Open Design Discussion and What's NEXT!

[bbjones121]

Keep the designs flowing, the more the merrier.
Agreed

[PhyrraM]

Not intending to single you out PhyrraM...

I don't care if it goes like stink. If it looks like the "New Manx" or one of those Toyota Cubes, most will not be buying it.

No worries. I'm thowing out a pretty big target ATM. ;)

I agree. There are many design languages I won't buy either. But there is somebody who will. Somebody buys enough of those ugly Scions to keep them in production. :confused:

Either way, the chances of an ugly 818 are very slim. Considering the contest, the forum feedback, and FFRs history - nobody should be worried in the least. The GTM still has about a 15% 'kitcar' look to it (in pictures). Dave has stated they can, and will, do better on this car. As said before, it's all about the dialog and 'wasting' time to see what official FFR info leaks next. I'm really jonesing for a leaked go-kart photo.

[bbjones121]

Don't we get another weekly winner today?

[Kasmodean]

A clever design/designer can use the high pressure under the car and the low pressure on/near the rear deck to passively move a surprisingly large volume of air over the intercooler. No scoop needed. Many of the currently posted designs can/could incorporate such a system very easily and likely cheaply.

Agreed, if the aero is correct, a scope wouldn't be needed and I think you mean high pressure under the intercooler not the car (high pressure under the car is not good for car stability). This can be done by pulling air in from the side vents/scoops and a vented deck. The shape of the deck can even help create a low pressure zone.

[Reload]

Factory Five Racer preliminary concept created from sketches by my little boy.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5269/5574681934_a265e05aaa_b.jpg

This was designed to be simple, clean, and a bit differentiated. We were aiming for something not too modern to go out of style. And not to dressy to be compared to exotics. And he required that it have some form of the color red.

Thoughts?

-Reload

[PhyrraM]

Agreed, if the aero is correct, a scope wouldn't be needed and I think you mean high pressure under the intercooler not the car (high pressure under the car is not good for car stability). This can be done by pulling air in from the side vents/scoops and a vented deck. The shape of the deck can even help create a low pressure zone.

From my (very basic) understanding, high pressure naturally develops under a car. Providing a path of release through the intercooler should help with stability. If I'm wrong the side scoop/vent also works too! win/win.

[bbjones121]

From my (very basic) understanding, high pressure naturally develops under a car. Providing a path of release through the intercooler should help with stability. If I'm wrong the side scoop/vent also works too! win/win.

You just want to make sure you are not sandblasting the intercooler with road gravel, sand, and debris.

[Steve91T]

You just want to make sure you are not sandblasting the intercooler with road gravel, sand, and debris.

No more than a front mount IC or radiator. Probably less actually.

As long as the IC has ducting from the bottom of the car to the top of the car, it'll work really well while at speed. It'll also add downforce.

Steve

[VTX]

Well, this is my two cents on the looks discussion.

I think the 818 HAS to look cool or people won't buy it. At least I won't. I am a member over on exocars.net and was looking at the SL-R for a long time, but when I finally saw the new version my reaction was "meh" and I moved on.

I think it really just depends on what you are going to do with the car. If I was going to be taking the car to the track then I wouldn't care about looks. I'd get whatever I could afford and thought was the fastest for the type of racing I wanted to do. But what I really want is NOT a track car. I want a car that is fun to drive on the street. And in my book "fun" is not defined solely on performance, but it is a total package that encompasses a lot of factors. Performance IMHO is just one aspect of what makes a street car "fun". Looks is another big aspect. I realize that there will always be someone who has a car that is better/faster out there, so I'm not looking to have the best performance. I'd be satisfied with something that is faster than 99% of the cars out there on the road, looks really cool, handles great, is easy to work on, sounds cool, etc.

I guess when I read about this contest that's sort of the impression I got, is that this was a street car that could be taken to the track and raced also. So, I am definitely hoping for a car that looks really cool.

Anyway, I am working on a design and I think I have a somewhat unique idea that could satisfy the exo-car/track day guys, as well as guys who want an "exotic" looking street car, while still being practical from a manufacturing and cost standpoint. I'm not going to be posting my design though. At least not yet. It will take me a while to finish it.

[bbjones121]

No more than a front mount IC or radiator. Probably less actually.

As long as the IC has ducting from the bottom of the car to the top of the car, it'll work really well while at speed. It'll also add downforce.

Steve

I don't know if I follow the logic of this. You could reduce or eliminate all gravel and debris from hitting your front intercooler or radiator by staying far enough behind the car in front of you. Whereas if you are driving at speed, your car creates turbulance underneath while you moving. I don't think I have ever driven over a piece of cardboard on the highway that didn't get picked up as a drove over it and hit my undercarraige.

[PhyrraM]

Factory Five Racer preliminary concept created from sketches by my little boy.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5269/5574681934_a265e05aaa_b.jpg

This was designed to be simple, clean, and a bit differentiated. We were aiming for something not too modern to go out of style. And not to dressy to be compared to exotics. And he required that it have some form of the color red.

Thoughts?

-Reload

I like the very short overhangs, front and rear. I like the silver accent-into-rollbar. The inset "FF" panel could be made removable to satify both EXO and fullbody camps. The grill opening and the plastic 'canopies' in the back are my detractors. Overall- very cool. I'd like to see where you go with any revisions.

[bbjones121]

That looks almost identical to the SMART roadster

[MikeK]

Well, you're right about people buying fancy cars because of the image they provide and with the part about people who buy exo cars are only concerned about performance.

What I'm saying is, there are hardily any buyers of exo cars. People build the '65 roadster because they are building something special that makes them feel like a rockstar. Same with the GTM, '65 Coupe, '33 coupe etc.

This car HAS to be cool, not just perform well. When you pour your heart and soul into creating something like a car, the outcome has to be special on multiple accounts. Otherwise you're looking to explain yourself over and over on why you spend 6 months building the worlds most unpractical and silly looking machine to go around some cones every few weekends assuming it's not raining and less than 100 miles away. I can't imagine a car I'd rather drive LESS than a dune buggy.

If this car performs well exo guys will buy it (that's like 5 people) if it looks good and performs well, then I guess that brings in some more folks....
What he said

[xabier]

Hi all again! I have been quite busy lately but I managed to find time to work on my design, but for now I can only show you the front render, I have the rear almost decided so that will be the next step.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-amarillo.jpg

This one is yellow but I have tried it in green, red, blue and orange so if anybody wants to see any other color just tell me.

After I finish with the rear I am going to work on a more track oriented version of this car, but for now this is all! Tell me what you think of it please, thanks!

[bbjones121]

Looks very nice and unique!


Hi all again! I have been quite busy lately but I managed to find time to work on my design, but for now I can only show you the front render, I have the rear almost decided so that will be the next step.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-amarillo.jpg

This one is yellow but I have tried it in green, red, blue and orange so if anybody wants to see any other color just tell me.

After I finish with the rear I am going to work on a more track oriented version of this car, but for now this is all! Tell me what you think of it please, thanks!

[Rotr8]

my crit is over on GRM,,, good job xabier...

[BrandonDrums]

Hi all again! I have been quite busy lately but I managed to find time to work on my design, but for now I can only show you the front render, I have the rear almost decided so that will be the next step.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-amarillo.jpg

This one is yellow but I have tried it in green, red, blue and orange so if anybody wants to see any other color just tell me.

After I finish with the rear I am going to work on a more track oriented version of this car, but for now this is all! Tell me what you think of it please, thanks!

Gorgeous! Can you just pop a targa top on there? It would be easy to do...The windows can be plastic for all I care.

[Oppenheimer]

He designed it for a Targa. The original didn't have that crossbar across the back.

[Steve91T]

Hi all again! I have been quite busy lately but I managed to find time to work on my design, but for now I can only show you the front render, I have the rear almost decided so that will be the next step.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-amarillo.jpg

This one is yellow but I have tried it in green, red, blue and orange so if anybody wants to see any other color just tell me.

After I finish with the rear I am going to work on a more track oriented version of this car, but for now this is all! Tell me what you think of it please, thanks!

Wow. I can't wait to see more angles. And also with the targa on. Beautiful.

[Oppenheimer]

Xabier, Por favor, queremos vistan los otros colores (especialmente gris y naranja)

[VTX]

Hi all again! I have been quite busy lately but I managed to find time to work on my design, but for now I can only show you the front render, I have the rear almost decided so that will be the next step.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-amarillo.jpg

This one is yellow but I have tried it in green, red, blue and orange so if anybody wants to see any other color just tell me.

After I finish with the rear I am going to work on a more track oriented version of this car, but for now this is all! Tell me what you think of it please, thanks!

Love it! Looks great!

Can't wait to see some more angles.

[Steve91T]

I don't know if I follow the logic of this. You could reduce or eliminate all gravel and debris from hitting your front intercooler or radiator by staying far enough behind the car in front of you. Whereas if you are driving at speed, your car creates turbulance underneath while you moving. I don't think I have ever driven over a piece of cardboard on the highway that didn't get picked up as a drove over it and hit my undercarraige.

Sure you can stay a long ways behind other cars, but it's not practical. Especially when on the track.

As far as the rear mounted IC picking up junk off the road. Sure, small bits of sand will get up there, but it would take a lot to even get close to damaging the IC. Small rocks and debris that causes real damage to an IC will not be picked up, travel upward through plumbing, and hit the IC. On my MR2, I had a top mounted IC. I had a home made scoop that was under the car and hung very low, below the bottom of the car. I had 3" ducting that went straight to the IC. I drove it like this for many months and never found any sand or dirt anywhere.

Trust me, dirt and debris isn't an issue.

Steve

[bbjones121]

Good to hear. I am glad you have real world application to vouch for that design. It would definitely be tougher to get a washer/ sprayer down there to clean off the dirt and grime.


Sure you can stay a long ways behind other cars, but it's not practical. Especially when on the track.

As far as the rear mounted IC picking up junk off the road. Sure, small bits of sand will get up there, but it would take a lot to even get close to damaging the IC. Small rocks and debris that causes real damage to an IC will not be picked up, travel upward through plumbing, and hit the IC. On my MR2, I had a top mounted IC. I had a home made scoop that was under the car and hung very low, below the bottom of the car. I had 3" ducting that went straight to the IC. I drove it like this for many months and never found any sand or dirt anywhere.

Trust me, dirt and debris isn't an issue.

Steve

[PhyrraM]

Gorgeous. I would LOVE to see the other colors. I would also like to see (just for curiosity) what a 'cheaper' headlight might look like. Stay the same shape in the body, but exposed projectors on a black insert instead of a clear plastic cover.

Love the addition of the targa bar and a fairly large rear window area. Are the side mirrors close enough to a production car to be considered a cheap 'off the shelf' item? Also is the windshield a existing item?

I think choosing to leave the hood simple was the right choice, it's very clean and sleek to match the rest of the design. The race version can add some vents, of course.

I like how the side rockers seem to look finished and professional, but still are one piece with the body for cost concerns. Many designs seem to need a pronounced rocker, this one looks perfect without one.

Almost forgot...LOVE that it doesn't climb or 'grow' in the back. Many of the designs are getting very 'tailheavy' visually.

[crackedcornish]

Hi all again! I have been quite busy lately but I managed to find time to work on my design, but for now I can only show you the front render, I have the rear almost decided so that will be the next step.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-amarillo.jpg

This one is yellow but I have tried it in green, red, blue and orange so if anybody wants to see any other color just tell me.

After I finish with the rear I am going to work on a more track oriented version of this car, but for now this is all! Tell me what you think of it please, thanks!
OK your design is starting to grow on me, but I'd like to see some changes....just to see if they make it more eye grabbing

nose/hood lowered
hood mounted exhaust vent for the radiator (for better downforce on the front end)
a larger, more aggressively styled side intake vent
smaller/no sail panels behind the targa bar so there's less of a blind spot
some body lines indicating that both the front and rear bodywork will be hinge mounted (clamshell style bodywork)

[kach22i]

Somehow the gold car seems smaller, lower and stouter than I would imagine the templates would allow for.

Are the tires/wheels by any chance just a little oversized?

It's looks pretty good, the character is somewhat Japanese import-ish.

Difficult to design an "American" looking car when almost (Fiero exception to rule) all of our examples for a mid-engined car for the last 40 years are European or Far Eastern.

[xabier]

Here goes other 3 colours hope you still like it!

I will try to implement all or at least most of your requests, at least to see how it looks that way, although in the end it may not be changed in some aspects...

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-gris.jpg
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-naranja.jpg
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-rojo.jpg

[xabier]

Somehow the gold car seems smaller, lower and stouter than I would imagine the templates would allow for.

Are the tires/wheels by any chance just a little oversized?

It's looks pretty good, the character is somewhat Japanese import-ish.

Difficult to design an "American" looking car when almost (Fiero exception to rule) all of our examples for a mid-engined car for the last 40 years are European or Far Eastern.

Yes, I also think the wheels are a bit too big, but that will be fitted on the side view when their real size is decided, and no, it is not smaller than in the templates, I have a couple of side views done and the length looks right.

[keys2heaven]

I'd like to see it in redm black and blue as well as gray and orange.

[Oppenheimer]

I like how the side rockers seem to look finished and professional, but still are one piece with the body for cost concerns.

Actually, I think it might be more difficult for FFR to prodcue it this way (compared to if rockers were separately molded pieces). A key goal is paintless gelcoat panels. The current FFR Roadster needs a mold line just behind the headlights to allow the body to be produced as one, large piece. This has to be sanded down then filled before paint. I'm thinking smaller, individual panels are going to be key to no mold lines, allowing the paintless solution.

[keys2heaven]

Here goes other 3 colours hope you still like it!

I will try to implement all or at least most of your requests, at least to see how it looks that way, although in the end it may not be changed in some aspects...

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-rojo.jpg

Drool. :p And if FF kept the red gelcoat panels, then we're golden.

[bbjones121]

Still looks great!

[Oppenheimer]

Here goes other 3 colours hope you still like it!

I will try to implement all or at least most of your requests, at least to see how it looks that way, although in the end it may not be changed in some aspects...

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-gris.jpg
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-naranja.jpg
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-rojo.jpg

Wow! I'd like one of each.

[xabier]

Gorgeous. I would LOVE to see the other colors. I would also like to see (just for curiosity) what a 'cheaper' headlight might look like. Stay the same shape in the body, but exposed projectors on a black insert instead of a clear plastic cover.

Love the addition of the targa bar and a fairly large rear window area. Are the side mirrors close enough to a production car to be considered a cheap 'off the shelf' item? Also is the windshield a existing item?

I think choosing to leave the hood simple was the right choice, it's very clean and sleek to match the rest of the design. The race version can add some vents, of course.

I like how the side rockers seem to look finished and professional, but still are one piece with the body for cost concerns. Many designs seem to need a pronounced rocker, this one looks perfect without one.

Almost forgot...LOVE that it doesn't climb or 'grow' in the back. Many of the designs are getting very 'tailheavy' visually.

Thanks a lot for your words PhyrraM, I have just attached some more colors. ;)
I added the targa bar, apart from the practical aspect of a targa top, because on the chassis templates I saw that the rollcage was a horizontal bar, so I thought this way would fit better.
And about the hood, low cost headlights... I think I will add those on the track oriented version, applying the "Less is more" so used on nowadays special editions (Porsche Gt2/GT3, BMW M3 GTS...) where avery unnecessary material is removed, that is the phylosophy I am going to have in mind for the track version.

[Oppenheimer]

Ahora bien, cuando podemos vistan los otros lados? No podemos esperar mas!

[xabier]

Ahora bien, cuando podemos vistan los otros lados? No podemos esperar mas!

As soon as I finish them I´ll post them, the thing is, I am quite busy at the moment... I hope I can find some free time to work on this... ;)

[crackedcornish]

can we see the blue one?....please

[xabier]

Of course, here you have the blue one:
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-azul.jpg

[BrandonDrums]

Gorgeous. I would LOVE to see the other colors. I would also like to see (just for curiosity) what a 'cheaper' headlight might look like. Stay the same shape in the body, but exposed projectors on a black insert instead of a clear plastic cover.

Love the addition of the targa bar and a fairly large rear window area. Are the side mirrors close enough to a production car to be considered a cheap 'off the shelf' item? Also is the windshield a existing item?

I think choosing to leave the hood simple was the right choice, it's very clean and sleek to match the rest of the design. The race version can add some vents, of course.

I like how the side rockers seem to look finished and professional, but still are one piece with the body for cost concerns. Many designs seem to need a pronounced rocker, this one looks perfect without one.

Almost forgot...LOVE that it doesn't climb or 'grow' in the back. Many of the designs are getting very 'tailheavy' visually.

I agree with everything above. I looked around a bit and shape-wise (i'm not sure about dimensions) a toyota MR-2 Spyder windshield comes close and the side-view mirrors from pretty much any year miata/mx-5 has the same basic shape.

The headlights already look like they are 06/07 Impreza lights.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-amarillo.jpg
http://www.carpictures1.net/wp-content/uploads/Mazda-MX5-Pictures.jpg
http://mr2spyderforum.com/mr2pictures/redmr2spyder2.jpg
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/vehicle-pictures/2006/subaru/impreza/3121-043-headlight-480.jpg

So once again, Xabier's car is by far the most build-able submission out there in terms of looks, appeal, engineering and fabrication.

[D2W]

Here goes other 3 colours hope you still like it!

I will try to implement all or at least most of your requests, at least to see how it looks that way, although in the end it may not be changed in some aspects...

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-gris.jpg
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-naranja.jpg
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-rojo.jpg

Wow! Looks like its ready for production now. Maybe too ready for production. Very nice but I find it a little bland, what is the current overall height? I'm looking for something racier, lower, rawer. Can't wait to see your "track" version.

[BrandonDrums]

Can you do a red one with gold Prodrive P1 wheels?


Of course, here you have the blue one:
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-azul.jpg

[GUNS]

Hi all again! I have been quite busy lately but I managed to find time to work on my design, but for now I can only show you the front render, I have the rear almost decided so that will be the next step.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-amarillo.jpg

This one is yellow but I have tried it in green, red, blue and orange so if anybody wants to see any other color just tell me.

After I finish with the rear I am going to work on a more track oriented version of this car, but for now this is all! Tell me what you think of it please, thanks!

Looks good but it looks a lot like an Elise especially the new body style:

http://blog.niot.net/blog-images/the-car-could-solve-everything-european-2011-lotus-elise-s-rate.jpg

[bbjones121]

Looks good but it looks a lot like an Elise especially the new body style:

http://blog.niot.net/blog-images/the-car-could-solve-everything-european-2011-lotus-elise-s-rate.jpg

They don't look that similar to me. The only thing might be the arch over the front wheels. Even that is different if you image looking at them from the front.

[Senger]

Nicely resolved, Xabier. It's coming along nicely. Honestly, there is nothing glaring at me to criticize. The rational side of me wants to see those WRX carryover headlights in CAD to make sure they indeed fit with your surfaces. So far, they seem to fit nicely. Will you use donor tail lights?

@Reload- nice start. The grey structural-looking element provides unity. However, the flat-topped fenders lack drama and could benefit from more crown to suggest the power beneath.

Here is the Carve after a lowering, increasing the thickness in the diffuser, raising the windshield, and filling the door opening. All in the name of avoiding the dune-buggy syndrome which many have aptly pointed out :) Thanks for your awesome feedback all.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5262/5574692619_14214d8d89_z.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5260/5574708155_61969de68a_z.jpg

[GUNS]

Just turn the smiley face upside down and to me they look similar. The biggest similarity for me is from the side mirrors back.

[BrandonDrums]

Looks good but it looks a lot like an Elise especially the new body style:

http://blog.niot.net/blog-images/the-car-could-solve-everything-european-2011-lotus-elise-s-rate.jpg

Xabier's 818 certainly draws quite a bit of influence but it's a far better looking car than the Elise.

Making a Truly unique design is difficult these days, 4 wheels, windshield, headlights, tail lights, grille etc etc. You can shape them a billion ways but it's hard to come up with something pretty functional AND 100% "unique"

For a car slated to be a "world platform" I think Xabier's design is by far the most universally appealing and I imagine, also one of the most simple designs for the FFR team to produce for reasons I've stated earlier.

[GUNS]

I think Xabier's design looks great, the elise comparison was just my initial thought when looking at it. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Keep it up guys, there are some awesome designs coming out.

[bbjones121]

I think the sail panels behind seats give it a bit more exotic look. I know a comment was made about blind spots, but in reality you will probably be looking up at most cars around you.

[crackedcornish]

Of course, here you have the blue one:
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-azul.jpg

sweet...

I see someone made the comment that the sail panels added to the exotic look....maybe if they had some type of air intakes either for the engines intercooler or the cars interior, I would agree.

But I would like to see the rear fenders/side scoops made to look a bit larger, wider and more aggressive first

[bbjones121]

I agree on wider fenders somehow. As someone else said we need lots of rubber on those pushing wheels.

[Monkey Tricycle Flip]

I'm really liking xabier's latest! It just gets better and better.

My very subjective preference still favors a more exotic/aggressive supercar look, but I think that's achievable with the latest as a starting point. A wing, lip, hood vent, etc. will really set it off in my eyes.

[bbjones121]

That is what I am thinking. I figured xabier might show something like that in the track/race version. Somehow a longer side scoop might help.



I'm really liking xabier's latest! It just gets better and better.

My very subjective preference still favors a more exotic/aggressive supercar look, but I think that's achievable with the latest as a starting point. A wing, lip, hood vent, etc. will really set it off in my eyes.

[bbjones121]

I disagree highly with the naysayers that think there is no way to produce an exotic looking car this size. For all looking for some inspiration along the exotic route, here you go:

Lamborghini Sesto Elemento:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/images/front_picture_library_UK/dir_826/car_photo_413482_25.jpg

Lotus Elan 2014 concept:

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/news/car/10q3/2014_lotus_elan-auto_shows/gallery/2014_lotus_elan_photo_8/3860344-1-eng-US/2014_lotus_elan_1_cd_gallery_zoomed.jpg
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/news/car/10q3/2014_lotus_elan-auto_shows/gallery/2014_lotus_elan_photo_4/3850728-1-eng-US/2014_lotus_elan_4_cd_gallery_zoomed.jpg

Lotus Elise 2015 Concept:

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/news/car/10q3/2015_lotus_elise-official_photos_and_info/gallery/2015_lotus_elise_photo_20/3862486-1-eng-US/2015_lotus_elise_3_cd_gallery_zoomed.jpg
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/news/car/10q3/2015_lotus_elise-official_photos_and_info/gallery/2015_lotus_elise_photo_3/3850546-1-eng-US/2015_lotus_elise_103_cd_gallery_zoomed.jpg

Ferrari Dino Concept:

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2007/2007-Ferrari-Dino-Concept-Design-by-Ugur-Sahin-Red-Side-Angle-1280x960.jpg
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2007/2007-Ferrari-Dino-Concept-Design-by-Ugur-Sahin-Red-Side-Angle-Top-1920x1440.jpg

[bbjones121]

Also, the alpha romeo 4C:

http://autombem.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Alfa-Romeo-4C-Concept-2.jpg

[bbjones121]

I personally prefer the look of the Lambo or Lotus concepts.

[crobin4]

I agree on wider fenders somehow. As someone else said we need lots of rubber on those pushing wheels.

That would be me.

[PhyrraM]

Actually, I think it might be more difficult for FFR to prodcue it this way (compared to if rockers were separately molded pieces). A key goal is paintless gelcoat panels. The current FFR Roadster needs a mold line just behind the headlights to allow the body to be produced as one, large piece. This has to be sanded down then filled before paint. I'm thinking smaller, individual panels are going to be key to no mold lines, allowing the paintless solution.

Very true. The key to using raw gelcoat is going to be avoiding any shape that curves back in on itself, preventing the part from being simply 'pulled' from the mold. Any shape that does curve back in needs a two-piece mold- causing the parting line issue. There are a few places on Xabier's concept that would need addressing in that regard. To my admittedly uneducated eyes, I don't see anything that couldn't be addressed. Proper hood, trunk, and seperate bumpers (like most production cars) would solve alot of the compound curve areas, albeit at added cost. Damn budget!

I also remember seeing a post by Dave that mentions that they are already using injection molded parts on current projects. That is another possibility for difficult areas- like scoops and vents.

[crobin4]

I'm really liking xabier's latest! It just gets better and better.

My very subjective preference still favors a more exotic/aggressive supercar look, but I think that's achievable with the latest as a starting point. A wing, lip, hood vent, etc. will really set it off in my eyes.

+1 As you guys know, mine will be more track oriented and perhaps not street legal at all. So I definately, want to see his track version. Xabier you're in the lead by a nose in my own personal design contest. good stuff. Iliked it from the beginning and it keeps getting better.
You may concider using the GTM taillights to reduce costs and they should already DOT approved for street use. At least in the U.S.

[Flashburn]

I like this car.
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-azul.jpg

[kach22i]

I disagree highly with the naysayers that think there is no way to produce an exotic looking car this size. For all looking for some inspiration along the exotic route, here you go:

Nice examples, thank you for posting them.

I think people are squawking about some of the key proportions; wheelbase, tire size, high seating position which is set back, rear overhang and maybe even the proposed radiator location/angle.

I think if one were to apply the FFR 818 proportions to cars you posted, the closest car would be the red Ferrari. A nice looking car, which as I mention earlier regarding the old Lambo Miura (and retro concept) is perplex as looking both front engined and mid-engined at the same time. This sort of "cross dressing" proportions will challenge all the cab forward people to say the least.

[bromikl]

... the worlds most unpractical and silly looking machine to go around some cones every few weekends assuming it's not raining and less than 100 miles away. I can't imagine a car I'd rather drive LESS than a dune buggy.

+1.

[riptide motorsport]

I agree, dune buggy.......I'm out.

[Gollum]

If FFR wanted to build a dune buggy why would they be asking for people to submit designs for a body???

I'm not worried about it being too radical.

[bbjones121]

If FFR wanted to build a dune buggy why would they be asking for people to submit designs for a body???

I'm not worried about it being too radical.

Yeah, you are right. Maybe I will not have nightmares of a dune buggy/exo from FFR anymore

[bromikl]

Xabier has this competition wrapped up, in the bag and halfway home!

But wait - there's also 05xtsy's design - which I have seen with a targa. What a tough choice. We can only hope FFR is doing multiple bodies. Then I can build one of each. :D

Fantastic work, Xabier.

[bbjones121]

If I didn't know any better, after looking at this and the GTM. I have a hard time not thinking that this would definitely fit into the GTM's younger sibling catagory. If it could just be a bit more exotic somehow. What about just flattening the curve above the middle front nose opening, not the side openings, keep those the way they are? and elongate the rear side scoops or just sink the body into the scoop sooner so that there is more depth to the inlet? There are several exotics that come to mind that run a deep side channel the length from the front vent to the rear scoop. The porsche 918 carrys the side scoop up the entire side of the car perfectly and the Lambo concept does too.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-azul.jpg

[PhyrraM]

If Xabier's design really can use the '06-'07 Impreza lights, and they really can be integrated as well as the drawing suggests -then I retract my desire to see a 'simpler', 'cheaper' light assembly. My thought pattern was that custom headlights will either A) look cheap or B) go over budget. Recycling Subaru assemblies avoids both of those concerns. STI lights are even HID, for the Ballers.

[xabier]

Can you do a red one with gold Prodrive P1 wheels?


Here you have Brandon, the red one with golden Prodrive P1 wheels (taken from an older model of Impreza)
Hope those are the wheels you where referring to...

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-rojo-dorado.jpg

[05xtsy]

^^ looks good xabier. I want to see what the profile view would look like. Also, can you put a roof on it?

[Steve91T]

^^ looks good xabier. I want to see what the profile view would look like. Also, can you put a roof on it?


What do you think about the comments about the nose with your design? I'm really anxious to see what you come up with.

[BrandonDrums]

Oooh baby, that car belongs in my driveway! Thanks so much Xabier!


Here you have Brandon, the red one with golden Prodrive P1 wheels (taken from an older model of Impreza)
Hope those are the wheels you where referring to...

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-rojo-dorado.jpg

http://i996.photobucket.com/albums/af89/BrandondrumsWRX/IMG_0230.jpg

[Niburu]

Xabier's 818 certainly draws quite a bit of influence but it's a far better looking car than the Elise.

this, I wholeheartedly agree with
if this were the winning design I'd be ready buy one.......in about year
thus far he's got my vote

[Olimk2]

A lot of new stuff on Grassroots...still 2 month to go and high level already...Welldone Xabier!

[crackedcornish]

A lot of new stuff on Grassroots...still 2 month to go and high level already...Welldone Xabier!

yeah, this one from Thanas_4 is pretty hot
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/4718/skitso23a.jpg

[MurrayT]

Take a look at the Chevy Mi-ray for inspiration....

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110331/CARNEWS/110339989

[05xtsy]

What do you think about the comments about the nose with your design? I'm really anxious to see what you come up with.

Should have the 3/4 view done today, the nose is a little more rounded off and broken up by part lines and such.

[Oppenheimer]

Wow, this is getting crazy. If I were the judge, which one would I pick? I _really_ like the Xabier, but man, some of these others.

This whole idea of the contest, either Dave is planning multiple bodies, and several designs will get built (giving something to the exo crowd, the exotic/supercar group, the more car, less concept crowd, etc), and thus the idea of the contest was pure genius, find the best of each style, or a lot of people are going to be bummed out when their favorite isn't chosen, which could sour them and push them away.

[PhyrraM]

Wow, this is getting crazy. If I were the judge, which one would I pick? I _really_ like the Xabier, but man, some of these others.

This whole idea of the contest, either Dave is planning multiple bodies, and several designs will get built (giving something to the exo crowd, the exotic/supercar group, the more car, less concept crowd, etc), and thus the idea of the contest was pure genius, find the best of each style, or a lot of people are going to be bummed out when their favorite isn't chosen, which could sour them and push them away.

On that note: I wonder what the costs are to build body molds? What is the payback? 10 cars? 25? 150 cars? I know Dave has said he plans to use extensive use of CAD/CAM. I also know that everyday folks can produce one-off bodies for fairly cheap in thier garages, but I wouldn't think a mold that withstand hundreds of finished bodies being pulled from it would be cheap.

Wheels turning. DAVE! just loosen your lips for a moment and blabber something that will make Jim mad at you for a week......:eek:



Now on a realistic note: I would prefer one well done body style (even if not my favorite), than a whole array of poorly done kit cars to choose from.

[Silvertop]

If I didn't know any better, after looking at this and the GTM. I have a hard time not thinking that this would definitely fit into the GTM's younger sibling catagory. If it could just be a bit more exotic somehow.......

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-azul.jpg

Sure, Xabier's latest could definitely qualify as the GTM's younger sibling -- except that I think it is a good deal prettier than the GTM. For my personal taste, it doesn't need to be any more exotic -- it's perfect the way it is. But that's just me. But it does seem to me that flattening out the hood curve at the center of the opening will have the impact of lowering the entire hood, shrinking whatever already minimal storage space is available under there. We're gonna need a place to stow that Targa Top.

Very, very pretty car.

[BrandonDrums]

I don't think the additional cost is building the molds really. I think what the challenge is for FFR to offer multiple body styles is how they keep inventory and do production runs.

I recall an announcement just before he '33 roadster went for sale that the '65 coupe would not be in production for a while in order to make room for the new car. It wasn't canceled but they just needed to dedicate resources to make the '33 for the foreseeable future.

Having multiple body styles for a single car would add a considerable amount of time to the production cycle I would imagine. I bet the laser trimmer needs to be reconfigured for each body panel so doubling the panels for a single car could make things tricky. Each panel is hand laid in fiberglass, laser trimmed then glued together.

Of course, I don't know how they do it exactly but I'm just going off the video tour of FFR.

Perhaps if there were more than one body style offered, they cold have a standard body which is inventoried and can be delivered with the rest of the kit. The other can be made to order for an additional cost and will require a lead time to ship or something.

I guess you can tell by now, I secretly want to be a process engineer at FFR.

Dave, what are your requirements for such a position? I'll work for booze and a cot in the FFR warehouse. I would ask for a MK4 kit but I'll settle for weekly rides in a GTM.


On that note: I wonder what the costs are to build body molds? What is the payback? 10 cars? 25? 150 cars? I know Dave has said he plans to use extensive use of CAD/CAM. I also know that everyday folks can produce one-off bodies for fairly cheap in thier garages, but I wouldn't think a mold that withstand hundreds of finished bodies being pulled from it would be cheap.

Wheels turning. DAVE! just loosen your lips for a moment and blabber something that will make Jim mad at you for a week......:eek:



Now on a realistic note: I would prefer one well done body style (even if not my favorite), than a whole array of poorly done kit cars to choose from.

[Someday I Suppose]

Brandon, I don't know that inventory is as much an issue as I am assuming they can pretty much build the bodies per order, I don't think they stockpile them. I do suspect though that there is going to be a lot of cad work and robot work in cleaning up the panels in order to get to the no paint solution they desire. That IMHO might be the prohibitive cost factor, but even still if there is a demand and they can build per order it might be feasible.

-Scott


I don't think the additional cost is building the molds really. I think what the challenge is for FFR to offer multiple body styles is how they keep inventory and do production runs.

I recall an announcement just before he '33 roadster went for sale that the '65 coupe would not be in production for a while in order to make room for the new car. It wasn't canceled but they just needed to dedicate resources to make the '33 for the foreseeable future.

Having multiple body styles for a single car would add a considerable amount of time to the production cycle I would imagine. I bet the laser trimmer needs to be reconfigured for each body panel so doubling the panels for a single car could make things tricky. Each panel is hand laid in fiberglass, laser trimmed then glued together.

Of course, I don't know how they do it exactly but I'm just going off the video tour of FFR.

Perhaps if there were more than one body style offered, they cold have a standard body which is inventoried and can be delivered with the rest of the kit. The other can be made to order for an additional cost and will require a lead time to ship or something.

I guess you can tell by now, I secretly want to be a process engineer at FFR.

Dave, what are your requirements for such a position? I'll work for booze and a cot in the FFR warehouse. I would ask for a MK4 kit but I'll settle for weekly rides in a GTM.

[crackedcornish]

Take a look at the Chevy Mi-ray for inspiration....

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110331/CARNEWS/110339989

yuk

[BrandonDrums]

You're right, I think it's the Chassis that really takes all of the effort to configure the machines and the welding jigs for. I think that's the main factor that makes them have to keep inventory on their cars and manufacture in production runs rather than build them when they are bought. I think they just go ahead and make the body and fit it on the chassis for shipping while they store them and then package the components based on the drivetrain configuration.



Brandon, I don't know that inventory is as much an issue as I am assuming they can pretty much build the bodies per order, I don't think they stockpile them. I do suspect though that there is going to be a lot of cad work and robot work in cleaning up the panels in order to get to the no paint solution they desire. That IMHO might be the prohibitive cost factor, but even still if there is a demand and they can build per order it might be feasible.

-Scott

[BrandonDrums]

You know what, I thought of something. I wonder what the cost is for having variants of specific body panels to accept different model year donor lights is vs. needing to provide headlights with the kit.

There are 3 headlight styles in the designated donor years of the Impreza, each with a different shape. The whole kit car body can be the same except the front clip, you could then choose what front clip you want according to the year lights you're using. FFR can glue the front part on when you place the order which is just one panel vs an entire car's worth.

Food for thought, the more of the donor that is used, the less FFR can charge for the kit.

[Oppenheimer]

You know what, I thought of something. I wonder what the cost is for having variants of specific body panels to accept different model year donor lights is vs. needing to provide headlights with the kit.

There are 3 headlight styles in the designated donor years of the Impreza, each with a different shape. The whole kit car body can be the same except the front clip, you could then choose what front clip you want according to the year lights you're using. FFR can glue the front part on when you place the order which is just one panel vs an entire car's worth.

Food for thought, the more of the donor that is used, the less FFR can charge for the kit.

Great idea, sounds feasible. Of course, depending on the 818 body design, some of the lights might look a lot better than others.

[BrandonDrums]

Great idea, sounds feasible. Of course, depending on the 818 body design, some of the lights might look a lot better than others.

quite true.

[olpro]

Production headlamps will be the kiss of death. It will be instantly obvious that this vehicle is a kit car, especially with the more specific (and easily identifiable) multifunction lamps from the obvious donors. It is very unlikely that even Xabier's model will really work with the actual headlamp surfaces (the production car has rather square corners, plus the many clearances - like full jounce front wheels - will play hell with an easy workout). I commend him for starting that way but will wager that, at the end of the day, it won't work out well. You just can't test this idea on a 2D photoshop rendering.
In any case, the immediate impression would be "kitcar-based-on-2### Subaru".
There are lots of good generic lamp solutions that won't dictate the entire front end surfacing and graphics. Personally I would opt for some of the excellent available Hella lamps. They are compact, DOT approved and highly functional.

[PhyrraM]

Production headlamps will be the kiss of death. It will be instantly obvious that this vehicle is a kit car........
My concern too. But if intergrated well, could be a big budget saver and still visually effective. I'm a Subaru guy and didn't immediatly recognize the lights, though others did. I agree it will be a challange.


In any case, the immediate impression would be "kitcar-based-on-2### Subaru".
That is my concern with exotic car styling more than headlights. Dismissed as a "wanna-be Lambo kit car"



There are lots of good generic lamp solutions that won't dictate the entire front end surfacing and graphics. Personally I would opt for some of the excellent available Hella lamps. They are compact, DOT approved and highly functional.
Agreed. Hence my request earlier. Google Pagani Zonda for an example.

[Stavros]

It's great we are seeing lots of good ideas coming out. I tried my hand at digitally painting the last line drawing I had posted, and here is what turned out. Right click, view image to see a larger copy.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/237/4diego.jpg

This one is based on a profile I did awhile back, even before Xabier posted his first sketch, just to address any comparisons that may be made...

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1869/diego3z.jpg

Next up, gonna paint the rear.

[crackedcornish]

I prefer xabier's concept with the subaru lights over the zonda's set up

[0100]

Here you have Brandon, the red one with golden Prodrive P1 wheels (taken from an older model of Impreza)
Hope those are the wheels you where referring to...

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-rojo-dorado.jpg

So sick!!!!!!!!

Could you do a white one please with gold and or black wheels? If possible could you also lower the ride height so there is no wheel gap. I just want something to dream about. ;)

Oh and before the nay sayers start saying "but that is not a realistic ride height". My 996 is at cup car ride height (tucked almost 1") and I daily and track it like that. The 818 will be my pure track car (trailerd to the track) with a 2-3" ride height.

[05xtsy]

new angle, changed a few things to help it flow better.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3Quarterview.jpg

[PhyrraM]

I prefer xabier's concept with the subaru lights over the zonda's set up

I do too, if they can look just as home as they do in the drawing.

[Franze]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5021/5578656610_39abffca4b_b.jpg

here is my latest effort

[bbjones121]

I like it a lot. can you do it without the carbon fiber? I know it looks really nice and addes a touch more exotic, but I would be interested to see what it looks like without it, just in case the carbon fiber doesn't make it into the budget.

If they could make those lights, I think they would be sweet, I feel like the stock WRX lights might be too big for a small car like this. Then again, some of the concept cars look good with big headlights. I would run a vertical or slightly curved up strip of LED's on the side of the headlights for the running lights.



new angle, changed a few things to help it flow better.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3Quarterview.jpg

[bbjones121]

Looks pretty good. I like what you did with the side scoops kinda like the porsche. Body maybe too curvy/flowy though?


It's great we are seeing lots of good ideas coming out. I tried my hand at digitally painting the last line drawing I had posted, and here is what turned out. Right click, view image to see a larger copy.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/237/4diego.jpg

This one is based on a profile I did awhile back, even before Xabier posted his first sketch, just to address any comparisons that may be made...

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1869/diego3z.jpg

Next up, gonna paint the rear.

[Xelerator]

EDIT: Double post

[05xtsy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3Quarterview.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3quarterfullpanel1.jpg

[crackedcornish]

I do too, if they can look just as home as they do in the drawing.

I have faith in the FFR boys.....they'll get it right, no matter which design is finally chosen as the winner

[crackedcornish]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3quarterfullpanel1.jpg

oh my, that is nice...can we see it with the hood lowered, so the grille is about half the height it is now?

[05xtsy]

I feel like the stock WRX lights might be too big for a small car like this. Then again, some of the concept cars look good with big headlights.

This is what I have thought from the beginning. In keeping the wrx lights, although they are nice, you really have to fit a design to the light rather than the other way around.

[Franze]

My posts dont seem to go through I have posted on grassroots site

[Franze]

<blockquote><cite>Franze wrote: </cite>

<blockquote>Franze wrote:

<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5021/5578656610_39abffca4b_b.jpg" />

here is my latest effort

quick sketch on my lunch break!

</blockquote>

Cheers I will try

</blockquote>

[Steve91T]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3quarterfullpanel1.jpg[/QUOTE]

That looks great. I actually like the height of the hood. What do you think about adding vents to the hood for radiator exit?

Great job.
Steve

[Steve91T]

My posts dont seem to go through I have posted on grassroots site

Once you get to 10 posts, they'll go through without need approval.

Steve

[GUNS]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3Quarterview.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3quarterfullpanel1.jpg

Looks good! Can you show this angle in the open air configuration?

[Franze]

Thanks STeve91T

[Dave Smith]

Still playing catch up. The guys are posting last weeks winner (pick of the week) for the GRM contest. Based on alot of the designs that have been posted here AND on the grm site, despite the fact that alot of cool designs have been entered in the contest, many other really cool ones (like these posted) have not yet been submitted. What a really great amount of energy and skill has been seen to date. I dont want to get drippy, but its hard not to be excited about the future of our country when you see firsthand the skills of guys who never get big press. Keep it up guys. We will have a very cool product intro and announce the winners at our summer June 11 Open House.

[Jon A]

05XTSY - Great angle. I prefer the original roof line to this one but this one is cool too (just a little too Lotus Evora for me). Perhaps the lower panels that were shown in carbon fiber could be produced in a contrasting gel-coat (i.e. black) and the upper ones in red or something else. If FFR is able to produce the panels so that they do not require paint, perhaps having a few different color gel-coat options (i.e. black, red, blue, gray, etc.) would be do-able. Another option might be to wrap the lower panels in a faux carbon fiber body wrap to achieve the original look. FFR has produced a carbon fiber body in the past (it was an option on the Roadster for a while) so perhaps they will do it again.

Right now your design and Xabier's design are my two favorites but there are a lot of really great submissions out there... I am really enjoying this competition. I put a pencil to paper in the beginning but, as Clint Eastwood said, "a man's got to know his limitations"... I think I will leave the competition to people with actual talent!

-Jon A.

[Franze]

Would anyone be able to point me in the direction to learn more about gel coat,
Also from a tooling perpective is it better to have large single surfaces or small individual panels, just thinking injection moulding tooling is expensive ,

[05xtsy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3quarterfullpanel1.jpg

That looks great. I actually like the height of the hood. What do you think about adding vents to the hood for radiator exit?

Great job.
Steve[/QUOTE]

:) I actually had black vents thrown in, but decided to take them off. Im trying to think of a more classic solution. This is my way of thinking, all the additions that I make to the car I want to age well. The plastic style vents that are seen on the lotus evora for example are not what I want to do. I also don't want to just make slits in the hood...... let me think about it for a bit.


oh my, that is nice...can we see it with the hood lowered, so the grille is about half the height it is now?

The reason the front grill is the size that it is, is because of the part line that runs down the side of the car. I will experiment with it though.


Looks good! Can you show this angle in the open air configuration?

Hahah, on the way, working as fast as I can without missing too much school.


05XTSY - Great angle. I prefer the original roof line to this one but this one is cool too (just a little too Lotus Evora for me). Perhaps the lower panels that were shown in carbon fiber could be produced in a contrasting gel-coat (i.e. black) and the upper ones in red or something else. If FFR is able to produce the panels so that they do not require paint, perhaps having a few different color gel-coat options (i.e. black, red, blue, gray, etc.) would be do-able. Another option might be to wrap the lower panels in a faux carbon fiber body wrap to achieve the original look. FFR has produced a carbon fiber body in the past (it was an option on the Roadster for a while) so perhaps they will do it again.

Right now your design and Xabier's design are my two favorites but there are a lot of really great submissions out there... I am really enjoying this competition. I put a pencil to paper in the beginning but, as Clint Eastwood said, "a man's got to know his limitations"... I think I will leave the competition to people with actual talent!

-Jon A.

- This is exactly why I think it would be wise for the design to have some sort of modular capabilities. Personalization is HUGE, and I think the combination of elegance and modularity is what I am trying to convey.

At the end of the day Jon, you and the others that make suggestions are going to be the ones that refine my design.

My final submission before June 1st will be a 3D solidworks model, but before then, I want to get as much user feedback as possible so please keep it coming.
I want to let everyone know that I am very thankful for the comments and criticism, just having the opportunity to do this is a dream come true.

[Kasmodean]

yeah, this one from Thanas_4 is pretty hot
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/4718/skitso23a.jpg
This is my favorite one so far! I would not paint the front a separate color though.

[Oppenheimer]

...its hard not to be excited about the future of our country when you see firsthand the skills of guys who never get big press. Keep it up guys. We will have a very cool product intro and announce the winners at our summer June 11 Open House.

I've been encouraged to see how many posts over on GRM forum are from _outside_ the US. Seems like FFR is getting a lot of free press already over there. Should help meet the worldwide goal for this car.

[Oppenheimer]

This is my favorite one so far! I would not paint the front a separate color though.

+1, Thanas 4, ditch the black nose. Reminds me of one of those leather bra things being resurrected. Maybe if you made the part of the 'hood' that says 'FIVE' body colored, but left the rest, from that body line down, black?

I really like this design otherwise. To me it seems like a good mix of exotic car while still not looking like it wants to be a Ferrari when it grows up. Its wild, yet still manages to look more car than concept.

[Oppenheimer]

It's great we are seeing lots of good ideas coming out. I tried my hand at digitally painting the last line drawing I had posted, and here is what turned out. Right click, view image to see a larger copy.

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/237/4diego.jpg

This one is based on a profile I did awhile back, even before Xabier posted his first sketch, just to address any comparisons that may be made...

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1869/diego3z.jpg

Next up, gonna paint the rear.

Really liking the way this one is shaping up. Agree with someone else that said perhaps too curvey/flowy. Does have obvious comparisons to Xabier, but they are still quite different. I like your 'Targa' rollbar cover. Like how in profile it really flows into the body, and how it looks in the front 3/4 view.

I like the subtle hood vents, not so sure about the sharp line down center of hood. Thinking to tone that down a little.

I'm also wondering how much of the 'too curvey' look is just the 'lighting' in the renderings, as the profile view does not look too curvey at all.

[Gollum]

Going back to the headlights, I agree that fitting the OEM lights can really kill the looks with ease making it an obvious kit car. In reality lights are by far not the most expensive thing in the world, quite the opposite actually. Headlamps (as long as they're not HID which is usually overkill imo) are quite affordable and we shouldn't let a sliver of cost savings dictate the look of the car.

Plus most people agree that subie's look "different" and even the people that like the way they look tend to agree they're a different flavor of style and subaru insists on going against the grain in a lot of ways. Why someone would want to subject themselves to those kind of limitations is beyond me. Their headlights and front end in general isn't their strong suit in my opinion. And I also believe, that like popular hollywood stars, what makes it special makes us think it's prettier than it really is. If the WRX and STI weren't the turbo AWD monsters they are most people would probably never even give them a second look.

The 818 should have it's own identity, and have it's own chance to look good all on it's own, without being subject to parts from a donor car showing on the outside. The GTM is a good example of this. It uses a good amount of vette parts, but doesn't us a single vette part on the outside. And it looks good in it's own right.

[PhyrraM]

Headlamps (as long as they're not HID which is usually overkill imo) are quite affordable
Explain please. I'm missing something here. modern headlights have many injection molded parts and fairly tight tolerances. When you start incorperatin the running lamps and turn signals (like all modern cars) then you get a fair amount of assembly too. I can't see a complete headlight assembly being that cheap to produce, but I could most certainly be wrong.

Now, if your talking off-the-shelf projectors in a panel I can see them not being too big of an issue or expense. But then your introducing an alternate, possibly dated, certainly less integrated, look.


The GTM is a good example of this. It uses a good amount of vette parts, but doesn't us a single vette part on the outside. And it looks good in it's own right.
The GTM IS unique and DOES have a look of it's own. However it's headlights are not one of it's highlights. They look cheap and very comprimised. Even in photos, the clear cover is obviously glued to the fiberglass bodywork with a very wide black paint strip to cover the interface. The back of the headligh buckets have soft curves and lack definition, due to descion to make the buckets one with the body. Exposed projectors would likely have looked better to me.

Not to knock the GTM (it's a great package), but if you can use a OEM headlight AND you can integrate it WELL (big 'if's, I know), I cannot see how wouldn't be cheaper than a FFR marketed headlight and better looking than the GTM.

[Oppenheimer]

I don't think we need to worry about the stock headlights not working well in the final design. If they try, and it looks too kit car or its so obvious what car the lights came from that it makes one think WRX kit, then I'm sure FFR will look to a different solution. They aren't going to compromise the whole car just for the lights. By the same token, if the donor headlights (or other lights) can be incorporated, for a cost savings, I'm sure FFR will do it.

Like Dave has said, every project they've done before has prepared them for this. The GTM probably mroe than most of the others. What they learned from the headlights on that car will be leveraged here.

This is one area I'm not worried about at all.

[Steve91T]

05xtsy: OK, how about this. Do you think it would be possible to have the side vents behind the front wheels be the exit? I agree with the problems of adding plastic or slots in the hood.

Steve

[Gollum]

The concept of basic off the shelf lights set into a sugar scoop is a solid idea that's effective, and is seen on loads of cars. The key to make it look like a really high quality piece is in the cover, and the details around the lights inside the bucket. It's helpful if there's some contrast inside the scoop, and maybe some ledge work. And the glass/plastic cover can't just be a flat piece, but rather rounded and detailed. Again, the idea of the GTM lights is basic, and works. It's only those little details that really set it off as "special".

This just works for me, and most agree it's a beautiful car:
http://www.hdcarpictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/aston_martin_vanquish_v12_headlight-1024x768.jpg

A little more complex, but same basic idea:
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezwebin_site/storage/images/news/auto_shows/recent_article/aston_martin_v_12_vantage_rs_concept_auto_shows/aston_martin_v12_vantage_rs_gallery/aston_martin_v12_vantage_rs_gallery_aston_martin_v 12_vantage_rs_concept_headlight_image_001/1108202-1-eng-US/aston_martin_v12_vantage_rs_gallery_aston_martin_v 12_vantage_rs_concept_headlight_image_0011_cd_gall ery.jpg


Even looking at a ferrari, the actual lights in these could be easily duplicated with off the shelf parts. It's the MOLD WORK that sets it apart, not the lights.
http://www.dragtimes.com/albums/Palm-Beach-Supercar-Weekend-2009/Ferrari_Enzo_Custom_headlight_View.sized.jpg

Again, the beauty is in the details, but it all comes down to a wopping $50 worth of bulbs and glass wrapped in a nice package
http://i.pbase.com/g6/17/651917/2/73760143.VQX9Z6ek.jpg

Even when looking at a lamo light, if you break it down to it's basic parts, pull away the molded parts and there's no real cost in it.
http://www.otoplush.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/lamborghini-murcielago-lp650-4-roadster-Headlight-pictures.jpg



The reason headlights are so "expensive" for OEM units is a combination of the unit being made up of so many parts, being pre-assembled, and then profit margin. We all know that if you were to go to a dealer and buy half your car in new parts you'll spend 4 times the original MSRP rebuilding it. Headlights are no exception. It really costs them slivers of what we pay to make the original, because the actual parts don't cost much. By letting FFR make a good molded part and spending a little bit of money there, and then letting us spend just a little more on lamps, then we get a much higher quality part that fits the look of the car, instead of trying to make a light designed for a different look work in a different application.

[PhyrraM]

Gollum, I completely agree with everything said and shown. But, as far as I have seen, it has never been pulled off successfully by anybody but an OEM. If FFR can approach that level of 'quality' (for lack of a better term), I'm all for it. In fact, might even prefer it. Until then I think the designs with OEM, or more raw, headlight designs seem more practicle to produce.

[wjfawb0]

Unfortunately I know a single 05 STI headlight assembly is close to $800 from subaru. I like the 04-05 and 06-07 WRX headlights myself. Most of the popular designs so far don't appear to have a front end slope that would accomodate them very well (except the one actually using the 06-07). I'm not so hung up on the appearances of the kit cars as much as their functionality and performance. If I can't drive it regularly, I don't want it in my garage.

[Xelerator]

EDIT: Double post

[bbjones121]

I completely agree to some of these comments in regard to just making them match a car style instead of the other way around. There are so many projector housings available out there for retrofitting. Get on ebay, craigslist, there are even company's that just sell projectors from cars. If the 818 just had a nice bucket cover and chrome accent, shelf, etc.., each person could chose a projector assembly to fit behind. The cover is very important. It can not create any glare or reflection. It would be nice if the underside of the cover was coated with an anti-reflective and UV blocking film.

[bbjones121]

Love it 05xtsy.

[bbjones121]

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/images/Skitso.jpg

Now designs are starting to get exotic. This looks great.

[BrandonDrums]

Gollum, I completely agree with everything said and shown. But, as far as I have seen, it has never been pulled off successfully by anybody but an OEM. If FFR can approach that level of 'quality' (for lack of a better term), I'm all for it. In fact, might even prefer it. Until then I think the designs with OEM, or more raw, headlight designs seem more practicle to produce.

^^^he's right. Either go way basic or use something pre-made. Upon looking through eBay, there are several OEM headlights that look cool that can be had for cheap. Subaru headlights unfortunately aren't super cheap and since the donor years have different lamps it would be difficult to just offer one year when it's so pricey to buy any of them if you don't have the right year donor.

So either a good looking OEM design or something really really raw that's not going for a custom "OEM" molded look like a TVR. Just lenses in the body.

http://mycarblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/tvr_cerbera_speed12.jpg

[BrandonDrums]

These 2 look really good from a modded OEM perspective. Both are from toyotas, who knew?

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqJ,!loE2D6HN!QrBNlhi+R0bw~~0_12.JPG
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SONAR-2002-2004-TOYOTA-CAMRY-HALO-PROJECTOR-HEADLIGHTS-/270710213707?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f07960c4b#ht_5139wt_1302

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqZ,!iIE1Mkf-iR,BNe-m15L9!~~0_12.JPG
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SONAR-00-05-CELICA-HALO-LED-PROJECTOR-BLACK-HEADLIGHTS-/280635847181?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item415733320d#ht_5139wt_1302

[bbjones121]

I think the TVR look is nice, but it shouts kit car to me.

[Franze]

<blockquote>Franze wrote:

<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5021/5578656610_39abffca4b_b.jpg" />

here is my latest effort

quick sketch on my lunch break!

</blockquote>

Cheers I will try

[Franze]

Well done

[Franze]

That's awesome

[Franze]

I think I like the blue most

[Franze]

Those Ferrari lights are epic

[Franze]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3Quarterview.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3quarterfullpanel1.jpg

Reminds me of koenegg nice

[Franze]

Awesome looks great

[Franze]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5021/5578656610_39abffca4b_b.jpg

All comments welcomed

[First5.0]

I didn't read all pages so I hope this isn't redundant buti saw this not too long ago and thought it was pretty bad ***.

http://www.bsimms.com/cool.jpg

[crackedcornish]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5021/5578656610_39abffca4b_b.jpg

All comments welcomed

unfortunately, it reminds me of this thing
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=405&d=1297878217

[PhyrraM]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5021/5578656610_39abffca4b_b.jpg

All comments welcomed

Fortunately, it reminds me of this thing:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=405&d=1297878217

:pJust teasing. ;) I like the Suzuki, but it's too extreme for most 818 prospects.

[Franze]

Yeah I'm still trying to gauge what is the vehicle style that pulls at the heart strings haven't got there yet,

Having said that ill throw some more concepts up later on

[crackedcornish]

Fortunately, it reminds me of this thing:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=405&d=1297878217

:pJust teasing. ;) I like the Suzuki, but it's too extreme for most 818 prospects.

do you really like the design of the suzuki? It just reminds me of those generic, cheap plastic, toy cars I had when I was a kid.

maybe if it had some curves to the sides of the body it wouldn't look so cheap to me

[PhyrraM]

Yeah, I do. To me it gives the impression of a fun, focused driving machine. Almost like a sportbike with a full-body. Like an EXOcar, but without the 'cheap, cutting-corners' look. It looks like it was built to HANDLE! Looking at it makes you think of pit-stops and ripping off those simple panels to service something 'utterly important to winning this race'.

Purposeful and Engineered are words that come to my mind when looking at the Suzuki. I can totally see the 818 as a version of the Suzuki, but I know I am in the disticnt minority.

Franze's design has the same shape, but the 'emotion' is lost in translation (for me).

[keys2heaven]

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5021/5578656610_39abffca4b_b.jpg

All comments welcomed

I dub thee, "The Pillbox".

Not wearing a helmet, so give me a windshield.

[bbjones121]

I think it should be running on batteries, not gasoline. It would look futuristic for sure.

[Cooluser23]

The concept of basic off the shelf lights set into a sugar scoop is a solid idea that's effective, and is seen on loads of cars. The key to make it look like a really high quality piece is in the cover, and the details around the lights inside the bucket. It's helpful if there's some contrast inside the scoop, and maybe some ledge work. And the glass/plastic cover can't just be a flat piece, but rather rounded and detailed. Again, the idea of the GTM lights is basic, and works. It's only those little details that really set it off as "special".

This just works for me, and most agree it's a beautiful car:
http://www.hdcarpictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/aston_martin_vanquish_v12_headlight-1024x768.jpg

Even looking at a ferrari, the actual lights in these could be easily duplicated with off the shelf parts. It's the MOLD WORK that sets it apart, not the lights.
http://www.dragtimes.com/albums/Palm-Beach-Supercar-Weekend-2009/Ferrari_Enzo_Custom_headlight_View.sized.jpg

Again, the beauty is in the details, but it all comes down to a wopping $50 worth of bulbs and glass wrapped in a nice package
http://i.pbase.com/g6/17/651917/2/73760143.VQX9Z6ek.jpg

Even when looking at a lamo light, if you break it down to it's basic parts, pull away the molded parts and there's no real cost in it.
http://www.otoplush.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/lamborghini-murcielago-lp650-4-roadster-Headlight-pictures.jpg



The reason headlights are so "expensive" for OEM units is a combination of the unit being made up of so many parts, being pre-assembled, and then profit margin. We all know that if you were to go to a dealer and buy half your car in new parts you'll spend 4 times the original MSRP rebuilding it. Headlights are no exception. It really costs them slivers of what we pay to make the original, because the actual parts don't cost much. By letting FFR make a good molded part and spending a little bit of money there, and then letting us spend just a little more on lamps, then we get a much higher quality part that fits the look of the car, instead of trying to make a light designed for a different look work in a different application.

The lights is the easy part. Just use Hella 60mm, or 90mm projector, or HID lights. They're both DOT and ECE approved and allow for a modular design, so any of the above designs are possible.

Hella 90mm lights
http://image.hondatuningmagazine.com/f/8787242/htup_0803_01_z+hella_90mm_headlight_module_race_an d_rally_lights.jpg
http://www.fd3s.net/lights/Hella2.jpg

[Cooluser23]

Hella 60mm lights
http://www.clubxb.com/forums/attachments/f66/11790d1248452431-fs-hella-60mm-low-beam-projectors-57000.jpg

People have been using these for years to retrofit their cars:

Even for cars with flip up headlights:

http://www.justinchristie.ca/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/20090121_fiero_headlights_low_profile.jpg
http://www.phototac.com/Fiero/headlights-2.jpg

'94 Honda Accord
http://faqlight.shopower.com/images/94-accord-Hella-90mm-H7.jpg

[Franze]

I dub thee, "The Pillbox".

Not wearing a helmet, so give me a windshield.

haha ! love it:)

[Franze]

I dub thee, "The Pillbox".

Not wearing a helmet, so give me a windshield.

haha love it!

[Vman7]

The lights is the easy part. Just use Hella 60mm, or 90mm projector, or HID lights. They're both DOT and ECE approved and allow for a modular design, so any of the above designs are possible.

Hella 90mm lights
http://image.hondatuningmagazine.com/f/8787242/htup_0803_01_z+hella_90mm_headlight_module_race_an d_rally_lights.jpg
http://www.fd3s.net/lights/Hella2.jpg

That's what I am using in my design. The Hella 90mm module lights are ready available through a lot of sources.

[PhyrraM]

I won't cross-post somebody else's work, but go to the Grassroot thread and check out ScottyB's design. Modern and retro. Exotic car hints, but not a supercar. I really like it! Especially because he said it's only an early drawing and is still being fine tuned.

If a pic doesn't work it's way into this thread in a day or so, I'll smudge my rule and post it.

[Benji]

But how much do all these hella 60/90mm units cost? most of the time you see four of them so how much would four cost?

[olpro]

Personally, I really like the Suzuki but I can understand why many people would not.
Those Hellas are exactly what I was referring to earlier. I am using them on a project started about a year ago and they will work well as long as one uses a nice vacformed plastic cover. Maybe I will post a detail of what I was doing.

[riptide motorsport]

the hellas look good.

[MikeK]

I won't cross-post somebody else's work, but go to the Grassroot thread and check out ScottyB's design. Modern and retro. Exotic car hints, but not a supercar. I really like it! Especially because he said it's only an early drawing and is still being fine tuned.

If a pic doesn't work it's way into this thread in a day or so, I'll smudge my rule and post it.
Agreed, I am a big fan of Scottyb's design also, it may just be the perfect blend

[Franze]

it appears that the retro exotic is the way to go?

[PhyrraM]

it appears that the retro exotic is the way to go?

Not at all. There is something for everyone. Go where your pencil leads.

I basically like your posted design, just needs some definition and detail (for me).

The most popular designs (so far) are all of different catagories (if you can even define them). Xabier's is smooth modern with a touch of retro, Tims (?) has exotic cues. Stravos has a bit of exotic and musclecar.

Don't let the forums pigeonhole you.

[05xtsy]

05xtsy: OK, how about this. Do you think it would be possible to have the side vents behind the front wheels be the exit? I agree with the problems of adding plastic or slots in the hood.

Steve

Yeah, I dont think It would be a problem, I am thinking about changing that line a litle too. Maybe to come up like a venom gt or something.

[Franze]

Not at all. There is something for everyone. Go where your pencil leads.

I basically like your posted design, just needs some definition and detail (for me).

The most popular designs (so far) are all of different catagories (if you can even define them). Xabier's is smooth modern with a touch of retro, Tims (?) has exotic cues. Stravos has a bit of exotic and musclecar.

Don't let the forums pigeonhole you.

Cheers I will try some new stuff soon, awesome

[bbjones121]

Is it not allowed to post a pic of someone elses design? I think that may help promote it somewhere that person might not otherwise have known about?

[PhyrraM]

Is it not allowed to post a pic of someone elses design? I think that may help promote it somewhere that person might not otherwise have known about?

I wouldn't say it's not allowed, but I consider it bad form. I do not know if it has been officially submitted yet, so it could very well still be the designers property. Plus, I'd like to leave the 'unveil' to the designer if he wants it.

[unclebigbad]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3Quarterview.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/3quarterfullpanel1.jpg

The one on the bottom is nice, I really like it.

[ScottyB]

Hi guys. In response to some guys on the GRM forum I thought i'd toss this up here for consideration. I really enjoy the curvy design aesthetic reminiscent of the 60s-70s but with modern aero components and proportions. This is the earliest draft i've done and willl likely tone down the front overfenders, smooth out the nose, as well as remove the fog lights in the next version. thanks for any feedback!

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o193/bradfosk06/FF.jpg

[unclebigbad]

Between this site and GRM's site, I am supremely impressed with the talent and knowledge of these communities. Here are some sketches I have done for the contest, any and all feedback is welcome. I am a mechanic/fabricator by trade and have limited design skills, and no rendering programs, so all my work will be in pencil. Oh and don't mind the water marks I'm working with limited materials.

http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k637/unclebigbad1/FFRdriverprofile.jpg

http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k637/unclebigbad1/FFR%20design%20contest/IMG_0008.jpg
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k637/unclebigbad1/FFR%20design%20contest/IMG_0007.jpg

[FFRWRX]

I won't cross-post somebody else's work, but go to the Grassroot thread and check out ScottyB's design.


I just went over and checked it out. Very nice! Some features remind me a bit of the Grand Sport Vette; some modern lines and some retro.

[xabier]

So sick!!!!!!!!

Could you do a white one please with gold and or black wheels? If possible could you also lower the ride height so there is no wheel gap. I just want something to dream about. ;)

Oh and before the nay sayers start saying "but that is not a realistic ride height". My 996 is at cup car ride height (tucked almost 1") and I daily and track it like that. The 818 will be my pure track car (trailerd to the track) with a 2-3" ride height.


Sorry for the delay but now its saturday I have been able to do something like what you asked, or at least I hope so... I have changed the color into white, and changed the rim color into black with a red stripe, which I think it gives a propper color touch to the car, a bit more racing looking, and finally I also lowered the car a bit.
Hope you like it! :)

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-low-ride.jpg

[keys2heaven]

Sorry for the delay but now its saturday I have been able to do something like what you asked, or at least I hope so... I have changed the color into white, and changed the rim color into black with a red stripe, which I think it gives a propper color touch to the car, a bit more racing looking, and finally I also lowered the car a bit.
Hope you like it! :)

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-low-ride.jpg

The front end really nails it for me (hints of C***a). I like the targa option as well. And, the lowered look is very sweet.

I sincerely hope the judges see what we see with your design. Simply outstanding. I've shown all the concepts to date to friends and family and they all are drawn to your design as their choice.

[Xelerator]

That's what we need, large air intakes for the intercooler(s).
Please keep intercooler efficiency in mind!
BTW, my favourite design so far.

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/4718/skitso23a.jpg

[0100]

xabier I love it!!! Thanks so much for taking the time to do that. Much appreciated. Looks great with the TA colored wheels and lowered ride height. Can't wait to be ripping around Lime Rock Park in that. :D

[16g-95gsx]

I absolutely love that you incorporated OEM headlights into the design too. Too many of the designs that I have seen look like Ferrari's (not necessarily a bad thing) and to me I don't want that to be the first thing I think of when I see an 818. I would say that I think the hood area needs a radiator vent of some sort. I can't clearly imagine how air would freely flow through any radiator or other heat exchanger up front.

I gotta say a lot of the designs that I'm seeing a phenominal guys. The concept of the car seems incredible and I have been doubtful about whether the ultimate look will meet my hopes, but as these designs come through I'm starting to feel more and more excited about it. Great job.

[LifeIsOnTheWire]

Heres a nice online store i've found that sells alot of lighting equipment, very helpful for someone designing their own headlights.

http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/lighting/ipf_lamp.php

[mske390]

There are some really really nice sketches on here but they all seem to be modern designs, I would love to see some with some retro looks to them. Anyone else?

xabier can you play with giving your front end a 2007 WRX grille look?

http://2007-subaru-impreza-wrx-sti-limited.htm

[Franze]

here is my latest refinements
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5091/5584887245_abd3bd68b1_b.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5026/5584887535_2882190790_b.jpg

[PhyrraM]

Franze, overall I really like those designs. They have good proportions and are fairly visually balanced. They look tough and strong. However, they look too 'chunky' for the 818 to me. I, personally, see them more as a slightly larger vehicle. Maybe as a sort of rally car/off road fusion. Something with a bit of ground clearance and AWD. Something small and agile enough to scoot up a mountain road with the best of them, yet rugged enough to hit the dirt trail at the top.

Either way, just one persons thoughts. I'm sure others will feel differently.

[Thanas_4]

Hello guys, we are Team_KT, the winners for the 4th week. I though I should post a synopsis of our progress till now. I am Thanos Pappas, and my chief designer is Konstantinos Malandrinos. I have also already posted some stuff in the magazine's forum. Anyway here are some sketches from both of us:

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/6747/skitso2.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-03-30


http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/6315/frontends.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-03-30

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9282/skitso2627.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-03-31

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8159/rear2.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-03-30

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/2453/backwg.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-03-31

[Thanas_4]

Some more:

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8321/pfront1.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-03-31

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/9474/skitso32a1.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-03-31

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8973/skitso30.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-01

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/6977/skitso31a.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-01

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9122/skitso18.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-01

http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/5737/frontbest1.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-02
:cool:

[Thanas_4]

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9707/frontbest3.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-02

[mske390]

There are some real nice designs here but does anyone have any retro designs, I would love to see some older looks with a modern touch.

[mske390]

Xabier can you show some designs with a front grille that is similar to a 2007 WRX?

[ScottyB]

There are some real nice designs here but does anyone have any retro designs, I would love to see some older looks with a modern touch.

i've done something along those lines, although the image is in the GRM forum. i believe Casttype_Wookie over there is doing a similar thing based on the stratos. Also, Speedboy's done a design that i think has some older can-am touches to it. All show alot of promise!

[ScottyB]

edit: extra post

[MikeK]

There are some real nice designs here but does anyone have any retro designs, I would love to see some older looks with a modern touch.

Yes, you have to check out ScottyB's design over on GRM, I'm really looking foward to seeing more angles of that car in color, as of now it is exactly what I'm looking for.

[PhyrraM]

I won't cross-post somebody else's work, but go to the Grassroot thread and check out ScottyB's design. Modern and retro. Exotic car hints, but not a supercar. I really like it! Especially because he said it's only an early drawing and is still being fine tuned.

If a pic doesn't work it's way into this thread in a day or so, I'll smudge my rule and post it.


With the permission of ScottyB:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5172/5587028050_4e06f172b1_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5587028050/)

He asked that I let everyone know it's an initial sketch and some aspects will change. He's registered here now, so will see our comments/critiques.

[keys2heaven]

With the permission of ScottyB:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5172/5587028050_4e06f172b1_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/23291496@N04/5587028050/)

He asked that I let everyone know it's an initial sketch and some aspects will change. He's registered here now, so will see our comments/critiques.

Nice. Notice some Type 65 elements in this.

[Doc_FFR]

To the front of the A pillar doesn't match what is behind the A pillar. In other words, it looks like the dividing point for two different cars. I'm interested in seeing more sketches though.

[forced4]

I like the front brake ducts, the high mirrors and the bubble top. The front fender flares are reminiscent of Stratos, which isn't a bad thing.

Need to see more angles.

[Franze]

Franze, overall I really like those designs. They have good proportions and are fairly visually balanced. They look tough and strong. However, they look too 'chunky' for the 818 to me. I, personally, see them more as a slightly larger vehicle. Maybe as a sort of rally car/off road fusion. Something with a bit of ground clearance and AWD. Something small and agile enough to scoot up a mountain road with the best of them, yet rugged enough to hit the dirt trail at the top.

Either way, just one persons thoughts. I'm sure others will feel differently.

Thanks for your feedback,Its really great.
I will probably post many designs on here, its the best way for me to get feedback and get better at designing cars, hope u don't mind :)
if one of these designs turns into a winner so be it, but either way I am having fun

[Olimk2]

Having fun and sharing car passion, this is the main goal of this no? Of course your're welcome to post other concept if you wish...
I will post my first submission soon too...

[Franze]

Alright so I have been playing around with proportions and this is what I have come up with, it's a bit tame, need to make a race spec version next
forgive the perspective on the lights

Cheers
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5137/5587801141_e9465ae21e_b.jpg

[Olimk2]

Looks like a design from cadillac, nice but looks "heavy" for a 800kg car...

[Franze]

Looks like a design from cadillac, nice but looks "heavy" for a 800kg car...
Yep I agree with you, it does remind me of a caddy aswell! Thanks I am glad you like it

[Olimk2]

Looking back at your design Franze, the door is too far back, so it seems front engined, a side intake down rear would adress that and add "lightness" to the side, try it...

[Franze]

Looking back at your design Franze, the door is too far back, so it seems front engined, a side intake down rear would adress that and add "lightness" to the side, try it...

That makes sense I will try it thanks again Olimk2

[Oppenheimer]

Team TK, um, WOW!

A lot to like in many of those sketches. I like the one rendered in blue, as well as the very last sketch. Not really liking either of the two views of the rear. More refinement needed.

I think what I like most is how aggresive these designs look, without drawing obvious comparisons to existing cars. Nor do they look like generic supercars, car-guys aren't going to take one look and think this is some new Ferrari or Lambo.

On the profile view of the blue rendering, one thing I _don't_ like is the way the body line above the rear wheel follows the contour of the wheel opening. Something about that makes the butt look droopy.

[Oppenheimer]

The ScottyB design, I like the retro feel, yet it doesn't scream 'old'. Something about the front fender flare though reminds me of some sort of bolted on plastic affair (it looks integrated into front fairing as well). It was probably done to look like a race car, but it makes me think 'body kit' instead. I'd make it look more integrated into the shape of the car, like they were always there, not added on.

I'd like to see more angles of this design.

[keys2heaven]

^^^

+1

I concur.

[CooperD]

Sorry for the delay but now its saturday I have been able to do something like what you asked, or at least I hope so... I have changed the color into white, and changed the rim color into black with a red stripe, which I think it gives a propper color touch to the car, a bit more racing looking, and finally I also lowered the car a bit.
Hope you like it! :)

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l619/xabier-albizu/factoryfive-render-low-ride.jpg

WOW - Where do I send my down payment?

[Silvertop]

There are just more and more really top shelf designs showing up on this thread, including Scotty B's and and Team TK's above. It is just great fun to visit here every day. Keep 'em coming!

Xabier's design is still the one that turns my personal crank, though. I'm pleased to see that it looks good in white. Here's hoping it's one of the color choices. Mine will have probably have silver wheels (depending on what the donor car has on it).

[Thanas_4]

Thanks to oppenheimer and everyone else for the kind and really helpfull comments. We are working now on combining the best elements of our designs to one sketch. We are very happy to see that there are people out there that like our vision of the future of Factory Five. Again we would like to point out that these are early sketches so you should expect future improvement. Soon we will be posting more. Have a nice week ;)

[Oppenheimer]

The more I look at some of the TK 4 designs, the more I see the K1 Attack reflected back. The bottom sketch in post #926 and the one in #927, there is a lot of K1 in there. I really do like that sketch though, but IMO it would be a mistake for the 818 to look too much like the K1. Most of the other TK 4 designs posted here don't have that 'K1 look'.

My advice to TK 4, I think you'd be well served to try to keep any K1 design elements out of your renderings to avoid such comparisons.

[Thanas_4]

Maybe we should try to keep our design really original. The resemblance that you are talking about is probably due to the headlights in the specific sketches. Probably we won't keep those. Our next goal now is to evolve the sketch that made us week 4 winners. We also need a cool design for the back because we are also not too satisfied with our results till now.

[Olimk2]

Now you've got good styling, let's put it on scale...i see that Thanas your sketches are more realistic dimensionwise than Konstantinos' ... Either the car is too wide or the cockpit very narrow.Fits more an "Enzo" or "Pagani" chassis than an "Elise" one. As for the rear just integrate that the gearbox is there and keep it simple! Very nice work indeed!

[slopoke]

here's some two year old with a #2 pencil stuff . . . "work in progress" lol

[slopoke]

personally, I think the driver position is all wrong ... the car shouldn't have to be 50 inches tall (forty would do nicely) but thats the template obviously going for the daily driver/coupe look, maybe too conservative though

[Oppenheimer]

Its that high because they want to make sure tal guys can fit. Its not about looks, its about Wookies.

[PhyrraM]

I seem to recall Dave or Jim posting that the early CAD drawings have the stock Subaru fuel tank under the seats. He also said it's not firm.

[Olimk2]

Yes a bit odd to put it under the driver, would be better between driver and engine but they already dismiss the H6 to give room to the passenger so...
Could be in front but may affect the chassis/steering balance when full or empty?

[slopoke]

Well I certainly could pass for a portly Wookie

[PhyrraM]

The stock Subaru tank is wide and flat, sitting under the rear seat. I'm sure the attempt to reuse it is driven by the $10K cost target.

Now that I'm thinking about it, it's likely going to one of the single hardest things to package on the car. Even if you choose a custom tank, 95" wheelbase and stock WRX width doesn't leave a lot of room for a tank. Especially considering how wide the H4 boxer motor is.

What is left are a few, less than desirable locations. If retaining the stock tank you have a) High and back, over the transmission, b) wedged high into the nose somehow, or c)under the seats. If going for a custom tank there are a few more options such as a) narrow center console, b) real narrow side sills (GT40ish), c) under front hood/between footwells, d) far back and beside each side of the transmission, or e) small wedge between seats and engine.

Add to that the hope for 300+ mile cruising range.

[Olimk2]

At the back or the side is not really crashproof...

[PhyrraM]

At the back or the side is not really crashproof...

True.

What I think is doable is a custom tank in the console, leading up to and widening in the footwell area. However, I'm sure such a tank will not be cheap and I admittedly have no idea how hard the budget is going to be to meet for FFR. A bonus effect of a tank in this area would be that the wedges behind the seats and the areas over and next to the transmission can be used for storage.

[Bill_H]

If the Subaru fuel tank looks like this:
http://www.upillar.com/listings/230235-2003-subaru-wrx-fuel-tank--used
it will be pretty hard to put it anywhere except under the seat.

[PhyrraM]

If the Subaru fuel tank looks like this:
http://www.upillar.com/listings/230235-2003-subaru-wrx-fuel-tank--used
it will be pretty hard to put it anywhere except under the seat.

It looks exactly like that.

It's about 16 gallons and has either a secondary pump or a siphon mechanism on the return to move fuel from the 'wrong' side of the driveshaft hump over to the correct side to be picked up by the main pump.

[Olimk2]

I made my first design with some storage above the tranny, but some may put a transverse silencer there. I think the late DeTomaso Guara had a nice chassis with the tank in the middle, the chassis design was much better than the body styling...try to get a pic of that.

[Olimk2]

http://www.auto-pub.net/Divers/DeTomaso_Guara_cat/DeTomaso_Guara_cat_90.jpg

Found it, love the set up!

[Olimk2]

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/attachments/f101/34873d1156742526-elise-exige-has-no-fuel-filter-dsc00009b.jpg
Lotus setup

http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/images/products/FMLOTFT3.jpg Aftermarket lotus alloy tank, around 800$, so i understand why FFR would reuse oem subaru one...

[Thanas_4]

Guys does anybody know what is going to happen with the doors; I see that most of the people have doors in their concepts but in the templates I see no door opening in the side of the frame. Can it be cut; In my sketches I put a small door similar to bmw z1 so you would need a small jump to enter the vehicle.

[Olimk2]

Take a look at the '33 hot rod and you will understand...

[crackedcornish]

you could always mount it up front

like this subaru powered porsche replica does
http://vintagespyders.com/media/images/mtrunk_jpg.jpg

[KWXtreme]

Here's a few sketchs I've done recently .... Give your advise, which one do you think i should continue with .... likes/dislikes

Thanks

[mske390]

sorry for all the repeat posts they do not appear to be going through for me until the next day...must be because I am soo new

[mske390]

I really like the one that ScottyB posted, love the retro looks in it. Can this have engine mid mounted, seems like this would be an engine front car. Although I am not a manufacturing expert it seems to me that these panels might be expensive to create but I love where this one is heading?

[2KWIK4U]

KWXtreme

I really like the sketch of the bottom one, Is that the evolution of the sketch?

[KWXtreme]

No ... variations of the same concept except the last one ... totally different idea

[Oppenheimer]

KWXtreme

I really like the sketch of the bottom one, Is that the evolution of the sketch?

+1. The bottom one. The others remind me of a Pinewood Derby car.

[armstrom]

If the Subaru fuel tank looks like this:
http://www.upillar.com/listings/230235-2003-subaru-wrx-fuel-tank--used
it will be pretty hard to put it anywhere except under the seat.
While it's nice to re-use as much as possible from the donor car, I would be more than happy to pay the extra cost for a proper fuel cell mounted in the front or rear of the car along with an external fuel pump/filter. Custom fuel lines will already be required. JEGS sells a 12 gallon plastic fuel cell for $140, aluminum 15 gallon under $200. Summit racing sells a high-pressure, high-flow external fuel pump for $81 (good for 500HP).

So if FFR just leaves a flat spot somewhere in the front or rear of the car where the builder can mount a fuel cell of their choice then customers will be free to choose whatever option they want. Or, at wholesale prices in quantity FFR should have plenty of room to offer a "suggested" fuel system that will bolt right in the car for somewhere in the $200-$250 range and still turn a decent profit on the package. I for one would MUCH rather spend an extra $200-250 of my money on a fuel solution that's easier to upgrade and service (pulling an in-tank pump is rarely fun or easy) AND doesn't make the seating height in the car look like you're driving around in a delivery van seat (exaggeration, but you know what I mean). In a sports car you should feel like your *** mere inches above the pavement... Otherwise we'll all end up looking like this guy :)
http://www.highwayrobbery.net/TrcImgsWebSpeedTrapCopToyCar.jpg

[bromikl]

I did a quick search for aftermarket tanks. Some are in the $100-300 range for plastic, $500 for aluminum and about $150 for fuel cells.

Omlik pointed out a design that has a long, narrow tank in the center. For weight distribution, that may be our best direction. For agility, concentrating weight low and in the center makes a faster car. As it is, the back end is going to be very heavy. But I also wouldn't want the front handling to change as the tank empties.

I'm all for using the original tank if it's behind the driver. But I'm not sure that's possible. Seems the frame would get in the way. Would it fit under the engine? (that would mean re-designing the frame.)

One of many:
http://www.justgastanks.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=326_422&products_id=1413

[PhyrraM]

I'm not sure there will be room for any 'universal' off-the-shelf fuel tank unless the capacity is cripplingly small. I was afraid a custom aluminum might be that expensive. Hmm...

[Steve91T]

The Toyota MR2, at least 1st gen and 2nd gen, had the fuel tank mounted in the center of the car. It was perfect, mounted low, and didn't affect handling.

In my opinion, a front mounted fuel tank would be a very bad idea. Adding 90 lbs to the front of a mid engine, 1800 lb car, then taking it away (as you use fuel), would really change your weight distribution.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AW11-MR2-GAS-TANK-FUEL-CELL-85-86-MK1-4AG-TOYOTA-4A-GE-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3f0664f897QQitemZ27069 0220183QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries#ht_588wt_941

[olpro]

Just a thought…
A bifuel option would use a Beetle type tank up front but most driving would be on the CNG, which is cheaper, cleaner & domestically produced.

http://www.mgexim.net/cngcylinder.htm
http://www.cngchat.com/forum/showthread.php?2974-poll-09-Subaru-WRX-bi-fuel-conversion
http://www.ewsews.com/cngprices.html

[Silvertop]

Although sitting on top of the gas tank could be a little disconcerting, I think I favor installation of the Subaru tank under the seat, for the following reasons:

1) Costs. Reusing the stock tank saves money, and as others have pointed out, it is probably the only place it will fit.
2) It should be relatively weight-distribution neutral there, empty or full.
3) It will preserve what little storage space there is available elsewhere in the car.
4) It should pretty much guarantee that the car will ultimately be at least tall enough that my aging, overfleshed carcass will be able to get in and out of the thing with some semblance of ease.

[Gollum]

Regarding weight transfer from fuel, I read a little article put together from a guy who did a test showing that the weight distribution difference from a full tank to empty tank in a Z32 300ZX was a larger difference than the weight balance difference of shoving a V8 in the front. It was kind of a stab at the people that complain that "a V8 will ruin the handling" pointing out that most people don't even notice the handling difference between a full and empty tank because they're not paying enough attention and not driving at the limit.

Still no reason to go throw the tank over a bumper though. ;-)

[Steve91T]

Regarding weight transfer from fuel, I read a little article put together from a guy who did a test showing that the weight distribution difference from a full tank to empty tank in a Z32 300ZX was a larger difference than the weight balance difference of shoving a V8 in the front. It was kind of a stab at the people that complain that "a V8 will ruin the handling" pointing out that most people don't even notice the handling difference between a full and empty tank because they're not paying enough attention and not driving at the limit.

Still no reason to go throw the tank over a bumper though. ;-)

Exaclty, but that's a huge car, heavy car. 100 lbs isn't a whole lot compared to the weight of the car. You'll be able to tell the difference in the 818.

And also, most people don't make tiny adjustments in their alignment or tire pressure to change the handling of a car.

Most people who track their cars will be able to tell the difference.

I see your point though.

Steve

[Silvertop]

Still no reason to go throw the tank over a bumper though. ;-)

Agreed. I'd be willing to bet that the same 300ZX would handle noticeably different full vs empty if the driver was tossing the car around on an autocross course rather than just rolling down the road........

[crobin4]

I was wondering when the fuel tank thing would come up. I've been thinking about that since the design templates came out showing the driver.

[xabier]

I`ve heard many times that this kind of tanks affected quite badly to the handling. As some said, first is the difference between full and an empty on the weight distribution but apart from that there is also the fact that the fuel will be moving from one side to the other when you take a corner, causing understeering or movementes you don´t want...

[PhyrraM]

I wonder if the cost to tool up for a molded plastic tank is too much for FFRs cost goal for this project?

I assume so, because no low production maker has ever done it to my knowledge. They all still use off-the-shelf fuel cells/tanks or fabricated aluminum tanks.

[armstrom]

The Toyota MR2, at least 1st gen and 2nd gen, had the fuel tank mounted in the center of the car. It was perfect, mounted low, and didn't affect handling.

In my opinion, a front mounted fuel tank would be a very bad idea. Adding 90 lbs to the front of a mid engine, 1800 lb car, then taking it away (as you use fuel), would really change your weight distribution.


That is true. that could be mitigated by using a smaller tank (12 gallons would only have a weight difference of 72lbs) The 818 should be much more fuel efficient than the stock subaru so 12 gallons would still provide tons of range. As the owner of an MR2 turbo I'm intimately familiar with the center mounted tank. while it is ideal for weight distribution it is also an absolute BEAR to work on. If something like that were used then a tunnel would need to be added to the frame design to accommodate the tank (you would want it outside the metal floor of the vehicle. Also, an access hatch would need to be added to allow the in-tank fuel pump to be serviced without dropping the tank. For some reason toyota decided to provide an access port JUST big enough to see the wiring connections to the pump but not big enough to actually remove it. Major PITA!! I like the design of that lotus tank though. Maybe even a tall skinny tank that sits flush with the firewall and tapers to the fuel pickup down at the bottom would work even better. it would need to be fairly narrow or filled with foam in order to prevent sloshing from side to side, but it would be a convenient place since that's also a logical place to put the fuel filler. (near the C pillar)

[Cooluser23]

http://www.auto-pub.net/Divers/DeTomaso_Guara_cat/DeTomaso_Guara_cat_90.jpg

Found it, love the set up!


Like the setup. It's a really great place for the gas tank. :)

[mhoward1]

The NA Miata tank setup was pretty good as well and had easy access to the pump. It was mounted right behind the seats.

[AdamAnt75]

Amen to Wookie Compliance !!
My must have list includes a hardtop or at least a full cage for track days. If not in the final design, maybe as an option. And I'm 6'2" so wookie compliance with helmet is important to me. :cool:

[Justen]

http://www.auto-pub.net/Divers/DeTomaso_Guara_cat/DeTomaso_Guara_cat_90.jpg

Found it, love the set up!

So, the gas tank is structural to the frame? is that safe?

[emironov]

The Subaru tank and fuel pump assembly have problems with fuel pickup. If you go too much below 1/2 a tank and have a high-g corner you get major fuel starvation in the engine. The starvation occurs to the point that combustion is affected, and pistons can be damaged. Sorry for not much info, but this is taken from a lot of experience.

If the Subaru tank is to be used some sort of after-market pump assembly and surge-tank will be necessary as this car will mostly likely see much higher g-loads than the doner car.

Evan

[Thanas_4]

Hello everybody, we are back with some new sketches for our concept. We have a thing with the doors, we see that there is only a small opening in the frame, so maybe there is no point of having full size doors. Now we will start working on the back, probably we will stick to the targa design with a removable top that will be able to hide under the bonnet. Anyway here are some sketches that me and Konstantinos did, some of them based on the week 4 winning design of ours.


http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/8954/frontcombination.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-05

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/2483/side31.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-05

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/3541/skitso13a.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-05

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9602/skitso33.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-05

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4651/front30r.jpg
By team_kt (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/team_kt) at 2011-04-05

[bbjones121]

It seems like most exotic follow pretty similar body traits. Large front openings and deep side channels usually to a vent. Small, shallow side vents don't do it for me. I think it has a lot to do with how most body kits and body work are/is capable of doing shallow small scoops and vents. To make it look like it is not an addition, i think they need to be large and deep.

[Olimk2]

the last one is neat!

[PhyrraM]

It seems like most exotic follow pretty similar body traits. Large front openings and deep side channels usually to a vent. Small, shallow side vents don't do it for me. I think it has a lot to do with how most body kits and body work are/is capable of doing shallow small scoops and vents. To make it look like it is not an addition, i think they need to be large and deep.

But the radiator is tentaively upfront. The more air you pump in the more air you need to get rid of or you have serious lift issues at speed. Unless the radiator moves, only the engine and intercooer need airflow. If we move the radiator to the back, the budget comes under fire.

Of course, I'm not a fan of vents at all - unless they are functional.

Choices...

[LifeIsOnTheWire]

alot of great designs here, but are any of them taking into account the needed airflow for the stock WRX top-mount intercooler?

im not sure if this was already discussed, I mostly just cruised through the thread looking at pics :P

[bbjones121]

alot of great designs here, but are any of them taking into account the needed airflow for the stock WRX top-mount intercooler?

im not sure if this was already discussed, I mostly just cruised through the thread looking at pics :P

Yup been discussed. I even got in a little trouble for mentioning that the extra airflow should be a part of the design requirements.

[Oppenheimer]

Latest Thanas 4 designs: I love the nose of that first one, all the work has come together and this looks great. I liked the huge rear vent on the earlier designs better. Some of these look too much like the next Ferrari (which, while cool, is not what I was personally hoping for.

The large rear vent was, to my eye, what made the design look wild, yet not look like a generic exotic car (um, did I just call exotic supercars 'generic', as if they could be lumped together into a sameness category? Apparently I did)