Carl's Mk 4 Roadster Build

[carlewms]

I had originally planned to install rectangular lights with two LED bulbs for the tail lights. Since this would have involved body work that would have delayed things a bit, I decided to take this modification before the final paint job (some time in the future).

In this case the supplied template was very useful; The base of the lights on the body is just big enough for the lights so vertical and horizontal alignment is critical.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db20b3127cceec571499df1900000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160501143913427.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

After first hole drilled ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db20b3127cceec57ebe71eb000000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160501143923698.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

With the upper light ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db20b3127cceec573f791e4400000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160501143917470.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db20b3127cceec57583c5eaa00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160501143917644.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

With both lights ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db20b3127cceec56bc987e3000000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160501143921296.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

In order to be able to install the 3 pin WeatherPacks on each light on the bench and still feed them through the body, additional material was removed from the horizontal edges of the hole.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db20b3127cceec566adaff2900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160501152056259.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Carl

[carlewms]

1. Under Trunk Storage: After installing the body I found I could not open the bifold lid I fabricated to cover this storage area. I pulled the cover off (meaning drill out a bunch of rivets), modified an existing part of the door and fabricated new covers for the rest. I will do the final install when I have the body back off;

2. Side Louver Cut Outs: They are done ... but not after a little angst in making the largest cuts on the body so far. I will post up more details later but here are the results:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db28b3127cceec466898bbff00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160509103952376.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db28b3127cceec47fece1a9e00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160509103955719.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db28b3127cceec46bad1bbdf00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160509103959489.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

3. Side Louvers: I purchased the Finish Line version which is already assembled and much stouter than the FFR version. I fabricated new brackets and validated the installation with Perforated Base Studs on to the body; and,

4. Rear Lights: The round lights have been modified to now have LED's and individual weather pack connectors. Since I gave away two of them thinking I was going to have rectangular lights ... I ordered two more from FFR.

Carl

[carlewms]

I have been wanting to get the body back off the car now that I have the first fitting done and need to do some trimming of some of the panels and install the bulb seal and weather stripping ... but 15 days of straight rain have put a damper on that idea.

So I continued where I could ...

Tail Lights: I received the additional tail lights from FFR and wired them up. I have ended up with the following plan for the dual intensity on the two lights (per side). Dual intensity meaning high = Full and low = 1/2 "elements" of the LEDs.

Brake Lights: Upper Light High Intensity
Turn Signals: Lower Light High Intensity
Parking/Running Lights: Both Lights Low Intensity
Four Way Flashers: Lower Light High Intensity

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db29b3127cceec45fc1ac35700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160508153606662.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db29b3127cceec459042c33900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160508153606409.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

My thought process was the putting the brake lights higher is better .... Am I correct?

Turn Signal/Four Way Flasher Buzzer: When at TCC in 2014 Karl showed me a buzzer he had installed to let him know his turn signals were still on. While I am using the RT Turn Signal System which has a mechanical (actually VW) system to turn off the lights after completing the turn, I still wanted to have something that told me the signals were still on in addition to the light. Thanks to EdwardB, I was checking out http://watsons-streetworks.com for LED headlights and I found this neat buzzer system to mount on the dash (or under it) that works.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db35b3127cceec48f6894cec00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160514094411773.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db35b3127cceec489f708d8900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160514094411159.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Side Pipe Heat Shields: I initially did not plan on installing these ... the originals did not have them as far as I can tell. But after go carting and several warm ups I decided better have them. There is a fellow (DrummerMike in the FFR forums) that makes a nice set of plain/simple heat shields which could be coated creamily and will "blend in" with the side pipes ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db32b3127cceec4ff5fca6e900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160513101744017.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

So I have plenty to do this weekend ...

Carl

[Jeff Kleiner]

Brake Lights: Upper Light High Intensity
Turn Signals: Lower Light High Intensity
Parking/Running Lights: Both Lights Low Intensity
Four Way Flashers: Lower Light High Intensity



That's how I do them if I don't incorporate a brake light/turn signal logic module. Let us know how the LEDs work out for you visibility wise; I installed a customer provided set on a car I built and was not impressed (in fact when the owner saw them he agreed and I switched them back to incandescent bulbs).

Have a good weekend Carl!

Jeff

[carlewms]

Jeff,

Thanks for the quick feedback ...

After I get everything installed I am going to do a test with the LEDs and the incandescent in full daylight, dusk and night to see how they compare.

When I tested them on the bench (which is not really under operating conditions) they appeared a little brighter ... so we will see.

Carl

[carlewms]

Here is a video of the buzzer/light in action using a 12v battery .. in other words not on the car yet ....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyxj8ZHMpvY

I don't know if I will be able to hear the beeping sound but the light flashing would be pretty visible.

Carl

[DaleG]

Great idea re the turn signal alarm; I'm sure you will be able to hear it. The list just keeps getting longer for the next build.

[CraigS]

Carl, you will miss all the fun of trying to figure out how long you left the T/S on and how many other drivers you may have pissed off.

[Gumball]

Carl,

Good to see your progress - lots of great work there!

[carlewms]

After cleaning the body numerous times I started taking down the mold seams ...

As background the body has been outside through three winters and summers ... so it has had plenty of time to "cure".

After reading Jeff and Chris body works threads (thank you very much) I finally built up the courage to put the grinder/sander to the body ....

Here are the results so far ...

PS just above the headlight looking to the rear:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db10b3127cceec6be8c0463400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160531123818154.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db10b3127cceec6a4bdaa79b00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160531123810190.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Front Cowl looking to the DS:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db10b3127cceec6a9b07261e00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160531123819675.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Front Cowl PS:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db10b3127cceec6ad5dfa7d100000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160531123814040.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Last but not least is an computer enhanced shot to maximize the detail ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6db10b3127cceec6b348a461000000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160531123822780.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Am I on the right track?

[carlewms]

I have almost finished knocking down the mold seams (correction parting lines) ....maybe. By the end of the day I should have the remain PS rear quarter parting done but I am wondering if I am not going deep enough.

Here is a closeup example showing what I think are the voids and pin holes ....

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d831b3127cceec0102829bcd00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160610113244945.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Sure seems (no pun intended) like a lot of em ...

Question: Do i now have to take a Dremel clean these out or will the filler take care of it?

[edwardb]

The issue with the parting lines other than the occasional voids and pin holes (which fill pretty easily) is gel coat. Earlier Mk's as the mold pieces got worn allowed gel coat down into the parting lines, and it needed to be ground out. I don't believe that's been nearly a problem with the Mk4. I had little/none in #7750. Haven't started grinding on the new one yet, but looks about the same as #7750 when I received it. After you've ground them flat, a common test is to shine a bright light from underneath and you can see if there is any gel coat remaining in the parting line. Just based on the pictures, yours look pretty decent. I'm not sure more grinding is required, but put on a light on them and see what you see. Don't grind out unnecessarily, as IMO some do. Hopefully others with more experience than me (j.miller, Jeff K.) can agree/disagree or add more detail.

[Jeff Kleiner]

You're fine. Like I told ya' in another thread or forum don't be afraid to get after it---you aren't going to hurt it any! Fair it out a couple of inches or so from the parting lines (remember, they are not seams).

Jeff

[Carlos C]

Carl:

Just make sure that you've knocked down all the jagged edges and the parted lines are as fairly flat, apply low pressure air in the crevices in order to get rid of any contaminants and ground fiberglass particles, clean areas with acetone, and then get after it with filler. Have fun with filling, sanding, filling, sanding, filling, sanding......

Carlos

[carlewms]

Thanks everyone for the feedback ...

I just went out and tried the light trick on the parting lines and it's pretty cool to see what shows up ... I just did part of the lines and so far have only found a couple of spots on the DS front fender where in meets with the line going across the nose that might be suspect ...meaning there looks like a spot just below the surface.

Again you guys are great .... this new phase (completely new to me) is turning out to be fun ...

Carl

[carlewms]

After getting the holes completed for the lights, etc. the next thing was dealing with the infamous FFR parting lines (i incorrectly used the terms seams in previous posts). in the latest version, the Mk 4, the parting lines for the molds are much less of a problem than on the previous versions.

While I did have some voids and plenty of pin holes, I did not have the gel coated filled versions or any uncured gelcoat or resin in the parting lines ... so it is a little easier to "fix" and you do not have to dig out the seams as much.

Since I do not have an air compressor capable of operating a grinding tool or a DA sander, I used my Festool 6" inch electrical DA sander with 60 grit paper to initially knock down the lines.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d826b3127cceec1a2fd479e800000030O29AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160607184511382.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Using a trick from the guys that have prepared (Kliener, Da Bat and Edward B ... Chris) painted many of these bodies ... i used a light on the underside of the body to check for voids under or inside the fiberglass. I only found a few which I took care of with the Dremel tool.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d833b3127cceec0d94a72bf800000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160612134659891.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I then took a Dremel tool with a small grinding bit and opened up some of the pin holes and voids to make sure that the Rage Gold would flow into them easily .... and to make sure that any loose stuff was out of the voids/holes.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d835b3127cceec08d6aad91100000030O29AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160615015315407.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Next step ... Rage Gold

[carlewms]

This next step as was the first was totally new territory for me ....

Here are the tools and materials used ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d835b3127cceec0841c8189000000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160615015316584.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Not shown: A roll of shop towels and all the sanding tools ...

Before applying the filler material I completely cleaned the parting line area with the Eastwood Pre Painting Preparation and used paper towels to clean it off remembering not to use the same face of the towel more than once to make sure not to spread any contamination.

Rage Gold is a two part filler ... the base material and the blue hardening agent. The first batch I mixed cooked off so fast I could not even use it ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d835b3127cceec083c4fd98100000030O29AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160615015310203.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

You really have to adjust the amount of harder depending on the local conditions ... meaning in this case I had way too much hardening agent. If you try to apply it when is getting too hard ... it will not spread:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d835b3127cceec08bdf818de00000030O29AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160615015311285.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

When I got the mixture right ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d835b3127cceec08c27b58fa00000030O29AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160615015311216.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

After sanding first with the DA sander then blocks ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d835b3127cceec09d628f9df00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160615015306183.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Yesterday's total work ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d835b3127cceec08fc3dd99300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160615015306187.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I obviously still have some spots to work on ... and the parting lines on the rear part of the car to do ...

Carl

[DaleG]

You're braver than I am.

[carlewms]

You're braver than I am.

Dale it is probably more likely I am "stupid" or just ignorant of the dangers. I did not originally plan to do the body work but the money is tight to finish so I must put some more sweat equity into the deal...

Carl

[carlewms]

Over the last three days between working on the driveway and other to do list items I managed to continue my therapy sessions in Olde Goat Garage on the body of the cobra ...

I figure I have put in about 16 hours so far with about 2 hours left on the parting lines. Although messy I sure am having fun in this phase ... I am glad now that the budget kind of forced the situation.

With the heat and humidity getting the right ratio of hardener to Rage Gold has been a bit of a crap shoot ... sometimes i have had too much hardener and it cooks off very quickly; the optimal seems to be much less hardener than the recommended ratio.

The You Tube videos as well as the help from the forum is very helpful ... although I am not using their filler the Eastwood series of videos by Kevin Tetz are very instructional showing the specific techniques he uses to apply and sand a filler. These led to using less filler and less hardener and more shaping of the filler before it cooked off.

Here are some photos of work in progress:

The PS Rear Quarter ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d839b3127cceec31d9209f0700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160619013308914.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Looking down the PS side front fender ... the areas circled in black sharpie need additional attention...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d839b3127cceec3068a17e3a00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160619013309073.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Starting to shape the outside lip of the fuel filler area of the body ... the parting line runs right along the outside edge which requires rebuilding some of the lip...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d839b3127cceec307f1e3e1600000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160619013313788.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

From the top of the fuel filler area ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d839b3127cceec318a245e8200000030O29AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160619013314500.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Almost finished ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d839b3127cceec3097d83ea400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160619020118570.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d839b3127cceec3059a33eb800000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160619020119795.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The tools of the trade ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d839b3127cceec308568bf2d00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160619020119859.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Carl

[carlewms]

I continued the final skim coat on the parting lines ...

The basic process used:

1. Clean the surface with Eastwood's Pre-Paint Prep and shop towels making sure not to reuse the side of the towel. In other words use a clean side of the towel once each time;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d937b3127cceecf4e422e48d00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160716164840748.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

2. Prepare the Rage Gold using minimum hardener because of the heat and humidity (it was kicking in about 2 minutes with the standard ratios);

3. Apply the filler quickly cleaning up (by scraping off the excess) as it was applied (makes removing it a whole lot easier);

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d937b3127cceecf5f2c5c42d00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160716123310201.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

4. After the filler set up sufficiently the big stuff was knocked ... meaning sanding off just the filler with P80 sand paper (do it before it fully sets);

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d937b3127cceecf4f724252a00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160716123300014.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

5. After letting it cure more ... the filler was shaped using P150 sand paper to the point it was fairly matched up to the contours by feel and feathered into the gel coat;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d937b3127cceecf462a4657800000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160716123318294.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

This is where I should have stopped but ...

6. At this point guide coat was sprayed on the area in preparation for sanding with P220 sandpaper;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d937b3127cceecf4ca3a65b200000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160716123245971.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

7. Utilizing the P220 sand paper the filler was sanded removing the P150 marks and further feathering in the filler to the gelcoat. The guide coat revealed the low spots; and,

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d937b3127cceecf5659a84a100000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160716123015801.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

8. The entire process was repeated until all areas were shaped and filled in smooth with the guide coat off the filler and adjacent area.

Lessons Learned:

1. Although the Mirka sand paper is excellent in terms of its sanding properties It's better suited for the DuraBlock sanding shapes; it's not flexible enough and comes off these shapes too easily specially when it the shape or the paper gets a little dusty;

2. After further consultation with the experts on FFCARS.COM )Jeff Kleiner and J Miller) I went a bit to far with the smooth sanding for the application of primer; I should have stopped at P150 grit to better prepare the surface for the primer;

3. I should have used plastic sheet over the car below the body; to keep the cleanup down;

4. Gold Rage does take care of voids and pinholes if properly mixed and applied. Mixing so as to avoid entrapping air in the filler and don't try to apply the filler when it starts to kick;

Here is one of my many mistakes:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d937b3127cceecf5769dc43700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160716123304635.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

and,

5. I really enjoy the body work ... It's almost therapeutic.

[AC Bill]

It's coming along Carl..just take your time. Body work is certainly one of the more challenging aspects of the entire build from what I've seen. Messy too..lol

If you had air conditioning, that would give you a little more time to work with the filler. Would one of those portable units work for you, or is the shop just to big?

[carlewms]

Bill,

I have been trying to talk a certain other member of the household that an ac in the garage would be a great idea ... so far I am not getting very far.

Carl

[Jazzman]

Bill,

I have been trying to talk a certain other member of the household that an ac in the garage would be a great idea ... so far I am not getting very far.
Carl

Here in Arizona, AC in the garage is almost required if you really plan to work in the summer. I highly suggest it! Have the "other member" come out and work on her own projects while you work on yours. Given a few hours, I'll bet the opinion will change!!

[carlewms]

Last Friday I finally got to work on the car again ...

After preparing the dolly to accept the body upside down I got the body ready to be removed when Craig arrived. The modified dolly now supports the body in two places: just aft of the hood opening and just forward of the trunk opening. I then installed carpet remnants on each of the supports and along the centerline.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d639b3127cceecb135f955b400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160819001736269.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

After removing the two front and rear quick jack bolts, Craig helped me get the body off the frame and on to the dolly. I will need to support the front of the body when working on the front to steady the body and keep it from tipping down.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d633b3127cceec8df773a19900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160812175316100.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Starting at the DS fender, initially I only marked of 1/8 th inch to be removed; after feedback from Jeff Kleiner it should have been marked to only leave about 1/8 th of an inch on the lip.

Removing material leaving 1/8th inch looks a lot different ... This is a work in progress.

After trying a small grinding wheel on an angled drill (which was a little difficult to control) I tried my Dremel Multi-Max M30 to cut vice grind the lip into shape. Some 80 grit sandpaper finished it off. After further experimentation I used my Festool DA sander which worked great for the rough grinding and then the Multi-Max to do the final grinding and then sanded with the 80 grit sandpaper.

Here are the results so far ...

PS Front Fender looking to the rear ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d639b3127cceecb107a3d4c700000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160819001644741.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d639b3127cceecb055a3759200000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160819001659004.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

DS Front Fender looking forward ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d639b3127cceecb11ee0152000000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160819001706146.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d639b3127cceecb15140d40f00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160819001705724.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I have 3 of the 4 fenders finished and have the following body work items yet to complete before another fitting on the frame:

1. Finish trimming the last fender;
2. Trim the rear cockpit cowl rollover about 1/8 inch. In the first body fitting the edge would have cut into the carpeting on the interior of the cockpit wall;
3. Trim the front cockpit cowl rollover about 1/8 inch. I could not fit the dash under the rollover between the dash hoop and rollover ... which also means I have to the body back on to make sure the dash is correctly positioned;
4. Expand the front and rear holes for the quick jack bolts to accommodate the Finish Line rubber grommets;
5. Sand the interior fiberglass in areas that could be seen or felt like the wheel wells, trunk and hood surrounds; and,
6. Apply Rage Gold to the remaining trim on the fenders. When someone reaches or looks into the wheel well it will look like aluminum.

Overall, although a bit frustrating because of my rather steep learning curve on this body work stuff, it feels good to be back on the build moving forward after a few weeks of no progress. The heat caused me to take more breaks and stretched out the work considerably; and finally forced me in to the garage to work on other items.

[carlewms]

I have a punch list of items... Some reserved for outside before it gets too hot and others during the heart of the day to be done inside the house or garage. To

I tackled completing the modification to the cover for the lower compartment in the trunk. After mounting the body I found the bifold cover would not open enough to be useful; requiring a redesign. I also was not completely happy with the execution of the first cover (inconsistent gaps, too much overhang on the front).

Sometime last winter I had modified/re-fabricated the covers but now with the body off I could re drill the hinges and install the aluminum. Essentially the redesign was reducing the door width to the opening of the trunk on the DS and fabricating a new fixed panel for the remaining area. The area bounded by the red line is the new door opening in the photo.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d638b3127cceecb22c3eecb700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160819104546677.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

The new bifold door mocked up ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d639b3127cceecb0d935754200000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160819001933994.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

The fixed panel covering the side under the fender on the DS ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d639b3127cceecb1a41a94b700000040O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160819001927290.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

These were all riveted in place and the gaps are better (not perfect) and it opens like it should.

Next the Breeze Cubby installation ...

[carlewms]

As in many modifications on the car I have generally fabricated the modification myself ... but there other times when it makes more sense just to buy a kit from one of the vendors. This is definitely one of those cases.

Breeze Automotive offers a Cockpit Storage Cubby Kit for Mk4 Roadster (Part Number 70752) which comes with everything you need to install the kit at a price that, when taking into consideration the sourcing of several different products, is really more cost effective than making your own IMHO. Here is the link to the kit
http://www.breezeautomotive.com/details.php?prod_id=861
It includes the bulb trim to go on the top of the panel.

Earlier in the build, when I was installing the upper trunk floor, i trimmed the sides of the panel to fit the location in the trunk I wanted. The rivet locations drilled for the panel on the upper trunk floor and the support brackets on the trunk sides. I wanted the storage cubby but I also wanted to keep as much trunk space available for the future soft top.

While the body was still on the frame I took some measurements from the floor to the body to assist in determining how much of the wall top to trim off...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d633b3127cceec8dd606605400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160812175321506.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d633b3127cceec8d7da6a10900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160812175318284.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d633b3127cceec8cc12e819300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160812175315625.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

After applying those measurements to the wall panel I needed to trim off about 5/8th inches of he top. The photo below shows the panel mocked up before trimming

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d639b3127cceecb11590d4fd00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160819001925709.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Before final installation I put some Dynamat Extreme on the inside of the panel and treated the outside the same way I did the other raw panels (grained with sandpaper/ScotchPad and covered with SharkHide).

Here is a shot from the rear of the installed panel ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d639b3127cceecb165e6d4b300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160819001921867.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

After using some seam swear on the open seams (it sealed up the trunk and covered my many sins) here is what the finished trunk looks like (minus any carpeting) ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d639b3127cceecb11e2615e600000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160819002036790.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

With improvements in the weather ... maybe I can get back on the body today.

[carlewms]

I originally planned to use pin switches on the hinges to active the lights for the trunk and engine compartment. Then EdwardB on the Factory Five Forum posted information on Watson's StreetWorks Switches ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BejpROEJ__g

Instead of installing on the trunk hinge (where it could be hit by stuff in the trunk) I will install it inside the trunk lid underneath the cover.

Question: These are designed for automotive use but a question came up the switch closing during acceleration/deceleration. I think it's preventable by carefully mounting. Any ideas?

[carlewms]

I called the folks at Watson's StreetWorks about concerns about the switch operation under heavy acceleration or deceleration or hard bumps ...

1. Their response is they have never received that question before ...
2. They suggested that the best option would be to mount it so that the "open" end of the switch was low as possible but making sure that it operated at the when the trunk lid was fully opened;
3. He said it would take some trial and error to determine that point; and,
4. He said even if it activated momentarily it would not be on that long and since the engine would be running it would not be a drain on the battery (keeping in mind that an LED has very low power requirements).

I will post once I get it mounted on the trunk lit and connected ....

Carl

[carlewms]

Seat Heater Installation: After some study of the instructions and the forums I tackled installation of the CobraHeat waterproof seat heaters in the Big & Tall version of the FFR leather seats.

For some reason this installation intimidated me a little but after it was all over it was pretty straight forward.

Seat Disassembly: These seats don't use hog rings but instead have clips which fit over rods stretched horizontally on the seat frame. There is one for the lower seat cover at the front of the seat and two for the back cover at the bottom of the back.

Seat Bottom Installation

1. Lift the rear end of the bottom seat cushion off the Velcro hold down lower seat cushion;

2. Pull the clip off the front retaining rod;

3. Carefully separate the cover from the foam where it is glued near the end of the cushion. There was almost no glue holding the leather cover to the foam cushion;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d603b3127cceecb8f48f58b800000070O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160822094038703.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

4. Remove the entire seat bottom and slip off the leather cover giving full access to the top of the foam padding;

5. Layout the pad onto the cushion to determine how much length to remove ... I ended up cutting 3 inched of the pad;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d603b3127cceecb8da01d91100000060O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160822094125338.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d603b3127cceecb9a69bf9f900000060O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160822094032083.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

6. Cut the pad and install using supplied tape. The silver backed tape did not sick to the heater mat or foam that well; this may have been caused by having the kit through a winter/summer season or just a QA issue. I supplemented the tape with duct tape;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d603b3127cceecb8870199a700000050O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160822094034234.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

7. Since I was running the wiring near the back of the seat I marked off and cut a trough in the foam for the wiring, put the wiring in the trough and covered with duct tape;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d603b3127cceecb893e1994d00000060O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160822094030528.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d603b3127cceecb9a68bf9e900000080O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160822094025822.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

8. The wiring is routed above the frame rails to the tunnel side of the seat: and,

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d603b3127cceecb908e0f9d500000070O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160822094009990.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

9. The reassembly and reinstall of the seat just reversed the steps with the addition of reapplying some glue at the end of the cushion on the top and bottom.

Next: The Seat Back Installation.

[carlewms]

Installing the heater pad in the seat back was a little easier because the cover is not glued down to the pad.

1. Leaving the seat bottom off, lay the seat on its back;

2. Remove the clips for the cover: The back of the cover is held on to the frame with a long plastic clip and the front with another under the flap with the Velcro. While technically you don't have to remove the back cover clip ... it is a lot easier to get access to the front one if you do. If you can't get your fingers on the clip (I could not because of my fat fingers), use a hook under the long clip to pull off the both ends; it will pop right off;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d605b3127cceeca54c1baab300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160824153629377.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

3. Lifting the cover trial fit the heater pad; I found it was easier to go between the frame members and that 3" needed to be trimmed off the end of the pad;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d603b3127cceecb8111518c800000050O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160822094014610.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

4. Cut the pad and install using 2 pieces of the provided tape;

5. Reinstall the two plastic clips at the bottom of the seat back and smooth out the leather cover; and

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d605b3127cceeca417554b3400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160824153629440.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

6. Route the two wires from the pads to the appropriate side of the seat. They wires are routed above the frame so they will not be pinched when the seats are installed.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d603b3127cceecb908e0f9d500000070O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160822094009990.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

In preparation for installation of the seats I finished painting the adjustable DS and fixed PS seat brackets.

[carlewms]

First ... thanks to all those folks on this and the other forum for clearing the path on how to address the wiring. I wanted to make the harness work with a toggle switch instead of the supplied switch which made for a little more work but keeps the more authentic look.

The wiring harness provided by CobraHeat is excellent but there is not a wiring diagram supplied with the instructions for those of us who want modify or customize the harness to suit our particular application.

Fortunately there is plenty of help on the forums ... so I found this drawing as the harness is supplied by CobraHeat:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d609b3127cceecade9eecccf00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160828102400187.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

One of the challenges with the harness is the switches; if you want a more authentic look these modern rocker switches don't fit the "decor". This leaves at least 2 solutions: 1) Hide the switches; or 2) re wire the harness to use a 3 way toggle switch (On-Off-On). I chose the later path which eliminates the wiring in the boxed area on the lower left hand side of the above drawing. The drawing below represents the modified harness powered via a 3 position Lucas toggle 5 terminal switch (57SA). The switch (which is an Off-On-On) does not have built in LED indicator which eliminates the ground wire connection at the switch.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d609b3127cceecad75ef4db000000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160828102145623.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d609b3127cceecac6f87eca900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160828102146300.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The second challenge, at least for me, was how to route the wiring to the under dash panel switch location and mount the relay to make the relay accessible and the seat removable or at least movable. The forums have several options for this challenge: I decided to mount the relay under the seat on the transmission side of the seat frame. In my case since I tilted the front of both seats up there is room to mount the relay and reach it!

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d609b3127cceecad874c4d6a00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160828102244592.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d609b3127cceecad77184d4600000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160828102245191.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

With this setup I can gain access to the area underneath the seat to replace the relay if need be and I can disconnect the relay and remove the entire seat without disconnecting the pads. I used nylon washers to the relay can swivel as well.

I also did not want connections inside the transmission tunnel. I modified the power wires to 12V to eliminate the connector as shown in the photo. I replaced the connector with 2 heat shrink encased butt connectors (crimped then heated). Wire loom was added enclosing all the wires going to the under dash panel/power and a rubber grommet added to seal the entrance on the tunnel and to protect the wires. Before final installation the harness will get labeled and tagged.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d609b3127cceecad5bea4da200000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160828103448736.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The Molex connector at the bottom was replaced with two permanent butt end connectors.

[carlewms]

Sunday was working on the punch list:

The firewall is out for final (I hope) modification and reassembly.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d608b3127cceecafb3b9949900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160829123344405.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

I made a few modifications to the locations of electrical components on the firewall:

12V Switched/Unswitched Terminal Board: As originally mounted the the support for the dash tube made making changes to the wiring very difficult...with the body off and nearly impossible with the body on the car. It was relocated about 1" to the PS.

Firewall Ground Terminal Board: As mounted the ground wires had to be brought in over the top of the board...functional but just looked messy (not to mention stupid).

I put some pop rivets in the holes remaining to clean it up a little ...

Firewall: I cleaned off all the DE markings on the insulation in preparations of possibly painting it black and I installed rivets in the holes remaking from the original terminal board installation. I mocked up the lower firewall modification which gives the firewall a cleaner look. I also finished two support brackets for the firewall/Mechanical Throttle Linkage (MTL). The firewall as supplied by FFR flexes too much with the MTS (I am sure it never was intended to). While I have a 1/8th inch aluminum plate backing the firewall up I still need something that also is fixed on the square tube. The "dimples" on the one on the left is where I made room for some rivets on attaching the plate to the firewall.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d608b3127cceecae9e4ff4ad00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160829123347721.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Mechanical Throttle Linkage:

Linkage to Throttle Body. The original rod between the throttle body and firewall was steel and my first attempt at threading rod. While the intent was good the execution was poor; the thread was not parallel to the longitudinal access of the rod. I fabricated a new one from aluminum rod and polished it up ready to install once the firewall is mounted.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d608b3127cceecae4156b44300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160829123351874.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Flats in Rod Connecting Bell Cranks: After one unsuccessful attempt where I remove too much material, I think I got the second one right. There are now to flats on the SS Rod for the bell crank set screw.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d608b3127cceecae6e4bf4d100000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160829123345256.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d608b3127cceecaea1b135e400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160829123346358.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Speedometer: Removed to return to Speedhut for conversion to GPS.

Labeling and Documentation: In what seems like a never ending process, tags and wire labels were made and installed as the dash goes back together.

Russ Thompson Turn Signal: Russ delivers a perfect product but over the years I had scratched up the paint in several places ... so they got a new coat of gloss black.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d608b3127cceecaf6b8a15f600000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160829123348759.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[WIS89]

Carl-

Very nice work! I appreciate all the detail on the seat heater installation. I especially appreciate the part about using the Lucas 3 position switch, rather than the supplied seat heater switch. It's what I intend to do, and your post will make my work easier; thank you for that!

I appreciate the posts!

Regards,

Steve

[carlewms]

Steve,

Thanks ... I still have to test it in the car but on the bench it works ...

Carl

[carlewms]

I know another ... but I have searched and not found an answer or more specifically a photo of the installation.

Here is what I have done so far ...

Here is the installation as per instructions ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d720b3127cceed56889c3db000000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160901090128623.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
Here is the mockup with the template for the enclosure and the wiper motor roughly positioned. It looks like I need to have it as far to the PS as possible.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d720b3127cceed5651abfc4300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160901090126934.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

As shown I could plumb the box directly to the PS foot box below. I could plumb the blast gate and vent hose from the front panel of the box to the PS brake vent.

I am thinking that I need the blast gate to regulate how much fresh air comes in to the system ...

Comments welcome please ...

1. Is this a good idea?

Assuming the answer is yes ...

2. Please post photos of a similar installation including the wiper motor?

3. Valves or blast gates were installed in the system?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and photos.

Carl

[AC Bill]

Carl, I don't know if the heater mounting is still the same for the MK4, as it was for the 3.1?
I know that the FFR supplied firewall template for the Vintage heater, back when I built my car, was incorrect. There was quite a bit of discussion regarding that issue at the time. Perhaps it's since been corrected?

From what I see of your plans, they certainly look functional enough. I know the fan draws air in from both ends of the fan housing, so I wonder what the cubic feet per minute, draw is, and if your intake duct will allow for that volume of air movement?

The duct hoses you plan on, when installed, will also make it more crowded in that area, so leave yourself some room to hook up your water hoses, and heater control valve, etc. before mounting the plenum box. That might also be the case with the wiper installation. You need to reach up under the body via the engine compartment, to fasten the wheel-box/pivot's to the body.

The rubber heater hoses need gentle bends, or they can tend to kink. I found I needed more length on the hoses to accomplish that, than I would have preferred. Once the body is on, that area is less visible to the casual observer, so i never worried about it.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m141/12GAGuy/IMG_2979.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/12GAGuy/media/IMG_2979.jpg.html)

You could probably avoid some of that potential for kinking, and tidy it up a bit more, by using solid plastic L or U type connectors..
58057

Some builders ran the heater hoses forward, down along inside the fender area, then back across to the water pump, rather than down along the intake manifold, which is the OEM routing.

[karlos]

Another option to consider: go electronic with a replacement Vintage Air heater control valve. Eliminates the manual valve and pull cable. Mounted mine to a bracket on the passenger side and ran the wires through the same hole in the firewall that was necessary for the blower motor harness. Nice and clean. Can also use the bracket to support the heater hoses.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58068&d=1472784467

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58069&d=1472784467

[carlewms]

Bill and Karlos,

Thank you very much for the detailed feedback ... and photos

I like the idea of the electronic HCV eliminating that pull cable ... I see two different part numbers 461172 or 451171. Summit has one 50507 VUA. Which one did you use?

Among my other challenges is finding a location on the intake manifold for the connection to the heater hose. One is occupied by the gage temperature senso and the other by the remperstur sensor for the EFI. There is only one other spot which is actually in the thermostat housing and I am not sure that works. I have been told that I shouldn't combine the gage and EFI because of differences in the sensors (although they look exactly the same)

Any ideas?



Bill: On the Mk 4 ... The template was off as well especially in the piping area. I also learned, when I made the new template, that the fan base is not even square at the corners.

[karlos]

What I used, and what you see in the photos, is the 50507 VUA from Summit. As you can see from comparing my photo to Summit's, the design of the valve has changed a bit. It's all plastic now but it appears to be a quality piece and I think it's an improvement over the older style. I did have a bit of trouble with the rotary control switch in that it's designed to mount inside the included plastic housing and the housing then mounts under the dash. I wanted the switch to mount to the dashboard itself, which I eventually accomplished as shown by the first photo. However, I had to change out the rotary potentiometer to make that happen. As supplied, the switch is too small to protrude through the dash, the dash cover, and the bezel. Had to replace it with the one on the right in the second photo, which has a long enough bushing and shaft to allow it to work as a dashboard mounted switch. I can provide a part number if you're interested.

I also changed out the fan switch, as the one that comes with the heater includes the provision for the manual pull cable. Vintage air makes a replacement switch only (no cable), part number 11458-VUS, also available at Summit for about $12. If you go this way you'll end up with two switches (one for the fan speed and a separate one for the temperature control) rather than the single combo switch that comes with the heater kit.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58135&d=1472869070


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58136&d=1472869070

[AC Bill]

Carl, while your fiddling with the heater plans..If you remove the screws holding the fan motor, you can clock the motor, 180*, so that all the wires protrude on the bottom of the motor, rather than out the top.

The heater return hose goes on the water pump outlet furthest to the passenger side.
Is there not a threaded plug on the intake manifold, behind the T stat housing? There is a heater hose fitting made for that spot if you do.
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/sdk-c6az-18599-b/overview/

Some fellows use that spot in the T-stat housing for a thermo fan switch, which you don't mention. Where did you locate that?

Nice job Karlos !

[CraigS]

Carl, John Sitton was looking into a t-stat housing w/ a threaded hole. Not sure if he found one but am sure he will be glad to share the source w/ you.

[carlewms]

Thanks all ... great ideas and help!

With respect to locations for the heater hose to the heater ...

58157

The EFI System controls automatic function of the two fans. The sensor for the EFI is the one just behind the t-stat housing on the manifold. The sensor for the gage is on the manifold on the DS.

The only open spot is the one you can see on the t-stat housing. I had also PM'ed Gordon Levy (who built the engine) and his response is the one on the t-stat housing. Does anyone know the type of fittings to use?

Karlos: Thanks for the photos and additional information on the parts to use. As Bill mentioned about having a way to control flow to the defrosters (really to maximize flow to the pax), I may end up using the cable to open the 2" blast gate I am planning on putting before the warm air gets to Richard Oben's defroster plenum.

Like you I want the controls on the dash so please post the part number for the potentiometer.

Bill: I think I will clock the motor by 180 deg to get the wiring on the bottom and closer to the loom I have installed for wiring.

[karlos]

Carl with a 'C',

Potentiometer part number is 53C15K. Manufacturer is Honeywell. Probably available from a variety of sources; I used Arrow Electronics http://www.arrow.com, who sells them for about $8 a piece. Note that the shaft is way longer than necessary, but this is a good thing as you can trim it to exactly fit your application. You'll also need to file a flat for the set screw in the knob to sit on. I didn't get the orientation of the flat quite right the first time, and ended up being glad I ordered two.

Probably worth mentioning that Radio Shack carries 5K potentiometers. Since they're local I tried one of their offerings first but found that the bushing (the threaded part) just wasn't long enough. The Honeywell 53C15K was one of the few I found that works dimensionally.

Your build is looking great. Keep up the good work!

-Karl with a 'K'

[Carlos C]

The only open spot is the one you can see on the t-stat housing. I had also PM'ed Gordon Levy (who built the engine) and his response is the one on the t-stat housing. Does anyone know the type of fittings to use?

Carl:

It appears that FFR has changed switches, by looking at the Coupe and MK4 Assembly manuals. In both manuals, the new thermostatic switch, made by Zirgo (P/N: ZFSWF), is pictured by itself, while an older style is installed in the provision on the thermostat housing.

The problem is that this new switch provided by FFR, uses 3/8"- 18 NPT threads, while the few thermostat housings w/threaded holes I've come across (including the one on my current build), all use 5/8"- 18 SAE threads. Although the thread pitch is basically the same (if you don't take into account the NPT's 1 degree of continuous increase in diameter), the difference between 3/8" NPT (at the beginning of the threads) and 5/8" SAE is ~.030", which is just enough for the switch not to fit in the hole.

I'm personally dealing with a dilemma here, just as you might be (although I'm nowhere near that far along on my build yet), since I may not have another place on the engine to place this switch. So, I have a few options to consider:
1. Find a comparable switch, which will thread into the thermostat housing.
2. Use a fitting to convert from SAE to NPT and install it into the housing, hoping that this won't create an air pocket inside the fitting.
3. Create a location for the switch by cutting one of the by-pass hoses and installing a brass or stainless "t" fitting with two hose and one NPT connections.
4. As a last resort, drill out the hole on the housing and re-thread it with a NPT tap.

I'm curious as to how others have tackled this issue with this particular switch provided by FFR; if they just replaced it with a different switch, or they had a housing with a hole already threaded for a NPT fitting and correct diameter. Hopefully, they'll chime in.

Carlos

[carlewms]

Carlos,

I will have to check on the engine ... I think I ended up with your option 2. I have run the engine and although slow to match up to the EFI sensor temperature it ultimately does...but just in case I am going to check it again and let you know.

My kit was shipped in October 2012 for reference purposes so I am not sure what sensor I have ...

Carl

Carl

[AC Bill]

The sensor for the EFI is the one just behind the t-stat housing on the manifold.

58157 .

That's actually the location the heater hose outlet has been used by some builders, with that hose fitting from Summit, I posted earlier. Move your EFI sensor to the T-stat housing, and put your heater hose on there.

Carlo's,
It certainly wasn't uncommon a few years back, for fellows to have had to drill and tap their T-stat housing for the sensor, or fan switch. Several threads on that on FFCars.com about that. I would be hesitant to use an adapter for the exact reason you suggest, potential air pocket issue.

[carlewms]

Bill,

Thanks for the idea. My only concern would be the impact on the EFI as the engine warmed up. In the current location its sensing the temperature before the t-stat which I think would go up faster until the T-stat opened.

Do you think it matters ... I am probably overly concerned.

I could always try it and see if it has any impact.

I really hope it works cause it makes life easier!

but that may not be an issue ... I just don't know.

[CraigS]

I think the efi sensor should be in the manifold for the most accurate mixture control. I think the fan switch would be the best choice for the t-stat housing since it doesn't need to be accurate until the engine is fully warmed at which point the t-stat is opened.

[AC Bill]

Craig, I gathered that he doesn't have a separate fan switch, from his mention that, "The EFI System controls automatic function of the two fans". Presumably his non-OEM EFI system uses the ECT sensor for that too?

Being that he needs a spot for his heater hose to connect to,I don't think he has any choice. You can't hook the heater hose to that fitting on the T-stat housing, and there is no other spot available from the sound of it.

Now it might be possible to have the EFI sensor located on the same fitting as his heater hose. It would take some playing around with some brass fittings. Whoever owned my donor engine previously actually did similar to that. In Carl's case he would need to use an appropriate hose fitting in the T, instead of what is pictured here. See attachment.
(Which I believe is a temp sending unit for a non OEM gauge, I'm still baffled about that.. it's all gone now)

Brass hose fitting threaded with hose barb,
58286

[carlewms]

Folks,

The EFI temperature sensor provides ECT to the EFI; the EFI has to + leads for each fan relay which are set to two bands for auto control of the fans.

The other intake manifold location only supplies the signal for the gage ... No control functions?

The InfinityBox system provides manual control from a switch on the panel which provides power to one of the fans from the front POWERCELL.

[Boydster]

Perhaps something like this... which puts the ECT / EFI sensor in the heater line (which is always flowing) just like the classic 5.0 with the metal lines. You would need a steady flow heater valve so coolant is always flowing.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/atm-2281/overview/

Note you'd most likely need to install a ground wire...

[carlewms]

Boydster,

Thanks for the idea ... because I want to use the heater fan to blow "cool air" in the warmer months, I am using a HCV that cuts all flow from the heater.

Carl

[carlewms]

Since I was making some changes to the copper tubing on my heater I decided I better do a check on the integrity of the soldering ...

Much to my surprise this occurred ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVw3u3i8iTU

Water was pouring out in the areas where your only supposed to have warm air ...

This heater core was "brand new" out of the box although purchased in 2014 from another forum member ...

I found the source of the "leak" ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d728b3127cceed465b32397a00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160909220732948.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I have been in contact with Vintage Air about a replacement but in the meantime i fixed this one ...

Carl

[carlewms]

The crack in the header of the heater was soldered up ...

Before ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d730b3127cceed427d31f4d900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160911080313092.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

After ... By the way I put a very wet rag over the remaining part of the box and heater core to minimize heat transfer when soldering so close to the plastic and other soldered connections.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d730b3127cceed429d95f40d00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160911080312919.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Then for good measure I through some JB Weld on both of the pipes before putting the heater box back together. I had read that some had made repairs using JB Weld alone so I am hoping this is additional security (I am still planning to get a new one from Vintage Air).

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d730b3127cceed421ccbb48b00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160911080315029.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I re pressurized the system with my "hydro rig" ... no leaks. I then reassembled the box and applied some black gasket maker to seal it up.

[carlewms]

One of my goals was to get a way to recirculate the cockpit air ... especially in the heating mode. I had originally planned a vent duct to take air from the PS foot but on further contemplation ... and meditation ... I took a different path.

Per instructions you would normally completely seal up the firewall area where the two copper tubes go to the heater box ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d730b3127cceed424849b42300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160911082411860.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Since I was going to surround the entire fan unit and the two copper tubes with the new enclosure there was not any point in using the grommets supplied with the heater to seal these two holes .... and it could be used for a return from the cockpit.

This also solved an installation issue ... since the copper tubes now exited the heater core and made a hard right to the DS I could not install them without expanding the hole or doing soldering on the car ... the later I did not want to do.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d730b3127cceed43bc14157800000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160911083305774.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d730b3127cceed43a29315f000000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160911083327171.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The rectangle is 1 1/4 in by 4 3/4 and allows plenty of room for air to be moved out of the cockpit to the heater ...

The only challenge I can see with this method is that there is no control over the recirculation ...

[carlewms]

First I got to raise the major complaint I have with installing this thing: Fan/Motor Housing Design: Two of the six sheet metal screws are virtually impossible to install (the two below the motor). I knew it was going to be difficult when I initially split the heater box from the fan unit; but I had no idea just how difficult. I finally managed to get one of the screws in between the motor and fan housings.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d733b3127cceed4d7e91fdeb00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160912233232756.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Modified 3" Blast Gate: The black plastic gate valve (McMaster-Carr Plastic Blast Gate, Trade Size 3 #38405K91) was modified to fit on the front of the enclosure. The "snout" for a 3" duct was cut down leaving about 1/8th inch and a hole in the enclosure cut to have the blast gate just fit in the hole. Four holes for nuts, bolts and rubber mounts were drilled in the plastic to fix it to the enclosure. Lastly the springs were added to help move the gate to the closed position (these maybe modified once I get the remote cable hooked up. Since a servo heater control valve will be used, the cable from the supplied switch will control the blast gate and thus the amount of fresh air to the heater/fan.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d730b3127cceed42c95875da00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160911070527710.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The enclosure has four sides with the fifth being a separate cover to go over the copper tubes. Phillips head sheet metal screws were used to secure the enclosure and cover. Utilizing 1" rubber seals for the penetrations of the cover; the cover is secured with sheet metal screws.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d733b3127cceed4c55409dfb00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160912233244264.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The copper tube exits the DS and with the 90 deg elbows that come with the kit are pretty much aligned to so that the hoses go down the PS of the valley to the engine connections.

After installing the heater enclosure I ran the 3 in vent duct hose (McMaster-Carr Duct Hose, Very Flexible, for Dust, Polyester, 3" ID #5266K27) from the modified blast gate on the enclosure to the front of the car on the passenger side. I want to minimize curves in the hose to reduce friction losses. A 3" clamp from McMaster-Carr (Worm-Drive Clamps for Soft Hose and Tube, 201 Stainless Steel, 2-5/16" to 3-1/4" Clamp ID Range #5413K62) was used to secure the vent duct to the blast gate (McMaster-Carr Plastic Blast Gate, Trade Size 3 #38405K91). The smooth underside of the clamp prevents damaging the duct. The duct hose is temporarily secured with wire ties and routed down the outside of the hood 3/4 inch square tube to the brake vent.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d733b3127cceed4cc0315c6800000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160912233237493.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d733b3127cceed4c0fa01c0600000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160912233240134.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d733b3127cceed4ce18f1c5e00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160912233237307.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Thanks to some feedback from AC Bill, the fan motor was clocked so the wiring comes out at about the 7:00 o'clock position when looking from the PS. Fed through a 1" rubber grommet (McMaster-Carr Expandable Grommet, Flexible, Fits 1" Diameter Hole, 1-1/4" OD #4946A2), the wiring in the added braided wire loom will be routed to the PS to go through the firewall.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d733b3127cceed4cedb71c6000000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160912233235051.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[740iLn]

Carl, thanks for all of the great posts. I'm local (in Gainesville) and was excited to read about, and now follow your build. - John

[carlewms]

John,

Thanks ... PM if you would like to over any specifics of the build.

Carl

[carlewms]

Hitting the garage at around 5:00 am the installation of the of the fresh air supply for the heater/defroster/cooling system.

The 3" duct starts at the PS brake vent up the 3/4" square tube and horizontally down the hood 3/4" square tube. At the vertical support the duct takes a gentle turn to the the front of the enclosure.

To secure the duct I used:

(4) McMaster-Carr: Cable Tie Mount, Fastener Mount, 2 Way, 0.30" Maximum Tie Width, 7/8" Long, Black #7566K68;
(4) McMaster-Carr: 3/16th inch 1/2" Pop Rivets modified to have a smaller dome width .6" to .45"; and,
(4) Wire Ties, Black the widest that could fit in cable mount (about 3/8th inch).

Here are some photos:

Modifying the 3/16th inch rivets to fit the cavity in the cable tie mount...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d732b3127cceed4e816ac59700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160913114456270.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d732b3127cceed4fab2de58900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160913114455657.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d732b3127cceed4f546aa52900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160913114458668.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The wire tie in the cable tie mount ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d732b3127cceed4e35b0c51700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160913114454121.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The top of the duct was located just below the level of the square tubes with the wire ties tighten to hold but not collapse the duct.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d732b3127cceed4e9bcdc53d00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160913114454931.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d732b3127cceed4e0e8185a300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160913114455396.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[740iLn]

John,

Thanks ... PM if you would like to over any specifics of the build.

Carl

Thank you sir. Will do!

John

[carlewms]

Ok here is the result of the body work so far on the fender edges ... I think I am finished except for rolling over the lip with filler. Am I Right or Wrong?

Some waves were created by me when I took the panoramic photos of the entire fender

Front DS Fender Edge Looking to the Rear

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d701b3127cceed7cfb01358c00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160920130035458.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Front DS Fender Edge Looking Forward

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d701b3127cceed7c8fd4b45300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160920130046700.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Rear PS Fender Edge Looking to the Rear

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d701b3127cceed7df54e158800000040O39AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160920130114732.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D3/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Rear PS Fender Edge Looking Forward

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d701b3127cceed7cffecb45300000040O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160920130049518.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Rear DS Fender Edge Looking to the Rear

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d701b3127cceed7c22b575cc00000050O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160920130107249.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Rear DS Fender Edge Looking Forward

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d701b3127cceed7dbe48d40300000040O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160920130057630.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Feedback Please ... Thanks

[BigUgly]

carlewms,

When I trimmed my wheel well edges, I used an angle grinder with a 1/16th inch wide cutoff wheel and thought that I did a reasonable job, however, after seeing how nice yours are,I am disappointed in mine. Especially after seeing that you used an ax and three hand crosscut saws to do it. :cool::cool::cool:

[Jeff Kleiner]

Yeah! I never thought of using a rusty handsaw! What I can tell from the photos looks good; we could get a better perspective looking from the side with the body right side up. Unlike Mk3s and earlier I don't fill the backside (unless I happen to screw up and make a little bobble creating a wonky radius---not that I'd ever let that happen :rolleyes:).

Jeff

[carlewms]

Thanks Guys,

My assistant was not available to flip the car over for these photos ... so I just decided it was easier flipping the whole world upside down ...

Driver's Side
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d700b3127cceed7ffb24ccf900000040O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160921180603160.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d700b3127cceed7ffa5f0d2a00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160921181205393.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
PS Front Fender
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d700b3127cceed7f6a750d4800000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160921180609319.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
DS Front Fender ... Passenger's Side Showing Extra "Hump" (I know it is a highly technical term) in the green circle on both of the photos. I was pretty sure I did not remove that much material from the front DS area so i will need to "adjust". Am I right?
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d700b3127cceed7f0c998ca700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160921180603228.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
PS Rear Fender
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d700b3127cceed7f8b8d4d5800000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160921182740074.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
DS Rear Fender
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d700b3127cceed7f76ac8caf00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160921182739507.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

As soon as I can get the body flipped right side up, I will check again.

Thanks for getting me to check it because I probably would not have caught that difference readily.

Carl

[M3ichael]

Subscribed. Need to drink V8 juice to right myself onto the correct side.

[j.miller]

I have never filled the backside.......of a wheel lip:p...da Bat

[Jeff Kleiner]

Carl,
Ixnay the humps (I call 'em "hiccups" or "elbows" which are also technical terms). Straight out of the mold there are all kinds of funky wee-wahs (getting technical again ;)) from the front of the wheel opening around to the oil cooler scoop. I always work them over with the DA to eliminate the erratic in and outs so that it winds up making a smooth continuous curve like so:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Mk4%207276/100_2569.jpg

Cheers,
Jeff

[carlewms]

Thanks everyone ...

Jeff: Thanks for the photo ... it helps understand the words for us visual types!

Carl

[carlewms]

carlewms,

When I trimmed my wheel well edges, I used an angle grinder with a 1/16th inch wide cutoff wheel and thought that I did a reasonable job, however, after seeing how nice yours are,I am disappointed in mine. Especially after seeing that you used an ax and three hand crosscut saws to do it. :cool::cool::cool:

I used the axe on the bigger spots and the crosscut saws to make the minor adjustments.:D

[carlewms]

The SpeedHut Speedometer sent for conversion to GPS arrived yesterday so I broke it out today and did a quick bench check to see that it works.

Materials included in the conversion are:

(1) Speedometer ... the FFR one returned converted;
(1) GPS Antenna & Cable # G-SNDR-20
(1) Dash Lighting Pig Tail & Connector ... to connector to inverter; and,
(1) Power Distribution Cable ... to provide power and Gauge Dial Lighting.

To change the set up and change the settings the Gauge Programming Button is used. I previously purchased an extra one so I could permanently install one for the speedometer and the clock.

(1) Gauge Programming Cable # A-BUTTON-01

The unit uses the same digital display sized box as the non GPS version and has eight function screens:

Odometer and Trip ... Total Mileage on top and Trip Mileage on the bottom
Clock ... and Odometer
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d709b3127cceed6df3aa51fa00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160928121451563.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
Elevation ... and Odometer
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d709b3127cceed6cb44531e200000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160928121448841.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
Speed ... and Odometer
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d709b3127cceed6c02ec311000000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160928121449282.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
Direction ... and Odometer
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d709b3127cceed6c260631e800000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160928121452015.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
Peak ... Shows top speed reached since last reset

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d709b3127cceed6c0d63710000000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160928121450980.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
0-60 MPH Time

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d709b3127cceed6d493ed00300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160928121452664.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

1/4 Mile Time
https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d709b3127cceed6ce048b0f500000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160928121453823.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

On the bench inside the house, it took about 40 seconds to acquire the satellites when connected to power. With the power supplied from un-switched power it is supposed to power up within seconds.

[carlewms]

The number of outlets I prepared this diagram showing what I "think" i want to do or try.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d711b3127cceed69fd0d9ce900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160930102505186.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Here are the notes from the drawing since they are a little hard to read ...

Installation Notes

1. Red = 2" ducting.
2. Blue = 3" ducting for Outside Air
3. F = Forward Facing Round Louver
4. D = Down Facing Round Louver
5. 2"BG = 2" Aluminum Blast Gate controlled from DS of cockpit
6. 3"BG = 3" Plastic Blast Gate controlled from Heater Fan Control Knob

Operations Notes

1. Heat: Maximize heating by closing both blast gates.
2. Defrost: Maximize defrost by opening 2"BG and close louvers.
3. Cooling: Maximize cooling by keeping HCV shut during warmest months and opening 3"BG

Any other thoughts ... I could just divert the top DS outlet to the defrost and have only one to the DS.

Thanks,

Carl

[2bking]

Carl, I scrolled back through your build looking for the water diverter valve you are using for the heater and didn't find it in the heater installation so I assume you haven't completed it yet. I have the Coyote and use the required four port diverter valve for the heater. That valve doesn't have very good sealing between the ports and leaks some hot water through the heater core when it is supposed to be closed. Some hot air comes from the vents when the AC and circulation fan is off. Depending on the diverter valve you use, the cooling air you expect through the heater box may not be as expected.

The broken joint you repaired in the heater core was caused by the long copper pipes soldered to the inlet/outlet tubes and will happen again if the ends at the hose connections aren't supported so no movement occurs. Even then, I suspect you will have another leak after some time. Solder joints don't handle vibrations well unless a lot of overlap is in the joints and the copper/brass in the heater core work hardens with vibration induced movements which leads to cracking. I think a piece of heater hose in the long copper tube sections will decouple the stress and prolong the life of the heater core.

[carlewms]

King,

Thanks for the feedback ...

I got information from Vintage Air and someone who installed their servo motor controlled valve that it does fully isolate the heater. The Vintage Air Part is their "Vintage Air Replacement Heater Valve Controls 50507-VUA". If it still leaks when I try it ... I guess I wont have cooling.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d728b3127cceed472b0f980300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160909111735118.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The heater core was brand new and still in the plastic wrap from Vintage Air so I was a bit surprised when it leaked like a sieve.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVw3u3i8iTU

I will implement your idea on the heater hose; right now they are only really supported by the rubber grommets as they go through the side of the enclosure.

[carlewms]

Another modification or should I say add on ...

The fuel tank filter was ready for installation on the PS behind the wheel well by the the filler pipe. Taking inspiration from EdwardB's use of PVC, I did the same making use of some pipe I had around the garage plus some other parts from the local hardware store. After roughing the PVC up and using some filler to make it look more like metal, it was painted with 3 coats of Eastwood's Detail Grey Bare Steel Replication paint. I riveted two wire tie mounts to the outside wall of the trunk and mounted the filter with two wire ties. When I get the activated charcoal (from the pet store) I will install the scotch pad retainers and the activated charcoal.

Charcoal Fuel Vent Filter Materials

(1) 1.5" ID PVC Pipe 5 inches long
(1) 1.5" ID PVC End Cap
(1) 1.5" ID PVC Coupler
(1) 1.5" ID PVC Clean Out Plug
(1) 1.5" ID PVC Plug
(2) Hose Barbs 1/2" x 1/2" NPT
(1) Fish Tank Charcoal Filter
(2) Scotch Pad Filter Media Retention (at each end of the filter)
(1) Primer
(1) Paint, Eastwood's Detail Grey Bare Steel Replication
(1) PVC Primer & Glue
(2) 3/16th Aluminum Rivets modified to fit the cable tie mount
(2) Cable Tie Mount, Fastener Mount, 2 Way, 0.30" Maximum Tie Width, 7/8" Long, Black
(2) Plastic Wire Ties
(2) #8 Stainless Steel Clamp 7/16" - 29/32"

The top is removable so that filter media can be added or changed in the future ....

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d709b3127cceed6cbddcf0d700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160928102127264.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d709b3127cceed6d238251ba00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160928102134573.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480//

Just prior to installation ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce23b3127cceed11dc61df5500000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161002093653619.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

After Installation ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce23b3127cceed11a827df2900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161002093649885.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

We continue to have rain pouring down so I made no progress on the body yesterday ... ugh!

[carlewms]

Ok I didn't go a shoot an elephant ...

Elephant Ears or the front wheel well liners are installed ... and made removable. Stealing the idea from EdwardB and others, instead of using rivets, 1/4-20 1/2" bolts and rivnuts were used (4 to the F-panel now and another to the body when finally installed after the body goes on).

The DS was installed as is but the PS was modified for the 3" vent duct installed belong the 3/4" frame member running along side the engine compartment. Trim will be installed on the cutout to protect the duct from chaffing on the sheet metal and the bubble seal installed on the parts alongside the body.

Driver's Side:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d708b3127cceed6f3c4d49ce00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160929131459820.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Passenger's Side:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce23b3127cceed11b8fbdffd00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161002093711333.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Final trimming as required will be done after body is on the frame and ears reinstalled.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce23b3127cceed110a1edf4100000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161002093646654.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

[carlewms]

While out of the garage earlier in the week, most of my remaining parts for the heater came in ...

I received the 90 deg fitting to install in the engine for the heater supply line ...

The only place I have left is the location on the thermostat housing.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce26b3127cceed1af1e204da00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161008025313525.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

It would seem that the lower part of the fitting will extend all the way to the bottom of the housing or may not even permit the full engagement of the threads ... so here is my question:

Do I trim off part of the fitting? and if so how much

Carl

[j.miller]

Trim it at the bottom of the threds....no reason for the standpipe...da Bat

[carlewms]

While in NC some more parts for the heater arrived ... unfortunately not all were the right ones.

The High Temp Silicone 2-ply Air Duct, 3 inch diameter, 6 foot temperature resistant 3" vent duct arrived from Pegasus Racing. Although quite a bit stiffer than the Duct Hose, Very Flexible, for Dust, Polyester, 3" ID from McMaster-Carr, it was still flexible enough install easily with the SS wire ties. I actually think it looks more automotive than the old stuff not to mention much safer.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce26b3127cceed1bf8da643200000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161008025316847.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

After doing a little research on the internet I cleaned up the steel wire ties for safety reasons: to secure them from coming loose and being a future cut hazard. They also look a lot neater. Basically you trim them to about 1/2" remains from the clasp, take some needle nose pliers and roll the remainder in the direction of the clasp tightening and securing the tie.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce26b3127cceed1bf00fe5d300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161008025311174.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[carlewms]

Servo Operated Heat Control Valve. With three major components to locate: The heater control valve (HCV), the controller and the dash control.

HCV: The valve is installed between the manifold (really the thermostat housing) and the heater core just behind the throttle body ... about the only spot I could find for it without major re-plumbing.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce28b3127cceed064226d2c100000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161009131615234.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

5/8" Heater Hose: The hose was routed from the HCV to the 1/4" NPT 90 deg elbow along the PS valley between the throttle body and the valve cover.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce28b3127cceed07ea72f28d00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161009131620287.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Controller: Mounted on top of the heater fan enclosure with wiring routed to power supply and the dash controls via the bulkhead connector.

Dash Control: The rheostat for the HCV (Heat Control) was located just above the Heater Fan Speed/Fresh Air Control on the dash. For now the Vintage supplied knobs are installed; later I will install more period appropriate knobs.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce28b3127cceed06bc8bd21300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161009131615363.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

90 Deg 1/4" NPT Barb Fitting: As it turned out this fitting required modification to be installed on the thermostat housing. 1" of the fitting below the NPT fitting was cut off to clear the water stream in the housing. In order to install the fitting the barb end had to be cut to clear the 90 deg outlet on the thermostat housing. After cutting the barb I was able to raise the edge enough to provide a ridge to help hold the 5/8" hose.

Before:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce28b3127cceed06b499d20500000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161009131617620.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

After:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce28b3127cceed0642bb536c00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161009131613157.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[AC Bill]

Be nice if you could find some old British style knobs, like these ones, but unlettered or for a heater control.

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt180/GWL-FFR/Cobra%20Dash/ERAKnobs001.jpg (http://s609.photobucket.com/user/GWL-FFR/media/Cobra%20Dash/ERAKnobs001.jpg.html)

[carlewms]

Bill,

Thanks ... yes those would look nice instead of the Vintage Air ones ... I found blanks at Holden site in UK but still looking to see if I can find a U.S. company with them like Moss for example.

Carl

[carlewms]

Bill,

I found these on eBay but still from UK ...

LUCAS HEATER FAN DASH KNOB AC COBRA FORD GT40 NEW
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LUCAS-HEATER-FAN-DASH-KNOB-AC-COBRA-FORD-GT40-NEW-/291885595111?hash=item43f5bcb9e7:g:enYAAOSwajVUNqA I&vxp=mtr

AUSTIN HEALEY 3000 BN4 TO BJ8 AC COBRA FORD GT40 DASH KNOB PULL17H1493 COLD AIR
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291885592779

[AC Bill]

I like those style! Need one for my heater control, and one for my headlights. All my other switches are toggles.

I wonder how hard they would be to adapt to the shafts? If they used a set screw, rather than being threaded on, perhaps they could just be drilled out as needed?

[carlewms]

Bill,

I will try to remember the thread but one of the guys on the other forum came up with a solution.

1. Purchase 1/4" brass stock from McMaster-Carr (Ultra-Machinable 360 Brass, Bar, 1/4" Hex Size #8952K23))
2. Epoxy the brass into the knob;
3. Drill out the brass to match the diameter of the switch or cable;
4. Drill and tap the knob for a small set screw; and,
5. Install the set screw to retain the knob.

I did confirm with the seller on eBay that the knobs all have the 1/4" hex opening.

Carl

[carlewms]

The plumbing for the heater finally arrived and is installed ...

Thermostat Connection to the heater supply hose ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce28b3127cceed069fac92bd00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161009131622629.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce28b3127cceed076576336600000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161009131624910.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

From the front of the engine to the heater via the PS valley ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce32b3127cceed0fafcacf6700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161013112444432.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Through the servo operated heater control valve (HCV) ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6ce28b3127cceed064226d2c100000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161009131615234.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

The Electronic Control Unit (ECU) for the HCV is on the top of the enclosure ...

Carl

[dallas_]

Looking good Carl!
Surely you will be done for TCC 2017, right?

[Boydster]

Hey Carl, I know you've been through a thousand different ideas, thoughts and changes on this system, but just for discussion... are you expecting any issues with the heater tap on the cold side of the t-stat?

[carlewms]

Looking good Carl!
Surely you will be done for TCC 2017, right?

absolutely ... and I see no reason not to be ...

[SMV]

Be nice if you could find some old British style knobs, like these ones, but unlettered or for a heater control.

http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt180/GWL-FFR/Cobra%20Dash/ERAKnobs001.jpg (http://s609.photobucket.com/user/GWL-FFR/media/Cobra%20Dash/ERAKnobs001.jpg.html)

I found a blank one and had a local sign company label it very similar to the vintage lettering. Cost $40, though. Both knobs were attached to the original switch posts with a little epoxy as filler for the flat side of the post. Also drilled and tapped for a set screw.

59809

[carlewms]

Hey Carl, I know you've been through a thousand different ideas, thoughts and changes on this system, but just for discussion... are you expecting any issues with the heater tap on the cold side of the t-stat?

Boydster,

Yes but I am not sure it will matter that much ... I think (since I have not had the engine up to temperature yet with the heater installed) that:

Before the engine heats up to start opening the T stat there won't be much heat except perhaps by conduction from the intake manifold to the t-stat housing. There will also be flow through the bypass but I don't think that will make a significant difference since it also bypass the heater connection.

I think it will be slower without the heater in the loop before the engine gets hot enough for the T-stat opens but I am not sure if that will be a significant enough of a difference to warrant moving things around. After driving the car if it does I can look at moving the location to one on the manifold.

Perhaps someone with more practical experience can weigh in and answer in case I am thinking totally wrong.

Carl

[AC Bill]

Does the electric HCV allow you to vary the volume of water passing through the the heater, or is it simply open or closed?

The heater can act as mini-radiator, and actually lower your coolant temp's slightly, when the valve is open, and the fan is running.

[Boydster]

My thinking is that there will be zero heat until the engine comes fully up to temp to open the t-stat. On cold days, you may never get any heat at all. With t-stat closed, There's virtually zero flow through the HVC because nothing is flowing right there on the cold side of the t-stat. I'm also concerned that the t-stat will reduce flow through the heater core vs coming out of the intake manifold and returning directly to the pump as originally designed. Even when full open, the t-stat is a choke point.

The original 5.0 design constantly circulated water through the heater core, using a system of doors to divert air. I understand the need for a HCV on these cars, but my point is that having water constantly circulating did not have any effect on the warm up times on a stocker.

By all means, try it. Please follow up and let us all know how it works... could be a Eureka! But if not, consider a fitting in the intake coolant passage boss just behind the t-stat that has a 90* elbow for the heater with an open port on top for your temp sensor / switch.

Side note: if there's too many switches / sensors / taps needed for the cooling system, I would put the electric fan temp switch in that spot right next to the t-stat. If the t-stat is rated for 180 and the switch for 195, it would work perfectly as it's not depended on when the engine is colder / t-stat closed.

[carlewms]

Does the electric HCV allow you to vary the volume of water passing through the the heater, or is it simply open or closed?

The heater can act as mini-radiator, and actually lower your coolant temp's slightly, when the valve is open, and the fan is running.

Bill,

The HCV allows you to vary the amount of water flowing to the heater.

Carl

[carlewms]

My thinking is that there will be zero heat until the engine comes fully up to temp to open the t-stat. On cold days, you may never get any heat at all. With t-stat closed, There's virtually zero flow through the HVC because nothing is flowing right there on the cold side of the t-stat. I'm also concerned that the t-stat will reduce flow through the heater core vs coming out of the intake manifold and returning directly to the pump as originally designed. Even when full open, the t-stat is a choke point.

The original 5.0 design constantly circulated water through the heater core, using a system of doors to divert air. I understand the need for a HCV on these cars, but my point is that having water constantly circulating did not have any effect on the warm up times on a stocker.

By all means, try it. Please follow up and let us all know how it works... could be a Eureka! But if not, consider a fitting in the intake coolant passage boss just behind the t-stat that has a 90* elbow for the heater with an open port on top for your temp sensor / switch.

Side note: if there's too many switches / sensors / taps needed for the cooling system, I would put the electric fan temp switch in that spot right next to the t-stat. If the t-stat is rated for 180 and the switch for 195, it would work perfectly as it's not depended on when the engine is colder / t-stat closed.

The fans are all controlled by the EFI ECU and sense temperature on the intake manifold directly behind the t-stat housing.

Based on discussions on the other forum it was recommended to keep the sensor driving the EFI ECU on the intake manifold side because that side will tell the ECU as the temperature rises in the engine more directly than the T stat side (but clearly based on your experience it would not work on the downstream side of the T-stat). Interestingly when I asked Gordon Levy about where to put the heater inlet (he supplied the engine) he immediately came back with the t-stat housing.

Based on the various responses on the forum and your response here it seems like the "T" for two connections is the only viable solution whether in the the PS or DS of the intake manifold.

Thanks again for the great input ... I will give it a shot as installed right now and then post the results.

[Boydster]

The fans are all controlled by the EFI ECU and sense temperature on the intake manifold directly behind the t-stat housing.

Based on discussions on the other forum it was recommended to keep the sensor driving the EFI ECU on the intake manifold side because that side will tell the ECU as the temperature rises in the engine more directly than the T stat side (but clearly based on your experience it would not work on the downstream side of the T-stat). Interestingly when I asked Gordon Levy about where to put the heater inlet (he supplied the engine) he immediately came back with the t-stat housing.

Based on the various responses on the forum and your response here it seems like the "T" for two connections is the only viable solution whether in the the PS or DS of the intake manifold.

Thanks again for the great input ... I will give it a shot as installed right now and then post the results.

Def agree with keeping the EFI ECU temp sensing on the intake side of the t-stat.
Yes, the DS water boss will also work for the t-fitting with what I suppose would be your temp gauge sender.

Interesting discussion, and yes, please keep us up to date how it works out.

[carlewms]

Folks,

This is not really an update on work accomplished but ...

I have had a health issue that has kept me out the garage since the 10/25 ... so no work other than planning, researching, getting parts in and trying to get the physical therapy done so that I can get out there and finish it up.

Regarding the heater inlet connection with the intake manifold ... I received the parts from Breeze while I was in hospital so that I can put the EFI Temperature Sensor and intake to the heater on the same fitting. It is Breeze part #70540 ECT Sensor Elbow Kit for 5/8" Heater Hose to CCW Water Pump without the hose.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6cc32b3127cceed8e2010368a00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420161213113133775.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The sensor goes on the top and the inlet to the heater on the side ...

[dallas_]

Carl,
Wondered where you have been. Did you say hospital??

[2FAST4U]

Excellent work Carl. Great attention to detail.

[carlewms]

Carl,
Wondered where you have been. Did you say hospital??

Yep ... I flew home from a business trip on 10/26... syncope struck me as I walked out; fell and messed up both knees ... walking with a walker now with a brace on the right knee. I also had a partially torn achilles tendon so I have a boot on the left leg.

I still have not been able to get back to work on the car ...

[Boydster]

Excellent. I think this will work better... more reliably... and more accurately. Sorry you got hurt.

[WIS89]

Carl-
I hope you are able to sue the heck out of that syncope fellow!! Hsly AHA

Seriously hope you are well soon, and better than ever. So sorry to hear about your fall.

I look forward to following your progress again very soon!

Regards,

Steve

[DaleG]

Don't rush the recovery.

Cheers, Dale

[carlewms]

Folks,

It has been a while ... too long since I have been here or for that matter in the garage working on the car ...

With the various health issues behind me ...

Insomnia struck again this morning ... or excitement on getting back in the "wrenching" mode. I got up around 3 am and headed out to the garage ...

As previously discussed I needed to rearrange fittings to allow the heater inlet to come off the intake manifold before the t-stat.

The heater inlet was originally downstream of the t-stat in a location on the t-stat housing:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dc36b3127cceee36e40426d400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170217102343240.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

After considerable discussion I really needed to move it to the intake manifold so I found a fitting from Breeze Automotive that provided for the inlet to the heater and the ECT temperature sensor.

Here is the new setup (with the spark plug wire disconnected at the dizzy for clarity).

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dc36b3127cceee378415878900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170217102343159.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I still need to cleanup the yellow wire from the alternator to the voltmeter, drain and fill with 50% coolant/antifreeze mixture and then pressure test.

It feels great to get back into the car ...

Carl

[wareaglescott]

Glad to hear those health issues are behind you and you are back at it!

[dallas_]

Glad to see you back at it. Still on for TCC?

[carlewms]

WarEagleScott and Dallas ... thanks ... it is good to be back with wrench in hand.

Dallas ... yes but it will be in gelcoat ...

Carl

[carlewms]

In preparations for the next fit up of the body ...

I trimmed the aluminum and installed the seals that go on the aluminum and frame.

As others have found ... During the first trial fit up the body was up very tight against the lower floor of the trunk not leaving any room for the bulb seal. Here is a photo prior to trimming ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dc07b3127cceee2196af461600000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170226115707512.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

For the first trial fit about 3/16" was trimmed off the panel including a small rear section of the DS vertical "wing".

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dc07b3127cceee21a91b871500000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170226115657173.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Note: For Apple users the camera has a neat application that comes with the operating system that allows you to insert a close up view (louver view) in a photo; it is great for showing details on a photo.

The bulb seal goes on the trunk sides, the rear of the trunk lower floor and the firewall. Here is a photo showing the bulb seal installed.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dc07b3127cceee218fed06c000000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170226115657611.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I wanted to keep these bulb seals as pliable as possible so after finding out that "plumber's grease" serves that purpose well, I picked up some of the slimy stuff (90% Silicone) and applied it to the bulb seal. Here is a comparison on a part of the seal.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dc09b3127cceee2dc41051aa00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170228115041705.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

In addition to the bulb seal there is weatherstripping attached to the trunk hoop and the 3/4" square tubes going down each side of the engine compartment (in some cases the white protective tape has not been removed yet.

Trunk Hoop:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dc09b3127cceee2da6ccd07700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170228115038325.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

3/4" Square Tube:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dc09b3127cceee2c9a3cf0d500000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170228115026165.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The weatherstripping was not installed where the cover of the DS foot box attaches ... it will wait until the top is finally installed.

My goal now is to get everything ready to reinstall the body to see if it fits properly and then get the doors, hood and trunk lid fit up done.

Am I on the right track?

Carl

[Jeff Kleiner]

Am I on the right track?

Carl

Yep!

Jeff

[carlewms]

I headed out to the Olde Goat Garage this morning and it was just too darn cold ... so I am going to catch up the build three instead ..

The body is back on ... (photos and more detail to follow). It is amazing how much better it fits when you have all the seals and weather stripping in place. The first shot at mounting and fitting the infamous doors is done ... and will require a lot of tedious work to get right before applying Rage Gold to cover up the remaining sins.

Heater Ventilation System Mockup ...

As a reminder ... I have set up the standard FFR supplied heater as a source of heat during the winter and for defrost and cool air during the summer ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a6d711b3127cceed69fd0d9ce900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420160930102505186.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

To date everything except the defroster section, the blast gate on the defroster leg and the two rear facing vents was installed ... now the rest of the installation was mocked up.

The DS rear facing vent shares duty with the defroster when the gate valve on the defroster is open (and the louver on the DS vent is closed)

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd24b3127cceeede645f13d400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170305122448195.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The upper DS outlet is connected to the PVC "T". Air for the defroster is sent up to the very nice NorthRacers defroster vent plenum via a 2 in blast gate valve. When not needed the air is directed to the DS rear facing louvered vent.

Once the exact position on the plenum is identified the vent tubes will be cut to fit and the "T" painted semi gloss black to match the remainder of the system.

Before fitting the body back on Craig and I were concerned that the plenum would not fit where it goes over the heater box ... there fore driving some unusual positions for the defroster vents. Fortunately after body fitting it looks like the plenum can be centered above the dash interior and have clearance over the heater box.

More to follow ...

[markiemark]

keep up the good work!!!

[carlewms]

With the assistance of Craig and Artie, the body is back on the beast ...

With the bulb seals and weatherstripping in place the body sits a whole lot better

1. Clearance For the Defroster Plenum. It looks like I will be able to mount the plenum without modification. The plenum is 1 1/8" deep and the space is 1 1/2" above the heater box.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd24b3127cceeede645f13d400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170305122448195.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

2. There is plenty of room for the top of the dash. I might have trimmed it a little much but fitting the dash will now be relatively easy and there will be no binding on the leather.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd27b3127cceeed8d52bbb1500000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170306150459380.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

3. Door Mockup ... first installation with the seals in place and, yes it does make a huge difference. Jeff Kleiner's Mk 4 Body Work Thread on the Factory Five Racing forums (http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/266792-mk4-bodywork-thread.html) has been a total blessing and extremely helpful. His first step was to get the door tops fitted ... so that is what I did.

Passenger Side Door ... normally this is supposed to be the easy one to fit up but so far that has not been the case.

Front

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd27b3127cceeed935461a7400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170306114532057.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The lower part of the door is about 1/4" below the level of the body in front of it .. ugh!

Rear

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd27b3127cceeed946dedb7d00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170306114531089.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Still a fair amount of fiddling to get this one better fitted ...

Driver's Side Door ... normally the real PIA and so far pretty much has been what others have found ...

Front

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd27b3127cceeed8839f3aba00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170306114534823.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Rear

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd27b3127cceeed84e5b7a8000000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170306114531501.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Sealing. Except for one small area on the PS in the trunk the bulb seal is touching the body as I believe it should.

Trimming. I have an area about 7" wide on the rear cockpit roll over that need to be trimmed slightly to make enough room for the carpet.

Having fun now for sure ...

Carl

[carlewms]

Has anyone installed the Breeze door latches and if so could you post some photos please ...

[carlewms]

After spending some more time on the doors ... I decided to tackle the trunk lid fitment. I thought I would wait until all the doors, trunk and hood are mocked up before breaking out the 80 grit sandpaper and Rage Gold again.

Getting the lid mounted ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd31b3127cceeec0b3b3e01300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170310103826444.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The MK 4 FFR uses the old style trunk hinges that are hidden inside the trunk giving a nice clean look to the area behind the cockpit. There is plenty of adjustment in the hinges to allow the trunk lid to be moved side to side and front to back. Easier done with an assistant, I did manage to get it attached.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd31b3127cceeec165b8c03f00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170310103835854.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

It is a bit of trial and error as you make multiple tries to get the lid in the best position before doing the final tightening of the hinge.

Here are the initial results ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd31b3127cceeec1d2ba01ce00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170310103845677.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I purchased a seal for the trunk from Breeze Automotive awhile back ... he no longer carries it but refers you to McMaster-Carr:

"We list it here however because you can order a 10' length from McMaster-Carr P/N 1120A411 at www.mcmaster.com at a good price. Edge Trim, Black Vinyl Pepple Grain, for 1/4" Thickness with 3/8" dia. tubular foam rubber seal on one side. This is similar to the edge trim FFR has supplied for roadster trunk openings but made to fit up to a 1/4" thick edge."

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd31b3127cceeec1dfa9c07300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170310103845863.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The lid fit got significantly better after the seal installation ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd31b3127cceeec1e7a8415e00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170310103846730.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Next Up .. the Trunk Latch

[carlewms]

After fiddling a little more with the hinge end of the trunk lid I proceeded to install the latching mechanism using the one supplied with the kit.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd31b3127cceeec0e92ae0a700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170310103839949.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Installation is fairly straightforward but I noted a some of challenges not mentioned in the manual:

1. The center hole for the square rod has to be drilled out to accommodate the boss under the handle. I used a 9/16" bit to get enough room for a tight fit;

2. The long bolt that goes through the valence and into the frame has a lock nut that goes on the frame end; with the tank in place getting this nut installed is not going to be easy. I decided to leave the nut off for now since there is enough rod length to hold everything in place while doing the gapping on the lid;

3. The manual does not mention installing the rubber gasket under the latch. I found it after the installation so it will go on when during the final installation;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd31b3127cceeec0e11961a000000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170310103841204.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

After adjusting the grip of the "hook" on the latch, the lid has a pretty good fit on the body. There are some high spots as the trunk turns down the back of the car and the lower valence is a little proud of the bottom edge of the trunk lid. I believe some of this I can take out by adjusting the position of the valence.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd31b3127cceeec0d2e221da00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170310105046023.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

The bolt/sleeve is not perpendicular to the valence ... I will try to get the body more aligned or at least the rear more aligned to see if it can be made more perpendicular ...

The position of the valence can be adjusted with the quick jack bolts and somewhat with the bolt/sleeve that are part of the latching system.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd31b3127cceeec18e7f801500000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170310103846483.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

[AC Bill]

Coming along good Carl.
Curious as to why you needed to order a trunk seal. Does FFR no longer include them, or was yours damaged or something?

It is possible to reach the trunk striker bolt's, nut, with the fuel tank in place, although it's a finger tip job, getting the nut first threaded on. I had to play around with my striker sleeve (tube that covers the bolt), trying to adjust the lower body at that point, ever so slightly, and had it in and out several times.

Are you concerned that once you shift the body over slightly, to make your striker bolt centered better, all the trunk lid fitting will need to be re-done?

[carlewms]

Bill,

The answer to the first question ... well let's just say it was a senior moment. I now have a spare :roll eyes:

I am going to give it the old college try on the nut ... my fat old fingers will probably try my patience; and,

Yes ... a little. I have not actually started the process of trimming or sanding for the gaps yet. I have done some measurements to see if the body is centered on the chassis and it appears to be so (it also looks like it is visually in the center as well).

One thought I had was to slightly elongate the hole in the fiberglass to center the striker ... it would not take much.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Carl

[carlewms]

The door latches are installed temporarily ... pretty much as outlined in the manual. I debated and researched the forums to see when it should be done versus the final body work on the doors. After fiddling with the position of both doors ... I decided to proceed.

After using most of the shimming washers to correctly position the striker so the base was even with the vertical face where the latch is attached to the door (I will replace the washers with a section of tube/pipe polished to match the washers. I put blue painter's tape on the door area to make marking the 4 attachment points for the 4 sheet metal screws that hold the latching mechanism easier to locate.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd32b3127cceeece1648c96500000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170314040559481.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd32b3127cceeece8a1cc97f00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170314013944264.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The door latching mechanism (previously modified) is latched on to the striker (this establishes the position of the latching mechanism on the door).

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd32b3127cceeecfb296e9a500000060O29AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170314014004512.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The spacers provided by FFR where used; I will paint them before final fitting.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd32b3127cceeecf8af368ec00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170314014007840.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

When I initially installed the DS latch the striker was to far into the PS of the mounting tab and the latch was engaging but not enough to hold under pressure. The notch on the striker kept the door from flying open but the pin was not seating in the hole on the striker properly. A slight tweak and it worked perfectly.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd32b3127cceeece38fbc9c100000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170314014018971.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The supplied cover will go on during final installation.

[carlewms]

I installed the modified license plate light in the trunk lid. The light fixture was modified to include long lasting LED lights as well as the Kleiner Mod to allow installation of the license plate without the latch handle being covered.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd32b3127cceeecf63b2a97100000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170314014012595.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The template from the manual was modified to reflect the changes to the mount. The hole in the upper left corner is not used.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd32b3127cceeecf3adce9ab00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170314014009102.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The template was positioned to give as much room for the plate and still provide a solid surface for the rubber to seal the fixture against the body.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd32b3127cceeecf5220e96300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170314014002066.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

A 1/2 inch bit was used to make the ends of the slot and the initial holes. The slot was then cleaned up using a file readied to accept the fixture. The fixture fit a little tight in the two holes drilled to attach it which is what I wanted.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd32b3127cceeece8a20c94300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170314014010043.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Here is a photo with the fixture installed.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd32b3127cceeece1c3fc91700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170314014006176.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Carl

[ThickCobra]

Carl,

I cannot seem to find the license plate template in neither the hard copy nor electronic version of the manual. Could you point me in the right direction?

[BigUgly]

Carl,

This observation goes back to your post #608. Now that you are in the body work phase be careful with that Silicone Grease. Silicone and paint jobs just don't go together. It wouldn't take much for some of it from your bulb seals to get on to the body and ruin your paint job.

A friend of mine owns a body shop and one day he was in the spray booth painting a car while his son was in the next bay detailing his own vehicle apparently spraying armorall on something and the mist got sucked into the air intake filters of the spray booth, they ended up stripping the vehicle and painting it again, since that episode he has not allowed any silicone products in the shop.

BigUgly

[TomV]

Really nice build, best of luck with it

[carlewms]

[Carl,

I cannot seem to find the license plate template in neither the hard copy nor electronic version of the manual. Could you point me in the right direction?[/QUOTE]

I found it in the templates section in the back of the manual ... specifically it is on the back of the page with the template for the reverse lights. Here is the one from my manual.

65088[QUOTE=ThickCobra;271497]

[carlewms]

Carl,

This observation goes back to your post #608. Now that you are in the body work phase be careful with that Silicone Grease. Silicone and paint jobs just don't go together. It wouldn't take much for some of it from your bulb seals to get on to the body and ruin your paint job.

A friend of mine owns a body shop and one day he was in the spray booth painting a car while his son was in the next bay detailing his own vehicle apparently spraying armorall on something and the mist got sucked into the air intake filters of the spray booth, they ended up stripping the vehicle and painting it again, since that episode he has not allowed any silicone products in the shop.

BigUgly

BigUgly,

Thanks for the additional update ... before the body got near the seals I did completely wipe them down with towels to remove any excess silicone.

I will store the silicone out of the garage as well just as a precaution.

Carl

[carlewms]

After making all the adjustments I could after adding the latches, I put the front up on jack stands to get room to move and fix the lower part of the rocker panel to get a better fit on the doors. As Kleiner over on the FFR forums says ... your really "moving the hole to fit the doors".

With the help of Craig Stuard ...you need one person to hold the body in position and one to fix the body to the frame with sheet metal screws. We ended up with one screw basically at the front outside corner of the foot box and one at the 2" square tube just at the back edge of the door.

Here are the results before any gapping or Rage Gold ...

Driver Side Door:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd34b3127cceeecbfc2eba8300000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170315143515031.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd34b3127cceeecb82883b2a00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170315143514651.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Passenger Side Door:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd34b3127cceeecbded63b5a00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170315143513649.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd34b3127cceeecade721bb200000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170315143511681.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The difference between the cowl and the door seems to be caused by the shape of the door ... I tried to reduce it but it affected the position of the lower door and the inside of the door went below the cowl.

Any thoughts before I tackle the gaps and filler ...

[Jeff Kleiner]

What you're seeing is pretty typical Carl. To show you how typical take a look at these photos---these are two different cars but they took filler is in pretty much the same spots which is also where yours needs it.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_4328.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Mk4%207276/100_2403.jpg

As you've discovered the door tops are generally lower than the cowl and also the main body takes a pretty severe dive or roll into the door opening. To straighten these areas out I bridge all the way across between the door and body with filler then cut through right before it cures:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/RyanW/100_4314.jpg

After a couple of applications once the body and door lines are flowing nicely I butter it back into the door jamb and square the edge off while doing the gaps/margins ("making the hole fit the door":))

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/RyanW/100_4336.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Steve%20J/100_4925.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Steve%20J/100_4939_1.jpg

Sure wish we had a visit with our daughter in Manassas coming up soon but we probably won't be back out there again until summer---I'd love to come spend a day with ya'.

Carry on!

Jeff

[Jazzman]

Jeff Kleiner, you are an artist! That is both quite ingenious as well as being clearly described! Thanks!!

[carlewms]

Jeff Kleiner, you are an artist! That is both quite ingenious as well as being clearly described! Thanks!!

Jeff,

Ditto on Jazzman's post ... Thanks so much for the feedback both in photos and words. As this is my very first attempt at body work these posts are invaluable to the project.

I will be headed to the store for some more Rage Gold today ... I will be needing it for sure.

Carl

PS Welcome anytime your back in Manassas ... The Olde Goat Garage is always open!

[Jeff Kleiner]

Welcome anytime your back in Manassas ... The Olde Goat Garage is always open!

I've talked with Craig a couple of times about trying to do that but you know how packed with activities those family visits get! Next time for sure :)

Jeff

[carlewms]

The next job I tackled is the hood ...

To set the stage I am using the Breeze Hood Hinges which are more like the ones used in the originals and are definitely less complicated than the newer modern versions provided by FFR. Another reason: When you get the basic kit you don't get the new hinge mechanisms; Breeze were less expensive.

To do the test fitting I taped on rubber bumpers provided in the kit (1 large in the center at the cockpit end and one small at each corner). Taking 80 grit sandpiper to round off the edges and before installing the hood to the hinges ...

The PS Front Corner

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd37b3127cceeef454b5f34b00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170316124346152.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The DS Front Corner ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd37b3127cceeef5086452c800000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170316124343549.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

These photos sort of show that the arch of the rear of the hood is slightly less than the arch of the cockpit

The PS Rear Corner ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd37b3127cceeef4af9f32b400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170316124346895.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The DS Rear Corner ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd37b3127cceeef44576322800000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170316124349227.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

With the PS side down the gap increases on the DS ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd37b3127cceeef55d94128a00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170316124349943.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I see two solutions to this problem ... 1) Set the hood out in the sun and prop up the center while weighing down the sides to change the arch a little bit or 2) Establish the positions of the hood latches such that they pull the hood down into the proper position. It would seem the latter is the easier way to go.

What do you all think I should do ...

Carl

[Jeff Kleiner]

...Establish the positions of the hood latches such that they pull the hood down into the proper position. It would seem the latter is the easier way to go.

What do you all think I should do ...

Carl

That's how you do it. One of the larger bumpers in the center (you may have to shave it a bit to get the hood flush with the cowl) then use the latch paddles to pull the corners down. I've not used the Breeze hinge but know it has a good bit of adjustability like the FFR version so you will use it to bring the front of the hood into place. When the front corners are flush it is not uncommon to need to use a bumper at the center to get the front edge of the hood flush with the nose. By the way, don't drill the holes for these bumpers until you have established the centerline for the stripes so that they don't wind off to one side or the other (one of those OCD anal retentive things that would drive me crazy :rolleyes:). Once your 4 corners and front & rear edges are set you can work on the sides. Usually on Mk4s the body will be low in relation to the hood. Bring the body up to the hood by shimming between the underside of the hood opening flange and square chassis tubes. I have some 1/4" thick runner sheet that works great for this when cut into 1"x2" pieces. Most times adding these a couple of places down each side (sometimes stacked 2 deep) will bring the surfaces to flush or close enough that only a minimal amount of filler is necessary. Before pulling the body I mark where they went and then when doing the final installation after paint silicone them in place.

Hope that helps!

Jeff

[carlewms]

Jeff,

Thanks ... it helps a bunch!

Do you end up gapping the hood like the doors?

Again thanks for all your help.

Carl

[42Bfast]

BigUgly,

Thanks for the additional update ... before the body got near the seals I did completely wipe them down with towels to remove any excess silicone.

I will store the silicone out of the garage as well just as a precaution.

Carl

I'm just coming off of a 30 year career in aviation manufacturing,...... WD-40 and similar lubricants are not allowed in any of the factories for the same effect on painting. Recommend you be very careful with all caulks and lubricants around a surface that is to receive paint. It is very easy to contaminate the surface enough for paint to not adhere. A little on your finger or a rag, and then against an otherwise clean surface can make for an ugly spot when painted, for example. Not the end of the world, but a significant pain nonetheless.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Do you end up gapping the hood like the doors?



Generally I set the gaps and adjust to get the hood and body matching as closely as possible as described earlier then use filler as necessary to get the hood and body flush. Sometimes "butter" it down into the openings to even up the radius all the way around but it usually doesn't take much:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=65164&d=1489752417

Cheers,
Jeff

[carlewms]

I broke out the Rage Gold and started filling in some of the PS door and adjacent body. The garage was a bit cool ...no cold; so working time was not an issue.

Here is the door top before I started filling ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd00b3127cceeeff770b809300000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170321125552935.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I mixed up a batch and started at the front top of the door and worked my way down the vertically section to just through the the lower part of the door where it curves back to the rear. I had my trustee large putty knife in the ready to make the first cut to create the gap ... and then I got a little distracted with the rear of the door (another one of those senior moments).

By the time I got "undistracted" the putty knife would barely penetrate the rapidly setting filler ... any more delay and I would have glued the door to the body! The only immediate solution was to open the door; this is the result. A jagged edge of epic proportions! Fortunately more filler, a rasp and some 80 grit will help "fix" the problem.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd00b3127cceeefebfa5a01500000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170321125550558.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd00b3127cceeeff1cd0c0e500000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170321125547137.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

After a little bit of sanding the gap started to look a little more uniform ... but not much. There are still some low areas on both the door and the body to fill in and then a lot more sanding to do.

Although I couldn't find a minimum temperature for using the filler I decided I better wait until it was warmer before the next use...and I ran out of hardener.

Because of the temperatures I will shift gears on getting the hood ready for installation and leave the filling for a slightly warmer day.

[carlewms]

With just a little time in the Olde Goat Garage I turned to working on getting the hood ready to install on the body.

After very good feedback from those online the best way of dealing with the difference in arch at the rear of the hood was installing the hood latches and the hood connected to the hinges.

First getting the front of the hood on the Breeze supplied hinges. Craig had previously helped me locate the position to attach the hinge flange to the hood. This was not an easy job with body and radiator in place...Craig did the hard part; I just pushed the hood down.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd00b3127cceeeff960bc07b00000050O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170321141320970.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

To improve the accuracy of the installation I decided to make a template to use to mark the 3 drilling points on the hood (this also gave near chance to make sure there was no interference between the new and old holes already in the hood).

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd00b3127cceeefe50d8e08700000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170321141331605.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Later I recreated the template in a drawing program and validated it against the actual flange and the original hand drawn template. Two copies were made and taped on to the area using the edges of the flange marked on the body as a guide. The distances between the template and reference points checked to make sure they were the same. The true test will be when mounting the good to the hinges.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd00b3127cceeeff514e80c500000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170321141400828.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Next the latches on the rear of the trunk lid. This took longer because it meant cutting into the top of the hood ... measure three times drill once.

Blue painter's tape was put on the rear rib of the hood (a little protection for the fiberglass and makes it easier for my tired old eyes to see the marks).

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd00b3127cceeefe6e99e0d900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170321144706971.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Pilot holes were drilled from this side of the hood taking care to make sure the drill bit is completely perpendicular to the surface. The hood was flipped over to drill the final holes. The instructions call to drill through both layers with a 5/8" bit; took a slightly different route sort of by necessity.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd00b3127cceeeff6eda41e600000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170321141347026.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Using a step drill bit with tape applied to mark the depth (or the max diameter not to be exceeded) allowed cutting a smaller diameter hole on the inner cover of the hood; shown here with the latch installed.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd00b3127cceeefea0b561a200000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170321141349843.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I drew a line perpendicular to the hood edge through the center of the hole to help in marking the holes for the two mounting screws. As per the manual the latch base was used to mark the hole locations.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd00b3127cceeeff1c15411000000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170321141341368.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Part 2 will have the installation of the body side parts ... and a little more trauma or drama.

[AC Bill]

Depending on how much detail you may like Carl, I have seen a few builders make polished bezels for the underside of the hood where the shaft protrudes. They are a nice finishing touch. These could be added anytime in the future of course.

[edwardb]

Depending on how much detail you may like Carl, I have seen a few builders make polished bezels for the underside of the hood where the shaft protrudes. They are a nice finishing touch. These could be added anytime in the future of course.



Using a step drill bit with tape applied to mark the depth (or the max diameter not to be exceeded) allowed cutting a smaller diameter hole on the inner cover of the hood; shown here with the latch installed.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7dd00b3127cceeefea0b561a200000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170321141349843.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/



I found putting a bushing in the hood rib looks more finished plus provides nice stability to the latch mechanism. I used standard bronze bushings from McMaster that fit over the shaft with a little adjustment. Installed before paint so they get finished along with everything else. Works really well. One other comment FWIW. I agree the shaft looks best centered on the rib. But be careful. In this location the tip of the paddle will hit the body opening if you have it rotated around that direction when closing. Ask me how I know. I push them back a little so if that happens it hits the stepped down hood lip area instead. Still catches on the aluminum pieces under the hood lip just fine.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Update%2012032016/th_IMG_0816_zpsiwz6pte7.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Update%2012032016/IMG_0816_zpsiwz6pte7.jpg.html)

[carlewms]

Paul,

Thanks for the input ... and another thing to order from M-C. I like the look.

I wish I had thought of the issue with the paddle hitting the paint if in the closed position.

Since i have already drilled the holes do you think I could reshape the paddles so they won't hit the exposed part of the hood?

Carl

[edwardb]

Paul,

Thanks for the input ... and another thing to order from M-C. I like the look.

I wish I had thought of the issue with the paddle hitting the paint if in the closed position.

Since i have already drilled the holes do you think I could reshape the paddles so they won't hit the exposed part of the hood?

Carl

I probably wouldn't do anything to the paddles. I'll bet most other builds have the same issue. Up to you though. Just be aware and don't learn the hard way like I did. Move them back a little on the next build! :o

[Brew211]

Carl, forgive me if I am missing something here, but I am amazed at the amount of body work you are doing, your work looks remarkable. Is this typical? Does everyone have to go through this effort?
Thanks,
Todd

[Jazzman]

Short answer: yes. Either you do it yourself or you pay someone else to do it. (That is if you want a good paint job!!) Talk to Jeff Kleiner or Jeff "Da Bat" Miller about how many hours it takes to get a good paint job done. I have heard estimates from 100 to 150 hours to do it right. The pros can probably do it more quickly due to experience. The actual laying on of the color coat is close to the last step in the process. The reason a great paint job looks great is all the work you never realize that goes on before the color is ever applied. Keep up the good work Carl! You are an inspiration!!

"Good paint jobs are not cheap, and cheap paint jobs aren't good!"

[Brew211]

WOW!!!!
What about all the alignment issues, is that typical?

[Jazzman]

WOW!!!!
What about all the alignment issues, is that typical?

Yep. These cars are being built from the ground up. Everything that Ford or Chevy might do to your daily driver has to be done on these cars. Every car has to be aligned. It is the final step in setting up the suspension. We can "eyeball" the fittings when we build the suspension, but to get the angles right so the car steers straight and true, an alignment is critical. The weight of the car also impacts the angle of the tire tread on the ground, thus affects tread wear. Some do the alignment themselves, others (like me) will take it in for an alignment after it is all completed. There are others who know a whole lot more than me about steering geometry and caster and camber angles for optimum performance, but that's it in a nutshell.

[Brew211]

I am so sorry, what I meant and should have said was the body alignment with the Doors, hood, and trunk issues I have seen with Carl's body work. Thank you Jazzman for the time you spent with your response. I do understand the car alignment of course.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I am so sorry, what I meant and should have said was the body alignment with the Doors, hood, and trunk issues I have seen with Carl's body work. Thank you Jazzman for the time you spent with your response. I do understand the car alignment of course...

As I said to Carl in a reply to this thread a couple of weeks ago---for the most part what he is encountering is pretty typical.

Jeff

[carlewms]

Thanks all ... after throwing mud on the doors for the last two days. I feel like sort of like The Karate Kid ... Mud On ... Sand Mud Off and repeat multiple times.

After doing just what I have done so far ... I totally understand why the "paint job" on one of these cars can be so expensive and time consuming if done correctly.

Brew211 none of this should discourage anyone from building one of these cars ... When I started I never intended to do the body work; I was going to pay someone else to handle that part of the build. Well time and mainly budget got in the way of that plan.

When I started I had zero experience doing any body work whether on metal or fiberglass so experience is not a prerequisite for attempting the body work in my humble opinion.

Additionally you have wonderful resources in this and other forums whether researching the tools needed, the ins and outs of the unique features of these bodies or just plain encouragement when things don't go right.

Last, as much as we sometimes ***** about the bodies, from what I can see from the other manufacturers (except Superformance which really doesn't count on the body work side) the FFR product requires less body work than the others.
Here is an ERA from a friend on another forum for example:

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/dclemans/ERA%20Cobra/P1010021.jpg

BTW I am actually have a blast doing this type of work.

Carl

[Brew211]

Thanks Carl, I must be honest, nothing so far seams intimidating with the exception of the body work. That does not look fun to me......... but I will take your word for it.
Great Job!

[carlewms]

After a lot of time in the Olde Goat Garage ....

The doors are installed and ... almost ... fitted. The trunk lid installed and fitted and the mold release seams readdressed.

"Installed" meaning attached to the frame. "Fitted" means a lot of filling and getting the gaps the even as well as adjustment at the hinges. Getting between the two states has been quite an experience for this newbie.

Of the three items the doors required the most time ... and filler.

Doors

Overall Strategy: From Jeff K. - "Make the Hole fit the Door". The steps I took were based on the work of all those that have gone before me and the expertise of Jeff Squared (Jeff K and Jeff M), EdwardB and others.

Preparations: in my case I had already applied and rolled the seams at the inside edges of the door.

1. Fit the top of the door front and rear using the adjustments at the hinge;
2. Fit the bottom of the door front and rear using the adjustments at the hinge;
3. Move the body in or out at the front and rear of the door; secure the body where it goes under the body only after it is in the final position;

This is an iterative process one which iterated several times. Here are the results:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da23b3127cceee912ff0dcbb00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170402121720734.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da23b3127cceee91dfecdcdf00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170402121720294.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da23b3127cceee906e68bcd700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170402121719651.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da23b3127cceee90867ebcb500000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170402121718565.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

4. Clean the entire area of the door with 1) Microfiber towel with soap (Dawn works as a degreaser as well) and water; 2) Scotchpad with degreaser; and, 3) Completely rinse with clean water;
5. Let everything dry thoroughly;
6. Apply Eastwood's Pre Paint Preparation;
7. Wipe off using a clean paper towel ... it's important to use a clean part of the towel each time to avoid spreading contamination; and,

8. While the area was drying (the pre paint prep evaporates in just a few minute), prepare the Rage Gold

Apply the Filler: Based on the recommendations of the guys that do this for a living I used Evercoats Rage Gold as a filler.

1. Depending on the temperature and humidity... the filler working time will vary considerably so I found I had to plan accordingly. The way I did it was to use a marker to note the sections to be filled, divide up the work and mix just enough to cover those areas;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da23b3127cceee91ea251da400000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170402123104051.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

2. Apply the filler ... i mainly use these yellow spreaders. Deciding how much filler to apply is tricky; you want enough that when sanded there is enough filler remains but not so much that you have waste;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da23b3127cceee910575dc2b00000040O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170402123529910.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

3. Before the filler gets completely hard ... clean away any excess dropped on the body and knock off the rough edges on the surface; and,

Here are some Work In Progress photos ...

The jamb of the door was back filled after getting the gaps right ... or at least close

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da23b3127cceee90be833d6400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170402123117928.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

4. Let it cure for at least 20 minutes.

Sanding: details on the next post.

[Brew211]

HOLY SMOKES! That is a lot of work...... well done!

[carlewms]

Thanks for the comments ...

I am struggling a bit on how to finish off the intersection between the tops of the doors and the body front and rear.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da22b3127cceee934c8bc44500000030O29AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170403124033841.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da22b3127cceee92900265de00000030O29AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170403124034432.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

What did you do here?

Thanks,

Carl

[carlewms]

Taking the advice from Jeff K ...

I needed to do some more filling in (I chose to use HSRF) to get the gaps down from Grand Canyon size to something more reasonable. The journey has started but sometimes I feel like am in a tunnel, can see the light in the tunnel ... but I am not sure it is a train headed my way.

Here are few photos of the journey so far ...

The starting point DS rear interface with the body ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da22b3127cceee934c8bc44500000030O29AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170403124033841.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Starting to build up the interface ...

Building up the back of the door panel with HSRF ... this stuff is hard to sand if you let it fully cure. I found it easier to wait until it turned and then knocked off the big stuff first and then sanded quickly there after.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da29b3127cceee84fea5489e00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170408231741120.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Here is a view from the top ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da29b3127cceee84c35d08e000000030O29AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170408231755372.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I have made it this far in the effort ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da29b3127cceee85b503a9f900000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170408231725324.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

If I have time tomorrow I will get back into the Rage Gold (assuming that is the right thing to do) to the final form smoothed and more sand paper to get the gaps right.

Any helpful hints would be gratefully appreciated.

Carl

[wareaglescott]

Thanks for the pictures and documentation on your learning curve with the body work. I see a 2nd factory five in my future and am on the fence on trying the body work on the next one. I am enjoying following your progress. Sorry but I sure don't have any helpful hints for you but keep up the good work!

[jrcuz]

Hang in there Carl!
JR

[Boydster]

Keep at it Carl. You are braver and have a lot more patience than I do. Bravo.

[carlewms]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAUPHgjKSq4&lc=z13zgblppr3vvvwi304cgf3welj3jtjap4g

Work in Progress ... sometimes too slow at progress.

[dallas_]

Your patience will be rewarded grasshopper. :)

[carlewms]

ust to make sure the story is complete ... there have been a few "booboos" so far in getting the body work ready for painting ...

1. Sanding Too Much. In my zeal to get the right shape there have been two times when I actually sanded a hole in the fiberglass ... not a big holes but ones that required applying 3M HSRF to repair.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da29b3127cceee84af9d081600000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170408231728722.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Note: The hole in the photo has been expanded for clarity.

2. Forgetting or Failing to Install All the Seals. The seals (bulb seal on the aluminum panels) and the weatherstriping (on the frame around the hood opening) must be installed before attempting to get the doors fitted to the body. The trunk seal should be temporarily installed and the hood trimmed and supported with seal and or rubber buttons as required.

3. Cracked Door Latch Support. Somehow I managed to crack the support ... either from dropping the door or most likely from pulling on the door when I "glued" it to the body with Rage Gold ... another blunder.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da09b3127cceeeadd797384000000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170428223416293.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

4. Glueing the Doors to the Body. This occurred on more than one ocassion ... I got lost in sanding and shaping one area while the filler solidified in the gaps on the doors. The fix usually involve at minimum a utility knife and in one worst case a large flat blade screwdriver and a rubber mallet ... oh and a whole lot of pulling to get the door to break loose. Note that this is likely the cause of the problem in #3 since I could have been putting pressure on the door with it still latched.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7da09b3127cceeeac8be0996500000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170428223422504.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

5. Pinholes, Pinholes and More Damn Pinholes. After getting the sanding done to 120 grit I inspected the surface carefully and found a lot more pinholes than I actually expected. I think the causes for their sudden appearance ... 1) Sanding through the gelcoat in some places; 2) Improper mixing of the Rage Gold; and, 3) Applying the filler too late ... meaning as it was turning or setting. I used a 3M product

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db23b3127cceef51c266808f00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170502141620777.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[carlewms]

Thanks for the feedback ...

Here are some more questions requesting your wise and sage counsel ...

1. How much gap between the body and the side pipes where they exit the body? It would seem that you want it tight but not tight enough that the two touch under heavy acceleration as the engine twists a little.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db27b3127cceef58703bc21500000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170506093833861.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

2. Side Mirrors. Everything I have read and, in some cases experienced, is that the fender mounted mirrors are basically non functional ... at least for a view down the side of the car. Because of budget considerations spending $250 on a set of these is out of the question (although they are highly recommended on the FFR forums).

http://www.breezeautomotive.com/_images/products/product1_757.jpg

They mount on the sides of the windshield using the hardware for the wind wings.

I am looking at some motorcycle mirrors like these ...

http://images.motorcycle-superstore.com/productimages/300/0000-Bikers-Choice-4-Inch-Round-Mirror-Chrome-MCSS.jpg from the Motorcycle Superstore

Thoughts and feedback please ...

Carl

[Jeff Kleiner]

I have at least 3 cars out there wearing inexpensive Speedway Peep mirrors.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/4-Inch-Peep-Mirror,3811.html

Although not focused on them this photo kind of gives you an idea of where they're installed. I don't think I've driven any of the cars with them enough to form an opinion but the owners all seem to be satisfied with how they work out.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Mk4%207276/100_3192.jpg

I went a different route with my own car and used Raydots and mounts from Finish Line but with some mods.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_1290.jpg

I originally ordered one with a flat lens for the driver's side and another with convex for the passenger side. Turned out that I couldn't see for squat! Took the mirrors apart, removed the glass lenses and replaced them with some cheap stick on convex ones from Pep Boys or Autozone which fit perfectly into the opening. What a difference!

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_1289.jpg

Here is the view from the driver's seat. Yeah, it has that "objects in mirror may be closer than they appear" thing going on but most importantly you can tell when something is there and then pinpoint EXACTLY where.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_1293.jpg

On the passenger side visibility was compromised a bit by the windshield post. Although I could see objects it just wasn't positioned for a quick glance so I extended it out about 2" and now it is much better. I know this won't be for everybody for aesthetic reasons but I can live with it and the clearer field of vision it provides. Chalk one up for "form follows function"!

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_1291.jpg

I've found that mirrors are very important on these cars since people tend to drive along hanging out off of the back quarters taking photos or cell phone video. Being able to tell that they are there at a glance with good mirrors is mandatory!

Cheers,
Jeff

[wareaglescott]

I have the mirrors mounted on the wind wings. I like them but have no experience with the fender mounted mirror so I cant tell you if they are much better. I am 6'3" and have the high back seats so my getting out of the car may be a little different but I was surprised to find I keep hitting the mirror with my left knee when I get out. Was hoping to get the positioning set and tighten down the adjustment so it doesn't move around but I keep bumping it. Had not really heard that complaint on these mirrors before. May be a unique problem to me but thought I would mention it. The finish on the piece itself is very nice.

[carlewms]

Thanks all ...

Jeff thanks also for the lead on the mirrors ... I think the peep mirrors are for me.

How did you mount them on the windshield post? Did you use a mount like the ********** one on your car to use as a base?

Again .. thanks all.

Carl

[Jeff Kleiner]

Carl,
They have a clamp that will straddle the windshield post and gets secured with setscrews. If you're so inclined you could modify it to become a bolt on mount like Chris did here:


I made a small aluminum plate to replace the clamp on bracket on the peep mirror. I drilled and tapped two holes for machine screws, and made a large central countersunk hole to allow access to the screw that mounts the mirror to the base. Drilled two holes in the pillar and mounted with a couple of chrome plated cap screws. I didn't want to use the central screw to mount the mirror because I was worried that it would loosen over time and rotate.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j63/cwood8656/Cobra/PeepMirrorMount002.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j63/cwood8656/Cobra/PeepMirrorMount003.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j63/cwood8656/Cobra/PeepMirrorMount006.jpg

HTH,

Chris.


Cheers,
Jeff

[carlewms]

For the last two days ... I fiddled with the final placement of the windshield.

One of the most tiresome tasks in the build, the installation of the windshield is also one of the most frustrating. The bodies are definitely not symmetrical and FFR states in the instructions that the windshield frames vary depending on their vendor source. These factors combine to cause an iterative process of mounting, measuring, removing and adjusting the holes in the body to get the the windshield in place.

Ideally this is a two person job ... but in this case I had to improvise a little. I used a cargo strap with rubberized hooks to hold the windshield at the desired angle. The ratchet on the strap allowed for minor incremental changes to the angle of the windshield to the body.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db37b3127cceef74d61aca7f00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170516085023648.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

On Friday before starting Craig and I watched the Build School video on the process of installing the windshield posts on to the frame around the windshield. The chrome plated brass screws into the brass plate in the windshield frame was the delicate part; too much torque and the brass just strips out. So far so good; but some filing of the screws to get the posts completely secured to the windshield and prevent them from cracking the glass.

I am also checking with Whitby Motors to get their SS replacements for the brass plates in the windshield. Using their steel plates with SS screws from MC will reduce the chances of striping the screws. The screw part is JIS 18-8 Stainless Steel Phillips Flat Head Screws, M5 x 0.8 mm Thread, 8 mm Long, packs of 10. I called them yesterday and they are sending me the inserts and the screws ...

There are several constraints or parameters from all those that have done this before me:

1. Requirements for installation of the FFR Premium soft top ... the distance from the top screw on the frame to the rear of the door needed to be 27" (Note: I have also seen where the final angle between the windshield posts and the cowl should be 53 deg ...

2. The body should not (meaning shall not) touch the windshield metal ... meaning only the rubber seal should touch the cowl and the windshield posts SHOULD NOT touch the body where they penetrate to the frame; and,

3. Don't stress the glass by putting pressure on it from the installation of the posts ... use shims and or gently twist the brass posts so that they fit on the frame without imparting any pressure on the frame/glass. The ends of the posts tend to duck feet out as you look forward; not always matching up with the frame.

Here are the results so far ... PS

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db37b3127cceef749a2eca6d00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170516084727467.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Even this is not necessarily the final position since there is a little leeway in the mounting ... the frame has 1/2" openings and the windshield is drilled for 3/8" bolts. Therefore it seemed to me the best thing was to get the hole locations on the posts marked such that there was sufficient room for the holes ... For example here is a poor photo of the problem I initially had on the PS post.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db37b3127cceef74646bca5700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170516084730929.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

It is a hard to see but the left or bottom hole would only be incomplete going through the back of the windshield post.

DS

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db37b3127cceef74e059ca2700000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170516084726521.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

For me the most useful parameters seemed to be the distance from the hood edge to the rubber on the windshield and the distance from the top screw of the post to the rear of the door body side. I am worried that the distance from the first top screw to the back of the door is different by about 1/4".

As part of the iterative process of fitting the windshield I did goon up the DS holes in the body ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db37b3127cceef744e56ca7f00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170516084725379.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The inside of the body is almost touching the post so I will need to expand it a little while filling in the outside ... A LOT!

I have not actually pulled the windshield to drill the holes in the posts yet so if I am doing something way wrong please comment. The goal is to get the windshield finished on Wednesday.

[carlewms]

After about 5 hours of futzing with the variables ... and there are many we finally got the windshield installed.

Some highlights ... or low lights of the installation:

1. We had to expand the holes in the body considerably to get the right alignment of the windshield posts and get close to the proper alignment for the premium top ... We had to move them back to get proper alignment on the holes in the frame. I will have a little fiberglass work to close up the holes (or uses bigger pieces of aluminum).

2. With the exception of one nut on the upper bolt of the windshield post we used regular versus lock nuts (during the final install I will use some Locktite on these nuts).

3. At Craig's recommendation we made and installed thin plastic washers on the small chromed brass nuts that attach the windshield posts to the brass part on the side of the windshield. This allowed us to get the posts tight without filing off the screws. NOTE: I have ordered the SS inserts from Whitby for future installation ...

4. After test fitting the windshield we had to bend the lower part of the post slightly to make them parallel with the plate on the frame.

5. Last but not least we had to install shims between the posts and the frames. At the suggestion of EdwardB on the other forum, I purchased 1/8", 1/16" and 1/32" body shims to substitute for the washers ... making installation much easier.

Each installation will vary but we ended up with the following shim installation:

DS Upper 1/16" + 1/32"
DS Lower 1/8"

PS Upper 2 x 1/16"
PS Lower 1/8" +1/16"

Here is a photo of the type of shim used ... I purchased them at NAPA.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db36b3127cceef777985f24f00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170517202952783.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Here is the semi final installation of the windshield ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db36b3127cceef769075921f00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170517200739959.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Thanks to Craig for getting the Olde Goat's roadster to this next level.

Carl

[edwardb]

Looks good. The windshield installation can be a little tedious. Couple points FWIW. The screws on the side posts can't break the glass. This is a common misconception. The glass is on the other side of the metal channel of the side frames. The screws to be concerned about are the visor mounting screws. Those are the ones that can break the glass. For the side post screws, if too long they will hit the back wall of the side frame. Or, it's easy to strip the brass strip as you described. The Whitby SS strips are good improvement. I've used them on each of my builds. The will come threaded for 10-32 though. Not metric.

[carlewms]

EdwardB ... thanks for the rapid feedback. With respect to the Whitby SS strips when I ordered them they told me they come with the screws. If that is not the case I need to get them on order from M-C.

Again thanks ...

Carl

[edwardb]

With respect to the Whitby SS strips when I ordered them they told me they come with the screws. If that is not the case I need to get them on order from M-C.

Right. The strips come with the 10-32 mounting screws. But I've found them to be too short. Maybe you'll find they work. I replaced with McMaster 95145A243 and adjusted the length as needed.

[boat737]

I'll throw this into the mix.

I am in the process of fitting the windshield. The body is temporarily on, and I have drilled (and tapped) my 1/2" holes in the brass vertical end mounts. I have done some minor bending and twisting of the vertical mounts to get them as parallel as I can, considering the limited visibility with the body on. I will do the final "aligning" of the brass mounts after I remove the body in a month or so.

I have also installed the Whitby SS inserts. They do come with the 10-32 screws and tapped holes, but I am considering not using those screws.

During this initial and preliminary fitting of the windshield, I needed to mount, then take off the brass end supports, many times. Rather than screw in the Phillips screws each time, I had a bunch of 10-32 x 1 inch set screws handy. That way I could easily screw in the set screw by hand, then run a nut down, by hand. All very sturdy for fitting. I even went so far as to make some standoffs (about 1/2 or 3/8 inch long I think), that I tapered on one end and that fit nicely into the countersunk holes in the end support. Very fast on and off, and no chance of over tightening and little chance of cross threading with those set screws going in by hand. The three lower fasteners can stay in the windshield, but the top one is at an angle and had to be put in after the brass support is mated to the windshield.

The icing on the cake is they really don't look all that bad either, even with the extra long ones in there now. So....

I am now considering this process for the final mounting, especially since I will be using the ********** side mirror mounts. I won't have to size the screws for mirror mounts, or even the brass supports. I'll get some shorter set-screws, and just screw the set-screw in by hand, which will be all the way in until it snugs up to the inner windshield rail rim. No over tightening this way. And no way of having the screw too shallow either. Then a nut on top of that, just snugged up. I will need to get some countersunk washers, or make some to fit in the counter sunk cavity on the vertical mount. Also, I'll grind off the little dimple on the end of the set-screw so it's flat, and allow another 1/2 turn in the insert. Probably will add a dab of Blue Loctite for the set-screw in the insert.

The advantage is using every available thread to mount the windshield. And with only using 1 3/4 to 2 threads max, I'll take it.

[carlewms]

I have been pushing forward to get the items done so I can get the car ready for photos.

The lights have all been installed ...

Headlights were a bit more of PIA than I expected ... and the manual doesn't help a lot. Specifically:

1. I had to expand the hole in the plastic bucket for the wiring and use larger grommets ... my fat fingers just couldn't make the much smaller grommet work;

2. When attaching the bucket to the body the manual shows using only one screw (although the photos seemed to show more than one). I ended up using 4 of the 5 supplied;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db02b3127cceef7b0bf109d400000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170523222906703.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

3. The clip provided to keep the exterior ring or cap steady was easier to put on before installing the bucket;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db02b3127cceef7acf59295200000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170523222910316.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

4. I had previously modified the clips that hold the ring to the light as done by others before me. Before I install the lights for the final time ... I will use longer screws and some locktite to make sure they don't vibrate off;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db02b3127cceef7a935ca84900000030O29AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170523222910528.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D2/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

It is starting to look like a real car now ...

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db02b3127cceef7ac124292800000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170523222914316.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

The Rear lights ... pretty much as expected although I clocked them 90 deg so the lettering on the lenses is right side up. The rear lights are a pain to get tightened down ... You have to install the washers and nuts from under the car. I did remove the rear wheels to make it easier. If I can get away with it I will reinstall after painting before installing the body.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db02b3127cceef7a0146292a00000030O19AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170523222917430.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

[carlewms]

This is a catch up post on the doors ...

Here are the photos of the doors after a lot of work on the gaps and the intersections between the door tops and the body.

Passenger Side:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db07b3127cceef60dd4e13b600000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170527003004996.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

There must be a wide enough gap so that no part of the door touches the body when opening and closing ... also taking into account the thickness of the paint on both parts.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db07b3127cceef60cc20534800000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170527003004429.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Driver Side:

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db07b3127cceef611e19735400000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170527002958071.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

https://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a7db07b3127cceef606b5c92cf00000030O09AaOGbRo2bA9 vPhg/cC/f%3D0/ls%3D00006064438420170527003000627.JPG/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Carl

[AC Bill]

Carl, it's good that at this point you allowed for the thickness of the paint, in figuring out the door gaps. The hi-build primers will fill in those gaps as well. Same goes for the trunk lid, although there may be more adjustment available with the MK4 trunk hinges, than my MK 3.1 had.

[carlewms]

Bill,

Thanks ... I think my trunk might be ok but I definitely need to work on the gaps for the hood (way to tight right now it seems).

Carl

[CraigS]

I'll throw this into the mix.

I am in the process of fitting the windshield. The body is temporarily on, and I have drilled (and tapped) my 1/2" holes in the brass vertical end mounts. I have done some minor bending and twisting of the vertical mounts to get them as parallel as I can, considering the limited visibility with the body on. I will do the final "aligning" of the brass mounts after I remove the body in a month or so....

Hi boat. When I was working w/ Carl, we laid the windshield across a table front side upward. As we looked at twisting the brackets I was looking down into the frame thought the slots in the body. As best as we could tell, the mounting surfaces on the frame are parallel w/ the car's centerline. So, I gave the brackets a twist and then we screwed them back onto the windshield. We looked at the lower portion and decided that if they were both vertical, that meant they were parallel w/ each other, and so would be parallel w/ the mount surfaces on the frame. I had been sweating this but it actually turned out to be pretty simple. As I remember, one bracket was good the first time and one needed a bit more twist. good luck w/ yours.

[carlewms]

Here is a video update after mocking up most of the components on the body ... so I can take photos today to send to DMV and get this thing road legal ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAaEUn6KHvY

[jrcuz]

Mighty FINE Carl!
JR

[carlewms]

1. The ********** overriders are chromed brass with the attachment bosses deep in the overrider whereas the FFR version is SS and has a plate across the back of the overrider.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93070539971/medium/1496586346/enhance

If they were SS i thought I could get a plate added to the backs like the FFR versions ...

2. The holes in the ********** overriders is 3/8"-16 and the bolts provided by 7/16"-14. Changing the rear ones to 3/8"-16 would be possible but requires taking the gas tank off to get to the ends. The front could be changed a little easier but still leaves other issues to resolve (if I had caught this earlier in the build the solution would have been a lot easier);

3. The front overriders need to be mounted at an angle (about 7% off the vertical). The solution others have used is to bend the bolt after installation which is not appealing to me at all;

4. The brackets are actually fence post brackets to use on a gate where a two by four is inserted in the bracket to secure the gate but the legs are too long;

https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93069294049/medium/1496500340/enhance

Potential Solutions:

1. Easiest: Say to hell with the over riders and just mount the quick jacks (which I do have)

2. Buy the FFR versions which are currently not in stock and shim to get the correct angle on the front over riders;

3. Look at the Superformance and ERA versions to see if they might work; and,

4. Get brackets made that keep all the hardware inside the over riders (I initially tried this but my limited skills and equipment made it hard to get the 1/8" aluminum bent properly) and use acorn nuts on the visible parts.

Any additional thoughts ...

[Jeff Kleiner]

What is the center to center dimension of the overriders? What is the dimension of the FFR mounts and body? Doubt they match but it would be simple enough to redrill the chassis plates to match the bumpers, fill the body holes as needed then install them using the full length "through the body" tubes and grommets.

Jeff

[carlewms]

Jeff,

The spacing is the same 2.25"; the only difference is the diameter and thread of the bolts. ********** just supplies the overriders no hardware provided.

I have your mod on the rear quick jack bolts and tried to find a coupler that took a 7/16"-14 on one end and a 3/8"-14 on the other but could not locate a source.

[2bking]

Perhaps the 3/8-14 to 7/16-14 adapter Jeff mentioned would fix the problem. It would screw into the over rider and the 7/6-14 blot would screw into it. Pm me if that looks like a fix and I'll make for you.

[carlewms]

Perhaps the 3/8-14 to 7/16-14 adapter Jeff mentioned would fix the problem. It would screw into the over rider and the 7/6-14 blot would screw into it. Pm me if that looks like a fix and I'll make for you.

King,

Thanks ... I will pm you by the morning. If I understand what you all are proposing is that I would keep all the FFR hardware and just add the adapter to connect to the ********** overriders.

Since I have the Kleiner mod on the rear ... I am trying to get my head (a bit more muddled than normal) how you would tighten the 7/16-14 at the threaded standoff inside the trunk. I guess I would hold the threaded still with two nuts locked together and then turn the standoff to tighten it up against the aluminum

I will head out to the garage and take a photo and edit this post with it.

Thanks,

Carl

[carlewms]

Which are preferred?

[Jeff Kleiner]

Raydots with Convex or Without Convex Mirrors
Which are preferred?

Neither! Well, at least not straight out of the box. I used Raydots and mounts from Finish line with some mods.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_1290.jpg

I started with the flat lens for the driver's side and another with convex for the passenger side. Couldn't see for squat! Took the mirrors apart and removed the glass lenses then replaced them with some cheap stick on convex ones from Pep Boys or Autozone---note that these are not stuck on and actually go under the bezel in place of the originals. What a difference!

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_1289.jpg

Here is the view from the driver's seat. Yeah, it has that "objects in mirror may be closer than they appear" thing going on but what's important is that you can tell when something is there and then pinpoint EXACTLY where with a quick glance if need be.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_1293.jpg

On the passenger side visibility was compromised a bit by the windshield post and wind wing. Although I could see objects it just wasn't positioned for a quick look so I extended it out about 2" and now it is much better. I know this won't be for everybody for aesthetic reasons but I can live with it and the clearer field of vision it provides. Chalk one up for "form follows function"!

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_1291.jpg

In addition to having functional mirrors and using them something I've found in ten years of driving the roadster is that I am more conscious of where traffic I've passed is, and for longer, than when I'm in my daily drivers. People tend to hang out on our rear corners taking photos and video---train yourself to watch out for them!

Jeff

[CraigS]

If you make up some mount plates like Jeff's this opens up a world of motorcycle mirrors. Most all of them have a threaded stud at the mount end.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/craig-s/20170606_072633_zps07dbekmg.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/craig-s/20170606_072649_zpsrtvpmcob.jpg

[2bking]

I think I used the same mirrors as CraigS just mounted them a little different. They cost about $30 for the pair from Amazon.
68666 68667 68668

[carlewms]

Thanks all for the ideas ... I ended up going with the Raydots from ********** ... I have not mounted them yet.

Jeff: I assume you sourced a 2.5" carriage bolt to extend the PS. Is this correct? I have aluminum tubing but need to purchase the longer carriage bolts.

I also plan on not mounting the plates at the rear of the windshield post to avoid the brass insert.

Carl

[Jeff Kleiner]

Jeff: I assume you sourced a 2.5" carriage bolt to extend the PS. Is this correct? I have aluminum tubing but need to purchase the longer carriage bolts.

I also plan on not mounting the plates at the rear of the windshield post to avoid the brass insert.

Carl

It's been 9 years or more so the memory is foggy but yeah, I probably just used a longer carriage bolt. If you look at the photos you'll see that rather than using the windshield mounting screw locations I drilled the post and attached the plates with chrome buttonheads and acorns.

Jeff

[carlewms]

After getting all the photos made for the DMV and the paperwork almost ready ...

My poorly executed and overly complicated means to attach the overriders looked like crap.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93069294184/medium/1496500353/enhance

One of the guys over on the FFR forums (King) offered to machine me some brackets specifically designed to: 1) Convert from the 3/8" screw on the ********** overrider to the 7/16" hardware provided in the kit. 2) Mount the front overriders to be parallel with the angle of the cowl.

Here is the version ... made from Stainless Steel. This one happens to be for the rear overriders.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93161784941/medium/1498577647/enhance

The 3/8" side is attached to the overrider using 3/8-14 x 1/2" screws with lock washers. In final assembly I will use a little locket.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93161784981/medium/1498577651/enhance

Here is what they look like on the rear of the car BEFORE installing the ********** rubber bushings and SS tubing.

https://im1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93161784929/medium/1498577643/enhance

Thanks to King for helping me out ...

Carl

[boat737]

Which are preferred?

For your Raydot/********** mount mirrors, check out what Marcello did. I did virtually the same thing. The Delrin extender can be made any length. I used a coupling nut on the inside of it.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?23760-Please-graduate-F5R7841-15YR-Anniversary-Mk4 Post 12.

[carlewms]

Boat,

Sorry for the very late reply ... some health issues have kept me sidelined for the last three weeks.

I like the look and that shine of it ... did you do it for both sides?

Right now I have a lot of aluminum tubing of various different diameters but don't have the delrin so I may need to try the tubing first.

Again,

Thanks.

[carlewms]

After almost a month I finally got back on the build ... feels great. After the infected part of my right lung was removed I feel a whole lot better; ready to get re done now.

Thanks to EdwardB over on the Factory Five Forum for these modifications/improvements.

I had initially installed the windshield wiper wheel boxes on the cowl using the hardware provided by FFR including the rubber hose gasket that goes between the wheel box and the body cowl. The one on the left on the photo.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93239090322/medium/1501148050/enhance

I also had to make some "adjustments" to one of the wheel boxes

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93239090209/medium/1501148046/enhance

As others have found ... these just don't do the job adequately. EdwardB's method of substituting 3/4" aluminum square tube for the rubber seemed to be my best option. Initially I cut the tube to match the angle in the rubber gasket; which turned out to be the wrong thing to do. The original cut is to the right in the above photo.

After attempting to reassemble the wheelbox with the newly fabricated gasket, I found that the angle of the cut taken from the rubber gasket was way off compared to the angle on the chrome base.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93239090332/medium/1501148050/enhance

After grinding the 3/4" to the correct angle ... here is how all the parts fit together. The red rectangle represents the fiberglass cowl.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93239090213/medium/1501148046/enhance

After installation the only issue appears to be the gaskets under the chrome base. I could not get them positioned so the gasket was centered under the base on the windshield side.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93239090561/medium/1501148059/enhance

I must be doing something wrong in the assembly or I need to make larger gaskets ... Thoughts?

A word of caution; it is very easy to get the ferrule nut cross threaded on the aluminum "snout" of the wheel box. That end of the wheel box is aluminum and very easy to cross thread (at least for this Defective End User).

Another EdwardB modification is bending the arms of the windshield wipers so the blades are lower on and parallel to the bottom of the windshield when in the "park" position.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93239090249/medium/1501148046/enhance

Before bending they stick up about 30 degrees from horizontal. The DS could be bent as is but a propane torch was used to heat up the PS to the proper bend without distortion or, even worse, breaking. I think this looks a lot better.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93239090232/medium/1501148046/enhance

[edwardb]

Nice work and glad my build threads helped. For the spacer, definitely use the chrome bezel piece to set the angle of the spacer. For the gaskets, I too have found the fit to be inconsistent. First two I built I gave up and made my own. The Anniversary build the gaskets fit pretty well, so I used the supplied ones. I think they were from a different supplier as all the parts were a little different than before. But I really don't know. It's easy enough to make new ones out of flat neoprene. Start with an oversize piece. Use the existing gasket to make the oval hole. Assemble the wheelbox, spacer, oversize gasket, bezel and nut onto the body. Then trace around the bezel onto the gasket material. Cut to that line and you'll have a good fitting gasket. :cool:

I see you have the ********** wiper arms. I too switched to those on the Anniversary build. The ones from FF just didn't fit well and were hard to get on and off. The wedge lock on the ********** wipers works well. Maybe you know this, but the little tab where the solid metal piece comes out of the base part of the arms gets rotated to lock the length of the arms once you have them where you want.

[boat737]

Boat,

Sorry for the very late reply ... some health issues have kept me sidelined for the last three weeks.

I like the look and that shine of it ... did you do it for both sides?

Right now I have a lot of aluminum tubing of various different diameters but don't have the delrin so I may need to try the tubing first.

Again,

Thanks.

Hi Carl. I'm with you on the health thing. Got knocked for a loop last month myself. Have had to re-vamp my whole life. But with all my changes, I'm doing great and hoping to get back to work (job) in a month or so.

Right now, I've made up a Delrin spacer (with the coupling nut inside) for both sides. The driver side is a bit shorter at 1 inch, and the passenger side at about 1 1/2 inches, but I did cut a third one at 2 inches if I need it. It still looks as if I will need to put a bend in at least the passenger side bracket to get the RayDot mirror pointing correctly. I figure 15 or 20 degree bend ought to do it, I just have to get over to a friends shop that has a break (or is that brake?) that can bend that little 1/4 inch thick bracket. I'm not at that point in the build quite yet where the windshield is on the car so it's all speculation, guessing and standing back and hemming and hawing. After seeing Marcelo's (CDXXVII) I'm sure it will be perfect.

[AC Bill]

I could never get the supplied gaskets to work with the wiper post base bezel. Very poorly designed.
Try as I might, I still had issues with the cable skipping the gear on one side, and the wiper would go all wonky. After painting, I never bothered to re-install the arms.

I'm not saying I will never get caught in the rain, but I have managed so far, in almost 6000 miles of cruising..lol

[carlewms]

I think I found out about the tabs on ********** arms by accident but thanks for reminding me.

I have some neoprene so I will make them over when I pull them off in preparation for painting ... which I hope will be soon.

Carl

[carlewms]

Hi Carl. I'm with you on the health thing. Got knocked for a loop last month myself. Have had to re-vamp my whole life. But with all my changes, I'm doing great and hoping to get back to work (job) in a month or so.

Right now, I've made up a Delrin spacer (with the coupling nut inside) for both sides. The driver side is a bit shorter at 1 inch, and the passenger side at about 1 1/2 inches, but I did cut a third one at 2 inches if I need it. It still looks as if I will need to put a bend in at least the passenger side bracket to get the RayDot mirror pointing correctly. I figure 15 or 20 degree bend ought to do it, I just have to get over to a friends shop that has a break (or is that brake?) that can bend that little 1/4 inch thick bracket. I'm not at that point in the build quite yet where the windshield is on the car so it's all speculation, guessing and standing back and hemming and hawing. After seeing Marcelo's (CDXXVII) I'm sure it will be perfect.

Thanks ... I will check it out ... It these kinds of detail stuff that are easier to do now.

[carlewms]

As background ... I had a challenge where 1) the hardware provide by FFR was 7/16"-14 while the ********** Overiders were designed for 3/8"-16 hardware; 2) I had already installed the FFR hardware on the rear and the tank was already installed; and 1/2 full of gas; 3) I wanted to make sure the front overriders were installed parallel to the face of the radiator opening; and, 4) my first solution looked like crap.

Thanks to Craig S and King over on the FFR forums here is the resulting solution

Front Overriders:

Here is the final hardware for mounting to the front frame.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93269934826/medium/1501845079/enhance

The only real PIA is getting to the heads of the bolts inside the overriders but a claw foot open end wrench solved that problem.

This is how the King 7/16" to 3/8" brackets were attached to the overriders.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93273769858/medium/1501918920/enhance

For the front overriders ONLY ... the brackets were heated and bent to approximate about 7 deg from vertical. To achieve the desired angle I cut the upper ********** SS sleeve to get the distance I thought look right from the face of the radiator opening to the back of the overrider. The lower ********** SS sleeve was then sized to achieve the angle.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93269934836/medium/1501845080/enhance

Here are the results ...

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93269934803/medium/1501845074/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93269934799/medium/1501845077/enhance

My thanks to CraigS and King ... King thanks for making the excellent brackets.

Thoughts ...

Rear Overriders in the Next Post ...

[carlewms]

The installation of the rear ********** Overriders was easier than the front ones ...

I had already installed the Kleiner modification to allow installing the hardware without lowering the gas tank. Here is the hardware for the rear.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93269934779/medium/1501845072/enhance

The results ....

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93269934768/medium/1501845068/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93269934764/medium/1501845068/enhance

Do you think this will work long term?

[CraigS]

Looking great Carl!!!!!!

[srobinsonx2]

Man Carlewms. I like the narrated pictures. The rest of us are going to have to step up our game on thread details. NICE WORK.

[carlewms]

Man Carlewms. I like the narrated pictures. The rest of us are going to have to step up our game on thread details. NICE WORK.

Thanks ... I hope they are useful to those that are still in the process of building ... or considering it. I am convinced that anyone can build one of these if they have the desire ... because the expertise is all around to assist in getting er done.

[carlewms]

Now that the body was in position I cut the holes for the Breeze Driver's Side SS Roll Bar.

Why Breeze vice the one that comes from FFR? The FFR hoops are "too" tall and are not raked back in my humble opinion; the Breeze looks a lot better.

Since I didn't have the holes cut by FFR prior to delivery I had to do it myself...and the process was just a little crazy.

The light from a strong flashlight can be seen through the fiberglass so I inserted a light into the frame mounts for the roll bar and used felt tipped pen to mark the spot for the hole on the fiberglass. A 2" diameter hole saw was used to cut the first hole.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93284014766/medium/1502115389/enhance

Once the inside leg was located the outer leg hole was marked at the base of the outside leg of the Breeze hoop parallel to the flat section of the rear cowl.

Again used the 2" holes saw to cut the hole for the outside leg of the hoop and then the hoop lowered on to the frame tubes.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93284014060/medium/1502115384/enhance

Now for the trickier part ... locating and cutting the oval for the rear leg of the roll bar. Broke out the trusty flashlight again ...

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93284014669/medium/1502115390/enhance

I focused the flashlight to maximize the beam and marked the location with the marker. The cut was made with the 2" hole saw and then ovaled out with a grinding wheel and rasp.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93284014643/medium/1502115390/enhance

After fiddling with the moving parts here is the semi-final fitment of the roll bar. The final fitment will have to wait until the body is off for painting to get access for mounting and drilling the stub tubes.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93284012655/medium/1502115374/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93284011460/medium/1502115366/enhance

Once I had in position I marked the tube in the locations where it emerges from the body to make off body fitting easier.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93284013127/medium/1502115379/enhance

Any suggestions or comments are always appreciated! Thanks to Mark and Breeze for an excellent product.

[AC Bill]

Kudo's Carl... Your a brave fellow cutting into the body like that..
It turned out just as the Dr. ordered though, so that should be a relief. I know I would be holding my breath the whole time..

You could find the body won't go back on exactly, as it is now, try as you might. You may find that allowing a little more clearance at the tight spots, now, will be less trouble then after the body is painted, and back on, and your trying to fit the roll bars. BUT...Depending on the bezels used, you may find one of the bezel retaining screw holes, misses the body. It just hangs in space..If you run into that, I can make a suggestion, as I had that happen.

[carlewms]

Bill,

Thanks ... each time I cut or drill into the body I think my blood pressure goes up a bit. I have gotten more proficient on fiberglass repair for some mistakes previously made so if I have to do some repairs ... so be it.

I like your the idea of you posted on the other forum ... In fact I am checking with Russ Thompson who makes bezels if he makes them for the larger diameter Breeze roll bar.

Thanks,

Carl

[boat737]

Bill,

Thanks ... each time I cut or drill into the body I think my blood pressure goes up a bit. I have gotten more proficient on fiberglass repair for some mistakes previously made so if I have to do some repairs ... so be it.

I like your the idea of you posted on the other forum ... In fact I am checking with Russ Thompson who makes bezels if he makes them for the larger diameter Breeze roll bar.

Thanks,

Carl

I got my Breeze roll bar trim rings from Mike Everson/replicaparts.com http://replicaparts.com/roll%20bar%20trim%20ring%20page.htm

[carlewms]

After going as far as I could with the wiring of the trunk I decided to focus on getting the rest of the heater vent tubes mocked up.

The heater box and all engine compartment components have already been installed .... a long time ago! The vent tubes to the foot box vents are also installed. What remains are the vent tubes to the rear facing vents and the defroster/demister for the windshield.

Before installing these I needed to figure out how to connect the "Y" to the NCR fiberglass defroster plenum through the 2" blasted gate valve used to control airflow to the plenum.

Some requirements I set for the install:

1. It had to be removable without cutting the vent tube or the plenum;
2. Maximize flow to the windshield area right in front of the driver; and,
3. The amount of air going to the defroster needed to be controlled.

The solution and mock up ...

1. Determined the location for the plenum and blast gate;
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93309158743/medium/1502548386/enhance
2. Drilled a 2.5" hole with a hole saw in the plenum;
3. Drilled a hole to accept the boss on the 2" blast gate valve;
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93305282133/medium/1502463904/enhance
4. Fabricate a 1/8" thick rubber gasket to seal off the area between the blast gate and the bottom of the plenum;
5. Fabricate 3 brackets from sheet metal to attach the blast gate to the plenum;
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93305282153/medium/1502463902/enhance
6. Drill out the brackets to use the existing hardware on the blast gate and #10-24 machine screws and Nyloc nuts for the plenum;
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93305282159/medium/1502463902/enhance
7. Installed the assembled blast gate on the plenum making sure the that the boss on the blast gate is indexed to the small hole on the plenum;
8. A PVC "T" was painted and prepped to divert air to the defroster plenum;
9. The vent tubes are then attached to the "T".
https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93309093154/medium/1502547294/enhance

[carlewms]

In searching the forums I did not find much on exactly how to install this rod ... CCSRC had a post on the installation which helped guide me ...

The ********** Trunk Prop Rod is mocked up ... finally.

Borrowing on the work of others on the forum ... with a few modifications of my own. The biggest modification was to move the rod farther away from the trunk lip and mount the bottom bracket so that it would not interfere with the Breeze "D" trunk seal.

Using some scrap 1.5" x 1.5" x 1/8" angle aluminum bracket was fabricated to accept the rod's bracket on the inboard side, mount to the trunk lip and provide a location for the brace to the side of the trunk.

A brace was fashioned from some spare 1/2" aluminum tubing. The ends were flattened out and drilled for #10 - 24 x 1/2" bolt on the top and 3/16" rivet on the bottom.

The base of the upper support is a 1" x 2.5" x 1/4" aluminum block shaped to fit along side the "rib" on the trunk lid. Two #10-24 3/4" countersunk screws will be installed on the back (or top) of the block before it's secured to the lid with HSRF.

All the other hardware used are SS #10-24 1/2" bolts, Nyloc nuts and SS washers.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93313129641/medium/1502616437/enhance

After getting all the mounting hardware together I needed to position the lower and upper mounts so the Prop Rod would fully open the lid and clear the Breeze seal installed on the trunk lip.

The final position of the REAR of the mounts was 7" from the trunk edge on the body and 16 3/4" on the lid. After several tries I finally came to the realization that the darn thing could be in multiple possible positions as long as, with the trunk lid closed, no interference occurred with the body and the lid. The closer to the front; the higher the lid will open limited by the hinges. For this Prop Rod you do need to raise the trunk lid slightly to release the latch on the rod.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93313129630/medium/1502616435/enhance

The lower end of the Prop Rod is attached to bracket that is mounted on the edge or lip of the trunk and supported by a brace attached to the side of the inner trunk wall.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93313129642/medium/1502616437/enhance

The upper end is attached to a block "glued" to the trunk lid just inside the "rib".

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93313129643/medium/1502616437/enhance

The HSRF will be done after the body is removed for painting and the final installation after the final body installation.

Thoughts ...

Carl

[carlewms]

Here is a photo of the bracket and brace detail I posted over on the FFR forums in response to some additional questions ...

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93313384388/medium/1502628567/enhance

The blue rectangles represent the walls ...

Carl

[boat737]

Hi Carl. Looking at your bracing from the hinge bracket to the side vertical trunk wall, that setup may present a problem. Even though the body seems to be fixed on the chassis and aluminum panels, I believe it still "floats" on the rubber pieces like grommets (bumper mounts) and bulb seal. There is going to be some movement between the body and the chassis, so I think that solid mount will cause a stress-riser on the fiberglass trunk edge lip. Or it may start to work harden the aluminum panel at the bottom end, and the aluminum panel will start to crack and fail. Things like fasteners coming loose, or fiberglass flexing and causing cracks in the fiberglass and paint. Even if the brace is cushioned with rubber mounts, I think that still may be a problem.

Consider adding a layer or two of fiberglass cloth along that edge of the trunk on the underneath side, where the hinge bracket attaches, to just stiffen up the body along that line. Unless the trunk lid is open during a hurricane, or you drive 100 mph with the trunk full open, that will probably be good enough. Just my thoughts. I'm no expert in this area, but I do know that fiberglass likes to be able to move a bit, and when you try to fix it in place it's not happy. At least in the boats that I've played with.

Maybe consider adding a layer of fiberglass on the trunk lid as well, where the upper bracket attaches. You could even glass in a small, thin pad with couple of studs for the bracket mount.

[carlewms]

Boat,

Thanks ... I had planned on strengthening under the trunk lip with the HSRF but I like your suggestion to increase the strength with some fiberglass cloth.

On the upper connection ... I had planned on countersinking the block on the side between lid and the block so that two #10 24 studs appeared under the block to attach the bracket from the prop rod. Here is a close up photo of what I had planned.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93313129629/medium/1502616435/enhance

I put a layer of fiberglass over the block or pad when I put it on.

Do you think this will work?

Carl

[boat737]

As I said, I'm no expert on this. But here is what I did for my side louvers and a few spots on the body underside to anchor electrical wire looms. A simple adhesive mount stud, HSRF to the fiberglass, and a piece of fiberglass cloth over the base. Even though there is virtually no weight on any of these studs, I just wasn't 100% confident that only the HSRF would be good enough over years of vibrations and bouncing around to continue to hold. I suppose if I could test it for 15 or 20 years, I'd have more faith that they would hold up. So I just placed a piece of fiberglass over them, and resin'd them down.

Looking at that 1/4" or 3/8" thick aluminum mount (in you picture above), I'm thinking that the fiberglass trunk lid will want to flex at the edges of the aluminum. Maybe I'm overly suspicious, but I'm thinking of maybe trying to utilize that reinforcement ridge that runs abeam your aluminum bracket mount somehow instead of that mount base. Or if you taper down the edges of the aluminum mount so there is no hard edge to it, rather a very thin wedge to a point so that is had a tiny bit of give to it.

[carlewms]

Boat,

Thanks ... I have a bunch of those adhesive mount studs for the side louvers and the installation of my defroster plenum.

There are some posters over on the other forum that have not had luck with "gluing" with HSRF alone so I think your idea of laying a piece of fiberglass over the studs is an excellent one and I will adopt it.

On the upper bracket mount ... Edward B posted another solution on my thread on the other forum. Here it is and it would eliminate the concerns about flex cracks.

"Take a look at how I attached the top of the prop rod to the trunk lid. I angled the prop rod just slightly and attached to the rib on the underside of the lid. It wasn't too hard to fish a threaded plate through the license plate wire access hole and use HSRF to glue it in place. Makes a very strong connection and looks nice and clean.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Update%2012102016/IMG_4446_zpskyd1daib.jpg

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Update%2012102016/IMG_4456_zps3bc9r3en.jpg

He says he has driven about 1000 miles with no issues.

Carl

PS Love the idea for using the studs to mount clips to hold the wiring in place. I was trying to figure a way to do this ... and you just provided. THANKS MUCHO

[alv69]

As I said, I'm no expert on this. But here is what I did for my side louvers and a few spots on the body underside to anchor electrical wire looms. A simple adhesive mount stud, HSRF to the fiberglass, and a piece of fiberglass cloth over the base. Even though there is virtually no weight on any of these studs, I just wasn't 100% confident that only the HSRF would be good enough over years of vibrations and bouncing around to continue to hold. I suppose if I could test it for 15 or 20 years, I'd have more faith that they would hold up. So I just placed a piece of fiberglass over them, and resin'd them down.

Looking at that 1/4" or 3/8" thick aluminum mount (in you picture above), I'm thinking that the fiberglass trunk lid will want to flex at the edges of the aluminum. Maybe I'm overly suspicious, but I'm thinking of maybe trying to utilize that reinforcement ridge that runs abeam your aluminum bracket mount somehow instead of that mount base. Or if you taper down the edges of the aluminum mount so there is no hard edge to it, rather a very thin wedge to a point so that is had a tiny bit of give to it.
on my side louvers I used industrial strength Velcro holds up well and very difficult to pull off, but can be pulled off if needed.

[boat737]

Boat,

Thanks ... I have a bunch of those adhesive mount studs for the side louvers and the installation of my defroster plenum.

There are some posters over on the other forum that have not had luck with "gluing" with HSRF alone so I think your idea of laying a piece of fiberglass over the studs is an excellent one and I will adopt it.

On the upper bracket mount ... Edward B posted another solution on my thread on the other forum. Here it is and it would eliminate the concerns about flex cracks.

"Take a look at how I attached the top of the prop rod to the trunk lid. I angled the prop rod just slightly and attached to the rib on the underside of the lid. It wasn't too hard to fish a threaded plate through the license plate wire access hole and use HSRF to glue it in place. Makes a very strong connection and looks nice and clean."


He says he has driven about 1000 miles with no issues.

Carl

PS Love the idea for using the studs to mount clips to hold the wiring in place. I was trying to figure a way to do this ... and you just provided. THANKS MUCHO

EdwardB (Paul) is the man. I like that he uses that reinforcement area on the trunk lid for the bracket mount. That should work perfect. If I may add a suggestion, file a small chamfer around the mating edge of the bracket and the inner threaded mount. Probably isn't necessary if is is sitting on a bed of HSRF, but a very small relief around the edge of that metal piece can't hurt.

[carlewms]

Boat,

More information from EdwardB that I am going to implement ... He is really brilliant

I noticed there was a bolt and nut on the end of the prop rod and asked about it since the rivet on my lower mount seemed a bit weak ...

"I drilled out the rivets and replaced with shoulder bolts. Part number 94035A176 from McMaster. First because I turned the top bracket around. But then I went ahead and did both because they looked better and seemed stronger than the original rivets. The nut you see was during mockup. Final assembly I used a nylon-insert lock nut."

FBI ... "Freakin Brillant Idea" ... this will allow me to also put the upper bracket under the rib a lot easier.

Carl

[edwardb]

Glad you're liking some of the ideas I've posted. :o But full disclosure, flipping that upper bracket around I can't take credit for. Saw that on another thread sometime back that detailed mounting the ********** prop rod. Sharing ideas and picking off the ones you like for your own build is a great part of this community.

Saw the comment about some people not having luck with using HSRF alone for bonding. Hasn't been my experience, and I don't recall seeing that. Regardless, adding the glass cloth certainly doesn't hurt. But properly installed I'll bet you could break that stud off the perforated base before the HSRF lets go. One of the keys (and maybe why reports of letting go?) is to get the surface properly roughed up. Many adhesives have trouble adhering to a shiny/glossy surface. I use 30 grit paper to prepare the surface, and then clean with lacquer thinner. Gives the HSRF a really solid bond. BTW, since you mention using them for things other than just the louvers, highly recommend that you consider using a couple for the rear splash guards. Instead of using a through-bolt onto the outside of the body. Like this picture from my last build. You can see how the glass is roughed up in this pic too.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Update%2008052016/IMG_0477_zpsolpjv6vk.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%2020th%20Anniversary%20Mark%204%20R oadster/Update%2008052016/IMG_0477_zpsolpjv6vk.jpg.html)

[boat737]

As I said, EdwardB is the man. Thank you for all your detailed posts and PM help. I've done a few of my "own ideas" on the build, but by far a lot more ideas from you good folks that share the wealth here. Sorry Carl to interrupt your thread, now back to your regularly scheduled build. Keep up the good work.

[AC Bill]

" It wasn't too hard to fish a threaded plate through the license plate wire access hole and use HSRF to glue it in place. Makes a very strong connection and looks nice and clean.


I'm a little confused about this statement Of Edwards. Could this be explained in better detail please.

[carlewms]

Bill,

Funny you should ask ... I am trying to fish it through today ... I am checking his original thread. If I cannot find it there here is what I will try.

I plan on drilling the two holes then run the a string through each hole over to the opening to pull the plate over to the rib. I will squeeze either paste some HSRF on the plate or squeeze some through the holes. Before the HSRF hardens I will run the bolts through the holes to clear any HSRF.

We will see if this works ....

[carlewms]

Bill,

My grand experiment did not work ... I could get the backing plate in position with HSRF on it fine.

I held it in place with the string until I thought (stress thought) it hardened enough so that I could clean out the holes and run the bolts to let it cure. That is where the plan fell apart. I either did not wait long enough for the HSRF to cure or it wasn't enough to hold it because as I cleaned out the holes the plate came loose.

Edit: In the meantime EdwardB posted the method he used to get the backing plate in position on the other forum. Here it is:

"There's just one piece to fish through. The nut plate shown in the first picture. I used a piece of 1/16-inch piano wire with some double back tape wrapped around the end to temporarily hold the nut plate. Any kind of relatively stiff wire could be used. Then fished this through the trunk license plate access opening into position over the already drilled holes. Took a few times practicing (without HSRF!) and getting the right bend on the wire. But not too hard. Once over the holes, used some machine screws to pull into place while the HSRF set up. Then pulled off the wire."

Carl

[carlewms]

Over the weekend I completed the mock up of all the fittings that go on the trunk lid:

Trunk License Plate Access Cover:

The kit does not come with a cover for the access hole for the license plate light so I made a template from a file folder and cut out the cover from left over aluminum. This photo is after drilling the holes and grinding out for the trunk light switch.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93351630575/medium/1503397800/enhance

The cover was roughly cut and then trimmed, ground and sanded to fit in the recess of the access. With the help of a little heat the aluminum was bent to the curvature of the opening.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93349433302/medium/1503345378/enhance

Trunk Light:

The light is designed to be recessed into the aluminum so a hole was cut out and four holes drilled to support the light. Because I wanted to be able to shut the light off with the trunk open a toggle switch was added to the circuit and mounted between the light and the handle.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93349433349/medium/1503345374/enhance

In hindsight I wish I had looked a little harder to find a round light which would have looked better; this one does put plenty of light out.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93349433341/medium/1503345372/enhance

The light is controlled via a mercury type tilt switch which provides an input to the InfinityBox system. The power comes from the rear POWERCELL mounted in the trunk. Power and grounds for the lights are routed through a 3 pin weather pack which allows the trunk to be removed with all wiring installed (that is after its painted and reassembled).

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93349433350/medium/1503345375/enhance

[carlewms]

After getting information from EdwardB (Paul) I stole his idea for mounting the upper ********** Trunk Prop Rod. Using a coat hangar wire and double sided tape I managed to get the 1/4" aluminum backing plate to the right position on the DS rib of the trunk lid.

Instead of pulling the part back out a slopping on the HSRF I decided just to "inject" the HSRF between the fiberglass and the plate.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93365797592/medium/1503749312/enhance

Once primed and painted this will be a much cleaner installation than the one i previously planned.

Carl

[carlewms]

The last few weeks have been focused on getting ready for painting ....

Essentially I am converting the three car garage into a large paint booth so that I can paint the body, doors, hood and trunk lid. One of the fellows srobinsonx2 over on the Factory Five Forum has just completed painting his roadster and has done an excellent job documenting the entire process including documenting the advice of two of the premier painters ... Jeff Miller and Jeff Kleiner ... or Jeffs Squared!. I have made a few modifications ... but not many ... to their recommendations.

I have also started gathering all the consumables for the paint job ...

Body Buck: The original dolly was modified ... extended to 96" and the casters replaced with lockable wheels. The forms that support the body at both ends were fabricated and a "reverse" version cut. This was all driven by my experience earlier in the build trying to work on the underside of the body ... it was unstable on the older version of the dolly.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93410657487/medium/1504814664/enhance

After completeing the work on the underside of the body ends or forms (I obviously don't know what to call them) will be removed and the traditional FFR versions will be installed so the body can be mounted right side up.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93410656598/medium/1504814772/enhance

I understand that I can trim off part ends of these to allow easier access when painting ....

Jeffs Squared both recommend (which means I shall) that the body, hood, doors and trunk lid be painted in the same orientation they fit on the frame. Jeff Kleiner provided information on the fixtures he used to achieve that goal without having to use the frame.

Doors: The fixture is fabricated to allow the doors to be suppprted by the top two hinge bolts and gives access to both sides of the door for painting. My modifications included: 1. Using 3/8"-16 Hardware to install the casters and the upright to the base (allows me to take it apart for storage and transport (BTW the bolts on the door are 3/8"-16 so all the gphardware is common); and, 2. Lockable wheel casters where installed to make the thing easier pro move around.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93410657110/medium/1504814776/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93410656538/medium/1504814772/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93410656673/medium/1504814657/enhance

The hood and trunk lid are set up pretty much the same. They are both designed so you can flip ypthe over to paint the underside of the two parts. A couple of things I learned the hard way ... 1. make sure the front base is wide enough; and, 2. The legs tall enough to allow the parts to be rotated.

The bases were constructed with some rough scrap lumber ... 2"x 4" for the base and 1"x 4" for the legs. The rods were tubes I had around the shop or porch asked dowl from the local HW store. The eye bolts were 1/4"-20 5".1/4" - 20 all thread was used for other supports as well as one section of 3/8"-16 all thread for the rear of the hood.

Hood: The only additional materials for the hood was two small pieces of 3/4" square tube drilled for the 1/4" on the short side and for two 3/16" rivets on the longer side.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93410657388/medium/1504814778/enhance

Trunk Lid: The rear base was mounted through the license plate hole and bent to provide vertices support.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93410658475/medium/1504814671/enhance

Per one of the Jeffs Squared ... I covered the table and base with a painter's drape (the baby blue stuff in the photo).that has plastic on one side and absorbable material on the other ... with the latter on the side up. If the plastic side is up the paint that dries on the surface can flake off and become airborne during subsequent spraying.

The next step is rearranging the garage so that I can have plenty of room to get around the parts and can cmplete each coat without having to move them around.

Again ... the best first time painters thread I have seen so far on these forums is srobinsonx2 on this forum. Thanks to him, Jeff M. and Jeff K.

Carl

[Jeff Kleiner]

Man Carl, I really screwed up... I was in Gainesville all last week and should have got ahold of you and come for a visit. Darn....

You mentioned trimming back the buck. Something like this will give you better access for shooting around the wheel openings:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73399&d=1504867676

Something you might want to consider is standing the doors off farther from the fixture to allow more gun access:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73400&d=1504867677

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73401&d=1504867678

Looking good! Sure wish my feeble mind had I had thought to get in touch last week :(

Jeff

733997340073401

[CraigS]

Your preparations look good Carl w/ one exception. The hood looks too high to be comfortably painted. I guess it's a compromise so you can shoot both underneath and top, but the top is what will be most seen. If you want a hand during any of the next 3 weeks, let me know. I am tied up on the weekends though.

[carlewms]

Your preparations look good Carl w/ one exception. The hood looks too high to be comfortably painted. I guess it's a compromise so you can shoot both underneath and top, but the top is what will be most seen. If you want a hand during any of the next 3 weeks, let me know. I am tied up on the weekends though.

Craig,

Great point ... I can use the table it is on for a paint station and setup the hood on a table like the one the trunk lid is sitting on...

I will give you a call or pm.

Thanks,

Carl

[carlewms]

Jeff,

Thanks for the inputs ... I was really wondering where to trim those two pieces; now I know.

I will modify the door fixture to give more room ... with my fat hands and fingers and considerable lack of dexterity I will need all the room I can get for the gun.

Thanks for the inputs ... next time your in Gainsville come on by .... you are always welcome.

Carl

[srobinsonx2]

Hey Carl. Looks good. Super excited to see your finished product. I am not an expert and if any of my advice contradicts anything the Jeff's say, then completely ignore me.

I am going to second what JeffK said about the door "stand off". Here is what I had. I wish I had more room so I would recommend getting something closer to what Jeff has above.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68903&d=1497215871

One other thing I would do again would be practice spraying more. If you are already experienced painting then this is not an issue for you. I think my poor gun set up and technique caused me a lot of extra work. When I say more work, picture piles of used sandpaper and a big cloud of dust around me like Pigpen on Charlie Brown. Putting down the high build primer and surfacer better would have saved me some time.

I used the JeffK flip flop method for primer and surfacer. I then just painted one side at a time when I got to sealer, basecoat, and clear. Jeff Miller recommended this and I was worried flipping the panels over after clear would inevitably stir up some dust that would get in the clear. I also had limited space and the flip flop apparatus took up a lot of space. I am sure either way would work so don't change because of what I did. Just sharing.

Looking good man. You are getting close now. Have you selected a color? Or is that a secreat?;)

[carlewms]

Srobinsonx2,

Thanks ... I have read your thread many times and have downloaded to my iPad so that I can refer to it in the garage.

Yesterday I managed to get some of Jeff K's recommendations in place.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93419569338/medium/1505062253/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93419569116/medium/15050622
51/enhance

I set up the hood on a pair of sawhorses and some OSB ... to make them about level with the trunk lid.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93419569098/medium/1505062250/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93419569275/medium/1505062252/enhance

Paint colors ... Wimbleton White with ghosted stripes ....

I still have some moving around to to get the flow right ...

[srobinsonx2]

Carl,

The stand offs look good on the doors. Wish I had done that. Would have made painting the doors easier.

Through the primer, base, and clear, I tried a number of different sequences. For the primer it didn't really matter. I used the large PPS cups (28 fl oz) and found that one full cup of Slick Sand would cover the body with one full coat. Then a second cup would allow me to cover all the panels with one coat with just a little left over (5 fl oz maybe). I tried painting the panels first and then the body and vice versa. I liked doing the body first but that maybe just me. If I did it again, I would paint all the primer (slick sand and primer surfacer) outside. Since I sanded it all anyway, that would have saved me some garage prep time.

For the sealer, base and clear, I painted all the panels first. That worked great and gave me way more room in the garage. I have plenty of sealer so I didn't get too worked up about waste. I mixed up a full 28 oz on the panels and had a bunch left over. Same for the body, I mixed up a full 28 oz and had a little left over. For base, I mixed up a full cup and since it is not catalyzed, I was able to set it aside and save it for later. I used the amount of sealer I sprayed to estimate how much clear I needed.

Doing the panels and body separately really made moving around in the garage much easier for me. Just my experience. As you know, I was only using two stalls of my 3 car garage. If you use your whole garage, you should have plenty of room.

Having painted my car myself, I find I am very interested in others that are doing the same. Good luck and I am excited for you. A lot of work but fun to learn something new. I am sure your car will look awesome. Keep posting. I want to see those ghost stripes. That should be cool.

[carlewms]

Thanks ...

I don't have access to even a small compressor ... do you think I could put slick sand through the Apollo?

Carl

[srobinsonx2]

Carl,

Sorry for the delay in my response. I have been out of town.

I did not try to apply slick sand with my Apollo gun. For two reason. One, I had never sprayed before and the fear of having slick sand set up in my expensive Apollo gun scared me. Turns out I don't think there was much risk of this happening but I did not know that at the time. Secondly, I talked to the Apollo rep and he said I could spray something that thick but to get a good application (smooth) it might need some thinning. The Jeffs told me not to thin. This makes sense now. Thinning would just mean more coats since you want this stuff to build up. Build up so you can sand it off. :)

Here is a thought. I put on a little over 2 gallons of Slick Sand. I put on one gallon the first time. Jeff K informed me that was not enough. I did block that out but quickly found out he was right. So I put on another 1 1/2 gallon. That round I got 3 good coats on and it turned out to be enough to get it smooth. I ended up with 1/2 gallon extra. You will most likely end up with some left over and it might be worth your time to mix up a little and see if you can get a good application with the turbine sprayer. They sale a 2.0 mm and a 2.5 mm nozzle for our gun. I think the tech sheet says to use 2.0 or larger nozzle. If I get some time this weekend, maybe I will give it a try for you. I still have my left over slick sand.

Another option would be to rent a small compressor and buy a cheap primer gun. I got my gun for around $30 from Summit. Good enough for my short term needs. I have a 30 gallon air compressor. It ran the whole time I was spraying but I never had to stop and wait for it to catch up. You might be able to get by with something even a little smaller. Could you rent a small compressor for a week? I am sure that isn't too much money. Just a thought. Don't mean to spend your money for you. If you are like me, you do that just fine all by yourself.

Good luck.

[srobinsonx2]

Sorry for the second post. I used the Apollo sprayer for everything after slick sand. It sprayed the primer surfacer, sealer, base, and clear good enough for this amateur.

If you are going to use a cup and line type system with the turbine syste, make sure you get a pressurized cup. 3M has one, not sure about the other brands.

[carlewms]

I have been some research ...

1. Sunbelt will rent me a 7 cfm compressor for $120 per week or a 14 cfm for $160 per week;
2. I also have an old single turbine unit which I can try as well. I have used it on water based latex before without any issues;
3. As I have prepared the body ... I have found some more pinholes to fix before I start with the Slick Sand;
4. I still need to get the Apollo system on order. Which cup gun did you get with the system?

Thanks for the detailed responses. If you end up testin the Slick Sand with the turbine system I would love to see the results.

Thanks,

Carl

[srobinsonx2]

I have been some research ...

1. Sunbelt will rent me a 7 cfm compressor for $120 per week or a 14 cfm for $160 per week;
2. I also have an old single turbine unit which I can try as well. I have used it on water based latex before without any issues;
3. As I have prepared the body ... I have found some more pinholes to fix before I start with the Slick Sand;
4. I still need to get the Apollo system on order. Which cup gun did you get with the system?

Thanks for the detailed responses. If you end up testin the Slick Sand with the turbine system I would love to see the results.

Thanks,

Carl

No problem Carl,

Again, no expert but I bet either rental unit would work just fine. I think mine is 7 cfm at 40 psi. Since the larger is only $40 more, I would spring for the bigger one. With a $30 dollar primer gun from Summit, you could spray slick sand for less than $200. Summit ships fast so you could get going quickly if you wanted. ;)

I got the gravity feed 1000ml cup. In retrospective, that is probably too big. I didn't use it anyway. I solely used the 3M PPS cup and liners.

If I get a chance I will try to spray some slick sand with my turbine. I don't have any panels to spray so my test will have to be on some poster board. Also, the largest needle/nozzle I have is the 2.0 mm. That is on the lower side of the recommended range but it is worth a shot.

Keep us posted on your progress.

[srobinsonx2]

Carl,

I sprayed some Slick Sand with my Apollo Turbine system. I used my largest nozzle, 2.0 mm. The Slick Sand is very thick and didn't atomize as well as it did when I used my primer gun. Here is a shot right after I sprayed.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73825&d=1505694994

I had to reduce the fan to about 6" and the fluid flow to 2.5 turns out. That seemed to be the best I could get. As you can see it did not immediately lay down very smooth.

This second picture is after a few minutes. It has evened up a little but still not great.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73823&d=1505694972

I also had to move really slow to get decent coverage. With this slow application, you might run into time restrictions with the catalyzed slick sand. If you mix up large batches (quarts), you might end up with it starting to harden before you get completely done spraying and cleaning the gun. Maybe you could reduce the amount of activator used or spray when it is cooler. With my limited experience, I would stick with the primer gun. I just don't have the knowledge or experience to start tweaking mixtures, etc.

Hope this helps out. Good luck

[carlewms]

Thanks so much for the slick sand test ... I am going to get the Summit gun you used and rent the air compressor. I am sure that others who are going down the paint it yourself path without the benefit of a full blown compressor are going to appreciate all your excellent documentation. I know I do!

[carlewms]

After doing some more research I came across a brand new 60 gal air compressor (Kobalt/Campbell Hausfield) for $300 normally lists for $499.

It is still under warranty ...

So now to decide which gun to buy ...

Carl

[srobinsonx2]

That awesome. Sounds like you have what you need to do primer, base, and clear.

[carlewms]

Craig's list produced what I hope was a very good deal ... I came across a brand new 60 gal air compressor (Kobalt/Campbell Hausfield) for $300 normally lists for $499. Apparently the original owner had it hauled off by the seller; the seller found a loose wire connection, fixed it and it works just fine now.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93455114152/medium/1506003012/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93455114135/medium/1506003011/enhance

I have started mocking up the connections and have some questions for you experts:

1. What is the order of installation from the tank?

- Isolation Valve, Air Filter, Pressure Regulator
or
- Isolation Valve, Air Pressure Regulator, Air Filter

2. Right now I just have the cheaper Kobalt Air Filter and Pressure Regulator. This may work fine but I suspect that I could do better for painting. What do you all recommend?

3. Paint Gun(s) Selection. Based on my research so far it seems I can get an inexpensive ($30-$40) primer gun for the Slick Sand but what is the recommended gun(s) for primer, base and clear?

So far I have found the following:

DeVilbis Auto Paint and Priming System (Eastwood #12506) $154.97

Eastwood Concours Pro 2 Paint Gun and Accessory Kit (Eastwood #14776) $249.97. It does not have a separate primer gun but does include 2 mm needle.

Both come with cleaning kits and are gravity fed.

There are several cheaper systems online but I worry about the quality of the systems.

Any recomendations

Thanks,

Carl

[srobinsonx2]

Carl,

For an air dryer I used the following from Eastwood. Devilbiss QC3 Air Filter and Dryer. It has an integrated indicator to tell you when to change it based on a color change.

I bought a second dryer/filter cartridge as well. I am not sure if this is normal but the indicator showed it was exhausted after my first application of Slick Sand (1 gallon). I then used the second cartridge on my second application (another 1 1/2 gallons). Maybe I plumbed mine wrong or something but the dessicant just didn't last very long for me.

I bet the experts will chime in.

[Gromit]

one thing you can do to help getting drier air is increase the distance from the Compressor to the actual drier. and make a trap that catches the condensate before it gets to the Drier. remember HOT Air from compressor can hold moisture. cold air does not. I even read some where in a DIY guide that you make a coil and put it in an ice bucket to cool the air. anything you can do to remove the water before you get to the drier helps it and you air tools last longer. I think there is a good start in one of the Eastwood how to paint Youtube just my .02

Chris

[carlewms]

Thanks for the fast feedback ...

I will check out the Eastwood stuff (I have bought a bunch of their stuff for the build so far so I have confidence in their products as well).

I could use the Kobalt air filter as the first filter and then the QC3 system as the second.

I have room for the condensate trap as well so off the hardware store for some more piping, connections and valves.

Just to confirm then here is the order ... starting from the tank:

1. Cutoff Valve
2. Piping for the trap;
3. First Air Filter (using the Kobalt i Already have);
4. The DeVilbiss QC3 Filter; and then,
5. The pressure regulator.

Does that sound right?

Thanks,

Carl

[carlewms]

As is all things I seem to start these days ... the installation of my "new good deal" air compressor took a lot longer than planned.

Well the installation is almost complete ... unless you guys find something I missed causing me to make some changes and a few other fixes.

A couple of objectives in the installation:

1) Maximize Sweat Equity and Minimize Material Costs ... for I am a cheap *******;
2) Maximize CFM within the constraints of Objective 1 below to support High Volume Low Pressure (HVLP) spray guns; and,
3) Get Air that is acceptably dry and clean out of the system for painting.

This led to the following choices:

1) Iron pipe for the piping;
2) 3/4" ID pipe size through the manifold and 3/8" ID fittings to maximize volumetric flow for HVLP painting;
3) 3/8" ID pipe size through the manifold and 1/4" ID fittings for the other uses;
4) Sourcing materials from the local hardware stores where possible including the particulate/mist filter for the tool manifold;
5) Using a loop in the piping to allow cooling and condensation of water from the air which if need be can be cooled with ice or dry ice (a tray will be added later if this is needed); and,
6) A drain to remove condensation from the tank and piping without having to depressurize the tank.

Here are the results:

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93552406064/medium/1509327529/enhance

The upper manifold is the 3/4" setup for HLVP painting (although it can be used for tools as well). The lower manifold is for other tools. Either one can be isolated for maintenance, etc.

The difference between 3/8" and 1/4" ID is evident in the following photo:

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93553068976/medium/1509350917/enhance

I can source more efficient fittings if I find that the volumetric flow rate is too low.

The horizontal part of the loop is sloped slightly to allow condensation to drain to the valve on the bottom of the right vertical leg.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93553077344/medium/1509352143/enhance

A 30 amp plug and receptacle was installed for the air compressor so that the outlet could also be used with my MIG welder.

The air compressor is mounted to the floor via concrete anchors and cushioned with a steel plate and rubber pads made by Kobalt for the compressor.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93552406290/medium/1509327533/enhance

The drain, shown on the lower left side of the tank, has 2 valves in series that allow the tank to be isolated when draining condensation from the tank. The outer valve is shut; the inner valve is opened; condensation drains into the piping between the valves; the inner valve shut; and, then the outer valve is open to drain out the condensation.

The system was pressure checked ... which of course did not go without incident...

First I could not get the compressor to run very fast ... turns out I wired the plug for 120 volts instead of the required 240 volts

Second I had changed the oil on the compressor ... and I forgot to install the fill plug. This became obvious when I found oil spots all over my freshly painting piping, the wall and floor.

The good news: No Leaks

Any issues to be concerned about here?

Carl

[carlewms]

Background: After a whole lot of personal research and increase state of confusion on my part, The Jeff's Squared (Jeff Kleiner and Jeff Miller) suggested taking a look at the 3M ACCUSPRAY Spray Gun System. After studying both the 3M website and viewing multiple YouTube videos, I took the plunge and purchased the system.

3M advertises the system as ...

"The one of the only HVLP spray gun system that allows for professional-grade solvent-based or waterborne finish application with virtually no cleaning and no maintenance kits.

This system features a lightweight, composite spray gun body that is molded in one piece, eliminating the complexity, wear and cleaning of small parts and pieces.

It effortlessly accepts replaceable atomizing heads ? these transparent nozzles can be reused 5-10 times and then simply removed and replaced. This affords the performance of a brand new spray gun, on demand and at a fraction of the price.

Atomizing heads are available in a 1.4 mm size, ideal for sealers, primer surfacers, basecoats and topcoats; a 1.8 mm size for higher-viscosity materials such as primer and gel coats; and a 2.0 mm size for heavy-duty applications using fluids like adhesives, undercoats or industrial coatings. And fast, easy controls for fan diameter, fluid and air pressure allow for quick adjustment across jobs from spot repairs to full panel coverage requiring up to 12? vertical or horizontal spray patterns ? one gun for a complete range of applications."

The system requires 20 psig and 13 CFM at the gun.

So here is what I have purchased so far from Amazon:

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93547645245/medium/1509197400/enhance

ACCUSPRAY Spray Gun System with Standard PPS (#16580) which contains almost all you would need to spray the car. In addition to the composite gun the kit includes 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and 1.8 mm atomizing heads, an air control valve with pressure gage, 5 soft liners and lids with built in filters, 1 Standard 650 ml/22 fl. Oz. hardcup with mixing/measuring insert.

3M PPS Starter Kit: Standard Size (#16172) contains six 650ml/22 fl. oz. cups and lids, collar, mix ratio insert and a bag of sealing plugs.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93547645223/medium/1509197399/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93547645216/medium/1509197399/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93547645220/medium/1509197399/enhance

3M ACCUSPRAY 2 mm Atomizing Head (#16609) contains (5) 2 mm heads for use with high build type primers (like SlickSand). The other sized atomizing heads are the same basic configuration except they are translucent to make for easier cleaning.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93547645225/medium/1509197399/enhance

Now that I have seen the kit I need to purchase 3M PPS Large Kit with 200 micron filters (#16024) which contains 25 of the disposable soft cubs and lids.

[srobinsonx2]

That 3M system looks pretty neat. I have been anxiously awaiting to see your progress. I am sure it will turn out great. Keep us posted and good luck.

[carlewms]

I will be doing a full documentation on the use of the paint system in this build thread ...

In preparing for the painting phase and after review of your excellent thread ... a couple of questions arise in my addled head:

1. You used a sealer after the JP202 Primer/Surfacer. I saw a sealer JP-335 mentioned but was the 1 qt. size enough?

2. If the base coat is white ... do I use a white primer?

3. I am planning a ghosted stripe and understand the process would be to tint some of the base color with the color I wan for the stripe. Is this correct?

[srobinsonx2]

Hey Carl,

I am sure the Jeffs will be able to answer these with more details and accuracy.

1. I used a sealer at the Miller's recommendation. It made a consistent base for the base coat. I bought a gallon of the JP335 but two would have been enough. Miller told me 2 quarts but my supply shop didnt have that size in stock and I am impatient.

2. No expert but I would use a white sealer/primer for a white base coat.

3. Sorry can't help much with the ghost stripe. But I am excited to see how it looks. Sounds awesome.

Good luck.

[carlewms]

Thanks for the response ...

At first I had trouble locating a PPG dealer in the Northern Virginia area and I almost gave up (several I called only carried their house paint or commercial lines).

Fortunately this morning I found a dealer fairly close that can supplies the PPG Shop-Line so I am going to visit with him later today or Monday.

The weather is calling for cold and rain so I may only get really started on Monday ...

Thanks,

Carl

[carlewms]

Folks ... Just in case you may be considering an air compressor installation in your future here is the Bill of Materials I prepared from my recent installation.

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93564464141/medium/1509718380/enhance

https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/services/mediarender/THISLIFE/000060644384/media/93564464144/medium/1509718381/enhance

This bill of materials doesn't include the materials installed by the electrician to bring the 240 V power to the wall and I am missing some bits and pieces of misc. hardware used in the installation (bolts, screws, washers, etc.).

Carl