Milk Carton Guy Looking for Advice

[Dave Smith]

Guys,

Sorry for the absence. Since the buy-out in January I've been pretty busy making MAJOR changes to the company (more news on that shortly) and it has required my virtually full-time commit. I am also going to have to declare PM bankruptcy and start over since I'm verging on 100 unanswered PM's! Sorry 'bout that.

The 818 project is humming along and as you can imagine we are planning on doing an update at our Open House. We've been testing the chassis, suspension, brakes, and vehicle dynamics. The engineers are testing today as a matter of fact. Everybody wants to know what the first body will look like and we have some great progress on the body/(s) and will likely be shown at the FFR Open House on June 9th. Silence on my side does not mean that progress hasn't been going full speed. I won't make stupid promises and let people down, but I will say we are on target for an official unveil at SEMA in November and production in the first half of 2013.

I can't say enough about the corporate partners this project has had supporting it. The guys at Solidworks Software, Tom at HP, Dustin at Wilwood Brakes, Stan at TOYO Tires, Jim at KONI Shocks, the guys at AJW, Tim at GRM Magazine, and a bunch of others... The technology we are using to design, build, and test this car is really impressive and has met the high bar I set for the project.

The biggest challenge right now and the question I have for you guys is the product introduction. We will unveil the production car at the 2012 SEMA show, but WHICH MODEL? Originally I conceived this chassis to serve three distinct roles. 1. Affordable Giant-slayer street car. 2. Potent Open Track weapon and 3. Build-it-yourself 65+ MPG commuter car.

Despite the fact that our TDI powered GTM continues to win Green Grand Prix races and accolades everywhere (and Simon and his team are ready to apply this technology to the 818), I've decided that we should launch the 818 in line with Factory Five's reputation for performance and chasiss competence. To me, right now it comes down to the 818R Open Track model or the 818 street model. If you look at case studies like the KTM X-Bow, the Atom, the Lotus two-eleven, etc... It seems that race versions get the lions share of the press. The truth is that we would begin selling the car in both race and street forms since the race form would really only vary in terms of the additional cage, spoilers, shocks, brakes, race stuff, etc but share the same core body shape.

My feeling is to SHOW the 818R version first and to make sure the car's performance image is set first. To establish that the performance potential of the car is above cars like Porsche Boxter/Cayman/911, the Lotus Exige/Evora, and other notable track cars including even the modified Subies and others... THAT seems to me to be the biggest priority.

Do you guys have any thoughts? I could show some renderings if you guys would like, but this is a MARKETING question for the small group who have followed the car since we announced the competition a year and 3 months ago.

Dave

IF we focus on the track car, there is no doubt that we will also have available the street version but the spotlight would shine most brightly on the 818 with a few upgraded components over the stock Subie 265 hp engine, stock brakes, street trim.

ALSO for clarity, the first street car will be a roadster with a soft top (the top will launch WITH the car at intro). The Competitioncar will be an open cockpit race version of the street car body. The High mpg car HAS to be a coupe. Other combinations can be considered, but I am personally selecting between a race version intro and a street car intro. I will also mention that Automobile Magazine's Ezra Dyer has breifly driven the chasiss for a fun article on the new McClaren using the GTM and the 818 chassis for fun value comparos...

[kabacj]

My feeling is to SHOW the 818R version first and to make sure the car's performance image is set first.

Hey Dave,

Glad to hear all is going to plan.

Agree totally with your statement above. I think you want to lead with your halo car.

Go with your gut.

John

[Sebxb]

My honest answer would be show the street version but make sure that people know that you have a track version and a high MPG version being developped at the same time.

Why the street one? Because, IMHO, it's more likely to reach a bigger crowd. Racers already know how to do a race cars with a street car. High MPG is just the street version with another drivetrain, people that are interested will undestand the car is the perfect platform for that.

I am very interested myself with the 818 because it's the lowest priced VS high performance car I've seen that I can actually build and drive on a regular basis which is probably also your biggest crowd. I'm 31 and been dreaming of building a Cobra with my father since I was 5! But the price and limited use that comes with it (put the GTM in the same category) always prevented me from biting the bullet.

Now I see the 818 and I can clearly see myself building one of those and actually using it regularly cause it won't be too hard on gas and not too high priced to build. Now I can really see myself, my father and now my two kids building that car! (getting emotional here...)

Again, this is just my opinion... my perception of the 818 is that it's at last an affordable, not too picky, high-performance car I can actually use most of the year. I'm the average worker, father, limited budget kind of guy which I truly believe will be the main crowd for the 818.

My 2 cents!

Oh and thank you for the update Dave!!

[DARKPT]

I think it's really cool that you asked this question. Were I in your shoes I'd roll out the street version first, and my first year of advertising would focus on the reasons to buy it:

0-60 estimate
Expected total build cost
no painting needed
estimated time to build just n% of your very popular roadster (for folks who know of the roadster kit but can't commit that much time to a build)
Mention the donor platform (to draw in the three people left in that crowd who don't know you're working on this)
Mention the date you'll start taking orders
Show a picture or two
Link to an online brochure for more info

If I saw a quarter-page ad with that information somewhere, I'd have to take a look!

Racing definitely makes these cars even cooler, but most of your products will be on the street.

[shim2]

Also glad to hear everything is going well. I have to agree that it would be best to lead with the 818R as the flagship model of the 818 line. I think that would be the best decision from a marketing standpoint. To show it's true potential and offer milder versions, that reaches a much more vast audience. IMO if you were to start with the 818 as a budget build it would turn a lot of people away looking for top of the line performance but at a lower cost in kit car form.

As far as releasing, I think you have it right starting off with the roadster even if you show the race version first. Or you could just show off all versions at the same time.

[SkiRideDrive]

Thanks for the update. As for the marketing approach, I believe the more race oriented version will probably have more initial impact and engage the crowd emotionally. You will certainly mention the affordability of the street version while also being able to boast about the performance capabilities of the race version. I think most auto companies tend to push the high performance models in advertising, getting people super interested and then many buyers will choose to go the more economical route after some more thought. Either way best of luck and I am very excited to both see the body shape you guys have come up with and perhaps hear some updates/see some video of the dynamic testing of the go kart.

[shim2]

I could show some renderings if you guys would like

Yes please.

[thestigwins]

I agree with showing off the 818R. The race version will show what it is capable of and to me it's best to show off your highest performance machine. I'll be at sema and can't wait to see all of the Factory Five cars.

I second the yes on wanting to see a rendering.

[Gummy]

Please show the renderings, looking forward to the barrage of comments and opinions on them.

I do agree that showing the 818R first is a good idea. As SkiRideDrive said, most buyers end up going for the more economical route after seeing the high-performance version (they won't need a rollcage in their most circumstances while driving on the streets), but do emphasize the fact that a street version is also available (sans rollcage and other non-value added items in the eyes of the non-racer) and that a high-MPG version is also on the way.

[Dave Smith]

Johnny Kab! Thanks and hoping to see the GTM for SEMA perhaps?

Guys, Thanks for the feedback.

I do have some body images that are direct from the mold making CAD files so they are EXACTLY what the body IS currently. The Street car vs. Race car question is super important because I think the first image of this car will be burned into peoples minds and set the "idea" of the car. The kit price, cost to complete, engineering and buildability, use of donor parts, fact that it can be left or right-hand drive, etc etc ALL these FEATURES of the car will be pleasant surprises as a person looks at the car more closely, but all these things are truly FEATURES of the car, not the IDEA of the car. The car is the LOOKS and IDEA of the car first. The execution of the design goals are just as important, but not the first in order. The car has to inspire people from the very first "what the heck is that!?" look. The car HAS to lead in performance and the looks have to shout that. That's why I am leaning towards the 818R version as an initial unveil car because, like many competition themed cars, they leave no doubt as to their intentions and design purpose. If the car looks sorta good and the performance is sorta good we'll do sorta well with it... NOT the goal. This car is really our biggest challenge to date.

We HAVE to swing for the fences on this car. If we lead with the 818R version, it'll be easy to answer the very next question of "can I drive it on the street" with a street car with no wing, no cage, carpets and wearing plates in the parking lot... that'll be right after the guy finished gently tamping out the flames that had just burst out on top of his melon. I think an image will help. Perhaps the hardcore GRM and FF Forum guys should see the images first before Open House. That might make it easier because I've been staring at the 818R on my office wall for a week and I can't see it objectively anymore cause I like it too much.

As far as the MPG design, I am NOT happy that the current Coupe bodies that we looked at meet the design HoF goals yet. Further there is more work to do on the powerplant side... specifically, while the TDi is being used currently in the GTM by Simon and his team, I have spoken to Ford and the Direct injected turbo eco-boost engines (especially the new 3 cyllinder and 4 cyllinder ones) are getting HUGE mileage numbers and, hey, we like Ford! I have decided that the hi mpg model will need more engineering and will not be released first, leaving the other two variants that I posed the question on.

[PhyrraM]

By 'Officially Shown" I'm assuming you mean an actual car? If so, it doesn't matter which is officially shown first.

Have a completed car and show the artwork for the other.

If your talking all renderings, then show both - especially if they are the same base styling.

I would, personally, prefer to see the street car (and then 'scale up' to the 818R).

[leetfade]

I think you've answered your own question.

You are going to get a good feeler on here but it will be split, for the most part. The questions you have to answer are: "What message are you trying to send?", "What is the target audience?", "Who HAS to be excited by this unveiling?" It sounds like you have your sites set on decimating the performance cars for a fraction of the price and that is your target audience for the unveil. If that's the case, the 818R is the answer.

You are going to reach a broader audience with the street version but the magnitude of the reaction will be smaller, just on a larger curve. With the 818R, you will still get a positive reaction from a large curve, but the peaks will be higher for those performance minded enthusiasts. Isn't that really what SEMA is about, for the most part, performance?

I hope that makes sense... I wrote it pretty fast and don't have a lot of proof-reading time. ;-)

Either way, I am looking forward to seeing it at SEMA and hopefully stealing a few minutes from you to talk about it and get your opinion on some plans I have for it.

[Xusia]

As much as I hate to admit it, I think leading with the track car is probably best for the overall success of the project. BUT, why not unveil both the track car AND the street car at the same time? That would let people see what they want (those interested in track performance would see that; those interested in a daily driver that's easy to build would see that). Just a thought...

Oh, and PLEASE show some renderings. I'm on the edge of my seat here! And if I may, can you indulge me by answering one question: Will the the first street version - the affordable roadster - have roll up windows to complement the soft top?

[Dave Smith]

I'll release the image or images by the end of the week. i want to talk to Tim at Grassroots motorsports magazine about his forum at the same time. I do value the feedback tremendously and have tried to go from a stage where we gathered (and asked for) alot of feedback, to now a more focused stage where we gather feedback at nodes and focus on keeping the project on track and not getting sidetracked. I'll have SOMETHING posted by end of the week. We were already putting together video logs of development testing and CAD files for the Open House, but this question is bugging me (race or street intro) and I wanted your valuable thoughts.

as far as soft top, it will have soft top side windows. I wanted roll ups but the tech and time to do that is excessive while ANYONE who owns the new Mk4 and Hot rod tops (by Dave Draper) can attest to their great weather sealing. So it will be a soft top with zipper-in side windows. Final. I can see a roll up window in the future as an add/upgrade, but not at launch.

[Sebxb]

As much as I hate to admit it, I think leading with the track car is probably best for the overall success of the project. BUT, why not unveil both the track car AND the street car at the same time? That would let people see what they want (those interested in track performance would see that; those interested in a daily driver that's easy to build would see that). Just a thought...

Oh, and PLEASE show some renderings. I'm on the edge of my seat here! And if I may, can you indulge me by answering one question: Will the the first street version - the affordable roadster - have roll up windows to complement the soft top?

I agree with that! The race car will have the best impact at a show but make sure once people stop dreaming of the race car, that the street car is right there and readily available!

[Nuul]

Bummer, so both of them are open top at release. I was really hoping the R type was a coupe. It sounds like the high MPG is the body style I want but it won't be compatible with my donor. So, is there a 4th option of coupe with WRX engine?

[wallace18]

I think the 818R will be better for Press and first showing. Is there any thought of releasing more of what is needed from the donor? Thanks for the news. I am waiting to buy ASAP.

[vozproto]

I think the first question you have to answer is - WHO IS YOUR AUDIENCE?
Then pick a few cars that are similar in concept and market focus and that may provide your answer.

I get the performance intro. The question is... does the performance model of cars sell the main line, or does the main line sell the higher performance cousin.
Now for wrx vs STI I can understand that. The STI sells the WRX... but STI inherently offers more power. That's what the masses drool over.

Right now we are talking track upgrades. Brakes, shocks, spoilers, roll-bar etc. Zero extra power.

The following is the opinion of a 32 year-old engineer who has raced motorcycles.

In all reality although this car is a giant slayer in any form. Your majority audience in my mind isn't the turn-key track car guy but rather the person who dreams of the opportunity to take their otherwise street car on the track. And kill it.

Here is my concern with a 818R intro:
Every so often I get a bug to look for a new fun but affordable 4-wheeled toy. If I had enough money I would have a garage full of em. But I don't. At most I can afford 1 toy in addition to my daily driver. I come across track prepped cars with wings, giant brakes and roll cages. They'd be fun as hell. But I would never buy em.

Why? Because I can only afford the cost and space for one large toy. And if that extra (guessing) $5k gets me a whole lotta performance that I will rarely use the full potential of... then I'm possibly paying more for less comfort or less convenience in normal day to day use.

So here is my thought...
It's a giant slayer to begin with. The strongest message I could imagine would be something of the sort of...
"It dominates the boxster/cayman/911 as well as the exige/evora... and that's just the daily driver model."

That said... I do think proper shocks and big brakes are sexy. Maybe offer that as a little FFR offered side upgrade on the street going model. :D

[shim2]

as far as soft top, it will have soft top side windows. I wanted roll ups but the tech and time to do that is excessive while ANYONE who owns the new Mk4 and Hot rod tops (by Dave Draper) can attest to their great weather sealing. So it will be a soft top with zipper-in side windows. Final. I can see a roll up window in the future as an add/upgrade, but not at launch.

That's a bummer. Might have to wait for that upgrade, not too fond of zipper in windows. Hopefully a coupe won't be too far down the road from launch and will have roll up windows.

[OCCPete]

I agree with voz - if your primary seller is going to be the street car, then show the street car first. I think showing a track car with no interior will tend to turn guys off who want a nicely appointed street car. Even better - use the Lotus approach and show a hybrid of the two, track car with the street car interior.

JMHO,
Pete

[Aardon]

Im new to this forum, but Ive been following Factory Five for a long time. I was going to do a GTM when they first came out but life got in the way. I'm to the point again where I'm starting to plan and I can tell you for me it was the 818R image on the main site that has gotten me totally hooked again. Everyone I show that to wants it to be the one I build. It gets people excited. The street body above it is ok but doesn't hook people like a racer. I also think it will be easier for people to accept the racer with an empty or sparce interior. The street car only people are going to be more picky about the interior so I would be less inclined to show that if the interior isnt dine.

I realize those aren't the final designs but its the reactions I've seen so far.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Dave,
I'm thinking the street car should be the first unveil, albeit with lots of hype and images about the R version set to follow closely on its heels. I believe the street version is gonna' be the bread & butter...think Roadster vs. Challenge Car split. Racers have no problem visualizing what it takes to turn a street car into a race car (heck, that's how a couple of buddies and I hatched the goofy idea of turning a tired old Fiero into a Chump Car :rolleyes:) but I'm not so sure it always works the other way. While the SEMA audience includes a lot of hard core racers I think the crowd is more predominantly street performance oriented. They're the ones who need to be stoked to help intensify the buzz.

Here's wishing you nothin' but luck Man!

Jeff

[apexanimal]

818r at launch...

getting the press and people excited about the project will help overall success...


getting re-excited about this myself now... ;)

[Mike N]

The track car is what will sell me, out of all the designs shown to date the ones that really grab me have been the track oriented ones. It should be your flagship model. Now having said that I would not buy a track only version it would have to be street legal (or be made street legal) and be somewhat usable on a daily basis. My roadster does more track miles than street miles but I still love to drive it on the street. Also as noted above I was really hoping for a hardtop track version. Will an open top to hardtop upgrade be possible with the current body mold concept, that would be very big selling point for me.

So what is your vision for the track version versus the street version? If they are basically the same package but with 'options' for the track version then market the HoF track version and list the options shown over the 'base' street version. I'll bet that a lot of street car people will want the race car look, wing, splitter, etc and will happily pay for those options but may not be interested in the brake, shock, race seat, cage etc package.

Bottom line is that if you want to get people excited focus on the track version but make sure that it is clear in your supporting information how it is different to the street version. I think people expect the top of the line version to be the one that is shown that's what the major Auto manufacturers do, think Camaro (ZL1), Mustang (Shelby) etc.

[PhyrraM]

Thinking again....I know...dangerous.

I wonder how much the 'let down factor' can deflate hype? If you introduce (visually) something where the whole car is basically upgraded from the anticipated $10,000 kit (seats, wheels, spoilers, etc), and then at a later date release the 'how it really is' photos, what does that do for real-world sales?

I think a build, or rendering, of a base kit is important to have around at release. It's been a long time, and I was admittedly younger, but I seem to remember seeing both types of builds/images in FFRs original "single donor" advertizements.

[Duratec7]

I'd go with the street car first. Anyone who races can easily envision the race version of a street car, not always the other way around. The HOF appeal with the finish of a street car, and performace that will come out of this car will sell.

[scartaan]

Dave- I'm a little confused, will the car you "show" be the first car in production? If so, you should expect volume sales to be proportional to the MK4 vs your spec racer. I agree with Voz, You could go with the 818R at SEMA, but I would go with the 818 street for first production. The market for a non-streetable race has to be fairly small. Most folks on the forum want a Targa type car.

[ncmcn]

Agreed on the 818R being the first car. It is Factory Five Racing, after all! Can't wait for the images!

[riptide motorsport]

818R first................remember the old slogan...............Win on Sunday, sell on Monday

I feel like Xmass, I can't wait to see the body!!!

[shim2]

Dave- I'm a little confused, will the car you "show" be the first car in production? If so, you should expect volume sales to be proportional to the MK4 vs your spec racer. I agree with Voz, You could go with the 818R at SEMA, but I would go with the 818 street for first production. The market for a non-streetable race has to be fairly small. Most folks on the forum want a Targa type car.

From my interpretation of reading the first post, they're going to release both the roadster than the 818R at the same time. He's asking which one they should show at SEMA.

[metalmaker12]

From my interpretation of reading the first post, they're going to release both the roadster than the 8181R at the same time. He's asking which one they should show at SEMA.

DAVE< 818R or the 818 HMMMMM, I would say the R, but i am torn lol.. decisions decisions

Love what you do, you have the best job in the world, so its your call



Thank you

[skullandbones]

I believe the "bones" of the 818 are so similar (roadster and r version) because of the drive train, that the roadster will represent the r version very well. It would also stay consistent with the target of 10k. I think the potential customer will see the great value of not having to change out from a 4 link to an IRS. It's already to go. At SEMA, it might add hype value to the project by showing how a racer all dressed out looks but there is still that basic roadster underneath all that "go fast" stuff. Many people want to race but most don't race exclusively so having a roadster that you can do autox and track days is much more versitile than the pure race car (small market). I'd definitely go with the street version as the first launch!! Thanks for the update and looking forward to the renderings. WEK.

[jcdennis]

I'm only passable when it comes to tinkering with my Subaru, so up until now I've not had much to contribute that others with much better knowledge didn't already comment on with better/more detailed information.

However I am in marketing... so I wouldn't feel right without at least throwing my two cents in here.

Based on what we know now (could change after we see renderings etc) I feel you have to go with the race version, with great pictures of the road version on display.

This would accomplish a couple of things.

1. People who can closely inspect the physical car will be very forgiving of any "unrefined" qualities of the car (zippered windows, sparse interior etc).
2. Showcase some of the aftermarket product (brakes, suspension, etc) without misleading anyone about what will come "standard".
3. Provide the best performance numbers/feel for any tests of the car, which is what everyone will be reporting.

There's obviously a lot more to consider, but from the outside looking in, with the information we have on hand at present, that's what I'd suggest.

[1fastsedan]

I'm only passable when it comes to tinkering with my Subaru, so up until now I've not had much to contribute that others with much better knowledge didn't already comment on with better/more detailed information.

However I am in marketing... so I wouldn't feel right without at least throwing my two cents in here.

Based on what we know now (could change after we see renderings etc) I feel you have to go with the race version, with great pictures of the road version on display.

This would accomplish a couple of things.

1. People who can closely inspect the physical car will be very forgiving of any "unrefined" qualities of the car (zippered windows, sparse interior etc).
2. Showcase some of the aftermarket product (brakes, suspension, etc) without misleading anyone about what will come "standard".
3. Provide the best performance numbers/feel for any tests of the car, which is what everyone will be reporting.

There's obviously a lot more to consider, but from the outside looking in, with the information we have on hand at present, that's what I'd suggest.
x2 - only I was thinking the race car in the flesh and a video with spinning 3D renderings of the street version behind it.

SEMA is about the aftermarket and performance...so show them what you can do. For the lay person, they need to be emotionally invested in those first images, so use the lower, more aerodynamic "convertible" with awesome wheels, tires, brakes etc. and get them invested. If they want to go all in, they can certainly upgrade the street kit (a lot of us already do). You should always showcase the best of what you offer, and then let the consumer decide how much they want to spend on which kit, model, and upgrades.

Plus, if those upgraded brake, wheel, and tire offerings are from your supporting vendors...coming out with the upgraded race version helps them get some additional exposure too.

[Oppenheimer]

My second thought was 'both' (my first thought was 'Milk Crate'?)

But since you probably can't do both, I would show the 818R (even if first to production will be street), but show the rendering of the street version (as a few others have already suggested). My reasons:

- bottom line = performance: establish the potential, cement that in peoples brains from the start (message = you can build your street version this fast, if you really want)

- street = press will want to compare to other street cars: this just invites critizism (by press) of any perceived shortcomings: if the no-paint isn't perfect on day 1 (which for racer would not be issue), if the interior isn't as plush as some production car, the zip in windows, etc

Unveil the R, but show what the street will look like. This will cause press focus to be all about performance, but that a street version will also be avail, and all they will have to report about for street is HoF looks. Then later when press finally gets hands on street version, and does inevitable comparison article with real production cars, it will be easier to forgive street 'shortcomings' by focusing on street legal racecar aspect.

You want the car to win all the initial mag comparo's they do. Those comparo's are always based on the 'focus' of the compare. Recent Motor Trend article, BRZ won, even though 3 other cars beat its raw performance numbers, since the compare was 'most fun'. If you release the 818R, the compares will be to other track cars, and for the $, it will dominate. If you release the street car, it will invite street compares, and they could weight 'convenience' over performance, and it could lose badly. Not what you want to see on day 1.

[shim2]

I personally think a lot of people who wanted a nice DD/Track Car will be mildly let down by the lack of roll up windows at launch.

[Gary in NJ]

Dave,

Marketing answer: What percentage do you feel will purchase the street version or track version? Go with the wider audience.

Car guy answer: The average consumer that looks at street car understands what its purpose is. The track guy looks at that car and thinks how he can improve that car for a track purpose. The same average street car customer looks a track-only car and QUICKLY looses interest because he has no use for the car.

I vote street car because it addresses both audiences, one (street guy) directly and the other (track guy) indirectly.

[Nuul]

I personally think a lot of people who wanted a nice DD/Track Car will be mildly let down by the lack of roll up windows at launch.

Exactly, I wanted a car I can DD and take to the track on the weekend if I feel like it. Open tops aren't practical for that.

[shim2]

Exactly, I wanted a car I can DD and take to the track on the weekend if I feel like it. Open tops aren't practical for that.

I'm actually pretty let down by that announcement. Next question would be how difficult is it or would it be for us to implement our own roll up windows if we choose to still buy the roadster at launch?

[jcdennis]

One quick point - to counter the argument of marketing what's going to sell the most volume.

"New" Mustang (2010 I think - if it's 2011 - my bad):

37000 v6 sold
26000 V8 GT sold
5000 GT500 sold

When they showed it off, it wasn't often the v6 in the spotlight....

[DrieStone]

I was going to say 818R, let the racers help fine tune any issues and details so those of us who want the road car will have an easier time, but I read Phyrra's comment and I have to agree that you have to watch out for that. Part of the goal of the 818 has also been that $15k target. If you show a $35k track car, get everyone excited about it, then show the $15k car it might hurt.

In the software industry you can always add features, but if you remove them, you're in for a world of hurt.

In the end I have to say that you should show the street car, then show the race version after. No one will be disappointed in the street car, and the race one will allow you to do a whole other round of "press" (where the street car probably won't be worth that much press once the race car is out).

Seems to me that you're going to have the happiest customers, and the best marketing push if you release the $15k car first, and the race version second.

Just my 2 cents.

[David Hodgkins]

Dave, could you have both done by SEMA?

I have two words for you: Build party.

Seriously, line up a trusted Beta Builder and let his team build it at FFR. Then you take it to SEMA and say your customers built it.

:)

EDIT: ...or line up several Betas and REALLY throw some build parties at FFR!

[Dave Smith]

Oppie: Milk Crate = I've been away from the forum so long I was put on a milk carton (I should've said Milk carton)

Dave: ARGH!!! I owe you a call brother! Ive seriously considered building 2 cars for SEMA but that would take resources away from the production start up efforts (even managing a beta in-house takes time to do right) and unlike most "kit car" companies, the launch plan is very well concieved, timed, resourced and being implemented on time with the product testing, beta builds, and operations set-up and training complete wayyyy before any orders are taken or wild claims are made... The addition of another car for SEMA means I have to go back and reconfigure the plan. I'm not saying no to a build party, but at this point it wasnt in the plan.

Guys: THANKS for the great feedback. I'm going to seriously stew on it and get some releases for you guys by weeks end. I think you guys deserve a peek at something before open house.

[apexanimal]

Guys: THANKS for the great feedback. I'm going to seriously stew on it and get some releases for you guys by weeks end. I think you guys deserve a peek at something before open house.

can't argue with that :)

[D2W]

We all definately deserve a peek asap:) If at all possible I think you should roll out both. Roll out the Street car (10K + WRX = 15K of fun) and right behind it have an 818R (slammed to the ground, spoilers, brakes, upgraded engine, ect.) Show everyone not familiar with the car your swatch watch mentality.

[Stickshift84]

Thanks for the update!!! I can't wait for more

I would have to agree with your thoughts on this and vote for the 818R to be shown first. I think it will have the biggest impact. I am curious as to what chassis changes exist for the race version and if all the original goals stay the same... sub $10,000 price and sub 1800 lb weight?

I plan on ordering as soon as available and do not have an opinion yet (until I see the differences) on which version I prefer. As long at it has an open top and can be made street legal at launch, I will be happy.

[RossLH]

One quick point - to counter the argument of marketing what's going to sell the most volume.

"New" Mustang (2010 I think - if it's 2011 - my bad):

37000 v6 sold
26000 V8 GT sold
5000 GT500 sold

When they showed it off, it wasn't often the v6 in the spotlight....

Its a classic marketing move. Show a potential customer the best, most expensive option to get them interested, then take some options away and make the price more reasonable to land the sale. I say show the fastest, most awesome car you have, and if people show concern about the price, let them know there are less pricey options available.

[unclebigbad]

I got here late (for this thread), but, "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" is true, I got interested in FFR because of racing, its in the name for goodness sake. What gets customers into the showroom is the flash and what sells is the value. And value dose not mean cost.

[Evan78]

Dave - can you tell us what the major differences are between the street and race versions? We can all speculate, but perhaps some clarity will allow better feedback.

My simple answer - If you can only build one car, throw everything at it. Use the best looking exterior and best (street) interior.

Everyone that doesn't attend SEMA and is unfamiliar with FFR is going to be turned on/off by whatever press coverage they read. I'm assuming the track/race version is going to have a better looking exterior, so I would use that AND with the best interior possible. This is what many SEMA cars look like, however unlikely or impractical they may be in the real world. As previously mentioned, every race guy can look at a car and imagine what he doesn't need in there, but seeing a bare bones interior does nothing for someone looking for a street car. Plus, the reputation for kit cars is that they have poor fit and finish, this is an opportunity to prove otherwise.

[slopoke]

I'm partial to the "wolf in sheeps cothing" approach ... do the street car with some performance upgrades to show off some of its potential. It should have the same effect as a shapely gal showing a bit of cleavage ... or show street and track bodies at SEMA and the go-kart to get your swatch watch idea firmly planted. Yes, please post some rendering if you can so we have an idea what to put on the T-shirts. Nothing like a litte advance marketing. What can we do to help? .... and Dave .... thanks for the opportunity for all of us on this forum to throw around our ideas, no matter how harebrained they might be.

[shim2]

Dave - can you tell us what the major differences are between the street and race versions? We can all speculate, but perhaps some clarity will allow better feedback.

My simple answer - If you can only build one car, throw everything at it. Use the best looking exterior and best (street) interior.

Everyone that doesn't attend SEMA and is unfamiliar with FFR is going to be turned on/off by whatever press coverage they read. I'm assuming the track/race version is going to have a better looking exterior, so I would use that AND with the best interior possible. This is what many SEMA cars look like, however unlikely or impractical they may be in the real world. As previously mentioned, every race guy can look at a car and imagine what he doesn't need in there, but seeing a bare bones interior does nothing for someone looking for a street car. Plus, the reputation for kit cars is that they have poor fit and finish, this is an opportunity to prove otherwise.

From his first post.....


The truth is that we would begin selling the car in both race and street forms since the race form would really only vary in terms of the additional cage, spoilers, shocks, brakes, race stuff, etc but share the same core body shape.

[cmcintyre]

The 818R.

As a guy who just TODAY broke ground on the shop to build an FFR, I think it's important to remember that if we've come to this forum, at some level we have decided to, or are open to, a unique way to get the car we want.

I'm a road racer (Spec E30) and it was bringing that car up to being a race car that made me look at making or assembling what I wanted. I think most racers or track junkies are ready to make the leap to the build to for the right car. It's might be a larger jump for a street or classic car driver.

If you do go 818R, I would think it would be a big shot in the arm if you have NASA on board with a Race Series for it. You'd have an instant fanatical group, albeit small. They will make your rep for you, open the eyes of performance street drivers to the possibilities and by then you'd have the street version available and the rest would be history....

[Xusia]

What would be REALLY neat is to have 1 car with 2 bodies, and show off how easy it is to change from one to other! That would also show how versatile it is (swatch watch idea), and how they are really the same car (meaning, you could drive the track car on the street, or the street car on the track)...

[shim2]

what would be really neat is to have 1 car with 2 bodies, and show off how easy it is to change from one to other! That would also show how versatile it is (swatch watch idea), and how they are really the same car (meaning, you could drive the track car on the street, or the street car on the track)...

this!

[Flamshackle]

Based on what we know now (could change after we see renderings etc) I feel you have to go with the race version, with great pictures of the road version on display.

This would accomplish a couple of things.

1. People who can closely inspect the physical car will be very forgiving of any "unrefined" qualities of the car (zippered windows, sparse interior etc).
2. Showcase some of the aftermarket product (brakes, suspension, etc) without misleading anyone about what will come "standard".
3. Provide the best performance numbers/feel for any tests of the car, which is what everyone will be reporting.

There's obviously a lot more to consider, but from the outside looking in, with the information we have on hand at present, that's what I'd suggest.

This^^^

Good 818R on display with grea imagery of the road car then producing the road car first. The hot looking racer will help the production car sell.

PS the old saying posted earlier "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" can't possibly apply to a race car that hasn't raced yet.

[PhyrraM]

"New" Mustang (2010 I think - if it's 2011 - my bad):

37000 v6 sold
26000 V8 GT sold
5000 GT500 sold

When they showed it off, it wasn't often the v6 in the spotlight....

From what I have seen, almost all the 'mass market' advertizing featured the V6 (300HP+30MPG), leaving the specialty magazines and smaller outlets (like GRM and 5.0 Tech, etc) to advertize the V8.

[Mechie3]

I was thinking you should show off the road version, but have the cage, body, wings, etc for the race version mounted on racks behind the car. SEMA is about going overboard, race-looking designs, who can be crazier than the next. Having the race "accessories" for viewing lets you show off the top model, while also allowing a more refined model for the complete product. No matter what you do, people will complain, etc, but having a more refined interior is probably for the best.

Also, if you need Beta builders, I might be glad to help. ;) I just a complete frame up rebuild of a Formula 400 open wheel car. Oh....and a lady ran a red light last night and wrecked my car so I think I found my donor too. Lemons...lemonade.

[Evan78]

From his first post.....Thanks shim, I've reread Dave's post now and tried to eliminate everything that doesn't apply to my question:


the race form would really only vary in terms of the additional cage, spoilers, shocks, brakes, race stuff, etc but share the same core body shape.

IF we focus on the track car, there is no doubt that we will also have available the street version but the spotlight would shine most brightly on the 818 with a few upgraded components over the stock Subie 265 hp engine, stock brakes, street trim.

ALSO for clarity, the first street car will be a roadster with a soft top (the top will launch WITH the car at intro). The Competitioncar will be an open cockpit race version of the street car body.

From Dave's post, here's what I get for a the race version:

additional cage
spoilers
shocks
brakes
race stuff
open cockpit

Does open cockpit mean no windshield?

Perhaps the cage can be marked to indicate what part is standard and what is part of the race version. Either different colors, labels, a small band on each bar, etc.

[el_jefe]

Remember what SEMA is: Specialty Equipment Market Association. The party where everyone brings out all the toys. It's not the car show where the auto manufactureres let the public sit in production cars, it's where the aftermarket sez "check this **** out!"

So it has to be the 818R, with all the bells and whistles so Factory Five can not only show off their chops, but the other companies that put in work on suspension, drivetrain, wheels, ect can too. Not only will it catch the eye of the media, but other aftermarket vendors who might want to jump on board.

Remember, the public isn't really at SEMA, it's the media and vendors only. So you have to impress them first in order to get it out to the public.

So a sick 818R on racing slicks with a big turbo swap in the center of the booth, and some clean renderings of the street version in the background. That's the way to go.

[Evan78]

el_jefe - I don't disagree that SEMA is the place to go big, but consideration should be given to the fact that while the general public does not attend, they consume print and video coverage of the products shown there. Your audience goes beyond just the physical attendees.

[shim2]

Remember what SEMA is: Specialty Equipment Market Association. The party where everyone brings out all the toys. It's not the car show where the auto manufactureres let the public sit in production cars, it's where the aftermarket sez "check this **** out!"

So it has to be the 818R, with all the bells and whistles so Factory Five can not only show off their chops, but the other companies that put in work on suspension, drivetrain, wheels, ect can too. Not only will it catch the eye of the media, but other aftermarket vendors who might want to jump on board.

Remember, the public isn't really at SEMA, it's the media and vendors only. So you have to impress them first in order to get it out to the public.

So a sick 818R on racing slicks with a big turbo swap in the center of the booth, and some clean renderings of the street version in the background. That's the way to go.

I think you got it perfect.

[Nuul]

So a sick 818R on racing slicks with a big turbo swap in the center of the booth, and some clean renderings of the street version in the background. That's the way to go.

I'll one up you there and say get one of the 2.34 engines from MPS for the SEMA show. The lower torque will help keep the power to the ground and the high rpm power will really scream. A 9k rev limit coupled with an 818-R is a recipe for big smiles. I really wish it wasn't out of my price range or I'd have ordered it already.

[ScottKoschwitz]

Do you guys have any thoughts?



I had to chuckle when I read this. You have been on this forum before, right? ;)

At first I thought you should go with the street version, but your logic to show the R first persuaded me. It would be entirely consistent with the SEMA show, it makes a bigger splash, and it establishes a halo car. I believe you should have at least a rendering of the street car as well, stressing the low price-point, street legality, and the fact that it has 90% (95%?) of the performance potential of the R.

[NonProfit]

Whatever you go with, I believe managing expectations is critical.

I have been wanting a car like this for a long time. When I came to know about it I read it to be "$10K for the kit + a donor + $5K in misc. parts". Then I understood the five was to purchase the donor. WOW! Then I started looking and have yet to see a WRX for that cost. So, this will still cost less than my initial expectation, but had I understood the project to be "$10K + donor" that would have been a different experience.

I'd be clear to manage expectations:
• How will the 818, 818-R and 818-HM differ? (Price, performance, appearance, release date.)
• My styling preference is what I consider "upscale performance" (think Lotus Elise). I know many people who build their own cars want extreme styling (Lamborghini or beyond). Will there be more than three body styles? Will any of the parts mix and match Swatch-style? A choice of several front end treatments could dramatically increase the market for this car.
• It is known there will be available suspension and brake upgrades. What is the cost and will other options be available?
• A soft top with zip-in windows will be standard at launch. Are glass windows coming? At what cost? Will they fit in the early cars?
• There has been a lot of forum interest in a targa top. Will that ever be an option & can it be retrofitted?
• A master parts list would be golden! I'm completely new to Subaru's engines, but from the forums it's clear that more than just '02-'07 will fit. But exactly what will is still a mystery (at least to me.)
• Not SEMA related, but it would help manage expectations if you would solicit questions from the community and releasing one answer video a week.

I've always considered myself a car guy but it's been a long time since I've been this interested in anything automotive. Thanks!

[willboss]

So Dave, if you are tempted to "build" 2 cars, why not introduce the 2 cars at the same time, even if you can't build both. Maybe I'm thinking too big, but if you start with a covered, "built" car with 2 screens behind it. On the screens you start with a Presentation about the project, then introduce the Street version, virtually. Build up in the Presentation, then pull the covers off the "R" version. This is SEMA after all, and all the press at SEMA will be drawn to the R version, but you'll still be able to get coverage of the Street version too.

[Scott L]

For SEMA it would have to be a balls to the wall 818R. The "tip of the spear".

[Kalstar]

Depends what they look like, my gut says the street version. Th spec racer is very "bare". I would think making the interior as production as possible would be a "need". Maybe a hybrid of the street and race. The 818r but with street lights and interior.

[bobzdar]

I cannot think of a car intro that had the racing version first. Get people excited with the street version and let them know it's a real street car, then push them over the top with the r version where they see what the car can become. I'm more interested in the r version but I think the street version will get people excited and provide a good buildup to the r version so makes more sense from a marketing perspective. Looking at halo sports car releases in recent years, the street version always comes first with the r version sometimes years later (porsche 918) or a couple of days later (viper).

[RM1SepEx]

Wow, I step away from the computer... work on one of my bikes all afternoon...

Show renderings soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You need to somehow show both! Who knows what will generate the most buzz, we do know that the volume is in the street roadster... somehow showing the way the two are related to each other, it is important to show how complete the car is as a $9995 kit, buildable for $15,000, can you show both?

If I could only bring one it would be the street version with a rendering, a stack of parts added, parts deleted, and pricing to get an "R" model (interior delete, race seat add, spoiler add etc..-)

Factory 5's bread and butter is a single donor roadster, the track models sell far fewer cars. The performance of the standard, stock WRX, single donor build will absolutely floor people.

I'm personally up for a street model with adjustable "R" model shocks and a top.

The top as described is all that I need, something in case it rains so my leather seats don't get wet!

Now to figure out where my donor is... delivery is now a day late!

And my donor is avail, I'll volunteer it for a quick build for SEMA

[shinn497]

From a marketing perspective, this is still a no brainer. Racer first generate the buzz and the spread the word. I think word of mouth will be big and a racer will do just that. It is kind of a bait and switch but consider the following:

The street version won't be too gimped in a lot of areas. The thing is getting koni shocks, 818kg, and a 230 hp engine no matter what.

The street version would be cheaper and that is a plus. I actually think a lot of people, not in the know, will mistake this for a more expensive car. They will be pleasantly surprised by the street version.

The street version would be more livable and legal and that will matter to a lot of people. If people saw a track version, they would probably ask about a street model anyway.

Think about this from a business perspective. It is more important to spread buzz, and as long as you don't lie, it isn't unethical to.

BY THE WAY THANKYOU DAVE FOR BEING ACTIVE YAYSAUCE!

[Evan78]

I'll put my thoughts another way - build an awesome version of the street car. If it looks awesome and appears streetable, that will result in the most excitement and attention. Car enthusiasts dream of the ultimate street car a lot more than the ultimate track car.

[JBrown88]

I understand the reasoning for showing the street version 818. I agree with people saying 818R though.

Like shinn said, it's about buzz. You have to get people talking, and to get people talking, you have to stand out. While the street version does stand out, the 818R will stand out more. Will everyone want to buy that version? No. Will everyone like and talk about the race version? Definitely. I mean, I have no plans to get the 818R, but I'd still think it'd be cool to see.

In a perfect world, both would be shown. But the plan (from what Dave has said) is to show one. So have the race version to grab people's attention, and then talk up all the different versions as much as you can.

[SkiRideDrive]

I think a big sign with total build cost will really get everyone talking.

[imom]

The old adage "Race on Sunday, sell on Monday" isn't going to work if you only have the track version. In the old days, the race cars were the marketing engine (no pun intended) to push sales of cars. People see a race car win and then buy the production version. So if only an 818R exist without a street version... then it's only for the niche market of track cars only.

If FF5's main business in the past has been only track cars then this makes sense. If this is for breaking into commercial arena and younger crowd... it's going to be daily drivers that will occasionally time track their cars.

Personally I'm pushing for the coupe and probably in the minority, but guess it will delay my choice of getting an 818 coupe later than sooner. With track car only ready, I guess I'll wait until until all the bugs are worked out then and look forward to the production version of the street coupe.

Highly encourage some build parties to have both an 818R and street version 818 even if it's a targa or soft top. Easy to say, hard to do with limited resources... thank you for asking us.

[shinn497]

@imom

According to Dave's post, both versions will be launching. I don't think you have to worry about the 818R being the only model.

[jimgood]

By launching the 818R first maybe you can bring back the old NASCAR credo: Race on Sunday. Sell on Monday.

[GS guy]

Definitely FULL Race car on the floor. Slicks, lightweight wheels, ultra low, blow your mind vehicle. BUT - the backdrop is a 1/2-3/4 scale full color high quality picture of the street version, a huge wall hanging behind the racer sitting out front. The intention will be clear, and images firmly burned into memory. Can't wait to see the body design!

[Mechie3]

Will the "R" accesories be available individually for those that want a hopped up street version 818, or will the 818R itself be streetable? If I'm going through all the time and effort to build an 818, I'd want it to look like an exotic (or semi exotic) like a Lambo or Lotus. If it looks like a rear engined plain jane miata, it's kind of a let down to me. I love the white rendering that is on the landing page for the 818. I'd love something that looks like the white car, but is still streetable.

[Cobradavid]

Dave,

I've never been to SEMA in person. But from the press coverage I've seen, the cars at SEMA are the most tricked-out versions, not the high-volume, base models.

Having the track version there should get the most attention. That will suck people in. Having renderings and information on all three versions (especially, the street and high mileage versions) will show off Factory Five's design and engineering prowess and will demonstrate your intentions with the 818 model line.

You probably know this, but make sure the car you display has an eye-popping paint job (one that will make flames burst out on top of people's melons!). Also, make sure everyone knows that the car you display is not a one-off concept car, but the top trim level of a production car going on sale soon.

David

[kach22i]

My feeling is to SHOW the 818R version first and to make sure the car's performance image is set first. To establish that the performance potential of the car is above cars like Porsche Boxter/Cayman/911, the Lotus Exige/Evora, and other notable track cars including even the modified Subies and others... THAT seems to me to be the biggest priority.
You have provided your own answer here.

Track car first.

Besides, if there are any rough, crude or unsophisticated details and or issues/finishes with the prototype, it will be much easier to forgive on a "track car" than on something allegedly ready for the street.

[apexanimal]

the other option would be a full decked-out street version... beefed-up engine with the race brakes and suspension, etc etc... but with the street body and maybe some aero tweaks as well...

[David Budd]

Dave-- Introduce the street car. Have accurate renderings of both the track version and the high mileage version on hand and as you move toward production phase in all three during 2013 with the street version available first, followed in a couple of months by the track version and finally by the hypermileage version. I suspect you are going to be overwhelmed by orders for the street version, including mine.

[Silvertop]

Selfishly, I'd rather see the street version shown first, since it is what I am going to build. However, if we are interpreting correctly that we are talking specifically about which car you will lead with at the SEMA show, but not necessarily which car you will launch into production first, it doesn't really matter much. It sounds to me that the Roadster and the track car may both be available to purchase from the git-go. Can you clarify that?.

The track car will be sexier, and may draw bigger crowds at SEMA. The street version will be your bread and butter for sales. So it is easy to justify either choice. It's your party. Go with your heart. But do let us see both versions -- at least in renderings. That will be enough for me to make my decision to start shopping in earnest for my donor. Here's hoping that you can come through at least with renderings of both versions at your June 9 Open House, and that those renderings will also be available on the FFR website.

Perhaps you will also be able to clarify at the Open House whether or not the roadster also may be fitted with a Targa Top at some future point, and if it will be able to be retro-fitted to the earliest cars.

I'm excited. Can't wait for the Open House. Wish I could be there.

[Dave Smith]

GREAT GREAT feedback! Thought about this all night. Especially cause the guys brought back some really amazing track videos in-car with like 4 different go-pros on the car (raced sans body in high speed autocross) and the footage shows how fast the car is. The footage is exciting though becuase the car (right now 1510lbs on scales without body) is sick fast... you can just tell from the footage how hard it accels, brakes and especially turns... all this with the street car set-up, street shocks, street tires (!) and and upgraded wilwood brakes. Jim and Jesper and the guys are doing alot of baseline testing and I will post some of the driving videos here before open house. It's not surprising though because the car weighs closer to a motorcycle at this point than a car and the chassis and suspension were designed by Jim, who is a veteran of this work and understands the design goals clearly.

I can't answer all the questions, and I think I'l get some videos posted and a few images of the exact body #1 posted before making the final call... still have time as the core shapes and molds are being made still and we havent seen a production body part.

Again, THANKS for the great feedback, high quality thoughts and suggestions, and mostly for your passion in the effort. In the end it's my job and I'll make the call personally about the product launch and details supporting it. I am not negotiable on SEMA since it is THE place for aftermarket industry (like us and our community which is NOT yet mainstream)... The only chance that the SEMA intro gets knocked off it's perch is if Hewlett Packard steps up with the development story sponsorship and documentary production, but thats another story!

Again, HUGE thanks and please know that I take this effort and job very seriously and am very appreciatie of the contributions you guys have made. It is my job alone to make sure that we (FFR) DELIVER and EXECUTE on this important project and the design goals set forth. The talent and support we've got assembled on this one is impressive. Thanks.

[leetfade]

Excited for November! I really want to see those videos.. I think I'm almost more excited to see that than the body design that may or may not change. ;-)

[Oppenheimer]

One thing to keep in mind, Dave is talking about which car to show at SEMA, not which car to put into production first, not which car to market more.

Most people at SEMA are there as business people first, as car guys second (maybe a real close second). The people FFR really needs to impress here are the ones that will generate press, and generate buzz. This isn't an overall marketing strategy, its a one-time event full of industry insiders. The focus of this shouldn't be to make people want to buy an 818, but rather to make them realize how many other people are going to want to buy one. Make them see how big this will be to their industry.

PS - this comment by Dave has me thinking Xabier (with some RISD mods):

The truth is that we would begin selling the car in both race and street forms since the race form would really only vary in terms of the additional cage, spoilers, shocks, brakes, race stuff, etc but share the same core body shape.

[BipDBo]

Track version.
My recommendation is to release it with the track version but to keep it true to the design goal of being cheap. You don't want to announce the release of a kit car that can be built for $15,000 but have to say, but this car, with all of it's goodies cost $30,000. Also, it should be street legal. You don't want potential customers to have to consider having to buy a trailer and a large truck. If they get serious, they eventually will. If you can get people to dream of getting to the track for the cost of an econocar, they will respond as such:
9948

Also, I'm seeing a diminished point in having a non-track roadster at all. Let's face it, due to budget and weight restrictions the 818, at least at the release date, will not be a very refined ride. It will have a soft top, no roll up windows and probably no AC. It will essentially be a road legal track car, just without some of the track specific safety features like a cage, racing seat, harness, etc. You don't want anyone reporting on this to say, Factory Five releases an affordable road going kit car, but it doesn't look like something you would want for a daily driver. The 818 track version will be more natural, everything that you would expect from a track car.

The 818 I think will have a different, much larger audience from other kit cars. The typical kit car is an extra, toy car, that gets pulled out for a weekend drive in good weather, and doesn't log a lot of miles. The typical customer has the money and garage space for an extra toy car. The 818, however, will appeal to a lot of people, like myself, who don't have that kind of money, people whom a kit car is otherwise out of reach. A "peoples fit" if you will. I foresee a lot of 818s being used as daily drivers, which shouldn't be a problem given the longevity of Subaru engines. There was a recent article of someone logging 62,000 miles on his MK4. Subaru owners typically drive their cars well over 100,000 miles, so I'll bet 818s will log a lot of miles. I think these customers will expect at least heat and AC, and may be more attracted to the coupe. Therefore I think that the road going version should have a grand release when a little more comfort refinement is available.

[leetfade]

One thing to keep in mind, Dave is talking about which car to show at SEMA, not which car to put into production first, not which car to market more.

Most people at SEMA are there as business people first, as car guys second (maybe a real close second). The people FFR really needs to impress here are the ones that will generate press, and generate buzz. This isn't an overall marketing strategy, its a one-time event full of industry insiders. The focus of this shouldn't be to make people want to buy an 818, but rather to make them realize how many other people are going to want to buy one. Make them see how big this will be to their industry.

I somewhat agree with this. I believe your first sentence is important for people to realize, however.

Most business men / women in this industry are enthusiasts, however (hence your close second comment). Those that are at SEMA from a solely business stand point aren't likely to stop at the FFR booth because it's not something they're going to resell or manufacture parts solely for. You don't see a lot of companies making product solely for kit cars because, as Dave stated, it's not mainstream or mass produced.

Now, having said that, it is about the buzz the enthusiast side creates. I agree that the target needs to be the people that are going to circulate impressions / information regarding the grand unveiling. I also think that the overall impression will be determined by if these people would want to own one themselves.

Everyone at SEMA likes seeing supercars. Some won't like seeing their supercars upstaged by a $15k kit car but most of us will. ;-)

Either way I think it's imperative to highlight both models (even if one is just with rendering, scale models, etc) and highlight the ability to build a well-powered street car for your target price, as well as, the differentiation between the models. But, to get people in the booth, the wow factor is what does it.

[Silvertop]

PS - this comment by Dave has me thinking Xabier (with some RISD mods):

The truth is that we would begin selling the car in both race and street forms since the race form would really only vary in terms of the additional cage, spoilers, shocks, brakes, race stuff, etc but share the same core body shape.

Yes, I picked up on that too. Here's hoping!!!

[jayguy]

I know it would be a lot of work, but how about a split car, half 818R, half street car? Especially if the body is nearly identical, this would show the attendees as well as the media that the car could be on or the other, or both. Split it down the middle, include the cage (or maybe just half of it?) and show half race-prepped cockpit, half street/luxury and for sure have videos playing on a couple screens showing the car in autocross or on track.

[Oppenheimer]

I know it would be a lot of work, but how about a split car, half 818R, half street car? Especially if the body is nearly identical, this would show the attendees as well as the media that the car could be on or the other, or both. Split it down the middle, include the cage (or maybe just half of it?) and show half race-prepped cockpit, half street/luxury and for sure have videos playing on a couple screens showing the car in autocross or on track.

Cool idea. If that isn't feasible, maybe instead just show the cage suspended above the rest of the chassis, to show the race stuff is mostly add-on's to street. This could get accross the same notion, how close street is to race version. Someone else mentioned color coding the race chassis bits, to highlight the few places they differ. I think these all accomplish roughly the same goal, so whichever is easier to do.


...Most business men / women in this industry are enthusiasts, however (hence your close second comment). Those that are at SEMA from a solely business stand point aren't likely to stop at the FFR booth because it's not something they're going to resell or manufacture parts solely for. You don't see a lot of companies making product solely for kit cars because, as Dave stated, it's not mainstream or mass produced...

I see your point, but I was thinking that anyone making Subie engine or trans parts or even some suspension brake stuff it would be very relevant for them. Others making parts for other engines, they are going to want to know about alternate drivetrains, if there will be an 818 market for their stuff. Still others will be thinking bandwagon, how to we align with the next copycat that is sure to come along to build similar kits. All of this creates the buzz that is needed. Even if for no other reason than to stay abreast of what is hot in your industry.

If this is a next big thing for serious car guys, everyone at SEMA is going to want (to need) to get in on it at some level.

[RM1SepEx]

Yes, show the promised "you can build a kick A** sports car for under $15,000 (WRX TURBO) and it can be made a track BEAST with these simple adds and deletes. Also show generic coupe and talk to next year's high mileage car.

I think you must "deliver on the promise" of a $15K performance sports car. I'd be willing to bet that heads up it would beat as single donor Mustang Factory 5 roadster... perhaps some comparison shots data yada yada yada

[flytosail]

While the marketing potential of of a two sided car is unique, time and cost-wise this might not be the time for it. Dave, thank you for making usthe initial viewers of the end product.

I want to be able to explain this as a "race car with a tag" to others. With some type of targa/soft top giving this a practical side to it makes it "explainable" to the wife. While the cool factor of a GTM supercar may not be affordable this wil be. If I have to wait a year or two for the roof then so be it. Take your time and give us a race care now. Allowing the beta and go-getters to find any minor faults and kinks will make my build go faster.

Waiting till then.

[Dave Smith]

We have a 3 minute video being produced which shows where we are currently with the vehicle/chassis testing and most notably some great in-car footage at speed.

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/818-vs-miata.jpg

[Xusia]

The anticipation is almost too much! :D

[07FIREBLADE]

Can't wait to see the video of that thing ripping it up on the track. Also tomorrow is the end of the week. Let's see this promised body already. I'm like a little kid staying up for Santa but its only June... Lol

[shim2]

Can't wait to see the video of that thing ripping it up on the track. Also tomorrow is the end of the week. Let's see this promised body already. I'm like a little kid staying up for Santa but its only June... Lol

YES! Tomorrow is end of the week(technically) Let's see some body and videos of this thing. Also, geez it's tiny. Looks smaller than that miata.

Also, if you don't mind what did you do with the power steering? Did you depower the rack or run the lines?

[Mechie3]

Not sure if this was brought up before, but different year Subaru's have different length downpipes coming off the turbo. Also, for those that go stage 2 (aftermarket downpipe, reflash the ECU) the biggest part is eliminating the OEM flat plate that covers the wastegate outlet. A bellmouth or divorced pipe is used. The adapter I saw was only a single pipe, making the jump to a bellmouth or divorced pipe more difficutl.

[D2W]

Really a fart can on the back? Just kidding, can't wait to see the video:)

[RM1SepEx]

I recognize that Miata! ProjectRally... you have been busy haven't you! I guess we know who took the video too. Looks about the same size as the Miata...

[Gary in NJ]

We have a 3 minute video being produced which shows where we are currently with the vehicle/chassis testing and most notably some great in-car footage at speed.

OK, that's cool right there.

[Flamshackle]

We have a 3 minute video being produced which shows where we are currently with the vehicle/chassis testing and most notably some great in-car footage at speed.

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/818-vs-miata.jpg

Ahhhh! The wait is killing me! I am gagging to see the body and cart footage :~)

Thanks for bringing us back into the circle Dave :D

It's lunch time on Friday here in Aotearoa already so let's see those pics! Hahaha...

[Flamshackle]

Also, if you don't mind what did you do with the power steering? Did you depower the rack or run the lines?

^^^ I would be interested to hear about this also.

[David Hodgkins]

That Go Cart is so cool...

:)

[Smitty911]

We have a 3 minute video being produced which shows where we are currently with the vehicle/chassis testing and most notably some great in-car footage at speed.

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/818-vs-miata.jpg

Some "Rough Order of Magnitude" info would be nice.

I'd lead with a 818R with a Street Interior, some people need help in visualizing.

Smitty

[SkiRideDrive]

So excited for video!

Also, If you don't mind sharing at this point Dave since you mentioned you've had the car on the scales. Have you recorded a preliminary front/rear weight distribution for the 818 (preferably with driver)?

[gmaki]

Possibly useless input here but I don't think it matters what version of the car is initially shown. It ONLY matters which one, which SHAPE, which color, evokes the most emotional reaction upon first sight. Whatever that is... is the one to show.

Anyone who is going to actually buy a car will do so after spending a bunch of time on the website. so it seems driving them here is goal #1, and that (for me at least) is usually a reaction to seeing an image that made me go "WOW.. WHAT is THAT?"

It's too bad you can't assemble a focus group and have them look at each one separately while monitoring their heart rate. That would give you the answer.

[305mouse]

Hi Craig, any word on your WRX? This is based on a 02-07 WRX donor, so the DP didn't change there. If going with another donor you could have a custom DP/exhaust made up. You could even go N/A which I'm considering.

[Niburu]

Some "Rough Order of Magnitude" info would be nice.

I'd lead with a 818R with a Street Interior, some people need help in visualizing.

Smitty

this
it's a track monster and daily driveable
keeps in the spirit of "I've heard it both ways"

[bobby1]

Race cars have sex appeal but car companies profits are driven by selling to the masses, which is why both the race and street version should be offered. The 818 could be a modern day version of the 60's Mustang where Lee Iacocca's goal was to build a $2,000 Ferrari. In addition, auto firms today aggressively promote gas mileage, which means the VW TDI should be offered as an option with the street version of the car since that mileage number would be awesome.

[thestigwins]

It's Friday.... end of the week! Let's see a video!!!!!!

Cue the music!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY0

[vozproto]

I love how most of us went dormant... and now that Dave threw some chum in the water we're all circling looking for something to sink our teeth into.

[AJW Performance]

You have provided your own answer here.

Track car first.

Besides, if there are any rough, crude or unsophisticated details and or issues/finishes with the prototype, it will be much easier to forgive on a "track car" than on something allegedly ready for the street.

Agreed;
I feel both options each have their advantages and potential "disadvantages" from a marketing perspective (as far as which to release first) , but overall 818r first IMO would be best. Regardless, we can't wait!

[thestigwins]

we were never dormant.... just had nothing to post. I have been checking theses forums multiple times each day for longer than I care to remember! :)

[Oppenheimer]

It's too bad you can't assemble a focus group and have them look at each one separately while monitoring their heart rate. That would give you the answer.

...or hair temp sensor.

Dave said go-kart weighs 15xx lbs. Anyone else thinking how much will body & interior weigh, and how much does all that wiring in the passenger seat (that will get dieted out) weigh?

[Mechie3]

Hi Craig, any word on your WRX? This is based on a 02-07 WRX donor, so the DP didn't change there. If going with another donor you could have a custom DP/exhaust made up. You could even go N/A which I'm considering.

I thought it changed somewhere in 06. My aftermarket one is a shorty, but I thought somewhere the front midpipe length changed (thus, DP changed). My aftermarket pipe is a shorty anyways.

Car is up to $12k in reparis without disassembly. I sent him $750 more in aftermarket parts that would need to be replaced. Told him I'm hoping for a total since straightened frame cars never drive right.

I'd lead with a 818R with a Street Interior, some people need help in visualizing.Smitty

818R with a street interior is what I think I want for my car. Racy looks with a nicer interior. More Ferrari esque (speed, looks, and comfort) and less lotus esque (speed, looks, nothing inside).


It's Friday.... end of the week! Let's see a video!!!!!!

Cue the music!


Glad I'm not the only one who thought of that video. I definitely checked your username to see if it said "letitsnow" as he loves to text me that video every friday. :lol:


I have been checking theses forums multiple times each day for longer than I care to remember! :)

Ever since my car wrecked i've been checking these multiple times per hour. :lol:

[Dave Smith]

Voz, yeah..Dormant for a bit on the information releases, but that was at my direction as I've wanted the team to get work done and we had gathered a great amount of feedback up to year end. Crowd-sourcing is good, as long as it contributes at nodes and doesn't direct the project or slow it too much. I've seen the daily picture game wreck good projects.

A few answers... Car has been tested with manual steering and brakes. Power is on the list.

EXACT Weight Specs: Current weight without body is 1503 lbs on scales includes 5 gallons of fuel in tank. Current weight distribution without body is 40 front, 60 rear. Design goal for final vehicle is clear at 42F and 58 rear. Design goal for the car was 1800lbs. and Jim is confident of that number considering a ton of variables such as factory seats, HVAC, etc. It is going according to plan.

Fart can was to simply meet noise restrictions of test facility and is not final exhaust configuration of course.

Engineering is pleased with handling and performance so far and feels the design goals will be met. The only design goal at measurable risk at this point is the paint-free body and molding process, which is not anticipated to be a problem, but since it has never been done by us here at FFR, it is considered a risk/.

I should shill our development partners at Solidworks Software and say that the chassis rigidity is PHENOMENAL and the full frame is designed and tested and is an excellent foundation upon which the builders will be able to dial in a tremendous amount of power.

Video will be released at Open House. I can't say whether or not I will have time to shoot off one of the body images today... ;)

[SkiRideDrive]

EXACT Weight Specs: Current weight without body is 1503 lbs on scales includes 5 gallons of fuel in tank. Current weight distribution without body is 40 front, 60 rear. Design goal for final vehicle is clear at 42F and 58 rear. Design goal for the car was 1800lbs. and Jim is confident of that number considering a ton of variables such as factory seats, HVAC, etc. It is going according to plan.


Excellent. I get more excited with every bit of information that is released.

[vozproto]

I can't say whether or not I will have time to shoot off one of the body images today... ;)

Just don't go downstairs to do it. Last time you were goin downstairs to get updates for us you didn't come back for 2 months. :p

[cob427sc]

I believe you should definitely go with your gut feeling. It's what got you this far with your business. With all the computer skills you have available, why not develop a hologram or similar tech of the other model - that type of a display would just kill at SEMA. I would think HP and Solidworks could develop something.

[shim2]

EXACT Weight Specs: Current weight without body is 1503 lbs on scales includes 5 gallons of fuel in tank. Current weight distribution without body is 40 front, 60 rear. Design goal for final vehicle is clear at 42F and 58 rear. Design goal for the car was 1800lbs. and Jim is confident of that number considering a ton of variables such as factory seats, HVAC, etc. It is going according to plan.

The only design goal at measurable risk at this point is the paint-free body and molding process, which is not anticipated to be a problem, but since it has never been done by us here at FFR, it is considered a risk.

Awesome news! 1800lbs with HVAC and PS. I figured it would be without those options. News just keeps getting better and better. Can you or someone else explain the bit about the paint-free body and molding process. I was under the assumption that all of your bodies were made in house and came molded but needed sanding/prep work. Is the 818 different from this?

[Sultan]

If no video is posted today then I should have stayed in bed:-) Kidding yet I can't wait to see the progress!

[ScottKoschwitz]

EXACT Weight Specs: Current weight without body is 1503 lbs on scales includes 5 gallons of fuel in tank. Current weight distribution without body is 40 front, 60 rear. Design goal for final vehicle is clear at 42F and 58 rear. Design goal for the car was 1800lbs. and Jim is confident of that number considering a ton of variables such as factory seats, HVAC, etc. It is going according to plan.


Oh, for a guy looking at the 818 as a possible Elise alternative, this is getting really interesting. Many times I went on an on-line shopping trip to see how much I could lighten a factory Elise: AC removal, lightweight battery, exhaust, seats, carbon fiber body panels. . . .

Do I foresee a show category at a future FFR Open House of "Lightest Street-legal 818"?

Hmmm, maybe I will plan a visit to this year's Open House.

[07FIREBLADE]

Dave is being such a teas right now it's killing me. Well I guess I should start focusing school work now since I'm gonna have to wait until next week for the video.. 😖

[PhyrraM]

Awesome news! 1800lbs with HVAC and PS.

Maybe. How heavy is the body going to be? The quoted weight is before a body too.

I'm actually wondering what makes the gocart 1500 pounds? Lotus Europa was steel frame, cast iron block and a fiberglass body. It weighted 1600 pounds when driverless. The all steel unitbody MG midget was also about 1500 pound complete. I trust Dave's (Jim's) measurments, I just don't see that much mass from the pictures.

[Evan78]

The first things that come to mind are turbo, intercooler, and wiring. Additional frame structure perhaps? How does the wheelbase and track compare on those cars?

[fateo66]

Maybe. How heavy is the body going to be? The quoted weight is before a body too.

I'm actually wondering what makes the gocart 1500 pounds? Lotus Europa was steel frame, cast iron block and a fiberglass body. It weighted 1600 pounds when driverless. The all steel unitbody MG midget was also about 1500 pound complete. I trust Dave's (Jim's) measurments, I just don't see that much mass from the pictures.


I bet each corner weighs around 60lbs between the wheels, tires, hubs, brakes and suspension. Plus 180lbs for the transmission, 300lbs for the motor, 600lbs for the chassis. That leaves around 185lbs for fluids, gas tank, sway bars, exhaust, wiring, seats and steering rack.

That all sounds about right to me.

[BipDBo]

Video will be released at Open House. I can't say whether or not I will have time to shoot off one of the body images today... ;)

I wish we could see the video of the gocart being tested ahead of time.

As for the body reveal, please don't post some crappy rendering just to give us forum members a sneak peak. This deserves the ceremonious pulling of the sheet.

[jimgood]

Maybe. How heavy is the body going to be? The quoted weight is before a body too.

I'm actually wondering what makes the gocart 1500 pounds? Lotus Europa was steel frame, cast iron block and a fiberglass body. It weighted 1600 pounds when driverless. The all steel unitbody MG midget was also about 1500 pound complete. I trust Dave's (Jim's) measurments, I just don't see that much mass from the pictures.
Maybe they're using slightly thicker tubing in some places for better rigidity.

[shim2]

I can wait for the video. You got us all excited the other day about a picture of the body by weeks end. Don't let us down like Tool did.. :( still waiting for that album.

[Dave Smith]

1,503 lbs included turbo, factory intercooler, and factory seats.

Here's a quick few seconds of suspension/chassis testing on street tires. A longer and more comprehensive video will be posted at Open House.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGvJCPk64as

[shinn497]

NICE!!! Man I would love to hear that engine .

[crash]

I must say, I don't think I have ever seen anything like that front suspension before.

Very interesting. I would think this is going to mandate an interesting body shape up front?

[shim2]

That's looks pretty good for manual steering! I can't wait to hear it.

[Dave Smith]

I have some isolated front and rear suspension videos during the same test and Mad Dog will post them in afew hours. Also, I havent spoken to Tim @ GRM so I'm going to hold off on the body images til next week but I won't let you guys down. Lastly I think Mad Dog has a short clip with sound of the car while it was doing accelration/launch tets so you can hear what the wrx mil sounds like in the configuration that we're using. Have a good weekend.

[skullandbones]

That's pretty impressive. It would be nice to hear it at the same time to check out the response out of the curves. Looked like you had a nice sweep of the tack so next we need to see some gears and sound to go with it!!!! Thanks a bunch! WEK.

[shinn497]

Have a nice weekend! Can't weight to hear the launch tests. The car seems really low and looks closer to a caterham/ariel atom than an elise.

If you post body images can I post them on my fb?! I need a new cover photo. My friends were really interested when I posted olmos's revised model (https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/564319_10100166605104075_24403310_39829912_9272071 21_n.jpg).

[riptide motorsport]

Sensory overload and deprivation alll at the same time!!!:cool:

[FFR-ADV]

Hey Dave,

I really enjoyed seeing this new Factory Five 818 gocart video.

Many of us would enjoy a video of you doing an imitation of Jeremy Clarkson grinning review only with the new FFR 818 go car. You will probably need a stunt double to get enough face skin movement from his "I'm an alien" section: :rolleyes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v4YNkurhLk

Wouldn't mind seeing the 818 jammed topping the chart after being tested by the Stig on this show!!!

I know you have some lofty goals! We agree!!!

[BipDBo]

After all that hard work, man, I bet it felt good to drive that thing! Who had the honors? I guess that anticipated first drive is an experience that every kit builder gets to enjoy. I'm totally stoked, imagining my first test drive.

[Mechie3]

Hard to tell how fast you're going in that video. Granted, I'm used to autocrossing with my butt 2" off the ground and cones just under my chin. Great to see the video though. I'm pumped! Got word my WRX has been declared a total loss today. Waiting until next week to find out payout/buyback, etc.

edit: Is the speedo hooked up in that vid? Couldn't see it moving at all, just the tach. Also, what motor is in that? The gauges look to be out of an 02-05 WRX (yellow needles, tach on right) but the front aluminum control arms are either from an STI or an 06 WRX.

[07FIREBLADE]

^^^ please top gear should of at least compared the atom to a liter bike and not a stock cbr600. But in all seriousness I can't wait to see this thing rip up the tracks and be compared to the atom....

[RM1SepEx]

Maybe. How heavy is the body going to be? The quoted weight is before a body too.

I'm actually wondering what makes the gocart 1500 pounds? Lotus Europa was steel frame, cast iron block and a fiberglass body. It weighted 1600 pounds when driverless. The all steel unitbody MG midget was also about 1500 pound complete. I trust Dave's (Jim's) measurments, I just don't see that much mass from the pictures.

remember a europa has a backbone frame, not a full frame like the 818 big difference in safety... nothing between you and another car except fiberglass in a Europa. And a smaller engine and trans

The 818 has a rigidity that the Europa can only dream of too!

Video looks great, what happened to the sound? I can't wait for the body shots and the open house...

On a sad note: My donor is stuck in NJ hundreds of miles from home... the truck broke down and the repair shop has already missed two promises for completion of repairs. The driver is getting hosed, a few days won't really matter to me!

[FFR-ADV]

I agree,

A liter bike like Aprillia RSV4 or BMW 1000 RR would have been much more dramatic. But in published comparisons, the Kawasaki ZX-6R was only 1:09.943 vs the 1:09.194 lap time for the Aprillia and 1,09.765 for the BMW. The car showed up 4 seconds before the bike. Thats a lofty goal!

I also would love to see the 818R school the competition like what is shown in this video: :cool:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIiWhWpzFQQ

The 818 (once revealed) will be much better looking than the Atom, IMHO. :)

[Dave Smith]

Here are a couple more short videos.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5TRhOOFOz4

[Dave Smith]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbc07w8fDuQ

[olpro]

Those videos are VERY impressive. Congratulations!

[FFR-ADV]

Very Cool Dave!

[Dave Smith]

Just got home and have a full plate of kids stuff ahead of me for tonight. Mad Dog logged in for me and posted those videos from our laptop hard disk. I asked him to post front/rear suspension cycles and a sound video clip (he had one that banged the rev limiter on the stock wrx mil). The body images will be next but not this weekend. The rear suspension shows how much the stock engine mounts allow movement... among MANY things we've learned, some more rigid poly's or similar will likely be used.

The point is that the engineers are doing a great job of testing and working on the car, one durability, performance, interchangeable parts, and a whole bunch of new challenges with this design. The guys at AJW Performance have been a wealth of Subie knowledge along with many others. Two weeks ago the guys bought a running Imprezza (non-wrx) actually a wagon to look at some of the economy-build parameters. The bottom line is that we have a comprehensive development and launch plan and we won't get guys all excited and then crap the bed.

Have a great weekend. Open House will be fun. SEMA will see the car unveiled and if the development and launch plan continue to go as it is going, we will be shipping kits in 2013.

[NicksPapaw]

Getting the juices flowing now aren't ya Dave? :) In my humble opinion, you need to show the track car first. You immediately get HOF response, as everyone wants to go to the track and race whether they actually do or not. You get instant recognition in all the major auto mags and word spreads like wildfire. Of course you have a street version and that is what most will eventually buy, but in their minds, they bought a RACE CAR! Bred from a heritage of on track performance, built by themselves. Heck, I am going down to the garage and sweep up a little. Gotta have one of those.

[Nuul]

Very nice, looking forward to the rest.

[Jeff Kleiner]

You know, being a performance and nuts & bolts guy the working suspension and stuff in these videos is what does it for me!
All ya'all who've been worried for months about what it's going to look like can keep on debating appearances a little longer. Meanwhile I've seen enough already...I'M IN!

Jeff

[riptide motorsport]

I'm with Jeff.....of course a HOF body can't hurt!! Just like women!!!!!:cool:

[projectrally]

I say throw some motorcycle fenders on it and just enough body cladding to direct airflow into the rad and IC, and call this puppy good!

[Flamshackle]

You know, being a performance and nuts & bolts guy the working suspension and stuff in these videos is what does it for me!
All ya'all who've been worried for months about what it's going to look like can keep on debating appearances a little longer. Meanwhile I've seen enough already...I'M IN!

Jeff



WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW!!!

This is just so flamin cool! Thanks Dave Smith for the wee video treats ;) like many I am super excited about the 818 concept and check this website daily (or more often)

Can't wait for the body unveiling! Bring on the open house

[jimgood]

Wonder if launching in second gear would be more productive. :)

[kach22i]

Thanks for the videos Dave, looks like the basic underpinnings of the car are progressing along nicely.

[Mike N]

Thanks for posting the videos Dave, really impressive stuff. I can see the heritage design details from the other FFR models being reflected in the 818 which is great. I don't see any sway bars currently on the car, are there plans for sway bars or are the CG and roll centers such that they are largely unnecessary? Perhaps no sway bars for the street car but an upgrade for the track pack? Also what are the plans for shocks, I see the 3012 DA Konis being used on the mule which are on the expensive side?

From the videos the car really does seem to be very composed and fast for running on what are clearly street tires, I can't wait to see the fully clothed chassis.

[FinishlineWRX]

Thanks for the updates and videos Dave. Really excited to see more and the model of the body next week.

[07FIREBLADE]

In which published articles are you referring to that shows the zx6r beating out the s1000r? To my understanding of what I have read it shows that the s1000r is only a second slower than the Ariel atom v8. Link straight from MCN who was there while top gear tested the two against each other.

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/General-news/2011/January/jan2411-s1000rr-second-fastest-ever-round-top-gear-track/

Even so the stock cbr600 was just a marketing tool to make the atom look better than what it truly is. A liter would of been a fair comparison.

[FFR-ADV]

Hi 07Fireblade

[QUOTE=07FIREBLADE;61709]In which published articles are you referring to that shows the zx6r beating out the s1000r?
QUOTE]

The article I was quoting is from the Bike of the Year article from October 2010 Sport Rider Magazine. Notice that the lap time for the Kawasaki ZX-6R was 0.749 seconds longer (it came in last) than the Aprillia RSV4 (the track time winner). The BMW 1000 RR also beat the ZX-6R but surprisingly by only 0.178 seconds on a single lap. My point was that the 600cc class isn't 4 seconds behind like what was shown in the video. I agree with you that a liter bike is a much better comparison to make. The second video schooling the Lexus and Lamborghini was more in line. I'd love to see a video of an 818 doing all of these things some day.

To be clear, I am not advocating for the Atom. I think that Factory Five 818 has potential to "Go Nuclear" as an Atom Smasher. The same Cosworth Subaru setup that Greddy put in their BRZ ~700 HP if I remember correctly, might put the 818r into this insane performance category. I will be personally quite content with what a slightly tweaked WRX will provide ( at least to start with ), since I don't want to try out for a Darwin award. :rolleyes: But there are many for whom there is never to much power, and I will watch with interest.

I it is not my intent that these videos distract in any way from the amazing progress that Jim and Jesper and the rest of the 818 development team have made with the FFR 818 "Atom Smasher" in progress.

Congratulations to all who were involved in the 818 development! Thank you for showing us these videos Dave!

I really look forward to seeing the body revealed, and more test videos.

Cheers!

[FFR-ADV]

By the way Thank you for the article link 07Fireblade. I enjoyed that. They also didn't want to take on a real track bike either even thoguh a full out track bike mught be as streetable as the Atom. The ride sure looked like fun though.

Now who's going to build a Factory Five 818 as an "Atom Smasher"

[Evan78]

Current specs on Atom site (http://www.arielatom.com/buy_an_atom-specs.php) say 1350 lbs. Power plants in them have varied, but the 818 is starting off with a significant weight disparity that will require a pretty big power advantage to achieve comparable times.

[skullandbones]

Creating an "Atom Smasher" may be a bit of a stretch (15k vs 53k) for most 818 project budgets but it is a pretty cool "stretch goal". I've never been in a street car that caused my face to disfigure like that on the video. They also mentioned that if you did get an Atom to also spring for the big brake package or you might not last very long. Personally, I'm not sure if I can stand that much fun! How about an open cockpit dragster: 0 to 100 in 1.5 sec? WEK.

[07FIREBLADE]

FFR-ADV, I just wanted to know which article you were referring to in your comparison. The way I read your post I got the idea that the zx6r was beating the aprilla and the BMW sorry misunderstanding. I'm new to this forum but not new to forums in general. I like to know where info is coming from and thank you for clarifying that for me.

On another note though it would be amazing if we could get the 818 into atom smashing ground territory. I bet someone will do it eventually but for the price of what you get and what you get with it this car is going to be pretty hard to beat. I bet it would beat that stock cbr600rr on top gears track with 300whp which seems to be quite easy to achieve according to many people on here and NASIOC.

[Flamshackle]

Now who's going to build a Factory Five 818 as an "Atom Smasher"

I laughed out loud here sorry.
While I have high hopes for my own 818 let's look at the crippling shortcomings the 818 will have when measured against the Atom.

-While the 818 will be light it's got a whopping exta 612 pounds over its rival!
-handling will be sharp but the atoms weight is distributed slightly better with NO overhanging weight to mention fore or aft
-the "soft core" supercharged atom delivers power more smoothly which is a BIG plus for light weight cars who need to transfer that power to the ground efficiently to gain traction. (Highly tuned turbo's be ready for BIG traction issues)
-the hard core V8 Atom also puts the power down with its high HP building to peak at some unimaginable RPM and a super fast sequential 6speed... You will have to get very snappy with your 5MT shift throws if you are hoping to compete with that...

-Ultimately it comes down to this...
Ariel designed the Atom purpose built to be ugly and nothing else... Nothing else BUT brain frying fast! in a straight line or around corners.
-FFR have worked a design around concepts that have to tick more boxes than pure speed.

It's just not going to happen...

but the Lord knows I'll try! Hahaha;)

[Etos]

Here is my take on how I believe FFR should go about with the body designs.


Don't lock 1 body to a certain "model" of performance. Keep the entire setup as flexible as possible when it comes to choosing body and drivetrain/options.

Make it so if I want to have a coupe, I can still build the car with whatever components I want to use.

This would make for a GREAT selling point. You could even go further as to just keep adding body styles over the years for people who want a certain body style. Even make limited edition versions at low production/high cost for those who want a certain body that may not be all that popular with everyone.


Essentially make the whole damn thing modular as possible.


Locking body styles to what you deem as it's intended use will only hinder your sales. For instance alot of people will want a coupe/hardtop but we have no interest in having a diesel. What about the guy who wants that race looking 818R but doesn't want any of the expensive extras, just wants a nice looking roadster and using a cheap $2000 2.5NA donor. You really need to put that into consideration.



I think it's great you guys are releasing multiple body styles for this car. I just feel the whole 'locking' of the body styles to certain models pretty much negates it completely. What good is a body style I like if I am forced into making it your way instead of mine? Isn't that the spirit of an FFR, make it my way? So please I hope this gets through to you Dave and you make the right choice.

[Xusia]

Don't lock 1 body to a certain "model" of performance. Keep the entire setup as flexible as possible when it comes to choosing body and drivetrain/options.

Make it so if I want to have a coupe, I can still build the car with whatever components I want to use.


Essentially make the whole damn thing modular as possible.

I really can't see this being done any other way. Of course, there could always be components or features inherently incompatible with a particular body style. For instance, the extra roll cage bracing for the track car might preclude the use of a soft top. But I really can't conceive of FFR purposely limiting body style and component selection.



Locking body styles to what you deem as it's intended use will only hinder your sales. For instance alot of people will want a coupe/hardtop but we have no interest in having a diesel. What about the guy who wants that race looking 818R but doesn't want any of the expensive extras, just wants a nice looking roadster and using a cheap $2000 2.5NA donor. You really need to put that into consideration.

I think it's great you guys are releasing multiple body styles for this car. I just feel the whole 'locking' of the body styles to certain models pretty much negates it completely. What good is a body style I like if I am forced into making it your way instead of mine? Isn't that the spirit of an FFR, make it my way? So please I hope this gets through to you Dave and you make the right choice.

Again, I just can't see them locking body types. Dave has talked about the swatch watch concept, which is to be able to mix and match, which goes completely against locking the body styles to certain component selections.

[FFR-ADV]

Hi Flamshackle,

Glad to have added some humor.

At the same time I expect that some of our community will do some things really special with the 818 such as:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DNSYQCI8uA&feature=player_embedded

I agree that steps will need to be taken with respect to weight and means to get power to the ground. I don't think many who race will be using the factory Subaru seats, and would sacrifice many other comforts or even appearance for performance. I think many of us will be putting better brakes and lighter seats even in our baseline cars. What other tradeoffs could be made to lose weight and gain HP?

The car in the first video was 245 hp. I think there is room for an 818r to get into that "face distorting," "hair on fire" performance realm. That will be more than enough for me personally. Others in our community will take it even further, and we will all benefit from the image that their exploits will do for our street/track day cars. Every FFR Daytona Coupe benefits from the reputation earned by the 1960s race history and the continued efforts like those in the video above.

Many of us will want the image of an all out race car even if a NA Impreza motor hides under the hood. Others will want a show car, detailed to the limits. I will likely take the slightly tuned WRX route myself. Those who push the 818 to extremes build a reputation and legend we benefit from regardless of how extreme our own efforts are.

I look forward to seeing all attempts at making an FFR 818 "Atom Smasher." :rolleyes:

[07FIREBLADE]

That 65 coupe is insane. I can't ebben imagine how much people are going to mess with this car to bring it to the extreme... Give me 300 whp and I will be happy for awhile...

[roglesby]

Long time observer of all things Factory Five, but first post. Yes, the 818 has caught my eye...

I am struck by the opportunity FFR has here. Dave clearly has the business acumen to see it, and hopefully will follow through on it.

Cars modeled after historical icons are limited by the perception of what is 'correct'. The benchmark of cars patterned after Mr. Shelby's classic roadster is clear. While you can do every insane mod to everything beneath the skin, the goal of the exterior is to be as close to the original as possible. Every car, other than an original itself, falls short to some degree...because it isn't an original. Doesn't matter that it is better in every meaningful way. The 818 has the chance to be different.

Why has Harley Davidson been so incredibly successful? Many reasons certainly. A visceral 'rightness' in the way it feels is a big one. But another big one is that external modifications are not simply tolerated, but encouraged and actively promoted. Such mods have become a huge revenue stream in their own right..both for HD and 3rd parties. A major reason why Asian bikes, regardless of technology, find it difficult to compete with HD is that they have struggled to capture a sense of the individual the way HD has.

Guys who build their own cars do so in large part because they want to do it 'their' way. If Dave and FFR can find a way to encourage that attitude in the 818...not only under the skin, but to the skin itself...I think they have the potential to do something very special with it. The challenge is in how to take the Swatch concept and deploy that to a car. Many of us do not have the skill, time, or patience to custom fabricate body alterations...but...if the car was designed with body customization in mind, I am sure the combination of creativity, individuality, and an entrepreneurial spirit would make it possible for us all to have something unique. Were an aftermarket of 818 parts actively encouraged and supported by FFR, they could evolve this into something pretty cool that goes well beyond what FFR could do by themselves.

The '33 Hot Rod shows that they understand the need...it can be finished many different ways. It will be interesting to see if they apply the same lessons to the 818...both under the skin and to it.

[Etos]

I really can't see this being done any other way. Of course, there could always be components or features inherently incompatible with a particular body style. For instance, the extra roll cage bracing for the track car might preclude the use of a soft top. But I really can't conceive of FFR purposely limiting body style and component selection.




Again, I just can't see them locking body types. Dave has talked about the swatch watch concept, which is to be able to mix and match, which goes completely against locking the body styles to certain component selections.

Maybe that's just the way he's coming off as? It seems to me from what he said in this thread alone that they are indeed 3 separate models and body types.

Right in the first post at the bottom he says

"ALSO for clarity, the first street car will be a roadster with a soft top (the top will launch WITH the car at intro). The Competitioncar will be an open cockpit race version of the street car body. The High mpg car HAS to be a coupe."

That reads to me, you have no choice on what body style you want once you pick your drivetrain. And I can see why Dave has no plans for a subaru hard top- it would be far too tricky to get air to the intercooler with one and still make the car look good. What I don't understand is why does the high milage car need to be hardtop? Why couldn't that be a roadster? Maybe cause he can't make any hardtops for the subaru drive train and trying to force the looks and marketing of a hardtop via it's high milage car? Just my wild guess but it's the only thing that makes any sense.

This doesn't bold well for my purchase of an 818. I don't want a diesel, I don't want a soft top and I'm probably not even going turbo anyway so why can't I get a hardtop even though intercooler is not an issue for me?

I'm just saying locking body types to Daves intended purposes is not a good move. Again the spirit of FFR cars is make them the way you want. This doesn't go with that spirit at all and disappoints me.

[David Hodgkins]

Etos, Dave would never make someone lock in a drivetrain by body type. I think you misread what he was saying. He was saying that to acheive the highest possible milage, you would have to build a coupe (due to aerodynamics) and their efforts related to release will be in that direction. If someone wants to build a race version of a coupe, Dave is going to sell him the kit, and would follow the build with great interest. But the FIRST builds from the factory will be in the configurations he mentioned.

:)

[Etos]

Etos, Dave would never make someone lock in a drivetrain by body type. I think you misread what he was saying. He was saying that to acheive the highest possible milage, you would have to build a coupe (due to aerodynamics) and their efforts related to release will be in that direction. If someone wants to build a race version of a coupe, Dave is going to sell him the kit, and would follow the build with great interest. But the FIRST builds from the factory will be in the configurations he mentioned.

:)

I do hope I am wrong but there's only one way to read what he said "ALSO for clarity, the first street car will be a roadster with a soft top (the top will launch WITH the car at intro). The Competitioncar will be an open cockpit race version of the street car body. The High mpg car HAS to be a coupe." If it was as you said, wouldn't it be "for the best milage, people should use a hard top" regardless of if it's a high milage vehicle or not? Wouldn't that make more sense? What's it to Dave if someone goes with a diesel high milage drive train and is willing to sacrifice XXmpg to get a soft top instead of a hard top? Why does it "HAS to be a coupe." ? Also if the hardtop was the most aerodynamic design, why isn't the track/race car version a hard top? Isn't aerodynamics just as important in a race as a high milage design?

Until Dave makes a comment on this I won't be holding my breath for an 818 anymore :(

[shim2]

I read it as saying if you want high MPG it would make sense to go with the coupe because aero reasons. I don't think he's saying "If you buy the coupe you better make it get 30+ MPG or I'll kill you" I don't think that's what he meant at all. I honestly think you're reading too much into into it. Maybe he was in a rush and that was the best reply that came to mind.

I'm not sure how those few words would make you rethink buying an 818, if that's the case I don't think you were planning on buying one in the first place.

One more thing, if Dave wanted the coupe to be a high mpg wouldn't they just build it and ship it to you as a completed car? Why on earth would they send you a KIT CAR that you have to put together yourself then tell you how to do it? What kind of backwards logic is that? I'm 100% sure he didn't mean what you think me meant.

[RM1SepEx]

Two words

Swatch Watch

mix and match as you please, it's a kit for God's sake! Dave has said this from the outset

The point is that the high mileage car will /must be a hard top, to MAXIMIZE mileage... that particular iteration will be optimized for reduced drag. If you want to use that body with a WRX motor, bolt it up with the correct mounts and go... 2.5 normally aspirated, same deal, high mileage Ford mill, turbo diesel VW etc...

The point is you can mix and match any drivetrain with any body. The coupe for high mileage will be optimized to make a kick but highest possible MPG car, imagine the GRM that West Philly did only several hundred pounds lighter and with an aerodynamic body punching a smaller hole through the air.

No reason why to not put an NA 2.5 in the track car or the roadster with soft top ...

You can build that body with any motor that they make mounts for OR even drop in something else if you want to make it fit!

[NonProfit]

I don't want a diesel, I don't want a soft top and I'm probably not even going turbo anyway so why can't I get a hardtop even though intercooler is not an issue for me?

Dave said:


ALSO for clarity, the first street car will be a roadster with a soft top (the top will launch WITH the car at intro). The Competitioncar will be an open cockpit race version of the street car body. The High mpg car HAS to be a coupe. Other combinations can be considered...

As I see it there are two possibilities. The first has been touched on before: to get the MPG they are looking at, they need to be a closed design. The other, I wonder if, due to how low the boxer sits to the frame, if roadster's rear deck will be too short to fit the diesel.

Either way, I don't know why the NA EJ won't fit in the coupe.

[shim2]

The NA will fit. The car isn't being built solely around the turbocharged WRX engine, you can also use the NA EJ impreza motor. Says so on their main website. To my understanding it's the exact same engine minus a few electrical connections.

[Etos]

I read it as saying if you want high MPG it would make sense to go with the coupe because aero reasons. I don't think he's saying "If you buy the coupe you better make it get 30+ MPG or I'll kill you" I don't think that's what he meant at all. I honestly think you're reading too much into into it. Maybe he was in a rush and that was the best reply that came to mind.

I'm not sure how those few words would make you rethink buying an 818, if that's the case I don't think you were planning on buying one in the first place.

One more thing, if Dave wanted the coupe to be a high mpg wouldn't they just build it and ship it to you as a completed car? Why on earth would they send you a KIT CAR that you have to put together yourself then tell you how to do it? What kind of backwards logic is that? I'm 100% sure he didn't mean what you think me meant.

Kinda unfair to say I was never planning on buying the kit due to my concern about it's body design? I never wanted a soft top from the get-go. I want a coupe. I am even selling my s2000 with 570hp to make a 300hp 818, so I am serious about owning an 818 if I can buy a coupe with a subaru drivetrain.


Again my take from what he said comes off as locking body styles to drivetrain/options. That or he really needs to work on how to explain these things. It would be much better if he said "Ok so at launch we'll have an open cockpit race style body and a soft top style body. Later down the road we'll be releasing a hardtop style body as well as a high milage diesel option." That to me sounds like swatch. How he explained it and even refers to it the entire thread- it's 2 separate models for the subaru drive train and a whole new model for the diesel.


I just want to hear it from Dave that I'm wrong and I'll be happy :o

[PhyrraM]

I'm with Etos here. Sort-of.

The current *prototype* chassis will not accomodate a transverse motor assembly without mods. Both of the other drivetrains that Dave has been mentioning (VW TDI and Ford Ecoboost) are transverse.

Also, it is currently thought that each body-type will need certain brackets/supports/structures in place to mount the body. The roadster and closed coupe frame will certainly need to be different. Door mounts, roof support, hood and decklid mounts, etc.

So, the question is...Will FFR make all variations? The tooling costs could add up. Could be as many as 9 distinct frames.

1) Subaru/Roadster frame
2) Subaru/Racer frame
3) Subaru/Coupe frame
4) VW/Roadster frame
5) VW/Racer frame
6) VW/Coupe frame
7) Ford/Roadster frame
8) Ford/Racer frame
9) Ford/Coupe frame

Of course, some can be combined. Or the 'diferences' can be accomodated with having one 'basic/stripped' frame and a ton of bolt-on brackets for the motors and bodies. (of course that will annoy the racers if cages and stuff are bolted on) But, so far Dave's words have always been "High mileage coupe".

While I assume he's got it covered, assumptions are not gauruntees. My personal *guess* is that Jim (and Dave) saw this coming a mile away and, while we may not see it yet in the prototype chassis, Jims got it all tucked away in the back of his head when the coupe and 'eco' drivetrains get thier turn.

[Gary in NJ]

So, the question is...Will FFR make all variations? The tooling costs could add up. Could be as many as 9 distinct frames.

1) Subaru/Roadster frame
2) Subaru/Racer frame
3) Subaru/Coupe frame
4) VW/Roadster frame
5) VW/Racer frame
6) VW/Coupe frame
7) Ford/Roadster frame
8) Ford/Racer frame
9) Ford/Coupe frame


The other possibility is that all variations use the same manual transmission, requiring only an adapter bell housing and clutch-pack to install Ford or VW power. I believe this would only be possible with a manual transmission as the host computer could not talk to VW or Ford automatic transmissions.

[PhyrraM]

The other possibility is that all variations use the same manual transmission, requiring only an adapter bell housing and clutch-pack to install Ford or VW power. I believe this would only be possible with a manual transmission as the host computer could not talk to VW or Ford automatic transmissions.

To me, this cannot be.

With a longitudinal tranmission (Subaru) there is barely room enough for the very short Subaru motor (2 cylinders long). An inline 4 (4 cyls long) is virtually gaurunteed not to fit.

With a transverse transmission, the Subaru motor cannot fit either as one of the half-shafts will need to go through a bank of cylinders. Also, almost ironically, the Subaru is very wide. So if mounted transversly you may very well have the same length issue you have with other motors mounted longitudinally.

This leaves FFR with having to accomodate two completely different way of mounting the drivetrain.

[SccrMan13]

There is always the new engine from the impreza. I have heard of people getting 39mpg hwy with the cvt. no clue what the cost would be but the availability of tdi engines in the us is not all that great.

[VTX]

Can't wait to see the pictures of the final body! Thanks for the updates Dave!

[riptide motorsport]

"I am even selling my s2000 with 570hp to make a 300hp 818, so I am serious about owning an 818 if I can buy a coupe with a subaru drivetrain."

Is that even possible? I'd really like to see a dyno sheet on that one.

[shinn497]

Kinda unfair to say I was never planning on buying the kit due to my concern about it's body design? I never wanted a soft top from the get-go. I want a coupe. I am even selling my s2000 with 570hp to make a 300hp 818, so I am serious about owning an 818 if I can buy a coupe with a subaru drivetrain.


Again my take from what he said comes off as locking body styles to drivetrain/options. That or he really needs to work on how to explain these things. It would be much better if he said "Ok so at launch we'll have an open cockpit race style body and a soft top style body. Later down the road we'll be releasing a hardtop style body as well as a high milage diesel option." That to me sounds like swatch. How he explained it and even refers to it the entire thread- it's 2 separate models for the subaru drive train and a whole new model for the diesel.


I just want to hear it from Dave that I'm wrong and I'll be happy :o

First I'm wondering why you are so in love with a coupe over a softtop. If it is stiffness you are worried about consider that the track ver and the challenge car are both topless. Dave himself said that the convertible chasis has a higher stiffness than the latter.

I think the different motor mounts would be an issue, but I wonder how big? I can't help but think that fabbing your own would be TOO difficult. But that is me. The 818 will probably evolve and grow so anything is possible!

[VTX]

First I'm wondering why you are so in love with a coupe over a softtop. If it is stiffness you are worried about consider that the track ver and the challenge car are both topless. Dave himself said that the convertible chasis has a higher stiffness than the latter.

I think the different motor mounts would be an issue, but I wonder how big? I can't help but think that fabbing your own would be TOO difficult. But that is me. The 818 will probably evolve and grow so anything is possible!


Just speaking for myself I've never been a fan of soft tops. I just hate the way they look. I would really like to see a coupe or a targa.

[skullandbones]

To me, this cannot be.

With a longitudinal tranmission (Subaru) there is barely room enough for the very short Subaru motor (2 cylinders long). An inline 4 (4 cyls long) is virtually gaurunteed not to fit.

With a transverse transmission, the Subaru motor cannot fit either as one of the half-shafts will need to go through a bank of cylinders. Also, almost ironically, the Subaru is very wide. So if mounted transversly you may very well have the same length issue you have with other motors mounted longitudinally.

This leaves FFR with having to accomodate two completely different way of mounting the drivetrain.

This is where I think FFR will adapt to the LEAN strategies that many companies have done to truely become customer driven. One solid example of this process is done at Matco Tools. No tool boxes are built for inventory but only custom jobs for each customer order. This reduces cost for the manufacturer by reducing "waste". In the above mentioned process waste is a lot more than most of us consider such as waiting, rework, excess materials, and finished inventory to name a few. I think FFR can build (small batch -small is good) and run say ten frames but customize the engine bay area to the particular customer need: high milage, track, street, and engine type. The first part of the process would be welded up which is the front part which is about 75 percent of the work. The custom work on the frame would be done to order and then on to powder coat or parts inventory to complete the order. The next finished frame might be a totally different combination but would again meet the specific customer order. I believe FFR has been following these concepts to a certain extent but the opportunity is great to expand it to this more diverse product that PhyrraM suggested. The cool thing about this process is capacity is built into the process so if volume exceeds the team's ability to meet the demand a new "cell" can be formed to do the same process avoiding log jams in the building process. If this is really a "world car", the volume will be much more than the roadster and will require a continuous process as mentioned that will meet the variations from the various customers. WEK.

[Smitty911]

This is where I think FFR will adapt to the LEAN strategies that many companies have done to truely become customer driven. One solid example of this process is done at Matco Tools. No tool boxes are built for inventory but only custom jobs for each customer order. This reduces cost for the manufacturer by reducing "waste". In the above mentioned process waste is a lot more than most of us consider such as waiting, rework, excess materials, and finished inventory to name a few. I think FFR can build (small batch -small is good) and run say ten frames but customize the engine bay area to the particular customer need: high milage, track, street, and engine type. The first part of the process would be welded up which is the front part which is about 75 percent of the work. The custom work on the frame would be done to order and then on to powder coat or parts inventory to complete the order. The next finished frame might be a totally different combination but would again meet the specific customer order. I believe FFR has been following these concepts to a certain extent but the opportunity is great to expand it to this more diverse product that PhyrraM suggested. The cool thing about this process is capacity is built into the process so if volume exceeds the team's ability to meet the demand a new "cell" can be formed to do the same process avoiding log jams in the building process. If this is really a "world car", the volume will be much more than the roadster and will require a continuous process as mentioned that will meet the variations from the various customers. WEK.

I'm with you on the above. If the long term plan is for several bodies and power trains, than the back half of the car will be addressed in the details.

Etos,

I hear your concern, but do you really believe Dave has enough time to word smith a reply so everyone is "ok". I wouldn't get all wadded up about it. The release is still 6ish months out.

Smitty

[Xusia]

I would add that the likely result of holding him to the fire in regards to specific words is NOT for him to be more specific or clear; it's far more likely for him to just shut up. Personally, I'd rather not see that happen. I recommend everyone understand he is busy, and can't always anticipate how everyone will take his words, and therefore has neither the time nor the clairvoyance to correctly word every thing he posts. In other words, have some faith and cut his wording a little slack! :)

[shinn497]

I would add that the likely result of holding him to the fire in regards to specific words is NOT for him to be more specific or clear; it's far more likely for him to just shut up. Personally, I'd rather not see that happen. I recommend everyone understand he is busy, and can't always anticipate how everyone will take his words, and therefore has neither the time nor the clairvoyance to correctly word every thing he posts. In other words, have some faith and cut his wording a little slack! :)

+1 to that. I think we should all be so thankful that dave is so open to criticism and shares information about this project. He cares more about his customer base than most presidents do.

[Flamshackle]

I look forward to seeing all attempts at making an FFR 818 "Atom Smasher." :rolleyes:

Much better wording, but still a pipe dream...

I am one of those that will hopefully do "something special" that will be looking to minimize weight on the already light 818. Having de loomed and built a custom lightweight loom on my 2door Wrx race car and spent to much money on the battery alone to skip on pounds I know a thing or two about weight savings.

I mean seriously think about it... Even the BODYLESS go carting 818 is significantly heavier than the atom so no matter how light your seat and battery is, it ain't helping.

As I said though the biggest issue that I can see is power delivery from a highly tuned high output turbo motor (and I am very familiar with these having exclusively owned and built turbo subarus for the last 15 years)

In saying that anything is possible... and with enough money i could build a Subaru 2.5 4pot turbo to hit the power figures needed to beat an atom (around 700HP+) but getting that power to the tarmac and making it usable in the 818 chassis we require more money than is worthwhile in anyone's book.

Let's look at some rough figures and components to get this to work...

-Engine build to put out over 700HP= 30K+ here in NZ (you can do the US conversions if you want) but straight away that's three times the cost of the car itself.
-gearbox straight cut gears sets, half shafts and diff to handle that power=10-15K
-chassis development to cope with over three times the power levels it was designed for? Costs unknown
-rubber needed to get that power to stick?
-bare bones carbon fibre body replacement, super light seats, super light battery, custom lightweight loom, superlight wheels, alloy brake disc hats the list goes on and the wallet gets empty..
-aero spoilers/defusers and wings to keep it on the ground and cornering hard at 200+mph (which the atom can do... limited by gears not power)

I would say at this point the Atom v8 would be looking cheap in comparison.

The thing I most look forward to about the 818 is a car that looks absolutely stunning (unlike the atom) one I can take out on a rainy day, something that makes people say "wow what is it?" and a car that mocks super cars in its performance.

But if I do happen to one day see a v8 Atom at the track or on the road (which i have had the pleasure of both) I shall politely move aside and salute the car that makes a mockery out of all the speedy wannabes.

[DrieStone]

But if I do happen to one day see a v8 Atom at the track or on the road (which i have had the pleasure of both) I shall politely move aside and salute the car that makes a mockery out of all the speedy wannabes.

Agreed. It's hard to not look at the "top of the food chain" and want to kick its butt, however, a dose of reality is required here. For me, I'm seeing this a replacement for my urge to buy an Exige or perhaps build a Stratos Kit.

Here's the thing though, I think Dave and FFR have the experience and capability to build a great car, but I honestly don't think the 818 is a better car than the Exige (even if I can get my 818 to go faster than one). I know what I'm buying, and I'm excited to put my money down to get it.

I'm happy for others to go chase after trying to build something that will outrun something like the Atom, I'll be happy to outrun 99.99% of everything else on the road.

[skullandbones]

I believe the operative word is "exotic" for the atom. It has two important concepts going for it that make it unbeatable from the 818 prospective. First: the chassis is the body work for the most part which is one reason the Top Gear guy called it elegant because it is. The exoskeleton frame is an elegant solution to a difficult problem (weight reduction). The second: advantage is just pure hard core expensive technology - alloy tubing and TIG welded. Pure and simple it is just easier to add a little horse power to light vehicle than it is to add much more hp to get the same effect. The problem with that is even with the matching of hp, you still have the residual extra weight. You will never get to parity with the Atom unless you start out with a light frame. The real problem with this comparison is that the 818 was never considered from an exotic perspective. If it was, Dave and FFR would be producing a car more like the GTM (been there, done that). So the cost containment built into the 818 concept disqualifies it for chasing aspirations of "Atom smashing". You're right. Move over and let it by because it will probably be the only one you have to give that latitude. WEK.

[StatGSR]

"I am even selling my s2000 with 570hp to make a 300hp 818, so I am serious about owning an 818 if I can buy a coupe with a subaru drivetrain."

Is that even possible? I'd really like to see a dyno sheet on that one.

of course its possible, here are some old dynos of a friends old S2K
http://www.mnsportcompacts.net/forum/showthread.php?68454-Consummate-Tuning-s-Turbo-S2000-Hits-the-Dyno
and heres an old clip at the drag strip..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FuhIGvu2qg

found some newer dynos where it made 740whp...
http://www.jordantuned.com/742whp_Honda_S2000.php

[PhyrraM]

I guess I don't get the Atom to 818 comparisions. The Atom is a low comprimises car meant for the track. The 818 is all about smart comprimises to achieve goals for both the street and track - not to mention price.

The only crossover I really see is *maybe* if you really want an Atom, but can only afford the 818. Even at that, I'll bet you can find EXOs that start about the same $10K that would be better suited than an 818.

As a side note, I'd love to see what FFR could do if they tried a true EXO 818. Both what it would look like and weigh in at.

[Evan78]

As a side note, I'd love to see what FFR could do if they tried a true EXO 818. Both what it would look like and weigh in at.Me too! Until the 818 came along, I was thinking that I'd build a Locost one day, but it would be great if a company as experienced and reliable as FFR got into the Locost and/or exo market.

[shim2]

Are we getting a sneak peak at the body today?

[ehansen007]

Hey Dave,

Sorry if this was covered, but what does Ezra have to say about it? In his tenure, I'm sure he knows how car companies best fulfill the consumer appetite by releasing base models first while teasing those with the racier versions 6 months down the road. Subaru has done this for years with the WRX and then the STI version months after. I'm sure their marketing would know a thing or two as well. It might behoove you to give them a shout. However, I'm all for seeing both at the show and will echo the Wookie's comments on a build party as I know I have some revenge to claim on the East Coast! Let's see another build-off!

e!

[David Hodgkins]

I like the way you think Erik!

:)

[projectrally]

As a side note, I'd love to see what FFR could do if they tried a true EXO 818. Both what it would look like and weigh in at.

Agreed. After seeing the 818 in action I came away thinking that it would be fantastic for FF to make an exo-version of this car. Throw some motorcycle fenders over the wheels, add in a nose cone and some lights, and call it good! I have no doubts that it'll still be an incredibly impressive car with a body and interior, but imagine how much fun it would be served up more or less as is.

Then consider this: They're trying to hit a $9900 price point for a full car with body panels and an interior. Imagine the cost if they eliminated those parts from the kit...

[07FIREBLADE]

Lol, questioning the guy if 570 whp is possible in a s2k is hillarious. Seen people build turbo civics with over 5-700 horse all day long on the old and reliable b series motors. That's like Honda bread and butter motor setup. And thy have been doing it for years...

[PhyrraM]

Agreed. After seeing the 818 in action I came away thinking that it would be fantastic for FF to make an exo-version of this car. Throw some motorcycle fenders over the wheels, add in a nose cone and some lights, and call it good! I have no doubts that it'll still be an incredibly impressive car with a body and interior, but imagine how much fun it would be served up more or less as is.

Then consider this: They're trying to hit a $9900 price point for a full car with body panels and an interior. Imagine the cost if they eliminated those parts from the kit...

Hmmm.. I think the prototype chassis, as is, is kinda ugly and piecemeal. Even the Locost/Lotus 7 frames have a better eye towards keeping things in the same plain and such for asthetics. I'm looking forward to the bodywork. I'm sure FFR could do much better if the goal was a presentable frame from the beginning.

[metalmaker12]

yea true, it was never intended to be a exo

[Mechie3]

Pieces in the same plane tend not to be as stiff as pieces in 3D space. A lattice built on the XY plane is strong in X and Y, but will bend in the Z direction. A 3D lattice built with triangles in mulitple planes is more rigid.

Is the reason for the open top cost or is it mainly to feed the intercooler? I'd like to see a targa top version similar to an exige. That gives you a hardtop and air for the intercooler. Worse case, reroute the intercooler in a custom job.

I live in Indianapolis, so for me the top is more of a "oh, it's raining today" type of deal and less of a "I don't like soft tops", though I prefer a nicely painted targo to a roof only ragtop (as opposed to a full top/back convertible).

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/attachments/f95/153949d1285441729-fs-2007-exige-s-roof-roof1.jpg

[Dave Smith]

I am releasing some more photos before the open house that should be interesting as well as a bit of an engine soundtrack since so many asked how the subie mil sounds (good). I think Jim will have the car in running mode for Open House visitor to hear it.

Also: Don't worry about the frame... While it was never made as an exo-skeleton and there a million considerations in it's design, I think its fair to say it won't be ugly. Our frames/chassis designs are pretty cool and functional and there's no reason to doubt the 818 won't carry on this tradition. FFR frames ARE the standard in the kit car industry for both strength and beauty.

I see alot of comparisons to the Atom, and I understand this but would offer that the comparo is off a tad. We are trying to engineer a car that is a full body (or three), that was an implicit part of the design goals, that it be a real car. We are trying to do so in a build-it-yourself package for ten grand, quite a mean feat if I do say so myself. Even with every perf addd-on I can't see it getting NEAR the price of an Atom, but I can see the performance and style to be within striking distance... plus the wifey aint going to dinner in the "make-up and hair smashing" Atom. Everything (and I mean everything) I've seen in the kit car world at 10 grand and under is really pretty-much crap. To accomplish our design goals we are really doing the best work we've ever done in composites, in frame/chassis engineering, in suspension, in value engineering, etc etc. The world (and you guys) will judge us on the effort and each day I'm getting more and more confident that it will be a resounding "thumbs up". BUT we won't know for sure until we pull the wraps off the actual car, let people see it, sit in it, drive it, thrash it, and inspect all the parts and kits, listen to the feedback of others and measure it worthy with an order based on it's real, measured and actual merits and not on our promises or on leveraging our reputation of past projects. We'll show the world the car at SEMA 2012 and here at FFR afterwards... til then this feedback is helpful in guiding and influencing the project.

[leetfade]

So can I drive it at SEMA?? ;-)

[wallace18]

Dave, I commend you on sharing so much and listening to all of us. I am stoked on what I have seen so far. This will be my first Kit car but I built many stock cars and such. I find how you are doing this very open and refreshing as far as companys go. I am ready with a donor and will be hopefully one of the first to build the kit. Thanks for all the info,phots and video's

[Mechie3]

My previous post needs to be reviewed...probably because I posted a link.

I was wondering if the open top is purely for intercooler airflow, or just for cost? I'd love a removable hardtop like the top on the exige with a roofscoop to feed the intercooler.

[Nuul]

I live in Indianapolis, so for me the top is more of a "oh, it's raining today"

Exactly, this is my reason as well. I'm really hoping there is an upgrade option for roll up windows as well, I really don't like the idea of zip ins. I was probably going to be buying a BRZ to replace my DD anyway but the 818C may get that job if the coupe is feasible in the next 12-18 months. It's a lot easier to justify going a little nuts on an 818 if you use it more than 3 months out of the year.

[Duratec7]

Me too! Until the 818 came along, I was thinking that I'd build a Locost one day, but it would be great if a company as experienced and reliable as FFR got into the Locost and/or exo market.

+1!

[Mike N]

I was probably going to be buying a BRZ to replace my DD anyway but the 818C may get that job if the coupe is feasible in the next 12-18 months.

Any idea if/when there might be a turbo/STi version of the BRZ?

[Etos]

First I'm wondering why you are so in love with a coupe over a softtop. If it is stiffness you are worried about consider that the track ver and the challenge car are both topless. Dave himself said that the convertible chasis has a higher stiffness than the latter.

I think the different motor mounts would be an issue, but I wonder how big? I can't help but think that fabbing your own would be TOO difficult. But that is me. The 818 will probably evolve and grow so anything is possible!

Cause I don't want a kit car soft top. I love OEM factory ones but the push of a switch and snap of some latches, you are good to go kind of soft tops. Kit car soft top? No way in hell. Also the blind spots with soft top up are annoying.

I am not putting Dave under the fire or trying to. I just want to know how modular the kit series will be. Fair question is all I'm asking. Hell, alot better of a question then if it can compete with an Atom...

[riptide motorsport]

delete

[shim2]

Still a bit curious if one were to buy the roadster could they later down the road get a coupe body and put it on. That way if they decide on the coupe they don't have to go through the hassle of selling roadster and build another car. Good idea IMO.

[Xusia]

Dave, I commend you on sharing so much and listening to all of us. I am stoked on what I have seen so far. This will be my first Kit car but I built many stock cars and such. I find how you are doing this very open and refreshing as far as companys go.

+1


Exactly, this is my reason as well. I'm really hoping there is an upgrade option for roll up windows as well, I really don't like the idea of zip ins. ... It's a lot easier to justify going a little nuts on an 818 if you use it more than 3 months out of the year.

+1

[FFR-ADV]

... plus the wifey aint going to dinner in the "make-up and hair smashing" Atom.

That’s funny...that wasn't Atom Smashing was it???...Wifey sure won't want enough bugs in her hair to film an episode of "Badger Watch" Probably not what was meant by "Hair on Fire" either...:rolleyes:

Cheers!

[David]

Dave,

While the track version would be hot looking and get some attn, my gut says the street version is what you should have at the show, but with a very large banner with the track version pictured.

The reason being, is the street car is going relate to WAY more people and will be your bread and butter. You will have a MASSIVE market in the street car... from those building with a $500 NA donor car, to the 400-500+ HP monster with custom interiors. The same goes for the age bracket the car will appeal to. The market is much larger for the street car on several levels.

$15-20K track toys fall into a very small market in comparison, just like the cobra... how many spec cars have you sold vs street roadsters? How many Elise has Lotus sold vs there track only cars?

I think people would think its cool and great... but most wont relate to a track only car. If you dont get that immediate, man I have to have one reaction, they probably wont remember and tell their friends. If they can see themselves with the car sitting in their garage they will.

David

[Nuul]

Any idea if/when there might be a turbo/STi version of the BRZ?

It's all rumors at this point; a few model years is my wild guess.

[olpro]

I wasn't going to weigh in on this track version vs street version but I decided I will.

The answer will depend on what it LOOKS like... The track version will be judged on its performance (which is anticipated to be superior). An average or poor body design favors leading with the track car.

[MuddyRoverRob]

A quick weigh in on the roadster vs coupe discussion.
although i like a roadster I buy a hardtop.

[Benji]

If the street version is already going to be rapid, the autocross/track people can probably extrapolate what a track version will be capable of.

So long as you present the street version, making clear the intentions to release a track version (perhaps backed up by what changes there will be and pics), this would make everyone happy.

[MuddyRoverRob]

Further to my last post...

It's a kit car!
The plans are a guideline if you can figure out how to stuff an LS-7 into an 818 then that is beyond cool!

You are not "locked" into anything.

[shinn497]

Another day and no body pics and it is 11:30 east coast time. You said something about getting approval from GRMS are they helping outside of the initial crowdsourcing? IT seems like this project is a huge undertaking from FFR due to its scope and amount of collaboration. I really hope the 818 can sell like hotcakes.....

[shim2]

Maybe Tuesday we'll get picture.

[leetfade]

I think he already said he would try to later in the week. Have some patience. Good things come to those that wait! :cool:

I was glad to see some videos of it in go kart form!

[0100]

818R at sema, without a question, but if you really want to get this on the world wide map, this is what you do Dave. It's going to cost some money, but shouldn't be too crazy to get it done, and this would pay off in spades.

Build an 818R beast (koni triple adj. dampers, big brakes, fully built engine and gearbox, comp dot tires, etc) Needs to be done anyways for sema.

Ship the car and engineers to Germany for a couple weeks. Enjoy the German beer. :)

Line up a pro driver that knows the nurburgring like the back of his hand.

Rent the Nordschleife for a couple days and have your engineers and pro driver dial in the car.

Then slap down a low seven minute time.

Post the incar data/video on your site and youtube.

Then BAM within a day it will be on every car forum, blog, and magazine.

A fully built 818R with the right driver I know could do an insane lap time.

[GUNS]

^ Not a bad idea if FFR has the resources to make that happen.

[0100]

Also let me add the biggest expense will be the shipping of the car BUT the 818 could be shipped in pieces to save big money, then just assemble it in Germany.

Renting the track might be some money, but they have track days which are cheap. This would not give you an entire free track, but you would only be dealing with track day cars and the track is big, so slow traffic shouldn't be a problem.

This is very doable.

Dave, ask yourself how much would it cost to advertise in every car magazine, forum, and blog?

Plus you get the added benefit of some priceless data.

[NonProfit]

Also let me add the biggest expense will be the shipping of the car BUT the 818 could be shipped in pieces to save big money, then just assemble it in Germany.

I'm not knocking Germany, but what's the point? There are tracks closer to MA.

[GUNS]

I'm not knocking Germany, but what's the point? There are tracks closer to MA.

The point it that the Ring is used as a global measuring tool for all current performance cars. Companies will test their cars at this track and if it puts up a good time they use this as a marketing tool, ie the Nissan GTR.

[shim2]

818R at sema, without a question, but if you really want to get this on the world wide map, this is what you do Dave. It's going to cost some money, but shouldn't be too crazy to get it done, and this would pay off in spades.

Build an 818R beast (koni triple adj. dampers, big brakes, fully built engine and gearbox, comp dot tires, etc) Needs to be done anyways for sema.

Ship the car and engineers to Germany for a couple weeks. Enjoy the German beer. :)

Line up a pro driver that knows the nurburgring like the back of his hand.

Rent the Nordschleife for a couple days and have your engineers and pro driver dial in the car.

Then slap down a low seven minute time.

Post the incar data/video on your site and youtube.

Then BAM within a day it will be on every car forum, blog, and magazine.

A fully built 818R with the right driver I know could do an insane lap time.

I agree with this except the driver needs to be Sabine Schmitz.


I'm not knocking Germany, but what's the point? There are tracks closer to MA.

Yea there are tracks all over the states, but there isn't the nurburgring. Ultimate test course IMO.

I think that's a great idea if it would be within reason financially. The ring is probably the best place to show off your car and get global attention.

[Someday I Suppose]

I agree with that David Borden guy, the street car has the widest audience and would be the one I would focus my marketing effort on. I am also taking a bit of a leap and thinking that the street car would also be a pretty good HPDE track car as well for guys who want a car that pulls double duty. The track car on the other hand sounds to me more like the spec roadster in that while you could make it street legal, most guys are going to buy it as a dedicated track toy. Again with David's thoughts a much smaller audience I think for that then for a car that they can take the wife to dinner in, autocross, and play with on the track.

-Scott

[Mike N]

The one track in the US that might be a good fit would be the full course at VIR, the same one that Car and Driver runs their 'Lightning Lap' on. To have the 818 top or place well in this group of cars would be a great marketing point. Current list can be found here: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2011-ndash-feature-ndash-car-and-driver-sortable-times-complete-lightning-lap-times-2006-to-2011-page-8

[NonProfit]

Yea there are tracks all over the states, but there isn't the nurburgring. Ultimate test course IMO.

I suppose.

[0100]

I suppose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mEirkQN8o

Just to give you an idea this was posted in 2008, yet people are still commenting on it today. (9710+) comments later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times

A good ring time is big news in the sports car world.

[shim2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mEirkQN8o

Just to give you an idea this was posted in 2008, yet people are still commenting on it today. (9710+) comments later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times

A good ring time is big news in the sports car world.

15-30k kit car beating 100k ZR1 around Nurburgring. Think of the press that would bring. IMO, SEMA is big, but putting down a solid laps at Nurburgring is bigger and will catch more attention.

[Mike N]

You guys need another cup of coffee, seeing the go-kart wizz around a parking lot Auto X course is a far cry from being ready for a balls out lap around the Nordschliefe. And where would FFR find the additional resources to support the track development time needed when they are obviously burning the midnight oil just to finish getting the car designed. It's a fantastic idea but it's not going to happen unless someone steps up with the resources (and funds) to make it happen.

[0100]

You guys need another cup of coffee, seeing the go-kart wizz around a parking lot Auto X course is a far cry from being ready for a balls out lap around the Nordschliefe. And where would FFR find the additional resources to support the track development time needed when they are obviously burning the midnight oil just to finish getting the car designed. It's a fantastic idea but it's not going to happen unless someone steps up with the resources (and funds) to make it happen.

This is something to be done after the car is fully developed and built for SEMA. Notice I said this


Build an 818R beast, Needs to be done anyways for sema.


This was just an idea to get the car on the world map, and I honestly think it could be done for a lot less money than you think.

110% of the effort right now should be getting the car developed.

[leetfade]

I don't think anyone is discounting the value of putting down a competitive time on the ring, it's just the time, resources, etc. You also have to be prepared for the potential volume increase that a successful run could bring.

I would think that Dave and crew have their hands full staying on schedule for a SEMA debut and a kit production roll-out in 2013. Not to mention there are 3 styles currently in discussion and all need R&D time.

I think this is something that would be a very interesting proposition once the kits start to roll off the assembly line, though.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Granted sending a "ringer" to the ring (no pun intended) or VIR or elsewhere could generate some coverage, but the flipside would be that even though the basic build's performance numbers are expected to be respectable they would be a letdown in comparison. What's the majority of the customer base really going to build; a street/occasional HPDE/auto-x car with some mild tweeks or a no holds barred track monster? I think we all know the answer to that... Keep it real and attainable.

Jeff

[Steve91T]

The one track in the US that might be a good fit would be the full course at VIR, the same one that Car and Driver runs their 'Lightning Lap' on. To have the 818 top or place well in this group of cars would be a great marketing point. Current list can be found here: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/lightning-lap-2011-ndash-feature-ndash-car-and-driver-sortable-times-complete-lightning-lap-times-2006-to-2011-page-8

I agree.

[Mad Dog]

We've made some updates to the website and Dave told me he wanted to post a few images before Open House. Here is the 818-R concept. It is a evolution of Jim's original design in a track car focused body.

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/818poster.jpg

[Mechie3]

EDIT: Doh! It was a new pic, it was posted while I was busy uploading photos.


Whoa...whoa. Maybe my computer was just dumb in the past, but I haven't seen this pic on the landing page for the 818 until this morning. HOT! Quick, someone post the "shut up and take my money" pic. I'm too busy drooling to find it. Love the color scheme.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q291/mechie3/818.jpg

[Mad Dog]

Here's a video of Automobile Magazine writer Ezra Dyer introducing the new McClaren and comparing it to our GTM. The reason I posted it here is he drives the 818 chassis at the end of the video with sounds of the engine off-idle.

http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Yc13RjPeVwZfmg.bmceXjg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/motoramic/mclarenfacfive.jpg

Click here to watch the Yahoo Autos video (http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/mclaren-mp4-12c-vs-factory-five-gtm-motoramic-153949165.html)

[skullandbones]

You guys need another cup of coffee, seeing the go-kart wizz around a parking lot Auto X course is a far cry from being ready for a balls out lap around the Nordschliefe. And where would FFR find the additional resources to support the track development time needed when they are obviously burning the midnight oil just to finish getting the car designed. It's a fantastic idea but it's not going to happen unless someone steps up with the resources (and funds) to make it happen.

I've seen two extreme examples so far with the ZR1 and on another thread the "Atom Smasher" discussion. These are exotic technologies compared to the 818 project which really don't compare.

The main reason for marketing the street version is because of a real difference in the potential customers. If you have seen the multitudes of WRX, STI, etc out there that go buzzing by you on a daily basis, you know that those are not 40 to 55 guys but a completely different demographic. So the DD is also the race toy however much or little they really race. When I was 17, I had a 55 Chevy big block with street slicks (two grooves cut in an 11 in slick) and a flip fiberglass front end. I raced it some legally and on the street but 95% of the time it was my DD. If it was broken, I walked or borrowed my mother's car. Shift forward to 2012. There are a lot of guys just like that who can afford to be in an 818 which is a natural progression for them with the familiar technology. This has not and will not be like any other experience for FFR as the roadster, spec racer, GTM, hot rod, and coupe are going to customers of a different age and economic demographic (statistically speaking). IMO WEK.

[bobzdar]

We've made some updates to the website and Dave told me he wanted to post a few images before Open House. Here is the 818-R concept. It is a evolution of Jim's original design in a track car focused body.

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/818poster.jpg

It looks good. Not HOF by a long shot, but not bad.

I'm not sure why this body was chosen as it was universally panned when last shown (did anybody like it?), but it's improved since the last time we saw it. It's well proportioned now, where before it wasn't. The problem is that it's just very bland, breaks no new ground anywhere, looks like a 5-7 year old design instead of something cutting edge. I think FF has played it too safe, but I guess the take away is that it doesn't turn me off of the car, but a little disappointing none the less.

Edit: Looks too close to a tiburon from 2005-2007 (hey, 5-7 years old was right on)...
http://porsche-insight.com/wp-content/uploads/Hyundai-Tiburon-2.jpg

[skullandbones]

I think there are a lot of racers who would take it as is. If you were going to use it as a street legal car, not so much. Is that a GTM wing? Are the halos tall enough to be considered functional? Maybe the driver sits very low in the cockpit or maybe the low profile is just for this presentation. WEK.

[shinn497]

Wowzers!

It looks better....but I don't know why. Actually It reminds me of a blend of a viper and a le mans prototype car. Doesn't look as sweeping or exotic as I hoped. But it has a sense of just right to it. It looks ALOT like the GT-M's younger cousin.

While I'm a little let down the change isn't so dramatic from jim's design, I do love the changes and think they are very appropriate. Lower profile hood, smoother side skirts, big side vents, good meld between the roll bars and the body.

Btw this car screems low profile, it is just melting into the ground and looks wrapped around those tires. It screams aerodynamics, low COD, and downforce. If the street version looks like this it would work very well with an aggressive lip.

I wanted rodney's update, but I'd be pretty proud to drive this. It's gorgeous, unique and very factory five.

[Sebxb]

I like it.

Like the side vents where the rear seem to be getting wider. Like the front end. Yes it does look like the GTM's little cousin and I guess it's fine and makes sense.

Like it was said, looks less exotic than I wished for but a little 'classier' while still looking fast and low. More pics with different angles would probably reveal small details and perspectives that will make me like it even more.

Nice to hear the engine's sound at the end of the video!!