Open Design Discussion and What's NEXT!

[RodneyO]

Wow simply amazing all submissions are fantastic, I have to agree with Ramarryo the SW1 for the win I would vote for that one as well, everything about it fits all the criteria and what an amazing simple and clean design big kudos SW1!!

Thanks everyone for all the kind comments as well, If I have time today and before the contest is done I would those changes that you have suggested. Here are some more images that show the Top on the car with some color variations.
- cheers
http://www.unoverse.com/factory5/RodneyOlmos_T1.jpg
http://www.unoverse.com/factory5/RodneyOlmos_T2.jpg
http://www.unoverse.com/factory5/RodneyOlmos_T3.jpg
http://www.unoverse.com/factory5/RodneyOlmos_8.jpg
http://www.unoverse.com/factory5/RodneyOlmos_9.jpg
http://www.unoverse.com/factory5/RodneyOlmos_10.jpg
http://www.unoverse.com/factory5/RodneyOlmos_11.jpg

[Ks2]

Blue, I'm sorry, but you do realize this is a mid/rear engine car, right? What you designed looks awesome, but you have designed a front engine car! Even your exhaust would only work with a front engine car. I'm sorry, but that's not going work.

Steve

nothing is impossible... but custom headers and a whole lot of custom exhaust would be required to make a N/A motor work... turbo might be problematic... but yeah given the proportions then entire transmission would stick out the back which seems to be the bigger problem

[HermanceDesign]

Hey everyone, lots of great concepts on here. I thought I'd throw my hat in the ring with something a little different. Hopefully, it's not too off the wall. http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/dabanj6/f5_818_concept_rendering_web.jpg

[Bluewinters21]

Steve91T,
Thanks! I believe that everyone who designed a car had the same thought in mind... 'You mean that if I design a car someone might make a kit so that I can build it???' I didn't care that i had only three days to design something. I didn't even care (although it would be nice) about the cash prize. I truly loved the idea having a chance to build a car that I designed. I think a lot of people have the same dream. And to everyone who turned something in, we already beat out all those who didn't try! :cool:

[Steve91T]

nothing is impossible... but custom headers and a whole lot of custom exhaust would be required to make a N/A motor work... turbo might be problematic... but yeah given the proportions then entire transmission would stick out the back which seems to be the bigger problem

I think that design could potentially be then next FFR roadsted, but not this one. I'm sorry, that will never work as a mid engine car. Again, I am not knocking the design, I love it. It's just not the 818.

Just being realistic.
Steve

[mske390]

FFR needs to build this

I second that!

[olpro]

No Bluewinters, you just wasted your time. Next time read the contest requirements. The company took a lot of time and effort to put them out for everyone as a guide.

[Bluewinters21]

No Bluewinters, you just wasted your time. Next time read the contest requirements. The company took a lot of time and effort to put them out for everyone as a guide.
Cold, but I appreciate the honesty.

[JRL]

Not to highjack the thread. I think this is somewhat still on topic.

In reference to ONLY using the template to design these cars, Dave Smith said it himself...(paraphrasing) They wanted to keep the design as open as possible, but they had to give us something to start with.

I think every submission has some merrit in the contest. Even Bluewinters21's front/mid setup. If FF ends up modifying the chassis and component layout to mesh more with some of these designs then so be it. I think some people have gotten a little too hung up on the templates. IMHO the templates have created more than a few unattractive, bubble shaped cars. In the end the winning design will only be a component of the actual final design. The final car is up to Factory Five after all. Who knows, they may take pieces of the top ten designs and put them all together.

I'm excited to see what happens in the next year or two of production work from the engineers at FF.

The chassis is done so I doubt we will see any significant chassis redesign. I think we may see some of some of the early designs or a few design elements. I have been amazed at the quality and imagination from so many folks - stunning really. That being said I haven't seen many that could be produced within the $10 K target.

[riptide motorsport]

I'm soooooo confused! too.....many.....great.....entries! (Kirk voice)

[Steve91T]

Cold, but I appreciate the honesty.

I have also been blown away with the quality of the designs. And I'm not just talking about what programs were used. There are many talented people out there. While olpro's comment was blunt, it's true. For the last 2 months, there have been nothing but mid/rear engine designs and it's been very clear that the 818 is going to be mid/rear engine. Some simple research would have saved you a lot of trouble.

But, that being said, you designed an awesome car that you should be very proud of. It's like a modern version of one of my favorite cars, the 240Z. I'd be willing to bet that someday, someone will have a kit car that will work with your design.

Steve

[thebeerbaron]

Hey olpro, did you ever submit anything? I know you weren't willing to show your hand before the deadline, but since that's pretty much here... love to see your entry. I promise not to use any tact when reviewing it ;)

[unclebigbad]

Steve91T,
Thanks! I believe that everyone who designed a car had the same thought in mind... 'You mean that if I design a car someone might make a kit so that I can build it???' I didn't care that i had only three days to design something. I didn't even care (although it would be nice) about the cash prize. I truly loved the idea having a chance to build a car that I designed. I think a lot of people have the same dream. And to everyone who turned something in, we already beat out all those who didn't try! :cool:
Right on!

[readymix]

SW1 finishing the thread strong! It's like the evolution of the designs came to perfection. It's sleek and exotic, but simple at the same time. The lines flow nice, there's no unneeded scoops or vents anywhere. It flows perfectly.

[Reload]

I agree with Bluewinters21 and unclebigbad about simply enjoying the chance to try (though I spent 2 months versus Blue's 3 days). I am not a designer and I know that some talented ID guy will probably come in and with this. Anyway, it's been fun. It's like buying a $5 ticket in Megabucks. It's fun to dream about the possibilities.

As an engineer, I tried hard to follow the template, keep it simple, yet make it distinctive. And I agree the template is very constraining. And with no comments on my design it appears that it hurt the overall look (that or everyone simply hates my personal design aesthetic). Anyway, sometimes accomplishing the goal while being heavily constrained makes things that much more impressive. It's easy to make a beautiful design for $100K+. It is nearly impossible for a mere $10K.

Good luck everyone!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3491/5788303413_0f58f2f5a5_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5107/5788904576_7d056cc24b_b.jpg

[Oppenheimer]

SW1 finishing the thread strong! It's like the evolution of the designs came to perfection. It's sleek and exotic, but simple at the same time. The lines flow nice, there's no unneeded scoops or vents anywhere. It flows perfectly.

It is quite stunning. I like how it can be done as a Roadster or a Targa. Is there enough headroom for the Wookies?

[cayeya]

Adrian/cayeya, that car gets better looking every time I see it - did you lower the seating position from standard? Good luck.

Hi, Thanks!... Yes,the seating position is lower than normal, to give a more racing/sport sensation to the driver.

[Bluewinters21]

Reload,
Well said!
I cannot believe that no one has commented on your work. There is nothing worse than putting your heart and soul into something and having it being completely ignored. Especially since your designs is really quite good! The overall shape is pleasing to the eye. A targa top works well with it and I am definitely a fan of targa tops. The lines are most certainly there. I think that I would like to see it a little less boxy though. More curve and I think your design would be hard to beat.

[Ramarryo]

It is a very cool design. The headlights are very Ferrari like. However, I still like yours the best Mario! :)

Thanks! It's good to still have some fans out there. :o

[kach22i]

I like SW1/Shawn's design very much despite comparing it to my old Geo Tracker. I perhaps should have compared it to the current generation of Porsche 911 Targa, but I've not been inside one of those. They differ from my own 1977 911 targa which comes pretty close to a convertible feel with the top off.

Since SW1/Shawn did not post a profile/section/side elevation view, I resorted to other means to qualm my curiosity about the drivers position and adhersion to the templates. Those of you familiar with the rules of perspective drawing will understand what reversing a perspective entails, it's no easier than taking an elevation into perspective - harder in fact. The heights at the front of the perspective remain accurate and go lower as they recede. However the foreshortening (in our case the wheelbase) advances its decrease at a much more rapid rate.

The image below was generated by angling my computer screen away from me and taking a photograph. I downloaded the photo to my computer where I leveled it to the horizontal plane. I printed out the image and cut the sheet of paper in half, lengthening the wheelbase. Again, following the rules of perspective the heights of front to rear tires were corrected by angling the computer screen, and at the expense of foreshortening the wheelbase.

A picture is worth a thousand words. My conclusion is that many of my favorite designs have lowered and move forward the driver's position. I did not have the balls to do this myself, and wish them all the best of luck. Perhaps in the end Factory Five will relent and follow suit, only time will tell.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/SW1-ELEVATION-STUDY.jpg

As a double check of any design, and in an easier manner, draw a line at the top tangent points of the tires. Simply scale the height of the tire at either or both ends and just above it mark that same distance directly above it. Draw a line connecting the dots. This is where the roof of the car will be (see profile drawing), connect the dots and be done.

EDIT: This should make it more obvious.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Height-Study-profile.jpg

Example when applied:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Perspective-ht-study.jpg

[2KWIK4U]

It is quite stunning. I like how it can be done as a Roadster or a Targa. Is there enough headroom for the Wookies?

This Wookie hopes so too!

[VTX]

Hey everyone, lots of great concepts on here. I thought I'd throw my hat in the ring with something a little different. Hopefully, it's not too off the wall. http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/dabanj6/f5_818_concept_rendering_web.jpg

Very interesting concept. I like it!

[crackedcornish]

I like SW1/Shawn's design very much despite comparing it to my old Geo Tracker. I perhaps should have compared it to the current generation of Porsche 911 Targa, but I've not been inside one of those. They differ from my own 1977 911 targa which comes pretty close to a convertible feel with the top off.

Since SW1/Shawn did not post a profile/section/side elevation view, I resorted to other means to qualm my curiosity about the drivers position and adhersion to the templates. Those of you familiar with the rules of perspective drawing will understand what reversing a perspective entails, it's no easier than taking an elevation into perspective - harder in fact. The heights at the front of the perspective remain accurate and go lower as they recede. However the foreshortening (in our case the wheelbase) advances its decrease at a much more rapid rate.

The image below was generated by angling my computer screen away from me and taking a photograph. I downloaded the photo to my computer where I leveled it to the horizontal plane. I printed out the image and cut the sheet of paper in half, lengthening the wheelbase. Again, following the rules of perspective the heights of front to rear tires were corrected by angling the computer screen, and at the expense of foreshortening the wheelbase.

A picture is worth a thousand words. My conclusion is that many of my favorite designs have lowered and move forward the driver's position. I did not have the balls to do this myself, and wish them all the best of luck. Perhaps in the end Factory Five will relent and follow suit, only time will tell.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/SW1-ELEVATION-STUDY.jpg

As a double check of any design, and in an easier manner, draw a line at the top tangent points of the tires. Simply scale the height of the tire at either or both ends and just above it mark that same distance directly above it. Draw a line connecting the dots. This is where the roof of the car will be (see profile drawing), connect the dots and be done.

well...Dave did say not to let the template stifle the creativity of the designs, and some people took advantage of that, and made some beautifully low profiled cars like cayeya's gorgeous homage to the porsche 550 spyder

this car, with a few small tweaks to the hood for an air exhaust from the radiator and to the front fenders to allow the use of the subaru lights as in xabier's or 05xtsy's designs, is near perfect IMHO :cool:
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/b4a57870.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/e7dec789.jpg

[Steve91T]

I agree with Bluewinters21 and unclebigbad about simply enjoying the chance to try (though I spent 2 months versus Blue's 3 days). I am not a designer and I know that some talented ID guy will probably come in and with this. Anyway, it's been fun. It's like buying a $5 ticket in Megabucks. It's fun to dream about the possibilities.

As an engineer, I tried hard to follow the template, keep it simple, yet make it distinctive. And I agree the template is very constraining. And with no comments on my design it appears that it hurt the overall look (that or everyone simply hates my personal design aesthetic). Anyway, sometimes accomplishing the goal while being heavily constrained makes things that much more impressive. It's easy to make a beautiful design for $100K+. It is nearly impossible for a mere $10K.

Good luck everyone!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3491/5788303413_0f58f2f5a5_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5107/5788904576_7d056cc24b_b.jpg

The boxy look is really growing on me. The more I look at the the more I like it. Any more views?

Steve

[kach22i]

The chassis is done so I doubt we will see any significant chassis redesign.
I agree, anyone running their own small business would understand this.

[kach22i]

well...Dave did say not to let the template stifle the creativity of the designs
I don't think Dave cares if you (or I) win, but he is interested in seeing options if it don't cost him anything.

I've had many college professors, bosses and then later my own clients say things and later recant what they have said. Sometimes people just say things to hear what they sound like. You want to know the truth, actual motivation and real intent of someone? Follow the money. In this case a redesign is not something I would put all my faith in.

[crackedcornish]

I don't think Dave cares if you (or I) win, but he is interested in seeing options if it don't cost him anything.

I've had many college professors, bosses and then later my own clients say things and later recant what they have said. Sometimes people just say things to hear what they sound like. You want to know the truth, actual motivation and real intent of someone? Follow the money. In this case a redesign is not something I would put all my faith in.

if FFR thinks it will sell a lot more cars by doing a redesign...they WILL redesign ;)

those guys are always trying to make a better car, besides it's not like they've built a thousand frames already...right?

p.s. I do admire the people who stuck to the templates and were still able to pull off some of the great looking designs that were submitted, I just think they were at a disadvantage by limiting themselves...just my http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/407267d1.gif

[SW1]

Thanks for the great response! Really love the enthusiasm for the 818 in general.

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-002.jpg

[SW1]

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-012.jpg

[ScottyB]

oh man, these last 2 pages have gotten awesome. I love the simplicity and flowing lines of SW1's. Hermance's also immediately made me think of a more livable style of caterham7 with that open front end. I'm impressed every time I check this thread.

[HermanceDesign]

Thanks VTX. I knew I was taking a chance with my design as it's fairly outside the box. Originally, I had hoped to have enough time to do this one and another that conformed at bit more to a more traditional body-type shown on many concepts. In the end, I was more enthusiastic about this design because it offers an opportunity to have something truly unique, bold and memorable for FFR to produce.

It sort of takes DNA of every car they produce and fits it into a nimble, versatile package that can be easily personalized and accessorized. It's a little hot rod, a little vintage racer, a little supercar, a little go-kart and it's just as well-mannered on the street as it is on the track. Plus, it's weatherproof for those of us that live in a climate that doesn't see 85% sun year round and want to enjoy their toys. Roadsters are really nice, but it would sit in my garage more than my hardtop or even my drop-top.

On the other hand, a full bodied hard top is easily going to tip the scales without some serious engineering. That was the main driving force that led me to taper the front end.

Though this discussion has been met with controversy because of the obvious complexity and engineering required, I had envisioned that this car had the ability to shed the rear body section, thereby opening up the wheels. This would allow a buyer to potentially convert it to AWD and use it as a rally car or even a baja racer with some mods to the chassis and suspension. It's not something that FFR would want to get involved with, I'm sure, but it provides an opportunity for some innovation. Let the rock throwing begin...LOL.

[Ks2]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/dabanj6/f5_818_concept_rendering_web.jpg

like a futuristic caterham (with a hard top!) or a mid engined panoz roadster... the black version looks like it would have a pretty big blind spot

it says 02 STI lights and good luck finding some, the JDM ones i shipped in years ago have skyrocketed in price since, but i do know DEPO makes cheaper replacement ones that look great.

[Dave Smith]

The judges are looking at the submissions and we will have the results announced at our Open House and we will also post the results on our website (www.factoryfive.com) and here on the forum. I am frustrated that we do not have the resources to build 30 different cars on this chassis since so many of these design submissions have been great.

Big thanks to everyone who participated and to the great crew at Grassroots Motorsports and to all the customers who have been so great and creative and added so much energy to this process!

[Steve91T]

The judges are looking at the submissions and we will have the results announced at our Open House and we will also post the results on our website (www.factoryfive.com) and here on the forum. I am frustrated that we do not have the resources to build 30 different cars on this chassis since so many of these design submissions have been great.

Big thanks to everyone who participated and to the great crew at Grassroots Motorsports and to all the customers who have been so great and creative and added so much energy to this process!

I think once you see how desirable the 818 is going to be, I think FFR will someday have the resources! You guys are really onto something. I'd be surprised if this is the only light weight, tight budget car you guys build.

This is going to be awesome.

[Hiryu]

That was fun. My last entry was less about the car (though I did try to incorporate a hardtop with gull wings and the full 818 template along with the proposed chassis) and more about the technology that could be used inside. Yes, I know the car body includes some large parts that probably can't be fabricated. And yes, I know the driver interface is probably a lot more than the $10,000 could afford. But I figured it might be cool in a higher-spec version or even going forward in some higher-level cars:
http://murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X12/X12InteriorInformation.jpg

A video showing the gull wing doors and the start-up sequence of the driver interface:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_-daC64sOU

Informational:
http://murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X12/X12InformationalLR.jpg

Just for fun, all the cars I actually submitted in the contest:
http://murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/XAll2.jpg


Mike

[riptide motorsport]

I would love to see OLdpro's design...........Bet we never do though. .......something about talk and action.

[HermanceDesign]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/dabanj6/f5_818_concept_rendering_web.jpg

like a futuristic caterham (with a hard top!) or a mid engined panoz roadster... the black version looks like it would have a pretty big blind spot

it says 02 STI lights and good luck finding some, the JDM ones i shipped in years ago have skyrocketed in price since, but i do know DEPO makes cheaper replacement ones that look great.

Are the comparison to the Caterham and Panoz a good thing? LOL As far as the blind spots, unless you've got something completely topless or have a Barris-style bubble top, they're always there. Anytime you have a sleek roofline like this, they're a trade off. I suppose I could have added a huge piece of vacuum-formed Lexan back there to achieve that slope with more visibility. It's a styling concept that will need refinement. It also wouldn't be hard to transform this kit into a roadster, just replace the targa rear section with a topless one and ditch the side and rear glass.

The 02 sti lights were just a suggestion. The concept is more about providing the flexibility to personalize the kit. Someone could just as easily buy a set of street rod or motorcycle headlights with standoffs, there's no shortage of those. I just thought it could be a cool option to tie in the Subaru theme.

[bauhaus]

if FFR thinks it will sell a lot more cars by doing a redesign...they WILL redesign ;)

those guys are always trying to make a better car, besides it's not like they've built a thousand frames already...right?

p.s. I do admire the people who stuck to the templates and were still able to pull off some of the great looking designs that were submitted, I just think they were at a disadvantage by limiting themselves...just my http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/407267d1.gif

I don't think it will need to be a total redesign anyway. The template was not meant to be taken literally like kach22i has taken it. I found the driver scale and placement to be off of where it should be given the drivetrain location and proportions of the car anyway. I think that just a few mods to the rear of SW1's design would do the trick and we would all be building some amazing looking rides.

[bbjones121]

Love this design because it gives an exotic car look to an exocar shape.


http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/dabanj6/f5_818_concept_rendering_web.jpg

like a futuristic caterham (with a hard top!) or a mid engined panoz roadster... the black version looks like it would have a pretty big blind spot

it says 02 STI lights and good luck finding some, the JDM ones i shipped in years ago have skyrocketed in price since, but i do know DEPO makes cheaper replacement ones that look great.

[kach22i]

Just for fun, all the cars I actually submitted in the contest:

Mike you crazy dude, my wife thought I was a little obsessed by doing 8 schemes. I counted 14 of yours, you must be completely obsessed.:D

You are going to throw my 4.25 submissions per entrant guess out the window.:mad:

[HermanceDesign]

Love this design because it gives an exotic car look to an exocar shape.

That's pretty much what I was going for. I'm also a bit of a hot rodder and a pro-touring muscle car fan so there's a little of that in there also. Though it's not the original intent, I could see this with a slight rake, staggered wheel/tire sizes, 5 spoke wheels, a flat black finish with a touch of tribal red and white pinstripes. In that case, I'd probably try to find a way to stuff in a FWD Caddy 500 from an early 70's Eldorado and pop some Zoomies through the rear deck.

[olpro]

I would love to see OLdpro's design...........Bet we never do though. .......something about talk and action… riptide motorsports” (post1787)

“I don't know if I would want to waste my time even looking at Olpro's design...something about show respect to get respected… bbjones121’ (post 1789)

riptide and bbjones….
I am working on a project that I intend to pursue and entering it in any competition would jeopardize my design rights to it. Therefore, as I have REPEATEDLY stated, I am not entering the 818 competition. I would have to come up with another design just for FFR and I don’t have the time to do that.

On the other hand, I HAVE posted my artwork on this site on several occasions and anyone can judge it for themselves. See the links below.
In the meantime, let’s see some of YOUR artwork.

EDIT: Insult removed from post and infraction given by Mod

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?338-Open-Design-Discussion-and-What-s-NEXT!&p=20110#post20110 post #1493 and #1501

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?1887-Drawn-Per-the-Print-Entries-that-follow-the-template&p=19277#post19277 post #17

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?1502-What-would-you-like-to-see-in-the-818&p=17867#post17867 post #67

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?338-Open-Design-Discussion-and-What-s-NEXT!/page32 post #1245

[Reload]

Thanks Steve91T for your comments. Below are a 3 of the 7 slides from my submission.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5110/5790927314_31207ab82f_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3459/5790927364_78842c7da8_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2116/5790369009_557f9e6000_b.jpg

If anyone is interested in seeing the rest, I'll be happy to post. Didn't want to spam this message board.

[David]

FFR needs to build this
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/b4a57870.jpg
http://www.carrera-ds.com/FactoryFive_Contest_2011/818%20CARRERA%20-%20Racing%20(Left).jpg

100% agreed!. This is beyond outstanding! Original and freaking hot...

[David Hodgkins]

Folks,

We've had several instances in this thread where people lose sight of the fact that this is a community forum, and both passive-aggressive and outright insults have been posted. Really, it's gone on longer than any of the mods like. Previously, you have managed to self-moderate yourselves back to discourse that was respectful. But it has stepped over the line with the recent outright insults. Please remember, the theme of the site is that it's all about building commmunity. Which in turn is based on mutual respect.

Let's keep it clean going forward. Nobody wants to dole out more infractions.

[speedboy]

Factory Five has done an amazing thing with this contest and the 818. Although there will only be one winner, all 400+ people who entered can feel like they had a little part in the design. there have been several renders posted lately that are genuine winners and I would build any of them in a heartbeat. I am a little sad that the contest is over, but excited about the future of the 818 as a potential customer. Here's one more render of my two entries.

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-04/59cc26b1.png

[thebeerbaron]

I am working on a project that I intend to pursue and entering it in any competition would jeopardize my design rights to it. Therefore, as I have REPEATEDLY stated, I am not entering the 818 competition. I would have to come up with another design just for FFR and I don't have the time to do that.

I am genuinely sorry you didn't throw your hat in the ring, but I understand the rights issue. Hope my smiley in the above post revealed the tongue-in-cheek nature of the jibe. Sorry I missed your posts on the matter, I haven't read much of this thread.

[olpro]

beerbaron, your comment was funny and quite harmless. On the other hand, I got out of hand and will take this opportunity to apologize to all. Fortunately, Mr. Hodgkins was quick with the edit.

[Vman7]

Ok what's deal with posting pictures then later they are just gone.........

[Vman7]

Ok, I will try and repost this again to see if the pictures show up.

Well so much for making the deadline, just no way I will have the side view done in time.

Must be nice to be able to use 3D modeling software, but since I don't have any, not to mention I can't afford it. I just have to do with Photoshop CS3.

Here is what I have so far.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2225&d=1307067880
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2224&d=1307067877
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2226&d=1307067882
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2227&d=1307067884

Good luck to everybody!

[Steve91T]

Ok, I will try and repost this again to see if the pictures show up.

Well so much for making the deadline, just no way I will have the side view done in time.

Must be nice to be able to use 3D modeling software, but since I don't have any, not to mention I can't afford it. I just have to do with Photoshop CS3.

Here is what I have so far.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2225&d=1307067880
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2224&d=1307067877
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2226&d=1307067882
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2227&d=1307067884

Good luck to everybody!

I think you should send it anyway, just as it is. That's a sharp looking car.

[Vman7]

I think you should send it anyway, just as it is. That's a sharp looking car.

Thanks!, probably too late to send it. I crashed and burned about 10PM last night trying to finish the front end and just said the hell with it.......oh well.

[cudakid210]

here's my entry. one Point I would like to highlight is that it was designed with its size in mind. a lot of these designs are great, but will look silly on a car the size of a stratos. here's an example of what i'm talking about: http://www.smcars.net/forums/attachments/work-progress-rendering-animation/117172d1296326612-2-aston-martin-db9-aston-martin-db9-db9-volante-1.jpeg vs. http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7673/amx071ch3.jpg
Here is my entry! http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/cudakid210/JamieGoldsteinProfileFinalized.jpg http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/cudakid210/4Finalized.jpg http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae99/cudakid210/4Finalized-1.jpg

[Bluewinters21]

Vman7,
First off, your design is amazing. I think that you should have turned that in. It's definitely one of my favorites. Second, I used modeling software and my submission is nowhere near as good as yours. And last but not least, the modeling software that I used is a free student copy from a long time ago...

[cudakid210]

Sorry, redacted

[kach22i]

Well so much for making the deadline, just no way I will have the side view done in time.
This is the same car from months ago in which you took 8 inches out of the wheelbase and compared to the 918 Porsche, right? I loved that design, you call it the Vantage, right?

Did you send any other designs in, or was all of your time spent on one design concept?

[kach22i]

here's my entry.
There is something to be said for following the KISS Method.

Not bad.

Thank you for sharing.

[Vman7]

This is the same car from months ago in which you took 8 inches out of the wheelbase and compared to the 918 Porsche, right? I loved that design, you call it the Vantage, right?

Did you send any other designs in, or was all of your time spent on one design concept?

Yes, Yes, no, yes in order. My time was limited.

[kach22i]

Bummer man................I'm guessing you may suffer from being a no compromise perfectionist of sorts. I would have turned in a sketch on a napkin if I felt the concept was strong enough. Your design would have look fine on a napkin.

Live and learn.

[Fifty-Two]

There it is ... my next project.
Period.

Well done SW1.

- John





http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-008.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-009.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-011.jpg

[bbjones121]

That is very nice.


Ok, I will try and repost this again to see if the pictures show up.

Well so much for making the deadline, just no way I will have the side view done in time.

Must be nice to be able to use 3D modeling software, but since I don't have any, not to mention I can't afford it. I just have to do with Photoshop CS3.

Here is what I have so far.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2225&d=1307067880
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2224&d=1307067877
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2226&d=1307067882
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2227&d=1307067884

Good luck to everybody!

[Ks2]

Are the comparison to the Caterham and Panoz a good thing?

the panoz is a 90's era american roadster with a big ford V8 under the hood, its around 2500 lbs with an aluminum chassis
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/attachments/f162/101334d1226501693-wtt-panoz-aiv-roadster-elise-exige-pass_resized.jpg

the caterham is a European kit car that uses a ford duratech 4 cylinder motor (or cosworth if you have the money)
http://www.caterham.co.uk/assets/html/showroom.html

both are FR and are not terribly pleasant to ride in or drive on a daily basis, a MR with hardtop that handles like the caterham and has power near what the panoz roadster made would be one hell of a car indeed...

[bbjones121]

I was just about to comment on the air flow required for the intercooler and saw the two upper intake vents. I think this might be my favorite. Simplistic, exotic, and elegant. Get led brake lights (maybe sequence the leds so that when you turn a blinker on, the leds light in series toward the direction turning, starting from upper and lower middle of circle around until the lights meet on the out most point), led running lights, hid headlights, gold Brembo brake calipers in fronts and rears, a nice paint job and thin gaps at panel splits, spend some time with moldings/weatherstripping to make it look production (not kit), work with stripping to make doors close with deep/clean thud sound and this could be a car you park next to lamborghinis and farraris without objection. I can definitely see my wife and I going out to a fancy dinner downtown in something like this. Great job!



http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-007.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-008.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-009.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-010.jpg

http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/m536/SW818/whetstone-011.jpg

[readymix]

I was just about to comment on the air flow required for the intercooler and saw the two upper intake vents. I think this might be my favorite. Simplistic, exotic, and elegant. Get led brake lights (maybe sequence the leds so that when you turn a blinker on, the leds light in series toward the direction turning, starting from upper and lower middle of circle around until the lights meet on the out most point), led running lights, hid headlights, gold Brembo brake calipers in fronts and rears, a nice paint job and thin gaps at panel splits, spend some time with moldings/weatherstripping to make it look production (not kit), work with stripping to make doors close with deep/clean thud sound and this could be a car you park next to lamborghinis and farraris without objection. I can definitely see my wife and I going out to a fancy dinner downtown in something like this. Great job!

I was thinking the same thing. It'd have FFR's subframe for performance driving, but it has the looks that you feel good about driving around in. I would love to take the lady out for dinner where they had valet parking and roll up in something that looks like that.

[Senger]

Shawn, just gotta say that you nailed it! Yours has the elegance, simplicity, and spirit of lightweight power written all over it. The rear end is very unique and gives it that hunkered-down appearance. Your work prompted me to Google your work, and doing so led me to this awesome piece:

http://www.zukun.com/images/work/sln/image2.jpg

Excellent work by so many entrants recently. Kudos to you all!

[readymix]

Shawn, just gotta say that you nailed it! Yours has the elegance, simplicity, and spirit of lightweight power written all over it. The rear end is very unique and gives it that hunkered-down appearance. Your work prompted me to Google your work, and doing so led me to this awesome piece:

http://www.zukun.com/images/work/sln/image2.jpg

Excellent work by so many entrants recently. Kudos to you all!

I just googled him too. You guys did the RCR superlite stuff? Nice work!

[HermanceDesign]

the panoz is a 90's era american roadster with a big ford V8 under the hood, its around 2500 lbs with an aluminum chassis
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/attachments/f162/101334d1226501693-wtt-panoz-aiv-roadster-elise-exige-pass_resized.jpg

the caterham is a European kit car that uses a ford duratech 4 cylinder motor (or cosworth if you have the money)
http://www.caterham.co.uk/assets/html/showroom.html

both are FR and are not terribly pleasant to ride in or drive on a daily basis, a MR with hardtop that handles like the caterham and has power near what the panoz roadster made would be one hell of a car indeed...

I knew what they were but didn't want to assume that it was a positive or negative comparison. I've personally never been a fan of either one from a styling perspective but I could appreciate the underlying concept and configuration.

[kach22i]

If we have seen 70 different designs posted in this tread (I have no idea the actual number), and there were over 700 submittals then we have seen only 10th of what the judges will see.

Take your favorite designs which you think are worthy, and multiply by 10. That is the amount which you as a judge would have to painstaking seriously compare and then decide.

I've mentioned that I have a top five list, to be honest it's more like a top ten list (not including any of my own). I'd be face with 100 cars which I would love to see built.

It's nice to say you love a particular car, and that it's the best. However the situation is much more daunting than most of us can ever imagine.

That said, I've been a judge (architectural) and things do sort themselves out. Certain strong personalities can sway or herd others in a general direction, but the top 3-5 designs typically stand out over the politics.

[bbjones121]

I totally agree. Whenever I thought I had my heart set on a particular design, the judges came out with a weekly winner and shattered my idea of the "best" design. As of what I have seen so far, I like the elegant performance look of SW1's design plus it looks like only 13 body panels that look pretty easy to create molds for.

[bbjones121]

SW1, the only thing I could see is turbulent air from the passenger compartment disrupting airflow into the rear scoops when windows are down. Has this been considered? There may be some real world cars that have undergone windtunnel testing that prove it is not a big deal. Does anyone know about this?

[David Hodgkins]

SW1, the only thing I could see is turbulent air from the passenger compartment disrupting airflow into the rear scoops when windows are down. Has this been considered? There may be some real world cars that have undergone windtunnel testing that prove it is not a big deal. Does anyone know about this?

I was wondering about that earlier today, only I was thinking about the lack of scoop in general. Because of the slipstream effect I think the air (with the windows closed) would travel over the top of that inlet. I'm no aero-expert but I remember a similar thread elsewhere discussing the height of scoops for the GTM on top of the roof and behind the rear quarter windows to feed air into the engine bay.

BTW that design is in my personal top 3...

:)

[bbjones121]

That makes sense, but I am no expert with this either. I think some actual wind tunnel testing with MAF sensors would allow slight shape adjustments to direct air where it needs to go. Does FFR do windtunnel testing on the final body to make sure adequate flow for the radiator, intercooler, intake, and engine cooling? It would be nice to have soon C/D reduction and downforce increase mods incorporated into the body instead of needing to be added later.

[Steve91T]

I can talk about the MR2, which is more or less a similar shape. The area over the engine bay will swirl, causing a low pressure area. I taped pieces of thread all over the back of my MR2 one day and watched the strings on the wing were nothing but turbulent, and actually pointing towards the front of the car. The engine lid strings were stranding straight up.

SW1's design is beautiful. I just wish it had large side vents. It needs them. Air flowing around the side of the car is relatively high pressure, and if that's ducted through the engine bay and out the engine lid, or rear of the car, you would have a tremendous amount of airflow. Or, a scoop on the top of the roof ducted though an IC and out the rear of the car would probably work also.

It wouldn't take a whole lot to figure out how to get some serious airflow through the engine bay of the 818. I had an intercooler set up on my MR2 that ducted high pressure air from under the car via a scoop, up through the engine bay, through the IC, and out the top of the engine lid. Worked great.

Steve

[David Hodgkins]

They did windtunnel testing on the Gen 1 GTM, I know for sure. Not sure about the Gen2. There were some great pics floating around at the time. I haven't been told that they definitely will do windtunnel testing but as this is a new model I'm sure it will follow a similar path as the GTM, which was clay-modeled and tunnel tested...

I'll see if I can find some of those old pics to post...

:)

[David Hodgkins]

Check these out:

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/images/windtunnel/windtunnel5.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/images/windtunnel/windtunnel4.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/images/windtunnel/windtunnel2.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/images/windtunnel/windtunnel3.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/images/windtunnel/windtunnel1.jpg

Here's a link to the windtunnel story from FFR:
http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/aerodynamicstest.html

[readymix]

That makes sense, but I am no expert with this either. I think some actual wind tunnel testing with MAF sensors would allow slight shape adjustments to direct air where it needs to go. Does FFR do windtunnel testing on the final body to make sure adequate flow for the radiator, intercooler, intake, and engine cooling? It would be nice to have soon C/D reduction and downforce increase mods incorporated into the body instead of needing to be added later.

Alot of the Subaru stuff is passively cooled for the most part. Even most of the heavily built Subarus are. The intake on all Subarus simply carries air from a spot forward of the engine to the intake manifold through a filter. Air isn't forced in there. As long as it draws from a spot that doesn't have high temps associated with it (asphalt heat, engine heat, post radiator air flow) it'll be fine. The intercoolers on the WRX and STi are already subject to heat soak at speed even with the scoop. The scoop itself isn't as critical as you might think. Up until freeway speeds, it is all but useless at moving air through the intercooler core anyway. Having the firewall moved away from the immediate exit of the airflow for the intercooler will likely go a long way towards evacuating air as long as there is decent airflow into the engine bay area. The radiator is located in the front (on the drawings of the chassis at least) and will, as long as you are moving forward, have positive pressure on the leading face of it. Any opening behind it, as long as it has a hole to get out, should be sufficient air flow. At a stop, you rely on fans. Engine cooling is a function of the radiator and coolant system. In the mid engine configuration with a front radiator, you will be introducing around 7 - 8 feet of aluminum coolant piping to get the coolant from the engine to the radiator, and another 7 - 8 feet to get it back. This will passively cool the coolant considerably, especially since it will likely run on the underbelly of the car, which will be subjected to turbulent air rushing beneath the car.

Scoops and such are neat in theory, but are likely unnecessary in this car, or at the very least will be under-used for 99% of the install base. I know and have helped to build some Subarus in the past, and even at 400-500whp output levels, they aren't doing any added ducting or venting to the heat critical components. The 500whp cars are simply running an all aluminum radiator in the stock location, and with a front mounted intercooler parked directly in front of it. Just taking the AC condenser core out of the equation will free up some air flow. And as for intakes, honestly, in this configuration, you should just plan on running some sort of aftermarket solution or FFR should supply a pipe. The stock airbox assembly isn't going to work at all in any car you build as it was designed specificly to duct air from a seam in the hood, to the passenger fenderwall and then back in to the airbox. Forcing the body lines to conform to an OEM airbox assembly is a bad idea. It would be like saying "We have to add 6 feet to the back of the car beyond the rear axle so that the oem exhaust can fit under it without sticking out too far.

[riptide motorsport]

readymix is correct. 69' Fairlady......nice ride!

[Vman7]

Now that this craziness is over (a real waste of my time by the way) I can get back to working off and on, on my '33 hot rod and 65 coupe design mod.s, which I love a lot more anyways.

[readymix]

readymix is correct. 69' Fairlady......nice ride!

HAHA, thanks :) I have a love hate relationship with the thing. It almost got sold off unfinished because I never get time to work on it. I have a couple local pals that expressed interest in helping with some welding work on the body, so I think I'll keep it around. Can't hurt really, free welding is free welding. I wish I had pics that were worthy of viewing, but most of it is rusty parts and cutting frame bits out to make room for SR20s

[StatGSR]

^ bummer readymix, now i know why i haven't seen a good update on your fairlady in some time.... :(

[thebeerbaron]

readymix, I agree that cooling won't be much of an issue, but after looking at the donor, I've come to appreciate the stock intercooler location. What I really love is that the plumbing between the compressor and the intercooler is stupidly short, and similarly short again from the intercooler to the throttle body. If I recall my turbocharger basics correctly (and I finally broke down and bought Maximum Boost so I can refresh myself), this is great for responsiveness, which I think we all agree will be really important in this car.

That's a really long way of saying that I hope whatever the air requirements of the intercooler are, it can be met in the stock location. Saves money too, proper turbo plumbing costs money. And considering the performance targets of this car, under-cooling the intake charge is not going to be acceptable.

I almost missed the intercooler intakes on SW1s design, I hope air won't miss them too.

[DaveM]

From Dave Smith on the 818 challenges series thread:

"Geez, what kind of crazy person would dream of making a car that could have 2-3 very different body shapes/designs? That's crazy. I don't even know where to start with that first idea. I mean, how could a company come up with three or four different body shapes that all look great?! Why most companies are lucky to ever make one good shape (there's only one pininfarina). They would need a ton of help from a ton of really passionate people who knew cars and who raced, and who designed stuff!

Thinking of it, as long as we're dreaming here, imagine if that person dreamed of not just a few diff shapes, but diff powerplants to serve those shapes the way they were designed to be used!? Perhaps one engine/trans could deliver great horsepower and ultra-performance, maybe another could be similar in architecture, but deliver a bit less power but be super afordable and still fun to drive... Maybe a thrid engine/trans could deliver great mpg in a responsible way, maybe a hybrid or a biodeisel engine like a tdi (didnt we have a tdi-powered car win some race thing and deliver 103 mpg?), way more than present cars! Those powerplants, I spose, could be matched to those body uses to be built for such varied uses like open track use, daily driver use, ultimate aero-mpg efficiency, and mini supercar!?

That's just crazy. Who would ever dream such an auspicious dream. Why you'd have to have like 15 or 20 years car-building experience, you'd need a seasoned crew that had designed cars to design goals successfully numerous times, you'd need an entire community of enthusiasts helping, you'd need the best suppliers, vendors, and technology companies... Shoot, you'd need race series experience and guys who had built your cars and racked up millions of street miles, you'd need resources and cash flow and a million other things. You'd need some time and most of all you'd need a group of guys who were directed by a truely committed visionary rather than someone who just wants to cobble parts together to make money. Why the guy would have to love what he does and be willing to work really cheap or maybe invest all he has into the idea for the simpe love of the idea. That will never happen!

I mean, imagine the hubris in a guy or company that could design a build-it-yourself car that could be so flexible, so affordable. Pure fantasy. For the sake of argument, IF someone was going to try that they would HAVE to at least start with a GREAT chassis... no a truly exceptional chassis (what company could design a great chassis like that in an affordable way? cant be done)...

We are Americans. I took the family down to Washington DC and we visited the air and space museum. I stared at the wright brothers airplane and 15 minutes later took a picture of my son in front of a Saturn V rocket engine. I don't know what we are capable of doing, but I do know that as long as I'm running this company, our reach will always exceed our grasp and we should all be humbled and inspired by the great Americans who have come before us. THEY are whispering to us a challenge.. to continue their legacy. The 818 may not reach all the goals I have for it, but in the effort, I believe we will shock and delight people, as we have for 15 years."



Looks like multiple bodies and drive trains-wow

Dave

[thebeerbaron]

a few posts down from that:




trust me, the cat is still firmly in the bag... fighting like hell to get out, but Open House will have some good surprises and fun guests. Im looking forward to it,. (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2142-Open-House-Roll-Call&p=21679&viewfull=1#post21679)

so no, the cat is not out of the bag yet.

I usually hate cats (their dander makes serious attempts to kill me), but this is one feline I'm looking forward to seeing.

[Ks2]

the difference between a front mount and top mount in terms of heat soak and temperatures is significant, and i don't even have that great of a front mount

the WRX hood scoop isn't very big but for that size intercooler you don't need much, the bigger JDM STI ones can still perform adequately with the WRX hood scoop, granted when i ran the top mount i had cut up some sheet metal covered in exhaust wrap to fit between the intercooler and the pipes feeding it, the sheet metal ran down the back to where the transmission mount was and seemed to work really well (plus it kept the intercooler sprayer from getting fluids all over the top of my block) when all is said and done i (will) have a B-line top mount oil cooler up there (as soon as i get the bearings fixed.. and the tensioner pulley... and the water pump...)

EDIT


That's a really long way of saying that I hope whatever the air requirements of the intercooler are, it can be met in the stock location. Saves money too, proper turbo plumbing costs money. And considering the performance targets of this car, under-cooling the intake charge is not going to be acceptable.

my (admittedly less then top end) front mount was around 1800$, i could see it bieng do-able only if it was mounted under the seats and the car has air ducts behind the doors to feed it, since mounting it up front means horrible boost lag... of course mounting the turbo in the front of the car has its advantages...

[Steve91T]

Alot of the Subaru stuff is passively cooled for the most part. Even most of the heavily built Subarus are. The intake on all Subarus simply carries air from a spot forward of the engine to the intake manifold through a filter. Air isn't forced in there. As long as it draws from a spot that doesn't have high temps associated with it (asphalt heat, engine heat, post radiator air flow) it'll be fine. The intercoolers on the WRX and STi are already subject to heat soak at speed even with the scoop. The scoop itself isn't as critical as you might think. Up until freeway speeds, it is all but useless at moving air through the intercooler core anyway. Having the firewall moved away from the immediate exit of the airflow for the intercooler will likely go a long way towards evacuating air as long as there is decent airflow into the engine bay area. The radiator is located in the front (on the drawings of the chassis at least) and will, as long as you are moving forward, have positive pressure on the leading face of it. Any opening behind it, as long as it has a hole to get out, should be sufficient air flow. At a stop, you rely on fans. Engine cooling is a function of the radiator and coolant system. In the mid engine configuration with a front radiator, you will be introducing around 7 - 8 feet of aluminum coolant piping to get the coolant from the engine to the radiator, and another 7 - 8 feet to get it back. This will passively cool the coolant considerably, especially since it will likely run on the underbelly of the car, which will be subjected to turbulent air rushing beneath the car.

Scoops and such are neat in theory, but are likely unnecessary in this car, or at the very least will be under-used for 99% of the install base. I know and have helped to build some Subarus in the past, and even at 400-500whp output levels, they aren't doing any added ducting or venting to the heat critical components. The 500whp cars are simply running an all aluminum radiator in the stock location, and with a front mounted intercooler parked directly in front of it. Just taking the AC condenser core out of the equation will free up some air flow. And as for intakes, honestly, in this configuration, you should just plan on running some sort of aftermarket solution or FFR should supply a pipe. The stock airbox assembly isn't going to work at all in any car you build as it was designed specificly to duct air from a seam in the hood, to the passenger fenderwall and then back in to the airbox. Forcing the body lines to conform to an OEM airbox assembly is a bad idea. It would be like saying "We have to add 6 feet to the back of the car beyond the rear axle so that the oem exhaust can fit under it without sticking out too far.

I know you know Subaru's, but putting the engine in the rear of a car changes a lot of things. I have a question about the 500 hp cars you've helped build. Are these cars track day cars? Or are they being used on the street with the occasional burst down the freeway or drag strip? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that these are not used on the track. If they are though, a front mount intercooler would probably do the trick.

Did you happen to see my post I made about the challenges of the MR2? I had my MR2 on the track quite a few times, and that intercooler always heat soaked. The car went from snappy, low boost lag, and great pull, to mushy, increased lag, and a weaker pull. The biggest problem was the down pipe out of the turbo passed very close to the IC. This didn't not help it's heat soaking issue. A water sprayer that I rigged up to mist the IC while under boost using a pressure switch worked great, but it's obviously a band aid.

I feel it's a bigger issue than you are making it out to be.

[Steve91T]

the difference between a front mount and top mount in terms of heat soak and temperatures is significant, and i don't even have that great of a front mount

the WRX hood scoop isn't very big but for that size intercooler you don't need much, the bigger JDM STI ones can still perform adequately with the WRX hood scoop, granted when i ran the top mount i had cut up some sheet metal covered in exhaust wrap to fit between the intercooler and the pipes feeding it, the sheet metal ran down the back to where the transmission mount was and seemed to work really well (plus it kept the intercooler sprayer from getting fluids all over the top of my block) when all is said and done i (will) have a B-line top mount oil cooler up there (as soon as i get the bearings fixed.. and the tensioner pulley... and the water pump...)

EDIT



my (admittedly less then top end) front mount was around 1800$, i could see it bieng do-able only if it was mounted under the seats and the car has air ducts behind the doors to feed it, since mounting it up front means horrible boost lag... of course mounting the turbo in the front of the car has its advantages...

Be careful of that oil cooler sitting on top of the engine. It'd suck to get an oil leak causing a fire.

That scoop on top of the engine has a lot of clean, cool, high pressure air flowing through it, which means it doesn't have to be that big. It's tougher to get that kind of airflow to the IC in a mid set up.

[Steve91T]

readymix, I agree that cooling won't be much of an issue, but after looking at the donor, I've come to appreciate the stock intercooler location. What I really love is that the plumbing between the compressor and the intercooler is stupidly short, and similarly short again from the intercooler to the throttle body. If I recall my turbocharger basics correctly (and I finally broke down and bought Maximum Boost so I can refresh myself), this is great for responsiveness, which I think we all agree will be really important in this car.

That's a really long way of saying that I hope whatever the air requirements of the intercooler are, it can be met in the stock location. Saves money too, proper turbo plumbing costs money. And considering the performance targets of this car, under-cooling the intake charge is not going to be acceptable.

I almost missed the intercooler intakes on SW1s design, I hope air won't miss them too.

Here's what I think. If the 818 is intended to be used at stock (or close to stock) power levels, and mostly for street, I think the stock IC location will be just fine. But not so much sitting over the engine.

I also didn't see the IC inlets on SW1's design and had to go back and find them.

As I'm typing this I started to think that maybe it could work. If an aftermarket, very efficient top mount is used, and the inlets are ducted to the IC, maybe it would be sufficient.

You have a donor, right? How much room is between the IC and the engine? A simple heat shield would probably be helpful like Ks2 said he did.

[Ks2]

steve i havn't gotten to install the oil cooler yet (need to get the thing running before i take it apart... broke alot on my last meetup with a local 350z), but its a pretty solid kit

between the IC and the engine is enough room but not a huge amount, there is ~1 inch between the Y pipe and the bottom of the IC itself the heat shield i attached to the bottom of the Y pipe that way i didn't have to cut around the turbo inlet or throttle body inlet, i had a hole in the sheet metal panel and ran a piece of threaded bar through the whole and up to the Y pipe where i wrapped a strap around the Y pipe, i used the locking nuts on either end... i never said it was pretty or would win me any awards i dont even know what extent it helped i wish i still had the thing or some pics since it is hard to explain.

[Steve91T]

steve i havn't gotten to install the oil cooler yet (need to get the thing running before i take it apart... broke alot on my last meetup with a local 350z), but its a pretty solid kit

between the IC and the engine is enough room but not a huge amount, there is ~1 inch between the Y pipe and the bottom of the IC itself the heat shield i attached to the bottom of the Y pipe that way i didn't have to cut around the turbo inlet or throttle body inlet, i had a hole in the sheet metal panel and ran a piece of threaded bar through the whole and up to the Y pipe where i wrapped a strap around the Y pipe, i used the locking nuts on either end... i never said it was pretty or would win me any awards i dont even know what extent it helped i wish i still had the thing or some pics since it is hard to explain.

Hey, when I was messing with my MR2 intercooler, all my cooling duct work were parts from Lowe's! Whatever works!

[readymix]

I know you know Subaru's, but putting the engine in the rear of a car changes a lot of things. I have a question about the 500 hp cars you've helped build. Are these cars track day cars? Or are they being used on the street with the occasional burst down the freeway or drag strip? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that these are not used on the track. If they are though, a front mount intercooler would probably do the trick.

Did you happen to see my post I made about the challenges of the MR2? I had my MR2 on the track quite a few times, and that intercooler always heat soaked. The car went from snappy, low boost lag, and great pull, to mushy, increased lag, and a weaker pull. The biggest problem was the down pipe out of the turbo passed very close to the IC. This didn't not help it's heat soaking issue. A water sprayer that I rigged up to mist the IC while under boost using a pressure switch worked great, but it's obviously a band aid.

I feel it's a bigger issue than you are making it out to be.

And I feel it is a smaller issue than everyone else is making it out to be. The intercooler, out of all the "we need more scoops" concerns is probably the most valid to be sure. But the stock unit isn't as thirsty for cool air as a 500hp car. The 400-500hp car was a reference point. Being that a 400-500hp Subaru can get by with a front mount and a radiator. Most guys aren't going to go beyond about 350whp on these things, if they're smart they wont, 350 + 1800lbs = disaster for even some more seasoned racers. My point was that at the power levels that the 818 targets for useable and manageable, you shouldn't need more than a bigger top mount. As long as there is fresh air moving across it it'll likely be fine. For the 10 lap racer or lap day driver, yeah, you might want a scoop or a water sprayer. But you are RACING. If you determine you need part "A" to get around the track more efficiently, or you need to add bigger scoops, do it.

[bbjones121]

I agree on the top intercooler being able to handle close to 500hp(not whp of course). The thing is that some testing will need to be done to even make sure the top mount is adequately cooled. To note on this, I have never seen a stock top mount ic putting more than 300hp on the ground. In order to meet the 500hp(not whp ) goal you will need to get an AVO, Perrin, or other "aftermarket" top mount. These are thicker than the stock mount, thus require a bit more clearance in the design.




And I feel it is a smaller issue than everyone else is making it out to be. The intercooler, out of all the "we need more scoops" concerns is probably the most valid to be sure. But the stock unit isn't as thirsty for cool air as a 500hp car. The 400-500hp car was a reference point. Being that a 400-500hp Subaru can get by with a front mount and a radiator. Most guys aren't going to go beyond about 350whp on these things, if they're smart they wont, 350 + 1800lbs = disaster for even some more seasoned racers. My point was that at the power levels that the 818 targets for useable and manageable, you shouldn't need more than a bigger top mount. As long as there is fresh air moving across it it'll likely be fine. For the 10 lap racer or lap day driver, yeah, you might want a scoop or a water sprayer. But you are RACING. If you determine you need part "A" to get around the track more efficiently, or you need to add bigger scoops, do it.

[riptide motorsport]

Thats what tinkering is for,,,,,,,,,Let FFR produce it , we'll build it and figure out the rest. Just like we do with any OEM car.

[bbjones121]

I agree, but if the hood of a wrx had no clearance for the extra space for a thicker intercooler, an after market company would have design a whole new hood. I think a little bit of forethought on performance upgrades does not hurt or require much effort at the design phase. Of course this does not mean to take it to the extreme and try to design for every aftermarket part out there, that would be absurd, but to keep in mind that people will be "tinkering" with this car when FFR is deciding between 1/4" or 1" clearance above the engine, should not be that difficult.



Thats what tinkering is for,,,,,,,,,Let FFR produce it , we'll build it and figure out the rest. Just like we do with any OEM car.

[Ks2]

i agree you don't need a giant scoop to maximize cooling on the intercooler as long as the air coming into the intercooler can be vented out somewhere (preferably with the air being pushed towards the turbo, something i wish i had tried)

the giant aftermarket ones just have a larger surface area the actual length and width are the same (height may be a bit bigger since there is room to play above the Y pipe) so irregardless we (by that i mean F5) already know the surface area that the scoop(s) need to provide air to cover

[StatGSR]

so irregardless

hehe ;)

[Ks2]

I'm fairly sure that's a word...

[riptide motorsport]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless

[Exidous]

I could care less. Irreguarless of what you guys think! :-p

<.<

>.>

:-)

I just want to be able to fit comfortably. At 6'3" and 220lbs I find MANY cars unsuitable. My V8 Rx-7 is at the absolute limit for comfort. :-(

[riptide motorsport]

I dont fit into a rx-7 and I'm 6' , 200lbs!!!!

[David Hodgkins]

Y'all have little peoples disease. :D I'm definitely putting my 2 cents in and pleading with Dave Smith to make the 818 wookie-compatible. I'm not holding my breath, but remain a little hopeful..

:)

[Bluewinters21]

I’m a 6’1” 215 lb weight lifter who drives a Miata. I never understood those who say certain cars are too small.

[crackedcornish]

I’m a 6’1” 215 lb weight lifter who drives a Miata. I never understood those who say certain cars are too small.

sounds like you're in very good physical condition, so evidently...

..where some guys carry their weight matters in being able to fit behind the steering wheel ;)

[kach22i]

I dont fit into a rx-7 and I'm 6' , 200lbs!!!!

I read many comments similar to this early on in the contest. Also the script said they want a car people could drive in traffic without fearing for their lives, as they might with a really short car.

1. It is possible to make a nicely proportioned car based on the template, overlaying a Boxster/Caymen drawing should prove this to anyone - unless you hate the Boxster/Cayman.

2. People who choose to take 8" out of the wheelbase, lower the seating position by 10", move the driver 8" close to the front, lower the car, reduce the rear overhang and so forth, do so at their own risk. Yes, it is easier to make a better looking car this way, but the frame and powerplant is set, and not many buyers under 5'-6" tall.

Here are some drawings to clarify and help you see things my way. Should FFR recant and decide to go with a noncompliant design, I'll look silly, but it will not be the first time, so I'll get over it.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/height-study.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Height-Study-profile.jpg

One of my 8 entries as an example of sticking to the template:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Scheme5-section-POST.jpg

[Steve91T]

How does SW1's design do as far as sticking to the template?

[crackedcornish]

I read many comments similar to this early on in the contest. Also the script said they want a car people could drive in traffic without fearing for their lives, as they might with a really short car.

1. It is possible to make a nicely proportioned car based on the template, overlaying a Boxster/Caymen drawing should prove this to anyone - unless you hate the Boxster/Cayman.

2. People who choose to take 8" out of the wheelbase, lower the seating position by 10", move the driver 8" close to the front, lower the car, reduce the rear overhang and so forth, do so at their own risk. Yes, it is easier to make a better looking car this way, but the frame and powerplant is set, and not many buyers under 5'-6" tall.

Here are some drawings to clarify and help you see things my way. Should FFR recant and decide to go with a noncompliant design, I'll look silly, but it will not be the first time, so I'll get over it.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/height-study.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Height-Study-profile.jpg

One of my 8 entries as an example of sticking to the template:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/GKA-Scheme5-section-POST.jpg

k,the design contest is over and it's up to the judges now...it's time to stop campaigning for a/your car that adhered to the templates and move on buddy :)

just sit back, relax, and wait for the announcement of the winning design like the rest of us, before you give yourself an aneurism or something :D

[kach22i]

How does SW1's design do as far as sticking to the template?

See post 1771
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?338-Open-Design-Discussion-and-What-s-NEXT!/page45

[kach22i]

just sit back, relax,
You do the same, and stop with the false accusations.

[crackedcornish]

You do the same, and stop with the false accusations.

Dude, you need to learn how to read emoticons! it was all in fun, sorry you have such thin skin :(

[Exidous]

I dont fit into a rx-7 and I'm 6' , 200lbs!!!!

It's my torso height and leg length that is the issue. If I wear a helmet I have to slouch down and at all times the steering wheel is about 3 inches north of my kneecaps. Obviously the helmet hitting the roof wouldn't be an issue with the 818 but looking straight at the top of the windscreen may drive someone to madness. :-) A long telescopic steering wheel would be nice too!

[Ks2]

if the standard subaru steering column is used then it would be adjustable but i do not know if that would be the case

[olpro]

Seems like the steering column, along with the wiring, would be a good thing to carry over from the donor.

[2KWIK4U]

Y'all have little peoples disease. :D I'm definitely putting my 2 cents in and pleading with Dave Smith to make the 818 wookie-compatible. I'm not holding my breath, but remain a little hopeful..

:)

I have to agree with David, I am an honest 6' at 250 lbs and would like to see it wookie compatable too. The FFR Roadster I built was a little small but great to drive.

[Niburu]

I dont fit into a rx-7 and I'm 6' , 200lbs!!!!


I’m a 6’1” 215 lb weight lifter who drives a Miata. I never understood those who say certain cars are too small.


It's my torso height and leg length that is the issue. If I wear a helmet I have to slouch down and at all times the steering wheel is about 3 inches north of my kneecaps. Obviously the helmet hitting the roof wouldn't be an issue with the 818 but looking straight at the top of the windscreen may drive someone to madness. :-) A long telescopic steering wheel would be nice too!

I'm 6 foot dead even at 230-240lbs depending on the time of day and how much yard work I've done in the week.
I've had both the FC and FD RX-7's and currently have a 90 Miata, (and 83 911 Targa) - all of which I fit into very comfortably, even with the beer weight around the midsection.
Torso height is going to be the real issue I think f.or this car design, looking at the early chassis rendering it looks to have plenty of legroom lengthwize.
As Exidos mentioned looking straight at the windscreen to is maddening in Miata, I usally have to look over the top of it for traffic lights when the tops down.

So here's hoping for some Wookie design compliance in the design.

[Steve91T]

Don't you guys think that if you really aren't going to fit, modifications could be made? I'm 6'0" even and weigh about 180. I like to sit low in cars, but have never met a car I wasn't comfortable in.

Maybe even just a modifying the seat cushion to remove foam? That could give you an inch right there. Or, as I'm going to be doing with my Camaro seat brackets, cutting and re welding them to lower them 1.5".

I'm sure it'll all work out in the end. FFR isn't going to make a car that only a sub 6'0 person could fit into.

Steve

[wjfawb0]

I'm 6'-0" and 230lbs (big boned :D ). I daily drove a 94 miata for a year or so as well as a couple 05 STIs. When I actually started driving cars hard I moved the seat forward and kept my elbows bent all the time. It was a lot easier to fit and drive in a "spirited" manner. I use to think I would not fit in lots of small cars, but I learned I could if I stayed away from the big pimpin' reclined seat, straight arm the steering wheel posture.

[2KWIK4U]

Don't you guys think that if you really aren't going to fit, modifications could be made? I'm 6'0" even and weigh about 180. I like to sit low in cars, but have never met a car I wasn't comfortable in.

Maybe even just a modifying the seat cushion to remove foam? That could give you an inch right there. Or, as I'm going to be doing with my Camaro seat brackets, cutting and re welding them to lower them 1.5".

I'm sure it'll all work out in the end. FFR isn't going to make a car that only a sub 6'0 person could fit into.

Steve

I'm sure that FFR will take it into consideration but I see what your saying about modifying to make work too. I moved a foot box forward in my friends FFR roadster about 2" ,he is 6'4", and it took a lot of redesign to fit the panels and parts again for that simple change. I think the point I am trying to make is, it is easier to bring things closer to you if you fit a given space than it is to make the space itself bigger, especially on a world selling car.

[JRL]

Here's your answer Wookies

http://www.jennycraig.com/?dfa=1

[2KWIK4U]

Here's your answer Wookies

http://www.jennycraig.com/?dfa=1

OUCH! now that hurt.:) Does jenny have a fix for height too?

[JRL]

OUCH! now that hurt.:) Does jenny have a fix for height too?

Got ya covered

http://www.elevatorshoes.com/Index.asp

[olpro]

In the industry, the criteria for a driver’s seating is determined by different conditions than for a passenger. The driver needs to reach controls, see gauges, see outside the vehicle by direct and indirect vision (mirrors) – all while functioning as an operator under dynamic conditions. The requirements for a passenger are much less demanding.
Typically, the driver’s seat slides fore & aft (the track usually drops toward the rear to help compensate for the taller driver’s generally longer torso). Still, height adjustment is usually necessary for best fit, as is a telescoping and pivoting steering wheel.
The problem with sitting the driver over the fuel tank is that, on the production vehicle this is a PASSENGER seat – and no allowances are made for a seat track, etc. This points out one more reason to reconsider using the production Subaru fuel tank which not only raises the driver a lot, it restricts a lot of the flexibility in packaging different size drivers.

[JRL]

On that note I can't understand the resistance of some to put the tank up front. I read some where on this forum about handling issues as the tank emptied - WTF - that is crazy. I have owned (and raced a few) at least 20 cars with front tanks and never noticed a significant drop off in handling as the fuel was used.

[BrandonDrums]

On that note I can't understand the resistance of some to put the tank up front. I read some where on this forum about handling issues as the tank emptied - WTF - that is crazy. I have owned (and raced a few) at least 20 cars with front tanks and never noticed a significant drop off in handling as the fuel was used.

Exactly! A WRX has a rear-mounted tank, so with it empty you'd expect it to understeer more. Somehow it doesn't, I notice 0 difference (granted the car is nearly 1500 lbs heavier) bust still.

How about the 65 roadster with the rear-mounted tank, any difference in handling in that 2200 lb car from full to empty?

Even if the car were to be rear-engined, I don't think the tank would make that much of a difference being mounted up front than in the middle on handling. It's probably more of a crash-safety thing even though sitting on a liquid bomb seems worse than having it away from you.

[olpro]

The safety argument may be the best reason for a custom tank between the seat back and engine. A front tank is very vulnerable unless there is some significant (and carefully engineered) structure up there.
If a mid-car tank gets smashed to the point of rupture, the occupants are already in big trouble.

[Steve91T]

I think the difference is the low weight of this car. A front mounted tank would cause a much larger percentage of transfered weight from full to empty than other cars out there.

If it's going to be a custom fuel cell, then why not make it like the MR2. It was a long skinny tank was in the center of the car, between the two seats, and ran lengthwise. It was a perfect place for a fuel tank.

Steve

[JRL]

If the 818 meets the target weight of 1800 #'s (which I doubt) and fuel tank holds 16 gallons you are talking about 5% of the total weight.

[crackedcornish]

Exactly! A WRX has a rear-mounted tank, so with it empty you'd expect it to understeer more. Somehow it doesn't, I notice 0 difference (granted the car is nearly 1500 lbs heavier) bust still.

How about the 65 roadster with the rear-mounted tank, any difference in handling in that 2200 lb car from full to empty?

Even if the car were to be rear-engined, I don't think the tank would make that much of a difference being mounted up front than in the middle on handling. It's probably more of a crash-safety thing even though sitting on a liquid bomb seems worse than having it away from you.

the fuel tank is going to be IN the passenger compartment if it's still going to be placed under the seats!...take a look at this pic that shows an 818 chassis, and tell me there is room under that floor for a fuel tank

here's a pic and caption from a post by Dave
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2168-2011-Factory-Five-Open-House-Sneak-Peek
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/showevent/openhouse/2011/images/1.jpg
Hmm...Looks like an 818 chassis to me...see the real thing this weekend.

[kach22i]

Re-reading some of the old requirements, caught this:


The Next Factory Five - Project 818
All-New "World Platform" Factory Five Design
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew.html

In all likelihood the flat 6 boxer will not be part of our plan because any amount of extra space will be incorporated into the cockpit. 2-4 Inches may not seem like much but in terms of leg room it can be all the difference.


Extra room for more engine? They say not, but the lady protests too much?

I think the whole gas tank location explanation was a lark all along, I never bought into it with all due respect. I thought the comment of "a car we would not be afraid to drive in traffic" was the real reason for Boxster/Cayman proportions. Funny, but I cannot seem to be able to find that comment/quote at the moment.

Not to put more fuel on a fire, found this as well:
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/f5faq/

Q: Can I change the driver position?
A: You can, but we may move it back. It probably won't help your chances at winning, either.

[Someday I Suppose]

Just curious where the whole tank under the seat thing came from in the first place??? I don't think I ever saw Jim or Dave post that.

-Scott

[Steve91T]

Just curious where the whole tank under the seat thing came from in the first place??? I don't think I ever saw Jim or Dave post that.

-Scott

I think because that's the stock tank location (I think), and from the looks of the frame, possibly the only place for it.

[thebeerbaron]

Just curious where the whole tank under the seat thing came from in the first place??? I don't think I ever saw Jim or Dave post that.

-Scott

It was a quote from Dave over on the GRM forum. I had to dig to find it, but I have the quote and (I think) a link in one of my old posts. Don't have time to find it now, but if you search my old posts you may find it.

[VTX]

It was a quote from Dave over on the GRM forum. I had to dig to find it, but I have the quote and (I think) a link in one of my old posts. Don't have time to find it now, but if you search my old posts you may find it.

I clearly remember the comment as well, but haven't had time to dig it up.

[bromikl]

If it's going to be a custom fuel cell, then why not make it like the MR2. It was a long skinny tank was in the center of the car, between the two seats, and ran lengthwise. It was a perfect place for a fuel tank.

Steve



+1.

[kach22i]

Allowance for middle spine tank if sized right could accommodate a row of lead-acid car batteries for an electric version.

[bromikl]

Allowance for middle spine tank if sized right could accommodate a row of lead-acid car batteries for an electric version.

You are right in pointing out that batteries could replace the tank, though most electrics built today use newer, lighter technology. Lead-acid batteries are HEAVY. The only reason for using them is that they are also cheap.

[Someday I Suppose]

Beer, just searched for a bit, but didn't turn it up, not saying I don't believe you ;-) just didn't find it. I think the important thing, and to some of your posts is not take anything as written in ink until the thing is done. From a profitability standpoint, using something already available to Factory Five would make the most sense to me.

-Scott

[thebeerbaron]

Beer, just searched for a bit, but didn't turn it up, not saying I don't believe you ;-) just didn't find it. I think the important thing, and to some of your posts is not take anything as written in ink until the thing is done. From a profitability standpoint, using something already available to Factory Five would make the most sense to me.

-Scott

Yeah, I didn't find it either, and in glossing over the first 20 or so pages of the GRM thread, it didn't jump out at me either. It's around here somewhere, I swear. I'll look again when I have more time.

I'm not a fan of the fuel tank location in the template and my design entry did not use the driver height suggested by the template. My post was simply to provide the source of the "rumor".

The things I see as set in stone are the price and weight points. And the engine location. Other than that, I think I'm pretty open minded. Maybe...

[Dave Smith]

The fuel tank is a HUGE issue. Jim may go several ways on this, but the chassis was used to plan positioning the stock tank. With the target price we have to look at using as much as possible from the subie. Still, that is not finalized and seating position, cockpit space, center of gravity, etc are all affected hugely by this. I know Jim will solve the puzzle, but its one of very few puzzles he hasnt completely closed on.

[thebeerbaron]

Aw, come on Dave, how hard can it be? You go to the grocery store, buy a gallon of water, pour it in the radiator, fill the jug with gas, stick the fuel hose in it, and go. Cheap, safe, effective :)

[Oppenheimer]

I’m a 6’1” 215 lb weight lifter who drives a Miata. I never understood those who say certain cars are too small.

I'm 6' even, and just 180 lbs, and if the roof of an rx-8 were 6 inches higher, I still wouldn't have enough headroom to drive it safely. Same deal with the Miata I sat in. Even with SUV's, I've had to test sit a lot before I found ones I can fit in. Legroom is never a problem for me, its headroom. There are only a handfull of cars I've sat in where I'm not looking down at the rearview mirror. Most cars the mirror is a huge blindspot in the windshield.

People are just proportioned differently. There are a lot of cars I wish I could drive, but can't.

[Steve91T]

I'm 6' even, and just 180 lbs, and if the roof of an rx-8 were 6 inches higher, I still wouldn't have enough headroom to drive it safely. Same deal with the Miata I sat in. Even with SUV's, I've had to test sit a lot before I found ones I can fit in. Legroom is never a problem for me, its headroom. There are only a handfull of cars I've sat in where I'm not looking down at the rearview mirror. Most cars the mirror is a huge blindspot in the windshield.

People are just proportioned differently. There are a lot of cars I wish I could drive, but can't.

Wow, I'm the same height and weight as you, but I fit in just about everything. I guess you have shorter legs and a longer torso.

Everybody is different, but it'll all work out in the end. Not everybody is going to fit into this car.

[armstrom]

I think keeping the fuel tank under the seat is a case of cutting of your nose to spite your face. I just don't see a way to put the stock fuel tank under the stock seat and not look like a giant riding around in a kid's car.
Who wants to look like this driving around in your sexy new sports car? :)
http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/8aRX-08KmUw/0.jpg

If you must keep the tank under the seat, then you will have to go with ultra-low profile racing seats with no slider brackets. You would have to figure at LEAST $150 a seat for the cheapest Chinese racing seat knock-offs. I know for sure $300 can buy one hell of a fuel cell :) I would think the economical solution would be to use a reasonably priced COTS fuel cell (eaily had for ~$100) and retain the use of stock seats. There should be "plenty" of space above the transmission or in the "frunk" area. I don't think anyone is expecting to have a spare tire or trunk in this thing so both areas should be free to do what you will.

I guess the best of both worlds would be if the stock fuel tank could fit above the transmission, but I'm guessing there isn't quite enough space for that. Just my $0.02...
-Matt

[willy]

Don't know why everybody has a problem with fitting, I have a 73 stingray and am 6' 1" and 280lbs and have no problem in my vette, maybe just big boned Ha Ha

[D2W]

I agree that it would be better to buy a fuel tank that would fit somewhere besides under the seats, and reuse the stock seats for cost benefits. It would be easy to upgrade to a better seat. Sitting on top of the tank makes the whole car taller (think vw bug vs cayman), and is forever.

[Niburu]

I agree that it would be better to buy a fuel tank that would fit somewhere besides under the seats, and reuse the stock seats for cost benefits. It would be easy to upgrade to a better seat. Sitting on top of the tank makes the whole car taller (think vw bug vs cayman), and is forever.

I concur.
I would think the vendors for FFR's previous cars might have some input on this as well.
And if we had to go with a fuel cell from the get go, that makes creating a track car or Spec challenge series car that much easier.

[Steve91T]

I still vote in the center of the car, lengthwise. That's the perfect spot for it and I'm sure it would be fairly easy to tweak the frame design to accommodate it, especially since there's no tranny to worry about.

Steve

[PhyrraM]

Dave has stated he is leveraging his vendors to the hilt for this car. If it can be done, I'm sure it will be done.

Until then....keep in mind $9,900 doesn't buy much in this economy, and the buyer is always free to modify from the basic kit.



I, personally, don't think this will ship with the tank under the seat.

[BrandonDrums]

Dave has stated he is leveraging his vendors to the hilt for this car. If it can be done, I'm sure it will be done.

Until then....keep in mind $9,900 doesn't buy much in this economy, and the buyer is always free to modify from the basic kit.



I, personally, don't think this will ship with the tank under the seat.

I agree. The target price is ambitious, perhaps the target price is a good motivator to be conscience of costs but sometimes it pays to do things right rather than cut corners.

It doesn't have to be a fuel cell per-se, but the stock tank isn't shaped well for a MR application in this case. I personally would make very little consideration to use it if I had to sit on it (given that there's an aftermarket alternative)

However, sitting just a little higher might make it a bit easier as a daily driver but only if there's a good roof.

[Ks2]

when you sit in the back seat of a subaru you are sitting practically on the fuel tank anyway (though it is slightly to the rear) and the height from the floor to the bottom of the seat is close, difficult part is putting front seats where the rear one goes (ie on top of a fuel tank) and still having it somewhat adjustable, re-using the stock seats may be out but a really low profile aftermarket one might do the trick. also the stock tank is in roughly the same position as it would be in the front engined subaru and it looks to me like placing the tank in the front means having a significantly smaller tank



seems like it would be easier to work around the placement of the tank since placing the tank somewhere else would require alot of redesign work or extra cost, if i was paying 25-30k for this kit, then yes this would be a huge deal but for the low cost of the kit i can live with slightly higher seat position and a stock tank

all in all, the reason you buy a kit car is to build it yourself, perhaps with the race spec option (which there should be) there could be a dedicated fuel cell in the front, but for the standard street one the larger and cheaper stock fuel tank would be fine in my opinion

[BrandonDrums]

Well, for 25-30k the argument isn't about the fuel tank, it's weather you should buy the GTM instead.

I'm sure Jim will work it out but the subaru tank is tall and has a nice big dip in the middle cutting capacity for a driveshaft the 818 simply won't have. If the subaru tank wasn't shaped the way it is, putting the tank under the seats wouldn't be an issue because it wouldn't be so tall that it would make the configuration awkward.

In our 818 scenario though, pitting this car up against a lotus with a seating position 8-10 inches higher looks real strange.

[mxmike27]

What about utilizing the frame as the fuel tank? I've built a couple of custom bikes (no, not Harleys) and have put fluids in the frame and swingarms. Eric Buel did it on his bikes. I know a car needs a much larger capacity but there's alot more frame to work with and a sump could be built in at the pick-up point.
Mike

[Steve91T]

What about utilizing the frame as the fuel tank? I've built a couple of custom bikes (no, not Harleys) and have put fluids in the frame and swingarms. Eric Buel did it on his bikes. I know a car needs a much larger capacity but there's alot more frame to work with and a sump could be built in at the pick-up point.
Mike

I have a feeling that would cost more to make work than the cost of a fuel cell. Plus, I don't think it's very safe to have fuel inside the frame.

It's a great idea with motorcycles. Even my dirtbike has the oil tank built into the frame.

[JRL]

What about utilizing the frame as the fuel tank? I've built a couple of custom bikes (no, not Harleys) and have put fluids in the frame and swingarms. Eric Buel did it on his bikes. I know a car needs a much larger capacity but there's alot more frame to work with and a sump could be built in at the pick-up point.
Mike

Whoa that would cost more than the target and would likely be a total failure.

Porsche filled some of their race chassis with inert gas so they could monitor structural integrity but fuel - yikes.

Back in the day some of the NASCAR guys were caught cheating by putting fuel in the roll-cage and if I remember correctly when Fireball Roberts died in a fire speculation was that the fire was fueled by extra gas in the roll-cage.

[Benji]

Whoa that would cost more than the target and would likely be a total failure.

Porsche filled some of their race chassis with inert gas so they could monitor structural integrity but fuel - yikes.

Back in the day some of the NASCAR guys were caught cheating by putting fuel in the roll-cage and if I remember correctly when Fireball Roberts died in a fire speculation was that the fire was fueled by extra gas in the roll-cage.

Failure maybe but not for the reasons you are implying, like MXMike said, this has been done on bikes MANY times, Buell's had fuel in the frame spars and oil in the swing arm, nothing any more dangerous about doing that if done right.


Well, for 25-30k the argument isn't about the fuel tank, it's weather you should buy the GTM instead.

Not for 25-30k you won't be getting a GTM.

[JRL]

Failure maybe but not for the reasons you are implying, like MXMike said, this has been done on bikes MANY times, Buell's had fuel in the frame spars and oil in the swing arm, nothing any more dangerous about doing that if done right.



Not for 25-30k you won't be getting a GTM.

Benji you really don't get it do you?

[kach22i]

I just thought of yet another reason for a spine style hump down the long axis. If place and designed right it might accommodate a driveshaft for an AWD option.

You would also think that it would add strength, similar to how a double Y-frame (Delorean) works.

[Benji]

I'm pretty certain I do but I'm always open to the idea I may have missed something. Feel free to try and enlighten me ;)

[Benji]

I just thought of yet another reason for a spine style hump down the long axis. If place and designed right it might accommodate a driveshaft for an AWD option.

You would also think that it would add strength, similar to how a double Y-frame (Delorean) works.

With what gearbox/transaxle?

[Niburu]

Hopefully with the chassis reveal this weekend they'll the suspension and drivetrain mounted to it.
Then we could give much better thought out suggestions as to where to put it.
Perhaps a couple of small fuel cells would work feeding to a central pump tank?

[JRL]

I'm pretty certain I do but I'm always open to the idea I may have missed something. Feel free to try and enlighten me ;)

First do you think each piece of the chassis structure is open to each other. In other words due you realize each piece is welded to the FACE of each other - there is no opening!

How much fuel do you think the car will need to carry?

Do you know the conversion factor for a gallon of gasoline to cubic inches?

Do you know the cross sectional area of 2" square tube (I'm guessing 2" will be used but it could be smaller)?

Do you know how many feet of tube (assuming it is connected in a manner that allows fluid to pass freely from one to another which is a huge leap) it would take to hold even a gallon of gasoline?

Do you know the total linear footage of tubing in the proposed chassis released by FF?

[Benji]

First do you think each piece of the chassis structure is open to each other. In other words due you realize each piece is welded to the FACE of each other - there is no opening!

How much fuel do you think the car will need to carry?

Do you know the conversion factor for a gallon of gasoline to cubic inches?

Do you know the cross sectional area of 2" square tube (I'm guessing 2" will be used but it could be smaller)?

Do you know how many feet of tube (assuming it is connected in a manner that allows fluid to pass freely from one to another which is a huge leap) it would take to hold even a gallon of gasoline?

Do you know the total linear footage of tubing in the proposed chassis released by FF?

Ah! In which case............




































......Do you know you totally missed the point of what I was saying? :D

[JRL]

Yeah I evidently did and you obviously missed my point. You rambled on about Buell and said something about me missing the point on why that idea (fuel in the frame) had zero merit. My point was COST - it can't be done without spending HUGE amounts of money. Even if cost were not factored in it would take over 100 feet of tubing to hold 16 gallons. My additional comments (Porsche & NASCAR) were simply for information and thought some might not be aware of what had been done in the past.

I'm still waiting for your answers to my questions. How much fuel? Cross sectional area of structural tubing etc.

By the way what was your point?

[Niburu]

I'm not sure what the point was either but can we drop the whole fuel in the frame thing?
It would require a whole frame redesign, so lets not give Jim a heart attack.
Also so they can have the car done by SEMA in November.

[Ks2]

I just thought of yet another reason for a spine style hump down the long axis. If place and designed right it might accommodate a driveshaft for an AWD option.

You would also think that it would add strength, similar to how a double Y-frame (Delorean) works.

the only way to make the AWD drive work in this engine configuration is either to turn the motor around and have 1 forward gear and 5-6 reverse gears or somehow reverse engineer (pun intended!) the transmission (which is how the delorean is setup), or the more 'do-able' scenario involves making a geared box that the rear out put of the transmission goes into and that feeds out to another drive shaft (in a 180 degree sort of fashion...) or just find a porshe or similar transmission, then custom fit it to the subaru motor and edit the frame so it will fit in this car (i know this same idea has been beat to death in the GTM forum)

i do agree in the strength adding down the center and on the delorean note the Y shaped fuel compartment was brilliant back then however money spent strengthening and reinforcing the chassis is money that gets cut from something else to meet the cost target

[Benji]

Yeah I evidently did and you obviously missed my point. You rambled on about Buell and said something about me missing the point on why that idiotic idea (fuel in the frame) had zero merit. My point was COST - it can't be done without spending HUGE amounts of money. Even if cost were not factored in it would take over 100 feet of tubing to hold 16 gallons. My additional comments (Porsche & NASCAR) were simply for information and thought some might not be aware of what had been done in the past.

I'm still waiting for your answers to my questions. How much fuel? Cross sectional area of structural tubing etc.

By the way what was your point?

Ahhh bless.

Go read it again and then you can come back and apologise :)


Okay, I'm going to apologise for not reading the trail of our later posts, as I'm partially incorrect in what I originally said but you should show me some courtesy and do the same :)

[Vman7]

The only place I can really think of for the gas tank is behind the seats, but not really sure just how tight that would be. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Gollum]

I'm 6' even, and just 180 lbs, and if the roof of an rx-8 were 6 inches higher, I still wouldn't have enough headroom to drive it safely. Same deal with the Miata I sat in. Even with SUV's, I've had to test sit a lot before I found ones I can fit in. Legroom is never a problem for me, its headroom. There are only a handfull of cars I've sat in where I'm not looking down at the rearview mirror. Most cars the mirror is a huge blindspot in the windshield.

People are just proportioned differently. There are a lot of cars I wish I could drive, but can't.

What kind of driving position are you sitting in? I've found that where people prefer to sit makes MORE difference than their actual size. I'm 6' 185# and I also can fit in just about anything. That being said I hate the new mustangs because the stock v6 and GT seats are restarted as far as fitting into the car. In order to get as close as I want to the pedals my knees hit the steering wheel, even with it adjusted all the way up, and visibility from this point still feels too low. Could I drive it? You bet! But man getting into a GT500 is a whole different story, because the seat fixes everything!

I truly have a hard time imagining you're actually running out of headroom in vehicles, simply because I've met so many people a good bit taller than you that don't have as many issues. You're probably just used to sitting in a high back seat position, and also like to be close to the steering wheel. I've met guys who are 6'3" that drive RX8's and don't have an issue, and I don't care how much proportion changes from person to person, theres no way you actually have a longer torso than these men.

Just a thought ;-)

[kach22i]

the only way to make the AWD drive work in this engine configuration is either to turn the motor around and have 1 forward gear and 5-6 reverse gears ...............
I did not know this, and will take your word for it.

Which leaves me to my next great idea, an electric motor to power the front wheels on take off (hybrid style), running off those archaic led acid batteries running down the spine.

Ignorance is bliss, keeps the ideas flowing. It's for you engineering types to make it work.;)

[JRL]

Ahhh bless.

Go read it again and then you can come back and apologise :)


Okay, I'm going to apologise for not reading the trail of our later posts, as I'm partially incorrect in what I originally said but you should show me some courtesy and do the same :)

Apologize for what - being correct? If it makes you feel better sure - I'm sorry for being correct :-)

[Cooluser23]

Just put the fuel tank between the seats like on a Pontiac Fiero.. Best center of gravity, and allows the seats to be as low as possible in the car, again helping the center of gravity...

If you don't want to do that, just put the gas tank where it is on a Porsche Boxter/Cayman, or a Corvette.

[PhyrraM]

......... just put the gas tank where it is on a Porsche Boxter/Cayman, or a Corvette.

and that is.....?

[Someday I Suppose]

JRL, that post made me think of stock car racing too, it may have been mercury though and not fuel. There are stories of some of the short track guys putting mercury in the frame rails, and after going through tech hit a pump and pump it to the inside to make the car corner better. After the race they could pump it back and tech was none the wiser until they started dumping mercury on the track in bad wrecks.



Whoa that would cost more than the target and would likely be a total failure.

Porsche filled some of their race chassis with inert gas so they could monitor structural integrity but fuel - yikes.

Back in the day some of the NASCAR guys were caught cheating by putting fuel in the roll-cage and if I remember correctly when Fireball Roberts died in a fire speculation was that the fire was fueled by extra gas in the roll-cage.

[JRL]

JRL, that post made me think of stock car racing too, it may have been mercury though and not fuel. There are stories of some of the short track guys putting mercury in the frame rails, and after going through tech hit a pump and pump it to the inside to make the car corner better. After the race they could pump it back and tech was none the wiser until they started dumping mercury on the track in bad wrecks.

Yup the old guys were clever. The fuel in the roll-cage was widely used as was this little trick.

Another Yunick improvisation was getting around the regulations specifying a maximum size for the fuel tank, by using eleven foot (three meter) coils of 2-inch (5-centimeter) diameter tubing for the fuel line to add about 5 gallons (19 liters) to the car's fuel capacity. Once, NASCAR officials came up with a list of nine items for Yunick to fix before the car would be allowed on the track. The suspicious NASCAR officials had removed the tank for inspection. Yunick started the car with no gas tank and said "Better make it ten,"[3] and drove it back to the pits. He used a basketball in the fuel tank which could be inflated when the car's fuel capacity was checked and deflated for the race.

[Benji]

Apologize for what - being correct? If it makes you feel better sure - I'm sorry for being correct :-)

Yes you were correct in what you said after your initial comment and the even funnier thing is, I agreed with you.

There is also some irony in you saying I was 'rambling on about Buells' as well.

[kach22i]

and that is.....?

front................look for fill spout
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Porsche_Cayman_S_cutaway_model.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Porsche_Cayman_S_cutaway_model.jpg

rear....................look for fill spout
http://www.vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1041
http://www.vettemod.com/forum/imagehosting/4484d97adb4f73.jpg

Two different locations, a confusing comment/example to be found in same sentence.

[David Hodgkins]

Guys, please, please maintain respect for one another going forward...

:)

[Ldavis]

I know the contest is over but I couldn't resist to doing some more renders.
Dave could you please please make the car so someone 6'3" with wide shoulders can fix!



http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/devices2/dsg.jpg
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/devices2/lkjl.jpg
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/devices2/124.jpg
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/devices2/2.jpg
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/devices2/6.jpg

[Oppenheimer]

I truly have a hard time imagining you're actually running out of headroom in vehicles, simply because I've met so many people a good bit taller than you that don't have as many issues. You're probably just used to sitting in a high back seat position, and also like to be close to the steering wheel. I've met guys who are 6'3" that drive RX8's and don't have an issue, and I don't care how much proportion changes from person to person, theres no way you actually have a longer torso than these men.

Just a thought ;-)

I have friends that are over 6' 5", if I sit next to them on a bench, I'm just slightly taller than they are (their inseam ~36", mine ~31" - plus I think I am sitting on more 'padding' than they are).

I don't recline the seat a lot, but that's just so I can still reach the steering wheel. I don't sit too close, or with arms too bent.

[jcj007]

Time to finally join this forum after joining the other one and post my name is Jeremy from Britain (hence the licence plate and the reason the steering wheel is on the wrong side.) and I finally posted my own ideas shortly before the deadline last week. I have skimmed through the forums and the competition is tough, loads of great designs how they'll choose is beyond me, there are numerous ones they could pick for all sorts of reasons.

My strategy was simple; be bold, be different and I hope my design does this. Factory Five needs a memorable car which is distinctly their own.

My design is called "The F5" (a name I have seen others suggest on the forum). The top surface is a different colour and a completely separate surface which is meant to appear to float above the sides there are air ducts either side of front arch and in front of the rear arch, 3 adjustable spoilers in the nose, tail and in the roll hoop, tinted polycarbonate allows you to see the suspension and engine and sweeps around the cockpit. I have made the nose pointy and the rear has a very theatrical exhaust . Lights wraparound and the rear ones are part of another tinted polycarbonate panel.

I have ideas for a detachable hardtop, how it can be built and a full interior design which was not entered into the competition but will no doubt post here at some stage probably after the result.

In my research I learned how to draw a Subaru Boxer engine and actually found a company who do metallic and other finishes of gelcoat which offers some interesting possibilities one of their finishes is granite! Hmmmm..... when I order one of these kit cars someday two tone with granite and metallic blue might be nice?

It's been a long time since I have worked on anything quite like this and thank you to Grassroots Motorsport and Factory Five for making this competition so welcoming and giving us freedom to do almost anything.

Comments are welcome and I hope you like my designs . I give you my version of the F5.

Sideview:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/JCJ007/F5sides.jpg
Topview:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/JCJ007/F5tops.jpg
Front 3/4:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/JCJ007/F5f34s.jpg
Rear 3/4:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/JCJ007/F5r34s.jpg

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Dave Hodgkins comment about respect. These forums have been a brilliant display of imagination and skill but at times deep angst and unnecessary criticism. I enjoyed the competition and don't understand the angst. My design is submitted all we can all do now is sit back and relax.

Goodluck to all I think the only thing we can predict about the winner is it will be a surprise.

[JRL]

Jeremy I love the shape my only hesitation would be the clear / tinted polycarbonate - seems it would be a real hassle to keep it clean - especially the underside.

[Ks2]

Just put the fuel tank between the seats like on a Pontiac Fiero..

i choose life... just kidding those were kind of a fire hazard if i remember correctly

as for mounting the tank in the front, there doesn't appear to be much room in the front, but in the back there is alot of space over the transmission ,this of course puts alot more wieght towards the rear as well as rasing the center of gravity... and i wouldnt want to be rear ended... plus you have less space for cat's and mufflers and whatnot but if having the tank somewhere else is that important...

perhaps two small tanks? one in the front space between the tires and the other in the back?

[Steve91T]

i choose life... just kidding those were kind of a fire hazard if i remember correctly

as for mounting the tank in the front, there doesn't appear to be much room in the front, but in the back there is alot of space over the transmission ,this of course puts alot more wieght towards the rear as well as rasing the center of gravity... and i wouldnt want to be rear ended... plus you have less space for cat's and mufflers and whatnot but if having the tank somewhere else is that important...

perhaps two small tanks? one in the front space between the tires and the other in the back?

Them is fighten words! The Fiero had a fire hazard because of stuffing a V6 in an I4 space. Nothing to do with the tank. I'm, once again, going to talk about the MR2. The 2nd gen MR2, had a 94.5" wheelbase, and used a mid engine, 4 cylinder turbo engine. 200 hp stock. Toyota put the fuel tank in the center of the car, between the two seats, the safest place for a fuel tank. Cars don't explode on impact, unless it's a pinto.

Fiero, MR2, whatever, I have been saying the center tank is the way to go. The center of the frame is wasted space, perfect for a long skinny MR2, tank style, tank.

Anyway, for the 133rd time, I say custom, center, between the two peeps, tank.

Steve

[thebeerbaron]

Anyway, for the 133rd time, I say custom, center, between the two peeps, tank.


From the spy shots I've seen though, there seems to be a major structural member that lands right in that space between the seats. I am not a chassis engineer, but it looks like the type of thing you can't just snip out without the whole thing collapsing on itself. I also wonder if the cockpit will be wide enough to accommodate a tank in that location as well as what I'm assuming will be the stock Subaru seats.

I like the location that the midlana (http://www.midlana.com/) project uses - the small wedge-shaped area behind the seats. Custom job though.

What I really like about this discussion is knowing that Jim wouldn't come within a mile of it for fear of having to deal with mindless know-it-alls and back-seat engineers like me :)

[Steve91T]

From the spy shots I've seen though, there seems to be a major structural member that lands right in that space between the seats. I am not a chassis engineer, but it looks like the type of thing you can't just snip out without the whole thing collapsing on itself. I also wonder if the cockpit will be wide enough to accommodate a tank in that location as well as what I'm assuming will be the stock Subaru seats.

I like the location that the midlana (http://www.midlana.com/) project uses - the small wedge-shaped area behind the seats. Custom job though.

What I really like about this discussion is knowing that Jim wouldn't come within a mile of it for fear of having to deal with mindless know-it-alls and back-seat engineers like me :)

The MR2 (2nd gen) is 66.9" wide. What's the 818? I can't remember. I'm sure the 818 chassis could easily be designed to include a center tank. Like Dave said, they are still trying to find a good place for a tank, which means they are open to modify their design.

[Dave Smith]

Jeremy, Welcome! Keep in mind that the 818 design HAS to be RH/LH drive capable as an export focused car. That doesnt mean we dont think the car will do well in the US, its just that we have to have an export-capable car that costs less to build as US running gear is very expensive outside the US. Great lines and I agree with you the design competition was very very tough. Ive been looking at the final picks from the judges and they are all excellent. The truth is we could throw away the best 50 designs and still have great designs for the car! It is that tough.

[Dave Smith]

The fuel tank and location is not finalized and I've seen Jim's two best ideas and they both provide good space in the cockpit. I think that as impressive as the design concepts have been, Jim and Jespers engineering is equally innovative and impressive, leveraging huge on our relationship with Solidworks and with the experience of designing many many ffr chassis designs in variety of formats... It really shows and you'll see the chassis on Saturday.

[JRL]

The MR2 (2nd gen) is 66.9" wide. What's the 818? I can't remember. I'm sure the 818 chassis could easily be designed to include a center tank. Like Dave said, they are still trying to find a good place for a tank, which means they are open to modify their design.

Steve I think the chassis is already designed. Finding a spot for the tank within the basic parameters is the tough part. A tank roughly 36" x 24" x 4 1/2" would result in almost 17 gallons capacity. I bet Boyd could mass produce them in aluminum within a tight budget.

[newtrix]

How about this as a means of eliminating the doors and making fewer panels to keep cost down. My apologies to Xabier. http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w186/newtrix_photos/1307587551.png I think this would be cool if done well which Solidworks should allow.

[JRL]

How about this as a means of eliminating the doors and making fewer panels to keep cost down. My apologies to Xabier. http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w186/newtrix_photos/1307587551.png I think this would be cool if done well which Solidworks should allow.

What about the steering & wiring etc.

[Oppenheimer]

I think he meant just the body would tilt up like that. The rest of the chassis, steering, etc, would all stay in place.

I'm not sure how it saves anything though. You have this presumably heavy hinge & linkage mechanism, and you still have a 'door' interface, its just at an angle instead of a typical large rectangle door shape. Maybe you get to build the whole front shell as one piece, but is that even feasible? Is the cost & complexity of doors that much of a problem that it requires radical solutions?

[newtrix]

I'll leave that for smarter folks! Just trying to add an idea into the thought stream.

[readymix]

I think he meant just the body would tilt up like that. The rest of the chassis, steering, etc, would all stay in place.

I'm not sure how it saves anything though. You have this presumably heavy hinge & linkage mechanism, and you still have a 'door' interface, its just at an angle instead of a typical large rectangle door shape. Maybe you get to build the whole front shell as one piece, but is that even feasible? Is the cost & complexity of doors that much of a problem that it requires radical solutions?

Doors aren't that complicated really. You cut the shape out of the body that will become the door, and build a small frame to hold it. Two hinges and a latch, with the mechanicals welded or bolted to the frame. Then you skin the inside with something. It doesn't have to be all that complex.

[keys2heaven]

Wny not store the fuel in the humps behind the seats? You know, like a Camel.

[JRL]

Doors aren't that complicated really. You cut the shape out of the body that will become the door, and build a small frame to hold it. Two hinges and a latch, with the mechanicals welded or bolted to the frame. Then you skin the inside with something. It doesn't have to be all that complex.

You are correct - doors are not that complicated - as long as the frame was designed from day one to accommodate doors. If doors were not an integral part of the original design it becomes a bit more problematic.

[readymix]

Wny not store the fuel in the humps behind the seats? You know, like a Camel.

Because it would have to be above the engine, and you'd have 10+ gallons of fuel sloshing around at head level in the center of the car which would play havoc on the predictability of how the car handles.

[keys2heaven]

Because it would have to be above the engine, and you'd have 10+ gallons of fuel sloshing around at head level in the center of the car which would play havoc on the predictability of how the car handles.

Well, why wouldn't custom fuel cells work? Aren't they designed to prevent sloshing of fuel?

[thebeerbaron]

Well, why wouldn't custom fuel cells work? Aren't they designed to prevent sloshing of fuel?

My understanding (possibly faulty) is fuel cells are designed to prevent the explosion of fuel vapors.

[keys2heaven]

My understanding (possibly faulty) is fuel cells are designed to prevent the explosion of fuel vapors.

Yes, but this is what I saw:

From FuelSafe's website: (http://www.fuelsafe.com/white_papers/fuel-cell-facts.html)

•The Cell starts with a bladder (bag tank) which is the core of the system. The bladder is the flexible, extremely strong, fuel container that prevents fuel spillage in the event of an accident. Made from high tensile strength elastomeric components and engineered to withstand the fuel’s chemical attack, the bladder is the first line of defense in a crash.
•Foam Baffling inside the bladder has several functions. While displacing a very small amount of fuel, the Foam prevents sloshing of the fuel. By preventing sloshing the Foam keeps the fuel de-aerated which improves fuel delivery and also insures constant delivery of fuel to the pickup. A secondary benefit the foam affords is its ability to prevent flash back explosions. And finally the foam holds the bladder in shape, important with a flexible bladder.
•The Fill Plate provides the opening to fill the Cell. It usually contains the fittings for the vent, outlet and return. This important component provides no-spill rollover protection while being engineered to integrate with the bladder for the maximum strength and security.
•The final component is the container (can). This part protects the bladder and provides a way to mount the Fuel Cell in the car. Containers have been made from aluminum, steel, carbon fiber, fiberglass or even a cavity in the body structure. Containers are designed to fit the bladder closely and provide maximum capacity.

Of course, this assumes that the design has humps.

[thebeerbaron]

Still up high, which is bad, and above the engine, which is not all that short when you include the intercooler, and a good source of ignition following a leak...

[keys2heaven]

A leaking fuel cell would be a bad thing, but so would a leaking gas tank between two seats.

If it were designed to be attached to the rear body, then aside from a fuel line break or a puncture, the cell should be fine.

[readymix]

You can prevent sloshing all you want, but the weight of the liquid will still most certainly shift during a turn. You can't stop a liquid from self leveling, nor can you stop non solids from being affected by the forces acting upon them. Objects at rest tend to stay at rest, objects in motion stay in motion. If the car, the fuel tank and the fuel are being moved left to right of center of mass in a left turn, and you then turn right, the car and the tank will immediately begin going the opposite direction, the fuel will not.

Here's a test you can perform at home. Get a 5 gallon tupperware container or something of the like, fill it with 4 gallons of water. Now hold it at waist level and run across your back yard from one side to the other side of the yard, and while you are running, constantly go left to right and right to left...like you are dodging cones. Better yet, setup a line of cones and go back and forth around them. You will be fighting the moving liquid in that container pretty hard. Now, do the same thing, but this time, hold the container over your head and while still switching directions constantly, see if you can even keep a hold on that container or if you can remain up on your two feet.

[keys2heaven]

Guess that would depend on where the center of gravity was located. And how much fuel are we talking about? Just wanted to throw out an idea.

I'm not trying to be an arse, but I personally don't like the idea of volatile gasoline separating me and my passenger. Just tell me where it's going to go.

[readymix]

Guess that would depend on where the center of gravity was located. And how much fuel are we talking about? Just wanted to throw out an idea.

I'm not trying to be an arse, but I personally don't like the idea of volatile gasoline separating me and my passenger. Just tell me where it's going to go.

It doesn't matter where the center of gravity is located in this instance. The car is roughly 40-45 inches tall at center. The EJ20 engine with intercooler mounted topmount is approximately 30" tall from bottom of pan to top of IC. So, if the engine was scraping the asphalt, you'd have about 12 inches to play with, and a side to side space of about 36. A 12x24x12 tank will hold about 14 gallons of fuel. At 6 lbs per gallon, that's 84 lbs of weight rested at nearly the highest point on the car. Wherever the center of gravity was on the car is now considerably higher than it was before, especially once you factor in the weight of the fuel cell itself and any fuel pump or tank level sensors you put in there. You are adding approximately 100 lbs of weight, liquid weight, to the top of a car that weighs in at 1800 lbs. It is going to toss the car off balance.

[bromikl]

Center tunnel. Add one if necessary. Low, balanced, minimizes pitch and yaw forces needed to change direction. Well protected - if the tunnel in a car is damaged in an accident, the passengers are already dead. It's a viable and proven location. Now can we move on?

[JRL]

Open House can't get here soon enough as conversation and ideas have nearly reached the bottom. The 818 will be what it is.

[kach22i]

The car is roughly 40-45 inches tall at center.
Not to nit pick, but I scale out 44" to top of roll bar taking into account tire deflation/deformation for weight and tire contact patch. I drew my windshield(s) at the same height for safety.

If you put a tara roof or coupe roof you will gain almost 4 inches (48" total) because most roofs now have an arc in them, plus the 6'-5" guys wearing an helmet don't have to bump their head on the underside of the roof. Also keep in mind, even a taga may have thickness for roof frame, insulation and headliner.


Center tunnel. Add one if necessary. Low, balanced, minimizes pitch and yaw forces needed to change direction. Well protected - if the tunnel in a car is damaged in an accident, the passengers are already dead. It's a viable and proven location. Now can we move on?

This is sounding better all the time. Of course I don't know exactly how wide that cockpit is, nor am I an expert on the center brace.

Maybe the center triangular rollbar brace can go through the fuel tank or go around to be part of the tank shell?

[Steve91T]

Guess that would depend on where the center of gravity was located. And how much fuel are we talking about? Just wanted to throw out an idea.

I'm not trying to be an arse, but I personally don't like the idea of volatile gasoline separating me and my passenger. Just tell me where it's going to go.

Get over being scared of a center tank.

[Dave Smith]

I am pretty sure Jim s going to put a fuel tank or cell in the car. It will likely be under the seats as in the subie, but narrower, maybe stock tanks, still playing with options. Of course we could save a ton of money and space if we didnt put a fuel tank in the car. Cant wait to show you guys the chassis.

[riptide motorsport]

OOHHH...Anticipation, ,,,,I can't handle it!!

[unclebigbad]

And I cain't wait to see it.

[jcj007]

Thank you Dave for your kind words and just to clarify the dashboard is symmetrical so engineering it for the Americas/Europe/Asia/Russia or Britain/Australia/Japan shouldn't be a problem in fact the dashboard consists of my old favourite, 3 chrome bullet shaped Motorbike headlamps with dials inside. I think I said that to introduce myself as coming from Britain mind you I am half English half American anyway.

JRL to answer the question about the tinted polycarbonate which would most likely be drape formed or Vac formed to shape the sections. They would be fully removable for cleaning an under tray would reduce dirt and the tinting reduces the visual impact of dirt also. The engine cover is not without precedence featuring on many a supercar, the front one is novel to this design. I felt it was a good idea to show off the Factory Five engineering under the skin because so much hard work has gone into it and this car. Cars like this are meant to be glorious automotive toys in this case it is much more it is an ambassador for Factory Five as a brand worldwide.

I also liked the idea of making the rear lighting panel see through which could be a beautiful feature. I once saw on a Ferrari F50 I was following and the suspension was mesmerising, moving back and forth then I realised I was rather close in my humble Peugeot 406 and hit the brakes very hard avoiding the rear of the F50 by a few inches. Phew!

Anyway I think I will get to posting some interior sketches I have gone for a very simple no frills approach appropriate for LHD or RHD.

This competition has got me on tenterhooks win or lose I can't wait to see more about this project and I feel my spark of creativity may be back so I can take something positive away from all this.

[readymix]

Not to nit pick, but I scale out 44" to top of roll bar taking into account tire deflation/deformation for weight and tire contact patch. I drew my windshield(s) at the same height for safety.

If you put a tara roof or coupe roof you will gain almost 4 inches (48" total) because most roofs now have an arc in them, plus the 6'-5" guys wearing an helmet don't have to bump their head on the underside of the roof. Also keep in mind, even a taga may have thickness for roof frame, insulation and headliner.





What's your point? We're talking about gas tank placement above the engine with regards to engine height and car height. Are you suggesting that putting the gas tank even higher on the car by using raised panels is a good idea? Are you suggesting that a targa top giving you an extra 4 inches of headroom has some bearing on the gas tank placement. Even if someone created a 2 foot tall bubble enclosure top making the car 68" tall, it would still be stupid to put the gas tank on the top of the car.

[JRL]

What's your point? We're talking about gas tank placement above the engine with regards to engine height and car height. Are you suggesting that putting the gas tank even higher on the car by using raised panels is a good idea? Are you suggesting that a targa top giving you an extra 4 inches of headroom has some bearing on the gas tank placement. Even if someone created a 2 foot tall bubble enclosure top making the car 68" tall, it would still be stupid to put the gas tank on the top of the car.

I think he is talking about under the seat........................but I could be wrong.

[readymix]

I think he is talking about under the seat........................but I could be wrong.

It was posted as a response to me saying the car is roughtly 40-45 inches tall. But that was a base measurement reference that I was giving with regards to engine height and gastank placement above said engine.

[keys2heaven]

Appreciate the stupid comment. I threw out an idea, and it was a bad one. For that I apologize. Maybe I have thin skin, but you guys don't have to be so ruthless when it comes to pointing out something that doesn't work. I'll chalk it up to the fact that everyone is just excited to see the winning design on Saturday.

[readymix]

Not trying to be ruthless, I'm just thorough.

[Niburu]

Anyone know if it's just the chassis fram they're showing?
Or do we get to see the drivetain and suspension mounted on it too?

[riptide motorsport]

Is thorough a synonym for tactless?

[Brian Z]

The gas tank is above the engine in the Hot Rod. It is right behind the seats in the trunk area. It sits fairly high and it is pretty close to being in the same spot as where Keys2heaven suggested. I think it is a pretty good idea. Not the best for a low center of gravity, but it works in the 33'.

Brian @ FFR

[readymix]

Is thorough a synonym for tactless?

It can be I suppose :P

[readymix]

The gas tank is above the engine in the Hot Rod. It is right behind the seats in the trunk area. It sits fairly high and it is pretty close to being in the same spot as where Keys2heaven suggested. I think it is a pretty good idea. Not the best for a low center of gravity, but it works in the 33'.

Brian @ FFR

It works in the 33 because it isn't mounted entirely above the engine. It may break the top plane of the engine, but it doesn't rest directly above the engine. It is mounted behind the seats, probably in line with the engine. What K2H suggested was picture where the engine is in the 818, behind the driver, now, directly above the engine put a gas tank. Like you picked up the gas tank and placed it directly on top of the engine. It works in the 33 because there isn't an engine mounted directly underneath it.

I'm starting to think that the "between the passengers" idea isn't a bad idea.

[JRL]

Nice to see we have a resident expert with equal amounts of engineering expertise and tact.

[Niburu]

I'm starting to think that the "between the passengers" idea isn't a bad idea.

maybe even just an option, I'd be willing to foot several extra hundred dollars for a fuel cell there, with possibly a small 1 or 2 gallon reserve cell up front

[readymix]

Nice to see we have a resident expert with equal amounts of engineering expertise and tact.

Oh boy. Maybe you guys do need thicker skin. I figured with car guys we'd be able to deal with discussions like this. But apparently not. Rainbows and unicorns for everyone.

And I'm not an engineer, nor do I claim to be one. But basic observed physical interactions with objects in nature tells me that mounting 100 lbs of liquid in a box at the highest point in a dynamicly moving object is going to throw its balance off. It doesn't require you to be an engineer to look at the pictures of the '33 car and know that the gas tank isn't mounted entirely above the engine. If logical responses to your comments make you all butthurt, simply say so. And we can make this forum a backpatting paradise where all your ideas are entirely valid and feasible, even if they violate basic physics and balance.

I think we should make the gas tank hold 20 gallons, and then we should mount it securely to the top of a 6 foot pole that protrudes straight up from the front of the car, that way it doesn't interfere with anything inside the car. AND if you get in an accident, the fuel tank will likely fly off the car which would keep it from getting fuel on you, and would have the added benefit of removing the fuel source from the car so the engine will stop. There. Don't everyone trip over yourselves as you are rushing in to shower me with praise for my great idea.

[PhyrraM]

Anyone know if it's just the chassis fram they're showing?
Or do we get to see the drivetain and suspension mounted on it too?

The spy shots from another thread show a chassis with wheels under a tarp in the main showroom next to the GTM chassis. FFRs comment was something like "I wonder what is under the tarp?"

[kach22i]

What's your point?

That when you said:


The car is roughly 40-45 inches tall at center.

EDIT: Insult to other member removed by mod.

At this point if everyone does not know how tall the car is, you should withdraw yourself from the keyboard and spare yourself from further embarrassment.

Prediction; The gas tank will be where they put it.

[thebeerbaron]

I think we should make the gas tank hold 20 gallons, and then we should mount it securely to the top of a 6 foot pole that protrudes straight up from the front of the car, that way it doesn't interfere with anything inside the car. AND if you get in an accident, the fuel tank will likely fly off the car which would keep it from getting fuel on you, and would have the added benefit of removing the fuel source from the car so the engine will stop. There. Don't everyone trip over yourselves as you are rushing in to shower me with praise for my great idea.

That will never work, I'm 8'4 and 350lbs and I need to fit in this car. Your fuel tank will interfere with the power moon roof I need to make this car a daily driver. Make it taller and don't interfere with my cup holders! :)



Too many cooks spoil the broth, but too many "experts" are just freaking annoying (said of myself as much as anyone). Wonder when it will end?

[VTX]

I agree with thebeerbaron. In fact, I think they should just make it a single extra wide seat in the middle. That way they don't have to worry about right or left hand drive and the fat a**es can fit ;)

And who needs a gas tank. I think they should put a wind mill on it, so the car going can create wind needed to make the car go.

[readymix]

That when you said:



EDIT: Quoted insult remove by mod.

At this point if everyone does not know how tall the car is, you should withdraw yourself from the keyboard and spare yourself from further embarrassment.

Prediction; The gas tank will be where they put it.

So, wait. I said it was roughly 40-45 inches tall, and you "corrected" me by saying it was 44", which falls into my range of 40-45 inches. Not everyone here is here for or participated in the design competition. So yeah, I don't know the exact measurement. I looked at someone's drawing that had a low resolution view of the grid and spacing template behind it and did some rough math to figure out the approximate height of the car. Apparently making a mathematical guess at a number and giving a range based on that math that encompasses the actual height of the drawing means I have my head up my ***.

Now, nitpicking a rough estimate of the height of a theoretical car that nobody has actually seen, and pulling that rough estimate out of the context of what I was actually saying with regards to placing a 12" tall 100 lb gas tank atop a 33"+ tall engine in a car that is roughly 40-45" (or 44" exactly for those of us that like to nitpick and don't bother reading what is actually being said) tall...EDIT: insult removed by mod.

[readymix]

I agree with thebeerbaron. In fact, I think they should just make it a single extra wide seat in the middle. That way they don't have to worry about right or left hand drive and the fat a**es can fit ;)

And who needs a gas tank. I think they should put a wind mill on it, so the car going can create wind needed to make the car go.

How about moving it with wind like on one of those air powered pontoon boats. Just a giant propeller on the back?

[readymix]

Prediction; The gas tank will be where they put it.

You need to be more exact. That isn't exact enough.

[kyle stewart]

I am pretty sure Jim s going to put a fuel tank or cell in the car. It will likely be under the seats as in the subie, but narrower, maybe stock tanks, still playing with options. Of course we could save a ton of money and space if we didnt put a fuel tank in the car. Cant wait to show you guys the chassis.

See.....Dave says there might not be a fuel tank in the car. It will probably be on the 8' pole above the car. :)

[Niburu]

nuh-uh, it'll be mounted to one of those little Harbour Freight trailers you see Miata's using to hual tires

[Exidous]

<3 readymix!


Really :-)

Go MN!

[Someday I Suppose]

Too many experts for sure, as far as I know Jim is the expert on this car, then there is of course and Dave, and then there is that Brian Z guy from Factory Five who suggested that the tank in the 33 is above the engine, I am pretty sure that is the same Brian Z standing across from Jim in the latest frame pic, the same Brian who welded the frame on my roadster and on that 818 frame. Maybe he isn't an expert, but my take is he knows more about the continued discussion on the car and potential placement of the tank then those of us speculating.

_Scott

[readymix]

Too many experts for sure, as far as I know Jim is the expert on this car, then there is of course and Dave, and then there is that Brian Z guy from Factory Five who suggested that the tank in the 33 is above the engine, I am pretty sure that is the same Brian Z standing across from Jim in the latest frame pic, the same Brian who welded the frame on my roadster and on that 818 frame. Maybe he isn't an expert, but my take is he knows more about the continued discussion on the car and potential placement of the tank then those of us speculating.

_Scott

I know, I'm beating a dead horse. And people are still going to accuse me of having a GED in Engineering for demonstrating common sense. But whatever, I am bored today and work is slow, so I'll bite...
2267
In the picture above, I have roughly outlined where the engine is. I'm sure kach22i will come in and tell me that I'm off by a few millimeters based on tire inflation or some other such nonsense, but whatever. The green line represents a flat line flush with the top of the engine. It goes the length of the car so you can see what parts of the car are located entirely above the engine. The blue box where it says "Remember, this is where people go" is where people sit, there can't be a gas tank located in that area. I could have chosen a pic of the '33 where the top was off, but I figured we can all at least agree that there isn't a gas tank located in the head area of the passenger compartment.

With that said. And this invitation is for anyone reading this, including FFR engineers and owners (Hi Dave :)) please point out to me, on the drawing where the gas tank is located ENTIRELY above the engine. Maybe there is a secret, inch thin area built into the fiberglass body panels that houses fuel, I don't know. Maybe it's bigger than an inch, but I'll let kach22i chime in on that since he's the expert on precision measurements gleaned from JPG images and photographs.

[readymix]

EDIT: Beligerant post removed by mod, and infraction given.

[David Hodgkins]

Sorry, but the beligerance and insults CANNOT CONTINUE.

Once again, I'll plead for respect. Barring that, the infractions will have to continue, which, believe me, is NOT the action we want to take.

We're not asking for "rainbows and unicorns" here. Just the ability to carry on a respectful conversation, even in instances where you have a difference of opinion. As early users of this forum, you get to set the tone for what the general atmosphere is here. But by instulting each other, you are setting a tone in which others will not post because they do not want to get "jumped on". I have personally received PM's stating such, and this goes against our stated charter of the forum.

If you feel that hurling zingers at each other is the only way to communicate, there are tons of other boards to do that on. OK maybe not 818 boards, but you get the idea. This forum is founded of the philosophy of community. That means caring about, and respecting one another. That is our charter. We simply cannot tolerate badgering, insulting and belittling one another.

So AGAIN, I ask: Please show respect for one another, and show some more maturity. That is the foundation of this site, and that is what we require of our members.

Respectfully,

David Hodgkins, Administrator, TheFactoryFiveForum.com

:)

[Ks2]

Sticking with the stock tank means the existing fuel pressure gauge, fuel level gauge, pump, fuel vapor canister,(with modification) the fuel and vacuum lines, and all the wiring connectors can be re-used without much effort at all.

given the body designs something may need to be done to make the fill port work..

[thebeerbaron]

given the body designs something may need to be done to make the fill port work..

If the tank stays under the seat, maybe something useful can finally be done all my excess gas, though "fill port" doesn't sound too comfortable. :)

[slopoke]

Geez! I can hardly wait 'til tomorrow when we can all be wrong ... save one!

[Ks2]

your on to something there.... they now are supplementing fuel with urea (it has a high hydrogen content for each molecule of pee)

if i recall correctly it is new BMW 335 diesels that have a urea tank onboard that gets filled up when the car is brought in to have the oil changed

EDIT* http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2007/session4/deer07_mattes.pdf

[VTX]

Ks2,

Urea isn't a fuel supplement. At least it's not on my 2011 F-350. The urea is injected into the exhaust stream and reduces NOX emissions in diesel engines. I would assume on the BMW it's is the same thing.

[StatGSR]

^ yea it just gets dumped into the exhaust to help reduce emissions, it does not run through the engine or improve engine performance. basically any relatively modern diesel vehicle will have it.

[Fast818]

Posting my design for the 818 good luck to all:cool:

[CooperD]

We're not asking for "rainbows and unicorns" here. Just the ability to carry on a respectful conversation, even in instances where you have a difference of opinion. As early users of this forum, you get to set the tone for what the general atmosphere is here. But by instulting each other, you are setting a tone in which others will not post because they do not want to get "jumped on". I have personally received PM's stating such, and this goes against our stated charter of the forum.

Kudos for all the effort into moderating this forum - building a "safe and respectful" culture on an internet forum is a huge challenge, and I'm glad to see the efforts from the moderators here to do so. I know we're a "bunch of car guys" here, but there's no reason we can't also be mature adults in conversation also.

I'm on a number of different car forums, and the ones with good moderation cultures are the ones I can't wait to check and participate in every day, while the others are forums I dread trolling through all the BS to find that nugget of wisdom here and there.

[riptide motorsport]

very true CooperD, hit up: ffcars, youll loove it there too.

[Benji]

Nice to see we have a resident expert with equal amounts of engineering expertise and tact.

Really? I can't express clearly enough how much I'm laughing that *you* just said that :D

[keys2heaven]

At the risk of opening a can or worms again, when I mentioned storing fuel in the humps I was thinking more in line with a fuel cell design similar to Formula 1. It looks like those cars use a cell the starts under the seat and slopes upward behind the driver. I fully realize that not ALL the fuel would be (nor should it be) stored up top. But, it seemed a logical place to extend the fuel tank/cell. The majority of the fuel would be mid/low center of gravity.

Of course, custom fuel cells cost $$$ and keeping the costs low would mean reusing the subie tank.

The chassis shows a pretty tight fit for fuel. Maybe not, but that's my first impression.

[subyrod]

Just thinking out loud, but my 2002 WRX with the 2.0L and stock turbo, cobb stage II ecu and full exhaust (including up pipe) gets about 28mpg average, driving about 65-70 mph, very level commute. When I drive 55-60, I can get 31mpg. The car weighs about 3300lbs with me in it. I'm guessing the 818 at about 2000 lbs with driver could easily get 35mpg driving the speed limit (this does include the occasional freeway entrance blast). When I fill up, I'm usually putting in about 12-13 gallons, so Im' assuming it has about a 15 gallon tank (?). I would think a 10-12 gallon tank would net a good range. I can usually go 350-370 miles on said mpg's.

[JRL]

Really? I can't express clearly enough how much I'm laughing that *you* just said that :D

Glad I amuse you.