Open Design Discussion and What's NEXT! [Archive] - Page 3

Evan78

03-23-2011, 02:29 PM

There are several people that have said this type of statement in so few words, I was mainly refering to the main GRM thread,,,
Well in case anyone somehow misinterpreted my earlier statement:

Olpro, are you aware that this is a forum full of car guys and not an automotive design forum?I sure hope nobody would read this as saying car designers are not "car guys". I would assume that most anyone that designs cars for a living probably has a passion for them. I was referring to the fact that car guys are generally not car designers. As Stavros stated, he's a graphic designer, but not a car designer and has prepared what I consider a very nice design. Olpro has been fairly critical and talked about what pro's deal with every day as if everyone here is a pro designer. As Dave Smith has stated, FFR is running this competition through a different path instead of using Local Motors specifically because the LM community is almost entirely designers. It doesn't make much sense to bash amateur designers for not being completely original when amateurs is one of the groups FFR is trying to get input from.

Rotr8

03-23-2011, 02:47 PM

Evan78- This is the qoute I was refering to it wasnt directed towards you -

The goal is to allow freedom of design from a community of active, hard-core car builders, racers, and enthusiasts rather than professional designers who, in many cases, are in love with drawing, but don't understand that the whole point of a sportscar is the thrill of driving. If you don't get excited at the idea of hammering around a track in an 1800 lb 300+ hp mid-engined giant slayer, then you shouldn't be drawing cars. If the idea of pulling out of your driveway and trolling for vettes gets your blood pumping, then pick up a pencil and join the challenge. The fact that this might be possible for an average guy like me to build this car for less than $15,000 is what Factory Five has to try and accomplish.
Dave Smith President

Evan78

03-23-2011, 03:01 PM

I see. I disagree with "If you don't get excited at the idea of hammering around a track in an 1800 lb 300+ hp mid-engined giant slayer, then you shouldn't be drawing cars." Maybe you shouldn't be drawings sports cars, but we all know there's other types of vehicles than sports cars. I know plenty of people that have an interest in cars, but virtually no interest in hauling butt. They just want a car that looks great and gets them from A to B in comfort. That's a perfectly valid goal and probably what most of the population is looking for. There's no reason that view shouldn't be represented in the design process. I'll give Dave the benefit of the doubt and assume he's talking sports car designers. I don't know, maybe he's met some that don't have the passion he'd expect?

olpro

03-23-2011, 04:12 PM

Rotr8, I was also put off by that same unfortunate statement, which really doesn't indicate much understanding of the design process, no matter who is doing it.
Also, it undoubtedly led to my sensitivity to Evan’s statement, which he has since explained.
First of all, whether some guy is a motor head or not has NOTHING to do with his/her ability to design cars, even sport cars. Secondly, such pronouncements are counter productive to the goal of getting a broader spectrum of entries.

On a related topic, how are we doing on the judges’ panel?

Stavros

03-23-2011, 04:34 PM

Stepping aside from arguing semantics about design processes, validity of replicas, and generally beating dead horses, lets get back on topic with some more 818 designs.

This one comes from the GRM forum by SETHalpine, I am looking forward to its developments since its the style of car that perks my interest as a driver.

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/575966FF7.jpg
http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/696382racester4.jpg

Like myself, he too mentioned some idiosyncrasies with the template, stating "The driving position given by the template, doesn't really allow to draw a truly rear mid-engine design. Not a cab'forward design... And the height must be well above 46' "

In reply to keys2heaven, here is a variation of the 918pattern concept with alternate front to accommodate a front center mounted radiator. The one also has round taillights versus the bodywidth lightbar.

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/1723/halcyon2.jpg

Rotr8

03-23-2011, 04:42 PM

Stravos, you do realize your post is out of context, those designs were posted as demonstrations that the owners of the designs are equally frustrated with how its being handled right?
Believe me I hold no personal frustration with anyone here not ever meeting a single one of you nor knowing you as a person but you have to realize that discussions like this are what designers go through on a daily basis and to be a great designer you have to release your personal attachment to any line or curve and be willing to change and adapt the design in an instant without taking it personally, if you do then you will not progress at all and the design will become stale and boring. The designers above are only chiming in because they dont want that to happen, they want relevance and purpose and thats why they are seeking some critical information.

But if this conversation is getting old with any of the non-professional(no offense ment, not trying to elevate anyones emotions any more) designers then I think I will stop because its meaningless to just sit back and pat each other one the back just because a few people don't take criticism well. I do understand that the contest is in good nature and fun, but it wont be as good as it could be unless there is competition and improvement.

And see your even improving on your design as well, you would not have made three versions(evolving away from its origins- for the better) of your 918 unless people were giving you an honest critique, its already becoming much better...

Stavros

03-23-2011, 05:07 PM

Stravos, you do realize your post is out of context,

Not seeing how it was out of context at all, I even quoted the fella directly and posting a simple fact that another person who is producing a design noticed the same thing as I did. I am working within theses constraints for the 3 different submissions I am producing, so I am very well aware that the design has to change and adapt as you can see from the multiple submissions I have shared that all fit the required parameters.

The commentary in the last two pages revolving around, "woe is me, I am a car designer and nobody understands how its done" is in fact getting quite old and really needs to be dropped, especially hearing it from parties who claim great designer insights, yet have not shared any designs of their own, let alone constructive criticisms on whats been posted.

Anyhow once again trying to steer this thing back outta the gutter, here is another concept, going in a different direction than the others.

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/9620/corsam.jpg

keys2heaven

03-23-2011, 05:14 PM

Not seeing how it was out of context at all, I even quoted the fella directly and posting a simple fact that another person who is producing a design noticed the same thing as I did. I am working within theses constraints for the 3 different submissions I am producing, so I am very well aware that the design has to change and adapt as you can see from the multiple submissions I have shared that all fit the required parameters.

The commentary in the last two pages revolving around, "woe is me, I am a car designer and nobody understands how its done" is in fact getting quite old and really needs to be dropped, especially hearing it from parties who claim great designer insights, yet have not shared any designs of their own, or even constructive criticisms on whats been posted.

Anyhow once again trying to steer this thing back outta the gutter, here is another concept, going in a different direction than the others.

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/9620/corsam.jpg

Wow. I'm really captivated by this. Nice.

I think it best to remember that this is a design competition open to everyone.

olpro

03-23-2011, 05:16 PM

Stavros, did you do that design and artwork? (Palamino Concept)

Stavros

03-23-2011, 05:29 PM

Yes that a re-imagining of a Corvair I did while back then tweaked to fit the 818 dimensions. Sketching and 3d are not my strong suit, so I naturally go to photoshop for rendering, and in this case was using the design style of the new Camaro. Still need to go back and find a way to gracefully remove the roof and glass and accommodate a roll bar.

Evan78

03-23-2011, 05:33 PM

It sounds to me that doors might not make it into the car, so I wonder what the maximum step-over height would be. Maybe 24"? 30" is the height of a normal desk, that seems too high for a lot of people to swing a leg over. I guess getting that dimension off a Locust, Atom, etc would help. I wonder what these designs would look like with that incorporated.

Hiryu

03-23-2011, 05:38 PM

I'm glad somebody else brought up the driver's location...I've got some renderings I'll add later, but they all seem kinda tall in order to fit the driver--especially when compared to a lot of the renderings/drawings here...

olpro

03-23-2011, 05:46 PM

keys2heaven

03-23-2011, 05:46 PM

Benji

03-23-2011, 05:48 PM

especially hearing it from parties who claim great designer insights, yet have not shared any designs of their own, let alone constructive criticisms on whats been posted.

Stavros, I see both sides of the argument but with all due respects, no one has to show you anything at all, there will have been MANY submissions (at least I hope there have been!) which aren't in the public domain on this or the GRM forum that have been submitted to FFR.

Approximately NONE of those have to show them to you, including Olpro who I hope has also submitted one or more!

Evan78

03-23-2011, 05:54 PM

Who says doors aren't in? I don't buy that.That's fine, I'm not selling it. I'm sure it hasn't been officially stated, but there's been speculation about what features might not make it in due to the constraints such as a top, windows, and other amenities. If you don't have a top or side windows, you don't HAVE to have doors. That's why I included things like "it sounds to me" and "might". I didn't say they're definitely not in.

keys2heaven

03-23-2011, 05:54 PM

Let's just cut the crap and get back to the matter at hand. Again, competition is open to everyone. Because of that fact alone, there are going to be various design methods. I can tell you that if I were to design something, that's probably what I would do; take something I know and tweak it until it looks right to me.

Stavros

03-23-2011, 05:58 PM

Yes that's the medium used to create the Palamino rendering, using the program photoshop. I think you would know this by now olpro. Whether a beltline is penned by hand, in solidworks, or stretched, warped and skewed in photoshop, makes it still viable. The Palamino concept was generated to look like it came from the Camaro design family so there was that instant recognition even though the dimension and proportions are different since it is midengined concept.

Evan78

03-23-2011, 05:59 PM

So you started with a Camaro photo like this? and photoshopped some mods on it to make your "work"?
I am beginning to understand how you think.[/IMG]Unless whoever designed the Camaro is going to come share an 818 version with us, someone else should do it. Why should we be deprived of any adaptations?

Oppenheimer

03-23-2011, 06:04 PM

So you started with a Camaro photo like this? and photoshopped some mods on it to make your "work"?
I am beginning to understand how you think.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/allanflowers/2010-camaro-5.jpg

OMG! Get over yourself. WHO CARES what he does to come up with a 'design', so long as it looks good? If it helps him to start with something, then modify it, to the point its a wholly different thing, then why berate him for it? I for one do not care that you use some higher technique, and start with a 'blank sheet'. If in your 'original' rendering you are inspired by some aspects of some other design (how could you not be?), then how much different is that than what he is doing?

Really not caring about the purity of your worship of the design gods. I only care about the results. If you got something better than him, submit it, and let the judges decide, and stop berating the methods someone else uses just because it doesn't meet your standards of design technique.

Comments about what you don't like about his design are welcome, comments about what you don't like about the technique he uses to create them, not so much. Can we please get back to that?

jj43jj43

03-23-2011, 06:10 PM

Stavros,
I am a NASCAR fan, and would love to see a nose and wing like on the 1970 Plymouth Superbird. I am sure I am alone, but I compliment you on something different.

Jeff

keys2heaven

03-23-2011, 06:10 PM

Yeah, I definitely picked up on the Camaro styling. Nice.

Evan78

03-23-2011, 06:17 PM

OMG! Get over yourself. WHO CARES what he does to come up with a 'design', so long as it looks good? If it helps him to start with something, then modify it, to the point its a wholly different thing, then why berate him for it? I for one do not care that you use some higher technique, and start with a 'blank sheet'. If in your 'original' rendering you are inspired by some aspects of some other design (how could you not be?), then how much different is that than what he is doing?

Really not caring about the purity of your worship of the design gods. I only care about the results. If you got something better than him, submit it, and let the judges decide, and stop berating the methods someone else uses just because it doesn't meet your standards of design technique.

Comments about what you don't like about his design are welcome, comments about what you don't like about the technique he uses to create them, not so much. Can we please get back to that?Very well said, I agree 100%.

Stavros

03-23-2011, 06:22 PM

Comments about what you don't like about his design are welcome, comments about what you don't like about the technique he uses to create them, not so much. Can we please get back to that?

Amen. I completely understand though if he doesn't want to share his work on the 818. I wouldn't want to let the cat out of the bag on totally wicked design, either if I was a professional. But I do hope he submits too, since it sounds like we are in for a surprise...

In the mean time till June, It would be quite interesting to see other automotive design projects you've done olpro. We're all car guys here, and would really like to see what kind of things are in store for us.

David Hodgkins

03-23-2011, 06:31 PM

Rotr8 the forum has a max size of 800x800. That may be why the pics are resized.

Those are some slick renderings! Great Job!!

:)

Pierre-Alexandre

03-23-2011, 06:36 PM

I was thining of this car, it would be cool. ids will love it.

http://reponses.qctop.com/upload/FlashMcqueen-21976.jpg

Just kidding.

Stavros

03-23-2011, 06:37 PM

Bravo this is exactly what the tread needed

I really like the red one but with the type 2 and 3 headlights variants from the list

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/car1_frontQ.jpg

Is the door droop behind the a-piller still the same from the side renderings to the last set of isometric view? The mirror is covering that area, but it looks really good with a higher doorline.

Renders like this make me want a coupe/hardtop version that much more, even if the kit price was another 5-8K additional

Evan78

03-23-2011, 06:43 PM

Ugggh I hate Photobucket, resizes everything,,,

Little inprogress Flash site-
gets the ideas across more with the canvas tops,,,
http://nathanhtaylor.com/vid/carDemo_bugTest.swfWhat, you couldn't give us a color picker that lets us pick any color using RGB? ;) Great job, it looks awesome!

In regard to my question about door/stepover height, can you give the approximate height of the low point in the top edge of your door?

Vman7

03-23-2011, 06:49 PM

Rotr8 - Excellent work! I see you like using Photoshop as well.

olpro

03-23-2011, 06:50 PM

Oppenheimer, try not to put words in my mouth and motives in my head. Reread my posts. I merely was verifying what Stavros was doing so everyone would understand his process. It is up to them to come to their own conclusions.

Rotr8, you are very talented (I say that reluctantly because any endorsement I make here may prove to be more of a handicap than a positive thing).

Vman7

03-23-2011, 06:56 PM

Rotr8 - where did you get or can I get the side view of the WRX powerplant?

Rotr8

03-23-2011, 06:57 PM

If your wondering about the videos they are sped up over 3000% so that people dont become bored from watching them.

Evan78

03-23-2011, 06:58 PM

Is the flash site not working? ohhhh lol, nevermind, Im not quite sure how to code that, thinking about it it seems difficult, not even Buggattis site has it, it just has the 50 or so combos to pick and says call for more.Haha, no, it works great. Just giving you a hard time since you provided way more functionality than I expected. The first thing I thought of was "why not allow infinite color choices?" You know what they say about giving an inch...

Rotr8

03-23-2011, 06:59 PM

Rotr8, you are very talented (I say that reluctantly because any endorsement I make here may prove to be more of a handicap than a positive thing).

Nah dont worry about it no harm, I participated in that discussion as much as you did, I dont get offended by that kind of stuff but I do enjoy to topics,,,

Benji

03-23-2011, 07:00 PM

Wow Rotr8, in the straightest possible sense, you are giving me a trouser crises about now.

I actually don't have any criticism about your designs, the only thing I would note is that with these headlights:

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/car1_frontQ2.jpg

It almost starts hitting on a little of the McLaren F1 front end look. Not that that's a bad thing because it looks amazing, but since all of your other designs look incredible they should be incredible in their own right.

And this right here does just that:

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/car1_frontQ.jpg

That's just incredible, well done that man.

Also, are they ADV.1 wheels?

Rotr8

03-23-2011, 07:00 PM

Rotr8 - where did you get or can I get the side view of the WRX powerplant?

Google,,,,
and some have posted spec type drawings in the GRM thread...

Vman7

03-23-2011, 07:02 PM

Google,,,,
and some have posted spec type drawings in the GRM thread...

I did google a few time before and right now, but nothing so far. Will check out GRM

Thanks, David

Rotr8

03-23-2011, 07:17 PM

Haha, no, it works great. Just giving you a hard time since you provided way more functionality than I expected. The first thing I thought of was "why not allow infinite color choices?" You know what they say about giving an inch...

hahah, gotcha, actually my favorite color is the Lighning Blue, very simular to the old Civic SI Electron Blue, but I wanted my main color the Yellow Crush to be most prominent speaking to the GTM on FFRs main site,,,

Evan78

03-23-2011, 07:29 PM

Rotr8 the forum has a max size of 800x800. That may be why the pics are resized.

Those are some slick renderings! Great Job!!

:)

I think if we are going to have people posting decent resolution images or their work the size allowances should be changed in consideration of the competion theres alot of hand painted detail especially in the rear view that cant be seen with such small images
It would be nice if the site allowed the option to resize. I believe the image resizer add-on for vBulletin (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=118048) would make everyone happy. I've seen in use on numerous sites (nasioc.com for example) and it works well.

Rotr8, you could also provide a link to your Photobucket gallery for those that want to see higher resolution images (like me).

Evan78

03-23-2011, 07:38 PM

hahah, gotcha, actually my favorite color is the Lighning Blue, very simular to the old Civic SI Electron Blue, but I wanted my main color the Yellow Crush to be most prominent speaking to the GTM on FFRs main site,,,I think my favorite is the Champion White. I'm usually not a big fan of white, but I really like it on this car. Maybe it's just the dark background that makes me feel that way.

crobin4

03-23-2011, 07:41 PM

Rotor 8 me likey!

VTX

03-23-2011, 08:03 PM

Awesome work Rotr8! What program are you using?

riptide motorsport

03-23-2011, 08:09 PM

rotr8.......very nice!

VTX

03-23-2011, 08:12 PM

Wow, that's crazy. I know Solidworks really well, but I would have no idea how to do stuff like that in photoshop. You're very talented!

GUNS

03-23-2011, 08:17 PM

VTX

03-23-2011, 08:30 PM

If there was one thing I kind of didn't like about it Rotr8 is that the front fender dips down a little too low, for my tastes, behind the front wheel. Just my opinion though. But it looks very nice!

Rotr8

03-23-2011, 08:34 PM

Rotr8, those designs are amazing. At first I wasn't too sure how I like the side profile, but after staring at it for a few min I absolutely love everything about it. It's very unique yet powerful and agressive looking. I would like to encourage you to submit this design. With that said, I'm not convinced that something with this much detail can be sold for $10k a pop. Good job and thanks for sharing.

Thanks, Im fairly confident that the paneling could work within the budget. I split the paneling into smaller sections(two tone in the images) so that all seams are inward facing and have as few undercuts as possible removing the labor cost involved with finish work. Ive worked with FRPs but not gel coats so I have no idea the green state of the parts when broken free of the molds though...

Rotr8

03-23-2011, 08:39 PM

If there was one thing I kind of didn't like about it Rotr8 is that the front fender dips down a little too low, for my tastes, behind the front wheel. Just my opinion though. But it looks very nice!

This was batted back and forth in my head for a while but since I chose such a low drivers position I figured that the front fender would create a little bit of a blind spot which could be compensated for with the window arch giving back a lot of visibility in that blind spot. Think LMS style P1 or P2 car they have the same blind spot but since they are so close to the road surface their vantage point changes from having to look over a wheel ach to being behind it and looking around it. Thats pretty much the thinking behind the design of that area

keys2heaven

03-23-2011, 08:50 PM

Wait til Dave gets a look at this!

Bravo Rotr8! Fantastic design. One of the best I've seen. You should get an award for all the man hours you've put into this.

Looks like a wasp to me from the side.

Oppenheimer

03-23-2011, 09:27 PM

Rotr8

03-23-2011, 09:30 PM

Wow, nice looking designs. In the spirit of constructive criticism, the only thing I can comment on is the way the door dips down so far right behind the A pillar. I know you made a change there on the front 3/4 view, so wondering what that looks like now in profile.

Nope, its the same, if you look at the sketch of the front 3/4 you'll see the same line, I shallowed it out a little but for the most part its concealed by the mirror in that view, but I have my thought process for it in post #565

Its always weird to see something in a non perspective view right next to an exaggerated wide angle view. Side ortho's are always deceiving because we have depth perception if you look at alot of the spec'd drawings of any exotic you'd swear something was off. But otherwise that was a clear design decision, its not for everyone but there is only one other car I can think of with something similar.

0100

03-23-2011, 11:46 PM

Bloody awesome Rotr8!!

Love it.

Not sure about the dip in the door. Maybe just a tad less dip. I would follow the same angle as the top part of the side lower vent. If that makes any sense.

Again I love it!

PhyrraM

03-24-2011, 12:03 AM

I like the dip. It would allow great visability for hitting those apexes. I might even see what it looks like moved a few inches closer to the front wheel.

Evan78

03-24-2011, 12:58 AM

I loved the dip because it makes it look different and because it looks like the design could remain the same if the car doesn't get hinged doors. I scaled that low point of the top edge at about 20" off the ground and the high point at the rear at 26". Visibility is always nice too. I didn't used to be a fan of open top cars because I just don't care about sitting in the sun, but I really love the visibility when the top is down on my Miata. It makes me really appreciate the difference when obstructions are reduced.

Niburu

03-24-2011, 08:19 AM

NICE!! I would soooo build/buy that.

Justen

03-24-2011, 08:50 AM

Love this design Rotr8, is this the same car that was on the main FF5 page for the intro of the car with the driver in the background with his helmet?
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/designcomp.html
I love the hatchback look and the low door for visibility, also the F taillights go really well with the headlights on the red version and its a detail that really makes the car unique. keep up the good work!

0100

03-24-2011, 09:00 AM

I just want to state I do like the dip, I think it's just that the top door edge doesn't follow parallel to the two door lines below it, that is messing with my eyes. I think if it had the same angle as the other door lines it would flow better.

Does the door go all the way up half the fender? I like it!

I agree with Evan78, this could even probably be done without door hinges.

The more I look at this the more I want it!

FF can I send you a check for a baby blue gel coat body today?!!

Rotr8

03-24-2011, 09:03 AM

Love this design Rotr8, is this the same car that was on the main FF5 page for the intro of the car with the driver in the background with his helmet? I love the hatchback look and the low door for visibility, also the F taillights go really well with the headlights on the red version and its a detail that really makes the car unique. keep up the good work!

lol, no, but that was another design I worked up for a client of mine that is building a mid engine(front orientation) 3 Rotor RWD sportscar. I can repost that later tonight when I get home from work to show a side-by-side to show how different the two are.

Jon A

03-24-2011, 10:22 AM

Justen

03-24-2011, 10:28 AM

edited my post with the link to the pic i was talking about

Oppenheimer

03-24-2011, 10:29 AM

OK, first let me restate there is a lot to like about this rotr8 design. Yet the profile (side) view, something about it reminds of those sad 70's kit car bodies. At first I thought maybe it was just the dip, but I'm not sure. I'm no designer, so its difficult to put my finger on it. Perhaps this is just a result of seeing just a rendering, just 2D, and just the profile. Maybe seeing it in 3D I wouldn't have the same impression.

Indeed, the front 3/4 view looks fantastic to me (reminds me of 200K plus supercars, not 70's kits). When I was looking at all the renderings posted, I thought that was actually an alternate design.

So is it just me? Anyone seeing what I am, and have an idea what could be changed to eliminate that impression?

Rotr8

03-24-2011, 10:39 AM

Rotr8,

Great design. I like many things about it. The "F" tail-lights and whole tail end are really nice.

A couple pieces of constructive criticism... The doors/windows concern me a little. It does not look like there is "enough door" to fully conceal the glass when it is rolled down (assuming you would want roll down windows). The top of the windshield looks like it might obstruct a taller driver's vision. The extremely low driver position and low belt-line may have to be moved up a bit to make it driveable. Just food for thought. Great work!

-Jon A.

Thats a good point maybe when I get home Ill tweak it alittle, raising the door line so that the window can fully retract may at the same time resolve some of the crits that would like to see a shallower dip at its lowest point,,, Ill try it and post the result,

vengaspeed

03-24-2011, 10:41 AM

well, I saw some good designs here which meet requirements, and some other which are impressive but they are not meeting requirements....in one the driver position is too low, and in some others, they don't have the rear part in the red circle...
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/3415/66049067.jpg

actually do we have to strictly follow the requirements? I struggle to make my designs look beautiful and also have the part at the red circle at the back...but I think i will make it work...

keys2heaven

03-24-2011, 10:49 AM

Olimk2

03-24-2011, 10:57 AM

Wow, congrats for this, i think we've got next week winner...How long did it take to make the side view rendering?

Rotr8

03-24-2011, 10:59 AM

I showed this to my boss and that was his first comment, "What's with the dip in the door". Seems you either love it or dislike it. I'm thinking of this vehicle without a top, but with doors (where's the edge for the front of the door by the way?). I'd like to see this a bit smoother and not so pronounced.

hmmm, maybe the more appropriate question would have been instead of What? is Why? Ive mentioned the design idea behind in post 565, but with peoples suggestions I may try a shallower slop like previously mentioned,,,
the door seam split is over the front fender when I first drew it I was thinking Konigsegg style action, but the budget for the build wouldl probably not permit the gearing for it. Probably would be a butterfly design like that on Daytona Prototypes but with one hinge instead of two,,,

Rotr8

03-24-2011, 11:01 AM

Wow, congrats for this, i think we've got next week winner...How long did it take to make the side view rendering?

Its not a submitted design so it cant be posted into any winner thread, it took about 40hrs to paint the side view, about 45-50hrs each for the front and rear

Olimk2

03-24-2011, 11:22 AM

Ouch,i understand more...that the price to pay to have photographic finish then!

Olimk2

03-24-2011, 11:23 AM

Some interesting stuff apeared on Grassroot as well...

ddorrer

03-24-2011, 12:17 PM

A custom stainless exhaust can always be manufactured. Think out of the box and route each bank of the exhaust manifolds directly perpendicular to the heads and out the side just in front of the rear wheels.

This is an extreme example, but I think you get my point.

http://www.fastcoolcars.com/images/wallpaper11/gtr_mustang_side_exhaust.jpg

D2W

03-24-2011, 12:48 PM

Rotr8

03-24-2011, 02:19 PM

^^^ Yuck, that is one ugly car, I dont really pay to much attention to kits,,, the car that helped influence the design was the Garaiya

BrandonDrums

03-24-2011, 02:20 PM

Excuse some of the menu interface stuff thats for the flash site
Images-
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/openAssets.jpg
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/car1Finished_yellowOpenback.jpg
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/RO.jpg
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/SW.jpg

Very Durango 95 as well. This would be a sweet design for a remake of A Clockwork Orange. A ffr's first feature movie appearance!

Oppenheimer

03-24-2011, 02:36 PM

Yes, that was it, Bradley GT. So what needs to change to banish all thoughts of that monstrosity when looking at this design? Lets give rotr8 some useful feedback.

crobin4

03-24-2011, 02:42 PM

Yes, that was it, Bradley GT. So what needs to change to banish all thoughts of that monstrosity when looking at this design? Lets give rotr8 some useful feedback.

Actually, that didn't come to y mind until you guys mentioned it. Perhaps, we should delete the posts that mention that and agree that it never happened.:D

forced4

03-24-2011, 03:12 PM

Rotr8's sketch is a looker...except for the low door edge. That screams kit car to me. Otherwise, it is a well thought out idea.

KWXtreme

03-24-2011, 03:18 PM

Hey,

New here and thought I might post a lil something I did using the templates that were available

David Hodgkins

03-24-2011, 04:07 PM

David, Nice!

Did you submit the design to GrassRoots yet?

:)

D2W

03-24-2011, 05:34 PM

Yes, that was it, Bradley GT. So what needs to change to banish all thoughts of that monstrosity when looking at this design? Lets give rotr8 some useful feedback.

That dip through the door is it. Flatten that out and you have a winner. I like the rest of the design. By the way I don't care for the Garaiya dip either.

FFRWRX

03-24-2011, 06:31 PM

there are twice as many louvers in the front fender vent area as the front view(got too busy when I started drawing it in the front view, so I will cut it back down to 7 instead of 15)

Personally, I would delete them all together like in your original pictures. To me they make the front end too busy. It is a very short hood and with all the vents in that area it takes away from the otherwise clean look.

You have certainly raised the design proposals to a very high standard now.

Rick

riptide motorsport

03-24-2011, 07:30 PM

KWXtreme, nice design in a diferent direction!

Hiryu

03-24-2011, 08:09 PM

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/575966FF7.jpg

Like myself, he too mentioned some idiosyncrasies with the template, stating "The driving position given by the template, doesn't really allow to draw a truly rear mid-engine design. Not a cab'forward design... And the height must be well above 46' "

I was curious about the driver positioning, too--it seems awfully high and far back for a rear/mid-engined 2WD roadster. I've been adhering to it for my models, but it tends to make my cars look higher and bubblier than a lot of the sketched ones here. I have one main center tub that can use different front, rear, and hardtop components to create different looks. Here are some early wireframes:

Spec-A (simple design):
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Wireframes/SpecA-Wireframe.jpg

Spec-E (different, edgier front, rear, and hardtop components):
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Wireframes/SpecE-Wireframe.jpg

Spec-C (rounded, British-roadster-like components):
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Wireframes/SpecC-Wireframe.jpg

Spec-F:
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Wireframes/SpecF-Wireframe.jpg

Spec-S (for fun, created a scorpion-themed design):
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Wireframes/SpecS-Wireframe.jpg

A lot of work still needed; not all of the designs even cover the rear transmission, either...

Mike

Six5Stang

03-24-2011, 08:37 PM

^^^i think this is my favorite although i might leave out the purple shoes ^^^

LoadedGuy

03-25-2011, 12:20 AM

Wow, it looks really good with the wing.

bbjones121

03-25-2011, 01:33 AM

I like most of that design, except there is way to much of a droop in the door. It almost looks like something out of the cartoon network just because of that one aspect of it.

bbjones121

03-25-2011, 01:36 AM

This would be nice looking, but couldn't run a turbo on the turbo designed engine.

A custom stainless exhaust can always be manufactured. Think out of the box and route each bank of the exhaust manifolds directly perpendicular to the heads and out the side just in front of the rear wheels.

This is an extreme example, but I think you get my point.

http://www.fastcoolcars.com/images/wallpaper11/gtr_mustang_side_exhaust.jpg

Olimk2

03-25-2011, 02:41 AM

Rotr8 nice change, i prefer the single side window an "inward" intake version, and the "Panthera" rear bonnet, (cheaper to do as well).

kabacj

03-25-2011, 06:28 AM

Justen

03-25-2011, 09:00 AM

The higher door makes this great design even better, love it, I would build this right now if it were available.

0100

03-25-2011, 09:40 AM

Door lines look much better now.

Great job Rotr8! So far it's my top pick.

Niburu

03-25-2011, 10:53 AM

This would be nice looking, but couldn't run a turbo on the turbo designed engine.
that design would also be illegal to run on public streets in many states

Rotr8

03-25-2011, 11:03 AM

I love the agressive wasp like look. I also agree it looks like a kit car because of the door droop height... but I think some of us see 'kit car' because both race and production cars need to deal with side impact and that probably has some influence on the design. Kit cars as we all know dont have those regulations and have more design feedom as a result. One question. The highlight on the drivers side glass window indicates a pretty significant curve in the window glass. Is that my imgination? I ask bc I think its that eye like feature really completes the wasp look. I just dont know if its possible to make a window roll down with that much curve. Am I seeing somthing that is not there? Beyond that. Its a truely beautiful design. So many complex interactions and relationships.

when I first started painting the side profile, I had already decided that I wanted to paint in a yellow scheme. Yellows are tricky(any bright color) because sometime your highlights can get lost and it just looks like a lighter shade of the color your working with. so I thought about pics that I see when people do garage shoots and have sharper highlights rather than traditional studio lighting environment, so that was what was behind the sharp highlight creating to look of a more bulging window. It does appear different than the body highlights, I blurred the edges too much when I should have kept them sharp. I did go with the studio highlight look in the front and rear 3/4 though. It wasnt my intention to make that side view so bulgy I may go back and re paint that highlight,,, Anyone have a decent image hosting site, it appears that my photobucket account has maxed for the month, I previously used imagehost.org but they croaked....

Evan78

03-25-2011, 11:34 AM

Anyone have a decent image hosting site, it appears that my photobucket account has maxed for the month, I previously used imagehost.org but they croaked....I think smugmug.com is the best I've come across and that's what I use. Not free, but worth the money IMHO. Use my referral code (http://www.smugmug.com/?referrer=zLvrDa3rMMv3A) to save $5. The free option I like is imageshack.us (http://imageshack.us). You don't even have to register, but creating an account gives you a way to manage your images and also gives you unlimited bandwidth according to their FAQ.

Hiryu

03-25-2011, 11:34 AM

My replies seem to take a few days to show up on here, but I'll try again...

I've got a few versions of cars for FFR, but the ones with the placement of the driver in the template's position seem a bit tall. I'm curious about why the driver seems so highly placed? I created one that has a slightly lower and forward driver position (youtube always seems to really lower the resolution of my videos)):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRT9y4ONxMU

Rotr8

03-25-2011, 11:48 AM

Thanks,,,

Monkey Tricycle Flip

03-25-2011, 12:18 PM

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/SGT2.jpg
This is hot. White please. Where do I send my deposit?

David Hodgkins

03-25-2011, 12:24 PM

My replies seem to take a few days to show up on here, but I'll try again...

Hiryu,

We use an aggressive anti-spam software that includes a feature whereby if you have less than 10 posts and post a link in your thread the mods have to approve it. I check it several times a day, but yes, until you reach 10 posts, anything with a link in it will be delayed until approved.

HTH,

:)

David Hodgkins

03-25-2011, 12:31 PM

Also, for everyone's benefit, please note that this is an OPEN styling competition! The original pattern did NOT include a driver and engine placement. The pattern is NOT the final say, ESPECIALLY when it comes to driver placement. If the driver is too tall in your rendering, just move it.

HTH,

:)

PhyrraM

03-25-2011, 12:35 PM

I still prefer to not have a mini-sized, supercar looking 818. However, This one looks really nice. I prefer no rear hatch glass, but with the second pair of side windows. Of course the chin would have to be raised to a realistic level too.

Nice job!

bbjones121

03-25-2011, 12:49 PM

I love last weeks winner the most by far.

Hiryu

03-25-2011, 12:52 PM

Hiryu,

We use an aggressive anti-spam software that includes a feature whereby if you have less than 10 posts and post a link in your thread the mods have to approve it. I check it several times a day, but yes, until you reach 10 posts, anything with a link in it will be delayed until approved.

HTH,

:)

Thanks David--I was looking for something that explained the stuff in the site FAQ--makes sense.

Also, for everyone's benefit, please note that this is an OPEN styling competition! The original pattern did NOT include a driver and engine placement. The pattern is NOT the final say, ESPECIALLY when it comes to driver placement. If the driver is too tall in your rendering, just move it.

HTH,

:)

Great! Thanks again-
Mike

MikeK

03-25-2011, 02:07 PM

so a couple things, the raised door line does improve the look. It gives the front wheel area much more of that athletic feel like its being pulled from the front. I don't think I'm going to change the front and rear views, they seem to be pretty on par with this anyway,

Also added in the rear quarter window that is seen in the flash site. two versions, I like both, the one where the door trim is left adds a nice detail, and the second where there is no color split from the door trim is more representative of typical treatment, making the two windows look as if they were one,

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/testDoor1.jpg

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/testDoor1Rwindow.jpg

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/testDoor1Rwindow2.jpg

The bottom one is definitly my favorite, you have a winner there, I would build that for sure.

mske390

03-25-2011, 03:50 PM

I wish I could draw but how about something along this but with a modified front end that has a WRXish grille. I also think that if the back was squared off a little it would look better.

http://newcarwallpapers.net/peugeot-rcz/

MDRex

03-25-2011, 04:24 PM

Just saw Rotr8s pics, since I can't see them at work. If that wins and the car actually looks like that I'm 100% sold. I was on the fence between the 818 and a Roadster, leaning more towards the Roadster, but this design wins above anything else I've seen. Great job.

Mr_Guy

03-25-2011, 06:12 PM

Rotr8, love the design. One thing I noticed, with the original sketches you posted, the powerplant you used doesn't seem to represent the length of the subby transmission very well. This is why the template has that long box sticking out the back. I'm not trying to insult your intellegence or design, just thought I'd give you a heads up so you can perfect your design before submission (cause I'm a little biased for it to win!).

Rotr8

03-25-2011, 06:33 PM

Mr. Guy check out pgs 2,5,7 on this topic in the main GRM thread, based on that discussion I tried my best to represent those dimensions and thoughts about not needing the propshaft output housing. I also left a little wiggle room if it ends up being that couple inches longer. Along with that the drivers position provided in the drawings is also not accurate

To all, thanks for the compliments,,,

blueafro

03-25-2011, 07:14 PM

SGT-pretty much done
In both the glass back and open back targa versions

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/SGT1.jpg

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/SGT2.jpg

Does the targa stow onboard? If not, you will double or trebble sales if you find a way to stow it.

Do you have functionally valid reason to believe the louvers on the fenders are necessary in the typical performance envelope of this car, or are they there only to look cool?

In general, I find the side elevation of this design well crafted, and relatively well founded, but I think it a bit too busy and insectoid for a kit-car company to produce and have taken seriously. I would work to simplify it: not to be less daring, but to be more pure and purposeful.

I mean the above as constructive criticism and hope to give no offense. You clearly have talents and many skills.

Hiryu

03-25-2011, 09:01 PM

Here are some of the interchangeable designs using a common center tub. These adhere to the template driver position (as well as the front radiator, powertrain placement, and wheel positions--The high driver placement makes them look pretty tall (especially with the hardtops on), but in the future I'm going to probably lower the driver position and move him forward:

Spec A:
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecA/X1SpecA4.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecA/X1SpecA1.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecA/X1SpecA3.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecA/X1SpecAOpen2.jpg

05xtsy

03-25-2011, 09:03 PM

New Design

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/FFRNEW.jpg

Hiryu

03-25-2011, 09:07 PM

Spec C: A simple rounded version in the style of old British roadsters:

http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecC/X1SpecCFrontSideLow.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecC/X1SpecCHardtop.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecC/X1SpecCNonHardtop.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecC/X1SpecCTopRear.jpg

Hiryu

03-25-2011, 09:07 PM

Spec E: A version with (probably too many) harder edges:

http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecE/X1SpecEOpen.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecE/X1SpecESide.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecE/X1SpecESideFrontHigh.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecE/X1SpecESideHardtop.jpg

Hiryu

03-25-2011, 09:08 PM

Spec S: One for fun using a scorpion design theme:

http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecS/X1SpecS.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecS/X1SpecSFront.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecS/X1SpecSFrontSideHigh.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecS/X1SpecSHardtop1.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecS/X1SpecSSide2.jpg

Hiryu

03-25-2011, 09:09 PM

Spec F:

http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecF/X1SpecFFront.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecF/X1SpecFFrontSide.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecF/X1SpecFSide2.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecF/X1SpecFSideFrontDark.jpg

Hiryu

03-25-2011, 09:10 PM

Spec X: ?

http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecX/X1SpecX.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecX/X1SpecXFront.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecX/X1SpecXLowFrontSideDark.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecX/X1SpecXRearSide.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecX/X1SpecXSideFront.jpg

GUNS

03-25-2011, 10:22 PM

Hiryu,
I appreciate the effort, but when you compare your designs to the some of the others such as Rotr8, yours kind of look like cars from a bad N64 racing game.

keys2heaven

03-25-2011, 10:36 PM

New Design

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/FFRNEW.jpg

Have you been copying off of Rotr8's paper? Your new design is similar to his in a lot of ways.

David Hodgkins

03-25-2011, 11:08 PM

Hiryu,
I appreciate the effort, but when you compare your designs to the some of the others such as Rotr8, yours kind of look like cars from a bad N64 racing game.

Submissions can be sketches, drawings, etc. It is the quality of the design that matters, not the quality of the software used. Please keep the negative comments out of the thread. We're here to support the designs and those who create them.

:)

bbjones121

03-25-2011, 11:08 PM

That is sweet!

New Design

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/FFRNEW.jpg

bromikl

03-25-2011, 11:10 PM

Have you been copying off of Rotr8's paper? Your new design is similar to his in a lot of ways.

I can see why you might say that, K2H. The color and low beltline give a nod to Rotr8's design. But when you compare the three, overall styling is closer to 05xtsy's previous submission. The extremes of Rotr8's design are gone; the front and rear lights, roof, rear hatch and front intake are definitely not Rotr8's.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/testDoor1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/FFRNEW.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/FFRsecond1.jpg

05xtsy

03-25-2011, 11:14 PM

Have you been copying off of Rotr8's paper? Your new design is similar to his in a lot of ways.

Nope. drew the sketch a week ago. Made it blaze yellow after my wrx. What I see as "similar" are the black panels and the color? Other than that, I think everything else is different.

MDRex

03-25-2011, 11:35 PM

05xtsy

03-25-2011, 11:54 PM

I can see how someone might say there are similarities. But really when you look at them you can see they are also quite different. I actually like your new sketch a lot more than your last, and I really liked that one too.

Thanks,

After seeing Rotr8's mad skills and professionalism this week, it inspired me to step up my game. Im going to go into a lot more detail on it. Im also working on a nice blend of ariel atom meets a certain ferrari. I'll post it when its out of the paint booth.

05xtsy

03-25-2011, 11:59 PM

lol, no comment...

whatever

GUNS

03-26-2011, 12:12 AM

Submissions can be sketches, drawings, etc. It is the quality of the design that matters, not the quality of the software used. Please keep the negative comments out of the thread. We're here to support the designs and those who create them.

:)

Ok I think the quality of design is not up to par, regardless of what technique was used. Why should we keep negative comments out? I'll be the first to admit that I have absolutely zero talent when it comes to being able to design a car, but when I am going to be potentially investing a significant amount of money into one of these designs you better believe that I will give my input. I personally don't feel like we should blow smoke up peoples ***** for trying. It's like the people that go on American Idol that are terrible, but think they have a chance because their friends and families told them that they were great and didn't have the balls to tell them the truth. This is just my opinion of course, but if you are going to post your designs on a public forum you better be ready for any criticism (good or bad) that comes with it.

05xtsy

03-26-2011, 01:06 AM

ok so I will comment,,,
hope we dont see too much Ferrari and Atom in your next design,,, I would go back and evolve your first design it was at least original,,,
anyone thinking Im being a dick, you go and spend weeks in man hours on something and see something thats a poor attempt of flattery come up within a day,,,
I wont get into an argument or comment on this anymore, my SGT front 3/4 view is complete, next rear 3/4 SGT and then on to pen a friends design for him...
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6511/ffrnew.jpg (http://img402.imageshack.us/i/ffrnew.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

I don't really know what to say, I had not seen your design previous to drawing mine. If you want I can make a few others that aren't so similar...... Check that, I don't care.

05xtsy

03-26-2011, 01:40 AM

ok so I will comment,,,
hope we dont see too much Ferrari and Atom in your next design,,, I would go back and evolve your first design it was at least original,,,
anyone thinking Im being a dick, you go and spend weeks in man hours on something and see something thats a poor attempt of flattery come up within a day,,,
I wont get into an argument or comment on this anymore, my SGT front 3/4 view is complete, next rear 3/4 SGT and then on to pen a friends design for him...
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6511/ffrnew.jpg (http://img402.imageshack.us/i/ffrnew.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Might want to tilt your nose down. A poor attempt at flattery? boy are you wrong and yes you sound like a snobby *******. I DID NOT SEE YOUR DESIGN BEFORE I DREW MINE!!!! Honeslty, the cars share some stuff, but all of those pieces aren't original to your thinking. Vents, windows, mirrors, and slplitters are very commonly placed in the same locations for function.

Monkey Tricycle Flip

03-26-2011, 01:44 AM

ok so I will comment,,,
hope we dont see too much Ferrari and Atom in your next design,,, I would go back and evolve your first design it was at least original,,,
Let's all take it easy. Frankly, your design screams 'Venom GT' to me - which is fine. It's hot as hell and by far my favorite. It is stunningly gorgeous and the bar against which I'll compare all other designs. I see only minor similarities between it and 05xtsy's (which I also like).

It's 2011; everything is derivative...

05xtsy

03-26-2011, 01:44 AM

Really can't get over the "poor attempt at flattery" comment. Can we get you some more grapes and maybe a fan, are you tired from creating the earth.. dont worry, tomorrow is sunday you can rest then.

Horhay

03-26-2011, 02:25 AM

Your design does have 4 wheels...

That newest rendering from Rotr8 looks a lot like a McLaren MP4-12C GT3. What a poor attempt at flattery.

Jeff Kleiner

03-26-2011, 06:21 AM

Submissions can be sketches, drawings, etc. It is the quality of the design that matters, not the quality of the software used. Please keep the negative comments out of the thread. We're here to support the designs and those who create them.

:)

Hey David,
After watching the direction this has headed over the past few days I think the competition rules need to be amended with an addition:
You must agree to leave your ego at the door before submitting designs.

Geeze, I thought it was a design competition, not a whizzing contest.

I'm done,
Jeff

riptide motorsport

03-26-2011, 08:36 AM

I agree, tone it down.................for the second time.

FFRWRX

03-26-2011, 08:40 AM

Ok I think the quality of design is not up to par, regardless of what technique was used. Why should we keep negative comments out?

I think the quality of the design is amazing! Each one just keeps getting better. And as to one person copying another, well, most of them look very similar to the Lotus Elise to me, so they all look similar in a way. So what? That's a great looking car and could use a few tweaks.

You know the old saying "praise in public and criticize in private". Nothing wrong with adapting that here. If someone specifically asks for comments on their design then they are open to both positive and negative. If someone just posts a design and you don't like it, don't comment; they'll get the message.

Rick

Rotr8

03-26-2011, 09:36 AM

leaving as much 'ego' at the door as I can with this post -

Might want to tilt your nose down. A poor attempt at flattery? boy are you wrong and yes you sound like a snobby *******. I DID NOT SEE YOUR DESIGN BEFORE I DREW MINE!!!! Honeslty, the cars share some stuff, but all of those pieces aren't original to your thinking. Vents, windows, mirrors, and slplitters are very commonly placed in the same locations for function.

No there are plenty of cars that have those functions, but thats also like saying because the R8 and 458 have the necessity for those functions so they are going to place them in the same area and have them influence key aspects to a design

Let's all take it easy. Frankly, your design screams 'Venom GT' to me - which is fine. It's hot as hell and by far my favorite. It is stunningly gorgeous and the bar against which I'll compare all other designs. I see only minor similarities between it and 05xtsy's (which I also like).
It's 2011; everything is derivative...
???? Thanks for the compliments, not to say that there aren't cars that I strive to incorporate influences into my work but I dont see any Venom GT in this. Although I guess I drew an Exige aftermarket diffuser into the rear but that will be explained in the final presentation as an option that customers would be able to go out and buy and be able to bolt right up to the undercarraige, as well as the APR wing, if they choose.
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/5501/testdoor1.jpg (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/testdoor1.jpg/)
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5610/hennesseyvenomgt109.jpg (http://img163.imageshack.us/i/hennesseyvenomgt109.jpg/)

Hey David,
After watching the direction this has headed over the past few days I think the competition rules need to be amended with an addition:
You must agree to leave your ego at the door before submitting designs.
Geeze, I thought it was a design competition, not a whizzing contest.
I'm done,
Jeff
I do agree that the rules are really loose, food for thought here are what typical rules from a design comp look like, I encourage everyone to read these if they have some spare time and see where Im coming from, vastly different than the ones here(not saying there is only one way to run a competition but I think people should read and consider how much effort is put into a rules book before holding a cometition like this) - Click on Competition Guidelines tab to the right - http://www.local-motors.com/competition.php?c=45

Thanks,
After seeing Rotr8's mad skills and professionalism this week, it inspired me to step up my game. Im going to go into a lot more detail on it. Im also working on a nice blend of ariel atom meets a certain ferrari. I'll post it when its out of the paint booth.
Why would you not want to bring your A game to begin with ,quality over quantity, its a big prize and honor, I'm not sandbagging it I go all out all the time, wouldn't have it any other way.

I'll guess I'll say this again, I don't know any of you so there is really no way for me to knock any of you on a personal level(unlike some others), same goes for the opposite don't pretend that Im friends with any of you either this is a competition again with some money and recognition on the line so its going to get heated and defensive sometimes, when coincidental designs pop up. If this were a post your artwork for a crit I wouldn't have a problem at all, kumbiyas' all around... Last night I sent a PM to Guns requesting he cool it down before a mod said the same thing today, but after hearing his explanation I do agree with him on all accounts. All future work I do will be kept without being posted, and then submitted in the final week to GRM, although I feel it destroys the spirit of the contest but hey thats me...

MODS, is there anyway you can go and delete images that quote my post with images of my design, thanks,,,

keys2heaven

03-26-2011, 10:49 AM

Nope. drew the sketch a week ago. Made it blaze yellow after my wrx. What I see as "similar" are the black panels and the color? Other than that, I think everything else is different.

It was the front fender flare that grabbed my eye. After staring at Rotr8's design for a couple if days, guess it was ingrained my head. Nice design though. Nice to see the fender hump/flare with a door with a straight line.

slopoke

03-26-2011, 11:48 AM

for the sake of fun, all my "renderings" will be done with the talent of a two year old with a #2 pencil

Hiryu

03-26-2011, 11:48 AM

Hiryu,
I appreciate the effort, but when you compare your designs to the some of the others such as Rotr8, yours kind of look like cars from a bad N64 racing game.

Well shoot...I was hoping for at least the quality of a bad GameCube racing game. Oh well, I guess that's why I'm a software engineer and not a car designer (lucky for everybody out there, huh?). I'm just having fun and prefer to design in 3D so I know what the final outcome of the design is--There are great designs here; I just hope they come out as good looking when they're transformed into the real world version. I have faith in FFR to make/choose a great design.

Rotr8

03-26-2011, 12:15 PM

for the sake of fun, all my "renderings" will be done with the talent of a two year old with a #2 pencil

hey now, crayons are fun, my friends actually started taking them away from me when we would go out to Pizza Hut, hahhahah.

Rotr8

03-26-2011, 12:34 PM

I just hope they come out as good looking when they're transformed into the real world version. I have faith in FFR to make/choose a great design.

I dont think there is anything to worry about in that department, the cars they produce look like the originals right? I have complete confidence that what ever thought out design ends up being chosen that it will look like its supposed to given the designers are actually thinking things out...

GUNS

03-26-2011, 12:41 PM

Well shoot...I was hoping for at least the quality of a bad GameCube racing game. Oh well, I guess that's why I'm a software engineer and not a car designer (lucky for everybody out there, huh?). I'm just having fun and prefer to design in 3D so I know what the final outcome of the design is--There are great designs here; I just hope they come out as good looking when they're transformed into the real world version. I have faith in FFR to make/choose a great design.

Sorry if I was too harsh on you earlier. It's all about having fun and sounds like you have a good attitude about it.

05xtsy

03-26-2011, 12:44 PM

Why would you not want to bring your A game to begin with ,quality over quantity, its a big prize and honor, I'm not sandbagging it I go all out all the time, wouldn't have it any other way.

I was patiently waiting for you to show all your cards.

Rotr8

03-26-2011, 02:01 PM

all my cards? don't make me laugh...

I said this before, I will not continue into this topic, but I will answer and defend my work at any time, and I do have an anwswer for everything in my work, I just dont go making **** up...

//// end threadjack.

crobin4

03-26-2011, 02:07 PM

Hiryu,
I appreciate the effort, but when you compare your designs to the some of the others such as Rotr8, yours kind of look like cars from a bad N64 racing game.
Can you show me yours?

GUNS

03-26-2011, 02:09 PM

Can you show me yours?

I already stated earlier that I have zero talent in designing cars, that's not the issue. However, I do feel like I can voice my input on something that I will be potentially spending a substantial amount of money on.

crobin4

03-26-2011, 02:09 PM

sub322

03-26-2011, 02:46 PM

When posting the picture of the weekly winners would it be possible to show the veiw of the car for the third week like you showed the 2nd week winner. It gave a nice veiw of the front of the car and down the drivers side.

Rotr8

03-26-2011, 03:18 PM

well that would be nice, but not everyone is concepting out multiple views, which doesnt give a sense of the overall package.

olpro

03-26-2011, 05:26 PM

[QUOTE=Hiryu;12870]----- I'm just having fun and prefer to design in 3D so I know what the final outcome of the design is--There are great designs here; I just hope they come out as good looking when they're transformed into the real world version. ----

Actually you can cheat a car design in a 3D program just as easily as in 2D drawings. That is one of the drawbacks of the 3D programs, they give the ILLUSION of reality. Hiryu, your wheel and tires are a good example of that - they are quite unrealistic in proportion and size.
Not that I haven't done that kind of thing too in both 3D and 2D, it's just that a viewer should always be skeptical no matter what the media.
In your work, I would highly recommend that you really simplify the lighting, backgrounds, wild colors, etc. and concentrate on the forms and design ideas. The "glow" options should be used very sparingly, if at all. They just distract, confuse and seem to be substituting flash for substance. They are also going to invite more critical evaluations than a simpler presentation. Also you might consider bumping up your "resolutions" because your surfaces really have a case of the jaggies.

Hiryu

03-26-2011, 08:47 PM

Actually you can cheat a car design in a 3D program just as easily as in 2D drawings. That is one of the drawbacks of the 3D programs, they give the ILLUSION of reality. Hiryu, your wheel and tires are a good example of that - they are quite unrealistic in proportion and size.
Not that I haven't done that kind of thing too in both 3D and 2D, it's just that a viewer should always be skeptical no matter what the media.
In your work, I would highly recommend that you really simplify the lighting, backgrounds, wild colors, etc. and concentrate on the forms and design ideas. The "glow" options should be used very sparingly, if at all. They just distract, confuse and seem to be substituting flash for substance. They are also going to invite more critical evaluations than a simpler presentation. Also you might consider bumping up your "resolutions" because your surfaces really have a case of the jaggies.

It's funny you mention the wheels and tires--I had some more normal ones, but I threw in some that looked like they were from some of the sketchings here since I thought they'd have more "pizzaz". The glow was just there because I haven't gotten around to any details like adding headlight glass and actual light assemblies (these renderings were very early), as is the poly count (I don't think upping the actual resolution would do anything but make the jaggies even more apparent, but I think I got what you mean).

http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecA/X1Angle2.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X1SpecA/X1Angle1.jpg

As far as cheating--You make a good point. I just meant that a lot of the 2D sketchings can have exaggerated ride heights, trimmed bottoms of wheels, lower cabs, etc. and not look as obviously out-of-proportion (in fact it makes them look better) as it would in 3D, where you seem to be more forced to adhere to real-life proportions, etc. For example, you have to make sure the car looks good from infinite angles in 3D and can't really pull off tweaks that make it look good from a single perspective. But I'm probably preaching to the choir; these are just things I've personally noticed when messing around with the stuff.

As for my video game cars, I'm just messing around at this point to see what shapes might work with the dimensions of the car (and apparently I'm failing miserably :D ). That's why the poly count is so low and there are no details; it's easier to get a shape and then refine than it is to constantly reshape a refined, high-poly image. Besides, now that I know I can reposition the driver, I want to work on something a bit sleeker.

Plus, Gun doesn't like these designs, so I think I'm gonna ditch them. Even though I doubt FFR would go with my designs (I honestly don't like some of them in their current shape), I don't want even the remotest possibility of having them be put in production (who knows, Jim's eye twitch and Dave's having to keep FFR's secret to himself might both turn into full-blown psychotic episodes and they might actually pick one of my designs) and then having Gun be pissed off because he wanted to get one. I just wish he was around to tell me the truth before I made a fool of myself on American Idol...

Thank you greatly for the suggestions--I appreciate any and all help; especially comments with details that can help me improve.

Mike

05xtsy

03-27-2011, 04:19 PM

This is my ariel atom meets ferrari design. Its modular, so their is a fully open version and a closed version. I will be highlighting some simple mechanisms to show how everything works in my next renderings.

Fully closed Race version
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/Mod1.jpg

Fully open race version
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/Mod1FullopenRacing.jpg

mske390

03-27-2011, 04:25 PM

I wish I could draw to put my ideas down but can't. I think it should pay some homeage to the WRX ro Subaru since the powertrain is coming from there. I would love to something like the Puegeot RCZ with a Impreza/WRX ish front grille and the rear that is a little sqaurer or boxy than what it has.

http://www.peugeot.co.uk/showroom/range/showroom-peugeot-RCZ/medias/img/Gallery/7_RCZ_0907PC006.jpg

http://www.peugeot.co.uk/showroom/range/showroom-peugeot-RCZ/medias/img/Gallery/8_RCZ_0907PC024.jpg

GUNS

03-27-2011, 05:22 PM

Cool concept! Do you have any other angles?

05xtsy

03-27-2011, 05:45 PM

Cool concept! Do you have any other angles?

:) working on an iso front and rear now.

keys2heaven

03-27-2011, 06:00 PM

This is my ariel atom meets ferrari design. Its modular, so their is a fully open version and a closed version. I will be highlighting some simple mechanisms to show how everything works in my next renderings.

Fully open race version
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/Mod1FullopenRacing.jpg

^^^ I like the open race concept a lot ^^^

Jon A

03-27-2011, 06:21 PM

That is a really cool design. I love the concept. ...can't wait to see more views.

-Jon A.

MurrayT

03-27-2011, 11:52 PM

So far, this is my favorite design for the 818. The side view is fantastic. Hope the front and rear are just as great.

bromikl

03-28-2011, 08:08 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/Mod1.jpg

Nicely done.

riptide motorsport

03-28-2011, 08:51 AM

things just keep getting better and better!

PhyrraM

03-28-2011, 11:05 AM

things just keep getting better and better!

+1. Looks good!

agepag

03-28-2011, 11:19 AM

Wow, close contest and lets build this thing!

Oppenheimer

03-28-2011, 12:07 PM

OK, constructive comments for the latest 05xtsy design. Overall, I like it a lot. I'm wondering if it would look better of the gap between top of windshiled and top of carbon fiber looking roolbar cover were not so wide. It looks like the windshield could be moved back farther. Note that the top of windshield is actually shy of of the steering wheel. Room to move there. Also the rollbar cover looks like it could be moved forward (of course dependent on where rollbars end up).

Also, the way the optional top curves, but then ends abruptly at the rollbar, something about the way the profile looks is not appealing to me. I'm thinking if it were more fastback aft of rollbar or something that might look better. Maybe just making roof smaller (less windshield to rollbar gap) would fix it too (plus top would be lighter, easier to store).

Would like to see wing as optional.

Monkey Tricycle Flip

03-28-2011, 12:37 PM

More great designs!

I was just thinking... I really hope that the final design doesn't look like the ******* offspring of a 1st generation Toyota MR2 and a BMW Z1. I have a bad feeling that it might...

Monkey Tricycle Flip

03-28-2011, 12:41 PM

I'm wondering if it would look better of the gap between top of windshiled and top of carbon fiber looking roolbar cover were not so wide. It looks like the windshield could be moved back farther.
I concur with this. I think the windshield should be as high as the rollbar and more steeply raked.

I really like it, otherwise.

bbjones121

03-28-2011, 12:42 PM

I agree, I am worried about that too. I absolutely do not want anyone seeing me drive by and say it looks like a body kit on a car. It needs a defining look so that your average joe will not try to make any comparison to your average car.

More great designs!

I was just thinking... I really hope that the final design doesn't look like the ******* offspring of a 1st generation Toyota MR2 and a BMW Z1. I have a bad feeling that it might...

JRL

03-28-2011, 01:46 PM

05 xtsy your concepts are outstanding...................

Monkey Tricycle Flip

03-28-2011, 02:36 PM

I agree, I am worried about that too.
I want something that looks aggressive - almost supercar like. Something like a mini-Venom GT. What I don't want is a Miata or S2000 knock off...

The 818 will have a wheelbase of 95", almost identical to the 2nd generation MR2 which is perfect in my opinion. It will be ~5" longer than a Lotus Elise and ~1" shorter than a BMW Z1.

Monkey Tricycle Flip

03-28-2011, 03:57 PM

I'll just leave this here for inspiration... On of my all-time favorites, the Ferrari P4/5 Competizione:

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/10/P4-5-Side-View.jpg

crackedcornish

03-28-2011, 04:12 PM

bbjones121

03-28-2011, 04:35 PM

See now something like that would leave someone asking what in the world was that sweet car that just drove by.

I'll just leave this here for inspiration... On of my all-time favorites, the Ferrari P4/5 Competizione:

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/10/P4-5-Side-View.jpg

D2W

03-28-2011, 04:51 PM

these are my favorites so far
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/b51448e6.jpg
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k550/NXXN/Form_2.jpg
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k550/NXXN/FRONT_F2copy.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z275/keys2heaven/Form_R2.jpg

unfortunately the "Barney '05" is just a drawing I found on the web and isn't entered in the competition, the rest are by NXXN, from over on grassroots

The "Barney 05" drawing is the original concept drawing for the Lotus 211. We think alike because everything you posted are also my favorites along with the last 2 designs submitted by 05xtsy and the espera-sbarro.

Monkey Tricycle Flip

03-28-2011, 05:20 PM

See now something like that would leave someone asking what in the world was that sweet car that just drove by.
Amen! The proportions of the P4/5 look just about right for a WRX engine/tranny setup, and the scoops could feed the intercooler and/or radiator. The cockpit would have to be completely redone, obviously, but I think it could be made to work.

Like I said, just leaving it here to inspire some of the talented folks on here! :D

Rotr8

03-28-2011, 05:38 PM

I want something that looks aggressive - almost supercar like. Something like a mini-Venom GT.

A mini Venom GT is an Exige,,,

Rotr8

03-28-2011, 05:40 PM

The "Barney 05" drawing is the original concept drawing for the Lotus 211. We think alike because everything you posted are also my favorites along with the last 2 designs submitted by 05xtsy and the espera-sbarro.

I hope FFR know that, they've posted it on the contest rules page, Im sure who ever Barney is he/she would not appreciate the mis-representation...

Evan78

03-28-2011, 05:57 PM

It's probably Barney Hatt from Lotus.

Vman7

03-28-2011, 06:15 PM

I like that Barney and the red one a lot. 05xtsy's latest spyder version I like a whole lot, but I do agree that the windshield should be moved back some, as well as moving the rollbar/humps a little forward, other then that it looks great! Espera-Sbarro Turbo S20 is a awesome looking car as well, and of course it was done by students so I doubt if there is any form of a patent on it.

Vman7

03-28-2011, 06:48 PM

Here is a car a found today, that is pretty cool. The Lobini H1, if you do a search in google on it you will find a few more views on it.

http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200708/lobini-h1-2-1_460x0w.jpg

crackedcornish

03-28-2011, 06:56 PM

kinda neat...but to me, it looks a little heavy towards the tail end in this view
http://www.vipcar.com.vn/media/800x600/Lobini-H1_2007_wallpaper_02.jpg

maybe if the body didn't have the rake it would look even better

Vman7

03-28-2011, 07:00 PM

Twinspool

03-28-2011, 07:20 PM

05xtsy

03-28-2011, 09:55 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/Picture26.png

The lights. although they may be a tiny bit low (minimum height is about 24-25"?) It wouldn't be overly complicated to incorporate a higher light into the design. I chose the current location, because it would allow for various options on aftermarket headlights. The use of the carbon fiber panels all around would save weight and could technically be replaced with cheaper variants, body color or other composites.

The door. The length of the door and how it would operate are up in the air right now, it is too long to open sideways, but solutions could be; shortening the door line to the front of the rollcage, bring the window further back or to use a lamborghini door styled bracket, which I think would fit with the styling of the car. I have a few ideas for ingress and egress behind the door, not showing hem yet, but I think they will provide a good solution to those issues.

The Roll Cage. The idea of how the roll cage jets downward, if it isn't apparent, is to dress up the frame without completely covering it with body panels, and to make the driver feel protected in a car that is very open.

The triangle piece (just under the bottom of the rear door line) is so the body panel can be tightened in after it is fit into place, think of a vice. It won't be the only thing holding it, there will be a slot that the panel fits in, the wedge piece is only to tighten it down.

The black plastic "inner rocker panel thingy" (directly above the bottom red panel) There is a slight kink in it, Im not versed in aerodynamics, but my idea behind it was that any air coming in at that angle would be split, pulling "slightly" more air in up top and "a bit more" of the heavier elements like water or other debris would be channeled away from both the driver and air intakes. Again, NOT SURE if that would work, just what I thought when making it.

Again, thank you for the comments, good or bad, I respect and wan't the criticism.

Olimk2

03-28-2011, 10:28 PM

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UvxGoyz5SGg/SjmnUD-8T4I/AAAAAAAAAhQ/6ymn4RRSqQ8/s320/lobini-h1.jpg

It's normal it takes inspiration from Lotus, the designer is from Lotus! Nice doors, one ton/180hp vw turbo. It' 200 kilos over the FFR target, makes me worry...Original Elise with alloys discs brakes tiny wheels and ultra light k series engine was 725kg, now above as well (860-910)...

bauhaus

03-28-2011, 11:37 PM

New Design

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/FFRNEW.jpg

Hey 05xtsy,

Really nice design - this is in my top two or three right now. Sorry for the slow response, I just wanted to give you props for a really well done design. I think this is by far your best one yet and don't let people get you down on this one. Your latest red car is definitely in a wrong direction and I would go back to this an maybe make some minor revisions/improvements - keep going with the simplification process. A good design should stand on it's own without tons of vents, wings, etc.

Cheers and keep up the good work!

Hiryu

03-29-2011, 12:11 AM

I know I'm just going for the big hurt again, but here's an early (read: low poly-count, low detail) exo-skeleton concept:

http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X3/X3J.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X3/X3G.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X3/X3F.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X3/X3H.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X3/X3I.jpg

Mike

05xtsy

03-29-2011, 12:50 AM

Hey 05xtsy,

Really nice design - this is in my top two or three right now. Sorry for the slow response, I just wanted to give you props for a really well done design. I think this is by far your best one yet and don't let people get you down on this one. Your latest red car is definitely in a wrong direction and I would go back to this an maybe make some minor revisions/improvements - keep going with the simplification process. A good design should stand on it's own without tons of vents, wings, etc.

Cheers and keep up the good work!

Thank you very much, as far as the red car being in a wrong direction, more people are liking it than not at this point, And it is hard to please everyone, so I will let the group decide. as of now, I am continuing with all of my designs.

05xtsy

03-29-2011, 02:33 AM

Standard fully open version, not frills, well except the carbon fiber.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/Picture26.png

Olimk2

03-29-2011, 03:28 AM

Hey Hiryu, by far your most interesting concept, but i don't understand well your "wing over wing" design...Front and rear grey pieces need to be more refined as well than simple "flat" panels. Study a KTM XBOW and come back!
You're on the right track i think...

05xtsy, i prefer the red one so far but as someone already told you, i would make the door smaller in order to place the windshield rearward, taller and more reclined (same angle as rollbar cover), would gain a lot on the overall look...better balanced.

Jon A

03-29-2011, 06:04 AM

05xtsy, i prefer the red one so far but as someone already told you, i would make the door smaller in order to place the windshield rearward, taller and more reclined (same angle as rollbar cover), would gain a lot on the overall look...better balanced.

05xtsy - I agree with the above. I also like the red design better than the yellow (though, that is cool too). I think the red one is my favorite design so far. I can't wait to see some other views. When you play around with the windshield (taller and slightly more leaned back), you might want to play with the rear edge/angle of the door... you could make the angle match the roll bar cover. That might help shorten the door a little. How is a window in the door going to work? I don't see a roll down one working but perhaps there are other solutions. I think your open version could probably be produced for the target price. The targa top, windows and the panel that goes in the door could be an option for interested buyers. Show us some other views and/or configurations!!

-Jon A.

crackedcornish

03-29-2011, 07:17 AM

another inspirational pic, for you designers who aren't taking advantage of the low height of the MR placed boxer engine, and are making the front and the rear of the car too high
http://www.motortopia.com/files/cars/album_the_perfect_ten/4755f5e36b006/Spyder550A_10x7jpg_Thumbnail1.jpg

05xtsy

03-29-2011, 07:29 AM

05xtsy - I agree with the above. I also like the red design better than the yellow (though, that is cool too). I think the red one is my favorite design so far. I can't wait to see some other views. When you play around with the windshield (taller and slightly more leaned back), you might want to play with the rear edge/angle of the door... you could make the angle match the roll bar cover. That might help shorten the door a little. How is a window in the door going to work? I don't see a roll down one working but perhaps there are other solutions. I think your open version could probably be produced for the target price. The targa top, windows and the panel that goes in the door could be an option for interested buyers. Show us some other views and/or configurations!!

-Jon A.

Gave her a different look, before I continue with all the details, any takers?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/Mod1newroof1.jpg

crobin4

03-29-2011, 07:34 AM

Gave her a different look, before I continue with all the details, any takers?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/Mod1newroof1.jpg

Everything but the nose.

05xtsy

03-29-2011, 07:44 AM

Like is said, a have to shine it up a bit, ahahah going as fast as I'm able to.

keys2heaven

03-29-2011, 08:25 AM

Don't like the squared off front end. Would like to see more of a droop.

crobin4

03-29-2011, 09:17 AM

Don't like the squared off front end. Would like to see more of a droop.

+1 agreed.

Steve91T

03-29-2011, 09:31 AM

Don't like the squared off front end. Would like to see more of a droop.

Same here. That last pic is the best so far. Just keep playing with the front.

Steve

Jon A

03-29-2011, 09:43 AM

Personally, I don't mind the original front... kind of an Audi R8 look. It also may make getting into parking lots easier.

-Jon A

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTxAHmdl4WxIFzYbAUNXgTJkr3bPmLo4 aHzehRM3_U9BpRB5fSoxA

Monkey Tricycle Flip

03-29-2011, 10:08 AM

Just a thought:

The WRX engine in stock form uses a top-mount intercooler that sits, as the name implies, directly on top of the engine. The hood scoop in the WRX is functional; it forces air through the intercooler. I would like to see more designs that incorporate some form of forced air setup on the decklid/engine cover - in all likelihood this car will need/want it.

On the topic of scoops, it probably makes sense to have side scoops feed a radiator that sits between the engine and the passenger compartment.

Thoughts?

05xtsy

03-29-2011, 10:19 AM

Like is said, a have to shine it up a bit, ahahah going as fast as I'm able to.

Just a thought:

The WRX engine in stock form uses a top-mount intercooler that sits, as the name implies, directly on top of the engine. The hood scoop in the WRX is functional; it forces air through the intercooler. I would like to see more designs that incorporate some form of forced air setup on the decklid/engine cover - in all likelihood this car will need/want it.

On the topic of scoops, it probably makes sense to have side scoops feed a radiator that sits between the engine and the passenger compartment.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I think what has been said before from Dave and others is that a few things might have to be moved for the design. There might be a way to get that air flow from the side scoops , like you said, pushed to the intercooler. The ideal would be to have as much air as possible flowing to it, so I guess since it's a mid engine design the side vents are a good bet.

FFRWRX

03-29-2011, 10:21 AM

Just a thought:
I would like to see more designs that incorporate some form of forced air setup on the decklid/engine cover - in all likelihood this car will need/want it.

Doesn't work very well with a mid-engine design. The airflow is blocked by the windshield/roof/rear window so you get a dead area above the engine lid.

Steve91T

03-29-2011, 10:53 AM

The MR2 Turbo had this problem. The small side vents did not allow for enough airflow to the intercooler, which was mounted on the left side of the engine bay.

I'd like to see the 818 take air from under the car, directly after the rear firewall, which is high pressure. Then travel up into the engine bay, through the intercooler, and exit out the rear, or the engine lid, which is low pressure. This would not only supply lots of air to the IC, but also create downforce.

The radiator needs to remain in the front. I'd also like to see it take air from down low, go through the radiator, and exit through the hood. This would also create downforce. Take a look at the Elise.

The MR2 took air from the front, through a vertically placed radiator, then exited downward, creating lift, which is not a good thing.

It would be very easy to design some very effective aerodynamics into this car.

Steve

Steve91T

03-29-2011, 10:55 AM

Doesn't work very well with a mid-engine design. The airflow is blocked by the windshield/roof/rear window so you get a dead area above the engine lid.

It does if you take the air from under the car, and let it exit up top. Reverse of a hood scoop, where the hood scoop is taking ram, high pressure air. The scoop on a mid engine car would be the exit.

Steve

Senger

03-29-2011, 11:25 AM

I really like what you have going, 05xtcy. Especially the hardtop version. It is much cleaner and flows better. Looking forward to additional views. @Rotr8- stunning work. I like your side-view studies and agree with forced4 about the low sill, since it creates a slightly pinched "weak point" in the design. Makes for good visibility, however, so I can't deny the practical advantage of it. Can't wait to see the clay modelers' work on here. That is ambitious, but a smart way to guage whether the design works or not.

This is the first of three submissions, which is built over guesstimated frame geometry based on the single image and general dimensions provided by FF. Some of the features include removable rear quarters for widebody upgrades, customizable b-pillar sail panels, and lightwight "doorlets" which swing forward and up. Dimensions are similar to an Elise @ 152"l, 48"h, 66"w. The foundation of the Carve is a large 1-piece composite tub. Seats have yet to be sourced and placed in CAD. Any feedback is greatly appreciated!

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5227/5571703356_d3a6eff0ee_z.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5223/5571703294_dd0e734aeb_z.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5254/5571703248_e4c3f50310_z.jpg

Oppenheimer

03-29-2011, 11:37 AM

latest 05xtsy, I really like the way the roof looks now. Like the way the side window looks too. But something about how the C piller integrates into the quarter panel makes it look chunky. The rest of the design is all thin lines, then that area looks bloated by comparison.

Also not sure about the whole two-tone thing. Maybe its my monitor though.

Also the area behind the rear wheel, the red section, too many sharp angles in a small area.

Oppenheimer

03-29-2011, 02:50 PM

The Carve (by Senger) is certainly interesting. It reminds me of a modern, re-imagined Dune Buggy, with lots of high tech touches. Certainly more cool to drive around than a traditional Dune Buggy, but to be honest, not what I'd personally be looking for with the 818. My suggestions, make it a little more practical (a complete door), and add an option for a top, and tone down the Dune Buggy aspect a bit.

I'm assumming by posting here you are looking for feedback. Hope you aren't offended by me offering mine.

Reload

03-29-2011, 04:06 PM

Marc, did you submit your "Carve" design for last week or this week? I'd rather not submit mine this week and have it be compared to your awesome design. I've got a design with an opening in the door area but it is not as innovative as yours, more traditional I suppose.

-Reload

Oppenheimer

03-29-2011, 04:33 PM

Spawn of S2000 and a Pagani Zonda, cool!

Exactly what came to mind when I saw this image! I do like it, BTW.

David Hodgkins

03-29-2011, 04:48 PM

When I saw the Carve the first thing I thought was "The return of the perky butt!" (Gotta be an 'old timer' to understand the history of the perky butt and FFR I suppose...)

There is a lot I like about this design, but it looks unfinished to me. I can just imagine hitting water while making a left turn and being pelted with water through that hole in the side. For some reason, I really like the front end though. The body perportions look good to me, but the top of the windshield is too low.

Overall, a very nice concept. Do you plan on refining it, or are you turning it in "as is"?

bbjones121

03-29-2011, 04:54 PM

Honestly, while I think it is a great design, the niche market for a vehicle such as that of the Carve is pretty saturated by other manufacturers. See X-Bow, SL-R, VStrom,Atom to name a few.

FFRWRX

03-29-2011, 06:47 PM

Gave her a different look, before I continue with all the details, any takers?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/Mod1newroof1.jpg

Yep, I would definitely take one! Not too crazy about the blunt nose (does seem to be more and more of a feature on Lambo's these days, but I still don't really like it). Hard to see exactly what is going on with the lower part of the doors with the color and reflections, but the side profile looks awesome.

Rick

Senger

03-29-2011, 07:03 PM

Honestly, while I think it is a great design, the niche market for a vehicle such as that of the Carve is pretty saturated by other manufacturers. See X-Bow, SL-R, VStrom,Atom to name a few.

The $15,000 target of the 818 undercuts the X-Bow by $40,000 and the Atom by $35,000, and therefore does not threaten to further saturate a market segment it will not even compete in. The Carve is only derivative of the spirit of their lightweight performance, but not derivative of their aesthetics (the exception being its functional overhead snorkel). The only V-Strom I could find is a motorcycle, and only SLR I've seen is the Mercedes SLR. Please forgive me if I've overlooked the models you are referring to. Thanks for your kind words.

This isn't near finished, and was posted to elicit constructive feedback. Thanks for your input guys!

@David Hodgkins- very valid concern regarding water entry. Perhaps some lightweight plexi or a reshaping of the rockers will amend that. I will also adjust the windshield.

@Reload- great to know you are participating! I'm guessing you will set the technical benchmark for us all considering the work you did for Darpa. Again, your project was very impressive!

@Oppenheimer- You're right, and that's the second time I heard the dune buggy reference. It will be noted. The ground clearance could be reduced and front and rear bumpers could use some reshaping to avoid that similarity. And a complete door opening would not make sense, considering the frame cuts through what would traditionally be a wide open pass-through. Hence, the smaller "doorlets" in the Carve. Below shows circled the area of intrusion:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5142/5572887736_a8d7e8f4cf_z.jpg

BrandonDrums

03-29-2011, 07:57 PM

Gave her a different look, before I continue with all the details, any takers?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/Mod1newroof1.jpg

I love this. I do think the nose profile might be too blunt and it might make sense to find a common OEM headlight and OEM brake light that's on a popular car to save costs. I'm pretty sure FFR will not be equipped to incorporate so much carbon fiber either into the design but it might not be hard to make panels 2 tone.

The targa is a bit long on this. The previous iteration without the fastback would make a targa smaller and more stowable.

I love how the triangle louver is for mounting the body, that's an elegant solution. That is an awesome idea to un-kit car the kit car by hiding some unsighly bolts that will have to be there to hold stuff on.

The multi-piece door panel will be fairly complex to fabricate unless I'm imagining your concept wrong from the picture. FFR hand-lays the fiberglass for all their body-parts and only uses a machine to trim the edges (I could be wrong but I saw it in their factory tour video on Youtube). Then, they glue the individual pieces together which creates seams that have to be sanded out by the customer. The more angles you have to work with, the more difficult it is to sand these seams down without messing up the body permanently not to mention the added man-hours required to hand-lay the fiberglass and glue the sections together. You have a fairly build-able design but those extra shapes worry me a bit.

The back window on the previous iteration of this design is probably a better fit. I LOVE this rear-glass incorporation much more but having only one piece of curved glass will save tremendous cost. If the rear is just a flat vertical piece it would allow for generic auto plexi-glass to be used and trimmed at FFR's shop rather than sourced from a custom fabricator. The flat glass also would create a lovely low-pressure zone that can help with Intercooler venting. The glass you have here can probably be flat glass too though and would allow the engine to be visible from the back which is sweeet.

Lastly, I remember my bud's '65 roadster body being a bit challenging to fit on perfectly straight. It's not very noticeable because I believe the FFR guys made the door seams pretty simple so even if things were a bit off you could match things up. I hate to bring up the Hennesy Venom but the way the vent louver behind the front wheels nearly hides the door hinge might make it easier to build this in the end. Think of it as crown molding hiding inperfections in a dry-wall job. The GTM has that same thing, I bet it's for the same reason.

I'm no visual artist so I apologize my feedback was mostly about the engineering stuffs. I know this is an open competition, but being that the Judges are chosen I'm sure they have some interest in choosing a design that is simple enough to fabricate in addition to being simple to build for their customers.

This is very very close though, awesome work!

BrandonDrums

03-29-2011, 08:06 PM

You know what, the more I stare at it the more I like it. Man, I should have just said "yeah"

PhyrraM

03-29-2011, 08:13 PM

I love the Carve. I, personally, don't mind the Dune Buggy comparison one bit. The original Manx has seen a lot of ground basically unchanged in principal for 30 years. A new design with the same ideals/goals could be good. I agree the Carve could use a bit of reshaping, but I like the doorlets. Just reshape a bit to make the water/rocks go elsewhere. Lower the back end, as other have suggested, to take advantage of the low Subaru motor/transmission setup. (550/914/Boxer/Cayman/etc.)

I really do like most of the other designs, they are just not my preference. I'm hoping the current trend toward "mini-supercars" takes a turn the other direction as more submissions come to light.

BrandonDrums

03-29-2011, 08:17 PM

olpro

03-29-2011, 08:35 PM

The Meyers Manx is an elegantly simple concept. There is basically one major body unit plus a few minor body parts. The donor is extensively utilized and the design has stood up for several decades now. I don't think the "Carve" indicates a real understanding of that remarkable concept. It would be a nightmare to produce. What is the point if it isn't easy to make?

On another issue, what happened to the judging panel we were promised would be announced?
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/allanflowers/manxkit.jpg

BrandonDrums

03-29-2011, 09:39 PM

The Carve is an awesome car but I think for all the performance and cost goals it could meet, the fact that it's an exo-car will limit it's adoption rate.

I think it fits the initial design target for this car but it's not a mass-seller. The mini-supercar idea although not original will probably appeal to a wider audience unfortunately.

Rotr8's design is probably a bit ambitious for a kit but I have a strong feeling that something like that selling for 15-18 grand will probably sell more than the Carve at just under 10 grand.

I know that's not the goal behind this kit but money is cheap compared to the amount of time and struggle it takes for a consumer to build an entire car. People want to build something that's truly special. Designs like 05xtsy's, xabier's and rotr8's have a much broader appeal than an atom, caterham 7, xbow etc. Even if an Atom cost 15 grand, I believe many of us would use that money for a kit that looks like the 3 designers we've been raving about on this thread.

That's just my opinion but I've only seen one lotus 7 type-car in person ever ever. I've never seen an atom on the road, I've never seen a KTM x-bow anywhere in person yet I see Ferrari's and Lambos, Porsche's, Aston's, Maserati's, BMW M5's, Lotus Elise's and Exige's and GTR's etc. etc. quite frequently. I already see someone that lives near me with the new Ferrari 458 every few weeks driving around and I just live in Raleigh, NC. Even when I go to VIR for track-day events, I fail to ever see any exo cars present but everything else imaginable seems to make it out including basically all the cars FFR makes.

You'd think if people were just after performance they'd spring for the Atom over a 250k Ferrari but they just don't. An exo car like the Atom seems to be a tertiary purchase for super-rich folks who already own a Porsche and a daily driver. Either that or they just don't get bought period.

Senger

03-29-2011, 10:25 PM

That's just my opinion but I've only seen one lotus 7 type-car in person ever ever. I've never seen an atom on the road, I've never seen a KTM x-bow anywhere in person yet I see Ferrari's and Lambos, Porsche's, Aston's, Maserati's, BMW M5's, Lotus Elise's and Exige's and GTR's etc. etc. quite frequently. I already see someone that lives near me with the new Ferrari 458 every few weeks driving around and I just live in Raleigh, NC. Even when I go to VIR for track-day events, I fail to ever see any exo cars present but everything else imaginable seems to make it out including basically all the cars FFR makes.

You'd think if people were just after performance they'd spring for the Atom over a 250k Ferrari but they just don't. An exo car like the Atom seems to be a tertiary purchase for super-rich folks who already own a Porsche and a daily driver. Either that or they just don't get bought period.

These are all excellent points, BrandonDrums and olpro. There are build complexities in my concept which will be simplified for the next two themes. There are many pieces to this design which will require major quality control and more advanced assembly skill in it's current iteration.

And Brandon, while seeing is believing, there are probably several practical factors behind not having witnessed cars such as an Atom or X-Bow during commutes and track days alike. Factors like a strong dealer network, and brand equity and heritage (FFR MK4 and Type 65 have plenty of historical racing-inspired heritage), neither of which neither KTM nor Ariel offer in their vehicles.

bbjones121

03-29-2011, 10:27 PM

How in the world did I miss these? Those are awesome! Talk about exotic to all the lookers that you pass.

Wow Rotr8, in the straightest possible sense, you are giving me a trouser crises about now.

I actually don't have any criticism about your designs, the only thing I would note is that with these headlights:

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/car1_frontQ2.jpg

It almost starts hitting on a little of the McLaren F1 front end look. Not that that's a bad thing because it looks amazing, but since all of your other designs look incredible they should be incredible in their own right.

And this right here does just that:

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/car1_frontQ.jpg

That's just incredible, well done that man.

Also, are they ADV.1 wheels?

PhyrraM

03-29-2011, 10:28 PM

bbjones121

03-29-2011, 10:34 PM

I agree, I posted something similar a little while ago in effort to make sure there were scoops, but got in trouble for trying to state how the design should be. I think it would be extremely crippling to the WRX power plant to not incorporate an intercooler. To have to custom make something for an intercooler on this kit after the fact would be, for lack of a more sensitive term, idiotic.

Just a thought:

The WRX engine in stock form uses a top-mount intercooler that sits, as the name implies, directly on top of the engine. The hood scoop in the WRX is functional; it forces air through the intercooler. I would like to see more designs that incorporate some form of forced air setup on the decklid/engine cover - in all likelihood this car will need/want it.

On the topic of scoops, it probably makes sense to have side scoops feed a radiator that sits between the engine and the passenger compartment.

Thoughts?

bbjones121

03-29-2011, 10:57 PM

Sorry, pics could be better to illustrate my point about how many other options people who are interested in a dune buggy/exo car have.
X-Bow:

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z302/landfalcon/ktm15.jpg

V-Strom $20k-30k? (uses subaru drivetrain):

http://www.six-river.com/images/6_000.jpg

Sonic 7:

http://www.madabout-kitcars.com/kitcar/images/1221256775-mevsonic7.jpg

TR-42 <$20k:

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/hipowernut/TR-42%20build/TR-42.jpg?t=1290983002

SL-Roadster/Razor(newer version) <$20k:

http://www.kitspeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/SLRazorArrival038.jpg

Deronda Type G:

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z302/landfalcon/d5.jpg

Don't get me wrong, I love the dune buggy/exo car/toy look, I have researched the SL-R for a long time and thought that is the direction I was going to go. Then I came to the realization that I should be looking to build a car that is not extremely limited on functionality. I would want to put time and energy into working on something that I could take my wife out for dinner in and impress people with. I was hoping that FFR would come up with something for $15k that would look like a super car, not a dune buggy/exo car/toy, but maybe that is just me.

As you can see, there are plenty of options out there for people interested in that look.

The $15,000 target of the 818 undercuts the X-Bow by $40,000 and the Atom by $35,000, and therefore does not threaten to further saturate a market segment it will not even compete in. The Carve is only derivative of the spirit of their lightweight performance, but not derivative of their aesthetics (the exception being its functional overhead snorkel). The only V-Strom I could find is a motorcycle, and only SLR I've seen is the Mercedes SLR. Please forgive me if I've overlooked the models you are referring to. Thanks for your kind words.

PhyrraM

03-29-2011, 10:59 PM

I agree, I posted something similar a little while ago in effort to make sure there were scoops, but got in trouble for trying to state how the design should be. I think it would be extremely crippling to the WRX power plant to not incorporate an intercooler. To have to custom make something for an intercooler on this kit after the fact would be, for lack of a more sensitive term, idiotic.

A clever design/designer can use the high pressure under the car and the low pressure on/near the rear deck to passively move a surprisingly large volume of air over the intercooler. No scoop needed. Many of the currently posted designs can/could incorporate such a system very easily and likely cheaply.

05xtsy

03-29-2011, 11:10 PM

It has been said over and over again, this is more about the styling/look of the design, not the design itself. Dave himself has said that they may or may not make changes based on certain features. It is sort of sad though, because If we had all the parameters to design around already, it would 1. make it more challenging, and 2. We would have a more accurate representation of what to expect. I'm and industrial designer, and part of the reason I REALLY like the way the contest is so far is that, it is like having a huge client that is saying "just go crazy, and make us something"..... whiiich doesn't really happen.

bbjones121

03-29-2011, 11:14 PM

That is true, just as long as it is designed by FFR that way.

A clever design/designer can use the high pressure under the car and the low pressure on/near the rear deck to passively move a surprisingly large volume of air over the intercooler. No scoop needed. Many of the currently posted designs can/could incorporate such a system very easily and likely cheaply.

BrandonDrums

03-29-2011, 11:19 PM

Much of the reason people purchase the Porsche, Ferrari, Lotus, etc. is the image they provide (whether they admit it or not). Most are not necessarily bought on outright performance. Also, those are all "complete" cars. The Atom, Caterhams, and Xbows do not compete with them. They do not go after the same market. Neither will FFR. When talking about those brands, adding this 818 project to the sentence is like comparing apples to eggs, or roofing.

The Exo-cars are bought by folks who really want performance above all, or (as mentioned) folks who have a Porsche (or other) and are looking for "more". Very few Ferrari buyers will be considering the 818, they will move straight to the KTM X-bow or such.

This is why I feel the 818 could be the modern Dunebuggy (in spirit) if done right. The right price, and the right mantra for the times (performance and fun). The more I think about it, the less I think what it looks like will matter to sales. As long as it's not downright ugly or disproportioned, whatever it ends up looking like will become the new 'look to have'. Just like the Manx phenomenon of yore.

Well, you're right about people buying fancy cars because of the image they provide and with the part about people who buy exo cars are only concerned about performance.

What I'm saying is, there are hardily any buyers of exo cars. People build the '65 roadster because they are building something special that makes them feel like a rockstar. Same with the GTM, '65 Coupe, '33 coupe etc.

This car HAS to be cool, not just perform well. When you pour your heart and soul into creating something like a car, the outcome has to be special on multiple accounts. Otherwise you're looking to explain yourself over and over on why you spend 6 months building the worlds most unpractical and silly looking machine to go around some cones every few weekends assuming it's not raining and less than 100 miles away. I can't imagine a car I'd rather drive LESS than a dune buggy.

If this car performs well exo guys will buy it (that's like 5 people) if it looks good and performs well, then I guess that brings in some more folks....

bbjones121

03-29-2011, 11:34 PM

PhyrraM

03-29-2011, 11:50 PM

Hmmm, never gave it any thought. I wonder how well the EXO cars are selling? Sure are a lot of companies cropping up making them if nobody is buying them

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating an EXOcar. I'm saying that this car, if build to the stated price and performance goals, will sell well regardless of how it looks. It has the distinct opportunity to create a new market segment and define what 'cool' looks like. That's how and why I reference the Dune Buggy. If the eventual 818 pays homage to that, I'm OK with it. If it doesn't, I'm OK too. It's spiritual kind of connection.

As any designer for a product to be eventually sold will tell you, "Cool" usually develops when something works/performs/beats competition first. Most things that just "look good" without the backup (or fail under scutiny) and end up losing their 'coolness' real fast. Think iPhone for a success story. It only looks cool because it works and was a clear advantage to competitors. It's still riding that 'cool wave' even though most professional reviewers feel that Android phones have caught up. On that thought, even Android phones are now becoming 'cool' (Thanks to their performance in the market?) Think Hyundai Genesis Coupe for a (minor) failure. It was way cooler before it was released and reviewed. Logitech peripherals are cool, while Best Buy branded Insignia stuff is decidedly uncool, even though the actual looks are basically the same (to most folks). Styling isn't all there is, and can be overcome.

With that said...let's make it look killer! (Just not supercar-ish :p)

bbjones121

03-30-2011, 01:37 AM

Hmmm, never gave it any thought. I wonder how well the EXO cars are selling? Sure are a lot of companies cropping up making them if nobody is buying them

I don't get the feeling that you understand where most of the people that are interested in the exo cars are coming from. They are very low volume cars. They are built by enthusiast who want something a particular way. That has led to many different people trying to develop them the way that they like. If you want to get a better understanding of this, exocars.net is a good place to start. Keep those cars to those types of people, the V-strom is already available for the subaru drivetrain. This FFR 818 vehicle is an chance to do something unique and different. If you don't go with the awe of a supercar/exotic, then FFR will risk it looking like a body kit on a S2000, miata, MR2, celica, and any other normal car. It would really suck if this opportunity was blown. Maybe an exotic look would be better to describe what I am hoping for rather than a supercar. I think the term "supercar" usually refers to 200+mph capable cars.

As any designer for a product to be eventually sold will tell you, "Cool" usually develops when something works/performs/beats competition first. Most things that just "look good" without the backup (or fail under scutiny) and end up losing their 'coolness' real fast.

I agree with the principle of this, but this comment makes it sound as though you feel the 818 will only "look good" and not have the performance to back it up? I think that the 818 should have some serious performance numbers (if you learn to drive it of course). So it should be fitted with a body that would be appropriate and I think it should have some exotic styling to it. I personally would want to show it in a car show and impress even the exotic sports car owners. There will be a few people that come up and find out it is only a kit car and walk away trying to unjustify their initial amazement, but that would not be what the majority of people seeing it would think.

Styling isn't all there is, and can be overcome.
I believe that to be true for high volume, daily visible items, but I don't think that is true for a car that people you drive past will catch a view of for only a couple seconds. I think styling would be almost everything with this. Most people will not ever remember to look online and try to find performance or reviews about the vehicle they just saw. So if the performance is lacking(which it shouldn't be) I would guess most people that witness you driving would never even know.

bbjones121

03-30-2011, 01:58 AM

If you pull up next to a viper srt10, porsche, corvette zr1, ferrari, austin martin, maseratti, or Lamborghini in one of these cars:

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/Rotr8/car1_frontQ2.jpg

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k550/NXXN/FRONT_F2copy.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/FFRNEW.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/FFRsecond1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/05xtsy/Mod1newroof1.jpg

You have a real solid chance of Johnny looking out of the car window across the intersection and telling his mommy that he wants your car instead of the $100k+ car. Or even your average Joe rolling down his window to compliment your car instead of the other more expensive ride. Most people looking at your two cars sitting there would be equally impressed with your car if not more.

Now I am just spitballing here, but I would imagine there would be a far smaller percentage of the population that would compliment you in the same situation if you were sitting there in this:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5227/5571703356_d3a6eff0ee_z.jpg

If I am going to spend months working on this thing perfecting every little bit of it, probably working on a custom leather stitched dash and doors, etc., I opt for the first type of impression, not the latter.

PhyrraM

03-30-2011, 02:34 AM

Cliffs Notes: Conversation for conversations sake. All the designs are good, and nothing I say or debate is going to kill the 818 or make it flop. I just like the discussion, don't read anymore into it than that please. ;)

I don't get the feeling that you understand where most of the people that are interested in the exo cars are coming from.
Probably. I like EXO cars, but only in the respect that I could do it myself if I could clear my plate long enough. I would NEVER buy one, at least not for the quoted prices ($20-$80K).

They are very low volume cars.
Again, possibly true. I never thought about it or looked up numbers.

They are built by enthusiast who want something a particular way. That has led to many different people trying to develop them the way that they like. If you want to get a better understanding of this, exocars.net is a good place to start.

I've visited the site, but could never get hooked. I do frequent LocostUSA.com which seems to have like minded members.

Keep those cars to those types of people,

And what if 'those' people are also here and interested in 'this' type of vehicle? I put the 'this' in quotes because the type is not yet defined and FFR is actively seeking out guidance.

the V-strom is already available for the subaru drivetrain.

Yup.

This FFR 818 vehicle is an chance to do something unique and different.

Yup. However, ever consider that maybe a higher volume, more affordable EXO-car IS something different?

If you don't go with the awe of a supercar/exotic, then FFR will risk it looking like a body kit on a S2000, miata, MR2, celica, and any other normal car. It would really suck if this opportunity was blown.

Ah, this is where I'm not expressing myself. You also risk it looking like a body kit with exotic car styling. You risk worse....you risk it looking like a Fiberfab Avenger.

Did you ever notice that the last Celica had the same lines as the Lamboghini Diablo? The same side window dip, the same hood contours? Yet no one mistook the two. It's likely that very few even noticed the similarity. Why? Purpose and history. No other reason. The Toyota cannot be compared without that 'extra' intangible. And it wasn't the performance difference. It was the 'Lamborghini' factor. The 818 will not have that 'something'. That is why I *believe* it cannot look like a mini-supercar.

Maybe an exotic look would be better to describe what I am hoping for rather than a supercar. I think the term "supercar" usually refers to 200+mph capable cars.

Semantics.

I agree with the principle of this, but this comment makes it sound as though you feel the 818 will only "look good" and not have the performance to back it up?

Actually, the opposite. I know it will have the performance numbers. And because of that people will love the way it looks, regardless of how 'attractive' it is. It's performance, price, engineering will make it cool and desired. Which, in-turn, will make it the standard in the looks department. It's when viewed in this light I say "I don't think it will matter how it looks". Folks will love it, think it's beautiful, and not fully realize why. That's how these fads and such develop.

I think that the 818 should have some serious performance numbers (if you learn to drive it of course).

It will. I don't see how it can't if the goals are met.

So it should be fitted with a body that would be appropriate and I think it should have some exotic styling to it.

Fair enough. And I agree.

I personally would want to show it in a car show and impress even the exotic sports car owners. There will be a few people that come up and find out it is only a kit car and walk away trying to unjustify their initial amazement, but that would not be what the majority of people seeing it would think.

Agree totally! However, I think something unique and LESS super car-ish would better serve those means. I just think that most attempts at a exotic car type of styling (on a 95" wheelbase even) will be met with instant disbelief. Especially considering the $10K budget will not leave much room for those all important, belief dispelling, finishing touches. I believe that something less standardized, less recognizable, will be better able to meet the dual goals of budget and show-stopper. I think folks will be more "What IS that?" than "Oh, that's not a ________".

PhyrraM

03-30-2011, 02:38 AM

If you pull up next to a viper srt10, porsche, corvette zr1, ferrari, austin martin, maseratti, or Lamborghini in one of these cars:

You have a real solid chance of Johnny looking out of the car window across the intersection and telling his mommy that he wants your car instead of the $100k+ car. Or even your average Joe rolling down his window to compliment your car instead of the other more expensive ride. Most people looking at your two cars sitting there would be equally impressed with your car if not more.

Fair enough. I've never considered how the 'other guys' might feel about my car. I guess I was just thinking about how I would feel about it.:p

FFRWRX

03-30-2011, 06:19 AM

This car HAS to be cool, not just perform well. When you pour your heart and soul into creating something like a car, the outcome has to be special on multiple accounts. Otherwise you're looking to explain yourself over and over on why you spend 6 months building the worlds most unpractical and silly looking machine to go around some cones every few weekends assuming it's not raining and less than 100 miles away. I can't imagine a car I'd rather drive LESS than a dune buggy.

Well put. Of course everyone has an opinion, and mine happens to agree with this. The way I see it so far is that there are 2 schools of designs showing up. The first I'll call "conservative"; this is not to say boring in any way, but it is more along the lines of the Ferrari/Lotus styling. The second I'll call "futuristic"; this is the batmobile, concept car, really funky design (don't know how else to put it). Let's say that an equal number of people like both. So which one should get produced? The conservative one, and here's why (this is only my opinion of course, you will have your own).

Those that really like the futuristic styling would be disappointed in the conservative design if it won, but I think most of them would still build one. Those that like the conservative styling would be disappointed if a futuristic design won, and a lot of them wouldn't build one; it would be so far out of what they would be comfortable owning/showing/driving. Let's face it, we all drive "conservative" cars now, so it is not a stretch to build another one that would be a huge step up in design from what most of us have. If something is too far out there, styling wise, I would not be comfortable with it. My guess is that FFR will see it this way. Why take a chance with a really wild design that may or may not be successful, when you can be pretty sure that a more mainstream design will sell to more people.

And that's the way it is. Good night and good news.

Rick

Jeff Collins

03-30-2011, 06:21 AM

I like the red roadster with 5 in the grill

Monkey Tricycle Flip

03-30-2011, 07:54 AM

I'll just leave these here for inspiration:

http://i.imgur.com/nKBCy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Av558.jpg

I don't think Porsche has ever made a more beautiful car than the 918 (918!?)

Let's just have FFR make a knock-off of the 918 and all call it a day!

/thread closed... ;)

keys2heaven

03-30-2011, 08:23 AM

This is why I feel the 818 could be the modern Dunebuggy (in spirit) if done right. The right price, and the right mantra for the times (performance and fun). The more I think about it, the less I think what it looks like will matter to sales. As long as it's not downright ugly or disproportioned, whatever it ends up looking like will become the new 'look to have'. Just like the Manx phenomenon of yore.

I'm hoping that this will be more of a roadster design. I know I won't be driving a dune buggy and my wife certainly won't be riding in one. If this becomes the design, I'll save up for a Mk 4.

Franze

03-30-2011, 08:38 AM

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5143/5570798945_1ec3357387_z.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5109/5571386378_6d88b40285_b.jpg

here is some further development on my factory five racer which do you prefer?

Also is an open wheeler allowed in this comp?

crobin4

03-30-2011, 08:56 AM

I'm hoping that this will be more of a roadster design. I know I won't be driving a dune buggy and my wife certainly won't be riding in one. If this becomes the design, I'll save up for a Mk 4.

+1 Actually, the 65 coupe or GTM would get my pennies.

Monkey Tricycle Flip

03-30-2011, 09:20 AM

I'm hoping that this will be more of a roadster design. I know I won't be driving a dune buggy and my wife certainly won't be riding in one. If this becomes the design, I'll save up for a Mk 4.
+2, though I'll be spending my $ on a Hurricane rather than an FFR.

keys2heaven

03-30-2011, 09:34 AM

Two questions:

1. How come we do not have a weekly winner yet?
2. Noticed that Dave S. has been eerily quiet on the boards. Hope all is well. Anyone know?

bbjones121

03-30-2011, 09:40 AM

Something this small, I would definitely want a removeable top. I am 5' 10" 150lbs and I can tell you that the lotus elise is much more comfortable than a crammed exige. Just test drive the two sometime. It is something about not having the freedom to expand the enclosure.

Dave Smith

03-30-2011, 09:45 AM

Guys! I have ben out for more than a bit with family matters. I just spent an hour reading PM's and responding and trying to catch up. I went thru this post and WOW! awesome work. I also went over to the Grassroots Motorsports site and there are some killer dsesigns there as well. I'll try and get plugged back in here. Sorry for the silence.

bbjones121

03-30-2011, 10:12 AM

At the end of the day, I hope FFR will have all of the following in there product line:
-Classic roadster
-Hot Rod
-Classic coupe
-Exotic Supercar
-and the newcomer, an Exotic Roadster

PhyrraM, I feel like you think the best TV on the rack is the one that costs the most?
I am a person that looks to spend as little as possible to have the best. Just because this car is low cost, doesn't mean it has to look it's price. I plan on putting more than just the budget build options into this car.

No matter how much time you put into an exo car, you can not make it look any more expensive or more impressive.

PhyrraM

03-30-2011, 10:36 AM

PhyrraM, I feel like you think the best TV on the rack is the one that costs the most?
I am a person that looks to spend as little as possible to have the best. Just because this car is low cost, doesn't mean it has to look it's price. I plan on putting more than just the budget build options into this car.

Nope. I feel the same as you. You look at the specs and choose your point on the price curve. We all know that the most expensive is rarely the best performer, in any product -not just cars.

The part I must be failing to convey is:
1. The 818 will be a raging success if it meets it's stated price, weight and performance goals. It will not matter what it looks like. If it looks good, so much the better. I DO hope it looks good.

2. I feel that this 'initial' impression folks want to talk about would be more damaged by a mini-supercar. A small exotic car/roadster will NEVER impress a Ferrari/Porsche guy, unless he is FIRST a car guy. Most are not. The GTM is not in the same league as those other cars, not because of performance-but because of the snob factor. Car guys love the GTM, Ferarri/Porsche/Aston guys do not.

3. I am not advocating a EXO-car, Dunebuggy, or anything else in particular. I am only saying that a exotic car is VERY hard to do convincingly, especially on this budget. In that regard, hope to see more 'out of the box' and orginal design themes. Concepts that cannot be instantly disregarded as 'not a Ferrari/Porsche/etc."

4. If FFR CAN do a exotic car good enough to pass muster, then I will be all for it. I'm just very sceptical. The Manx was successful because there was no comparision, the Exotic kit cars of the same time were not BECAUSE OF the comparisions.

Either way, apologies for drawing this out. Not my intention. I just really enjoy the debate. It usually enriches us all.

FFRWRX

03-30-2011, 10:56 AM

The part I must be failing to convey is:
1. It will not matter what it looks like.

I do not agree with this at all and would be willing to bet that FFR cares very much what it looks like. Why else would they be having a contest if looks don't matter? Isn't the constest all about looks? The drivetrain is pretty much determined already.

But then again, time will tell!

Oppenheimer

03-30-2011, 11:14 AM

I'm pretty sure FFR will not be equipped to incorporate so much carbon fiber either into the design but it might not be hard to make panels 2 tone.

Thinking about this, I bet it would be doable for FFR to make fiberglass panels that incorporate a carbon sheet as the top layer, or even just something that looked like CF, to create CF looking panels. Not something I'd like to see for a large panel, like a whole hood or something, but as accents, etc, I think this could look good.

PhyrraM

03-30-2011, 11:18 AM

I do not agree with this at all and would be willing to bet that FFR cares very much what it looks like. Why else would they be having a contest if looks don't matter? Isn't the constest all about looks? The drivetrain is pretty much determined already.

Never said we shouldn't care. Never said I don't care. Never said FFR shouldn't care.

I only said that the 818 is in the unique position to make a 'different' design become a new standard.

For example, many hated the new BMW design language when it first came out on the early '00s, but now (as well as then) BMWs are still considered desirable and 'cool'. The merits of the car determined how successful the styling was.

Many considered the new Jaguar styling was doomed to failure. Too 'new' looking for a Jaguar. "Jags are supposed to be traditional". However they are widely accepted as great looking cars, at least partially because the cars themselves are now competitive in and at, or near, the top of thier class.

The 300M was heralded as a 'Rolls' knockoff when it first was released. Then folks started driving them and found the car had it's own merits. Now it looks like a 300M.

Styling IS important. But the 818 will be a great car even if it doesn't look like a scale down 200MPH hypercar. I think it will be greater car if it looks like an 818.

Keep the designs flowing, the more the merrier.