Hindsight's build thread [Archive] - Page 7

Frank818

09-25-2017, 05:36 AM

Ok now it makes sense!
If we assume Jeff's 818 is a standard OEM-liked finished 818 turbo, then a "makes sense" weight for such a car would be about 2100lbs without driver. Jeff was in the car at 2300.

2100 is perfectly inline with my car as it is OEM finished, turbo, AWIC and the assumed gained weight of the VR6 and G50 box is about 200-250lbs more than you guys.

Jeff I think your weight (818's) makes much more sense now!

Hindsight

09-25-2017, 09:05 AM

Gator, I think you are right about other weights... most of them are not fully completed cars.

Also, I have a full tank of gas, full fluids (including all the stuff for the oil cooler). The AWIC is full of water, using 3/4" hoses, and my remote oil cooler with hoses is also full of oil.

Another thought is the exhaust manifold. Mine is stock. Guessing some are running headers which are somewhat lighter. Also full size battery.

Some thoughts on R vs S is that the S windshield adds a lot of weight. Not sure if it's more than the added frame structure on the R though. I have all the R aero except the diffuser and rear wing which I don't think add that much weight. Maybe 10-20 lbs?

Would really like to see more weights that are all-up, with driver in the car, all fluids in, ready to hit the track. Guessing most of these weights would come up quite a bit.

phil1734

09-25-2017, 09:43 AM

According to the FFR press materials circa 2013, the S was actually lighter than the R. I expect their S was never as refined as builds are.

I'd bet the windshield and additional tubes just about cancel each other out. Doors probably cancel with the side impact structure. No passenger seat, a lighter race seat, and the lack of interior and wheel well aluminum are probably the biggest savers. If I ever built another 818 i'd try and bribe my way into getting most of the aluminum cut from .032 and see if they'd let me do a "research project" and layup my own body work out of carbon. I bet I could cut 80lbs out of the car at next to no cost.

Hindsight

09-25-2017, 01:53 PM

Good points Phil. The only thing I'd question is splash guard weight. It can't weight that much I don't think (but I DO agree that if you combined ALL the sheet aluminum including interior frame panels - it adds up quite fast and going thinner would absolutely save measurable weight). My seat weighs 17lbs - probably on-par with most light race seats. Lack of a second seat would save another 17lbs - 20 if you include the aluminum brackets. I probably added 5-10lbs with my firewall. FFR padded door panels probably add 10 lbs. but honestly beyond those items, there isn't much interior to my car. What little carpet I have in there can only weigh 2lbs... it's VERY light.

Oh yeah, I did build a bigger roll bar - probably 5 extra pounds there.

I'm just going to say that FFR built my frame extra strong with heavy welds and extra thick tubing. That way I'm not to blame.

flynntuna

09-25-2017, 02:07 PM

Ok, is that the "I've got big bones " excuse? ;) or did they fill your frame with sand before welding it up? Lol

Hindsight

09-25-2017, 02:11 PM

It's a thyroid issue ;)

RM1SepEx

09-25-2017, 06:13 PM

My completed S with fully upholstered interior, full fat mat sound deadening, wood veneer dash, center console and door inserts, arm rest with storage, stereo, AAIC side mounted with fan and ducting , FFR CF splitter, diffuser, sill extensions and tail spoiler, stock WRX seat 2.0 turbo, 3 in exhaust with cat and muffler, carpeted custom aluminum trunk, custom front inner fenders, side vent scoops, craig's hinges for the hood and trunk, craigs large louvers for the hood and his trunk louver between the humps come in at 1923 with 10 gallons of gas. I have RFP1's 17 inch all around (forgot has front grill too ;-)

Hindsight

09-27-2017, 07:33 PM

After doing a lot of thinking and getting a lot of really great advice from Mitch, I decided to leave the front bar alone for now and go with softer rear springs. I now have a set of 400# Eibach springs waiting to replace the current 500# rears. Ultimately I chose to go this way because I think 500# is a bit heavy for this light car and my not having a rear wing. For example, comparing it to the Porsche Cayman guys who run 300/400 or 400/500 on a much heavier car with similar motion ratios. And more importantly, based on driving observations: It still doesn't understeer at all during corner entry when not trail braking, it's not quite neutral mid-corner, and I can't apply as much throttle as I feel I should be able to mid corner to corner exit because the back-end will come around.

If you watch my last video where I'm tailgating the black 911 trying to get him to give me a point-by, you might notice he is able to get on the gas earlier and harder than I am in the corners. It's most noticeable when we go around turns 10a and 10b.

There are a handful of fall track days coming up in October/November so if I have the time, I'll get these springs in and try them out at the track before the year ends.

Frank818

09-27-2017, 07:47 PM

Are you sure comparing a rear-engined Porsche to a mid-engined kit-car is a good comparison? If so, why?
Where did you get the info the motion ratio of a Cayman is pretty much the same as the 818?

Hindsight

09-27-2017, 08:02 PM

Hey Frank, a friend sent me some numbers.... .8-something for the Cayman. I found a forum where someone mentioned something similar but after you mentioned it, I googled it again and it looks like maybe that might not be right. Looks as though it's about 1:1. Even at 1:1, it's still close to 1,000lbs heavier than the 818. But in the end, I just used that as one of several data points - the main data point being how the car feels on the track.

I hear what you are saying about rear engine vs mid - the rear should have better grip, but it isn't just the 911 I've noticed this with. I'm very frequently slower to accelerate out of corners than other cars (even ones that are a lot slower than me) and I know I'm giving up a time because the rear tires aren't getting enough grip. The softer springs will help that.

Frank818

09-27-2017, 08:21 PM

I'm very frequently slower to accelerate out of corners than other cars (even ones that are a lot slower than me) and I know I'm giving up a time because the rear tires aren't getting enough grip. The softer springs will help that.

Very very interested to see your tests on this!

DanielsDM

09-27-2017, 11:56 PM

Hindsight, are you still running the front splitter? If you are it seems like the balance issue could be aero, front downforce from the splitter but no wing to balance it out.

Hindsight

09-28-2017, 07:02 AM

Hindsight, are you still running the front splitter? If you are it seems like the balance issue could be aero, front downforce from the splitter but no wing to balance it out.

Yes I am and it's definitely a possibility, but I believe I heard from Wayne that the FFR front splitter only adds about 40 lbs of down force at high speeds. If the spring change isn't enough, I might play with adjusting to be shorter.

Hindsight

09-29-2017, 10:28 AM

Some more pics from the track day last weekend at Road Atlanta.

Yes, I was passing this GT3 RS. But he later passed me at like 150mph on the back straight.
https://i.imgur.com/r4GHHT8h.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qiLgIOnh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GlXZGzbh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/aqOJOilh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yP0a4rTh.jpg

Frank818

09-29-2017, 02:09 PM

Nice pix there. How's your front splitter doing?

Hindsight

09-29-2017, 03:14 PM

Thanks Frank. Front splitter is holding up great. Can't really tell how much of a difference it makes on down-force since I have no great way of testing it other than seeing if the car behaves differently in low vs high speed corners but the tracks I race at are all high speed. The slowest I think I get at Road Atlanta is like 70mph.

RetroRacing

09-29-2017, 05:01 PM

Hindsight

09-29-2017, 07:03 PM

Wow, sounds like you were really hauling! Yes, ducting will make a HUGE difference in your temps, and lap times, by both forcing air through the rad and smoothing the flow our the holes in the hood, and not just hitting the bulkhead.
Your brake fade is weird, I know it sounds crazy, but check and make sure your brake rotors are on the right sides of the car (assuming they are directional). If they are not directional, get some directional front rotors. You also might not have enough rear bias in the car, this car loves rear brakes!!

Softening the rear springs by 50lbs is the best way to tune in my opinion, you aren't adding weight to the car, your promoting rear grip (which is going to help you get out of the corners and in transition) and you can then start tuning shocks once the basic handling is sorted.

Good luck!

Thanks Retro. My brake rotors are plain vented - no slots or holes. I definitely don't have enough rear bias, but unfortunately there is no easy way to get it with my setup. I had proportion valves on the front that allowed me to dial DOWN the front some, but the increased pedal effort was just too much and those style bias valves aren't that great anyway; they only slow down the pressure to the caliper - in the end the pressure equalizes. The only way to do it right IMHO is dual master cylinders with a balance bar like the Wilwood setup. One day I may re-do my whole braking setup but not now.

JB91710

12-08-2017, 10:17 AM

Here is the final rear shift linkage after cleaning it up and cutting off the bits I didn't need. Have the new custom length cables on it as well. They look a little different than others I have seen, but they work great and have nearly no slop. The length was perfect too. 79" on one and 81" on the other. Can't wait to test drive it and see what it feels like while the gears and synchros are turning. I got high-temp cable housings but also wrapped the cables in heat sleeving as well for added protection.
http://i.imgur.com/chQwVIxh.jpg (http://imgur.com/chQwVIx)

Here is the exhaust. I just need to add a bend or two and a short pipe dumping the exhaust out the bottom via hidden tip, and add a wide-band bung to the bellmouth. Hoping for go-kart this weekend.
http://i.imgur.com/F8ec9tTh.jpg (http://imgur.com/F8ec9tT)

Are you making shift linkage pieces? I don't need mounting brackets I just need the arm on the shaft and hardware, bell crank and the rod from the crank to the arm. I have the cable rod ends.

77601, 77602

Hindsight

12-08-2017, 10:51 AM

Hi, I'm not making them. Mechie is making them though. They are specific to the 5-speed, if I recall correctly. You might be able to use them on your setup.

For mine, I just ordered some 1/2" thick aluminum plate from eBay, then cut it out on a table saw, and with a cordless jigsaw (where I couldn't use the tablesaw). All using wood blades which work fine on aluminum. I then used a belt/disc sander to round the adges and smooth things out, then hand sanded with increasing grits of sandpaper to finish off. Drilled and tapped the holes as needed. It was all just like woodworking really.

Hindsight

12-17-2017, 08:32 PM

Haven't been working on the car at all lately due to other priorities. Still have the 400# springs I need to install. Probably going to be a while before I can work on it again. Maybe next summer if things go well.

lance corsi

12-18-2017, 06:47 AM

The problem with cheap knockoff Chinese goods. Buy American & avoid the hassles.

Hindsight

12-18-2017, 08:30 AM

Stuff like this is REAL hard to find American made unfortunately.

Scargo

12-18-2017, 10:01 AM

The problem with cheap knockoff Chinese goods. Buy American & avoid the hassles.
If you find some good resources for basic stuff that is made in USA I would appreciate links. I too have a hard time finding them and I've encountered some really cheap unplated connectors and really cheap wire. Not race car quality stuff. Amazon is really bad about selling crap.

I wonder about aircraft homebuilder supply places?
I think Pegasus auto racing supplies has a small selection of good stuff.
I did a quick search and found that Mouser (https://www.mouser.com/Circuit-Protection/Fuse-Holders/Fuse-Holder/_/N-axfrp/) has a lot of good, high-quality stuff from Littelfuse, Bussman and others! Grainger has a little.
I guess if you are not familiar with some of the old lines of electrical products that it could put you at a disadvantage.

Hindsight

08-18-2018, 08:24 AM

I'm still alive!

This year has not been a good car-year for me. Have had ZERO track days and I'm not happy about that but I've put my foot down that I'm not going back out to the track until I swap out the rear springs to make the handling more neutral. I also need to fully revise the braking system. I still haven't decided exactly what I will do. I love the Caddy options people are coming up with but I'm not willing to settle for not having a cable e-brake. So I'm leaning toward the Wilwood setup, but with larger rear calipers than the FFR Wilwood kit comes from. Would also like to make the windshield track-removable and add a rear wing.

I'm moving out of my house in the 'burbs to a place in the city that has no garage so the 818 and all my tools are going into Public Storage for a while. Hoping to build a detached garage out back later this year and I'll then be able to resume car stuff. Hoping 2019 will mark a return to racing/tuning.

For now, some pics from this year......

https://i.imgur.com/r7bOo8M.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QByYsmw.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/l5657Wq.jpg

wallace18

08-18-2018, 08:38 AM

Very cool pics!

Hobby Racer

08-18-2018, 08:50 PM

I love the Caddy options people are coming up with but I'm not willing to settle for not having a cable e-brake. So I'm leaning toward the Wilwood setup, but with larger rear calipers than the FFR Wilwood kit comes from.

I think I was the first one to try the Cadillac brake setup and I have to say it has exceeded my best expectations! And the car I tracked previously was a Lotus Elise which has some of the best braking out there for a stock vehicle. The balance is perfect and the required pedal effort minimal for a non boosted setup.

You can add a separate small cable operated e-brake on the rear rotors. I did this on my FFR roadster so I would have a cable operated e-brake as well and it works great. I used calipers from Wilwood but others make them as well.

https://wilwood.com/Calipers/CaliperProd?itemno=120-1064

Given the price point of the Cadillac setup compared to the Wilwood's, its worth looking into.

Hindsight

07-27-2019, 09:56 AM

Took the 818 to the drag strip for the first time. I figured it would run 12's. I got SO close at 13.05. Temps were in the 80's, track was at 1,000' and my Star Spec tires are now three years old and have like a dozen track days on them. Also running 500# rear springs. Putting the 275# rear springs on them with some new tires would for sure get it into the 12's. My 60' times were 2.0 seconds launching at 2500 RPM on the Accessport launch control. I had four runs, 13.0, 13.5, 13.4, and 13.1 in that order. Blew the tires off the middle two runs. The car hooked so-so on the first and last runs but there was still some spin.

111315

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27xdFgfjLgA

Hindsight

08-30-2019, 08:46 AM

My 818 chapter has come to an end. A buyer has purchased my 818 and he intends to do with it exactly what I intended for it when I built it: To drive it a bit on the street and take it to a bunch of track days. I'm thrilled that someone who wants to race it and drive it and enjoy it has purchased it and I know that they will enjoy and benefit from all the extra engineering I put into this car. Based on our discussions, he will take the car to the next level, which is what I had hoped for.

I can't believe it's been five years since I bought the kit. Doesn't seem like that long ago. I really enjoyed the build and enjoyed the community of builders who helped me and who I also helped along in our journeys. Thanks to all the forum vendors like Mike and Mechie and others for helping to round-out and polish these cars, and thanks to Wayne for his generous advice!

I may check back in from time to time to see what you folks are up to, but I'm looking forward to the next adventure.

Cheers, and thanks again to everyone!

Frank818

08-30-2019, 08:53 AM

Oh man we are losing excellent expertise here! But you got what you deserved, a great buyer with great intentions for what you did with the car and that's important!

Long live you and your car.

Your IM notifications are turned on? lolll

Hindsight

08-30-2019, 09:03 AM

Haha thanks Frank! Yes my IM alerts are on so I'll get an e-mail if anyone ever pings me with questions. I'm happy to answer, though some details of things are fading with time to make room for other things, as it is when we get old haha.

Bob_n_Cincy

08-30-2019, 10:22 AM

Hindsight,
Sad and good news at the same time.
Do you have another project in mind?
Bob

Hindsight

08-30-2019, 10:30 AM

Thanks Bob!

I'm really unsure. I don't have a garage anymore and as a result, sold all my big tools like cherry picker, air compressor, shop press, drill press, etc. So whatever I get is going to have to live in a car-port and be more of a bolt-on type project vs a kit or anything requiring much fabrication. It will need to be a hard-top or convertible and not a roadster. I want something mostly for street, but that I can also take to track days, though I'm not as focused on being the fastest car at the track day as I once was.

Some cars on my short list are a Porsche 997.2, an FD RX-7, a second or third-gen CTS-V, an older SL65 AMG, and MAYBE an old R8 but I don't know if I'd want to risk tracking that. Of all these, the 997 is what I'm leaning toward.

redbudrr

08-30-2019, 02:57 PM

Sorry to see you go. Your build was a great inspiration. Thanks for your knowledge and knowhow it was a big help.

DSR-3

08-30-2019, 06:42 PM

Congrats' on the sale! We'll miss you here for sure.

Frank818

09-01-2019, 06:44 PM

Some cars on my short list are a Porsche 997.2, an FD RX-7, a second or third-gen CTS-V, an older SL65 AMG, and MAYBE an old R8 but I don't know if I'd want to risk tracking that. Of all these, the 997 is what I'm leaning toward.

How about the new '20 mid-engine Vette? Super cheap on the 1st year.

Hindsight

09-02-2019, 11:36 AM

How about the new '20 mid-engine Vette? Super cheap on the 1st year.

I really like them. I haven't heard anything saying their MSRP will go up in subsequent years. What I read is that they are building the car on a global platform with high production numbers in order to keep the cost down. The problem there is that it means they may not retain their value too well. The cars that retain value well tend to be more exclusive. Some examples include the FD RX-7, Mk4 Supra, Lotus Elise, Porsche 911, Alfa Romeo 4C, etc. I'm also not a big fan of buying first model-year since there are often kinks that need to be worked out and I've heard Chevrolet had a LOT of electrical gremlins on their test cars.

I'm still thinking but keep leaning toward a 997. I strongly considered the 4C but I really want to have a manual in my fun car, and the 997 can be had for around the same price as the 4C and I feel the 911 is a lot more car for the money.

Jetfuel

09-02-2019, 11:47 AM

After expending the weekend reading through all 39 pages of this build I can say with certainty that his perseverance, know how attention to detail will be missed.
His built should be read by anybody building one of these dream machines, specially the wiring portion of it...lots of cool how to and tricks.
Hindsight good luck on the next phase of your life and thanks

Jet.

Wayne Presley

09-02-2019, 12:34 PM

I've driven the 4C and came away unimpressed, I would pass on it. The 997 is a great car. I'm currently putting an LS3 in a 996...

Hindsight

09-02-2019, 01:15 PM

I've driven the 4C and came away unimpressed, I would pass on it. The 997 is a great car. I'm currently putting an LS3 in a 996...

Thanks for sharing your experience Wayne! I haven't gotten around to driving one, but given that you used to race the Elise, if you're saying you weren't impressed with the 4C then that definitely says something.

How long until that LS swap is done? My friend has an LS3 in a Cayman. It's honestly terrifying. Just too much torque. Definitely a handful on the track. I think I'd be happy with a 997.2 Carrera S with a manual but I still have research to do.

Wayne Presley

09-02-2019, 02:15 PM

Thanks for sharing your experience Wayne! I haven't gotten around to driving one, but given that you used to race the Elise, if you're saying you weren't impressed with the 4C then that definitely says something.

How long until that LS swap is done? My friend has an LS3 in a Cayman. It's honestly terrifying. Just too much torque. Definitely a handful on the track. I think I'd be happy with a 997.2 Carrera S with a manual but I still have research to do.

Motor is in, 3rd radiator and all the plumbing is in, just need to fab up the exhaust and a little wiring

metros

09-02-2019, 02:20 PM

aquillen

09-02-2019, 06:30 PM

Hindsight, I am one of your avid followers as well. Will miss your updates for sure but these builds all have a life expectancy I guess. Hoping your next car pushes all your buttons. Between my wife and I we've had over 40 cars, loved most of them. But it always seems greener on the other side of the highway...

Hindsight

09-06-2019, 04:11 PM

Congrats on a successful build and now sale. I'm sure you've learned a bunch over the life of your build and that makes it worthwhile regardless of the expense.

Am I the only one that is interested in the sale price? I've been trying to keep an eye/ear out to see general trends of pricing.

Thanks metros. I accepted $20k for it. Far cry for the $50k+ I had in it but I didn't build it with resale in mind. My goal was to build something that met my standards, was fun to drive, and rock-solid reliable. I achieved that.

Frank818

09-06-2019, 05:22 PM

and rock-solid reliable. I achieved that.

Darn yeah!!!!!!

Zach34

09-09-2019, 01:31 AM

Congrats on the sale. I hoped you pointed the buyer to the forum. It would be great to be able to keep track of the car.

Hindsight

09-09-2019, 09:45 AM

Congrats on the sale. I hoped you pointed the buyer to the forum. It would be great to be able to keep track of the car.

Yes, he is aware of the forum and has read my build thread but I am not sure if he will be active here or not.

Harley818

09-09-2019, 11:14 PM

Hindsight, thanks for your input and sorry to see you go. However, we all have our next projects......

markclow1

03-01-2020, 03:47 PM

I am the owner of the car now. Its very quick!

markclow1

03-01-2020, 03:48 PM

I also forgot to mention what a standup guy Jeff is.

maclonchas

11-24-2021, 07:37 AM

Hindsight

11-24-2021, 08:44 AM

Are you referring to the wiring diagram for the entire car wiring harness? If so, I don't have one custom - I created it using the factory wiring diagram for the donor car factory repair manual which, in my case, was for a 2007 Subaru WRX. I identified which wires were needed, which were not, and removed all the wires and connectors that were not needed. Then I laid out strings in the car where the wiring harness would lay, and taped them together to create the layout. Then pulled that out from the car, laid it down on a board, traced it with a marker and labeled it. Then I laid the OEM harness down on that and shortened and extended each and every wire as needed to get the shape and length I needed in order to match the layout. I've long lost part numbers for the additional wiring connectors I added but they were just GM Weatherpack connectors. You can buy them online from many sources. Just figure out how many pins you want each connector to have, buy the plastic housings, buy the rubber grommets for each wire, then buy the male and female metal pins that go inside. You'll need a pin crimping tool and a de-pinning tool as well, both of which are specific for the GM Weatherpack connectors.

Alternately, you can just buy a complete harness from Wayne at VCP which is what I would recommend unless you have tons and tons of time and have a lot of experience with wiring and wiring diagrams and enjoy the work. My harness took like two months to build (evenings and weekends).

Hindsight

11-24-2021, 08:58 AM

Also for anyone curious what I moved on to, I ended up picking up a 2009 997.2 C2S with a 6 speed. It has been a lot of fun. I've limited the upgrades to exhaust, shifter and cables, Ohlins coilovers, GT3 front and rear sway bars and lower control arms, and BBS E88 three piece wheels.

I've tracked it a couple of times and it is faster around the track than the 818 was but not by a huge amount. Best so far at Road Atlanta on street tires is 1:43 and my best in the 818 was 1:46. I was running a 5 speed in the 818 and having a 6 speed would have made a huge difference. I love the close ratios of the 6 speed in the Porsche.

I miss some things about the 818 but the Porsche is obviously a much more well-rounded car. OEM and kit cars are two very different worlds.

157558

maclonchas

11-28-2021, 05:10 PM

Mechie3

11-29-2021, 10:45 PM

Hindsight,

Thanks for the input. I am fairly persistent and stubborn as my wife states. I look forward to the challenge of wiring issues. I am starting the build (less kit which was ordered) to drive out the bugs of the wiring and ECU.

Thanks

Bill

This thread might help you a little with the wiring. Side note: After going through all the trouble to do that AND document it... I scrapped it and went iWire. lol

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?11880-Wiring-Guide-06-WRX-Sedan-with-Auto-AC-HVAC

roadrashrob

11-30-2021, 07:40 AM

Hindsight,

I know this is an old thread, but was looking if you had the part numbers and a wiring diagram of the install. I am trying to follow your design here as it looks neat and straightforward. Thanks in advance.

Bill

If only iWire was still doing them for the 818. They were an excellent solution! I had Wayne at VCP do my harness. He uses a MegaSquirt based AMP/EFI ECU, but I am extremely happy with it and the wiring is very compact and tidy.

This picture shows the extent of my "tunnel" wiring.
158077

-Rob