Open Design Discussion and What's NEXT!

[Olimk2]

Ok that was dramtic but out of scale, to keep those big intakes the car would make 2 meters wide.
Unless you put 10' wide wheels at the back it won't be...

[bromikl]

But the radiator is tentaively upfront. The more air you pump in the more air you need to get rid of or you have serious lift issues at speed. Unless the radiator moves, only the engine and intercooer need airflow. If we move the radiator to the back, the budget comes under fire.

Of course, I'm not a fan of vents at all - unless they are functional.

Choices...

Personally, I feel the radiator has no business up front. The benefit is increased airflow. But the drawbacks are increased weight, complexity, cost, and diminished aerodynamics in the front.

My favorite place for the radiators: immediately forward of the rear axle, mounted horizontally. Of course in this case, functional side scoops would be critically important. Exhaust through the top deck and rear. I gather SolidWorks is doing much of the 3-D modeling work. They have the tools to determine what will work before a single part is made. As they were instrumental in the development of the X2010, I have no doubt they are up to the challenge.

For your viewing enjoyment, I give you the fastest car ever designed:
http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/news/d5555.html

[Olimk2]

As it is a single donor kit, the rad will be from the scooby...cooling efficiency will be much better in front assuming there is an exit for hot air, this improve aero (downforce) as well!
Weight? Extra hoses and coolant? 5kg?

[PhyrraM]

As it is a single donor kit, the rad will be from the scooby...cooling efficiency will be much better in front assuming there is an exit for hot air, this improve aero (downforce) as well!
Weight? Extra hoses and coolant? 5kg?

Yeah, I agree. I can't really see FFR going with custom rear radiators (although it's possible). Many of the proposed designs use bonnet vents and/or front fender side vents to keep the air from being forced under the car.


On a larger, more conceptual scale, I've been thinking about how closely this car parallels the old Lotus Europa in spirit and design goals.

Both are mid-engined, fiberglass bodied, low volume specialty cars.
Both used somewhat common longitudinal based drivetrains repurposed for mid mounting.
Both had 'custom' welded steel frames under thier molded bodywork.
Both have/had to rely heavily on other manufactures parts to flesh out details like door handles, lights, suspension and brake parts, instrumentation, etc.
Both were/are not much more than exactly what components it takes to make a car go, stop and turn - and be legal to drive on a public road.
Both were designed and produced by very focused and capable manufactures and engineers.

The Lotus being slightly smaller and lighter. The FFR being a customer assembled car, while Lotus stopped producing those many years earlier.

[AdamAnt75]

Ahh the Europa .. proof that ugly can perform. Lets pray that the 818 is closer in spirit that looks..

[bromikl]

As it is a single donor kit, the rad will be from the scooby...cooling efficiency will be much better in front assuming there is an exit for hot air, this improve aero (downforce) as well!
Weight? Extra hoses and coolant? 5kg?

I'm all for keeping costs down and I think we should be able to use the original radiator in the back. Yes, efficiency will need to be considered. But how much airflow is enough? I'm hoping SolidWorks can tell us, along with whether that's possible with a radiator in the rear.

Considering the weight, we're talking about 18ft (at least 9 feet each way) of 1.25 inch rubber hose. And that stuff isn't light. Maybe they have other options, but the water to fill those lines weighs 38lbs (17kg). (Did I calculate that right?)

Regarding efficiency, will the stock water pump move a large enough volume that far without a booster pump?

How do we route the hoses where they won't warm the passenger compartment?

Finally, I'm unclear on how a radiator in the front would add downforce that couldn't be had a simpler way.

We should seriously consider a rear radiator. Most of the designs already accommodate a side intake.

[FFRWRX]

... but the water to fill those lines weighs 38lbs (17kg). (Did I calculate that right?)


No, more like 10 lbs.

[PhyrraM]

1 1/4" thinwall aluminized exhaust tubing. Lighter than rubber hose.

MR2, Fiero, X1/9, Elise, etc. all used the same waterpump as their FWD counterparts.

There should be tons of room over the transmission for the radiator if desired.

[bromikl]

No, more like 10 lbs.

I did it twice. How could I be off by a factor of four? Would you walk me through it?

Thanks.

[bromikl]

I did it twice. How could I be off by a factor of four? Would you walk me through it?

Thanks.

Scratch that. Radius - not diameter. I get 13.6 lbs.

[Senger]

This is the final iteration, after which I'll begin on two new designs. This lacks a standard of cohesive design language, but hopefully has steered clear of the "dune bugginess" that earlier versions expressed. Thank you for your guidance everyone.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5100/5594694415_c25d64fc1f_b.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5150/5594694477_c4f486e828_b.jpg

[2KWIK4U]

Thanas_4,
I really like the 3rd drawing of the back, very nice design.



I also think it should be possible to get the radiator in the back. That would depend on the size of it though, anyone know what the actual size is? Also if you start to push the engine power up you may need more cooling which in turn needs more room for a bigger radiator.

Quite the problem for FF engineers, but I sure do like the designs so far!!

[PhyrraM]

There are many upgraded aftermarket radiators for the WRX already on the market. Most all of them are designed to mount using the factory mounts, hardware and fan assembly, so they are the same length and width as OEM. However, they are usually much thicker.

[bbjones121]

What is with the last weekly winner? A hood scoop on a rear mid engine car?

[Steve91T]

There is no reason to put the radiator in the rear of the car. First of all, the weight of the rad up front will help with weight distribution. Second, you have two vents supplying air to the rear compartment, one for the intake, and one for the intercooler. That intercooler is going to need as much air as possible to keep it from getting heat soaked after just a few laps around the track.

Like PhyrraM said, many cars have mid/rear engines and front radiators. Please add Ford GT and Porsche Boxter....just two I happened to look up.

There's going to be limited space in the rear of the 818, there will be a hard enough time getting enough air to feed the IC, not to mention a huge radiator.

It would be easy and cheap to have the air come in the front, and exit through the hood. This design helps get some weight to the front of the car, provides more air than would ever be possible in the rear, and also produces downforce!

You think that's more expensive? Running a few coolant lines the length of the car? Try mounting it in the rear!

Steve

[Steve91T]

What is with the last weekly winner? A hood scoop on a rear mid engine car?

I know, I don't it at all. Looks like a front engine car.

[2KWIK4U]

What is with the last weekly winner? A hood scoop on a rear mid engine car?

Well you could turn it backwards and use it as a air outlet. ;)

[PhyrraM]

This is an idea of how much room is available in the rear.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5099/5595078943_583b1e7468.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5595078943/)

Of course, this is what I'd like to do with it.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5091/5595663170_8983e2f790.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5595663170/)

In addition to the nice storage, one of the reasons I want the radiator in front is traditionally cars with very light front ends can have momentary front brake lockup problems. If the brakes are jabbed suddenly the fronts can lock up before the suspension settles and weight transfers to increase the grip. This can be learned around, but it can be avoided also.

[mn_vette]

While on the subject of front radiators I had a question. The cool air comes in the front, goes across the radiator, but then where does it go??? On the GTM it is obvious that it goes out the hood and over the car. But what about a normal car? It would have to go through the engine compartment and out somewhere. The bottom of the car? I would think the bottom of the windshield would be another high pressure zone at speed and would help force the air downward out the bottom. This would seem to be bad for high speeds. Perhaps venting it out behind the front wheels would be a good thought for the 818 if it uses a front radiator. And if we can keep it lower, maybe we can fit a small storage compartment up front somewhere. How do other high speed front radiator cars vent the warm air?


Edit: I just looked at the MKIV and the'65 coupe, both have Corvette style "gills" behind the front wheels for venting under hood air.

[VTX]

Seems to me that venting the air out the hood is actually bad for down force, since that slows the air moving over the top of the car. Why not have the air enter in through the front and then vent down and out under the car or out the sides behind the front wheels? Not that I'm a car aerodynamics expert, but just trying to apply some rudimentary knowledge here. Hopefully someone here has more experience and can clear this up.

[Steve91T]

Air exiting under the car creates lift. Air exiting through the top of the hood creates downforce.

http://www.caruuu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/GeigerCars-Ford-GT-2008-1-1024x768.jpg

[Gollum]

Conventionally the air goes down and is a decent source of front end lift at speed. That model has been slowly changing in OEM vehicles, and performance oriented cars abandoned that model a couple of decades ago for the most part. There's still a few exceptions though. I'm not sure about the new mustangs, but the last generation had no real place for the air to go other than down. It usually comes down to cost and how hardcore the car is.

It's amazing how much lift poor engine bay air management can cause. In seeing windtunnel test data regarding the S30 Z cars ('69-'78) you can eliminate a good portion of front end lift (which is substantial) by making sure all the engine bay air exits through the hood. In fact, adding a air dam and splitter is almost counter-productive until you've done a few supporting aero mods like adding a belly pan and hood vents.

Ideally, the solution seen in the GTM or Ford GT is ideal. Force all frontal air through the radiator, and then only let the air out in one direction, up. There's a bit of info out there on the GT's aero work, and how massively different than the old GT40 it REALLY IS! So many people really didn't like how "similar" the new one was, but in reality it's a completely different beast when it comes to how it cuts through the air. They put a lot of work into getting that front end right, and it's worth researching and learning about what they did and why.

[Steve91T]

Seems to me that venting the air out the hood is actually bad for down force, since that slows the air moving over the top of the car. Why not have the air enter in through the front and then vent down and out under the car or out the sides behind the front wheels? Not that I'm a car aerodynamics expert, but just trying to apply some rudimentary knowledge here. Hopefully someone here has more experience and can clear this up.

But it's adding more volume to the amount going over the top of the car. I definitely doesn't hurt down force. It's much better than having it exit under the car. Ducting it out the sides of the car would not only be complicated, but probably restrictive, and is a waste. It's not doing any good going out the side.

[Thanas_4]

Hello again, today we present you some proposals for the rear together with an image containing the best front ends of our design progress till now. We are going to focus on the back of our design for a while, until we find something good. Enjoy...

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/5875/backproposals.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-06

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/5916/skitso34.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-06

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/6803/skitso12.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-06

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/342/frontpartsteamktcopy.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-06

[mn_vette]

I like the third rear end the best. What about taking the center of the rear defuser and using that as a single center exhaust port? Hopefully FFR can still fit some kind of a muffler on it to keep it quieter than a harley.

[Steve91T]

I like the third rear end the best. What about taking the center of the rear defuser and using that as a single center exhaust port? Hopefully FFR can still fit some kind of a muffler on it to keep it quieter than a harley.

It will, otherwise it won't be legal in many states, including mine, VA.

Steve

[2KWIK4U]

Thanas_4
I still like the rear of the fourth pic down, very classy.

[mn_vette]

It will, otherwise it won't be legal in many states, including mine, VA.

Steve

There is a guy in my area with a '65 coupe that I see on occasion. You can literally hear him coming from a mile away when he's getting on it.

[olpro]

I think the discussion on how to vent the air from a front mounted radiator is missing an important issue. If the vehicle has production car ground clearance, which at 4.5" on the template it is close to, then the down route is okay. If someone wants to race this thing (and that is pretty likely), they will lower it down and the top (or maybe side) exits become much more important. Don't try to duct it through the wheel wells for sure.
I don't think any modern production car actually develops lift on the front end. That would be irresponsible engineering - I have a reasonable amount of wind tunnel experience (production vehicles only) and have never seen it.

[mn_vette]

I think the discussion on how to vent the air from a front mounted radiator is missing an important issue. If the vehicle has production car ground clearance, which at 4.5" on the template it is close to, then the down route is okay. If someone wants to race this thing (and that is pretty likely), they will lower it down and the top (or maybe side) exits become much more important. Don't try to duct it through the wheel wells for sure.
I don't think any modern production car actually develops lift on the front end. That would be irresponsible engineering - I have a reasonable amount of wind tunnel experience (production vehicles only) and have never seen it.

I did notice on my '93 corvette that at high speeds the body would lift up and feel like it was floating. Perhaps my front air dam was defective or something, but I would think that the 818 would have a similar ground clearance.

[crackedcornish]

I did notice on my '93 corvette that at high speeds the body would lift up and feel like it was floating. Perhaps my front air dam was defective or something, but I would think that the 818 would have a similar ground clearance.

I had the same thing on a late 70's 280Z....

[Benji]

What about taking the center of the rear defuser and using that as a single center exhaust port?

Unlikely if the transaxle tail is in the way.

Phyrra, you are right, that boot (sorry, 'trunk') needs to happen in the 818:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5091/5595663170_8983e2f790.jpg

[crackedcornish]

Unlikely if the transaxle tail is in the way.

Phyrra, you are right, that boot (sorry, 'trunk') needs to happen in the 818:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5091/5595663170_8983e2f790.jpg

and it has to be removable to make getting in there to service the engine/transmission/suspension easier

[2KWIK4U]

I hope it can have at least as much storage as my MKIII roadster had. Just enough for a couple of overnight bags and things.

[PhyrraM]

In case the photos are not clear, both those pictures are of a Lotus Europa, like I mentioned prior. In fact, both are of the same car. The storage 'tub' drops into the space above the transmission and is easily removable. It is supported by the same 'ledge' or sill that the rear cover sits against.

I chose those pictures because the transmission design is VERY close to the Subaru, so we should see very similiar amount of (possibly) wasted space, depending on the winning design of course. Why not put it to good use?

We've eyeballed a modern Lotus as a target of the 818, why not take engineering and space efficiency cues from one of it's predicessors? :cool:

[Ks2]

xabier i had to create an account just to say how awesome that design is, you have chosen what is (in my opinion) the best looking headlights of all subaru years. would be great to have a T-top style with glass (or plastic) bits that go between the windshield and the rear bar

question (for anyone) the top mount intercooler sits at a slight angle will there be a scoop or duct to get air onto the intercooler? i suppose ducting can be run from the vents in front of the rear tires but can it get enough cool air to the intercooler?

[Gollum]

Well air can be ducted from either the side or from the top. Something to remember though is that it's hard to get air to move around a tight radius without positive pressure, which you won't get much of at most speeds. So ideally you have a scoop above the intercooler. One look at the massive OEM STI scoop and you can understand just how much airflow an intercooler needs. It's actually amazed me how much a larger scoop on a WRX can help heat soak when tuning at the upper limits of the factory turbo on the WRX.

If you can shield the turbo as much as possible, or actually dedicate some of your air ducting to cooling the turbo, passing air through the intercooler becomes "slightly less" critical.

I have a feeling that for many people wanting to reach far beyond stock power levels, an air/water intercooler might just end up being more practical. Also remember that you can also make your engine less susceptible to intake air temp levels simply by running E-85, but that also requires larger injectors and a retune by someone who knows what they're doing with E-85. If you want to get fancy you can also add water injection. There's lots of theories as to where to inject it, but any point will do the job as long as you get a good even distribution into the air (to prevent uneven cylinder temp).

[Franze]

here is my latest
note the bonnet scoop has an adjustable wing

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5190/5596897967_b4ebf57fe4_b.jpg

[Ks2]

now that you mention it the WRX runs really well on E-85 and switches to it really easily (nasioc has a ton of info on it) and plenty of room for extra power while running on it, tuning these engines is actually really easy (via COBB accessport or just rom raider and a laptop) and there are a ton of good 'E-tuners' out there.

i asked about the intercoolers since alot of designs i see don't seem to have nearly the airflow to move over the intercooler that is needed. there is a stock heatshield but there are better ones in the aftermarket (or you can easily wrap it)

i plan to swap the 2.0l shortblock in my old motor for the 2.5l for more displacement and higher compression

[CooperD]

One thing I'd really love to see more of in some of the proposed designs is a sense of simple elegance, of flowing curves. Many of the designs we're seeing (and yes, I like many of them, my favorite so far being Xabier's rendering in white), feature very angular design foundations.

I came acrossed these photos of the original Porsche Boxster concept car, and it made be break out in a shiver of car lust - I'd love to see something with this sense of elegance and beauty born into the 818:

http://nozama.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/23/boxsterconcept1.jpg http://nozama.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/07/23/boxsterconcept2.jpg

FWIW - I'm not a subscriber to the Top Gear philosophy of Super Car design in that it must be "outrageous, and over the top" -- while it may make a provocative and eye catching, it's something I'd be embarrassed to be seen in most of the time. The Zonda is a perfect example of this - amazing performance, ridiculous design. While I love to watch it go 'round a track, I'd feel like an idiot driving one in public.

[Xelerator]

There is not enough airflow for a radiator and intercooler in the rear, the side intakes/ rear outlets can barely supply intercooler(s) efficiently.

[crobin4]

There is not enough airflow for a radiator and intercooler in the rear, the side intakes/ rear outlets can barely supply intercooler(s) efficiently.
+1 i agree

[crackedcornish]

I've never run a turbo, or any other power adder for that matter. Would running a front mounted intercooler on a mid engined car have excessive tubing length or other downside?

[PhyrraM]

It takes time to pressurize a volume of air, so generally speaking, all intake piping between the turbo and the intake valves should be as short as possible. By the same token the piping for the exhaust between the exhaust ports and the turbine should be as short as possible.

In the real world? I would think that front to back would be barely workable, you will notice severe lag.

[bbjones121]

It takes time to pressurize a volume of air, so generally speaking, all intake piping between the turbo and the intake valves should be as short as possible. By the same token the piping for the exhaust between the exhaust ports and the turbine should be as short as possible.

In the real world? I would think that front to back would be barely workable, you will notice severe lag.

I agree. That is a lot of volume to pressurize. You will already have lag on big turbos with this engine. I don't think you want to add more.

[Gollum]

If the radiator is in the front, getting enough air to the intercooler won't be so difficult, just a matter of how well executed it is. The little details like how well the intercooler is sealed to the air way play a critical role in the system's efficiency.

There's people with 600+hp porsches out there with intercoolers in the back. There's ways to get it done. I hope FFR gives us the best base they can, but in the end it's up to the end user to make it work for their application with where they want to go with their project.

[PhyrraM]

Porsche uses the extreme high pressure generated around the tires as the source to the intercooler air. The 911 turbo has twin intercoolers essentially mounted behind the tires and ducted to the rear deck or the lower bumper (depending on years). Very effective.

No reason the 818 can't use the same source of pressure. In the end it's all about finding a place on the vehicles body with higher pressure (usually low or under) and ducting it to a spot with low pressure (usually up top or behind something). Then place whatever you need cooled in that stream.

[keys2heaven]

Porsche uses the extreme high pressure generated around the tires as the source to the intercooler air. The 911 turbo has twin intercoolers essentially mounted behind the tires and ducted to the rear deck or the lower bumper (depending on years). Very effective.

No reason the 818 can't use the same source of pressure. In the end it's all about finding a place on the vehicles body with higher pressure (usually low or under) and ducting it to a spot with low pressure (usually up top or behind something). Then place whatever you need cooled in that stream.

That's fascinating. Didn't know that. Have to love fluid dynamics. Turn the wheels into giant impellers.

[2KWIK4U]

It takes time to pressurize a volume of air, so generally speaking, all intake piping between the turbo and the intake valves should be as short as possible. By the same token the piping for the exhaust between the exhaust ports and the turbine should be as short as possible.

In the real world? I would think that front to back would be barely workable, you will notice severe lag.

STS Turbo Systems has been running twin rear turbos mounted under the car with the engine up front for a few years now with not many problems, but you are right about a lot of extra plumbing.

[bbjones121]

STS Turbo Systems has been running twin rear turbos mounted under the car with the engine up front for a few years now with not many problems, but you are right about a lot of extra plumbing.
What engine displacement?

[MDRex]

The STS turbo systems are all meant for V8's. You see them on cars like the Mustang and GTO. I think they also use the return pipe as the intercooler, basically the pipe is long enough that it cools the air without needing an actual intercooler.

[bbjones121]

The STS turbo systems are all meant for V8's. You see them on cars like the Mustang and GTO. I think they also use the return pipe as the intercooler, basically the pipe is long enough that it cools the air without needing an actual intercooler.
That is what I figured. Need to keep the comparisons apples to apples. What turbo setup works on a V8 is completely different than on a 2.0 or 2.5l.

[Gollum]

I wasn't just referring to porsches in general, not just the newer 911's. I've seen some pretty radical setups and they almost always require unique customizations for that exact application, weather it's a drag car, auto x, larger track, high mph, high downforce, etc. You really need to tailor your configuration for your design goals. The stock 911 turbo setup works well for a street car and stock and even slightly elevated power levels. At considerable power upgrades the stock intercoolers are undersized without going to water injection.

[2KWIK4U]

The STS turbo systems are all meant for V8's. You see them on cars like the Mustang and GTO. I think they also use the return pipe as the intercooler, basically the pipe is long enough that it cools the air without needing an actual intercooler.

I think you need to look at their site, they also do them for v6 and others. There would not be a big deal in the displacement versus how the turbo is set up. I have dealt with turbo systems for many years and if set up correctly most problems you mentioned can be overcome.

[PhyrraM]

Another thing to keep in mind is that, depending on application, lag isn't always bad. for example, in low traction standing start situations (or drag racing) it can buy time to get the speed up before the power really hits.

However one easily overlooked, but very real, facet of excellent handling is throttle response. Being able to modulate the power delivery to the driven wheels is very important to the design of a well balanced, tossable car. Any delay in the powertrain can be undesirable or even upsetting to the balance of the car. This can be from squshy motor mounts, a flexing chassis, a slushbox automatics or even turbo lag.

Most of this can be learned around and even anticipated, but it's much easier to deal with if it is designed to be at a minimum from the start. The stock Subaru is really good in this regard.

[2KWIK4U]

PhyrraM,

I think you hit the nail on the head, besides we still don't know what donor will work best with the design they choose.

Bring on more designs!! :)

[Xelerator]

Two intercooler setup
http://i53.tinypic.com/2zrg5ea.jpg

http://www.porschetuningmag.com/wp-content/uploads/porsche-wimmer-rs-3.jpg

[MDRex]

I think you need to look at their site, they also do them for v6 and others. There would not be a big deal in the displacement versus how the turbo is set up. I have dealt with turbo systems for many years and if set up correctly most problems you mentioned can be overcome.

Looks like you are right, I was just going off what I remembered about them from years ago. I see they do the remote-mount system for the Z, Camaro and Mustang V6's. Still, those are much larger engines than the Subarus.

[Benji]

Looks like you are right, I was just going off what I remembered about them from years ago. I see they do the remote-mount system for the Z, Camaro and Mustang V6's. Still, those are much larger engines than the Subarus.

4 cylinders 2.5L, single turbo, 2.5L and 4 cylinders per turbo....... 8 cylinders 6L, twin turbo, 3L and 4 cylinders per turbo.....

[Gollum]

I can understand why the STS turbo setups came up, but I've seen very few STS installs that were owners I'd consider "hardcore" like most of the 818 buyers will be. The STS setups will never extract as much power from a compressor as possible, will never have NA comparable throttle modulation response like a good system should, and will always be considered a compromise by most.

There's successful race teams that have used shorter unequal turbo manifolds to reduce spool to a minimum, and there's successful teams that have insisted on equal length manifolds to keep the design efficient. Both work when done right, but even in the equal length camp, keeping the tubing shorter has ALWAYS been a good thing.

What can be hard to remember, is that a huge percentage of "car guys" are mostly interested in freeway performance, and want to be able to blow the doors off the guy who revs next to them going down the highway. I would have thought that at least in the underpowered import market that more people would put an emphasis on handling and having cars that corner fast, but I found the notion of straight line speed being paramount prevalent among the culture. To that end STS systems work great, and aren't a bad way to get power from a turbo without so much heat. But you can't get around the fact that longer plumbing is always against you.

I'm a bit partial to the car it's in, but this is how you run ideal turbo plumbing in my mind: http://www.sr240z.com/srpictures/36.JPG

[Franze]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5221/5599337146_925f4f89f8_b.jpg

sorry for the re upload, had to re upload on flickr
hope u like it!

[Twinspool]

There is not enough airflow for a radiator and intercooler in the rear, the side intakes/ rear outlets can barely supply intercooler(s) efficiently.

What on earth are you talking about?! You just pronounce that there isn't enough air for two heat exchangers without even a shred of supporting evidence?

Turbos can pressurize the engine's cylinder to 1 bar while spinning at 6000+ rpm, that's 1.25L per rev, 100rev/sec or 125L per second of compressed air using cherry picked numbers. I know lag has more to do with transient response but c'mon, adding 3 feet of 60mm tubing is roughly equal to the entire 2.5L that the engine displaces every two revs.

[bromikl]

What on earth are you talking about?! You just pronounce that there isn't enough air for two heat exchangers without even a shred of supporting evidence?


I am equally confused. The MP12-4C puts the radiator in the back - with almost 600 Hp. Two of them, to be precise. There does appear to be two smaller heat exchanger in the front, also.

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/mclaren-mp12-4c-stripped-down-to-its-core-ar79952.html

[speedboy]

Hi guys. Here's a design I submitted last week. Posted these pics on the Grassroots forum but wanted to post them here also as I was following this thread too. Included both street and track versions. Cheers.


Street
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-03/c42ad194.png

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-03/2258dc3d.png

Track
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-03/95bc5b93.png

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-03/35f257c9.png

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-03/3fa3f904.png

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-03/d77500e9.png

[2KWIK4U]

I think all this originally came up because of space limitations for Radiator, turbos, ect versus air flow, but I would guess that most people will be happy with moderate gains and simpler setups. If someone needs more they are probably smart enough to figure out a different way to make it all fit.

Franze
nice look for the front.

[Xelerator]

What on earth are you talking about?! ...

Ambient air cooling down the intercooler.

[Franze]

I think all this originally came up because of space limitations for Radiator, turbos, ect versus air flow, but I would guess that most people will be happy with moderate gains and simpler setups. If someone needs more they are probably smart enough to figure out a different way to make it all fit.

Franze
nice look for the front.

Thanks I think its cool

[readymix]

Thanas-4, in that matrix of drawings you posted. The 4th one down on the right side, the one above the red one...if they pick that tomorrow, I'm sending my 10,000 dollars that day. I love the look of that one.

[AVIONX]

Alright so I have been playing around with proportions and this is what I have come up with, it's a bit tame, need to make a race spec version next
forgive the perspective on the lights

Cheers
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5137/5587801141_e9465ae21e_b.jpg

This would be the Cadiallac ATS. Now give us the ATS-V :)

[PhyrraM]

Speedboy, Interesting. Makes me think of a mid engined musclecar. Nice work.

Are you developing them further?

[Thanas_4]

Well, we are still working on this back part of our design. Soon we will finish this concept by making realistic sketches and we are going to send it to the competition. After that we will probably work on new ones (as from what I have understood, we can send several concepts as a team). Here are some more ideas for the back and a proposal for headlights at the front:

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/9749/reargood.jpg

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1005/rearpartsupdatea.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2972/skitso35.jpg

http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/6159/kgrhqziie1mkfirbnem15l9.jpg

we also may work on this one to send - it has small differences but at the end it looks like another car. Personally I like it best.


http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/6295/protasiteliki.jpg


And last but not least, a side sketch I just got from Konstantinos - the rear part is a bit revised and I think its better now:

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8181/skitso36.jpg (http://img546.imageshack.us/i/skitso36.jpg/)

[readymix]

we also may work on this one to send - it has small differences but at the end it looks like another car. Personally I like it best.

http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/6295/protasiteliki.jpg (http://img862.imageshack.us/i/protasiteliki.jpg/)

I seriously love this design. I have the sketch as my background image right now. The lines on it are beautiful. And while it's got the "OMG check that car out!" look to it, it doesn't look like the batmobile either. If Factory Five took that design, I'd be one of the first in line for it. Beautiful work.

[readymix]

Seriously, let me re-iterate, it's gorgeous. I think the best part about all of it is it looks feasible as a low cost kit body. There are some vents, but not TOO many. And they are in the right places. The headlamps are classy, and entirely do-able in the same way the GTM's headlamps are integrated. The fenders/wheel arches are curvy, but just the right amount of curvy. And it just flat out looks like something I'd want to drive. Love it, dude. Keep up the good work.

[Thanas_4]

thank you very much readimix, I appreciate your good words. We will try to preserve it's style when we put it on the templates given by FF

[riptide motorsport]

Speedboy...nice modern version of a Mclaren......I like it!

[05xtsy]

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I found this while looking for inspiration, and then I passed out. I woke up with nausea and a ringing tone in my head.... and then I started cry/laughing.

http://www.autosavant.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/12-pagani-huayra.jpg

[Nelff]

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8181/skitso36.jpg

I really like this!!!

except the part where I can't figure out how to load the pic...

wOOt, figured it out :)

[555ctsv]

I'm sure this has been discussed already, but where is the fuel tank going to be located?

[speedboy]

PhyrraM, riptide motorsport; thanks for the positive comments. Already started another design so probably won't have the time to develope this one any more. Will post pics of the new design soon.

[phenotyp]

Hey all--
I posted these over at the GRM forum already, but just finally got around to registering here. Here are a couple of my first sketches...

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p48/phenotyp/FFRdesigncontest_profile_12th_scale_driver37fcopy. jpg


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p48/phenotyp/FFRdesigncontest_profile_12th_scale_driver52gcopy. jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p48/phenotyp/FFRdesigncontest_profile_12th_scale_driver54ncopy. jpg

... just keeping it fast, loose, and fun at this point. Trying to figure out how best to work with this odd proportion.

[olpro]

Soooo...
Any more information on the JUDGING PANEL?

[Thanas_4]

3 more sketches for today:

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5338/skitso37.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-09

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/9965/thanosbacksmall.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-09

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1010/thanosfrontsmall.jpg
By Team_KT (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/Team_KT) at 2011-04-09

[crackedcornish]

I'm sure this has been discussed already, but where is the fuel tank going to be located?

last I heard, it was going under the seats

[05xtsy]

Soooo...
Any more information on the JUDGING PANEL?

My thoughts exactly

[riptide motorsport]

A tough job for sure!

[phenotyp]

the package layout right now (which, apparently, may be somewhat fluid... ideally), is wack. The driver's way too far back, for starters. Compare to the MR2 mk3-- the driver in the MR is one whole body-width forward, and the wheelbase is longer (and sits on 15" f/r wheels until the revamp which went to 15/16, and each with staggered widths. they did a whole serious lot of work with geometry on that thing, which is why pretty much everyone who modified it in any way other than an all-out track car put it in a ditch or a tree (but, thankfully, pretty much everyone walks away to tell the story)). And that's a car that's really well-proportioned but has a CG that's too high to be a real track car (though its suspension is way different, I know) out of the box, with 140 stock HP. I've been driving mine for 5 1/2 years, daily. I've done full underbody custom bracing, and that's it as far as performance goes. I've also owned and driven a tracked 914, with shaved tires (flexible as your pup tent, lemme tell you). If you want to really do this, figure out the wheelbase, then the component placement, then the structure that can best cope with it. And decide whether you want it to be a real track car, or a real street car. There's too big a difference between the two to design for both.

tl;dr: Don't fuss about door handles until you know whether you're designing a pickup truck or a race car.

[Vman7]

I am tempted to post what I have done so far, but won't just yet.....I know such a tease....

I'll tell you what, this last coupe of weeks there has been a lot of creative talent posting :o

[Franze]

Hey phenotyp,
That's looking rad, its good to finally see something other than Audi, or a 70s Ferrari , elise clone
Love it

[phenotyp]

If it ain't original, why bother?

[Franze]

spot on

[Wildrova]

3 more sketches
http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/1010/thanosfrontsmall.jpg
By Team_KT (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/Team_KT) at 2011-04-09

Please, let the design be this or damn close to it.

I can see that, no roof, sunshine, a twisty road, a screaming engine. - perfect

[phenotyp]

if nothing else, the 818 deserves a longer wheelbase.

[PhyrraM]

if nothing else, the 818 deserves a longer wheelbase.

Why?

The Boxster with a flat 6 is 95", the old Lotus Esprit with a longitudinal inline 4 was 96", the old Europa also with a longitudinal 4 was 91". The 'target' Elise is 91". The MR2s ranged from 91" to 96". The donor WRX is only 99" with a back seat!

To fit the fuel tank? Simply for styling reasons? To push it larger than it needs to be? I feel like I'm missing something here, 95" With only 2 cylinders depth on the motor should be MORE than enough. FFR originally stated they chose the wheelbase for handling/balance reasons.

[crackedcornish]

Why?

The Boxster with a flat 6 is 95", the old Lotus Esprit with a longitudinal inline 4 was 96", the old Europa also with a longitudinal 4 was 91". The 'target' Elise is 91". The MR2s ranged from 91" to 96". The donor WRX is only 99" with a back seat!

To fit the fuel tank? Simply for styling reasons? To push it larger than it needs to be? I feel like I'm missing something here, 95" With only 2 cylinders depth on the motor should be MORE than enough. FFR originally stated they chose the wheelbase for handling/balance reasons.

I was actually wondering why it was going to be so big and heavy...a porsche 550 replica with a subaru flat 4 is 85" wheelbase and 1400lbs.

[LifeIsOnTheWire]

i agree, there is no need for a longer wheelbase. it isn't supposed to compete with Murcielagos, its going to compete with Lotus Exiges

[PhyrraM]

I was actually wondering why it was going to be so big and heavy...a porsche 550 replica with a subaru flat 4 is 85" wheelbase and 1400lbs.

Heavy, yes. I think it could be done @ 1600 pounds.

The 550 is rear engined, that must help with the wheelbase a lot.

[crackedcornish]

Heavy, yes. I think it could be done @ 1600 pounds.

The 550 is rear engined, that must help with the wheelbase a lot.

a speedster is rear engined, a spyder is mid engined
http://vintagespyders.com/media/images/mengine_jpg.jpg

[Gollum]

I agree, if anything I thought the 95" wheelbase is a bit long. My LONG NOSED datsun 280Z is 90.7"... Even the longer 280ZX is under 92", with the 4 seater model at 99". 95" is plenty long for anything that isn't planning on going 220+mph on a regular basis.

[crackedcornish]

I agree, if anything I thought the 95" wheelbase is a bit long. My LONG NOSED datsun 280Z is 90.7"... Even the longer 280ZX is under 92", with the 4 seater model at 99". 95" is plenty long for anything that isn't planning on going 220+mph on a regular basis.

which had me scratching my head about the comments about not having enough room for the 6 cyl....granted the porsche/vw front suspension is very space efficient, but I would think a wheelbase that's 10" longer would allow some room for the 6 in the engine bay and still give a decent sized cockpit

[PhyrraM]

Nice. Never seen a middy 550 before.

85" must be tight, but obviously doable.

[PhyrraM]

which had me scratching my head about the comments about not having enough room for the 6 cyl....granted the porsche/vw front suspension is very space efficient, but I would think a wheelbase that's 10" longer would allow some room for the 6 in the engine bay and still give a decent sized cockpit

I think it's the fuel tank. FFR is quiet right now, but the more I think about it and the more I read about it - the more I realize that the factory fuel tank is not right for this car. But I'm sure there is very little wiggle room in the $10K budget for a fabbed tank once you start adding up all the stuff that FFR normally includes in other kits.

[mhoward1]

So why the interest in putting the EZ30R in the car? The Engine weights 50 lbs more and has about the same HP as the EJ25T.

[crackedcornish]

I still think it should go up front. Placed up and behind the dash (again like the porsche/vw), they should be able to use the stock tank in that location

[crackedcornish]

So why the interest in putting the EZ30R in the car? The Engine weights 50 lbs more and has about the same HP as the EJ25T.

less complex, less maintenance (comparatively speaking), smoother more torquey power off idle, and according to Outfront Motorsports they can make power (900hp, if you want to spend the money)

http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/600hp_setup.htm

[PhyrraM]

I still think it should go up front. Placed up and behind the dash (again like the porsche/vw), they should be able to use the stock tank in that location

I think it's too wide for a double a-arm suspension. Maybe struts, but nobody is hoping for those either. The factory Subaru tank is almost as wide as the car.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5269/5613295511_1d4a3cc719.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5613295511/)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5310/5613883960_f58b692c84.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5613883960/)

Maybe twisted 90 degrees to run the length of the car instead of across it? I wonder what that would do for flow and baffling......

[mn_vette]

less complex, less maintenance (comparatively speaking), smoother more torquey power off idle, and according to Outfront Motorsports they can make power (900hp, if you want to spend the money)

http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/600hp_setup.htm

They also recommend Mendeola for transmissions.

[Olimk2]

Doesn't come cheap...but nice engines, the twin turbo 4 with F40 style exhaust looks the part!
http://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/images/TT2.5Lgas.jpg

[Thanas_4]

Hey, finally it seems that we are gathering our best designs in to 2 different proposals. Tomorrow we will probably post the almost finished ones. Here is a preview of the first one by Konstantinos. The other one will probably be my version that took mostly positive reviews from you. We will be back soon ;)

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3017/90345583.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/i/90345583.jpg/)

[Olimk2]

Nice but those celica lights needs to be at least 25% bigger... and the rear is 2.10m wide as it is.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/projectprelude/P1010756Medium.jpg

[Bill_H]

I think it's the fuel tank. FFR is quiet right now, but the more I think about it and the more I read about it - the more I realize that the factory fuel tank is not right for this car. But I'm sure there is very little wiggle room in the $10K budget for a fabbed tank once you start adding up all the stuff that FFR normally includes in other kits.

I agree. Think about it this way: the stock front seats are designed to mount flat on the floor, so there is pretty much no way both the seats and tank can come from the donor unless the seats are to be even taller than they are in the WRX. It would be more cost effective and a much better design to use an aftermarket tank and let us use the donor seats.

[mhoward1]

you know...a 16 gallon VW fuel tank is only about $150 bucks at most auto parts stores.

[PhyrraM]

I don't think it's the availability of a proper tank, it's the cost and ability to stay in the $10K budget.

It's easy to say "Sure, $10,150 is close enough", but when you break down and make the first exception the next one follows fast, and the next even faster. Before you know it FFR has a $15K kit and it no longer meets the design goals or the target market they set for it. Slippery slope....

[Rotr8]

poor poor MR2(shakes head) and that Border bumper is not cheap either,,, yet again money can't buy taste...

[Franze]

Here is my latest, enjoy
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5225/5616434784_e92af9546d_b.jpg

[PhyrraM]

I like that Franze.

Good ground clearance. Short, driveway and speed bump friendly overhangs. Rollover protection. Simple lines that look fairly easily producable. No "high dollar" accents to try and produce on a budget.

The transmission might be exposed because of the short rump, but that might be OK with this styling. Window line could be lower, front sightlines look 'high'. A winshield needs to be added, but could be a continuation of the current flow if the side window line was lower.

A good start, I'm looking forward to your work as you transition it from concept to "real" car.

[D2W]

Franze, this is my favorite of all your work so far, nice lines. What's overall height?

[Colvindesign]

thanas, looking good. However what would the width and wheel diam be on that?

[Franze]

thanks for the comments, I do need to tighten it up now, and define the surfaces more, Will do very shortly, this will e my first entry,

[Wilky]

I'd like to see a removal targa even if its a soft top option. I am back on forth on the N/A or turbo. The porsche boxter and toyota MR2 weigh more and/or had less power and they were fun to drive.

[ScoobySnack818]

I've been reading (read: "lurking") almost every post about the new 818 since February and let me say, I am SO excited about this car!

I used to own a 2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS and modified it to look like the JDM-spec WRX at the time. I never went to the next level and did an engine swap to turbo, and then the new WRX's came out and I wasn't a fan of the look. I did love the deep boxer growl however and have driven a few EJ20 turbo cars that are great on power- despite the fact they are pulling close to 3500 lbs!

I know the guys at Factory Five will do an excellent job with this car, as I have toured their factory in Wareham, played pick-up hockey with one of their engineers, and met Dave Smith in person. As someone who participated heavily in FSAE in college (BSME), these guys really have their suspension geometry down. I know everyone is going crazy about the exterior styling but the main thing now is to get those roll centers and CG's in the right places and be able to package everything accordingly.

My plan was to build a FFR Mk4 Roadster within the next 15 years. Now thanks to this concept, my love of tuner cars, subarus, and factory five engineering should accelerate that plan to within the next 5 years!

Basically, Thank you FFR! Keep up the great work!

-Justin

[Justen]

I was on here yesterday and saw that someone posted a link to their subaru running a 10 second 1/4, but now I can't find it. Am I crazy, or just bad at searching the threads?

[Flyinglow]

I was on here yesterday and saw that someone posted a link to their subaru running a 10 second 1/4, but now I can't find it. Am I crazy, or just bad at searching the threads?

Not sure about on here, but there are alot on youtube. Just search 10 second subaru. Around here there are several running low 11's consistently. Mainly sti's, and one wrx that I know of. Most Subie owners are doing autox or rallyx verse 1/4 miles since it better suits the car.

[xabier]

I have just seen this and thought it could be interesting for most of us, as this is a new Subaru STI based sports car, different to the one we are looking for here, but some details such as the engine and weight are similar so I suppose the Factory Five 818 would have almost the same performance, although I hope it looks better.. ;) Have a look! I found it interesting!

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2011/04/isis-am01-is-subaru-sti-powered.html

[sub322]

Franze, I like your design but I sure hope this thing has doors, that would be a real deal breaker for me.
getting to old to crawl over the side and that would also mess up a really nice paint job.

[Franze]

Franze, I like your design but I sure hope this thing has doors, that would be a real deal breaker for me.
getting to old to crawl over the side and that would also mess up a really nice paint job.

Thanks for the encouragement! Im not 100% sure about having doors, but I can see the sense in having them, Ill have a look into adding some, in a concept

[ScoobySnack818]

I have just seen this and thought it could be interesting for most of us, as this is a new Subaru STI based sports car, different to the one we are looking for here, but some details such as the engine and weight are similar so I suppose the Factory Five 818 would have almost the same performance, although I hope it looks better.. ;) Have a look! I found it interesting!

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2011/04/isis-am01-is-subaru-sti-powered.html

I really hope the 818 looks nothing like this car Xabier mentioned & linked to. It is funky-looking: Way too long, at first glance it looked like one of those ghetto-limousines the guys from top gear made a few years back. Xabier, your design is light-years beyond this dutch monstrosity and I hope your some of your design cues make it in to the final vehicle.

PhyrraM- Wasn't it you who's been saying all along that this "look at me, i'm an exotic kit car" body is exactly what you don't want? Now granted, FFR would do a much better job at bringing an exotic looking package together of course, but still...

[riptide motorsport]

]Too much money and too homely!

[VF48WRX]

For those designers that are trying to keep an eye on the proposed FFR budget I figured I'd post the factory exhaust for reference.

The factory exhaust leaves the turbosharger on the right side of the car and travels low and tight to the transmission. Some early models, like the first pic, are one piece until 12" behind the FFR 818's rear bumper. These would obviously need to be cut and re-routed. Likely to a muffler. US models, and possibly others, already have a bolted flange (second pic) in a good spot to install an exhaust.

If course it's possible to use a new exhaust complete from the turbo. At cost though. As always, just info for the designer to consider.

The pics should be fairly self explainitory. Hopefully this helps those trying to 'reuse WRX parts'.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5533615995_32f489ef59.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5533615995/)
This is a slightly older than '02 motor, but there are no reals changes to be concerned with. This is also the 5 speed trans. The perspective is a bit off, but the trans is centered in the car, so the exhaust is 8"-12" off center at the catylitic convertor. You can also see that the intercooler is not directly over the engine. There is room for a clever design to route air down-n-out or up-n-out the intercooler.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5297/5533614607_a31f489a0c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5533614607/)
Top is a North American WRX, bottom is like the one in the above pic.

Pictured is an exhaust system I built for a customer who brought in a Specialty Auto Porsche 356 replica (with an EJ205 motor and trans). The tail end of this car is very short and the tail end of the transmission came way back, so it was difficult to build an exhaust system that was large (3") and still fit it under the body. I also could not use a bellmouth downpipe due to the tube frame of the car being too close to the turbo. I hope FF will leave enough space for a proper bellmouth downpipe.

http://www.speedindustry.biz/img/projects/porsche/22.jpg

[Thanas_4]

Hello, so we decided to send those two submissions and then work with something new:

1st Submition by Team_KT

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/3538/skitso39.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-15

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9805/skitso40c.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-15

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5338/skitso37.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-09


__________________________________________________ _____________________________________


2nd Submition by Team_KT

http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/6295/protasiteliki.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-08

or with that rear end

http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/9965/thanosbacksmall.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-09

So now I have to work on our second submition to finally decide which rear end it will have. Thanks to everyone that commented our designs ;)

[PhyrraM]

PhyrraM- Wasn't it you who's been saying all along that this "look at me, i'm an exotic kit car" body is exactly what you don't want? Now granted, FFR would do a much better job at bringing an exotic looking package together of course, but still...

For the most part, yes. I feel that having obvious exotic car styling will not be good for basically two reasons. First is the obvious comparisions that will be made and all the reminders of "what it is not". This car will deserve to be known for what it is and what it can do.

Second is that it will take a very large percentage of the $10K budget to pull off an exotic car. All the little details that Supercars have cost money and it will be painfully obvious if a 'mini supercar' doesn't have them. I really think some out-of-the-box ideas stand a much better chance of getting produced, with professional results, than a low slung, $200K wannabe. I think a $10K Ferrari replica is doomed to look only slightly better than what we saw on VW pans in the 70s. I'll cite the GTM as an example.....$20K and it still misses many marks.

With that train of thought, maybe something a bit retro would fit the budget better. With retro you can cheapen the details and they still look right at home, like the roadster and the Type '65 Coupe. ScottyB's design might fit this bill perfectly.

[PhyrraM]

The Isis is horrid. A bad copy of a race car.

[RMB]

Now that....is awesome! I would definitely buy that.

Rob


Hi guys. Here's a design I submitted last week. Posted these pics on the Grassroots forum but wanted to post them here also as I was following this thread too. Included both street and track versions. Cheers.


Street
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-03/c42ad194.png

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-03/2258dc3d.png

Track
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-03/95bc5b93.png

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-03/35f257c9.png

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-03/3fa3f904.png

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k533/birdhouse1/FFR-03/d77500e9.png

[readymix]

Thanas-4. I still love your design the most. Both look excellent though. Good luck :)

[olpro]

Thanas, is that side view one of the "accurate" drawings (to the template) that you are submitting? The reason I am asking is that the wheels are cheated way big.

[Olimk2]

Wheelbase looks short as well compared with other views.

[Acheron315]

What about something like this? Melkus RS2000 GTS, based off the elise. Sporty, interesting, easy to make out of fiberglass but doesn't scream "kit car"

142414251426

[phenotyp]

Unfortunately, it's impossible with the given package. The driver in the template is much, much further back in the car.

[Oppenheimer]

I have just seen this and thought it could be interesting for most of us, as this is a new Subaru STI based sports car, different to the one we are looking for here, but some details such as the engine and weight are similar so I suppose the Factory Five 818 would have almost the same performance, although I hope it looks better.. ;) Have a look! I found it interesting!

http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2011/04/isis-am01-is-subaru-sti-powered.html

OK, two thoughts. Did you notice how much that thing will cost! >$100K! 818 = bargain.

Its specs are real close to what the 818 will be (their's just a little heavier). Its using STi power, but Euro version, 2.0. Its got 275 hp, a number we should expect to meet or exceed in most 818 builds. It does 0-60 in 4.2 sec! O-M-G!

[xabier]

OK, two thoughts. Did you notice how much that thing will cost! >$100K! 818 = bargain.

Its specs are real close to what the 818 will be (their's just a little heavier). Its using STi power, but Euro version, 2.0. Its got 275 hp, a number we should expect to meet or exceed in most 818 builds. It does 0-60 in 4.2 sec! O-M-G!

Well, not really $100k, its more about $200k, in the page sais 174k and the more powerful version 200k, just too much for that car, instead I would buy a proper supercar for that money! thats the nice thing about the 818, it will give the same for a lot less!! :)

[05xtsy]

Another one of my entries, sent in a while ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/4car1.jpg

[iamnottelling]

Speedboy - Love the designs
I would however like to see you incorporate the windshield with a optional top. I think a lot of people are looking for this car to be a normal driver (not daily).
The body is the most "fun looking" that I have seen

[riptide motorsport]

Being mid engined, o5xtsy's designs have really hit the mark, the dimensions front and rear lengths are correct, some designs although quite nice have the wrong overhangs and can really only be front engined designs.....JMHO ..... Steven

[readymix]

Another one of my entries, sent in a while ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/4car1.jpg

Nicely done. The lines look great.

[bbjones121]

Not sure about on here, but there are alot on youtube. Just search 10 second subaru. Around here there are several running low 11's consistently. Mainly sti's, and one wrx that I know of. Most Subie owners are doing autox or rallyx verse 1/4 miles since it better suits the car.

I run 12.7's in my Legacy at a mile high (bandimere speedway). I am probably one of the quickest top mount intercooled subaru's around Denver, but there are MANY front mount intercooler subbie's running lower 1/4's. Here is a local shop http://www.revolutionsperformance.com/media.php with a 10.9 1/4 mile(remember that these videos are at about 5,800ft elevation, so subtract AT LEAST a sec from the 1/4 time)

[bbjones121]

That looks great! Now, how does the top come off in the summer?


Another one of my entries, sent in a while ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/4car1.jpg

[speedboy]

Speedboy - Love the designs
I would however like to see you incorporate the windshield with a optional top. I think a lot of people are looking for this car to be a normal driver (not daily).
The body is the most "fun looking" that I have seen

Thanks, I had planned to ad a hard-top to the design but just didn't have the time. I'm working on another concept that includes a top and should be ready soon. Will post pics when finished.

[bbjones121]

Here we go again. Back on this, "it can't look like a 100k+ car because it only costs $15k" topic. Everyone can add their own little things to give it that exotic finish. I had this discussion with my dad the other day. He lived in a generation where a kit car was a body put on another car's chassis. It looked great from a distance, but once you got up close and looked inside, you knew it was a kit. I feel like FFR puts together a pretty good kit on their own chassis that looks great from the outside even if you get up close to it. There may be some minor fitment adjustments that need to be made, from what I read on older kits. I think over time and the more kits that are produced, they are probably getting a lot better at it these days.

The inside looks like a kit on the cars if you don't do anything on your own to change it (to be fair though, look at the interior of one of the original type 65 coupe and you will think that 50+ million dollar car looks more like a kit than the FFR). It is up to the individual to put a little extra effort into the car to give it that stock/made from the factory exotic look. Add a different steering wheel to the GTM along with a nice touch screen stereo, add some nice padded leather stiched panels to the type 65 in a couple places, lay down some simple carpet. I think that FFR seems to be very good about getting a nice car out there for people to put together as-is and have the extra capacity for an individual to put a little bit more personal effort into it to make it GREAT.

It is pretty obvious that you look at the glass half empty.



For the most part, yes. I feel that having obvious exotic car styling will not be good for basically two reasons. First is the obvious comparisions that will be made and all the reminders of "what it is not". This car will deserve to be known for what it is and what it can do.

Second is that it will take a very large percentage of the $10K budget to pull off an exotic car. All the little details that Supercars have cost money and it will be painfully obvious if a 'mini supercar' doesn't have them. I really think some out-of-the-box ideas stand a much better chance of getting produced, with professional results, than a low slung, $200K wannabe. I think a $10K Ferrari replica is doomed to look only slightly better than what we saw on VW pans in the 70s. I'll cite the GTM as an example.....$20K and it still misses many marks.

With that train of thought, maybe something a bit retro would fit the budget better. With retro you can cheapen the details and they still look right at home, like the roadster and the Type '65 Coupe. ScottyB's design might fit this bill perfectly.

[crackedcornish]

Another one of my entries, sent in a while ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/4car1.jpg

that's sweet

[VTX]

Another one of my entries, sent in a while ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/4car1.jpg

I like that a lot. Finally, someone who seems to have the driver compartment proportioned correctly. I would say that there isn't enough rear overhang for the transmission, but with the driver that far forward maybe there is?

[crackedcornish]

I like that a lot. Finally, someone who seems to have the driver compartment proportioned correctly. I would say that there isn't enough rear overhang for the transmission, but with the driver that far forward maybe there is?

umm, maybe my thinking is messed up, but can you please explain how the passenger compartment placement is going to change how much of the transmission is going to hang out behind the rear axle

[readymix]

umm, maybe my thinking is messed up, but can you please explain how the passenger compartment placement is going to change how much of the transmission is going to hang out behind the rear axle

It wont. The body isn't going to affect at all the placement of the front stub-axles (front axles in regards to the Subaru drivetrain, not the 818) in relation to the transmission and its dimensions. I'd be interested to see the above design placed over the template to see the discrepancy.

[05xtsy]

That looks great! Now, how does the top come off in the summer?

:) You pull a latch and it just flies away like in the cult classic xXx staring Vin diesel.

[BrandonDrums]

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/04/18/ebay-find-of-the-day-alex-van-halens-murdered-out-ariel-atom/

People DO buy exo cars!!! LOOK

Wait..it's being sold on eBay....FAIL.

[05xtsy]

It wont. The body isn't going to affect at all the placement of the front stub-axles (front axles in regards to the Subaru drivetrain, not the 818) in relation to the transmission and its dimensions. I'd be interested to see the above design placed over the template to see the discrepancy.

I used the template for the wheel dimensions. There is a bit of a discrepancy, but that can be fixed with a covering panel or I can just extend the bumper. There isn't that much difference.

[crackedcornish]

I used the template for the wheel dimensions. There is a bit of a discrepancy, but that can be fixed with a covering panel or I can just extend the bumper. There isn't that much difference.

or you can polish up the tranny, and let it show too :cool:

[readymix]

or you can polish up the tranny, and let it show too :cool:

Yeah, after reading the beerbaron's blogs, and looking at some older Porsche racing designs, this would be awesome. And 05Xtsy, taking that into consideration, you're almost on the mark. I would go back over the design rear end, draw in the tranny sticking out the back, and mold the rear end you have around that feature.

What made Marilyn Monroe on the vent so sexy? She didn't cover up entirely, but she wasn't pulling her dress over her head, exposing herself. Find the right mix of class and 'showing a little' and I bet your design would be super hot. It'd be different for sure.

[Gun Bunny]

Now that....is awesome! I would definitely buy that.

Rob

That design looks like a very modern interpretation of the challenge car, which in turn looks great for a track rat. I'm not sold on the looks for a street car though :/

[PhyrraM]

Here we go again. ......It is pretty obvious that you look at the glass half empty.

Maybe. I just want to be able to have professional and proper looking results. I don't mind doing it myself, but if there is something that FFR messes up so badly the end used can't fix it - then hopefully FFR is smart enough to leave it off the design.

For example, the GTMs headlights. I've yet to see a pic where they look remotely OEM or even good. They always look like an afterthought. Some builders have done a decent job with them, but thier hands are tied from the start.

That's all I wish to avoid, details that can't be 'fixed'.

Glass half empty? Remember I am the one who stated the car will be a success regardless of what it looks like. It was others who stated it will fail if it doesn't look like what "they" wanted, or it doesn't have a top or room for the H6, helmets, luggage, etc...

[riptide motorsport]

I like the GTM headlights, so I dissagree........Steven

[BrandonDrums]

I'm with Steven, the headlights don't bother me at all. It's the fact that it doesn't have a single donor car to pull from that bothers me plus it's overkill for my goals.

Forgive me for saying this, I want this to be a mini GTM. A full bodied, nice-looking (for a kit car) go fast thing.


I like the GTM headlights, so I dissagree........Steven

[phenotyp]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p48/phenotyp/FFRdesigncontest_profile_12th_scale_driver54dcopy-1.jpg

make the best of it.

[BrandonDrums]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p48/phenotyp/FFRdesigncontest_profile_12th_scale_driver54dcopy-1.jpg

make the best of it.

Oh goodness that's elegant!

[2KWIK4U]

Forgive me for saying this, I want this to be a mini GTM. A full bodied, nice-looking (for a kit car) go fast thing.

I have to agree, If it was like the GTM that wouldn't turn me off. With that said, a new eye catching design is not a bad thing. Plenty of them have been submitted so far.

[Senger]

Looking hot, Phenotyp. Very unique direction and a beautiful sketch style to boot.

I've begun a new design direction with a removable hardtop. The front end graphics need more work, but thought it was far enough along to get some input. The rear quarter panel is split to allow for a two tone color scheme and widebody conversion. Still a ton of work to go. Thanks!

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5183/5635428480_0a89af73c4_z.jpg

[D2W]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p48/phenotyp/FFRdesigncontest_profile_12th_scale_driver54dcopy-1.jpg

make the best of it.

Cool design, me like!

[Gary in NJ]

The week 7 winner from Brewster is outstanding.

[crackedcornish]

The week 7 winner from Brewster is outstanding.

+1...I agree

[Senger]

It seems my posts are taking a while to get through approval. Why is this? This will be the last time I'll use this board as a resource. Any design feedback is appreciated. The top is removable and stows behind the occupants. Thanks.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5228/5635447785_b8757ddb99_z.jpg

[David Hodgkins]

It seems my posts are taking a while to get through approval. Why is this? This will be the last time I'll use this board as a resource. Any design feedback is appreciated. The top is removable and stows behind the occupants. Thanks.

As has been mentioned several times in this thread and others, if you have less than 10 posts and post a link, image, whatever, it goes to moderation due to our aggressive spam filter. Once you get past 10 posts, the behavior should go away.

HTH,

:)

[PhyrraM]

Something about Brewster's nose isn't right to my eyes. It looks both bulbous and pointy at the same time. That could just be the way it's drawn, the front tire looks huge compared to the back. It's also a bit too Pontiac in the front. Other than that, it looks nice. It's clearly in the same vein as Xabier's and Castilho's. "Semi-soft flowing roadster" - I'm not complaining.

[PhyrraM]

Marc..

I like the computer aided designs as it appears to give a much more realistic impression of what can actually be attained.

First impression, it looks narrow. That may not be a bad thing, it's just what popped into my head first. I think the nose is too plain. It has a large top section with a very low mouth. Maybe if the hoodline dropped faster between the fenders.

I like the overall shape, and the way the tail end in a shooting brake type of style. I like the risk you took with the rear grill - kinda like an Audi in reverse.

Overall, it looks like you tried to break up the panels into sections that could be pulled from gelcoated fiberglass molds, I like that. Also you've got intercooler air and plent of rear exhaust. Targa is also accounted for.

The side sills seem pretty wide.

Go make 10 posts....then your pics will be loaded right away.

[2KWIK4U]

Looking hot, Phenotyp. Very unique direction and a beautiful sketch style to boot.

I've begun a new design direction with a removable hardtop. The front end graphics need more work, but thought it was far enough along to get some input. The rear quarter panel is split to allow for a two tone color scheme and widebody conversion. Still a ton of work to go. Thanks!




http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5183/5635428480_0a89af73c4_z.jpg

WOW these designs just keep getting better!! This one is really nice Senger.

[BrandonDrums]

It seems my posts are taking a while to get through approval. Why is this? This will be the last time I'll use this board as a resource. Any design feedback is appreciated. The top is removable and stows behind the occupants. Thanks.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5228/5635447785_b8757ddb99_z.jpg

Just post around like these guys have said, you'll be good.

As for the design, It's awesome but it looks a bit weighty to me in all the areas that this car can afford to trim the fat. Just the size of the curved areas make it look rather large and aside from the low stance it starts to look like many of the coupe/sedan/suv crossover things like the BMW X6, Honda Crosstour (but MUUUUCH better looking). The cockpit is squeezed here to give the hour-glass look yet in the rear and in the front, where very little vertical covered area is needed it quite tall and over-sized. Great for a giant inline 6 but basically it's a planetarium of fiberglass considering a low mounted flat 4 will be all thats under there.

I appreciate the integrated rear scoop for the intercooler but we need some rear visibility. Adding glass won't do, that rear is so high that if glass was present, looking out the said glass would only show the sky.

In short, I love this design I'd honestly buy this car if it was a big AWD 350z killer (if I was considering getting one) but it's perhaps inappropriate for this platform.

Just to be clear, it's beautiful and I don't mean to criticize but in terms of the 818 it could use some visual weight-loss. This is a contender for something going up against the CTS-V coupe.

[BrandonDrums]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p48/phenotyp/FFRdesigncontest_profile_12th_scale_driver54dcopy-1.jpg

make the best of it.

As an example of what I said above, this design clearly has roughly the same actual dimensions as Senger's design. I like both plenty but phenotyp's car looks more trim by visually reducing the surface area on which to peer at.

I couldn't come up with any other way to say that, I hope that makes sense.

[phenotyp]

It seems my posts are taking a while to get through approval. Why is this? This will be the last time I'll use this board as a resource. Any design feedback is appreciated. The top is removable and stows behind the occupants. Thanks.


Hey Marc, thanks, man. Really appreciate it. I've just sort of been working these profile sketches like they're rendered tape drawings. Not a particularly fast process, but i'm working out a lot of thoughts as this develops.

Your latest dude there seems somehow... heavy? There's something very Bentley GT feeling about it. Feels like, with side intakes as big as you've got, you're going to want to open up the back a whole bunch, and I'm trying to figure out that top vent. ...and BrandonDrums seems to have covered pretty much what I was going to say, while I typed this.

Aaaanyway.... I think a lot of that visual weight stems from the fact that your front haunches are taller than the rear; other than the big scoops, there's not much that's telling me that it's a mid-engined car (though that's a difficult thing with the driver positioned as far back as the given layout has him).

[PhyrraM]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p48/phenotyp/FFRdesigncontest_profile_12th_scale_driver54dcopy-1.jpg

The overall design seems fairly retro, with a bit of 60s Corvette influence. However the style of artworks makes it really hard for me to "see" what the intent of the design is.

[Cooluser23]

How come we don't have a single design yet, that shows off the engine?

Porsche Cayman example:
http://images.gtcarlot.com/pictures/38496203.jpg

Luckily there is a company that makes a clear cover for $640
http://hip-designllc.com/images/gallery02.jpg
http://hip-designllc.com/images/gallery01.jpg

Now just some contrasting color paint:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f42/uZa/CymnEngdone.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f42/uZa/CymnEngAftr.jpg

This could really show off a Subie motor as well. (maybe with a relocated intercooler)

[crackedcornish]

How come we don't have a single design yet, that shows off the engine?

Porsche Cayman example:
http://images.gtcarlot.com/pictures/38496203.jpg

Luckily there is a company that makes a clear cover for $640
http://hip-designllc.com/images/gallery02.jpg
http://hip-designllc.com/images/gallery01.jpg

Now just some contrasting color paint:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f42/uZa/CymnEngdone.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f42/uZa/CymnEngAftr.jpg

This could really show off a Subie motor as well. (maybe with a relocated intercooler)

I guess you missed this one by 05xtsy
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/4car1.jpg

although I like the shape of this one, I'd rather not have to crawl into the back of a carpeted storage area to work on an engine/transmission

[05xtsy]

I guess you missed this one by 05xtsy
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/4car1.jpg

although I like the shape of this one, I'd rather not have to crawl into the back of a carpeted storage area to work on an engine/transmission

I could just add a part line and I could open clamshell style.

[Vman7]

Ok after working on my design for a while now, I thought I would at least show the rear Preview for right now.

There is still a lot of stuff to be done. I got the rear pretty much done, just some tweaking here and there, add exhaust, windshield, seats, shading etc.

I am not real big on the idea of a large area for the Lic. Plate, but in order to fit all sizes it had to be big enough, but that would just be a base model. I am thinking of doing one version for euro and another for Americas and Aussie, which I am thinking of putting the exhaust up in that area just below the the Lic. Plate.

This is just the Spyder version, there will also be a Coupe/Targa version as well.
The taillights are real ones (Hella, roughly $17-$30 a piece).

I had to get the rear done so I can finish the side view.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1476&d=1303274014

Let me know what you think, or have any ideas.

Well I better get back to work on this, only a month and half to go before deadline......

David

[Franze]

looking hot, phenotyp. Very unique direction and a beautiful sketch style to boot.

I've begun a new design direction with a removable hardtop. The front end graphics need more work, but thought it was far enough along to get some input. The rear quarter panel is split to allow for a two tone color scheme and widebody conversion. Still a ton of work to go. Thanks!

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5183/5635428480_0a89af73c4_z.jpg

wow! Real nice!

[readymix]

Ok after working on my design for a while now, I thought I would at least show the rear Preview for right now.

There is still a lot of stuff to be done. I got the rear pretty much done, just some tweaking here and there, add exhaust, windshield, seats, shading etc.

I am not real big on the idea of a large area for the Lic. Plate, but in order to fit all sizes it had to be big enough, but that would just be a base model. I am thinking of doing one version for euro and another for Americas and Aussie, which I am thinking of putting the exhaust up in that area just below the the Lic. Plate.

This is just the Spyder version, there will also be a Coupe/Targa version as well.
The taillights are real ones (Hella, roughly $17-$30 a piece).

I had to get the rear done so I can finish the side view.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1476&d=1303274014

Let me know what you think, or have any ideas.

Well I better get back to work on this, only a month and half to go before deadline......

David

That looks really nice!

[crackedcornish]

I could just add a part line and I could open clamshell style.

05xtsy, I'd like to see that...and a sexy/aggressive looking side scoop ahead of the rear tire for some cool air to be able to get to the engine compartment

[Senger]

Marc..

I like the computer aided designs as it appears to give a much more realistic impression of what can actually be attained.

First impression, it looks narrow. That may not be a bad thing, it's just what popped into my head first. I think the nose is too plain. It has a large top section with a very low mouth. Maybe if the hoodline dropped faster between the fenders.

I like the overall shape, and the way the tail end in a shooting brake type of style. I like the risk you took with the rear grill - kinda like an Audi in reverse.

Overall, it looks like you tried to break up the panels into sections that could be pulled from gelcoated fiberglass molds, I like that. Also you've got intercooler air and plent of rear exhaust. Targa is also accounted for.

The side sills seem pretty wide.

Go make 10 posts....then your pics will be loaded right away.

Woops, didn't catch the 10-post rule. Thanks for clueing me in guys. Great words of wisdom, Phyrra. The proportions are a bit too chunky, and it will gain a backlight as it gets revised.

Brandondrums- all great points, which hopefully will be amended. The high rear end was a move to integrate some storage compartments into the rear fenders. Needs to be packaged, however. Thanks.

[BrandonDrums]

Woops, didn't catch the 10-post rule. Thanks for clueing me in guys. Great words of wisdom, Phyrra. The proportions are a bit too chunky, and it will gain a backlight as it gets revised.

Brandondrums- all great points, which hopefully will be amended. The high rear end was a move to integrate some storage compartments into the rear fenders. Needs to be packaged, however. Thanks.

I do like the idea of storage. The front actually looks great for storage too. Just a couple small tweaks and you have a contender IMHO, I really love where you're going with it.

[BrandonDrums]

I feel like a turd replying so quick but I just saw this. It's not the official official revealed version of the Ft-86 (which will happen this week at the NY Auto Show) but supposedly it's accurate to the production version. This thing is beautiful. The 818 has to look good to compete. This won't be as light but it's got potential to steal some 818 customers for sure. Keep the designs coming!

http://wot.motortrend.com/leaked-scion-fr-concept-pictures-surface-early-69767.html

http://wot.motortrend.com/files/2011/04/scion-fr-s-concept-leak-rear-three-quarter-623x389.jpg
http://wot.motortrend.com/files/2011/04/scion-fr-s-concept-leak-front-three-quarter.jpg

[Justen]

Ok after working on my design for a while now, I thought I would at least show the rear Preview for right now.

There is still a lot of stuff to be done. I got the rear pretty much done, just some tweaking here and there, add exhaust, windshield, seats, shading etc.

I am not real big on the idea of a large area for the Lic. Plate, but in order to fit all sizes it had to be big enough, but that would just be a base model. I am thinking of doing one version for euro and another for Americas and Aussie, which I am thinking of putting the exhaust up in that area just below the the Lic. Plate.

This is just the Spyder version, there will also be a Coupe/Targa version as well.
The taillights are real ones (Hella, roughly $17-$30 a piece).

I had to get the rear done so I can finish the side view.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1476&d=1303274014

Let me know what you think, or have any ideas.

Well I better get back to work on this, only a month and half to go before deadline......

David

This looks like it has some serious potential. I like it, can't wait to see the rest of the car

[2KWIK4U]

Brandondrums- all great points, which hopefully will be amended. The high rear end was a move to integrate some storage compartments into the rear fenders. Needs to be packaged, however. Thanks.

If the engine / drivetrain are in the back then wouldn't it be easier to put some kind of storage space in the front? Or do you think there is still enough room to add storage to the back also?

[StatGSR]

If the engine / drivetrain are in the back then wouldn't it be easier to put some kind of storage space in the front? Or do you think there is still enough room to add storage to the back also?

depends on what you do with the exhaust. all the space above the transmission would be available for storage or exhaust. obviously part of the front could be free as well.

[2KWIK4U]

Ok after working on my design for a while now, I thought I would at least show the rear Preview for right now.

There is still a lot of stuff to be done. I got the rear pretty much done, just some tweaking here and there, add exhaust, windshield, seats, shading etc.

I am not real big on the idea of a large area for the Lic. Plate, but in order to fit all sizes it had to be big enough, but that would just be a base model. I am thinking of doing one version for euro and another for Americas and Aussie, which I am thinking of putting the exhaust up in that area just below the the Lic. Plate.

This is just the Spyder version, there will also be a Coupe/Targa version as well.
The taillights are real ones (Hella, roughly $17-$30 a piece).

I had to get the rear done so I can finish the side view.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1476&d=1303274014

Let me know what you think, or have any ideas.

Well I better get back to work on this, only a month and half to go before deadline......

David

I have to agree it's a nice design, can't wait to see the coupe/targa version.

[2KWIK4U]

depends on what you do with the exhaust. all the space above the transmission would be available for storage or exhaust. obviously part of the front could be free as well.

If you run the exhaust under the storage in the back, you could bake bread while you drive. :)

[Doc_FFR]

@Senger
So, I guess you'll need to install a camera to see out of the back? That's too bad, but visibility is an issue with most of these designs. Your bodyshape reminds me a little of the C3 corvette in that it pinches in heavily at the doors. (Or maybe I'm looking at it wrong.) This may lead to a very *tight* cabin (and not in the good way).
Love the rear end though.

[Doc_FFR]

Ok after working on my design for a while now, I thought I would at least show the rear Preview for right now.

There is still a lot of stuff to be done. I got the rear pretty much done, just some tweaking here and there, add exhaust, windshield, seats, shading etc.

I am not real big on the idea of a large area for the Lic. Plate, but in order to fit all sizes it had to be big enough, but that would just be a base model. I am thinking of doing one version for euro and another for Americas and Aussie, which I am thinking of putting the exhaust up in that area just below the the Lic. Plate.

This is just the Spyder version, there will also be a Coupe/Targa version as well.
The taillights are real ones (Hella, roughly $17-$30 a piece).

I had to get the rear done so I can finish the side view.


Let me know what you think, or have any ideas.

Well I better get back to work on this, only a month and half to go before deadline......

David

Looks great from the back end. It seems though with the vents and such you may run into price issues... a.k.a. you design may be too awesome to fit in the budget.

[D2W]

Ok after working on my design for a while now, I thought I would at least show the rear Preview for right now.

There is still a lot of stuff to be done. I got the rear pretty much done, just some tweaking here and there, add exhaust, windshield, seats, shading etc.

I am not real big on the idea of a large area for the Lic. Plate, but in order to fit all sizes it had to be big enough, but that would just be a base model. I am thinking of doing one version for euro and another for Americas and Aussie, which I am thinking of putting the exhaust up in that area just below the the Lic. Plate.

This is just the Spyder version, there will also be a Coupe/Targa version as well.
The taillights are real ones (Hella, roughly $17-$30 a piece).

I had to get the rear done so I can finish the side view.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1476&d=1303274014

Let me know what you think, or have any ideas.

Well I better get back to work on this, only a month and half to go before deadline......

David

I love the rear end view. Can't wait to see what the rest looks like.

[Vman7]

Looks great from the back end. It seems though with the vents and such you may run into price issues... a.k.a. you design may be too awesome to fit in the budget.

Yeah that is on my mind a lot. The Vents on the bottom half (below the Taillights) the version above is the upgrade version, the slats and mesh screen (still to be added) would be an option. The base model would just have to holes back there. As for the Vents on the humps I am working with a few ideas to try and keep it simple for production, but still look good.

I was going to go with some LED taillights, but once I looked into the prices.......OUCH! could be an upgrade option though.
Same goes with the Roll Bars, Powercoated Black would be base, Chrome or Stainless Steel would be an upgrade.

My biggest problem is the seat height, it really KILLS the overall looks, So I said the heck with the seat height. As of right now the overall height is 45" which looks good, until you take off the targa top, then the targa humps just look to high. I might go to 44" or even 43" over height.

I might just post a couple of mock up pictures showing the coupe/targa top on and off with the different heights and get some opinions. For me I would stay at around 43" height, but that's just me.

I say put the damn gas tank behind the seat or drag the damn thing behind the car......rofl.

David

[PhyrraM]

A design that doesn't "spend all the money" on frilly details and fancy molds might have enough left in the budget for a custom gas tank in place of the Subaru one.

Just sayin'....

Rear view looks good, wanna see the rest.

[D2W]

My biggest problem is the seat height, it really KILLS the overall looks, So I said the heck with the seat height. As of right now the overall height is 45" which looks good, until you take off the targa top, then the targa humps just look to high. I might go to 44" or even 43" over height.

I might just post a couple of mock up pictures showing the coupe/targa top on and off with the different heights and get some opinions. For me I would stay at around 43" height, but that's just me.

I say put the damn gas tank behind the seat or drag the damn thing behind the car......rofl.

David

Thank you, I totally agree about the gas tank and the overall height. I can't wait to see the rest of your design.

[Cooluser23]

I guess you missed this one by 05xtsy
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/4car1.jpg

although I like the shape of this one, I'd rather not have to crawl into the back of a carpeted storage area to work on an engine/transmission

No, I've missed it. Thank you for posting it. I hope more people will include engine windows into their design.

Nothing wrong with crawling into a carpeted storage area. One can always remove the carpet or storage tray.

My Fiero has a carpeted trunk behind the engine, and I never saw this as a problem when working on the car. Sometimes I put tools in the trunks when I'm working on the car, sometimes I sit/stand in the trunk when working on the engine.

I have to say, I really enjoy having a trunk behind the engine. This way people understand the 818 is "mid" engine, and not rear engine. Having a trunk in the rear, and the front makes it also easier to pack for roadtrips and track days.

Track day accessories/tools go in one trunk, and and overnight bag and things for the girlfriend go into the other trunk.

I really hope the 818 will have ample room for storage.

[RMB]

I really like what I see so far, and i can't wait to see the rest.

What programs are you guys using to design these?

Rob


Ok after working on my design for a while now, I thought I would at least show the rear Preview for right now.

There is still a lot of stuff to be done. I got the rear pretty much done, just some tweaking here and there, add exhaust, windshield, seats, shading etc.

I am not real big on the idea of a large area for the Lic. Plate, but in order to fit all sizes it had to be big enough, but that would just be a base model. I am thinking of doing one version for euro and another for Americas and Aussie, which I am thinking of putting the exhaust up in that area just below the the Lic. Plate.

This is just the Spyder version, there will also be a Coupe/Targa version as well.
The taillights are real ones (Hella, roughly $17-$30 a piece).

I had to get the rear done so I can finish the side view.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1476&d=1303274014

Let me know what you think, or have any ideas.

Well I better get back to work on this, only a month and half to go before deadline......

David

[05xtsy]

Reminds me of stavros ^^^ Porsche 918 stuff. That is what you photoshopped right?

[Reload]

Okay, hate to post this here, but I am getting no response by e-mail. I have seen HP shown as a sponsor in the GRM banner. Are HP employees eligible to participate in this contest?

[Vman7]

Reminds me of stavros ^^^ Porsche 918 stuff. That is what you photoshopped right?

Yes it is based on the Porsche 918, and yes I did it all in Photoshop........sorry I don't have BIG Bucks! to go out and buy Solid Works. I used the Porsche 918 as a base, but the rear, front, side vents won't look anything like a porsche.

Now I could do a design from scratch, but for it to look real (like a photo of real car).......takes tons of time to get all the shading done. It's a lot easier to find something close in shape, then reshape here and there add the parts you want etc. I have tons of parts for creating stuff, took a few years to collect, modify etc. like headlights, tailights, vents, you name it, but they are all based on stuff you can actually get somewhere or have made, like a rear diffuser.

[Olimk2]

FERRARI rear diffuser, no? For sure the rest scream Porsche BUT it's nicely done. Just be carefull with the size of the seats aera compared with the width of the car, the 918 is much wider than the 818...

[VTX]

Ok after working on my design for a while now, I thought I would at least show the rear Preview for right now.

There is still a lot of stuff to be done. I got the rear pretty much done, just some tweaking here and there, add exhaust, windshield, seats, shading etc.

I am not real big on the idea of a large area for the Lic. Plate, but in order to fit all sizes it had to be big enough, but that would just be a base model. I am thinking of doing one version for euro and another for Americas and Aussie, which I am thinking of putting the exhaust up in that area just below the the Lic. Plate.

This is just the Spyder version, there will also be a Coupe/Targa version as well.
The taillights are real ones (Hella, roughly $17-$30 a piece).

I had to get the rear done so I can finish the side view.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1476&d=1303274014

Let me know what you think, or have any ideas.

Well I better get back to work on this, only a month and half to go before deadline......

David

That looks great! Can't wait to see the rest!

[Vman7]

FERRARI rear diffuser, no? For sure the rest scream Porsche BUT it's nicely done. Just be carefull with the size of the seats aera compared with the width of the car, the 918 is much wider than the 818...

Yep a Ferrari F430 Diffuser, but it won't look like it when I am done. The Porsche 918 is 4" wider then the one I did, I took out 1" in the fenders, 1" in the doors (took out 4" in width), and I used 225/40-18 front tires and .255/35-18 rear tires for a base. I also got spec.s for the seats so they will fit, I went with Corbeau Clubman for a base seat.

oh btw if noboby has noticed, the so called pockets on the fenders that went through and under the spoiler are gone, it's all molded in, mostly for cost reasons.

[05xtsy]

Yes it is based on the Porsche 918, and yes I did it all in Photoshop........sorry I don't have BIG Bucks! to go out and buy Solid Works. I used the Porsche 918 as a base, but the rear, front, side vents won't look anything like a porsche.

Now I could do a design from scratch, but for it to look real (like a photo of real car).......takes tons of time to get all the shading done. It's a lot easier to find something close in shape, then reshape here and there add the parts you want etc. I have tons of parts for creating stuff, took a few years to collect, modify etc. like headlights, tailights, vents, you name it, but they are all based on stuff you can actually get somewhere or have made, like a rear diffuser.


Didn't mean to offend. It looks good. Photoshop isn't an easy skill.

[Vman7]

Didn't mean to offend. It looks good. Photoshop isn't an easy skill.

No offense taken, I guess I should have put the thing about the Solid Works in the next paragraph, it wasn't pointed at you. It just bug the hell out of me that I just can't afford it, mostly since I know how to do 3D perspective drawings by hand, it just takes a really long time (mostly the accurate ones done to scale), where once you learn something like Solid Works cuts the time way down.

before I forget, I do that sometimes.......lol when I get busy...lol
Thanks for all the comments :)

05xtsy, On your latest design, I think it is your best so far. Only thing that I can see is that the front part looks out of proportion (too small) to the rest of the car. If you do a really good targa top, that may just be a winner, mostly since it is simple design and not way over the top.

There are a lot of designs I like here, a bunch of great ideas going on, going to be real interesting what elements actually end up in the finished product.

David

[Olimk2]

that the big question!!

[AC Life]

Allow the engine bay for further development; larger engine, eg: 3.5 Litre Ecoboost.

And the DNA of a Dino Ferrari 244GT / 244GTS.

[Thanas_4]

Hello again, we are having a small break that is why we stoped posting a lot of sketches lately. Senger your design is nice, with a few touches it could improve a lot and become one of the best. We haven't sent anything till now and for sure we need to make a little bit more acurrate drawings. Here are our latest thoughts, I think I have decided for the rear of my first proposal:

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/1485/sund1a1.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-21

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3186/sundback1.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-21

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1880/sund311.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-21

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7813/skitso41.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-21

[Wilky]

Hello again, we are having a small break that is why we stoped posting a lot of sketches lately. Senger your design is nice, with a few touches it could improve a lot and become one of the best. We haven't sent anything till now and for sure we need to make a little bit more acurrate drawings. Here are our latest thoughts, I think I have decided for the rear of my first proposal:

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/1485/sund1a1.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-21

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3186/sundback1.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-21

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1880/sund311.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-21

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7813/skitso41.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-21


I am loving this design

[readymix]

Allow the engine bay for further development; larger engine, eg: 3.5 Litre Ecoboost.

And the DNA of a Dino Ferrari 244GT / 244GTS.

When you burp this up in another thread, does it still taste the same?

Also, you do realise that if they go with the ecoboost engine, that now you will have to buy a donor car with a functioning engine AND an ecoboost engine, harness, ecu, transmission.

Also, it has only been available since model year 2010 as an optional engine. Are you really going to find alot of wrecked 2010 cars for donors, or are you seriously considering calling up ford and buying a new engine and tranny for this? Remember, target price: 15,500 for donor and kit.

But definitely, Factory Five. Forget your initial plans and go with this guy's idea. Make it cost and part availability prohibitive. And require a donor car AND an engine...an engine that will likely have to be sourced new because there isn't going to be many available in junk yards. :rolleyes:

[Wildrova]

By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-21

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/3186/sundback1.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-21

.

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/1880/sund311.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-21

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7813/skitso41.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-21

Thanas,
This is still by far my fav design. I love the final rear end design and would love to dive a roadster version of this.

I like that it appears you have done what factory five asked and just designed a car and didn't fret about the chassis design, etc. Although it looks like it would be a damn close fit.

Would it be possible to see the side view overlaid on the factory five drawings??

Keep up the good work, I wish I had half your talent

[Senger]

Here are revisions showing a backlight, with a small separate opening at the rear. It is still not a benchmark in visibility, but at the same time, I didn't want to compromise the look of the low, sloping hatch. At the moment, it is a compromise between appearance and function. Also shown is a revised front end (still too generic right now), and a two-tone brushed aluminum graphic on the rear 3qtr panel as an expression of the mechanicals within. You all are right in that it is still too heavy, which will require a great deal more work. The name, "Grapnel", represents the high-performance grip and handling characteristics which the 818 will undoubtedly posess. Critiques are appreciated.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5145/5640309947_ec1083ae0a_b.jpg

[Wildrova]

Thanas,
I've had a closer look at your side view and realized I've possibly made an idiot of myself. It lines up beautifully with the chassis template - even more reason to like it. :)

[John Buzoianu]

Here are revisions showing a backlight, with a small separate opening at the rear. It is still not a benchmark in visibility, but at the same time, I didn't want to compromise the look of the low, sloping hatch. At the moment, it is a compromise between appearance and function. Also shown is a revised front end (still too generic right now), and a two-tone brushed aluminum graphic on the rear 3qtr panel as an expression of the mechanicals within. You all are right in that it is still too heavy, which will require a great deal more work. The name, "Grapnel", represents the high-performance grip and handling characteristics which the 818 will undoubtedly posess. Critiques are appreciated.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5145/5640309947_ec1083ae0a_b.jpg

in a way it kinda reminds me of the Ferrari FF concept
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IP2BRhYArlM/TTmzCQJ_ldI/AAAAAAAAIkc/JmqkdVM42b8/s640/2012-ferrari-ff-side-view.jpg
though i like your design more than the FF

[olpro]

V-man7,
If you want to get into 3D, you might check out Rhino. If is much better for body surfaces than Solid Works anyway and much less money.
On Photoshop, there are lots of ways to use it that aren’t that time consuming so I don’t buy the necessity to take other’s work as a starting point.


Senger, I think your 3D modeling is very clean but you have way too much offset at the main body section, just to get that big shelf on the bottom. As a result the door section is narrow and way too vertical. If you have 8” of offset there you could make the design work with 2” and it would look much better. I see a lot of people here overstating these offsets so you are not alone.
Also I would agree with others who have complained about too much mass in the front. If you could slim it up and level the belt line, the car would sit better.
The backlite you show is so high and level that it is adding a lot of weight (visual and actual) and would do nothing other than catch the heat from the sun.
I would also suggest studying door cuts, especially at the hinge pillar. If they aren’t pretty much vertical, the door will swing up too much and tend to smash down on people. Plus your door cut is too far rearward relative to the seat to swing one's legs out.
I do like your sense of form and your design is very original.

[bbjones121]

I would also suggest studying door cuts, especially at the hinge pillar. If they aren’t pretty much vertical, the door will swing up too much and tend to smash down on people...

I would much rather the door smash an idiot who can't get in and out of my car than have an idiot smashing my door on a curb opening it.

[bradley_norris]

Nice work on the Grapnel. Looks like a quite strong Bentley/Bugatti vibe.

Side profile looks a bit like the Continental.
http://www.cariii.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Bentley-Continental-GT-Speed-1.jpg

Rear reminds me of the Bugatti horseshoe grill.
http://www.carstylingtips.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/dsc05453.jpg

Very attractive!

- Bradley Norris

[olpro]

There is no need for either situation, if the door is designed properly in the first place. This isn't exactly rocket science.


On the other hand, it is probably unreasonable to expect too much from the kids showing their drawings here.

[bbjones121]

There is no need for either situation, if the door is designed properly in the first place. This isn't exactly rocket science.


On the other hand, it is probably unreasonable to expect too much from the kids showing their drawings here.

Pretty harsh to the people showing drawings

[olpro]

Why do you say that? This thread is not just for professionals. I am not making value judgments here, unlike you.

The only reason I brought up the door cut issue in the first place was that Senger seems to be a little more into the functionality issues, with his nicely done and highly detailed 3D modeling. He actually put on door cuts and it looks like he thought them out - somewhat at least.

[readymix]

Pretty harsh to the people showing drawings

Don't mind him. If you go read his posts, you get the image in your head of him goose stepping around a design studio demanding the designer's sketches to be actual, production ready blueprints and not just idea sketches. And if they aren't, he verbally berates them in a German accent and then brutalizes their fingers with a metal ruler. Then he tosses their sketches in the trash and tells them to start again.

Some people just have a hard time getting over themselves. Once the judging is over with, and the official design is posted, condescending posts like that one will become banal and pointless, making them much easier to ignore them like they should have been in the first place.

[riptide motorsport]

behave boys.

[bbjones121]

Haha, that sounds about right.

I really want to see Olpro's design submission. Is it shown anywhere?

[Oppenheimer]

...you get the image in your head of him goose stepping around a design studio demanding the designer's sketches to be actual, production ready blueprints and not just idea sketches. And if they aren't, he verbally berates them in a German accent and then brutalizes their fingers with a metal ruler. Then he tosses their sketches in the trash and tells them to start again.

Some people just have a hard time getting over themselves.

+1, and lol.

[olpro]

readymix, bbjones and Oppenheimer,
Please forgive me for not dumbing-down my comments to a level to which you would be comfortable.
Besides, I would never use a METAL ruler…

[Rotr8]

Don't mind him. If you go read his posts, you get the image in your head of him goose stepping around a design studio demanding the designer's sketches to be actual, production ready blueprints and not just idea sketches. And if they aren't, he verbally berates them in a German accent and then brutalizes their fingers with a metal ruler. Then he tosses their sketches in the trash and tells them to start again.
I still laugh at post like this from people who have no idea how to participate in a real objective crit. Everything Olpro has said is in fact true and completely objective. If you get your feelings hurt over realistic criticism you will never be able to be competative and your designs will never get better.


Some people just have a hard time getting over themselves. Once the judging is over with, and the official design is posted, condescending posts like that one will become banal and pointless, making them much easier to ignore them like they should have been in the first place.
Actually the opposite will happen, people(potential customers) will wonder why the car CAN'T look like the sketch if not entirely thought out...

[bbjones121]

readymix, bbjones and Oppenheimer,
Please forgive me for not dumbing-down my comments to a level to which you would be comfortable.
Besides, I would never use a METAL ruler…

Man... Rotr8... you really want to side with someone like this. The objective criticism is fine. This is about a mocking/belittling comment from Olpro. You are defending an inconsiderate member, not "just" an accurate, objective critic(if you say so).

Word of advice, if your friend, sibling, and/or wife ever come up to you and ask if an outfit they are trying on makes them look fat, think carefully about your response. There are always ways to show objective criticism with tact and consideration. I know it takes extra effort and wisdom to do so, but I believe it can be done. I am not perfect on this one and I have tried to edit my posts to make them more compassionate and understanding, but some people do not even try and it is pretty pathetic in my opinion.

[readymix]

On the other hand, it is probably unreasonable to expect too much from the kids showing their drawings here.

I was responding to that ^^. I am not questioning anyone's ability to design cars or their experience, or how constructive or cooperative discussion works. That sentence right there is condescending and does nothing to aid in the discussion or creative process of those that are submitting things. The design competition is open to EVERYONE. So, yeah, you are going to have "kids" submitting their "drawings." I'm not the least bit butthurt about it, I'm the first person that thinks tough love and objective criticism works better than coddling. But calling people in this thread "kids" is simply insulting, and doesn't help anyone achieve or correct anything. Give your objective criticism in a manner that doesn't involve you following up with a general dismissal of a large group of people that are submitting designs by speaking of them as if they are somehow invalid and childish.

[05xtsy]

Don't mind him. If you go read his posts, you get the image in your head of him goose stepping around a design studio demanding the designer's sketches to be actual, production ready blueprints and not just idea sketches. And if they aren't, he verbally berates them in a German accent and then brutalizes their fingers with a metal ruler. Then he tosses their sketches in the trash and tells them to start again.

Some people just have a hard time getting over themselves. Once the judging is over with, and the official design is posted, condescending posts like that one will become banal and pointless, making them much easier to ignore them like they should have been in the first place.

Honestly though, harsh criticism is needed. And Olpro's comments are typical. He isn't just saying... "yup, looks good" when he thinks this or that needs work. You really need to set emotions aside if you are going to post your work for public opinion. I only had one professor at school that laid into me and pushed me to my limits, I got more skethching, rendering and work alltogether done that quarter. Granted I whent to bed every night by passing out from exhaustion, but whatever it takes I guess.

[05xtsy]

Olpro, did you submit anything? I'm not meanging this as rude, just aksing in general because I didn't see it.....steps away from eggshells

[Vman7]

[QUOTE=olpro;16841]V-man7,
If you want to get into 3D, you might check out Rhino. If is much better for body surfaces than Solid Works anyway and much less money.
On Photoshop, there are lots of ways to use it that aren’t that time consuming so I don’t buy the necessity to take other’s work as a starting point.

Not sure how to answer that. I was going to write something, but not worth the bother. It's not worth getting into a flaming war. Your entitled to your opinion.

Let's just say I haven't gone to school or have had any training of any kind, and have been doing graphics since the '70s.

And yes I do expect constructional criticism, but not belittling.

[readymix]

Honestly though, harsh criticism is needed. And Olpro's comments are typical. He isn't just saying... "yup, looks good" when he thinks this or that needs work. You really need to set emotions aside if you are going to post your work for public opinion. I only had one professor at school that laid into me and pushed me to my limits, I got more skethching, rendering and work alltogether done that quarter. Granted I whent to bed every night by passing out from exhaustion, but whatever it takes I guess.

Read my other post, I agree that being critical is required. You had a harsh and critical prof in school, that's fine. But after being harsh and critical with regards to your submissions did he finish up his critique by saying, "But it figures you and the rest of the students submit what amounts to crappy pencil sketches for designs because you're all children. I'm not working with REAL designers here."

[PhyrraM]

Those that have knowledge over and above the average shouldn't simply point that fact out, they should also be teaching it.

However, I suppose that's just an old way of thinking in this modern, competive world. Sad...

[Rotr8]

Man... Rotr8... you really want to side with someone like this. The objective criticism is fine. This is about a mocking/belittling comment from Olpro. You are defending an inconsiderate member, not "just" an accurate, objective critic(if you say so).

Word of advice, if your friend, sibling, and/or wife ever come up to you and ask if an outfit they are trying on makes them look fat, think carefully about your response. There are always ways to show objective criticism with tact and consideration. I know it takes extra effort and wisdom to do so, but I believe it can be done. I am not perfect on this one and I have tried to edit my posts to make them more compassionate and understanding, but some people do not even try and it is pretty pathetic in my opinion.
Im not taking anyone's side at all, and as your reference to significant others, I really dont see the comparison here dealing with people you care about has nothing to do with compiling a crit.


I was responding to that ^^. I am not questioning anyone's ability to design cars or their experience, or how constructive or cooperative discussion works. That sentence right there is condescending and does nothing to aid in the discussion or creative process of those that are submitting things. The design competition is open to EVERYONE. So, yeah, you are going to have "kids" submitting their "drawings." I'm not the least bit butthurt about it, I'm the first person that thinks tough love and objective criticism works better than coddling. But calling people in this thread "kids" is simply insulting, and doesn't help anyone achieve or correct anything. Give your objective criticism in a manner that doesn't involve you following up with a general dismissal of a large group of people that are submitting designs by speaking of them as if they are somehow invalid and childish.

yeah I guess so, but honestly the people who post on here just to pat others on the back for trying doesn't advance the conversation either.


well I guess that does it for my monthly reply, choa...

[olpro]

Readymix,
The comment about “kids” was not meant to be dismissive. The fact is that many, if not most, of the drawings being shown here are from students, probably taking Industrial Design or Transportation Design at the handful of colleges that have such courses (some of them may even be still in high school). The vast majority of these are guys in their twenties, which is a “kid” to an old fart like me.

And by the way, I haven’t heard any complaints from any of the “kids” who are actually showing their ideas on this thread. If they are students, then they are probably a lot more open to constructive critiques than you are giving them credit for.

And at least I didn’t liken them to being some kind of NAZI – and telling people that I and my comments should just be ignored. Now THAT is being dismissive.

O5xtsy, thanks for your comments, which I just saw.
I have not entered anything here and probably won’t. The recent work I am now doing is for a project that I intend to build, and submitting it would relinquish my design rights to FF5. Besides, until they get their act together on the judging panel (which has been promised for QUITE a while), I wouldn’t recommend anybody submit their designs.
I may post some older work just to get people off my back.

[2KWIK4U]

I know what looks good to me.

I have been a mechanic most of my life and if the design has to be changed to meet certain requirements or details, Factory Five will be taking care of that anyway. As was stated, harsh criticism may be used but there is a tactful way of "telling someone to go to hell, so that he looks forward to the trip" so to speak. ;)

[Cr8tr]

C'mon guys don't take it so seriously....its just a constest. Have fun! There's always going to be criticisms and that is life. Just be careful who advice you take, but be patient with those who supplies. Olpro knows his stuff. Here's a quick advice I gave Arif on his design. Instead of telling him what could be done I took his designed and photoshop it what I had in mind. I guess action speak louder than words.

[BrandonDrums]

I think we're being more critical of the criticizers than we are being critics of the work submitted on this forum by designers actually seeking constructive criticism from designers and consumers alike.

Make sense?

[readymix]

C'mon guys don't take it so seriously....its just a constest. Have fun! There's always going to be criticisms and that is life. Just be careful who advice you take, but be patient with those who supplies. Olpro knows his stuff. Here's a quick advice I gave Arif on his design. Instead of telling him what could be done I took his designed and photoshop it what I had in mind. I guess action speak louder than words.

And since I feel like my contributions (if you can call them that) so far to this thread have been completely offtopic and detrimental to the advancement of the designs, let me go ahead and offer some opinions.

I'm not sure if your photoshopping was meant to be more of a visual aid than a overall design, but I'm going to roll with it like it was a full proper edit and critique accordingly as I feel it may help bring it back around for Arif. While I will agree that the hard edge through the door was a bit harsh and too strong for the overall soft edged feel of the car, I do feel that the line and the idea behind the line itself fit well with the design. By removing it entirely, it makes the car look more like a boat. A raft actually. The door is too big and flat as it sits in your edit. Not that it needs to be really busy, but that line seemed to tie the lines in the front to the back. The repositioned cut of the door makes sense, but the line was too straight down. The car has good curves. Play with that. Here's my quick, rough sketch suggestions...

1496

I'll re-iterate, this was a rough sketch of lines, it wasn't meant to be a final edit or anything. Just to illustrate what I'm saying. The vent on the rear fender looks good, since you removed the front to back slope body line, I figured I'd try something different. I'm lazy, so I didn't do any gradients to show depth or features, but if you look at the rough line I added from the rear vent to the front door seam, you could sink that seam in a couple inches to give Arif that front vent he was trying to go for. Have the vent exit the fender instead. At the bottom of the door, I adjusted the lower edge of the door seam you put on there, angling it back a bit to help with the curves. I angled it into the bottom edge of that lower vent since it seemed a logical place to tie the line back in.

[readymix]

I guess what I like most about Arif's design overall is the severe lack of "batmobile" accents. The curves are smooth and elegant, not swoopy and over exaggerated. There aren't useless vents and scoops all over it, the air scoop/inlets that he used are appropriately sized, not gaping. It has a European exotic feel, Italian look. It looks the part, doesn't go over the top, but isn't bland and boring either. Nice work Arif, you're on the right track. If you simply softened some of the hard edges on the doors and rear section, you would really tie the car together beautifully.

[Cr8tr]

Your point is valid. I thought about caring the vent line as well when i was revising it. I left it b/c it was true to his idea. But I'm not here to design his car for him by making all the details connect. I want to show him the big picture visually if you move your dash to axle and removed the hardline by adding consistency lines. You'll get a cleaner design. "less is more". In this case.
And since I feel like my contributions (if you can call them that) so far to this thread have been completely offtopic and detrimental to the advancement of the designs, let me go ahead and offer some opinions.

I'm not sure if your photoshopping was meant to be more of a visual aid than a overall design, but I'm going to roll with it like it was a full proper edit and critique accordingly as I feel it may help bring it back around for Arif. While I will agree that the hard edge through the door was a bit harsh and too strong for the overall soft edged feel of the car, I do feel that the line and the idea behind the line itself fit well with the design. By removing it entirely, it makes the car look more like a boat. A raft actually. The door is too big and flat as it sits in your edit. Not that it needs to be really busy, but that line seemed to tie the lines in the front to the back. The repositioned cut of the door makes sense, but the line was too straight down. The car has good curves. Play with that. Here's my quick, rough sketch suggestions...

1496

I'll re-iterate, this was a rough sketch of lines, it wasn't meant to be a final edit or anything. Just to illustrate what I'm saying. The vent on the rear fender looks good, since you removed the front to back slope body line, I figured I'd try something different. I'm lazy, so I didn't do any gradients to show depth or features, but if you look at the rough line I added from the rear vent to the front door seam, you could sink that seam in a couple inches to give Arif that front vent he was trying to go for. Have the vent exit the fender instead. At the bottom of the door, I adjusted the lower edge of the door seam you put on there, angling it back a bit to help with the curves. I angled it into the bottom edge of that lower vent since it seemed a logical place to tie the line back in.

[readymix]

Agreed 100%. In his design, less is definitely more. A smoother line through the door would make all the other smooth lines pop alot more. The hard edge really detracts from the smooth silhouette the overall body shape projects.

[olpro]

In response to requests to show some artwork...

This is some old work, done when I was a “kid” back in Detroit.
GM Design Staff: Firebird rendering for Motor Trend, 1966 and GM Design Staff: GTO rendering for Motor Trend, 1967
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s107/aflo41/67fbdraw.jpg
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s107/aflo41/GTO-1.jpg
This is a little more recent. The Maxima proposal is from 1980. The Z proposal is from about 1999, the little dune car from maybe 2002
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s107/aflo41/Maxima1980.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/allanflowers/DECZcopy.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/allanflowers/mstill1S.jpg
These sketches are rejects from my current project, drawn early 2010
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/allanflowers/img042A1copy.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/allanflowers/img037copy.jpg

[Vman7]

Olpro - Nice work, no doubt. Some of us just don't have the formal education that you do and or access to software or just can't afford the software. As for me the only education I have is some drafting in mech. and Arch. from way back in the mid - late '70s in Troy, MI where I grew up. Photoshop and Illustrator I have learned what I can on my own, and still have a ton to learn. I am old school, everything by hand on paper. I mostly do logos and drafting style designs, including 3D perspectives where you have to plot everything for the design which without software is time consuming, which you are well aware of being that you did design work for GM Tech center. Speaking of that one of my best friends Dad was a Senior draftsman there way back, not even sure if he is still alive.

Anyhoot......I just work with what little knowledge and the tools I have, and do the best I can :)

David

[Vman7]

Too many names to keep track of, but from the ones I remember without going through all the posts again. I think Thanas and I think it's Arif's design (the white one) 05sty and a few others that are pretty good and are more practical.

[Oppenheimer]

Everything Olpro has said is in fact true and completely objective.

You mean like when he said "On the other hand, it is probably unreasonable to expect too much from the kids showing their drawings here. "

[Vman7]

Ok here are some side view "mockups" I still have a lot to do.

The overall height is 44" with a coupe/targa top, Porsche 918 is 43". I am using the Miata 3rd gen. windshield and side mirrors. In order to use the Miata Windshield it would have to be tucked down in the cowl section.

Ignore the front and rear tail section for now it's still inwork, plus the side venting, not done with that area yet.

I took 9" out of the wheelbase, but left the cockpit size the same in length. The wheelwells can handle up to a 25.5" tire.

Everything fits to the FFR drawings, except the seat height, which is pretty close, about 2-3" lower.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1498&d=1303434496

The next picture is a comparison between the Porsche 918 and the Vantage.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1497&d=1303434495

Let me know what you think or any ideas.

Thanks,
David

[Olimk2]

You should modify more in order to have your own design, still a shortened 918 now . ffr"818" doesn't mean that!!!LOL
There is already someone with a twicked 918, he had the same comments...