Open Design Discussion and What's NEXT!

[05xtsy]

If you are at all interested in sketching more in the future, I would say stay away from things like rulers, or templates. It is always better to improve your free hand abilities first. There are a few things that you can do to practice.

1) using 8x11 paper or bigger, turn it so that its wider rather than taller. put a point on the left side of the paper and a point on the right side of the paper and connect the line as straight as possible (draw with your shoulder rather than your wrist) do this all the way down the page.

2) draw a page of ellipses that when you bring the line around to where you started you touch that point. On the ones that you don't complete the circle or go over, make a small note of the mistake to (circle it) and then move on to sketching.

If you do at least one page of each before you start any sketching, it will drastically improve your free hand skills. And keep the practice paper so that you can go back and look at your progress.

[Niburu]

All I ask, please dear lord is no Audi-esque LED fairy lights in the head lamp assembles....pretty please

[PhyrraM]

All I ask, please dear lord is no Audi-esque LED fairy lights in the head lamp assembles....pretty please

I think the target $10K price of the kit will keep you safe.

[Niburu]

I think the target $10K price of the kit will keep you safe.

I dunno, they're even using them on some of the new Kia's and practically every aftermarket headlight assembly on E-bay has them

[redsharK]

aren't all new cars come 2012 required to use LED lighting?

[Niburu]

aren't all new cars come 2012 required to use LED lighting?
not in the slightest

[Oppenheimer]

aren't all new cars come 2012 required to use LED lighting?

Its not LED lights in general he is against, its those DRL that the Audi's have, where there is an 'eyelash' of LEDs under the headlights that just looks, well his term was 'fairy'. Meanwhile the BMW version of this concept, the so-called 'angel-eyes', looks kinda cool to most.

[Niburu]

Its not LED lights in general he is against, its those DRL that the Audi's have, where there is an 'eyelash' of LEDs under the headlights that just looks, well his term was 'fairy'. Meanwhile the BMW version of this concept, the so-called 'angel-eyes', looks kinda cool to most.

the term "fairy lights" actually came from Top Gear, it's what we here in the states would call Xmas tree lights
and they're the most overused design feature I can think of
and in Virginia and many other states, if just one of those iddybiddy lights goes out the car will fail safety inspection
LED headlights on the other hand would be fine by me, it's the eyebrows that kill me

[crackedcornish]

why not just cut some space out of the area between the scoop and the edge of the door on the GTM and use that body as a base for this car...something like this

(since I can't draw I resort to cutting up pics)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/fbdcf0e0.jpg

[Rotr8]

Thats a perfectly logical suggestion,

[Vman7]

I kind of have a little bit of the same idea, but not the body part. Use the headlight buckets from the GTM, maybe use a Miata or porsche windshield, and some kind of sports car taillights, also side mirrors from some other car this way FFR doesn't have to get into high cost of something designed new.

[Vman7]

I love the Porsche 918 Spyder, something along these lines, maybe a little more refined would be nice.
http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201003/2010-porsche-918-spyder-25_800x0w.jpg

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201003/2010-porsche-918-spyder-22_800x0w.jpg

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201003/2010-porsche-918-spyder-31_800x0w.jpg

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201003/2010-porsche-918-spyder-24_800x0w.jpg

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201003/2010-porsche-918-spyder-21_800x0w.jpg

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201003/2010-porsche-918-spyder-20_800x0w.jpg

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/201003/2010-porsche-918-spyder-23_800x0w.jpg

[Steve91T]

I agree...beautiful car.

[keys2heaven]

I agree...beautiful car.

Agreed.....gimee, gimee, gimee.

[Bill_H]

I love the 918 too. I've been trying to sketch a few designs that follow its profile, but the FFR template has wheels that are too small and too much of an upright seating position for it to look right. It's tough to draw something with the template that has a similar stance.

[OregonDave]

I love the targa top cars like the Porsche 918, Ferrari 328, and the Ferrari 355. What I wish they offered was a polycarbonate targa top to let in light while keeping out the wind and rain (I live in Oregon, enough said). Cost and complexity may make this impractical for the base car, but it could be an optional upgrade.

I completely agree with the earlier idea of not designing this car by committee - that's where the big OEMs go wrong - too many people with a say in the design and the original intent gets translated into something uterly boring. The big OEMs also keep their designs a secret so they don't cannibalize existing sales. I don't see this car cannibalizing other FFR sales so I'd definitely recommend that FFR share the design with a focus group or the larger community to get input before finalizing things.

[Jon A]

I love the 918 too. I've been trying to sketch a few designs that follow its profile, but the FFR template has wheels that are too small and too much of an upright seating position for it to look right. It's tough to draw something with the template that has a similar stance.

The 918 has a 104.3" wheelbase. As much as I LOVE the lines of the 918, it would probably be tough to capture the same stance/profile in 95". I also really like the idea of a targa but am concerned that it would be tough to do that and stay within the sub-$10K price tag.

-Jon A.

[AVIONX]

I love the targa top cars like the Porsche 918, Ferrari 328, and the Ferrari 355. What I wish they offered was a polycarbonate targa top to let in light while keeping out the wind and rain (I live in Oregon, enough said). Cost and complexity may make this impractical for the base car, but it could be an optional upgrade.

I completely agree with the earlier idea of not designing this car by committee - that's where the big OEMs go wrong - too many people with a say in the design and the original intent gets translated into something uterly boring. The big OEMs also keep their designs a secret so they don't cannibalize existing sales. I don't see this car cannibalizing other FFR sales so I'd definitely recommend that FFR share the design with a focus group or the larger community to get input before finalizing things.

Tinted polycarb targas have eventually been offered for just about every targa car ever built. From the Fiat X-1/9 to the Corvette. They are actually ridicolously simple as the only moving part must by design be the same as the one on the standard targa. Usually an aftermarket company offers them first and then the OEM follows later on. By the way they totally rock on everything but the hottest days and can make a big difference in the percieved tightness in a cramped cockpit.

[Vman7]

The 918 has a 104.3" wheelbase. As much as I LOVE the lines of the 918, it would probably be tough to capture the same stance/profile in 95". I also really like the idea of a targa but am concerned that it would be tough to do that and stay within the sub-$10K price tag.

-Jon A.

I am thinking about doing that very thing, you will be surprised at what can be done with a little changing of things here and there. Taking out 9" in the wheelbase isn't to bad, just adjust it here and there. If you have seen any of my work at the "other place" you will see what I am talking about.

But like I said, thinking about it, don't know if I really want to spend the time.

David

[Justen]

Come on david, at least a quick sketch? maybe you can inspire some people that are willing to commit the time needed to make it look complete

[carrera]

If you like the 918, then you'll really like the "Halcyon" posted by Stavros on page 9 of the Grassroots Motorsports design contest forum. It's the entry level Porsche that Porsche will never build.
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/factory-five-design-contest-thread/32412/page9/
In my mind, the design contest is over and the Halcyon is it!

[keys2heaven]

If you guys haven't ben over to GRM. they've posted the first weekly design winner. And, personally, there's a concept by Stavros on the design thread (page 10) that absolutely blows me away. Its about halfway down on the page and done in silver. Breathtaking.

[MDRex]

+1 for Stavros concept.

[Olimk2]

Nice but heavily based on the 8c Alfa and 918, i prefer something completely original...

[riptide motorsport]

Dont like it , not edgy enough, the concept sketch is so much nicer...JMHO Steven Sorrt of bland and elise looking.

[mn_vette]

One thing that I would love to see in a design is a single exhaust output that is integrated into the body work. Something like what the GTM or maybe something like the RX8 has.

[keys2heaven]

Just saw the concept by Xabier and WOW.

All I can say is that if Project 818 looks anything some of these concepts, then we're in for a real treat.

[Benji]

From the Grassroots Motorsports forum:


http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/sketch1.jpg


If they stopped the competition right now and just went with this design I'd be okay with that! I'd be VERY happy in fact! There is a LOT right with this and if it didn't make it into the finals if not wins the competition, I'd be very surprised.

[Vman7]

I love what Xabier came up with, wonder what the rear looks like.

[AVIONX]

From the Grassroots Motorsports forum:




If they stopped the competition right now and just went with this design I'd be okay with that! I'd be VERY happy in fact! There is a LOT right with this and if it didn't make it into the finals if not wins the competition, I'd be very surprised.

I can't believe I'm saying this but seriously. If the design competition is adding even a single day to the schedule to produce this kit, then please end the competition now and build me this car!!! (XABIERS DESIGN ABOVE) It seems like a waste of 3 months to continue. The good news is if I'm wrong, and a design comes in on the last day and it smokes this one...wins...and gets created for the kit properly...I still win :)

Simply incredible, exactly what I want.

[Doc_FFR]

+1 very nice looking Xabier

[AVIONX]

Has FFR thought about employing any "outside the box" design elements to add simplicity and lightness to the car? I work in aviation and we do stuff like this all the time. Examples would be things like

Using the radiator for cockpit heat (eliminates the need for a heater core, plumbing, leaks, etc.)

Using the frame to route water from the front mounted radiator to the aft mounted engine (eliminates the 2 long (almost length of the car)/heavy/leak prone radiator lines, and retains stock front mounted radiator tube/hoses/etc)

Using a major frame tube as a fuel tank (a portion of the Cobra frame rails would work great for this) eliminates fuel tank and tank mounts.

Or is that kind of stuff just silly?

In simple turbo aircraft they eliminated the entire anti-freeze cooling system and used the heat from the exhaust to heat the cabin.

Well. You said open design discussion :)

[Flashburn]

I'd love to see a front that made good use of the hawkeyes. They're my favorite headlights.

[Dave Smith]

I LOVE that design! (Benji-Xabier)... supe clean, purposeful and proportioned. There are a really fun assortment already and I am really glad we went down this path f doing the design competiton.

Dave Smith

[Benji]

I LOVE that design! (Benji-Xabier)... supe clean, purposeful and proportioned. There are a really fun assortment already and I am really glad we went down this path f doing the design competiton.

Dave Smith

Just to be clear I have nothing to do with that design at all, I merely linked the image from the GRM forum over here.

ALL credit (and definitely Xabier is due some serious credit!) MUST go to Xabier for a fantastic design.

[crackedcornish]

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/sketch1.jpg

very nice indeed...but I would like to see a version with a larger, more aggressive, side scoop and a front end that had a curve along the top edge that didn't somehow remind me of a mg midget (or whatever that model was that had the big black bumper)

[Dave Smith]

The design competition is barely a week old and already there are some dramatic ideas and submissions that take the concept in interesting directions. There was a lot of discussion about a top and here are three cool submissions that highlight the importance of NOT limiting the design and creativity at this point.

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/images/FactoryFivesubieperez.jpg
Concept by Tim Perez, Beautiful targa top bertonish lines

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/images/liying.jpg
Concept by Steve Wang, Ultra-light KTM X-Bow meets Mach5

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/images/xabier.jpg
Beautiful concept sketch by Xabier on Grassroots Motorsports' Website, Topless roadster

[Kc_Shane]

If I was voting on these three cars I would have to go with

1. Xabier
2. Steve Wang
3. Tim Perez.

[PhyrraM]

.....a front end that had a curve along the top edge that didn't somehow remind me of a mg midget ...

I saw the resmeblence too. But I went the opposite way...I love the subtle reminder of where small, affordable sports cars came from.

[Olimk2]

Xabier is a serious contender!! Nice and simple.

[crackedcornish]

another hot one just showed up over at grassroots

by NXXN
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k550/NXXN/Form_2.jpg

[Dave Smith]

That is really HOT... wait, I can see it with a higher rear pillar and windscreen with a TARGA top. :)

Dave

[WhirlpoolBrewer]

Xabier has my vote. MAYBE a little love for the hood. The hood needs something besides being flat and ordinary. Nothing over the top, but it does need a touch of lovin, then its PERFECT.

[MDRex]

That is really HOT... wait, I can see it with a higher rear pillar and windscreen with a TARGA top. :)

Dave


Look who's stirring up trouble now.

[crackedcornish]

like a slicked up X1/9 http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/Animated%20gifs/thumbup11.gif


That is really HOT... wait, I can see it with a higher rear pillar and windscreen with a TARGA top. :)

Dave

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Xabier has my vote. MAYBE a little love for the hood. The hood needs something besides being flat and ordinary. Nothing over the top, but it does need a touch of lovin, then its PERFECT.

I agree. Maybe some details on the top of the hood like the new Dodge Charger. Would help to increase the rigidity also....

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j88/vacextar/2011_dodge_charger_group_fd_1104101_717.jpg

[crackedcornish]

I like it!
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/b51448e6.jpg

[D2W]

^ me too! ^

[MikeK]

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/sketch1.jpg

If you build this, I might be persuaded to just carry an umbrella. Very well done Xabier

[Gollum]

That is really HOT... wait, I can see it with a higher rear pillar and windscreen with a TARGA top. :)

Dave

Rolling On The Floor Laughing

+1 For best Dave S quote of the week.

I really like Xabier's design mostly because I can see that as being a functional fastback design if one were to design a fixed or removable hard top. Would look just as good as the fastback S2000's out there, except it has much more air of heritage. It sure looks good without a top as is too!

[GAThunder019]

I don't see doors as being necessary. It really isn't a big deal to climb into a low car and slide down into the seat. Eliminating doors would go a long way in making the body not needing bodywork and paint. Just imaging how much build time could be saved by not having to fit and align doors.

Olli

Olli,

Not ALL potential builders/owners of this car will be "twenty-somethings" with flexible joints and agility! (o;
Considering ease of entry and exit will DEFINITELY broaden the purchase base. PLUS doors, and windows, will broaden the weather
conditions the car can be used in! This project will NOT be only for Spec Racing, but for STREET USE for MOST of the purchasers.
I can certainly see this as a GREAT Urban commuter car during the week, and STILL be a BLAST for the weekends!

GAThunder019

[GAThunder019]

I like the "Xabier" design pretty well!
The front nose resembles the newly released Jaguar XKRT, (or whatever the letters for their new "supercar") but looks quite nice.
A Targa top could be 'created' by having a window panel that would 'drop-in' between the two 'head-rest' pods before you attach the roof panel!
A small, inconspicuous groove can be molded in, and a nice aluminum frame around the glass to dress it up a little.
A rollbar could also be accommodated by routing it just barely under the edge of the body as it comes up and across behind the driver, and have
just a u-shaped cut-out to allow the bar to cross to the other side. (The roll-bar would also add strength to support the Targa top!) The groove
for the glass insert could be just behind the rool-bar, so that it would 'cover' the bar when the top is on. (particularly if it was tinted glass.)

GAThunder019

[JRL]

How about a link to the cars already submitted.............

[GAThunder019]

why not just cut some space out of the area between the scoop and the edge of the door on the GTM and use that body as a base for this car...something like this

(since I can't draw I resort to cutting up pics)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/fbdcf0e0.jpg

Sort of a "GTM Jr" (o;

[Oppenheimer]

A Targa top could be 'created' by having a window panel that would 'drop-in' between the two 'head-rest' pods before you attach the roof panel!

GAThunder019

Exactly what I was thinking! Plus you could put the Targa top on without the rear window in if you wanted, for change. If there isn't room in the doors for (optional) full size roll up side windows, letterbox style windows, like in the SVX could be used.

[MikeK]

Exactly what I was thinking! Plus you could put the Targa top on without the rear window in if you wanted, for change. If there isn't room in the doors for (optional) full size roll up side windows, letterbox style windows, like in the SVX could be used.

Yes please, anything but another softtop that screams afterthought

[Benji]

A Targa top could be 'created' by having a window panel that would 'drop-in' between the two 'head-rest' pods before you attach the roof panel!
A small, inconspicuous groove can be molded in, and a nice aluminum frame around the glass to dress it up a little.
A rollbar could also be accommodated by routing it just barely under the edge of the body as it comes up and across behind the driver, and have
just a u-shaped cut-out to allow the bar to cross to the other side. (The roll-bar would also add strength to support the Targa top!) The groove
for the glass insert could be just behind the rool-bar, so that it would 'cover' the bar when the top is on. (particularly if it was tinted glass.)


This.

And there isn't any reason why the glass couldn't be in there permanently like a wind deflector, that only leaves the top (should be quite a simplistic design at that point!) and the side windows which is where the complexity comes in.

[Someday I Suppose]

Did I just hear Jim scream?


That is really HOT... wait, I can see it with a higher rear pillar and windscreen with a TARGA top. :)

Dave

[Randy Jones]

Those Barney '05 and Xavier drawings are amazing.

If it ended up being the Barney 05 one exactly, I'd build one. (And I SWORE my next one was going to be a Gen2 GTM.) :)

Nice job!!

R :)

[crackedcornish]

Sort of a "GTM Jr" (o;

it would save some $$ on production costs if we reused the GTM as a base for the car....right?

[FFRSpec72]

Seems this venture ( http://cis.subaru.com/ctd/lu?RID=1-LTRHTR&CON=1-1SJ5-590&PRO=&AID=&CID=1-LTN06H&COID=1-LU16U2&T=http%3a%2f%2fwww.fhi.co.jp%2fenglish%2fcontents% 2fpdf_en_69036.pdf&TN=Link-fhipdf&RT=Clicked+On+URL ) is also heading in "somewhat" similar direction.

[D2W]

Seems this venture ( http://cis.subaru.com/ctd/lu?RID=1-LTRHTR&CON=1-1SJ5-590&PRO=&AID=&CID=1-LTN06H&COID=1-LU16U2&T=http%3a%2f%2fwww.fhi.co.jp%2fenglish%2fcontents% 2fpdf_en_69036.pdf&TN=Link-fhipdf&RT=Clicked+On+URL ) is also heading in "somewhat" similar direction.

I don't see that being the same at all. It looks like the platform that the new Toyota AE-86 (Front-engine rear-drive) is going to be built on.

[keys2heaven]

Coupe version of NXXN's earlier design. I think he took Dave's advice.

Drool....:D

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z275/keys2heaven/Form_R2.jpg

[crackedcornish]

Coupe version of NXXN's earlier design. I think he took Dave's advice.

Drool....:D

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z275/keys2heaven/Form_R2.jpg

pretty sweet....I'll take mine without the wing though

[keys2heaven]

^^

Yeah, maybe a bit less wing.

[D2W]

I like it!
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/b51448e6.jpg

Where did you find this?
It's exactly what I had in mind to design.

[crackedcornish]

Where did you find this?
It's exactly what I had in mind to design.

I've been searching a lot of car pics lately because of this car design contest (I'm not entering, but I had hoped to inspire someone who has the talent with them) .... I think I found that one when I was Googling Lotus Concept cars...

here's the link
http://my.opera.com/fuzzbug/albums/showpic.dml?album=880483&picture=12080091

[05xtsy]

Made some changes. Still Some details to iron out before I do the other views. Like the changes?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/FFRsecond1.jpg

[keys2heaven]

Made some changes. Still Some details to iron out before I do the other views. Like the changes?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/FFRsecond1.jpg

I do like the door better now.

[crackedcornish]

05xtsy, I'd like to see you get even more aggressive with the side scoop...something like the orange and silver car I posted

[Vman7]

This is getting frustrating with some of the so called guidelines, the biggest one being the tire ht. 24" which for the most part is a 215/45/17 tire, which looks like it belongs on a toy....lol Only problem I see going say to something in the 25" to 25.6" range is it will change the height of the transaxle. Other then tha I pretty much have the side view base all worked out. Now comes the hard work....details. Then of course working on the rear, front and top views.

Sorry not going to post any pictures just yet until get most of the details done, don't want to give the wrong idea, then it looks different when done.

David

[Rotr8]

dont get tied up with something like a tire size, I pretty much sized up 19" wheels on my concept, I dont think Dave will mind one bit its more about inspiring design then drawing technically accurate dimensions,,,

[Vman7]

dont get tied up with something like a tire size, I pretty much sized up 19" wheels on my concept, I dont think Dave will mind one bit its more about inspiring design then drawing technically accurate dimensions,,,

I hear yah, no way to really get totally accurate, but some what close would be nice. But with that being said, you are right I am staying more focused on the design. I have decided to go with 18" wheels and 235/40/18 F and 275/35/18 R tires, which are roughly 25.5" Dia.

[Rotr8]

thats funny, my volks for my RX8 are 18x9s and 18x10s with those exact tire sizes,,,

[crobin4]

I hear yah, no way to really get totally accurate, but some what close would be nice. But with that being said, you are right I am staying more focused on the design. I have decided to go with 18" wheels and 235/40/18 F and 275/35/18 R tires, which are roughly 25.5" Dia.

I think you are on the correct track, This is the bare minimum tire I would want under mine. I think anything smaller will neuter it beyond belief. I think the majority of 2.0L builds will have 300hp and 2.5L build 300-375hp at the flywheel. Mine will have 400hp. We MUST have some tire under this thing.

[PhyrraM]

I disagree.

I think the majority of WRX builds will have 227HP. And the majority of STI builds will have 300HP.

Also, if the weight distribution is close to 50/50 you want the same size contact patch front to rear or you will be compromising the handling out of the box. To me, this is not a dragster or a stoplight racer.

At 1800 pounds, I'm thinking 225-245 section tires at all 4 corners will give all the grip you will need and still be affordable, common, and have good road and steering manners.

[Rotr8]

Kinda depends on what look, or function your going for, the Volks I have are primarily a summer only package, for the track I have a set of GTC-01s 9"s all around for a balanced contact patch. With the low cost of the kit your gonna see a big variety in the use of the car, from show to go and all out track.

[redsharK]

I think even a "stock" build will have more hp then factory just based on different intake piping and exhaust configurations.
Throw on a decent safe custom tune and you will have an extra 50hp over factory, if not more.

Red

[Horhay]

Good point red, I doubt many folks will go for the grocery getter style stock exhaust and intake setup, making a tune a logical expense if only to adjust for the changes in piping.

[crobin4]

Good point red, I doubt many folks will go for the grocery getter style stock exhaust and intake setup, making a tune a logical expense if only to adjust for the changes in piping.
Yes, that's what i had i mind. I think the intake will change(airbox or lack of one), the 2.0 and non -Sti 2.5l guys will want to change the uppipe and the turbo-back is a given. with those things and a tune and more boost your at 300HP. The Sti builds will easily see 350 to 375HP. No need to swap out the uppipe on the Sti.

[Karlo]

He has some interesting designs http://www.ugursahindesign.com

985 986 987 988 989

[Vman7]

I thought I would upload this design I did back 2003, wouldn't really work for FFR 818 projoct though. It was originally designed as a GTP race car. I never really finished it. I am old school. I wish I knew how to use and could afford a 3D modeling program like Solidworks.

Anyhoot, thought I would throw it in anyways. This isn't the design I am working on though.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=990&d=1299996402

Enjoy!
David

[sonicrex]

That looks awesome David. :cool:

[Andrei]

Great news to see a new design being built. I could imagine this as a T-top, especially considering the dimensions of the car. As a targa top, this could easily be a daily driver, as long as the top can be stored inside the car (trunk, behind rear seats, etc)

[Benji]

David, looks fantastic, you say it wouldn't work but with a shorter nose and tail (less the rear wing, as nice as it looks), moving the driver position and windshield slightly further over the front axle and bringing in the rear wheel to make up for the 7 inches you need to loose I think it might be alright.

[Rotr8]

Great news to see a new design being built. I could imagine this as a T-top, especially considering the dimensions of the car. As a targa top, this could easily be a daily driver, as long as the top can be stored inside the car (trunk, behind rear seats, etc)

Dont imagine too much - per another thread - "To those who want a top I understand but if we are to meet all of our other goals, price, simplicity, and weight, it cannot be part of the initial project. I do not see this car comparable to a boxster or s2000, which while great cars compromise perfomance for daily driveability. What we are making is an elemental sports car in the spirit of a lotus 7 or Atom but with just enough more chassis and body to be comfortable driving around on the street with full size SUVs and Semis in the next lane. For us to try and squeeze a top and functional side windows into a car this price they would be more of a frustrating compromise than an actual benefit. A soft top similiar to the new roadster top is still very possible as an option, but it would likely come after the car is launched."

[unclebigbad]

Me too!

[unclebigbad]

I like it!
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/b51448e6.jpg

Me too!

[riptide motorsport]

David that looks awesome...submit!!!!!!!! Steven

[Vman7]

Dont imagine too much - per another thread - "To those who want a top I understand but if we are to meet all of our other goals, price, simplicity, and weight, it cannot be part of the initial project. I do not see this car comparable to a boxster or s2000, which while great cars compromise perfomance for daily driveability. What we are making is an elemental sports car in the spirit of a lotus 7 or Atom but with just enough more chassis and body to be comfortable driving around on the street with full size SUVs and Semis in the next lane. For us to try and squeeze a top and functional side windows into a car this price they would be more of a frustrating compromise than an actual benefit. A soft top similiar to the new roadster top is still very possible as an option, but it would likely come after the car is launched."

Rotr8, I saw that quote over at GRM as well, but I think if the right design comes up by somebody that first is a Spyder (Roadster) but is designed in a way that is for the most part an easy upgrade or option to say a Targa top without changing the design other then just interchanging say the engine cover area with another piece that would work with the targa top.

I get the idea about the spirit of the Lotus 7 & Atom. I love the Lotus 7, but that's in a area all it's own, as far as the Atom style goes I hate it, looks like it's not finished and more for track use then anything else.

Was thinking about the tire size again, mostly for a baseline to design around for the fenders to allow both a stock size, but at the same time allow for wider (but not extreme) and a little taller tires.

David

[Vman7]

David that looks awesome...submit!!!!!!!! Steven

Thanks Steven :) I not going to submit that one, if I changed it to work it would look way to different, as cool as it is, it would be better say maybe as a rebody option for the GTM.

Thanks for the compliments :)

David

[05xtsy]

Dont imagine too much - per another thread - "To those who want a top I understand but if we are to meet all of our other goals, price, simplicity, and weight, it cannot be part of the initial project. I do not see this car comparable to a boxster or s2000, which while great cars compromise perfomance for daily driveability. What we are making is an elemental sports car in the spirit of a lotus 7 or Atom but with just enough more chassis and body to be comfortable driving around on the street with full size SUVs and Semis in the next lane. For us to try and squeeze a top and functional side windows into a car this price they would be more of a frustrating compromise than an actual benefit. A soft top similiar to the new roadster top is still very possible as an option, but it would likely come after the car is launched."

I really don't see how this is discouraging, they have been saying this from the beginning. This car is not going to go from paper to pavement without some work, and molding design elements from 1 original design just means more fun. Well at least to me.

[Rotr8]

Well then your design doesn't reflect your knowledge of the design parameters,

[Vman7]

Well then your design doesn't reflect your knowledge of the design parameters,

Who was that comment directed at?

[Bill_H]

I came across these videos yesterday that might be insightful to us aspiring car designers. Frank Stephenson goes over the styling details he incorporated into the new McLaren MP4-12C. I like his quote at the end (I'm paraphrasing here): "The car is optimized with engineering principles. I think that is the secret to a timeless design. Animals don't change every year. They've evolved over hundreds of thousands of years and have reached optimal shapes"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgiBh5ekHOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyN0A_jTkI0

[Rotr8]

Who was that comment directed at?

sorry for the confusion, it was in reply to 05xtsy,

[Vman7]

sorry for the confusion, it was in reply to 05xtsy,

ah ok......lol, can get confusing around here at times.

[Vman7]

05xtsy, hope you don't mind, I took the liberty of modifying your design some. I love the overall design. Just something about the side vents that kind of bothered me.

But any rate, hope you don't mind, just an idea on a great design. :)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=992&d=1300059017

[0100]

Thanks Steven :) I not going to submit that one, if I changed it to work it would look way to different, as cool as it is, it would be better say maybe as a rebody option for the GTM.

Thanks for the compliments :)

David

That looks awesome David, it definitely would be a badass gen2 GTM.

Cool video of the McLaren, Bill.

A rear exhaust like that McLaren would be very cool.

[05xtsy]

05xtsy, hope you don't mind, I took the liberty of modifying your design some. I love the overall design. Just something about the side vents that kind of bothered me.

But any rate, hope you don't mind, just an idea on a great design. :)

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=992&d=1300059017


Would it make me a jerk if I said that I did mind? :) I wouldn't be opposed of someone making suggestions. Its just that I did all this work and am continuing to make changes and then there are comments like the one above from 0100 "That looks awesome David, it definitely would be a badass gen2 GTM." And It sort of becomes yourdesign to someone. Ultimately I have already turned in the finished version of that direction.

[05xtsy]

Well then your design doesn't reflect your knowledge of the design parameters,

Glad to know that you know my thoughts.

Who said that my design had to represent my knowledge of the design parameters, or that I only have one direction, or that I have only submitted one direction? That's a pretty well thought out assumption ending in a comma though.

[0100]

then there are comments like the one above from 0100 "That looks awesome David, it definitely would be a badass gen2 GTM."

Probably should have been more specific, I was talking about the avenger design which he posted and said was more fitting for the GTM.

I agree though, he should have asked you first before making any design changes of your design.

[05xtsy]

Now that some things have come to light in the contest, Thought I would have some fun finishing this design before I dive deeper into my other direction. Had the first one done then just played around with it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/FFRsecondfinal.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/PDTopOff.jpg

[unclebigbad]

Now take the top off.

[unclebigbad]

nevermind.

[Vman7]

Would it make me a jerk if I said that I did mind? :) I wouldn't be opposed of someone making suggestions. Its just that I did all this work and am continuing to make changes and then there are comments like the one above from 0100 "That looks awesome David, it definitely would be a badass gen2 GTM." And It sort of becomes yourdesign to someone. Ultimately I have already turned in the finished version of that direction.

05xtsy - 0100 wasn't saying "That looks awesome David, it definitely would be a badass gen2 GTM." to your car design that I played with. He was saying it to the car design I did back in 2003. This one. Sorry for the confusion :)


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=990&d=1299996402

[Ridefast]

This would be a great concept to build and I would love to see some kind of mounts or research done for the high end builder to consider putting in this 2.8 liter 10,000 rpm 400 hp V8 made by putting two hyabusa heads together, this would be a great car for the use of that motor. Go to http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm to look at the specs. Just dreaming.

Sean

[PhyrraM]

The idea here is to keep the thoughts flowing. Every entrant is 'giving' their design to FFR, winner or not. I don't see too much difference between using words to say "What would it look like if that vent was smaller?" or just showing the same thought with a picture. There's a solid record here of who's basic design it is.

The goal is to: As a group, give FFR a strong idea of what we want. So when they start tweaking it they don't miss the mark. To that end, because I can't draw, my contribution is simply: Something that looks OEM, kill the 'kit car' stigma once and for all.

Anybody who thinks their design will make production as submitted has not read all of Dave's or Jim's posts.

[05xtsy]

05xtsy - 0100 wasn't saying "That looks awesome David, it definitely would be a badass gen2 GTM." to your car design that I played with. He was saying it to the car design I did back in 2003. This one. Sorry for the confusion :)


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=990&d=1299996402


I understand Phyrra. Vman7, Gotcha. I'm Not mad btw. Like I said ultimately I already turned it in.

[Vman7]

I understand Phyrra. Vman7, Gotcha. I'm Not mad btw. Like I said ultimately I already turned it in.

Not sure if it says we can't turn in more then one design or not, I'll have to back and look at the rules again.

05xtsy I like your design :), if you have another idea or a variation of your design, I say submit that as well. I plan on showing alternate ideas with mine, like alt taillights, headlights, different engine covers etc.

[keys2heaven]

Congrats Xabier for being the weekly winner. Very nice concept.

[PhyrraM]

Not sure if it says we can't turn in more then one design or not, I'll have to back and look at the rules again.

05xtsy I like your design :), if you have another idea or a variation of your design, I say submit that as well. I plan on showing alternate ideas with mine, like alt taillights, headlights, different engine covers etc.

Dave has said to submit as much as you like. I also believe that the GRM staff has said the same on the GRM forums.

I think suggesting alternatives, or even bullet-pointing design details, with your submission is a good idea. For example, if you design uses the WRX taillights or a side mirror from a Mini it should be stated. I wouldn't assume the judges, or more importantly FFR, will realize what your design is supposed to embody and why.

[PhyrraM]

Congrats Xabier for being the weekly winner. Very nice concept.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/media/F5%20weekly%20winners/xabieralbizuponce%20entry.jpg

Agreed! Congrats on a very nice design. That one has simple, fun, and exciting all over it. I especially like that it DOES NOT look like a scaled down supercar. Also it looks like an easy conversion to either open track toy, OR targa/hardtop daily driver without ruining the basic shape. Depending on the width, the complete WRX dashboard might even look perfectly at home.

Some of the functional details I like are the large front opening for a larger-than-stock radiator and front brake cooling. The front fender vents to reduce front lift/air buildup. Also the lower rear vents for engine air and air to go UP through the intercooler and out the engine cover (reversed from stock WRX). I also like the realistic looking front chin height and shortish front overhang. Sometimes, it's too easy to design something that hits driveways and speed bumps.

About the only thing that concerns me it making the lights look OEM/professional and the rear overhang. While some short rear overhang designs look good with an exposed transmission end, I don't think this one would. They will need tofind the balance between a nice short overhang per the drawing, and one just long enough to cover the transmission.

Props to Xabier on a job well done. Looking forward to more entrants.

[0100]

^I agree, LOVE IT! Congrats man. Looks so sexy as is, for the street. Add a front splitter and rear wing and this thing would be a track beast!

[xabier]

Thank you guys!! I really appreciate every comment about my design as they all are useful for me to know what it is wrong but also what you specially liked about it. Special thanks to PhyrraM, I really liked your post and read it carefully to know what I can improve ;) Im working on it, the rear is not defined yet and i am finishing the front.

[Oppenheimer]

Thank you guys!! I really appreciate every comment about my design as they all are useful for me to know what it is wrong but also what you specially liked about it. Special thanks to PhyrraM, I really liked your post and read it carefully to know what I can improve ;) Im working on it, the rear is not defined yet and i am finishing the front.

Did you create other views of this design? Would love to see those angles.

You asked for constructive criticism, so here goes. First, AWE-SOME!!! Me likes. Someone mentioned before that the hood is missing something, more detail needed, but I like it as is. Probably would still like it if said detail were added. I like the side vents, a lot, but am a little torn about the way the top of the rear one, near the door handle, ends sharply in an arrow. I like it, but something keeps pulling my eye towards it to focus on, and it ends up sticking out like the preverbial enflammed thumb. Not sure what the fix is for this, or if it even needs one. Afraid that softening this would take some of the aggression out of the look. Maybe play around with that though.

I really like the whole nose, curve of the fenders, headlights, hood shape. Especially the grill, kinda got a C***a mouth thing going on with the way the top of the opening curves across the front. Don't mess with that if you go changing things.

I like the dual camel hump headrest things (theres gotta be a name for that sort of 'architectural' detail, no?) As was mentioned, I like that its not Supercar clone wedge/bullet/missle shaped (I vote for more car, less missle with whatever the final design is.) Also agree it looks great open top, yet the design would lend itself to targa (with a soft or hard top insert).

Oh, this was supposed to be a criticism, right? I guess the only thing I have suggest is how the rear vent comes to a point at the top by the door handle. Might have something to say about the rear when I see it.

[keys2heaven]

Did you create other views of this design? Would love to see those angles.
I really like the whole nose, curve of the fenders, headlights, hood shape. Especially the grill, kinda got a C***a mouth thing going on with the way the top of the opening curves across the front. Don't mess with that if you go changing things.

Me too. One of the first things that stood out to me. Very C**ra-esque.


I like the dual camel hump headrest things (theres gotta be a name for that sort of 'architectural' detail, no?) As was mentioned, I like that its not Supercar clone wedge/bullet/missle shaped (I vote for more car, less missle with whatever the final design is.) Also agree it looks great open top, yet the design would lend itself to targa (with a soft or hard top insert).

I like the design, but can't get the Pontiac Solstice out of my head as it has a similar setup with those headrest humps/pods.

[Doc_FFR]

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/media/F5%20weekly%20winners/xabieralbizuponce%20entry.jpg
This is my current favorite.
I don't ask for much, but a windshield IS A MUST.

[xabier]

I have other views and the rear is in progress ;) but i will show you some of them or maybe the rear.


About the part above the side vents, I don´t know if it is seen clearly on the sketch, I think it will be better seen in the render i am working on, it is suposed to be tha same piece it is just a sharp edge that goes from the back to the side and joins the edge that comes from the air vent, I don't know if I explained myself...
About the " Camel hump headrests" I have changed that part in order to make a targa version more easily, it is quite similar but the upper part changes slightly...
Thank you very much! Hope you all like it and stay tuned for the render!

[Oppenheimer]

About the part above the side vents, I don´t know if it is seen clearly on the sketch, I think it will be better seen in the render i am working on, it is suposed to be tha same piece it is just a sharp edge that goes from the back to the side and joins the edge that comes from the air vent, I don't know if I explained myself...


Yeah, I can see that in the rendering. The body line that starts above the taillight intersects the lines from the rear vent, they end in a distinct 'arrow head' shape, that happens to end on the door. Its cool, but that one spot keeps pulling my eye away from the rest of the car to that one spot. Was wondering if a change here could address that, without taking away from the design. Maybe rounded more, maybe squared off. Then again, maybe its just me.

[0100]

xabier, really have nothing I don't like about your design. LOVE IT, and if FF had this car for sale I would buy. Can't wait to see different angles.

Two things, I guess.

The front bumper lower lip, looks almost a tad higher than the side skirts. Not talking about the middle I know that is the design and like it, talking about the lower sides of the front bumper, look just a tad higher than the side skirts. I think it's just because I am so use to seeing cars, where the front lip is lower than the side skirts. Maybe come out with a track option front lip spoiler/splitter, or make the entire front bumper a little lower.

An exhaust design like the Mclaren MP4-12C where it exits high would look cool, make the air flow cleaner, and make the rear lower spoiler more effective.

That said don't go changing your design for me. You obviously know what you are doing. Sometimes too many chiefs can....

The car looks great and functional at the same time. No worried about front brake cooling on this car.

[Vman7]

I have other views and the rear is in progress ;) but i will show you some of them or maybe the rear.


About the part above the side vents, I don´t know if it is seen clearly on the sketch, I think it will be better seen in the render i am working on, it is suposed to be tha same piece it is just a sharp edge that goes from the back to the side and joins the edge that comes from the air vent, I don't know if I explained myself...
About the " Camel hump headrests" I have changed that part in order to make a targa version more easily, it is quite similar but the upper part changes slightly...
Thank you very much! Hope you all like it and stay tuned for the render!

xabier, congrats on your weekly win:) I look forward to seeing your other renderings.

David

[Benji]

Xabier's design is still (IMHO) the best looking, most appropriate design out of ALL of the ones we have seen so far.

Hands down a clear winner (so far).

As for looking a bit Pontiac Solstice, is that a bad thing? Again I think Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky/Toyota MR-S are bang on for what I hope is where this kit is headed. It's a crying shame that the Sol/Sky was never sold in Europe.

[keys2heaven]

Xabier's design is still (IMHO) the best looking, most appropriate design out of ALL of the ones we have seen so far.

Hands down a clear winner (so far).

As for looking a bit Pontiac Solstice, is that a bad thing? Again I think Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky/Toyota MR-S are bang on for what I hope is where this kit is headed. It's a crying shame that the Sol/Sky was never sold in Europe.

I was going to say that I liked the size and shape of his humps compared to the Solstice, but it wouldn't sound right.

Oh, crap....

[Olimk2]

Actually, the Sky is sold in Europe, it's the OPEL GT here! It replace a LOTUS Elise derivate...both sold poorly...
http://copenclub.net/images/upload/scarphesse/opel-gt-1big_154.jpg

[Doc_FFR]

I have other views and the rear is in progress ;) but i will show you some of them or maybe the rear.
Please, show us your rear. ;)

[Gollum]

Some of you guys are pretty worried about the short rear overhang that's been kind of common in the designs we've seen, but I think as long as the rear end curves a bit, instead of being flat across it'll be fine. Meaning, you can end the rear panel just a few inches shy from the tire on the sides, but "pull" the body back in order to cover the transmission nicely. Done right it'll look nice and smooth, and give that nice and tight back end look most are going for.

[Olimk2]

Exactly!

[Cooluser23]

I came across these videos yesterday that might be insightful to us aspiring car designers. Frank Stephenson goes over the styling details he incorporated into the new McLaren MP4-12C. I like his quote at the end (I'm paraphrasing here): "The car is optimized with engineering principles. I think that is the secret to a timeless design. Animals don't change every year. They've evolved over hundreds of thousands of years and have reached optimal shapes"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgiBh5ekHOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyN0A_jTkI0

Thank you for posting this. The Mp4-12c is one of my favorite car designs as of late. It is a small compact car with a minimalistic design. - I wish the 818 would borrow heavily from Stephenson's McLaren designs. (btw. he's also the guy responsible for the new MINI Cooper that came out in '01)

[keys2heaven]

I Googled Xabier's name and found this tidbit from ANFIA:


ANFIA Car Coachbuilders Group Chairmanship Prize
awarded to Xabier Albizu Ponce as “The Youngest Designer” among competitors selected (17).

This was from 2008 when he was 17. I am truly amazed at such talent from a young man. Folks, we might be witnessing the next world class car designer in action.

[xabier]

I Googled Xabier's name and found this tidbit from ANFIA:



This was from 2008 when he was 17. I am truly amazed at such talent from a young man. Folks, we might be witnessing the next world class car designer in action.

Well yes, that was my first prize and it was fantastic that my work was taken into account when just being 17 years old. Until now I have received some more design prizes and hope I have the opportunity to win more... ;)

[BrandonDrums]

Well yes, that was my first prize and it was fantastic that my work was taken into account when just being 17 years old. Until now I have received some more design prizes and hope I have the opportunity to win more... ;)

We'll you've got my support man! Many kudos to you.

[crackedcornish]

I'd like to see this car with it's stingray vibe
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z275/keys2heaven/Form_R2.jpg

mixed with the side scoops of this very cool looking spyder
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/b51448e6.jpg

[keys2heaven]

Xabier:

Can't wait to see your rendering of the concept! I like the fact that you've included some C---a qualities in the front grill.

[Benji]

Actually, the Sky is sold in Europe, it's the OPEL GT here! It replace a LOTUS Elise derivate...both sold poorly...
http://copenclub.net/images/upload/scarphesse/opel-gt-1big_154.jpg

Ah interesting, I never knew that. I would hazard a guess it's for that very reason why the Vauxhall brand never brought it into the UK in case it impacted on sales for VX220 which I am guessing is the same Lotus Elise derivative you were referring to.

I'm surprised I haven't seen any Opel GT's imported into the UK from Europe as well.

[Olimk2]

too expensive to make it rhd certainly...

[olpro]

I see some of the guys are making clay models and thought I would give some input. I have clay experience as well as having watched some really talented modelers work on everything from little models to full size.

The thing with making clay models is that shortcuts never save time. A proper armature and modeling platform save time overall, and give good results.
Good tools are important. I think they are available through Chavant. The tools you see at the local art store suck but sometimes can be sharpened up to work better.
Always use the biggest stiffest spline or steel you can get on a surface. Wimpy, too-flexible steels are no good. Your hands will get the hang of using a steel or spline to model a surface.
Build the surfaces individually, then do the intersections.
You can work with both hot and cold clay.
Drag templates can be made for certain sections and will save much time in the long run. Use hot clay and put on little sections at a time. Don’t try to do the whole surface at once. Use steel tapes to run the template along.
If you run into foam and have to cut it, take tremendous care to keep the foam dust out of the clay.
I would suggest 1/10th scale for a typical car model. You can get wheels and tires from the hobby shop and it is a good size. Don’t forget to flatten the tires a little.
A plastic bag can be slicked on to the surface with a little water from a spray bottle, then smeared with baby oil to read highlites.
If you just want to visualize 3D shapes, you can carve little foam study models fast and easy.
A decent layout drawing will help tremendously. It is fast to draw, slow to model.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s107/aflo41/IRSpg12copy.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s107/aflo41/IRSpg12_0001copy.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s107/aflo41/IRSpg12_0002copy.jpg

[xabier]

Hi guys! Here you have the first sketch of the rear, it is not very exact and many things may be changed before the final entry, for example, depending on your comments and tips. I hope you like it! :)

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/sketch-rear.jpg

[blueafro]

Ah interesting, I never knew that. I would hazard a guess it's for that very reason why the Vauxhall brand never brought it into the UK in case it impacted on sales for VX220 which I am guessing is the same Lotus Elise derivative you were referring to.

The Opel GT replaced the Opel Speedster (mainland label for the Vauxhall VX220) on the continent when the Speedster/VX220 was discontinued. They were never produced or sold concurrently.

[keys2heaven]

Please, show us your rear. ;)

Here ya go. Xabier just posted this on GRM. NICE!

Oh, just noticed the Targa. Just freakin' wicked.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z275/keys2heaven/sketch-rear.jpg

[riptide motorsport]

I do not envy you designers, everything i see is so AWESOME. This is going to be tough decision, I'd say there will be more than 3 or 4 deserving canidates......Steven

[LiquidPT]

Here ya go. Xabier just posted this on GRM. NICE!

Oh, just noticed the Targa. Just freakin' wicked.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z275/keys2heaven/sketch-rear.jpg

While I think that looks awesome, how much do you want to think about DD? Visibility out the back of that would be... uh... bad. Going back to a couple pics of my car:

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z277/PT_Cuda/Black%20Sun/IMGP3330_edited-1.jpg

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z277/PT_Cuda/Black%20Sun/imgp3311_edited.jpg

I can see straight out the back fine. If I set my mirrors JUST right, I can change lanes with decent confidence. Backing out of a parking spot requires prayer. You absolutely CANNOT see crosstraffic behind, you my wife refuses to drive it cuz it takes too much time to get those side mirrors set PERFECTLY (and if they're not you've go a huge blindspot). And that's with (albeit small) rear quarter windows.

[Oppenheimer]

What is it about the design of the Solstice Coupe that makes it so difficult to see out the back? Not seeing why its so much worse than a 'normal' car, or how that applies to this design? (wouldn't the Solstice convertible, with its camel humps, be a closer comparison?)

Haven't sat in either or even seen them up close to know.

[MikeK]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z275/keys2heaven/sketch-rear.jpg[/QUOTE]

Ok, I really want this car. Congrats on the weekly win Xabier.

[Oppenheimer]

OK, so Xabier has unveiled his, posterior. So to continue his request for comments, WOW! Love the exhaust & diffuser. Love the taillights and the panel they reside upon. I love the lip spoiler. I like how you added the crossbar that would make a Targa more plausible. I like how the curve of the rear 'spoiler' compliments the curve of the top of the front grill.

The only thing I'm not sure about is the louvers. Also, the original front view the humps seemed to taper off more (were more concave, now more convex). Now they seem to form a sort of fastback. I'm thinking it might look better the original way, where the humps would be more 'rollbar cover', less 'fastback'. In that case the louvers probably wouldn't fit (no room).

This is by far my favorite design so far. Would like to see some colored renderings of this design.

It looks like a car, not a kit. Like a car, not a cruise-missle.

[needsans4]

I may get crucified for suggesting this, but I’d love to see a copy of the Lotus Elise. It would be awesome to have a hard top option too. Either way, I think this new car idea is pretty sweet, looking forward to seeing new designs! I also like the sketch that won week 2, keep up the good work.

[JRL]

What is it about the design of the Solstice Coupe that makes it so difficult to see out the back? Not seeing why its so much worse than a 'normal' car, or how that applies to this design? (wouldn't the Solstice convertible, with its camel humps, be a closer comparison?)

Haven't sat in either or even seen them up close to know.

Very large "C" pillars - Smallish rear glass.

[labmonkee]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z275/keys2heaven/sketch-rear.jpg

Ok, I really want this car. Congrats on the weekly win Xabier.[/QUOTE]

+ 1
I really love it. I agree with Jim comments re: louvers and the front views less prominent 'humps'. However you absolutely nailed the waist line, tail-lights and rear diffuser. also dig the idea of the door handle integrated with the start of the side intake, and its angular nature. Well done Xabier!!

P.s. re: rear visibility - I don't think many people will have the need to look back in this missile :)

[LiquidPT]

I was afraid my pics wouldn't be really clear. One thing that you need to notice that most of the rear quarter glass is actually black. There's only about a 4" triangle in the middle that's "usable" (and then I can't actually see over my left shoudler anyways). So, essentially, think of everthing behind the door otherthan the semicircular rear glass as being solid. REALLY big c-pillars.

I had assumed from the sketch that the rear quarter vents would essentially be solid as well. I'm realizing now this isn't a fast back, but a dual hump. You can look at the sketch and think I might think it was a coupe fastback though... Anyways, looks like you'd only be able to see down the tunnel between the humps. The humps on the solstice vert aren't nearly this pronounced (high or long) and there isn't the extra roll bar. So, (with the top down at least) you can look over your shoulder on the outside of the drivers side hump, and actually look aver the passenger side one.

Hope that helps. Love the look of it. Just wanted to add a bit of practical speak from experience.

[xabier]

Hi guys,

Well, you have already seen the rear design (I uploaded it here too but I don´t know why it didn´t appear...)
I have a couple of questions for you, what do you mean when you say "louvers"? I am spanish so you know english is not my mother language, if someone could explain me what are the louvers.. haha ;)

And well, this is just a preliminary sketch where many things need to be taken into account, in this view is true that the humps or rollbar is higher than in the front view so this could be fitted later on (I think this was said on a recent comment), another thing I wanted to say is that the lights are those used in te FF GTM for that of cost reducing, and I suppose that what LiquidPT said of the rear visivility could be fitted by making the humps a bit smaller

Again, thank you very much for all your comments!

[Rotr8]

I wouldn't change the rear cpillar humps at all if anything I would modify your front view to reflect what you have designed in the rear view.
Louvers are the vents/reverse ducts you drew in the c pillar area,

[Olimk2]

Los "louvers" son las aperturas detras de las ventanas laterales ...Tus desenos son muy buenos tio!
Ok so i would not put those louvers anyway...
As for rear visibility in any case it will be difficult to have a good view through the rear glass, all mid engine cars the same here (except full down soft tops). For CEE approval the rear view test are now very stringent so it will be a matter of putting rear view mirrors big enough and well placed...

[xabier]

Okay so the louvers are the 3 vents on the humps? Thats allright then
You are right, I did the rear this way because the front rendering I am working on has the rollbars and humps this way, so I changed that on the front view. ;)

[bromikl]

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/04/derondafd_06_opt.jpg

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/first-drive-deronda-type-g400/#1469325

What about this?

And maybe offer a jet-fighter canopy over the cockpit as an accessory?

I'm thinking a little less rounded across the front and awesome-huge side intakes just behind the driver.

Personally, I think it's important to have the radiator in the back; as adding tubing and water to get the radiator in the front will add a lot of weight and complexity. Every gallon of water weighs 8.4 lbs.

(If I could draw) I'd try to make the underside flatter, maximize the underside surface area and add a chin spoiler.

[LiquidPT]

I want to be clear: I absolutely love the way it looks and one advantage that this design has overt the Solstice convertible (or Opel GT for the Europeans) is that it look slike it would accomadate a full roll bar.

[fd_colorado]

I have 2 ideas to toss out for the Subaru-engined design. Admittedly, these ideas would require a different chassis layout.

Background -- The problem I see with the current approach is that any new body design will appeal to a somewhat limited audience, no matter how good it is. (Remember the Spyder GT-V8?)

I'll concede that the GTM does have a following but there are good reasons why the well-trodden path is down the road of familiar models and shapes.

Looking at the cost constraints dictates to me some sort of minimalist race replica.

My best idea would be to make something along the lines of the F1 inspired version of the Ariel Atom as shown in the photo below.

http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2008/09/24/01/27/2007_ariel_atom-pic-25942.jpeg

The cool factor would be quite high, imho. The bodywork is simple and you could paint it like your favorite F1 team's car. The bodywork could also be updated or backdated when the car's owner was ready for a change. Think of it as a dynamic model for big kids. We could call it the FF1.

My second idea has relatively similar dimensions of 1800 lbs. and a wheelbase of 90.5". The iconic Porsche 917 would also appeal to the boy modeler in all of us.

http://www.freewebs.com/redlinenewsporsche/Gulf_Porsche_917_1280x1024.jpg

http://www.pierre-menard.com/wp-content/gallery/voitures/porsche-917k-1970.jpg

[Gollum]

I don't really understand the visibility complaints much. I also don't understand how the pontiac solstice could be so terrible.

I've owned or drive every type of Z car there is, and in every case it's just something you get used to. An I'd say those are easier to see out of than some other more popular cars, like the previous generation mitsubishi eclipse.

What makes it really hard to see is in most cars is the height of the rear deck that you're looking over, and how far away you are from it. The closer you are to the rear window then the more you can see out of it. And if those humps are actually built right, then seeing over your shoulder shouldn't be that big of a deal, without compromising the look of the car.

All in all I'm just saying there's some cars out there with pretty bad visibility and people still buy them.

[kach22i]

The Prius, Aztex and old CRX all have those little windows under the rear deck lid edge. A window there on a mid-engine car would also allow viewing of the engine.

The old Bora could have used it - I sketched one in as an example.

[Olimk2]

Park sensors are cheap today...

[kach22i]

Park sensors are cheap today...

Rear view camera with night vision might be an option for the techies.

[kach22i]

The iconic Porsche 917 would also appeal to the boy modeler in all of us.
Great thought, but it's been done over and over, plus you would lose several generations of kit builders.

Maybe a Rolex Grand-Am (Daytona Prototype) replica modified for the street?
http://www.planetlemans.com/2008/01/25/michael-shank-racing-on-rolex-24-pole/
http://www.planetlemans.com/wp-content/themes/tma/images/uploads/2008/01/470_michaelshankracing_grandam.jpg

http://blog.autoshopper.com/articles/1036/Big-Changes-In-2012-For-Rolex-Grand-Am-Series/
http://blog.autoshopper.com/photos/newdp1.jpg

[Olimk2]

Gallileo reminds us the world is not flat, lol! There's a bunch of road/race cars in uk, Radical, new catheram...

[olpro]

I have read some comments about using the Subaru windshield for this vehicle. As one post pointed out, many donors would not have good glass - if it was intact, it might be dull and scratched.
The main problem is the size and shape of the Subaru ws. The corners are all sharp which doesn’t lend itself to many configurations.
I am working on a Suburu powered project (VW chassis) and looked into other options for it. The best I could find was the Chevy Aveo ws which is smaller and has round corners. Based on a rough measurement in a parking lot, it is about 52” wide at the base (3” less than the Subaru), 45” wide at the top (1.5” less than Subaru) and about the same length from base to top center. It has a flatish shape so can be laid back more than the production angle without the c-line looking too crowned.
Whatever windshield is finally picked up, the fiberglass perimeter would pick up not only the mounting flanges but the wiper-cowl area – so production wiper components could easily be used.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s107/aflo41/800px-2nd_Chevrolet_Aveo_sedan.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s107/aflo41/AveoWS.jpg

[Olimk2]

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/sketch-rear.jpg

Xabier, if you wish to make small changes, the exhaust can't be there, the gear box is in already! Could be nice to define your split lines for hood/trunk etc...Big wheels are nice but seems to ride on '20 at least. Don't forget our big euro licence plates as well!
Don't try to modify too much you already get it!

[kach22i]

Don't forget our big euro licence plates as well!

That is a sticky problem at times. On my design I did away with Porsche 911 style rubber bump pads in favor of a higher cleaner rear location.

The front plate is the worst offender to the eyes. I was looking at some 718-RSK/RS-60 cars on the Internet yesterday. Very silly how the front Euro plate makes them look.

[Olimk2]

OH yes! at least in UK thy are allowed to stick adhesive ones on the body.

[cozmacozmy]

I haven't read all 11 pages yet and only saw 1 reference to a Lancia Stratos so far. Why not get into the road/off road rally car racing. A Stratos would be the cats meow.

With Subaru's being famous for rally cars, stepping into a Stratos body with WRX running gear would be killer on the rally circuit.

http://www.stratossupersite.com/history.htm

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMQypYLjXab-Lw2pVsEUPXl-b_ABmT6uucEG1NOkPjyL-tfAoO&t=1

http://www.comp.co.uk/gallery/pics/HAWK%20LANCIA%20Stratos%20REPLICA%20STR%2015.JPG

http://i.cr3ation.co.uk/dl/s1/bmp/stratos2.bmp


Some one else is trying to resurrect the Stratos name and look...

http://www.motorward.com/wp-content/images/2010/08/new-stratos-1.jpg


http://www.icars.sg/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/New-Lancia-Stratos-1.jpg

http://www.motorward.com/wp-content/images/2010/08/new-stratos-1.jpg

http://www.autoonlines.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/new-lancia-stratos-web.jpg

[crobin4]

I haven't read all 11 pages yet and only saw 1 reference to a Lancia Stratos so far. Why not get into the road/off road rally car racing. A Stratos would be the cats meow.

With Subaru's being famous for rally cars, stepping into a Stratos body with WRX running gear would be killer on the rally circuit.

http://www.stratossupersite.com/history.htm

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMQypYLjXab-Lw2pVsEUPXl-b_ABmT6uucEG1NOkPjyL-tfAoO&t=1

http://www.comp.co.uk/gallery/pics/HAWK%20LANCIA%20Stratos%20REPLICA%20STR%2015.JPG

http://i.cr3ation.co.uk/dl/s1/bmp/stratos2.bmp


Some one else is trying to resurrect the Stratos name and look...

http://www.motorward.com/wp-content/images/2010/08/new-stratos-1.jpg


http://www.icars.sg/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/New-Lancia-Stratos-1.jpg

http://www.motorward.com/wp-content/images/2010/08/new-stratos-1.jpg

http://www.autoonlines.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/new-lancia-stratos-web.jpg

Ummm.... because a modern AWD rally car would slaughter any Stratos wanna be, irregardless who built it.
Not to be derogatory, The Stratos and Ford Escorts were amazing for there day. Then Audi......

[cozmacozmy]

Ummm.... because a modern AWD rally car would slaughter any Stratos wanna be, irregardless who built it.
Not to be derogatory, The Stratos and Ford Escorts were amazing for there day. Then Audi......

...OK

[crobin4]

...OK

Sorry, didn't mean to sound mean. Didn't intend it to be mean either. This is an open discussion, I should have kept my "mouth" shut or taken a different approach.
I do like the logic you used. I just think it wouldn't be competitive in rally, if you were allowed to run it. Targa Newfoundland would however be an entirely different story.....

[Jammin]

I am really liking this car design. I cannot believe I am going to say this, but it needs a wing

[Dave Smith]

One of my all-time favorite cars growing up was the Lancia, but I'm not a judge...

[crobin4]

I am really liking this car design. I cannot believe I am going to say this, but it needs a wing

Yep, same here. I'm looking/hpoing for some built in aero like the GTM , with optional splitter and wing to increase the downforce.

[Oppenheimer]

One of my all-time favorite cars growing up was the Lancia, but I'm not a judge...

But at least one of the judges _is_ on your payroll!

Always liked the Lancia too, and the whole Group B look. Sports cars that were fast, tough, and could be driven hard on all types of roads.

[crobin4]

Sports cars that were fast, tough, and could be driven hard on all types of roads.

That's exactly what got me into Subarus to start with.:D

[PhyrraM]

Warning....inner geek aproaching.....

My first and one of the most memerable exposures to rally was an old Choose Your Own Adventure book I read as a kid. It was loosely based on the Safari Rally in Africa and your first choice was to choose between the Lancia and a Saab. I always chose the Lancia, and have been fascinated with it ever since.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5055/5533175983_b4c160e7a1.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5533175983/)

While searching for the above picture to post here, I found out that the series has been recently re-released. This particular title now apparently has new vehicles to choose from:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5216/5533176011_0dacf58d29.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5533176011/)


Now, all that being said, I don't want the FFR 818 to be a Stratos replica. To me, a Stratos replica would need to be a very short 85" wheelbase (not 95"), mid-engined V6. Top of my head would be a Mazda KL series or possibly a Ford Duratec25.

[Dave Smith]

Jim may be on the payroll, but he is a visionary who indeed marches to the tune of a very different drummer. When my brother left FFR way back in 2001 Jim became the person who was charged with new products. Truth is that he has really directed the development of so much at FFR. He sheparded the design and structure of the Challenge Series, The Hot Rod and GTM were both his babies 100% and he is simply the most talented R&D engineer I've ever met. I cant buy his vote.

That being said, I LOVE the tie in between the type of car and pure driving that Subie guys are doing in line with the Startos heritage and vibe. Wait til we get to the trophy truck...

Dave

[Oppenheimer]

Jim may be on the payroll, but he is a visionary who indeed marches to the tune of a very different drummer. When my brother left FFR way back in 2001 Jim became the person who was charged with new products. Truth is that he has really directed the development of so much at FFR. He sheparded the design and structure of the Challenge Series, The Hot Rod and GTM were both his babies 100% and he is simply the most talented R&D engineer I've ever met. I cant buy his vote.

That being said, I LOVE the tie in between the type of car and pure driving that Subie guys are doing in line with the Startos heritage and vibe. Wait til we get to the trophy truck...

Dave

Its so great that such a talent is working for an org that appreciates his efforts and is willing to grant him the freedom to let his ideas flourish. That the same org is willing to let the world in on the next design is pretty cool, too.

You mentioned this 'truck' project twice. You also hinted that the 818 is going to be more than we know right now (potential different powerplants, etc). That seems like a lot of stuff to take on at once. Don't know how you guys are doing it.

[cozmacozmy]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound mean. Didn't intend it to be mean either. This is an open discussion, I should have kept my "mouth" shut or taken a different approach.
I do like the logic you used. I just think it wouldn't be competitive in rally, if you were allowed to run it. Targa Newfoundland would however be an entirely different story.....

No fret Chris.

With the Cobra, Daytona, and challenger series you have road racing/autocross all set. With the roadster you have the hot rodders all set. With the GTM you have the euro super car all set, why not do a rally car? I'm not much into rally right now, but my brother-in-law and his friends are and they all drive Subaru cars. With the cheaper price of starting with a Subaru, it would help some of us less fortunate ones to get into a FFR car. From what I understand the Lancia Stratos was a top winner for many years.

[PhyrraM]

Jim may be on the payroll, but he is a visionary who indeed marches to the tune of a very different drummer. .....he has really directed the development of so much at FFR. He sheparded the design and structure of the Challenge Series, The Hot Rod and GTM were both his babies 100% and he is simply the most talented R&D engineer I've ever met. I cant buy his vote.

Dave

And that is why it really won't matter *much* how this car looks, or if it has a top or not. It WILL sell on it's merits and pedigree. A top will add to sales, of course, but I can't see it being a flop in any version of reality.

And no Trophy truck until this one is in the bag.....:mad: Waiting this year is gonna be painful enough, withut another project slowing you folks down. :p

[Oppenheimer]

No fret Chris.

With the Cobra, Daytona, and challenger series you have road racing/autocross all set. With the roadster you have the hot rodders all set. With the GTM you have the euro super car all set, why not do a rally car? I'm not much into rally right now, but my brother-in-law and his friends are and they all drive Subaru cars. With the cheaper price of starting with a Subaru, it would help some of us less fortunate ones to get into a FFR car. From what I understand the Lancia Stratos was a top winner for many years.

Have you seen this submission? Its got the Group B theme going strong. It seems like most are excited about designs that are more 'sports car', like the Xabier, but Dave has said multiple bodies is a possibility. Perhaps FFR will build the car with one body style now, and later offer a very different option, such as this.

[PhyrraM]

I like that Group B hatchback too. The old Metro 6r4 was also one of my closet favorites.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5260/5533878462_19081da4f2.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5533878462/)


I still think the Roadster/Convertible should be the first out the gate.

[GUNS]

Something like this with 2 seats would be amazing!


http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x219/trinisuprazee/BAC-Mono-FT1.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x219/trinisuprazee/bac-mono.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x219/trinisuprazee/bac-mono-4.jpg

[98SGM]

1019

Hey guys, just seeing what your thoughts were on my sketch. I'm having a hard time making front and rear views for it but the basic idea is a short Stingray like front end with a split grill GT40 like lower part/bumper. The side is suppose to resemble a Dagger gt with the new Porsche 918 side scoops but it didn't translate "curvy" enough. And lastly I envisioned a 50's Corvette like rear end with TVR Tuscan style lights front and rear. I cant draw worth a darn so I'm working on a clay model for it but thought I would get some opinions. So let me have it the good, bad, and ugly. Oh, and this contest rocks! :cool:

[PhyrraM]

Nobody has put these together yet, so I will.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5100/5534152740_932faafbf9.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5534152740/)
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5134/5534152770_d70ee8e4ed.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5534152770/)

My comments on the rear:
Again, very nicely done. Love the simple, easy to produce (possibly off-the-shelf) tailights. The curve of the back panel perfectly compliments the one on the front face. Like the diffuser, but as mentioned, the transmission and shift linkage is going to be where you currently have the exhaust.

I think the rear vents would be better placed on the flatter section between the camel humps. Also, this is touchy but worth investigating, make the section between the tailights a partial vent. Might not work out though.

I like the targa conversion, but I'd need to see more exact detail on how the window/targa bar/camel hump interface looks. Also I wonder what shapes in that area can be convincably produced in fiberglass.

Again, overall an excellent presentation. I say your almost ready for detailed engineering/getting ready for production work. IMHO, it's that good.


I just remembered where else I've seen that nose curve. :cool:

Old Triumphs.

And that's a wicked good thing to me. Even though I'm an MG man, old British roadsters were the essential cheap, but horribly fun to drive cars. The Miata, Elise, X1/9, MR2, and a host of others owe thier exsistance to the British Roadster.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5171/5534168572_e79624e027.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5534168572/)
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5014/5533586631_28aa7c294f.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5533586631/)

[PhyrraM]

For those designers that are trying to keep an eye on the proposed FFR budget I figured I'd post the factory exhaust for reference.

The factory exhaust leaves the turbosharger on the right side of the car and travels low and tight to the transmission. Some early models, like the first pic, are one piece until 12" behind the FFR 818's rear bumper. These would obviously need to be cut and re-routed. Likely to a muffler. US models, and possibly others, already have a bolted flange (second pic) in a good spot to install an exhaust.

If course it's possible to use a new exhaust complete from the turbo. At cost though. As always, just info for the designer to consider.

The pics should be fairly self explainitory. Hopefully this helps those trying to 'reuse WRX parts'.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5533615995_32f489ef59.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5533615995/)
This is a slightly older than '02 motor, but there are no reals changes to be concerned with. This is also the 5 speed trans. The perspective is a bit off, but the trans is centered in the car, so the exhaust is 8"-12" off center at the catylitic convertor. You can also see that the intercooler is not directly over the engine. There is room for a clever design to route air down-n-out or up-n-out the intercooler.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5533614607_a31f489a0c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5533614607/)
Top is a North American WRX, bottom is like the one in the above pic.

[Dave Smith]

98SGM Make sure you submit toi the GRM contest as I think they are still just under 50 submissions. I like curves always.

Opp: No doubt there is alot on the horizon, but you can count on us to do one thing at a time, well, maybe two... The truck project will happen, but we all decided to accelearat the 818 first and get it rockin.

[Silvertop]

I’ve been lurking about on FFR’s website (and other kitcar websites) for at least a half-dozen years now, looking for the perfect kit-car retirement project for me. Though I’ve always loved the AC C****a (I was a teenager when the originals were being marketed), my personal preference in sports cars always leaned toward rear- and mid-engined small block types. But because I admire FFR’s donor-car concept, plus their leadership position atop the kit-car universe, I have found myself waffling back and forth between the FFR Roadster and other reputable makers’ examples of 550 Spyder and Speedster replicas.

The new 818 project is a game-changer, fitting right into the niche that tickles my fancy, and the projected timing of its introduction means that it will probably become available precisely when I need it to. Here’s hoping the final design includes some kind of a removable roof (stowable targa-top preferred) and a window system capable of keeping the weather on the outside of the car.

I’m going to get in line with other forum contributors and express my admiration for young Xabier’s design concept. That car is just plain sexy. It reminds me a bit (at the nose) of the legendary Aston Martin DB5, and its overall shape suggests Ferrari Dino or any number of Porsches (904, 918), but at the end of the day it doesn’t really look like anything but itself.

I’ll take mine in white, silver, or champagne.

[LiquidPT]

I don't really understand the visibility complaints much. I also don't understand how the pontiac solstice could be so terrible.

I'm taking the Sol out today, so I'll take video looking around the cabin.

[LiquidPT]

Rear view camera with night vision might be an option for the techies.

This is what I plan on adding... It'll increase my rearward visibility, but not sure it'll help with the 3/4 views that are completely blocked now.

[FFRWRX]

I’m going to.....express my admiration for young Xabier’s design concept....but at the end of the day it doesn’t really look like anything but itself.



Funny thing is, when I showed it to someone else the comment was "all he did was remove the Lotus logo!". Obviously there are those that think it does very strongly resemble something else.

For me, I think it looks excellent.

[Benji]

Funny thing is, when I showed it to someone else the comment was "all he did was remove the Lotus logo!". Obviously there are those that think it does very strongly resemble something else.

This would have been quietly running through my brain if someone had said that to me:

http://www.rollonfriday.com/Images/The%20Linsider/Images/fish%20slap.gif

I agree, without seeing any of the other entries, Xabier is the best and apart from the comment about the exhaust placement, I like the rear view EXACTLY the way it is.

[keys2heaven]

Car designs aren't supposed to make us cry, are they?

[Pierre-Alexandre]

Hi guys! Here you have the first sketch of the rear, it is not very exact and many things may be changed before the final entry, for example, depending on your comments and tips. I hope you like it! :)

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/sketch-rear.jpg

I really love this rear end. And I think that the rear of the car must be the best look part of this car,cauz it's the one that other drivers will see the most. :P

[BrandonDrums]

I really love this rear end. And I think that the rear of the car must be the best look part of this car,cauz it's the one that other drivers will see the most. :P


Umm, this thing is EXACTLY what the dr. ordered. How can we stop the design competition and go ahead and build this design??

I want to see the other entries, but this is so perfect...

[BrandonDrums]

For those designers that are trying to keep an eye on the proposed FFR budget I figured I'd post the factory exhaust for reference.

The factory exhaust leaves the turbosharger on the right side of the car and travels low and tight to the transmission. Some early models, like the first pic, are one piece until 12" behind the FFR 818's rear bumper. These would obviously need to be cut and re-routed. Likely to a muffler. US models, and possibly others, already have a bolted flange (second pic) in a good spot to install an exhaust.

If course it's possible to use a new exhaust complete from the turbo. At cost though. As always, just info for the designer to consider.

The pics should be fairly self explainitory. Hopefully this helps those trying to 'reuse WRX parts'.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5533615995_32f489ef59.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5533615995/)
This is a slightly older than '02 motor, but there are no reals changes to be concerned with. This is also the 5 speed trans. The perspective is a bit off, but the trans is centered in the car, so the exhaust is 8"-12" off center at the catylitic convertor. You can also see that the intercooler is not directly over the engine. There is room for a clever design to route air down-n-out or up-n-out the intercooler.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5533614607_a31f489a0c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5533614607/)
Top is a North American WRX, bottom is like the one in the above pic.

Good post.

Drawing again from my experience with the FFR MKII roadster, the headers are re-used but everything else in the exhaust is ditched for aftermarket piping.

I imagine this kit will require an aftermarket muffler/pipe coming directly from the turbo with the muffler living alongside or above the transmission. Putting the muffler above the transmission might allow for 2 tips on either side of the transmission that swoop down and exit on each side similarly to how the stock down-pipe sits in that picture.

That would allow the dual-tip design Xabier has currently only requiring the left and right tips to be moved outward into the next adjacent diffuser spot.

The challenge with Xabier's design is getting enough air to the oem intercooler spot. The only thing I can think of is to have vent openings on the side of the roll-bar humps scooping air to the IC. The ones that are scooped inward now can be scooped outward instead. However, that's right where the air might start to see a negative pressure at high speeds...


I LOOOOVEE this design, the Targa conversion is crucial.

[PhyrraM]

I think a low pressure zone designed into the rear deck above the intercooler with an effort on sealing to the intercooer, along with smallish side ducts in a high pressure area, and basic cheap hose (or fiberglass ducts if in budget) to carry the higher pressure air under the intercooler would provide a basic, effective and passive intercooler setup.

So the airflow could be:

Side vents > ductwork > high pressure under the intercooler > low pressure over the intercooler > clean air exit behind the passengers on the rear deck.

If done correctly can be at least as effective as the factory WRX/STI hood scoop fed intercooler.

Removing any air from dumping under the car (like traditional hood scoop) seems like it would be good for lift/handling.

[kach22i]

I see some of the guys are making clay models and thought I would give some input.
Great tips, thanks.

Using a foam base is the biggest tip, otherwise the model gets so heavy it cannot support it's self.

I've always done 1"=1'-0" just to keep things simple but finding the right sized wheels has always been a problem. Attaching them without a plywood base is also an issue, wish I knew that trick decades ago. One of my models uses plastic caster wheels, which looks good from the sides but any other angle is a funky problem.

1. The soft white clay is easily reworkable, which is great if you want to take a month to play with it. However with time it gets all furry with dust.

2. Red clay dries nice and hard and will shatter when your cat jumps off the shelf and knocks it to the floor. I think you can paint it, but I never have.

3. The gray clay gives me a headache, but is workable for at least a week and does not collect dust bunnies afterwards.

olpro, what kind of clay is best, and why?

Where can we buy it from?

[BrandonDrums]

I think a low pressure zone designed into the rear deck above the intercooler with an effort on sealing to the intercooer, along with smallish side ducts in a high pressure area, and basic cheap hose (or fiberglass ducts if in budget) to carry the higher pressure air under the intercooler would provide a basic, effective and passive intercooler setup.

So the airflow could be:

Side vents > ductwork > high pressure under the intercooler > low pressure over the intercooler > clean air exit behind the passengers on the rear deck.

If done correctly can be at least as effective as the factory WRX/STI hood scoop fed intercooler.

Removing any air from dumping under the car (like traditional hood scoop) seems like it would be good for lift/handling.

That sounds awesome. I thought about that but with the y-pipe being under the top-mount ic you wouldn't get much room to seal the ductwork around it. Plus, depending on the room in the sides of the engine bay, having such a duct comes pretty close to where the exhaust will bolt up to the turbo.

But you did say smallish ducts so there is some room for like drier exhaust hose for example or nicely formed plastic/fiberglass stuff. I'd just be worried it wouldn't be quite enough flow at autocross speeds to really move some air.

I think you're on to something here. That's the type of fixin' that would make this car a showstopper for it's tech just as much as it will be for price/looks/speed :-p

[Kasmodean]

I am not overly worried about air flow into the rear of the car for the IC. There is always the option to water-air intercooler, and cooling the water up front. Obviously not having to do this would better though, if there is a simple solution to get the required airflow. Creating and installing a complex air tight ducting system in a very tight confined space that will be a hot environment won't be cheap or easy. Plus then you have to worry about leaks in the ducting.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Funny thing is, when I showed it to someone else the comment was "all he did was remove the Lotus logo!". Obviously there are those that think it does very strongly resemble something else.

I can understand that comment when looking at the rear 3/4 view.

http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Lotus/2010_Lotus-Exige_S_Exterior_Image-01-1280.jpg

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/sketch-rear.jpg

Not so from the front. Whether it has a passing resemblance to something else or not--- I really like it!

Jeff

[PhyrraM]

I am not overly worried about air flow into the rear of the car for the IC. There is always the option to water-air intercooler, and cooling the water up front. Obviously not having to do this would better though, if there is a simple solution to get the required airflow. Creating and installing a complex air tight ducting system in a very tight confined space that will be a hot environment won't be cheap or easy. Plus then you have to worry about leaks in the ducting.

That's what's nice about finding/designing a low pressure zone into the rear deck. The low pressure would suck air out automatically, making it work without any complex ducting. Just a simple duct to provide fresh air to the general area under the intercooler.

The very first turbo EJ20 motors used factory air-to-water intercoolers. But I see that as adding more cost and weight than a simply engineered solution using OEM parts. Every fabricated part, will reduce the available budget for something else 'more important'.

[olpro]

Great tips, thanks.

Using a foam base is the biggest tip, otherwise the model gets so heavy it cannot support it's self.

I've always done 1"=1'-0" just to keep things simple but finding the right sized wheels has always been a problem. Attaching them without a plywood base is also an issue, wish I knew that trick decades ago. One of my models uses plastic caster wheels, which looks good from the sides but any other angle is a funky problem.

1. The soft white clay is easily reworkable, which is great if you want to take a month to play with it. However with time it gets all furry with dust.

2. Red clay dries nice and hard and will shatter when your cat jumps off the shelf and knocks it to the floor. I think you can paint it, but I never have.

3. The gray clay gives me a headache, but is workable for at least a week and does not collect dust bunnies afterwards.

olpro, what kind of clay is best, and why?

Where can we buy it from?

Chavant is the source used by car studios all over the world. The hard industrial clay is what you use. Any kind of soft clay is NOT good to get decent surfaces. Chavant also has clay tools and other products.
http://www.chavant.com/new_site/index.htm
You don't actually attach the wheels to the model. Just set them in place in the wheel well. The wood model stanchions (as shown on my drawing) support the model and can be raised slightly with shims to show different ride height conditions. Ideally you will have to turn some wood wheels but RC car wheels could be a decent stand in. For a temp wheel, use photos attached to cardboard.
If you can't get thick enough foam to carve the armature, you can glue thinner pieces together with Liquid Nails. Carve the foam as close to the final shape as possible, leaving 1/2" to 1" for clay. Shellac the armature for better clay adhesion.

[keys2heaven]

Uploaded by user Tune_K on GRM.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z275/keys2heaven/TuneKoshy_F5Falcon_17MAR11_RGB1d-1.jpg

[kach22i]

Chavant is the source used by car studios all over the world.
Thank you olpro.

About the really nice designs being posted; the front mounted radiator seems to be adding a visual slight of hand keeping the viewer guessing whether it is a front engine or mid-engine design. I'm not sure this will always be the case, but I've seen it now at least three times in a row. Not that it is a bad thing, after all one of the most classic examples of this phenomena is the Lamborghini Miura, and it's a beauty.

[riptide motorsport]

ffFaalcon is nice too.........everythingv is so good!!

[Flashburn]

Uploaded by user Tune_K on GRM.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z275/keys2heaven/TuneKoshy_F5Falcon_17MAR11_RGB1d-1.jpg

Gorgeous

[BrandonDrums]

Uploaded by user Tune_K on GRM.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z275/keys2heaven/TuneKoshy_F5Falcon_17MAR11_RGB1d-1.jpg

We have a real competition now!

[PhyrraM]

After seeing a lot of really good submissions, it has become clear to me that the challenge is not for the designers.

The challenge is squarely on FFRs shoulders to:
a) Not lose the flavor of the design in translation to something mass producible.
b) When making that translation, bury all traces of "kit car" and making it look professional, even up close.

One big advantage of doing a replica, such as the Roadster, is customers are only expecting 1960s levels of detail and fit and finish.
I'm hoping that FFR can push that to the late '80s to early '90s level of details on the 818.

[Olimk2]

To not loose the original flavor, you have to choose something that doesn't need to be reworked 80%
Xabier's car is a good exemple of what's can be done with minor mods (exhaust...)

[riptide motorsport]

FFR's GTM does not scream kit car, I suspect this won't either....................................Steven

[Stavros]

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/1791/diego2a.jpg

I had a busy few weeks prepping a car for the 24 hours of Lemons, but I managed to pull myself away for a few hours today to work more on the profile render I had posted a few weeks back on the GRM forum. I tried to keep this one looking like a real car, with windshield and ground clearance, and legal height lighting. The rims in the renders are 18 in size with 35 aspect tires. I tried to push the diameter as high as possible to accommodate the bling crowd and to properly size the arches. The rest of the sane people should be able to easily fit some 17s with 45 profile tires, 16s may be a bit small for a modern looking car IMHO. I threw in a teaser napkin sketch of the rear, but it will be a few weeks until I get them both digitally airbrushed and fleshed out.

The tricky part about designing for this contest is getting a design to fit the template parameters laid out by FFR so far. We have seen some really cool concepts posted here to the forum, but looking at a lot of them, they are still stuck in concept sketch land with 24" wheels, rubber band tires, bodywork digging into the ground, and disregard for reality as well as federal and state laws. It would be interesting to see a "production version" rendering of some of these concepts.

[Stavros]

After seeing a lot of really good submissions, it has become clear to me that the challenge is not for the designers.

The challenge is squarely on FFRs shoulders to:
a) Not lose the flavor of the design in translation to something mass producible.
b) When making that translation, bury all traces of "kit car" and making it look professional, even up close.


I think it should rest on the designers to create designs that are mass producible, and wont need translation by FFR. If a high-fantasy design wins, I have a feeling a lot of customers are going to feel bait-and-switched after the whole thing has to get watered down to become a usable car.

[olpro]

It always comes down to DESIGN SELECTION. Almost every auto company has good designers but not everyone has good design selection, which is more important in producing great cars.
The judging panel (which should be announced soon) may give awards to any design they like but the company is not obligated to work from those award winner(s).
The worst case is if it tries the deadly combination.. grabbing a side from one entry, a front from another, etc.
"A camel is a horse designed by a committee"

[BrandonDrums]

Ooh, Porsche 918 production confirmed!

http://jalopnik.com/#!5783912/the-porsche-918-spyder-is-now-a-plug+in-hybrid-reality

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2011/03/porsche_918_spyder_rendered_03.jpg

Stavros' design is pretty great!

[LS MAN]

I vote for this guy
http://www.local-motors.com/vprofile.php?pageNum=0&u=263

http://i571.photobucket.com/albums/ss155/twh2407/pd3111.jpg

[FFRWRX]

I had a busy few weeks prepping a car for the 24 hours of Lemons...We have seen some really cool concepts posted here to the forum...

I really like your design! The thing I'm not sure about is the rocker panel/scoop. Hard to see exactly what it looks like but the first thing I thought of is that it is going to be a dirt trap; maybe not a big deal.

Rick

[kach22i]

I vote for this guy
http://www.local-motors.com/vprofile.php?pageNum=0&u=263
I remember seeing that site about a year ago, it's really grown. A lot of really cool stuff in there now.

http://www.local-motors.com/portfolios.php

Here is another one to get lost in:
http://www.coroflot.com/public/people_home.asp

I've watched this guys work for a couple of years now, a real talent: (I told him about this competition too)
http://www.coroflot.com/filippotaiani/car-design

[olpro]

Ooh, Porsche 918 production confirmed!

http://jalopnik.com/#!5783912/the-porsche-918-spyder-is-now-a-plug+in-hybrid-reality

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2011/03/porsche_918_spyder_rendered_03.jpg

Stavros' design is pretty great!

As you have nicely pointed out, Stavros copied the Porsche design almost verbatim. Nonetheless, his uninspired copy is static and boring.
You think this is good design?

[Stavros]

As you have nicely pointed out, Stavros copied the Porsche design almost verbatim.

Not sure where the verbatim part is, but I'm game to listen. Door crease would be the only part that I could see that is the same, and Im not sure they are going to even make it to the airbrushed final rendering. The dimensions contours, etc all came from an original hand sketch, then fitted to the template dimensions. If you think this is a copy of the 918, then trying to reason any further will be a waste of time.


You think this is good design?

918 people who are paying $845,000 apparently think so. As do the people who voted the 918 best of show pretty much every where it was revealed. Of course its a great design...what kind of ignorant question is that?

[Olimk2]

much better than the Carrera GT it replace.

[Evan78]

I think Stavros's design looks great, as do the Porsche designs. Olpro, are you aware that this is a forum full of car guys and not an automotive design forum?

[Flashburn]

As you have nicely pointed out, Stavros copied the Porsche design almost verbatim.

ERm. What design are you looking at, the only similarity is they're both silver and mid engine.

Proportions are different, front and rear are different, almost all angles are different.
Is this like being tone-deaf for car design?

[bromikl]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2011/03/porsche_918_spyder_rendered_03.jpg

[Oppenheimer]

918 people who are paying $845,000 apparently think so. As do the people who voted the 918 best of show pretty much every where it was revealed. Of course its a great design...what kind of ignorant question is that?

OK, I agree with you, the Stavros looks like a copy of the 918 the same way the GTM is a copy of a GT-40. Yeah, they share some elements, and a non-car person might even confuse them, but they are not the same design at all.

But to be fair, I think the guy was questioning if copying (another car, like the 918) is good design. No, its generally not. Its a great way to pay homage (sincerest form of flattery), like with the Roadster. But since (to many of us) the Stavros isn't a copy, that question doesn't apply to his 818 design.

[Stavros]

Its a great way to pay homage (sincerest form of flattery), like with the Roadster. But since (to many of us) the Stavros isn't a copy, that question doesn't apply to his 818 design.

Well said, and lets not forget that the Miata, the most successful selling sports car in the world, being a modern doppelganger for the Elan...yet that didn't seem to hiccup the Miata's popularity.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj70/SmiffyMan/Goodwood3a.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj70/SmiffyMan/09_gch_conc_d2_035.jpg

[PhyrraM]

Well said, and lets not forget that the Miata, the most successful selling sports car in the world, being a modern doppelganger for the Elan...yet that didn't seem to hiccup the Miata's popularity.


Very true. IIRC, Mazda even openly stated the car was inspired by the Elan when it first came out.

[unclebigbad]

http://http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k637/unclebigbad1/Factory5scetches_0002_NEW.jpg
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/1791/diego2a.jpg
I wish I had the computer programs that create all these cool renderings. All Iv'e got is a sketch pad, pencils, a compass and some graph paper. I'm hoping my ideas get through without the polish and glitz of these professionals and super talented students.


I had a busy few weeks prepping a car for the 24 hours of Lemons, but I managed to pull myself away for a few hours today to work more on the profile render I had posted a few weeks back on the GRM forum. I tried to keep this one looking like a real car, with windshield and ground clearance, and legal height lighting. The rims in the renders are 18 in size with 35 aspect tires. I tried to push the diameter as high as possible to accommodate the bling crowd and to properly size the arches. The rest of the sane people should be able to easily fit some 17s with 45 profile tires, 16s may be a bit small for a modern looking car IMHO. I threw in a teaser napkin sketch of the rear, but it will be a few weeks until I get them both digitally airbrushed and fleshed out.

The tricky part about designing for this contest is getting a design to fit the template parameters laid out by FFR so far. We have seen some really cool concepts posted here to the forum, but looking at a lot of them, they are still stuck in concept sketch land with 24" wheels, rubber band tires, bodywork digging into the ground, and disregard for reality as well as federal and state laws. It would be interesting to see a "production version" rendering of some of these concepts.

[Vman7]

I love the Miata, mostly since it is so versatile. The looks are not bad, which can always be upgraded, tons of aftermarket parts etc. The tires look whimpy, but with the HP Miata's have, unless you get the HP up, might be rough getting larger tires to really work well.

[unclebigbad]

http://http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k637/unclebigbad1/Factory5scetches_0002_NEW.jpg

[Stavros]

This is a completely open design competition for a small mid-engined roadster. If someone wanted to design a 9/10ths scale Aventador, or Italia concept to fit the 818 dimensions because that is what they would love to drive, what is wrong with that? Keep in mind what constitutes the majority of FF's model lineup, and it has worked extremely well for them!

With the given dimensions of the FFR 818, I would give kudos to anyone who could shrink and scale an open top Mclaren, Ferrari, Lamborghini, or any other Supercar onto the templates provided without ending up with a squashed out of proportion car. Before the revised templates were released I had mocked up this blue 918esque concept which fits all the dimensional criteria except the rollbar height and rear overhang length. In order to fit those two criteria, the car changed a bit to what you see in red.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1936/blueprintse.jpg

Those who have tried sketching so far onto the templates can probably understand the difficulty in drawing a graceful design onto the slightly awkward measurements given to us. A lot of the low sleek exo-designs seem to forget about the 4.5" of ground clearance and the height of the rollbar, and those things throws off the proportions quite a bit, unless you plan on having some tubes sticking out of the chassis up in the stratosphere above the rest of the car. But who knows maybe a "killer design" could change everything.

With the design competition being so open, and very few details released thus far, this thing may end up being more of an art contest rather than a functional design competition. But I'll keep submitting concepts that I would like to drive, both at Laguna Seca, and the trip there via Highway 1.

[keys2heaven]

Stavros, I really like the side view of the red. Not sure how I feel about the front and rear. I'm not a fan of that taillight design. And, I would prefer a more open grill area in front. Not excessive mind you.

[Stavros]

Stavros, I really like the side view of the red. Not sure how I feel about the front and rear. I'm not a fan of that taillight design. And, I would prefer a more open grill area in front. Not excessive mind you.

The taillights and vents are an easy changeover, this is where constructive criticism helps shape a design. However this render will always be 918 inspired regardless of vents or lights.

I actually have another variation of this body shape with different front and rear ends sitting in photoshop at home, about 80% done, I'll post that one up when its finished.

It's getting tricky to juggle 3 different designs, and prep for an upcoming race this weekend, good thing we still have till June!

[olpro]

Evan wrote (post 472): “Olpro, are you aware that this is a forum full of car guys and not an automotive design forum?”

---- Evan, do you think it might be possible to be BOTH a car guy AND a designer? In any case, this contest (and much of the discussion) is about auto body design.

Oppenheimer wrote (post 475): “But to be fair, I think the guy was questioning if copying (another car, like the 918) is good design. No, its generally not.”
--- Thank you Oppenheimer, you are correct. I was writing about Stavro’s design process, not the specific design of the Porsche 918.

--- Stavros, the problem is that the 918 is not some bland, ubiquitous design of which we have seen a million versions. It is a distinctive, unique design with an innovative theme where the front and rear forms interlock in an unusual and creative way. While not necessarily my favorite theme, it certainly is successful, dynamic and well done. In my post, I am questioning whether it is a good idea to lift such a distinctive Porsche theme and stick it on your own attempt. At the very least, you invite the inevitable (and unflattering) comparison when your version doesn’t measure up to the original. And you can’t blame the package just because your design ability is inadequate to deal with it. That is what professional designers deal with every day.

The bottom line is that I think FF is looking for something of their own on this one.

As for the Miata, it really is a different animal, having introduced a “classic” look to a mass produced little sports car. I would never consider it a blatant copy of anything. Incidentally, I have known Mark Jordan and Tom Matano for years, the guys who designed it – and I would never accuse them of copying anything on that project.

[Flashburn]

Sorry Oldpro, I take it back.

I was commenting on this stavros design:

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/1791/diego2a.jpg

I had not seen this one anywhere and these red and blue CLEARLY look similar to the 918 in some respects especially the *** section.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1936/blueprintse.jpg

[Rotr8]

This is a completely open design competition for a small mid-engined roadster. If someone wanted to design a 9/10ths scale Aventador, or Italia concept to fit the 818 dimensions because that is what they would love to drive, what is wrong with that?



Ummmm stealing others intellectual property, thats not design at all

Also Im a little sick of the attitude towards designers as being nothing more than people who draw(here and elsewhere in other threads by suprising sources. also considered not to be car people), anyone who thinks this is not experienced in any way with design. Design isn't about generating pretty pictures its about CREATING an idea...

[Evan78]

Evan wrote (post 472): “Olpro, are you aware that this is a forum full of car guys and not an automotive design forum?”

---- Evan, do you think it might be possible to be BOTH a car guy AND a designer? In any case, this contest (and much of the discussion) is about auto body design.

Maybe I misinterpreted your question, but maybe working in the industry results in you seeing the similarities in everything and nothing looks original to you. Regardless of the similarities to other cars, or not, if the cars looks good to me, I'm satisfied. Very little is truly original if your vocabulary is large enough.

I'm willing to bet that the majority of people like the Porsche design and Stavros' design, so when you ask "you think this is good design?", I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that your distaste for the subject design is a result of being around the block more than the rest of us rather than just having different or bad taste.

[Evan78]

The bottom line is that I think FF is looking for something of their own on this one.
That's your assumption and its your choice to make it, but they've been very reluctant to say much at all, so anything is possible. Since they are a business, presumably to turn a profit, I would say that one of there primary goals is to create as much demand as possible. That would be aided greatly by a design that strongly appeals to as many people as possible. In the majority of their past products, they've chosen to replicate or closely follow the design of other vehicles. I wouldn't say that completely original design is necessarily high on their list.

[Evan78]

Rotr8, was your comment directed at me? I didn't notice anyone in this thread imply that designers are just people that draw.

[Stavros]

Sorry Oldpro, I take it back.

I was commenting on this stavros design:

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/1791/diego2a.jpg
I had not seen this one anywhere and these red and blue CLEARLY look similar to the 918 in some respects especially the bootay! section.


That would be because, I had not posted the red and blue rendering when olpro had stated the "verbatim" comment. I had only shared here the line drawing one with the red and white, so its still curious as to how he thinks that rendering looks like a 918...olpro never answered on that.


Evan, do you think it might be possible to be BOTH a car guy AND a designer?

Are you by some chance insinuating that you are a car designer olpro? If so that makes is pretty much obligatory for you to share some of your achievements here with us lowly enthusiasts. There definitely would have to be something in that bag of tricks of yours worth showing if you are indeed a car designer.


And you can’t blame the package just because your design ability is inadequate to deal with it. That is what professional designers deal with every day. I personally think the 918 derivative concept ended up fitting quite nicely on the 818 package, but it seems like you just want wound other peoples submissions in order to maintain an elitist designer attitude over us regular sketch and chop guys.

For the record here, I am not a car designer, just a regular old web/print graphic designer. I also happen to be a huge sports car enthusiast. I have had my fair share of RWD cars, Solstice, Miata, 240SX, Boxster S, a half dozen 911s and 912s, Alfas...and was on the cusp of building a Subie powered 550 spyder replica.

When FF announced this contest I figured he was an opportunity to share my interest of German and Italian sports cars in the format that has been laid out. Having actually sat in the 918 at pebble beach last summer (not too many can claim they got behind the wheel of from what I was told a $10,000,000 concept), I fell in love. I decided that for one of my submissions it was totally worth the effort required to refit that car to the 818s specifications if possible, also removing/redesigning the elements not necessary or deemed too expensive. I'm not trying to claim the design as my own, as with one glance its clear where the origins lie, however in it's newly proportioned form, it is truly no longer a 918. Now if you feel that it is not your favorite theme, or that it doesn't measure up to the original, that's totally fine, that's why I am also provided other additional concepts with their own unique designs.


Incidentally, I have known Mark Jordan and Tom Matano for years, the guys who designed it – and I would never accuse them of copying anything on that project.
That's probably because it is easier to say things disparagingly on the internet than to someone personally. Telling us the Miata does not copy anything from the Elan makes your argument about the 918 sound very contradictory.

[Rotr8]

Rotr8, was your comment directed at me? I didn't notice anyone in this thread imply that designers are just people that draw.

There are several people that have said this type of statement in so few words, I was mainly refering to the main GRM thread,,,

[Stavros]

Ummmm stealing others intellectual property, thats not design at all.

Sounds like you must not be a fan of any replicars. At any rate I think Dave from FF is probably the most versed in IP laws since he has been to court for it over and over again...

Replicas exist for a very specific reason that I probably shouldn't need to explain. They are also the main reason why the 818 project is going to even come to fruition!

Anyhow different strokes for different folks. I guess.

[PhyrraM]

The words "Copy", "Influenced", or even "Tribute" can be somewhat blurred here. The are also very open to every individuals *personal* interpritation as to thier specific meanings. One persons definition can, and will, cross with anothers.

The contest is clearly open to all entries. That part has been stated numerous times. "Copies", "Influenced bys", and "Tributes" are all still on the table at this point.

Lets leave the judgements to the judges.


*edit: In hindsight I should have used the word "Replica" instead of "Copy".

[keys2heaven]

Fellas...fellas, let's go easy on each other, k? I know little about sports cars, except that they're fun as heck to drive. I know even less about design. But let me say that many of these submissions or potential submissions are fantastic.

I really don't see the need for the negativity at this point. If you don't like someone's design, so be it. I certainly don't want to come to the forum only to weed through the crap being slung back and forth.

[Stavros]

I really don't see the need for the negativity at this point. If you don't like someone's design, so be it.

Seriously, it can discourage others from sharing their work openly here on the forum, which prevents constructive criticism and improvements to the designs. Plus we all would love to see whats being work on by the community.

[Gollum]

I certainly don't want to come to the forum only to weed through the crap being slung back and forth.

Word. I think that this recent discussion isn't very becoming of the quality of community that one should expect from this site.

A little light hearted talk about how a design has it's obvious influences is fine in my book, but this has been borderline tearing someone down for their submission. As far as I'm concerned everything with a submission, even if it's a 10 year old boy's sketch that looks like a basic esprit shape, should get a pat on the back. I'm a natural born engineer with absolutely zero credentials and I won't pretend to be above or bellow anyone here. We all have our role to play, from design, to influencer, to buyer. Let's not attack those just trying to help the best they know how.

Who knows, FFR might even consider Stravos's design, and then some people would really be eating their words. I for one don't want to put myself in that spot. Instead I'm going to encourage every person that does what they can to help this project become all that it can be. Every sketch and idea is worth putting on the table right now. And when it gets pushed aside, it's not to the determent of the one who birthed the idea, but rather a refining of what this project will be. Not every design will be used to influence the product, but every design will hopefully be used to influence those making decisions to help them better understand what they're looking for.

[Rotr8]

Sounds like you must not be a fan of any replicars. At any rate I think Dave from FF is probably the most versed in IP laws since he has been to court for it over and over again...
To be honest I don't think any designer is, it diminishes their purpose and passion. Obviously this is a much longer conversation, even one that happens regularly over in other design forums without anyone taking offense to it.
All Im saying is if FFR wanted to build another replica they would have done so already and this sub forum would just be a progress/update section.

[riptide motorsport]

i say cut the idealistic discussion and get back on track with designs, the code of conduct for the forum should be more adhered to at this point of the thread, lets get back to work.........Steven

[olpro]

Stavros, sorry I hurt your feelings.
I hope you will be all right.

[Karlo]

Interesting Exige Rendering