Open Design Discussion and What's NEXT!

[Oppenheimer]

Just thinking out loud, but my 2002 WRX with the 2.0L and stock turbo, cobb stage II ecu and full exhaust (including up pipe) gets about 28mpg average, driving about 65-70 mph, very level commute. When I drive 55-60, I can get 31mpg. The car weighs about 3300lbs with me in it. I'm guessing the 818 at about 2000 lbs with driver could easily get 35mpg driving the speed limit (this does include the occasional freeway entrance blast). When I fill up, I'm usually putting in about 12-13 gallons, so Im' assuming it has about a 15 gallon tank (?). I would think a 10-12 gallon tank would net a good range. I can usually go 350-370 miles on said mpg's.

Interesting. What is the size of the '33 tank that we're told will fit behind seats (seats could be lower)?

Of course, hwy mileage has more to do with aerodynamics than weight, but the 818 should easily beat the brick shaped WRX, to yeild the sort of increases you are describing.

Any idea what sort of power you are getting, or your 0-60 time? I had been thinking a near stock WRX motor in an 818 should be able to achieve 35 mpg hwy, yet be capable of under 5 sec to 60 (not at the same time, of course). If your engine build could yield 35 mpg in an 818 (which I agree with you is plausible), I wonder what sort of 0-60 it would achieve?

[readymix]

Interesting. What is the size of the '33 tank that we're told will fit behind seats (seats could be lower)?

Of course, hwy mileage has more to do with aerodynamics than weight, but the 818 should easily beat the brick shaped WRX, to yeild the sort of increases you are describing.

Any idea what sort of power you are getting, or your 0-60 time? I had been thinking a near stock WRX motor in an 818 should be able to achieve 35 mpg hwy, yet be capable of under 5 sec to 60 (not at the same time, of course). If your engine build could yield 35 mpg in an 818 (which I agree with you is plausible), I wonder what sort of 0-60 it would achieve?

The Subaru fuel tank is 16.9 gallons. The light comes on approx. 4 gallons prior to empty. A cobb stage 2 WRX usually makes around 200 horsepower at the wheels (I use MustangDyne dyno numbers as that's what the local Subaru owners typically use.) It's probably about 250-260 crank horsepower. The stock WRX motor should easily yield a 5 second to 60, the 2.0L WRX pulled a 5.4 second zero to 60 per Car and Driver. Cut that weight in half, and there's no doubt it'll pull better numbers. 35mpg might not be much of a stretch once the AWD is off, the weight is reduced as well as the drag.

[JRL]

You can have some fun here http://www.web-cars.com/math/qtr_mile.html

[JRL]

Or here http://vlsicad.ucsd.edu/~sharma/Potpourri/perf_est_intro.html

[subyrod]

I had heard the Cobb Stage II (Cobb ecu plus turboback 3" exhaust and catless up pipe) was good for about 275-280hp at the flywheel.
Not sure on 0-60, but my dad's 2003 WRX with just exhaust work, no tuner, ran 13.9 at Famoso and that was not a super aggressive launch, probably a mild launch and then powershifting each gear.

The Subaru fuel tank is 16.9 gallons. The light comes on approx. 4 gallons prior to empty. A cobb stage 2 WRX usually makes around 200 horsepower at the wheels (I use MustangDyne dyno numbers as that's what the local Subaru owners typically use.) It's probably about 250-260 crank horsepower. The stock WRX motor should easily yield a 5 second to 60, the 2.0L WRX pulled a 5.4 second zero to 60 per Car and Driver. Cut that weight in half, and there's no doubt it'll pull better numbers. 35mpg might not be much of a stretch once the AWD is off, the weight is reduced as well as the drag.

[subyrod]

Here's the dyno, 225whp and wtq. This is the 2002-05 2.0L motor.
http://i539.photobucket.com/albums/ff356/hechtrod/subyrod/2657.jpg

[readymix]

Here's the dyno, 225whp and wtq. This is the 2002-05 2.0L motor.
http://i539.photobucket.com/albums/ff356/hechtrod/subyrod/2657.jpg

Not doubting Cobb's claims on their sheets, but I have yet to see a Cobb Stage 2 2.0L make more than 215whp on the local Mustang Dyno. Though their stock numbers are right in line with what we see for stock cars. Your mileage may vary of course, I would never recommend an off the shelf tune to be honest. You might find a local tuner that has OpenECU and a Tactrix cable that can massage your setup to better numbers for alot cheaper than Cobb's AP solution, Cobb's tunes are typically on the more conservative side of things as far as off the shelf maps go. That may of course be a newer map they've released since 2006, so they may have eeked a little more out of their setup since then. I know alot of 2.5L WRX and STi guys that can manage huge torque numbers with a custom tune...think 270+wtq on the local Mustang Dyno.

[readymix]

For most folks on here, if you are new to Subarus, your best bet for relatively cheap power with the 2.0 and 2.5L turbo motors is to simply swap the uppipe (the 2.5L STi motors came with no catalytic converters in their uppipes...not sure about the 2.5L WRXs) downpipe/turbo back components for a non-catylitic converter system, get a decent boost solenoid (General Motors, Grimmspeed come to mind) and a decent panel filter, then get a custom tune from a local OpenECU expert. You'll be cranking out 225whp/225+ wtq or more since the power robbing AWD system is gone, on a car that weighs next to nothing. And total cost out the door will likely be 1000 bucks, since FFR is likely going to provide a turboback that works with their engine position. You'll be on the hook for a boost solenoid, panel filter, and an uppipe if necessary for your year and the tune. That's easily under 1000 dollars in parts/tuning.

Minnesota guys, I know two GREAT OpenECU tuners in the local area of the Twin Cities that do excellent proven work, and they cost a fraction of what a Cobb AccessPort will run you.

[Cooluser23]

I wonder if FFR has contacted Cobb tuning yet to help with the car. It may be a great partnership.

[readymix]

I wonder if FFR has contacted Cobb tuning yet to help with the car. It may be a great partnership.

Cobb is good, but if you are trying to keep a good price point, you are better off working with the stock bits and letting the end user deal with the tuning. The problem with Cobb is that their parts and services are premium priced. Not that they aren't great at what they do, but since this is a budget minded racer, it may prove to be cost effective to steer clear of premium parts companies and just let the builder deal with tuning beyond the specs. In my case, I'd hate to have a surcharge placed on the kit for Cobb related partnership expenses if I don't intend to use their parts or tuning. As far as the aftermarket and FFR approved hop-up bits, I can see getting Cobb involved in making 818 specific parts.

[mekeys]

Or here http://vlsicad.ucsd.edu/~sharma/Potpourri/perf_est_intro.html

And here to. www.designerspace.com .over 34000 concept drawings for you viewing pleasure.

[Brian Z]

What if we mounted the tank under the seats, with an extra blast shielded seat and a grill ignitor in the gas tank! You could make an eject button! It is an open top, so it should work. =)

[Gun Bunny]

What if we mounted the tank under the seats, with an extra blast shielded seat and a grill ignitor in the gas tank! You could make an eject button! It is an open top, so it should work. =)

This

[Someday I Suppose]

You try it first and let us know how it works. at the very least make sure maddog has a camera rolling so we can get some youtube hits :-)


What if we mounted the tank under the seats, with an extra blast shielded seat and a grill ignitor in the gas tank! You could make an eject button! It is an open top, so it should work. =)

[kitcarj]

Today I was behind a Nissan Juke and noticed the taillights. Very unique! It wouldn't be cheap but better then custom building something crazy.

http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/2011-Nissan-Juke-taillights.jpg

[Oppenheimer]

Ug-ly. Maybe I'm just too old to like that.

[JRL]

I thought the front of the Juke was ugly - the rear is worse.

[riptide motorsport]

the car might be odd but i can see that tail light integrated very nicely into one of the winning designs. even if it were tipped 90 degress sideways............Steven

[kach22i]

.........Nissan Juke and noticed the taillights.
Reminds me of the Ford Focus in a way.

http://cars.about.com/od/ford/ig/2012-Ford-Focus-photos/2012-Ford-Focus-taillight.htm

[Gollum]

To me most of these new tail lights that have just come out in the last couple years look like they were heavily influenced by the new 370Z, which doesn't make me happy since I pretty much loath them...
http://blog.leasetrader.com/images/blog_leasetrader_com/WindowsLiveWriter/2009Nissan370ZNISMOZ_A011/2009%20Nissan%20Nismo%20Z%20tail%20light_2.jpg

[mekeys]

I'm still waiting to see the top 100 ,So can we have a "PEOPLES" choice for one of the three FF is going to do.

[rschoeni]

I'm new to this thread and have not yet read all 50+ pages. However,regarding fuel storage, does anyone who has seen the frame know if a front fuel tank/cell is possible?

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m262/rschoeni/914.jpg

I'd be looking at the 818 as a track day car and a standard 12 galloncell located over or behind the front axle would be more desirable than sitting on the cell. The pic above demonstrates this idea and I'm unaware of 914s (or Caymans) suffering fuel cell/tank fires. 914's have a pretty fair weight distribution btw.;)

[Ks2]

2444

not for a 12 gallon tank... still have to run a steering column through there as well, i thought it would make a great place for the battery

[olpro]

I'm still waiting to see the top 100 ,So can we have a "PEOPLES" choice for one of the three FF is going to do.
Newsflash-
No one at the company ever agreed to such an idea in spite of your pushing it.
Also, maybe when you can prove that an unscientific survey here is actually valid for the market environment, and maybe when you are willing to put up the many tens of thousands of dollars of product development cost, as well as assume the risk of such a decision - will they consider your idea. :)

[mekeys]

Newsflash-
No one at the company ever agreed to such an idea in spite of your pushing it.
Also, maybe when you can prove that an unscientific survey here is actually valid for the market environment, and maybe when you are willing to put up the many tens of thousands of dollars of product development cost, as well as assume the risk of such a decision - will they consider your idea. :)
I'm pretty sure I read a comment from DAVE .That they just might have to do at least three bodies.

[mekeys]

Newsflash-
No one at the company ever agreed to such an idea in spite of your pushing it.
Also, maybe when you can prove that an unscientific survey here is actually valid for the market environment, and maybe when you are willing to put up the many tens of thousands of dollars of product development cost, as well as assume the risk of such a decision - will they consider your idea. :)

Heh olpro Go to Thread;Project 818 Design Contest Winners.. page three comment no. 98

[kach22i]

I think some posters mentioned 100, Dave said maybe 50, then a few days ago said the best 30-40 will take a while to post as they have other display shows to prepare for. At least this is what I recall.

The 100 number did come out of Dave's comment that they could toss out the best 50 designs and still have another 50 worthy of being built. Then went on to say he was glad that he was not a judge.

[Silvertop]

Minnesota guys, I know two GREAT OpenECU tuners in the local area of the Twin Cities that do excellent proven work, and they cost a fraction of what a Cobb AccessPort will run you.

Thanks for that tidbit, Readymix. I'll come looking for you for more details on the Twin Cities area OpenECU tuners (either here or on the local Subie website you recommended elsewhere) once I own something to tune. It's nice to have plenty of time to shop for my donor..............

Just wanted you to know that your commentary is appreciated.

[sub322]

Just question for Dave, is there a chance the interior color other then black could be possible?

[LiquidPT]

Hey everyone, lots of great concepts on here. I thought I'd throw my hat in the ring with something a little different. Hopefully, it's not too off the wall. http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a215/dabanj6/f5_818_concept_rendering_web.jpg

I know the contest is over, and Xabier's is still my fav of what I've seen. But it's too similar looking to something I already have. I like this A LOT. It's got just a wee bit of exo-car to it, but is still a full car. Reminds me of the Prowler (though this is certainly a different design).

[apexanimal]

^ oh... hi liquid ;)


i like that one too... dune buggy meets f1...

[kach22i]

The HermanceDesign certainly would bridge the market gap between the current exo-structure Subie-mid based offerings and "a car you could drive in traffic without fearing for your life".

I was going to do a 9th scheme of similar aspirations but felt it was just too "out there" and too much work to make it right.

Here is an old clay model I did, maybe 10 years ago.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/GKA-WEDGE3-FRONTANGLE.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/GKA-WEDGE3-SIDE.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/GKA-WEDGE3-REAR.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/GKA-WEDGE-TOP.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/GKA-WEDGE3-AERIAL.jpg

I never did make something practical of this rough study. I divorced myself of pure wedges long ago, and just could not get excited about rethinking the front open wheel concept. The HermanceDesign has a lot going for it. Maybe I'll be inspired to do something in this direction again one day.

[Oppenheimer]

Not a fan of the mix of cycle fenders/F1 nose and full body look.

Too much cartoon factor for me to drive this on the street.

Hey LiquidPT, what car do you already have that looks too similar to the Xabier? It looked so unique to me, wondering what this could be.

[olpro]

The Hermance Design proposal is just a confusing mess. It is like he couldn't make up his mind as to what to do.

[Twinspool]

The Hermance Design proposal is just a confusing mess. It is like he couldn't make up his mind as to what to do.

It's more cohesive than what's rolling out of Cadillac's Shanghai plant lately.

[olpro]

Here's two sketches from 2005 on that same format - done in a hot rod mindset.
2645
2646

[kach22i]

Here's two sketches from 2005 on that same format - done in a hot rod mindset.
Those are pretty cool.

I think the real problem running in this general direction is that it never looks like a full car, like something has been amputated or left off in order to cheapen it.

It's difficult enough to obtain respect in a Kit Car without having to climb this sort of hurdle first.

Still, cars like the old Prowler did have it's own certain appeal.

http://www.imagejuicy.com/images/exotic-cars/p/plymouth-prowler/25/
2649

[Oppenheimer]

It's difficult enough to obtain respect in a Kit Car without having to climb this sort of hurdle first.

Excellent point.

[Gollum]

I think the real problem running in this general direction is that it never looks like a full car, like something has been amputated or left off in order to cheapen it.
2649

See, I'm kind of the opposite in some ways. Usually when I see a car that looks amputated I get EXCITED because it means the designer knows what they want, and don't want. Too many cars don't have any driving passion and are too compromising in their designs.

The best way I can describe how I feel about the subject is like Milner's '32 coupe in American Graffiti, and think of the scene when he gets pulled over. The cop is trying to peg him on every little thing. That car was as stripped as legally possible for a single goal, speed. All the way down to the motorcycle fenders on front, it was a car that looked at weight like an anorexic looks at piece of fatty pork.


That said, if a design looks funny to you, that's all fine. We're all welcome to have our own likes and dislikes.

[kach22i]

Milner's '32 coupe in American Graffiti.......................

That said, if a design looks funny to you, that's all fine. We're all welcome to have our own likes and dislikes.

http://kathyschrock.net/graffiti/coupe.htm
2665

if a design looks funny...............it's a personal and subjective thing that's for sure. From the pulse I've gathered on the topic I'm not the only one who would like to see something similar to the Hermance Design as one of the three different car bodies offered.

Maybe explore the possibility that the exo-frame and dune buggy concepts get incorporated into it somehow. Call it a less formal or non-traditional option. The open rear of the yellow dune buggy on such a design would help visually lighten the rear overhang.

2666

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2238-Project-818-Design-Contest-Winners/page4
2667

[mekeys]

Well here it is June 30th and I still haven't seen hardly any of the 700 entries posted..I had heard a rumor that maybe up to 100 would be.It's now the fourth of July still nothing.???
UPDATE it's now the 10th ???

Here it is Nov 21 and I have seen 569 up to date..

[riptide motorsport]

Patience ......Grasshopper. .....................hard to believe he's dead., man i'm getting old!

[kach22i]

Picking up on where this tread paused, found something close to what we were talking about - and it's electric to boot. Click the link to see the full gallery.

http://green.autoblog.com/2008/04/22/top-20-green-cars-we-wish-we-could-buy-today-number-17-ken-oku/

Ken Okuyama, formerly of General Motors, Porsche and Pininfarina, hopes to offer a vehicle known as the K.08. It's supposed to be powered by lithium ion batteries and be made from lightweight aluminum and carbon fiber. We'd expect it to be pretty pricey if it ever does go on sale and be offered initially in Japan only. Call us dreamers, but we want it in the U.S. too!
2853
2854
2855

More photos here:
http://www.performance-car-guide.co.uk/ko7-roadster.html

[riptide motorsport]

cool except for the word pricey! :(

[mekeys]

and the three words electric, lithiun and ion.

[pabs]

theres a great body contest running over at http://grabcad.com/challenges/supercar-body-challenge hope its ok to post this, there have been soo many talented submissions here guys might like try again