FFRSpec72 818R Build Seattle WA

[FFRSpec72]

Hopefully the holes are aligned but if not, try unbolting the top bolt that goes through the spindle and lower coilover. You should be able to tilt the spindle outward enough to pull the inner CV joint off the trans. I don't think it'll mess up the alignment either.

No they are not, thanks for the tip on what to try. Anyone know what size the roll pin is as these were off the car when I got the parts and that is why I forgot the pins since I did not disassemble the car

[STiPWRD]

No they are not, thanks for the tip on what to try. Anyone know what size the roll pin is as these were off the car when I got the parts and that is why I forgot the pins since I did not disassemble the car
I'm not sure of the diameter but it's subaru p/n: 905190007 (axle spring pin), they're about $3 a piece. I also used an 02 donor.

[FFRSpec72]

I'm not sure of the diameter but it's subaru p/n: 905190007 (axle spring pin), they're about $3 a piece. I also used an 02 donor.

I was able to just unhook the upper lateral link and tilt the spindle and get this fixed. I had the pins in my donor box but had no idea what they were for, now I know as that saved me some potential damage !

[FFRSpec72]

I added my trailer tie downs for front and rear

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[FFRSpec72]

I'm almost finished my intercooler forced air, this is running from the side vent inner scoops picking up the surface air on the side of the car as I have increased the front fender gap to help surface air flow. The intercooler is not centered, so made clearance an issue. Now I just have to figure out how to connect 4" brake duct hose to 3" brake duct hose as the internal scoops are 4" and the intercooler ducts are 3" (as you see in picture).
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[FFRSpec72]

I also finished running the wideband O2 sensor to the data logger so I can keep an eye on the AFR, I have ordered a gauge also so I can have a visual look-see w/o having to wait to look at the logs.

[idf]

I'm almost finished my intercooler forced air, this is running from the side vent inner scoops picking up the surface air on the side of the car as I have increased the front fender gap to help surface air flow. The intercooler is not centered, so made clearance an issue. Now I just have to figure out how to connect 4" brake duct hose to 3" brake duct hose as the internal scoops are 4" and the intercooler ducts are 3" (as you see in picture).
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What did you use internally to collect air from the side scoops to your ducts?

[FFRSpec72]

What did you use internally to collect air from the side scoops to your ducts?

Some prototype scoops from FFR that mount on the inside of side vent on the side sail, so they force the air up to a 4" outlet at the top of the side vent. There are some picture some where in my posts here

[Canadian818]

I'm almost finished my intercooler forced air, this is running from the side vent inner scoops picking up the surface air on the side of the car as I have increased the front fender gap to help surface air flow. The intercooler is not centered, so made clearance an issue. Now I just have to figure out how to connect 4" brake duct hose to 3" brake duct hose as the internal scoops are 4" and the intercooler ducts are 3" (as you see in picture).
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Looking good Tony! Very interested in how effectively your ducting works. While I won't be using a top mount, I'm torn between jamming an intercooler in front of a rear wheel or ducting to a rear mount.

[FFRSpec72]

Looking good Tony! Very interested in how effectively your ducting works. While I won't be using a top mount, I'm torn between jamming an intercooler in front of a rear wheel or ducting to a rear mount.

The only concern I have is idle time, I should not have much of that. I may also add a fan, but I will be able to tell if I'm getting heat soaked pretty quickly

[Hindsight]

Hey Tony, quick question for you: I am running an HPDE day in a couple weeks and the rule sheet said no antifreeze - straight water only. Is that typical for SCCA/NASA events? It isn't something I have ever had to do for HPDE. I understand the reasoning behind it but am not keen on running straight water on an engine I would like to get a reasonable amount of mileage out of.

I figured you might know. Thanks.

[FFRSpec72]

Hey Tony, quick question for you: I am running an HPDE day in a couple weeks and the rule sheet said no antifreeze - straight water only. Is that typical for SCCA/NASA events? It isn't something I have ever had to do for HPDE. I understand the reasoning behind it but am not keen on running straight water on an engine I would like to get a reasonable amount of mileage out of.

I figured you might know. Thanks.

Yes standard track regulation not a SCCA/NASA/xxx regulation (so this may vary per track) but lets face it 99% of the HPDE cars are daily drivers and they all run antifreeze, on my race cars I run a anticorrosion additive and that all.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Tony. What anti-corrosion additive do you like?

[FFRSpec72]

Thanks Tony. What anti-corrosion additive do you like?

Here is the one I use and it actually works not rust and I leave it in for 2 years and then change http://www.no-rosion.com/hyperkuhlcoolant.htm

[Hindsight]

Nice thank you.

[Mitch Wright]

You can also use Redline Water Wetter, it can be found at many chain auto parts stores. Most tracks and HPDE groups either mandate or highly recommend flush the system and use water. The reason is antifreeze is like oil on the track. Now with all that said most car groups don't check or just don't enforce the rule. As stated the reason is most that are new to track days drive the cars to the track.

[Sgt.Gator]

Or run Water Wetter or Purple Ice. They have anti-corrosion in them too. But they won't work as anti-freeze, you have to add anti freeze in the winter. Both are available at any auto parts store.

[FFRSpec72]

BAD NEWS, I have a oil leak, looks like the oil cooler line. I need to find a new one ASAP as I have test & tune on Friday

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[Hindsight]

Doh, hope you can get it sorted quickly.

[FFRSpec72]

Found a 3" to 4" adapter so finished up my vents and intake to the intercooler

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[Frank818]

Is the line learking or the fitting? If it's either or you just need to change the line and you're done, no need for a new cooler altogether.

[FFRSpec72]

Is the line learking or the fitting? If it's either or you just need to change the line and you're done, no need for a new cooler altogether.

Agree, just have to find someone that can make or get me a line by this Thursday..

[Hindsight]

Found a 3" to 4" adapter so finished up my vents and intake to the intercooler

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Cool side scoop manifold. Did you fabricate that yourself out of fiberglass?

[FFRSpec72]

Cool side scoop manifold. Did you fabricate that yourself out of fiberglass?

It's fiberglass, these are some factory five prototypes that I'm giving feedback on.

[Hindsight]

Very cool! I'm sure you didn't think they would go un-noticed when you posted that pic up haha.

[Sgt.Gator]

Agree, just have to find someone that can make or get me a line by this Thursday..

Tony I'll be at PIR Friday morning. I can bring my AN tools, lines, fittings and we can make you one in about 15 minutes . Or send me the exact length and I can make one for you today and ship it overnight.
Is that -10AN line? Send me pics of both ends and the overall length including fittings.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony I'll be at PIR Friday morning. I can bring my AN tools, lines, fittings and we can make you one in about 15 minutes . Or send me the exact length and I can make one for you today and ship it overnight.
Is that -10AN line? Send me pics of both ends and the overall length including fittings.

I found someone to make a line for me, so should pick it up today. If you could bring some AN10 line and female ends just in case that would be awesome. Looks like I will arrive Friday AM at the track (I will leave Seattle early Friday Morning). If I can make it through the day on Friday I will run either the NOVICE race (low key) or Group 4 ITE, depends on the car and how safe I feel driving it.

I will be running about 230 rwhp (detuned) to bring me into the 10:1, on a very conservative tune the car was putting out 290 rwhp so that would have put me in below the 8:1

[Mechie3]

It's fiberglass, these are some factory five prototypes that I'm giving feedback on.

Nice! It's what I've always said the solution should have been (seal scoops, sealed TMIC) but didn't have the fab skills to do myself. One of the Subaru rally cars I saw had a radiator in the back and they used these massive 6"+ hoses. Not sure how the thermal load of an IC compares to that of a radiator offhand. Let us know how they work!

[RetroRacing]

We have a ton of fittings as well, between us all, we should have you covered. We will be there Thursday night getting set up.

[Frank818]

Looks like your leak is fixed, Tony. :)

[Sgt.Gator]

I'll bring a GoPro with a suction mount and some yarn for aero testing on your scoops. Here's what I learned on my STI a couple of months ago:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5414019&postcount=56
and
http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5414024&postcount=57

[FFRSpec72]

I'll bring a GoPro with a suction mount and some yarn for aero testing on your scoops. Here's what I learned on my STI a couple of months ago:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5414019&postcount=56
and
http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5414024&postcount=57

I can't view these (requires account), make sure you bring some tape unless you want to hold on to the yarn as I drive ?

[Sgt.Gator]

I can't view these (requires account), make sure you bring some tape unless you want to hold on to the yarn as I drive ?

LOL!
I'll repost them here.
<<<>>>
The aero test day at ORP went great. Except that I couldn't find my manometer Friday. It should have been in my Data tool box, the accessory hoses and the instructions were there, but no instrument. That drives me nuts!

So I used the old school yarn, tape, and camera. There were some amazing discoveries.

First I setup the camera to try to capture what was going on with the brake ducts. That didn't work too well, but on reviewing the video I noticed the yarn that should have been flowing into the lower radiator opening was not most of the time. It was flowing sideways left, sideways right and a every once in awhile backwards! It only flowed straight in at speeds over 80 mph!

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=231194&stc=1&d=1464542996http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=231195&stc=1&d=1464542996http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=231196&stc=1&d=1464542996

Whoa! This needs more investigation! So I moved the camera over to capture the entire front:
http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=231198&stc=1&d=1464543309

OK, clearly the lower radiator has air flow has issues. A great deal of the time the center tufts, directly in front of the center radiator brace, are flowing backwards. And the tufts on the side are not always flowing in too.

Suspecting this reverse flow is at least partly caused by the TMIC Scoop over-pressurizing the engine bay we taped up the TMIC scoop and I went out for 1 lap doing my best to stay out of boost, but still hit 80 mph a couple of times. Check out the flow with the TMIC scoop taped shut:

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=231199&stc=1&d=1464543686

A 100% improvement!

I'm not showing the pics of the upper grille flow because it worked fine the whole time. It's only the lower grille that has this problem.

So it looks like an FMIC or AWIC is in my future if I want to get rid of the TMIC scoop not just for aero drag but cooling too.

[Sgt.Gator]

I also did the testing on the rear window, trunk lid, and wing. More surprises!

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=231200&stc=1&d=1464544184

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=231201&stc=1&d=1464544184

The airflow wraps around the rear window pillars and is angling across the rear window from the sides (expected behavior).

But they seem to be colliding in the middle and forcing the boundary layer to flow backwards, right up the center of the window! I never would have thought that could happen! Unreal. Another holy cow, I never would have thought moment!

I guess those EVO Vortex Generators actually have a purpose! Subaru offers them now as an SPT part for 2008-2014 STI and WRX. E751SFG300

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-RODxDrEPj7bSfBqFLwO_xsQYhFiQMtEmfATCqCUhzaUUGqlB

[FFRSpec72]

Would be good to test the side IC vents, radiator intake/exit, rear spoiler and rear deck area and vents. I should look like the yarn monster out there if it makes it that far

[RetroRacing]

Bring extra yarn.:cool:

Make sure it's fire retardant, it's going to be a scorcher.

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm working on a Cool Shirt backpack complete with cooler, pump, and 12v battery!

[Mitch Wright]

Tony, good luck with your shakedown. More important is have fun, looking forward to your report.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, good luck with your shakedown. More important is have fun, looking forward to your report.

It will be fun to compare the 2 cars and see what works and what did not. I'm not used to the turbo boost kick, as I was doping some pulls in 3rd (for some tuning readings) I get this initial pull and then around 4k I get this blast of power, kind of scary power on the street. I just hope that everything holds together or we can fix what goes wrong and we can have some fun track time

[FFRSpec72]

Bad/sad day at the track, I meet Jeff (retroracing) at the track, and we went out for 1st session, my car would not go over 80moh (4-5k), engine would start to run rich (blowing black smoke out the exhaust, like LOTS) and start to stumble, so could get it up to about 80mph when I ease the throttle.

So with limited speed, and 100+ degrees out, my engine temps were right at 180, and oil temps were under 200, no leaks, no other issues but again I was not going over 80mph. So I did get to practice going as fast as I could into turns, the car handled well, lost of grip and breaking power.

Jeff had some electrical issue, so my car became a donor as he had to borrow my alternator assemble, he seems to be back up and running now and will do a small endure, I left track last night since nothing I could do. So will have to see how Jeff makes out today.

Also a big thanks to Sgt.Gator for coming out and helping.

I did get my log book and they did have some issues with the roll cage, mainly being the 2x2 rear hoop and how the supports were welded to it and the ends being open, they still passed but they were not happy and asked that I address these issues.

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the report - sorry you weren't able to use the car to its fullest. Such is racing a newly built car though. Have you had a tune on it yet? Do you think it was a tune issue or maybe a bad ground or something? Sounds more like a tune issue.

Can you tell me more about the roll cage issue. What do you mean by "2x2 hoop"? And what was the issue with how the supports are welded to it? The only thing I thought was open was the square tubing on the upper part of the frame that the roll bar welds to..... the square tube frame is open at the ends, but I thought all the round rollbar components were fully welded shut. I'm asking because tonight, I will be cutting my "S" rollbar off and will be fabricating a new one that looks like an "R" tomorrow, in prep for my coming HPDE weekend. Any input would be appreciated. I'm thinking about trying to do what FFR did on the S with the rear support bars so I don't have to cut the engine cover like you do on the R but I'm on the fence as to whether doing it that way will provide enough support.

[C.Plavan]

NASA had the same issue with my rollcage, that I documented my first time out. Supposedly NASA called FFR and never got anywhere.

As for your engine issues. Do you have the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) disabled with the Cobb? Is the VSS even hooked up? That sounds like the issue to me, and it puts the motor into safe mode.

[FFRSpec72]

NASA had the same issue with my rollcage, that I documented my first time out. Supposedly NASA called FFR and never got anywhere.

As for your engine issues. Do you have the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) disabled with the Cobb? Is the VSS even hooked up? That sounds like the issue to me, and it puts the motor into safe mode.

VSS is hooked up as speedo is working, seems like the positive battery terminal was loose, one of those flat end terminals that has a screw into battery post, the screw was half way out, so did a few pulls this morning and all seems ok, having folks look over the logs as I had my wide band also running.

They gave me a roll cage stamp but cautioned me on this issue. There is also a diagonal 1x1 that come up to the 2x2 on the side, well that is welded like a half inch down from the top of the 2x2 and they did not like that either. I assume that they also passed retroracing (Jeff) cage as they were going to look at that this morning

[FFRSpec72]

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Thanks for the report - sorry you weren't able to use the car to its fullest. Such is racing a newly built car though. Have you had a tune on it yet? Do you think it was a tune issue or maybe a bad ground or something? Sounds more like a tune issue.

Can you tell me more about the roll cage issue. What do you mean by "2x2 hoop"? And what was the issue with how the supports are welded to it? The only thing I thought was open was the square tubing on the upper part of the frame that the roll bar welds to..... the square tube frame is open at the ends, but I thought all the round rollbar components were fully welded shut. I'm asking because tonight, I will be cutting my "S" rollbar off and will be fabricating a new one that looks like an "R" tomorrow, in prep for my coming HPDE weekend. Any input would be appreciated. I'm thinking about trying to do what FFR did on the S with the rear support bars so I don't have to cut the engine cover like you do on the R but I'm on the fence as to whether doing it that way will provide enough support.

Here is what I was told during the cage inspection last night, my cage still passed but they were not all that happy, they let it go because cars in NASA had already had cages approved

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[Hindsight]

Thanks for the detail. That does make sense.

[FFRSpec72]

Thanks for the detail. That does make sense.

I'm sure they will hound me until I do something about it, so will most likely just weld in a inch or so of solid tubing in each end.

[Zach34]

Thanks for posting the picture of the frame issues. I was confused about the diagonal you were talking about until I saw that.

So, as I understand you, they were fine with the square tube, they just didn't like that it was open on the ends? I remember seeing Chad's post about the issue literally the day before I sent my frame out for powdercoat. I ran out and welded in two squares of 3/16" plate to close up the ends of the tube. Chad, did they highlight the issue with the diagonal piece, too? That could be fixed with a gusset pretty easily. I hate grinding off powder, though.

I think within the next year there will be enough feedback info floating around for a Mk II version of the 818 frame from FFR, but these two things could be fixed without modifying their jig.

[C.Plavan]

57693

Here is what I was told during the cage inspection last night, my cage still passed but they were not all that happy, they let it go because cars in NASA had already had cages approved

57693

Yep- Exactly the same thing NASA had the issue with. C'mon Factory Five. Fix it for safety sake.

[C.Plavan]

Thanks for posting the picture of the frame issues. I was confused about the diagonal you were talking about until I saw that.

So, as I understand you, they were fine with the square tube, they just didn't like that it was open on the ends? I remember seeing Chad's post about the issue literally the day before I sent my frame out for powdercoat. I ran out and welded in two squares of 3/16" plate to close up the ends of the tube. Chad, did they highlight the issue with the diagonal piece, too? That could be fixed with a gusset pretty easily. I hate grinding off powder, though.

I think within the next year there will be enough feedback info floating around for a Mk II version of the 818 frame from FFR, but these two things could be fixed without modifying their jig.

Like Tony said, the 2" bar will collapse in a roll over. Before welding the ends, I would find a round bar and insert it into the 2"x2" that fits snuggly and weld it in. Then weld covers over the ends of the bar. That will give you more protection from the 2"x2" crushing down. The rollcage is short enough, you cant afford any crushing distance.

They would of fixed their jig already if they wanted to. They don't care since they have been contacted before. Just plan on making your car safe yourself.

[Sgt.Gator]

It was great crewing with Tony and Retro even though both cars had issues. The negatives were that neither car ever completed an entire practice or qualifying session. And it was 103 degrees and sunny as heck which meant every time we tried to work on the cars they were red hot.

And why did FF put that cross bar exactly where it interferes with the Turbo IWG actuator arm? We had to notch out Tony's at the track to make sure that wouldn't cause problems. That was a fun job for Tony in 100+ weather using a die grinder over a red hot turbo!

I did get to do the test fit in Tony's car. I can say absolutely I would never pass the broomstick test with the FF oem R rear roll hoop and front roll hoop. If I want to build and race one of these I would certainly want a 2" taller rear hoop, and the front hoop would have to come up out of the dash and go across about 4-6" inches above the dash/cowl top. I imagine using a shorty lexan windscreen to fill the gap. Or go full Miata MX-5 Cup car style halo/windshield as I've posted before.

Here's the SCCA rule for open top cars.57714

[Zach34]

Gator, I hear you. Let's see, here's what I've done so far to the frame:

-Completely cut out and restructured the entire floor to lower the seats (so my head clears the rollbar) and slightly raise the floor (even with the top of the perimeter 1.5" tubes now) for a more comfortable seating position

-Completely restructured the footbox area to push the Wilwood pedal box forward about 4 inches (I'm 6'3") and center the pedals on the steering column (FFR's position felt skewed to the right).

-Re-positioned the steering column mounts to center the column on the driver seat and make it not crooked (yes, in order to not require more adapting parts, FFR made the column very slightly crooked and off center - not any worse than the Roadster, though).

-Cut and welded in new structure under the 6-speed trans so that no awkward spacers are required to make it fit.

-Welded in tabs on either side of the transmission for bolting in a future wing support structure

Things I know I will do:

-Probably make an entirely new crossmember for the engine compartment. I'm going with a rotated turbo, the provided crossmember doesn't quite line up with the frame holes very well, and I want to incorporate the crossmember into the wing support structure.

-Fabricate a wing support structure (maybe coincident with the crossmember).

Things I might do:

-Add a gusset to the problem area pointed out above

-Add some rear impact protection (I'm contemplating a Porsche-like intercooler location behind the rear wheels)

That's an awful long list. Some of it was for comfort, but some is just necessary.

[Hindsight]

I can say absolutely I would never pass the broomstick test with the FF oem R rear roll hoop and front roll hoop. If I want to build and race one of these I would certainly want a 2" taller rear hoop, and the front hoop would have to come up out of the dash and go across about 4-6" inches above the dash/cowl top. I imagine using a shorty lexan windscreen to fill the gap. Or go full Miata MX-5 Cup car style halo/windshiled as I've posted before.

The "S" rollbar on mine was 13.25" above the square 2" frame bar. In order to pass the broom stick test using the top of the windshield as one point for the broom stick, my roll bar needs to be 19" high. That is almost 6" higher than the FFR "S" roll bar! And that is with my very thin racing bucket seats bolted so the bottom of them is pressing against the cross brace frame, as long as it can possibly go. I feel both the S and the R need taller rollbars. If I end up racing the 818 a lot, I will likely do the same thing you mentioned, which is to add a full halo cage with windshield bars and the whole works.

[FFRSpec72]

The "S" rollbar on mine was 13.25" above the square 2" frame bar. In order to pass the broom stick test using the top of the windshield as one point for the broom stick, my roll bar needs to be 19" high. That is almost 6" higher than the FFR "S" roll bar! And that is with my very thin racing bucket seats bolted so the bottom of them is pressing against the cross brace frame, as long as it can possibly go. I feel both the S and the R need taller rollbars. If I end up racing the 818 a lot, I will likely do the same thing you mentioned, which is to add a full halo cage with windshield bars and the whole works.

This winter I will most likely add a halo cage like on the challenge car, if the car is still running and I have money.

[FFRSpec72]

It was great crewing with Tony and Retro even though both cars had issues. The negatives were that neither car ever completed an entire practice or qualifying session. And it was 103 degrees and sunny as heck which meant every time we tried to work on the cars they were red hot.

And why did FF put that cross bar exactly where it interferes with the Turbo IWG actuator arm? We had to notch out Tony's at the track to make sure that wouldn't cause problems. That was a fun job for Tony in 100+ weather using a die grinder over a red hot turbo!

I did get to do the test fit in Tony's car. I can say absolutely I would never pass the broomstick test with the FF oem R rear roll hoop and front roll hoop. If I want to build and race one of these I would certainly want a 2" taller rear hoop, and the front hoop would have to come up out of the dash and go across about 4-6" inches above the dash/cowl top. I imagine using a shorty lexan windscreen to fill the gap. Or go full Miata MX-5 Cup car style halo/windshield as I've posted before.

Here's the SCCA rule for open top cars.


Gator, many thanks for coming out and helping this weekend as it was very much appreciated, sorry things did not go well as we would I have liked, but we did learn some lessons, but over all, my temps were good (but was not running it hard), car corners well, no issue with alignment (so far), no leaks, nothing fell off car (that I could tell)

[FFRSpec72]

So reviwing my logs from the track time, granted that I was not above 5K RPM and speed was not above 80mph, the IAT started at 140 on grid and went down to about 125 on track, the water tems started at 192 on grid (i have no fans) and was down to 180 on track (I have a 180 degree thermostat), the oil temps were at 120 at grid and did not go above 180 on track,

[STiPWRD]

It sounds like those FFR side scoops worked out well, any idea if they're going to be releasing them?

[C.Plavan]

It sounds like those FFR side scoops worked out well, any idea if they're going to be releasing them?

Remember it was only to 5K rpm. That is just cruising in a race car. I would hold out until he really winds it up.

Tony will you be installing a Dry Sump soon?

[RetroRacing]

Thanks again Tony for letting us borrow your alternator, we WILL return the favour some day!
We had to both remove the sliders and lower the seat by an inch to the floor, just to barely pass the broom stick test! Now, we are cutting and welding yet again to insure we have no further issues, but why did they not test this prior to building a RACECAR cage?

anyway, we installed caps in our frame ends, we at least that was ok. now we are concerned about shoulder belt angle with the seat so low.

please make it stop.

[Mitch Wright]

Retro, it a race car it never stops, that's part of the fun.

[C.Plavan]

Thanks again Tony for letting us borrow your alternator, we WILL return the favour some day!
We had to both remove the sliders and lower the seat by an inch to the floor, just to barely pass the broom stick test! Now, we are cutting and welding yet again to insure we have no further issues, but why did they not test this prior to building a RACECAR cage?

anyway, we installed caps in our frame ends, we at least that was ok. now we are concerned about shoulder belt angle with the seat so low.

please make it stop.

Since I had a Racetech seat, they sold a shorter seat pad. It lowered me over 1"- I would just remove your seat pad in the OMP and run minimal padding.

[RetroRacing]

We did.....the bottom of the seat is touching the steel bars on the floor, and I only have 3/4" clear of the broomstick. Going to modify the floor to dump the seat down to the aluminum undertray just in case we have a taller driver.

[FFRSpec72]

Remember it was only to 5K rpm. That is just cruising in a race car. I would hold out until he really winds it up.

Tony will you be installing a Dry Sump soon?

I have ordered a dry sump package from element tuning not sure when I will install, I really really hated to do this.

[FFRSpec72]

Thanks again Tony for letting us borrow your alternator, we WILL return the favour some day!
We had to both remove the sliders and lower the seat by an inch to the floor, just to barely pass the broom stick test! Now, we are cutting and welding yet again to insure we have no further issues, but why did they not test this prior to building a RACECAR cage?

anyway, we installed caps in our frame ends, we at least that was ok. now we are concerned about shoulder belt angle with the seat so low.

please make it stop.

Glad to help out, thanks for meeting me on your way home. I hope to be out at the ridge for test & tune in Sept and the enduro in Oct if all goes well

[Sgt.Gator]

Thanks again Tony for letting us borrow your alternator, we WILL return the favour some day!
We had to both remove the sliders and lower the seat by an inch to the floor, just to barely pass the broom stick test! Now, we are cutting and welding yet again to insure we have no further issues, but why did they not test this prior to building a RACECAR cage?

anyway, we installed caps in our frame ends, we at least that was ok. now we are concerned about shoulder belt angle with the seat so low.

please make it stop.

It is strange since FFR designed the Challenge series car with a much higher roll bar.

SCCA has specific cage rules for open top cars. NASA doesn't seem to have the same rules, or any special rules, for open top and formula cars. In fact their front hoop requirement only says to match the front windshield A pillar angle and top. There seems to be no rule if you don't have a front windshield or any A pillars.

NASA doesn't even have the 2" rule between the top of the rear hoop and the top of the helmet on an open car (SCCA Rule). In fact I can't find a NASA rule that says the top of your helmet has to be below the top of the rear hoop at all. The only requirement is that the cage be padded where your helmet could touch it. I suppose technically your head could be ABOVE the roll bar in an open car! It appears that since the rule is written for closed cars that wasn't taken into consideration because your helmet can't be thru the roof.. Although you'd be crazy not to have at least 2" of roll bar above your helmet. . I'm sure if you roll an 818 it's not hard to imagine that with no roof the roll bar could easily dig a couple of inches into the ground taking your head/neck/spine with it.

Maybe somebody here who is a NASA tech inspector can clarify the rule. I checked the NASA driver forum and there were some posts about the same thing with no real answer from anyone with authority.

I did note that NASA Thunder Roadsters have full halo cages:
57890....57891..57892

Personally I'll build to exceed SCCA rules. They have a lot of experience with open top - formula cars and the bad things that can happen.

[FFRSpec72]

It is strange since FFR designed the Challenge series car with a much higher roll bar.

SCCA has specific cage rules for open top cars. NASA doesn't seem to have the same rules, or any special rules, for open top and formula cars. In fact their front hoop requirement only says to match the front windshield A pillar angle and top. There seems to be no rule if you don't have a front windshield or any A pillars.

NASA doesn't even have the 2" rule between the top of the rear hoop and the top of the helmet on an open car (SCCA Rule). In fact I can't find a NASA rule that says the top of your helmet has to be below the top of the rear hoop at all. The only requirement is that the cage be padded where your helmet could touch it. I suppose technically your head could be ABOVE the roll bar in an open car! It appears that since the rule is written for closed cars that wasn't taken into consideration because your helmet can't be thru the roof.. Although you'd be crazy not to have at least 2" of roll bar above your helmet. . I'm sure if you roll an 818 it's not hard to imagine that with no roof the roll bar could easily dig a couple of inches into the ground taking your head/neck/spine with it.

Maybe somebody here who is a NASA tech inspector can clarify the rule. I checked the NASA driver forum and there were some posts about the same thing with no real answer from anyone with authority.

I did note that NASA Thunder Roadsters have full halo cages:
57890....57891..57892

Personally I'll build to exceed SCCA rules. They have a lot of experience with open top - formula cars and the bad things that can happen.

The challenge car cage is about 1" higher than the 818R cage, somewhere in my build I compare the 2 cages. When I was getting my cage stamp ICSCC did comment on the fact that this cage was built to exceed SCCA rules the way the front and rear hoops were built. The only complaint was the ends and the one diagonal bar. I have just shy of 2" under the top of the roll cage, I can make 2" if I squish myself, I'm 6' tall

[FFRSpec72]

Remember it was only to 5K rpm. That is just cruising in a race car. I would hold out until he really winds it up.

Tony will you be installing a Dry Sump soon?

My challenge car is screaming at 5K and at 6K it is ready to blow

[C.Plavan]

My challenge car is screaming at 5K and at 6K it is ready to blow

You should hear 8k in a Porsche :)

[FFRSpec72]

Off to test & tune tomorrow at The Ridge Raceway, hopefully have most of my previous issues resolved.

[Hindsight]

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you Tony. Get some video!

[Rotorcraft]

Have fun!

[Sgt.Gator]

That's great news. Have fun!

[Mitch Wright]

Have fun, looking forward to your report

[longislandwrx]

good luck today

[FFRSpec72]

Care ran flawlessly through 5 sessions, on the 6th and last session the car crapped out, seems the alternator was not charging the battery, and died, had to be towed in. The was up to 125mph, water temps were at or below 180, oil temps were 190, IAT was 95, constant oil pressure, not flux in any of the turns. I had a small water leak, one of the hose clamps was not tight. Ran 22 lbs in front and 21 lbs in rear (R7 Tires). I did not push it past 7.5K since I did not have a dry sump yet. There is some rubbing of the front tires on one of the turns down hill.

The car needs a bump steer kit as it was twitchy on the straight away going 125, need to do this before I go out again.

[Hindsight]

Congrats Tony! That is awesome. Very glad you got basically a full day out of it without any issues.

Remind me what you are doing for oil cooling again? And do you have ducting in place for the radiator?

I had the exact same issue at high-speeds (about 115-120 for me was where I would lift). I'm hoping a front splitter will help that.

[FFRSpec72]

Congrats Tony! That is awesome. Very glad you got basically a full day out of it without any issues.

Remind me what you are doing for oil cooling again? And do you have ducting in place for the radiator?

I had the exact same issue at high-speeds (about 115-120 for me was where I would lift). I'm hoping a front splitter will help that.

No fans, but front tunnel for radiator and I have a Saeetrab cooler with fan. I had no lift as I'm running full aero

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Care ran flawlessly through 5 sessions, on the 6th and last session the car crapped out, seems the alternator was not charging the battery, and died, had to be towed in. The was up to 125mph, water temps were at or below 180, oil temps were 190, IAT was 95, constant oil pressure, not flux in any of the turns. I had a small water leak, one of the hose clamps was not tight. Ran 22 lbs in front and 21 lbs in rear (R7 Tires). I did not push it past 7.5K since I did not have a dry sump yet. There is some rubbing of the front tires on one of the turns down hill.

The car needs a bump steer kit as it was twitchy on the straight away going 125, need to do this before I go out again.

Hi Tony
Nice to hear that you had a good day without any major issues.
We've had a lot of the same issues.
"small water leak" we changed to all spring clamps.
"some rubbing" We raised ride height to 4.5"
"twitchy" We added Baer bump steer kit.
"dry sump" adding this week

On your alternator, do you have the wire installed the coms from the dash cluster?
Bob

[FFRSpec72]

On your alternator, do you have the wire installed the coms from the dash cluster?
Bob

not sure as iWire did the harness

[Mitch Wright]

Congrats Tony.
Once you bump steer the car front and rear it will make a world of difference.

[Sgt.Gator]

That's great Tony!

[Hindsight]

Where did you mount the oil cooler? I have the same setup (setrab with fan) but was getting 240-250 oil temps.

[FFRSpec72]

Where did you mount the oil cooler? I have the same setup (setrab with fan) but was getting 240-250 oil temps.

Right behind the side scoop, was going to feed the oil cooler with air from the vent but used vent air for IC, but seems the oil cools fine as there is lots of air space around the cooler

[FFRSpec72]

Some take-aways

1. Bump steer kit
2. more camber
3. Shifter if for shi*
4. used mainly 3, 4, and 5th, and 4th is rally hard to find for some reason
5. need side mirrors, only had center mirror
6. need AFR gauge , maybe boost
7. raise ride height or make for more tire clearance
8. running 5 degrees on wing, may need more but need to fix bump steer to get more speed
9. exhaust seems OK as I was around 95 db

[RetroRacing]

WHOOOOHOOOO!!!! THat's great Tony, sorry we couldn't make it. We mad our own bump steer kit, but go with what you know will bolt right on. Wish you could use our shifter, it is way cool but takes allot of work to make and runs about $1k just in parts and cables (it is waaaayyy cool though). We decided to go stiffer in the front rather than raise front height, in fact, we are looking at going 15" wheels in front to lower the car to where it needs to be without giving up mechanical grip of a narrower tire. If you were pushing it in the corners, and not experiencing any oversteer, I would leave your wing where it is. 5 degrees for us bent the rear frame down and pushed the rear of the car down so much that we are basically popping a wheeley down the straight!

Soooo happy for you!

[Hindsight]

5 degrees for us bent the rear frame down and pushed the rear of the car down so much that we are basically popping a wheeley down the straight!

That's terrifying!!!

[FFRSpec72]

Here are 2 test and tune laps at The Ridge in Shelton WA


https://vimeo.com/183475063

[Frank818]

That's pretty cool, image-wise. The only thing is we just hear the wind noise, I wanna hear the engine. :(
And plz, stop getting overtaken by BMWs. :)

[Hindsight]

Tony, the vids arent showing up for me. Odd that Frank seems to be able to see them but I can't.

[FFRSpec72]

That's pretty cool, image-wise. The only thing is we just hear the wind noise, I wanna hear the engine. :(
And plz, stop getting overtaken by BMWs. :)

Was only a test and tune and wanted to make sure nothing fell off or broke, I won't push it until I get the dry sump installed in a few weeks and get the bump steer fixed.

[RetroRacing]

We are installing a remote mic over to the muffler, just got it in the mail! :cool:

[Mechie3]

Are you running the stock plastic shifter?

[Mitch Wright]

Great news Tony, would love to see your data logs.
What shifter are you using?? Never mind, I see looking back in your build thread your using Wayne's Shifter set up, wonder if it needs a little tweaking. I haven't driven one but played with one in a display car, sitting still it felt pretty good.
The bump steer recommendation from FFR will get you close on the front, only took a few shim changes on each side to get it done. The rear is easy to adjust the bump steer and found with my first baseline set up I was in left field before I put the bumpsteer gauge on the car.
The last time Bob and Michael were here I did a few laps in their car, it was spooky. Getting the bumpsteer done was the first suggestion I made to them. I know that Bob has posted it is a new car since they have got the bumpsteer corrected and made some other alignment changes.

[Sgt.Gator]

Tony, how did you resolve the issues you were having at PIR that made it work fine at the The Ridge?

[Hindsight]

The bump steer recommendation from FFR will get you close on the front, only took a few shim changes on each side to get it done. The rear is easy to adjust the bump steer and found with my first baseline set up I was in left field before I put the bumpsteer gauge on the car.
The last time Bob and Michael were here I did a few laps in their car, it was spooky. Getting the bumpsteer done was the first suggestion I made to them. I know that Bob has posted it is a new car since they have got the bumpsteer corrected and made some other alignment changes.

That is very encouraging to hear. I hope that I can use the Baer kit with the tapered bolt that comes with it, since I am at "S" ride height, instead of having to drill out the spindle and using a bolt like they do on the R.

[tmoretta]

What is the Baer kit?

[Mitch Wright]

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/bae-3851001/overview/make/subaru
Baer is one of the bumpsteer kits available.

[RetroRacing]

We drilled the arm out to 5/8 and used a pinto kit with a few shims (washers) to get it perfect. Had to make the alum adapter though, so probably more expensive and labor intensive our way, but also probably stronger by a large magnitude.
59052

[FFRSpec72]

Does anyone know the max spacer length on the Baer bump steer kit as it is 1-3/4 on the SPL bump steer kit ( http://www.splparts.com/products/spl-bumpsteer-adjustable-front-tie-rod-ends-fr-s-brz-wrx.html ) and when I measured the bump steer I would need a tad over 2"

[RetroRacing]

THat's the other reason we went with our pinto set up, it's 2" alone, with three washers it's perfect

[FFRSpec72]

We drilled the arm out to 5/8 and used a pinto kit with a few shims (washers) to get it perfect. Had to make the alum adapter though, so probably more expensive and labor intensive our way, but also probably stronger by a large magnitude.
59052

Are you at the S or R ride height holes for frontend ?

[Hindsight]

Does anyone know the max spacer length on the Baer bump steer kit as it is 1-3/4 on the SPL bump steer kit ( http://www.splparts.com/products/spl-bumpsteer-adjustable-front-tie-rod-ends-fr-s-brz-wrx.html ) and when I measured the bump steer I would need a tad over 2"

I just measured the Baer kit I have and it includes 7/8" of spacers. I'm assuming that is all that will fit, while still having the nut engage.

Retro: I know you drilled your spindles out, but do you know if the pinto kit taper bolt will fit in the taper of the Subaru spindles, by chance? Is the aluminum adapter you used the threaded tube connecting the rod end to the tie rod? If you didn't use the taper bolt or the tube nut, it would seem all you used from the kit was the rod-end and spacers no? Might just be cheaper to build your own kit?

[Mitch Wright]

I also have the Pinto spacer, it drilled to 5/8ID for a 5/8 bolt. The Pinto spacer is 2" going from memory I ended up at 2 7/16 + or - a few thousands at R ride height.
I am headed to the shop after work and will measure up what I actually have for spacers. Remember what I or others have will get you close but you will need to spend sometime dialing the bumpsteer in on your car's set up.

[Hindsight]

I was looking at my Baer kit some more tonight and it doesn't look like the swedged tubes are going to be long enough to engage the tie rods enough. Anyone had that issue? I already have limited thread engagement with the OE tie rod ends and the baer kit tie rod ends are 1" shorter per side, from center of rod end to the end of the swedged tube.

[RetroRacing]

I can measure up a few adapters so that you can just buy the pinto spacer, two 5/8" rh rod ends and two bolts to put the thing together. It just screws right on to the stock steering rack, drill out the arm to 5/8" and bolt everything up. it's just solid alum bar, take it to a machine shop and have the two ends tapped (one for the heim joint, one for the steering rack) and your good to go.

[FFRSpec72]

I can measure up a few adapters so that you can just buy the pinto spacer, two 5/8" rh rod ends and two bolts to put the thing together. It just screws right on to the stock steering rack, drill out the arm to 5/8" and bolt everything up. it's just solid alum bar, take it to a machine shop and have the two ends tapped (one for the heim joint, one for the steering rack) and your good to go.

Would love for someone to make some longer tapered bolts as I really don't want to take off my spindles to have them drilled, already have to pull engine to install dry sump, what a pain this car is becoming or has become.

[Hindsight]

An 818 bump steer kit is a good idea. Maybe I will see what I could put one together for.

[FFRSpec72]

An 818 bump steer kit is a good idea. Maybe I will see what I could put one together for.

Maybe we can get Mechie3 to machine some tapered grade 8 bolts that will allow at least 2.5" of spacers

[Mitch Wright]

Tony,
Pulling off the front hubs is a pretty quick easy job and once you drilled the steering arm your done, couple of 5/8 bolts and spacer and your done. I have the spacer's I made from some 4130 tubing you can have if you want them. I bought the Pinto spacer from Speedway, you will need some 5/8 ID shims to get dialed in.
I do understand where you are coming from but you are so close.

[Mechie3]

Maybe we can get Mechie3 to machine some tapered grade 8 bolts that will allow at least 2.5" of spacers

Give me some dimensions of what you need and I'll see what I can do (machine capability and time allowing).

[DSR-3]

Has anyone tried/looked at these?
59071
Speedway Motors (http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Adjustable-Tie-Rod-Adapter-Stud-to-Heim,3333.html)

[Hindsight]

They have those in Pinto and GM tapers..... anyone know if either of those are the same as Subaru?

[FFRSpec72]

They have those in Pinto and GM tapers..... anyone know if either of those are the same as Subaru?

Looks like most of the after market ones are 7 or 10 degree taper, so need to find out the taper angle of the Subaru, I don't have one to measure unless I take the end off my 818

[Hindsight]

I will measure my baer taper bolts tonight.

[FFRSpec72]

Or someone can just make a taper bushing/sleve for a 1/2 bolt or what ever mm size the hole in the spindle is

[DSR-3]

Based on some quick and dirty measurements last night- I'm pretty sure the Subaru parts are 7 degree taper.
Since my tie-rod debacle, I've been looking at bump-steer solutions for the replacement.

[FFRSpec72]

Based on some quick and dirty measurements last night- I'm pretty sure the Subaru parts are 7 degree taper.
Since my tie-rod debacle, I've been looking at bump-steer solutions for the replacement.

If that is true, then the pinto spacer, the speedway Adjustable Tie-Rod Adapter Stud to Heim and some ends and would be all set.

Here are some more 7 degree taper http://www.allstarperformance.com/specSheets/pdf/219.pdf and http://steinjager.com/shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=30913

[DSR-3]

That's what I'm hoping for. The greatest challenge may be the threaded link or "sleeve". As I recall, the Baer parts are M14 inner thread, and 5/8" outer thread, perfect... Thinking of making them, but I don't have those taps and they are not cheap.

[FFRSpec72]

That's what I'm hoping for. The greatest challenge may be the threaded link or "sleeve". As I recall, the Baer parts are M14 inner thread, and 5/8" outer thread, perfect... Thinking of making them, but I don't have those taps and they are not cheap.

But you could just use a M14 rod end (m14 heim joint) and M14 sleeve and be done

[DSR-3]

The 5/8" adapter post diameter is larger than M14. I've seen oversize shank rod-ends, but not oversized spherical ones, so M16 x M14 is probably not an option. I've not come across an M14 sleeve either.

[Hindsight]

Yes, going to 5/8 from M14 is tough. Will need custom made sleeve. Thats part of the Baer kit but one of us could make a batch of them to sell.

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm going to show my suspension ignorance here: Is the same as the Whiteline Bump Steer pieces? I have them on my Spec B.
http://www.whiteline.com.au/product_detail4.php?part_number=KCA313

https://www.rallysportdirect.com/part/ball-joints/whi-kca313-whiteline-front-roll-center-adjustment-kit

[flynntuna]

Yes, going to 5/8 from M14 is tough. Will need custom made sleeve. Thats part of the Baer kit but one of us could make a batch of them to sell.

I'd be in for a group buy.

[FFRSpec72]

I'm going to show my suspension ignorance here: Is the same as the Whiteline Bump Steer pieces? I have them on my Spec B.
http://www.whiteline.com.au/product_detail4.php?part_number=KCA313

https://www.rallysportdirect.com/part/ball-joints/whi-kca313-whiteline-front-roll-center-adjustment-kit

So the 818 needs around 2 to 2.25" of spacers and non of the kits provide that so you either have to buy a kit, drill out spindle and get a bolt that is long enough to allow that amount of spacing

[Hindsight]

The whiteline kit affects both roll center and bump steer. I am not sure the roll center changes, which are designed for the WRX, are well-suited fir the 818, and the bump steer portion of it is non adjustable. To get to zero bump steer, you must use an adjustabe kit.

If the speedway taper bolts work, I could probably make aluminum tube nuts myself and offer them here. For anyone piecing sonething together on their own, be sure you get really high quality rod ends, like the kind Pegasus offers.

[RetroRacing]

I bought that whiteline stuff before I knew you needed 2" plus of spacer......so I sold them. I drilled the arms in place, slowly with lots of lube, took about 10 minutes for both sides.

[Hindsight]

Doesn't look like the speedway taper bolts are going to work unfortunately. I measured the Baer taper bolts (and since they are made specifically for the WRX, I have to assume they are correct) and the measurements I get are 0.583 bottom and 0.500 top. The speedway bolts are Top of Taper: 0.560" Bottom of Taper: 0.630". However, it appears the taper degree is the same.

That means someone is going to have to machine something or have it machined. 4140 chromoly steel. Should have a hex shoulder on it too. Wouldn't be super cheap to have something like that made due to the fact that so many steps are involved. It would need to be turned, machined for a hex shoulder, threads cut in top and bottom. You might be able to get away without a hex shoulder, hoping that the taper grips well enough to prevent turning.

I think drilling out the spindle may be the best option. I think Chad did his on the car using a stepped drill bit to start. I believe he has pics in his thread. If you wanted to remove the spindle and put it in a drill press, it would only take 15 minutes to remove it from the car. You don't need to remove the hub.

[FFRSpec72]

Doesn't look like the speedway taper bolts are going to work unfortunately. I measured the Baer taper bolts (and since they are made specifically for the WRX, I have to assume they are correct) and the measurements I get are 0.583 bottom and 0.500 top. The speedway bolts are Top of Taper: 0.560" Bottom of Taper: 0.630". However, it appears the taper degree is the same.

That means someone is going to have to machine something or have it machined. 4140 chromoly steel. Should have a hex shoulder on it too. Wouldn't be super cheap to have something like that made due to the fact that so many steps are involved. It would need to be turned, machined for a hex shoulder, threads cut in top and bottom. You might be able to get away without a hex shoulder, hoping that the taper grips well enough to prevent turning.

I think drilling out the spindle may be the best option. I think Chad did his on the car using a stepped drill bit to start. I believe he has pics in his thread. If you wanted to remove the spindle and put it in a drill press, it would only take 15 minutes to remove it from the car. You don't need to remove the hub.

To do it right and you would also want the bottom threads to be M14 so it would fit in a M14 heim and then use a M14 sleeve, so would need someone to machine that bump steer stud, ohh well

[Mechie3]

Does anyone have a sketch with dimensions of what they're looking for?

[Canadian818]

I neck deep in wiring, but whatever you guys figure out I'm in. I definitely think we need a longer sleeve. When I did my alignment it was concerning how little threads are in the tie rod end. I'm also in the early group where the rack sits to one side so if I center my wheel there's actually not enough threads on the passenger side.

[Mechie3]

I have rack extenders that fit the newer style racks (larger thread, M14? M16? Can't remember).

[FFRSpec72]

Does anyone have a sketch with dimensions of what they're looking for?

Here you go, I'm not 100% sure of measurements yet, others will chime in as they may have the Baer stud to get exact measurements from, but this is what it would look like, so if we had this stud you can then use the M14 Heim red ends ( https://www.summitracing.com/search/product-line/fk-jmx-jmxl-series-rod-ends?autoview=SKU&keyword=JMX14M&sortby=BestKeywordMatch&sortorder=Ascending )
and a M14 sleeve (http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/moog-es460s) with RH and LH threads
and 2" 14mm spacer ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metric-Steel-Bushings-Spacer-Sleeve18-MM-OD-X-14-MM-ID-X-25-MM-Long-2-Pcs-/111450372481?hash=item19f2f5b981 )

59105
A - 1.550
C - 4.904
E - 2.75
F - 0.675
H - 0.875
L - 0.620
Taper Angle - 7 degrees
Thread 1 - 9/16-18
Thread 2 - M14
Housing Material: 4130 Chrome Moly

Stud Material: Grade 8 Equivalent

[Zach34]

Wow this escalated quickly. The pinto rod from Speedway (search "91636055") does indeed fit. I initially bought the Baer kit, then added the pinto adapter to get more adjustment length. I'm still not sure it's going to be long enough. I did raise my rack a little bit, too.

The picture is just a mock-up. Don't mind the spacer stack - just temporary. I will likely need a longer rod end or adjustment sleeve. The engagement is minimal with the Baer sleeves and the toe temporarily set by eyeball.

59107

[Mechie3]

Stud Material: Grade 8 Equivalent

I spent some time this morning and last night looking up grade 8. I don't have access to the SAE standard (not paying $70 for it), but the generic specs of Grade 8

SAE J429 Grade 8
Tensile Strength: 150,000 PSI minimum
Proof Strength: 120,000 PSI
Yield Strength: 130,000 PSI minimum
Hardness: HRC 33-39

I can get 4142 (ETD-150) which has a strength of 130k. Grade 8 doesn't specify material, only those specs, which can be obtained through various material and heat treating combos. I don't have access to heat treating equipment (aside from a torch and bucket of oil which isn't very controlled). I could try to make some from the ETD-150.

there's also an argument that grade 8 should be rolled threads vs cut, but found conflicting information of "it's rolled because it's more economical" vs "it's rolled because it's stronger" and, from what I can tell, the SAE spec doesn't actually say.

[Hindsight]

Wow this escalated quickly. The pinto rod from Speedway (search "91636055") does indeed fit. I initially bought the Baer kit, then added the pinto adapter to get more adjustment length. I'm still not sure it's going to be long enough. I did raise my rack a little bit, too.

The picture is just a mock-up. Don't mind the spacer stack - just temporary. I will likely need a longer rod end or adjustment sleeve. The engagement is minimal with the Baer sleeves and the toe temporarily set by eyeball.

59107

Thanks for sharing this. Does the taper fit perfectly snug in the spindle? It doesn't look like it is all the way in. That is what I was concerned about because the 7 degree angle matches the subaru, but the top and bottom diameters do not so while it might fight snugly in there, it doesn't go all the way in. I *guess* that might not be a problem.....

[FFRSpec72]

I spent some time this morning and last night looking up grade 8. I don't have access to the SAE standard (not paying $70 for it), but the generic specs of Grade 8

SAE J429 Grade 8
Tensile Strength: 150,000 PSI minimum
Proof Strength: 120,000 PSI
Yield Strength: 130,000 PSI minimum
Hardness: HRC 33-39

I can get 4142 (ETD-150) which has a strength of 130k. Grade 8 doesn't specify material, only those specs, which can be obtained through various material and heat treating combos. I don't have access to heat treating equipment (aside from a torch and bucket of oil which isn't very controlled). I could try to make some from the ETD-150.

there's also an argument that grade 8 should be rolled threads vs cut, but found conflicting information of "it's rolled because it's more economical" vs "it's rolled because it's stronger" and, from what I can tell, the SAE spec doesn't actually say.

From what I can find the 4130 and 4140 family of steel are very similar in chemical makeup. Can you get 4130 steel bar (chrome molly) as that is what the other studs are made out of. Either way it might be worth trying to make some, I would support your material purchase and time/effort. Need to find out from Hindsight the exact measurements of the baer stud. If you could duplicate that with a M14 stud and like 2.75" long that should allow folks to build their own bump steer kit cheaper and less work.

So let me know what you need to get a prototype done.

[FFRSpec72]

I will likely need a longer rod end or adjustment sleeve. The engagement is minimal with the Baer sleeves and the toe temporarily set by eyeball.

59107

So what is the length of the thread on the Baer rod end and the length of the sleeve that they provide ?

[Canadian818]

Perhaps we should start a new thread for this, maybe drum up some more interest. Like Tony, I'd be willing to pay early so there's little to no financial investment for Mechie.

[Mechie3]

From what I can find the 4130 and 4140 family of steel are very similar in chemical makeup. Can you get 4130 steel bar (chrome molly) as that is what the other studs are made out of. Either way it might be worth trying to make some, I would support your material purchase and time/effort. Need to find out from Hindsight the exact measurements of the baer stud. If you could duplicate that with a M14 stud and like 2.75" long that should allow folks to build their own bump steer kit cheaper and less work.

So let me know what you need to get a prototype done.

Non heat treated 4130 only has a 60ksi strength vs the 130 of ETD 4140 (basically a heat treated machinable 4140). I don't know if 4130 is available pre heat treated (and if it can be machined easily after treating) and I can't heat treat it myself. 4140ETD looks to be reasonably priced.

[FFRSpec72]

Non heat treated 4130 only has a 60ksi strength vs the 130 of ETD 4140 (basically a heat treated machinable 4140). I don't know if 4130 is available pre heat treated (and if it can be machined easily after treating) and I can't heat treat it myself. 4140ETD looks to be reasonably priced.

Lets give it a try, PM me and tell me what you need

[STiPWRD]

Perhaps we should start a new thread for this, maybe drum up some more interest. Like Tony, I'd be willing to pay early so there's little to no financial investment for Mechie.
+1 for starting a new thread, I'd be interested.

As this is a critical application, it's vital that we do our homework - Mechie3 is off to a good start. There are several variants of heat treatable alloys out there depending on what sort of strength, ductility, corrosion resistance, etc. you need. I once had to design some very high strength pins for a space application so we chose to grind them out of O1 tool steel and then heat treat them. Once heat treated, these material can be very strong but can also get brittle and I don't know what sort of loads are placed on the rod ends during racing.

Just for kicks, I looked up what ARP makes their head studs (for an EJ257 block) out of and it's 8740 nickel chrome moly alloy (152 ksi yield, 167 ksi ultimate). I believe they roll their threads instead of cutting them. There are many options out there.

I'd suggest getting a machine shop to do the heat treating and hardness testing to verify the ultimate strength.

[Zach34]

Thanks for sharing this. Does the taper fit perfectly snug in the spindle? It doesn't look like it is all the way in. That is what I was concerned about because the 7 degree angle matches the subaru, but the top and bottom diameters do not so while it might fight snugly in there, it doesn't go all the way in. I *guess* that might not be a problem.....

Yes, it's a good fit. I agree it looks like it's not all the way through, but it looks/feels like the correct taper and there are just enough threads to fully engage the locknut. I don't think it's a problem. You want to clamp on the taper so there is no play. If the bottom hex sat flush against the bottom of the spindle arm, the taper might not fit tight enough and it might be more difficult to remove since there's nowhere to stick a pickle fork.

All that said, I'm not sure it's long enough to eliminate the bump steer, but it's already so long, I feel like it'd be smart to add some structure to the spindle. Since I have more time than money right now (and I have very little time), I might go ahead and do something like that. The problem with fabricating something, like Mechie points out, is it probably needs to be hardened to some standard spec. Grade 5 would probably be fine. The risk of the torch/oil at home would be making it too brittle and having it crack.

[Zach34]

So what is the length of the thread on the Baer rod end and the length of the sleeve that they provide ?

Upon further inspection, the thread engagement might be okay, but I have no idea really since I've only eye-balled the toe for when I had to move earlier this year. The rod-end has 1.75" long threads, and the sleeve is 4" long. I had about 5/8" engagement on each end, which I think is probably good. Who knows if that would hold after a real alignment.

Annoyingly, both the rod ends and both ends of the sleeve are right hand thread, so you have to disconnect the rod end to adjust. Might be all the excuse I need to swap out the rod end and sleeve.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Upon further inspection, the thread engagement might be okay, but I have no idea really since I've only eye-balled the toe for when I had to move earlier this year. The rod-end has 1.75" long threads, and the sleeve is 4" long. I had about 5/8" engagement on each end, which I think is probably good. Who knows if that would hold after a real alignment.

Annoyingly, both the rod ends and both ends of the sleeve are right hand thread, so you have to disconnect the rod end to adjust. Might be all the excuse I need to swap out the rod end and sleeve.
They adjust the same as a regular Subaru.

[FFRSpec72]

They adjust the same as a regular Subaru.

So are the Subaru steering rod ends RH or LH threads, I assume they are both the same ?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

So are the Subaru steering rod ends RH or LH threads, I assume they are both the same ?

The Subaru tie rod ends only have one right hand thread. You loosen on nut and rotate the rod that goes into the rack.
You can do the same with the Baer kit.

59166

[FFRSpec72]

So when I was at SEMA I talked to Baer and they sell just the 5/8 to 14mm sleeves, so I bought a set and will build my own bump steer so I don't have to drill out the spindles.

60693

[DSR-3]

I'm going the same route. Racecraft (http://www.racecraft.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=92_539_540&products_id=1697)sells 3.5" and 5.5" long sleeves too.60694

[FFRSpec72]

I'm going the same route. Racecraft (http://www.racecraft.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=92_539_540&products_id=1697)sells 3.5" and 5.5" long sleeves too.

You then have to find 14mm rod end and a stud to match, so I'm going with a 5/8 rod end stud from SpeedWay and then two 5/8 rod ends (long) and use the sleeves from Baer to go from 5/8 to 14mm

[DSR-3]

? The racecraft parts are also 14mm x 5/8-18.

[FFRSpec72]

? The racecraft parts are also 14mm x 5/8-18.

Sorry, a failure to read correctly

[FFRSpec72]

Here is my bump steer kit, no modification to spindles

61190

[longislandwrx]

awesome. did you get the pinto bolts? I'm running S height now, but id love to not have to change any parts when I drop down to R, if I can just replace the bolt, that would be nice.

61206

[FFRSpec72]

awesome. did you get the pinto bolts? I'm running S height now, but id love to not have to change any parts when I drop down to R, if I can just replace the bolt, that would be nice.

61206

5/8 " Pinto studs, 14mm RH to 5/8 inch LH sleeves, 5/8" rod ends with 5/8 LH tread, so these are adjustable by turning sleeve in like the other kits, so you should be set to go with longer studs

[longislandwrx]

where did you get your 5/8 spacers from?

[FFRSpec72]

where did you get your 5/8 spacers from?

From Speedway when I bought the pinto style 5/8" studs

[Frank818]

Is that bump kit adjustable (spacers) and does it cost less than Baer's?

[FFRSpec72]

Is that bump kit adjustable (spacers) and does it cost less than Baer's?

Has about 2.5" of adjustment, costs about $47 for studs and spacers, $62 for the sleeves and $74 for the rod ends, so about $174 including shipping (that may vary depending on where you live but I had all shipped USPS), so same price as Baer but no drilling, no additional bolts (Baer stud is too short so you have to buy something and spacers), and can adjust via the sleeve as the Baer has all RH threads thus a pain to adjust. So this will be about $40 cheaper in the end.

[Hindsight]

Nice setup Tony! I like it better than the route I took. I hope it works well for you on the track.

[FFRSpec72]

The last part I need to complete my front end rework to fix the camber, slotted spindle adapters will push the top closer to the ball joint and give me the camber I need. So with this and the bump steer I should be all set

61284

[Frank818]

Sounds like a nice bumpsteer kit.

Here? http://www.speedwaymotors.com/

[FFRSpec72]

Sounds like a nice bumpsteer kit.

Here? http://www.speedwaymotors.com/

Here are the parts I sourced out to get a bump steer kit that would work, height wise and ajustable

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Adjustable-Tie-Rod-Adapter-Stud-to-Heim,3333.html?OriginalQuery=91636055PINTO
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Search?query=Steel+Control+Arm+Spacer%2C+5%2F8+Inc h+x+1+Inch
http://www.racecraft.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=0&keyword=RC21083&x=21&y=8 (http://www.racecraft.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=92_539_540&products_id=1697)
http://steinjager.com/shop/index.php?route=product/search&search=J0041201

[Frank818]

Awesome tnx!

[STiPWRD]

Thanks for posting all the links! You've probably mentioned this before but what's your target ride height and plan for selecting the correct rod spacer?

[FFRSpec72]

Thanks for posting all the links! You've probably mentioned this before but what's your target ride height and plan for selecting the correct rod spacer?

My current ride height is 3.25 front and 3.75 rear, I will keet that height, but I am on the S ride height holes in front, I will change to R ride height holes once I mount the new slotted spindle adapters as the will push the top of the wheel inwards and that will resolve my tire and fender rubbing issue. I have a bump steer measuring guage (Longacre) and a mock up the bump steer puts be at about 2.25" of spacers on the S ride height, will have to measure one I have everything in pace

[STiPWRD]

My current ride height is 3.25 front and 3.75 rear, I will keet that height, but I am on the S ride height holes in front, I will change to R ride height holes once I mount the new slotted spindle adapters as the will push the top of the wheel inwards and that will resolve my tire and fender rubbing issue. I have a bump steer measuring guage (Longacre) and a mock up the bump steer puts be at about 2.25" of spacers on the S ride height, will have to measure one I have everything in pace
Thanks, is it a 1-to-1 relationship between ride height and spacers? For instance, if I'm using the S holes with 4.5" ride height, would that mean I need 1" spacers? Or is it more complicated than that?

[FFRSpec72]

Thanks, is it a 1-to-1 relationship between ride height and spacers? For instance, if I'm using the S holes with 4.5" ride height, would that mean I need 1" spacers? Or is it more complicated than that?

More complicated, as the Lower Control Arm (LCA) and the tie rod shafts must move in parallel as much as they can, so you have to measure the movement when LCA moves up and down, so basically the gauge measures this as you move the wheel up and down (I usually remove spring to I can compress and decompress the LCA).

[Hindsight]

The slotting on those spindle brackets looks perfect... how did you manage that Tony?

[RetroRacing]

Nice set up Tony!!

[FFRSpec72]

The slotting on those spindle brackets looks perfect... how did you manage that Tony?


Compliments of Factory Five Racing

[Hindsight]

Wow very cool!

[FFRSpec72]

Update on the bump steer and spindle adapters, both are installed, I did take the rod end studs to a machine shop to mill off a slight amount as the angle/taper was not exact, but it will work, I just wanted to be 100% sure I don't have issues on the track. Also I used the 5.5" sleeves and the 3.5" may be better, so I updated the links to the 3.5.

61591 61592 61593 61594

[Mitch Wright]

Looks great Tony, it is interesting to see the difference to achive the similar results.
61606LH 61607RH

[FFRSpec72]

Looks great Tony, it is interesting to see the difference to active the similar results.
61606LH 61607RH

Yes, I have a 3/4" spacer at the bottom so I have another 1/2" I can go down if needed. I have yet to see how much Camber I can get now with the new spindle adapters. I just traded in my old scales for a set of new Longacre pro scales with scale turn-in plates so will be interesting how these will work.

Its interesting that you have different lengths on each side

[Mitch Wright]

Thats where it was happiest. Ride height, camber and caster all can make a difference. I bought turn-in plates a few years ago, use greased plates of steel for years. Sure speeds up the process.

[Hindsight]

I bought turn-in plates a few years ago, use greased plates of steel for years. Sure speeds up the process.

I really want a set of turn plates that have an angle gauge on them. It would make checking caster SO much easier but I just can't stomach the price for a decent set of plates (or corner scales). Stuff is SO expensive and used infrequently.

[FFRSpec72]

I really want a set of turn plates that have an angle gauge on them. It would make checking caster SO much easier but I just can't stomach the price for a decent set of plates (or corner scales). Stuff is SO expensive and used infrequently.

I know but with a couple of race cars it becomes a must to have, my turn plates fit under the scales so I can do all my alignment on the scales

[Mitch Wright]

Hindsight get yourself a 4 of 12"X12" 3/16 steel or aluminum plate add some grease between the plates and you are good to go.
If you end up doing a lot of aliginments get some trick tables, only took me 38 years of a lot of tinkering with set ups to break down and buy a set.

[FFRSpec72]

Here is what I got for turn plates now http://www.longacreracing.com/products.aspx?itemid=1706&prodid=7178&pagetitle=%223D%22+Ball+Roller++SideSliders%e2%84% a2+

[Scargo]

Don't laugh, but I use Masonite with sheets of waxed paper sandwiched in-between. I jiggle the car a bit to make sure they have slipped and the car settled. I find it to be fairly accurate. I also oiled the Masonite but I'm not sure it's necessary or has helped.
I've also made my own angleometer... you know, the camber-caster gauges... with my own bracket, bungee cords and a Stanley FatMax 10" digital level, with laser (also sold as Hammerhead by Walmart (https://www.walmart.com/ip/Hammerhead-10-Digital-Level-with-Laser/46819947) and Ebay for $50). I also use a Bosch torpedo laser level, strings and so-on to align for toe.

[Mitch Wright]

No laughing here I stated out using glue down floor tiles from Lowes or Home Depot that are .50-.60 cents each and make a grease sandwich. They also work great as scale pad shims.
I like the Longacre Pads Tony, are they a pretty new product?
I bought these from a buddy that works at a tool supply house https://www.shopequipmentparts.com/alignment-turn-plates-set-of-2-pointer-standard-duty-ships-free-in-the-usa/ you can find cheaper options on Amazon for example which think would be fine and work great in a home shop. I have used these at friends shop and they worked great. https://www.amazon.com/Rand-Alignment-Turntables-plates-Adjustment/dp/B008OHRWTS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1480769584&sr=8-5&keywords=alignment+plates

[C.Plavan]

Plastic Kitchen trash bags with PAM sprayed inside the bag is the Bee's Knees. Save your cash.

[Scargo]

Plastic Kitchen trash bags with PAM sprayed inside the bag is the Bee's Knees. Save your cash.I suspect it would work well and you have a vegetable oil that won't eat the trash bag.
I just bought a box of polypropylene trash bags so kerosene wouldn't dissolve them. Those I could use with any oil. Come to think of it a large zip-lock bag would be impervious to any oil or grease.
Nifty idea!

[turbomacncheese]

I'm gonna end up leaving one on the floor and hit it cartoon-banana-peel-style. Wait a minute, what about a banana peel IN a ziploc bag?

[Scargo]

My garage floor has close to a one in ten slope, I would assume, like most home garages. The problem with all these "plastic and oil" kind of solutions is that unless you use something like a cookie sheet with a rim on the bottom... wait, wait... a Teflon coated cookie sheet!..., then you run the risk of the car sliding off the pads if under all four wheels at the same time. I do use shims to level my cars but they still move around. A smooth flat base is important. Most garage floors won't cut it.

[Hindsight]

Glyn, I never have all four on grease plates... just two at a time. Very easy to switch them front to back, and most times you are just working on the front anyway. V rare that you need to mess with rear toe, which is all you'd need them for.

[FFRSpec72]

Dry sump going in

61676 61677

Muffler on to keep away the decibel police at the track

61678 61679

[Frank818]

Tony, you had to cut the OEM rod ends for your DIY no-drilling bumpsteer kit?

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, you had to cut the OEM rod ends for your DIY no-drilling bumpsteer kit?

No I did not.

[Hindsight]

Looks like a lot of winter projects Tony. I'll be interested to see how the dry sump works.

[Frank818]

Update on the bump steer and spindle adapters, both are installed, I did take the rod end studs to a machine shop to mill off a slight amount as the angle/taper was not exact, but it will work, I just wanted to be 100% sure I don't have issues on the track. Also I used the 5.5" sleeves and the 3.5" may be better, so I updated the links to the 3.5.

61591 61592 61593 61594


I don't understand what you did here. You removed a slight amount of the rod end?

[FFRSpec72]

I don't understand what you did here. You removed a slight amount of the rod end?

The only change is to use a 3.5 inch sleeve and not a 5.5 inch sleeve as that will give you more adjustability, the rod ends don't have to be cut, nothing is cut or drilled

[FFRSpec72]

Mirror upgrade time, went with SPA GT mirrors, and friend adapted (welded) the mirror base to the aluminum tube mounts I had, the body is too shaky to hold the side mirrors

61728

[Frank818]

Nice trick! Easier on the R, though. :)

[FFRSpec72]

Had to use 5mm spacers to keep tires away from ball joint with the updated spindle adapters, should have some great camber now

61769

[FFRSpec72]

Dry sump installed, lines run, now to prime it and try to start it

6177461771 61772 61773

61775

[C.Plavan]

Had to use 5mm spacers to keep tires away from ball joint with the updated spindle adapters, should have some great camber now

61769

You might want to take some camber out. Be careful. There will still be tire deflection up that high, plus the suspension movement (bushing compression and shock angular travel). Also check max turning side to side- It will only take a couple of hits with a Dot R tire to rip through the Ball Joint boot. You don't want to ruin a weekend at the track. -2.5 to was the sweet spot for for my tires temps up front.

[Frank818]

Nice looking tire.

Tony where did you get your corrugated 3"-look-alike ducts?

I see you have the same brakes as I do, how do you like them?

[FFRSpec72]

Nice looking tire.

Tony where did you get your corrugated 3"-look-alike ducts?

I see you have the same brakes as I do, how do you like them?

yea a lot of crap on the tires as my last session I had to put it in the infield and thus all the crap on the tires, the brake duct feeds the intercooler from the side scoops. The brakes are great I have been using Carbotech XP10 compound, same as I use on my challenge car, and stops very well

[Zach34]

-2.5 to was the sweet spot for for my tires temps up front.

Was that front and rear? Great to have that starting point. Thanks!

[C.Plavan]

Was that front and rear? Great to have that starting point. Thanks!

-3.0 rear is where I settled at.

[FFRSpec72]

I am getting a new firewall built (between seat and fuel cell) so that the tech inspection folks don't continue to tell me to do so, Tom Ryon (same person that made the mirror mounts and the dry sump tank mounts) is doing the work, he has been helping out on the dry sump and etc., one of the best welder's I have seen, and a great fabricator and great FFR builder ! So we will see how this turns out and if the tech folks will stop complaining.

[Zach34]

What was the problem with your firewall? I did a quick search on the thread but couldn't find the back-story.

[Mitch Wright]

Tony, yes details on the firewall?

[Frank818]

Tony, what do you think of 3-piece high-strength half-weight aluminum rod ends for the same price as steel ones for steering application?

[Mitch Wright]

Frank, not on the suspension IMO

[Frank818]

Tnx Mitch.

[FFRSpec72]

I would also not use aluminum on a tie rod end,

The issue with my firewall is that I did not have anything between the fuel cell and the seat, the tech inspectors said that I needed one, I said there are no rules that say I do, so we went around about this and concluded that I would put one in to satisfy both SCCA and ICSCC even though there are no rules. Hopefully it will turn out nice and I will be glad that I did it.

[Mechie3]

I wouldn't use aluminum either. Steel has an endurance limit of about 1/2 at 1 million cycles (meaning at 1mil cycles, the material still has 1/2 its original strength). Aluminum has no endurance limit. Maybe on a dedicated race car that had a specific maintenance schedule setup and inspection pre/post race/event and the extra weight meant an edge where money was on the line. People sometimes forget that cars like Indycar use disposable parts. Very, very, expensive disposable parts. Aluminum is also more prone to fatigue fracture and cracks.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/S-N_curves.PNG

[DanielsDM]

Tony,
The requirements as I understand them (an I'm not a NASA or SCCA tech inspector) is that there must be a physical barrier between the fuel container and driver compartment. You have a bladder type fuel cell inside a metal tank (correct), thus the bladder is the fuel container and the tank provides the barrier. The connection fittings, filler tube etc.. must also be separated from the driver's compartment. I don't remember how you finished the filler tube and connections, are they in the cockpit? Is that what the inspector had issue with?
I'm taking a slightly different approach: I have a custom built FIA approved bladder without a metal tank. The FFR firewall, along with sheeting on the rear bulkhead and inner sides will form the enclosure for the bladder. The formed multi-piece FFR firewall will be welded together to one piece, as well as a fabbed sheet metal piece that encloses the filler tube and access plate. It is essentially the same way both of Davidson Racing's cars were done so I'm not anticipating any inspection issues but I would like to know exactly what problems the inspector had with your setup.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony,
The requirements as I understand them (an I'm not a NASA or SCCA tech inspector) is that there must be a physical barrier between the fuel container and driver compartment. You have a bladder type fuel cell inside a metal tank (correct), thus the bladder is the fuel container and the tank provides the barrier. The connection fittings, filler tube etc.. must also be separated from the driver's compartment. I don't remember how you finished the filler tube and connections, are they in the cockpit? Is that what the inspector had issue with?
I'm taking a slightly different approach: I have a custom built FIA approved bladder without a metal tank. The FFR firewall, along with sheeting on the rear bulkhead and inner sides will form the enclosure for the bladder. The formed multi-piece FFR firewall will be welded together to one piece, as well as a fabbed sheet metal piece that encloses the filler tube and access plate. It is essentially the same way both of Davidson Racing's cars were done so I'm not anticipating any inspection issues but I would like to know exactly what problems the inspector had with your setup.

I am using a Harmon Racing cell with a internal bladder, FIA approved, so the bladder has an aluminum casing around this, the cell has the AN fittings for vent, return and fuel and the fuel fill (this has a fuel fill hose to outside of car behind the engine firewall I have), these are in the cockpit area and this is what they were complaining about and I can't really isolate the vent, return and fuel without inclosing the whole fuel cell as the cell goes the width of the car. I really don't get this as rules allow you have a dry sump tank in the cockpit w/o any protection.

[FFRSpec72]

Here is my current setup w/o firewall, Tom just installed the lower half, now has to fabricate an upper half

61849

[C.Plavan]

NASA rules state a Barrier is needed.
15.4 Fuel Cell / Tank
All fuel cells must be FIA FT3 (or higher) certified.
A fuel cell is not required, except as specified by class rules.. All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with
the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules.
1. There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck
hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment.


Looking at the above picture- For safety- You may want to think about putting rubber grommets on the rear firewall holes where the fuel lines go through.

[FFRSpec72]

NASA rules state a Barrier is needed.
15.4 Fuel Cell / Tank
All fuel cells must be FIA FT3 (or higher) certified.
A fuel cell is not required, except as specified by class rules.. All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with
the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules.
1. There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck
hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment.


Looking at the above picture- For safety- You may want to think about putting rubber grommets on the rear firewall holes where the fuel lines go through.

I read that and it is a SHOULD, not a MUST or SHALL thus it is optional and that is why I press them on this

[C.Plavan]

I read that and it is a SHOULD, not a MUST or SHALL thus it is optional and that is why I press them on this

Lol
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/should
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/shall

[FFRSpec72]

Lol
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/should
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/shall

Not how documents are written, all FIA documents use the ISO standards, and you can search ISO for the definition of terms here, and should = ought to, whereas shall = mandatory, as this avoids everyone's interpretation if shall, must, should, etc.

See https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#search

Also see SCCA

1.2.3. Interpreting and Applying the GCR A. Interpreting the GCR shall not be strained or tortured and applying the GCR shall be logical, remembering that the GCR cannot specifically cover all possible situations. Words such as “shall” or “shall not”, “will” or “will not”, “can not”, “may not”, “are” or “must” are mandatory; and words such as “may” and “should” are permissive.

[Mitch Wright]

Tony in all my years of racing the firewall between the cell or tank has really not changed much if any, which is why the tech guys want to see a firewall separating the cell from the driver. Looks to me to be an easy fix with your cell set up, it is really no different to what Chad and I had to do.
618556185661857

[FFRSpec72]

Tony in all my years of racing the firewall between the cell or tank has really not changed much if any, which is why the tech guys want to see a firewall separating the cell from the driver. Looks to me to be an easy fix with your cell set up, it is really no different to what Chad and I had to do.
618556185661857

I am doing that now, but there is no regulation that says I MUST do this, I'm doing it to avoid the hassle I have received when I was getting a log book, as I don't want to go through the hassle each year on the annual tech inspection. I just hate doing things that are not written. I also don't know why they allow a dry sump tank in the cockpit and that does not have to be behind a firewall as a fuel cell has technology to keep fuel from coming out in a roll over or crash, the dry sump tanks have none, and I can tell you most of the fires I have seen on the track are because of oil not fuel (blown engines/rears/trans).

[Mitch Wright]

I understand and agree with you and really surprised that an oil tank is allowed with out a fire wall as well. I was will SCCA Pro for 10 years writing rules for World Challenge and Trans Am, in both cases a firewall is required for the reasons you have stated.

[Mitch Wright]

I understand and agree with you and really surprised that an oil tank is allowed with out a fire wall as well. I was with SCCA Pro for 10 years writing rules for World Challenge and Trans Am, in both cases a firewall is required for the reasons you have stated.

[Zach34]

I get where you're coming from on the verbiage. In some segments of military publications, "should" denotes something that is only strongly recommended (i.e. - you better follow it unless you have a good reason not to), and "shall" denotes something that must be done or adhered to no matter what. However, those terms are always defined in their specific use up front. NASA could probably change the wording here, but it's clear what their intent is, even though it says "should" - a firewall must be installed.

I mean really, think if you had a fuel leak at one of the fittings. If it ignites, you probably won't notice it until something on your body is on fire - not going to be able to pull the fire extinguisher fast enough - unless you have a firewall.

[Scargo]

DanielsDM (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/member.php?17696-DanielsDM) introduced a new word "fuel container" which I think has no place in this discussion as it muddies the water.

As said, NASA rules state a barrier is needed.
15.4 Fuel Cell / Tank
All fuel cells must be FIA FT3 (or higher) certified.
A fuel cell is not required, except as specified by class rules.. All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with
the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules.
1. There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck
hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment.

I'm not a tech guy either but I see the difference in the use of the word "tank" and "fuel cell". A "tank" denotes a stock tank in its stock location, which means it has a barrier intrinsic to the car, or as manufactured. I don't think DOT allows cars to be sold without a barrier being between the tank and passengers.
A "fuel cell", when not behind the stock barrier, or with exposed fittings and hoses, does not have a barrier if anything is exposed. Fuel could spray out into the cockpit from a line or fitting without a barrier. So, once you install a fuel cell in a non-stock location the barrier must be constructed.
My 2 cents.
I also agree that oil is often what catches fire and just hot oil can burn you severely. I am now going to enclose my Accusump and fittings (which is in the passenger floorboard area of my STi) because of this or move it back to the engine compartment.
I think it's a serious lapse of safety (for the participant) that I can run a almost race legal, prepared car at a "track day" or HPDE event without meeting some of the fire safety standards of NASA/SCCA racing.

[Mechie3]

I'm with Tony on this one regarding verbiage. I'm involved a lot with requirements writing for engineering development. All requirements are required to say "shall" or "must" not "should" or "may". The first two are requirements (shall/must) the second two are "nice to haves". Nice to haves are not requirements and thus, we don't document them.

[FFRSpec72]

I get where you're coming from on the verbiage. In some segments of military publications, "should" denotes something that is only strongly recommended (i.e. - you better follow it unless you have a good reason not to), and "shall" denotes something that must be done or adhered to no matter what. However, those terms are always defined in their specific use up front. NASA could probably change the wording here, but it's clear what their intent is, even though it says "should" - a firewall must be installed.

I mean really, think if you had a fuel leak at one of the fittings. If it ignites, you probably won't notice it until something on your body is on fire - not going to be able to pull the fire extinguisher fast enough - unless you have a firewall.

I don't think so as in 15.4 there is a MUST for FIA FT3 certification then there is the SHOULD for a bulkhead, the writers chose 2 different words to denote different meanings. SCCA actually defines the terms and what they mean in the writing, I believe NASA and other orgs use SCCA as their model for rules.

[RetroRacing]

Here is my take on this. A fuel cell is the bladder inside the can (steel or alum), so if you cover the fittings, the can is the bulkhead that seperates the fuel cell from the driver. We again, separated ours out of ease of install with another layer.

[C.Plavan]

Always error on the side of safety. I still dont understand why some people don't get that.

[DanielsDM]

DanielsDM (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/member.php?17696-DanielsDM) introduced a new word "fuel container" which I think has no place in this discussion as it muddies the water.


I apologize if you think I muddied the water. My intent is to clarify that the bladder (which actually contains the fuel) is the fuel cell and not the metal can which is commonly used to enclose it. Thus the can serves as the barrier between the fuel cell and the driver compartment. The fittings, lines, connections etc... "should" also have a barrier separating them from the driver compartment.

[FFRSpec72]

I apologize if you think I muddied the water. My intent is to clarify that the bladder (which actually contains the fuel) is the fuel cell and not the metal can which is commonly used to enclose it. Thus the can serves as the barrier between the fuel cell and the driver compartment. The fittings, lines, connections etc... "should" also have a barrier separating them from the driver compartment.

is your "should" = optional or your "should" = mandatory ?

[DanielsDM]

is your "should" = optional or your "should" = mandatory ?

I agree with you that the way the rule is written should = optional. But for a car I'm racing in it is mandatory.

[FFRSpec72]

I agree with you that the way the rule is written should = optional. But for a car I'm racing in it is mandatory.

I would also agree that I would want this in a car that I am racing (as I'm doing it), I just did not like the way the tech inspectors were forcing me on rules that did not require it.

[DanielsDM]

Fuel fires are really ugly. A miata spectacularly went up in flames at night during the 2009 25 Hours of Thunderhill. The driver was lucky to get out with only a few 3rd degree burns. https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/fighting-fire/

[RetroRacing]

I was on track at the same time that happened, very scary! We considered wiring the kill switch to the fire pull, so that if you pull the fire system, it kills all electric in the car. People panic when fire is a threat, and sometimes forget to kill the car.

[FFRSpec72]

I finally received my OBDII to CAN bus cable for my Data Capture Pro, so now I feed the OBDII data from the Subaru ECU to the Data Capture Pro and display all the data I want/need, the cable from the ODBII port also serves as a power cable for the Data Capture Pro

62003 62004

[DanielsDM]

Are you using Race Capture Pro for data logging? I've never heard of Data Capture Pro. I saw RCP came out with their OBDII to CAN bus bridge module.

[FFRSpec72]

Are you using Race Capture Pro for data logging? I've never heard of Data Capture Pro. I saw RCP came out with their OBDII to CAN bus bridge module.

Yes I am using RCP for logging and for potential display on tablet. Their OBDII to CAN bus works great, the bus speed seems to be fine

[DanielsDM]

Yes I am using RCP for logging and for potential display on tablet. Their OBDII to CAN bus works great, the bus speed seems to be fine

Good to hear that the bus speed is acceptable. What parameters are you planning on logging from the OBDII port? I think I will direct wire a pulsed input for RPM instead of getting that from OBDII, this would free up bandwidth on the bus for other inputs.

[Sgt.Gator]

Tony this is great news, I can't wait to see how this works out for you. I love their endurance telemetry package so the pits can monitor the data in real time.

Until now I had dismissed RCP because they told me it wouldn't work with Pre 2008 Subaru SSM protocol. I even posted in their forum asking for updates because one other guy had made some mods to make it work for him using an Arduino:
ECU data from pre-canbus Subaru (https://forum.autosportlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=4587&highlight=)

Can you point me to the can bus bridge module? I see the adaptor cable on their website but not the module.

What I'd like to log off the Subaru ECU and into the RCP:
ECU_1 RPM RPM
ECU_2 SPEED Vehicle Speed
ECU_3 TPS Throttle Position Sensor
ECU_4 ECT Engine coolant temperature
ECU_5 TURBO_PRESS Turbo pressure
ECU_6 IN_VVT_R Right bank inlet timing
ECU_7 IN_VVT_L Left bank inlet timing
ECU_8 IGN_ADV Ignition advance
ECU_9 KNOCK_CORR Advances correction depending on detonation sensor
ECU_10 FUEL_LEV Fuel level
ECU_11 NEUTRAL Neutral sensor
ECU_12 CLUTCH Clutch disengaged signal
ECU_13 BRAKE Brake switch
ECU_14 ENG_LOAD Instant engine load
ECU_15 AIR_FLOW Air flow in the air pipes

I'm under the impression that the SSM protocol is too slow to log all these functions but at a minimum I want to log:
ECU_1 RPM RPM
ECU_3 TPS Throttle Position Sensor
ECU_4 ECT Engine coolant temperature
ECU_5 TURBO_PRESS Turbo pressure
ECU_9 KNOCK_CORR Advances correction depending on detonation sensor
ECU_13 BRAKE Brake switch

Everything else I can get with aftermarket sensors.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony this is great news, I can't wait to see how this works out for you. I love their endurance telemetry package so the pits can monitor the data in real time.

Until now I had dismissed RCP because they told me it wouldn't work with Pre 2008 Subaru SSM protocol. I even posted in their forum asking for updates because one other guy had made some mods to make it work for him using an Arduino:
ECU data from pre-canbus Subaru (https://forum.autosportlabs.com/viewtopic.php?t=4587&highlight=)

Can you point me to the can bus bridge module? I see the adaptor cable on their website but not the module.

What I'd like to log off the Subaru ECU and into the RCP:
ECU_1 RPM RPM
ECU_2 SPEED Vehicle Speed
ECU_3 TPS Throttle Position Sensor
ECU_4 ECT Engine coolant temperature
ECU_5 TURBO_PRESS Turbo pressure
ECU_6 IN_VVT_R Right bank inlet timing
ECU_7 IN_VVT_L Left bank inlet timing
ECU_8 IGN_ADV Ignition advance
ECU_9 KNOCK_CORR Advances correction depending on detonation sensor
ECU_10 FUEL_LEV Fuel level
ECU_11 NEUTRAL Neutral sensor
ECU_12 CLUTCH Clutch disengaged signal
ECU_13 BRAKE Brake switch
ECU_14 ENG_LOAD Instant engine load
ECU_15 AIR_FLOW Air flow in the air pipes

I'm under the impression that the SSM protocol is too slow to log all these functions but at a minimum I want to log:
ECU_1 RPM RPM
ECU_3 TPS Throttle Position Sensor
ECU_4 ECT Engine coolant temperature
ECU_5 TURBO_PRESS Turbo pressure
ECU_9 KNOCK_CORR Advances correction depending on detonation sensor
ECU_13 BRAKE Brake switch

Everything else I can get with aftermarket sensors.

So they make a CAN BUS bridge that is for 2006+ cars with actual CAN bus and then this new ODBII to CAN bus adapter and cable (which is in my picture). from my 2002 ECU I can log, RPM, SPEED, IAT, ECT and TPS. I have not tried TURBO PRESS, KNOCK or BREAK yet. So they allow different sampling rates also on the BUS, so I can choose to take 1 MHz, 5 MHz, etc.

So I don't think they have documented the a ODBII to CAN bus adapter and cable and software mapping updates.

[DanielsDM]

Gator,
The OBDII Classic adapter is not for sale yet. I inquired on the Autosportlabs blog and they said they're close. Had a manufacturing issue to resolve, no firm date as to when it will be ready. https://www.autosportlabs.com/kickstarter-update-obd-ii-classic-adapter/

[FFRSpec72]

Gator,
The OBDII Classic adapter is not for sale yet. I inquired on the Autosportlabs blog and they said they're close. Had a manufacturing issue to resolve, no firm date as to when it will be ready. https://www.autosportlabs.com/kickstarter-update-obd-ii-classic-adapter/

I was in on the beta/kickstart program since they are just down the road from me

[FFRSpec72]

The Classic ODBII adapter currently will let me monitor if provided by the ECU

Engine Temp
Engine Load
Fuel
Oil Temp
IAT
MAP
MAF
TPS
Fuel Pressure
Ign Timing
RPM
Wheel Speed

[Frank818]

Tony!

Damn I'm so sorry about that, what torque did you apply on both nuts for the bumpsteer?
I currently set them both at 20lbs, as per OEM specs, but not sure it's ok.

Also did you use loctite on those too? I have anti-seize grease but no loctite, figured the "lock"-nuts would lock enough.

[DanielsDM]

The Classic ODBII adapter currently will let me monitor if provided by the ECU

Engine Temp
Engine Load
Fuel
Oil Temp
IAT
MAP
MAF
TPS
Fuel Pressure
Ign Timing
RPM
Wheel Speed

I figured you were part of the beta program since your in WA and have one before they are for sale.

Are these the only ECU parameters that it will let you monitor, or will it allow you to access any parameter that the ECU provides? I have a Kiwi2 and Dash Command on my phone and I can configure it access any parameter the ECU provides. In addition to the ones you listed I also want to log AFR, commanded AFR, commanded TPS (drive by wire) and probably several others I can't think of right now.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony!

Damn I'm so sorry about that, what torque did you apply on both nuts for the bumpsteer?
I currently set them both at 20lbs, as per OEM specs, but not sure it's ok.

Also did you use loctite on those too? I have anti-seize grease but no loctite, figured the "lock"-nuts would lock enough.

20 lbs, and I used just nylon lock nuts

[FFRSpec72]

So with the holiday's, travel and snow I finally got a chance to get down to Portland where my car is right now, we primed the dry sump system, 4 quarts of oil in the dry sump tank, 1 quart in the crank (via normal oil fill), 1 quart to prime the pump. pulled all 4 plug wires and spun the engine for 3 or 4 min to get pressure up, reconnected the plugs fired up the engine and no leaks no issues. Added 2 more quarts to being the dry sump tank to half full. The car does sound better that I have the muffler on it now (straight pipe before).

Spent some time on the alignment, with the new spindle adapters I could get a max of -16 degrees camber (WOW), so we set it at -3.5 degrees and set the caster to +6 and the toe out to total 1/8 (1/16 on each side).

I did not get time to measure bump steer yet, I may get Tom to do that if I can't get back down in a few weeks.

The rear firewall is done, just missing the transition to the center console. The dash is cut and being assembled this week.

Sad news: I gained 98 lbs with the dry sump system and extra oil (9 quarts), and other work that has been done to car, So I will be looking to reduce some weight. The car is still 40/60 in weight distribution and exactly 49.9 percent cross weight. So that is looking really good (as adding dry sump I thought would have changed that somewhat).

[Scargo]

What kind of oil pressure are you seeing? Is it mechanically adjustable? Like what I'm hearing!

[FFRSpec72]

What kind of oil pressure are you seeing? Is it mechanically adjustable? Like what I'm hearing!

Over 100PSI not sure yet what it will be when on track. Non-adjustable since this is using stock JDM oil pump

[Hindsight]

Congrats on getting the dry sump in there. I'm sure that was a lot of work.

[Mitch Wright]

Nice work Tony, my car runs at 100psi when cold but drops down as it builds some temp. 70-75psi seem to be its happy place off idle when warmed up.

[DanielsDM]

Sad news: I gained 98 lbs with the dry sump system and extra oil (9 quarts), and other work that has been done to car, So I will be looking to reduce some weight. The car is still 40/60 in weight distribution and exactly 49.9 percent cross weight. So that is looking really good (as adding dry sump I thought would have changed that somewhat).

98 pounds!!!! Is the DS tank and pan made out of lead??:confused: I haven't weighed all the parts of my system yet but I'm thinking it will only add around 30lb including the oil.

[FFRSpec72]

98 pounds!!!! Is the DS tank and pan made out of lead??:confused: I haven't weighed all the parts of my system yet but I'm thinking it will only add around 30lb including the oil.

I grew 98 lbs with all the changes that I have made, suspension, firewall, dry sump, dash, etc., I would say the dry sump added over 50 lbs as you have the tank, the pan, the pump, the lines and fittings and the mounts for the tank (has to be pretty stout) and the extra 4 quarts of oil :-)