso plate to the oil galley input at the oil filter location; anybody found one of those in the right length yet?
2. Question about how to plug the oil out-to-stock-filter hole remains unanswered. Also known as the original question I asked.

[FFRSpec72]

Yeah, that's what I have now. So there are 2 questions with that unit:
1. needs a male-male union to connect that Moroso plate to the oil galley input at the oil filter location; anybody found one of those in the right length yet?
2. Question about how to plug the oil out-to-stock-filter hole remains unanswered. Also known as the original question I asked.

Are you using the stock heat exchanger or have you removed that ?

[Mulry]

Removed it.

[RetroRacing]

guys, the oil pump picks up the oil from the same pickup point. There is an o-ringed step up in the pan, with two bolts that bolt the pan tightly to the stock pickup tube mount. you could leave everything else stock if you wanted, or put in an adapter to run a remote filter/cooler set up. THis is system has no pressure stage, it just moves allot of oil from the pan to the tank. THe oil pick up is plumbed directly to the bottom of the tank so no oil pickup problems.

[Mulry]

That makes sense. So you could either run a filter on the stock location, run a remote there (if you're not already plumbing a remote in with the dry sump system), or you could just block it off entirely. Fair conclusion?

[Zach34]

Good grief, this thread got confusing as hell today.

Mulry is quoting bikman, who used a custom 3-stage system (1 pressure, 2 scavenge). Every other person in this thread, to my knowledge, is using some variation of the scavenge-only system produced by Element or Cosworth where the stock oil pump functions as the pressure stage and so the stock oil filter can be used (or a remote setup can be installed just as you could on a stock WRX).

bikman plumbed the output of his external pressure stage directly to the input of the oil filter port using an adapter. If you're not using an external pressure stage like he did, you don't have to worry about that adapter - you're going to use the stock filter or remote filter setup.

[Sgt.Gator]

LOL, I was typing my post below when Zach34 cleared it up already.

My comments only pertain to the Element Tuning/Cosworth style system that relies on the OEM oil pump for block/heads lubrication.
You can run a stock oil filter in the stock location. The simplest.
You can put a sandwich adaptor on the stock filter location and run hoses to a remote cooler. Generally you have to use the OEM "cooler/heater" to get a sandwich plate to work because 95% of the sandwich plate adaptors don't have room to fit up against the block with the filter below. I'm not sure which one will fit against the block.
You can run a remote system off the oem filter location.
And you can run the pressure stage that returns to the tank thru a cooler and I suppose a remote filter on the way to the tank. I don't know why you would run the OEM filter in the OEM location AND run a remote filter on the tank line but I think there's enough pressure to do it.

Don't put a filter or a cooler in the line from the tank back to the OEM pump pickup in the DS pan. You don't want the OEM pump to have to "suck" hardly at all. That's why the tank is mounted slightly higher than the bottom of the DS pan, so the oil will flow naturally by gravity from the tank to the pan/pickup.

Generally in all the research I've done and the way my system runs most Subaru folks keep the OEM filter, ditch the OEM cooler/heater, and put a cooler on the line that goes to the DS tank.

As for systems that include block pressure stage(s) on the pump, that's another discussion.

[walt555]

This was precisely the point of my question. There are 2 holes at the oil filter location on the bottom of the block. In stock form, the large, threaded hole in the middle is where the oil returns to the engine from the oil filter. The small, unthreaded hole to the side is where pressurized oil leaves the block to go through the oil filter.

In a dry sump system, you remove the oil through the scavenge plate. You could return it through the large threaded hole -- but you have to do something to block the small hole.

It sounds like biknman is using the large threaded hole as his oil feed to the engine, which was the point of my original question -- what is he doing to plug the other hole?

To clarify further, I'm not using the stock oil pump, but a 3-stage pump (2 scavenge, one pressure), as is biknman.

Could you use a canton remote oil filter adapter part numbe 22-597 and just plug the output side?

[Scargo]

Yes... Almost any number of solutions. Here's one.
60006
If you retain the use of the stock oil pump you could also simply modify internally an adapter to return the oil, thus avoiding using a filter for that purpose.

If you wanted to go to extremes... I was looking at a block and the area where the filter mounts. I think you could tap the outlet hole and then plug both holes. Next you would redirect the oil supply right where the oil goes from the pump into the block by creating a hole up into the return passage. This new hole or passage would connect the existing passages going to and coming from the filter mount. It would require some drilling, tapping and plugging and possibly some work with a burr to smooth the transition of the new passage, but I think it could be done without welding. I assume welding on a case would be a bad idea.
All this, on the basis that there is a filter elsewhere in the DS system.

[walt555]

Doesn't the current DS pans ARE OR Aviaid in a 3 stage system, feed oil thru the stock location and gut the oil pump then either use stock oil filter or canton type filter adapter with filter and cooler. Are there draw backs going this route verses adapting to the oil filter location?

[FFRSpec72]

So what hose have people been using as I was looking at Earl's Pro-lite 350 hose and Aeroquip AQP Socketless hose

[RetroRacing]

Earl's Pro-lite 350 hose

[Scargo]

Aeroquip Startlite Race Hose

[Sgt.Gator]

So what hose have people been using as I was looking at Earl's Pro-lite 350 hose and Aeroquip AQP Socketless hose

I asked ANPlumbing.com that question, they said "Auto Flex, Perform o Flex, Ultra Flex SS , HS79, or Ultra Pro SS work fine".

[FFRSpec72]

I asked ANPlumbing.com that question, they said "Auto Flex, Perform o Flex, Ultra Flex SS , HS79, or Ultra Pro SS work fine".

Not heard of most of those before.

[C.Plavan]

Summit AN hose. Been using it forever (Porsche's and 818's). My Porsche oil hose is going on 11 years, no issues. Cheap and good.

[Scargo]

Many ways to skin a cat. RCR (http://rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/store/product/552-rcm-dry-sump-system-ej202225) cover brings oil in from the external pump on the bottom. Integrated, undermount design similar to Daley. You still have to deal with the filter mount area.
6006360062

[Sgt.Gator]

In my post above about hoses I should have been more clear, I asked ANPlumbing for their recommendation for the scavenge hoses that see vaccum, not the pressure or return hoses.

[Zach34]

Is that RCM kit still available? That's the first I've seen of it.

[Sgt.Gator]

I've run into two issues installing the Cosworth DS.

1) The 720 mm HPD belt is about 10 mm too short. The instructions are very adamant that there should be NO tension on the belt. Heck I can't even get it over the pump pulley at all, much less no tension. I checked into a slightly larger belt but the next size up from three manufacturers is 800 mm which will be way too long. The possibility to use an 800 would be to run the tensioner on the cogged side (inside) of the belt instead of the smooth outside. I suppose that since the tensioner is just a smooth idler pulley exactly like the timing belt idlers and there's really no tension, it just takes up slack, it might be ok, but IDK.

For now I'm trying to stretch the 720 mm belt a half inch using a floor jack with a couple of 3" pipes on each side to not bend the belt over too sharp a corner. It's helped a tiny bit, but not enough yet. See pic of my Colonel Red Racing belt stretcher!

Ideas?

2) I thought all the connections were -12AN. They are not, the hose from the pump > cooler> tank is -16AN. Of course my tank has all -12AN fittings and the cooler as well. Somewhere either right at the pump or probably at the cooler I have to go down to -12AN. Since this is for my STI and the cooler +tank are in the trunk I think it's best to neck down right at the cooler so the long line is still -16AN. However it would be a lot easier and cheaper to run -12AN all the way from the pump. The Element Tuning systems many of use run a -12An but the lines to the tank are pretty short. And in Element's Tie Attack car the tank is in the passenger foot/door area which is a pretty short run. Having had the tank in the same place in my Legacy, there's no way I'm putting the tank in the cockpit for enduro races, the heat is unbearable.

And a couple of pics of the engine build. 2.7L Stroker.

6018160182601836018460192

[biknman]

60188 Just sold my setup ( thanks to Doowop) so took couple quick pics of the tap 1/2 -16 BSF I used to make custom length crank bolt so you can install an HTD pulley on a mandrel and Align to the pump

these are of a factory crank bolt 6019060189

[biknman]

Doesn't the current DS pans ARE OR Aviaid in a 3 stage system, feed oil thru the stock location and gut the oil pump then either use stock oil filter or canton type filter adapter with filter and cooler. Are there draw backs going this route verses adapting to the oil filter location?

Yes they do. I did it both ways. No real drawback just a different way of doing it. Both routes the stock oil pump gears are gutted. Via the stock oil pan pick up point though a dry sump pan you're pushing oil up through the stock guted oil pump then through the galley to the oil filter thru the filter into the galley to feed the bearings. Which allows you to use the stock pressure bypass spring in the stock oil pump and the stock oil filter pluses. Or you can bypass all that and feed the oil from the pressure stage of the dry sump straight into the bearings via the stock oil filter location center hole (12mmx1.5). This requires having a pressure spring bypass on the dry sump's pressure stage which allows you to externally set oil pressure via bypass spring a plus and then you'll need to filter the oil after the pump before the oil galley, I did this with an Peterson 400 series filter.

Hope this helps :-)

[biknman]

I've run into two issues installing the Cosworth DS.

1) The 720 mm HPD belt is about 10 mm too short. The instructions are very adamant that there should be NO tension on the belt. Heck I can't even get it over the pump pulley at all, much less no tension. I checked into a slightly larger belt but the next size up from three manufacturers is 800 mm which will be way too long. The possibility to use an 800 would be to run the tensioner on the cogged side (inside) of the belt instead of the smooth outside. I suppose that since the tensioner is just a smooth idler pulley exactly like the timing belt idlers and there's really no tension, it just takes up slack, it might be ok, but IDK.

For now I'm trying to stretch the 720 mm belt a half inch using a floor jack with a couple of 3" pipes on each side to not bend the belt over too sharp a corner. It's helped a tiny bit, but not enough yet. See pic of my Colonel Red Racing belt stretcher!

Ideas?

2) I thought all the connections were -12AN. They are not, the hose from the pump > cooler> tank is -16AN. Of course my tank has all -12AN fittings and the cooler as well. Somewhere either right at the pump or probably at the cooler I have to go down to -12AN. Since this is for my STI and the cooler +tank are in the trunk I think it's best to neck down right at the cooler so the long line is still -16AN. However it would be a lot easier and cheaper to run -12AN all the way from the pump. The Element Tuning systems many of use run a -12An but the lines to the tank are pretty short. And in Element's Tie Attack car the tank is in the passenger foot/door area which is a pretty short run. Having had the tank in the same place in my Legacy, there's no way I'm putting the tank in the cockpit for enduro races, the heat is unbearable.

And a couple of pics of the engine build. 2.7L Stroker.

6018160182601836018460192
Here's my two cents you do not want and HTD or a glimmer belt to be too tight you will wear out your bearings surfaces in your pump super quick :-0. You should be able to twisted the belt halfway. So it's considered kind of rather lose compared to other type accessory drive belts. Belts are cheap and can be bought lots of places as they are used in lots of other applications other than motorsports check out McMaster Carr. Heck I even have one on my bicycle replacing the old chain and cogs ;-P!

Yeah them dog-gone tanks ;-)! For the tank I've had it located in the front right corner of the car (not 818) behind the engine where the stock turbo location would be after moving my turbo to the front of the engine, both of which the tank got beat up by gravel from the tires, bump drafting, and armco / Jersey wall smacks hee hee :-0! The tank gets really dirty if in the engine bay or external. For some reason those oil tanks they get so hot oil just kindof leeches out or whatever through the aluminum (for lack of better explanation) and the whole oil tank is covered in oil which attracts dirt and makes a big old mess. So the best location to keep the thing clean is in the cab but that adds an immense amount of heat to the cockpit which has to be managed :-(. But this all was on a Suby chassis not an 818 chassis.

[DanielsDM]

Thanks for the info biknman!
We are putting together our own dry sump setup and it is good to have details on how it's been done on the EJ engine.

[Scargo]

Today I have been looking at Reynolds values, ID's of AN fittings and flow rates for 10, 12 and 16AN fittings. For instance a 10AN hose is .56" nominal ID and the fittings are .484" nominal ID. 12AN is .69" ID and the fitting ID is .609". 10AN is .184” squared. 12AN is .291” squared. That’s 63% more area!
Good AN fitting-hose-tube sizing info from Pegasus website (https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/document.asp?DocID=TECH00096). There is where I got this chart.
60201
I have been curious about the fact that I have nothing that is even 12AN and only fittings on my oil cooler that are 12AN. I admit, I did not study fluid dynamics and I still have some concepts that are fuzzy in my head. The fittings restrict flow more than anything else. As an orifice, are they completely dominant when it comes to the overall flow rate? A 16AN hose may improve efficiencies and offset reduced flow from bends in fittings and hoses and internal friction for that portion of the run (especially the longer the runs) but any smaller fitting in the run would determine the final flow rate, wouldn’t it? Is the 16An there to allow a slowdown of the velocity of the oil so air separates out? Doesn’t the vacuuming volume from the sump need to exceed the output of the pressure pump or otherwise you would have oil accumulating in the bottom of the engine? This infers that a fair amount of air is drawn in with the oil.
With my wet sump system I run only 10AN. I have two hoses in my external oil filter and oil cooler route that are 4 to 5 feet long. I ran an 11mm pump for 70+ track hours without any oiling issues and no bearing failures. This may have no bearing on a DS system however. I welcome any clarification or correction.

[DanielsDM]

Today I have been looking at Reynolds values, ID's of AN fittings and flow rates for 10, 12 and 16AN fittings. For instance a 10AN hose is .56" nominal ID and the fittings are .484" nominal ID. 12AN is .69" ID and the fitting ID is .609". 10AN is .184” squared. 12AN is .291” squared. That’s 63% more area!
Good AN fitting-hose-tube sizing info from Pegasus website (https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/document.asp?DocID=TECH00096). There is where I got this chart.
60201
I have been curious about the fact that I have nothing that is even 12AN and only fittings on my oil cooler that are 12AN. I admit, I did not study fluid dynamics and I still have some concepts that are fuzzy in my head. The fittings restrict flow more than anything else. As an orifice, are they completely dominant when it comes to the overall flow rate? A 16AN hose may improve efficiencies and offset reduced flow from bends in fittings and hoses and internal friction for that portion of the run (especially the longer the runs) but any smaller fitting in the run would determine the final flow rate, wouldn’t it? Is the 16An there to allow a slowdown of the velocity of the oil so air separates out? Doesn’t the vacuuming volume from the sump need to exceed the output of the pressure pump or otherwise you would have oil accumulating in the bottom of the engine? This infers that a fair amount of air is drawn in with the oil.
With my wet sump system I run only 10AN. I have two hoses in my external oil filter and oil cooler route that are 4 to 5 feet long. I ran an 11mm pump for 70+ track hours without any oiling issues and no bearing failures. This may have no bearing on a DS system however. I welcome any clarification or correction.

You are correct that the fittings restrict the flow most (on a system where the pipe length is short in comparison to the number of fittings). However having a couple fittings that are a smaller size won't restrict the flow down to where it would be if the entire system was the smaller size. Everytime there is an abrupt change in diameter or direction there is pressure drop. So use as few fittings as possible, make bends as large as possible.
There are some online flow calculators that may be useful. http://www.pressure-drop.com/Online-Calculator/ This one is free, a little clunky UI but it's free.
http://www.pipeflowcalculations.com/ This one is better but not free.

[Scargo]

...There are some online flow calculators that may be useful. http://www.pressure-drop.com/Online-Calculator/ ...
Funny, that it is exactly what I have been using. I get a Reynold's number of 7-8K for .56 ID (10AN). It does seem to be in the range of being turbulent but that's as much as I can make of it. Commonly used 12AN is still at 5.9-6.7K.
I wonder if turbulence (from too constricted a system) is something I/we should worry about in a closed system? It's not like there is an opportunity for air to be introduced. The pump appears to be capable of dealing with and overcoming the 8+ PSI (or so) drop in the system I have roughly calculated, if accurate. A 12AN size hose drops pressure loss to around 3 PSI.
Again, I'm getting into an area where I lack the educational background to feel very comfortable in spouting off... so what works for me is purely anecdotal.

[DanielsDM]

Every piping system I have worked on operated in the turbulent region. It is not economical to size components to operate in the laminar flow region (in most cases). You just determine how much pressure drop you can live with and design accordingly.

[Sgt.Gator]

Aeroquip has a page of technical documents. One download is Flow Capacities of Hose Assemblies http://aeroquipperformance.com/file/2777-Flow+Capacities+of+Hose+Assemblies.pdf

Using the Aeroquip chart and the largest Subaru oil pump flow of 3.5 gallons/min, a .750 -12AN hose is more than large enough, unless I'm missing something.

The rest of the documents are here: http://aeroquipperformance.com/rt-2899-quality-technology.html

[Zach34]

I've run into two issues installing the Cosworth DS.

1) The 720 mm HPD belt is about 10 mm too short. The instructions are very adamant that there should be NO tension on the belt. Heck I can't even get it over the pump pulley at all, much less no tension. I checked into a slightly larger belt but the next size up from three manufacturers is 800 mm which will be way too long. The possibility to use an 800 would be to run the tensioner on the cogged side (inside) of the belt instead of the smooth outside. I suppose that since the tensioner is just a smooth idler pulley exactly like the timing belt idlers and there's really no tension, it just takes up slack, it might be ok, but IDK.

For now I'm trying to stretch the 720 mm belt a half inch using a floor jack with a couple of 3" pipes on each side to not bend the belt over too sharp a corner. It's helped a tiny bit, but not enough yet. See pic of my Colonel Red Racing belt stretcher!


I don't think stretching that belt is a good idea. If you stretch it, the distance between the teeth will increase, but the distance between the grooves on the pulleys does not - which means you will wear out the belt fast and possibly cause it to fail. Seeing it rigged up on your floor jack like that......... I would just throw that belt away now.

I agree with biknman in that I don't think you want to run those belts with much tension on them, either. The only experience I have with them is on Ducatis, and they have non-spring-loaded tensioners that are set to a surprisingly loose tension (the ballpark estimate is when you can twist the belt about 45 degrees with two fingers). Much different than a serpentine belt.

[Sgt.Gator]

I don't think stretching that belt is a good idea. If you stretch it, the distance between the teeth will increase, but the distance between the grooves on the pulleys does not - which means you will wear out the belt fast and possibly cause it to fail. Seeing it rigged up on your floor jack like that......... I would just throw that belt away now.

I agree with biknman in that I don't think you want to run those belts with much tension on them, either. The only experience I have with them is on Ducatis, and they have non-spring-loaded tensioners that are set to a surprisingly loose tension (the ballpark estimate is when you can twist the belt about 45 degrees with two fingers). Much different than a serpentine belt.

I tossed it. It was an interesting experiment though, even using as much pressure as I could it wouldn't stretch.

I did solve the problem though. The Cosworth pulley is 36 teeth. Luckily the pump uses a standard shaft and keyway. So a Peterson 35 tooth HTD gear fit very well. The new belt/pulley is not as loose as I would like, there is still no need for the A/C idler pulley to take up any slack, but I think it will be fine. A 34 tooth pulley would probably be perfect.

[Desertrunner]

Removed
as usual you guys have all the answers.

[flynntuna]

The same reason that the transmission fluid level on the dip stick is off too I suppose.

[Scargo]

Don't know if you guys are aware that the Subaru motor in a 818 sits flatter then in a Subaru car and what it does is give you a false reading on the dip stick. It will show the sump is full when in fact its not.
I tried to find a image of the motor and gearbox in a car so you could see what I mean.
It would be nice if you would post this elsewhere since it does not pertain to the thread.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

One of the main reasons I went for the micro v belt over the toothed belt had to do with the clearance between the harmonic balancer and the firewall. Adding a additional pulley on the front was to tight for me.
Bob
61135

[Rob T]

I did a partial oil replacement on my dry sump system yesterday. This was accomplished by draining and refilling the separator tank which holds just shy of 5 quarts. I am estimating that I got about half the oil in the system. As I plan to do frequent oil changes, this will probably work fine. I was hoping the forum could offer some additional advice. If I were to disconnect the AN fitting/hose that returns to the tank, could I keep the separator tank full and allow the engine to pull the oil from the separator tank and the scavenge pump to push the oil through all the hoses and coolers, thereby purging all the old oil and replacing it with new? I haven't been able to find out how fast the oil is pumping because if it is too fast, this would be a really bad idea. It may be a really bad idea anyway, but I think the concept works. This was not one of those things I was just going to "give it a go". Any thoughts, data, or other ideas would be welcome. If this is the dumbest idea you've ever heard, be kind, I am learning. :rolleyes: Thanks

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hey Rob,
I think your way is good to get all the used oil flushed out. If your changing to oil often, I don't think it is necessary to change every drop.
Here is a link to the corvette factory dry sump oil change procedure.

http://www.101corvetteprojects.com/2011/12/how-to-change-the-oil-on-the-corvette-z06-and-zr1/

basically; drain your tank, drain the small amount in the pan, change the filter and refill.
I always fill the filter with oil before screwing it on.
Bob

[FFRSpec72]

I thought that I would document my dry sump install parts, cost was around $3100

1 -Earl's Hose, Pro-Lite 350, BraidedNylon, -12 AN, 20 ft. Length
1 - Moroso Breather Tank, Dry Sump,Round, Aluminum, Natural, 1 qt. Capacity
6 - Earl's Fitting, Hose End,Swivel-Seal, 90 Degree, -12 AN Hose to Female -12 AN, Aluminum, Red/Blue
1-Earl's Fitting, Hose End,Swivel-Seal, Straight, -12 AN Hose to Female -12 AN, Aluminum, Red/Blue
2 - Earl's Fitting, Hose End,Swivel-Seal, 45 Degree, -12 AN Hose to Female -12 AN, Aluminum, Red/Blue
1-Earl's Fitting, Hose End,Swivel-Seal, 30 Degree, -12 AN Hose to Female -12 AN, Aluminum, Red/Blue
1-Element Tuning Dry Sump Kit (no hoses) with 7.5" diameter tank
1-Stock Subaru A/C mount and Idler adjuster
1-GatesK050345 Multi V-Groove Belt (https://www.amazon.com/gp/r.html?C=3JNG5JOTKOGN0&K=A3AESOLOEDWJTK&R=3PUSWXY2TI9KE&T=C&U=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fgp%2Fproduct%2FB0 00C2SIQO%2Fref%3Dpe_385040_121528360_pd_te_s_gr_ti %2F167-8829230-0517132&A=5RGIHN7EA91K6SVYQO9TYGY0MNEA&H=7BEJQQAJAZ6B7RGUVOVPJGXJV7IA&ref_=pe_385040_121528360_pd_te_s_gr_ti) (using stock crank pulley)
1-tube Genuine Toyota Fluid 00295-00103 Formed-in-Place Oil Pan Gasket - 3 oz. Tube

[Scargo]

Thanks, Tony! Are you happy with the Earl's fittings and are there any brands you won't use? I've shopped around a bit and had a couple that leaked or broke but, the problem is I don't know their brand...

[FFRSpec72]

Thanks, Tony! Are you happy with the Earl's fittings and are there any brands you won't use? I've shopped around a bit and had a couple that leaked or broke but, the problem is I don't know their brand...

Yes and the hose was great to work with and NO LEAKS !

[Mulry]

I'll have more on this topic sometime later this spring, but after putting my hands on them at PRI last December, we've moved to XRP's ProPlus Extreme hose for the lines that will see heavy suction, for a several reasons. It's a convoluted hose but the serrations are on the outside of the hose, so when you scatter a motor, the hoses are easier to clean out (versus those that are internally convoluted, it can be impossible to get all the metal out of those and I don't like throwing out expensive lines, if possible). And that means a smooth interior bore, so better flow rate. In addition, it has a stainless steel wire wound into it so it has the collapse resistance of a hose that you install a spring into, but it has better flexibility. They have reusable hose ends for these now, so you can build them yourself. And they're less expensive than the comparable Earl's product (which is internally convoluted, to boot). I bought mine through ANPlumbing.com, they don't always list these on their website but they were great to work with on the phone. There was a little misunderstanding on one of the sets of hose ends -- just a miscommunication -- and they fixed it ASAP, even sent me a UPS label to ship back the exchanged ends. Highly recommend them.

[FFRSpec72]

I'll have more on this topic sometime later this spring, but after putting my hands on them at PRI last December, we've moved to XRP's ProPlus Extreme hose for the lines that will see heavy suction, for a several reasons. It's a convoluted hose but the serrations are on the outside of the hose, so when you scatter a motor, the hoses are easier to clean out (versus those that are internally convoluted, it can be impossible to get all the metal out of those and I don't like throwing out expensive lines, if possible). And that means a smooth interior bore, so better flow rate. In addition, it has a stainless steel wire wound into it so it has the collapse resistance of a hose that you install a spring into, but it has better flexibility. They have reusable hose ends for these now, so you can build them yourself. And they're less expensive than the comparable Earl's product (which is internally convoluted, to boot). I bought mine through ANPlumbing.com, they don't always list these on their website but they were great to work with on the phone. There was a little misunderstanding on one of the sets of hose ends -- just a miscommunication -- and they fixed it ASAP, even sent me a UPS label to ship back the exchanged ends. Highly recommend them.

For those of us that are not running a vacuum we don't have to worry about the line collapse but we do have to worry about the ability to clean everything in case of a engine failure. So with a oil cooler, remote oil filter I have a lot of lines and parts to worry about, thanks for reminding me !

[Scargo]

I like the idea that XRP is coming out with a silicone coated version. Easy to keep clean and probably more heat resistant.
How do you know that a normal hose will collapse? I would think that a normal bend in SS braided hose couldn't collapse. I mean, it would have to be a hell of a vacuum, and an undesirably high one to do that, wouldn't it?
Just as an aside, I have successfully used -10AN Aeroquip Startlite Race Hose (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B001O0B0LI/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and another just like it (with a red tracer woven in) for several years without issues for remote filter, cooler and Accusump. The downside is it absorbs fluids into the weave (but so does SS covered hose).

[RetroRacing]

We don't run a ton of vacuum, so we have not seen an issue with hose collapse on the DS side of the system (3 dash 12 lines) using the Kevlar covered lines. Everything else is under pressure.

[Sgt.Gator]

The 2017 BRZ GT300. The most interesting thing is that I see a dry sump tank in the trunk. Apparently they have a solution to DS the FA20 engine.

https://youtu.be/vGyl8PERQco

And the 2017 Nurburgring 24 Hour STI is testing. Just race car goodness!

https://youtu.be/WCoaxhpp4cE

Wish I could understand Japanese !

[Sgt.Gator]

I was asked the distance between the face of the crank pulley and the face of the Cosworth drive mandrel. The answer is 1 7/8" .

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I was asked the distance between the face of the crank pulley and the face of the Cosworth drive mandrel. The answer is 1 7/8" .
Gator,
That would put a dry sump belt pretty close to the frame. I will measure stock pulley to frame.
Bob

[EODTech87]

I was the one that asked. Came across a killer deal on the dry Sump but I decided against it because of fitment issues. I didn't see it fitting because it appeared to stick out to much. Glad I did with it being almost 2"

[Mitch Wright]

Guys I know i have gone rouge here running my wet sump system on my 818R. I data log oil pressure, oil and water temp intake air temp at the throttle body, RPM, speed and G's. I am not seeing any fluctuation in oil pressure during a on track session. With the oil temp at 220* (currently running the OEM oil to water heater), water temp 176* at idle op is 56-58 psi and 75-78psi under load. The graph line is flat under accelleration, braking or 1.6 g corner load it doesn't change. I also am not seeing any knock at all.
I am not saying a DS system is not a good thing, I think they are great. But it looks to me with the data I have on my car a wet sump can do the job. I am running KB pan and windage tray, Crawford Air Oil Separator, KB Oil Control valve and Separator, Mobil One 5-50 Racing oil. I always pull my TMIC looking for oil in the intake system, it is dry. So all I can say is so far this combination is working on my track car. (the engine has 100K on it as far as I know)
this also has me wondering if some of the engine failures are due to detonation or some other tuning issue? I am also not making big HP I am running sub 300WHP

[Hindsight]

Mitch, great to have your data point! I have often wondered the same.... if some of these failures are not due to something else. I know pickup tube failure is common on some models, and I also wonder if people are keeping their oil all the way to the full line or a bit beyond. I hope you keep the wet sump on there and run for a good while like that so we can all learn from it. Are you running the KB pickup? You mentioned pan and tray but not pickup.

[Scargo]

... at idle op is 56-58 psi and 75-78psi under load.
That OP is is quite good. What oil pump? Shimmed? Where are you measuring the oil pressure?
You mentioned 100K on engine. Internals? Did you mod anything?

... 1.6 g corner load it doesn't change...
Sustained for what maximum time interval?

I am running KB pan and windage tray, Crawford Air Oil Separator, KB Oil Control valve and Separator, Mobil One 5-50 Racing oil...
You have all the good stuff! I have almost the same setup on two cars now except for KB's new valve. You are proof of what Chris of KB claims. I just wonder where the G threshold is? It is sustained high G's (along with poor oil control) that seem to be the achilles heel of these engines.

...this also has me wondering if some of the engine failures are due to detonation or some other tuning issue? I am also not making big HP I am running sub 300WHP
What RPM's do you use? That power level is a piece of cake for a decent motor.
I am building a sub-500 CHP engine right now for my new DD, where I have concentrated on the oiling system, breathing and balancing. Nothing wild and crazy (to me). 11mm ported and shimmed oil pump. External filter and cooler. Racing tolerances of .0015"/.002" while running a loose stock bore, and very light internal components. Aiming for a few more R's rather than HP. That is why I have a de-stroker motor on the shelf for my 818R.

[Mitch Wright]

Hindsight,
I plan to run the wet sump until it proves to be a problem, i also have a few tricks to try that i got from some folks in Europe. The oil pick up is also KB


The long block is as it came out of my donor, it had really good compression so freshened up the heads new timing belt kit and removed the TGV's. As far as I know the pump is what came in the engine when new (04 EJ205) Other than the TGV delete, clean up the port pockets and change to a JDM header and Twin scroll VF37 Turbo are the only engine mods, I did not shim the oil pressure relief valve. At 14psi of boost 256WHP and 18psi 285WHP I had Corbin set the rev limiter to 7100, very rarely do I run it past 6900.

NCM MSP has 2 long fast right handers (in the 818 they are 100mph+) 1.6G is the peak but 1.4-5 is sustained, 3 long medium speed right handers and 3 medium speed lefts and 1 fast left. When at work tomorrow I will take a look at how many seconds I see over 1 G and 1.4G I will post screen shot
Chris and I have spent a lot of time discussing ideas on what is need to make a wet sump work, also pick the brains of the guys at Moore Performance, Strker and a another team in Germany that I can't recall their name.

[Scargo]

Thanks! All great info! I'm curious about what the Germans shared unless you are sworn to secrecy. :o
It's interesting that Chris, of KillerB, is good about making himself available to customers by phone or forums. We have had many exchanges on NASIOC and I have met him. A good friend and track companion had an issue with a KB header and Chris made it right. That said, I like most of his products. Watch their thin SS baffle plate, as my friend has just had one stress fracture in multiple places and almost fail completely after three years of heavy track use.

[Hindsight]

Those are good oil pressures by the way. I'm seeing as low as 65psi on the track when my oil temps get up to 240 degrees. If I hit those temps, I back off a bit until they come back under control.

[Sgt.Gator]

Mitch that's good news. I hope it works for a long time for you!

Here's an awesome Time Attack build, Mark Jager's Redline Time Attack car. He went thru 4 engines in 2015....and another at the start of 2016. Now he's made some changes. I don't know how many were oiling issues and how many just couldn't take the extreme power. But note he has an ARE DS system now.

http://blog.jepistons.com/car-feature-mark-jagers-800hp-time-attack-wrx-sti...

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/2297913/JE%20Pistons/CAR_FEATURES/Mark%20Jager/_D803731.jpg

[Mitch Wright]

Sgt Gator,

I hope it works for a long time too.

That is a trick looking piece, We have a guy with an Evo that does the USCC series, I would guess he is making 500 plus hp and has gotten really good at changing out broken engines. I just want my engine to start when I push the button and make enough power to have some fun.

You had asked where I am taking oil pressure from, I have the sender in the back of the block off the passage next to the crankcase vent.

65859 here is a photo of the baffle they are sandwiching between a Cosworth style pan and windage tray that is similar to KB. I have made this baffle but have yet to install it.

[Sgt.Gator]

I have a couple of Cosworth Baffle plates that I bought used from Vermont Sports Car (the Subaru Rally Team USA). If anyone is interested PM me, I'll be putting them up in my eBay store soon.

I met the D Sport magazine folks at SEMA and subscribed to their print magazine. They cover the import market.

Here's the online version of one of their recent magazine articles, it's worth reading.

Subaru EJ257 Bottom-end Breakdown
http://dsportmag.com/the-tech/subaru-ej257-bottom-end-breakdown/

And stop the insanity!

:)

Roger Clark’s Sons Set Records in 880hp Time-Attack Gobstopper II STi
http://dsportmag.com/the-cars/roger-clarks-sons-set-records-880hp-time-attack-sti/

and same car:

http://www.speedhunters.com/2017/03/gobstopper-evolved-final-form/

You can see what I'm assuming is a dry sump at the bottom of the engine in this image;

65862

[Mitch Wright]

Thanks for the DSPort article, interesting.

[Sgt.Gator]

Here's an update on how my Cosworth DS is doing in my 2005 STI:
2 track days at ORP + 1 race weekend at Spokane. No issues!

At the ICSCC race in Spokane last weekend I ran in the ST sprint race, but more importantly two 1 hour Enduros. The second Enduro was in 90 degree heat. Oil pressures were rock solid strong even at the highest temps seen. I'm using a Cosworth modified OEM pump. Oil temps were amazingly low as long as I remembered to turn the Derale oil cooler fan on. Without the fan they maxed at 240, with the fan on they stayed at 200. If I short shifted and took it easier for a lap they would drop to 180-190 very quickly. Coolant temps also stayed in the lower half of the oem gauge.

Oil is Valvoline Racing 20W-50 Conventional. It's pretty cheap, less than $5/Qt on sale and is available at most regular auto parts stores.

I don't have a vacuum gauge on the crankcase yet so I can't comment on how much vacuum it's seeing. And since I'm running a sealed system with a vacuum relief valve there is no blowby/AOS issues to deal with. Eventually I'll add a vacuum gauge just out of curiosity.

Since this setup is very similar to the Element Tuning/Aviaid style setup with the exception that the DS pump is driven off a small mandrel on the crank pulley so the DS pump is turning at about 1/2 crank rpm, I am even more convinced that the Element Tuning type setup needs a underdrive crank pulley and an overdrive DS pulley to get the DS pump speed down.

And on a side note: I added a tranny cooler to my STI 6 speed by tapping the pre 2008 internal tranny oil pump to send the tranny oil to a cooler mounted up front. In my LGT Wagon racer I was never able to get tranny temps in the range I wanted after I swapped in a JDM STI 6 speed, they were hitting 260-265+. Tranny temps with the previous 5 speed were not an issue because the Subaru Road Race Team ( Joe Aquilante at Phoenix Performance) had installed a cooler and temp sender. My attempt to match what Joe had done with the 6 speed tranny was a fail. That was with a external pump. With my new setup in the STI they maxed out in the Enduro at 180. Perfect!

The 6 speed there is an easy place to install a temp sender. There's a 1/8th" BSPT fitting on the driver side front of the tranny you can insert a 1/8" NPT sender into. Since it's slightly different threads you'll need thread sealant on it and I wouldn't take it in and out. Just put it in and leave it. (Edit: removed reference to 5 speed for the 1/8" temp sensor port)

[RetroRacing]

Great news, and great seeing you at the track! We only had our RX7's out, but still had a blast (set two new track records for EIP) for race and quali in the low 33's. Can't wait to see what the 818 will do there, starting work on her again next week for a test in August.

[Sgt.Gator]

Great news, and great seeing you at the track! We only had our RX7's out, but still had a blast (set two new track records for EIP) for race and quali in the low 33's. Can't wait to see what the 818 will do there, starting work on her again next week for a test in August.

it was great seeing the Retro Team again. Are you coming down for the Rose Cup Races next week? I think Tony will be there in his 818 and I'll have the STI in RC2.

I have a new video/data system, Racelogic Video Vbox. The Video Vbox makes it easy to export any particular lap for sharing. Here's my fastest lap of the weekend, during the Enduro race:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpygkXo497E&feature=youtu.be

Gator Fastest Lap at Spokane Enduro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpygkXo497E&feature=youtu.be)

I'm working on a better format. The new one will have the PIP in the upper part of the screen so it's easier to see where the car is on the left side and the units will be MPH, not KPH.

[FFRSpec72]

Great lap ! I was there 2 weeks prior when we had a driver killed on the back straight, really sad day.

[Hobby Racer]

For both the 5 speed and 6 speed there is an easy place to install a temp sender. There's a 1/8th" BSPT fitting on the driver side front of the tranny you can insert a 1/8" NPT sender into. Since it's slightly different threads you'll need thread sealant on it and I wouldn't take it in and out. Just put it in and leave it.

I plan to put a trans cooler in my 5MT. Do you have a pic of the BSPT fitting you are taking about, I can't seem to find it on my trans!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I plan to put a trans cooler in my 5MT. Do you have a pic of the BSPT fitting you are taking about, I can't seem to find it on my trans!

You will have to add a pump to the 5MT.
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Great lap ! I was there 2 weeks prior when we had a driver killed on the back straight, really sad day.

Yeah they told us about the death at the driver's meeting. Very Sad. I'm sure it was horrible being there.


I plan to put a trans cooler in my 5MT. Do you have a pic of the BSPT fitting you are taking about, I can't seem to find it on my trans!

I still have my LGT 5 speed in the garage, I'll take a pic tomorrow.


You will have to add a pump to the 5MT.
Bob
Correct. Or if he monitors his trans temps with the sensor he may not need a cooler for the typical 30 minute race or hpde.

[Mulry]

Correct. Or if he monitors his trans temps with the sensor he may not need a cooler for the typical 30 minute race or hpde.

For future reference, I've found a thermal switch to be useful to prevent having to actively monitor temps on supplemental coolant circuits, something like this:

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=10285

It's a little trickier to use with a pump because you might not achieve accurate temps until the pump is actually running (catch-22!) versus having it inline in a remote oil filter/cooler setup where the oil is constantly flowing already. But you can simply wire that to the ground side of the control circuit on the relay and run the relay high-current power to the pump (or a fan) and not have to have one more switch to worry about flipping while trying to concentrate on the driving.

[Sgt.Gator]

Mulry I have the Setrab 200 switch to control my Derale Oil Cooler fan next to the dry sump tank. It works well.

What I meant in my post to Hobby Racer was that he doesn't necessarily need to install the pump and cooler yet. He can install the temp sensor / gauge and if it shows he never gets too hot then he doesn't need to install the all the plumbing. If he's running max 30 minutes events he may not heat up the tranny oil, although I did with my 6 speed trans even in 30 minute races.

So I've gone crazy trying to figure out how I had the temp sensor in the 5 speed hooked up! I don't have any pics of it and I can't find where I thought it was on the 5 speed. It's possible I was confused with the 6 speed banjo bolt that has the 1/8" plug in it. Sorry about that. They must have had the temp sensor in the transmission oil cooler line.

[Hobby Racer]

So I've gone crazy trying to figure out how I had the temp sensor in the 5 speed hooked up!

Glad I'm not missing something obvious! I think I'm going to remove the drain plug and put in a Tee fitting so I can hook up my temp sensor and then plum the the other branch to the external pump.

[Mulry]

Just wanted to cross some information over into this thread as it's germane to the oil sump discussion. The Canton 22-597 remote oil filter adapter will work on the stock oil filter location on the EJ205 block with the stock oil cooler removed. The adapter is female threaded, as is the block, so you also needs an M20x1.5 union bolt to connect the two. Here is the link to the Canton adapter, I got mine from Summit:

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=22-597

The metric pipe fitting was harder to find, but this is the one that I got from Discount Hydraulic Hose, part 9001-20-20:

https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/9001_Metric_x_Metric_p/9001.htm

Big huge thanks to Bob_n_Cincy for supplying the info about the Canton unit!

[Scargo]

Just wanted to cross some information over into this thread as it's germane to the oil sump discussion. The Canton 22-597 remote oil filter adapter will work on the stock oil filter location on the EJ205 block with the stock oil cooler removed. The adapter is female threaded, as is the block, so you also needs an M20x1.5 union bolt to connect the two. Here is the link to the Canton adapter, I got mine from Summit:

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=22-597

The metric pipe fitting was harder to find, but this is the one that I got from Discount Hydraulic Hose, part 9001-20-20:

https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/9001_Metric_x_Metric_p/9001.htm

Big huge thanks to Bob_n_Cincy for supplying the info about the Canton unit!

The Canton 22-597 is what I and others use on our STi's to route hoses to go up the face of the timing cover to remote oil components. You may find that a minor bit of grinding on the cover is required and you want to use the smaller hex-sized 10-AN to 1/2" NPT fittings if possible for better clearance/fit.
Note: Be very careful not to overtighten the Canton adapter. If you tighten too much it will squeeze out some of the square seal and tear it as it extrudes it. Tighten the big nut much like you would tighten an oil filter. Also of note is, I haven't found another adapter that sits up as high as the Canton. You need this height for the fittings to clear the cover.

The union fitting you mention is a standard Subaru part and also sold on Ebay and elsewhere and also sold as a cheaper non-OEM fitting. Often referred to as a "Subaru Oil Cooler Delete Fitting" it is a "union, oil-pump", #15018AA090.
Oakos has a good price (https://www.oakos.com/15018AA050.htm?gclid=CjwKCAjw64bPBRApEiwAJhG-fjvP1lPBKmvuEwUVtu_duRpclrRvXjzCnEexyuy4wviAEQVTrK 3mMhoCMFQQAvD_BwE).

[Mulry]

Those are good tips. Wish I'd known about that Subaru fitting, it was a real PITA to find one otherwise.

I ordered our drive mandrel, oil drive pulleys and belt yesterday. We will do test fitment the weekend after next before we send out the custom oil pump mount for CNC milling. At some point, I'll do a full writeup on our system -- once we've confirmed it works :)

[Scargo]

... At some point, I'll do a full writeup on our system -- once we've confirmed it works :) Glad to help.
Other related posts: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?20279-Removing-Oil-Factory-Oil-Cooler&p=229350&viewfull=1#post229350 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?20279-Removing-Oil-Factory-Oil-Cooler&p=229350&viewfull=1#post229350)
Pictures of Canton adapter installed. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14697-Help-Headers-that-will-actually-fit-a-2006-2-5L-motor&p=156734&viewfull=1#post156734)

I know what you mean about telling the world about what you've done before you've proven it out.
On NASIOC (https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45375002&postcount=245)(where I'm Scargod) I've discussed installing a Peterson external oil pressure relief valve.
This was after I've put 15+ hours on this setup. That might be of interest to this group/discussion. However, some have expressed concern about aeration but I've had nothing but good results from it and I run either 430 or 470 at the wheels and up to eight grand on this oiling system. It could be if you plumbed it differently you might have an issue or if you used a different oil pump that you might have an issue. So, use at your own risk but it's worked for me and I am about to duplicate it on a EJ255 build but with an 11mm pump.

[DanielsDM]

Mulry,
IIRC you're running an external pressure pump (scavenge and pressure in 1 housing). If so it will have an adjustable bypass setting so I don't think an external relief valve is necessary. I don't intend on running one, but my setup isn't proven either so we'll see what it needs when I actually get it on the track.

Thanks for the info Scargo.

[Mulry]

You're right, we're running an external pump with 2 scavenge stages and one pressure stage, in no small part so that we can regulate the pressure via the bypass setting. I certainly hope I don't need to add one more expensive piece to this puzzle, but who knows at this point.

[Scargo]

Mulry,
IIRC you're running an external pressure pump (scavenge and pressure in 1 housing). If so it will have an adjustable bypass setting so I don't think an external relief valve is necessary. I don't intend on running one, but my setup isn't proven either so we'll see what it needs when I actually get it on the track.

Thanks for the info Scargo.
You (and all) are welcome. I hope I am being helpful... To be clear, I was not talking in the context of using it with a DS system but about my track STi. With my top-heavy beast I cannot generate 818 G's and do fine with a Killer B system and good blowby management.
It could be used with a pieced-together DS system where you are adding a scavenging system, tank and pan.

[Sgt.Gator]

From PRI 2017: I had a great talk with the owner of the Can Jam Motorsports STI, Nick Hoo, that just won the Speedring 2017 Time Attack overall fastest time and earned them a $20K check from Motovicity. It was very interesting. First a few shots of his car:

https://km29tg.by3302.livefilestore.com/y4mAYbp1SG-MJ4POozhCW4Uife5L6Hl_c0_v0aVrBuhsQodLQMX-DjndR21RxBT5GEHP7yI6wyWTC0hOYCuzGDpok_y78_zBmhvNsi bZIe_VdOjGtY2PjrNkXf8k5xDVQhlFHEUsbyziX-O-vEF9oxTn7R9-TanZPp8uwV9onk_cUjJm4G5IqQ5oX2Nx9pyVLoMAC6IfjfF9O8 I3-gRU4dNHQ?width=768&height=1024&cropmode=none

I think the splitter needs to be a little larger....

https://hw29tg.by3302.livefilestore.com/y4mWHqo2kGzbb5mHPbwn8CvEmdRUV5GTTdYRNrcEow6rrAH152 eCQqqMLXUkAWVyYFMBKJ-zqpYIJajgCDPrJcPWUyifefFObhIgVdGR9itEWXuIWnOypGUsp KBeDMof-457sQj3cUqsJzJ0AzFjcRyuvkkp1w-kQ33Dt15xFVWSWJ6pUsjEijK9iYVKP5i0ccWRTI7_hXM7W8Y_o gTgV_c_w?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none

Murray Constant Tension Turbo Clamps!...Yes, I sell them, how many do you want? Shameless Vendor Plug.

https://hg29tg.by3302.livefilestore.com/y4m5T-hN-EGlTiPyHoU4kxP2bHhcwZdueonjXlCO0lirTFZ9_Vwrw8u-lWxTKL4MgSiotfuVOsJ3upT6irBtVsqhFJ8Vb-mD2aMukRtHpwlvUXcB-xhrjCWm6SMpLMYpztVlK_XFIZqxSe9py4ieV8fvlU8BywbGqMc xwlMYxPYLeo_Viy8XxZeEGcDwX7-rBTAktYYvafyp8DG3rujXZqltQ?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none


OK, so where's the Dry Sump? There has to be one in here somewhere.....

https://hm29tg.by3302.livefilestore.com/y4mBkZ627PW5dqVaVxRpCGmOmyAtm2klgW-pngXfZPbGqeWYjbEIAkggBXxt8Tq8LcKUK9dF2mhy6ldtArdL6 6Xkf35kayjUwqVKMeOlWzVZcTURhfYAkrw6h054CdeJwpQfdY1 Dh7oCsBQP-RAhOlPnS3u7flIp3zThhDTWn5Odwh4naTYgTxZo4IRwRxxU4dx dboUlmlzC0F1JXf7qQzsAA?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none

The answer is there isn't one <now>.

Like all Subaru racers that get into High G's Nick suffered several oil related engine failures from the heads filling with oil. That led him to use what most of us consider the cream of the crop DS, the Dailey. However, they still weren't getting the longevity they expected. They noticed a slight drop in oil pressure under hard accelration. 600HP and AWD will get you some of that. More acceleration than a 818R could probably stick to the ground. They tried upping the scavenge lines size to AN16, that didn't work.

With the previous wet sump pans, they had never experienced this issue. The problem with the wet sumps was they were filling the heads with oil. So for 2017, they switched back to a Killer Bee pan and pickup. But the key was they machined ports in the bottom of each head and ran AN lines to a Tilton electric pump mounted low out the picture above, down by the frame, then lines from the pump back into ports installed in the OEM plastic oil fill pipe. That empties the heads of oil and drops it right back into the KB pan.

Sorry, I didn't get better pics of that setup but I'm sure you can imagine it.

Very cool!

However, for 2018 they are scrapping the Tilton pump system and going with an Aviaid DS setup. Despite his success with the above system he still wants a true dry sump. I told him my experiences with that setup and how to rearrange the pump blades for an easier install. This car not only does Time Attack but up to two hour enduros and they want a DS sytem with a large tank again.


And because this is an FF forum, the Joey Logano Daytona Coupe featured in the Gas Monkeys episode a few weeks ago:

https://im2ahg.by3302.livefilestore.com/y4mdPPPA7Wgq5JO3k-gHHTXaetsMNma_gh8UdnIdR9ik40VrzwDNps1lmmuCreIPf8ra 7xyZ07-XLUk8FYmDlLT4E6AhNy1Njrj77JlH3MtNadG94mYvmH73WGSq1 177rDSgrBwjfjTiBQrNwZ4BepSWd0dcm5I84Gu7Z9gmr-39kg32CcVBlliv8CziPqiATdlK3q3y3defDr5QdACvMgf1g?wi dth=768&height=1024&cropmode=none..https://h22ahg.by3302.livefilestore.com/y4mT-TJs3-jbKZR-vmRz3K2cqg85274zEPPY0Vc2ualP7M1NzaBmt7u3LyY9gQeW7T LmB82r_DfftT9_Ib7hDzfAlKyuc0RA60mEy-TRoq6a6bgZgLNInCCLn8PQDoibeJiGQmOXC9rgHu9wipBzxjKC ZJvG-QFjai521PjU8k6V-Lc825_rApu5hkmn1msa6z86DrRFaZfJTwRkEtnk_zKAA?width =1024&height=768&cropmode=none..https://hw2ahg.by3302.livefilestore.com/y4mXdixhRJ9IbnAlZ0Je8axAU09V9pC5gT3zsT8ACHmxOGFSzW Dc9h2Fn0wrO7aOEneSQxRRXLpPNjsiU9MyOtGYXaiRBVbpw6ti HRkltHMt585QgrlpUmL8n4qusYmE8yeARUjwSxcLxsaS3uK3WI juYldVLhoih7KCaTgUYYci7TK-Zcbrdi53mDIPwSG4dgilQfSraBKyzWl_O63fBYbWw?width=10 24&height=768&cropmode=none

And if anybody is thinking about a sequential dog box I talked with every vendor about using one in a 818 and STI. Just be ready to spend $15 to $25K. And another $4K for a Geartronics GCU if you want that <you do!>

[Wayne Presley]

Gator, I'm surprised I didn't see you there. I was there 9-5 Thur and Fri.

[Sgt.Gator]

Gator, I'm surprised I didn't see you there. I was there 9-5 Thur and Fri.

Hi Wayne, sorry I missed seeing you. I was at the show Friday - Saturday. I didn't hit the Ford Performance Booth until late Saturday afternoon. I spent a lot of time in classes this year. Great show, I just wish it wasn't a couple of days after the 25 hour at Thunderhill. I don't think I'm capable of doing both in the same year and I'd rather be helping Retro Racing at the 25 next year.

[Scargo]

What did he think the advantage would be of the Aviaid system over the Dailey? I know they are laid out differently but why does he think it will work better?

[Sgt.Gator]

What did he think the advantage would be of the Aviaid system over the Dailey? I know they are laid out differently but why does he think it will work better?

He mentioned two things. A different pan design that keeps the oil going to the scavenge lines under acceleration. I told him I've used the ARE and Cosworth pans, and just got the Aviaid billet pan. My non-engineer's eye and experience tells me the Aviaid pan is the best. Of course it's dang expensive. Or he may make his own design DS pan.

He also never liked the way the Dailey drives the pump. It runs off the timing belt, which I never noticed before, but you can clearly see in the image below from the Dailey website, and two images I found on NASIOC. One of the timing belt pulleys has an extension that is driving the DS pump belt. I always thought it ran off a mandrel on the crank pulley, but now I see it doesn't. He didn't like adding the stress of the DS pump to the timing belt. He'd rather run a pump off a mandrel on the crank pulley like the Cosworth, or off the crank pulley A/C ring like most of the Subaru systems you find, ARE, Aviaid, Element Tuning.

77645

https://hg0bpw.by3302.livefilestore.com/y4mjlKhvvAbTbgRDd3qXtD3WSIgwsviCld_oHjBpTjIK5VZYmc T0g8viStyPYFvyMl1uj4QcvTQwT5PUNXce88-3V6ZUnQiKN9hK2yp4ku873fOoIMviMRvH5zGspfVQ4uC082QE0 QQlCb5Zk1Po0ohdPhCYprfCq-R__kN7M_a4mkiG6sephDrH6IhjUUyNQxAJCByMJM36JE6Q1OGJ kRyMw?width=587&height=537&cropmode=none..https://kw0bpw.by3302.livefilestore.com/y4maqOl7baDf9cYMWOEQcB-Qn1yfmWw0TV0IhI_frbt7jVvSDzuc0yqTFjEi1K0j2ejWBWLaC tkBahNDUy0nmd1_ylPT5hWj72YDtJUsXFk1PhD2DdcOvir-6tXMMtaxFlmgNLRQqrRAEXNVX6Ia49nzrFXELStHLcNPszo4Zk 1KNZvEXo0qbzEIvUJeoxhh3uAkBlzN7dQhk0tfdwUVfM5wQ?wi dth=1065&height=540&cropmode=none

[Bob_n_Cincy]

He mentioned two things. A different pan design that keeps the oil going to the scavenge lines under acceleration. I told him I've used the ARE and Cosworth pans, and just got the Aviaid billet pan. My non-engineer's eye and experience tells me the Aviaid pan is the best. Of course it's dang expensive. Or he may make his own design DS pan.


I'm running the Aviad system.
On the Aviaid pan the ports are pretty close to the engine mounts. I did some special pipes to rather than hoses.
Bob

77648 77649 77650 77651

77652 77653 77654 77655

Gator,
Michael and I were at PRI Thursday and Friday. Ran into Wayne and Eric.
We saw Dave but he was busy talking to someone. No surprise there.
Bob

[Scargo]

As to the Can Jam Motorsports STI, it's impressive and one of the few cars I've seen where they pull fresh air into the turbo from outside the engine compartment. Very smart and probably worth some HP.

I still like the Dailey setup. Positive drive that won't slip and the tension on the bolt from the DS pump belt is somewhat offset by the tension from the timing belt. Perhaps a better bolt, wider base, etc. is in order for the pulley/bolt mounting.
I think the timing belt is good for the stresses put on it if you run the good blue racing belt.

I want to do an undermount turbo so my exhaust would be fairly custom anyway unless the KB header can be adapted. Thus I am not feeling challenged by the pulley/snout down there. If oil moving away from the suction ports in the pan is a problem with the Dailey pan, under hard acceleration, I think it can be dealt with through some mods.
I may or may not want a reversed intake on my 818, like on my STi's, but the scavenging pumps up top, competing for space with the alternator and a confluence of hoses up there and the pump heat right next to the intake manifold is not appealing to me.
I re-read almost all of the travails you and Plavin went through with your DS systems. I still want to go that route.
I guess you are still on the 10mm pump you went back to? Everything is OK with the underdrive pulley?
Thanks for the update from PRI.

[Scargo]

That's a great idea! I also like how you tied down the tubes so they can't vibrate too much and fatigue. Good luck!
PS: I did similar with my breather on top of the engine. Where head vents Tee together I made a hard tube for the connection.
https://2008subarutrack.shutterfly.com/279https://2008subarutrack.shutterfly.com/27977659

[Sgt.Gator]

Bob and Michael. ya'll do great work!

Scargo, On my STI I'm running a full sized Fluidamper crank pulley and a Cosworth rebuilt OEM oil pump. To make the Aviad pump spin slower I'm using a larger DS pulley. 5.5" I think. I'll be doing the same setup minus the Cosworth oil pump on the 818R soon.

Can Jam had his tank mounted in the rear seat area, you would think it should have fed the Dailey pump fine even going against the force of the acceleration. In an 818 you could mount the DS tank even with or slightly ahead of the Dailey return in fitting and should not have that problem.

[Scargo]

Bob and Michael. ya'll do great work!

... Cosworth rebuilt OEM oil pump. To make the Aviad pump spin slower I'm using a larger DS pulley. 5.5" I think. I'll be doing the same setup minus the Cosworth oil pump on the 818R soon.

Can Jam had his tank mounted in the rear seat area, you would think it should have fed the Dailey pump fine even going against the force of the acceleration. In an 818 you could mount the DS tank even with or slightly ahead of the Dailey return in fitting and should not have that problem.
And it's a 10mm pump? Using its internal pressure relief valve? I know some DS's offer/have an adjustable relief valve on the pump assembly. I think I mentioned that I thoroughly port my pumps. I'd say that there's a significant restriction and potential turbulence area where the oil leaves the pump's gear chamber. At about 8 o'clock in the picture.
https://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f342/kmier450/2012-03-11185010.jpg
I have lots of small burrs I use in that area. I am well equipped as I have Foredom and Dremel tools since I do my own head porting. If you or anyone else is interested I have documented a lot of the oil system mods I do on an EJ 25* on NASIOC where I am Scargod.
Here's a few:
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45026966&postcount=139
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=45456748#post45456748

[Sgt.Gator]

Scargo nice write ups!

I used an OEM 10mm on th LGT wagon that is in most of the testing in this thread earlier.

On the newer to me STI my short block builder said to use the Cosworth 12mm. It was a highly modified built block.
Melted now due to a cracked burp tank neck....but the oiling system worked great. :(

http://www.rallispec.com/eng_opu_cossub_t.html

[Scargo]

... If I were to disconnect the AN fitting/hose that returns to the tank, could I keep the separator tank full and allow the engine to pull the oil from the separator tank and the scavenge pump to push the oil through all the hoses and coolers, thereby purging all the old oil and replacing it with new? I haven't been able to find out how fast the oil is pumping because if it is too fast, this would be a really bad idea. It may be a really bad idea anyway, but I think the concept works. This was not one of those things I was just going to "give it a go". Any thoughts, data, or other ideas would be welcome. If this is the dumbest idea you've ever heard, be kind, I am learning. :rolleyes: Thanks
Looking at flow rates for a 10mm pump @ 600 RPM I calculate that at 1000 RPM (race car idle speed?) you would pump a quart every 7.5 seconds. That's no more than half the GPM than a home water system is capable of doing! At 1/2" ID it might come out in a pretty good stream though.
You might have one quart in the hoses. I calculated my volumes once for -10 hoses that went to a large oil cooler, filter block and back. Around ten feet of hose, as I recall AIR... Was right at one 1/2 quart for hoses. I figure 1.5 for the whole external system which makes sense for my wet sump system volume of 8.5 quarts with KB pan and Accusump.

[biknman]

I see the Daily kit out there anybody consider the Roger Clark Motorsports RCM kit if you catch it when the dollar is strong against the pound it can be a sub $3k kit. I’ve been on some UK Suby Racing forums both for TT Hillimb and Rally and those running the kits have had great success. Ref:

http://www.rallispec.com/eng_opu_rcm2668.html

77848

http://rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/uploads/products/files/5c011d7df1.pdf

77850

[Scargo]

I've seen that many times and I priced it once and though it should have been cheaper in the US relative to RCM's price, but it wasn't at all. I don't think they will play that game.
I don't see anything magical about their pan. Water pump is standard Subaru part I've been using.
I DO like the undermount design. I have to ask, "where is the pressure regulator"? It is not mentioned. The oil pump cover plate is no big deal. A stock pump can be modified.
I know you are a very capable person. Why can't other pumps be made to sit next to an ARE pan?
I don't have a machine shop anymore and am not good at CAD. Could hire it done. Do have TIG. Think I could piece together something as good as anyone's, but I still like Dailey's system...

[biknman]

Yeah diminishing returns considered seems like a pretty well tested and thought out kit. I like the under mount for low GC and the reduction of hoses the RCM ZEN and Daily kits support. And it goes along with my thoery of K.I.S.S. And keeping it simplistic.

BTW they also sale the oil cover f/uw pump oil feed or filter feed: http://rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/store/product/595-rcm-dry-sump-oil-pump-cover-cover-feed. Along with some other bits and prices for doing ones own dry sump config.

[biknman]

FYI here some links from users of the RCM kits and others for reference I’ve been following for quit some time, seems like the folks across the pond have a lot more history with dry sump scoobys for Motorsports to draw from:

https://www.scoobynet.com/general-technical-10/1045706-dry-sump-longevity.html

https://www.scoobynet.com/members-gallery-5/1035597-new-rcm-dry-sump-kit-fitted.html

http://bbs.22b.com/forums/showthread.php?30742-EJ20-Dry-Sump-systems

[Sgt.Gator]

The RCM is an excellent system. I see it runs off the timing belt too, so it should fit ok, other than a custom exhaust header, which you have to include in the overall package price.

[Sgt.Gator]

I have to ask, "where is the pressure regulator"? It is not mentioned.

It's in the PDF: Preload screw on the side of the pump.

[Zach34]

I've seen that many times and I priced it once and though it should have been cheaper in the US relative to RCM's price, but it wasn't at all. I don't think they will play that game.
I don't see anything magical about their pan. Water pump is standard Subaru part I've been using.
I DO like the undermount design. I have to ask, "where is the pressure regulator"? It is not mentioned. The oil pump cover plate is no big deal. A stock pump can be modified.
I know you are a very capable person. Why can't other pumps be made to sit next to an ARE pan?
I don't have a machine shop anymore and am not good at CAD. Could hire it done. Do have TIG. Think I could piece together something as good as anyone's, but I still like Dailey's system...

I've been dabbling in CNC with a 3-axis mill. I've become relatively comfortable with CAD/CAM. I'm confident I can machine things like that RCM front cover and oil pan. I intend to do my own DS system. The Cosworth, Dailey, RCM, and ARE systems all have their plusses and minuses. I think I can combine them. My problem is mostly time. I hope to start work on the major parts in January. The only thing I can't make are the pumps, so I will have to adapt someone else's bare pumps to my design.

[Sgt.Gator]

Zach if you make a Cosworth/Aviaid style pan I have a suggestion or two... I worked on a design but scrapped the project because I don't have a CNC machine and the cost to produce outsourced vs the size of the market just wasn't economically feasible. But here's a couple of thoughts for you:

The Cosworth pan uses an O-Ring instead of Three Bond or Permatex to seal it to the underside of the block. Talk about easy on and off! If you've dealt with prying a factory pan or a KillerBee pan off the bottom of a motor you know how they can be glued on there like they are welded on...and how easy it is to ruin the pan lip or bottom of the block if you stick a pry tool in there. With an O-Ring the pans comes off so easy. The problem is sourcing an O-Ring to make that work. Cosworth doesn't sell the replacment parts, at least not where I can find them. If you can figure out a way to use an O-Ring that would be a big advantage. The Cosworth has a very shallow groove for the O-Ring to sit in while you bolt it up.

Also on the ARE the front scavenge fitting is too close to the fitting where the DS tank returns to feed up thru the pan into the OEM oil pump. It makes it almost impossible to get an AN wrench on either hose. Leave enough room between them for a -12AN fitting + the AN wrench to turn it.

And finally leave room between the scavenge fittings and the motor mounts. On a STI it's very hard to get a scavenge line on the rear of the three available scavenge fitting ports. It seems like these pans are designed without taking the AN lines into account for being wrenched on there too.

[DanielsDM]

Zack,
Check out Nutter Racing oil pumps, reasonable prices and looks like a quality product. I was going to use one of theirs on my system, but I came across a good deal on a used Johnsons pump so I went that way instead.

I personally don't like the low pump mount setup on an 818. Just not enough airflow under the motor in a mid engine layout with a full bottom+diffuser. Just my $.02
I designed (and machined) my own pan so the fittings are at the front of the motor for better accessibility and keep the hoses away from the exhaust.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?22263-DanielsDM-818R&p=288518&viewfull=1#post288518

[Scargo]

Just reflecting on what Sgt. Gator mentioned from PRI 2017 and Nick Hooshow concerns about oil leaving the pickup points during acceleration. Daniel your pan looks like it could be prone to that.
Please explain what it is about the heat under the engine that bothers you. Air could easily be directed in there if needed with NACA ducts and the pumps wrapped or shielded. Custom exhaust work might be well worth it.

I really like the idea of an o-ring on the pan. Is Cosworth's all on the inside of the bolts? I believe McMaster-Carr sells o-ring stock for DIY lengths. Probably could be joined in a fashion like is done on headcovers with a dollop of silicone sealant in the splice spot.
Lastly, it seems many, or some, get by with just two scavenge pumps going to two scavenging spots on the pan. Seems if you have a front to back trough you could do just one port for the front and one at the rear. You'd then have acceleration and deceleration covered.

[DodgyTim]

https://www.ludowiciseals.com.au/o-ring-kits/splicing-kits

It's quite common in industry to make up custom length o-rings using bulk length o- ring material and joining using cyanocrylate glue

Cheers

[Scargo]

https://www.ludowiciseals.com.au/o-ring-kits/splicing-kits

It's quite common in industry to make up custom length o-rings using bulk length o- ring material and joining using cyanocrylate glue
Cheers
I've done that before myself, but didn't want to stick my neck out and recommend it. CA is sensitive to some things like moisture and chemicals (though there are many formulations). Viton is better and I'm not sure about glueing it together.
Thanks!

[DanielsDM]

Scargo,
The acceleration issue is something to consider. Since I read Gator's post I have given it more thought, may end up adding a pickup at the rear of the pan.
Regarding heat, I'm only ducting as much air as needed through the engine compartment, it will be hot down there. Also on top it's easier to access.
I considered doing an o-ring seal on the pan like Cosworth, and I still may go that way. It can be a PIA to keep the o-ring in the groove when installing though. Mcmaster sells custom length o-rings that are just cut to length and glued, they work fine for static seals like a pan.

[Zach34]

Zach if you make a Cosworth/Aviaid style pan I have a suggestion or two... I worked on a design but scrapped the project because I don't have a CNC machine and the cost to produce outsourced vs the size of the market just wasn't economically feasible. But here's a couple of thoughts for you:

The Cosworth pan uses an O-Ring instead of Three Bond or Permatex to seal it to the underside of the block. Talk about easy on and off! If you've dealt with prying a factory pan or a KillerBee pan off the bottom of a motor you know how they can be glued on there like they are welded on...and how easy it is to ruin the pan lip or bottom of the block if you stick a pry tool in there. With an O-Ring the pans comes off so easy. The problem is sourcing an O-Ring to make that work. Cosworth doesn't sell the replacment parts, at least not where I can find them. If you can figure out a way to use an O-Ring that would be a big advantage. The Cosworth has a very shallow groove for the O-Ring to sit in while you bolt it up.

Also on the ARE the front scavenge fitting is too close to the fitting where the DS tank returns to feed up thru the pan into the OEM oil pump. It makes it almost impossible to get an AN wrench on either hose. Leave enough room between them for a -12AN fitting + the AN wrench to turn it.

And finally leave room between the scavenge fittings and the motor mounts. On a STI it's very hard to get a scavenge line on the rear of the three available scavenge fitting ports. It seems like these pans are designed without taking the AN lines into account for being wrenched on there too.

Great point on the o-ring. As others have pointed out, it's a somewhat standard practice to cut and glue custom o-rings. I believe there are special adhesives. It's relatively low risk. If it leaked, it would just be a dribble when the engine is shut down. I plan on pulling a vacuum with the DS system.

Thanks for a heads-up on the ARE scavenge port locations. I'll do my best to factor that in on my prototype. It will just be a slow process...

[Zach34]

Zack,
Check out Nutter Racing oil pumps, reasonable prices and looks like a quality product. I was going to use one of theirs on my system, but I came across a good deal on a used Johnsons pump so I went that way instead.

I personally don't like the low pump mount setup on an 818. Just not enough airflow under the motor in a mid engine layout with a full bottom+diffuser. Just my $.02
I designed (and machined) my own pan so the fittings are at the front of the motor for better accessibility and keep the hoses away from the exhaust.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?22263-DanielsDM-818R&p=288518&viewfull=1#post288518

I can't believe I missed your post about your custom pan! That's awesome!

All the DS pans out there seem to be so different. I wonder where the oil falls onto the pan from the most. Hard to come up with my own design.

In the mean-time, here is the first piece. Adapter for the Peterson vacuum regulator.

77963

77964

[Sgt.Gator]

I can't believe I missed your post about your custom pan! That's awesome!

All the DS pans out there seem to be so different. I wonder where the oil falls onto the pan from the most. Hard to come up with my own design.

In the mean-time, here is the first piece. Adapter for the Peterson vacuum regulator.

77963

77964

Very nice. That's the way Cosworth does it too.

[Scargo]

I can't believe I missed your post about your custom pan! That's awesome!

All the DS pans out there seem to be so different. I wonder where the oil falls onto the pan from the most. Hard to come up with my own design....
I am sure someone could analize track data and figure out time spent at certain G values in lateral and longitudinal cornering.
From this data you would compare threshold cornering values to engine pumping speeds and see what kind of flow you have to deal with at certain times. With this analysed, shapes could be evaluated as to whether they can contain oil for the required period of time at high G's and high RPM's. Though it might be costly to manufacture, I wonder if the proper sized bulb shape might best contain oil as it drains down? This might apply to wet as well as dry sump pan designs.
77988

[Zach34]

Well I'm sure the crankshaft is just slinging it all over the crankcase walls, then there's going to be the amount that is always draining from the heads. I think I like the Dailey/ARE designs

Obviously there is some disagreement...

Dailey:
77990

Cosworth:
77991

Aviaid:
77992

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I didn't use a vacuum regulator after someone had problems with seals.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78004&d=1513848026

One note: the vent line from the tank to the engine, the air can travel either direction depending on "blow by" and scavenge vacuum.

[RetroRacing]

WE did the same thing with the vacuum regulator, worked great on one engine, pushed the seals out of two others so we ditched it. I think you need at least 3 scavenge lines to pull enough vacuum at full boost to seal the engine and regulate vacuum in the block. I think we just had an engine with very little blowby and low boost that worked well with the Element system. We now vent to the tank.

We have our system plumbed exactly like you have above, but are changing it now to have the cooler and external filter between the scavenge pump and the DS tank, then another filter at the stock location. I am worried that we were losing too much pressure with that set up. WE are also moving the pressure sensor to the block and away from the external filter mount, regardless of how easy that was to wire.....

[Bob_n_Cincy]

We have our system plumbed exactly like you have above, but are changing it now to have the cooler and external filter between the scavenge pump and the DS tank, then another filter at the stock location. I am worried that we were losing too much pressure with that set up. WE are also moving the pressure sensor to the block and away from the external filter mount, regardless of how easy that was to wire.....

I definitely agree that the pressure and temp sensor would be better in an oil galley plug. Maybe the one near the PCV location which would be further from the pump. I also think having a remote oil pressure relief valve would be better at that location. We are not going big HP, so for 2018 we are going to run what we got now.

I'm not worried about loosing pressure as the big racing filter has much less restriction than the standard filter.
Our liquid/liquid cooler is made for a big block chevy (7.4L) that runs continuously at 6000 RPMs. We have the cooler plumbed into the cold water from the radiator.

Bob

[Zach34]

WE did the same thing with the vacuum regulator, worked great on one engine, pushed the seals out of two others so we ditched it. I think you need at least 3 scavenge lines to pull enough vacuum at full boost to seal the engine and regulate vacuum in the block. I think we just had an engine with very little blowby and low boost that worked well with the Element system. We now vent to the tank.

We have our system plumbed exactly like you have above, but are changing it now to have the cooler and external filter between the scavenge pump and the DS tank, then another filter at the stock location. I am worried that we were losing too much pressure with that set up. WE are also moving the pressure sensor to the block and away from the external filter mount, regardless of how easy that was to wire.....

Thanks for pointing that out. Probably saved me some big headaches. So, just to make sure I understand, your only crankcase vent goes to the atmosphere via the dry sump oil tank? You figure the scavenge pumps pull a vacuum through the vent at part throttle, but the flow reverses in the vent line to relieve crankcase pressure under boost?

[Scargo]

Yeah diminishing returns considered seems like a pretty well tested and thought out kit. I like the under mount for low GC and the reduction of hoses the RCM ZEN and Daily kits support. And it goes along with my thoery of K.I.S.S. And keeping it simplistic.

BTW they also sale the oil cover f/uw pump oil feed or filter feed: http://rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/store/product/595-rcm-dry-sump-oil-pump-cover-cover-feed. Along with some other bits and prices for doing ones own dry sump config.
BTW, you can modify a stock oil pump housing and return oil with this Moroso 23815 Oil Filter Block-Off Plate:
78098

As to pressure buildup, why can't you have a pressure relief valve as well as a vacuum relief valve (and keep a closed system)?

[RetroRacing]

Thanks for pointing that out. Probably saved me some big headaches. So, just to make sure I understand, your only crankcase vent goes to the atmosphere via the dry sump oil tank? You figure the scavenge pumps pull a vacuum through the vent at part throttle, but the flow reverses in the vent line to relieve crankcase pressure under boost?

Yes. vacuum at low rpm is allot, so we felt pretty safe, but once the boost kicked in on long pulls, out went the rear main. We have all of the vent lines teed together and are venting through the oil fill with dash 12 to the oil tank.

[Sgt.Gator]

Retro were you running a larger pulley on the DS pump?

As I've pointed out before, the standard Element tuning size pulley, and the one that usually comes with the Aviaid pump, is smaller than the crank pulley, which means the DS pump is spinning at 130%+ of crank speed. In every pro system I've seen the DS pump ALWAYS runs on a larger pulley than whatever method is driving it, resulting 30 to 50% of crank speed. The Cosworth uses a SMALL drive mandrel and a large DS pump pulley, it drives at about 30% of crank speed.

I had no issues on my LGT with not enough vacuum I think because I used a larger pulley on the DS pump and an underdrive crank pulley that results in about 70% crank speed. That part is all detailed in this thread. My STI is running the Cosworth. I'll setup a guage to measure vacuum/positive crankcase pressure when the engine gets back from rebuild. (Coolant Failure, not Oil). The 818R will have the largest pulley I can fit on the Aviaid pump, 5.5" and either a full size Fluidamper or an undersized OBX crank pulley. Probably the undersized OBX because it's an EJ207 and likes to spin at higher RPM.

It's my contention that overdriving the DS pump at 130% crank speed results in two problems both related to the pump cavitating at high rpm, 1) heat and bubbles in the oil; and 2) lack of suction. The only way to really know is to put a combo vacuum/boost gauge on the crossover pipe and run fully sealed. If you are seeing positive pressure at all then go with the open system to the DS tank as in the drawing above.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Retro were you running a larger pulley on the DS pump?

As I've pointed out before, the standard Element tuning size pulley, and the one that usually comes with the Aviaid pump, is smaller than the crank pulley, which means the DS pump is spinning at 130%+ of crank speed. In every pro system I've seen the DS pump ALWAYS runs on a larger pulley than whatever method is driving it, resulting 30 to 50% of crank speed. The Cosworth uses a SMALL drive mandrel and a large DS pump pulley, it drives at about 30% of crank speed.

I had no issues on my LGT with not enough vacuum I think because I used a larger pulley on the DS pump and an underdrive crank pulley that results in about 70% crank speed. That part is all detailed in this thread. My STI is running the Cosworth. I'll setup a guage to measure vacuum/positive crankcase pressure when the engine gets back from rebuild. (Coolant Failure, not Oil). The 818R will have the largest pulley I can fit on the Aviaid pump, 5.5" and either a full size Fluidamper or an undersized OBX crank pulley. Probably the undersized OBX because it's an EJ207 and likes to spin at higher RPM.

It's my contention that overdriving the DS pump at 130% crank speed results in two problems both related to the pump cavitating at high rpm, 1) heat and bubbles in the oil; and 2) lack of suction. The only way to really know is to put a combo vacuum/boost gauge on the crossover pipe and run fully sealed. If you are seeing positive pressure at all then go with the open system to the DS tank as in the drawing above.

Gator,
I talked to John at Aviaid about pump speed.
Since the pump is scavenge only. (air and oil mix)
There is no problem running the pump fast.
No problem with cavitation.
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

John and I talked about it at PRI. I know he thinks that.
I still contend there is a reason Cosworth designed and manufactured a special crank bolt and drive mandrel so they could use a small drive pulley and a large pulley on the pump. Their's too is scavenge only. Since they also use the OEM A/c location and OEM a/c belt tensioning system with a few other Cosworth spec parts to make it work on the belt being further out, why didn't they just use the OEM a/c belt ring on the oem crank puley? You could argue that they wanted a cogged style belt, not a serpentine belt, and that might be the only reason. I think it's also to drive the scavenge pump at a much lower rpm.
All I know is what works for me. I'll be sure to have vacuum/positive crank case gauges, and eventually data logging, on both the STI and 818R this year. That's the only way to really know what is happening.

[Rob T]

I am running an Aviaid pump with the "standard" pulleys. They look about the same size. No doubt I am getting a lot of air our of the bottom of the motor. I am sending that straight through the Setrab cooler and into the spintric before returning to the tank. Last outing between 45 and 65 F, I did not get the oil above 150. I have a Setrab oil cooler that is ducted to the side scoops and has an intake in each one along with fans pulling air through the cooler. The fans are thermostatically controlled and probably did not come on. I need my car to be able to handle between 40F and 105 ambient if I am going to use it year round. John at Aviaid said the pump can handle 10,000rpm no problem. Gator brings up a good question about the amount of work/energy you put into the oil running faster than necessary. John told me the scavenge pumps flow 16gpm each at 3000rpm pump shaft speed and are capable of 275psi discharge pressure. I, too, use the tank to supply oil to the OEM pump and filter. The there is about 18" of head pressure to the inlet of the pump based on the location of the tank, the level of the tank and the location of the stock oil pump.

[RetroRacing]

I agree with Gator, we need to measure the vacuum at song, once the engine is broken in. I will see if we have some spare ports on our Haltech ECU to get some readings.

[Rob T]

I am back at the track Saturday, if it is not raining. Supposed to be 60F for a high. I disconnected one of the "forced" feeds to the rear mounted cooler. There were two of them, one from each scoop on the side in front of the rear wheels. So now, air from one leg will flow back to the cooler, but not pressurize it, as it can go out the other 3" opening. I am hoping this will raise the oil temp enough. Otherwise, I will disconnect the other "forced" air supply and let the cooler pull air from the engine compartment if needed. This will give me the flexibility of easily hooking up forced air or not.

As a note, I drained the air vent port reservoir from the dry sump tank. I had not done that in a while. I got out about an ounce of milky white liquid, which looked and felt to be mostly water in a little bit of oil, very well mixed. I am guessing the water vapor from the oil and a little bit of oil mist is going this direction. Just to be sure, I checked the oil and all looks good. I will do one more track session (the third) on this oil and then change it. I am hoping for higher temperatures with the oil this weekend. I'll report back.

[Mulry]

Rob, why are you running the cooler before the Spintric? IIRC, Gary Armstrong recommends running straight from scavenge out to the Spintric and then sending the non-air side of the Spintric out to the cooler on the way to the oil tank. Is it just packaging that makes that difficult for you, or is that a design decision for other reasons?

[C.Plavan]

Rob, why are you running the cooler before the Spintric? IIRC, Gary Armstrong recommends running straight from scavenge out to the Spintric and then sending the non-air side of the Spintric out to the cooler on the way to the oil tank. Is it just packaging that makes that difficult for you, or is that a design decision for other reasons?

Because it does not work that way. It bypasses the flow to the coolers and just dumps in the tank if it is before the cooler. Ask me how I know. Gary told me to run it after coolers after I called him out on it.

[Mulry]

Good to know, thanks Chad. I'm guessing that the pressure increase going through the coolers overwhelms the separation back in the Spintric?

[Rob T]

I am an Engineer, so this was fun for me. The spintric has no moving parts so uses the motion of the fluid through the passages for separation. Pressure drop was key. If you go through the spintric first, then to the cooler, the pressure drop of the "spun" (no air) oil going through the -12AN hose to the coolers and back to the tank is enough to change the split between the air side and the liquid side of the spintric. I know that some of the oil was going through the cooler this way, because the cooler got hot, but not enough of it. What was important to me was to know that the Setrab unit could handle air and oil, which it can. So now, 100% goes through the cooler first, then to the spintric and then to the tank. The difference was more than 50F oil temperature(lower). I now have to do less cooling to get the oil to temperature and that is why I disconnected one of the ducts from the scoops on the side and left the other port open to vent into the engine bay. This way, I won't be sucking in engine bay air, but cool air from outside the car, but I won't be forcing it through the coolers either. If the oil gets to 180F, the fans will kick on (they pull air through the cooler and exhaust right at the back of the car). I'll know more after Saturday.

[Sgt.Gator]

Good Info! Now the question becomes: Is the Spintric worth it or is it really required? It's a bit expensive for what you get!
I'll try to go without it for now. If I can't keep the heat down I'll add it later. It's probably cheaper than more AN hose, coolers, ducting, and fans.

[RetroRacing]

I can't wait to get the car back so that I can test some of this stuff. We ran ours for some really hard 30min test sessions and never saw oil temps above 190 the way we had it plumbed. Excited to see what it will do with the new plumbing system (cooler on the scavenge side rather than on the pressure side).

[Rob T]

I left the Spintric in for now. I only wanted to change one thing at a time. I also thought the bit of back pressure the spintric adds might aid in keeping the oil cooler more full. It certainly is directionally correct, if not significant.

[Zach34]

Retro, are you using a Spintric?

[RetroRacing]

Nope. There is a de-aerator in the tank which we think is enough, considering the massive amount of oil held in the tank compared to a stock pan.

[C.Plavan]

Would I use the Spintric again after using it, and seeing what it did? Short answer- Hell no. Never needed them on any other car race car I had. I was just desperate to find a fix when I was having all those oil temp problems and coughed up the cash.

[kb58]

I tend to write epic...

Though an outsider to both Subaru drivetrains and Factory Five products, I've used baffled oil pans, Accusumps, and a dry sump, so would like to contribute to this discussion. My one-off (Midlana.com) uses a Honda K24 mounted mid-engine and is turbocharged. Honda K-series engine suffer similar oil starvation in turns but in a different way from Subarus. The Honda I4 engine is mounted with the timing chain on the right side of the car and in long left turns, the oil sloshes to the right and covers the front sprocket and timing chain. The timing chain unfortunately acts like a conveyor belt, lifting oil up out of the pan and flinging it into the cylinder head. A very different engine but with similar results due to hard cornering.

So there's the Accusump. For those who don't know what it is, think of plumbing a rubber balloon into the oil system. When the car starts, oil pressure inflates the balloon until equilibrium is reached. If at any time oil pressure drops, the balloon pushes oil back into the oil system to maintain pressure - that's pretty much it in a nutshell. I had one but got rid of it, and to explain why, well...

The mechanical shutoff valve should be used for mechanical reasons, better flow, reliability, and lower cost. The problem is that you *will* forget to open it before starting the engine, losing the "pre-oiling" feature. That in itself isn't a fault of the product, it's just something you have to remember before heading out on-track. Likewise, when you come in off-track and shut everything off, if you forget - and you will - to close the valve first, 2-3 qts of oil get pushed back into the system when you kill ignition. That's fairly harmless, but it means when you go to start the car, you again don't get the "pre-oiling" feature, and have 2-3 extra qts of oil flaying around until you open the valve and the Accusump charges. Again, it's not really the product's fault but is, again, something you have to remember to do. There's that, and then there's something someone told me that ate at me until I decided it was a real problem. Disclaimer: This is only a theory of mine which may not be completely true, but I've fully bought into it.

The theory is that there are problems with using an Accusump and assuming it's fixed the oil supply problem. The problems are all related to how oil in a traditional oil pan takes on the consistency of chocolate milk when the engine's running hard due to air getting whipped into it, sometimes a lot of air. So you head out on-track and really start leaning on the engine. As you probably know, the crank doesn't actually touch the bearings, it's floating on a layer of oil, and that's great, until it isn't. The problem is that when on-track and at high rpm, oil viscosity drops way off and the high rpm "stirs" a tremendous amount of air into the oil, sometimes as much as 50%. This means that the "wedge" of oil keeping the crank away from the bearings is no longer 100% oil, but is maybe as low as 50% oil. This effectively cuts the viscosity in half again because the air compresses easily in comparison with the oil, and means the crank is riding dangerously close to the bearings. Unfortunately, the oil pressure gauge is no help because 60 psi oil pressure reads the same as 60 psi air pressure. Additionally, the Accusump can't help because the air/oil emulsion is at the same pressure as the oil in the reserve tank, so the Accusump doesn't push any oil back into the system.

Another situation: You're cornering hard when all the above is going on and oil sloshes to one side of the pan, allowing the oil pump to start sucking in larger bubbles. Because they're bubbles, they're followed closely by more oil, so the air gets compressed along with it. In this situation you're right back to the above situation, where you have 60-psi air bubbles in your 60-psi oil, so again, the Accusump doesn't get involved, the oil pressure gauge continues to read normally, but your steady supply of oil to the bearings is now "hiccupping", further worsening the oil situation.

So during the hard corner, the pump finally sucks in enough air that pressure drops off. If this is the first time it's happened, the Accusump works as designed and pushes fresh oil into the system to prop up pressure. But suppose this is the second, fifth, or tenth time it's happened on-track. When pressure is regained after the corner, the oil pump dutifully recharges the Accusump - with an air/oil froth. Have that happen a few times and now the Accusump now contains a 60-psi oil - and air mixture - ready to be pushed back into the system. Is it better than nothing, yes, but just that.

Related to the above, air takes a long time to separate out from the oil. In a dry sump tank, the returning oil is fed into the tank tangentially such that it swirls around the wall of the tank, imposing high G-forces on the mixture. The force de-aerates the oil far faster than it does sitting still inside an oil pan or Accusump. In the case of the Accusump there's another potential problem, that if and when that air separates out from the oil, where does it go? It stays in the Accusump, pressurized to 60-psi just like the oil, ready to be fed back into the engine the next time there's a need. If the Accusump is oriented with the outlet upward, that big air bubble is going to be the first thing into the oil system. If the tank is oriented with the outlet downward, the air remains trapped within the tank. This is a problem that gets worse over time because as the air continues to "off-gas", it forms a bigger and bigger bubble at the top of the tank. After a while, the "2-3" quart Accusump actually contains maybe 1.5 quart of oil and 1.5 qts of air.

In addition to all the above, there's one more thing which may or may not be a problem, which happens coming out of a turn that required the Accusump to "dump its load" into the engine. In that situation, the OEM oil pump is having to supply full oil pressure to not only the engine, but also the partially-empty Accusump reservoir. Does the OEM pump have the capacity to send oil to both at the same time? Who knows.

I'm afraid that in the case of the oil system, you really do get what you pay for. The harder you plan to run the engine and the more G forces it's going to see, the more a dry sump becomes less optional. As said above, this is a working theory of mine that I've "decided" is true without doing any testing with an Accusump. If someone using an Accusump to fix a known oiling problem finds no bearing issues during a rebuild, well, maybe I've decided too much.

[biknman]

FYI

RCM has a 5 stage drysump kit now : https://rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/s...ystem-ej202225

https://rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/uploads/products/nullx200/b5fcdd77b1.jpg

[Sgt.Gator]

My STI is rebuilt and racing again, The Blue Sake Bomber lives!
I installed a Vacuum gauge to see how much vacuum the DS pump is pulling. This is an Aviaid 2 stage DS pump, 5.5" Jones Racing serp pulley, Fluidamper crank pulley, Cosworth DS Pan, Peterson Vacuum Regulator. These pics are only under no load with no turbo boost blow by, so they aren't representative of what I'll see at the track, but I'm still very pleased with these numbers.

Cold Idle right after startup, 13.5":

https://uitmtq.by.files.1drv.com/y4mbjIeRFgwKpWBAQ5xCZmJ8mp4i2g1CziCSbKEoszEx-Nh-AauZcV02heImQ6zEXj_DSQ6YjpCpPZXCWMNoNR4U8-BcNpdEi7LQ8dIDznX3d2nMe3sKLAdQdMVF6UqdAFtGfOdBJFwp-OmsFMQmFMwZR2yce8nue5Xg8tYAO28DVKxGFLdGMRc1bDiNNvf Nj-5GQosPIE7v249QAVTz_FuBA?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none

Cold, 1,500 RPM, still 13"

https://t4tmtq.by.files.1drv.com/y4mrMhyeKwxF2uY6hyvbCp0toXW34lBjbtj_QD1g2m1FHhJKLd 3JicrZy05De_9koune9-U0nLJIaBjy4lexYgUxmocevO6CsokT1UN-kMHujmTogyVJWz2xRsLgieC23sDeGFOYhmKoFPxLn2VRmL9Dt3 lnbfXkCOSg6OLNRefjnS_bKioyysb_dcccAthlmYM2IJzPj75a ovnc8zjzrLHNg?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none

Warm, 3,500RPM, 13"- Excellent!

https://tytmtq.by.files.1drv.com/y4mw4pfiICnTyPm_4k_3fNYfjs94SoOOfLrMeoRaLtEj3ePXha ezIeQ8ALAuaFb0QliD6HMapFohGLlP_jb6w4R-dUbQ6LL_aphEWkZCzY0TFnUzuULCaAlFEGn3l5uh_PPXnWCurn 8hsuo5DQekEVTmJ_l1zSyeSduV02eEiONqGAs6bK0d0ofaeVkx BAAgSnDyl8oLAyw0WvSzdUdn3QxEw?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none

Warm, 500-700 RPM Idle. The Vacuum drops to 1-2":

https://totmtq.by.files.1drv.com/y4m-r8Po-1x1pCUOLP1IoOFj2ZDwMD3RXzSC4tU38_FSD-Uk8aXQKQKbxnp1z3vDQZ0ySLsicYVEwOd_1A2gKYWXKksRAqzs pEu0ebRViJo1XkA_PkevgRUSf2zxp2UNO2lyH1h6neVLsWmcrZ 0tEZUZd0tYePHHhluq-Ojprf-9rVl1N_m0g8FrwJotSRK8BTmsm0QA948IYVhBkumvhHP3w?wid th=1024&height=768&cropmode=none

And an engine shot as it stands today:

https://w4tmtq.by.files.1drv.com/y4mKgl9Bcbj1FR8mtJWDokLOLoehCa67nMpC984_j-b5sIwCZ2j7n1GQ_n9gNFfjvaWDMPTw8MdWPDgLwybKcENkTdVY OnlCyu0n3Qmbh8zGWjcqG-ysEfnweqHKbEXPsAJas-brNwLNav426gf9xeP4MNg7C7HbQO7piq6MAzxQNzw7NKgX4DH3 xbFsCab8DAYNybFY6yLzVTk334CwD41IA?width=1024&height=768&cropmode=none

I'll video the Vac gauge this weekend while racing so we can see the vac under full blow by race conditions.

[Scargo]

Nice looking setup. I like how you have cool air directed onto the filter. What HP is it making? It looks like a smallish turbo in the stock location.
I'm doing reversed NA intake on my '07 with GTX3576R, larger T04S frame with 4" inlet and 2.5" outlet, Tial 1.03 A/R housing with V-bands. Would be hard to do that DS setup the way I'm configuring it. Guess I could move the PS pump and put small alternator there.
More pics or descriptions of the car? What class do you run?

[Sgt.Gator]

Nice looking setup. I like how you have cool air directed onto the filter. What HP is it making? It looks like a smallish turbo in the stock location.
I'm doing reversed NA intake on my '07 with GTX3576R, larger T04S frame with 4" inlet and 2.5" outlet, Tial 1.03 A/R housing with V-bands. Would be hard to do that DS setup the way I'm configuring it. Guess I could move the PS pump and put small alternator there.
More pics or descriptions of the car? What class do you run?

It's hard to do a reversed intake and do the DS pump on top; I don't think I've seen that done <yet!>

My car is the blue #28, this pic is at the ICSCC race in Spokane last summer:

https://y8t9tq.by.files.1drv.com/y4m94N54ZoOdUcdH6PRPoKuYGXxgjsdYfvj0VByNHzZwn6w5tm EnWZwYbvN4o0e5YjUk0K_FUnluTmRjL6czyxJFXG7g21bDU5j9-cEGdfiP54v9fidaEdvaO7zQp_Uvp0BHaSwFSI7eUlK2TlQTPSn 2UEtxeBIOcCKZ6yJRAp4wWncxQ1zanmdd0xUd_2EghFfI3mH5K u4mgNHojTvxSDsSg?width=1146&height=288&cropmode=none

The cool air duct is obviously a cut up stock inlet. What you can't see is that above and slightly behind the filter I have a small hood vent with a lip to pull air across the filter and out the engine bay. I'll post a pic below.

I originally intended to race this car in the Thunderhill 25 Hour enduro. So I modded it with NASA ST3 / Thunderhill 25 E0 class as the goal and with lots of enduro mods like transmission cooler, power steering cooler, diff cooler ready to go (if needed, so far it's been ok temps), EWG turbo built into the turbo housing (No EWG pipe off the uppipe to crack a weld after 23 hours of non stop racing), Brake Fans, Coolant lines to the Tial EWG. Reality has set in and I realize I will never be a team owner taking this car to the 25 Hour. I'm working on other options to participate in some capacity there.

I run 3 classes all in the ICSCC: ST (10lbs/hp); SPM (unlimited HP); and ME0 (Enduro class, unlimited HP). The turbo is small, the intent being to have lots of power under the curve. In ST3 type HP/Wt classes the goal is to hit MAX HP/TQ for your weight as soon as possible and hold a straight line across the RPM band at that level. Quick spooling smallish turbos work well for that. A high HP peak at high RPM is counterproductive. I have an ATP 3067 EWG turbo.
These are last year's tunes with ported heads. This year with the rebuild I have oem heads which dropped the peak power about 10-20 HP/TQ. Which proves why ported heads are minimally cost effective until you get way up there in power goals.
2017 Ported Heads: 295 HP / 289 TQ; 344 HP/ 357 TQ; and 355 HP/388 TQ.
2018 OEM Heads: 277 HP/ 286 TQ; 323 HP/ 330 TQ; and 345 HP/ 375 TQ.

If I quit doing ST HP/Wt racing I'd probably get an ATP 3076 EWG, It should be almost a straight swap. That would put me in the 400s easily.

https://irt0vq.by.files.1drv.com/y4m68Wml6j8p7P3nWySd2FQ56-fpeB4nGOR7WsY-296GfqQeIsV0fiGN65qb8kF9u6lx8RWUS2ygXAcOCEZZBuR_5A derD_ExJL_wUwBnPWuoDO_14zP66_txgzU7Ax3TOoQaNl4JdTL 4VqoDFmx3EncIrvrp9wduZVVfTCGNJ4u_2TlCNj84FBNEDQZtQ uFJ4qwj8qvaqZoFsJh20wuZWDhw?width=660&height=495&cropmode=none

There's two threads on this car thru 3 owners on NASIOC:
The original build: https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2035408
My ownership: https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2836784

Back to Dry Sumps and Oiling issues...

[Aero STI]

Has anyone had a leak at the oil pickup area on the Aviaid pan? I can't tell if it's leaking at the bolts or the base of the fitting that meets the pan. I've inspected the o-ring and that looks good. Everything is nice an snug.

[RetroRacing]

Yes, bolts.

[Aero STI]

Yes, bolts.

Thanks! Fixed with RTV?

[Hindsight]

2017 Ported Heads: 295 HP / 289 TQ; 344 HP/ 357 TQ; and 355 HP/388 TQ.
2018 OEM Heads: 277 HP/ 286 TQ; 323 HP/ 330 TQ; and 345 HP/ 375 TQ.


Thanks for sharing that - very good info. Who ported the heads? What cams? Same cams in both dyno tests?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Has anyone had a leak at the oil pickup area on the Aviaid pan? I can't tell if it's leaking at the bolts or the base of the fitting that meets the pan. I've inspected the o-ring and that looks good. Everything is nice an snug.
I have a very small amount of oil seeping out between the pan and fitting. Not enough to leave a drip on the ground. See yellow circle in attached picture.
also, I put studs in all pans parameter holes.

Bob

86904

[Sgt.Gator]

Thanks for sharing that - very good info. Who ported the heads? What cams? Same cams in both dyno tests?

BuiltEJ Stage 2.5 heads. STI OEm cams both tests, same tuner, same dyno.

The heads aren't listed on the website, but we came up with them after I called him. Easy to work with. I wanted more than Stage 2, but we both agreed that the +1mm valves were not needed that come with Stage 3, hence the stage 2.5.

And I changed my mind on the next turbo, it will be a Gen 2 ATP 3576 EWG.

[Hindsight]

Cool thanks for the info.

As for the ATP turbos - Is the one that you mention a stock-location turbo? Because I recall they had a stock location 7163 and it performed terribly compared to the main (rotated) version, according to all the dyno charts I saw.

[Sgt.Gator]

Cool thanks for the info.

As for the ATP turbos - Is the one that you mention a stock-location turbo? Because I recall they had a stock location 7163 and it performed terribly compared to the main (rotated) version, according to all the dyno charts I saw.

Stock location. Plug and play almost. I can basically pull my 3067 out and plug a 3576 in.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

My 818 has an Aviaid dry sump system. It has 2 external scavenge pumps and uses the OEM oil pump.

94082

Twice while the car sat without starting the engine for 3+ months, the oil from the tank filled the crankcase. This last time, I believe it was high enough in the block to get past the piston rings and fill the exhaust manifold. When starting, the car smoked badly for 5 to 10 minutes.

Has anyone else seen this with a dry sump system on a flat engine?
Bob

[Mitch Wright]

I don't have experience with drain back on a boxer engine but can see it happening. Bob what I have done on engines I have had with a DS system is remove the belt and spin the pump over with a small electric motor. In my case it was to prime the engine before starting. For the 2 stage scavage system like the Element kit it would work evacuate the crankcase, I don't know if you could get enough oil in a cylinder to hydra lock the engine but something to consider. I would think the height of the oil tank will have an effect on the drain back as well.

[NevaLift2Shift]

My 818 has an Aviaid dry sump system. It has 2 external scavenge pumps and uses the OEM oil pump.

94082

Twice while the car sat without starting the engine for 3+ months, the oil from the tank filled the crankcase. This last time, I believe it was high enough in the block to get past the piston rings and fill the exhaust manifold. When starting, the car smoked badly for 5 to 10 minutes.

Has anyone else seen this with a dry sump system on a flat engine?
Bob

I was just about to post a similar issue. I did a first start two months ago, then let it sit, it's been seeping oil on the floor from what I think is the cam seals. The sump tank is very low now, but I bet the cylinders are filled with oil, too. I think this is just an inherent problem with dry sump systems. After talking with some other people, it seems dry sumps will eventually do this the only option is to put a shut off valve in the feed line (I don't know if I like this idea) or to drain the oil if you know it will be sitting for a bit (Apparently, a lot of race teams do this).

[Scargo]

I don't have a DS system yet... but it seems if you had enough wear in the oil pump then this would be more likely to happen.

[Sgt.Gator]

I've had this problem. I tried attaching a electric drill to the end of the Aviaid pump shaft to scavenge the pan. Mistake, I caused the shaft to go goofy and had to send it back to Aviaid for a rebuild.

Th Cosworth Instructions say: "Note: If the engine will go for an extended period of time without running, it is possible for oil to migrate from the oil tank into the sump. It is necessary to scavenge the engine prior to start up to avoid potential engine damage. This can be done by removing the drive belt and spinning the pump by hand until the sump is dry. Verify that there is no standing oil in the sump by checking the oil tank level."

So now if it's been a long time or the level in the DS tank looks low, I spin it by hand.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I don't know if you could get enough oil in a cylinder to hydra lock the engine but something to consider. I would think the height of the oil tank will have an effect on the drain back as well.

Mitch, The level of the oil in my tank is about at the top of the block. I am very worried about hydra lock. I smashed a rod bearing in my 64 Chevelle sbc by hydra lock.


I was just about to post a similar issue. I did a first start two months ago, then let it sit, it's been seeping oil on the floor from what I think is the cam seals. The sump tank is very low now, but I bet the cylinders are filled with oil, too. I think this is just an inherent problem with dry sump systems. After talking with some other people, it seems dry sumps will eventually do this the only option is to put a shut off valve in the feed line (I don't know if I like this idea) or to drain the oil if you know it will be sitting for a bit (Apparently, a lot of race teams do this).

NevaLift2Shift, Pull the plugs, then crank it over to get the oil out of the cylinders.
I think I will put a shut of valve on the dry sump tank and hang a "remove before flight" tag on it. 94121


I don't have a DS system yet... but it seems if you had enough wear in the oil pump then this would be more likely to happen.

Scargo, I think with enough time, oil will seep through any tolerance gap. That said, my pump is OEM with over 100k on it. Thanks Scargo.



I've had this problem. I tried attaching a electric drill to the end of the Aviaid pump shaft to scavenge the pan. Mistake, I caused the shaft to go goofy and had to send it back to Aviaid for a rebuild.
The Cosworth Instructions say: "Note: If the engine will go for an extended period of time without running, it is possible for oil to migrate from the oil tank into the sump. It is necessary to scavenge the engine prior to start up to avoid potential engine damage. This can be done by removing the drive belt and spinning the pump by hand until the sump is dry. Verify that there is no standing oil in the sump by checking the oil tank level."
So now if it's been a long time or the level in the DS tank looks low, I spin it by hand.


Gator, in the 818, the pulley shaft is to close to attach a drill motor. Thanks for the Cosworth info. It tells me this is a side effect of a dry sump system I was not aware of.


Thanks All
Bob

[Rob T]

All: I took a look at my tank after Bob's post yesterday. My system is similar to his, except that I have a air to oil cooler mounted in the back of the car and a spintric unit before the oil returns to the tank. The line after the scavenge pump goes high and then in the bottom of the oil cooler and then into the bottom of the spintric, effectively creating a "u" in the circuit. Now, I believe that there is a lot of air in that part of the circuit when the car is running, but also no way for the oil to drain or siphon back to the tank. Also, I am using a stock oil filter located at the extreme bottom of engine. Bob: what is the relative height of your remote filter and cooler compared to the motor? Could oil be draining back from two places? The tank and your filter/cooler?

I did run the dip stick into the tank last night and I could not detect a level, so I have no way of knowing how much oil has drained back to the engine. I last ran the car the weekend after labor day. I also know the car has sat for months without running and I have not had the oil problem described (maybe I'm dooming myself by saying that).

I wonder if it has something to do with the critical level in the engine block and the relative position of all the bits in the oiling system that can drain back to the bottom of the block. It seems that if oil were going to drain back, it would happen at some pace less than a couple of months...even starting when the car shuts off at the track. All that said, I don't know what the fitting to the inlet of the pump looks like and what the opportunity for leakage is there.

I'll try to figure out how much oil is left in my tank soon.

[Sgt.Gator]

Rob I think you are confusing the return line from the Aviaid pump with the feed line from the tank to the bottom of the pan into the oem oil pump. Your Spintric and cooler loop are on the pressure line from the Aviad DS pump to the top of the DS tank. It doesn't matter if it is higher or has a U in it, that's not where the drain-back into the engine is occurring.
The drain-back that fills the block is coming from the bottom of the DS tank to the Pan/OEM oil pump inlet, leaks thru the OEM oil pump, and into the block. It's a very slow process, that's why it takes a long time to be an issue.

Bob IMHO putting a manual valve on that line is taking a huge chance of destroying your engine accidentally for a problem that is far less likely to occur. You only have to forget to open it once! A solenoid driven valve might make more sense like Canton sells for their Accusump. But you are still relying on that valve opening 100% of the time when you flip on the ignition.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob IMHO putting a manual valve on that line is taking a huge chance of destroying your engine accidentally for a problem that is far less likely to occur. You only have to forget to open it once! A solenoid driven valve might make more sense like Canton sells for their Accusump. But you are still relying on that valve opening 100% of the time when you flip on the ignition.

Gator, I agree with you on the chance of accidently leaving the oil off.
I don't like the solenoid valve. to much chance it would stick shut.

I need to find a full proof method.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

All: Bob: what is the relative height of your remote filter and cooler compared to the motor? Could oil be draining back from two places? The tank and your filter/cooler?

Hey Rob,
Oil filter is at top of block and oil cooler is bottom of block. See picture.
Bob

94169

[Rob T]

Hi: Here is some "drain back" data from my dry sump. The last time I ran my car was September 7. It has not run since then. Today, I measured the level in the dry sump after sitting 23 days. It was 11.5 inches from the top of the tank. I then ran the car around the neighborhood for 20 minutes. The oil was about 180F and the water temp was about 195 F. I waited a few minutes and measured the oil in the tank. It was 8.0 inches from the top. So....the difference between sitting for 23 days and hot was 3.5 inches. There are some baffles inside the tank, but assuming the tank is between 5.5 and 6.0 inches in diameter, the difference in volume was between 1.4 and 1.7 quarts. This is the oil that had presumably moved to the bottom of hte block. I have never had an issue with starting the car after sitting for a couple of months. The pressure comes up right away and there is no issue with the dry sump. I know that the scavenge capability of the pumps is many times the oil flow to the engine.

I will get a measurement every day until my next track day and see what the rate of flow back into the engine is. More to come....

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi: Here is some "drain back" data from my dry sump. The last time I ran my car was September 7. It has not run since then. Today, I measured the level in the dry sump after sitting 23 days. It was 11.5 inches from the top of the tank. I then ran the car around the neighborhood for 20 minutes. The oil was about 180F and the water temp was about 195 F. I waited a few minutes and measured the oil in the tank. It was 8.0 inches from the top. So....the difference between sitting for 23 days and hot was 3.5 inches. There are some baffles inside the tank, but assuming the tank is between 5.5 and 6.0 inches in diameter, the difference in volume was between 1.4 and 1.7 quarts. This is the oil that had presumably moved to the bottom of hte block. I have never had an issue with starting the car after sitting for a couple of months. The pressure comes up right away and there is no issue with the dry sump. I know that the scavenge capability of the pumps is many times the oil flow to the engine.
I will get a measurement every day until my next track day and see what the rate of flow back into the engine is. More to come....


Rob
Your observation confirm what I was seeing in post #734 above. I think if you let it sit longer, it would continue to transfer oil to the block. Eventually getting to the piston level. Though the ring gaps and the out the exhaust valves.

I think if you visit the car every day, you will have a hard time not starting it.
Bob

[C.Plavan]

I never had issues when I had the car. Heck, my Porsche 911 race car sits longer and never has any issue either.

[Sgt.Gator]

The season finale for the NWMECS Enduro Championship. CRR and Retro Racing came together to take 1st Pace in the 4 Hour Enduro and 2nd Place in the 2 Hour Enduro. It was great racing at Portland International Raceway. Big thanks to our Sponsor, Subaru of Bend. Your continuing support and shop work has made it possible to be competitive in endurance racing with our STI. And thanks also to our tuner, Surgeline.

We would have taken first or second in the 8 hour if a suspension bolt hadn't fallen out.

One of the RR Team drivers was in the car on the last lap of the 4 hour Enduro when things went badly. He'd just gone into the chicane when he lost all power and the car spun out. A turn worker came over and told him the right rear wheel was cocked out at a 30 degree angle.

Towed in on a trailer. We quickly determined the upper suspension bolt tying the coilover to the hub had fallen out. We found a bolt and put it back together with an eyeball camber setting.

But still no go forward. Further checking found the left rear CV axle had sheared off inside the outer CV boot. We called every auto parts store and dealer in the Portland metro area, no one had an STI CV axle. So we welded the broken one back together. That lasted 6-7 laps, which was 5-6 more than we expected. It was too bad, we were doing great in the 8 hour up to that point.

I'm not complaining, I'll take a First and Second anytime!

https://6qh6nw.by.files.1drv.com/y4mUn1w4bHGiKMJO637usT7IZI7s7X4_4HkfS3LWN7xVJjQOL7 jYNXLqLD7iJG-yDZTiEiLeBstLhe43qJfpPyHTNhamrZT6MRguN8tkqeI5nGQz9 UHKFZTZtE4KfwBJeJIqPeMz6v9TtTpGhz_VtN3afKtKCPMjQtf P7nOD9Fd83LV0sUi1Dg597vEim0vwq-_fsSsYUhSCj6newz-gNxLxQ?width=507&height=660&cropmode=none

The good news: The engine ran great. There no issues with oil pressure, oil temp, coolant temp, or tranny temp. And PIR is a 75% of the time WOT track. The Subaru EJ257 showed it can handle 4 hours of being thrashed, and showed no signs it couldn't go another 4 hours. We would have had to add oil though, for sure. Easy in the DS tank in the trunk.

I have a new system for the dry sump. On the head valve covers the two rear ports are tied to the oem balance bar and oem block port. So they are still all oem.

The front ports are teed together, then teed to the back block port that used to be the PCV port. From there the line goes thru a -12An fitting that has a 1/8"npt port. The port has a 1/8th" npt nipple with a vac hose to a Vac/Boost gauge on the dash so I can monitor what is happening for blowby gas pressures. From there it goes thru a Vibrant one way check valve. When the DS pump is pulling vacuum the check valve closes and I get the benefit of block vacuum. When the engine is running full tilt and the DS pump is no longer able to create vacuum, the check valve opens and allows the blow by to vent to the DS tank. The Vibrant valve works really well, it's part of the Vibrant E-Vac system for using the exhaust gas stream to create a vacuum in the engine block, so it's good for high temps. Part #: 11192, Description: One Way Check Valve, Flapper Style, -12AN (Male AN Flare to Male AN Flare)

https://6vh6nw.by.files.1drv.com/y4m-Y17IFGXbx824gxgRQoAnWItkjjmoJiv0M0XsmKtZ_l5MVHGwkW rL3cJvzS_o-y47Uy233ybHUWq4PnnUHge8Zl4WoPmj-ybAooa1fVX1QqkEzLMBj31n0YwsbFxDlSrg4C7o5bjMWff1Iwc kTv2kxU9TDkDbp49wCO_AhyUT_FjUcLFQY4dJpNswQy99Z2Moh lhXV7VyxKc-eJSU1JSHQ?width=661&height=480&cropmode=none


It's been a great season. I have a couple of more track days left at ORP to do some testing on the 818R and the Palatov before the cars go into hibernation.

[Rob T]

Gator: Good to hear you had a successful and safe weekend. Also that your EJ held up well. That's encouraging.

[Rob T]

Hi: Here is the data from my dry sump. I measured the drop from the top of the tank, which is approximately 20 inches tall. I then approximated the diameter of the tank as 6". I used a calibrated dip stick and measured the level of oil in the tank over time, from hot and recently shut off out to 23 days. At shut down, I'd estimate between 5 and 6 quarts in the tank. The tank bottom is at the bottom of the engine. Actually, the drain fitting is accessible through the diffuser plate (nice work Chad).95602

[Rob T]

So in 23 days, about 1.7 quarts drained back from the dry sump tank. Notice that the rate was slowing, as well. I have never had an issue with smoke or any other issues starting the car after extended down time.