John's EZ36R H6 818R Build

[lance corsi]

High banked turns should not be a problem.

[Hobby Racer]

Hobby: Out of curiosity. What tires are you running? 1.5g is a strong number. Were you on the ragged edge?

That was on Dunlop Direzza ZII Star Spec. An extreme performance street tire, not even a D.O.T. slick! Secret is that turn 6 at Watkins Glen has 10 degrees of banking ;)
I'll have to look through the data and find a flat corner to get a true lateral G number for comparison.


High banked turns should not be a problem.
Tested on a 10 degree banked corner so far.

[Mitch Wright]

Glad to hear of the oil pick up success, FUN. I would guess on a slick you will see 1.6-1.7+ in the Carousel.
Impressive numbers on the Dunlaps, those are 200tw aren't they? On BFG R1 DOT slicks here at NCM at long sweeping T5, T15 and 16 and the sink hole we would see 1.4-1.6 with 2* banking or less.

[Hobby Racer]

Glad to hear of the oil pick up success, FUN. I would guess on a slick you will see 1.6-1.7+ in the Carousel.
Impressive numbers on the Dunlaps, those are 200tw aren't they? On BFG R1 DOT slicks here at NCM at long sweeping T5, T15 and 16 and the sink hole we would see 1.4-1.6 with 2* banking or less.

Yes, they are 200tw, but very grippy. I have a set of Hoosier A7's mounted on custom sized Team Dynamics Pro Race 1.2 wheels that I have not tried yet.

[Sgt.Gator]

What have you done for block/head/venting/PCV/Catch Can setup?

[Hobby Racer]

What have you done for block/head/venting/PCV/Catch Can setup?

Nothing special. The EZ36 only has a vent and PCV on one cylinder bank, the drivers side. I run an open crank case with the OEM vent and PCV running into a 1 qt. catch can that is open to atmosphere via a foam breather. I get about a 1-2 tablespoons of oil in it during a 30 min track session. I only empty the can after an entire weekend of driving.

[Sgt.Gator]

Nothing special. The EZ36 only has a vent and PCV on one cylinder bank, the drivers side. I run an open crank case with the OEM vent and PCV running into a 1 qt. catch can that is open to atmosphere via a foam breather. I get about a 1-2 tablespoons of oil in it during a 30 min track session. I only empty the can after an entire weekend of driving.

That's remarkable! Must be the difference between an NA engine and a turbo boosted engine blowby.
You may find this NA EZ36 Dyno of interest. Usually they are always a turbo or supercharged EZ 30-36, but this one in NA. By our iWire vendor, iWire's 6 Cylinder Subaru Tune Day with Dyno Pulls:
https://youtu.be/WCdODjeF89w

Another video on the car/swap here:
https://youtu.be/5IXlKyrXrTs

[Hobby Racer]

Made the same power I made on the dyno! 220 rwhp. The ez36 is a nice engine, it doesn't get much love though :rolleyes:

[Frank818]

The 3.6 was just a bit more than WRX? I was expecting close to 300hp, so at least 250whp.

[Hobby Racer]

The 3.6 was just a bit more than WRX? I was expecting close to 300hp, so at least 250whp.

A 2007 WRX was only 224 hp at the crank, so about 190 whp. The 3.6 is rated at 254 hp at the crank and about 220 whp. That's 30 more hp than the turbo EJ255 engines.

And that's naturally aspirated on 87 octane, not bad I think.

[Frank818]

You're totally right, I think I mixed the numbers and whp vs hp thing.

So 254hp would have been what the dealer said when you bought it new. Yeah 30 more makes a difference!

[Hobby Racer]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=134820&d=1599528814

One thing that bothered me on my first track day with the new 6 speed compared to my old 5 speed was how badly it would shift from 4th to 5th and back into 4th. I would have a hard time getting it to go into 5th and when down shifting I would sometimes end up in 6th. Not an ideal situation on a race track. I did some investigating at the track and determined there was some binding in the for /aft bell crank (the top one) I fabricated that was making shifting hit or miss. Since I was unable to fabricate a fix at the track, I just lived with it until I could get home to my shop.

After tearing the previous shift mechanism apart I found wear marks from interference of the top bell crank with the support structure. This would need to be addressed. Instead of making a simple standoff, I redesigned the whole thing to be smaller, lighter and more rigid, with a better geometry for the shift forces.

Here is the old setup.

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The old setup connected both the forward and backward motion with the twisting motion of the shift shaft at the tip of the lever arm that mounts to the shift rail. In the new design I separated them back to what Mechie had done on the original bell crank design. I also enlarged the top bell crank to add rigidity and used a larger bearing to more evenly distribute the load. Finally I angled the top bell crank to put the forward and backward forces directly in-line with the shift shaft.

Here is the new setup.

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Now its back to Watkins Glen in two weeks for more testing and hopefully some quicker lap times ;)

[Rob T]

I see the reverse lockout mechanism, also. My 4th-5th shift was horrible until I got that sorted. The shifter drifted out past 5th to neverland....

I am envious of your machining and design skills. Awesome....

[Hobby Racer]

I see the reverse lockout mechanism, also. My 4th-5th shift was horrible until I got that sorted. The shifter drifted out past 5th to neverland....

I am envious of your machining and design skills. Awesome....

Thx Rob. The new to me milling machine is a ton of fun. Makes you want to fabricate things just to use it :D

[aquillen]

Thx Rob. The new to me milling machine is a ton of fun. Make you want to fabricate things just to use it :D

I'm in with that. Your shifter setup is top drawer.

[Frank818]

Awesome bell crank pieces! I wish I'd do the same one day!

[Hobby Racer]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138121&d=1605995838

[DSR-3]

Just 1?

[Hobby Racer]

Just 1?

Just one. Its a Rotrex C38-91 centrifugal supercharger (not a turbocharger). Its rated to support between 350 - 720 hp. I am only shooting for ~400 at the crank. My calculations put me in the sweet spot of the compressor map at about 67k rpm for the compressor wheel, and that's with the largest pulley they make! I can step down the pulley size to make much more power in the future if needed.

I'm in the process of deciding what size/shape inter-cooler to use and just how much bigger my fuel injectors will need to be. One thing I am sure of is that I will need a complete rebuild of the engine first to add a completely new forged rotating assembly to handle the increase in power. The EZ36 weak links are the crank, rods, and pistons in that order. Outfrontmotorsports reports they break stock cranks at only 8-10 lbs of boost.

[Hobby Racer]

To make any real power over stock in an EZ36 engine you need to strengthen the bottom end. That means a stronger crank shaft, stronger rods and stronger pistons. The rub is that there are no aftermarket parts for the EZ36 available. However you can de-stroke an EZ36 using a modified crank shaft from an older Subaru EZ30 flat 6 engine. This necessitates also using custom forged straight rods. Not asymmetric ones like the stock one's are. And finally custom forged pistons.

When your all done you end up with a 3.2 liter higher revving, much stronger engine. This setup was pioneered by Outfrontmotorsports I think. At least they are the only ones I've seen talking about it. They offer the required parts to pull this off.

Once the engine itself is built up to handle more power it becomes a complex game of tetris, fitting in all the needed components into an already tightly cramped engine bay. But, I think I have it all worked out. I have been using wooden and cardboard cutouts to see if I can get everything to fit and get sufficient cooling.

[Jetfuel]

Racer, can we count on you to document this engine build???

Jet

[Hobby Racer]

Racer, can we count on you to document this engine build???

Jet

Yes, figured I've blazed a few trails already, might as well do a few more ;)

This car is going to be so fun!

[Sgt.Gator]

Wow. The point of going H6 for me would be to eliminate the turbo and intercooler!
This should be interesting!

[Hobby Racer]

Wow. The point of going H6 for me would be to eliminate the turbo and intercooler!
This should be interesting!

Actually its a supercharger. I like the linear power and instant throttle response compared to a turbo, especially coming out of the corners.

The NA motor is great and has plenty of oomph for most tracks, but my home track of Watkins Glen is long and fast. I hit 140 mph on the back straight and those dam Porsche GT3's are still climbing up my back side! I can hang with them in the brake zones and corners but not on the straights.

Time for more power :p

[Sgt.Gator]

How is it going to mount? On the LGT forum there have been a few Raptor Superchargers installed in Legacys, but they hang so far off the side I was under the impression there would not be room in an 818.
Are you going to intercool it?
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[Hobby Racer]

Thought I'd get a jump on things before Turkey day. I was able to get the engine and transmission out as one unit without removing the rear suspension or half shafts!

I will be cutting out those angled bars and making them removable as many others have done to make this job easier in the future. I want to be able to remove/install the engine and transmission fully dressed, including the exhaust by just lowering everything into place.

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[Hobby Racer]

How is it going to mount?
Are you going to intercool it?


I'm going to mount it where the blue circle is, just to the left of where the power steering normally goes. Now that I'm looking at the engine out, I might try mounting it were the red circle is. Looks like there might be just enough room and there is a mounting bracket already available since that's where the AC compressor normally goes. Only problem with that spot is that the air inlet would need to be routed under the plastic intake manifold runners where on the left side its wide open.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138258&d=1606255196


The intercooler will be mounted above the transmission where I previously had my transmission cooler. It will be cooled by air ducted in from both side vents running through twin 4" hoses connected to a custom plenum to force all the air through the core.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138259&d=1606255358

[DSR-3]

What a fun project!
Maybe consider pulling all of it off and positioning the blower where you want, then the alternator wherever it fits.

[aquillen]

These cars don't need all that much alternator. I stuck in a Geo-Metro/Honda unit that is probably 2/3 the size. Made different mounts of course. But would give you a lot more room to play. Would need to review the ECU to alternator control circuits though - could run into a problem there.Then again I need to re-read your thread above on ECU as I'm expecting you can't use the OEM = put whatever you want for alternator. Car is going to be a total blast with the blower in there. Envy envy envy.

[Sgt.Gator]

I hadn't thought of the LGTs requiring power steering and keeping their AC units, my bad. Yes, I'm sure you can find a space to fit.
However as you mentioned the 36 is not a good candidate for more than 7psi of boost unless you rebuild it pretty dramatically. John at Outfront says the crank breaks at 8psi, so now you need a custom crank too. You may be better served building an EZ30 and selling the 36. The parts you need for built EZ30 are on the shelf and the work is well documented.
I think the 36 is a great motor for an NA 818, but the 30 is better for Turbo/Supercharging.

[Hobby Racer]

I hadn't thought of the LGTs requiring power steering and keeping their AC units, my bad. Yes, I'm sure you can find a space to fit.
However as you mentioned the 36 is not a good candidate for more than 7psi of boost unless you rebuild it pretty dramatically. John at Outfront says the crank breaks at 8psi, so now you need a custom crank too. You may be better served building an EZ30 and selling the 36. The parts you need for built EZ30 are on the shelf and the work is well documented.
I think the 36 is a great motor for an NA 818, but the 30 is better for Turbo/Supercharging.

I thought about that hard and long. But if you build an EZ30 you still need better rods and pistons to add boost. So the only additional cost to build the EZ36 is the stronger crank. Since you can use a modified EZ30 crank its really not that much more expense, plus the EZ36 has these advantages over the EZ30.


Better internal cooling system
Better oiling system
More cubic inches (3.2 liter after destroking)
Better OEM parts availability since they just stopped making them in 2019. EZ30's have not been made since 2009



The only real advantage I can see in building an EZ30 is the variable lift system on the intake cams. But that also adds complexity to the valve train.

Besides, I really like a challenge :p

[Sgt.Gator]

I know one of the other criticisms of the 36 is the rod ratio, but if you destroke it that may fix that issue. Do you watch the German Subi Performance You Tube Channel? He's building an awesome EG33. I love his shop and channel but lately most of his videos are in German. For awhile he was doing about 50% of them in English.
Here he compares an EG33 to a EZ30:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oclD62V2lYw

Good Luck!

[Hobby Racer]

Yes I used to watch that channel a lot. But since they have been all in German lately I have not been watching. He likes the EG33 because its basically an EJ motor with two extra cylinders.

[Hobby Racer]

Supercharger arrived today! Started mocking up the location using wooden brackets. When I am pleased with the fit I will machine one out of 3/8" aluminum plate.

It looks like it sits high in the pictures but the unit sits below the level of the rear deck. The outlet to the compressor will turn 90 degrees and head back to the intercooler. I cut the diagonal support bars out to make it easier to test fit the engine / trans. I will design a nicer one piece triangular brace that bolts in for easy removal later. I am re-purposing the old power steering bracket as the base for the supercharger support. It now supports the alternator and the factory belt tensioner just like the OEM setup, win-win!

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[Hobby Racer]

In order to get the pulley alignment correct with the alternator and crank I had to mill 0.212" off the face of the power steering bracket. That also gave me a perfectly flat surface to mount the new supercharger bracket to.

I am thinking of welding the supercharger bracket to the power steering mount for added rigidity. I will also add some gussets to the back side to prevent flexing. I may mill out some of the material in the center just to make it look nicer.

I think I just like playing with the mill. :D

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[Sgt.Gator]

Does the supercharger belt go around the crank pulley ring that is for the alternator/power steering and share duty with the alternator, or is it on it's own around the A/C ring, or a mandrel off the front?

[Hobby Racer]

Does the supercharger belt go around the crank pulley ring that is for the alternator/power steering and share duty with the alternator, or is it on it's own around the A/C ring, or a mandrel off the front?

I put it together quick to show the belt path. The red arrow shows the belt direction. I set it up to use a shared 6 rib serpentine belt for everything, just like the OEM setup. The mounting bolts you see coming close to the belt path will be countersunk cap screws when completed, just like what I'm using to secure the supercharger. This setup gives me more that 180 degree of belt contact for the crank and supercharger and about 160 degrees contact for the alternator.


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138883&d=1607377341

[Mitch Wright]

Looks like one more countersunk bolt and you will be golden.

[lance corsi]

Does anyone make a roots style blower for these?

[Hobby Racer]

Does anyone make a roots style blower for these?

No one makes a roots style kit that I've been able to find, but you could certainly adapt a roots blower to fit. The biggest hurdle would be making a new manifold to bolt up to the blower since they usually sit between the cylinder banks. Hey, maybe Art Quillen can make you one up in carbon fiber. :o

[lance corsi]

I’ve already made mine, but thanks. I’m sure Art’s manifold would look better tho.
I once considered building my system like that, considering all the piping work involved in a turbo setup, it’d be easier. But I enjoy plumbing work. I like the way a nice set of headers looks. I enjoy hearing the sounds emitted from a turbo, blowoff valve, etc. personal preference.

[lance corsi]

With a blower, I’d think a dual exhaust would be a no-brainer.

[Frank818]

I love challenges! :) Can't wait for 1st engine run already! Go for it, Hobby!

[Hobby Racer]

Finished up the fabrication of the supercharger support brackets today.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139095&d=1607811773

I did however hit a snag. The first time I finished :rolleyes: It was beautiful and artistic. However, I neglected to test fit the part to the engine before finish welding everything up. This of course bit me in the butt. The diagonal support brace I welded in for extra strength hit one of the intake manifold runners and prevented the bracket from mating to the block properly.

You can see the original weld point circled in red. The second try circled in blue now clears the intake runner. At this point I was tired and not in a mood to mill out a pretty dual arm support, so I went with the simple yet function straight piece of aluminum.

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Once fitted to the engine everything lined up very nicely. The supercharger nestles down in the support brackets and is quite rigid.

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[Hobby Racer]

Just in time, my new engine internals arrived from Outfront Motorsports.


Custom forged pistons from CP-Carrillo
Custom forged H beam rods from Molnar
New and modified EZ30 crankshaft
12mm head studs by ARP



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Now I guess its time to tear this thing apart!

[Hobby Racer]

I thought I'd let you know all the different parts that are coming together for this build. It's a strange mix of different Subaru OEM parts from different motors and some custom aftermarket parts.

EZ36 (3.6L) + EZ30 crankshaft (3.0L) = EZ32 (3.2L)


EZ36 block bored out 0.25mm (92.25mm bore)
Custom CP-Carrillo pistons 9.7:1 CR (92.25mm)
Subaru OEM piston rings from an EJ205 (02-05 WRX)
Modified aftermarket rods for a Subaru EJ25 non-turbo engine (thinned on the big end)
Rod bearings that fit an EJ257 (04-07 STI)
EZ30 crankshaft machined so the EZ36 oil pump gear will fit on the nose



Wow, can you belief all the disparate parts that go into making this build work!

[Mitch Wright]

Sounds like fun to me.

[Sgt.Gator]

Is Outfront building this engine for you as a complete shortblock? We (Colonel Red Racing & Arcflash) do a lot of business with them, great folks. They have my trashed engine from the nut sticking in the cam now.

[Hobby Racer]

Is Outfront building this engine for you as a complete shortblock? We (Colonel Red Racing & Arcflash) do a lot of business with them, great folks. They have my trashed engine from the nut sticking in the cam now.

No, I'm building it myself. I just sourced the parts from them.

[Hobby Racer]

I've been working with Rot T and Mitch Wright to setup a track day at VIR where forum members get a 20% discount!

We will be "tagging a long" with a normally scheduled NCM event.

Please join us for 2 great days of racing and fun.

Check out the information in the General Section of the 818 forum here. (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?38232-Let-s-all-meet-at-the-track!)

I would love to meet everyone in person.

A special thanks to Mitch for hooking us up with the discount!

[Hobby Racer]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139530&d=1608414241

Before I tear the motor apart I thought it would be a good idea to get the new engine compartment bracing done since I will need to test fit things a few times. The new brace is one piece that is easily removed with only three bolts. Since the intake sits quite high I needed to arch the rear bar that spans the back of the engine compartment. Its a super tight fit between the intake tube the brace and the underside of the deck lid. With the brace touching the intake tube there is only about 1/8" clearance between the top of the bar and the deck lid!

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I added some gussets to the underside of the arched sections to ensure its plenty rigid.

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After I get the mounting points welded to the frame everything will get a nice coat of paint and its on to the motor build!

[Hobby Racer]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=139578&d=1608497939

For us guys with the 818R's, its tough to change tires, work on brakes or even get your car on a lift if you have one. The car is so low you can not get any normal type of floor jack (even the low profile ones) under the car to jack it up. I've seen a few other builders put in these "Jacking Pockets" to allow you to easily jack up one side by inserting a shaft or tube into a receiver and then use a normal floor jack to lift one side of the car. Well its time to copy that idea.

I ended up using some 2" square tube with thick 1/4" wall for the receiver pieces. I milled out 1" holes on each side to take out some weight and make them look cool. After grinding out the inner weld seams, a 1.5" square tube fits perfectly into it and telescopes in and out with almost no slop.

The only place I could find to mount these where I did not have to remove my aluminum side panels was down at the rear trailing arm pickup point. It actually seems to be a great location. Let me know if you think this a bad spot before I weld it in place. I will cut out a square hole in the body to accept the 1.5" tube after I put the body back on so I get it in the right spot.

BTW I have noticed that since I got my milling machine it seems that everything I do requires mill work. Funny how that happens :p

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[Sgt.Gator]

I think you should mill out the aluminum side panel! :cool:

[lance corsi]

Hobby, I have a low sitting turbo Supra with the same problem. I cut a couple pieces of 2x12 and stacked them, then cut a bevel on the leading edges to ease driving up onto them. This gets me high enough to get a standard floor jack under it. The two ramps are about 24” long, which wouldn’t be too inconvenient to pack along.

[Hobby Racer]

Hobby, I have a low sitting turbo Supra with the same problem. I cut a couple pieces of 2x12 and stacked them, then cut a bevel on the leading edges to ease driving up onto them. This gets me high enough to get a standard floor jack under it. The two ramps are about 24” long, which wouldn’t be too inconvenient to pack along.

I have those already but its inconvenient at best. Once I forgot to bring them to the track and couldn't change my tires! Its nice to just roll up with a standard jack and be able to raise your car without first having to drive up on mini ramps.

[Hobby Racer]

Well I got the motor completely torn down and all my major parts have come in so next step is to find a local shop with the expertise and equipment to properly bore and hone a boxer 6 cylinder engine. I highly doubt most of the local machine shops will have a torque plate for a Subaru H6 motor :rolleyes:

If you guys have a shop on the east coast you would recommend, let me know.

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[roadrashrob]

I know you are in Syracuse, but I took mine from New Paltz, NY to Larry's Auto Machine in Groton, CT. He is amazing and did mine with a Torque plate. (It wasn't an H6, but he specializes in Subaru's so sure he would have one for your engine) He's right at Groton Airport, so I am fortunate enough to be a pilot and just flew my block to him. Mystic Jet Center has courtesy cars, so it was really easy. He also ultrasonically cleaned my intake manifold for me and it came out like new!

http://www.larryspower.com/index.html

[Hobby Racer]

I know you are in Syracuse, but I took mine from New Paltz, NY to Larry's Auto Machine in Groton, CT. He is amazing and did mine with a Torque plate. (It wasn't an H6, but he specializes in Subaru's so sure he would have one for your engine) He's right at Groton Airport, so I am fortunate enough to be a pilot and just flew my block to him. Mystic Jet Center has courtesy cars, so it was really easy. He also ultrasonically cleaned my intake manifold for me and it came out like new!

http://www.larryspower.com/index.html

roadrashrob, thank you for the suggestion!

When I first called he did not have a torque plate for my engine. I could not find ANY shop on the east coast that had a torque plate and could do the machining needed. I was just about to go down the road of machining my own torque plate when Gary from Larry's Auto contacted me to let me know he has another customer looking for an over bore of the same engine and that he is willing to make a torque plate so he can do both jobs!

I'll be shipping him my case halves next week after I build a custom shipping crate to ensure nothing is damaged in transit.

I was getting a little worried that I would have to ship my case all the way to CA to get the work done.

[Hobby Racer]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141169&d=1611368272

With the addition of forced induction I thought it prudent to improve/increase the clamping force on the heads. Here I am installing 12mm ARP-2000 head studs instead of using the OEM 10.5mm cap screw bolts. This required drilling out the old threads in each case half so I could tap for the larger 12mm threads. The Bridgeport was perfect for this job, ensuring accurate, straight holes. To get the tap started, I disengaged the Bridgeport drive spindle so it could be easily spun by hand and mounted the tap in the drill chuck to start the tapping process. When I got the tap down a few threads I removed the drill chuck and finished tapping the threads with a large tap wrench.

Two hours later, the block now uses heavy duty head studs instead of the smaller/weaker head bolts.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141230&d=1611428949

[Hobby Racer]

Using the shorter stroke crankshaft from an EZ30 necessitates using a custom longer connecting rod. Since nobody has aftermarket asymmetric rods for this engine I'm using a modified straight connecting rod that was intended for a Subaru EJ25 NON turbo engine. Unlike all other Subaru engines, the EZ36 is designed to have it's rod caps removed from the oil pan area prior to splitting the case halves and the piston rod assemblies pulled out the top of deck.

To help assemble my short block it is necessary to grind out access slots in the block where the red arrows are in the picture below. This allows a long 3/8" extension and a swivel socket to be used to tighten the rod bolts that are on the bottom side of the crank pin. A die grinder and a carbide burr made quick work of the aluminum.

You only need to do one half of the case as you can install the piston rod combos for the other side prior to bolting the case halves together. If this does not make sense now, I'll document it when I assemble the short block and it will become clear.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141231&d=1611429034

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[Hobby Racer]

The case halves are all packed up and getting shipped to Larry's Auto Machine tomorrow. I made a custom wooden crate lined with 2" hard foam insulation on all sides to protect it during shipping. Ended up being 83 lbs total. The crate alone was 16 lbs!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=141321&d=1611510023

[q4stix]

Awesome! I've wanted to build a shortblock for my eventual replacement EJ25 in my WRX (going 170k miles now). Looking forward to seeing this one come together so I'm glad you're posting pictures and build comments!

[Hobby Racer]

I just got the heads back from a local machine shop and they are now ready for reassembly.

Who says only woman are attracted to pretty, shiny things!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143566&d=1614632408

It took a ton of elbow grease and many dremel sized scotch bright wheels to go from what you see below to what you see above. That, and about 0.005" of material planed from the head by the machine shop to get rid of the aluminum corrosion and pitting to ensure an optimum sealing surface.

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After a thorough wash, I will clear out all the oil and coolant passages before putting the valves back in. To improve valve train stability under boost and high RPM's, I will be installing stiffer valve springs and titanium retainers. This along with the balanced rotating assembly should allow me to increase the red-line to 7000+.

Larry's Machine in CT says they should be boring my block out this week. Hopefully I'll get it back soon so I can assemble the engine. I'll post pics of that process as it happens.

[Hobby Racer]

There are a few minor blemishes on the crankshaft rod journals that need to be polished out prior to assembling the short block. At first I was just going to drop it off at the local machine shop, but then I thought, you have these cool machines and tools, you should be able to do that yourself. This would be so easy if I only had a lathe. But at the moment all I have is a vertical mill and a good imagination. Thinking of the mill as a vertical lathe, I started with a 3/4" piece of steel round stock and instead of putting the cutter in the mill head and clamping the work piece in the vise, I swapped it around. I mounted the round stock in the mill using a 3/4" collet and clamped a lathe cutting tool in the vise. Now the work piece is spinning and I use the X-Y-Z movement of the table to bring the cutting tool to the work. This actually works quite well for basic turning operations. I then welded up a dog drive plate to the mandrel I just made so I can drive the crankshaft without having to clamp onto the bearing surfaces. Here it is mounted up in my drill press since it was too tall to mount in the milling machine. To support the vertical weight of the crankshaft I took a piece of HPDE plastic and drilled a 1" hole in it. This fits the size of the crank snout and keeps the shaft steady while spinning. A bit of grease around the edge and it spins freely without damaging the crank.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143627&d=1614721912

The drive mandrel tapers down below the drive plate to fit nicely into the center hole of the crankshaft.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143628&d=1614721964

Full disclosure, this is the original crankshaft out of the 3.6L, not the new 3.0L crankshaft that will go into the engine. I wanted to test the setup first before trying it on my $$$ new crankshaft!

[Jetfuel]

Necessity....the mother of all inventions...

Jet

[aquillen]

What fun. I would have surfaced the heads in my garage, on a sheet of glass or granite with sandpaper. If only we lived close then banging around on stuff in the shop could be shared. Thanks for show and tell !

[Hobby Racer]

Still waiting to get the block back from the machine shop. So I'm working on the cylinder heads. Here I'm hand lapping in the valves to get a perfect seal. Notice the shiny line denoting the seal between the valve and the seat after lapping.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143972&d=1615229431

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143973&d=1615229436

[Hobby Racer]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144033&d=1615326458

Reinstalled the valves, valve seals, spring seats, springs, retainers and locks. The heads are now complete. What a job that turned into. Getting those tiny valve locks to seat correctly while holding ~100 lbs of pressure on the valve spring is a major pain in the butt!

If it were not for the special valve lock tool (seen in the pic below with the red arrow) I do not think I could have gotten it done.

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[roadrashrob]

Impressive job. As they say, "those that can, do. The rest of us send our heads out"! ;-) Wish I had your skills.... Can't wait to see how Larry's did on your block.

[Hobby Racer]

Upgrading to forced induction requires an increase in fuel flow that is beyond the capability of my stock injectors. I purchased new Subaru STI injectors that claim to flow 565 cc/min. Here I'm testing injectors to find the real flow rates and latency (dead times). The injectors actually flow 590 cc/min!


I built a test rig that runs one bank of injectors at a time through the testing process. I use the ECU's test modes to fire the injectors as needed.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144471&d=1615841976

Here is a short clip of a test run.


https://youtu.be/cnt--hvBpLk

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144472&d=1615841982

[Hobby Racer]

Late last season I changed to Hoosier A7's in 275 x 35 x 18's in the rear. This caused rubbing between the tires and the lower control arms.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144667&d=1616102997

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144666&d=1616102986

I bought aftermarket adjustable rear control arms but I didn't like the way they were built so I decided to modify the stock lower control arms. I started by boxing in the back side of the area were the rubbing was occurring. This provided more structure so I could remove the rubbing section without the arms deforming.

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After cutting out the section that rubbed, I welded in new pieces to complete the arms and add back any strength I had removed.

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[Sgt.Gator]

If I had tried that they would have warped into a pretzel.

[Mitch Wright]

Looks good.
145114I had replaced mine with swedged tubes and was able to move them inboard for additional clearance.

[Hobby Racer]

Oh boy, now I have to look at swedged tubes. I like the light weight and free movement of the swedged tubes. Plus, then the entire rear suspension would be swedged tubes!

[DSR-3]

Spuds and Tube for you!

[Santiago]

I said no more awesome ideas!! *shakes his fist at the sky!*


Oh boy, now I have to look at swedged tubes. I like the light weight and free movement of the swedged tubes. Plus, then the entire rear suspension would be swedged tubes!

Ok...at least show what you did on the knuckle end. Did you just go with a single-shear set up or did you end the tube with a bracket to grab the whole knuckle bushing (OEM style)?

[Hobby Racer]

Ok...at least show what you did on the knuckle end. Did you just go with a single-shear set up or did you end the tube with a bracket to grab the whole knuckle bushing (OEM style)?

Yeah ... what he said :D

[biknman]

I used links and arms and other suspension bits from TSS Fab https://www.tssfab.us. Mr. Timmins at TSS Fab he'll custom do anything you want for my 818r trailing arms I had him add a bit more curve so I could run 295 or 305 no problem.


Arms and Links for my 818r
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Arms and links and other bits for my Suby Couple SM race car
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[Mitch Wright]

I just made aluminum plugs for the rear upright's and a 3/4 rod end and bolt through the upright in single shear and 5/8's on the chassis.145152 you can see part of the plug at the bottom of the photo. Made them in 2 pieces and pressed them in.

[Mitch Wright]

145153145154 you can kinda see what was done in these photos. I made spacers for the chassis mount to move the link inboard about .750 and captured the rod end on the upright with a large AN washer. Worked great, talking to a engineer buddy who did some figuring said in his opinion was more than strong enough and would break the casting in a wreck before the 3/4 grade 8 bolt.

[Hobby Racer]

10 weeks later, the block is finally back from the machine shop! Its not entirely the shop's fault. They did not have the needed torque plate to hone my block when they accepted my job. They were hoping to make their own but decided to purchase one instead. The place they ordered it from took the majority of time making and shipping the plate to them. Once they had everything they needed it only took the shop a day or two to knock out the bore and hone job.

Next was the return shipping. UPS is not gentle by any means, especially with heavy packages. Here are the pics of the box after I removed the block. Three of the four sides of the crate bottom were blown out. The only thing holding the bottom on was two pieces of duct tape and one side of screws! Luckily I packed the block in tight fitting rigid foam insulation board so it was wedged into the crate. This prevented it from falling out, even with most of the bottom structure compromised. I have not even looked at the block yet :rolleyes:

lesson learned, in the future I will use steel or nylon strapping material to go around the crate!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146101&d=1618247979

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146102&d=1618247985

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146103&d=1618247990

[Mitch Wright]

Looking forward to seeing your car in person at VIR in June.

[Hobby Racer]

Nothing says fun like filing ring gaps for hours on end :rolleyes:. First step to assembling the short block is filing the rings to fit each cylinder. I use a simple hand crank filer. It works great and allows you creep up on the ring gap slowly. Given my near eye sight is not what it used to be, the lighted magnifier comes in handy.

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Here I'm using a piston to set the ring in the bore at precisely the same depth each time.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146453&d=1618696412

This is a top ring that has been properly gapped.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146452&d=1618696401

[Hobby Racer]

Now its time to assemble the pistons and rods. First is putting the rings onto the pistons in the correct order and position.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146459&d=1618697008

After many bruised and cut finger tips, all the wire locks that secure the wrist pins are in place. Man are those difficult to get in.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146460&d=1618697015

Since I need to install half the pistons and rods BEFORE bolting the case halves together, I needed a way to hold the crankshaft in place. I made some temporary main caps from some hard wood scrap pieces I had. These allow me to flip the case around while installing 3 of the piston rod combos without the crank falling out. Its just loose enough that I can spin the crank to be able to get the rod caps lined up.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146456&d=1618696992

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Maybe tomorrow it will be a short block!

[Santiago]

Going from high tech computer testing your own injectors to the oldest of the old-school: wooden main caps...

The man is legendary. =)

[aquillen]

Precisely

[J R Jones]

Coincidentally I worked in my son's shop yesterday and he was starting the assembly of his new upgraded 1UZ (Lexus) V8. He has a supercharger on it and the original V8 was worrisome at 11PSI. When I got there he was exasperated after an hour trying to get the C-ring wrist pin retainers installed. We double teamed them, me holding the clip in place with both thumbs and Grant with a screwdriver pushing the loose end in place.
At #10 or 11 retainer my thumbs were "dented'out". We managed to finish with me wearing welding gloves. BTW the rings are capable of firing 10 feet from almost installed static position.

[Hobby Racer]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146505&d=1618782872

I was able to button up the short block today. Best tool ever for inserting pistons into the bores are tapered aluminum piston ring compressors. Makes it super easy and almost foolproof. You can see mine in the picture below.

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[fletch]

this rebuild makes me want 2 more cylinders ... and the skill to assemble them ... and use them on the track
so much want

[fletch]

I'm really curious to see the jacking pockets in use. Do they penetrate the fiberglass side sails in some fashion?

[Hobby Racer]

I'm really curious to see the jacking pockets in use. Do they penetrate the fiberglass side sails in some fashion?

They will once I get the body back on the car. Here is a picture of the pockets in use from Sgt. Gator's thread.

Jacking pockets in use (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?26054-Gator-s-818R&p=419630&viewfull=1#post419630)

[Hobby Racer]

Getting closer to closing up the motor. Got the upper and lower oil pans and heads on. I needed to fasten the engine stand to the heavy bench with a long clamp to keep it from moving while torquing the heads. I had issues putting the first head on. Unlike the factory head bolts, the ARP head studs require that you put the washers on the head BEFORE you lower the head onto the studs. If you put the head on first, you can not get the washers in place. Of course this crucial bit of info was not mentioned in the installation instructions.


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146571&d=1618872990

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146570&d=1618872981

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146569&d=1618872968

[q4stix]

As always, looking great. I'm really enjoying seeing the build up

[Hobby Racer]

I could have finished closing up the motor today if I did not have to do everything twice :rolleyes:

Started off lubing and installing the cams. That went pretty smoothly so I buttoned up the heads, put the covers on and all the sensors in before moving on to the front timing chain, which I knew was going to be challenging.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146603&d=1618954148

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146604&d=1618954154

It was at this point that I noticed 4 of these little guys sitting on the bench. 146607 I thought, hmm.. aren't those supposed to be inside the cam covers? Yes, in fact those are small oil filters that go here 146608 in the underside of each cam cover to keep participles from clogging up the VVT system. So now I had to disassemble everything back down to the camshafts, clean all the RTV off everything and start again.

I think its a good time to stop for lunch...

After lunch I built everything back up and then needed to take a short break to make a custom tool needed to hold the idler sprocket stationary while applying 90 ft/lbs. of torque to the bolt that secures it. An appropriately sized piece of scrap metal and a few 7/16 bolts and voila, a Subaru custom tool for hundreds less.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146605&d=1618954160

After that I spend quite a while figuring out which bolts went where in the timing chain assembly. In my hurry to disasseble everything I just put all the bolts for the timing chain assembly in one zip-lock bag. There were different sizes, head types and grip lengths. The factory service manual makes no mention of what bolts go where so it took some time to sort it all out.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146606&d=1618954166

Tomorrow it should be complete and I can get it back in the car.

[Hobby Racer]

Engine is all buttoned up. Tomorrow it goes back in the car and then the fabricating begins!

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[Rob T]

A thing of beauty. I can't wait to see it in person at the end of June at VIR!

[Hobby Racer]

Nature has a sick sense of humor. This is what it was like when I went out to work on the car this morning

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Anyway, the drive-train is back in the car and the fabricating has begun. First on the list is mounting the inter-cooler. Instead of throwing out my old wing support, I decided to try and make it work with the inter-cooler and new triangular engine cross brace. I have a bunch of time in that support and I did not want to start from scratch. I ended up cutting out the bars pointed to by the red arrows and added the bars pointed to by the yellow arrows. As luck would have it, the height of the new bars was almost a perfect fit when fastened to the top of my triangular engine brace. I simply used longer bolts and welded the new bars in.


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146708&d=1619129611\


Here it is after removing the all the unneeded bars. A much cleaner look I think, especially without the large and heavy FFR cross brace.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146709&d=1619129623

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I'm thinking of mounting the inter-cooler in this sort of position.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146713&d=1619130343

[Hobby Racer]

The FFR engine cross brace also has tabs to support the rear fender arches. Since I eliminated that brace completely I needed to add supports for the rear fender arches and the inner fender liners. Mine are much lighter than the FFR unit and are permanently mounted to the chassis.


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146852&d=1619218083

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[Mitch Wright]

146905
I made block off panels and eliminated the FFR wheel arches which made the rear of the car easier to service and saved a little weight.

[Hobby Racer]

I like the block off panels for their simplicity but I like how clean the inner liners keep the engine bay. All that rubber and debris flying off the tires is contained :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

146905
I made block off panels and eliminated the FFR wheel arches wish made the rear of the car easier to service and saved a little weight.

Here is a picture of my block off panels. I was trying to keep engine bay heat from coming forward in the side sails.

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[Mitch Wright]

Honestly the engine bay stayed nice and clean, the only time it got mildly dirty was driving the car in the wet but a quick pressure wash took car of that.

[Hobby Racer]

I spent the entire day just making this one coolant tube. I did take the morning to dust off my TIG welding skills on thin wall aluminum tubing, so that was a large chunk of time. And then I did end up making the part 3 times :rolleyes:

With the addition of the supercharger my old cross over coolant tube would not work. It interfered with the pulley and my removable engine brace. I kept the same basic design and just moved it down and changed some angles to get everything to fit in the space provided.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146984&d=1619478115

The coolant tube on the left needed to be laid down at a 45 degree angle to avoid hitting the supercharger pulley and or belt.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146985&d=1619478120

Things are pretty tight in the end, but should be fine.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146986&d=1619478125

[Hobby Racer]

The entire drive-line is back in, hopefully for the entire season. I spent the day mocking up the inter-cooler location and charge piping. Hanging the inter-cooler from the wing support seems to be the easiest solution. I made a simple hanging bracket using threaded rods and scrap wood so I could easily adjust the height and pitch of the inter-cooler.

Once I get it were I like it, I'll weld in some support brackets.

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[Mitch Wright]

Looking forward to seeing how you will be suppling air to the IC.

[lance corsi]

Bob-n-Cincy found that area to be a low pressure zone during normal driving. He tried a radiator there with no luck.

[J R Jones]

I developed an oil cooler for a road racing motorcycle to replace the OEM forward facing cooler attached to a front frame tube. I built a forward facing snorkel with the inlet in undisturbed air to the side of the forks. In the back of the snorkel I mounted the cooler ahead of the riders knee facing outward. Exhaust would discharge just outside of the riders leg. The faring covered the core and had a reverse NACA duct as an extractor port. Turning the ram-air 90 degrees through the core was so effective it worked without the extractor or the faring.147343

The ram airflow was sufficient to cool the rear cylinder as well, it id not all exit at the cooler.
jim

[Hobby Racer]

Looking forward to seeing how you will be suppling air to the IC.


Bob-n-Cincy found that area to be a low pressure zone during normal driving. He tried a radiator there with no luck.

Fear not folks I have an idea that should work fantastic. It will be fully ducted so it does not matter that the area is a low pressure zone.

Hope to have it done by early next week. Finished up the inter-cooler and intake duct work.

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[J R Jones]

On the topic of jacking pockets:
My floor jack is not the latest low profile configuration and will not position under the frame. As I mentioned in a message, I picked a higher location at the intersection of frame tubes for jacking pockets. Surface mounting is not an option in my case.
My body installs tight to the side of the frame like a shoe box cover and is wider than the 818. My struts are a bit long now and will be trimmed to fit with the body on. The pockets are 2.0 inches deep and get good structural support.
jim

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[Santiago]

I'd hang stuff off that sexy wing-mount too... =)

I'm sure Hobby has a plan.
Then I'm sure I'm going to look into copying it...

[Hobby Racer]

The good news: The car started and didn't catch fire so I must have assembled everything correctly :D

The bad news: The stock Mass Air Flow system is not going to work for the supercharged installation. I get terrible blower surge and the AFR's are all over the place. So I need to change the tune and intake system to use a Speed Density type tune. It does simplify the intake plumbing a lot, so there is that.

My big concern is finishing in time for my first track event on 5/17! The clock is ticking...

[Rob T]

When my engine was rebuilt, the tune was changed to speed density. I had another third party tuner look at it when I was in NM and "afraid" of the altitude at the track. The SD tune has been awesome. Good luck....

[Hobby Racer]

I tried using pink XPS foam board to construct a male mold for my intercooler ducting. I thought everything was going alright. I laid up the first part and got it to pop out of the mold after applying some high pressure air between the part and the mold.

I needed to modify the mold slightly before I laid up the second duct and that's where it got interesting. I cut into the mold and found that the auto body filler had hardened creating the outer shell but it also eat into and dissolved the underlying foam. Now the mold is pretty much useless.

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I think I'm going to change my design and make the ducts out of aluminum sheet.

[Santiago]

I tried using pink XPS foam board to construct a male mold for my intercooler ducting. ... I cut into the mold and found that the auto body filler had hardened creating the outer shell but it also eat into and dissolved the underlying foam. Now the mold is pretty much useless.

You should try spray painting XPS - wow, now that's a dramatic loss of form. =)

I love making bucks out of XPS - but you have to protect it before applying many types of finishes. Epoxy and XPS are fast friends; so you can make your own "bondo" like surfacing filler by mixing it with micro balloons or cabo-sil, etc. This makes it easy to sand. Depending on how much you need, this is more expensive than bondo. In economy-mode, I've used epoxy floor paint for larger items (test a small piece first to be sure of compatibility). You just need to seal the foam, not make it tougher. Once sealed, it's more apt to take the bondo.

My favorite method though is to scrim the XPS with light 0.75 oz fiberglass cloth (not mat, cloth). This seals and strengthens the buck. Then you can smooth it out pretty much any way you want.

Best,
-j

[Hobby Racer]

My favorite method though is to scrim the XPS with light 0.75 oz fiberglass cloth (not mat, cloth). This seals and strengthens the buck. Then you can smooth it out pretty much any way you want.

When you scrim the foam, are you using epoxy, vinyl-ester or polyester resin? I would think the hardeners and heat produced by the resins hardening would effect the foam.

[J R Jones]

John, I learned about foam prototypes through the Harley Davidson styling department, and later a prototype tech from American Motors. The common pink foam board will dissolve with polyester, bondo or resin. Blue foam board will not. You may need to source through an art supply store.

BTW I did a styling prototype project to turn a Buell Blast into a Sportster look. The Blast fuel tank was roto-molded plastic and large. I wanted to save the inner structure and mounts, and cut away the outside to look like the "peanut" Sportster tank.
I filled it with "Great Stuff expanding foam (like we make formula car seats out of) and gave it a couple days to cure.
When I started slicing off the outside in a Grobe bandsaw, the inside was still uncured. Once exposed the sticky crap started to set-up and clean-up with lacquer thinner was a nightmare.
jim

[Larry J W]

Yes, polyester resins will eat the foam. When I remodeled the rear deck of the 818 I had to use epoxy to bond the 6 oz cloth to the foam. In hind site I should have used a second layer of cloth in that the surface was not as rigid as I had hoped for. The shape was good. The filler beads (fairing compound) makes for easy sanding. With a little finesse the 1/2 inch foam can be worked into a 4 inch radius. Tighter than that requires epoxied foam laminations ruffed to shape, a messy job.

I believe the spray foams are moisture cure so as the surface cures it can no longer get moisture from the air.

Larry

[Jetfuel]

Hobby, your method with the pink foam will work, make your mold and paint it with two coats of regular home latex paint...resin can't eat it up and will hold the shape...
that's how I make most of my f/glass..carbon or Kevlar pieces...it works

jet

[Santiago]

Hobby, your method with the pink foam will work, make your mold and paint it with two coats of regular home latex paint...resin can't eat it up and will hold the shape...
that's how I make most of my f/glass..carbon or Kevlar pieces...it works

jet

+1 : Cheapest way to seal the foam, you're just trying to prevent direct contact with the resin or bondo.

I only scrim a buck with cloth if I want a better chance to reuse it (adds strength that the latex paint alone will not). I prefer to work with epoxy. More expensive, yes. Worth it, absolutely. The heat from curing isn't so high that the foam melts. On a very thin piece you might get some deformation of form - so you would want to have some support (but we're talking about pieces less than 1/8" thick). In most cases the foam holds up just fine.

BTW, you could scrim a buck with almost anything; it doesn't have to be fiberglass. I've used spandex, which stretches nicely, and I've seen others use simple cotton cloth (think "tee-shirt"). The basic idea is (a) prevent direct contact and (b) improve form. To the later, spandex and cotton won't really make the buck much stronger, but it does give a tick more insurance against sanding through to the foam and in some cases they smooth out the shape (req. less bondo, etc.).

[J R Jones]

I have eliminated polyester from my fabrication for years. The physical properties of epoxy is better, My supplier offers several hardener speeds which can be an asset in the cold.

I have replaced molded parts by fabricating with pre-formed cut & bond sheet and tube. Initially it was SMC like sheets and tubes from MCMaster but I found epoxy sheets in AZ. An asset is both sides are "A" or smooth.
With a variety of material gauges, I often build wood armatures, cut / bend / and screw the bits to the armature and bond the edges. After the armature comes out I bond cloth along the joints. Usually the inside, but if stress is an issue, both sides.
I built a replica of a Mercedes SSK which was an aluminum car, mostly simple bends, and my process worked well, for a one-off.

In place of micro beads which can be a PIA I have used sanding dust for epoxy filler (recycling dirt).

I have also used Ashland body shop panel bonder and Loctite EA 9460 epoxy with glass cloth for spot repair. Not real wet, but they do penetrate.
I have not used JB Weld for years, I have more confidence in Devcon. I have used Devcon and/or epoxy in high impact areas (front of the car and edges) where bondo might be challenged.
jim

[Hobby Racer]

I'm under the gun to get everything buttoned up on the car so I can break in the engine/trans/clutch on track this coming Monday and Tuesday. Making the intercooler ducting out of fiberglass was not going so well so I pivoted and turned to what I'm good at, metal fabrication. In a few hours I was able to knock out a pretty nice inter-cooler duct out of some 22 gauge aluminum sheet I had left over from other projects.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147827&d=1620955653

The duct is sealed to the bottom of the inter-cooler and has two 4" diameter inlets to force cool air through the core. The bottom edges that contact the inter-cooler core are hemmed over for strength and provide a smooth wide sealing surface. I have to say, riv-nuts are your friend :o

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Mounting the inter-cooler and duct in place shows just how crapped things are getting in my engine bay! Cool air will be rammed in from the driver side scoop (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?23199-John-s-EZ36R-H6-818R-Build&p=299742&viewfull=1#post299742), which if you remember are significantly larger on my build.

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[Hobby Racer]

The Rotrex supercharger has its own oiling system and its own oil cooler that must be mounted below the level of the supercharger. I was able to mount it in the passenger scoop just below my air intake duct.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147837&d=1620956804

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147838&d=1620956811

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147839&d=1620956832

As with most mid engine cars, air management is one of the most important things to consider. It can be challenging to get cool air to all the different components and coolers that need it.

But with careful planning you can usually get it to all fit and stay cool :cool:

[Rob T]

I'm looking forward to seeing this car at VIR!

[J R Jones]

John, You have eliminated NVA time (non-value added) by switching from plastic to aluminum. No waiting for chemicals to cure.
I have to admit to the joy of getting up in the morning and evaluating my late night chemistry.
Is it hard yet?
Did it drip on the floor?
How much grinding is required to make it look acceptable?
In the case of finish coats, orange peal and/or danglers? The underside that I missed?

IMO those enlarged inlets on the sides are an excellent feature in your air handling package
jim

[Hobby Racer]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147859&d=1621035074

The last part of my intercooler setup is to create a duct that attaches to the driver side air vent and routes air to the intercooler duct from my previous post. And since the intercooler duct worked so nice in aluminum I just went for it. This duct was way more intricate then the last. By the time I was done it looked like some origami creation!

It should work great though. I bonded it to the fiberglass side pod. Tomorrow I'll mount it up to the car and run the twin 4" air ducts.

147860 147861 147862 147863 147864 147865

[Hobby Racer]

Finished everything today for my break-in track sessions on Monday and Tuesday. Hopefully all goes well. Here is the side pod I fabricated in my last post.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147887&d=1621122366

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147888&d=1621122372

Here is a shot looking down on everything.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147889&d=1621122378

[Rob T]

Can't wait to hear how it goes.....

[Sgt.Gator]

I hope you have an IAT logger so you can do some testing with one of them closed vs both open.

[Hobby Racer]

I hope you have an IAT logger so you can do some testing with one of them closed vs both open.

Yes, I have sensors on and log everything! The next two days are just about breaking-in the motor. Seating the rings, clutch, syncro's etc... So much new stuff, need to get it all working together.

[Sgt.Gator]

Yes, I have sensors on and log everything! The next two days are just about breaking-in the motor. Seating the rings, clutch, syncro's etc... So much new stuff, need to get it all working together.

I just remember our tranny cooler attempt using the side ducts: We built a collector into the passenger side scoop that's just in front of the rear tire. We ran brake duct hose back to shroud around the tranny cooler. We thought that the scoop would send flow thru the duct, thru the cooler and out the back. I assumed that the side scoop pressure would be stronger than the rear of the car pressure. I quickly learned on the track that was a bad assumption.
So breaking out my IR thermometer was very educational. It appears the air in the duct was either completely stagnant of was actually running in reverse.
The shroud around the cooler, 237 degrees.
The brake duct between the scoop and the cooler shroud, 155 degrees.
The scoop inlet, 84 degrees.
I hope your exit out the top works better than our exit out the back!
Taping wool tufts at the entrance and exit and recording them with a GoPro may be very interesting.

[J R Jones]

Sgt, your experience would obfuscate static pressure, there would be a reading but the source would be unknown. Dynamic pressure translates to air speed and direction. In either case the magnitude is small, inches of water. An instrument or data collector must have an appropriate (low pressure) range. I used Omegas that would register peak for testing at speed.
jim

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Taping wool tufts at the entrance and exit and recording them with a GoPro may be very interesting.


https://youtu.be/pDvr0Ic5iQs

This is my video when I was testing a rear-mounted radiator. The fans on the radiator was running.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Here is another video of rear airflow.


https://youtu.be/I7XDxiXPtak

[Hobby Racer]

This is kind of long so if you want the juicy stuff, skip to the pics :D

So I've spent the last two days at Watkins Glen International breaking in the new motor, clutch etc...

First the good parts:

I got ~300 miles on the new motor and it ran perfectly. It's not tuned so it didn't make great power with only about 3.5 psi of boost, but from a mechanical perspective it could not have gone better. Starts and idles smoothly, BOV makes a cool woosh... sound when you shift or let off the throttle. Runs super smooth and revs quick thanks to the shorter stroke and balanced internals. I kept the revs under 5200 and throttle below 70% all while managing to get passed by everybody .... sometimes twice in a single session :rolleyes:

Temps and pressures were all good except the IAT's are a little higher than I would like at ~105 F. I will have to add some heat shielding and maybe work on my ducting a bit more.

Oil consumption and blow by are nonexistent. After 300 miles, zero oil in the catch can. I must have gotten the ring gaps right.

Now the bad parts:

At the end of the second day I backed out of the garage and the car abruptly stopped. Kind of felt like a wheel chock was left behind my tire. I tried moving forward and the car would go about 3 feet and abruptly stop again. The car would only move 3 feet forward and back, no more.

After some poking around myself and a few other determined it was something in the transaxle. Well that's something I can not fix at the track so my day was over. Hard part now was getting the car in the trailer! We ended up removing the under body panels at the rear and using two floor jacks to raise the rear tires off the ground and then winched the car into the trailer backwards.

Fast forward to today:

I drained the transaxale and metal chunks started falling into the bucket. Not a good sign I thought to myself, probably ate a ring and pinion gear set.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148124&d=1621461095

After getting into the tear down I was shocked to discover that every single ring gear bolt was loose and most were sticking up. One of the the bolts was so far out it was digging into the sun dial and that was what was causing the car to stop. The inside of the case has some scars but nothing that will effect functionality once its cleaned up. I need to order new ring gear bolts, clean evenything thoughly and reassemble.

All in all it could have been much worse. If one of those bolts came out, or a head broke off, it would have destroyed the transmission.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148125&d=1621461105

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148126&d=1621461112

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148127&d=1621461117

As it is I'm only out some new bolts and my time. What do you think could have made this happen? I have my theories but I'd like to hear yours.

[SnailFoot]

Possibly the ring gear was not seated when the bolts were torqued.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Mine came loose while going 70 mph on the highway.
Dumped all the oil down the middle lane.
My transmission case had never been opened.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBGVQCvmhRs

[jforand]

This is not good news at all. It would be nice if they were a lot easier to get to for a re-torque.

[Hobby Racer]

Possibly the ring gear was not seated when the bolts were torqued.

Doubtful as this was a factory untouched unit.


Mine came loose while going 70 mph on the highway.
Dumped all the oil down the middle lane.

I count myself lucky as it could have been much worse.


This is not good news at all. It would be nice if they were a lot easier to get to for a re-torque.

Yes, a complete tear down is the only way to get to them.


Given the way that all the fasteners were loose about the same amount. This is most likely a vibration issue, operating near the resonate frequency of the assembly and that caused them to back out.

I am considering either Nord-Lock washers if there is space and grip length on the bolts to accommodate them, or I'm going to try to drill the heads and use safety wire. The issue with drilling them is that they are thin external Torx heads with a large flange so not an easy thing to drill.

[J R Jones]

John, I have heard it said that Loctite will not fix a defect, but I am interested to know if you found Loctite on the threads. Is thread locker speced by Subaru?
Are these the original bolts? Have they or the assembly procedure been updated (TSB)? For instance has the bolt been redesigned with a necked-down shaft to provide more stretch at design torque? Short bolts do not stretch much.

Is the gear tooth pattern consistent? Is there a "spot" anomaly that could set-up a vibration? Bearings OK?
jim

[Sgt.Gator]

What do you think could have made this happen? I have my theories but I'd like to hear yours.

The answer is simple: Because Racecar.

Something is vibrating. Do you have an aftermarket lightened flywheel?

[jforand]

Can you ‘stake’ or ‘peen’ the outside circumference of the flange to the ring gear flange? The idea is to make enough of a deformity that it will not easily rotate past. Ultimately the Nord-Lock washers need that dig into the ring gear flange (causing some deformity) so that the base washer does not rotate and then of course any rotation of the bolt head would bring the top masher with it and the inclined planes would prevent the loosening. Perhaps you could make a small dimple in the flange that you could stake a bit of the bolt flange down into. Putting a serious wrench on it would drive past the point without issue for removal.

[J R Jones]

John,
I reread your post and see "balanced internals" and "shorter stroke". My SBF and Mazda rotary had balanced flywheels. Any chance the short stroke is not compatible with the flywheel?
That is a reach. I have a hard time connecting engine to this failure. How about the axles/CVs? Can a drive shaft shop spin them?
jim

[Hobby Racer]

Is the gear tooth pattern consistent? Is there a "spot" anomaly that could set-up a vibration? Bearings OK?
jim

Gear tooth pattern looks good and I have not looked at the bearing yet.


The answer is simple: Because Racecar.

Something is vibrating. Do you have an aftermarket lightened flywheel?

In fact I do have an Exedy lightened flywheel that I just added last year ... hmm....


John,
I reread your post and see "balanced internals" and "shorter stroke". My SBF and Mazda rotary had balanced flywheels. Any chance the short stroke is not compatible with the flywheel?
jim

I don't think so as the flywheel has a neutral balance. Boxer engines are internally balanced and do not require any external weighting like most american V8's do.

[Hobby Racer]

Here is a look at the inside of the case where the ring bolt was contacting around the sundial area. You can clearly see the two large burs built up that was causing the abrupt stop in the forward and rearward motion of the car. Glad I was being gentle with the car and didn't just "put the beans to it" in order to get it to move :rolleyes:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148219&d=1621548722

Here are some of the aluminum bits from the trans oil.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148216&d=1621547785


My solution to the ring gear bolt issue is to drill the bolt heads and use safety wire to keep them from backing off. A few hours on the milling machine and I now have ring gear bolts with holes in one of the external torx lobes. First I used a small end mill to create a flat section on one side of the lobe. Then spotted the hole before drilling the 1/16" thru hole. I think I'm going to do it to the clutch cover bolts as well since its apart now.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148213&d=1621547785

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148214&d=1621547785

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148215&d=1621547785

[SnailFoot]

I found a forum post about this and how one person handles the problem. https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2831498&page=3 #59

It looks like other people have had a similar problem with the ring gear coming loose.

[fletch]

Well, crap. Wishing I had done something about this when we had our transmission apart. Guess we’ll just cross our fingers for now.

[Hobby Racer]

While I'm waiting for parts to come in from Subaru to reassemble my 6 speed, I decided to safety wire both the flywheel and clutch cover. Since the transmission is off anyway, might as well head off those potential issues now.

I made a nice drill jig to make drilling all the bolts super fast and easy. I didn't even break a drill bit since the jig holds everything straight and tight.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148335&d=1621810347

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148336&d=1621810347

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148337&d=1621810347

[jforand]

Looks great. I see you decided to go through the full bolt on the centerline. I was wondering how the safety wire was going to work on your ring gear bolts. It seems that might be a bit more tricky and will depend on where the holes end up once torqued. Are you thinking about revising the way you drill the ring gear bolts?

[Hobby Racer]

I found a forum post about this and how one person handles the problem. https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2831498&page=3 #59

It looks like other people have had a similar problem with the ring gear coming loose.

Thanks for posting this. I did not know that 5MT ring gear bolts would work on a 6MT.


Looks great. I see you decided to go through the full bolt on the centerline. I was wondering how the safety wire was going to work on your ring gear bolts. It seems that might be a bit more tricky and will depend on where the holes end up once torqued. Are you thinking about revising the way you drill the ring gear bolts?

I am going to use 5MT ring gear bolts as they are normal hex head and I can drill straight thru them.

[Hobby Racer]

I was not happy with the IAT's I was seeing during the break-in at Watkins Glen. Even though the engine was under medium load and speeds were 100+ mph, the IAT's were over 100 F. I could not think of a way to dramatically improve the cooling flow through the intercooler core without major alterations to the bodywork, which I do not want to do.

So a trip to https://www.frozenboost.com got me all the major component I need. The car is now almost completely apart again. But, this should fix the problem and it will be done before VIR in June!

[J R Jones]

John, What was the delta, ambient to IAT?
What was the delta, intercooler IAT "in" to intercooler IAT "out"?
What performance does the intercooler manufacturer predict? Maybe your results are within manufacturer expectations.
The data above can be compared to AWIC. Every track event is a new day.
jim

[Hobby Racer]

John, What was the delta, ambient to IAT?
What was the delta, intercooler IAT "in" to intercooler IAT "out"?
What performance does the intercooler manufacturer predict? Maybe your results are within manufacturer expectations.
The data above can be compared to AWIC. Every track event is a new day.
jim

The ambient air temp was ~75 F, so I was seeing a delta of 25-30 degrees which is not acceptable as once its tuned and I turn up the wick I will be generating more heat which would put the IAT's in the danger zone.

I do not have a sensor pre-intercooler so no data for that.

The manufacturer (https://www.treadstoneperformance.com/trv125-series--intercooler--500hp/p104786)does not give predicted deltas because there are so many variables. Like most mid-engined cars, cooling an intercooler is a challenge without large bodywork modifications. I do not want to alter the body that much as I like the looks of it now.

[J R Jones]

John, Intercooling is not an expertise for me. I had to look up AWIC when I saw it on this forum. My interpretation is it is water to core to intake charge for cooling. I anticipate that it is a stand alone system, not sharing engine coolant.

So both intake systems are dependent on ambient air. The difference is ambient to core to intake charge is supplanted by ambient to core to water to core to intake charge.,

The assumption is there is more temperature drop across a water cooled core. Still the AWIC system is dependent on ambient and heat soak of the independent cooling system. The system will start at ambient but will heat soak over time.
Ambient is an infinite medium.

In the end it is IAT delta across the (intercooler) core after system temperature stabilization.
jim
If you like the 818 styling, you mway not like mine. I have not given thought to the intercooler yet. Eventually I will be NA.148551148552

[taco20]

Hey Hobby

The past weekend at Summit Point I was seeing peak intake air temps around 150 degrees on my Cobb. It was a hot day of between 85-90 so that didn’t help. I have a water temp gauge on my heat exchanger and it was at 90 degrees before I even left the pits. I am sure I was seeing the peak temp at top speed of above 120 for this track with my turbo set to make 18 psi. On cooler days the temp is lower for sure but if you run it hard on a hot day even my huge heat exchanger cannot keep up with keeping the temps down. I don’t know what you got from Frozen Boost but if you got there normal single pass one inch thick heat exchanger you will find out real fast it can’t keep up. We will have to compare our setups at VIR and see who’s does a better job.

[Hobby Racer]

Hey Hobby

The past weekend at Summit Point I was seeing peak intake air temps around 150 degrees on my Cobb. It was a hot day of between 85-90 so that didn’t help. I have a water temp gauge on my heat exchanger and it was at 90 degrees before I even left the pits. I am sure I was seeing the peak temp at top speed of above 120 for this track with my turbo set to make 18 psi. On cooler days the temp is lower for sure but if you run it hard on a hot day even my huge heat exchanger cannot keep up with keeping the temps down. I don’t know what you got from Frozen Boost but if you got there normal single pass one inch thick heat exchanger you will find out real fast it can’t keep up. We will have to compare our setups at VIR and see who’s does a better job.

Good information. With most people on the forum posting temps 10 - 15 degrees above ambient with their AWIC systems I thought 30 degrees above ambient with my air to air was way too high. Hope I didn't jump the gun :rolleyes:

And yes, I got the 1" thick radiator that's 24"x14"x1". It's the same size as my coolant radiator, just thinner. How long does yours take to heat up on track? Do you have an additional reservoir?

[taco20]

148560148561148562

Hey Hobby

I attached some old pics I have of my reservoir when I first put it on. Plus I included a newer picture of my bigger heat exchanger. I had to go with a bigger radiator and heat exchanger to try to keep things cool. I even had to lower the front panels down to included the lower hole above the front spliter to get more air for the radiator.

[Hobby Racer]

Loctite 263 + Safety Wire

5MT ring gear bolts finally came in. Drilling them was challenging. I broke 3 cobalt drill bits in three different bolts. Miraculously I was able to drill them from the opposite side and knock out the broken bits with a small punch.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=148614&d=1622237361

[SnailFoot]

Did you run both radiator lines on the passenger side and both intercooler lines on the drivers side to keep the radiator lines from heating the intercooler lines?

[Hobby Racer]

Did you run both radiator lines on the passenger side and both intercooler lines on the drivers side to keep the radiator lines from heating the intercooler lines?

I have not run the intercooler lines yet, but yes both coolant lines are on the passenger side and both intercooler lines will be on the drivers side.

[J R Jones]

John,
Years ago in a development shop I heard the suggestion of using retaining compound in extraordinary thread retention circumstances. I might have tried it myself. Interesting detail is the shear strength of 263 thread nlocker is 1305 PSI and tensile strength of 275 PSI. Loctite 680 (green) retaining compound has a shear strength of 4000 PSI, no tensile strength listed. It is considered permanent. I think I saw retaining compound listed earlier in this thread.
Getting broken drill bits out as you did means you lead a charmed life.

[Hobby Racer]

Years ago in a development shop I heard the suggestion of using retaining compound in extraordinary thread retention circumstances. I might have tried it myself. Interesting detail is the shear strength of 263 thread nlocker is 1305 PSI and tensile strength of 275 PSI. Loctite 680 (green) retaining compound has a shear strength of 4000 PSI, no tensile strength listed. It is considered permanent. I think I saw retaining compound listed earlier in this thread.

I have retaining compound but its general only for very close fitment object like bearing races in a housing or press fit items. Realatively loose fitting things like threads generally don't work well with retaining compounds.



Getting broken drill bits out as you did means you lead a charmed life.

Your not kidding! I was amazed I got them out. When it happened 3 times I was sure I'd have to order new bolts and wait another week to finish.

[J R Jones]

John, The "gap" has to be tight enough to be anaerobic. Applications are all over, and I have witnessed miracles. Loctite says:
Loctite 680 retaining compound is a high strength, high viscosity room temperature curing adhesive used to join fitted cylindrical parts. It fixtures in 10 min and provides a shear strength of 4000 psi. Capable of filling diametral gaps up to 0.015 Inch (0.38 mm). - Loctite 680 is designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts, particularly where low viscosity is required. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces and prevents loosening and leakage from shock and vibration.

Intercooler topic: I have discussed 33 Rod overheating on another post and NAZ came up with a stunning cooling system analysis: https://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%...20Cooling.html
The facts about flows and temperature drops are applicable to intercooling devices. Not a casual read.
MY SW20 Series II MR2 has an upgraded turbo with a larger intercooler flush to the right side air inlet and it has a full size fan sucking on it. Putting a fan on your intercooler might work with your air ducting or position the intercooler as I described on my MR2. Again, IAT deltas in and out of the intercooler would be the metric.

[Hobby Racer]

MY SW20 Series II MR2 has an upgraded turbo with a larger intercooler flush to the right side air inlet and it has a full size fan sucking on it. Putting a fan on your intercooler might work with your air ducting or position the intercooler as I described on my MR2. Again, IAT deltas in and out of the intercooler would be the metric.

I thought about adding a sucker fan to the top of the intercooler but I only had a little over 1.5" from the top of the intercooler to the underside of the rear hatch so I could not fit any sizable fan on top and since the intercooler and duct were almost touching the top of the transmission there was no room to move it down either.

That also played into my decision to go AWIC.

[J R Jones]

John, Displaying his nether-fan to competitors did not discourage Jim Hall with the Chaparral. Then again his downfall was competitors complained that it sucked.
I am partial to the Carrier roof top A/C look.

[Hobby Racer]

I decided to change the pulley size on my supercharger before going to the dyno in preparation for the VIR track day at the end of this month (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?38232-Let-s-all-meet-at-the-track!). I had been running the largest pulley Rotrex makes, 110mm. I would like to say I did this intentionally to ensure the engine would not see high boost during break-in, but honestly I calculated the pulley size wrong during my initial setup :p.

During break-in I saw only about 3.5 psi of boost @ 5000 rpm. I am now moving to a 90 mm pulley in hopes of generating around 12 psi @ 7200 rpm. At this pulley size the supercharger impeller will be spinning at 90k rpm when the engine is at redline :eek:.

The engine in my car is so close to the firewall that you can not access the front of the motor in order to remove the serpentine belt. The only way to get to it is to remove the engine. Well that was not going to happen so I decided instead to cut two access panels in the firewall to give me access to the font of the motor.

The small hole on the left allows me to pass a ratchet extension thru the firewall to access the supercharger pulley bolt. The large triangular hole gives me good access to the front of the motor, including the belt tensioner.

I was not too worried about the holes since the FFR aluminum firewall goes over this and will cover everything up nicely.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=149235&d=1623189948

Tomorrow the new pulley arrives and I can finally get this thing back together!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=149234&d=1623189948

[Frank818]

Awesome!

I plan on fitting a solid FW like yours one day (I use a thick heat shield sheet at the moment), but I need 2 triangles, that one and the one behind the driver.
I did leave just enough space to remove the serpentine belt though, but other maintenance is not possible and I need to remove the entire old rear FFR FW every single time, which is about once a week.

Now, are you sure you calculated that 90mm right or will it be wrong again? :)
And when are we going to know?
From 3.5psi to 12psi, that is a huge difference in power!

[Sgt.Gator]

I think I would still put cover plates over the engine firewall to separate it from the gas tank. Something simple with Dzus fasteners or similar.

[Hobby Racer]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=149363&d=1623374449

Finally got the last part I was waiting for to finish the AWIC install. Retrofitting an AWIC is much more time consuming than doing it when your building the car!

The AWIC radiator sits nicely in front of the main coolant radiator. Both are sealed in on all sides to ensure all the air is forced through the cores. There are a few inches of air gap between the radiators to keep the hot coolant radiator away from the cooler AWIC radiator. The pump is mounted low in the nose compartment and the 3/4" heater hoses are routed down the driver's side pod. I installed temperature sensors in both the inlet and outlet of the AWIC radiator so I can log temperature deltas.

149369 149368 149367 149370

The intercooler support bracket was quite challenging to make on the fly without CAD drawings. Odd shapes and crazy angles, but it turned out nice. I wanted to mount the intercooler to the engine/trans instead of securing it to the chassis. This way it moves with the motor and does not stress any of the connections, plus it's easier to remove the drive line this way.

149366 149372 149365 149371

[Rob T]

John: I ended up with a radiator cap fitting and an expansion tank in my AWIC loop. The level in the tank goes up a bit when running and the water gets "hot". It might be overkill, but hasn't caused me any issues, either.

[Hobby Racer]

John: I ended up with a radiator cap fitting and an expansion tank in my AWIC loop. The level in the tank goes up a bit when running and the water gets "hot". It might be overkill, but hasn't caused me any issues, either.

Since the water should never get near boiling my thought is it should be ok without an overflow tank. I'll see how it goes.

[STiPWRD]

Any concern with the lateral forces on the intercooler bracket?

[Hobby Racer]

Any concern with the lateral forces on the intercooler bracket?

A little, but with the H6 being so smooth, the engine does not rock side to side like the H4's do. It literally never moves when you rev it! Plus the close tight connection to the throttle body also adds much stability.

[Frank818]

Are the H6 engine mounts different than H4? Both on the engine side and FFR frame tubing mounts.

[Hobby Racer]

Yes the engine side are different. The FFR side are the same. I used STI mounts for the FFR side and a custom adaptor to connect to the engine. You can see it here in post #24 (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?23199-John-s-EZ36R-H6-818R-Build&p=265927&viewfull=1#post265927).

[Frank818]

Nice stuff. Are those Group N mounts rubber or polyU? And are they really stiff or more on the smooth side, absorbing most of the vibrations?
Or maybe it's just the H6 that is designed to have small primary and secondary imbalances. Either way that is great it runs super smooth.

[Hobby Racer]

Nice stuff. Are those Group N mounts rubber or polyU? And are they really stiff or more on the smooth side, absorbing most of the vibrations?
Or maybe it's just the H6 that is designed to have small primary and secondary imbalances. Either way that is great it runs super smooth.

They are Group N mounts so not really stiff. The H6 has no primary or secondary imbalance and there is only a small tertiary imbalance, plus I balanced the internals to ~ 0.5 gram total bob weight!

[Hobby Racer]

Well everything is back and running with the AWIC and smaller 90 mm supercharger pulley. The bad news is can not find anyone to tune the engine and definitely not before my trip to VIR this month. So I think I'm just going to run a very conservative tune and maybe run 100 octane race gas to stave off any possible knock.

Until I can get it on a dyno and know where the knock threshold is I think it is best to error on the side of caution. This is such a strange and unique setup there is no base map to go from, just have to wing it :rolleyes:

[J R Jones]

John,
Does your ignition and OX sensors give you A:F ratios to identify lean mixture? Tune a bit fat if you are concerned? I assume your max advanced timing is fixed?

[Hobby Racer]

It's an aftermarket ECU so I have full control over timing and A:F ratios. I have twin wide band sensors, one on each bank and have it setup for a slightly rich mixture already. Timing is my big concern. Since this motor is not a run of the mill build I don't have much to go on as far timing advance throughout the rev range.

[J R Jones]

Various engines have a sweet spot for total timing, SBF more than SBC at about 36 degrees. Potential for harm above that.
I do not know what the Subaru wants and the blogs on that are bizarre. I see numbers in the teens up to twenty which could be advance to a base, not total.
Your tuner may have a target, or maybe he will go to knock, then back off. That would concern me with subsequent fuel purchases.
I assume the production advance/retard function is not a part of your ignition.

Knock sensors are routine technology, I wonder if anyone makes a stand-alone sensor/indicator. Hmmm:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/363397066921?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=363397066921&targetid=1265838983971&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1028087&poi=&campaignid=11613469350&mkgroupid=123084563740&rlsatarget=pla-1265838983971&abcId=9300455&merchantid=6426144&gclid=CjwKCAjw2ZaGBhBoEiwA8pfP_m0Z7gsUo2Bq_PJdZQWN _J64iqMG4HAkJcsn9ZpNWgCmYjzMiPRerRoCvXgQAvD_BwE

Something else to monitor at 150MPH.

[Hobby Racer]

Various engines have a sweet spot for total timing, SBF more than SBC at about 36 degrees. Potential for harm above that.
I do not know what the Subaru wants and the blogs on that are bizarre. I see numbers in the teens up to twenty which could be advance to a base, not total.



Nope, that's total timing. In a boosted application if you ran 30+ degrees total you would be picking up pieces of your motor everywhere.



Your tuner may have a target, or maybe he will go to knock, then back off. That would concern me with subsequent fuel purchases.


That's part of the problem, I do not have a tuner :(



I assume the production advance/retard function is not a part of your ignition.


Aftermarket ECU runs everything. Nothing of the stock system remains, plus it would not be applicable since the motor is now supercharged with a different compression ratio.



Knock sensors are routine technology, I wonder if anyone makes a stand-alone sensor/indicator. Hmmm:


I already monitor both stock knock sensors via my aftermarket ECU. Trouble is all knock sensors need to be tuned to the specific knock frequency of each motor configuration, and since mine is no longer stock that frequency is unknown.




Something else to monitor at 150MPH.

Yeah, like there is not enough to do at 150 mph! :D

[Hobby Racer]

Just for fun I scaled the car again after all the upgrades to see how much weight it has gained. Originally as naturally aspirated with a 5 speed it weighed 1970 lbs. Now with the supercharger, AWIC system, and a 6 speed it weighs 2152 lbs. Not bad only 182 lbs weight gain :rolleyes:

Most of that is the 6 speed, those are really heavy.

[Frank818]

This is such a strange and unique setup there is no base map to go from, just have to wing it :rolleyes:

Why can't you use your 110mm pulley map and guesstimate from there, then drive it a bit and see what happens?
That's what I did when I changed displacement, CR, injectors and head, all at once. Worked pretty good on first start, but you gotta know your ECU software.

[Hobby Racer]

Why can't you use your 110mm pulley map and guesstimate from there, then drive it a bit and see what happens?
That's what I did when I changed displacement, CR, injectors and head, all at once. Worked pretty good on first start, but you gotta know your ECU software.

That's what I've done, but still no substitute from real dyno testing. Ignition timing is everything on a forced induction motor. I'm just going to be real conservative until I can get it on a dyno.

[Sgt.Gator]

Just for fun I scaled the car again after all the upgrades to see how much weight it has gained. Originally as naturally aspirated with a 5 speed it weighed 1970 lbs. Now with the supercharger, AWIC system, and a 6 speed it weighs 2152 lbs. Not bad only 182 lbs weight gain :rolleyes:

Most of that is the 6 speed, those are really heavy.

Posted to the Weights thread. If you scale it let's add your corner weights too. Thanks.

[Frank818]

That's what I've done, but still no substitute from real dyno testing. Ignition timing is everything on a forced induction motor. I'm just going to be real conservative until I can get it on a dyno.

Oops for some weird reason I was thinking you were referring more to A/F tuning. A lot easier to do, but still not peanuts. loll I guess there aren't a lot of supercharged 3.6 on the web, let alone those who discuss their timing map, I understand how difficult it would be to have a start and you probably have nothing at all to refer to. :(

Let's hope you get it to the dyno sooner than later and yes, very conservative is the best to do, as 1 lousy degree too many could cost all internals.

[Sgt.Gator]

The guy to help you is Jeff Sponaugle. He is a member of this forum and was building an 818 but hasn't been active here for ages (since 2016 I think). He built the original EZ30 turbo back in 2008, documented in this NASIOC thread: https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1437246
and partly covered in his intro post to the FF forum here:https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?9816-My-WRX-Donor-car-with-EZ30R-6-cylinder-)&highlight=sponaugle

He started the first Subaru focused dyno tuning shop in Portland that was eventually bought by Cobb.
If there's anyone that help you get it tuned, it's him. If he's not paying attention to PMs here or on NASIOC you might give LinkedIn a try.

[Jetfuel]

Hobby. You can also try and state your case with Corbin Johnson at Johnson tuning
https://johnsontuning.com/

Jet

[Bob_n_Cincy]

The guy to help you is Jeff Sponaugle. He is a member of this forum and was building an 818 but hasn't been active here for ages (since 2016 I think). He built the original EZ30 turbo back in 2008, documented in this NASIOC thread: https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1437246
and partly covered in his intro post to the FF forum here:https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?9816-My-WRX-Donor-car-with-EZ30R-6-cylinder-)&highlight=sponaugle

He started the first Subaru focused dyno tuning shop in Portland that was eventually bought by Cobb.
If there's anyone that help you get it tuned, it's him. If he's not paying attention to PMs here or on NASIOC you might give LinkedIn a try.

Jeff is active every day on facebook. you can find him there.
here is picture of his home workshop. the 818 is in the corner.
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[Hobby Racer]

Started the car with the smaller 90 mm supercharger pulley today and heard this strange noise. After running up to temperature and not finding anything out of the ordinary, I started looking over thing with a flashlight. I found small black specs around the engine pulleys. Turns out the belt was contacting the supercharger support bracket and slowly machining a groove into it!

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=149534&d=1623793211

After removing the interior so I could access the belt (glad I cut that access hole) I removed the supercharger and bracket. A few minutes with a round file and I now have enough clearance so the belt does not rub.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=149535&d=1623793211

Apparently the 90 mm pulley draws up slightly closer to the supercharger than the 110 mm pulley and caused the clearance issue.

Aren't race cars fun :rolleyes:

[Rob T]

Better to find it in the garage and not on the track....

[Hobby Racer]

Got an appointment with a local tuner who does a lot of Porsche stuff. Unfortunately its for July 1, after VIR. But at least its getting done!

[Hobby Racer]

Had to add an air bleed valve to the intercooler to get all the air out of the AWIC system. I tried a valve made for hot water heaters and it stripped out the threads in a test piece I tapped first. I ended up using a brake bleed screw from a set of Wilwood calipers I had laying around, worked great.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=149610&d=1623978791

[Frank818]

That's a very nice idea! I had to lift the front of the car and lower the rear as much as possible when I bleeded my system. My water tank is up front and it's a little lower than the cooler in the back.

Is the valve 1/8 NPT? Not sure what caliper valves are.

[Frank818]

On a different note, what conservative total timing will you be running with your 90mm pulley at VIR?
Compared to the timing you had with 110mm.

[Hobby Racer]

Is the valve 1/8 NPT? Not sure what caliper valves are.

Yes, it's 1/8 NPT.


On a different note, what conservative total timing will you be running with your 90mm pulley at VIR?
Compared to the timing you had with 110mm.

The timing is a 3D map, variable by both RPM and MAP (boost). But to give a simple answer, at 5500 RPM and max boost I'll be running ~15 degrees. The lower redline combined with 100 octane fuel should keep me safe until I can dyno it.

[Frank818]

Yeah I use 3D maps as well. 100 octane will definitely keep your mind unstressed. If that 15deg is around 10psi or so. Not sure how 3.6 timing can compare to my VR6 though, but I'm sure despite the safer timing it'll make enough power for you to notice the boost difference! :)

[Hobby Racer]

I finally got around to cutting holes in the side pods so I can use the jacking pockets I installed earlier this year. Should make tire / brake changes at the track much easier.

I was really putting this off as I did not want to cut big square holes in the side pods. I finally had to get over myself and go for it, its only a race car after all.

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[Hobby Racer]

Well I changed my mind again. I thought I would run the 90 mm supercharger pulley at VIR but have decided to split the difference and go with a 100 mm pulley. Now I have a 90, 100, & 110 mm pulleys. I guess I'll be able to tailor my max boost at the dyno more precisely.

[Frank818]

I finally got around to cutting holes in the side pods so I can use the jacking pockets I installed earlier this year. Should make tire / brake changes at the track much easier.

I was really putting this off as I did not want to cut big square holes in the side pods. I finally had to get over myself and go for it, its only a race car after all.

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You copied that from Porsche. :) But all the credits go to you for the implementation, does it work well and quick?

[Hobby Racer]

You copied that from Porsche. :) But all the credits go to you for the implementation, does it work well and quick?

I actually copied it from Gator, who copied it from another post here on the forum.

It does work great, lifts both front and rear tires on the car simultaneously for easy tire / brake changes.

[Sgt.Gator]

I actually copied it from Gator, who copied it from another post here on the forum.

It does work great, lifts both front and rear tires on the car simultaneously for easy tire / brake changes.

I got it from Retro Racing's 818R (who's build is on the forum, but they haven't posted much lately. They are stuck in BC and not racing for 2 years now because of the Wuhan Virus). . I was on their crew for the Cascade Enduro where we used their version.
Works great!

[Hobby Racer]

If you followed the Let's all meet at the track! (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?38232-Let-s-all-meet-at-the-track!&p=460933&viewfull=1#post460933) thread, you know that I was not able to complete the first day and left early the second day. I was having issues with the transmission not shifting into 5th and by the end it would not go into reverse or stay in 4th.

Luckily I did some troubleshooting before yanking the transmission and tearing it apart. Turns out the transmission is fine. All my issues were caused by two things, 1) my rear shift linkage and 2) the Subaru internal reverse lockout mechanism. Both of which could be fixed without removing the transmission. :cool:

First off the reverse lockout mechanism: Turns out the tab on the cylindrical spring that locks it in place had somehow jumped out of its locating slot. That allowed the mechanism to float around. When I tried to shift into fifth, the gate for reverse was partly open and I would push the shift lever over too far, preventing me from selecting 5th gear. Conversely when trying to get into reverse it would not fully engage because the gate was only partly open.

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Next the shift linkage itself: When pushing and pulling the linkage from the rear of the car I noticed that it would bind slightly when going into 5th and reverse. I never noticed this when I first fabricated it because when sitting in the car and shifting you can not see the linkage and it always seemed to go into gear. Also my reverse lockout linkage hit the shift arm when trying for 5th. It really does help to have an extra set of eye's and hands when working on these cars!

Anyway, I machined off some material here and there until there is no bind anymore and fabricated a totally different reverse lockout linkage.

Instead of using a lever to twist the lockout shaft I went with a simple cylinder that I could wind my reverse lockout cable around to twist the lockout shaft. This proved to be much more compact and efficient than the complex lever I had before.

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I was able to drill a tiny hole in the main shift linkage support to run the cable through. It hides everything really nicely.

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Here is the final shift linkage and new reverse lockout linkage. Looks nice and clean.

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[Rob T]

John: Glad to hear the problems were "simple". Much better than a trashed trans. How do you control the cable feed to the reverse lockout? If I remember correctly, there are multiple (at least 2) parts of the rotation where shifting to reverse is either blocked or enabled. I solved that problem with mechanical stops on the linkage. I'm curious how you did it.

[Hobby Racer]

John: Glad to hear the problems were "simple". Much better than a trashed trans. How do you control the cable feed to the reverse lockout? If I remember correctly, there are multiple (at least 2) parts of the rotation where shifting to reverse is either blocked or enabled. I solved that problem with mechanical stops on the linkage. I'm curious how you did it.

There are 2 notches in the rotation that allow reverse to be selected. They are very close to one another. One is the main notch and the other is an emergency notch that allows reverse to be selected if the factory cable snaps so you can still get to reverse until the cable can be fixed.

I setup my system so when the lever that pulls the cable is fully depressed, the main notch lines up to allow reverse to be selected. When you let go of the lever the tension in the return spring pulls the lever back up and moves the reverse notches out of alignment about a quarter turn. This way no stops are needed, so long as the spring does not break or jump out of its locking slot again.

[J R Jones]

John, This is obviously unique to the six speed, I have not seen this hardware before. Confusing for me.
The torsion spring is around the shaft in the housing?
The "notches" are internal?
The drum outside and cable retention screw are OEM parts? I would have expected this to be a throttle-like sector with a cable groove and fixed cable end, and cable/case adjustment.
I was interested in the performance of a six speed, not so much now.
Mike noted not using 5th at VIR, were you able to pull 6th?

Did the AWIC deliver the IAT that you sought? How much better was it compared to the air cooled configuration?

[Hobby Racer]

John, This is obviously unique to the six speed, I have not seen this hardware before. Confusing for me.
The torsion spring is around the shaft in the housing?
The "notches" are internal?
The drum outside and cable retention screw are OEM parts? I would have expected this to be a throttle-like sector with a cable groove and fixed cable end, and cable/case adjustment.

Yes, the tension spring is wound around the shaft and is internal to the housing. The notches are also internal. The drum and all external parts are things I fabricated. The OEM setup uses a lever that pulls from the rear and does not work well for the 818 configuration, so everyone just makes their own setup.

Here you can see the internal mechanism. Red arrows show the two notches and the blue shows the spring coiled around the shaft.

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This shows the OEM lever setup and the red arrow shows the direction it pulls. Generally in an 818 there is no room behind the trans to make the OEM setup work.

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I was interested in the performance of a six speed, not so much now.


The 6 speeds are excellent transmissions. Very robust and can handle way more torque than the 5 speeds. All the shifting issues I have had are completely my fault, not anything inherently wrong with the 6 speed design. The ring gear bolts loosening up was concerning but after some research I found its not uncommon in stock diffs used for racing.



Mike noted not using 5th at VIR, were you able to pull 6th?
Did the AWIC deliver the IAT that you sought? How much better was it compared to the air cooled configuration?


Mike has a 5 speed, not a 6 speed. Without being able to ramp up through 5th, 6th just did not pull on the back straight at VIR. It didn't help that the end of the straight is up hill.

The AWIC kept intake temps about 15 degrees above ambient. Really good I thought, but I have not been able to really flog it to see if it heat soaks yet. Next track day I hope to have transmission issues behind me so I can really focus on the motor and driving.

Like all race cars, these are an experiment in progress :rolleyes:
We will get them to a fun & reliable point, but we have to work through the issues that come up when pushing things to find their limits.

[mikeb75]

quick note: Like John said - I have a 5 speed and an 8200 RPM redline; 5th gear is so overdriven it was useless for me, was only hitting 7000 RPM at the end of the back straight in 4th - so I had some headroom. But the 6 speed is a superior unit. If I go up significantly in TQ, I will probably need to upgrade.

[DSR-3]

Hey Hobby- let's hear about that blower! :)

[Hobby Racer]

Hey Hobby- let's hear about that blower! :)

It makes a nice woooosh sound when shifting as the blow off valve opens :o

I haven't really been able to concentrate on the engine since I've been dealing with transmission issues. Hopefully those issues are behind me (no pun intended) and I can focus on the engine. I'll post dyno results soon. I hope to get it in at the same shop roadrashrob is using. They seem to be Subaru and MegaSquirt enthusiasts. I'm going to talk with them next week.

[Hobby Racer]

I was tracking down some irregularities in my engine logs and stumbled onto some videos outlining fake NGK spark plugs that are being sold on Amazon and e-Bay. I purchased my plugs through e-Bay and thought to myself...hmmm... better check.

Well, turns out mine are fakes. It's amazing how good these fakes are. Externally you would be hard pressed to tell the fakes from the real ones (I guess that's the point). Anyway, the real test is to break one open and look at the electrode that runs through the plug body. The real NGK's are copper and the fakes are steel.

Live and learn, shopping for the best online price is not always the best option :mad:

Just thought I'd put this out there in case anyone else is shopping for plugs.

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[Frank818]

I heard about that recently too, I think also Denso is suffering this problem, they show pix on their website of real ones and fakes. Saw that somewhere.

We really need to be careful or possibly buy 1-2 plugs too many and break one out to check before using them.

Glad you found out early in the process!

[Hobby Racer]

Now its officially a "Race Car" because it has stickers on it! I've been wanting to do this for a while now and finally found a web site that was cheap and lets you design your own graphic.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152071&d=1628956036

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152072&d=1628956036

[jforand]

Looks great!! What's the website?

[Hobby Racer]

Looks great!! What's the website?

Race Car Number Kits (https://racegraphics.com/number-kits/)

[Mitch Wright]

How did your Dyno sessions go??

[Hobby Racer]

How did your Dyno sessions go??

Still trying to get it done! The guys I thought were going to help are ghosting me :mad:

So I'm at the track now tuning by the seat of my pants! Hope it doesn't go badly :D

[roadrashrob]

Still trying to get it done! The guys I thought were going to help are ghosting me :mad:

So I'm at the track now tuning by the seat of my pants! Hope it doesn't go badly :D

Is it DDA Tuned in Newburgh you are still trying to get in touch with? Did you tell him it's an FFR 818? I had mentioned you'd be reaching out, and he was excited to do it. I know from his Instagram feed he's been slammed. PM me your details if you want me to reach out and remind him to get back to you.

[Hobby Racer]

Is it DDA Tuned in Newburgh you are still trying to get in touch with? Did you tell him it's an FFR 818? I had mentioned you'd be reaching out, and he was excited to do it. I know from his Instagram feed he's been slammed. PM me your details if you want me to reach out and remind him to get back to you.

Yes its DDA Tuned. I spoke with Seven directly and then again a week later with someone else as he was out at the time, plus two emails and nothing. I did find out that the guy who does their tuning has some kind of family thing going on so that may be the issue. But really I expected at least a call back to let me know.

I'm going to try him back at the end of the week (I'm at the track now) and hopefully can find out whats going on. If I can't get anywhere I'll let you know.

[Hobby Racer]

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152576&d=1629759704

Transmission is shifting great now. I'm getting the fueling sorted out, it was way rich. I've cut fueling back three times and its near where it needs to be now. Tomorrow should be a good day!

[Hobby Racer]

Day two at the glen was going great. Car was running well and making good power. But shortly into my 3rd session for the day the car shut down on track, requiring a tow back to the pits. It was definitely something internal to the engine so I packed it in and went home. In this short video you can hear the problem start at around 33 seconds, just after I came off the throttle on the back straight.


https://youtu.be/AP55_J28vBk

After removing the engine and transmission I found that the driver side cam chain jumped off the gears. I have to do some serious looking around with the borescope tomorrow, but I think I dodged a bullet. The only damage appears to be a cam sprocket and tensioner, plus some minor gouges in the aluminum case from the chain whipping around. Since this is an interference engine there could be some serious valve to piston damage. Initial looks seem to indicate no valve to piston collisions but I'll know more tomorrow.

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[Rob T]

Bummer. Sorry to hear that John. Hoping for the best....

[Frank818]

Jesus you are quick at removing an engine! Or maybe it's me who's super darn slow... on top of that, your engine bay is as clean as when it comes out from FFR! How on Earth do you do that, no wires at all.


I feel you big time, reminds me of my chain jumping on one cam, had same symptoms! But it did a high pitch PIIINNNGGGGG when it started and then all went wrong. Bent valve. Lucky that didn't happen to you. Maybe your cam bolt loosen up for some reason?

[Sgt.Gator]

Sorry to see this. I'll be amazed if you don't have bent valves.

[Hobby Racer]

Sorry to see this. I'll be amazed if you don't have bent valves.

Here is a pic of the #2 piston from my cheap HF borescope. You can see two shiny contact points on the exhaust side. All the left side pistons look the same (#2 is the worst). The intake valves do not appear to have contacted the piston that I can see. I think I may have gotten extremely lucky. I do not think this is bad enough to have bent any of the exhaust valves.

The only way to know without pulling the head (which required an entire tear down on the EZ36) is to put the new chain and gears on when they come in and do a compression / leak down test. That is what I think I'm going to do. Now just waiting for parts. :p

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152735&d=1630006936

The nagging question in the back of my mind is what caused it to jump in the first place? I ordered all new guides just in cause one was slightly bent or twisted, causing the chain to not run true.

[J R Jones]

It has been several years since I had the cam chains off our Tribeca H6. It seems the guide shoes would be visibly intact or not, but, the hydraulic tensioners function dynamically requiring oil pressure. Even if they are mechanically OK it is hard to know if they lacked pressure long enough to collapse. You would have noticed if the pressure dropped. Is that data in your logger?

You could consider loosening the cam pillow blocks and do cylinder leak-downs while parts are in transit.
That photo is ominous.
jim

[Hobby Racer]

Even if they are mechanically OK it is hard to know if they lacked pressure long enough to collapse. You would have noticed if the pressure dropped. Is that data in your logger?


I log everything, including oil pressure. It never dropped during the hole event so I don't think they collapsed. I'm more inclined to think the guide / shoe was twisted or bent slightly, derailing the chain at high RPM's when there was a bit of slack from letting off the throttle.

A leak down test while waiting for parts is a good idea.

[J R Jones]

Chain design 101 says the pull (tension) side of the chain is the straight run; the push side of the chain can have the "belly" or slack, and that is where the tensioner is located.
It is not analogous to a bicycle where the pedal sprocket loads the chain during acceleration and the rear wheel loads the chain on deceleration.
The crankshaft rotating mass always pulls the chain. The cams (at half speed) never have inertia to push or pull the chains. The crank always provides tension, just more or less.
The oil pressure will provide more or less tensioning on the slack side. As you know there is a coil spring in the tensioner and oil pressure is a boost.
My theory is the chain is pulled and pushed hardest on acceleration.
If the chain has any chance of walking laterally off the sprocket teeth, it will be on the slack side.
jim

[Hobby Racer]

If the chain has any chance of walking laterally off the sprocket teeth, it will be on the slack side.
jim

And that is where I think it walked off, on the slack side guide / shoe tensioner.

[J R Jones]

Obviously you will evaluate runout on all the sprockets.
What are you thinking about the guide shoe displacement? Chicken or egg? I lean towards the shoe came off the guide and the chain became unstable.
Is that riveted and/or bonded?
jim

[Hobby Racer]

Obviously you will evaluate runout on all the sprockets.
What are you thinking about the guide shoe displacement? Chicken or egg? I lean towards the shoe came off the guide and the chain became unstable.
Is that riveted and/or bonded?
jim

It's really hard to nail down what actually happened in these situations. I tend to agree with you that the guide was the cause. The shoe is only "snapped" into place with no mechanical fastening. The shoe was off the guide when I disassembled everything but its hard to say if it came off first or was pulled off after the chain derailed.

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[Sgt.Gator]

There are posts on the LGT forum about the idler pulley bolts loosening being a known issue. But that seems to cause a lot of noise and I can't find any reports of it causing a failure like this.
If you replaced the tensioner with a Gates those are known to fail in the EJ series. Gates switched a few years ago to a Chinese supplier and the failures started. Now we only trust OEM Subaru or Aisin tensioners.

Is it possible the chain has stretched beyond the capacity of the tensioner to take up the slack? I don't know what the spec is on the chain stretch limit.

I did find this on a Subaru Parts Website:
Part Number: 13143AA081
Supersession(s): 13143AA080
Engine Timing Chain.
Fits Outback (2010 - 2019)

Timing Chain
Your engine's timing chain can stretch over time resulting in a check engine light that comes along with excessive noise from your engine's timing cover. If the chain has broken, which is a rare occurrence, the engine will not start. If your Subaru Outback has high mileage along with any of these other symptoms, contact our service department for expert diagnosis.

https://parts.classicsubaruofatlanta.com/p/Subaru__Outback/Engine-Timing-Chain-Engine-Timing-Chain/49225043/13143AA081.html

[J R Jones]

John,
That design/assembly type is dependent on running dimensions and tolerances retaining the parts together. The shoe will not come off the guide as long as the guide is in place and the chain tension is maintained.
Of course a mechanical failure resulting in a stray part or debris could impact the shoe or loft the chain off of the sprocket teeth.
My preferred theory is a failure to maintain chain tension, FWIW.
Is that tensioner oil galley intact, leaking or obstructed?

Long ago I built a 421 Pontiac from a basket of (purchased) reconditioned parts. Late at night, I fired it up the first time, the left bank of hydraulic lifters were fine, the right bank was noisy.
Out came the engine, the oil pan, pick-up and pump came off, and looked fine. Desperate to trace the oil distribution I bought a pack of cigarettes and blew smoke into the oil pump mount.
A wisp of smoke appeared from the back of the block, and a vertical chamber inside the back of the block. At the top of the chamber, in line with the right lifter galley was a threaded hole where smoke came out.
On the outer wall in line with the threaded hole was a welch plug. The welch plug was removed, a NPT plug installed to the end of the oil galley and a new welch plug installed. Subsequently the engine ran fine, and powered my tow car.
jim

[Hobby Racer]

There are posts on the LGT forum about the idler pulley bolts loosening being a known issue.

There are no idler pulleys, only a single idler gear that attaches to the oil pump. It was tight when I took it off.



If you replaced the tensioner with a Gates those are known to fail in the EJ series. Gates switched a few years ago to a Chinese supplier and the failures started. Now we only trust OEM Subaru or Aisin tensioners.


I'm going with all new OEM Subaru parts, including the chain you mentioned. The aftermarket parts for this engine seem to be of dubious quality, I stick with OEM. I ended up ordering the engine idler gear (oil pump gear), the LH intake cam gear and VVT mechanism, the chain and all guides on the left side. The only things I'm reusing are the LH exhaust gear and VVT mechanism, as it looks perfect, and some of the bolts.

[Hobby Racer]

Well the leak down test confirms that there are definitely bent or stuck valves. :mad:

Now I will begin the the not so fun task of tearing it down. On the plus side, the short block is not damaged and that is were I spent the most money on this engine build.

[Frank818]

Darn it! :( That sucks, was predictable like Gator said, but I know how it sucks! Hope there are no other important damages, like a notch in the head and stuff like that.

[Hobby Racer]

First the carnage. This is the valve that is bent the most, intake on cylinder #2. All the intake valves are bent sightly. The exhaust valves look OK but I'm going to replace them all just to be sure (they're inexpensive ~$14 each). I'm just glad none of them broke off and trashed the entire engine.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152867&d=1630353736

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Now for the root cause and the the long time mystery. Those that have been following my build may recall this picture that I posted back in January 2020 post #654 (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?23199-John-s-EZ36R-H6-818R-Build&p=396204&viewfull=1#post396204) 152868. It was a mystery part that I found in my oil pan and was asking if anyone knew what it was. Well now I know. When taking the pan off for this rebuild another one dropped out! I thought to myself, I really need to track this down immediately. Come to find out it's a pressure relief valve that screws into the hydraulic tensioners. There are 3 in this car, 2 of which were now OUT! These relief valves keep the hydraulic pressure in the tensioner from bleeding off too quickly when there is a drop in oil pressure. Without the valve in place the only thing holding tension on the chain is the weak mechanical spring in the tensioner. Here is a picture showing two of the tensioners side by side, one with the valve in and one with it out sitting on the tensioner.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152876&d=1630354735

This failure was destined to happen sooner or later since I was already missing one relief valve and then another just dropped out. These are going back in with Loctite Red and maybe I'll even peen over the threads. Trouble is I misplaced the first relief valve since it was so long ago and you can not order just the relief valve, you need to order the entire tensioner :mad:

I'm glad to have found the root cause as I would have reassembled the engine just to have it fail again and possibly do even more damage. The head, block and pistons look great. After some clean up they will be right as rain. Time to go and order some more parts.

Update: I found the old missing relief valve! Sometimes it's good to be a pack rat.

[fletch]

I remember that old post and loose part. Glad you found the root cause. Learning some of this stuff just hurts more than it should. Sorry for your troubles.

[Sgt.Gator]

That's great that you figured it out. I have to say I'm not sure you are at the root cause yet. The question being, why are they falling out? I've searched the Legacy forum and other Subaru H6 forums and have yet to find a single instance of this failure. Tensioner bolt failures (coming unscrewed) but not the valve falling out.
Having one fall out appears to be a one in a million, but now you have had two fall out, that can't be just bad luck! Whatever caused them to unscrew may manifest itself in some other part failure. Other than some weird harmonic/vibration I haven't got a clue though.

[Frank818]

Man John you rock! You got the engine out in 5mins and found the issue 10mins later. I should really hire you (high lump sump expected).

On the other side Gator's point is really interesting and should get anyone thinking! I guess he's right (yet again) that you still got some digging to do. This will be very interesting to follow, I love to learn from super weird impossible issues.

[Hobby Racer]

The question being, why are they falling out? I've searched the Legacy forum and other Subaru H6 forums and have yet to find a single instance of this failure. Tensioner bolt failures (coming unscrewed) but not the valve falling out.

I think it might have something to do with the vibrations / harmonics. As far as I know I am the only one racing this engine, there are bound to be issues that are not common to most other street applications. Like any new racing program you just move on to the next weakest link, fix it and repeat. :rolleyes:

Remember I also had ALL the ring gear bolts back out in my 6 speed. I never heard of that happening either!

[Sgt.Gator]

Remember I also had ALL the ring gear bolts back out in my 6 speed. I never heard of that happening either!
Good point, I forgot about that. That was another one in a million odd failure.

Are you running solid motor and trans mounts? Cindi Lux's husband, Fred, who is the mechanic on her pro Trans Am car, once warned me not to use solid motor mounts because they would cause all kinds of weird failures. Everything from parts coming unscrewed to electronic sensors failing that never ever fail on a non solid motor mount car.

We do appreciate you being the pioneer!

[Hobby Racer]

Are you running solid motor and trans mounts? Cindi Lux's husband, Fred, who is the mechanic on her pro Trans Am car, once warned me not to use solid motor mounts because they would cause all kinds of weird failures. Everything from parts coming unscrewed to electronic sensors failing that never ever fail on a non solid motor mount car.

We do appreciate you being the pioneer!

No solid mounts. I use STI Group N motor mounts and a custom trans mount using poly bushings so that shouldn't be an issue.

[Hobby Racer]

The red arrow shows where I tried to drill through the tensioner and relief valve head so I could secure them with safety wire. The relief valves, or at least the cap screw heads, must be hardened as my cobalt drill bits were barely able to scratch them so I ended up putting them in with Loctite Red and then staked them in four places each to prevent them from backing out.

Hope that does the trick :rolleyes:


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=153039&d=1630868864

[Frank818]

That's great stuff man, hope it will keep them in place.

Hard to tell on the pic but does the pinning allows you to keep track of any loosening, like when we mark a bolt or nut to see if it moved from its original location after a while?

[Hobby Racer]

That's great stuff man, hope it will keep them in place.

Hard to tell on the pic but does the pinning allows you to keep track of any loosening, like when we mark a bolt or nut to see if it moved from its original location after a while?

You could but it would require the engine be removed and the front cover taken off, its a huge job on the H6 motors.

[Frank818]

Ok I understand, very inconvenient I agree. Basically the way you can "follow-up" on this is on your next oil change... :(

Next time you race the car will you fear those valves or will your brain be powerful enough to not think about them? Mine would think about it all the time until I race a couple of times without finding a valve in the oil pan... not a most pleasant kind of issue one would have.

[Hobby Racer]

Next time you race the car will you fear those valves or will your brain be powerful enough to not think about them? Mine would think about it all the time until I race a couple of times without finding a valve in the oil pan... not a most pleasant kind of issue one would have.

I will be distracted during the first session for sure. After 20 minutes its either going to break or be good; in my mind anyway. :p

Either way we will find out on 9/22 as I'm do back at Watkins Glen!

[aquillen]

If those come out now I'd bet Loctite/Henkel corp would love to see them.

[Hobby Racer]

You know, I bet a bunch of those pressure relief valves have backed out on factory Tribeca's, Legacy's and Outback's and people are none the wiser. You hear a lot of complaints about noisy valve trains and clickity clakety noises on higher mileage H6's and people attribute it to stretched chains and the like. But I'll bet if they did a tear down a fair number of those valves have backed out. In the low stress, low rpm world of daily driving it most likely would never cause a failure, just makes noise.

Food for thought.