Andrew & Tamra's 818SR EM Autox Hybrid Destroked Long-Rod Build [Archive] - Page 2

Scargo

01-04-2015, 08:00 AM

Your primary goal is autocross, correct? Like's been said, shorter is better/more responsive/less lag.
Stock unit (or I have an '08 STi intercooler ) in stock location is very short and efficient. How much will it heat up in a minute or so? I used to push my Porsche to the line and run it without a fan belt.
How can you perfect or maximize cold airflow through it? What about cold water mist on it?
Certainly, between runs, you could super-cool the IC.
Downside: The IC is perched right over the engine and can suffer from heat-soak, especially when not moving. The AWIC has some similar issue from its placement. Whatever the solution, I think isolating it from the heat of the engine would be a big help and it seems like most people are missing this fact and an opportunity. There was someone on here that has done quite a bit of work with ducting to the IC. Can't think of who it is right now.
I have been trying to think outside the box for my car to avoid all the hassles and complexity of an AWIC. Since I am purely road race and am not using the normal gas tank I have that space to play with and if I go with an undermount turbo the IC could be very well positioned in that space with reasonably short IC piping runs..

Lastly. [I]Perhaps it's jut me but the typical AWIC setup that I'm seeing seems small and possibly not as efficient as it needs to be for a high-performance racing engine. Can it be 1/4 or 1/5 the area of my FMIC and still perform as well solely because it is internally water-cooled?

freds

01-04-2015, 08:53 AM

There was someone on here that has done quite a bit of work with ducting to the IC. Can't think of who it is right now.

Perhaps it was this thread

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?16430-Max-use-of-stock-IC

xxguitarist

01-04-2015, 09:18 AM

Bob,
We'd be running squarely into the turbo hot side or the downpipe with that approach and the angle that our turbo sits at.

Glyn,
Our car came with a STi intercooler, actually. We would have had to do custom piping anyway, to get to the Y-pipe area, if the hot side didn't hit. Back before we decided to build the engine & go twin scroll, I was planning on an alcohol/water mist system.

The heat soak issue is a big one, especially with the air-air systems. Time between runs at SCCA events that run heats is really short, and you're doing everything you can to get numbers and drivers switched, and tires cooled down.

I think for road racing, with an R windshield, it's possible that there's a good solution for air-air. It'll take a bit of ducting. I don't think that the thermal mass of an intercooler is enough to handle the heat generated in a run without good air cooling also.

For us, we can skip all the ducting, pull into grid with the water pump & radiator/heat exchanger fans all blasting. No work involved, the water will be nearly as cool as ambient before the next run. The water will be flowing continuously, so it's only the end tanks that are going to be a little heatsoaked.

The key to AWIC is heat transfer and specific heat.
Heat transfer coefficients:
Air - 10 to 100 W/m2K
Water - 500 to 10 000 W/m2K

Specific heats:
Aluminum: .902 J/G*C
Water: 4.17 J/G*C

So, the transfer coefficient is why you can get away with a much smaller core. The one that seems common is "rated" for 600 hp, which is a bit meaningless of a metric, but a good indication that it'll handle the cooling for 350 hp.

And the specific heats are why we can't count on the thermal mass of a few pounds of aluminum, but why we could get away with a gallon or three of cold water (even without front radiator) for a short run. It absorbs ~4x as much heat by weight, for a given temp rise.

It will be a few months until we have datalogs, but we will post them when we do!

Hindsight

01-04-2015, 09:30 AM

Yes, the AWIC can be much, much smaller than A2A due to the much better ability of liquid to transfer heat from air. In addition, the A2W cores are constructed differently as well in the way the air and water channels are, and the number of and spacing of the baffles inside. They are optimized for the thermal transfer properties of liquid and benefit from reduced pressure drop of the charge air accordingly.

The only disadvantage to A2W not often discussed is that they will never get charge temps as low as a very well sized and sorted A2A setup because with A2W, you have losses in two heat exchangers instead of just one (first one being the "radiator" up front that cools the liquid and the second being the intercooler). A heat exchanger will never be 100% effective, IE the temp of the air or water passing through it will always be some percentage above ambient. So a properly sized, setup, ducted A2A setup can actually result in lower charge temps (however, when compared to a proper A2W setup, the difference may only be 10-10 degrees or so which isn't a big deal) but there are trade offs. First as we all know, it is incredibly challenging to properly sort out an A2A on the 818 (no one has successfully done it YET - though several are working on it). Second, a well sorted A2A system will have more pressure loss through the core, and will likely have more bends and plumbing volume.

I'm really looking forward to those who are pioneering new ways to make the A2A setups work, but I am still dead set on going with A2W. The only drawback for me is the added weight.

Hindsight

01-04-2015, 09:31 AM

Hah, jinx. We wrote about the same thing at the same time, though you put scientific numbers in yours..... ;)

Scargo

01-04-2015, 10:20 AM

Yes freds, it is you that I was thinking of. How is that going , BTW? Feel free to just discuss it on your thread.

Andrew, I know you've got more schooling than me. I wish I had it combined with my experiential learning!
Could you break this down a little for me. I sorta get it but would like to fully get it.
The key to AWIC is heat transfer and specific heat.
Heat transfer coefficients:
Air - 10 to 100 W/m2K
Water - 500 to 10 000 W/m2K

Specific heats:
Aluminum: .902 J/G*C
Water: 4.17 J/G*C

The whole W/m2K is the exchange rate? Why such a range?
Specific heats:... Is that the same as the "specific heat capacity"? What do the numbers mean or refer to? Is there some factor here for the normal temperature range for air coming out of a turbocharger?
Thanks.

xxguitarist

01-04-2015, 11:17 AM

Glyn,
The transfer rate varies so much based on the type of transfer- convective (laminar/turbulent), conductive, and other conditions.

Specific heat is a constant for each material, it's the amount of energy (J/btu/?) required to raise a unit of mass (G/Lb/?) by one degree (C/F/k)
I'm not familiar with it referred to as a capacity, but I guess it could be the same, or similar.
So what we're looking at is that if you had a block of aluminum & a "block" of water (not ice), and they both weighed the same, you would have to put 4x as much energy into the "block" of water before the temp came up by 1 degree.
Alternately, if you want to absorb heat from something, you need 4x as much aluminum (by weight) to do the job, compared with water, neglecting all external cooling.

Tamra

01-04-2015, 08:12 PM

We played with the gas pedal today. Like, all day. What a pain.

We are not entirely dissatisfied with how the manual says to place it, so we went ahead and used the provided bracket for now. It is a little flexy, but honestly, if we are ever slamming the gas pedal hard enough to notice it flex, we will probably have other things to focus on with 350whp! Plus, it willl not be hard to reinforce later if we feel the need.

However, there were some other issues that had to be addressed. For one, the gas pedal's motion is stopped when it hits the clutch/brake cross bar. Unlike other people who posted with the same issue, our throttle did not open entirely despite hitting this cross bar, like theirs did. We were getting maybe 90% throttle when fully depressed. In order to remedy this, we removed the little rubber piece that went in this hole here, and it was just enough to get the throttle fully open:

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/B08E7683-9A3C-4899-A60F-F4284A5DFB1D_zpsnox9phuc.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/B08E7683-9A3C-4899-A60F-F4284A5DFB1D_zpsnox9phuc.jpg.html)

The next issue we had was the throttle cable rubbing on the square pass through. We cut it squares way down, and the cable passed through without rubbing:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/EE874381-4A57-4676-BDAB-1865A2568206_zpswmwud9f4.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/EE874381-4A57-4676-BDAB-1865A2568206_zpswmwud9f4.jpg.html)

We also drilled a separate hole in the firewall for the throttle cable to pass through, and found an OEM grommet to use. We passed the throttle cable down the center console and back to the engine, and it reached without a ton of room to spare.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/86B90DF3-2F2B-4561-A547-7E38A3840968_zpsm1ashisb.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/86B90DF3-2F2B-4561-A547-7E38A3840968_zpsm1ashisb.jpg.html)

The next issue is the horrible grinding noise that the throttle cable makes where it comes out of its sleeve in the firewall. A good solution for this, and what Rori did, is to use 1/4" beveled washer to angle the throttle cable so that it does not have that drop off where it comes out of the sleeve. We will be picking some of these up. Here is a link to Rori's thread. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13606-RoRi-s-818S-Build-Thread&p=144712&viewfull=1#post144712)

Andrew also worked on wiring. The mess is starting to take shape and the fuse panel mounting points are becoming clear. Photos to come later once we work on it a bit more.

I work in accounting, so over the next few weeks things will be getting very busy at work and I will not be helping out on the car as much. Andrew will be working solo more and so we suspect progress will slow down a bit. We are still hoping to get the car road registered in the early spring, in time for autocross.

Frank818

01-04-2015, 08:26 PM

We played with the gas pedal today. Like, all day. What a pain.

Yup, many little things like this take a full day or 2 to work on and you feel nothing has progressed. But those little things are very important, if not worked on properly, the car is deemed to be non-functional. lolll

xxguitarist

01-06-2015, 07:24 PM

Well that was easy...

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/67AAAC94-AB20-40A1-BF53-9113F8641A73_zps0fhifzry.jpg

Just kidding, but we did get our downpipe parts today, it's on the hit list for this week alongside the wastegates and their plumbing.

Hindsight

01-06-2015, 08:04 PM

Wow, I can kind of see your engine behind that turbo

Tamra

01-06-2015, 08:15 PM

wow, i can kind of see your engine behind that turbo

lol!

RM1SepEx

01-06-2015, 08:26 PM

Tamra, dump the bracket, works better w/o it.

I also decided to stiffen the firewall where the gas pedal is mounted to the firewall. I didn't use the FFR bracket, it is too flimsy. I cut an inch of one leg of a piece of 2 x 2 x 1/8 aluminum angle, used 3/16 rivets to the frame tubes. Between the two 1/4 mounting bolts an an extra one for good measure it is nice and stiff

37364

37365

I did clip the end of the pedal rod at the pivot to mount it as close as possible to the frame tube to reduce the distance to the brake pedal

xxguitarist

01-06-2015, 11:22 PM

Dan,

Thanks for the input. It seems like it's mostly just flimsy side to side/twisting. Agree?
When putting feet on the pedals, all I was really bothered by was the 02's pivoting pedal- simulating a heel-toe often resulted in tipping the pedal, without actually moving the main throttle arm.

Nice thing is, it's just bolted on, so we can change it up if we do find that it moves too much.

On another note, we got the AWIC supplies and some assorted mcmaster parts ordered!

RM1SepEx

01-06-2015, 11:28 PM

The FFR bracket moves too much. I didn't like where it put the cable, hard to adjust, not enough free play etc...

Stiffen the mount, bolt it directly most of the cable throttles have been done that way. I might shim it out to get it higher. You can adjust its side to side position with a vice ;-)

Be careful, I couldn't get my original where I wanted it, started with the bracket and it was too low, cut/welded, cut bent, bolted to the firewall, cut, welded bent... etc..

I could have bought a gold plated pedal by now

Just bought another one on EBay $35 delivered... :rolleyes:

Tamra

01-08-2015, 11:09 PM

Tonight I added a grommet to the firewall hole pass through for the wiring. FFR doesn't include one.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/0443E791-2F94-43F1-A9B6-215EEC2CD622_zpsmpbu8ow6.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/0443E791-2F94-43F1-A9B6-215EEC2CD622_zpsmpbu8ow6.jpg.html)

I also was tired of fussing with the difficult weather stripping FFR provided (using a hammer got it most of the way on). We purchased some smaller, easier to work with stripping.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/D70A6CBE-1C39-4276-8775-17EC240E793B_zpsy7ycfi0a.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/D70A6CBE-1C39-4276-8775-17EC240E793B_zpsy7ycfi0a.jpg.html)

We did this over the weekend technically - Andrew mounted the ECU, using part of the original shield as a water block.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/E5D0252B-B7E7-4FCE-9B77-0BC333917204_zpsjfdc8vu0.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/E5D0252B-B7E7-4FCE-9B77-0BC333917204_zpsjfdc8vu0.jpg.html)

The exciting, and difficult, part of tonight was fitting the wastegates. We are trying to fit two 38mm Tial wastegates... and there's very little room. We ended up putting one basically ON the up-pipe (about 1/4" off, with about 1/2" clearance off the engine block on the other side), and the other added a 90 degree pipe to take it out of the space.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/A90BF0F7-23C5-4B4A-A12B-AE6ECEB5D898_zpsimwjouh3.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/A90BF0F7-23C5-4B4A-A12B-AE6ECEB5D898_zpsimwjouh3.jpg.html)

Andrew is going to make holes in the up-pipe and then tack it up tomorrow at work, and if fitment seems good, we'll weld it on Saturday.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/486C682C-5438-4EEB-BBBC-95154D041B17_zpsrrnjphdp.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/486C682C-5438-4EEB-BBBC-95154D041B17_zpsrrnjphdp.jpg.html)

Scargo

01-09-2015, 06:23 AM

Lot of damn work to get the big k-schewwwwwwwwww sound! Great work guys.

xxguitarist

01-09-2015, 09:55 AM

Lot of damn work to get the big k-schewwwwwwwwww sound! Great work guys.

Ha, these won't even be audible much, but we should have VERY strong ability to clamp the boost, and we keep full true twin scroll. We'll be plumbing them back into the downpipe.

Some up-pipes will Y the two into one wastegate, which sure would have been easier, but you risk some pressure pulses wrapping around at the Y.

STiPWRD

01-09-2015, 10:08 AM

You guys should go externally wastegated. That sound is awesome when you hit boost!

Tamra

01-09-2015, 11:21 AM

You guys should go externally wastegated. That sound is awesome when you hit boost!

Can you not see the pictures? That is what we are doing lol :) The Borg Warner S200SX requires external wastegates, and two of them since it is twin scroll.

Frank818

01-09-2015, 11:31 AM

Interesting, I didn't know twin-scrollies required 2 WGs. This oh... that's cuz the exhaust are devided, therefore each "side" does not communicate with each other so it needs a relieve valve for each?

Twin turbo twin-scroll setup means 4 WGs... :)

xxguitarist

01-09-2015, 11:52 AM

Can you not see the pictures? That is what we are doing lol :) The Borg Warner S200SX requires external wastegates, and two of them since it is twin scroll.

He probably meant running a dump tube, vs our plan to go back into the downpipe- We don't think we'd get away with that at inspection.

Interesting, I didn't know twin-scrollies required 2 WGs. This oh... that's cuz the exhaust are devided, therefore each "side" does not communicate with each other so it needs a relieve valve for each?

Twin turbo twin-scroll setup means 4 WGs... :)

Yep. It's not uncommon to just kinda try to keep things mostly separated until it hits the piston of the WG, but this is the "right" way to do it, not sure how much difference it really makes. But yes, keeps them separate so there's no chance of cross-talk.

wleehendrick

01-09-2015, 12:05 PM

A little off-topic, but related: My wife's 135i is a twin-scroll I6 and (even stock) makes a nice blow-off sound. She gets a kick out of it, and like to say "She whistles when she works!"

STiPWRD

01-09-2015, 12:50 PM

He probably meant running a dump tube, vs our plan to go back into the downpipe- We don't think we'd get away with that at inspection.

Right, that's what I meant. I guess I could see why it would fail inspection :(

xxguitarist

01-09-2015, 01:50 PM

A little off-topic, but related: My wife's 135i is a twin-scroll I6 and (even stock) makes a nice blow-off sound. She gets a kick out of it, and like to say "She whistles when she works!"

The spool and recirc BPV are both pretty audible on my MS3 also, once I added a Cobb SRI. We have a similar part for the 818, and the intake will be located by the passenger's head, so I expect it'll be pretty audible on this car also.
We'll be running the forge BPV as full recirc here too. One less hassle for tuning.

Not much to hear on my MS3 with the IWG opening, so it'll be interesting to see how the tone changes on this car when the EWGs open up, despite being back into the downpipe.

xxguitarist

01-09-2015, 09:12 PM

Tacked on the EWGs today!

It's a bit nerve-wracking to plunge the hole saw into a nice tidy up-pipe.. Gulp.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DD55ADD7-9BE9-4F32-B8C2-9B6FA94A6A34_zpswowzmah7.jpg

Test fit! Looks good, and there's lots more clearance than expected. Benefit of not having hands and arms clogging up the space, I guess!

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/A22A7DC2-ABE3-453B-9153-2DE9540517F2_zpsrcyel4q9.jpg

Tamra

01-09-2015, 10:29 PM

Most recent time lapse of the last 1/2 of December through today:

http://youtu.be/W7vzZBQZlew?list=PLdc0PjaUSDO8Onql4wMLRWNF38IyIAyD R

Hindsight

01-09-2015, 10:59 PM

I think you hold the record for most elaborate turbo and exhaust setup. Its going to be a work of art when all finished and something few will be able to match. I hope you dyno it because I am very interested to see what kind of spool gains you get with this twin scroll setup.

xxguitarist

01-09-2015, 11:22 PM

We are sponsored through a local tuning shop, EFI Logics (http://www.efilogics.com/), so we will definitely have plots to share in a few months!

metalmaker12

01-10-2015, 10:01 AM

You guys should go externally wastegated. That sound is awesome when you hit boost!

A daaaaaaaaaaa, that's what they got.

Anyhow, what are your boost plans. That turbo is a great setup and I like it way much, but as you prob know takes some decent boost to be in efficiency range( 18-25+) In autocross that thing will have to be dialed up so you have soild lower end torque to rip out of turns in the lower rev range. Should do the trick with the dual Ewg's to hold boost well, but full spool might not be till like 4,500. It might not matter in this beast cause you will be making like 225-250 @ like 3k so lag might not even be an issue. It's going to be crazy powrful mid range....can I get a glass of awesome!!!! I love your plan and build, great job guys

metalmaker12

01-10-2015, 10:03 AM

xxguitarist

01-10-2015, 10:59 AM

Anyhow, what are your boost plans. That turbo is a great setup and I like it way much, but as you prob know takes some decent boost to be in efficiency range( 18-25+) In autocross that thing will have to be dialed up so you have soild lower end torque to rip out of turns in the lower rev range. Should do the trick with the dual Ewg's to hold boost well, but full spool might not be till like 4,500. It might not matter in this beast cause you will be making like 225-250 @ like 3k so lag might not even be an issue. It's going to be crazy powrful mid range....can I get a glass of awesome!!!! I love your plan and build, great job guys

We figure we'll likely be around 20 psi. The engine is built for lots more, so we have plenty of headroom there. We're shooting for around 350 whp, with some lower boost tunes to get used to the handling on the course.

With our housing size/ A/R, we're expecting full spool closer to 3000 rpm. Might be a little later, but shouldn't be nearly so far out as 4500. We're on the smaller end for BWs.

Thanks!

Tamra

01-10-2015, 11:41 PM

The up-pipe is officially welded and complete! Note: the T4 flange had to be mig welded, whereas the EWG's were TIG. This photo is BEFORE we cleaned up the inside edges, so they look a little rough.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/AC078644-034E-4432-A27E-30E84721BAE8_zpslqpr06hd.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/AC078644-034E-4432-A27E-30E84721BAE8_zpslqpr06hd.jpg.html)

Fresh off the TIG welder, not brushed yet:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/B9B2551D-FFE1-47E4-A487-17AAB20B2D0C_zpsj409h0el.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/B9B2551D-FFE1-47E4-A487-17AAB20B2D0C_zpsj409h0el.jpg.html)

Just enough clearance for everything:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/FC8C20B2-79C3-4173-A685-C2AA71AF987E_zpsinjqsf0d.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/FC8C20B2-79C3-4173-A685-C2AA71AF987E_zpsinjqsf0d.jpg.html)

We also chopped the cross brace. We will be reinforcing it, but just cut it tonight to start getting ideas for the solution. Also, we picked up this electric cut-off wheel. Our air cut off wheel was just not cutting it due to our air compressor not being able to keep it going. The electric one cuts through pipe about 20-30 times as fast - a huge time saver. We definitely should have bought this earlier than now. This, and the vice, are huge time savers.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/8D91D535-1E32-4E7D-BE4A-0F036A09BA53_zpsmfsv7shu.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/8D91D535-1E32-4E7D-BE4A-0F036A09BA53_zpsmfsv7shu.jpg.html)

Downpipe is tacked up. We will probably have to fiddle with it to get the cat in there for inspection, but for now, placement looks good. We will likely go with a v-band for the cat, which we will swap out with a small muffler later. Tomorrow, we will weld in our OEM o2 and our wideband o2 bungs, and finish welding everything. We have over 1/2" off the turbo everywhere from the cross brace in its currently chopped form.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/626B020E-EA83-4BEB-B279-E65C1DFA3747_zpsslnk66hf.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/626B020E-EA83-4BEB-B279-E65C1DFA3747_zpsslnk66hf.jpg.html)

And finally, we added in the 1/4" tapered spacers to fix the throttle cable rubbing issue. It's not perfect (rubs very slightly when fully compressed), but is overall pretty good. Thanks to Rori for the idea!
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/59C8CDA3-5F4B-4BD4-9B7F-9B383E8563A9_zps65hmuglz.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/59C8CDA3-5F4B-4BD4-9B7F-9B383E8563A9_zps65hmuglz.jpg.html)
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/B9A29458-60EF-4FC3-B7D7-AEB09C7E0823_zpsavxji3af.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/B9A29458-60EF-4FC3-B7D7-AEB09C7E0823_zpsavxji3af.jpg.html)

Scargo

01-11-2015, 06:44 AM

Not to bad for a couple of wet behind the ears kids. I like the attitude of cut it out and then envision how it can be.
That cable issue looks like a candidate for a short piece of tube welded in at the right angle. I've got alum stock and a lathe...
(and now a working sand/bead blaster). ;) Don't know what more I can do to lure you over. Cookie little girl? Beer Andrew?

Hindsight

01-11-2015, 07:15 AM

Nice work. Coming together very quickly. I have that same grinder and can't tell you how often it saves me in various pinches. I have had the bench mount version of that on my tool-want list for some time: http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-D28710-14-Inch-Abrasive-Chop/dp/B00551DJBQ

Scargo

01-11-2015, 09:42 AM

I know they are very popular but they are very messy. They also burn the metal, which gets in the air. I find that my HF hand grinder sends metal flying everywhere. Unavoidable, but messy. I like my HF horizontal/vertical metal cut-off saw (http://www.harborfreight.com/horizontal-vertical-metal-cutting-bandsaw-93762.html) with a really good Starrett blade (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003CYL672/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1) on it. Slightly slower but one advantage is less cleanup required of the cut.
37484

Hindsight

01-11-2015, 09:51 AM

Yeah the band saws are awesome but unfortunately not possible for me due to lack of space. The nice thing about the chop saw is that you can put them up on the shelf and out of the way when not using them. A friend told me they make a bladed variety of the metal chop saw that uses a blade that looks similar to that of a wood chop saw, instead of an abrasive disc. Says they are more accurate and better than the abrasive type.

xxguitarist

01-11-2015, 10:37 AM

At my office we have both a good HUGE vertical metal bandsaw, an old JET model, and also a cold saw. Neither one want much to do with the stainless exhaust tubing that the abrasive type just blasts through. They'll both get through it, but it takes at least 5x as long, probably more.

They're both fantastic when it comes to mild steel or aluminum, though. Maybe the blades aren't as sharp as they could be.

Scargo

01-11-2015, 10:46 AM

We used our five HP 10" Unisaw to cut aluminum plate back in the day. A special rake grind on the teeth and a mister. The blade style and tooth count is critical. The blade I listed is pretty good for bandsawing thin-walled tubing and 1/4 plate.

metalmaker12

01-11-2015, 07:20 PM

We figure we'll likely be around 20 psi. The engine is built for lots more, so we have plenty of headroom there. We're shooting for around 350 whp, with some lower boost tunes to get used to the handling on the course.

With our housing size/ A/R, we're expecting full spool closer to 3000 rpm. Might be a little later, but shouldn't be nearly so far out as 4500. We're on the smaller end for BWs.

Thanks!

Like exhaust and tials,

Anyhow I meant full torque ( peak torque by 4,500) full bosst should be achieved like 3k. Sorry dude. Anyway it comes on should be awesome so it's only a matter of time before we see how it behaves with you setup and tune.

Tamra

01-11-2015, 07:20 PM

Question for those of you more advanced in your builds... do the body panels travel below the bottom edge of this wooden board? Does anything sit below it other than the intercooler?

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/4A3DF99E-B6C1-4677-8507-8795FE71E62C_zpsocxotdm5.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/4A3DF99E-B6C1-4677-8507-8795FE71E62C_zpsocxotdm5.jpg.html)

Not pictured, but we worked on adjusting the position of the engine. We are opting to have it shoved more toward the passenger side for weight balance. It's not a significant amount - a little less than 1". It does tilt the engine slightly, but since the bulk of the weight is on the bottom, it will assist in weight balance. We also dremelled the transmission mounting point. No movement of the engine would make the transmission mount sit without stressing it. Everything is now torqued and set.

Finally, we also adjusted the shifter cables a bit to get a better shifter feel. We tilted the bracket slightly back (slotted the hole for the bolt on the left part of the mount, allowing us to tilt the mount), and bent both mounts slightly to get a better angle.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/486F8D25-4178-49CA-8B9F-44260CA60A38_zpsd4yiv4rt.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/486F8D25-4178-49CA-8B9F-44260CA60A38_zpsd4yiv4rt.jpg.html)

We were initially shocked at the poor shifter quality. There is a ton of side to side play that we were not expecting, that cannot be adjusted out. This is due to the length of the cables.

For comparison of the 818 shifter as designed by FFR, we took a video of its motion compared to our 1997 Mazda Miata (considered by many to be one of the best shifting, most connected feeling cars you can drive), and our 2008 Mazdaspeed 3. The results surprised us, as you don't notice certain things when you drive a car every day that you most definitely notice when you are hands on installing a part.

The Miata was significantly better of course, but still has some side to side movement. The Mazdaspeed 3 has just as much side to side play, but does give a resounding "thunk" in each gear that gives it a lot of clarity. Once we adjusted the shifter mount on the transmission on the 818 (reducing the angles reduces the drag, giving the "clean" feel in the shifting), we got pretty close to the same feel as the Mazdaspeed 3. We are going to run with this set up, and if we find we have any problems with autocross, we'll look at the MR2 mod next winter.

See video below. First shot of the 818 is before we adjusted the cables, and then at the end I included the adjusted version.

http://youtu.be/xSfBFkCi52w

Hindsight

01-11-2015, 07:40 PM

Thanks for posting the cable adjustment info. I'm really picky about shifter feel so it's good to know. I'm pretty surprised that's all it took was to move the bracket a bit... surprised but happy!

RM1SepEx

01-11-2015, 07:59 PM

Tamra. Part of the problem is the shifter is so long. I think if you stiffen up the shifter where the cables clamp you can get it be be cripsper feeling . I would shorten the shifter 3 inches or so and shorten that shifter slop 30 - 40 %

xxguitarist

01-11-2015, 09:23 PM

Tamra

01-11-2015, 09:36 PM

Actually, just found in Metalmaker's build thread (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10991-Metalmaker-s-build-thread-begins&p=179568&viewfull=1#post179568) that there is plenty of clearance. His photo showed a brace over his AWIC that is 8" above the bottom of the cross brace. This is good news, because we are currently thinking of adding a reinforcement brace going across the top of the cross brace (welded in flush at the tallest point). The top of the cross brace is only 6.5" up though, and our AWIC is 4.5" thick. If we add a 1" bar across the top, that will give us an extra 1" to spare for the AWIC. Anyone see any problems with this idea?

Bob_n_Cincy

01-11-2015, 09:42 PM

Sidenote, could you let us know where the engine cover fiberglass sits relative to the 2x4" photo above?

Metalmaker posted this picture where his engine cover support bar is 8" above the lower shock brace bar.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37502&d=1421030492

RM1SepEx

01-11-2015, 10:04 PM

Hindsight,
Yep, a bit of bending and slotting the hole lets you get rid of the large majority of the binding, etc. Just aim to get the cables as straight as possible on exit.
No promises that just doing this will make the bumper clearance happy, though.

Dan,
We're planning to under-mount the shifter, I agree that it's a really long linkage, but it's nice to have some mechanical advantage for the 1st-2nd direction, since that one isn't otherwise adjustable with the stock setup. It felt like cutting it down much would make that a pretty stiff shift. Could probably modify the underside to change the motion ratios too.. but that's starting to get a bit involved. We've got a big list of maybe plans for next winter.
Sidenote, could you let us know where the engine cover fiberglass sits relative to the 2x4" photo above?

Look at the shifter's geometry, the ratio is such that the knob's arm is is about 3x times the distance from the pivot, so slop at the bottom = 3x slop atd the top. It shifts smooth enough with low enough effot to reduce that ratio. It is the easiest was to remove the slop. Hanging it under changes the knob location is a less that optimal nature

The end of the shifter is easy to fix, I posted the cheapest soln above, flip the subaru bracket aroun, chop, grind and reweld (page 6-7 of this thread)

Ellimist

01-12-2015, 01:12 AM

We were initially shocked at the poor shifter quality. There is a ton of side to side play that we were not expecting, that cannot be adjusted out. This is due to the length of the cables.
Interesting that most of the slop is due to the cables. I opted for the aluminum shifter option since I figured the plastic shifter would be prone to more slop (as well as be less hardy). But if the cables are the main issue then maybe the different shifter won't help that. In any case, it'll be something different to explore!

Bob_n_Cincy

01-12-2015, 01:35 AM

Most the slop / backlash in the cable is caused by the amount of turns.
When you pull, the cable move to the inner surface of a turn. When you push, the cable moves to the outer surface of the turn. This is explain in the attached picture. Our cables are similar to 40 series.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37505&d=1421044412

RM1SepEx

01-12-2015, 07:29 AM

xcellent summary Bob!, that's why you need to do everything that you can do to eliminate play everywhere else. And when you have a 3-1 multiplier and can reduce that ratio... you have to go for it.

That's why even with the new aluminum shifter I got rid of .025 play in the actual pivot, it all adds up!

comparison to a Miata is unfair as it is a totally mechanical linkage with little play, inside the transmission, in oil, with a short lever.

Frank818

01-12-2015, 12:07 PM

I wonder what the backlash is on the K-Tuned race cables Wayne sells... Probably 0. lolll

BTW Ellimist, those K-Tuned cables might be an option over the FFR ones.

Hindsight

01-12-2015, 01:45 PM

I'm not sure the backlash on the K-tuned vs FFR cables is any different.... Wayne would probably be the only person who knows since I'm assuming he sourced the cables and knows what they are, however, my guess is that a big part of the improvement that Wayne's setup may provide isn't so much due to better backlash but a shorter and much straighter cable run. The longer the cable and the more curves it has, the more opportunity for slop due to backlash being felt in the shifter no?

RM1SepEx

01-12-2015, 02:05 PM

The Ktuned doesn't have the length and the loops, I would think getting rid of the front loops cuts the "slop" about in 1/2

xxguitarist

01-12-2015, 02:52 PM

Yeah, my guess is that for the 1-2 direction, going with a rearward facing cable cuts the backlash to near-zero, since you do still have some curves to go over the engine etc.
The side-to side backlash should still exist, just be a bit improved since you took that 180 out of it. Still have at least a 90 and some other lesser curves.

RM1SepEx

01-12-2015, 07:04 PM

make up a rotation mechanism to get rid of the loop... I might work on one for the stock shifter. Remember it isn't really how long, it's the loops

I have an old mid engine vw shifter in my garage somewhere, all rods, no cables...

Tamra

01-17-2015, 04:56 PM

Snack break...more to come later....

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/2F749AE2-4C1D-4D28-A709-3FE1C704C7C5_zpsspz3owwb.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/2F749AE2-4C1D-4D28-A709-3FE1C704C7C5_zpsspz3owwb.jpg.html)

Scargo

01-17-2015, 05:18 PM

I smell a motor starting soon. Get back to work!

metalmaker12

01-17-2015, 05:39 PM

Slackers, who needs food. I drove my 818 today, it was a little cold lol

Tamra

01-18-2015, 12:57 AM

I smell a motor starting soon. Get back to work!

We have better than a start up video... We have a driving video!

http://youtu.be/QV89AgUI1x4

We are not calling this our official go-kart day though - the seat is not permanently mounted, and neither is the shifter. However, we needed to turn it around in the garage, and well, driving it seemed like the easiest solution!

Case in point... the shifter mount:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/A37152A4-4137-404F-9BB3-B4C1F968BAD3_zpsw1h4wezq.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/A37152A4-4137-404F-9BB3-B4C1F968BAD3_zpsw1h4wezq.jpg.html)

So it was loud. Very loud. A muffler will definitely be required, and perhaps a larger one than we initially were planning on. It is so loud, we're not comfortable burping the coolant in the middle of the day until we have a muffler on it. It didn't help that we live in a quiet neighborhood and we decided to "turn it around" at 11pm. Sorry neighbors... we were stealth though. No headlights, so I'm sure nobody noticed.

Backing up a few hours, we wrapped the header and up pipe with DEI Titanium Wrap. The stuff is filled with a fiberglass type material and it was not fun, especially since twin scroll = twice as a hard. They say it will smoke for about 15 minutes on first start-up, which is where the smoke was coming from at the end of the video.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/69946E33-2CD7-422D-8DFC-017C56FFF1A8_zpsqyttf5mn.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/69946E33-2CD7-422D-8DFC-017C56FFF1A8_zpsqyttf5mn.jpg.html)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DB1FB5A9-0C0C-455D-A173-9D0786A266D5_zpsejzaun5a.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/DB1FB5A9-0C0C-455D-A173-9D0786A266D5_zpsejzaun5a.jpg.html)

Made our turbo return line. It was easier to add the fittings than we expected:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/9EA2FBF8-7DFE-4606-838E-778806C179AC_zpsmjq8fdcq.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/9EA2FBF8-7DFE-4606-838E-778806C179AC_zpsmjq8fdcq.jpg.html)

Andrew welded the downpipe at work on Friday. Two bungs, one for the regular o2 and the other for wideband.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/2A5750C7-158D-42EE-85E6-BC9004C47A82_zpswgdiz3nm.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/2A5750C7-158D-42EE-85E6-BC9004C47A82_zpswgdiz3nm.jpg.html)

Put together our jack in the box Tial 38mm wastegates. We added the 5psi springs for now to ensure very limited boost. We will have a Grimspeed EBCS later.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/D71FF129-4A19-4A99-945E-768890E76216_zpsh9sbut3t.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/D71FF129-4A19-4A99-945E-768890E76216_zpsh9sbut3t.jpg.html)

Tamra

01-18-2015, 12:58 AM

We welded up a turbo support brace:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/08709D09-9CEF-4A9A-8640-F2E5A9877907_zpsv1etwala.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/08709D09-9CEF-4A9A-8640-F2E5A9877907_zpsv1etwala.jpg.html)

Had to drill and tap our Forge BOV to get it to fit. There were no pipes available with the same adapter. This will be plumbed back into the Cobb intake, but not yet relevant due to no boost.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/96E5192D-0DF9-4064-B74A-00A2B00F4A6B_zpslxqiom01.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/96E5192D-0DF9-4064-B74A-00A2B00F4A6B_zpslxqiom01.jpg.html)

Final product. Rotated everything... including the AWIC
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/9D2E18F4-79CA-4B54-B9ED-29B0C3455DED_zps5fiue21b.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/9D2E18F4-79CA-4B54-B9ED-29B0C3455DED_zps5fiue21b.jpg.html)

wleehendrick

01-18-2015, 02:22 AM

Rotated everything... including the AWIC
I see what you did there...
37762

Great job!

Tamra

01-18-2015, 11:06 AM

LOL ^^ That's perfect wheelhendrick.

So some quick facts about our hours leading up to our first "drive" last night (see two posts above if you missed the video):

Since picking up the Subaru in May 2014 through the day we picked up our kit:
65 Total days spent on donor
136.25 total hours spent on donor
2.10 average hours per day spent working (excluding days we did not work)

10/24/2014 Last day of donor work before kit pickup
164 Total days we had donor - May - October
0.83 average hours per day including days we did not work

52 hours spent until the shell was hauled away and we began donor parts cleanup

Since we picked up the kit on 10/25/14:
54 Total days actually working on the 818 since pickup
216.5 total hours since pickup
4.01 average hours per day spent working (excluding days we did not work on the car)

1/18/2015 today's date
83 total days since pickup on 10/25/14
2.61 average hours spent per day including days we did not work

11.9 weeks since pickup
18.3 hours per week average

53.5 hours spent on engine build since pickup (88.5 hours spent on full engine rebuild, including during donor teardown time)
25 hours spent on turbo solution
138 hours spent on actually building the 818

Overall total including donor and 818:
119 Total days actually working since pickup
352.75 total hours spent working since donor pick up through 1/18/15
2.96 average hours per day spent working

1/18/2015 today's date
248 total days since pickup of donor
1.42 average hours per day

These numbers do not account for the fact that there have been 2 of us... (although I probably only count as .5)

In addition, we have sold:

$2,999 from Craigslist
$600 from CT Subie
$1,589 from Ebay
$10 Metalscrap
$1,720 from Nasioc
----------
$6,918 total donor sales

Somewhere north of $14,000 in additional parts purchases + $6,300 cost of donor and still climbing...

Hindsight

01-18-2015, 11:39 AM

Tamra

01-18-2015, 11:58 AM

Congrats on the first start and drive! It sounds great. I think you two may have won the record for fastest build, and the fact that you did a great job on everything and didn't cut a bunch of corners makes it even more of an achievement.

Definitely not the fastest build... I think some of the initial builders were crazy fast (Metalmaker for example). We might have the record for fastest build including a full engine rebuild and completely custom turbo set-up...lol

Still a lot left to do though. We're not calling it official go-kart day until we have installed seats and a fully installed shifter, plumb in the wastegates (no boost running to them now so they won't open), burped coolant system, and water running to the awic.

However, it was fun to know we technically can drive it under its own power :)

flynntuna

01-18-2015, 12:26 PM

Congrats, you may or may not be the fastest build, but you probably have gotten the most back from the donor! I appreciate the extra effort in recording the time taken in various parts of the build. It gives us a real world view of what a build will take to complete.

RM1SepEx

01-18-2015, 01:29 PM

Nice work, congrats on the short drive... I like the rotated turbo, IC etc... very clean looking install!

Scargo

01-18-2015, 01:43 PM

Woot, WOOT! That's cool! Yes, wrap will smoke for a good while and then, where it gets really hot, will become brittle as hell. It will disintegrate when moved.
I made hardwood soft-jaws for building my hoses. Not bad once you get the hang of it. I use a little grease to get everything together easily and not hurt the aluminum on aluminum interaction. There's a few tricks to keep the SS from fraying so much.
Good job guys!

xxguitarist

01-18-2015, 07:48 PM

Today we had to do some of the usual household chores, and cleaned up a LOT in the garage. After turning the car around, the side table was a bit in the way.

Otherwise, we modified the sparco slider brackets to get a bit lower in the car.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/62148ADF-2A82-4DF0-8E4B-D70D187D6F48_zps6gpynwis.jpg?t=1421541573

With this change, if we bolt the sliders directly to the X frame, I'll about pass the "broomstick test", and we have a few clicks of adjustment so that Tamra and I are both comfortable driving the car.

On that note, anyone see problems with bolting straight through that X area (under the seats)? Just use low-profile on top & bottom sides both?

Scargo

01-18-2015, 08:46 PM

Hindsight

01-18-2015, 08:51 PM

Mine is adjusted the same as yours (full up in front and full down in back). With the stock fuel tank, I don't believe my seat will clear the rear firewall. I need to put that firewall back in temporarily to make sure bit if it fits, it will be VERY close. Probably have to come down a notch or two in the front on mine. YMMV though.

Tamra

01-18-2015, 08:52 PM

Thanks everyone! We have been having a blast, and learning a ton.

Here's a time lapse leading up to the start last night:

http://youtu.be/dPorP-Q5WsE

Tamra

01-18-2015, 08:56 PM

Looking at your image I see that the rear is at the bottom-most hole. Do you still have room underneath the seat shell to lower it more? If so you could create a new rear hole; even if you need to make a special spacer shim for each side.
Then you could weld-in 3/16" plates that straddles the X and bolt directly to them. Otherwise I would weld in anti-crush sleeves (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?16630-Hazards-of-weakening-the-frame-by-drilling-holes&p=183888&viewfull=1#post183888) in the X member for your mount holes.
While it may be a moot point for autocross, I have concerns about bolting directly to the X member, as-is, for street, highway or track use.

We actually added that hole, and we can't go any lower before the seat hits the rail. We'll look into reinforcing - thanks!

Mine is adjusted the same as yours (full up in front and full down in back). With the stock fuel tank, I don't believe my seat will clear the rear firewall. I need to put that firewall back in temporarily to make sure bit if it fits, it will be VERY close. Probably have to come down a notch or two in the front on mine. YMMV though.

We set in the upper firewall piece since it is not permanently mounted yet, and it seemed like it cleared, but barely. I'm sure if the seat was shaped slightly differently it would hit. I guess we lucked out with the Sparco Corsa's. With the seat all the way back, it is about perfect for Andrew, and all the way forward is perfect for me (only about 1" of difference though!)

Harley818

01-20-2015, 10:46 PM

Just wondering...... why does Andrew get to do all the driving in the vids?

Tamra

01-20-2015, 11:20 PM

Don't worry, I get first official go-kart drive when it happens in the next few weeks :) (Plus if anything went wrong I wanted it to be his fault ;p)

Good trade off I think :)

xxguitarist

01-21-2015, 07:45 PM

We picked up a pair of mufflers from Amazon. Both are inexpensive, both are small, and both shipped quickly!
Dynomax 24250 Race Mini Bullet Muffler and Cherry Bomb 7428 Extreme Muffler.

The Dynomax is a straight-through, with glass pack around it. Alone, it didn't seem to do much at all. Not sure if it was aiding the Cherry Bomb. The latter did do a bit, it took most of the harsh tone off of the exhaust, to the point that I think we could idle for a while to get the coolant burped mid-day. It's 7:30 right now, so I kept things pretty quick. We use air tools enough in the evening.

Obviously the routing needs to change, we'll likely tuck them against each other with a 90 towards the passenger rear wheel, a 180 around to the other muffler, then a 90 back out the tail. The Dynomax is the same size as a high-flow cat we found, so for inspection they'll be exchanged.

Now the part you actually wanted to see (click through for higher res & slightly better sound quality):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X9nazuFVrM

Erik W. Treves

01-21-2015, 07:47 PM

I like the hugs after the first drive/go-kart out of the garage :) I can't think of a better way to celebrate! you guys are cruising!! great job!

JeromeS13

01-21-2015, 10:13 PM

I ended up using a single Vibrant 3" muffler. On first startup, it's pretty loud. However, after the car warms up, it's really not THAT bad. The exhaust note usually calms down a bit after it's fully warmed up.

Tamra

01-22-2015, 07:28 AM

I like the hugs after the first drive/go-kart out of the garage :) I can't think of a better way to celebrate! you guys are cruising!! great job!

We were pretty excited :) Thank you!

I ended up using a single Vibrant 3" muffler. On first startup, it's pretty loud. However, after the car warms up, it's really not THAT bad. The exhaust note usually calms down a bit after it's fully warmed up.

3" is the inlet and outlet side, I'm assuming? What is the overall length? Ours are both 9" long (and could be cut down a bit more if necessary), the same as our cat.

Tamra

01-25-2015, 11:25 PM

Update from this weekend:

We've been working on a solution for our shifter. We were not very happy with the feel, so we've decided to run the cables straight back to the transmission. Andrew is currently working on a bell crank solution using CAD and we hope to have a prototype within the next two weeks. We are also ordering shorter cables. If this goes as we hope, this might be a package we could offer to other builders looking for a more economical solution to improve their shift feel.

In the meantime, we mounted our shifter today. With reversing its direction, it puts first and 2nd nearly straight up and down (vs in the wiper stalk and your lap in the FFR orientation). Fifth is pretty far toward the passenger, but I guess only as far as it would have been toward the driver in the other orientation! We also low mounted it. It does not require any modifications as long as the bottom panel is not on - just slide it up underneath. It will not be easily removable once the panel is riveted in place. We cut thick spacers and used 5" long bolts.

You can sort of see in this picture the aluminum strap we also put underneath the shifter that we are using as a wire keeper. We don't want them to wander up and get caught in the shifter movement. We also mounted the shifter behind the center brace bars, which we found to be much more ergonomically pleasing. FFR has you mount it in front of the bars, and on the top. With running the shifter lines rearward, they have to be moved above the pivot of the handle (see clamp location - will be tapped later). Other than cutting the center console hole further back due to us mounting the shifter behind the cross brace, we could theoretically do no further modifications. However, we will likely raise the console an inch or two so we can have an even straighter path back to the transmission with the shifter cables. We will also need to find a solution for the e-brake, since it interferes with our shifter being mounted further back.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/72C86BE6-3E66-4502-9F8B-4BF3AF22546D_zpsbhrsqunu.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/72C86BE6-3E66-4502-9F8B-4BF3AF22546D_zpsbhrsqunu.jpg.html)

We also started to run the AWIC lines. 1" hose to the side, then an aluminum tube similar to the FFR coolant tube, followed by more 1" hose up to the AWIC radiator. 1" is probably a little overkill, but it'll work.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/0367B78D-4D98-41E9-9EBF-44E606905132_zpsbybwdvnl.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/0367B78D-4D98-41E9-9EBF-44E606905132_zpsbybwdvnl.jpg.html)

We currently have them both ran down the passenger side (weight balance! :p). We think these should clear the body panels. Anyone further along see any reason we can't go through this hole in the dead pedal?
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/E61F39EB-8649-44A2-8ABB-36416AFBAAF8_zpshdquyg0a.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/E61F39EB-8649-44A2-8ABB-36416AFBAAF8_zpshdquyg0a.jpg.html)

This morning we went and visited with Glyn (Scargo) for a bit. Wow does he have some awesome stuff going on over there with his 818, and what a beautiful garage (and home) he has. We borrowed a Spin Tech muffler from him to try it against our other smaller ones we had picked up. Here's a video of it with a cold start, and once the engine was heated up (quite a lot of sound difference!), including some revs. What do you guys think of the mufflers?
The Spin Tech would be very hard to fit. We would have to go up and over the transmission with it, and then exit on the other side. With the Cherry Bomb (red one) and the Mini Bullet, we can do a 90 out of the downpipe, fit the cat/mini bullet (both 9"), a 180, fit the Cherry Bomb, and then a 90 straight out the back near the transmission. We have to get sound down enough to meet 100 db at 50 ft.

http://youtu.be/zGFZnKQXfGU

We also tried to burp the coolant today. However, we could not get the engine up to operating temperature enough to open the thermostat before it would begin to idle rough and die (after running out of gas... again... 5 gallons is not enough apparently). Our Cobb accessport registered about 200 degrees for the coolant temp (and the dash gauge was right at 1/2 way), then it would cut out and die. After cleaning our idle control valve, code P1507 went away. We were left with P0037 (relating to the rear 02 sensor - probably due to no cat), and P0172 (running rich), as well as a a low wastegate code (probably due to the new turbo?). We also data logged and so we should be able to see what happened right before the car died. We're not sure why it would idle so smoothly just until the temp got up mid-way, then die.

Tamra

01-25-2015, 11:26 PM

Last but not least, here's a time lapse of the last week or so:

http://youtu.be/sra8bg5bjmw

Ellimist

01-26-2015, 01:12 AM

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/72C86BE6-3E66-4502-9F8B-4BF3AF22546D_zpsbhrsqunu.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/72C86BE6-3E66-4502-9F8B-4BF3AF22546D_zpsbhrsqunu.jpg.html)

Is that a coolant/water light going through the pedal box area? I guess there's still panels that'll cover that?

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/E61F39EB-8649-44A2-8ABB-36416AFBAAF8_zpshdquyg0a.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/E61F39EB-8649-44A2-8ABB-36416AFBAAF8_zpshdquyg0a.jpg.html)

I see the 1" in the middle (above the coolant line), but the tube on the top looks bigger than the 1" - maybe just the camera angle?

http://youtu.be/zGFZnKQXfGU

IMO, the tone of the Spin Tech sounds better. I may be missing something, but seems like the Spin Tech could fit well with a different down pipe configuration: a "level pipe" a 120deg bend to point straight back, and the muffler's output would be ready to be extended straight out the back.

Not sure why it does right when it should be "happy" (i.e., op temp) - good luck!

Ellimist

01-26-2015, 01:17 AM

Last but not least, here's a time lapse of the last week or so:

Switched from alternative/rock to classical, eh? Hard to tell from the video but looks like Adam BARELY passes the broomstick test?...tough to know for sure without a helmet on.

Harley818

01-26-2015, 02:31 AM

Hi Andrew and Tamra,
Did you consider this muffler from Autoanything.com.

http://www.autoanything.com/exhausts-mufflers/bbk-vari-tune-adjustable-performance-muffler

It has a variable adjustment cone to adjust the amount of exhaust going through the full muffler.
I don't know how well it works, but since you are playing and adjusting to get the right sound.. you might want to check this out.
I might consider it as a trial just to see what difference it makes.
I think your square one is too soft, but the others sound good.

I was just trying to burp my system today too. I let the temp climb to the 2/3 mark, then shut it down, but it kept idling well the whole time. Took more coolant as it cooled down. Metalmaker gave me some suggestions on my thread.
He said to unbolt the rad, lift it up so that the coolant burps out of the degas tank. If I recall, you have the fixed pipes so this may not be possible.

Tamra

01-26-2015, 08:44 AM

Is that a coolant/water light going through the pedal box area? I guess there's still panels that'll cover that?

I see the 1" in the middle (above the coolant line), but the tube on the top looks bigger than the 1" - maybe just the camera angle?

IMO, the tone of the Spin Tech sounds better. I may be missing something, but seems like the Spin Tech could fit well with a different down pipe configuration: a "level pipe" a 120deg bend to point straight back, and the muffler's output would be ready to be extended straight out the back.

Not sure why it does right when it should be "happy" (i.e., op temp) - good luck!
Yup, that's the coolant line (you are talking about the corrugated hose, right?). Our dead pedal will cover it, but we left it off until we were sure that the awic hoses were going to fit without modification. We'll install those permanently next. The AWIC lines are both 1", but they are soft sided and so slightly squished going through there. Since they are both oversize for what the AWIC recommends, we're not too worried if flow is slightly restricted in that area.

As for the Spintech, if we put it in that orientation we would have no space to put our o2 sensors. It might be possible, but it'd be difficult due to its length. It would take up pretty much the entire space from the turbo to the back of the car. Also, we have to have a cat for inspection, and there'd be no place for it unless we put the muffler over the top of the transmission and did some bends to find a place for it.

Switched from alternative/rock to classical, eh? Hard to tell from the video but looks like Adam BARELY passes the broomstick test?...tough to know for sure without a helmet on.

Andrew :) would not have passed the broomstick test until we tilted the seats back. Now, if he sits very upright, his hair brushes the board placed between the windshield and the roll bar (which means a helmet would be above). But, if he sits relaxed or slightly down, he has maybe 2". It's a tight fit. Unfortunately we do need to keep the sliders due to us both driving the car, else he could get another 1/2 or 3/4".

Hi Andrew and Tamra,
Did you consider this muffler from Autoanything.com.

http://www.autoanything.com/exhausts-mufflers/bbk-vari-tune-adjustable-performance-muffler

It has a variable adjustment cone to adjust the amount of exhaust going through the full muffler.
I don't know how well it works, but since you are playing and adjusting to get the right sound.. you might want to check this out.
I might consider it as a trial just to see what difference it makes.
I think your square one is too soft, but the others sound good.

I was just trying to burp my system today too. I let the temp climb to the 2/3 mark, then shut it down, but it kept idling well the whole time. Took more coolant as it cooled down. Metalmaker gave me some suggestions on my thread.
He said to unbolt the rad, lift it up so that the coolant burps out of the degas tank. If I recall, you have the fixed pipes so this may not be possible.

I can't find the dimensions on that muffler anywhere. It sounds like an interesting design though!

On the coolant, we couldn't burp ours since the thermostat didn't even open in the engine for the coolant to start flowing. It would just hit halfway then the idle would start to fluctuate and then it'd cut out. We'll try to look at the data log later today. Unfortunately, we also don't have the turbo coolant tank anymore since our turbo is oil cooled, so that nice high point is not available for use.

RM1SepEx

01-26-2015, 10:23 AM

Andrew, Tamra, your shift cables are going to be tortured getting up over the tank, are you revising the bulkhead mounts?

Bob_n_Cincy

01-26-2015, 10:50 AM

Tamra,
I'm not sure your side sails will fit with your AWIC hoses above the frame bar.
Bob

Ellimist

01-26-2015, 11:01 AM

Ya, that's probably why one of the 1" looks bigger - squished a little. BTW, why the oversized lines? Just might as well for future expansion?

AZPete

01-26-2015, 12:17 PM

I don't think you'll have a problem as long as you stay less than 5 inches from the bottom of the frame. Here are my heater hoses running through the left side dead pedal and I now have my side sails on with no problem. There's lots of room to the outer side, just stay under 5 inches.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/AZPeteCobra/DSCN3610_1.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/AZPeteCobra/media/DSCN3610_1.jpg.html)

xxguitarist

01-26-2015, 02:20 PM

Andrew, Tamra, your shift cables are going to be tortured getting up over the tank, are you revising the bulkhead mounts?
They'll be mounting to a bulkhead sheetmetal bracket that will attach to the center console bars, so the curves should be pretty mild to get over the gas tank.

Tamra,
I'm not sure your side sails will fit with your AWIC hoses above the frame bar.
Bob
Thanks, this was the area we were concerned about. It'll be tight to fit them through the same area as the coolant hose.

Anyone have the panels on who can have a look?

Ya, that's probably why one of the 1" looks bigger - squished a little. BTW, why the oversized lines? Just might as well for future expansion?

It's not much extra weight from water volume, and the larger lines should allow for a little less head loss throughout the system.

RM1SepEx

01-26-2015, 03:15 PM

They'll be mounting to a bulkhead sheetmetal bracket that will attach to the center console bars, so the curves should be pretty mild to get over the gas tank. That's good, the plastic mounts suck anyways but won't that torque those drop down tubes and bolts? It won't be as rigid as you might like...

Jaime

01-26-2015, 07:09 PM

Thanks, this was the area we were concerned about. It'll be tight to fit them through the same area as the coolant hose.

Anyone have the panels on who can have a look?

I ran one over the bar and one under, next to the coolant tube. The top one was a very tight fit. I couldn't have fit both over the bar.

Tamra

01-26-2015, 08:41 PM

That's good, the plastic mounts suck anyways but won't that torque those drop down tubes and bolts? It won't be as rigid as you might like...

With loose bolts it was shockingly rigid already. We did use very thick walled circular spacers that were a tight fit in the plastic housing as well. If it turns out to be a problem, we have a tig machine on the way and Andrew can weld them onto the bars.

I ran one over the bar and one under, next to the coolant tube. The top one was a very tight fit. I couldn't have fit both over the bar.

Thank you, that is very helpful!

Also, I uploaded our data log. We realized we did not log the AFR or the correction numbers. However, we had them visible on the screen while the car was running and the AFR was sitting around 12 with the correction at -25. We are not very knowledgeable on how to read the data log, but we think that means our car was running pretty rich and the ECU was doing everything it could to lean it out. Can you guys see anything else from the log?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9iTRiqsxsDTdGE5ODJqbm5INEE/view?usp=sharing

STiPWRD

01-26-2015, 09:02 PM

Also, I uploaded our data log. We realized we did not log the AFR or the correction numbers. However, we had them visible on the screen while the car was running and the AFR was sitting around 12 with the correction at -25. We are not very knowledgeable on how to read the data log, but we think that means our car was running pretty rich and the ECU was doing everything it could to lean it out. Can you guys see anything else from the log?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9iTRiqsxsDTdGE5ODJqbm5INEE/view?usp=sharing
Were you reading one of the stock narrowband sensors or were you using a wideband O2? An AFR of 12 is pretty rich at idle but if it was being read by a stock O2 sensor, it may have been even lower since those things are not accurate below 12. 25% correction is also rather high. Did you upgrade your injectors? If so, did you rescale them in the ECU?

Tamra

01-26-2015, 09:17 PM

We were using the stock o2 sensors to keep the computer happy. We do have a wideband and we will plug it in next time. We upgraded to ID1000's and we received a startup tune that should have accounted for them. However, we agree, it seemed like it was running too rich and so we emailed EFI to get an updated map.

Weird thing was it was idling very very good right up til it hit operating temp, then started fluctuating all over the place and died. You can see from the muffler videos posted a few above that it was idling nicely. Right after the "warm engine" video, the car started fluctuating and died within minutes. We did not capture it on video.

Note, the log posted was not from a start. It was started after the car was running (and could have potentially been close to operating temp), through when it died.

STiPWRD

01-26-2015, 11:36 PM

I'm baffled as well about the car dying like that, sorry I can't think of too many reasons why. Just keep trouble shooting and data logging. The rich AFR could be related to the injectors, a bad MAF sensor, restricted air flow or some other reasons (hopefully electrical). You may also want to try and measure the exhaust manifold temps at each of the 4 pipes leaving the heads to see if all 4 cylinders are running. Us an infrared thermometer. Maybe it's a bad spark plug.

metalmaker12

01-27-2015, 04:14 PM

If it's getting worse at warmup than I am suspect the afr ( 02) and maff. something's off in the metering of the air, but your map should be good for this

So I suspect the iac delete is your issue and you have to adjust idle manually to get it not to die. Total warmup is at 195 degrees and prior to that with the iac removed it might be ok at first, but once the 02 heats up and thermo the ecu is adding the recommend fuel but the iac with a delete is not. I always leave the Iac cause it takes fine adjustment to get it to run right. Try the idle screw, but everyone I know with this mod has your issue. This is less of an issue in the warmer weather, but it seems to be a constant adjustment from what I have seen.

What's idle at warm up 300-500, 500-1000, than back and forth? Than low at it dies.

xxguitarist

01-27-2015, 04:50 PM

metalmaker12

01-27-2015, 05:54 PM

Tamra

01-27-2015, 06:13 PM

But your not running coolant to it correct.

correct

Tamra

01-27-2015, 06:54 PM

But your not running coolant to it correct. It should be fine either way if you retained the iac

Could be a vacum/boost leak

Maff or 02 issue, but you have no codes correct

Have you logged at idle and what's your afr

Also check if your coolant system is fully bled, cause that can cause your idle to act iffy

For the vacuum leak, what would be a symptom? It seemed like the boost kept a relatively consistent vacuum number during the data log. That is counting on the ecu for that log. We have a real wideband 02 and boost gauge that we will have hooked up for the next run.
We have a code relating to the rear 02 (p0037).
We logged at idle (see link here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9iTRiqsxsDTdGE5ODJqbm5INEE/view?usp=sharing)), but did not capture the AFR. It was hovering around 12 with a correction of -25.
We were not able to bleed the coolant system because we could not get it up to operating temp enough to get the thermostat to open and let it start flowing. Every time it would hit about 200 degrees, the car would die.

metalmaker12

01-27-2015, 08:15 PM

I will look at log tomorrow when I have some time. So it turns off just prior to fully warming up?
Does it die even if you push the throttle a bit.

If it was electrical it would pop up right away, so if a code is coming on like two minutes after you clear it and run it might be a dirty or bad sensor etc. also you only need the front 02 sensor ( 02-05 wrx wiring correct). But I would not think this would turn it off. I gotta look at your log to see a trend.

Bob_n_Cincy

01-27-2015, 08:25 PM

Tamra and Andrew

I'm a visual person so I had to plot out your data.
This is the first 10 second of running
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38154&d=1422407922

This is the last 10 seconds before it stalled
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=38155&d=1422407924

I'm by no means an expert a reading these. Your timing is bouncing all over the place. In the good old days the timing was just advance by vacuum. You should have a solid vacuum at idle.
Maybe someone else will chime in.
Bob

Harley818

01-28-2015, 03:18 AM

metalmaker12

01-28-2015, 06:28 AM

Nice job bob, just saved me some time. Looks like ign timing is being affected. Could very well be a vacum leak guys, vacum should be steady -18 to -22 at idle. I would start there

Bob_n_Cincy

01-28-2015, 10:03 AM

Those are awesome visuals Bob.
Maybe a dumb question, but I've never done data logging or analysis but as an engineer the graphs tell the story.
How do I get at data log. Do I need the Cobb V3? or what?

Hi Harley,
I believe Tamra logged the data using Romraider and Tactrix cable ( correction Cobb V3). She posted the data in post 342 above. I just put it in an Excell chart.
Bob

Tamra

01-28-2015, 10:16 AM

It was actually a Cobb V3. We are still learning how to use it and will hopefully get a more informative log this weekend, assuming our new tune arrives before then.

We will check for vacuum leaks - we have a few ideas of places that haven't been permanently installed yet (the Forge BOV for example did not have a gasket yet). We'll try to button those up and give it another shot on Sunday. Thank you everyone for your help and ideas.

metalmaker12

01-28-2015, 11:26 AM

No prob, here to help. I have been there and it can be frustrating, but you will get it.

Kurk818

01-28-2015, 12:32 PM

Speedy G

01-28-2015, 12:54 PM

Mmmm... was the MAF hooked up? I see vacuum, but MAF voltage doesn't change after the car engine is turned off.

Bob_n_Cincy

01-28-2015, 01:16 PM

A great way I've found to find vacuum leaks is to use an unlit propane torch and move it around all sources of vacuum while the engine is running. If the RPMs increase, you've isolated your area of where a leak is present.

I assume you do this with the flame OFF.

Mmmm... was the MAF hooked up? I see vacuum, but MAF voltage doesn't change after the car engine is turned off.

The car wasn't turned off, it just stalled. So maf still was outputting a signal.

metalmaker12

01-28-2015, 05:22 PM

Yeah key was still in the on position. And to see vacum is great if it is correct amount. Let's keep trying to help em.

And yes that's a good way to check for vacum leaks. I place a 1/4 foot long hose adapted to the torch to get in tight places. A gauge is also good way to know where you stand.

Bob, it is good practice to burn your car to the ground with an open flame! Lol

philly15

01-28-2015, 09:39 PM

out of curiosity, do you have coolant in the car?

Tamra

01-28-2015, 09:45 PM

We were attempting to burp the coolant. We have coolant, but probably not enough yet due to air bubbles.

philly15

01-28-2015, 10:35 PM

im curious if having too much air in your cooling system is causing ect sensor issues. The ECT sensor is an input for fueling, it is possible that could cause an issue once the engine starts to become warmer. The data in that log seems fairly consistent other than the timing obviously. However right before it dies, it does seem to start to lean out quick. I'd check for vacuum issues first as stated, maybe get some actual AFR and vacuum readings as well and go from there, but i wouldnt over look the coolant thing either.

Harley818

01-29-2015, 02:37 AM

OK good about the data logging.
I'm planning to buy a Cobb V3 but haven't done it yet.
Now I'm kicking myself for not buying it as the Canadian dollar just plummeted again...... now worth 80 cents of your dollar.....
Anyone have an Cobb V3 2002 they want to get rid of?

And Andrew and Tamra - I like the shifter knob. Where did you get it? Hope you don't mind if I copy.

metalmaker12

01-29-2015, 10:35 AM

We were attempting to burp the coolant. We have coolant, but probably not enough yet due to air bubbles.

Have you done Wayne's coolant mod, and used his self burping instructions ( pick up the radiator with degas tank open till coolant spills out of degas tank) not running!!! This will help. I bet the coolant is your issue.

While running!!! You can also use the subaru infamous yellow coolant funnel to burp, make sure it's the high point and remove once thermo opens and cap degas tank. Pm if you need better instructions.

You should have done Wayne's mod and used his method since you don't have to run it.
But to fully burp the funnel seems to be best from my experience with the 818.

3 -3.5 gallons with a bigger radiator is the amount of coolant you should have in system
2.5 with oem
What did you do with turbo coolant line?? I gotta see your setup again to see if something jumps out at me.

philly15

01-29-2015, 10:47 AM

Tamra

01-29-2015, 10:51 AM

Have you done Wayne's coolant mod, and used his self burping instructions ( pick up the radiator with degas tank open till coolant spills out of degas tank) not running!!! This will help. I bet the coolant is your issue.

While running!!! You can also use the subaru infamous yellow coolant funnel to burp, make sure it's the high point and remove once thermo opens and cap degas tank. Pm if you need better instructions.

You should have done Wayne's mod and used his method since you don't have to run it.
But to fully burp the funnel seems to be best from my experience with the 818.

3 -3.5 gallons with a bigger radiator is the amount of coolant you should have in system
2.5 with oem
What did you do with turbo coolant line?? I gotta see your setup again to see if something jumps out at me.

I don't think Wayne's mod will work for us. Our turbo is oil cooled only, so we deleted the coolant tank. Any other ideas? lol

I'm also curious why more people don't use a vac n fill tool for the coolant. It pulls the entire system into vacuum and replaces it with coolant. I used it to do my car and everything was fine, I also use it at work all the time for cars that are a pain to bleed never had any issues after, and it takes less than a minute to do the whole process. The tool is also like $40

We'll have to check into this. Thanks!

STiPWRD

01-29-2015, 11:35 AM

I don't think Wayne's mod will work for us. Our turbo is oil cooled only, so we deleted the coolant tank. Any other ideas? lol

This may be the reason you're having issues. Did you keep the overflow reservoir? There needs to be a place for the vapor to condense and turn back into liquid otherwise the vapor pockets could cause local hot spots. You may want to install the coolant tank temporarily and plug the turbo coolant lines and see if that helps.

metalmaker12

01-29-2015, 11:43 AM

Guys, I don't know anyone that has had coolant system burping success without Wayne's mod and the degas tank on the 818.
This is most likely it. You can use a smaller resovoir, perrin and others make them. There is other ways around it too, but that's on wrx configurations, this is way different since the coolant must travel so far.

metalmaker12

01-29-2015, 11:45 AM

I don't think Wayne's mod will work for us. Our turbo is oil cooled only, so we deleted the coolant tank. Any other ideas? lol

We'll have to check into this. Thanks!

I used the vacum coolant thing, and still had to burp the 818 with the yellow funnel. This setup is harder to burp than any other car I have ever worked on.

wleehendrick

01-29-2015, 11:58 AM

I'm also curious why more people don't use a vac n fill tool for the coolant. It pulls the entire system into vacuum and replaces it with coolant. I used it to do my car and everything was fine, I also use it at work all the time for cars that are a pain to bleed never had any issues after, and it takes less than a minute to do the whole process. The tool is also like $40

We'll have to check into this. Thanks!

I'm also interested. I did some searching, and Vac N Fill usually refers to this GM tool:

http://images.fieroforum.com/pffimages2/fig1_sm_1.jpg

But it's almost a grand, if you can find it! I'd jump on a $40 tool that makes it easy;can you provide link or part number? Thanks!

philly15

01-29-2015, 01:28 PM

I have the uview airlift 55000. It jumped way up in price recently. It's on Amazon for $118. I paid 43.45 shipped 3 months ago. It's the exact same one snap on rebrands for almost $400. Someone must have caught on and raised the price! Still decent though and I'm a technician so I use mine a ton.

flynntuna

01-29-2015, 01:59 PM

Amazon's price is reasonable, found these with a quick search...

http://tools.ntxtools.com/coolant-vacuum-refill

D Clary

01-29-2015, 03:20 PM

metalmaker12

01-29-2015, 03:39 PM

I used mine and it did not totally fill the system. I ended up using a large screw on funnel on the rear cap, filled until coolant came out of the front cap. Then closed the front and kept the funnel full. If you squeeze the rubber portions of the radiator hoses it speeds up the process, but patience will work. This is with Wayne's coolant plumbing.

Ditto, the airlift etc will not completly work with 818, you will need funnel or bleeder etc

Buzz Skyline

01-29-2015, 04:23 PM

You could still do Wayne's mod, but run the tube from the nipple to a coolant reservoir bottle instead. That would essentially duplicate the way the OEM reservoir bottle works in a WRX, I think.

metalmaker12

01-29-2015, 04:37 PM

No, that's an overflow, not a pressurized tank.

philly15

01-29-2015, 10:48 PM

I used mine and it did not totally fill the system. I ended up using a large screw on funnel on the rear cap, filled until coolant came out of the front cap. Then closed the front and kept the funnel full. If you squeeze the rubber portions of the radiator hoses it speeds up the process, but patience will work. This is with Wayne's coolant plumbing.

thats extremely odd, i filled mine capped it and it has run fine since no other bleeding required, no overheating issues. i also use it every other day or so at work and have never had to do any additional steps.

Bob_n_Cincy

01-30-2015, 12:45 AM

thats extremely odd, i filled mine capped it and it has run fine since no other bleeding required, no overheating issues. i also use it every other day or so at work and have never had to do any additional steps.

Philly15
Are you talking about a cooling system on a 818 or a WRX. The two cooing systems are dramatically different. The 818 is one of the few cars the have 2 prominent high spots.

This is a picture of an mr2 Mid engine cooling system. Similar to an 818. There are bleeds valves on the front radiator and also on the heater core. You have to open those valves to fill the system.
Bob

38208

metalmaker12

01-30-2015, 07:27 AM

thats extremely odd, i filled mine capped it and it has run fine since no other bleeding required, no overheating issues. i also use it every other day or so at work and have never had to do any additional steps.

On an 818?? Or wrx, big difference. They work on normal cars very easily, but a system with two high points and a weird bend on a lower hose that goes back vertical changes things completly.

Buzz Skyline

01-30-2015, 07:32 AM

No, that's an overflow, not a pressurized tank.

You're right. It wouldn't work. Unless you install something like this

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Hoffman-401497-77-1-8-Straight-Water-Vent-Valve-11743000-p?gclid=CPjdpuDdu8MCFe7m7AodowQAbQ

philly15

01-30-2015, 09:28 AM

On an 818?? Or wrx, big difference. They work on normal cars very easily, but a system with two high points and a weird bend on a lower hose that goes back vertical changes things completly.

yes on my 818 I sold all my other subarus

Bob_n_Cincy

01-30-2015, 09:38 AM

yes on my 818 I sold all my other subarus
Hi Philly15,
Great to hear about another 818 on the road, I didn't know about yours.
Did you do any modification to your 818 cooling system.
Are you filling from the Radiator cap or the filler tank?
Bob

metalmaker12

01-30-2015, 10:43 AM

yes on my 818 I sold all my other subarus

This is good news, sorry I didn't even know your were running yet. Great to see you are. maybe I needed more psi added to vacum. I think I applied 20-25psi but it wouldn't draw all the way to zero and left room for air, which needed to be removed to not have any air pockets. I just put the yellow funnel on and ran it and the rest bled out. What did you set yours too, what size radiator are you using etc. I filled from the degas tank.

philly15

01-30-2015, 07:24 PM

This is good news, sorry I didn't even know your were running yet. Great to see you are. maybe I needed more psi added to vacum. I think I applied 20-25psi but it wouldn't draw all the way to zero and left room for air, which needed to be removed to not have any air pockets. I just put the yellow funnel on and ran it and the rest bled out. What did you set yours too, what size radiator are you using etc. I filled from the degas tank.

Yea it took me two tries, it helped to have as little coolant as possible, the first time I had too much coolant yet and it didn't pull vacuum well. Also im assuming this is common sense, but I blocked off the relief hoses to the over flows, I have one on my radiator and the stock one off the degas tank. I also had the front of the car raised when I did this, and pulled vacuum from the port on my radiator. As far as my cooling system goes it is how factory five said to run it, except instead of the stock hoses for the radiator and engine sides, I used the hard rubber hoses with the metal inside you can get from pretty much any parts store. I pulled vacuum as far as the gauge went and let it sit for 20 min or so to make sure there were not any leaks. The directions say it only needs to sit for 20 seconds or so, but I wanted to be sure I had no leaks whatsoever. Then I just let it fill as per the instructions of the vac n fill. After that I let it run for a good 30 min or so to be sure it was good. It has ran a few times since then as well but no overheating.

Tamra

02-01-2015, 10:18 PM

Weekend update! Got our exhaust welded up! Exit will likely be center, dual tip, but that is still to be completed. The wastegates also need to be plumbed in for inspection. The smaller muffler has v-bands so we can swap it out with a cat easily. There's not much room to work with in the 818, so we had to get a little creative.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/49089661-F1D4-4557-A5F4-1D19609187B6_zpsu9ekhrin.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/49089661-F1D4-4557-A5F4-1D19609187B6_zpsu9ekhrin.jpg.html)

We also received our new seat belts. They are Schroth Profi II ASM FE, the ONLY completely street legal harnesses that will pass inspection (FMVSS 209 on the tag), because they have a red button with a "push" symbol on it similar to a regular seat belt (emergency personnel can easily figure out how to unbuckle you). They are sold as a 4 point with an optional sub strap to make it a 5-point or 6-point harness. We picked up the sub strap to make it 5 point. These do have anti-submarine technology and are safe for use as a 4 point (and also why they are DOT approved). They are also a bit pricey at $370 each with the sub-straps to make them 5 point, but worth it in our opinion. The push button makes them pretty easy to get in and out of too as an added bonus.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/06296E38-1B8D-43CA-BA4D-55C4A4E04E5F_zpsw9ngq7ff.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/06296E38-1B8D-43CA-BA4D-55C4A4E04E5F_zpsw9ngq7ff.jpg.html)

We just test fit them to get an idea of if we would need to use the harness bar we got from FFR. They actually seem pretty good just strapped on to the frame bar. What do you guys think? My shoulders do sit below the seat belt pass throughs, which is not ideal. I might end up with a cushion to get to the ideal position.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/A5AC9DBF-B873-44CC-9F6A-91F633C0CA20_zpspeequq21.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/A5AC9DBF-B873-44CC-9F6A-91F633C0CA20_zpspeequq21.jpg.html)

We also got the AWIC lines ran after welding a bead on our aluminum pipes. We tidied up the wiring harness, and bolted up our cruise control module (some of our autox events are a few hours away, and we decided it would be nice to have). We wrapped the wires in the engine bay, secured our brake lines every 18" per the CT DMV regs, and finished drilling the aluminum panel under the seats.

We are waiting on a McMaster order that got delayed due to the bad weather we are having, and then we will be able to finish our shifter modification. Our B&M shifter lines arrived and are very nice. They are racing lines and advertised to have less backlash, and after receiving them we can see what they mean. With multiple turns in them, they have less backlash than the FFR provided lines when pulled in a straight line. They are unfortunately not as short as we needed (we needed 7', which is a very uncommon size, so we had to get 8'), so they will have some extra curves to get them out and around and back into position at the right length. However, despite the extra curves, the backlash is minimal and significantly improved. Plus, as an added bonus they won't be running under the intake manifold and so we won't have to try to wrap/shield them from the engine heat. These lines are not plug and play whatsoever, as we will have to modify both ends to make them work (wrong thread pitch on one, and the other side is an eye), in addition to designing a bell crank since we are running them straight back to the transmission rather than out and around the front of the car.

We also set up more logs on our Cobb V3 Accessport tonight, and also hooked up our Prosport AFR gauge with wideband sensor. We did not run the car very long, as the AFR gauge was maxing out at 10 (running VERY rich and smelled like it too). Our vacuum during running time averaged -8.01 psi (~16 hg), which is just shy of normal we believe. Since this is a freshly built, low compression motor and the rings are not seated yet, we would think this is pretty good. Anyone disagree?

Ignition timing was much steadier and averaged 18.7. Injector duty cycle 4.5%. MAF 11.6 g/s. RPM's 1400 (cold start).

We will be getting a modified tune very soon to correct the extremely rich AFR.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/datalog21_zps8949dbd7.png (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/datalog21_zps8949dbd7.png.html)

Link to log: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1clbayX_FEorlGLpTFXVBbXMfiDv7Yt7Mq0ENN2DBkls/edit?usp=sharing

Mechie3

02-01-2015, 11:06 PM

I had similar belts in my wrx when it got totaled. My back between my shoulders was sore if I sat with my elbows on my knees for more than 10 minutes for a month or two after. I liked them though.

metalmaker12

02-01-2015, 11:50 PM

Get your tune that's way to rich at idle to even run it. let's see what happens with tune. You can't break it in correctly until you drive it so I would just wait till it's not snowland. -9.7 on the ap or ~18-22 on gauge is normal. Since the rings are not seated than this is what your experiencing I would assume.

Nice belts!!

Scargo

02-02-2015, 07:07 AM

I suspect the seat cushion (or phone book... No, wait, they don't make them big anymore!) is what you need. You could move the seat's pass-through slots down some! That would be the classy way to do it. Of course that geometry only matters if you turn turtle. You're not going to do that!
Oh, that tortured exhaust!:o
It's looking good! Get EFI on the stick with that map!

Hindsight

02-02-2015, 10:15 PM

Since you bought different cables and are thinking about fabbing a belcrank, have you considered getting a used mr2 shifter off of eBay? They can be had cheap and are made for rear cable exit.

RM1SepEx

02-02-2015, 11:13 PM

They know, we are working it offline

xxguitarist

02-03-2015, 11:24 AM

Yep, we're working on using the FFR supplied shifter with modified.. everything else.

Hindsight

02-03-2015, 11:35 AM

Why not just use the entire mr2 shifter instead of the FFR one. Seems like it would be easier.

Frank818

02-03-2015, 11:41 AM

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/E61F39EB-8649-44A2-8ABB-36416AFBAAF8_zpshdquyg0a.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/E61F39EB-8649-44A2-8ABB-36416AFBAAF8_zpshdquyg0a.jpg.html)

Is there really enough room for the AWIC hoses to pass through in that location?

xxguitarist

02-03-2015, 11:42 AM

I don't think there's any reason that the existing one won't work. It'll just require a drilled & tapped hole, and a bracket.
We all have it, and it's "free", also not stuck trying to source something off a limited production car from years ago.

We'll see!

Mechie3

02-03-2015, 11:43 AM

If they're planning to market something and become a vendor then using the MR2 shifter means potential customers now have to source an MR2 shift assembly. While they've been on ebay quite frequently, there's certainly a limited market and parts you get are likely to need at least a little cleanup. This way, whatever they make, can simply be dropped into an 818 with no need to source parts from multiple places.

Tamra

02-03-2015, 11:49 AM

I ran one over the bar and one under, next to the coolant tube. The top one was a very tight fit. I couldn't have fit both over the bar.

Is there really enough room for the AWIC hoses to pass through in that location?

per Jaime's response above, we moved one under the bar next to the coolant line. Hopefully that will be enough.

If they're planning to market something and become a vendor then using the MR2 shifter means potential customers now have to source an MR2 shift assembly. While they've been on ebay quite frequently, there's certainly a limited market and parts you get are likely to need at least a little cleanup. This way, whatever they make, can simply be dropped into an 818 with no need to source parts from multiple places.

Exactly! :)

Frank818

02-03-2015, 11:51 AM

per Jaime's response above, we moved one under the bar next to the coolant line. Hopefully that will be enough.

Which means if I run one hose on each side I could make it over the bar (my hoses are 5/8, I believe yours are 3/4).

Tnx for that I'll keep it in mind.

Tamra

02-03-2015, 11:53 AM

Which means if I run one hose on each side I could make it over the bar (my hoses are 5/8, I believe yours are 3/4).

Tnx for that I'll keep it in mind.

Ours are actually 1" ID. They are bigger than necessary lol. You should have no problems I would think.

xxguitarist

02-03-2015, 11:53 AM

Ours are actually 1" ID hose, 1" OD aluminum pipes along the sides.

Tamra

02-03-2015, 11:54 AM

Ours are actually 1" ID hose, 1" OD aluminum pipes along the sides.

Jinx! :)

Tamra

02-08-2015, 08:49 PM

Well last monday we had some disappointing news... finally got the tune modified to run the car long enough to get up to temp, and found out our oil pressure was dropping to 10psi and probably would have kept going if we wouldn't have shut it off. We had our Prosport gauge hooked up, so we were worried that perhaps we had a bad sender. Switched to a STRI gauge and sender that we have for another car, and it verified that we were approaching dangerously low oil pressure. We also had a coolant leak at the water pump, which meant we had to drain the system in order to fix it. Ugh. I guess it worked out though, since we had to remove the coolant hoses to access the oil pump anyway...

We dug into the car and removed the plunger in our 10mm pump, assuming that our relief valve was stuck open. It didn't seem to have any problems, and the piston was sliding freely. Our assumption was that our pump just couldn't flow enough oil for our loose bearing clearances plus our journal bearing turbo with -4an unrestricted lines (recommended by Borg Warner).

We picked up an 11mm brand new Subaru pump today. We checked the plunger for any burrs and sanded it with fine sand paper (known problem on the 11mm pumps - the relief valve can be stuck open from the factory), and also added 4 shims to increase the bypass pressure. The shims don't affect idle oil pressure, but they do increase the psi point in which the pump starts bypassing the oil pressure at higher RPM's, reducing the risk of aeration (leads to sudden oil pressure loss). The 11mm pump has an oem 75psi bypass (vs 85 for the 10mm), and the more shims you add the higher the psi has to be before the bypass opens. This puts more pressure on the system overall, but with our high rev goals, it makes it safer and decreases the risk of aeration.

We decided against the 12mm pump because we read that it actually drops off over 6500 rpm (meaning the 11mm flows more oil than the 12mm after that point). We haven't seen any data on exactly how much each shim increases the bypass psi, so we are hoping/guessing that 4 is about right. Most people do 3, but with us increasing the red line, we figured 4 would be better.

We had to remove the timing belt to change the pump, unfortunately. We were a bit faster at installing the timing belt the 2nd time around though :) We installed the new pump (note: new pumps do not come with new seals, so that delayed us a day in order to get them). We disconnected the electrical connectors to the spark plugs and the fuel pump in order to avoid having the car fire up without priming the oil pump. We also removed the oil filter (can make it harder to prime the oil pump), and started turning over the engine until we saw oil gush out. Put the filter back on and turned over the engine until we saw 100psi on the gauge. Reconnected the spark plugs, and success! 25 psi of oil pressure at operating temperature!

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/247F1A3F-7CEE-4777-BBF2-0AA81058847D_zpsilhwnt9k.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/247F1A3F-7CEE-4777-BBF2-0AA81058847D_zpsilhwnt9k.jpg.html)

We did not expect to see our oil pressure increase from <10psi to 25 psi. Our suspicion is that either our relief valve in the 10mm pump was stuck open (although upon inspection it did not appear to be stuck), or that our 10mm pump was just worn out (donor car). The 11mm pump should not have increased our idle pressure that much. Regardless, it is better now!

We also came up with our own coolant burping solution. We added the equivalent of a faucet to our coolant crossover pipe. This would have been much easier to do BEFORE having the engine completed... as it was, we attached a piece of hose onto the end of our shop vac, sliced open about 4-5" of the hose at one end (basically creating a scooper), and slid it into the end. While we drilled and tapped, we just kept the vacuum running and it caught basically all of it.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/F652F9F4-A1BD-4563-AB78-7FE04BC2D340_zpsyrubqtud.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/F652F9F4-A1BD-4563-AB78-7FE04BC2D340_zpsyrubqtud.jpg.html)

As this is the high point of the engine and where all of the air passes through coming from the radiator, it worked like a charm. While filling the coolant from the radiator, we left the faucet open and kept filling until we saw coolant start to spill out of the hose we had running to a bucket, indicating that the engine was full of coolant. Once we started the car, we periodically opened it and it released air out. It worked flawlessly, and our only remaining bubble was actually at the radiator itself! Opening the cap, wiggling it back and forth a bit, squeezing the rubber connections on the radiator, and we got the air out of it too. HUGE success! Overall, we put in over 4.5 gallons, losing maybe 1/2 gallon to the burping process.

We ran the car for around 30 minutes, maybe longer. The temp would heat up to just over 200, and the radiator fans would kick in and cool it back to 190 in about 15-30 seconds. The oil pressure stayed steady at about 25psi at idle, 180 temp. What a relief!!!

We've also been hard at work on our rear facing shifter. We got the first in car prototype of the shifter side set up, using oilite bronze bushings and a bracket for the bolt on cables. It moves very smoothly with no binding. Andrew expects to finish the bellcrank and rear bracket this week, so we should have a finished shifter by next weekend.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/A03AD7A7-B3B8-438C-ADA6-93C9E73EEC44_zpsbawyiie6.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/A03AD7A7-B3B8-438C-ADA6-93C9E73EEC44_zpsbawyiie6.jpg.html)

http://youtu.be/LHYDpeoPwl4

It won't be long before we'll need to set up an appt with EFI Logics to get a real tune!

Scargo

02-08-2015, 09:15 PM

Very nice. Reminds me of my front-end with the C-clamps. ;)
I have a 12mm oil pump if you need it.. You guys are good...(doing your homework).

Hindsight

02-08-2015, 10:00 PM

Looking good. I feel guilty for starting my donor cars engine without priming the oil pump. It had been sitting in the auction lot for probably 6 to 9 months. It didnt even cross my mind... I was just so excited after all the wait to see if it would run.

On that coolant burp line... That is the same spot Wayne puts a fitting and permanently routes it to the degas tank. Is there any reason you chose to use the valve instead of having it go to the degas full time?

Looking forward to seeing the shifter all finished.

Tamra

02-08-2015, 10:38 PM

Thanks guys!

Hindsight - we don't have a degas tank since our turbo is oil cooled. We deleted it. I didn't realize Wayne had a fitting there with his mod.

metalmaker12

02-09-2015, 05:37 PM

Knew it was your coolant system, great!!

Tamra

02-09-2015, 05:43 PM

Knew it was your coolant system, great!!

It was actually most likely the tune that was preventing us from getting the car up to temp to even try to burp the cooling system... it was running too rich previously and was not happy. With a modified tune, the car idled fine and we were able to focus on fixing everything else lol.

xxguitarist

02-09-2015, 07:48 PM

Snow day, so I got some time to work on the rear half of the shifter. Plenty of improvement areas left, but this was a functional enough prototype to see what to change & make an actual sheet metal part next time.

http://youtu.be/GTkhX6VDSKM

Mechie3

02-09-2015, 08:57 PM

Nice work. :)

Bob_n_Cincy

02-09-2015, 10:53 PM

Nice job Andrew and Tamra,
I suspect a lot less backlash than before.
In any scientific experiment measurement is important.
You can measure the backlash as a percentage. Shift handle movement (right/left) while in 3rd gear as a percentage of the total movement from 1st to 5th.
That way you can quantify your improvement.

OR, You could just say, This feels so much better, and I did it.

Keep up the good work.
Bob

Ellimist

02-10-2015, 01:20 AM

Nice shifter!

Harley818

02-10-2015, 02:16 AM

nice work... shifter looks good.
After i read your work on shifter slop, I am now re-aligning mine hoping for smoother operation.

xxguitarist

02-10-2015, 12:28 PM

Thanks all,

Bob- We failed to get a measurement on the original setup, but at least we have the video that Tamra took to do a comparison.

Harley, Hope you have good luck optimizing the factory setup. There are areas to improve friction mostly, the backlash less so.

R.Spec

02-11-2015, 01:46 PM

Steering wheel and pedals!
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/6871FA79-7A03-4685-A42B-045E0174B623_zpswd041hid.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/6871FA79-7A03-4685-A42B-045E0174B623_zpswd041hid.jpg.html)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/6BE18E31-6BA5-43ED-A636-6419B3259640_zps5zt7rpx9.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/6BE18E31-6BA5-43ED-A636-6419B3259640_zps5zt7rpx9.jpg.html)

Did yours come with the reinforced metal piece for the brakes and steering column? If so when and how does that attach. Was I supposed to put it on before the firewall?

xxguitarist

02-11-2015, 02:42 PM

Did yours come with the reinforced metal piece for the brakes and steering column? If so when and how does that attach. Was I supposed to put it on before the firewall?

Yes, there's a separate bracket now for the pedals.. This needs to be bolted in place before the contoured front aluminum. IIRC it goes on with some of the low pan head socket cap screws. 1/4-20 maybe?

I think it's actually properly updated in the I rev manual.

Tamra

02-14-2015, 05:42 PM

I got what I asked for for Valentine's day... to drive our 818! I even got a little sideways in "Bug" and did a burnout... thanks to our snow day. If it wasn't for the snow, we could have taken him for a loop around the block.

http://youtu.be/PUC6Glbxea4

We will be spending the next two weeks cramming in some more details... engine break in session and low boost dyno tune session scheduled with EFI Logics for two weeks from now!

Scargo

02-14-2015, 07:24 PM

I knew you could drive! That's so cool.

Tamra

02-15-2015, 09:47 AM

Thanks Glyn! Hopefully 6 weeks from today I will show you my driving on the autox course in Bug :)

Hindsight

02-15-2015, 10:12 AM

Wow, so much snow! Hope you two get everything sorted for the first AutoX!

metalmaker12

02-15-2015, 02:04 PM

Thanks Glyn! Hopefully 6 weeks from today I will show you my driving on the autox course in Bug :)

6 weeks,, a little optimistic are you. We might be out of the snow machine by then, at least I hope.

Scargo

02-15-2015, 05:51 PM

I hope they're right. I have my first track day (north of them at Lime Rock) in the same time-frame. If it's too cool I may be running rain tires instead of my slicks...

RM1SepEx

02-15-2015, 07:21 PM

Looking great Tamra, where is the autox in 6 weeks?

Tamra

02-15-2015, 10:42 PM

The autocross is a local club, FCSCC, which is held only about 5 miles from our house. Low pressure and close by for a first outing. We'd better have everything sorted by then, since we have our first dyno session in 13 days!

Update:

We've got the shifter pretty well sorted out. We will be adding a few tabs to reinforce it to prevent some flexing (or go up a gauge of metal), but overall it feels really good. It is a significant improvement over the feeling with the FFR cables - no more guessing which gear, and a nice short throw. Our friend Tim, with the S2000 CR, said it's the only car he's seen with a shorter throw than his car... he loved the feel as well. The throw is adjustable in length as well.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/91758814-87D0-4DE3-9C3B-6DB45C898419_zps4h4muqgq.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/91758814-87D0-4DE3-9C3B-6DB45C898419_zps4h4muqgq.jpg.html)

Here it is in action, reverse is a little sticky when the car isn't running, but that's not the shifter:

http://youtu.be/MbmSNWh0-NY

When I backed it out of the garage yesterday, I was surprised at how easy it was to find gears. I thought it felt very good. Our placement under the console and behind the bar also put it in a very natural position.

Another pleasant surprise is that we are not going to have to modify our console much. Pretty much cutting out a hole for the new location and two cutouts for the shifter cables did the trick. Photos to come once we have it more finished. The e-brake looks like it will work in the FFR location put at a slight angle.

Once we get it a little more finalized, we will probably take an interest check and start working out pricing on the package.

We also bolted in the drivers seat. It was relatively stress free and straight forward. We believe the brackets are Sparco for a VW kit, per the person we purchased them from used. We are pretty sure the sliders are the standard Sparco ones, and the fit kit we didn't used was what pertained to a VW.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/03659979-B531-484A-A36C-9512DEBEC361_zpswdshutwj.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/03659979-B531-484A-A36C-9512DEBEC361_zpswdshutwj.jpg.html)

Finally, we also welded on brackets to mount the AWIC bracket (the new welder we picked up has been incredibly useful), started working on cutting and tacking the piping for the EWG's into the downpipe, and started on the center console. We also welded on brackets to mount the charcoal canister with (that sucker is ugly, but at least the mounting brackets are tidy).

I go back to working 9am-12am tomorrow, so it's up to Andrew to work on the car this week. I'm really hoping I can take Saturday the 28th off so I can be there for the dyno session. Fingers crossed.

chedda

02-16-2015, 11:17 AM

Looks great! Can't wait to see it on the dyno.

Frank818

02-16-2015, 04:45 PM

So jealous about the shifting brackets.

xxguitarist

02-20-2015, 09:47 AM

It's been a busy week of evenings in the garage, with less specific things to show for it than we might choose.

I've been spending a lot of time just getting things tucked into place, running gauge wiring, snugging up the AWIC lines, etc.

Last night I got the modified cross-brace about 90% done, I will still add some flat stock to increase the welded joint area between the diagonal and straight bars.
I also made a brace for the AWIC.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/8DEE6A00-4DD6-4B18-8346-6CCA7E42F952_zps0kma835y.jpg

Buzz Skyline

02-20-2015, 09:56 AM

You two have the best build.

xxguitarist

02-22-2015, 09:01 PM

Thanks Buzz!

This weekend we spent lots of hours working towards finishing the exhaust. Our dual external wastegates needed to be plumbed into the downpipe. Easy enough to say, but boy that was a lot of work.
The welder purchase is definitely paying for itself.

We had to get from these three outlets, into the exhaust before the mufflers.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/27e6b841-8c67-48ea-9b74-fb95ca076dfa_zps39c650e0.jpg

And here's how we did it...
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DEBB7310-C527-49C4-9DBF-3EE3F406DAE5_zps3mkngud1.jpg

More photos to come as soon as it's finished, currently I called it a night when it just needs the welds onto the downpipe. It's tacked as it sits.

We also mounted the AWIC pump and adjusted the location of the AWIC radiator.

Hindsight

02-22-2015, 09:32 PM

Looking very nice and very elaborate! What kind of welder did you get? I may have missed the post where you mentioned it.

metalmaker12

02-22-2015, 10:22 PM

Nice!!

xxguitarist

02-22-2015, 11:00 PM

Hindsight, I'm not actually sure if we did announce it. It's the APH AlphaTig 200 (http://www.amazon.com/AHP-AlphaTIG-200-Amp-Stick-Welder/dp/B00EL8UQH4/ref=sr_1_1?rps=1&ie=UTF8&qid=1424663241&sr=8-1&keywords=ahp+alpha+tig). Long name, one of the better reviewed Chinese TIG/Stick combos. AC & DC, and it runs on 110 & 220v. I have no clue about that stick thing, though... If we get a Jeep, maybe I'll try it out. Hah!

I'm very impressed with the DCEN performance. With 1/16 lanthanated tungstens, it holds a very low power arc beautifully. I prefer it to my work's Lincoln 275 square wave for steel.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/b3fd7244-f26a-4339-ac1e-66fa45c34764_zpsd1eb0b02.jpg

Aluminum/ AC, it's OK. I think I prefer my work's machine for this. I ought to prefer it for something, it's over 3x the cost, and with a liquid cooled torch.

I need to upgrade to a gas lens diffusion on the torch for mine, but keeping short runs on the stainless and caution with heat, it's looking good. Gold to slightly blue.

Here's a timelapse from the last bit. I haven't been good about taking the footage, but Tamra is!

http://youtu.be/ai__plIETqc?list=UUIE74vMoj4ykn7_8mHJ7Gnw

Tamra

02-24-2015, 12:56 PM

So these arrived yesterday...
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/hoosier_zps0a2af7d4.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/hoosier_zps0a2af7d4.jpg.html)

Our tune got pushed back to the 7th due to a schedule conflict at EFI. We can't wait :)

RM1SepEx

02-24-2015, 01:09 PM

how you going to get those 245s to fit in the front?

Tamra

02-24-2015, 01:13 PM

These are for the rear, we will be running 15's on the front. We would have chosen wider for the rear, but Hoosier had a closeout sale and they were only $90 each down from $280 each... so we couldn't resist the savings.

AZPete

02-24-2015, 01:56 PM

Need 2. Good price. Buy 6. :D

Harley818

02-26-2015, 02:24 AM

I like reading your build. Your attention to detail is great both in the theory and implementation. You are thinking it all through before hand whereas I'm just going ahead with it, and sometimes doing it twice. Great work.

Thanks for the info about the burping. I haven't had the time to successfully complete mine yet.
I kept adding coolant to my overflow tank every time I walked by and started it again on the weekend. I drove the car out in the street, and turned it around like you guys did so I could work on running it with the exhaust pointing out rather than filling up the garage with fumes.
Awesome wheelspinning power..... but then I had a small leak onto the manifold..... so shut it down. Luckily, just the clamp on the upper engine connection. I think I'll add a valve in and drain it into a bucket like you did till its full, then hook it up to the overflow tank.
looking forward to running it till the rad fans come on......

Tamra

02-26-2015, 07:40 AM

Need 2. Good price. Buy 6. :D

Yup, that's about how the thought process went! The other was, buy two, get 4 free (because that was the equivalent savings).

I like reading your build. Your attention to detail is great both in the theory and implementation. You are thinking it all through before hand whereas I'm just going ahead with it, and sometimes doing it twice. Great work.

Thanks for the info about the burping. I haven't had the time to successfully complete mine yet.
I kept adding coolant to my overflow tank every time I walked by and started it again on the weekend. I drove the car out in the street, and turned it around like you guys did so I could work on running it with the exhaust pointing out rather than filling up the garage with fumes.
Awesome wheelspinning power..... but then I had a small leak onto the manifold..... so shut it down. Luckily, just the clamp on the upper engine connection. I think I'll add a valve in and drain it into a bucket like you did till its full, then hook it up to the overflow tank.
looking forward to running it till the rad fans come on......

Thanks Harley! Don't worry, we've definitely had to redo stuff too. In fact, last weekend we realized that where we had placed the AWIC radiator did not allow enough room for our fittings, so we had to weld on new tabs to shift it over an inch. Whoops.

Scargo

02-26-2015, 07:57 AM

Wait till you see what I've done. Going to be hard to back-pedal out of this one.... Pics/details later in the day.

Tamra

02-26-2015, 08:02 AM

uh oh... what did you chop off this time?!?!? Hopefully part of the car lol

R.Spec

02-26-2015, 06:53 PM

Yes, there's a separate bracket now for the pedals.. This needs to be bolted in place before the contoured front aluminum. IIRC it goes on with some of the low pan head socket cap screws. 1/4-20 maybe?

I think it's actually properly updated in the I rev manual.

Forgive me for asking again. But after I got it all bolted up with the 5 screws. the pedal box is not even close to lining up. The master cylinder screws go through and the part that attaches to the steering column lines up. but the bolt holes that go through the firewall are not even close? Input on this?

xxguitarist

02-26-2015, 11:26 PM

Hindsight

02-27-2015, 04:07 AM

The issue I had with mine was that the bracket didnt bolt square to the frame. It sticks forward a bit. I didnt notice it until I went to put the firewall over it. One side of the firewall could no longer reach the frame due to the pedal bracket sticking out too far forward. I pushed hard on the firewall to sort of bend it into place and rivet to secure. It worked but a day later the rivets failed So now I have a small gap there.

My firewall holes didnt perfectly line up with the bracket either. I just used a dremel to open them up as needed.

STiPWRD

02-27-2015, 09:20 AM

So the thin aluminum pieces up front aren't lining up with the other components? I'd see if you can de-rivet & adjust those until they fit. I think ours had some standoff distance from the bracket, but it squishes down to fit tightly.

The issue I had with mine was that the bracket didnt bolt square to the frame. It sticks forward a bit. I didnt notice it until I went to put the firewall over it. One side of the firewall could no longer reach the frame due to the pedal bracket sticking out too far forward. I pushed hard on the firewall to sort of bend it into place and rivet to secure. It worked but a day later the rivets failed So now I have a small gap there.

My firewall holes didnt perfectly line up with the bracket either. I just used a dremel to open them up as needed.
Same here, there was a slight gap between the firewall and steering column bracket. I drilled and riveted a few extra holes around the big steering column hole to close the gap. Seems to be holding up well so far. If the 1/8 rivets fail, try stepping up to 3/16.

Tamra

02-27-2015, 09:44 AM

So we picked up this thing last night... 7.3l e350 diesel for a steal of a price. 2 owners, full maintenance history, 155k miles, and very little rust. We just might have to put a "free candy" sticker on the back ;p

It takes up most of our driveway, but we now have a towing vehicle! No space for a trailer, so we'll be renting a u-haul for now.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/van_zpsm5ld3ki3.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/van_zpsm5ld3ki3.jpg.html)

Hindsight

02-27-2015, 10:21 AM

Congrats on the van find! Vans are the best. You can sleep in them at the track and store a lot of tools and stuff in there.

Stipwrd: thanks for the tips on the larger rivets - I dunno why I didn't think of that. It's too late for me though since I already filled the gaps with silicone but it's honestly not a big enough gap to cause any issues and you can hardly notice it. in there.

R.Spec

02-27-2015, 01:19 PM

So the thin aluminum pieces up front aren't lining up with the other components? I'd see if you can de-rivet & adjust those until they fit. I think ours had some standoff distance from the bracket, but it squishes down to fit tightly.

nope, the pedals aren't lining up with the hard steel reinforcement. while the rest of the pedals line up with the master cylinder and the part of frame near steering column. i'll see if i can get a picture.

Bob_n_Cincy

02-27-2015, 01:28 PM

nope, the pedals aren't lining up with the hard steel reinforcement. while the rest of the pedals line up with the master cylinder and the part of frame near steering column. i'll see if i can get a picture.
R.Spec
Did you redrill the brake pedal arm 1/2" higher?
Bob

39151

Frank818

03-01-2015, 07:59 PM

Scargo

03-01-2015, 08:19 PM

What!! You can't just tuck the 818 inside it?

Tamra

03-01-2015, 08:51 PM

haha, the auto parts store guy today was VERY confused when I was in buying a Subaru radiator cap and 96 oz of brake fluid lol.

Anyone for a 7.3l 818? The engine only weighs 1,000 lbs...

Speaking of radiator caps, so we've burped the car 3 times now. The first time that we posted about a week or two ago, was then messed up by our hoses sucking in after cool down (not siphoning back in from the overflow tank). We assumed a bad cap, so we bought a brand new OEM one. Burped the coolant again last night, went back out to sucked in hoses again.. frustrating. Started Nasiocing, and figured out that with our coolant reservoir delete, that our system was not working properly. In a normal Subaru, the radiator cap does not pull vacuum, it only releases pressure, and the turbo coolant reservoir is the one that siphons the liquid back in on cool down. We basically needed to swap the caps in order to make our system function properly. Picked up another cap this morning, just a generic Impreza RS one from the auto parts store, and success! Car is burped, hopefully for the last time.

Another coolant blooper... make sure you never ever touch the corrugated hose to the battery terminal. It does NOT go well, and you lose a lot of coolant as it starts spewing out all over the garage. We had a small section left over that we hadn't used originally, and put it in with some hoses clamped on either end. The corrugated hose is now properly secured so that it cannot get anywhere near the battery...
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/8D080057-31E7-4FBA-AC2A-AC5BB580B05D_zpsi8p2adxt.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/8D080057-31E7-4FBA-AC2A-AC5BB580B05D_zpsi8p2adxt.jpg.html)

Exhaust is all welded up and installed permanently, gaskets included. Just need to finish the final exit and weld it up.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DB53AD54-3E57-49EB-9288-41CA727AD53A_zpsdwqxbuij.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/DB53AD54-3E57-49EB-9288-41CA727AD53A_zpsdwqxbuij.jpg.html)

AWIC radiator is all mounted and lines plumbed, just need to add coolant and burp it. We welded on mounting tabs at the top, and a bar across the bottom to bolt to.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/3F649C1D-016B-484E-A0A8-FC6E3AF44928_zpsj1jjvrob.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/3F649C1D-016B-484E-A0A8-FC6E3AF44928_zpsj1jjvrob.jpg.html)

We also mounted our catch cans to the rear cross brace to keep them accessible.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/15B9304D-DAC2-4A04-9F61-EC852439567B_zps4xfxikck.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/15B9304D-DAC2-4A04-9F61-EC852439567B_zps4xfxikck.jpg.html)

Andrew also worked on some assorted wiring and getting the gauges ready to install in the dash, which will come later this week...

And, best for last, we drove it around the block! The alignment was horrible the first go (I was sawing at the wheel to go 5mph in a straight line), so we made some adjustments and went back out. Not perfect yet, but we had some fun, got into 2nd gear, got some thumbs up, stares, and waves.

http://youtu.be/jxUCJNfuel0

metalmaker12

03-01-2015, 09:34 PM

I did the same thing with the coolant line and battery, lol..brought back that moment. Congrats guys!!!

Bob_n_Cincy

03-01-2015, 09:34 PM

Great job Andrew and Tamra

With your new van, you can pick up 2 kits next time. Hint, hint.
39196

Frank818

03-02-2015, 09:41 AM

The alignment was horrible the first go (I was sawing at the wheel to go 5mph in a straight line), so we made some adjustments and went back out. Not perfect yet, but we had some fun, got into 2nd gear, got some thumbs up, stares, and waves.

Great job on the kart! Did you get waves from others cuz your alignment was crooked and you were always about to crash in the snow? :)

Speaking of alignment, I am interest in the results once you finalize it. Looking at how good your LCA alu spacer helps for caster/camber.

tnx

Hindsight

03-02-2015, 07:33 PM

Looking very good! Thanks for passing along the bit about the coolant hoses and battery. Seems like an easy mistake to make.

tebriel

03-05-2015, 03:14 PM

Just read through your entire thread. Very fast and quality build! Also I lolled at all the 90's throwback music. Thanks for making me feel old! :-D I'm curious if you're going to add heat shielding around the exhaust housing on your giant turbo and exhaust? I'd be a little concerned with the amount of heat that thing will throw off.
Cheers!

Tamra

03-05-2015, 07:27 PM

Thanks everyone!

Tebriel - welcome to the forums, and thank you! We will be buying a turbo blanket, and we are partially wrapping the down pipe as well. The headers and up-pipe have been fully wrapped with DEI Titanium wrap too.

xxguitarist

03-05-2015, 10:36 PM

With our dyno session coming up this weekend, we've been cramming in the hours.
Last night we were out in the garage from 7ish until a little after 1am, and today we had a snow day, so we put in another 10 hours or so.

Big items:
All gauges installed into the dash, and the dash installed into the car. We installed our JDM V8 STi gauge cluster. ooOOoohh shiny. What's a KPH again?
Gauges are: Boost, Oil pressure, AFR, Pre/Post IC BATs, AWIC water temp, oil temp.
The gauges have an alternate color of orange, so we'll see what we prefer.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DDB41131-A456-4F5C-9243-40ECDF42B6A2_zpsop3hnhqe.jpg

On the gauge topic, if you, like us, forgot to ground out the door switches, locate this yellow wire running up to the cluster, snip, and heatshrink (apart)... No more light!
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/E40514EE-1278-4BDF-8FD8-C670A040DBD7_zpsouothbcv.jpg

Boost/ Vac lines run for EBCS & EWGs, BPV too. The hose we ordered for the recirc line was a little too small to fit, so it's a BOV for another week. Won't affect the tune, but would be good to have it plumbed in before autox for throttle transitions.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/110ACDDE-D298-441F-BD57-F291A1AE7622_zpswlss8j4e.jpg

We also got the AWIC system filled/burped. It took some time, and hooking our shopvac to the top of the AWIC HX core at the back of the car helped a lot with initially priming the pump. It's running great now, and wired to turn on with the ACC position on the ignition. We will have a fan wired to be manually switchable from ACC also, for cooling the water in grid.

The exhaust is also installed now, and complete except for cutting the tip to length and polishing once we have the body panel in place. I reused the FFR supplied exhaust hanger, after cutting, heating & bending.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/E79F1140-489E-4BFD-961A-FE149A32221F_zpstatmu2sy.jpg
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/6E934836-A4F7-47B6-A277-2A0422C4D53B_zpsy7lcaub7.jpg

Mechie3

03-06-2015, 06:09 AM

I see you did the same redrill of the BPV to fit the greddy flange. Bob n Cincy figured that out for the AWIC I put together for him. It's all coming along nicely.

xxguitarist

03-06-2015, 07:25 AM

I see you did the same redrill of the BPV to fit the greddy flange. Bob n Cincy figured that out for the AWIC I put together for him. It's all coming along nicely.

Guess so! Wish I'd seen theirs- We spent a couple hours searching for a compatible flange before figuring out we could drill & tap it.

Hindsight

03-06-2015, 09:16 AM

Looking nice. I like the gauges. I am planning on getting the same pre-post intercooler gauge, but have been looking for the same thing in a WATER temp gauge too, so I could put it pre and post AWIC to get a good feeling about what's going on with water temps.

xxguitarist

03-06-2015, 10:17 AM

My take on it:
If all are good, then you're good.
If post-IC air temp is high, and post-rad water isn't, then the core isn't preforming properly. Add more HX core or water flow rate.
If post-IC air temp is high, and so is the post-rad water, then you need more radiator, airflow/ducting, or an ice tank.

Post-IC water temp, before the radiator sees it, would really only tell you about how good of a job the radiator is doing. Fun, but not crucial I think.

metros

03-06-2015, 07:31 PM

Tamra

03-06-2015, 11:23 PM

I've heard to anticipate around 4.5 gallons of coolant for the cooling system. How much would you guesstimate for your AWIC system? I'm assuming everyone is just using regular coolant for that system as well.

This post is always great to check out. Always a lot of progress to see.

Thank you!

We only ended up using about 2 gallons. However, we do not have a reservoir - it is a closed loop system currently. We plan to keep it that way for space and weight savings unless we have problems that indicate we need additional coolant and/or an ice box.

Tamra

03-07-2015, 04:39 PM

Successful tuning day at EFI Logics! We limited the boost to ~15 psi for break in, hit ~310whp, and full boost by 3400 RPM! The RWD dyno was malfunctioning, so had to do the pulls as AWD, so the real whp numbers would probably be higher if we weren't spinning the front wheels too. This car is going to be FUN!!!

Dyno Pull:

http://youtu.be/aLffgCVpB5A

Scargo

03-07-2015, 05:46 PM

Hindsight

03-07-2015, 05:54 PM

Wow that sounds nice! Congrats!! Looking forward to seeing that dyno chart. 3400 RPMs is fantastic for full boost.... that twin scroll setup is working nicely.

Tamra

03-07-2015, 07:39 PM

Oh yea. You are close to ST-2, 8:1 numbers. It will be mucho fun, especially with those little wheels for Auto-X.
I'd love to see the dyno chart, but I believe EFI is way behind on posting dyno pulls on their site. (I have a few there)...
Can you post it? I'm interested in the torque curve. Did Mikey tune it?

Wow that sounds nice! Congrats!! Looking forward to seeing that dyno chart. 3400 RPMs is fantastic for full boost.... that twin scroll setup is working nicely.

Thanks guys! Mikey did the tune. He wanted to know if the car cost under $100k!!! Guess we're getting a good deal :) He wasn't so interested in the 300+ hours of labor though, lol. He was, however, very impressed with the car's performance and we had quite the crowd checking it out and watching the dyno session.

He spent about two hours on the car, probably 40 pulls ranging in intensity, getting it just perfect.

We don't have the dyno chart yet (they are going to email it, probably Monday), but I do have a video of it!

http://youtu.be/f3N2v9xCVfs

Here's a few photos from today.

Our new van was a trooper- could barely tell we were towing anything. Getting the 818 on the trailer was a bit of a pain - about 6 boards did the trick (one under the ramps, one on the ramps for the rear wheels, and one on the flat for the front tires). It was the only way to keep from bottoming out. Our current ride height with the 17" wheels is 4" on the nose. We also couldn't get it up on its own power, as the wheels just kept spinning. We ended up "winching" it on with our 10k tie down straps...we're going to get a come along before the next time.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/FF105F1E-49CE-4289-B4EF-532B3DD85B92_zpsyikdwejg.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/FF105F1E-49CE-4289-B4EF-532B3DD85B92_zpsyikdwejg.jpg.html)

Finished engine bay Note: We ended up with the wrong hose size this week and were not able to plumb in our Forge BPV. We learned that a BPV does not work like a BOV when not plumbed in, which prevented them from tuning using the MAF. They had to tune using speed density, and we will be adding a post IC BAT per their recommendation. Right now it was tuned using the MAF using speed density style to work around the Forge.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DSC_0145_zpsrjb5lvbo.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/DSC_0145_zpsrjb5lvbo.jpg.html)

A few more shots:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DSC_0144_zpskdmkg1eb.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/DSC_0144_zpskdmkg1eb.jpg.html)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DSC_0143_zpshtnfyvgb.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/DSC_0143_zpshtnfyvgb.jpg.html)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DSC_0138_zpsngk6fky6.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/DSC_0138_zpsngk6fky6.jpg.html)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DSC_0133_zps2hf8lme3.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/DSC_0133_zps2hf8lme3.jpg.html)

To conclude, we might have some gremlins to work out with the AWIC setup. The post IC temperatures were pulling a little higher than we would have liked near the end, after a bunch of hard dyno pulls. It approached post temperatures of 130. However, their fan system is set up for a top mount, and with our radiator being 4" off the ground, it wasn't getting the best airflow.

metalmaker12

03-07-2015, 10:37 PM

Nice..dyno stuff.. Btw good luck getting it on that trailer with body on.

Harley818

03-08-2015, 01:41 AM

looks good..... sounds good.
Nice work on the dyno - great results.
Glad to see you driving the other day Tamra.!!!! lol
Can't let Andrew have all the fun.

Mechie3

03-08-2015, 06:48 AM

Why does a BOV not function like a bov? Mechanically they should be the same.

RM1SepEx

03-08-2015, 08:06 AM

Tamra, go to Harbor Freight for $60 you can get a nice portable winch with wireless remote to pull it up on a trailer. Much better, faster, easier than a come along http://www.harborfreight.com/

Tamra

03-08-2015, 11:48 AM

Nice..dyno stuff.. Btw good luck getting it on that trailer with body on.

Yeah... not looking forward to that... We will have to get even more creative.

looks good..... sounds good.
Nice work on the dyno - great results.
Glad to see you driving the other day Tamra.!!!! lol
Can't let Andrew have all the fun.

The car feels great! I noticed it especially last night when we got it home, and I pulled it off of the trailer and drove it back into the garage. It revs QUICK and catches itself really well now. We'll have to see who drives it first at the autocross in a few weeks... if Andrew goes first, then I get warm tires.... hmmmm

Why does a BOV not function like a bov? Mechanically they should be the same.
To be honest, we have no idea and we thought that they did function the same. However, the tuner was having a hard time even tuning the idle before he realized that it was a BPV that was being used as a BOV. Once he figured that out and switched to speed density, it was smooth sailing.

Tamra, go to Harbor Freight for $60 you can get a nice portable winch with wireless remote to pull it up on a trailer. Much better, faster, easier than a come along http://www.harborfreight.com/

Thanks Dan! We'll probably pick that up.

metalmaker12

03-08-2015, 02:46 PM

I might go to patriot place for April 16th. Bass pro shop car shows are great there. You guys to bring your kart.

Frank818

03-08-2015, 06:26 PM

That exhaust kicks!!!

About the 6 gauges you got in the center, are those 2 blue on the left (angled to each other) visible when you drive with your right hand on the SW?
I noticed I had to push my gauges on the right side (starting over the center console) if I wanted to see them.

wildbill

03-08-2015, 06:32 PM

Why does a BOV not function like a bov? Mechanically they should be the same.

I believe that there would be a difference when tuning. The BPV and BOV serve the same purpose, but the BPV directs the released air back into the intake before the turbo and after the MAF. There would definitely be a difference in the readings of the MAF in the two different scenarios, which may require some changes in the tune.

......just my 2 cents.

-Bill

Hindsight

03-08-2015, 06:43 PM

Speed density FTW!

Scargo

03-08-2015, 07:28 PM

Two things: I went straight to Speed Density. It has worked out well for me.
Secondly, (in road racing) I believe in having the gauges UP and centered, where you can see them instantly without diverting your eyes from the road and other cars for very long.
This is different from a street car or even an autocross car, where you are done with a run in a minute. Gauges are superfluous during that brief moment; only relevant before and after, so placement is irrelevant.
Make placment, size, color a statement if you want. In racing you have very brief moments to look at gauges and they bettered be readily readable.

Tamra

03-08-2015, 08:47 PM

I might go to patriot place for April 16th. Bass pro shop car shows are great there. You guys to bring your kart.

Hopefully by mid April we won't be in kart mode anymore, at least not fully!

That exhaust kicks!!!

About the 6 gauges you got in the center, are those 2 blue on the left (angled to each other) visible when you drive with your right hand on the SW?
I noticed I had to push my gauges on the right side (starting over the center console) if I wanted to see them.

Thanks Frank! Andrew spent a lot of hours on the exhaust to get it to fit and look nice.

The angled gauges are covered with our right hand as they sit. However, once we pass inspection and get the car registered, we are going to a smaller diameter, quick release steering wheel, and at that point they will be fully visible.

Two things: I went straight to Speed Density. It has worked out well for me.
Secondly, (in road racing) I believe in having the gauges UP and centered, where you can see them instantly without diverting your eyes from the road and other cars for very long.
This is different from a street car or even an autocross car, where you are done with a run in a minute. Gauges are superfluous during that brief moment; only relevant before and after, so placement is irrelevant.
Make placment, size, color a statement if you want. In racing you have very brief moments to look at gauges and they bettered be readily readable.

The gauges we bought have flashing lights and a buzzer that go off if the car were to exceed or dip below certain unsafe values. That way, in autox, if we hear an obnoxious buzzer go off, we know we have a problem without even having to look at the gauges. Instant feedback! We will also have each other as a passenger for the first while, with the passenger watching the gauges like a hawk during runs.

Scargo

03-09-2015, 08:10 AM

I guess I will have to pry it out of you as to the gauge brand... What and where did you get them? The features "sound" interesting.

Mechie3

03-09-2015, 08:18 AM

To be honest, we have no idea and we thought that they did function the same. However, the tuner was having a hard time even tuning the idle before he realized that it was a BPV that was being used as a BOV. Once he figured that out and switched to speed density, it was smooth sailing.

I believe that there would be a difference when tuning. The BPV and BOV serve the same purpose, but the BPV directs the released air back into the intake before the turbo and after the MAF. There would definitely be a difference in the readings of the MAF in the two different scenarios, which may require some changes in the tune.

I get that part, but that brings up several questions. Why did it have trouble just idling? Most tuners tune in a single gear, they aren't tuning across a shift point so during a pull the BPV/BOV shouldn't be dumping air so they wouldn't even see that effect. Many manufacturers sell a BOV that can be made into a BPV by adding a recirc tube. Mechanically all BPV/BOV are a piston with a spring, a boost reference port, an inlet and an outlet.

The only thing I can think of is that the spring isn't strong enough under vacuum to remain closed and it requires some amount of vacuum from the recirc hose to pull the piston down in order to maintain a seal. Seems a bit unlikely. Either way, it means they had a pretty bad air leak somewhere if it required speed density to fix. Perhaps under boost it didn't matter and speed density was required only to allow it to idle as under boost it would be held shut by pressure on the boost reference port.

Tamra

03-09-2015, 09:09 AM

I guess I will have to pry it out of you as to the gauge brand... What and where did you get them? The features "sound" interesting.

Oh sorry about that - i thought we mentioned them somewhere. They are all Prosport gauges. Economically priced, and seem pretty accurate. We read that they have some issues with sensors going out sometimes, but as long as they are working they are accurate. We checked our oil pressure gauge accuracy using an STRI gauge that we had for another car, and they matched. The alarm function is nice, although annoying because our oil pressure gauge starts sounding as soon as the key is turned to the "on" position lol. It's a race car though!

I get that part, but that brings up several questions. Why did it have trouble just idling? Most tuners tune in a single gear, they aren't tuning across a shift point so during a pull the BPV/BOV shouldn't be dumping air so they wouldn't even see that effect. Many manufacturers sell a BOV that can be made into a BPV by adding a recirc tube. Mechanically all BPV/BOV are a piston with a spring, a boost reference port, an inlet and an outlet.

The only thing I can think of is that the spring isn't strong enough under vacuum to remain closed and it requires some amount of vacuum from the recirc hose to pull the piston down in order to maintain a seal. Seems a bit unlikely. Either way, it means they had a pretty bad air leak somewhere if it required speed density to fix. Perhaps under boost it didn't matter and speed density was required only to allow it to idle as under boost it would be held shut by pressure on the boost reference port.

I think that could be a possibility, but I haven't taken the time to try to research it much. Initially we didn't have boost running to it and the car idled fine, but as soon as we hooked up the final hoses the car was not happy. EFI Logics and their tuner STI Mikey are well known as one of the best tuning shops on the East Coast, so our car was in good hands and they got it sorted out with a nice safe tune. With everything going on (the car was on the dyno for over 2 hours, and had 23km of dyno runs), we didn't ask too many details on why the Forge caused the problem - all I know is that they worked around it and got a solid tune on the car.