Milk Carton Guy Looking for Advice

[prematureapex]

That'll do Dave!

[Nuul]

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/818poster.jpg

I'm very happy with the way it looks. Well done guys.

[thestigwins]

I think the car looks awesome. I am just curious what the car will look like with a solid color and full windshield. I will buy one without a doubt. It's time to start looking for a donor.

[Mike N]

The street version of that car is certainly not going to grab attention it's going to look too much like any other main stream 2 seat convertible. Imagine the car posted with no graphics, no wing and a full windshield parked at a typical tuner car show, the car wouldn't stand out at all it would just disappear into the crowd. Where's the aggressive edgy styling that we are all looking for?

[riptide motorsport]

that yahoo autos was a great plug for FFR. the car sounded good from what
I could hear.

[dclin]

If you guys are going with this body style to lead, then I would definitely say spot light the track version. I'm a bit worried that the street version would simply be a little too bland. I think I would feel the same way as I do the GTM; looks good in red/white/blue race livery on the website, but the solid color street versions are 'meh'.

Still though, it is an improvement over the original. Not sure about all the busy lines going on in the grill area, but all in all its ok. Good job so far. Can't wait to see the alternate body styles.

[Mechie3]

I will admit, the front bumper is my least favorite aspect of that car, but overall I love it. I still like the large gaping 3 mouth opening of Xabier's design the best. It looked more like a lambo or the new exige that isn't available for the US.

I think most modern-ish high end cars are using a large agressive air dam/grille. Overall though, the car reminds me of the lotus 2-11 or a lemans racecar.

http://worldautomodification.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2012-Lotus-Exige-S-Front-Angle-588x441.jpg

[prematureapex]

I, for one, was hoping it wouldn't be too over the top with the design. Give me a clean, good looking 2 seater. Nothing wrong with a little bit under the radar. It's what's under the body that we're interested in.

I never could envision how some of the more popular designs would be implemented into production without serious budget concerns. Too many parts, too many body inserts required. Then there's the risk of it looking WAY TOO out there once implemented in full size. Simple, clean, with a bit of flare...aok with me.

[StatGSR]

that car could be great if the front didn't look so jumbled together.... seriously, those Camry headlights have bugged the crap out of me since day one and the rest of the bumper doesn't do much for me either. I was really hoping i would be excited about what i would see and now that i have, I'm far less excited....

[DrieStone]

It looks good, but not HOF. What I fear is that if this is the 818R, bad to the bone, then the standard kit is going to look tame, and... well average. I'm going to wait and see what the final car really looks like (in person), but my own opinion went from 80% sure I'll buy, to significantly less. I know we were shooting for the stars, and maybe my own expectations were unreasonable, but this just doesn't "do it" for me (hopefully I'm the minority because I really want this car to be a success, even if I don't have one).

[Mechie3]

Somebody with better photoshop skills than me should try grafting on different front bumpers to the 818R.

[GUNS]

Here are my initial observations. I love the rear quarter of the car! Nice wide curves and I'm anxious to see how this flows with the rear. Now the part I don't like, the front. The headlights look way to big for the car and I don't like the pure horizontal alignment, it makes it look too plain. I also don't like how high the center of the hood is. I would love to see this part dip down a bit accentuating the wheel arches (ie similar to the Exige pictured above or Rodney's design). I also agree with the comments about the grill, seems too busy.

Overall it's not bad. I'm definitely not blown away, but as it stands I would still build one. I'm anxious to see more angles and the street version. Thanks for the hard work Dave and all at FFR. Feed us more pics if you can!

[ScottKoschwitz]

I like it. Can't put my finger on specific changes, but it looks swoopier, with some nice curves and flares. Is there a little Coke bottle design in the middle, or is the paint scheme playing with my eyes?

I thought of the Lotus 2-11 when I saw it, and can see the GTM influence -- I like both of those attributes.

This is not HoF for me yet, but it definitely keeps my interest -- and that's all I expect at this stage.

[dbjr63]

i hate the front bumper cover (grill). i do like how low and smooth it looks. i hope the hardtop body will look more cutting edge than this one.

i still plan to buy the hardtop as long as it does not look like rice burner that i can buy from a dealership.

[leetfade]

Interesting concept. I agree on the grill / front-end not really being attention grabbing but we will see what the final version has! The rear lines (from what we can see) I really like!

[Drew P]

I think it looks great. I have been dreaming about what the final body would look like. I think it meets the design goals well. I'm wondering if the windshield from the roadster would be possible to add. I don't see a reason why it couldn't be. I know it is a track car, but I would still want to be able to drive it on the street without having to worry about getting hit in the face with rocks.

[shim2]

Looks good. A lot better than Jim's original design. Hell I'd buy it.

I actually like it quite a bit. First time I seen the CAD file posted a few weeks ago I was immediately turned off. This is a very good step forward and if it's the final body it will turn heads. Good job.

Someone with photoshop skills should throw a window onto it. See how the 818 would look.

[BipDBo]

If first impressions are really what you're looking for, when I first saw it, I nearly yelled out loud:
"HOLY SH_T!!"

Looks awesome.

I was critical on a few points over the preliminary renderings:
* Camry headlights: These no longer look like they came from a Camry or anything else OEM. :)
* Humps behind seats: They looked wrong without seeing it with the screen and roll bar, but now, at least from this angle, they look great. :)

Also a surprise is the lack of a full windshield and no doors. I notice a bar extending from the roll hoop forward blocking any possibility of doors. This is how I originally envisioned the track model, but had thought a different direction was taken. I think it's a good path. Without doors and windshield, I would speculate that the track version is slightly lighter than the 1800# goal. It 's likely a bit safer without the doors as well. Any plans for more cage work? These surprises definitely differentiate this version a bit from the road version.

The only think that I might be critical of are scoops that might not do anything. Faux air scoops look really tacky to me. I'm not sure why there would need to be scoops on both the top and sides of the rear fender. Also, what do the scoops in front of the front wheels do? If these scoops have a function, then great, keep em. Otherwise, I'd rather see smooth bodywork.

Since the cat is out of the bag, I wouldn't mind seeing some more angles.

This track version, though looks to be a perfect low cost one-design series racer. I'll be waiting for a coupe version, something that could be a daily driver, but this makes me excited t see the other versions (eventually).

For everyone with less enthusiastic responses, in my experience, bad looking cars usually look worse in person and good looking cars usually look much better. I'd bet this will look awesome in the flesh.

[Mechie3]

As long as the scoop are opened (ie, not solid closed like older mustang scoops) I like them. Some cooling for the motor/trans, and it says "oh, hey....the motor is back here guys" :lol: I think it looks more aggressive with the scoops.

I would actually DD the track version, but wear a helmet. After seeing how my WRX front end folded up last Tuesday and how I walked away with little more than a bruise, I've become a little more safety conscious. I was always comfortable with my driving abilities, I'm just now even less comfortable with others (especially those that run red lights).

[scartaan]

I agree with most of the comments. The 2-tone paint @ the doors lighten the look and add appeal. I was hoping for more Rodney influence, however. His more
Coke-bottle approach and short overhangs had a McLaren F1 type look to it. Does the picture of the Olmos coupe on the main site indicate anything?

[PhyrraM]

Styling is bland. However, I was always in the 'it's the engineering and performance that will sell it' camp. (or more infamously "Styling won't matter")

I do find it curious how when it was suggested a few weeks ago that the final design could be a revamp of Jims design, many shut the thought down as not possible. (Because Dave stated "Jim's design is dead"?)

[Mike N]

http://worldautomodification.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2012-Lotus-Exige-S-Front-Angle-588x441.jpg

Graft these grill openings and splitter onto the FFR rendering shown and you would add a bit of that edginess back. Can anyone PS that quickly?

[07FIREBLADE]

Only if it had the grille of the exige then it would be hotter imo... Like what others said the front end is a little to bland. Hopefully the street version will be up this week so we can see the differences.

[shim2]

Grill does need a bit more work. Also, I think the reason they left the vents on the rear fenders is because it's functional and probably is only way for air to get to intercooler. At least that's my guess.

[07FIREBLADE]

I think many people shot down the idea that it would be revamp design of Jim's was because they were hoping it wouldn't be true and if there was enough protest then they might change it some more to make it better or different all together. The only changes that I would like to see done to this model on it would be HoF would be a different front end with more of Xabier's influence or the exige, and the humps to go a bit higher and surround the roll bar a bit more like the porsche 918 spyder.

[metalmaker12]

Graft these grill openings and splitter onto the FFR rendering shown and you would add a bit of that edginess back. Can anyone PS that quickly?

I agree with most of you that the overall car is good looking, but the front grill sections needs more openings to make me happier. I am still buying it, but hope the front end gets an update

[ncmcn]

Sold!

[RM1SepEx]

Mad Dog, Dave said post a few before the open house... let's see some more including a street version

I think a tweaked Xabier's design would have stood out more, been more unique

I'm happy with the design and look forward to building one as soon as possible. It looks like an evolution a baby GTM with the haunches, big scoops on the sides... My way laid donor is on the road again be here by Thursday for sure!

As an old fart I think it looks very well done with strong sharp lines that accent the expected power of the car. Are we going to need wider wheels or spacers in the rear to fill out those wheel wells?

[Gary in NJ]

It's a rear/mid engine car, it doesn't require a large frontal area. The opening needs to be large enough to get adequate air through the radiator. No more.

I don't seeing adding grill space for looks, especially when you consider the drag that such an opening would create.

[dbjr63]

Why make the grill bigger? Keep it clean and smooth just like the GTM. Also make the grill opens on the hood bigger (like the GTM).

[Sebxb]

Ok it's the first time I modify a car in Paint so please be indulgent! hehe

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/forkboy442/818-2.jpg

[BipDBo]

From the website:
10002
10003

[shim2]

That fuel tank looks small. Sub 10 gallon?

[Xusia]

I like it, and will probably buy one when roll up windows are an option. Still, it's not quite exotic looking to me. I was hoping for something that hints a bit more - not screams - that it is exotic and not to be trifled with.

[Mike N]

10004

Just blacking out the grill openings helps a little but I think they need to be reshaped to really make it work for me. Bottom line is that making those types of modifications will not be that difficult or expensive for a lot of the people likely to build the 818.

[leetfade]

Not bad. Still not 100% on the front and agree it really doesn't say exotic as much as modded import but still a good looking car.

[Mechie3]

The grill on the GTM reminds me more of an Aston Martin. The grill on this reminds me more of a tight lipped catfish. The reasons for a larger grill would be styling and aggressive looks. Look at how many porsches, lambos, lotus', or ferrari's have large grills.

[SccrMan13]

IMO the headlights should have been smaller and done like most of the TVRs http://www.tvrna.com/. They could have pulled a lot of cues from TVR and made an aggressive looking machine instead of what looks like a porsche and toyota mashup. I would still drive one purely from a $$$ to performance standpoint, but this is disappointing.

[07FIREBLADE]

Lets get some pics of the rear end too... Come on Mad Dog... Dont pull a Dave and leave us hanging..

[Evan78]

Looks like too little cage for a track version and too little windshield for a street version.

[sonicrex]

Yeah, I'm out.

[slopoke]

I can only hope that this is just a teaser and the REAL 818 wil be shown on Saturday at the open house. I had a fire extinguisher next to my desk, but guess I won't be needing it any time soon. ... it's like expecting steak and eggs for breakfast and getting oatmeal.

[mug23]

This is my first post on this forum and I have been looking around lately for the 818 project. I was at first very excited to see Xabier's design on the web site on the R version of the 818 as I have a donor car/parts in my garage ready to go. Now after seeing the update picture of this project, I'm much disappointed on this design as it's just....... plain jane. Nothing really special about it to grab your attention. The front end seem so long as I just don't understand why for a mid-engine car, that the front end has to be this long?

I really hope that in the production version they will put some more curves back into the design and my goal is to get the hard top version to make into a track car. If the design doesn't change much for the production version, there's a good chance that I'm out.

[leetfade]

I'm sure this is why Dave is a little gun-shy to present any pics / renderings until something more concrete is completed. Many will just jump ship and never check back and it could still be going through modifications. The reality is, until SEMA, nothing is fully unveiled. Until the kits are in production, nothing is concrete.

[shim2]

In my opinion. I think factory five is so use to making domestic replica kit cars it's a bit challenging to make something exotic and it shows. It's too bad, I like the design, it's by no means HoF worthy. I would buy it and be happy with it.

[kach22i]

I made several changes to Sebxb's effort.

1. Head light to single (now shorter/smaller). Still would like to play with it.
2. Shortened the front overhang by at least a half a foot, giving it a stockier stance. Less arc to hood curve too.
3. Added a vertical shadow line for an air-curtain at the front grille for some function and character.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/Modify-818-2.jpg

This design is far less exotic looking than it could have been, which is disappointing, at least for me.

Something like Rodney O's front would do wonders for this car.

[0100]

I'm in the "not liking the front end" camp. Just can't put my finger on why I dislike it. From the middle of the front wheel back I love it.

My plan is 100% track car, so I'm not too concerned with looks. I will just order it in black. Black hides everything. :)

Have an option for no headlights. If it really is a track car, headlights are not needed. Drops weight off the front, makes the car build easier and cheaper, and I think in this case might make the car look a whole lot better. This is unless you plan on running 24hr races which is not going to be many. Also I suggest going with a 5 star wheel for the SEMA car. Just too many spokes in the wheel pictured for the lines of the car. Little more aggressive offset too!

So who is going to do a nice 5 star wheel photoshop?

Also can someone photoshop the 818R with no headlights?

[shim2]

I'm also with the guys that don't like the front end. Looks like it was an after thought. It doesn't flow with the car at all. I really like the rest of the car from that point. To me that's the final design I would be buying it with the intention of altering the front a bit. It's too boxy, too nascar-ish

[shinn497]

Ok it's the first time I modify a car in Paint so please be indulgent! hehe

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/forkboy442/818-2.jpg

Looks good actually.

You know dave never actually said how distinct the track and street bodies would be. We don't know for sure if it will look like this. It could be the the track vesion is sleeker and with less protruding bits. Can anyone do a ver of this with a black lip?

@ Kach22i Didn't you at one point say that you thought more "exoic" looking designs were gimmicky which is why you modify them so much.

[David]

Bingo!! You nailed it...

Completely different demographic and a market probably 10x the roadster. Way more people can and will part with an all purpouse toy at $15k compared to the roadster/GTM cost of double and tripple that. Same goes for the track version of the 818. While incredibly cool, being a track only toy really limits its market compared to the street car.

David


I've seen two extreme examples so far with the ZR1 and on another thread the "Atom Smasher" discussion. These are exotic technologies compared to the 818 project which really don't compare.

The main reason for marketing the street version is because of a real difference in the potential customers. If you have seen the multitudes of WRX, STI, etc out there that go buzzing by you on a daily basis, you know that those are not 40 to 55 guys but a completely different demographic. So the DD is also the race toy however much or little they really race. When I was 17, I had a 55 Chevy big block with street slicks (two grooves cut in an 11 in slick) and a flip fiberglass front end. I raced it some legally and on the street but 95% of the time it was my DD. If it was broken, I walked or borrowed my mother's car. Shift forward to 2012. There are a lot of guys just like that who can afford to be in an 818 which is a natural progression for them with the familiar technology. This has not and will not be like any other experience for FFR as the roadster, spec racer, GTM, hot rod, and coupe are going to customers of a different age and economic demographic (statistically speaking). IMO WEK.

[shinn497]

I'm sorry were you talking to me?

EDIT: I was wrong.


"Race and track versions will have the same core body shape"
-Dave

[shim2]

We've made some updates to the website and Dave told me he wanted to post a few images before Open House. Here is the 818-R concept. It is a evolution of Jim's original design in a track car focused body.

Are we going to get the rest of them? Because 1 isn't a few lol. :)

[pmmjarrett]

I love the concept of the car..... but I don't like the front and headlights at all.

On the positive side, it is fiberglass and it wouldn't take much to change a few things. It's a good base for someone to work with if they want to make changes.

Simply cutting out the upright bars in the grill, opening the front vents close to the fender for brake cooling and pulling a mold off the center horizontal bar to place one above it and one bar below it and pushing the splitter further out gives it more of an agressive look similar to an Audi R8.

Headlights.... I ain't figured that out yet. I hate those Camry headlights.

10025

[DrieStone]

IOn the positive side, it is fiberglass and it wouldn't take much to change a few things. It's a good base for someone to work with if they want to make changes.

Other than unless you're clever, you're adding a few grand to the cost because you'll have to pay for paint.

[shim2]

Is the body coming pre painted? I was under the impression it needed sanding/body work like the other kits.

[StatGSR]

^ body is supposed to come completed and not need painting (gel coat or similar depending on build materials)

[Flamshackle]

I can see why they went for Jim's design... And concur it looks like the GTM's little brother.

I have to say I am a little disappointed though. More than that I am certainly confused about the choice in regards to Dave Smith saying they were not going to pursue this design?

all that said...i think It looks good... but im sorry to say it did not set my HOF

Maybe it's a design that will grow on us?

To sumarize my thoughts I think it's not a bad direction FFR have taken.
Those that haven't followed this development will be the best judges of looks i think so will ask friends and family there take on it.

Also don't forget we got a swatch watch here so if you really dont like this concept design look out for the other styles to come :D

Good job FFR!

[Mechie3]

Has anyone considered that they released this rendering with Jim's nose because they wanted to save something for the open house/SEMA? If this was the end deal right now, it had a limited release and when the actual announcment comes, 1/2 the people that care say "oh...been there, done that, saw the pic".

If the nose is truly different, they can show that at the open house, or better yet, wait until SEMA. Not only with the new folks say "wow!" but those of us that already saw this pic will also be recaptured up in the hoopla.

Another possibility is they wanted to gauge the reaction of those who are already started to stockpile parts and donors. We're likely to be the early adopters and if they alienate us, they lose a quick influx of money at launch.

At least...that's what I'm hoping for. :)

[crash]

Looks a hell of a lot better than any Subi I've ever seen.

I don't think it looks bad, pretty good actually, but I also don't think that THAT will pass muster with any of the sanctioning bodies as far as safety is concerned. I just have never understood why a company called Factory Five Racing, as well as the other companies, don't build their cars to pass the safety requirements right from the get go. It makes ZERO sense to me...but I am not Dave Smith or the owner of a huge (relatively speaking) component car company.

I like the looks just fine.

[shinn497]

It is a possibility, but I think, from now on, you should just assume that this is the final design.

@cash. What about the challenge car? They tailored it for its own spec series. There is nothing that says they can't do the same thing for the 818. I'm also starting to think that the design is trying to reflect that of a production subby. Or maybe it is the color...

[Sultan]

Get a fire extinguisher my hair is on fire! DAMN!! Love it! Great work!!!

[skullandbones]

Ok it's the first time I modify a car in Paint so please be indulgent! hehe

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/forkboy442/818-2.jpg

That's really sad looking. I hope the street version is alot different or I don't think I could go that route. Since I am leaning toward a Targa or maybe a coupe, I shouldn't be too disappointed though.

Please, come up with a Targa add on. Even if it bolts on which would probably be better (modular). Here's hoping the street version takes a different path.

WEK.

[pmmjarrett]

Other than unless you're clever, you're adding a few grand to the cost because you'll have to pay for paint.

If I couldn't modify and paint something this ugly I wouldn't buy it. I'm still patiently waiting to be impressed by project 818.

[shim2]

I think this is the final version Dave posted it on FB saying that it's the 818R. So I'm pretty sure the 818 won't look much different than this.

[Kalstar]

I would still buy it...

The GTM does not look as good in pics as it does in person. I am guessing the 818 will be the same way. I do believe there were better designs submitted but I am not so disapointed that I wouldn't put one in my garage. Looking forward to seeing the street version as I have no interest in a track model.

Can't make everyone happy, but overall this car will be a great success.

[myjones]

[QUOTE=Dave Smith;61369]Oppie: Milk Crate = I've been away from the forum so long I was put on a milk carton (I should've said Milk carton)
/QUOTE]
Either one works for me, I would bet at some point you have driven an unfinished car while sitting on a milk crate. Yes or No ??

The Sema car should be an 818BL <>Barely legal. That would show the real world application for the bulk of the buyers and the performance specs
when built that way. From there they can envision adding or subtracting to go daily driver with more comfort or BTTW racer.
DB
HR#431

[VTX]

Yeah, I really am not that crazy about it. I don't think it looks bad, but certainly not HOF that I was expecting. To me, driving that around in street version, most people will probably confuse it with a lot of other 2-seaters (miata, S2000, etc.). I was hoping for something that would really look different and turn some heads.

Maybe I will feel different when I see some other angles and in street trim...

[Jeff Kleiner]

I've been maintaining all along that Jim's was the only one that was going to be buildable within the design parameters and cost & weight constraints.


Yeah, I'm out.

Were ya' ever really in? No disappointment here; I'm not a poser and am more of a function before form guy so I'm still in :)

Jeff

[EvilJack]

Agreed it is not a ugly car, but it doesn't wow me. If this car were given to me I wouldn't throw it outta my garage, but sorry guys. $15k is a lot of money for me at the moment. So I cannot justify spending that money on something that is "just ok". If I am gonna spend that much on a "toy" its needs to make me go wow ever time I open up my garage. I still have hope for this project. Its possiable that the coupe/high milage version will have a different look. Its also possiable that they could always make different body designs in the future. Maybe they will even offer a chassie only kit like they do for the '33 roadster. I would actually be willing to go that route. Buy the chassie, built the go-kart up and then design my own body.

For now, I will just wait and see what happens.

[fritts]

I really don't understand why there was even a design competition if they were just going to choose a design in house. This design is not HOF. Dave talked about the tooling for the body being cut so I don't have any hope of this version or the standard version changing. Wondering whether it will be worth the tear up to do something with the front end for me to like it enough to buy now.

[shim2]

I'm definitely still in, looking forward to building it. Even if it looks exactly like that. It's not all about looks. It's by no means butt ugly, it's not stunning either. I like it and I'm going to buy it when it's available.

[D2W]

The good things: The rear humps integrate with the roll bar much better than I thought they would. The body looks pretty good from the front wheels back. I like the rockers and rear side vents.

The bad: Even though the nose has been improved slightly the whole design is bland. As someone else said, you could take it to a tuner show and it wouldn't stand out at all. The paint scheme helps by making the belt line look swoopier but in reality its flat and boring. The headlights are too big. I understand the need to use a production car headlight, there just had to be a better choice. The front end was made busy looking because without the busyness it would also big big, flat and boring.

In the end I would say this doesn't come close to HOF. At first I was like, hey that looks pretty good, but then I examined closer and realized that it was mostly the paint scheme. A great design should be able to stand on its own in a simple color. I'm not really sure why they even had the design contest with all its great designers if they were going to give us this. Especially after it was almost universally disliked and Dave said it was out. I guess changing the front a little and slapping on some fancy graphics is the same as starting over. What's the point of crowd-sourcing if you don't listen. In the end my opinion is this is an epic fail for FFR. Dave had the oportunity to knock our socks off, and all he did was show us how good it could have been.:(

[sonicrex]

Were ya' ever really in?

Well of course, it's why I registered here.

Really though if this is "HOF" and "world class looks" then I'm not sure what to think but as always it's just an opinion.

[RedJoker]

I don't hate the design but I think it's a bit bland as well. I'm currently building brother Mark's G3F (which is also a fairly bland design) but I'm ok with that as it will be a daily driver. I was thinking of selling my FFR roadster and building an 818 as my toy car. I haven't given up on that yet but I was hoping the 818 would be more exotic.

[Mechie3]

Agree it does seem a little fruitless to do a design competition and then rather blatantly drop almost every unique design cue from the winners. I realize some of it may be due to cost and ease of manufacture. I just looked up the lotus 2-11 again and it has a single grill opening. It's more rounded, symmetric only left to right, not L-R and top to bottom. Something like that would flow much better on the 818 and still be easy to manufacture.

http://www.finalsense.com/news/image/auto/lotus-2-eleven.jpg


EDIT: Just "running my mouth" now

The original small scale Jim model looks like it took some design cues from the F50 combined with a mazda.
http://autofeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Ferrari-supercar-mid-engine-hybrid-official-press-release.jpg
http://www.hamminkperformance.nl/nl/media/Images/818.jpg

The Henessey Venom GT also has a single grill opening that looks a bit better:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2010/03/01-venom-gt-official-dark-630op2.jpg

If you really want a square centered grill opening, something like this would work, though it looks a bit dated by now.

http://www.thesupercars.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/1994-eb110-ss-side-view.jpg

[kach22i]

@ Kach22i Didn't you at one point say that you thought more "exoic" looking designs were gimmicky which is why you modify them so much.
I'm sure that I said something to that effect, but to put it in the context I recall, it went something like this.

gimmicky = Laser 917 kit car

Saker GT = a little too exotic for the 818 platform

Artega GT = just about what I thought the 818 could look like

K1 Attack = too hot or exotic for what I thought it should be

RCR Superlite = love it, but a bit too hot looking for the base Subie platform

What I thought the FFR 818 should/could look like is a Boxster with a bad boy attitude but not Porsche looking at all.

What I currently seeing is thankfully not a S-2000, Miata, Boxster, MR2 3rd gen, or other similar class car or similar sized clone. However, not only is it very pedestrian looking, it's lacking a strong concept and identity.

It still looks to me as something painfully overworked, something which should have been crumple up and tossed into the waste bin while the designer awaited true inspiration which only a series of heartfelt defeats would have born.

Sometimes you need to work hard, not work hard on one idea. This is one idea which should have died long ago, but now I'm sounding a bit like olpro, so I'll just retire for the evening.

EDIT: I thought that I should explain with a crude picture what I meant earlier about maybe graphing on Rodney O's nose to Jim's body. Not really a suggestion, more like a "what if". The colors are different , the perspective angles do not match, and so forth. However this should give you a picture representing the idea that the face of the car could and perhaps should be change in a big way.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/Rodney-graph-818-2.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/Rodney-graph-818-bandw.jpg

[shim2]

http://www.hamminkperformance.nl/nl/media/Images/818.jpg

That is hideous. The design that was shown today, thank God is a step forward from that. If that was what they were going to run with from the beginning they should have canceled project 818. BUT I do see how people are upset, because the design posted today isn't that far off from the one quoted.

[RM1SepEx]

We've made some updates to the website and Dave told me he wanted to post a few images before Open House. Here is the 818-R concept. It is a evolution of Jim's original design in a track car focused body.

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/818poster.jpg

I see ONE image... so let's see the street version and a couple other views... Dave said a few... not just one! :-)

[shim2]

Starting to rethink what I said. It seems to me like Factory Five doesn't listen to people on the forum. That's basically a redesign of Jim's original. What was the point in getting ALL of those people designing cars if none of their ideas were going to be implemented? All of their hard work for nothing. The color scheme of the 818R really plays tricks on the mind, but when you compare it to the original it's not that much different. Paint it silver and it won't be much different. I REALLY hope they change that or are yanking our chains because I don't think that's going to be as successful as they are hoping if this is what's going to be at SEMA.

[Vman7]

hmmm....well to begin with, it's a huge improvement from Jim's orig. The design flows better, at least from this view, depends on what the rear looks like. I do love the seat humps, always have. Kind of have mixed feeling about the front though as in the venting area, not bad, but I think it could be better. The headlight area looks way to large. Other then that, the design actually works pretty well.

This is a good start!!! well done Dave, Jim & FFR :)

My first impression was it doesn't look like a kit car, and for me that speaks volumes.

Now does it set my HoF, not even close, but that's just me, I am more of a classic styling kind of person, but for a track version it might just work.

David

[smoove7410]

I think from the windshield forward, it needs some work. Would anything stop someone from making the track version road legal? I like the open canopy.

[D2W]

I just went back and looked at some of the contest entries and now I'm even more disappointed. Xabier's design was graceful and racy, Rodney's was maybe a bit cartoonish to start but with his modifications became a real head turner. There were others like Shawn Whetstone's that were simple yet unusual. I guess I'm just disappointed in what could have been:(

[Dave Smith]

After running Factory Five for 17 years I get pretty thick-skinned and can take honest criticism quite well. The 818 project needs honesty, no doubt... BUT I am puzzled here. I can't explain some of the feedback being SO HUGELY negative ("I'm out, catfish mouth, sad, disappointed, chick car, something so ugly, a Hyundai Tiberon, pedestrian looking, should be crumpled up and tossed into the waste-bin!??").

I just don't see that.

I have appreciated the intelligent, well considered feedback regarding this important and serious product, but some of this flies against common sense and what is obvious. Heck, I LOVE this track design on a million levels and it’s the only one I’ve shown! The thing is a lotus Elise, Porsche 911, Corvette and BMW KILLING MACHINE... ALL on a working man's budget! Perhaps the truth is that scale models, drawings and even accurate CAD files NEVER translate well. When I see this image, the ONLY thing I can think about is getting behind the wheel, dropping the hammer, and embarrassing some jerk in a Ferrari...

I gotta sleep on this feedback. The project is wayyy too important and has too many excellent and well-thought-out directions to be executed on, to be at risk doing this with half-baked releases and amatuer clips of track testing. I may be hurting the team by trying to answer your questions prematurely.
Truth is that I know EXACTLY what I am doing and the team is doing something that I KNOW no other company can accomplish. While honest feedback always helps, I think at this point, I have to reconsider releasing any additional information until we unveil the car at SEMA. The design team and their motivation is crucial this summer and we have so much good momentum that I don't want it deflated just trying to show in-process developmental images and videos. I did ask for the feedback!

We do presently have an excellent and varied group of customers, suppliers, and candid professionals who can continue to help steer the development team thru these challenging waters, and can do this in a professional and constructive way. I have an absolute, unshakable and resolute commitment to this project and to making sure it meets its lofty design goals. The best path to meeting those goals may be along a different course than here. I have to think hard on this with the ONLY important goal being the success of the project in the end.

The design competition was valuable in many ways and, like so many other things, has influenced the path we've been on. Tremendous changes were made to this design and others. The company has spent an inordinate amount of time listening regardless of the perception. I have some thinking to do. Thanks to all of you for your passion thru this process.

[RM1SepEx]

I'm with you Dave my checkbook is ready and donor ready to take apart... I'm waiting in line and really love the looks as far as I've seen... My order is ready and waiting...

[Vman7]

I view this somewhat more from an overall perspective, with all things being considered, such as performance, looks, price point, production etc. Pretty amazing how much as been done in a short time span, considering the big boys ie. GM, Ford etc. takes years before they ever hit the streets.

So I say still be patient. Look at all the development changes the other cars FFR has designed. Just like a good wine, give it time! Rome wasn't built in a day!......lol

[Smitty911]

After running Factory Five for 17 years I get pretty thick-skinned and can take honest criticism quite well. The 818 project needs honesty, no doubt... BUT I am puzzled here. I can't explain some of the feedback being SO HUGELY negative ("I'm out, catfish mouth, sad, disappointed, chick car, something so ugly, a Hyundai Tiberon, pedestrian looking, should be crumpled up and tossed into the waste-bin!??").

I just don't see that.

I have appreciated the intelligent, well considered feedback regarding this important and serious product, but some of this flies against common sense and what is obvious. Heck, I LOVE this track design on a million levels and it’s the only one I’ve shown! The thing is a lotus Elise, Porsche 911, Corvette and BMW KILLING MACHINE... ALL on a working man's budget! Perhaps the truth is that scale models, drawings and even accurate CAD files NEVER translate well. When I see this image, the ONLY thing I can think about is getting behind the wheel, dropping the hammer, and embarrassing some jerk in a Ferrari...

I gotta sleep on this feedback. The project is wayyy too important and has too many excellent and well-thought-out directions to be executed on, to be at risk doing this with half-baked releases and amatuer clips of track testing. I may be hurting the team by trying to answer your questions prematurely.
Truth is that I know EXACTLY what I am doing and the team is doing something that I KNOW no other company can accomplish. While honest feedback always helps, I think at this point, I have to reconsider releasing any additional information until we unveil the car at SEMA. The design team and their motivation is crucial this summer and we have so much good momentum that I don't want it deflated just trying to show in-process developmental images and videos. I did ask for the feedback!

We do presently have an excellent and varied group of customers, suppliers, and candid professionals who can continue to help steer the development team thru these challenging waters, and can do this in a professional and constructive way. I have an absolute, unshakable and resolute commitment to this project and to making sure it meets its lofty design goals. The best path to meeting those goals may be along a different course than here. I have to think hard on this with the ONLY important goal being the success of the project in the end.

The design competition was valuable in many ways and, like so many other things, has influenced the path we've been on. Tremendous changes were made to this design and others. The company has spent an inordinate amount of time listening regardless of the perception. I have some thinking to do. Thanks to all of you for your passion thru this process.

Dave,

I can only speak for myself, I like the Design as presented, with no modifications. The amount of work it took to get the project to this point is impressive. Ricky Nelson "You can't please everyone"

Don't let some of the negitive feedback worry the crew. Awesome job.

Smitty

[kabacj]

Well I like the design. It's not cartoonish or wild. It's obviously something that factoryfive can produce.

Dave do what you think is best for your company

You vote with your wallet we vote with ours

So far we like what you make. Building a car is not for everyone.

I'll admit I was a little worried about the design but you guys did just fine.

Show me one car under 50k that looks as cool as that!

Cheers.

John

[PhyrraM]

Dave, Dont go silent. Don't say anymore on the styling issue, that much is obvious.

Keep the technical details coming. Photos of the frame and little bits. Details of what you've used and not used from the donor. Tell us about your new partner for molding small plastic body parts. Let us know when Koni delivers the street car coilovers and how they react in the chassis.

That will keep 'us' engaged, and talking about stuff that motivates your team - instead of the 1000 pound gorilla that keeps making Jim say "I told you so".

[shim2]

Dave, Dont go silent. Don't say anymore on the styling issue, that much is obvious.

Keep the technical details coming. Photos of the frame and little bits. Details of what you've used and not used from the donor. Tell us about your new partner for molding small plastic body parts. Let us know when Koni delivers the street car coilovers and how they react in the chassis.

That will keep 'us' engaged, and talking about stuff that motivates your team - instead of the 1000 pound gorilla that keeps making Jim say "I told you so".

I agree, I don't think going silent for 5 months is going to help much. For the price point, you honestly hit the nail on the head. There isn't a car on the road that would look like that for 15 grand and actually have performance. From a personal standpoint, well everyone has an opinion and they all aren't the best. I'm neutral. I like it I'd buy it, it could be better, it could be much much worse.

[mhatter]

I think the only thing that needs to change is opening up the front a little. Don't change the shape, just remove a little material to make the front-end as aggressive as the rest of the design.

[formfollowsfunction]

PLEASE don't go silent due to some negative comments, lots of us come here everyday to check the progress. You guys are doing an amazing job. Thanks for the sneak peak, it is appreciated.

[fateo66]

I aswell feel quite let down by this design. The body itself is not bad but its definitely not great by any means. I fully agree with the statements saying something along the lines of; the car will just blend in too much and it looks more or less like many of the other 2 seater coupes out there (solstace, Z4, etc) and just wont turn heads other then once it blows by them.

I feel that keeping the body design hidden for so long it ended up raising the bar if you will and since there were so many other great bodies improved namily RodneyO's during the process we all felt that the final body design too would be just as great and improved. To me Jim's car is still the same.... It looks way too much like the 818's biggest competitor....the Murtaya which even though is a few hundred pounds heaver it is an AWD subaru based kit car.

http://static.autoblog.nl/images/wp/AdrenalineMotorsport_Murtaya_1.jpg

[kach22i]

I did ask for the feedback!
Do yourself and your team a favor Dave.

Present the track version at SEMA without headlights.

Just place a flush fiberglass panel over the opening for now.

Give yourself time to solve this one last aesthetic issue, which seems to be at the center of discussion and controversy.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/noheadlights-818poster.jpg

[D2W]

Dave, as a design engineer I understand your resentment to to negative comments. The 818 is your baby and nobody wants to have anyone tell them there is something they don't like about it. But constructive criticism is just that, constructive. All of us who hang around here have been hoping for a car that not only sets our HOF with performance but also in the looks category. If you noticed not one negative comment came from the performance videos you posted. The car looks fast and fun. But we have seen all the great designs posted from the design contest. They have been discussed to death, and some of the designers even made improvements along the way. To get the in-house design with some minor changes after you said it was out was disheartening, at least to me and by the comments I'm sure others feel this way too. If you read the comments from your facebook site they were mostly positive. I'm guessing the difference is those people don't know what else you had to consider. I guess take it for what its worth. Eventually everyone will forget about the design contest and you will hopefully have a successful product. In the end you can say you truly designed this car yourselves.

[0100]

Oh man Dave, I hope you don't stop giving us updates, just because a few guys on the forum are disappointed with the design. It's what going to keep the guys, like me, who really want to build one of these, still interested over the year.

I can't wait to get one of these on Lime Rock Park!!!

Will you be able to offer a track version without headlights, to save weight, cost, and build time for the true track junkie?

Let me just add this happens on pretty much every new car that is revealed. Check the car forums of any new model that is revealed and the negative nit picking threads are borderline insane.

[apexanimal]

i'm still all in on the price and performance characteristics of this car...

and given those, i understand there are limitations to what can be done... but when we all started to talk about "hair on fire" as being the basis for the design, that i don't personally see... but AGAIN on the budget and what this car is capable of, i'll still more than likely purchase one...



can someone photoshop that car in all one color? i think it would help see the lines and details on the rendering...

[Mike N]

Dave I think that may be you are way over reacting to the comments. With few exceptions the crowd here is 100% behind you and shutting them out is not going to help things amongst your strongest supporters. IMHO there are some things that could do with a little tweaking but definitely not wadding the whole thing up and throwing in the trash, there is just so much that is spectacular about the car and the concept to do that. I think that if you read between the lines in this thread that you can get the underlying feeling from the posts here that the styling needs a little something to make it distinctive. If you have committed to molds already then I guess it is what it is, but if not why not get one or more of the design winners to throw some sculpting clay against the current scale models and spice them up a bit. Opening up the grill area, contouring the hood a little, may be an accent line or two could make a huge difference. Please don't go hide in a cave until SEMA.

[Nuul]

The thing is a lotus Elise, Porsche 911, Corvette and BMW KILLING MACHINE... ALL on a working man's budget!

Exactly. I like the way the car looks but that's not why I'm here; if I wanted flashy I'd buy a Ferrari replicar kit. It hauls ***, looks awesome and can be built for less than the price of a good econobox...sign me up.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Dave,
My brutally honest opinion, one that I've held for a long time and which may not be popular, is that many of the most vocal critics are not now nor will they ever be customers for this car. Hating on the styling is just today's topic. For some of these armchair stylists if it wasn't the lines they'd diss it's exhaust note, or the deal breaker would be the lack of a soft/targa/hard top or roll up windows or room for a 700 watt subwoofer or space for 2 sets of golf clubs or that it doesn't look "exotic enough" when posing in front of a restaurant.

Don't sweat it. No matter what you do it isn't going to please everyone but you know who your core is---guys like me; g-force junkies who dig the versatility and performance. We build em', run the snot out of them on the track, autocross every couple of weeks, drive 'em to the grocery store and take our wives for ice cream in them.

The 818 is exactly what I expected; I truly like the styling and know the performance will be there! Im in...in fact I'll put my hand in the air to be in as a beta ;)

Jeff

[Benji]

Dave, I can understand if this was the first time you'd shown that design or a similar one but it's not, Jim's design has always been met with mixed/negative emotions, certainly not the HOF reaction you were looking for so I find it surprising you seem surprised at the reaction?

I think everyone is also confused/disappointed as to why/what the point was of the whole competition, when it seems that many of the competition entries (even some of the winners) DID have that HOF factor and the in-house design by Jim was chosen over them.

Maybe there is more too it as to why those designs weren't chosen, perhaps design issues that meant they weren't feasible? Perhaps legal issues around using them? If such restrictions did occur, why not present the reasons why certain other more favoured entries weren't chosen?

[roglesby]

I love curry, but I could not eat it every day.

The risk of pushing the envelope on the design is in creating something that grows tiresome too quickly. Today it's HoF. Next week it's a Bradley GT. I think their challenge is in coming up with a design that is spicy enough to satisfy the need, but not so far out there that in 6 months or a year everyone is complaining. After a half century the Cobra still looks awesome. Very few cars can say that, and I'm certain there are other cars of that era that you would mock for their 'style'. The cars that is most true of are those that were HoF at the time.

Careful what you wish for.

[bobzdar]

After running Factory Five for 17 years I get pretty thick-skinned and can take honest criticism quite well. The 818 project needs honesty, no doubt... BUT I am puzzled here. I can't explain some of the feedback being SO HUGELY negative ("I'm out, catfish mouth, sad, disappointed, chick car, something so ugly, a Hyundai Tiberon, pedestrian looking, should be crumpled up and tossed into the waste-bin!??").

I just don't see that.

I have appreciated the intelligent, well considered feedback regarding this important and serious product, but some of this flies against common sense and what is obvious. Heck, I LOVE this track design on a million levels and it’s the only one I’ve shown! The thing is a lotus Elise, Porsche 911, Corvette and BMW KILLING MACHINE... ALL on a working man's budget! Perhaps the truth is that scale models, drawings and even accurate CAD files NEVER translate well. When I see this image, the ONLY thing I can think about is getting behind the wheel, dropping the hammer, and embarrassing some jerk in a Ferrari...

I gotta sleep on this feedback. The project is wayyy too important and has too many excellent and well-thought-out directions to be executed on, to be at risk doing this with half-baked releases and amatuer clips of track testing. I may be hurting the team by trying to answer your questions prematurely.
Truth is that I know EXACTLY what I am doing and the team is doing something that I KNOW no other company can accomplish. While honest feedback always helps, I think at this point, I have to reconsider releasing any additional information until we unveil the car at SEMA. The design team and their motivation is crucial this summer and we have so much good momentum that I don't want it deflated just trying to show in-process developmental images and videos. I did ask for the feedback!

We do presently have an excellent and varied group of customers, suppliers, and candid professionals who can continue to help steer the development team thru these challenging waters, and can do this in a professional and constructive way. I have an absolute, unshakable and resolute commitment to this project and to making sure it meets its lofty design goals. The best path to meeting those goals may be along a different course than here. I have to think hard on this with the ONLY important goal being the success of the project in the end.

The design competition was valuable in many ways and, like so many other things, has influenced the path we've been on. Tremendous changes were made to this design and others. The company has spent an inordinate amount of time listening regardless of the perception. I have some thinking to do. Thanks to all of you for your passion thru this process.

I think we were all expecting something awesome and cutting edge after all the design work that was done. Instead we got something that's 'merely' good, and I understand that. It's probably better to not put forth a potentially polarizing design when so much is riding on the car, but I think more was expected, right or wrong. It's a big improvement over the silver car, but what I think is bothering people is that there were 2 or 3 designs that everybody liked and you guys decided to refine a design that very few liked instead of one that very few disliked. That after saying that it was dead.

Get rid of the bar across the front and I think it loses that catfish appearance and looks smoother while positively distancing itself from the silver car, but the fact is that it's a conservative design. People will not be clamoring for the car on appearance alone, but that's fine as the performance is there and the design won't put people off. It's still a very good car, it just won't be off the charts. I don't think you'll be putting many people off with the styling, which is a good thing.

Regarding going silent, why would you not want the feedback? I don't think burying your head in the sand will help anything. If that's the final design, so be it, let's see the street version and more of the chassis (which I think has been universally praised).

[kach22i]

Change the headlights and call it a day, just about anything will be better.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/new-headlights-818poster.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/head3-818-2.jpg

[shim2]

I like the camry headlights. Front needs some work IMO, but overall with a good paint job it's a pretty nice car for 15 grand. I've been reading on other forums around the internet and there seems to be overall liking for the car. So I don't think Dave should be too upset about the opinions here. Everywhere else it's pretty positive, I think that's due in part to the fact that people here have seen the design competition and know what else was out there; and were hoping it would look a little more like the contest winners which is understandable. Summary, I'm really excited and can't wait to see the transport truck pull into my driveway.

[bobzdar]

Here it is without the bar, distances itself from the silver car and if you were to paint the whole grill area black, it's probably most closely resemble Xabier's car in profile...

10041

[GUNS]

Dave,

I know this is not the response you were looking for, but I am also surprised that you are surprised. From what I can tell, this design is really about the same as Jim's original, just with a re-worked front bumper. You admitted that this design was not up to par and stated that it would not be the final choice. Well, here we are and it hasn't changed much.

I've been checking this forum multiple times a day every day ever since this project was announced. I even bought a donor WRX over a year ago b/c I was so excited about what you guys were doing. Now, for the first time I have to admit that my excitement has diminished a bit. It's not that this design is ugly, but I was really expecting you to take advantage of this situation and really produce something that looks as amazing as it will preform. Instead, for me it just looks good enough.

So I think why people are disappointed is because like myself, they have devoted a lot of time and energy to this project, especially those who submitted designs. We all have provided our inputs over the year and really felt like we were involved in the creation of this car. But now it feels as if those inputs fell on deaf ears.

I want to finish by saying that I really do appreciate what you and you your are doing. This is still an incredible project and I want to thank you for keeping us involved. Just realize that this community has become emotionally involved a and we feel it's important to voice our concerns.

Looking forward to the future development of the 818.

[Mechie3]

To clarify my comments...I'm in. I'm waiting for insurance to finish up so I can get (back) my donor car and start taking it apart. If you gave me exactly what you showed I would buy it. I still think the grill could be a little racier/exotic and so my comments are only meant to take what I see a 9/10 to a 10/10.

I think the problem with the criticism is everyone sees this project as "theirs" and a chance to get their exotic car for economy price. I saw the same thing with the BRZ on the Subaru forums. So many different ideas of what it could be, what it should be, what was good, what was bad. In the end, it came out good. Sure, it pissed off some people, but if one person wants red and one wants blue and they're mutually exlcusive, someone is going to be unhappy.

When I first saw that pic this morning I said "holy crap...that's awesome!" and went and showed three co workers within 5 minutes.

[0100]

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/new-headlights-818poster.jpg


That looks badass! Someone photoshop this in solid white, with black five star wheels. That would just be dandy...

[RM1SepEx]

I'm not that fond of the Camry lights but... It's an AMAZING package that looks great and will perform as well as any sports car for $15k with a 230hp wrx motor! Many have stated a wrx couldn't be bought for $5k but I bought a 05 wrx with 70k for 3500 delivered (in the next day or two, from 1000 miles away) $15,000 will be doable with a wrx donor with relatively low mileage.

I've been saying for months that we would get some sort of compromize dependant on manufacturing capabilities blending styling based on the design competition. Isn't that what we got? Cartoonish designs would be too polarizing, limiting sales. This design is smooth, strong and powerful, its clean lines should sell well.

It is AWESOME, I'm hoping to be a beta builder (hat's been tossed in for a long time) and won't wait for a delivery truck, I'll drive down and load it up!!!

This isn't the first time someone wailed and bailed... good bye...

Time for me to recondition and powder coat!

[shim2]

I'm not that fond of the Camry lights but... It's an AMAZING package that looks great and will perform as well as any sports car for $15k with a 230hp wrx motor! Many have stated a wrx couldn't be bought for $5k but I bought a 05 wrx with 70k for 3500 delivered (in the next day or two, from 1000 miles away) $15,000 will be doable with a wrx donor with relatively low mileage.

I've been saying for months that we would get some sort of compromize dependant on manufacturing capabilities blending styling based on the design competition. Isn't that what we got? Cartoonish designs would be too polarizing, limiting sales. This design is smooth, strong and powerful, its clean lines should sell well.

It is AWESOME, I'm hoping to be a beta builder (hat's been tossed in for a long time) and won't wait for a delivery truck, I'll drive down and load it up!!!

This isn't the first time someone wailed and bailed... good bye...

Time for me to recondition and powder coat!

Where did you buy the donor from?

[RM1SepEx]

Copart, details in the low buck build thread
troll as many insurance auction sites as you can... 1000 mile deliveries of a non driveable car cost too much ($1400)

[Stickshift84]

The more I look at it, the more that I love it.

Keep up the great work!!! And I look forward to seeing more in person at the open house.

[Flamshackle]

...The 818 project needs honesty, no doubt... BUT I am puzzled here. I can't explain some of the feedback being SO HUGELY negative ("I'm out, catfish mouth, sad, disappointed, chick car, something so ugly, a Hyundai Tiberon, pedestrian looking, should be crumpled up and tossed into the waste-bin!??").

I just don't see that.

It's been articulated well by some good mannered people above but to summarize I see it comes down to the age old problem of missunderstood communication and mismatched expectations.

1-You yourself said this design would be scrapped SO people were excited about/expecting something else entirely.
2-This design had the most negative feedback (and quite strongly negative) SO seeing this image today has brough up that historic content (even if it does look a lot better than previous)
3-The other designs had gathered a following with each member really hoping for their "Fav" (see my avatar) SO naturally when they saw the reveal today those that didn't get what they wanted felt deflated.


Dave Smith, I applaud your hard work, vision, interest in the online community and finally this final design, take all this feedback with a BIG pinch of salt :D I will still be buying one of these! It's grown on me in the short time today iv had to accept the surprise choice.

PS I also did an Facebook online survey asking people to rate this design from 1-10...
10=the coolest looking car you have ever laid eyes on
1=the ugliest form of transport that you have ever had the misfortune of being exposed to.

It was just as I thought! We have become to involved to see the wood from the trees!

Not a single result below six! And the average was 8!

Even my wife and mother gave it a 7 and this is for a marked up track car!

So take heart Dave! Trust your gut! People really do think this looks awesome!

People online may say very extreme or harsh things but they don't have the perspective or objectivity that the majority do without all those neiche tastes and forum blindness.

SO DAVE PLEASE KEEP TALKING AND SHARING THE REST OF THE DEVELOPMENT.
Please don't let 'the few spoil the brew'

[blueafro]

I'm puzzled by the length of the front overhang in the context of the cutaway. I'm also puzzled by the cage, which as crash points out won't be race legal and wouldn't be allowed at a lot of track days.

This design was roundly shouted down every other time it was shown, so the response now isn't surprising. No matter how it looks, FFR will probably sell as many of these things as they can build, but the design is a bit of a letdown. Not hideous, but not interesting either.

[305mouse]

I've been pretty silent with just doing a lot of reading the past few weeks. I do want to echo Mechie3 and Flamshackle and Vman. It is a reworked Jim design, but it does flow so much better than before. I like many other would like to tweek the front end a bit. I know you loved Xabier's track model from the get go, so I was expecting something along those lines and this seems to have borrowed more inspiration from that design.

Rodney's was out the box awesome and all the re-design he did really made it stand out. I guess with Rodney's it can be a very polarizing looking car. This design you showed us will reach a broader spectrum of buyers. It looks good, Caig sent me a text of it this morning and thought I could see that in my driveway.

Dave, do what you have to and what is best for your team. I think I can speak for all of us when I say we want this car to succeed. Some of us probably feel we are just as vested into this project as you are, which is in no way possible. Don't go dark for another 4 months, but I'll understand if the updates become even more limited. I don't want it to, I want to see everything I can about this car, but I'll understand if that's what happens.

[JBrown88]

I'm still as interested as I was when I first learned about the 818. There are minor things that can be improved, like the cage or the opening at the front. Y'all at FFR are far more experienced and knowledgeable about those topics and about the project as a whole than I am. The major thing is, as Dave pointed out, this car will have some serious killing power for a fraction of the cost. That's what will sell it, for me and others. If it can dance with Porsche's, Lotus's, and BMW's on a 15K budget, people will overlook grievances they have with the design, if any. I'll buy one as soon as I have the money for it.

[blueafro]

It's worth noting that feedback on GRM has so far been much more favorable than here:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/818-renderings/50279/page1/

[shim2]

Seems to be getting some good comments over at nasioc too.

[shim2]

http://i.imgur.com/Ny9ob.jpg
From a friend

[dclin]

After running Factory Five for 17 years I get pretty thick-skinned and can take honest criticism quite well. The 818 project needs honesty, no doubt... BUT I am puzzled here. I can't explain some of the feedback being SO HUGELY negative ("I'm out, catfish mouth, sad, disappointed, chick car, something so ugly, a Hyundai Tiberon, pedestrian looking, should be crumpled up and tossed into the waste-bin!??").

I just don't see that.

I have appreciated the intelligent, well considered feedback regarding this important and serious product, but some of this flies against common sense and what is obvious. Heck, I LOVE this track design on a million levels and it’s the only one I’ve shown! The thing is a lotus Elise, Porsche 911, Corvette and BMW KILLING MACHINE... ALL on a working man's budget! Perhaps the truth is that scale models, drawings and even accurate CAD files NEVER translate well. When I see this image, the ONLY thing I can think about is getting behind the wheel, dropping the hammer, and embarrassing some jerk in a Ferrari...

I gotta sleep on this feedback. The project is wayyy too important and has too many excellent and well-thought-out directions to be executed on, to be at risk doing this with half-baked releases and amatuer clips of track testing. I may be hurting the team by trying to answer your questions prematurely.
Truth is that I know EXACTLY what I am doing and the team is doing something that I KNOW no other company can accomplish. While honest feedback always helps, I think at this point, I have to reconsider releasing any additional information until we unveil the car at SEMA. The design team and their motivation is crucial this summer and we have so much good momentum that I don't want it deflated just trying to show in-process developmental images and videos. I did ask for the feedback!

We do presently have an excellent and varied group of customers, suppliers, and candid professionals who can continue to help steer the development team thru these challenging waters, and can do this in a professional and constructive way. I have an absolute, unshakable and resolute commitment to this project and to making sure it meets its lofty design goals. The best path to meeting those goals may be along a different course than here. I have to think hard on this with the ONLY important goal being the success of the project in the end.

The design competition was valuable in many ways and, like so many other things, has influenced the path we've been on. Tremendous changes were made to this design and others. The company has spent an inordinate amount of time listening regardless of the perception. I have some thinking to do. Thanks to all of you for your passion thru this process.

I'll have to echo others and say that I, too, am surprised that you're surprised. But a solution is easy enough; simply reaffirm there are going to be other bodies available at some future date, like you've been alluding to from the beginning. I hope you sell a million copies of Jim's design - I just need at least one copy of Rodney's version produced... for me of course. :)

[Twinspool]

I love it so far and am hugely excited to see the street version next. Chin up Dave, you ARE right and the true enthusiast knows that low lap times and grins as you carve that apex trump the "frosting" of the appearance.

I question the driver's creds of anyone claiming to jump ship based on aesthetics. This is an awesome machine that I would be proud to drive.

[slopoke]

Dave ... you're right ... this is the only one you've shown us ... are there others that have higher considerations? If so, it might be in the best interest of all to clarify this matter and move on with this project. You did make the members of this forum a promise of HoF. I have no doubt that this platform is capable of performing in spectacular fashion and is more than worthy of HoF styling ....and that seems to be the issue of so much discontent ... so what else have you got up your sleeve?

[skullandbones]

Hi Dave,
How thick is that skin? I don't believe you are going to have any trouble statisfying the racing crowd with your r version. But that was probably a given as you knew. However, I hope you do as promised with the HOF for the street version. I do expect that in the long run. This is going to be fun to post mortum when it's all said and done. That will most likely be an important chapter in that book, huh!! WEK.

[VTX]

Personally, I think other angles might help peoples' opinions. Not to mention show some solid colors without the graphics. It's a little hard to really read all the design cues with the graphics on there. I feel like it is an improvement from Jim's original design, but I'm just not quite sure if it's HOF until I see it from some other angles and in a solid color. That's just my opinion, but Dave, you obviously have to do what you think is best.

[818]

After running Factory Five for 17 years I get pretty thick-skinned and can take honest criticism quite well. The 818 project needs honesty, no doubt... BUT I am puzzled here. I can't explain some of the feedback being SO HUGELY negative ("I'm out, catfish mouth, sad, disappointed, chick car, something so ugly, a Hyundai Tiberon, pedestrian looking, should be crumpled up and tossed into the waste-bin!??").

I just don't see that.

I have appreciated the intelligent, well considered feedback regarding this important and serious product, but some of this flies against common sense and what is obvious. Heck, I LOVE this track design on a million levels and it’s the only one I’ve shown! The thing is a lotus Elise, Porsche 911, Corvette and BMW KILLING MACHINE... ALL on a working man's budget! Perhaps the truth is that scale models, drawings and even accurate CAD files NEVER translate well. When I see this image, the ONLY thing I can think about is getting behind the wheel, dropping the hammer, and embarrassing some jerk in a Ferrari...

I gotta sleep on this feedback. The project is wayyy too important and has too many excellent and well-thought-out directions to be executed on, to be at risk doing this with half-baked releases and amatuer clips of track testing. I may be hurting the team by trying to answer your questions prematurely.
Truth is that I know EXACTLY what I am doing and the team is doing something that I KNOW no other company can accomplish. While honest feedback always helps, I think at this point, I have to reconsider releasing any additional information until we unveil the car at SEMA. The design team and their motivation is crucial this summer and we have so much good momentum that I don't want it deflated just trying to show in-process developmental images and videos. I did ask for the feedback!

[snip]



Dave, I just registered today so I could post. I learned about the 818 about a month ago, and I've been reading the forums ever since. Amazingly, I found it when looking at the MK4 and trying to figure out how in my head to use my SRT-4 engine in it so I could have performance as well as fuel efficiency. The 818 is a brilliant idea, and I was extremely excited to see the splash on Yahoo! today.

I do hope you continue to give updates, however I understand the risks in doing so. Some of the worst designed vehicles came from too much input from the consumer (Pontiac Aztek, anyone?).

My two cents regarding your original question: I would wholeheartedly recommend showing off the street version. Why? Because as so many before me have put it, it's what most people are going to buy. The demographic is a "poor man's supercar" and by definition, a poor man cannot afford to own a daily driver and a separate race car. The beauty behind the 818 is that even in street form, you really have created the best of a street car and a race car. Aside from that, and no offense, but any company can build a race car kit. To FFR's quality/price? No, but the layperson can't tell chassis rigidity, proper suspension angles (ad nauseam) when passing by the 20th "race car" they've seen at SEMA. What they can do, just by looking at the street car, is say:
Wow, That's only $15k and I can drive it every day as well as placate my wife by vouching this will be my only car....and it get's xx mpg!?! Do you take American Express? Now? Plus it's much easier to provide promotional materials of the race version as people who want the race car will understand:

1. They are not the primary market (And thus will better accept the fact they have to imagine a few things
2. They can understand the difference between a stock two-pot brake system vs. the benefits of a 4-pot (And they already know what a nice Wilwood set looks like)
3. They can image how they would outfit it anyway since many race cars start out as "normal cars" with lots of OEM bits removed. (If you demo it with a recaro, they might want a cobra, or a sparco seat anyway....)

As far as body style (You didn't really ask for it, but my opinion anyway) I prefer a coupe, however if it's going to be as difficult to get in with the hard top as say my buddies' Exige, than I would rather have a removable hardtop panel (Just like the Exige/Elise). Going this way is probably cheaper as well as you can develop it later, and you don't have to build a dedicated coupe frame. I personally will want a roof of some kind over my head. I live in California, and I will daily drive this puppy 30k miles a year, however the reality of the fact is that I get sunburned big time, so I need a roof to cover me. I don't care about the windows at all, I'd be more interested in A/C even if there are no windows (For traffic). Nevertheless Project MGMT 101, feature bloat kills faster than anything else, so keep on keepin' on, and so far I'm extremely excited about the car.

[Doc_FFR]

The way I see it Dave you have three different groups going on here:

1) Racers who will buy the car because, as we all know, factory five racing engineers excellent performing cars.
2) Previous customers who might want another kit car.
3) "Virgins" who have never built a kit car before, but might be inspired to build one depending on how the 818 turns out.

From what I can see, group 1 is pleased. Many of them speak of how they were going to build this car no matter what it looked like.

People from group 2 do not seem to be as impressed. The other factory five kits all use a beautiful and/or iconic body start. To them, perhaps the body style you have presented does not match the quality of the kits they have purchased previously.

Some would say that group 3 is the most important group of all because it is the group you are trying to attract. Perhaps most of them had the idea of an exotic supercar that would be affordable. They feel the body style does not match their expectations. However, I believe most would agree with you that the car will rival a Porsche or Lotus on the track.

Here is the honest truth:
FFR has set the bar very, very with its other kits. I think greater than 50 % of people would say that's the body style presented does not match the quality of your other kits. By creating a contest to choose a body style you were able to generate a large amount of interest in this project. Because you chose an in house design many people are feeling that you asked for their advice and then completely ignored it.

There was another man named Smith who gave some good advice about situations like these:
A woman came to him saying that people in the community had made disparaging remarks about her.
He replied by saying that whenever he learned of a criticizing remark that someone had said about him, he was very careful to examine its to see if there was any truth to the matter.

[slopoke]

I'm gonna sleep on it ..... I sure hope Mad Dog has a few more to post tomorrow. I can't remember a concept rendering causing such a storm of controversy ... GOOD NIGHT

[shinn497]

There is a post over on GRMS where a guy mentions being let down and jim's design and people have no idea what he was talking about.

The response on this forum is less about the design's actual aesthetics and more about being let down. We expected jim's design to be dead and it isn't. We expected something different. Dave posts an update of jim's design, states that it is an update of jim's design, and there is an uproar.

[projectrally]

I'm all in, but you already know that. It'll look damn good parked next to my Miata.

Better than it did last week, I mean...

[shinn497]

Curious do you work at FFR? How were you privy to the above picture...

[xscott]

Long time lurker, Just registered to commend Dave on a very hard job that doesn't get as much credit as it should. Even though the design is not HOF for me I will probably still build it because of its value and ability.

[Flamshackle]

Seems to be getting some good comments over at nasioc too.



It's worth noting that feedback on GRM has so far been much more favorable than here:

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/for...s/50279/page1/

^This is exactly what I am talking about! Not being able to see the wood from the trees...
We here on this forum are the most critical and blind bunch out!
As my poll has been developing its dropped to a 6.8 out of 10 average from the general public.

It is actually a nice looking car :D

As of now a full day on I am warmer and warmer to the design.

[Flamshackle]

ok Avatar updated... im in!

[Benji]

I'm all in, but you already know that. It'll look damn good parked next to my Miata.

Better than it did last week, I mean...

Nice, I really like the wheels on your NC, what are they? I think they are probably the best wheels I've seen for an NC, I wonder what they'd look like on an NB though maybe a bit too big/heavy....

[wallace18]

I really like the car. I think there is so many upset folks because of all the input given. In the end it is FFR's deal and maybe asking for all this input wasn't such a good idea. No other company has done that to my knowledge. Good Luck Dave and I am waiting for orders to be taking.

[jimgood]

I love it. I absolutely love it. What's really impressive to me is that the roll structure is so tightly integrated with the body visually. This design looks to me like it will cut through the wind vs. other designs with front clips like snow plows. I'm disappointed to see 18"+ wheels on it, but I know you have to show it in the best possible light.

Remember, Dave, negative feedback always sounds louder. Better you should count the number of forum members that like/dislike; not the number of posts.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...maybe asking for all this input wasn't such a good idea.

Thank you! This has been my thinking all along. The input wasn't coming from a focus group, just thousands of people with internet access and an opinion.

Pretend for a moment that the design contest and over a years worth of discussion on a public forum had never happened----if that very same rendering had been released as "The next Factory Five" I believe it would have been met with praise and a huge majority of the comments would be something like "I've gotta' have it!"

Jeff

[RM1SepEx]

Curious do you work at FFR? How were you privy to the above picture...

his miata is next to the go kart... I recognized it last week... he does videos... guess who must be editing the video that we will see at the open house... see post 94

[kach22i]

http://i.imgur.com/Ny9ob.jpg
From a friend
Some more slight changes.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/Modified-Friend-Ny9ob.jpg

To answer an earlier question regarding the long front overhang. I believe it's there to house the extraordinarily long Camry headlights, and for no other reason. I don't say this in contempt or spite, I say this because I've shortened the front several times now during my studies and came to this conclusion. The length/distance from the wheel well arc, to the front, and the curve to get there must accommodate this headlight housing. And as you see it barley fits, leaving a weakened looking thin piece of body material between the back edge of the headlight and the wheel flare's height. Honestly. it just looks like it wants to snap off there, and may just do so if you hit anything.

[kach22i]

Pretend for a moment that the design contest and over a years worth of discussion on a public forum had never happened----if that very same rendering had been released as "The next Factory Five" ..................
Jeff, if that were the case I would think along the lines of; Great, here's a kit car company out there ready to make a car which does not look like a kit car and isn't a replica of anything else. Then I would study it and think perhaps they went too far in trying to make it look like a conventional production car. And then I would be grateful they did not stray equally far on the opposite direction of being too exotic, wild or reminiscent of a Bradly GT, and or something else along those lines.

There was a reason I earlier compared the side profiles of X's design to a Porsche Boxster and a older 914. In my opinion it fell in between, and Jim's design has many similarities to X's, so it too falls short of a modern Porsche (in my opinion). To be fair, some people announced they liked X's design better than a Boxster, these same people most likely approve of Jim's design too. To each their own, we all have our likes and dislikes and it's all subjective.

I will not be buying a 818 kit, so take me out of the informal marketing survey. I'm still looking to upgrade to a better, newer Porsche, one in which I don't have a "to do list" which is a mile long. I think for the same 15k I can buy a used Boxster "S", and still save up for a supercharger or engine transplant.

[thane]

My .02:
Don't much care for the headlights, but like others have said, this one angle maybe doesn't give me enough info to form a solid opinion, nevermind that some cars look much better in person than in photos.
Like others, I like the back half of the car more than the front half of the car.
Was expecting a more audacious design, but I'm not disappointed to see something more reserved and therefore perhaps more lasting.
Surprised, but not disappointed, to see an update of Jim's design.
Back to point one, I need more views and solid colors to get a better sense of what I'm looking at.

Most of all, I still very much intend/hope to build one of these.

thane

[Xusia]

I'm stumped that people keep calling those headlights "Camry" headlights. I've never seen a Camry with such nice looking lights, but that's not the point. Can someone show a picture of a Camry actually using those lights?

[Niburu]

If I was strictly buying a track only car I'd have no hesitation in picking this up.
The more I look at it, the more I like it.
That being said, I am going to wait and see what the other versions end up looking like.
Also I suspect this version would not be street legal in most states.
I am really hoping for a street going targa version something akin to Xabiers design.
Frankly I see nothing wrong with this cleaned up version of Jims earlier design.

Full speed ahead Mr. Smith and let the naysayers be damned.

Lastly should you offer a bolt-on fastback style hardtop in lieu of an actual coupe that'll work too.

[Mechie3]

Few random wonderings:

Is there going to be a trunk space somewhere? Not looking to haul golf clubs, but something big enough to put an average sized backpack in would be great for laptops, lunchbag, grabbing a gallong of milk on the way home from work. Wost case they go in the passenger seat.

How does the shock bolt onto the aluminum front control arm? Did they drill it and make a custom bracket?

[StatGSR]

I'm stumped that people keep calling those headlights "Camry" headlights. I've never seen a Camry with such nice looking lights, but that's not the point. Can someone show a picture of a Camry actually using those lights?

2001-2006
http://s3.amazonaws.com/cartango/inventory/4T1BE32K54U858441/4T1BE32K54U858441-d.jpg
http://www.atozautolights.com/images/AutoPhotos/TOCA0506.jpg
http://www.topgearautosport.com/part/A101WT8S101/Toyota_Camry_2002-2004_Black_Dual_Halo_Projector_Headlights.html

full scale model.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/818Scan.jpg

I could be wrong, but if they are not from a camry, then i don't know what they are from...

[PhyrraM]

I'm stumped that people keep calling those headlights "Camry" headlights. I've never seen a Camry with such nice looking lights, but that's not the point. Can someone show a picture of a Camry actually using those lights?


Because the released photo is a rendering, those lights do not exsist. However, the housings are most definately Camry, with a bit of photohopped projectors inside. The actual clay model that Jim built and 3D scanned used actual Camry lights.

For me, it's never been the idea of Camry lights - it's the sheer size of them.

[Mike N]

Deleted - StatGSR beat me to it.

[Mechie3]

full scale model.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/818Scan.jpg


Is that a full scale model of Jim's original design? That looks much much better from that particular angle and in full size than the mini model looked. Maybe Dave doesn't get the disappointment because the real deal looks better in person.

I really disliked the STI hatcback in pictures, but in person I thought it looked much better. This could be the same.


Edit: Aftermarket Camry headlights

http://www.carpart4u.com/images/products/p_Toyota_Camry_02-06_Halo_Projector_Headlights_Black.jpg

S2000 headlights would be cool (albeit more expensive). If they don't have HID's in the headlights I'll plan to do a projecter/ballast/lens swap on my own. I love a proper HID setup.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3480/3268814114_fd3f6297d1_z.jpg

[SkiRideDrive]

Damn, I check the forum everyday for technical updates. I'd run the car in go kart form for all I care. I sure hope Dave will at least keep us updated on how the non aesthetic portion of the project is going.

Aesthetically, it looks pretty good. I agree that people are probably reacting to the original "Jim design" being used when everyone had the impression that FF was going down a different path. I really like the roll hoop integration. It would be cool to see a different angle of the car. As long as I could make it work with California dot regs under sb100, I'd probably run the race configuration on the street as long as it keeps the headlights.

Thanks for all the releases of information. If it were me, I would probably keep a thread going where only FF administrators can release updates and we can't comment. That will keep peoples interest while you won't have to rummage through confidence killing commentary.

[0100]

I slept on it and have to say I really like it. Can't wait to build an 818monstR!

I still don't understand the need for headlights on the track version though. Dave, save a bunch of time and money and just have your design team design the front with no headlights.

NO HEADLIGHTS FOR THE 818R

I have been racing in the SCCA for over 10 years now and have never seen a race car need headlights.

http://www.starsandstripesms.com/images/graphics/img1465.jpg

^see no lights needed. :)

[Silvertop]

Well, I must confess to being initially a little disappointed -- though that is because I was convinced that we would be getting an updated version of the Xabier car -- which this clearly is not -- though the Xabier design surely influenced it, just as it did the original Jim Schenck design.

Once past that, I have to say that this is a very pretty car, nice lines, smooth flow. A dramatic improvement over the original Jim design. I'm sure it will look nice as a Roadster as well. I can see it in my garage.

One thing I don't see is a reasonable chance at a Targa version of this design. It doesn't seem to me that the incorporation of the necessary hoop would work with the height of the rear deck humps, at least as drawn. So I'm guessing that those of us who want to build Launch #1 will have to make do with a soft top only. But I could be wrong.............

Will we be treated to additional angles and perspectives, and to a rendering of the street version as well? Please?

Nice job, Mr. Smith -- and Mr. Schenck!

[Someday I Suppose]

Personally, I think a lot of the critisim is misplaced, or people who only read what they wanted to read all along. I've always been amazed at how strong of an opinion some people have had on this car all along without being on the design team. Things posted as facts that were conjecture at best.

As for me, I think the track version is awesome looking. My wife who isn't a fan of the GTM even saw the track version on face book yesterday and posted that we should build a bigger garage. That is a pretty empressive endorsement to say the least.

Add that Dave dropped a little nugget on FB about the possibility of a race series around this car, and I am interested and excited to say the least. Can't put me in the I am going to buy one camp just yet, the car isn't finished, but excited about it, and love the possibilities, without a doubt.

Looking forward to the Open House.

-Scott

[Mechie3]

I want headlights for the R version only because I like that design so far and want mine streetable. If it really is a mix and match setup though, I should be able to do the following (ideally):

Order frame/standard components
Choose body style (R or street)
Choose windshield (full or short R version)
Choose headlights or body plugs for openings
Choose wing/no wing
Choose extra roll cage/standard cage
Choose interior (zilch or spartan...lol)

That would be truly cool, if you could mix and match street and R version components when you purchase a kit. Have a streetable R with a slightly nicer interior or a street version with the extra roll hoop for crash protection.

[ehansen007]

I will not be buying a 818 kit, so take me out of the informal marketing survey. I'm still looking to upgrade to a better, newer Porsche, one in which I don't have a "to do list" which is a mile long. I think for the same 15k I can buy a used Boxster "S", and still save up for a supercharger or engine transplant.

Hey George,

I know you've put a lot of valued time in on this topic and you sound frustrated but this is a tired point made many times in the kit car conversation so please refrain from making it. As you know this is a forum about the rewarding effort of building cars not buying used ones. I love a good Porsche, but you'll never hear anyone say "Wow! You BOUGHT that used Boxter? How'd you do that? What was the experience like?" ;)

Thanks for your consideration.


Also, since you're an artist and designer, I'd like to hear more about this. Bad a$$ parts hauler or what?

"1998 Chevy S-10 Pick-Up Truck 4x4 4.3L V6 Black with front and rear spoilers"



e

[kach22i]

Also, since you're an artist and designer, I'd like to hear more about this. Bad a$$ parts hauler or what?

"1998 Chevy S-10 Pick-Up Truck 4x4 4.3L V6 Black with front and rear spoilers"
God forbid I ever try something experimental, even temporary and removable on my vintage Porsche, no wonder NAZI's came from Germany. So I do all my experiments and tinkering on my winter beater (the S-10) and hovercraft.

Chin Spoiler
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/465923-chin-spolier-fast-easy-cheap-effective.html

Rear Spoiler
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/471921-rear-spoiler-pick-up-truck-experiment.html

Roof Wing
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/roof-spoiler-pick-up-truck-cab-phase-1-a-19525.html

And just for fun, the hovercraft
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/hovercraft-experimental-skirt-project-11973.html

One attraction of a kit car (to me) is that most do not consider it holy ground, so modifications, customizations and even experiments are more socially acceptable. I don't do very much for social acceptance, but I'd rather not freak people out either, I have enough problems.:cool:

My latest car design exercise (self entertainment), a 3-seater:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/2-part-aero-body-concept-20793-10.html

[ehansen007]

One more thing, a while back, Dave Smith and the team built a car from the ground up that was just compared to a McLaren (a freaking McLaren!) on the front page of Yahoo Autos so let's have confidence. Feedback is good but let's not make big decisions based on headlights and bumpers cause it ain't over yet. Dave you asked and you received but don't submerge and run silent on us. Just remember:

"The biggest argument against democracy is a ten minute conversation with the average voter" :p

-Winston Churchill

[riptide motorsport]

this is the real world and this is the market Daves selling his product to...................he should be concerned.

[Rockraven]

I couldn't put my finger on why I felt lukewarm to the design, but then kach22i illustrated it perfectly. IT'S THE HEADLIGHTS! The render that kach did with the alternate headlight design made a world of difference, and I felt my hair heat up.

Dave, don't give up on us... it's an EASY FIX! Don't cut out the headlights for the body in the kit! Make the cutouts an option (like on the Roadster kits). This will allow racers to leave the front sleek and smooth sans lights, and road car builders can have the option of incorporating our own headlights, maybe even POP-UPS!

You guys have done a fantastic job with the 818, and let Jim know he did a wonderful job on the design. Something seemingly insignificant like headlight design can throw off the entire look, and I think this is what happened here.

[Rockraven]

If I can integrate these aftermarket Celica headlights, or something similar, we're good. I'm a customer.

10068

[BipDBo]

Well, I must confess to being initially a little disappointed -- though that is because I was convinced that we would be getting an updated version of the Xabier car -- which this clearly is not -- though the Xabier design surely influenced it, just as it did the original Jim Schenck design.


Let's talk briefly about the psychology of the negative reaction.

A body design competition took over 700 designs, input was asked for, and votes were taken. At the same time, an in-house design was shaped and it was nearly unanimously hated. A lot of hard work went into each of the entries, and a lot of dreaming went into seeing one's own design on the road. When the contest winners were announced, that passion got transferred to each person's favorite design. There were many who favored Xabier's car, perhaps more joined the Rodney team especially as he transformed it per forum input. A minority of people, including myself liked the Nouphone design, but even I grew to like Rodney's more through its transformation. Almost nobody joined Jim's team. It's no wonder, because although in function and buildability it was the best of the designs, aesthetically, it was far behind the other three. It's no wonder that most people who entered the competition are disappointed. The reactions may be less about how the final products looks and more about the feeling of being cheated, dismissed and lied to.

With all this being said, I'm one of the few to give a very positive reaction to this final design.

Please allow me to make a few points that may help people reframe the situation and see this design in a different light.
* Concept cars never get built exactly as they are originally conceived. The engineers take what was done by the designers and adapt it so that it will work. This change almost always goes in the more conservative direction.
* The two most popular winners, Xabier and Rodney, needed a lot of transformation to work. Nouphone's car probably was most ready to go, but nobody but me liked it. Rodney's car has gone through some changes and probably still needs some, but originally it was way off on its proportions needed some changes to venting, and perhaps most importantly, was a coupe. Xabier's car had a targa style roll hoop that was both too narrow and too thin to cover the roll bar. Also, it had a huge mouth that would swallow enormous amounts of air and offer nowhere for the air to go. The big, aggressive looking mouth is probably the feature that made most people like it, but it just wouldn't work. It would either give the car the aerodynamics of a parachute, or require most of the openings to be blanked off in black, which would add cost and IMO look pretty tacky up close (See Ford Focus).
* While Jim's car was not the favorite, it was a pretty close adaptation of one of the favorites. If you take Xabier's car and fix some of the issues that don't work, you pretty much get Jim's original design. They decreased front opening size. They gave it a lower sloped hood with upward radiator discharge for proper airflow, and possibly some down-force. They deleted the useless vents behind the front wheels. They added breaks at the front and rear edges of the doors to make the paintless body panel concept work. The curves of the body were changed very little. It had function, but it was ugly, very ugly. Then if you improve some of the ugliest features of Jim's design, you get this, a vast improvement in my opinion.
10069
10070
10071

Dave may have proceeded with a design that was not from the contest, which understandably, causes frustration, but that design was based on one of the favorite submissions and lots of forum feedback.

I do like this final design a lot, but I still think I like Rodney's better, at least for looks. This design probably works better than Rodneys, with less drag and more down-force. What Rodney's car had, though, was originality. I'm hoping that an adaptation of it will make it one day, perhaps as a coupe or targa.

[David Hodgkins]

I haven't weighed in yet about the design so here's my take:
http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/818poster.jpg

First impression, seeing it for the 1st time: All in!

Before I begin, for the record, I didn't submit anything for the contest, and the thing that matters for me is the HOF quotient regardless of who designed it.

I spent some time studying the shadows and contours, eliminating the paint scheme in my mind and tried to envision the shapes of the "hood" area and front fenders, door area and rear quarter.

I really, really love the shape! Remember, this is roughly the size of a Miata, but is wider, looks low slung and long. The front lights dictate that the front fenders have some bulk, which I like. The size of the lights is dictating the overall shape of the fender and Jim did a great job of blending the fender shape to the headlight. The headlights are big, and if I could design a custom light ($$$) or mod that one I'd get rid of the clear plexi behind the read light bucket. But I don't see a need to change the shape.

If you plop this down at ANY cars and coffee, in the middle of a bunch of cobras, you will draw every one of those folks over to check it out.

Plop it down with a bunch of Ferraris, Porches and Austin Martins at a track event, and you got yourself a party.

Love it. Gotta have it. Can I be a Beta? I actually checked out some auction sites for the Subarus for the first time yesterday.

:)

[BipDBo]

If it's really the headlights that people hate, that's an easy fix. Do a custom clear cover like the GTM.

[wjfawb0]

I'm still more concerned about a version that I could drive in the rain without a rain suit. Function over form for me.

[Drew P]

It's been articulated well by some good mannered people above but to summarize I see it comes down to the age old problem of missunderstood communication and mismatched expectations.

1-You yourself said this design would be scrapped SO people were excited about/expecting something else entirely.
2-This design had the most negative feedback (and quite strongly negative) SO seeing this image today has brough up that historic content (even if it does look a lot better than previous)
3-The other designs had gathered a following with each member really hoping for their "Fav" (see my avatar) SO naturally when they saw the reveal today those that didn't get what they wanted felt deflated.'

I think that #3 here is really why so many people are disappointed. Everyone in the here has had their head deep in their favorite design so anything other than that design would let them down. People outside of here that have seen the 818R think it looks great. I do too.

I think another thing that people have gotten caught up on is that the see the potential for supercar performance and because of that performance, they expect to see supercar looks. However, supercar looks come with a much higher production cost and to meet the design goals of the 818, which are aggressive to say the least, a more simple and easier to produce body is necessary. That doesn't change the performance potential of the car. You can still have a car that will turn just about everything you come across on the road into a joke. Would I pay more for a more "exotic" looking body? Sure. But that wasn't part of the goal with this car. Keeping it within budget was. Keeping the big picture in mind, I'm still completely stoked on the current design.

[Drew P]

I want headlights for the R version only because I like that design so far and want mine streetable. If it really is a mix and match setup though, I should be able to do the following (ideally):

Order frame/standard components
Choose body style (R or street)
Choose windshield (full or short R version)
Choose headlights or body plugs for openings
Choose wing/no wing
Choose extra roll cage/standard cage
Choose interior (zilch or spartan...lol)

That would be truly cool, if you could mix and match street and R version components when you purchase a kit. Have a streetable R with a slightly nicer interior or a street version with the extra roll hoop for crash protection.

I think that this would be ideal for just about everyone looking to build one of these.

[Rockraven]

I honestly believe it IS the headlights. This render with Celica style headlights looks so much better, and flows perfectly with the overall design.



Change the headlights and call it a day, just about anything will be better.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/new-headlights-818poster.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/head3-818-2.jpg

[Nuul]

Love it. Gotta have it. Can I be a Beta?

Too late, I already called dibs.

[shim2]

I'm ready to see the roadster. The design is growing on me. I don't see why people hate the camry headlights. I like them, quite the aftermarket for them too, lots of good choices.

[kach22i]

This render with Celica style headlights ....
Actually, if you blink your eyes twice real fast you may even see a Nissan 350Z. Totally not my intention, I was just trying to flow with the existing hood lines.

[PhyrraM]

You gotta think like an engineer.

The Camry lights were chosen because the have some combination of desirable features.

Cost new
Cost used
Availability new
Availability used
Weight
Hi/Lo/parking light/turn signal all in one housing
Compatablity with the Subaru electrical connectors?
Aftermarket options? (aka, gross eBay lights)
Compatability with the styling ideas floating around at the time.

Basically, I'm sure the Camry lights were not random. It seems that Jim knew he needed lights at the start of styling exercises, not at the end. If a contest winner was used more 'blatently' then the search for appropriate lights would be painful or expensive - or both. Think like an engineer....

[vozproto]

Know what?

I wasn't a fan of Jim's initial design either...
But trying to sit back and look at it through a new set of eyes...

I'm starting to really like it.
The design has gone from very good to great in the past 24 hours.
And the headlights are starting to make sense. Should they be the final headlight? Dunno.
But they aren't as heinous as everyone makes them out to be.

Hair of Fire? Not yet.
Dunno if it is missing something, if I need to see the road going version... or if I need to see it in person fully painted and trimmed out.

I'm a fan. Excited to see the finalized design.

[GUNS]

Dave,

I know you're not happy right now, but I really think some more angles/color combos would give us a better perspective of the design.

[PhyrraM]

....Dunno if it is missing something, if I need to see the road going version... or if I need to see it in person fully painted and trimmed out.....

Like any small car, you see very different things when in person.

For example, I can't imagine the grill being such a focal point when walking up to a real Miata-sized car. It's too low, it's in shadows, it's curving underneath. However, the shape and contour of the hood will be a much larger impact in the flesh. You can't really see much hood detail in the renderings, but it's the first thing your eyes will grab in person....especially if it's too flat or too bulbous.

[Mechie3]

Too late, I already called dibs.

You two can fight over dibs as long as Dave ships the kit to my house. ;)

The more I look at this, the less the front grill bothers me. Even my mom liked it. I texted a pic to my family in NY to tell them "this is wha tI'm turning my Subaru into". My mom said"looks awesome and dangerous" while my younger brother said "looks awesome but I think you're nuts".

:D

[pddjsteve]

Dave,

I've been lurking on the forum for a month or so. I'm of the demographic that has never built a kit car before, wasn't interested in a replica kit (not my thing) or the GTM (a bit too large and out of my budget), but was drawn in by this project. The 818 fits my "fun" car goals perfectly - something usable as a summer DD/fun car, that I can autocross or take to a track day, that is about the size of the miata/lighter, rwd, and putting down enough power to be fun without making it TOO insane for me to handle. The 818 is MUCH more unique a build than just another turbo miata (my previous top contender). The release timeline fits nicely with when I was going to be looking to start a project - my late 2013/early 2014 goal gives me a little time after the launch to see what people come up with for hvac and non-zipup windows (frankly my only two concerns at all). Suffice it to say, I'm looking forward to it.

Not being here to see a lot of the early designs (and haven't quite read through ALL the forum posts) I don't really have much emotion tied up in any previous design. I'm judging it purely on whether its something I'd be happy driving around in. On that criteria, I think it looks great! I actually like the headlights, unlike a lot of the comments so far. I think the lines of the car manage to be aggressive but graceful, and while I'm not in love with the front grill area I don't really have a problem with it. I really can't wait to see a rendering of the street version. I hope the criticism you've received doesn't keep you from posting more goodies for us!

Keep up the good work!

Steve

[JRL]

I haven't weighed in yet about the design so here's my take:
http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/818poster.jpg

First impression, seeing it for the 1st time: All in!

Before I begin, for the record, I didn't submit anything for the contest, and the thing that matters for me is the HOF quotient regardless of who designed it.

I spent some time studying the shadows and contours, eliminating the paint scheme in my mind and tried to envision the shapes of the "hood" area and front fenders, door area and rear quarter.

I really, really love the shape! Remember, this is roughly the size of a Miata, but is wider, looks low slung and long. The front lights dictate that the front fenders have some bulk, which I like. The size of the lights is dictating the overall shape of the fender and Jim did a great job of blending the fender shape to the headlight. The headlights are big, and if I could design a custom light ($$$) or mod that one I'd get rid of the clear plexi behind the read light bucket. But I don't see a need to change the shape.

If you plop this down at ANY cars and coffee, in the middle of a bunch of cobras, you will draw every one of those folks over to check it out.

Plop it down with a bunch of Ferraris, Porches and Austin Martins at a track event, and you got yourself a party.
Love it. Gotta have it. Can I be a Beta? I actually checked out some auction sites for the Subarus for the first time yesterday.

:)

Don't kid yourself - that group is entirely different from a demographic stand point. They might give it a look out of curiosity but will still call it a "kit car". Plop it down in a group of ricer's or Subaru owners and you may get some real attention.

[Mechie3]

My initial impression of the car was it reminded me almost of a LMP2 car. I did some google searching and found images of the Peugot 207 Spider. It has a different grill, but similar headlights. Looks pretty cool to me.

http://www.scenicreflections.com/files/Peugeot_207-spider_164_1024x768.jpg

[Nuul]

You two can fight over dibs as long as Dave ships the kit to my house. ;)

The more I look at this, the less the front grill bothers me. Even my mom liked it. I texted a pic to my family in NY to tell them "this is wha tI'm turning my Subaru into". My mom said"looks awesome and dangerous" while my younger brother said "looks awesome but I think you're nuts".

:D

That's cool, my offer of wrench time if you get one before me still stands. I've had nearly the same reaction to everyone I've showed the pic to. My wife's response was the most tepid thus far: "Looks nice". A fellow car guy at work: "I'd drive the @#$% out of that"

[GUNS]

^ I'd like to see the 818 with a more vertical alignment of the headlights, like the Peugot above. I think it would make it much more aggressive.

[D2W]

I think it is funny that the Factory Five Forum is listed as a design partner on the rendering but Dave is upset if we give any negative comments.

[07FIREBLADE]

Let me glass in some celica headlights or s2k ones and I'll be happy. I'm still gonna buy the car just don't know which model yet. I really want some roll up windows...

[xscott]

That Peugot looks very nice with those camry style lights, I think its the angle at which they sit..

[Mechie3]

That Peugot looks very nice with those camry style lights, I think its the angle at which they sit..

That's what I was getting at. I don't think Camry lights are necessarily a bad choice. The angle at which they appear in the rendering may be deceiving. The puegot lights look similar to these camry lights. Maybe swooped up just a little bit more, but I think perspective does a lot of the swooping too.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_J3_liDBfbvs/S2Gix8Oec4I/AAAAAAAAa7M/ETUodJGjhSI/s400/2010-Toyota-Hybrid-Camry-HeadLights.jpg

[Someday I Suppose]

I agree a lot with David H on this, maybe its because I wasn't a designer in the contest, maybe its because I never expected FFR to flat out build one of the contest cars. I don't recall anyone from FFR ever saying that the contest winner would be what goes into production. I certainly don't feel lied too.

As for the headlights, they don't bother me, but I would like to see more views.

-Scott

[xscott]

Heres the car a little more stripped down but the head lights at a different angle

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/enoyskt/818/818xscottrener.jpg

[Evan78]

Like any small car, you see very different things when in person.

For example, I can't imagine the grill being such a focal point when walking up to a real Miata-sized car. It's too low, it's in shadows, it's curving underneath. However, the shape and contour of the hood will be a much larger impact in the flesh. You can't really see much hood detail in the renderings, but it's the first thing your eyes will grab in person....especially if it's too flat or too bulbous.That's what I was thinking. It would be nice to see renderings from a typical standing position.

[Eclipsor00]

this is the real world and this is the market Daves selling his product to...................he should be concerned.


The worst thing you can do in the world as a business owner is sugar coat and only look at the positives. Sorry, the design is definitely not HOF, you have been told through multiple forums and a tremendous amount of people not to use the Jim Design...and what we get...the Jim Design.

Admit it, the vast majority of the world buys stuff for their reputation and looks. You promised HOF, worked with multiple designers on some HOF design projects, and then produced something that definite is "Eh" in all forms of the word. I have been watching for an entire year, and am seriously disappointed. I made one or two comments, but preferred to stay mostly out till I saw final cad versions.

You mentioned being able to make multiple bodies for cheap, you should seriously look into this. Your dedicated audience who signed up on the forum just to see how this turned out is not giving you the feedback you expected (why? you knew Jim's was not widely accepted??).

I will keep watching, but for 15-20k id rather not have a kit car thats ugly, when I could get a full production vehicle thats much nicer. This is coming from a NASA racer who loves performance, but.... I just couldnt get over that face.

[StatGSR]

If it's really the headlights that people hate, that's an easy fix. Do a custom clear cover like the GTM.

its an easy fix if FF does it, not so easy if the end user wants to do it. a set of hella projectors and some clear plexi was all i ever wanted the 818 to have headlights, that way the design of the car can dictate the headlights, not the other way around...

[leetfade]

The challenge with that then becomes producing them. It is more simple and cost effective to take an existing headlight assembly and slap it in. If it is one that already has an aftermarket presence, even better because you then have options!

[Arrowhead]

We will unveil the production car at the 2012 SEMA show

Your gonna need a bigger booth!

[xscott]

Sooo... We need more perspective photos!


That's what I was getting at. I don't think Camry lights are necessarily a bad choice. The angle at which they appear in the rendering may be deceiving. The puegot lights look similar to these camry lights. Maybe swooped up just a little bit more, but I think perspective does a lot of the swooping too.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_J3_liDBfbvs/S2Gix8Oec4I/AAAAAAAAa7M/ETUodJGjhSI/s400/2010-Toyota-Hybrid-Camry-HeadLights.jpg

[Oppenheimer]

I imagine that Dave's choice of using Jim's design was based more on effort to fit the frame than anything else. That design was the only one built from the start with full knowledge of template and manufacturing contraints. It was probably just too much to try and get one of the other designs to fit, still look good, still fit the budget, along with all the other 'firsts' that are involved in this project, all in the timeframe needed for launch.

Engineering can be done: Cheap, Fast, Good, pick any 2.

Dave has always said there would be more than one body design. He has hinted there could eventually be a lot of body designs. So if you want an 818, but don't like this design, then you could:

- build it anyway, value performance/$ over looks
- wait for a body design you like better to be released
- buy kit, modify body to your liking
- buy kit without body, build your own
- buy kit without body, buy body from someone else (guessing vendors will appear with other body designs for 818 chassis)

You have a lot of choices here. And yes, one of them is to go buy/build something else.

But before you critize the situation that exists right now, think about this, if FFR does end up building several 818 body designs, including the most popular ones discussed on the forum, maybe even some replica's (or allows other vendors to build them), then harsh critizisms made today might seem rather petty in hindsight.

There is room for everyone to get what they want here, but only if the car succeeds to the point that there is $ to go building these other body designs. So bottom line, if you really don't like this design, your best bet is to support the 818 as much as you can, so that your favorite can have its day.

[xscott]

Heres the headlights at a different angle and some tweaks to the car i made. Maybe we just need more photos!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/enoyskt/818/818xscottrener.jpg

[shim2]

I think you're right. That looks much much better.

[j32driver]

I've been picking pennies up off the street for a couple of years, saving up to build a Roadster. Then I found the 818 project a couple of months ago. Once I stumbled upon RodneyO's body design, and it looked like F5 was studying his CAD files and leaning in that direction... there was NO QUESTION I was going to build an 818 (and much sooner than I was going to do a Roadster).

Now that I've seen the official 818R... I'm left kind of, well.... "eh" for lack of a better word. The nose just ruins the car for me. It looks like my 16 year old neighbors, tricked out Civic with a grapefruit shooter for a muffler. Everything else about the car's shape looks pretty sexy so far. But the nose alone would be enough to make me not build one until there is a better solution. If Rodney's design can be an upgrade option in the future, I will simply wait for that.

FACTORY 5... PLEASE!!!!! If this is the only body we are going to get from you... please rework the nose of the car. Take some style cues from Rodney for the front bumper and I think you would please a lot of us that are griping.

[bugeye_fever]

I think the rendering looks great. Something to think about though, there's no way one design is going to make everyone happy, its just not possible. And usually the unhappy people are the most vocal. Now take into account how many people were involved with this project, and all of us here on the forums putting in our 2 cents. Nobodies getting exactly what they want... Or are we, its still 1800lbs, its still got an extremely flexable subie drivetrain. I think we've nearly lost sight of what we all wanted in the begining. Plus, any self respecting car guy(probably in the world) who didnt know about ffr, now does(when I see something on the internet that starts with Mclaren, I click on it!) Which is probably the reason I haven't gotten the main ffr page to load in the last couple of days.

I'm not worried about the looks, look at the rest of the factory five line up, who thinks Dave Smith is gonna release something that isn't awesome? On that note kudos to a company president who actually gets on the forums to talk to potential customers.. that's pretty rare.

On the lighter side, there's an irony here I think is missed, and the subie faithfulls will understand. Since when has something related to Subaru ever been universally accepted from the start, lol. They grow on you!!

<Proud bugeye owner

[Mechie3]

Tis true. Forum dwellers on NASIOC still complain about the ugly 08-12 models for the impreza. Funny thing, their sales exploded started in 08 and really took off in 2010. Those that were around since 02 liked the quirky bugeye and hated the new stuff. They were a minority though. Sales records show as such.

[RM1SepEx]

People that want to "take their ball and go home" need to get a life.

Dave and the Factory 5 crew have put together an awesome car that can be built at a relatively low cost. I'm all in, can't wait, already starting my project with a donor to strip and refit as required.

If you don't like the body as designed wait for another or modify it on your own. Perhaps they will sell you the chassis on it's own, several threads talk about modifying the chassis as well for other engines, trans etc... Perhaps there is a business opportunity out there for someone. I'm sure small business opportunities will spring up as they have for the rest of the F5 stable of cars.

The design looks great, is it "out there" like Rodney's NOPE, is it totally unique from the side like Xabier's NOPE, it is agressive and muscular.

It is a smooth agressive design that should outperform anything in it's price range and REDEFINE what a kit is!

I see tons of complaints that have no place here... Targa, coupe etc... Roll up windows, no zip up windows, come on we are talking a sub $10K kit here!!!

from the outset Dave indicated that a roadster would be first and that he would not produce a car w/o a top again (lesson learned with the Spyder) He's done exactly that.

Am I disappointed that it isn't a it more like Xabier's (my favorite and my desktop for months) ... perhaps, BUT what they have presented will give me the opportunity to build a car myself that I'll be proud to drive every chance I get unless I know that it will rain. It will have that emergency top to keep my leather seats dry. I'll reserve my old BMW 325IC for that probable rain duty, she isn't bad when it rains and the top goes up fast.

My wife likes the design, I'm happy with it so it has the needed blessing to receive the family finances and we are a GO!!!

[Evan78]

Agreed. I doubt many (or any?) of the people saying the looks kill it for them were going to buy anyway. Is there any kit in this price range that has looks even in this ballpark? The only kits I know at this price level are Locosts and exoskeleton cars, and none of them are going to win any beauty contests.

[kach22i]

I reduced the size of the headlights by about 1/3, and then pushed back the front by about 6 inches.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/Modify4-lights-818-2.jpg

Much better balanced in my opinion while preserving the original character.

Where can you get 2/3rds sized Camry lights?

How about a Toyota Corolla? ....................or a Miata MX5?

Honestly, I've seen smaller headlights than a Camry on many mini vans.

[Dave Smith]

Thanks for the great feedback on the question of "Should we launch the 818 as a track-car or as a Street car at SEMA 2012.

[Mike N]

Kach22i I think you are really hitting on the key issue with the balance comment, the front overhang looks out of proportion in the view shown. The shorter overhang really does look more aggressive, but we know that the rear overhang is not going to be super short in order to house the trans so may be a different angle might give a distinctly different impression. But we don't have another angle so we really can't say. I would also prefer if the front end didn't look like it was blowing a kiss, a bit goldfish like, but that would be the simplest thing to fix yourself if you really wanted to. I think some graphics, mesh, blacked out areas would do a pretty good job of making the grill area look much better. Bottom line for me is that overall the car is 95% there and the styling is probably 75/80% there.

Interesting poll in another thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?6390-Lets-try-an-objective-take-on-this that now has close to 100 votes and is showing a slightly above average but not spectacular (HoF) response to the current design.

[Mike N]

Thanks for the great feedback on the question of "Should we launch the 818 as a track-car or as a Street car at SEMA 2012.

Got slightly off topic didn't we? Just like herding cats......

[RedJoker]

Got slightly off topic didn't we? Just like herding cats......

Wait, there is a topic? ;)

[bugeye_fever]

Sorry 'bout that, kind of got on a rant. My feedback, bring the street car, show art of the track car. As long as both styles are present visually though I think it'll be good. If you bring the track car, it'll blow people away, and they may look at a rendering of the street car and say, hey thats something I can actually do and use! Or you bring the street car, it still blows people away as something pretty unique and attainable, then they see the renderings of the track car, and they're blown away again with its potential.

The little boy in me wants you to bring the track car though.. since that's what I'm more interested in, I've been going back and looking over the roadster all day today, love it.

[Mike N]

Wait, there is a topic? ;)


The biggest challenge right now and the question I have for you guys is the product introduction. We will unveil the production car at the 2012 SEMA show, but WHICH MODEL? Originally I conceived this chassis to serve three distinct roles. 1. Affordable Giant-slayer street car. 2. Potent Open Track weapon and 3. Build-it-yourself 65+ MPG commuter car.

Original topic?

[smoove7410]

I vote track for sure....more of an attention grabber. If I end up building one, it will be a track R version that I'll drive on the street with a full face helmet. I love the open cockpit feel with no windshield.

Obviously, you used the camry headlights due to inclusion of the turn signal, angle of the lens and cost. If it is possible, I would look into the s2000 headlight. It costs the same but is smaller and may fix the issue with the front some are having.

[scartaan]

The two areas that I think could be improved are 1) The shortened nose that Katch has rendered is the most important, and was a great improvement in how it looked . 2) lowering the top line @ the door area would be a big improvement as well. This was addressed somewhat with the 2-tone paint job. It appears " the die is cast", however, so that #2 is not feasible , but #1 might be possible. On a street car, the approach angle as it sits now, would scrape on any undulation in the road, so that any shortening of the nose would help.

[Mechie3]

Everyone I showed that blue/white 818R rendering to said "Awesome!". After I said I was going to build one they said "YES!". Well, car guys did, my mom said "looks dangerous (and awesome)". :lol:

I say lead with the 818R

[shim2]

I vote track for sure....more of an attention grabber. If I end up building one, it will be a track R version that I'll drive on the street with a full face helmet. I love the open cockpit feel with no windshield.

Obviously, you used the camry headlights due to inclusion of the turn signal, angle of the lens and cost. If it is possible, I would look into the s2000 headlight. It costs the same but is smaller and may fix the issue with the front some are having.

I'm not sure where you are getting this but s2k headlights are steep. Did a quick ebay search, oem headlights go for 200-500 a piece! You can get a set of camry lights for 200-300. The ebay knock-offs are a bit cheaper at 3-400 a pair, still more than camry which was 199-299 a pair.

I really don't understand all the hate for the camry headlights. I like them and their decision makes sense.

Dave, thanks for showing us the 818R. My initial reaction to it was positive. I'm curious about some things but that doesn't take away from the fact that you and your team has designed a nice car and I'm anxious for more updates.

You should definitely lead with it, I showed my wife her first reaction was "wow, that's nice!" That seems to be the general reaction with people I've shown. Take the negative comments here(mine included) with a grain of salt. I think the overall feeling on the forum about the car is positive.

[miznitic]

I was initially thrilled with the concept and many of the designs were great, and then some of the concepts were shown and I lost some interest. Now, with this car, I'm just not feeling it at all.

[Vman7]

I imagine that Dave's choice of using Jim's design was based more on effort to fit the frame than anything else. That design was the only one built from the start with full knowledge of template and manufacturing contraints. It was probably just too much to try and get one of the other designs to fit, still look good, still fit the budget, along with all the other 'firsts' that are involved in this project, all in the timeframe needed for launch.

Engineering can be done: Cheap, Fast, Good, pick any 2.

Dave has always said there would be more than one body design. He has hinted there could eventually be a lot of body designs. So if you want an 818, but don't like this design, then you could:

- build it anyway, value performance/$ over looks
- wait for a body design you like better to be released
- buy kit, modify body to your liking
- buy kit without body, build your own
- buy kit without body, buy body from someone else (guessing vendors will appear with other body designs for 818 chassis)

You have a lot of choices here. And yes, one of them is to go buy/build something else.

But before you critize the situation that exists right now, think about this, if FFR does end up building several 818 body designs, including the most popular ones discussed on the forum, maybe even some replica's (or allows other vendors to build them), then harsh critizisms made today might seem rather petty in hindsight.

There is room for everyone to get what they want here, but only if the car succeeds to the point that there is $ to go building these other body designs. So bottom line, if you really don't like this design, your best bet is to support the 818 as much as you can, so that your favorite can have its day.

Well said!

I posted this over in the next body style thread, I should have posted it here, sorry about that.

Time to let this body style thing go and let Dave, Jim & FFR do what they do best and get the 818 out there. Allow time for them to develop, refine etc. after the car has been launched, just like they have done with all their other designs.

I figure depending on how well the 818 is recieved by the public, by sales, performance, styling etc., only then can FFR move on to refining the car, not only in body style, but also performance. This will take time, and depending on how things go FFR will make their own decision on how to move forward with the 818.

Like I said in the other thread. Be Patient and give FFR some time! Like a good wine, it takes time. Rome wasn't built in day.

Again, let Dave, Jim and the FFR team do their job :)

David

[kach22i]

....s2k headlights are steep.
Too bad, they would fit like a glove.

The downside is that it might look like an S2000 at first glance.

Not my problem, I've done all I can.

http://www.semashow.com/the-sema-show

SEMA Show takes place October 30 - November 2, 2012 at the Las Vegas Convention Center.
See you guys on-line in November, don't think there will be anything here in the forum until then by the sound of it.

Cheers, George/kach22i

[Tanimal]

Thanks for the great feedback on the question of "Should we launch the 818 as a track-car or as a Street car at SEMA 2012.

Going back to that question I would say the track car would be best.

Here why and a few things to chew on:

Your plan it to market this globally and Our ideas of what a hot smoking car "is" all differ drastically (all over the world) but what we all do have consensus on is performance. From drifter in japan to the guys cruising on the autobahn. What matter is how it performs and you want to go with your best performance platform. I'm not so sure what the suspension configuration is for the 818 but is it meant for circle track, auto cross, drifting or whatever else? And if it was meant for one how easy is it adapt it for something else?

Personally I would like to see the commuter beast that I would lightly modify for track weekends. I do it for fun so I don't need something crazy fast ...just stupid fast.

For the PR guys:
If you want to market this globally, get your over seas contacts to build an 818R (chassis or full body) using what they could find in their home country and then drop the hammer. I love to see it fly around the Nürburgring, cruising down and Italian country side, or drift around a Japanese neighborhood. I would market Germany,UK and Japan. The thing about a kit car is that it is a bases platform for you to make something of your own. I guess a cheeze line would be "This is my 818" and have a guy/gal stand with t their version of the 818. I'm a body tech so it comes naturally to me to modify something I don't like, It all comes down to how much time I want to spend sanding. (Strong economy, with big performance market, I would do Italy or France too but their economy isn't as strong right now but since they are in the same neighbor hood as the UK and Germany it would cross over slowly. Japan is about the strongest Asian market for consumer spending in cars.)

[smoove7410]

I'm not sure where you are getting this but s2k headlights are steep. Did a quick ebay search, oem headlights go for 200-500 a piece! You can get a set of camry lights for 200-300. The ebay knock-offs are a bit cheaper at 3-400 a pair, still more than camry which was 199-299 a pair.

I really don't understand all the hate for the camry headlights. I like them and their decision makes sense.

Dave, thanks for showing us the 818R. My initial reaction to it was positive. I'm curious about some things but that doesn't take away from the fact that you and your team has designed a nice car and I'm anxious for more updates.

You should definitely lead with it, I showed my wife her first reaction was "wow, that's nice!" That seems to be the general reaction with people I've shown. Take the negative comments here(mine included) with a grain of salt. I think the overall feeling on the forum about the car is positive.

I guess it depends what you are used to. $500 per oem light is cheap to me. My lights on my car run $1,200 per light. Since the Camry lights that they have used in the illustrations are not oem, I looked at the equivalent S2k lights, which are 3-400 a pair as you said. $400 for two headlights is cheap, at least to me, and the additional 100 in parts over the Camry lights, will not blow the budget on the build.

[07FIREBLADE]

^^^ completely true, headlights for my mercedes were the same as yours and I had to replace one recently. The only thing that i can find troublesome would be to get the aftermarket headlights and grafting them into the body, not that hard for me to do. The issue i see with this though is having to pay for paint and getting by the brake and light inspections which i believe is necessary to get the car registered in CA. So pretty much for me to change the headlights I would be buying OEM not aftermarket so its DOT approved and then modifying the front end prior to registration or registering the car then do my body work....

Hopefully when the car is finally reveiled though the car will have some slight modifications done to make it a bit more aesthetically appealing. But if not its no big deal its still a decent looking design. The more work FFR does the less that I need to do.

[VTX]

I reduced the size of the headlights by about 1/3, and then pushed back the front by about 6 inches.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/Modify4-lights-818-2.jpg

Much better balanced in my opinion while preserving the original character.

Where can you get 2/3rds sized Camry lights?

How about a Toyota Corolla? ....................or a Miata MX5?

Honestly, I've seen smaller headlights than a Camry on many mini vans.

The headlights are an improvement, but not there yet. However, I will say that personally I don't like the shortened look of it. I like how it is now. Shortening it to me gives it a little bit of a "cute" feel IMHO.

Actually, I think the way FFR designed it is really pretty good. I'd just like to see it with different headlights and in a solid color and different wheels before I can say for sure how I feel about it.

[mug23]

Can someone edit the picture above with some CCW custom wheels with some lip and solid colors? Maybe that will change the looks a bit.

I really like the shorter front end as it will less weight over the front end that in return will improve handling.

[bromikl]

We expected jim's design to be dead and it isn't. We expected something different. Dave posts an update of jim's design, states that it is an update of jim's design, and there is an uproar.

shinn497 said it best.

Dave said repeatedly that he LOVED Xabier's track version. Therefore we expected something like Xabier's design.
Dave said Jim's design was dead. So we expected it would be unlike Jim's design. Silly us.

The track version is a good looking car - in a relative sense. It would easily win hands down in beauty pageants with 99% of the cars on the road. But it's not what we expected. Anyone who didn't have pre-formed ideas about the track car would certainly say he'd love to own it. But I'd also agree it could look better with a shorter front overhang and different headlights. Regardless, the track version isn't what interests me.

I'm still holding out hope of building some version of Rodney O's car. And I'm definitely not going to say "If it's not O's I'm taking my ball and going home." Whatever Dave comes up with will look GREAT. Even if the O is never an option, the 818 will perform so well at an unbeatable price, it could look like a Saab and I'd drive it!

10077

[Arrowhead]

The biggest challenge right now and the question I have for you guys is the product introduction. We will unveil the production car at the 2012 SEMA show, but WHICH MODEL? Originally I conceived this chassis to serve three distinct roles. 1. Affordable Giant-slayer street car. 2. Potent Open Track weapon and 3. Build-it-yourself 65+ MPG commuter car.

That is an incredibly difficult choice, in a perfect world bringing both the track and street car would be the way to go. As has been mentioned here before, it's not just about the people walking around the show, it's the press afterwards that's helps promote so even just bringing one will open the door to the media to bring out the rest of the story.
As much as I think the street car is the broader audience, the track car is the one that will WOW people. I think it would be worth investing a backdrop or large poster that clearly shows the options for the base car. Don't let people walk away (even the casual spectator) that the track car is all that is being launched.

[Mechie3]

I actually love the wheels on the rendering. Has a (IMO) very Le Mans look to me. Love it!

[Justen]

Wow, Just changing the headlights make it look way better! I love it. I guess it was just the Camry headlights that was making it look so bland. I would still buy it either way, but would like to see smaller headlights on it like the pics below:


Change the headlights and call it a day, just about anything will be better.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/new-headlights-818poster.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/head3-818-2.jpg

[Justen]

Even just changing the headlight angle and giving them a black background give it a much better look.


Heres the headlights at a different angle and some tweaks to the car i made. Maybe we just need more photos!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/enoyskt/818/818xscottrener.jpg

[blueafro]

On the original topic, I'd say show off the version which is most feature complete. If they both are, then bring the one the marketing people expect will sell the most units.

As to the thread drift, the photo was posted in this one, so it was bound to derail the conversation, no matter what people though. :)

[zzospreyzz55]

It seems to me that most companies when designing performance cars will test and show the world their car with the flagship of performance first and then entice the public that a reliable and affordable street model is also available but will be engineered from race proven technologies. Audi, porsche, GM, jaguar, nissan, pugeot, ferrari, etc... they all do it in the SCCA and similar. Why would FFR not lead with the 818R and have some wicked track numbers to back up the car and then push a more affordable option that can be used on the street?

As for the design, I thought it was funny as I've been creeping on this site for a few months now enjoying the evolution of this project. The initial reaction was passionate, but I guess it's all fun and games until someone gets hurt. Dave came on and let you know that his feelings were hurt and gave the "I'm gonna take my ball and go home" speech, and it sucked all the passion out of the forum. Unfortunately, with the passion I think went a bit of the honesty from some of the people. My honest and brutal opinion of the body design is that it's uninspired and unremarkable. I think the rating of the body around a 7/10 is accurate.

The design is not displeasing and will sell, probably more so for the numbers the car has attributed to it than people actually being drawn to the visual appearance of it. Which is fine and probably a smart business move- but the design is being produced already behind the times. It looks like a car from the late 2000s and one that you could expect to currently see in production but nearing the end of it's design run. However, this is all judgement from one single CAD drawing, it's not what the car is actually looking like. I can't see all the lines of the car from that pic, however we all seem to agree that it's missing something. I don't think it's the headlights (though that may be part of it), I think it's the contours. The new designs that are coming out have more definition, edges and contours that break up the flat panels on the body. See the 2013 Corvette and Viper... For that matter even Scion is getting in on a slightly more modern aggressive look with their FR-S. Other companies also found that it was difficult to come up with new designs that had mass appealed, so they retroed back to their roots (Mustang, Camaro, Challenger)... Heck, the AC/Shelby Cobra body is widely regarded as one of, if not the prettiest car ever built! Why, because it had a lot of masculine curves and contours to it.

I understand that cost is prohibitive, and that's fine. Like I said, the body is still attractive enough that it will not deter any more buyers than a more unique body style would. However, I think what is shown here is an excellent base, for a work in progress and there could be a little bit more aggressiveness and masculinity added to give the car a more fresh, modern and aggressive look to match the performance. If you're going through the trouble of designing a car from the ground up, why not make the appearance as impressive as the performance?

I'm not out and am still heavily considering purchasing one, even if the body stays the same. Although I may hold out for the roll-up windows. All those summers riding with my dad in his 1959 Triumph TR-3A has given me an aversion to side curtains. ;)

[Etos]

Ok so I just sat down at a hotel for WBM after visiting FFR open house event(got there super late). I got a chance to 1on1 with Jim about the car and I'd like to share some info.

-Bodies are universal. Hardtop/coupe/whatever it will be will fit a subaru drivetrain no problem. Dave needs to work on his wording as well :p

-A hardtop/coupe version will not cost too much more. For reference he says one of their models(either 33 hot or mk4 roadster) cost $2200 for a hardtop with power windows. Said 'should' be a little cheaper but couldn't say how much yet. I am 100% ok with this pricing as it includes a top, doors that support real windows, and ofcourse real windows.

-For those interested in how the intercooler gets air, it's from the top 2 vents on each side.

-Links for the STi wheel hub is being considered and Jim assures me he understands why people want the STi hubs. A little CV mutilation is required but cheap if you take it to a shop that specializes on such things.

-Use of the motor mounts/tranny mount are needed. This is a great thing as it allows the user to decide how much NVH they would prefer.

-Holes must be drilled into the front arms for the coil spring. Jim says this is fine and done on many FFR cars. Templates will be provided to get the right holes.

-The car is surprisingly easy to get in and out from. To understand I have a completely busted up left knee that can't bend further then ~70 degrees so it's hard to get out of cars for me. S2000 is a serious pain in the ***. The 818 was surprisingly easy.

-It seems the NA exhaust is causing them some problems. They are figuring out how to get the exhaust to work and it definitely looks like a challenge.

-People worried about the rear shifter assembly, there will be guards around it to survive a small fender bender. A flat out rear end will probably result in damage but that's just the nature of the beast.

[PhyrraM]

Any conversation on:

Fly-by-wire/Throttle cable differences
Wide Sedans/Narrow Wagons differences

[trublue]

Dave,
Definitely show the 818R Version at SEMA and have one for motor magazine writers to drive. The street models will bask in the glow created by the top performance model. Congratulations on another FFR milestone!
Art

[Xusia]

Ok so I just sat down at a hotel for WBM after visiting FFR open house event(got there super late). I got a chance to 1on1 with Jim about the car and I'd like to share some info.

Thank you!


-A hardtop/coupe version will not cost too much more. For reference he says one of their models(either 33 hot or mk4 roadster) cost $2200 for a hardtop with power windows. Said 'should' be a little cheaper but couldn't say how much yet. I am 100% ok with this pricing as it includes a top, doors that support real windows, and ofcourse real windows.

Agree. That sounds very reasonable and makes me very excited!


-Use of the motor mounts/tranny mount are needed. This is a great thing as it allows the user to decide how much NVH they would prefer.

I'm not sure what you mean. Also, what is NVH?

[metalmaker12]

I reduced the size of the headlights by about 1/3, and then pushed back the front by about 6 inches.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile%202%20-%20Odds%20and%20Ends/Modify4-lights-818-2.jpg

Much better balanced in my opinion while preserving the original character.

Where can you get 2/3rds sized Camry lights?

How about a Toyota Corolla? ....................or a Miata MX5?

Honestly, I've seen smaller headlights than a Camry on many mini vans.

Do not like it stretched, the car looks good the way it is. Let it beeeeeeee

[Rockraven]

Thank you!



Agree. That sounds very reasonable and makes me very excited!



I'm not sure what you mean. Also, what is NVH?


Noise, vibration, harshness. Manufacturers have to find a good balance, and some NVH is desirable (Cobra, Harley) and in other vehicles (luxury cars, sport bikes) it's undesirable.

[Nuul]

-Bodies are universal. Hardtop/coupe/whatever it will be will fit a subaru drivetrain no problem. Dave needs to work on his wording as well :p

-A hardtop/coupe version will not cost too much more. For reference he says one of their models(either 33 hot or mk4 roadster) cost $2200 for a hardtop with power windows. Said 'should' be a little cheaper but couldn't say how much yet. I am 100% ok with this pricing as it includes a top, doors that support real windows, and ofcourse real windows.

Perfect. This answered the two questions I had for the open house. Thanks for this.

[Etos]

Any conversation on:

Fly-by-wire/Throttle cable differences
Wide Sedans/Narrow Wagons differences

Sorry I hate DBC with a passion so I didn't think to bring it up. I'm sure they have something in mind. Obviously with the current test mule it's not a problem since it's DBW.

Again I wasn't thinking about sedan/wagon differences so it didn't come up.





I'm not sure what you mean. Also, what is NVH?

NVH = noise vibration harshness. There are 2 engine mounts and 1 trans mount. You can get varying softness in these mounts. OEM mounts are pretty soft and allow alot of movement but have little noise or vibrations since the rubber in the mounts absorb this. There are different levels of firmness depending on what you get. Group N mounts have the exact same structure as OEM with just harder rubber. There's Aftermarket mounts that are essentially all metal or uses poly instead of rubber.

[Xusia]

OK, probably a silly question, but is there a problem with the OEM rubber mounts? It seems to me a lack of noise and vibration is a good thing. Why on God's green earth would you purposely increase those?!? A car I can drive all day versus an hour seems like a no brainer...

[818]

OK, probably a silly question, but is there a problem with the OEM rubber mounts? It seems to me a lack of noise and vibration is a good thing. Why on God's green earth would you purposely increase those?!? A car I can drive all day versus an hour seems like a no brainer...

The engine and transmission weigh a lot. When a lot of weight wiggles around, it's hard on the cv joints, engine mounts, frame, and any hoses, cables or wires that interface between the (relative) static chassis and dynamic engine/transmission. On FWD cars, soft stock OEM mounts can allow so much movement the engine can cause severe damage. On an SRT-4 for example, the turbo can bang into the firewall as well as the oil pan can smack into the lower torque strut hard enough to crack the pan, and starving your engine of oil. Also (On the SRT-4), stock motor mounts create significant wheel hop causing traction issues.

Because the 818 is a very different beast, and because the engine is longitudinal, and in the rear, it may be less of an issue, but still, will be hard on the cv joints. Personally, I prefer a solid/spherical-bearing mount, but you would feel every single vibration with that. Short of that, a high-durometer urethane mount would be my next choice.

[apexanimal]

the group-n mounts are a good compromise - much less movement, and still relatively comfy...

[NonProfit]

OK, probably a silly question, but is there a problem with the OEM rubber mounts? It seems to me a lack of noise and vibration is a good thing. Why on God's green earth would you purposely increase those?!? A car I can drive all day versus an hour seems like a no brainer...

It is no doubt a subjective thing, but has to do with feel and feedback. Taken to the extreme, something like a Grand Marquis does a really good job of isolating noise and vibration. But in the process, it kind of kills the driving experience.

With that said, I'm hoping for more refined than less and will not elect for the harder mounts.

[SkiRideDrive]

I haven't made up my mind on engine mounts, as the engine isn't a stressed member of the chassis, but I would be interested in hearing about any sources of compliance in the suspension or steering system for more direct feedback and consistent tuning.

[Etos]

OK, probably a silly question, but is there a problem with the OEM rubber mounts? It seems to me a lack of noise and vibration is a good thing. Why on God's green earth would you purposely increase those?!? A car I can drive all day versus an hour seems like a no brainer...

OEM rubber is very soft and compliant. This allows the engine to move around in the engine bay a bit. Ever see an engine rev in the bay? That's due to the mounts rubber allowing the movement. Same with the trans mount. Ever see the shifter move around on it's own and not due to shifter bushings? That's the engine twisting thus moving the trans thus moving the shifter.

When the engine moves around like that, that's power being used to crush and stretch rubber as opposed to turning wheels. Also how the engine feels changes entirely with soft vs firm. Soft has a delayed soft response from the throttle where firm is aggressive and faster response.

It's not like we want things to be harsh and loud(some do), it's just how it all works. For those who want a nicer cruise ride and don't care about response and feel then the softer the better. Those who want response at all costs, the firmer the better. Ofcourse to a point, too firm and the trans absorbs shocks, too soft and it bounces around all over the place.

[Etos]

I haven't made up my mind on engine mounts, as the engine isn't a stressed member of the chassis, but I would be interested in hearing about any sources of compliance in the suspension or steering system for more direct feedback and consistent tuning.

Well the engine/tranny mounts affect engine response mainly, with a tiny power difference.

For other bushings... There's only 5 in total for the suspension.

Front control arm rear bushing
Front control arm front bushing
Rear lateral arms all use the same bushing(8 in total)
Rear trailing arm front bushing
Rear trailing arm rear bushing

IMO the best ones to get are the TiC graphite bushings if you want something more firm or really firm(they make them in different hardness levels). They make those bushings for most of those arms.

[ursa5000]

Dave,

WOW !!!! That is one smokin' hot car. I would give my left pinky to really hammer that throttle! Crusin' down the Pacifiic Coast (Highway 1) in California from Monterey to San Luis Obispo on a hot summer day in the 818 would be like...... winning the lottery, only better !! I forgot who mentioned this fact, but this really is a Miata sized car and there absolutley ain't ---- NOTHIN' ----- like the 818 in that price and style range. (Oh yea, the headlights need to be stacked vertically IMHO..but I'll take care of that, it's still a FFR kit after all)

Dave, you really are gonna need a bigger booth, bigger production plans, and FFR will need to start setting up a waiting list for the 818.... its gonna be a long one too.

I almost have the funds for a '33 saved up, but now I gotta rethink what I'm gonna do. Oh yea, the wife's strongly leaning toward the 818 (coupe) over the '33. I honestly don't stand a chance...lol.

Da Bear

[shim2]

Dave,

WOW !!!! That is one smokin' hot car. I would give my left pinky to really hammer that throttle! Crusin' down the Pacifiic Coast (Highway 1) in California from Monterey to San Luis Obispo on a hot summer day in the 818 would be like...... winning the lottery, only better !! I forgot who mentioned this fact, but this really is a Miata sized car and there absolutley ain't ---- NOTHIN' ----- like the 818 in that price and style range. (Oh yea, the headlights need to be stacked vertically IMHO..but I'll take care of that, it's still a FFR kit after all)

Dave, you really are gonna need a bigger booth, bigger production plans, and FFR will need to start setting up a waiting list for the 818.... its gonna be a long one too.

I almost have the funds for a '33 saved up, but now I gotta rethink what I'm gonna do. Oh yea, the wife's strongly leaning toward the 818 (coupe) over the '33. I honestly don't stand a chance...lol.

Da Bear

You bring up an interesting point. I wonder how they predict initial sales to be and if they're going to have enough kits ready to ship so they don't get flooded and have a 6-12month waiting list. Because that would suck.

[projectrally]

-A hardtop/coupe version will not cost too much more. For reference he says one of their models(either 33 hot or mk4 roadster) cost $2200 for a hardtop with power windows. Said 'should' be a little cheaper but couldn't say how much yet. I am 100% ok with this pricing as it includes a top, doors that support real windows, and ofcourse real windows.

This is great. I hope the body itself is modular, i.e. the hardtop can be retrofitted to the roadster body (in a similar way to what they do on the '33, perhaps) so that we early adopters don't have to buy an entirely new body.


-Links for the STi wheel hub is being considered and Jim assures me he understands why people want the STi hubs. A little CV mutilation is required but cheap if you take it to a shop that specializes on such things.


This is the best news I've heard! I've already got too many sets of wheels for my NC Miata (same bolt pattern as the 05+ STI), and it would be great if these guys could share. Considering the cost of wheels and tires (and the huge amount of space they take up in the basement), I'd definitely rather spend my money on this hub conversion than stocking up on more wheels for another car. Hmm...I wonder what the offset is on the STi wheels...

[ursa5000]

You bring up an interesting point. I wonder how they predict initial sales to be and if they're going to have enough kits ready to ship so they don't get flooded and have a 6-12month waiting list. Because that would suck.

I'm darn sure that FFR already has contingency plans -----requierments and lead times for raw materials, finsihed goods, new hires, and plant expansion----for three different sales levels, based on the first 60 days of sales....A search of a couple of websites indicated that FFR sells around 500 kits a year. If new orders for the 818 level off at one every other day, that would be a 36% increase in kit units in one year for FFR. --that is a very challanging set of management issues for even the best run companies.

Da Bear

[apexanimal]

Well the engine/tranny mounts affect engine response mainly, with a tiny power difference.

For other bushings... There's only 5 in total for the suspension.

Front control arm rear bushing
Front control arm front bushing
Rear lateral arms all use the same bushing(8 in total)
Rear trailing arm front bushing
Rear trailing arm rear bushing

IMO the best ones to get are the TiC graphite bushings if you want something more firm or really firm(they make them in different hardness levels). They make those bushings for most of those arms.

tic has a package for all of these points too... 95a hardness on them... pretty good... and if the caster is already at 3 and possibly over, i don't feel the need to drop the large coin on some alk's...

[Etos]

tic has a package for all of these points too... 95a hardness on them... pretty good... and if the caster is already at 3 and possibly over, i don't feel the need to drop the large coin on some alk's...

That's the old bush new bush refresh package. Very good package as it happens to replace every suspension bushing on an 818. For the price you can't beat getting 16 bushing points replaced.

They sell the front arm rear bushing alone without an ALK housing for the price of the bushing. They are big bushings and very good quality as well as no need to press them in. Definitely worth getting for people who want to get a better suspension.

[leetfade]

It's nice that TiC is right down the road from me!! :-D I may have to pay them a visit about one of these projects.

[Nuul]

You should, they seem like nice guys based on their posts on NASIOC. I'll probably be buying their TGV delete kit once it's released to the public.

[leetfade]

I have talked to them a couple times via PMs on another site. We were supposed to go sit down with them a bit but have just not had the time yet.. Now I have a new reason to. :-)

[apexanimal]

You should, they seem like nice guys based on their posts on NASIOC. I'll probably be buying their TGV delete kit once it's released to the public.

i tried to find where it was suggested how much they'll be but came up short... any idea how much those are? i really want them...