Andrew & Tamra's 818SR EM Autox Hybrid Destroked Long-Rod Build

[Bob_n_Cincy]

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45948

[Tamra]

Hindsight, just some fiddling to get it right and a lot of luck. We're still not happy with it because we want it to sit more flush, but that will take some adjusting of the hinge, which isn't final yet.

Getting ready to race tomorrow. This will be the first time out with body panels and first time out with the untested aero. Hope everything works because it's about 2 hours away! We've packed a ton of tools so we can hopefully solve most problems on site. Although the car is street legal, we are towing in case we have any problems (thanks for loaning us your trailer Glyn!).

We haven't finished putting the ride height and alignment back, but we'll just do it in the morning before the race starts. The site opens at 7 and racing doesn't start until 10, so it shouldn't be a problem. We also packed some 450lb Hypercoil springs in case the 300lb ones in the rear aren't enough with the aero. If we are ambitious maybe we'll just swap them in the morning while we're doing the alignment, rather than waiting until the lunch break :)

It's going to be COLD in the morning (weather says 49 degrees at 8am). Guess that heat from the engine bay may not be so bad after all!

[Tamra]

Well, we broke the car today.

We figured it would be an axle, or maybe the transmission. Nope, we had an electrical short. The car was driving fine for the first half of the day (10 runs combined), and then suddenly refused to start, acting like the battery was dead. A multimeter showed that our battery's positive and negative terminals were both grounding on the chassis. That parked us for the rest of the day, unfortunately, but not before we got some entertaining videos!!

We will need to do some more setup work, as the car is now very loose and not confidence inspiring. A lot of changes have been made since our previous outing, including ride height, alignment, and aero. On the plus side, the front splitter protected the bumper from many cone hits (one center peg which actually knocked it off of its rearmost F-bracket mounting point, which you'll see in the video. Easy fix though).

Blooper reel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CaIpYdIYGs


Video of this moment included in the blooper reel video. Our friend and course worker at the time showing off Andrew's lovely prize. Isn't the definition of splitter "Split-ter: Noun: Device used to separate items into two parts."

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/A6C4A556-09A0-4045-801A-261A779AEB1C_zpsmg1yk8li.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/A6C4A556-09A0-4045-801A-261A779AEB1C_zpsmg1yk8li.jpg.html)

[Tamra]

Rear aero view. Looks like we'll need to add more support.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kozc46yKk4o

[Tamra]

My one clean run before the car died. Not my best driving but I did manage to get it around the course without hitting any cones or spinning.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amevu4cF9bk

[Hindsight]

Looks nice.... very smooth.

[RM1SepEx]

I like Josh's hat :rolleyes: He hits a lot of cones with our club...

[Rasmus]

We will need to do some more setup work, as the car is now very loose and not confidence inspiring.
I with you there. When you can't trust the car not to snap around on you, you'll tend to drive timid. Which makes it frustrating.

[Tamra]

Looks nice.... very smooth.

I'm guessing you're not referring to the blooper video :)


I like Josh's hat :rolleyes: He hits a lot of cones with our club...

You realize that cone was hit by the 818, right? The splitter literally sliced the cone off its base! Josh is great.


I with you there. When you can't trust the car not to snap around on you, you'll tend to drive timid. Which makes it frustrating.

Agreed. We've got a long road of development ahead of us. I'm sure it will make us better drivers in the meantime!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

You realize that cone was hit by the 818, right? The splitter literally sliced the cone off its base! Josh is great.


Did the bottom of the cone stay in the box?

[Rasmus]

SCCA Solo cones are so stank. I'm no germ-a-phobe but yuck. Might as well put a halo of used bathroom floor tile from a NASCAR event on your head. Nasty. I started wearing gloves to shag cones shortly after I realized that local clubs never wash the cones.


Did the bottom of the cone stay in the box?
I thought I knew the rules of Solo. I'd guess that if the cone was cut by the car, the two parts would have to both land upright and in the box. But if I was slicing cones with my car I'd expect a stern talking to from the Safety Steward and a halt to my runs until I fixed it.

[Tamra]

Did the bottom of the cone stay in the box?

No, but that would have been epic!


SCCA Solo cones are so stank. I'm no germ-a-phobe but yuck. Might as well put a halo of used bathroom floor tile from a NASCAR event on your head. Nasty. I started wearing gloves to shag cones shortly after I realized that local clubs never wash the cones.

I thought I knew the rules of Solo. I'd guess that if the cone was cut by the car, the two parts would have to both land upright and in the box. But if I was slicing cones with my car I'd expect a stern talking to from the Safety Steward and a halt to my runs until I fixed it.

eh, whatever. I get greasy and gross working on a car, the cones don't phase me! Before we eat lunch I just use hand sanitizer :) Or I don't eat the crust of the pizza where I held it....

I think people were impressed that we actually sliced a cone! It was quite the entertainment for everyone lol. BTW, it's a 3/16" blunt edge. He must have used the length of the splitter to slice across it during his spin. Not a word from the safety steward :)

[Tamra]

So to give everyone an update... our electrical issue from the weekend has turned into a major problem. We have been chasing it down the last few nights and not having much luck yet. If anyone has any ideas other than to just continue looking for our needle(s) in a haystack, we'd love to hear them.

I'll give you the run down of the steps we've taken. These were the results using a multimeter.


So basically we worked on process of elimination for which items were shorted:
1) the battery was shorted. Disconnected the power, the battery was then good.
2) the main power line was shorted. Disconnected the power line from the starter, and it was then good, indicating the main power line was good.
3) Starter was then shorted. Disconnected small pink cables between starter and fuse block, and starter was then good.
4) small pink wires were shorted, so disconnected them from the fuse block, they were then good.
5) Fuse block was shorted. Started pulling fuses until we figured out which fuse (50amp) caused the short to go away. This means that something downstream of that 50amp fuse (somewhere in the wiring harness) is shorted.
6) Worked our way to the fuse box in the passenger footwell and fuse #4 was causing the short. This is where it gets confusing. Disconnecting the fuse only got rid of part of the short, which would indicate that the line running between the main fuse and the passenger fuse box is shorted, AND there is another short after the passenger fuse box somewhere. It's possible that when one shorted, it then heated up further down the line and caused another point to heat up and melt, and then short. Not sure yet.
7) Multiple wires in the blue connector on the front of the fuse block are shorted. Purple, yellow/red, and yellow/green are shorted.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/207B242A-6245-44BC-8244-75DF6EE5E9B9_zpsynjjrroc.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/207B242A-6245-44BC-8244-75DF6EE5E9B9_zpsynjjrroc.jpg.html)

Other variables:
The short is only present with the key in the on position.

That's about as far as we've made it so far.

We cut an access hole in the undertray. In case you didn't know, the undertray is riveted UNDER the side side sails, making it impossible to remove with them on. We didn't want to remove body panels, so we cut the under tray instead. We'll make a new plate to cover the hole after we figure things out.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/7B61F177-043F-4E78-8446-A1AF0F066F51_zpsgyyvuopm.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/7B61F177-043F-4E78-8446-A1AF0F066F51_zpsgyyvuopm.jpg.html)


Wiggling the bundle of wires for awhile started to point to the short(s) being somewhere near the tape on this bundle under the shifter. Moving up and down didn't seem to make a difference, so that would indicate that the wires are shorting on each other rather than frame.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DEF81941-11BE-4126-AD6D-C3DBF630B593_zpsp78lxgdf.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/DEF81941-11BE-4126-AD6D-C3DBF630B593_zpsp78lxgdf.jpg.html)


Something else we have learned from this experience is the necessity of having fuse boxes accessible. Center of the firewall above the fuel tank is not accessible.... add that to the list of winter improvement projects.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/B89C5E20-3A96-45B1-9CF7-88BF1BD7D974_zpspm5mneec.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/B89C5E20-3A96-45B1-9CF7-88BF1BD7D974_zpspm5mneec.jpg.html)

[brian b 36]

tamra see brian at iwire and for get all your problums i know lots of money but he makes it real simple and would be real easy to find problums brian

[D Clary]

How are you checking for the short? Are there blown fuses or just no power? If you are just using an ohm meter to check to ground t can be misleading as you will get continuity through normal circuits to ground. I suspect you have a loose connection some where. If you connect the battery is there voltage at the battery? If yes. make sure there is voltage to the ignition switch. If no, test the battery. If there is power at the switch but goes away when you turn it on, there is a bad connection before the switch or at the switch. Your diagnosis will be easier with a test light than an ohm meter. If you had a short to ground there would be blown fuses and or smoke. What you are looking for I think is an open circuit, either ground or hot. If everything went dead it is probably athe the battery, main fuse panel or ignition switch. I would start with the largest circuits and work my way down. Stop taking the car apart and reason it out.

[brian b 36]

tamra what year harness are you using brian

[xxguitarist]

How are you checking for the short? Are there blown fuses or just no power? If you are just using an ohm meter to check to ground t can be misleading as you will get continuity through normal circuits to ground. I suspect you have a loose connection some where. If you connect the battery is there voltage at the battery? If yes. make sure there is voltage to the ignition switch. If no, test the battery. If there is power at the switch but goes away when you turn it on, there is a bad connection before the switch or at the switch. Your diagnosis will be easier with a test light than an ohm meter. If you had a short to ground there would be blown fuses and or smoke. What you are looking for I think is an open circuit, either ground or hot. If everything went dead it is probably athe the battery, main fuse panel or ignition switch. I would start with the largest circuits and work my way down. Stop taking the car apart and reason it out.

We are checking for short with a multimeter.
1.6 ohms from starter B+ lead to chassis ground can't be normal.
I=V/R, 7.5A going through the short. Not enough to blow a 50A fuse, or to toast the wires.

The battery has voltage. It's probably a bit toast now from the short, but it has resting voltage over 12v.
The chassis to B- shows a voltage ~9v when the B+is connected, so there is a short to the chassis or other ground that there should not be.

Given the current and chassis going high, I'm going to re-check the main chassis ground, and make sure it has good contact. I'd think it would pull the chassis back to ground better than that, so I think there's some resistance in that grounding also.

We have been working progressively, and working our way away from the battery.

The fact that we found an area that gets rid of the short suggests there is more at play than an unplugged connector..




Brian, it's an 02.

[D Clary]

7.5a not enough to kill the car

[xxguitarist]

It is when the chassis (gnd) to +12v is a 3v differential. Ground reference is being pulled up by the short. Anything chassis ground referenced is not seeing 12v.

[D Clary]

What I am saying that a 7.5 amp short will not pull the battery down 3 volts. It sounds like you have a ground problem.

[brian b 36]

call me

[metalmaker12]

Check Starter ground, engine harness ground, all grounds and wires, connections to all grounds. Maybe a connection you Mae came loose from beating on the car.

[xxguitarist]

Well, Bug started tonight!

We had checked thoroughly the main ground to chassis, starter strap, and ground lug on the battery to the terminal, but we missed that the terminal then clamped onto a crimp connector on the main ground wire.

I found it while watching the current off the positive terminal through one meter and the voltage across the terminals on another, the moved the current meter to voltage, and checked another spot on the terminal- a bare spot of wire on the ground just past the crimp. Noticed the difference. The actual wires were showing that they were floating above ground by ~9v.

This connection was a little loose, and rather corroded. Brushed/scraped, and tightened back down. All signs looked good, so we fired it up!



My reservation in declaring the car fixed:
We saw a short when looking on the inside (protected side) of MB-4 50A fuse. It was intermittent, and dependent on wiggling a section of wires in the center console. We have not *yet* found a visibly abraded wire, but the intermittent nature is worrying for me. It definitely responded to wire movement, and those wires cannot result in moving the main battery ground.
My understanding of the meter's resistance measurement gets a little fuzzy, when the lower reference point is not as expected. It's possible that with no battery ground, I was making some incorrect assumptions on what the resistance meant between two points, since the frame/battery/ground wasn't quite as constant as expected, I'm not sure how the meter interprets its resistance signal voltage/current.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Well, Bug started tonight!

My reservation in declaring the car fixed:
We saw a short when looking on the inside (protected side) of MB-4 50A fuse. It was intermittent, and dependent on wiggling a section of wires in the center console. We have not *yet* found a visibly abraded wire, but the intermittent nature is worrying for me. It definitely responded to wire movement, and those wires cannot result in moving the main battery ground.
.

Andrew
A corroded connect will change resistance with very little movement. while you were wiggling wire there was probably small car movement.
I suspect your good to go.
Bob

[xxguitarist]

Thanks Bob,
My concern is that there is no tangible connection between the wiring harness and the primary ground. It goes to chassis, and the wiring is secured away from the service loop.
Anything is possible, but it's an odd situation.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Thanks Bob,
My concern is that there is no tangible connection between the wiring harness and the primary ground. It goes to chassis, and the wiring is secured away from the service loop.
Anything is possible, but it's an odd situation.

Hi Andrew,
On my donor there 2 wires coming out of the battery negative connector.
1. The large wire (#4 or#6) went to the engine block making the block the primary ground point for all engine related functions.
2. The small wire (#6 or#8) went to the chassis. Making the chassis the primary ground point for other junk. (lights, horn, fans, locks, windows, ect.)

I would wire your car the same as donor.

Bob

[STiPWRD]

There are several ground terminal lugs throughout the harness, have you made sure those have all been attached to chassis? I had at least 3-4 ground terminal lugs attached along the center tunnel frame. I think this is what Bob is alluding to.

[xxguitarist]

Bob, valid point.
What's your opinion: OK to leave using chassis as a ground path to the engine until we relocate our battery this winter?

I'd rather not run a 12' 2 awg wire the length of the car if not necessary for maybe one more event and a few street miles. We'll move it in the winter to behind the passenger seat, and then ground to the engine & chassis each directly.

STi,
I know what Bob means, and it's about the main battery grounds, but yes, we have a pile of grounds in the center frame rails. Maybe closer to 6.

[Hindsight]

Andrew, some really good info here on grounding, ground loops, dangers, etc: http://www.w8ji.com/negative_lead_to_battery.htm

And more on battery wiring in general: http://www.w8ji.com/battery_wiring.htm

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, valid point.
What's your opinion: OK to leave using chassis as a ground path to the engine until we relocate our battery this winter?



Hi Andrew,
Leave it the same until this winter. Just make sure you have very good connections on both ends of your engine ground strap.
You don't want starting current going through the #18 sensor ground wires.
Bob

[brian b 36]

andrew call me i when you have a chance 860 982 3477

[Oppenheimer]

For crimps like this, I like to coat the bare wire ends with grease to prevent corrosion. They say to use dielectric grease, but I prefer conductive grease (I want current to easily pass from conductor strand to strand, and from conductor to crimp). Just a thin coat, then crimp, then seal it in with heat shrink tubing.

One thing that is confusing is the issue you fixed is an open (or a partial open), while the issue you were troubleshooting for was a short. But it sounds like it really was an open all along, a grounding issue, that resulted in ground floating several volts above zero, such that components were not getting their full 12v, and failing to operate (car acted like battery was not supplying the full 12v). Do you think there is still an intermittent short? (another, separate issue?)

[metalmaker12]

Wow your all talking about a simple fix for way too long, but glad you found it.

[Tamra]

Oppenheimer, we did some more testing and there is no indication of a short now that the ground issue is corrected. Since the frame was reading 9 volts during the issue, we are thinking it must have been messing up the multimeter's reading. The very first thing we checked was the terminals - cleaned them, made sure they were tight etc. Little did we know we were 1" away from the issue!


The car is all put back together now and the ride height is halfway done. We are putting the car back to how it was for our initial autocrossing back in April (we marked all of the settings). It's low - too low probably. The springs have settled significantly, so although we started with a ~4" ride height initially, I think we are closer to 3.5" now (will get final measurements later tonight once it's back on the ground), and probably under 3" with the race tires on. In April we had around 1/4" of forward rake, but last weekend we had 1/2". We think this contributed to the looseness. In April, the setup felt forgiving and very fun, so we want to go back to it as our baseline, and make adjustments from there.

We did not have any rubbing issue last weekend (except one time when I locked up the brakes in a very sharp corner, and the front right rubbed slightly), despite the fact that our Hoosiers poke out of the wheel wells significantly. The smaller diameter probably helped (15's in the front and 16's in the rear). Considering we just lowered the car around 1/2" all around, we will have to watch closely again.

This week we will also reinforce the splitter and ducktail a little more.

Last night I spent a few minutes removing cone scuffs. A little rubbing alcohol and clay bar did the trick quickly. We also polished and waxed one small spot to test it out, and it made a huge difference. We'd probably get less cone scuffs if we did the entire car. You can see where a cone took out a chunk of gel coat on the fender.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/EDBDB6EF-63B1-4703-9C05-1D6E201B1343_zpsvjfstw26.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/EDBDB6EF-63B1-4703-9C05-1D6E201B1343_zpsvjfstw26.jpg.html)

[Tamra]

Tonight was not fun, but we finished adjusting the ride height. After putting pre-load into our Konis (the race shocks) in order to hit minimum ride height to pass inspection (slightly over 4"), the collars froze to the sleeves. When we tried to spin the collars, the sleeves would just spin on the shock bodies. All of them were clean, free of dirt, and rust free.

Clean sleeves:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/5EFB05A0-7B7F-48A4-A86A-F2C3EC27212B_zpsje4shmyz.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/5EFB05A0-7B7F-48A4-A86A-F2C3EC27212B_zpsje4shmyz.jpg.html)

Three of the four corners we were able to grease the collar and use a strap wrench on the sleeve, combined with a lot of effort, and got them to move. The 4th (front driver), would not budge. We even tried using a torch sparingly (didn't want to damage the powder coat). We finally had to pull it off and put it in the vice, combined with using a strap wrench, and an extension on the arm of the shock adjuster, before we could get it to budge.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/4EE88F26-F13E-414E-BE08-D547498D404A_zpsrnhvj2az.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/4EE88F26-F13E-414E-BE08-D547498D404A_zpsrnhvj2az.jpg.html)


So in our experience, if you put preload into your shocks, you may never be able to adjust them again. Has anyone found a solution for this?

Our final ride height with our race Konis set at "just snugged" (minimum preload at full droop), front upper shock at the R bolt hole (lower), rear shock at the street holes:
2 7/8" front, 3 1/16" rear, at the rocker panel.

This is with 245/40/15 (22.7" diameter) and 245/45/16 (23.7" diameter) Hoosiers.

We estimate that our street ride height would be 3 5/8" front and 3 3/4" rear, with our 215/40/17 (23.8" diameter) front and 255/40/17 (25.0" diameter) rear. We will not make it over speed bumps at this height, so it is not practical.

I'm not sure what the solution is to get a taller ride height, because putting preload into the springs obviously binds them badly. The front we could just put into the other bolt hole, but not the rear. We could go stiffer springs, perhaps. Not sure if that would be enough.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Tonight was not fun, but we finished adjusting the ride height. After putting pre-load into our Konis (the race shocks) in order to hit minimum ride height to pass inspection (slightly over 4"), the collars froze to the sleeves. When we tried to spin the collars, the sleeves would just spin on the shock bodies. All of them were clean, free of dirt, and rust free.

Three of the four corners we were able to grease the collar and use a strap wrench on the sleeve, combined with a lot of effort, and got them to move. The 4th (front driver), would not budge. We even tried using a torch sparingly (didn't want to damage the powder coat). We finally had to pull it off and put it in the vice, combined with using a strap wrench, and an extension on the arm of the shock adjuster, before we could get it to budge.

So in our experience, if you put preload into your shocks, you may never be able to adjust them again. Has anyone found a solution for this?

Our final ride height with our race Konis set at "just snugged" (minimum preload at full droop), front upper shock at the R bolt hole (lower), rear shock at the street holes:
2 7/8" front, 3 1/16" rear, at the rocker panel.

This is with 245/40/15 (22.7" diameter) and 245/45/16 (23.7" diameter) Hoosiers.

We estimate that our street ride height would be 3 5/8" front and 3 3/4" rear, with our 215/40/17 (23.8" diameter) front and 255/40/17 (25.0" diameter) rear. We will not make it over speed bumps at this height, so it is not practical.

I'm not sure what the solution is to get a taller ride height, because putting preload into the springs obviously binds them badly. The front we could just put into the other bolt hole, but not the rear. We could go stiffer springs, perhaps. Not sure if that would be enough.

Tamra,
I have preload on all my springs and have re-adjusted them 3 or 4 times. No Problems.

Maybe dirt or grit is running down the thread tube and getting into the lock ring threads.

Preload should not really matter. The weight of each corner is the amount of pressure on each locking ring.

My locking ring set screws have nylon tips. I have been careful not to over tighten them and damage the threads.

Overall I don't like the locking rings. They are a pain to adjust under preload.

These Koni locking rings lock by tightening 2 rings together. I might try these on my second car.

46397
Bob

[Tamra]

We were adjusting them with the car in the air (0 corner weight), so the only load was preload. We don't think ours have nylon tips but we will double check tomorrow.

Andrew likes the locknut approach and the pinch bolt approach, so maybe we will try one of those.

We are pretty sure they were clean. Even after spinning them out they still looked clean. They got easier and easier until we could spin them freely by hand as the preload reduced.

[RM1SepEx]

I had to use a strap wrench on mine too but they all spin freely with the wheel in the air.

[Erik W. Treves]

I always put a little bit of anti-seize on the collar just to keep the collar and ring from becoming one.

[avgjoe]

Long time follower, first time poster.

You two seem to be pretty o top of things so you may have tried this but didn't mention it. Have you tried to use a spring compressor to take the load off the collars when you adjust your shocks?I know those are smaller diameter than most OEM springs but you should be able to get one in there. There are several styles so it may take some trial and error. Probably can't use them while the shocks are on the car.

Keep up the great work! I love seeing your scientific method approach to just about everything on the car. Great ideas.

Joe

[AZPete]

When I built an FFR roadster I learned on the forum to trash the set screws. They are not needed to keep the height and they put dings on the sleeve threads that make turning the rings difficult.

[xxguitarist]

Long time follower, first time poster.

You two seem to be pretty o top of things so you may have tried this but didn't mention it. Have you tried to use a spring compressor to take the load off the collars when you adjust your shocks?I know those are smaller diameter than most OEM springs but you should be able to get one in there. There are several styles so it may take some trial and error. Probably can't use them while the shocks are on the car.

Keep up the great work! I love seeing your scientific method approach to just about everything on the car. Great ideas.

Joe

Joe,
Considered it. Increasingly considered it with that one corner. I really don't think our HF spring compressors would have done it with these small diameter springs. We needed it done now, not a few days later, or a few days after that, depending on which potential replacement set might have worked. We haven't tried, but I also try not to use those except where necessary.


Pete,
Interesting. No slipping down the road?
Seems like they should be inclined to vibrate out of position.

[Tamra]

Double header autocross this weekend! Heading to NNJR tomorrow and NER Sunday assuming the car holds together. We are slightly worried about tire rub with our lower ride heights. Pretty much the entire garage worth of tools is shoved into the van just in case.

[Canadian818]

Good luck!

[Tamra]

Fun day at NNJR! Bug didn't break AND managed 8th overall raw (let's not talk about pax lol). Lots of setup work left... The front doesn't work in sweepers and the rear doesn't work in transitions but we've got straight line acceleration down pat! Developing this car is going to be really fun.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/A4741FB7-2B56-4855-A0E2-01357062E30C_zps0f8f4vlt.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/A4741FB7-2B56-4855-A0E2-01357062E30C_zps0f8f4vlt.jpg.html)

Video:
http://youtu.be/LayGzXPbQKA

[Frank818]

What a beautiful day!!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Tamra,
I loved at the end of you video when you pated the steering wheel. (good pony, good pony)

Keep pounding on the car to find any issues. We will do the same.
Bob

[Tamra]

Thanks guys. I'll have a full report after the weekend. Andrew is racing the car again today at NER.. May make a few tweaks this morning if we have time (no time last night due to a family dinner). I'll be in the CSP Miata today.

[Tamra]

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/960E39AF-F647-4116-BAE8-4C96C0BAA464_zps0admoj1d.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/960E39AF-F647-4116-BAE8-4C96C0BAA464_zps0admoj1d.jpg.html)

Successful 2nd day with Bug!

Andrew drove solo today. In the morning he concentrated on learning the handling and putting down a good time. The afternoon he started pushing the car to find its limits and test reliability. He started actually launching the car as well - might as well figure out how weak the axles are now to start strengthening everything. Nothing broke today and the data logs were excellent. He found the 2nd rev limiter (fuel cut) past the timing pull, which comes in at close to 7500 rpm and 71MPH in 2nd gear. He hit it every run in a fast slalom, but the car stuck it pretty well.

Here's a fun video of Andrew launching the car with two step, set at 4k, which spun the tires up easily (although it was only 60 out today and he was single driving, so they weren't hot at every start). To help reduce the drivetrain shock, he would pull the e-brake and preload the drive train by slipping the clutch slightly (takes out the backlash), and then put the e-brake down before launching.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ1glQlEu9w


Also, we are having some problems with our springs settling lower and lower. Despite starting at equal ride heights, after running a counter clockwise course yesterday, the passenger front corner is now a full 1/4" lower than the driver front, creating some mild rub issues. Also, our total ride height shrunk nearly an additional 1/2" after racing this weekend. Our car is shrinking! Is anyone else having this problem? We are considering switching springs at all four corners and going with Hypercoils. If we had paid to have our car corner balanced, we would be out $500 due to the springs. This is getting frustrating! Plus, when we tried to raise the ride height this morning, we found the collars frozen again despite only having the tiniest bit of pre-load. We'll have to put them in the vise again. Time to get new sleeves and try two collars rather than the set screw.

[Tamra]

Here's a video of Andrew driving the course. As you can see, the car is still a bit of a handful and requires fast hands in some places. This should improve more with additional set up work. The hard limiter section (bep bep bep) was 71 MPH in 2nd gear at just under 7500rpm. We were surprised he made it there, since we have timing pulled starting at 6900 rpm, and the power drop off is very noticeable.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v2yvfgSpfk&

[R.Spec]

Here's a video of Andrew driving the course. As you can see, the car is still a bit of a handful and requires fast hands in some places. This should improve more with additional set up work. The hard limiter section (bep bep bep) was 71 MPH in 2nd gear at just under 7500rpm. We were surprised he made it there, since we have timing pulled starting at 6900 rpm, and the power drop off is very noticeable.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v2yvfgSpfk&

Cannot wait to get my 818 done! :o

[idf]

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/960E39AF-F647-4116-BAE8-4C96C0BAA464_zps0admoj1d.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/960E39AF-F647-4116-BAE8-4C96C0BAA464_zps0admoj1d.jpg.html)

Successful 2nd day with Bug!

Andrew drove solo today. In the morning he concentrated on learning the handling and putting down a good time. The afternoon he started pushing the car to find its limits and test reliability. He started actually launching the car as well - might as well figure out how weak the axles are now to start strengthening everything. Nothing broke today and the data logs were excellent. He found the 2nd rev limiter (fuel cut) past the timing pull, which comes in at close to 7500 rpm and 71MPH in 2nd gear. He hit it every run in a fast slalom, but the car stuck it pretty well.

Here's a fun video of Andrew launching the car with two step, set at 4k, which spun the tires up easily (although it was only 60 out today and he was single driving, so they weren't hot at every start). To help reduce the drivetrain shock, he would pull the e-brake and preload the drive train by slipping the clutch slightly (takes out the backlash), and then put the e-brake down before launching.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ1glQlEu9w


Also, we are having some problems with our springs settling lower and lower. Despite starting at equal ride heights, after running a counter clockwise course yesterday, the passenger front corner is now a full 1/4" lower than the driver front, creating some mild rub issues. Also, our total ride height shrunk nearly an additional 1/2" after racing this weekend. Our car is shrinking! Is anyone else having this problem? We are considering switching springs at all four corners and going with Hypercoils. If we had paid to have our car corner balanced, we would be out $500 due to the springs. This is getting frustrating! Plus, when we tried to raise the ride height this morning, we found the collars frozen again despite only having the tiniest bit of pre-load. We'll have to put them in the vise again. Time to get new sleeves and try two collars rather than the set screw.

Is there enough bind in your suspension or grip between the tires and floor that the car does not fully settle until you have driven it? If you have not, try rolling and bouncing the car before measuring the ride height.

[xxguitarist]

Is there enough bind in your suspension or grip between the tires and floor that the car does not fully settle until you have driven it? If you have not, try rolling and bouncing the car before measuring the ride height.

We always roll the car back & forth a few feet before measuring ride height. The suspension doesn't bind much at all.

In this case, the car was autocrossed Sat & Sunday, jacking it up to put different front tires on for trailering each time, and even Sunday it got shorter between the morning & end of day.

[metalmaker12]

You gotta drive the car with two people to load each spring correctly is what I found out.

[Scargo]

Those are no-name springs, aren't they? The ones that came with mine are. I've been satisfied with my Eibach and H&S springs.

Metalmaker: You don't compete in autocross with two people in the car so that's not how you would want to set it up or corner-balance it. I think racing in Auto-X is their main focus for the car.

[Tamra]

They are no name springs as far as we can tell.

Good springs don't settle. I think we will be ordering some Hypercoils tonight.

In our post in the suspension forum someone said that they measured the FFR springs once and had a 70lb difference in rate in two 350 lb springs!! That's not good at all.

[Tamra]

Springs are ordered. This coming weekend we will be testing Hypercoils on all 4 corners, sticking with the same 500lb fronts (although by the sounds of it, who knows what the real rate was of the no-name springs), and going from 300lb rears to 450lbs. We are using all of the shock travel and hitting the bump stops in the rear, causing handling issues in transitions.

In the front, we are using about 2" of travel, of 3.5" available.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/DD8841B5-B488-440A-ACFA-F811FE051681_zpshkwy6wqj.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/DD8841B5-B488-440A-ACFA-F811FE051681_zpshkwy6wqj.jpg.html)

You can see the dirt line more clearly in this photo, indicating max travel used:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/56BCDEB1-7113-4181-82E2-26A19B0C2F1B_zps3z3ehuos.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/56BCDEB1-7113-4181-82E2-26A19B0C2F1B_zps3z3ehuos.jpg.html)

Passenger side tire rub (low side due to poor quality springs):
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/3F2F7C1E-17E6-42B0-8531-6690B4829638_zpsamtu9fqo.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/3F2F7C1E-17E6-42B0-8531-6690B4829638_zpsamtu9fqo.jpg.html)

Also, upon post race inspection, we noticed that our upper ball joint boots are getting torn badly. The other side of this one is also torn. Is anyone else experiencing this? Any solutions?
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/4906EB83-D6FE-4261-AAF5-0926B5A69DB0_zpsya690o0p.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/4906EB83-D6FE-4261-AAF5-0926B5A69DB0_zpsya690o0p.jpg.html)

[Kurk818]

I found my boots torn before i even had the wheels installed. I packed a bit more grease in them and left them as is for now. Interested to see what others have done.

[metalmaker12]

Those are no-name springs, aren't they? The ones that came with mine are. I've been satisfied with my Eibach and H&S springs.

Metalmaker: You don't compete in autocross with two people in the car so that's not how you would want to set it up or corner-balance it. I think racing in Auto-X is their main focus for the car.

True, I was just stating what I did and it seemed to work.

Also , guys what's your ride height. I am right at 4.5 now, it only takes a single cruise/ shakedown to settle the springs, I have had the same issue with many good name coilovers. They all seem to settle a bit. Maybe you just had them set to low and it just took some runs to work them down. The car is lite so rolling it around doesn't settle the springs, you have to drive it, stop and go, turn hard etc.

[Erik W. Treves]

Silly question. ...been over a year...but I seem to recall the rates were supposed to be installed with 500's in the back? 350's up front with sway bar.....again been a bit....if you are not running a bar then obviously the 500's up front make sense....but the 300's are not for rear with R shocks...I did the same thing on mine ... things got much better with the 500's in the back!

[Tamra]

True, I was just stating what I did and it seemed to work.

Also , guys what's your ride height. I am right at 4.5 now, it only takes a single cruise/ shakedown to settle the springs, I have had the same issue with many good name coilovers. They all seem to settle a bit. Maybe you just had them set to low and it just took some runs to work them down. The car is lite so rolling it around doesn't settle the springs, you have to drive it, stop and go, turn hard etc.

Taking the measuring tape out of the picture, we autocrossed the car on Saturday. At the end of the day, we rolled the passenger tire up on a board, which allowed us to get the jack under the car. On Sunday, the car was autocrossed again. At the end of the day, same process, we rolled the passenger tire up on a board. However, this time, we could no longer get a jack under the car. Both times were on a flat surface. The car continued shrinking well beyond many hard stops and turns.



Silly question. ...been over a year...but I seem to recall the rates were supposed to be installed with 500's in the back? 350's up front with sway bar.....again been a bit....if you are not running a bar then obviously the 500's up front make sense....but the 300's are not for rear with R shocks...I did the same thing on mine ... things got much better with the 500's in the back!

Yep, the 500's are up front, no sway bar yet. The FFR recommended setup is for track use which is not usually in line with autocross setup. We have a long road of spring experiments ahead of us. This weekend it will be 500f/450R.

[Wayne Presley]

I'd order 400 front and put the 500's in the rear

[tmoretta]

Does that recomm. go for a mostly street car (occasional track car) set up also?

[Hindsight]

If one were to buy better quality springs for street/HPDE use (no autoX), what rates would be suggested front and rear, and would those rates still work with the FFR provided yellow shocks?

[Erik W. Treves]

I autox mine with front splitter and rear spoiler and had 500's in the rear and 350's up front...I tried the other way around and it was a mess...at least for me....

[Wayne Presley]

Does that recomm. go for a mostly street car (occasional track car) set up also?


No, for street I'd do 350 front and 500 rear.

[Hindsight]

No, for street I'd do 350 front and 500 rear.

Thanks Wayne - would those rates still work with the yellow FFR shocks that come on the S?

[Tamra]

Thanks Wayne - would those rates still work with the yellow FFR shocks that come on the S?

Per my understanding, the Koni Yellows are great for street spring rates (unless the ones designed for the 818 are different for some reason). As you go up in spring rate, you want to adjust the damping to match the spring rate, but since the yellows are only adjustable for rebound, then the bump damping becomes very poor. You could contact Koni to get them revalved for stiffer springs. Their price is very reasonable.

Wayne, we already ordered the 450/500 combo, but we may try switching which end the heavier spring is on at some point. In my experience, 50lbs can make a significant difference in handling.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Tamra, that was exactly my concern. I've upgraded springs on another car many years back, without upgrading the shocks and had poor results. I didn't know if the rates Wayne suggested were far enough off from the FFR springs to require different shocks but sounds like it would.

[Tamra]

Koni is usually quick to respond. I would recommend you email them and ask.

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the tip! I will give it a shot.

[RetroRacing]

If I remember correctly, Yellows are only good to 500Lbs, after that, they overheat quite quickly.

[PleiadsMan]

awesome guys keep it up! That thing must be a monster

[Frank818]

500 rear for street? Aren't we with... 275 from FFR?

[Wayne Presley]

Tamara's car will have some aero downforce at autocross speed but most of the grip will be mechanical. For autocross, the higher spring rates will help with body roll and allow the car to transition right to left faster. Suspension frequency is a better indicator of actual rate than the actual springs.

[D Clary]

I agree with Wayne, the left to right transitions require stiffer spring to reduce the recovery time of the chassis changing directions. You will probably end up much stiffer than you thought you would. That has been my autox experience, the better it is for autox the worst it is on the street.

[Scargo]

... Suspension frequency is a better indicator of actual rate than the actual springs.
I've heard this before but how do you do real world measuring and evaluating of this? I have seen really sophisticated McLaren stuff but it seemed out of reach, price-wise. I'm dreaming I can find a way to rent sensors if there is such a thing and if it seems worthwhile. As it is, I'm just doing the amateurish, old guy thing. How good does it need to be or what am I leaving on the table, that I can even feel? That's where I'm at with the STi. I have gas, double-action racing shocks and 600/800 pound springs on a 3000 pound car and I only have my buttfeelerometer to go by and I am halfway lost with how to make adjustments. I'm not going to make wholesale changes just because I'm going to a smoother/rougher course. I need an average roadcourse setup.
I used to do SCCA Solo and autocross and those parking lots sure can vary in smoothness, cleanliness and grip.

[D Clary]

I think your butt is really all you have, that and a stopwatch. Stiffen the springs and play with the shocks. In reality you need double adjusting shocks to adjust compression and rebound. Road course and auto x are very different. the transitions come at a much slower pace and the car has plenty of time to recover, so it can be a little softer. I'm just an old guy too so it doesn't take as much to stroke my ego and get an adrenaline rush. On the other hand winning is very nice.

[xxguitarist]

I've heard this before but how do you do real world measuring and evaluating of this? I have seen really sophisticated McLaren stuff but it seemed out of reach, price-wise. I'm dreaming I can find a way to rent sensors if there is such a thing and if it seems worthwhile.

For under $2k, you can get a race-tech DL1 sport (http://www.race-technology.com/content.php?pcat=8&cat=31363) with 8 analog inputs, and 4x linear potentiometers (http://www.race-technology.com/linear_sensors_suspension_standard_8_967.html), then record data fast enough to see the shocks oscillate after a single (square-edged-ish) bump.

You'd be on your own to machine/fabricate something to attach the shock pots to the top & bottom of the coilover.

[Frank818]

Ok I get it, the 500 rears are for autoXing, but not for say a DD that never autoXes. Then yeah Wayne's explanation makes a lot of sense. I thought the 500 were for a street car not racing.

[Tamra]

Our car is being built for autocross, so any recommendations you see here may not be applicable to the street or track. Our car is street legal for convenience, but is being build for performance not street comfort.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Hypercoils_zps04qh1gvg.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Hypercoils_zps04qh1gvg.jpg.html)

The new Hypercoils are installed on all four corners. Wayne, we went with your suggestion and we are going to try 450F/500R tomorrow. Seems like it is popular with the lotus crowd (in autocross) to run even stiffer rear springs (more like 800 rear), but with us coming from Miatas (which run closer to 700+f and 400R), it's a little hard for us to be willing to jump that far yet.

We don't like a loose car. Is there a reason that many of the mid engine cars run so much stiffer rear springs?

Our ride heights are raised up a little, to 3 1/4" front and 3 1/2" rear (pretty close to the same forward rake as the last event, which was 3/16" and now we are 4/16"). We want the car a little lower, but that's as low as we can go in the rear with the new, stiffer springs, without losing too much preload. We may have to switch to a 7" spring in the rear to correct this. We jumped up and down on the frame of the car and rolled it a bunch before measuring, so they shouldn't change much. We will double check everything in the morning.

Oh yeah, BobnCincy - we took your suggestion and picked up the nylon tipped set screws. The provided ones had destroyed the threads on our sleeves, and it took us awhile to file them back smooth. That's why our collars were binding so badly.

[Rasmus]

We don't like a loose car. Is there a reason that many of the mid engine cars run so much stiffer rear springs?

It's really all about Spring Frequency. Realize that Spring Rates are determined by the Spring Frequency you choose. You can get the 818 to ride almost exactly like your Autocross Miata. Just Calculate the Spring Frequencies for the Miata. Then reverse calculate the Spring Rate for the 818. That'll give you an excellent starting point rather than guessing.

To calculate spring frequency when you have Motion Ratio, Spring Rate, and Sprung Weight:
SpringFrequencyinHz = ( ( SpringRateinInchLB / SprungWeightinLB ) ^ 0.5 * 3.13 / MotionRatio )


To calculate spring rate when you have the Spring Frequency, Motion Ratio, and Sprung Weight:
SpringRateinInchLB = ( ( MotionRatio * SpringFrequencyinHz/ 3.13 ) ^ 2 * SprungWeightinLB )

MotionRatio is the amount the spring moves relative to the amount the hub moves when compressed or drooped. So if the Hub moves up 2 inches when going over a bump and the Spring compresses 1.32 inch, you've a motion ratio of 0.66 (double wishbones act like this). If the Hub moves up 2 inches when going over a bump and the Spring compresses 1.9 inch, you've a motion ratio of 0.95 (struts act like this). If the Hub moves up 2 inches when going over a bump and the Spring compresses 0.25 inch, you've a motion ratio of 0.125 (rocker arm F1 style suspensions act like this).

SprungWeightinLB is the Sprung Weight in Pounds per corner. So put your car on the scales get the corner weight then subtract the unsprung weight from the corresponding corner (e.g. wheels, tires, brake parts, hubs/knuckes, half of the steering tie rod, half of the A-arms, half of the damper, half of the axle).

An easy way to get the unsprung weight is to put the car on jackstands and remove the spring/damper (coilover) from the suspension. Then reassemble everything without the spring and damper. Now put a scale under the tire, while the car's chassis is on jackstands and see how much unsprung weight you've got there. Then add half of the coilover's weight to what the scale reads. Now when I type "easy", I mean easier than uninstalling your a-arms, knuckles, axles, and brakes to weigh them. Make sure when you go for a weigh that the tire's at approximately ride height. You don't want anything binding up and taking a load off the scale.

So if you find your Miata running Frequencies of 2.5Hz/2.8Hz (front/rear) just calc what Spring Rates you'll need for the 818 to get 2.5Hz/2.8Hz. Or whatever it calculates out to be. That's your starting point.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

We want the car a little lower, but that's as low as we can go in the rear with the new, stiffer springs, without losing too much preload. We may have to switch to a 7" spring in the rear to correct this. .

Tamra,
I'm not sure how changing spring length will change your preload distance.
I had to go with tender springs.

Rasmus,
Great advice on spring frequency. I have been using Wayne's and other Lotus info as they have the most similarity to our 818's. Our 600 in the back are a pretty rough on street potholes. They seem fine at auto-crossing.
With them, the car is super responsive with very little body roll.

Bob

[Tamra]

Bob, you're totally correct. We agree with you that a helper would be necessary and maybe even stick with the 8" springs (need to look at where we are at on the sleeve). I think we were tired and under the influence of an IPA or two when we had that thought process last night.

We are used to the Konis on our Miata where there isn't enough sleeve left for a longer spring.

Bug is loaded on the trailer (Thanks Glyn!!!!) and ready to go. We are triple driving with our friend Tim tomorrow (remember him? he was the one out here almost every Sunday over the winter helping). Should be another good test of the car.

[Sgt.Gator]

Here's a spreadsheet that will help immensely with these calculations.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7AjPIxcFbAgamVKQ1NTUElRWEU/view?usp=sharing

I hope I set the link up right. You should be able to download the spreadsheet. If not I can email it directly to you, just PM me with your email address.

[Frank818]

I confirm the spreadsheet is downloadable. Don't look at it online, the print margins aren't adjusted so it cuts the width.

I sure am going to play with it! I might need stiffer rears.

What's our unsprung weight? It depends of the brakes, but without them, do we know?
And how do we know the values to input in the resistance area?

According to the sheet, I need a 3035lbs rear spring. lolll

[Sgt.Gator]

I confirm the spreadsheet is downloadable. Don't look at it online, the print margins aren't adjusted so it cuts the width.

I sure am going to play with it! I might need stiffer rears.

What's our unsprung weight? It depends of the brakes, but without them, do we know?
And how do we know the values to input in the resistance area?

According to the sheet, I need a 3035lbs rear spring. lolll

I think you missed a part of the calculation!

On the unsprung weight you can pretty much ballpark it. If you know the tire + wheel weight, guess or weigh the brake rotor and caliper w/pads. The rest of the suspension is only a few pounds. It affects the calculation but you can see if you change it from 100lbs to 50 lbs the overall calculation doesn't change dramatically.

[Tamra]

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/5DD9863C-667C-4E3E-A32C-3582B721E767_zpsv1oii0k8.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/5DD9863C-667C-4E3E-A32C-3582B721E767_zpsv1oii0k8.jpg.html)
Above: Bug getting some pre-race advice from Bumblestook, a nationally prepared BSP S2000

Update from the weekend of racing!

Good news and bad news.

Good news - the new set up felt great. We liked the 450f/500R setup. We may reduce the rake a little (will need to get helper springs for the rear) before next season, and/or get more rear tire. The car spins up the tires so easily, and tends to get too loose on power.

My last run would have been good for 6th fastest time at the event if I wouldn't have coned.

Unfortunately, with 3 runs left, the car stalled when I went back to grid and wouldn't start again. ANOTHER no start issue.

We couldn't figure it out on site, so our friend Steve generously offered us Bumblestook, his BSP S2000. Bumblestook is very well prepared and isn't offered out for co-drives often, so it was a rare opportunity to drive a really awesome car. So while we were bummed about Bug breaking, we were really excited to get our last few runs in Bumblestook!

In my 2nd run in the car, I set 6th fastest time of the day (.1 seconds faster than my last run in the 818, which goes to show how well set up the car is) and would have been top 15 by pax if I was running BSP. What a fantastic car, and Steve has done an excellent job setting it up. Getting to drive well setup cars helps us set goals for the 818.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/CA4B14D4-CDF3-4C72-A58C-C35B1F08AFC1_zpswn40natl.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/CA4B14D4-CDF3-4C72-A58C-C35B1F08AFC1_zpswn40natl.jpg.html)

So, we dug into the 818 tonight looking for what happened. The car was turning over, but not starting, so it was not the same issue as last time. We could hear the fuel pump kicking on, so we suspected a bad cam or crank sensor, so we pulled them first. Both were clean, and the multimeter said they were good. We next checked the spark plugs - clean, but less fuel than expected considering we had been trying to start the car. So, we started looking at the fuel lines. We could hear the pump kicking on, but when we pulled off a fuel line, no fuel came out. We worked backward to the pump, and figured out the hose inside of the tank had somehow come off.

Easy fix! We also reviewed the video of the last run (I forgot to data log, whoops), and we can clearly see that the AFR's did not go lean under boost, which is excellent news. Much better to have it fall off in grid than while boosting.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/1DF70BC5-1B8E-4734-9ED6-EE77A87AAB62_zpsbaznpirn.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/1DF70BC5-1B8E-4734-9ED6-EE77A87AAB62_zpsbaznpirn.jpg.html)

Here's a video of my last, fastest run. I took awhile to get my confidence up. The car is powerful, it was cold so the tires weren't working great, and it's easy to get sensory overload. I'm also still acclimating to the mid-engine handling. However, in this last run I started to get up to speed by part way through (first half isn't so good), and drove a 41.4, which would have been good for 6th overall if I wouldn't have hit that cone in the beginning. The car has a lot of potential and is a blast to drive!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYLiobdDSP8

[Tamra]

Also, for comparison, here are our runs in the BSP S2000:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf0n9SIGlmA

[Canadian818]

I have nothing to add, but I just wanted to thank you for keeping your build thread going. I always enjoy your updates, they're truly a contribution to the development of the 818. That s2k seems solid!

[Tamra]

I have nothing to add, but I just wanted to thank you for keeping your build thread going. I always enjoy your updates, they're truly a contribution to the development of the 818. That s2k seems solid!

Thank you!

[BN]

I have nothing to add, but I just wanted to thank you for keeping your build thread going. I always enjoy your updates, they're truly a contribution to the development of the 818. That s2k seems solid!

I agree

[Tamra]

We went out for a beautiful Fall drive today in the 818. It was about 4 hours round trip, which included some highway driving, some backgrounds, a visit to Tmoretta's house, and some coastal driving on the way home. The car drove great, with the only issue being our speed sensor went out on the way home. It was very alarming, since we had launch control set at 2500rpm, which then kicked in the freeway at 70mph because we were cruising at just over 2500rpm. It basically acts like a rev limiter. We adjusted the launch control up and were to good to go. We'll pick up a new speed sensor.

We helped Tmoretta with checking his alignment. His car is really really nice, and you can tell he put a lot of attention to detail into it. The body work is very OEM like, and he has finishing touches such as footwell lights that activate when you open the doors, hood props for everything, and nice hinges. The car is also a fantastic orange color that really shines. His alignment was spot on, and we all suspect his tramlining issue is due to a lack of castor. We have the aluminum control arms (castor adding) with spacers (more castor adding) on our car, and he has the regular steel arms.

Tmoretta's car is much more street friendly, since he has the FFR 818S shocks and springs, compared to our 450/500lb springs. Andrew had a chance to drive the car, and said that the clutch was also much easier than our Southbend Stage 2. Our car is race car > street car though, whereas Tmoretta's is 95% street car. It shows!

Here's a few photos from our drive today:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/DSC_0202_zpsny6q88hz.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/DSC_0202_zpsny6q88hz.jpg.html)
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/DSC_0205_zpsrs64pf56.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/DSC_0205_zpsrs64pf56.jpg.html)
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/DSC_0223_zpsk3zry74f.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/DSC_0223_zpsk3zry74f.jpg.html)
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/DSC_0227_zpsr8zfq8dn.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/DSC_0227_zpsr8zfq8dn.jpg.html)
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/DSC_0217_zpsjuxuhlhn.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/DSC_0217_zpsjuxuhlhn.jpg.html)
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/DSC_0231_zpsmdbkai93.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/DSC_0231_zpsmdbkai93.jpg.html)
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/DSC_0242_zpsr94r2ui3.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/DSC_0242_zpsr94r2ui3.jpg.html)

[flynntuna]

Great photos! Very inspiring for us in the build phase :cool:

[metalmaker12]

Nice!!!

[Aceflo]

Beautiful cars. Nice scenery as well. :)

[Tamra]

Thanks everyone, we appreciate the complements.

So we have been trying to figure out our plan for wheels and tires for the coming season, because our current 245's all around just aren't enough. We are thinking 275's up front, and 315's in the rear. Wheels wise, we don't have the budget to spring for a full custom wheel setup yet, so we are sticking with the lower cost side of things.

Here are our thoughts:

Front
275/35/15 Hoosier A7's in the front, on 15x10 wheels, probably Diamond steelies. Seems like we can get proper backspacing to clear all of the suspension components. Our street tires (215/40/17) have a diameter of 23.8", our current race tires (245/40/15) have a diameter of 22.7", and the proposed tires (275/35/15) have a diameter of 22.6". Diameter wise we should be golden, and we can measure for suspension clearance.

Rear
The rear seems like it will be the challenge. For autocross, we want to stay as narrow as possible, but there is no way we are going to fit a 315 inside the fenders. Our goal will be to move the suspension components inward as much as we can. This may involve making some custom parts. However, we will also plan on flaring the fenders.

So the next challenge was deciding on wheel size. In 17", non custom wheels, we can only get a 17x10 in 5x100 (XXR 531). This would be a little narrow for a 315, and would better fit a 295/35/17 (25.1" diameter). I'm not sure if a 295 will be "enough" tire to offset the 275's up front. What do you think? The car is pretty loose on power, so we'd like a lot more stick. It's also only a 1.8% gearing increase over our current 245/45/16 tires in the rear (from 71mph top speed to 72mph, in 2nd gear).

The next option is an 18x11 (XXR 531), which is a much better fit for a 315, and we could do a 315/30/18 (25.4" diameter). Our current rear tire is a 245/45/16 (24.7" diameter), so the 18" will give us a 3.1% increase in gearing (from 71mph top speed to 73 mph).

Both of the rear wheel options have an offset of 20, which is way too high to fit with the suspension components. We will have to do extended wheel studs and spacers, and also work to move the suspension components out of the way as much as we can.

Thoughts, opinions, advice?

[Pearldrummer7]

FWIW, my quote from Team Dynamics was ~15% cheaper than my same-size Enkei RPF1's.

Man, 275/315 is HUGE. That's so cool! You don't think it's "too much" front tire for such a light car?

[Tamra]

If the Lotus' run them, I think we can run them. We will have to see if we can get enough heat into them, but with our plans this winter we should be shifting some weight forward which will help.

I believe Team Dynamics are pricey in the sizes we need (well over $2k for a set). If we go to that price range, we will probably go with SSR's, Volks, or Bogart wheels. The XXR's are $140/wheel, and the Diamonds are less. They are heavy, which isn't ideal, but we aren't ready to spring for custom expensive wheels yet.

[Pearldrummer7]

If the Lotus' run them, I think we can run them. We will have to see if we can get enough heat into them, but with our plans this winter we should be shifting some weight forward which will help.

I believe Team Dynamics are pricey in the sizes we need (well over $2k for a set). If we go to that price range, we will probably go with SSR's, Volks, or Bogart wheels. The XXR's are $140/wheel, and the Diamonds are less. They are heavy, which isn't ideal, but we aren't ready to spring for custom expensive wheels yet.

That's what I'd have been concerned with, heat.

Really? My quote for 17x8 + 35 and 17x9 + 35 was under $1,000. I went through Oakos Automotive. Either way, proper sizing makes more sense than trying to be lightweight IMO. That can always be a later upgrade.

[Tamra]

I'm not sure if we can even get a 15x10 in 5x100. I remember looking into them before and figuring out they wouldn't work. To get an 18x11 I believe you have to go to their fancy forged models which are $$$.

Keep in mind, we aren't going for "normal" sizes. 17x8 and 17x9 are a piece of cake :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Tamra,
In front I'm running 235/40-17 on 17x9 48et with my control arms 20mm extra long. No rub.

47501

I tried my rear tires in front. 255/40-17 on 17x9 48et. I had rubbing at full lock on the lower frame bar at full droop.
Bob

[Tamra]

Tamra,
In front I'm running 235/40-17 on 17x9 48et with my control arms 20mm extra long. No rub.

47501

I tried my rear tires in front. 255/40-17 on 17x9 48et. I had rubbing at full lock on the lower frame bar at full droop.
Bob

That's why we are going with 15" wheels up front. No way the 17's will fit in that size lol. However, at a 22.6" diameter in the front, the 275/35/15 will fit easily as long as they are spaced out enough. Fender flares will be necessary.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That's why we are going with 15" wheels up front. No way the 17's will fit in that size lol. However, at a 22.6" diameter in the front, the 275/35/15 will fit easily as long as they are spaced out enough. Fender flares will be necessary.

Your sounding like Michael. Bigger has to be better.
No way to get 15" on my fronts without brake modification.
The recommended temp for our R888 is 160 to 220F. We are lucky to get them above 120 at autocrosses.
Bob

[C.Plavan]

I paid ~$900 for my Team Dynamic's (17x8 fronts and 17x9 rears) So cheap, I bought two sets :)

[Tamra]

Your sounding like Michael. Bigger has to be better.
No way to get 15" on my fronts without brake modification.
The recommended temp for our R888 is 160 to 220F. We are lucky to get them above 120 at autocrosses.
Bob

We have 15" wheels on the front right now with our WRX brakes, no modification. Maybe we just lucked out.

The R888 isn't really an autocross tire (more of a track tire), so it makes sense that you have trouble getting heat into them.




I paid ~$900 for my Team Dynamic's (17x8 fronts and 17x9 rears) So cheap, I bought two sets :)

On the Team Dynamics, we have no use for another set of 17x8 wheels. We already have those for the street. A 9" wide wheel won't work for 315's. For someone looking for "normal" wheels, they seem like a great option. We would have considered them if we wouldn't have found a great deal on a set of Enkei PFO1's, which we use for our street wheels. We got them in trade for our old donor turbo with shaft play. Beat that price! :)

However, show me Team Dynamic wheels that come in 15x10 and 18x11 that cost $900... they don't exist.


Any opinions on the tire stagger in the rear - 275 up front with 295 or 315 rears? Pros and cons?

[xxguitarist]

Info for those who are concerned about not getting heat into the 275 15s..
It's the default size for a CSP miata, which weighs less and makes less power. We will be able to get heat into them as long as we get the handling limits of the car almost high enough.

And a reminder- we are talking purely about our intents for race wheels next season. They will only wear Hoosier A7s, or possibly a hillclimb/autox specific non-DOT radial.

[Scargo]

I've been reading about this oversized tire issue for autocross. Is it out of the realm of possibilities that you go to 5X114? Adapters or STi hubs seems like the only option unless you welded a ring to the spindles you have and redrill them.
Obviously I am thinking of the increased wheel options that would become available.
As to size and adequate heat buildup, I think you have answered that yourself. Other similar, light cars are doing it. The obvious gain is a wider footprint, more stable stance and more of the tire will stay on the ground regardless of roll and slip angle. Just by observing who is winning and what they are running seems to point to big tires. Weight and inertia don't seem to offset the gains.

Two thoughts: You might want to run smaller tires and softer compounds in the spring and fall. For the hot months run big tires on the front! Understeer will always be a problem on slower, tighter courses. Sounds like power is adequate to move the rear around.
Good luck!

[Tamra]

I've been reading about this oversized tire issue for autocross. Is it out of the realm of possibilities that you go to 5X114? Adapters or STi hubs seems like the only option unless you welded a ring to the spindles you have and redrill them.
Obviously I am thinking of the increased wheel options that would become available.
As to size and adequate heat buildup, I think you have answered that yourself. Other similar, light cars are doing it. The obvious gain is a wider footprint, more stable stance and more of the tire will stay on the ground regardless of roll and slip angle. Just by observing who is winning and what they are running seems to point to big tires. Weight and inertia don't seem to offset the gains.

Two thoughts: You might want to run smaller tires and softer compounds in the spring and fall. For the hot months run big tires on the front! Understeer will always be a problem on slower, tighter courses. Sounds like power is adequate to move the rear around.
Good luck!

We thought about the adapters, or even finding a way to convert our hubs. The issue is that in the front, we really need 4x100 oddly enough, because that's the bolt pattern that all of the wide 15" wheels come in. In the rear, 5x114.3 would have some added benefits from more wheel choices (but I'm not sure if there is wider than an 18x11 offered cheaply in 5x114.3? Since we can get that in 5x100, I see no motivation at this point for the adapter) and stronger axles. But would the STI axles be strong enough? Or do we even need them? Bob N Cincy made it through hundreds of wheel hop heavy launches before they broke one. Others have broken axles with seemingly no effort at all.

We are going to stick with the cheap wheels for now and do some further testing. If we start breaking axles frequently, then we may consider it worth it to do the conversion to 5x114.3 on the rear. The issue is we don't want 5x114.3 on the front since it is even harder to find 15" wheels in that bolt pattern. Alternatively, we could convert to 5x114.3 all around and then spend the money on fully custom race wheels ($$$) which we can get in pretty much any size, width, and bolt pattern. I'm sure we will end up with the lightweight, custom, wheels at some point, but we'd rather wait until we figure out which bolt pattern we want them in :)

I guess that's both the fun and the challenging part of this car. There is no proven recipe - we have to experiment and figure it out on our own!

[Scargo]

Agreed. Part of the fun and the agony. It has been shown that WRX stuff breaks. Bearings are smaller. In my five+ years of track days and knowing five or six guys with STis, none have had tranny axle or wheel bearing issues. I just paid $3K for a delivered '06 six-speed that looks like new. Had some original clear oil in it. Another $500 and you have a close-ratio box. Add a diff and you've got a great box for $5K. LOL, I've got three trannys apart right now.
I'd go big in the rear, since you guys seem good enough and dedicated enough. Don't let another season slip by.

[Tamra]

Our car is a fatty! This is no driver.

At least we know what our winter starting weight is.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/FB0CDD0F-2C8A-4492-BCD7-80F57FFC7DB2_zps23boudys.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/FB0CDD0F-2C8A-4492-BCD7-80F57FFC7DB2_zps23boudys.jpg.html)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/BB2DC4E0-2B02-4762-A66C-0E07B3997CA1_zpsyruce2sh.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/BB2DC4E0-2B02-4762-A66C-0E07B3997CA1_zpsyruce2sh.jpg.html)

[Canadian818]

It's hard to find wide 5x100 wheels. The frs/brz has helped in adding some selection. However they only fit 9.5 wide stock and usually it's hard to find a front wheel to match. There's a few now going with oversized tires, and I've read lots of comments on how loose the rear is under throttle. What are your plans for flares? I've ordered some xxr's and some 255 and 295 proxes. Ordered some eBay frp flares, but I'm about a month away from any body work.

[Tamra]

Andrew is hoping to build them out of fiberglass and make them look like they were always that way. We aren't quite there yet though, so we will keep you updated.


Also, we are working on ordering our other project parts for the winter.

We just ordered this Sparco L360 steering wheel. We actually got it for a better price than listed on Amazon right now even, which we were happy with. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002JI3G4S
47618

For the hub, I did some reading and it sounds like only the Works Bell hub makes life simple in keeping the horn and auto canceling signals. Is that what everyone else has found? I found it here for $130 shipped. Anyone know of any better deals? http://shop.topspeedtuned.com/works-bell-hub-subaru/

Originally we were pretty set on getting a quick release, but after sitting in tmoretta's car, which doesn't have a quick release, we think we will try it without at first. Since we bought a D shaped steering wheel it should help for getting in and out of the car. That, plus, 2" smaller diameter than the OEM Momo wheel should help too.

Next up on the list is putting together a drawing of a fuel cell and having Boyd Welding quote it out. Andrew could also make one, but for the amount of time it would take, we may just order one. Boyd has some "drop in" ones that would fit our application, starting at only $99, but we really want a flange for an in tank fuel pump, which none of theirs have. Hopefully they can modify one to have that for us for not too much extra.

The two we are looking at for starting points are: http://www.fueltankparts.com/5-gallon-rfh.html or http://www.fueltankparts.com/5-gallon-universal-fuel-tank.html
4761647617

Neither of the above would require cutting any chassis bars, since we have an opening at the top that will fit a 12x8 tank with a little room to spare. Ideally we could get a slightly larger tank that was say, 12x8x18 (tall). We will email them and see what options we have.

[Pearldrummer7]

So it was ~230 pounds for the body, lights, ducktail, etc?

Is your bumper for inspection still mounted?

[Hindsight]

Andrew is hoping to build them out of fiberglass and make them look like they were always that way. We aren't quite there yet though, so we will keep you updated.

If you do, consider making a mold so you can produce more. I think there is a GOOD market here for a nice looking set of fender flares that allow people to run tires larger than 255 out back. The small rear tire size is going to be the 818's limiting factor when it comes to high HP builds.

[Canadian818]

If you do, consider making a mold so you can produce more. I think there is a GOOD market here for a nice looking set of fender flares that allow people to run tires larger than 255 out back. The small rear tire size is going to be the 818's limiting factor when it comes to high HP builds.

Don't forget the transmission and axles

[Flamshackle]

Our car is a fatty! This is no driver.

At least we know what our winter starting weight is.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/FB0CDD0F-2C8A-4492-BCD7-80F57FFC7DB2_zps23boudys.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/FB0CDD0F-2C8A-4492-BCD7-80F57FFC7DB2_zps23boudys.jpg.html)

Where does the extra weight come from?

[Tamra]

So it was ~230 pounds for the body, lights, ducktail, etc?

Is your bumper for inspection still mounted?

That is correct. The initial weight was 1830lbs without driver. It was a fully driveable go-kart and included the windshield and carbon canister, but no wipers, no fiberglass, no bumper, no headlights or tail lights.

This weight includes the rear bumper (15lbs?) - we never had a front bumper - and the fiberglass, headlights, tail lights, and splash guards. We removed the carbon canister (10lbs?). So basically, the fiberglass, headlights, tail lights, and splash guards combined weigh about 230lbs.


If you do, consider making a mold so you can produce more. I think there is a GOOD market here for a nice looking set of fender flares that allow people to run tires larger than 255 out back. The small rear tire size is going to be the 818's limiting factor when it comes to high HP builds.

We will do our best! Hopefully they go well.


Where does the extra weight come from?

Tbh, I'm not really sure. We know that the AWIC system weighs a bit. It includes 2 gallons of water, the radiator, the intercooler, the pump, and all of the piping. Maybe 100lbs there? However, we reduced weight through our race seats, which are significantly lighter than the OEM Subaru seats that FFR's estimate includes (20lbs each vs 50+ lbs, so that's a 60lb weight saving). The other guess is gas. Both times we weighed the car, the gas tank was mostly full. 15 gallons of gas weighs ~90lbs. FFR is likely weighing the car with minimal gas.

So there is about 200lbs of additional weight, minus 60lbs from the seats, putting us at 140lbs over the "regular" build. Our turbo also weighs 25lbs, so that's not helping! Regardless, all of that still wouldn't get us to 1800lbs. Maybe fully dry weight, no oil, coolant, gas?

Our lightening plans this winter include the 5 gallon fuel cell, so that should save us 70lbs or so between the gas and the lighter tank, a lightweight battery which will save us around 30lbs. We may cut off the sway bar brackets as well since we don't need them, for another few pounds. I'm not really sure where to get another 100lbs from without spending a lot of money. We will re-weigh after our winter projects to see how successful we are.

[Mechie3]

It would be interesting to have someone weight an unbuilt kit + parts just to see what it is.

[Flamshackle]

It would be interesting to have someone weight an unbuilt kit + parts just to see what it is.

That would be very helpful in some ways. Totally dry weight.

[idf]

The weight discussion prompted me to put mine on the scales. 1803 lbs with approximately 10 gal fuel and other fluids. Corbeau FX1 Pro seats, FFR trunk and wipers, lots of Eastwood sound deadener. The difference seems to be mainly at the rear, with mine 474 and 476 lbs.

[Pearldrummer7]

I'd love to know what the R frame weighs compared to the S frame.

[Scargo]

That is a huge difference in the rear and overall. I don't get it...

[Pearldrummer7]

Could be scale calibration, I suppose. My experience is that their dyno reads high (EFI); perhaps their scale reads low.

[Scargo]

That's not nice. They have a Mustang dyno. If anything it will read low.
However scales should be calibrated occasionally. Most people report their 818s as overweight. One light, with a FFR trunk and "lots of Eastwood sound deadener" sounds suspicious.

[Tamra]

The most recent weight was not at EFI- it was a friend of ours that has scales. When the car was in go-kart stage, EFI's scales had been recently calibrated. Our friend's scales should be pretty accurate as well, since I had my s2k on them or long ago and they were spot on with other weight claims I've seen.

In the spring we will try to get back to back weights for comparison to rule out any significant differences.

I've always heard EFI's dyno reads lower than most.

[Pearldrummer7]

The most recent weight was not at EFI- it was a friend of ours that has scales. When the car was in go-kart stage, EFI's scales had been recently calibrated. Our friend's scales should be pretty accurate as well, since I had my s2k on them or long ago and they were spot on with other weight claims I've seen.

In the spring we will try to get back to back weights for comparison to rule out any significant differences.

I've always heard EFI's dyno reads lower than most.

Low, or high? My WRX was a lot higher there

[Tamra]

Low, or high? My WRX was a lot higher there

Lower is what I've always heard. Mustang Dyno's tend to give lower read outs. Perhaps you brought your WRX on a cooler day or something, lending to better power?

[Tamra]

Hey everyone. We are about to start ramping up on the 818 again.

Our steering wheel just arrived. Still waiting on the hub.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/03503FB9-D9F3-460A-A3D1-F666E0C2D883_zpsx4oaz6b7.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/03503FB9-D9F3-460A-A3D1-F666E0C2D883_zpsx4oaz6b7.jpg.html)


We are going to start demolition tomorrow to work on removing the FFR gas tank (good riddance, that thing has caused us so many problems!), relocate the battery to behind the passenger seat, and possibly install a kill switch. We will also be redoing the e-brake, center console, and firewall as part of this project.

I just got back from a week of work in upstate NY and a long previous few weeks. I'm excited to get back into the garage.

I picked up my new winter beater recently - an 05 RX8. I got a steal on this car. I went through and painted the entire underside with POR-15 to try to protect against the salt. The car isn't super clean, but it's the lightest weight RX8 ever made and one of the top cars in its SCCA class. No sunroof, no fogs, no traction control. Seems like a great dual duty winter beater autocross car to me. #autocrossallthethings
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/55FF2689-1845-4C57-BDFF-7415A14898E4_zpscqsqph8l.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/55FF2689-1845-4C57-BDFF-7415A14898E4_zpscqsqph8l.jpg.html)

Andrew also finished building our new rig while I was out of town. Now we can play iracing and Live For Speed this winter to keep our skills sharp!
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/E23CD3F2-E9D6-4D63-A449-2F61903E54C3_zpsbqug2ikv.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/E23CD3F2-E9D6-4D63-A449-2F61903E54C3_zpsbqug2ikv.jpg.html)

[Hindsight]

Haha, slick simulator setup. I've never seen a couple who are both this dedicated to racing!

Also, congrats on the RX8 purchase. I've always been a big fan of the previous two generations of the RX-7, the latter of which makes an awesome LS swap candidate. Was one of the platforms I pondered before going with the 818.

[129st]

Hey everyone. We are about to start ramping up on the 818 again.

Our steering wheel just arrived. Still waiting on the hub.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/03503FB9-D9F3-460A-A3D1-F666E0C2D883_zpsx4oaz6b7.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/03503FB9-D9F3-460A-A3D1-F666E0C2D883_zpsx4oaz6b7.jpg.html)


We are going to start demolition tomorrow to work on removing the FFR gas tank (good riddance, that thing has caused us so many problems!), relocate the battery to behind the passenger seat, and possibly install a kill switch. We will also be redoing the e-brake, center console, and firewall as part of this project.

I just got back from a week of work in upstate NY and a long previous few weeks. I'm excited to get back into the garage.

I picked up my new winter beater recently - an 05 RX8. I got a steal on this car. I went through and painted the entire underside with POR-15 to try to protect against the salt. The car isn't super clean, but it's the lightest weight RX8 ever made and one of the top cars in its SCCA class. No sunroof, no fogs, no traction control. Seems like a great dual duty winter beater autocross car to me. #autocrossallthethings
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/55FF2689-1845-4C57-BDFF-7415A14898E4_zpscqsqph8l.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/55FF2689-1845-4C57-BDFF-7415A14898E4_zpscqsqph8l.jpg.html)

Andrew also finished building our new rig while I was out of town. Now we can play iracing and Live For Speed this winter to keep our skills sharp!
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/E23CD3F2-E9D6-4D63-A449-2F61903E54C3_zpsbqug2ikv.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/E23CD3F2-E9D6-4D63-A449-2F61903E54C3_zpsbqug2ikv.jpg.html)



Does your simulator seat angle, steering wheel and pedal positions match your 818?

[mikeb75]

Great looking winter rides! (Wonder how many here have active profiles in iRacing. Might be fun to set up a race... a Daytona enduro��)

[Tamra]

Haha, slick simulator setup. I've never seen a couple who are both this dedicated to racing!

Also, congrats on the RX8 purchase. I've always been a big fan of the previous two generations of the RX-7, the latter of which makes an awesome LS swap candidate. Was one of the platforms I pondered before going with the 818.

Thanks Hindsight! Yeah the RX8 is pretty fun. We took it out to one autocross event and I ended up 11th overall pax out of 100 drivers, despite not having an alignment, shocks, or sway bars. The car is just really well balanced out of the box. I'm looking forward to doing some basic mods (picked up a $50 sway bar and plan to get some Konis which run around $600, and then an alignment) in the spring.


Does your simulator seat angle, steering wheel and pedal positions match your 818?

No not at all. Not sure how much that matters though. We tend to drive a lot of different cars anyway, so it's good to adapt.


Great looking winter rides! (Wonder how many here have active profiles in iRacing. Might be fun to set up a race... a Daytona enduro��)

Thanks! That would be fun to put together a race. We've still got to learn how to use the simulator though... let's just say my first attempt at autocrossing on the simulator was not indicative of how I usually drive lol

[Mechie3]

Bill with the 818C near me has a sim in his garage. I sucked at it. Bouncing off walls everywhere. Driving well in real life doesn't always translate to the rather numb experience of video games.

[mikeb75]

True, but it beats sitting on the couch waiting for spring :)

[Tamra]

Demolition started today!

Before photo:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/E6F15EC8-1B9D-4EA0-B2D3-1B5DFCD4ECF5_zpswfvb4c1s.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/E6F15EC8-1B9D-4EA0-B2D3-1B5DFCD4ECF5_zpswfvb4c1s.jpg.html)

We removed the seats. One entire seat including sliders and bolts weighs 23.6lbs. Not bad.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/7D0D7E77-C872-4709-A477-986A4DE7C9F9_zps9tclvkzr.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/7D0D7E77-C872-4709-A477-986A4DE7C9F9_zps9tclvkzr.jpg.html)

I have no idea why we used so many rivets. Finally got the upper firewall out. I think we will install our new design with rivnuts.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/7D0D7E77-C872-4709-A477-986A4DE7C9F9_zps9tclvkzr.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/7D0D7E77-C872-4709-A477-986A4DE7C9F9_zps9tclvkzr.jpg.html)

We couldn't get all of the fuel out (filled our two 5 gallon jugs and there's another 3 gallons ish in there) so the gas tank will have to wait to be removed until later in the week. We freed up the wires in the meantime a bit. We are hoping we can slide it out of one side. Also removed the steering wheel in prep for our Sparco wheel (still waiting on hub). Also deleted cruise control, because we really haven't needed it.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/38B86D11-2116-45CE-A47C-3B8CB92FF562_zpshs7oqrnx.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/38B86D11-2116-45CE-A47C-3B8CB92FF562_zpshs7oqrnx.jpg.html)

The cruise control module weighed 2lbs 5 oz. The OEM steering wheel with airbag was 6lbs 9oz. The Sparco wheel, excluding hub, is 2lbs 2oz. I imagine with the hub we won't have much weight savings.

Andrew's method of getting the fuel out - hooked up a jump box to the fuel pump wiring and put the return line in the tank. Worked like a charm!
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/6AA61714-4F8E-4FC0-A16A-C30ACAB530E2_zpsa0vgfvi8.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/6AA61714-4F8E-4FC0-A16A-C30ACAB530E2_zpsa0vgfvi8.jpg.html)


Also, word of warning for anyone using Frozenboost. We drained the coolant today and when I spun out the radiator drain cap, I found that the o-ring included in the kit was badly split. It seems it may not be rated for use with coolant. This has only been exposed to coolant since around March this year.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/E67DA58C-D47E-447B-A1C1-3B6A3748FFFB_zpsdlg4ctgs.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/E67DA58C-D47E-447B-A1C1-3B6A3748FFFB_zpsdlg4ctgs.jpg.html)


Next projects up include removing the gas tank and running fuel lines to the front of the car (driver side side sail). Diet the wiring harness further. Create a new firewall. Make fuse boxes accessible. Create a new center console. Install our new steering wheel. Install new fuel cell in battery tray area. Move battery behind passenger seat.

[Mechie3]

I've seen the frozen boost o-rings broken even without anything in them. I'd recommend using teflon tape/sealant. The o-rings are in compression but not in a groove. Typically o-rings are placed in a groove and compression limited to <15% (IIRC). When not in a groove they can be compressed until they fail. Wouldn't doubt they used cheap rubber too.

That wiring brings back bad memories. lol.

[Hindsight]

I noticed that the threads in the frozen boost heat exchanger (on mine anyway) are super shallow and barely engage the plug. And there seems to be two different Threaded areas, one toward the outside of the bung and one further in. Not sure if yours is the same but if so, thread sealant may not work. I may Weld a new bung on mine... not sure yet.

For the firewall, and other removable panels, consider using self drilling sheet metal screws. Readily available at HD. I used them for my firewall and for a few other small things that I didn't want or need to use a Rivnut for and the screws will drill into the steel frame nicely. Another bonus is that they don't space the part away from the frame like a Rivnut will.

[Tamra]

Thanks for the responses and great ideas!

Yeah @ the wiring... when we stuffed it all in there we weren't planning on ever looking at it again. So much for that. We are going to chase some stuff back to make more room in the console area and possibly also tape it up tidier. Now that we know we dieted it once and still managed to start the car, we have more confidence in deleting more stuff. The total harness only weighed 50lbs so not the most weight gains to be had, but even if we get 5 or 10lbs out it will help in our weight saving goals.

We were surprised that swapping to a race wheel doesn't seem like it will save us much weight. We expected the OEM setup with the airbag to weigh more than 6lbs.

[shoeish]

Holy crap, Live for Speed. I haven't even thought about that since V2 came out. GREAT simulator.

[RetroRacing]

That's not technically a race wheel, a non dot wheel from OMP in suede is pretty light, but expensive at $250. BTW, in my opinion, don't waste you money on a hex type quick release, you will grow to hate it and it's poor fit, letting the wheel rattle around. We use the OMP camed or the SPA Splined, both have ZERO movement and align the same every time, both can be had for between $250 and $350 each (OMP is a bit more expensive). The OMP was also really easy to mount, we just drilled out and threaded the mount and screwed it onto the steering shaft, aligned center, then drilled and pinned the mount to the shaft in both planes. Easy peasy.

[Tamra]

That's not technically a race wheel, a non dot wheel from OMP in suede is pretty light, but expensive at $250. BTW, in my opinion, don't waste you money on a hex type quick release, you will grow to hate it and it's poor fit, letting the wheel rattle around. We use the OMP camed or the SPA Splined, both have ZERO movement and align the same every time, both can be had for between $250 and $350 each (OMP is a bit more expensive). The OMP was also really easy to mount, we just drilled out and threaded the mount and screwed it onto the steering shaft, aligned center, then drilled and pinned the mount to the shaft in both planes. Easy peasy.

You're right. Sparco called it a street wheel. We couldn't figure out what the difference is between a street vs competition wheel, and this wheel met the size and shape requirements we wanted, and also had the horn button included. What is the difference? We haven't installed it yet so if there is something major we would rather know about it now!

We have decided against a quick release for now, as we have managed to get in and out with the OEM steering wheel which was much larger.

[RM1SepEx]

If you used 1/8 rivets thry using a 10-32 self drilling tap and 10-32s to hold the firewall together, there is plenty of metal thickness in the steel tubing and the aluminum for good strength

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GREENLEE-DRILL-TAP-BIT-10-32-NEW-/331477079029?hash=item4d2d92d3f5:g:MccAAOSwxH1T62l k

You can thank Tom Wallace for this one... :rolleyes:

[Tamra]

We removed 100lbs from the car today.

The FFR gas tank weighs 24lbs empty. Our new tank will be <10lbs. That's 14lbs of savings.
The FFR gas tank holds 15 gallons of fuel. Our new tank will be 5 gallons. That's 10 gallons, or 60lbs of fuel savings (we found it necessary to run with the tank full due to fuel starve issues in the FFR tank due to lack of baffling)
Our donor battery weighed 28lbs. Our new battery will weigh 2 lbs. That's 26lbs of savings.
Total: 100lbs.


We also removed another 3.5 lbs of wires from the car (now at a total of 13.5lbs since original harness). A friend of ours brought up that 10lbs of wires is about 2,000 feet. We have a few questions on the wiring diet - please see electrical forum (will post our questions in a bit) to help out if you can!

This is what the car looks like right now. Only 7.5lbs more harness removal and it'll weigh the same as an Iwire. Not sure if it will ever look like one though!
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/44820F29-670C-41F2-A93C-3BEBBF520F36_zpsvkg0y2ds.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/44820F29-670C-41F2-A93C-3BEBBF520F36_zpsvkg0y2ds.jpg.html)

Wires removed last winter (Diet attempt #1) -10lbs
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/F75D11FE-2FA9-4DF8-986C-905A4CFE11A1_zpsg1n6v298.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/F75D11FE-2FA9-4DF8-986C-905A4CFE11A1_zpsg1n6v298.jpg.html)

Wires removed this week (Diet attempt #2) - 3.5lbs
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/BFA1ABD4-5BE5-4A6D-8BF3-5ACB5DAD9536_zps9cfh97h4.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/BFA1ABD4-5BE5-4A6D-8BF3-5ACB5DAD9536_zps9cfh97h4.jpg.html)


We removed the passenger side sail from the car because we noticed some coolant on the bottom.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/ACC70E1D-6008-48E4-A6D0-BBF0B37F5C03_zps64jyofpe.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/ACC70E1D-6008-48E4-A6D0-BBF0B37F5C03_zps64jyofpe.jpg.html)

We discovered that EVERY clamp on the car relating to the coolant system has loosened up significantly. We were able to tighten all of them 1-2 full turns. Has anyone else experienced this? Is it due to vibration? Did the hoses flex with heat? Will this happen again? Should we switch to some other style clamp? At this point we are not sure if the leak is due to the FFR corrugated hose connection points, or if it is due to the clamps loosening up.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/D67CB44D-0423-48F1-AEB3-2C690C29FCED_zps0z5r0liq.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/D67CB44D-0423-48F1-AEB3-2C690C29FCED_zps0z5r0liq.jpg.html)


We also removed our Frozenboost Intercooler. Time for a bigger one so we aren't limited to 300whp. We will be selling it if anyone is interested. It'll make 300whp all day long on the 818, but can't handle the heat when you turn the boost up further, in our experience.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/0E6B54BC-229B-4B6F-BBC4-D537A4167284_zpseeg1slqg.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/0E6B54BC-229B-4B6F-BBC4-D537A4167284_zpseeg1slqg.jpg.html)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/6C1320D0-AE6E-4161-AE35-99A36D8991E9_zpscx6pe0e9.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/6C1320D0-AE6E-4161-AE35-99A36D8991E9_zpscx6pe0e9.jpg.html)

[Hindsight]

100lbs is a lot, nice work! What will your car weight now with the new reductions?

Bob had the same coolant leak issue you did, at the clamps. I think it was Bob..... anyway, he replaced all the work clamps with OE-style constant tension spring clamps. I've preached about them myself as well (in my build thread). Usually it's not the vibration but the hot/cold cycling that causes the rubber to relax a bit and may also cause the clamp to grow. I need to go back and put them on mine as well. I was in a hurry and didn't have the clamps on-hand. McMaster doesn't sell them in the right size so you have to go to the dealer to get them.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

We discovered that EVERY clamp on the car relating to the coolant system has loosened up significantly. We were able to tighten all of them 1-2 full turns. Has anyone else experienced this? Is it due to vibration? Did the hoses flex with heat? Will this happen again? Should we switch to some other style clamp? At this point we are not sure if the leak is due to the FFR corrugated hose connection points, or if it is due to the clamps loosening up.


Tamra
I experienced the exact same problem with all my clamps being loose.
I blamed it on expansion and contraction of the rubber, Then a grove forms in the rubber.
About 2 month ago I switch to all spring type. I'm hoping this takes care of the problem.
http://www.amazon.com/Rotor-Clip-CTB-50ST-Constant-Tension/dp/B005EMZZ9U/ref=lp_3445320011_1_10?srs=3445320011&ie=UTF8&qid=1448756861&sr=8-10

bob

[Tamra]

We should be at 1950lbs without a driver now. We'll find out in the spring for sure.

Bob, do you think now that we have re-tightened all of them and since the groove is already set, that we will be fine? We are hoping not to have to drain the engine coolant... and that would be the only way to get the spring type clamps on. Wish we would have done that from the start!!!

Just posted our questions on the wiring forum, if you guys have any ideas we would appreciate your input!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

We should be at 1950lbs without a driver now. We'll find out in the spring for sure.

Bob, do you think now that we have re-tightened all of them and since the groove is already set, that we will be fine? We are hoping not to have to drain the engine coolant... and that would be the only way to get the spring type clamps on. Wish we would have done that from the start!!!

Just posted our questions on the wiring forum, if you guys have any ideas we would appreciate your input!


I would double check them every couple of months. Until you are convinces they are staying tight.
Can you get to all of them? I have 15 clamps on the 1.5" hose alone.
That amout again for the AWIC and heater system.
Bob

I have drained my coolant at least 6 times. Good thing I don't have to do anything special to bleed the system.
Bob

[Tamra]

You have a point, Bob. Taking the side sail off isn't fun. However, we can easily see if they start to leak again... we will have to think about it. Ours isn't too bad to burp, but it's still not trivial.

We did some more research on the AWIC core. It just doesn't make sense that the Type 3 can't handle over 300hp. We are going to try to get more airflow in the side sails by opening up a vent in the front and using a Naca Duct, separating the coolant tubing a little to help prevent heat transfer, and working on removing some slightly kinked sections of the hose that are likely reducing water flow through the core. Our 1" hoses are too big in a few tight areas, so we will switch to 3/4" hose in those sections and use some 90 degree fittings in others requiring tight bends. We may also switch to a bigger/better air filter to get maximum airflow. If this doesn't work, we will go to the bigger core.

We sent the drawing of the fuel cell off to Boyd Welding tonight. Hopefully they will get back to us soon with a quote. Our idea is to actually use the OEM Subaru flange. We'll see how it works.

[Hindsight]

Oooh, thanks for the link Bob! Does that size fit both the radiator outlets and the places where the radiator hose connects to the FFR corrugated hose? The corrugated hose makes for a larger OD.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Oooh, thanks for the link Bob! Does that size fit both the radiator outlets and the places where the radiator hose connects to the FFR corrugated hose? The corrugated hose makes for a larger OD.
I don't know about the corrugated hose. I didn't even think about getting it out of the original shipping box.
It fits radiator and engine fittings.

This size fits 5/8 heater hose.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0040CYVSG?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00





Bob

[Mechie3]

Are you getting a different frozenboost core?

[Tamra]

Are you getting a different frozenboost core?

I posted this above:



We did some more research on the AWIC core. It just doesn't make sense that the Type 3 can't handle over 300hp. We are going to try to get more airflow in the side sails by opening up a vent in the front and using a Naca Duct, separating the coolant tubing a little to help prevent heat transfer, and working on removing some slightly kinked sections of the hose that are likely reducing water flow through the core. Our 1" hoses are too big in a few tight areas, so we will switch to 3/4" hose in those sections and use some 90 degree fittings in others requiring tight bends. We may also switch to a bigger/better air filter to get maximum airflow. If this doesn't work, we will go to the bigger core.


We are going to try the Type 3 again once we fix the kinked hoses. Enough other people are using them that are over 300whp that it doesn't make sense why it isn't working for us. We are thinking that the water flow is restricted enough that the flow of water through the core is slow, and possibly heating up before it exits the core, resulting in hotter post intercooler temps. We don't have a gauge (yet) to test this theory, and obviously won't be able to until Spring at this point. If fixing the hoses doesn't work we will get a different, bigger Frozenboost core.

[Erik W. Treves]

very common for the hose clamps to become loose after the rubber gets some heat cycles through it...you should be fine now if you retightened them. Make sure you do the other side as well. I did this on mine twice just to be sure..best would be before you go to put the sails back on get the bug nice and hot and then let it cool all the way down to the next day and tighten it once more.

[Mechie3]

Ahh, my bad. That's what I get for reading on a phone with a toddler jumping on me. lol

[xxguitarist]

Any opinions on switching to Oetiker clamps?
We won't if it doesn't have any benefits, but they're highly resistant to vibration, and have a bit of spring flex to accommodate thermal expansion because of the way they work.

They are open-able also, so we wouldn't have to remove the pipe to install.

Something like the 293 series:
http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/37546-8536719.jpg

[Tamra]

Ahh, my bad. That's what I get for reading on a phone with a toddler jumping on me. lol

My fault. I originally posted a photo of it removed, saying we were switching to a different one... then we changed our mind 5 minutes later LOL. I can see how anyone couldn't follow!

[Canadian818]

I'm not sure it was mentioned, what battery did you go with?

[Tamra]

I'm not sure it was mentioned, what battery did you go with?

We hadn't mentioned it yet - planning on this one http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F9LPKJ6

[Aero STI]

I would be concerned about any lithium battery that doesn't have a balance port. Maybe I missed it.

I've used the Shorai lithium batteries with good success. You can add terminals and it's a perfect drop in. http://www.amazon.com/XS-Power-586-Adaptor-Thread/dp/B004XH69MY/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1448852876&sr=1-2

Just make sure to get the charger/maintainer to balance out the internal cells from time to time.

[Pearldrummer7]

We hadn't mentioned it yet - planning on this one http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F9LPKJ6

2.6 pounds is soooooo light. That's awesome. I totally messed up by getting anything other than this battery.

[Tamra]

I would be concerned about any lithium battery that doesn't have a balance port. Maybe I missed it.

I've used the Shorai lithium batteries with good success. You can add terminals and it's a perfect drop in. http://www.amazon.com/XS-Power-586-Adaptor-Thread/dp/B004XH69MY/ref=sr_1_2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1448852876&sr=1-2

Just make sure to get the charger/maintainer to balance out the internal cells from time to time.

The Battery Tender one I linked has an internal balancer. We know quite a few people that have used them with good success in the autocross world, so we will probably stick with it. 2.6lbs for $140 is tough to beat! :) I've heard the Shorai's are pretty good too though.

[RetroRacing]

now Im pissed. Here is what we use, and yes, they do cost that much.https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=10410
Oh, and the difference in the steering wheels between race and road is weight/construction. you can save some there, but it's weight vs money. I choose to spend rather than lose 40 lbs .....

[Tamra]

Glad we found you a battery that could save you some money :)

On the steering wheel - so you're saying the street ones are actually stronger/simpler construction than the race ones? But heavier?

[RetroRacing]

Yup

[Tamra]

Making some progress on the wiring harness.

Before: http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/4213E090-DC5D-4EBA-9EF3-79416BC2BEAA_zpsxjxh92wp.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/4213E090-DC5D-4EBA-9EF3-79416BC2BEAA_zpsxjxh92wp.jpg.html)

After: http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/0F2D3EBD-1E60-47FB-B620-C5E90B14C5A0_zpsz2sly09y.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/0F2D3EBD-1E60-47FB-B620-C5E90B14C5A0_zpsz2sly09y.jpg.html)

This is an additional 10 lbs of wiring removed, now for a total of 20lbs removed. Total harness started at 48lbs, so now should be 28lbs, about the same as an Iwire.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/A7C6179E-2678-4742-8D2D-2DE2CCDFF9D2_zpsdly4m0qc.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/A7C6179E-2678-4742-8D2D-2DE2CCDFF9D2_zpsdly4m0qc.jpg.html)

[Hindsight]

Wow, now that is starting to look very trim. Already it appears you have less wires than I do in the tunnel. But that's what I get for adding a wideband, ABS, Traction Control, and a ton of sensors, although I think you have a lot of that too?

[xxguitarist]

Wow, now that is starting to look very trim. Already it appears you have less wires than I do in the tunnel. But that's what I get for adding a wideband, ABS, Traction Control, and a ton of sensors, although I think you have a lot of that too?

Wideband, Boost, Oil temp, Oil pressure, Pre & Post IC air temps, but not ABS/ TC- neither of those are actually legal in EM. The gauge wiring is the little black bundle outside of the center tunnel, towards the seatbelt/harness in photo 2.

[Frank818]

Nice wires! :)

I can confirm, for those reading, that InfinityBox does remove wires. And I have many gizmos that require direct wires front to back, so it's not that bad for those asking about InfinityBox.

[Tamra]

Well these should be fun to make fit. 18x11, et 20. Current clearance issues include the upper link (hitting). Looks like the shock will hit next. Surprisingly, we have clearance on the OEM lower trailing link. We are picking up some used up 315/30/18 Hoosiers from a friend this weekend to use for test fitting.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/51AD0D46-F556-4D43-AB74-7A0A721BC106_zps4bs7heiv.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/51AD0D46-F556-4D43-AB74-7A0A721BC106_zps4bs7heiv.jpg.html)


http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/8A0209C6-2DCD-4996-95A3-7A769D6B80D8_zpsydzewdyz.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/8A0209C6-2DCD-4996-95A3-7A769D6B80D8_zpsydzewdyz.jpg.html)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/D7943C6F-0305-496F-B912-FEBBF5B08B55_zpslgytm449.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/D7943C6F-0305-496F-B912-FEBBF5B08B55_zpslgytm449.jpg.html)

[bbjones121]

Have you solved weak CV shaft issue?

[Hindsight]

Woah, those are huge!

[Tamra]

Have you solved weak CV shaft issue?

No, but we haven't had a problem, yet. I imagine that launching with 315 race tires will cause a problem at some point though. We want to wait and see how often we break them. If it's once a season, then upgrading may not be warranted and we'll just bring spares. If we start breaking them left and right then we'll need to figure something out.

We picked up some junk yard axles from a WRX to build spares. Unfortunately, one had the wrong spline count. Has anyone found a way to identify from the exterior if they are aftermarket replacements with the wrong spline?



Woah, those are huge!


We are also going to fit 11" wide wheels on the front with 275's... later :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

We are also going to fit 11" wide wheels on the front with 275's... later :)

Tamra,
we need full counter steering to get out big oversteer slide. It will be difficult to get that with 275s.
Our front axle is only 600-700 lbs. I don't think we need anything more than our 235.
Michael wants more tire everywhere.
Bob

[Frank818]

315s....

Oh wait, you meant 315s???

:)

[Tamra]

Tamra,
we need full counter steering to get out big oversteer slide. It will be difficult to get that with 275s.
Our front axle is only 600-700 lbs. I don't think we need anything more than our 235.
Michael wants more tire everywhere.
Bob

The Lotuses are the most similar comparison to our car, and they are running 275's in the front. More tire within reason is always better :)

Also, by the time you are at full counter the run is done, competitiveness wise.

[Hindsight]

I read somewhere.... can't remember where, someone giving a history of tire widths run in the Miata road racing class. Some said wider wasn't needed, then people went wider and it made them faster. This cycle kept repeating until they literally couldn't stuff any winder tire in there. So I guess wider is always better. I would say the exception is when it comes to staggered sizes front vs rear, tuning the difference to help tune oversteer and understeer.

I read a few interesting articles recently that talk about how tire width has less to do with launch traction than diameter. Larger diameter gives a longer footprint for straight line acceleration, while wider width gives wider footprint for lateral resistance. Makes sense. I'm sure wider will help launch a bit too though.

[Scargo]

There's another component in the equation. For autocross you will never get the heat buildup in the tires that you normally need. In road racing it is pretty important to not go too big.
I'm no expert, but I assume that auto-X tires are compounded to be sticky sooner than later. From seeing the rubber flying off them I also guess thy don't last long, either.

[Canadian818]

Well these should be fun to make fit. 18x11, et 20. Current clearance issues include the upper link (hitting). Looks like the shock will hit next. Surprisingly, we have clearance on the OEM lower trailing link. We are picking up some used up 315/30/18 Hoosiers from a friend this weekend to use for test fitting.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/8A0209C6-2DCD-4996-95A3-7A769D6B80D8_zpsydzewdyz.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/8A0209C6-2DCD-4996-95A3-7A769D6B80D8_zpsydzewdyz.jpg.html)


When I test fit mine I removed the inside spacers on the upper trailing arm. It clears and will just require some offset spacers. It wasn't all that close to the coilover. Mind you I was at full droop with a preloaded shock, but clearance should improve at ride height.

[Tamra]

Well you know us, we don't always do things the easy way. We don't want to add spacers to the wheels, because that will make the car wider, which is worse for autocross. So, we are going to move the suspension inward.

We will be making a custom lower trailing arm. More details on that to come later.

Once we moved the spacers on the upper trailing link, it actually fit with some small space to the wheel. However, the upper shock was still too close for comfort.

We are going to make a bracket to move the lower shock mounting location in about 1". Once we do that, we will also be able to move the upper trailing link in, like this:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/E5F7E2F7-2A9A-4CA6-9ED8-0FBEA394FEB4_zps0f3pxiyn.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/E5F7E2F7-2A9A-4CA6-9ED8-0FBEA394FEB4_zps0f3pxiyn.jpg.html)

Doing so gives us a ton of space. Not pictured is the upper shock clearance, which was improved significantly as well.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/A8D96DB5-70FF-4AC2-813D-9ABBF220E998_zpsk7anyyfh.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/A8D96DB5-70FF-4AC2-813D-9ABBF220E998_zpsk7anyyfh.jpg.html)


Here's a photo of the wheel bolted and, shock attached, and the hub jacked up to ride height.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/FAFD5EFC-F034-4029-BE6B-B0A40451BD17_zpsvpjcjui5.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/FAFD5EFC-F034-4029-BE6B-B0A40451BD17_zpsvpjcjui5.jpg.html)

We may also play with clearance by threading these out further. Does anyone know how long the threaded section is?
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/5B8962B4-9895-4713-9449-3C8E626C832D_zpsq6zkwh1h.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/5B8962B4-9895-4713-9449-3C8E626C832D_zpsq6zkwh1h.jpg.html)
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/2330D320-A41E-474B-95D9-4F89111F33BF_zpsy1al60iz.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/2330D320-A41E-474B-95D9-4F89111F33BF_zpsy1al60iz.jpg.html)

[D Clary]

You can by those links from speedway at almost any length. You can gain a lot of clearance widening the track within the limits of the halfshafts.

[Pearldrummer7]

Tamra and Andrew-

Are you worried about what moving the mounting points outside the bracket will do to your suspension geometry? I'm sure you'll get the car realigned, but it'll still be different suspension mounting points, relative to the hub.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Tamra,
If you shorten all three lateral links to bring the wheel is some more. Watch the inner CV joint to make sure you still have internal clearance at all ride heights.
Bob

[matteo92065]

How are you going to address the fender/tire clearance? Normally the tire goes up into the fender by 3-4". Are you going to cut the fiberglass fender out then put on a flare, or...?
48424 48425

[Pearldrummer7]

How are you going to address the fender/tire clearance? Normally the tire goes up into the fender by 3-4". Are you going to cut the fiberglass fender out then put on a flare, or...?
48424 48425

Matteo- what size tires are those?

[Hindsight]

How are you going to address the fender/tire clearance?

Like this... duh!
http://i.imgur.com/DPfN7bx.jpg (http://imgur.com/DPfN7bx)

[bbjones121]

Like this... duh!
http://i.imgur.com/DPfN7bx.jpg (http://imgur.com/DPfN7bx)

OMG that looks terrible!! I can't believe people think that looks "cool".

[matteo92065]

Matteo- what size tires are those?

235/40R18 If I go any wider I'll have to limit up travel or ???

To Hindsight -> Thats a funny picture!, How does that work??

[xxguitarist]

You can by those links from speedway at almost any length. You can gain a lot of clearance widening the track within the limits of the halfshafts.

Tamra,
If you shorten all three lateral links to bring the wheel is some more. Watch the inner CV joint to make sure you still have internal clearance at all ride heights.
Bob

We are going to try to keep at about the current hub positioning in-out wise. We have decent clearance on the upper forward link, just keeping options open.


Tamra and Andrew-

Are you worried about what moving the mounting points outside the bracket will do to your suspension geometry? I'm sure you'll get the car realigned, but it'll still be different suspension mounting points, relative to the hub.
Assuming you mean the upper forward link, it still attaches on the same axis, so I'm not convinced it would have much effect. I'd be more worried about the cantilevered single shear mounting vs double shear than any change in wheel movements.

If you meant the shock repositioning, yes, it will reduce our wheel rate slightly. Haven't calculated the change, but it isn't huge. The other factor is the angle change, so we need to double check the angles between the path of motion and the shock- ideally about perpendicular. Again It's not a huge change, so likely something we can work with.



How are you going to address the fender/tire clearance? Normally the tire goes up into the fender by 3-4". Are you going to cut the fiberglass fender out then put on a flare, or...?
48424 48425
We will be making flares, and probably pretty significantly sized ones. Leaning towards building up the fender on the car, then pulling a mold to make the actual parts. Bonus: making flares for other builders would be possible.

[xxguitarist]

Like this... duh!


http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-basic/puke.gif

[Hindsight]

Bonus: making flares for other builders would be possible.

Yes please

[Hindsight]

To Hindsight -> Thats a funny picture!, How does that work??

No idea, I stay away from things that are all show and no go (even though I personally don't even see how this qualifies as "show" but some people are really into it). To each their own!

[Scargo]

Funny story: I argued with a guy that the wheel-tire combo he was selling (off his Subaru) would not fit on Subarus. He got really pissed and told me in rather nasty terms to take a hike. Then he posted a picture and it looked much like what is above. Maximum stretched tires and crazy negative camber.
OK, I was wrong... they do fit.

[flynntuna]

Making a flare that incorporates a larger side scoop could solve two problems. :)

[Tamra]

So we have some fun facts to share tonight. Our bump steer method is not super precise, but it definitely indicated a problem that we need to correct.

Anyone want to guess what the bump steer/toe effect is?

Try 1/4" (total) at 1" of compression, and 3/4" in at 2" of compression (not good, should be closer to 0).


Camber gain?

.6 degrees the first 1", 1.6 degrees by the 2nd" of compression (so so, should be more).


Here was our technique. For camber, we set the car to ride height and set the angle and 0'd the level.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/5AA0EABF-1B16-49A7-B934-04FA28FFABD2_zpscwmhcvkw.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/5AA0EABF-1B16-49A7-B934-04FA28FFABD2_zpscwmhcvkw.jpg.html)

At 2" of compression, the gauge read 1.6 degrees of camber gain.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/CDC7A08B-1C83-4519-B014-2ED4E8D1D600_zps5fyrh89t.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/CDC7A08B-1C83-4519-B014-2ED4E8D1D600_zps5fyrh89t.jpg.html)


For toe, we set up a laser and attached a plate to the hub. We calculated the difference between two points, 6" to the left, and 6" to the right of the hub center, and multiplied by 2 for a standard toe plate width. Calculation was 1/4" total toe in at 1" compression, 3/4" total toe in at 2" of compression. Definitely designing a bump steer kit!! Also, may incorporate ackerman and steering ratio changes.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/6F4E8824-ABB3-42C9-8312-3AB463BE487F_zpsajd41spk.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/6F4E8824-ABB3-42C9-8312-3AB463BE487F_zpsajd41spk.jpg.html)

[Scargo]

I am shocked that it's so bad. Since I went straight to my own S2000 based front suspension I have had fun using the VSusp app (http://vsusp.com/#0.8%26project_name%3Adefault%20values%26trim%7Bbo dy_roll_angle%3A0%7Cfront.left_bump%3A0%7Crear.lef t_bump%3A0%7Cfront.right_bump%3A0%7Crear.right_bum p%3A0%7D%26front%7Bframe.susp_type%3A0%7Cframe.bot tom_y%3A9200%7Cframe.center_to_upper_mount_x%3A285 00%7Cframe.bottom_to_upper_mount_y%3A24000%7Cframe .center_to_lower_mount_x%3A17000%7Cframe.bottom_to _lower_mount_y%3A2400%7Ccontrol_arms.upper_length% 3A24800%7Ccontrol_arms.lower_length%3A37500%7Cknuc kles.hub_to_upper_x%3A15000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lowe r_x%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lower_y%3A13000%7Ckn uckles.hub_to_upper_y%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_st rut_axis%3A14000%7Cknuckles.strut_incl%3A8000%7Cwh eels.offset%3A4000%7Cwheels.diameter%3A1500%7Cwhee ls.diameter_expl%3A35000%7Ctires.size_convention%3 A0%7Ctires.section_width%3A19500%7Ctires.aspect_ra tio%3A4500%7Ctires.diameter_expl%3A50000%7Ctires.w idth_expl%3A7620%7Ctires.compression%3A0%7D%26rear %7Bframe.susp_type%3A0%7Cframe.bottom_y%3A9200%7Cf rame.center_to_upper_mount_x%3A28500%7Cframe.botto m_to_upper_mount_y%3A24000%7Cframe.center_to_lower _mount_x%3A17000%7Cframe.bottom_to_lower_mount_y%3 A2400%7Ccontrol_arms.upper_length%3A24800%7Ccontro l_arms.lower_length%3A37500%7Cknuckles.hub_to_uppe r_x%3A15000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_lower_x%3A13000%7Ckn uckles.hub_to_lower_y%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_up per_y%3A13000%7Cknuckles.hub_to_strut_axis%3A14000 %7Cknuckles.strut_incl%3A8000%7Cwheels.offset%3A40 00%7Cwheels.diameter%3A1500%7Cwheels.diameter_expl %3A35000%7Ctires.size_convention%3A0%7Ctires.secti on_width%3A19500%7Ctires.aspect_ratio%3A4500%7Ctir es.diameter_expl%3A50000%7Ctires.width_expl%3A7620 %7Ctires.compression%3A0%7D%26pref%7Bdiag1.px_per_ mm%3A200%7Cdiag1.front_or_rear%3Afront%7Ctab.activ e%3A0%7Cunits%3A0%7Cshow.f%3A1%7Cshow.ca%3A1%7Csho w.k%3A1%7Cshow.w%3A1%7Cshow.t%3A1%7Cshow.rc%3A1%7C show.ic%3A1%7Cshow.fvsa%3A0%7Cshow.tl%3A0%7Cshow.k pil%3A0%7Credraw_during_drag%3A1%7Cchart.x_axis_ce nter%3A0%7Cchart.x_axis_window%3A10%7Cchart.x_axis _num_steps%3A21%7Cchart.x_axis_field%3Atrim.body_r oll_angle%7Cchart.y_axis_fields%3A%5BFR%5D.general .roll_center.y%7D). It's my favorite for a free one. Have you played with it?
I'm sure everyone can benefit from what you come up with. My biggest chore right now is getting or modifying a rack with right length pivot points so it does not mess up the geometry during travel up and down.

[RetroRacing]

Bump steer spacer?

[Tamra]

We will be adding spacers to correct bumpsteer. Going to work on correcting bump steer, correcting ackerman (need to research this more), and quickening steering. We wanted to get an idea of how significant the problem was first. It's bad, obviously.

[Pearldrummer7]

Maybe this is just my unfamiliarity with suspension/steering geometry but... How do you plan on correcting slip angle to maintain (or increase over stock?) Ackerman geometry? Modifying the mounting points of the tie rods on the knuckles?

[Mechie3]

Have you seen this? Might generate some ideas:

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/50/

[Mitch Wright]

This is what FFR suggest doing to correct bump steer at R ride height.
48583

[Aero STI]

Have you seen this? Might generate some ideas:

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/50/

Perrin discontinued this product. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2046356&highlight=perrin+supersteer&page=6

[xxguitarist]

Have you seen this? Might generate some ideas:

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/50/

Yep! That's the general idea of what I'm looking to design. Still a ways out on that bracket, but it seems very possible to incorporate all 3: Steering ratio, ackerman, and bump correction.

[Oppenheimer]

Back to fender flares for a moment, in an episode of OverHaulin', where they made extensive mods to a Lotus Europa (Fiberglass body), Foose flared the rear fenders to accept some really large wheels. What he did was make a series of vertical slices in the fender, about 6 inches apart, maybe a foot high. OK, they weren't all vertical, they followed the wheel opening, so that the center cut was vertical, the others angled to the left or right, as they radiated away from center. This created a series of fender flaps.

He then mounted the test wheel/tire, and temp screwed each fender flap to a flexible metal plate so that there was just the right amount of clearance at full suspension travel. Then he glassed to fill in the gaps between each flap, then removed the metal plate. Fenders now flared to perfectly fit the wheels.

[flynntuna]

Oh yeah, I saw that, two episodes from what I remember. It's on YouTube.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4AGknF9L-O8

[Tamra]

Thanks guys! We will be diving into the wheel fitment and fender flares when we return from vacation... going to Belize for 10 days with my family for Christmas!

In the meantime, I finished up a little more on the wiring harness tonight...

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/0A038E5D-AD96-46B9-A39E-64F7E342050F_zpsdusmjtqu.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/0A038E5D-AD96-46B9-A39E-64F7E342050F_zpsdusmjtqu.jpg.html)

[Kurk818]

WOW! What a difference. Nice work!

[Pearldrummer7]

Wow that's such an awesome difference. Makes me want to go in there and re do mine!

Enjoy Belize; that part of the country is supposed to be beautiful.

[icky]

Thanks guys! We will be diving into the wheel fitment and fender flares when we return from vacation... going to Belize for 10 days with my family for Christmas!

In the meantime, I finished up a little more on the wiring harness tonight...



lucky dog you.... post picks when you return. Hopefully you don't role a golf cart, safe travels.... Where in Belize are you going?

[Oppenheimer]

The Belize Zoo is nice. Placencia is nice. Ambirgris Caye is nice. The Jungle is nice. Belize City, not so nice.

If you SCUBA dive, its awesome. But no need to do The Blue Hole, unless its just to say you did it. Not much to see there. Stingray alley is good. I prefer the snorkel tour though, not the SCUBA. You can interact with the rays more in shallow water.

They have their own beer Belikin. They even make a Stout. Its not bad.

[Hindsight]

Wow, excellent job on the wiring, especially since you did it after installing in the car. Enjoy your trip! Sounds awesome.

[xxguitarist]

These two items showed up in the mazdaspeed parts fetcher today... Wonder what they're for?!

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/59C2103B-BE7D-48B8-A6D8-8695B6442A74_zpsicgltdfx.jpg

In other news, We're back from Belize, and will share some photos later. We explored inland for a while (San Ignacio, Belmopan) then went out to San Pedro. Lots of fun, plenty tired still, but had a great time.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hey Andrew and Tamra, WELCOME HOME
It's been a little quiet without you.
That looks like my gas tanks' little brother.
Happy Holidays,
Bob

[Tamra]

Hey Andrew and Tamra, WELCOME HOME
It's been a little quiet without you.
That looks like my gas tanks' little brother.
Happy Holidays,
Bob

Thanks Bob. We will pick back up this weekend. We have Thurs-Sun off, although Fri evening and part of Saturday we will have some family time with the other side of the family.


Also, I just found out today that I won the SCCA Solo Rookie of the Year award! http://www.solomatters.com/2015_solo_rookie_of_the_year

49226

[Mitch Wright]

Congratulations Tamra

[DSR-3]

Also, I just found out today that I won the SCCA Solo Rookie of the Year award!
Congratulations on the award, your championship, and what sounds like a great year!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Thanks Bob. We will pick back up this weekend. We have Thurs-Sun off, although Fri evening and part of Saturday we will have some family time with the other side of the family.
Also, I just found out today that I won the SCCA Solo Rookie of the Year award! http://www.solomatters.com/2015_solo_rookie_of_the_year

49226

Congratulations, That is great.

[Erik W. Treves]

Very Nice!!! nice job!

[Hindsight]

Wow, that's a huge accomplishment, congrats!

[AZPete]

Congrats, Tamra!

[Tamra]

Thanks everyone!

[RetroRacing]

Going to be ready for Road Racing soon....just sayin ;)

[Frank818]

Congrats for rookie title!

[Pearldrummer7]

Congrats, now-seasoned vet!

[Mechie3]

Congrats!

[Tamra]

Thanks Mechie!!


Digging into the car further. We test fit some Diamond 15x10's. With a little massaging of the calipers they fit just fine.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/533CFCB5-953B-4A34-BD1A-5ECEAB41CDAC_zpscxlaass3.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/533CFCB5-953B-4A34-BD1A-5ECEAB41CDAC_zpscxlaass3.jpg.html)

Future fender flares to come:
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/2A5AE993-3C1F-40CF-A605-F8A23C605095_zpsviqu3ula.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/2A5AE993-3C1F-40CF-A605-F8A23C605095_zpsviqu3ula.jpg.html)

Started some weight loss projects. The front sway brackets weighed nearly 2lbs. Also removed the battery tray in prep for the fuel tank.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/D471085E-D13A-405C-952B-D4C03BB93A4B_zpsi5ssf9hi.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/D471085E-D13A-405C-952B-D4C03BB93A4B_zpsi5ssf9hi.jpg.html)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/F63E87E9-2B5E-4499-AC9D-4129127DD9A7_zpszscklt0x.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/F63E87E9-2B5E-4499-AC9D-4129127DD9A7_zpszscklt0x.jpg.html)

Gas tank fits through with no cutting. We will work on securing it tomorrow.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/E908DAB6-D3A1-42AE-B316-756F7B086FF6_zpscqtqvqqi.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/E908DAB6-D3A1-42AE-B316-756F7B086FF6_zpscqtqvqqi.jpg.html)

Our car is also sticking to his new year's resolution of weight loss.. Another 40 lbs gone. We tapped the brackets for easy future refitment of the windshield.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/FFBF2224-56C5-4C29-805C-D1C00F47A7CE_zpswaeszgxb.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/FFBF2224-56C5-4C29-805C-D1C00F47A7CE_zpswaeszgxb.jpg.html)

[Hindsight]

Could save a good chuck of weight by removing that windshield! Could you get away with running no windshield at an autocross, then adding it back on for the street?

[Tamra]

Yep, that's basically what we are setting it up for! We will need to find a way to finish the piece in front of the dash. Solution tbd.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Could save a good chuck of weight by removing that windshield! Could you get away with running no windshield at an autocross, then adding it back on for the street?

Looks great Tamra.
Will you add a sending unit to your tank.
This is the one I used: http://www.egauges.com/11-5-290mm-90-0-Ohms-p/224-229.htm Working perfect.

Hindsight, Autocross required me to have a face shield on my helmet when running with no windshield.
Bob

[Pearldrummer7]

Looks great Tamra.
Will you add a sending unit to your tank.
This is the one I used: http://www.egauges.com/11-5-290mm-90-0-Ohms-p/224-229.htm Working perfect.

Hindsight, Autocross required me to have a face shield on my helmet when running with no windshield.
Bob

I bet you'd want a face shield whether it was mandatory or not. It gets pretty windy when they're open faced (though I always have the windscreen). The videos I've seen of Andrew and Tamra autox'ing have them in full faced helmets, I believe.

[xxguitarist]

Looks great Tamra.
Will you add a sending unit to your tank.
This is the one I used: http://www.egauges.com/11-5-290mm-90-0-Ohms-p/224-229.htm Working perfect.

Hindsight, Autocross required me to have a face shield on my helmet when running with no windshield.
Bob

Bob, we're going to use the OEM sender that lives next to the fuel pump on that oval flange. It looks like we should be able to get full movement range. I don't remember if that was a 0-50 ohm or a 0-100 ohm range though, IE if it was in serial with another sender? We will figure it out. Even if it's not great, it's better than the accuracy we had with the FFR tank.


We do wear full face helmets for autox, by choice. We'll just flip down the visors to drive sans windshield.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, we're going to use the OEM sender that lives next to the fuel pump on that oval flange. It looks like we should be able to get full movement range. I don't remember if that was a 0-50 ohm or a 0-100 ohm range though, IE if it was in serial with another sender? We will figure it out. Even if it's not great, it's better than the accuracy we had with the FFR tank.


We do wear full face helmets for autox, by choice. We'll just flip down the visors to drive sans windshield.

I went with the tubular sending unit so I could stuff the tank with foam.
I think using 1 OEM sensor will read 1/2 to empty. And the low fuel warning light will still work.
We run a full face helmet but typically with the visor up..
When we were running go kart mode the visor was down. There is sand and pebbles coming of the front wheels.
Bob

[xxguitarist]

Likewise. I pop my visor off for normal cars, but had the shield on & down for go-kart. With the new proposed ECE helmet allowance, I've got another helmet that I can wear for autox, and I have a handful of shields for it.

We don't have a lot of need for foam with a 8x12x15 (WxLxH) tank, and the pickup is located at the rear center, so that any accel slosh will ensure a wet sock.

[metros]

Is the front fuel tank home built or purchased? Dimensions and capacity?

What offset is the final product of your 15x10 wheels? I see a sizable spacer there.

[Tamra]

Is the front fuel tank home built or purchased? Dimensions and capacity?

What offset is the final product of your 15x10 wheels? I see a sizable spacer there.

It was made by Boyd Welding and it is 12x8x15. It holds almost 6 gallons of fuel. They made it to Andrew's drawing, to be used with the OEM fuel pump flange, and to fit in the battery tray area without requiring any structural chassis cutting.

The wheels don't have any spacer, that is just the rotor that you are seeing in the photo. They are 15x10 and have a 6" backspace (equivalent of around 13mm offset). We were originally thinking of going with 15x11's, but a friend locally had a set of used 15x10's so we picked them up instead. They'll fit the 275's just fine.

[Tamra]

Another quick update.

On Sunday afternoon we had some friends over to help on the car. Working on the car is always more fun with friends.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/23FA0E4C-100D-44D6-A81C-3E3D58ED04DE_zpsvbbzfzjj.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/23FA0E4C-100D-44D6-A81C-3E3D58ED04DE_zpsvbbzfzjj.jpg.html)

Andrew welded on some tabs for the gas tank. Our TIG machine is out of commission waiting on a part so he had to use his new midget stick welder.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/2479A4F2-2F08-44B0-AC68-BB06959BCEF8_zpsfao9mkwo.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/2479A4F2-2F08-44B0-AC68-BB06959BCEF8_zpsfao9mkwo.jpg.html)

We switched the harness bar to the back of the roll bar for even more seat clearance, now that we won't have anything to restrict us from going back to the roll bar. Remember, we re-welded the tabs to have the proper height for our seat belts.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/BFF83979-F499-4760-A3CB-828F059AB7CF_zpsyhwnpube.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/BFF83979-F499-4760-A3CB-828F059AB7CF_zpsyhwnpube.jpg.html)

Also to come... going to redesign our shifter mounting location for convenience reasons, since we will now be running the fuel and AWIC lines through the center console.
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/24B3738C-9046-410D-9214-6494120F4F78_zps5iv5o07p.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/24B3738C-9046-410D-9214-6494120F4F78_zps5iv5o07p.jpg.html)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/5856D2EE-92B4-4F1B-A85C-674A6108781F_zpsdwmwrsw9.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/5856D2EE-92B4-4F1B-A85C-674A6108781F_zpsdwmwrsw9.jpg.html)

More to come on this later this week.

[Frank818]

It's cool to see you are working on optimising your solution. That's the funniest part to me. Keep on optimising! Sky isn't the limit! :)

[Tamra]

Thanks Frank!

The to-do list is long... already crossed off a few items on this list though. Lots of fun projects for the next 3 months!
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/447815A0-24F0-4AB3-9E07-DC9E0614FF51_zpskvhpzg9w.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/447815A0-24F0-4AB3-9E07-DC9E0614FF51_zpskvhpzg9w.jpg.html)

[flynntuna]

Writing uphill... Easy to see the optimism in you. ;)

[Pearldrummer7]

Writing uphill... Easy to see the optimism in you. ;)

Haha

Nice list. I should get a whiteboard...

What's wrong with your speedo? And how do you fix it?

[Hindsight]

Nice! What happened to the TIG?

I ran my AWIC lines through the console as well. Am wrapping the cold one with insulation too.

[xxguitarist]

Writing uphill. Interesting. I'm the block lettering, Tamra is the lowercase.

Speedo: suspected fried speed sensor in transmission, it's a bit close to our downpipe.

Tig: diagnosed as boost board failure, likely due to poor grounding & high frequency noise in the mains line. This rental house is definitely poorly grounded. AHP customer support is mediocre, but after chasing after them for a bit, they're sending out a new board soon-ish(?)
The new welder is about the size of a large lunchbox, might weigh 10 lbs? It's Eastwood's 80A model. Very convenient, and you can use it as a scratch start TIG also, which isn't as bad as I expected, except for breaking the arc- you have to just pull the torch away, which seems non-ideal. No control of current mid-weld either, just set it and get moving.

AWIC lines: Not sure we'll have room for insulation there, but it can't help to get it away from the engine coolant lines. Hopefully this improves our idle awic temps. We are also addressing a few pinched/kinked sections while we're at it.

[Frank818]

AWIC lines, you could wrap the cold ones with radiant heat insulation, like gold wrap. Should not prevent much heat from escaping and should prevent heat from entering.

[Hindsight]

Tig: diagnosed as boost board failure, likely due to poor grounding & high frequency noise in the mains line. This rental house is definitely poorly grounded. AHP customer support is mediocre, but after chasing after them for a bit, they're sending out a new board soon-ish(?)
The new welder is about the size of a large lunchbox, might weigh 10 lbs? It's Eastwood's 80A model. Very convenient, and you can use it as a scratch start TIG also, which isn't as bad as I expected, except for breaking the arc- you have to just pull the torch away, which seems non-ideal. No control of current mid-weld either, just set it and get moving.

AWIC lines: Not sure we'll have room for insulation there, but it can't help to get it away from the engine coolant lines. Hopefully this improves our idle awic temps. We are also addressing a few pinched/kinked sections while we're at it.

What made you go with a stick welder instead of a MIG? Are you happy with having it? For doing things like welding harness tabs onto the frame, I find myself wishing for a small MIG welder which I would have an easier time welding it tight spots and welding upside down. TIG welding on your back is TOUGH. But I guess a stick welder may work well too..... what's your take on that? Also, glad you were able to get support from AHP. Thanks again for your input on welders back before I bought my TIG. I'm still very happy with the eastwood. I actually welded some 1/2" thick steel with it the other day (it's only rated at 1/4").

The insulation I will put on the AWIC line is just the wrap-around stuff from Summit. Has velcro on it, very thin layer of fiberglass mat, followed by a reflective outer coating. IT's inexpensive and not bulky. Should fit fine.

[STiPWRD]

AWIC lines, you could wrap the cold ones with radiant heat insulation, like gold wrap. Should not prevent much heat from escaping and should prevent heat from entering.
Frank, the reflective take will have very minimal impact on the AWIC lines inside the console since radiation heat exchange relies on a large temperature difference between the two things transferring heat. That's why it works so well inside the engine bay on either the exhaust or on stuff you want to shield from the exhaust - because the exhaust is so much hotter than anything else. Inside the console your best bet would be to thicken the insulator thickness or limit the contact points on the AWIC hoses.

[xxguitarist]

What made you go with a stick welder instead of a MIG? Are you happy with having it? For doing things like welding harness tabs onto the frame, I find myself wishing for a small MIG welder which I would have an easier time welding it tight spots and welding upside down. TIG welding on your back is TOUGH. But I guess a stick welder may work well too..... what's your take on that? Also, glad you were able to get support from AHP. Thanks again for your input on welders back before I bought my TIG. I'm still very happy with the eastwood. I actually welded some 1/2" thick steel with it the other day (it's only rated at 1/4").

The insulation I will put on the AWIC line is just the wrap-around stuff from Summit. Has velcro on it, very thin layer of fiberglass mat, followed by a reflective outer coating. IT's inexpensive and not bulky. Should fit fine.


I've never liked to MIG, though I know it has lots of uses. It's great for tacking and welding out of position, I've just never been any good at it the few times I tried.
The fuel tank brackets I TIG'd from below, and stick from above since I needed to fill more on the top.

Reasons for this machine:
Mostly I wanted TIG ability too, while my TIG was down.
The eastwood 80 was cheap. Really cheap. $250 w/ the TIG kit.
Eastwood should be easier to get ahold of in case of a problem
Onsite repairs with stick (no gas required)
Portability



Insulation:
Agree that thickness is needed to try and get much effect with low temp differentials, it's not really a radiant heat situation.

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the info Andrew. Maybe I should be considering a stick welder as my TIG backup instead of MIG. Can you share any pics of things you have welded with the new stick welder so I can get an idea of what that Eastwood can lay down?

[xxguitarist]

Sure, I can post a sample within a couple days. I'm not a pro at it, but it's not too bad either.

[Hindsight]

Cool thanks Andrew! I'm no pro either so whatever your welds look like are probably what I could expect from my own hand as well.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Speedo: suspected fried speed sensor in transmission, it's a bit close to our downpipe.


Andrew
When I killed my transmission a couple of months ago, I replaced it with a 2012 5MT.
It wasn't machined for a VSS.
This was my solution, if you are interested.

My calculation:
Subaru says 4104 pulsed per mile.
My R888 255/40ZR17 are 827 revs per mile
4104/827= 4.9625 pulses need per rear tire rev.

Very close to 5. Less than 1% error. At 100mph my spedo will read 100.76mph.
I remove the left rear ABS ring.
I inserted an $10 npn industrial Prox sensor into the ABS hole. reading the heads of the lug bolts.
Both ECU and Dash cluster are working perfect.
Bob