Hindsight's build thread

[07FIREBLADE]

Ask him about his wing mount if you get a chance and the specs on the wing.

[Frank818]

Did everyone tell you your new exhaust exit is better? :)

Why is everyone installing something between the hood hinges' brackets and hood, are the 2 surfaces that much incompatible?

[Hindsight]

Thanks Frank - Everyone seems to like it and the exhaust smell issues are basically gone. I can still whiff exhaust from time to time but I no longer feel like it is being piped straight into the cockpit. As for the hinges, you don't need to stand them out like that. I did it to gain some extra room for error (I didn't want to run out of hinge travel).

Sorry guys, I wasn't able to connect with Ron (the other 818 owner at the track) today to get specs on the wheels, tires, or wing, but I'm pretty sure the wing is an APR and the mount he either custom made himself (he is a great fabricator) or had made for him.

I'm home now, very sunburned, and very tired. Video is encoding.

Some more info on the experience:

1. I did experience overheating. Both coolant and oil. I don't have a coolant temp gauge (other than in the OEM gauge cluster) but by lap 4 or 5, I would hit 240 degree oil temps and the coolant temp needle would be right under the red so I'd back out of it. I do have an external oil cooler but the only way air gets to it is through a SPAL fan, which does pull a lot of air but maybe not enough. I'm going to change it to be fed with air from the side scoop. Also, I have NO ducting for the radiator yet. Just haven't gotten to it. I know that will make a big difference. Lastly, it was 93 degrees all weekend, and probably much hotter right over the track.

2. Still not happy with the brakes. With the new Ferodo DS2500 pads, it does stop well, and I can confirm that the ABS I installed works flawlessly, but I have to push on the brakes so hard that I am unable to modulate. Brakes are firm, just require too much pressure. I am going to try a smaller master cylinder. I don't think I can drill the hole in the brake pedal arm any higher for more leverage because the pushrod would be at too much of an angle I think. I could be braking much deeper if I had more confidence in the brakes.

3. This should really be item #1 but, it's been 18 years since I have been on a track. Hard to believe. I have a lot to learn.

4. My 818 felt unsettled when the suspension loaded and unloaded. Basically when transitioning from going straight to turning, or when rapidly changing turn directions. It didn't feel like it handled bumps in the track very well either. It was a bit of a handful. Some of that could be bump steer... I didn't get time to check and correct it before going to the track so I will check that out, but I think stiffer springs and better struts are in my future.

5. I'm too scared to drive it over about 115. At that speed it becomes very unstable. The slightest irregularity in the track sends the car drifting right or left. So at the top of fourth gear in the straights, I put it into fifth and just hold the speed to around 110-115. Could be bump steer, lack of a front splitter, or some other alignment issue.

6. I used an app to log my runs and am still figuring out how to read the data, but just scrolling through some of the runs, I see a couple turns where I hit 1.2g (I have no idea how accurate that is though). My best lap time was 1:49. The best lap time for my first session was 1:59 so I dropped 10 seconds over the course of the weekend.

7. In spite of my ~3 degrees of caster, the steering wheel stays wherever I put it, at any speed. It is very easy to turn the steering wheel, but it just doesn't want to return to center on its own. So strange. I need to figure this out. I de-powered the rack the "full" way, but removing the rack from the housing and cutting off the seals from the inside, then welding the pressure fittings closed and greasing the rack with grease before re-installing, so I'm really not sure what could be causing this.

8. I was really surprised by how fast on the straights a number of cars were compared to the 818. I have 268hp to the wheels and a guy in an 07 STI with 300hp to the wheels and full interior pulled me on the back straight. Really surprised me. Part of it could be aerodynamics because you enter the back straight at around 60, and of course, the 818S (or any roadster) is not going to have the best aerodynamics for high speeds, but still... there is an enormous power to weight difference between us if you factor that STI was probably 11:1 and I am at 7:1, so I'm still scratching my head on that one.

9. I saw intake temps in the high 120's, post AWIC. I need to do what Tamra and Andrew did and make a box for my air filter at the scoop. If that still isn't enough, I'll put probes on the AWIC water temps to see if it's the front or rear heat exchanger that needs upgrading.

10. The cut-out issue in the corners: I am 99% positive it was fuel starvation. If I overfilled the tank, the cut-out in the corners didn't happen once. By overfill, I mean having some gas in the filler neck higher than the top of the tank. The first time I did that, fuel got into my charcoal can and began dripping out onto the lower side sail lip and onto the ground. I siphoned 4 gallons off and hit the track where I then encountered terrible cut-out in the corners. So this tells me that a tank filled, minus just 4 gallons, is enough to cause the issue. It will take me a some time to figure out how to resolve the issue, but I need to change the breather so I don't have a reservoir for fuel to collect and slowly drip out of right in front of the right rear tire. Need to plumb in back behind the tire.

Couple pics:

http://i.imgur.com/tkpGP19.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/yn568qR.jpg

[Wayne Presley]

4: have you check the rear roll steer?
5: you need the splitter, really plants the front
8: HP is more important to speed than power to weight
9: feeding the motor with cool air is very important to keeping the air inlet temps under control.
10: you need a surge tank, you need a surge tank and finally you need a surge tank...

[Hindsight]

Hahah, thanks for the input as always Wayne!

I have checked the rear roll steer with the following method: I put a piece of angle aluminum across the two lower lateral links (the toe links) at the inboard side (as far inboard as I could until the frame mounting ears were in the way). I then set a digital angle gauge on the angle aluminum and zeroed it out. I then moved the gauge and angle aluminum to the outboard end of the two links. I then adjusted the upper forward link until the angle gauge read zero, then re-checked inner again. Is this an acceptable method? I have a shiny new bump steer gauge.... I believe I could use it to check the roll steer in the rear. I will say that I checked the roll steer before I mounted the body, and before the suspension settled a half inch. Probably should check it again!

Thanks again!

[redfogo]

Try a hydramat before you go surge tank crazy. Cheaper option and they work great!

[Hindsight]

Sorry for the rattle - it was the mount. It is much better in subsequent vids.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1EUJYp6LNc

[Hindsight]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gBU3Kqota0

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Great job Hindsight.
I 'm glad to see you didn't hurt anything.
1. ducting to force all the nose air to go through the radiator is critical.
2. Brakes, been there, done that. What is you PV and caliper set up?
3. right there with you.
7. My steering self centering has improver when I went to 4.5 deg caster
8. power to weight ratio gives you acieration out of turns. Power to aero drag ratio gives you high speed.
10. See Wayne's response.
Bob

[STiPWRD]

Congrats on the successful weekend and coming back with a running motor!

I know you've got the external oil cooler but are you also running the OEM oil cooler/heat exchanger? If so, is it after the external cooler? The high coolant temps may have heated up the oil. Once you get the radiator ducting installed, it may solve both problems.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Slava, I am not running the factory oil heat exchanger. I removed it and put a mocal thermostat controlled sandwich plate in it's place. -10 or -12AN lines (I always forget which) then go to the oil cooler.

I think, it is certainly possible that even without the factory heat exchanger, the high coolant temps may have contributed to high oil temps. My plan of action is going to be to leave my current remote oil cooler setup alone, and instead focus on ducting the radiator. I'll see where that gets me and go from there. Once coolant temps are under control, I will see if oil temps are still a problem.

[Mechie3]

Did everyone tell you your new exhaust exit is better? :)

Why is everyone installing something between the hood hinges' brackets and hood, are the 2 surfaces that much incompatible?

The hinge mount surface is flat while the hood is curved. Adding something there puts less stress on the hood long term. Alternatively, you could just stack high density foam or a softer rubber to take up the gap and relieve stress. Making a permanent pad just looks better.

[Frank818]

8: HP is more important to speed than power to weight

Without torque, there ain't any HP. :)


10: you need a surge tank, you need a surge tank and finally you need a surge tank...

Hydramat would not work?

[Frank818]

Jeff, are you getting any good news from the licensing process?
The track sessions will give you opportunity to fix your 10 issues before you push it on the roads.

[Hindsight]

Hey Frank. I have some sort of good news from the state on the licensing process. After eight long weeks, I got a letter in the mail saying they had my application (so I guess that's good right?!), and that in order to continue processing it, they need two appraisals on the value of the vehicle. Wayne was nice enough to help me out and send me one, as were a couple of other forum vendors. So I sent the appraisals back in to the state a week or two ago and am now back to waiting. I would guess it will be another two months until I hear back from them, at best. I thought for sure I'd have a license plate by summer.

Bob, thanks for the input! I will try to get as much camber as I can by cutting the a-arms. I may also slot the upper spindle brackets so I can gain some camber there without affecting the caster so much. Jim Schenk actually suggested that. My only concern doing that is that I worry about the camber changing when hitting bug bumps or going over curbs at the track. I am not sure that two bolts will hold it tight enough.....

[Wayne Presley]

If you still have the stock upper bolts, drill the upper hole out and rotate the bolt 180° to gain more negative camber and still have zero slop.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Wayne! Do you happen to know what size drill bit I should use for optimal adjustability, yet no slop?

[Wayne Presley]

I can measure the bolt tomorrow

[Zach34]

Thanks for posting all of your lessons leaned. That's a huge help to me and I'm sure many others.

I experienced the same kind of handling issues with my Roadster. There was not much on-center feel and the car was very darty and hard to control at 3 degrees caster. I simultaneously went to 6-7 degrees of caster and power steering. It was night and day. The car literally felt smaller, lighter, and ten times easier to control. I depowered my rack in the 818 just like you did. I'm hoping to be able to run 5-6 degrees of caster without the power steering, but if it doesn't feel as good as my Roadster did, I'm adding power.

On the coolant/oil heat, I'll offer my experience in the Roadster again. I know it's an entirely different engine, so grain of salt, obviously... I had an enormously oversized aluminum radiator on my Roadster with the 14" fan that came with the kit and a custom shroud. Coolant temps never got over 180 (thermostat temp) on the track. Temps would rise very quickly when idling at a stop, but flipping the fan on or moving even at a slow speed cooled it right down. I have a 3" core custom Griffin aluminum radiator in the 818. Knock on wood I get the same performance.

That huge radiator on the Roadster offered no benefit to the oil temps. While the coolant temps would not get over 180, after 3 laps I pegged my oil temp gauge at 240-ish in 70-80 degree ambient temps. Granted, again, it's a different engine, but unless you have a oil/coolant heat exchanger (and I see you don't), there's really nowhere in the engine casting where the oil and coolant come in close enough proximity to each other to transfer a lot of heat. I don't think upgrading your radiator will do much to the oil temps. Your oil cooler's location could the the culprit. Maybe try some experiemental, non-permanent locations to rule that out?

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the input Zach.

I will first try adding more caster and if that fails to correct the steering issue, I'll look at adding power steering. I wanted to keep the 818 light and simple as a design goal, but not having any return to center causes the serious issue of reducing or eliminating feedback through the steering wheel. When I am in a corner, it is incredibly difficult to feel what the tires are doing. I can't use steering wheel push-back as an input. That needs to be fixed if I'm going to drive the car fast.

For the brakes: I did some searching last night and I do see that the power brake booster will in fact fit in the 818, though I might have to notch out the windshield tray. I have the 1" master cylinder from the 07 WRX and what I might do is add the power booster, swap the master out for the 1 1/16" master, and drill a hole for the master pushrod even lower on the brake pedal than stock, to try offsetting the touchiness of the brakes with the power booster installed. The only concern I have with this is that the pushrod may be at too much of an angle if I move it down. I think the Wilwood setup would be the most ideal but I'm going to try avoiding forking out that kind of money right now.

As for the radiator - good point. I'm running the stock 07 radiator. I should probably upgrade to a thicker aluminum one, but before I do, at the very least I need to add ducting to what I have now. I think it's getting a serious lack of flow.

I'm going to use alumalite to make a front splitter that will flat-bottom the front part of the car, and will then make my own custom radiator shroud based off that. The FFR provided shrouds didn't fit for me at all. Speaking of - sheet aluminum (even thin stuff like .040) is crazy expensive around here :mad:

[Hindsight]

I can measure the bolt tomorrow

Thanks Wayne. If all I need to do is drill out the spindle bracket on both sides to the largest OD of the bolt, leaving the spindle hole itself alone, I can cover that without bothering you.

What I don't understand is how it works..... I see the bolt has a lobe on it, but the large part of the lobe is round and it appears to be perfectly centered in the bolt. Only the small side of the bolt is offset. So on one side of the bolt, both the spindle bracket and the spindle itself won't be impacted by the orientation of the bolt, it would seem. So I'm not understanding how it works...... Unless I am supposed to leave one side of the spindle bracket smaller - to the small diameter of the bolt, and the other side of the bracket is drilled out to the larger dia? That would make sense I guess.... Do I need to use any special washer?

http://i.imgur.com/EvcjRE9h.jpg

[Wayne Presley]

No special washer needed and you can drill both sides the same diameter as the larger side.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Wayne. I'm confused as to how it works. I would think in order for it to work, the spindle bracket would need to have one hole that is the same diameter as the smallest diameter of the bolt (the side with threads on it), and the other side of the spindle bracket would need to have a hole that is actually larger than the thickest part of the bolt (nearest the shoulder).

[Frank818]

The FFR provided shrouds didn't fit for me at all.

They provided you shrouds?

Sorry on the plating. :( That really sucks and really is super long (will be same here), but like I said, looks like you got some stuff to improve which will make it more safe to drive on roads. No wasted time here.

[wleehendrick]

Thanks Wayne. I'm confused as to how it works. I would think in order for it to work, the spindle bracket would need to have one hole that is the same diameter as the smallest diameter of the bolt (the side with threads on it), and the other side of the spindle bracket would need to have a hole that is actually larger than the thickest part of the bolt (nearest the shoulder).

The axis of the threaded portion of the bolt is off center from the larger shoulder. Therefore, as the bolt is rotated in it's seat, the angular position, determined by the larger shoulder, laterally offsets the axis of the threaded portion.

[Hindsight]

The axis of the threaded portion of the bolt is off center from the larger shoulder. Therefore, as the bolt is rotated in it's seat, the angular position, determined by the larger shoulder, laterally offsets the axis of the threaded portion.

Right - I believe I'm on the same page as you, but is my statement about the hole sizes in the spindle bracket accurate? If so, I believe I understand fully, if not, I'm still confused :eek:

[Loring]

I should have a surge tank alternative fairly soon. I'm still working out the fill pump specs.

[Wayne Presley]

The hole in the spindle is the same size as the shoulder, as you rotate it the spindle moves in relation to the hole giving you the camber gain.

[bbjones121]

I feel that pictures would be extremely valuable here?

[Wayne Presley]

One bit of warning, you have to have your wheel mounted so the wheel/tire doesn't hit the upper ball joint.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Wayne, that makes sense.

[Frank818]

I feel that pictures would be extremely valuable here?

Better, a video. :) Im sure Wayne has a couple in his pockets.

[Hindsight]

I will take a video when I go to install it. I can only see it working if ONE side of the spindle bracket has a hole that is only large enough for the small threaded diameter of the bolt. I am pretty sure that is how the struts are in the WRX. If the holes on both sides of the bracket are large, then when you rotate the bolt, the bolt can simply shift around in the bracket holes instead of staying put while forcing the spindle inward or outward.

If one of the bracket holes is large, I could always weld a piece of steel over the hole and re-drill it to the smaller size, but would need to ensure I get the alignment just right. Anyway, I will take pics and post video.

[Hindsight]

Had some tire rub - forgot to mention that. Not awful, but there isn't really anything I can do about it aside from modifying the fenders. Based on the rub location, I doubt adding more camber to the front tires will fix it. I can trim it a bit where that bolt is though, but that is the least concerning area.

http://i.imgur.com/dYiwwmTh.jpg

[Canadian818]

Had some tire rub - forgot to mention that. Not awful, but there isn't really anything I can do about it aside from modifying the fenders. Based on the rub location, I doubt adding more camber to the front tires will fix it. I can trim it a bit where that bolt is though, but that is the least concerning area.

http://i.imgur.com/dYiwwmTh.jpg

What front springs are you running?

[Hindsight]

Stock S springs all the way around. 275 rear 350 front I believe.

I'm going to get new spring rates all the way around after I figure out what the ideal rates would be. Having a buddy help me out with this.

[Frank818]

I'm going to get new spring rates all the way around after I figure out what the ideal rates would be. Having a buddy help me out with this.

If you come up with formulas and stuff, or no matter the method, I'm interessed, cuz you know with my added weight in the back it may well change my springs-shocks setup, but I have no idea how to determine yet.

[Frank818]

I'm very surprised about your aweful g-forces starvation issues. You are the 1st one I read about with that problem, what have others done to not have the issue? I'm sure many run the old FFR tank and track the car too.

[Hindsight]

Hey Frank, there are well-defined formulas that all the suspension manufacturers use to design a setup for any given car. You take into account the corner weights (which would account for your heavier engine), unsprung weight, motion ratio (motion of the shock vs the wheel), suspension type, and use of the car. You then target your desired suspension frequency and all that gets plugged into a formula and out pops your spring rates and shock valving. http://eibach.com/america/en/motorsport/products/suspension-worksheet

A good set of dual adjustable coilovers from someone like Ohlins or Penske is going to run like $3500 to $4000 but it is worth it in my opinion if you are going to race. Going to the track, I expected to be able to run a bit like a Miata: Super, super fast through the turns and so-so on the straights. I ended up being one of the slower cars through the corners because the suspension was scary and unpredictable, while being fast on the straights.... so it was more like driving a Camaro than a Miata. Watching the in-car video of guys in other cars running good suspension is like night and day. They just power through all the turns with bumps and curbs and it doesn't upset the car at all.... stays perfectly planted. I'm not going to get that with the setup I have now. I am considering just changing spring rates for the short term but I have doubts the koni shocks that come with the S will be valved properly for stiffer springs. The only well to tell would be to put them on a shock dyno. Of course, having the konis re-valved is another option.

[Hindsight]

I'm very surprised about your aweful g-forces starvation issues. You are the 1st one I read about with that problem, what have others done to not have the issue? I'm sure many run the old FFR tank and track the car too.

Others have mentioned it. redfogo couldn't even get up his driveway with 1/2 a tank of gas. But yeah, I'm not sure how many other people are tracking their car and using the FFR tank instead of a fuel cell or the boyd tank. The boyd tank has baffles. Fuel cells typically have them as well. I have the newer FFR tank. No real baffles - just one short wall next to the fuel pickup. All that said, even I am surprised by the fact that I was getting it as bad as I was with a fairly full tank. If I filled the tank to the point where I could see gas in the filler neck through the filler hole, and then I siphoned exactly 4 gallons off from there, I would get starvation. My gas gauge registered about 3/4 to 7/8 full at that point. I don't see how air could even get to the fuel pump pickup at that tank level but it must have been happening because if I over-filled the tank, the issue went away.

[Canadian818]

The stock "S" springs are adjustable, might only be compression but it's something to try first. Also finish your aero first, and based on FFR's wind tunnel testing, account for the added weight at speed when choosing a spring. I'm not surprised your front end was loose, without a splitter or any rad ducting it was a big air scoop. Any springs you buy should work on a future "better" shock, so there's no harm in playing with spring rates now. Are you running a front sway bar?

[tmoretta]

I have swapped out the original FFR rear springs for 400 lb. Eibachs. Even after removing the front sway bar I still have more understeer than I like (car does have the front splitter). Is a good next step stiffening the rear Koni shocks? How?

[Hindsight]

Not running a front swaybar. The stock Konis are adjustable in rebound only.

[UnhipPopano]

Another adjustment to try,for correcting under-steer, is to raise up the back end of your car.

[Hindsight]

Here is a video clearly showing the cut-out in a hard corner (it is the second corner shown in the vid). Note that it is two corners in the same direction back to back. It's a little hard to hear it but if you listen, you can hear it, and more than that you can see us both go flying forward as the power just completely stops, and then a second later it comes back on like a light switch. It does this at 75% full but never at 100-110% full.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhE_COQKcRU&feature=youtu.be

[Frank818]

Hey Frank, there are well-defined formulas that all the suspension manufacturers use to design a setup for any given car. You take into account the corner weights (which would account for your heavier engine), unsprung weight, motion ratio (motion of the shock vs the wheel), suspension type, and use of the car. You then target your desired suspension frequency and all that gets plugged into a formula and out pops your spring rates and shock valving. http://eibach.com/america/en/motorsport/products/suspension-worksheet

A good set of dual adjustable coilovers from someone like Ohlins or Penske is going to run like $3500 to $4000 but it is worth it in my opinion if you are going to race. Going to the track, I expected to be able to run a bit like a Miata: Super, super fast through the turns and so-so on the straights. I ended up being one of the slower cars through the corners because the suspension was scary and unpredictable, while being fast on the straights.... so it was more like driving a Camaro than a Miata. Watching the in-car video of guys in other cars running good suspension is like night and day. They just power through all the turns with bumps and curbs and it doesn't upset the car at all.... stays perfectly planted. I'm not going to get that with the setup I have now. I am considering just changing spring rates for the short term but I have doubts the koni shocks that come with the S will be valved properly for stiffer springs. The only well to tell would be to put them on a shock dyno. Of course, having the konis re-valved is another option.

I like that answer. Yeah I do have a spreadsheet but some input data are totally unknown to me so I go nowhere with that.
I'll have to keep in mind the possibility to use adjustable suspension, like I had on my Corrado and it was awesome. I'm keeping your post in my notes.

[Frank818]

Hey Jeff my man. Do you have more pix of your rear splash guards fiasco?
Cuz when I read you post I freaked out and went and checked mines. I test fitted them and they fit 90% perfect. I don't expect to trim any of the alu panels. I was wondering, are you sure you didn't swap the parts around? Using the left alu panel on the right side and vice-versa?

[Hindsight]

Hey Frank, check out this post: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?15217-Hindsight-s-build-thread&p=247714&viewfull=1#post247714

You can see exactly the mods I had to do for the splash guards there. You'll note I had to notch the outer liner so I could get it up higher while still clearing the cross brace, and then added an angle bracket I bent up to hold it in place. You can also see the extension I had to make on the rear lower part of the outer liner. I didn't have to swap any parts or sides.

Now the INNER liners - those are another story. The inner liners are made with tabs, such that they force the outer liner to conform to a specific pre-set arch shape. That is a problem. In addition, they don't clear my brake lines or even the suspension components. So my strategy is to make my own inner liners. The outer lines have their own arch-profile set by simply bolting the front and rear to the side-sail, then bolting the top to the cross brace. Once you've done that, the liner has a curve that it is happy with. I will now put a piece of cardboard up against the inside of it (with no wheel in place), and use a black sharpie to trace the liner's curve onto the cardboard. I'll then cut the cardboard template according to that line, add some "tabs" like the FFR unit has, then do any trimming on the bottom of it as needed to clear the suspension links. Then I will trace that onto some .040 aluminum sheet, bend the tabs, and rivet it in place. Follow with some 3M under-coat and install.

I haven't gotten to the point of doing the inner liners yet because I have other stuff I need to focus on. The outer liners are the most important part anyway since they keep stuff from really being flung around everywhere. My advice to you is to remove your springs and rubber bump stop, and then jack up the tire as far up as it will go and use this as a guide to set how far up your liners need to be to avoid rubbing.

In other news, I stupidly signed up for another track day: October 21st, back at Road Atlanta. I say stupidly because before I go, I basically must get all of the following done if I want to be able to really use the car:
1. Fix fuel venting issue (over-flow was collecting in my DIY charcoal cannister and then slowly/steadily dropping down right in front of my rear tire)
2. Fix fuel starvation issue (hydramat - already on order)
3. Fix overheating issue (build a scoop below the car for my oil cooler, install a new water pump with the cast impeller, add radiator ducting)
4. Raise the car a half inch to get it to 4.5" proper ride height
5. Re-align the car at the new ride height, use eccentric bolts to set camber, modify upper A-arms for more caster, and add caster shim to LCA - shooting for -1 camber and 6 caster
6. Make a front spoiler from Alumalite or Alumacore
7. Check/adjust bump steer
8. Put front springs in rear, then buy a set of 400lb springs to put up front. Then adjust the yellow "S" Koni shocks all the way firm

I also have to figure out how I'm going to get the car to the track and back.

[Frank818]

Yes those are the ones I've seen, was wondering if you had more. I don't seem to need any of this (I will have to cut a bit for my brake lines though). Obviously if I test full compression then yeah, but I'm willing to take the risk as it's pretty rare on the road you will bottom it out. But if you do and it breaks the guards, those aren't plastic so it may not look pretty. I'll think about it, yes.

Probably since you needed a bigger diameter on the outer guard then it explains why the bumper notch wasn't lined up and it screws up everything else too, I can understand.

[Hindsight]

Hi Frank - I can take more pics if it would help you but there is really nothing more to see. Those are the only mods. If you want to see something else, let me know and I'll take some more pics.

I would strongly suggest you check full compression. The reason? After my track session, I found solid rub marks at the top of my splash liners. This means that even though I jacked up the rear suspension as high as I could in order to figure out how high the liner needed to be, on the road in real life the bump-stop compressed even more than I was able to compress it with the jack and the wheel went higher, causing a rub. Now I need to move the liner even higher (probably only 1/2" though).

As for the diameter of the outer guard - I have no idea how they would work even with a normal inner liner placement. They are too small diameter. But I guess they worked for some folks.....

[Frank818]

Ok I'll find the time to get the damn spring off and compress the shock.

What is your tire size again?

[Hindsight]

256/35/18 in the back

[Frank818]

256... ok did you mean 255 or 265? Both typos are possible lolll

[Hindsight]

265, sorry - went as big as I thought possible in the back, and I'm pretty sure I hit the limit.

[Frank818]

I have same size and same tires as well, if I recall you got Yokos.
It seems my liners fit ok. I cheated though, I pushed them as high as I could and inside the fender by about 1", the rear doesn't fit hard on the fender well, I will need to put more foam or something but that allowed me to cheat and raise the liner. I notched just a little bit the rear bumper notch to accommodate the change of configuration. Up to the bump stop I'm ok, it seems I could be ok if the stop squeezes 1/4", more than that I'm not sure. But if I hit the stop too often it means I have a too soft suspension anyway. Which I'm pretty I have with my added weight in the back.

It's surprising how much of a difference between builds. :(

Hey where's your plate? In the mail?

[Hindsight]

I have the Dunlop Direzza Z2 Star Specs.

Yeah, once you start changing things, it has a cascading effect. It sounds like you have it figured out so that's good.

Plate? Hah. I'm now waiting for my vin plate. It should be here any time between tomorrow and 8 weeks from now. Then after I get it, I put it on the car and get a cop to fill out another T22-B to verify the new vin plate is attached. Then I have to send that to the state and then another 8 weeks or so later, I should theoretically have my title. I can then go to the tag office and pay my 7% sales tax and get a license plate and tag (after first passing emissions which I'm not worried about). So probably going to be a few more months unless I get lucky. So far I have not been lucky.

[Frank818]

Man you're quick responding to posts. :) I like that.

Oops, it's ninjack who got the same tire, sorry for the confusion.

I'm crossing fingers my measurements and tests were good. There's nothing better than real world driving to test, though, but that'll have to wait for me.

Wait, what did you say? Between TOMORROW and.... EIGHT weeks??? What the hell is that HUGE gap for?? Outrageous!

Your process seems to be similar to the one in QC, although our overall process should be less than that. I'm surprised USA made it so hard on kit cars in GA. :(
But like I said a long time ago, I think you have a lot to fix on the car until then, I'm sure you'll be busy for most of that time. Better fixing now than once you roll it on the street and have problems at a right light! :)

[Ekim7878]

I am going to start the GA registration process in a couple of months, so I am glad you are blazing the trail first. I saw you said you had to pass emissions. Would they not give you an emissions exemption for a kit car? I was putting my exhaust together based on getting the exemption. Maybe I need to change my design.

[Hindsight]

What county are you in? If you are not in an emissions county, you wont have to get tested. Otherwise you will have to.

I will have a writeup on the whole registration process as soon as I am finally finished with mine. If you need to start the process before mine is done, PM me and I will walk you through it. I can save you months of delays....

Frank, the process here isnt really difficult, it is just long, from a duration standpoint.

[RM1SepEx]

Thank God I live in Maine, Submit all the paperwork, takes about 3 weeks until they call, cursory look at the car, they pop rivet the Maine VIN number (ME7008 in my case) Give you the title. Then I go to to my inspection station like any other car. They put it on the lift, make sure it has all needed "stuff" ODB2 tested for codes, check lights wipers, CAT and Muffler etc DONE! :p

[AZPete]

I've been agonizing over your bureaucratic tangle to get plates in Atlanta and you have my sympathy. But, if Dan thinks 3 weeks in Maine is good, Arizona is one visit to the DMV, no sales tax, no emissions test, no OBD2 test, leave with plates before lunch. OTOH, we pay more for lobster.

[Ekim7878]

What county are you in? If you are not in an emissions county, you wont have to get tested. Otherwise you will have to.

I will have a writeup on the whole registration process as soon as I am finally finished with mine. If you need to start the process before mine is done, PM me and I will walk you through it. I can save you months of delays....

Frank, the process here isnt really difficult, it is just long, from a duration standpoint.

Darn. I am in Dekalb. So I will have to pass emissions. I guess I will work towards a new exhaust setup. I am thinking my car will be completed by Christmas so you will (hopefully :-) have your plate by then. Thanks for help.

[Hindsight]

I could lend you my exhaust that has a cat, if you are interested.

I did get a letter yesterday from them. They are requesting ne to pay $1220 in ad valorem tax in order to get the title (that is 7% of the appraised value). I expected that. The vin plate is "on the way" so hopefully I am nearing the end of the process

[RM1SepEx]

I've been agonizing over your bureaucratic tangle to get plates in Atlanta and you have my sympathy. But, if Dan thinks 3 weeks in Maine is good, Arizona is one visit to the DMV, no sales tax, no emissions test, no OBD2 test, leave with plates before lunch. OTOH, we pay more for lobster.

I could have paid xtra for quicker service, Craig only had to send in a few documents in Indiana....

[Hindsight]

My vin plate just showed up today in the mail.

I now need to rivet it to the car, have a cop fill out a new T22B form validating the vin is on the car and send it back to the state, and get emissions tested. After that, I will try going to the tag office and paying my tax and asking for a plate and tag. They will either give it to me or tell me I must wait until I have the title in-hand from the state. We shall see which is the case.....

[Mechie3]

I could have paid xtra for quicker service, Craig only had to send in a few documents in Indiana....

I had my plates before the car was even running. Haha!

[Hindsight]

Yeah yeah yeah ;)

On the bright side, we do have 10 months of convertible weather a year, although the pollen in spring is so bad that a 5 minute drive will coat every surface of the car, inside and out, with a very thick layer of pollen dust.

[Wayne Presley]

OOOOH, yellow pine pollen every where

[Hindsight]

Yeah, I assume you get it down where you are too eh Wayne?

I riveted my vin on and plan to go to emissions and the tag office tomorrow morning to see what happens. Fingers crossed.

[Wayne Presley]

Yep, very thick

[Hindsight]

So it appears that since the car is titled as a 2016, I won't need to pass emissions until 2018. Too bad I already spent all that time on an exhaust with a cat. Oh well... at least it will be ready for me down the line.

I found out today that I can get the title in person, saving 2+ weeks of delay. My insurance isnt showing up in the state database though so am trying to get that sorted with the insurance company. As soon as it is, I can get my title and plate.

[Hindsight]

I have my license plate in hand. Wow. Hard to believe I am finally street legal.

[Canadian818]

I have my license plate in hand. Wow. Hard to believe I am finally street legal.

Congratulations, that's the final big milestone!

[AZPete]

Congrats! Now put on some miles. and smiles.

[STiPWRD]

Awesome! Congratulations!

[wleehendrick]

I have my license plate in hand. Wow. Hard to believe I am finally street legal.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58610&d=1474039566

58610

[svanlare]

CONGRATS! Definitely time to celebrate!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I have my license plate in hand. Wow. Hard to believe I am finally street legal.

Great job,
How long until it's done?
Bob

[Hindsight]

Thanks for all the kind words everyone.

Bob, done? Never, of course! I do have a check-list of things that need to be wrapped up - stuff like finishing the interior and installing the splash guards, etc.

Via facebook, I found a impromptu car meet at 4:30 today at some park about 20 miles or so from where I live. I sweat out the heat and stop and go traffic for an hour to get there. There were probably 100+ people there and some pretty cool cars. I attached a pic of the 818 interest below.

I noticed something interesting while backing out of the garage and driveway today: The steering returns to center fairly well in reverse, just not when going forward! Seems strange.

http://i.imgur.com/9jM5vMjh.jpg

[wallace18]

Congrats! how many times did you get asked what is it?

[Hindsight]

About 25 at that event. Probably 100+ at the racing event at Road Atlanta the other weekend.

Most common are:
- Miata with a body kit
- S2000 with a body kit
- Lotus
- Alfa Romeo

75% of the people ask, "How much do you have in it?" I'm too embarrassed to admit that and need to come up with a better response. So far I just say, "too much" and tell them that most people have between $20k and $30k into theirs :rolleyes:

[Blwalker105]

Congrats Hindsight, nice job!

[Hindsight]

After driving it a lot yesterday and today, unfortunately the exhaust smell is still pretty bad in the cabin. Worse at speed. I believe it is getting swirled up directly from the exhaust tip as opposed to the engine bay because the odor changes nearly immediately when I punch the gas. I think the slip spoiler I have in the back probably worsens the swirling due to the low pressure area I'm sure it creates just behind it, which is above the exhaust.

I think Sealing the cabin isn't going to do anything to help. I think the only two options left are to try a rear diffuser to see if the low pressure area it creates results in the exhaust getting pulled down instead of up, or to do a side exit out the side of the rear bumper like on the blue R. Otherwise I am out of ideas. I need to fix this real quick though because it takes the fun out of driving it.

This is what I'm considering doing for a new exit. If I do this, it will be like the fourth exhaust system I have made :rolleyes:
http://i.imgur.com/SgRg0o0h.jpg

[Frank818]

This is what I'm considering doing for a new exit. If I do this, it will be like the fourth exhaust system I have made:rolleyes:


http://i.imgur.com/SgRg0o0h.jpg

If only you knew how many exhausts I've gone through on my Corrado. :)

First, finally you got that damn plate!! Your quest is over, now you're legal, you can go to the grocery with it. :)

Did you notice on the pic the vertical blade in the diffuser (what are they called anyway?) are CF. Mines are alu. :( That may be the 2nd gen diffuser, though.

Yeah try out the diffuser, it looks super cool on the car and maybe it'll help.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Frank.

The diffusers are just so expensive. I also feel like the diffuser should be wider than the one FFR makes.... why not go all the way across right? Channel all the air from under the car instead of just some. But I'm not an expert on that stuff. I am guessing the one in the pic is a gen2 because it is very new (it was built within the last few months I believe).

[Hindsight]

I took the dash out to loom the portions of the wiring harness that live under the dash. While it was out, I pulled the pedal cluster, disassembled it, and then drilled three new holes in the brake pedal. Two of the holes I drilled were so high that I couldn't do it with the pedal in the car, or even on the pedal cluster bracket. I drilled a hole 1" above the OEM hole, and another one 1.25" above the OEM hole. I drilled another about inch or so below the OEM hole. The next step will be to test out the top hole with the current 1" master cylinder for brake pedal feel. If it still isn't enough, I will swap out the 1" master cylinder for the 7/8" master. If that still isn't enough, I'll probably just throw the booster on and go power brakes, maybe using the new hole I drilled that sits below the OEM hole to try to offset some of the "touchiness".

http://i.imgur.com/SRWfuavh.jpg

[Frank818]

Your problem is that the brake pedal feel is very touchy?

[Hindsight]

No, the opposite. Too much pedal effort.

[Frank818]

Which is why you may reduce the piston's size, I get it. You will have to press further on the pedal but it's all a matter of finding the right equilibrium between how far you push (travel) and how hard you push. Exact same situation with the clutch, actually, a prob you don't have though.

[Hindsight]

Frank, that is all correct.

I spent this evening and yesterday working on this and believe I have come up with the perfect brake pedal hole location: 7/8" up from the OEM hole, center to center. I tried a whopping 1 1/4" and while the car was easy to stop, the brake pedal travel was too much and the brakes felt mushy. At 7/8", it feels like a great balance. I would like the pedal to be a bit more firm, but doing so would mean increasing effort. So I think 7/8" is the magic number. I am quite happy to have this behind me. Removing and replacing the pedal assembly with the windshield in place is a serious pain in the ***! I have done it twice now in two days. To get the 1 1/4" hole, I had to remove the brake pedal from the pedal cluster. I don't think you'd be able to drill the 7/8" hole without removing the pedal either, but you can just barely remove the pin at that hole height.

Before I claim total victory, I would like to run the car on the track again but as of right now, I'm quite happy with how the brakes feel.

[Frank818]

I wouldn't want ever to remove the pedal box. That and the fuel tank, I'll do anything to not remove. I hope I drilled my hole at the right place. I couldn't feel a prob when I tested the car, but I never went in 2nd gear and the brakes are fully new, still need to bed them in. It's cool though your solution was so simple, "just drill another hole and it'll work". :)

[Hindsight]

Put some more miles on the brakes. They are much, much better, but..... still not where I'd like them to be. Based on my testing, drilling a hole higher than where I am at now makes the brakes too spongy and there isn't enough travel, which means that moving to a smaller master cylinder would have the same exact effect. I am starting to hypothesise that the 06-07 WRX brakes have a lot of volume and you just can't get enough leverage and travel on calipers this size without a big master and a booster to help with the corresponding pedal effort. I'm beginning to think I will ultimately need to install the donor brake booster on my 818. I have read some say the brakes are "touchy" when doing that but I'd like to experience it myself, and if they are, I can try to offset that a little by going a little lower on the brake pedal hole (1/2" below OEM position, or so).

Took the day off yesterday to run some 818 errands. First up, going to the Subaru dealer to get a backup key coded to my ECU/Immobilizer. Worked great. Next up, I drove to a local auto upholstery shop and had a shift boot and e-brake boot made out of leather. I just have it laying in place in the car now.... I need to fabricate a bezel / trim ring for it. Then I swung by Top Speed Motorsports to show the guys there how the car turned out, and to get a weight on it. Weight is with a 100% full tank of fuel, no driver.

http://i.imgur.com/owb5OZnh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vqSIWKhh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/0Rki63Yh.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/Tu8M3A8h.jpg

[Sgt.Gator]

Check out the Chase Bays brake booster eliminator. There may be some info there that is helpful: http://www.chasebays.com/02-07-subaru-wrx-sti/

[Zach34]

I had stock fox-body mustang brakes in my roadster for a long time. I used an aftermarket manual-brake master cylinder from Jegs or some place that was advertised to replace the power brake booster/master (I suspect for drag racers looking to reduce weight). It was obviously a different diameter than stock, but I don't remember what it was. Anyway, the feel of those brakes was great - better than a lot of power-brake setups I've driven. Very little pedal travel, but you didn't have to stand on them at all. Overall effort was maybe 10-15% more than your average power brake setup. I changed to 6-piston Wilwoods in the front for the track, and while it was better, it wasn't a night-and-day improvement.

Those fox brakes were gigantic, cheapo single-piston deals.

Try a different master cylinder.

[Hindsight]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies. I do have a 7/8" master cylinder that will bolt right up (I have been running the stock 1" master from the donor car up to now).

Someone please correct me if my logic is wrong here: After testing several brake pedal hole positions, I found that going too high causes too much travel and not enough pedal feel. Essentially, you are just playing with work/force/distance. Wouldn't going to a smaller master accomplish the exact same thing as moving the pushrod hole higher? You are simply reducing the amount of fluid displaced for a given pedal distance, which gives greater leverage, no?

I'll definitely swap the master out if it would help. Sgt Gator, I checked out the link you sent me and they use a 7/8 master in that kit as well. So the question is: Is changing the master pushrod location effectively doing anything different from changing the master cylinder diameter?

[tmoretta]

By relocating the push rod higher aren't you changing the angle of the pushrod too? Might it bind in the cylinder, cause a leak etc?

[UnhipPopano]

question is: Is changing the master pushrod location effectively doing anything different from changing the master cylinder diameter?

You can answer this question both yes and no. While changing the mechanical leverage of the master cylinder is equivalent to changing the changing the relative sizes of the hydraulic pistons. When you move the attachment point on the pedal without moving the pedal up or down, you are adding an angle to where the pin is pushing on the cylinder, and that can reduce the effective force, as well as cause the hydraulic master to fail.

So long story short, it would probably work better to change the Master Cylinder out.

[Zach34]

question is: Is changing the master pushrod location effectively doing anything different from changing the master cylinder diameter?



Theoretically no, but as you point out there are other factors at play.

The amount the pedal travels is due to things like the distance the caliper pistons have to move to put the pad in contact with the rotor, any compressible air in the system, the compressibility of the brake fluid (very little), and the amount of flex in hoses, tubes, and caliper brackets.

[Frank818]

Your interior looks very cool. It looks very cool with the black screws on the inner door panels, never thought of that.
Did you come back home with the white Porsche? For some reason I believe not. You should have.

[Hindsight]

The Porsche on the lift in that pic is a GT4 Club Sport. Top Speed Motorsports has a lot of clients with some seriously deep pockets. Most of their business seems to be building 1000+ HP GTRs, and they are doing a lot of Porsches now as well. Still do some subies and some exotics also. Thanks for the kind words on the interior!

Back to the brakes, yes the pushrod is at a bit more of an angle but it isn't too bad and it certainly doesn't hit the opening. Replacing the master is such a pain due to dealing with brake fluid getting everywhere and working under the windshield cowl but I guess it can't hurt to try. I had to weld up the old hole in the brake pedal (drilled where FFR suggests) because it was a little close to the new hole I drilled so I will have to re-drill that hole again probably. But I think I am going to focus on some other things first since the brakes aren't as good as I want them to be but they aren't terrible now. I have plenty of other things that are terrible right now and need to be addressed before my next track day on October 21st.

[Hindsight]

I put in my order for Ohlins double adjustable coilovers. Very excited to have these on the car. I order to take all the measurements they need to calculate spring rates and valving, I had to set the vehicle to ride height and take a bunch of measurements. I went ahead and set the car to the full 4.5" ride height per the manual and ugh, it looks like crap! Looks like it is about to go off roading haha. My previous ride height was about 3 7/8" front and about 4" rear. The 3.5" R ride height is just too low for the street and I wouldn't make it over the bumps in my neighborhood. If I go 4" through coilover adjustment, then I'm sacrificing some suspension travel (of which the 818 does not have much of). The total stroke of the 818 shocks is only 3.75" (though effectively there is probably closer to 4 or 4.5" of total travel due to the motion ratio, but that's still not a lot of travel).

If anyone is interested in a set of these coilovers, fully spec'd out for the 818 (road racing specs), let me know. I have a buddy of mine who will be offering them through his business.

[metros]

I'm interested to see what specs the ohlins have to offer. Keep updating your thread with info on those.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I put in my order for Ohlins double adjustable coilovers. Very excited to have these on the car. I order to take all the measurements they need to calculate spring rates and valving, I had to set the vehicle to ride height and take a bunch of measurements. I went ahead and set the car to the full 4.5" ride height per the manual and ugh, it looks like crap! Looks like it is about to go off roading haha. My previous ride height was about 3 7/8" front and about 4" rear. The 3.5" R ride height is just too low for the street and I wouldn't make it over the bumps in my neighborhood. If I go 4" through coilover adjustment, then I'm sacrificing some suspension travel (of which the 818 does not have much of). The total stroke of the 818 shocks is only 3.75" (though effectively there is probably closer to 4 or 4.5" of total travel due to the motion ratio, but that's still not a lot of travel).

If anyone is interested in a set of these coilovers, fully spec'd out for the 818 (road racing specs), let me know. I have a buddy of mine who will be offering them through his business.

First let me say, that I would not even know where to begin selecting a shock absorber.
But I know this guy, CEO of Race Tech.
Watch this cool video of Paul.

http://www.racetech.com/page/id/78

[xxguitarist]

What spring rates did you wind up with from that exercise?

[Hindsight]

What spring rates did you wind up with from that exercise?

Haven't received that info from Ohlins yet. I just sent them all the measurements like motion ratio, corner weights, unsprung weights, current shock properties like stroke, etc. They plug all that into a computer and come out with the ideal spring rates and valving for your intended use (autocross, road racing, or street).

[Frank818]

3.75" of travel on Koni's shocks? I measured more like 3".

Picture on the web of those awesome Ohlins?
How did you measure motion ratio, unsprung weight and other stuff?
Since they will be FULLY adjustable, even they don't come up with the perfect valving and rates it should not matter cuz you can adjust them anyway, right?

Because of my quite different weight in the back I believe at some point I'll need a new set me too.

Mind sharing how much it cost ya? :o

[xxguitarist]

Haven't received that info from Ohlins yet. I just sent them all the measurements like motion ratio, corner weights, unsprung weights, current shock properties like stroke, etc. They plug all that into a computer and come out with the ideal spring rates and valving for your intended use (autocross, road racing, or street).

OK, understandable. Look forward to seeing what they come back with.


3.75" of travel on Koni's shocks? I measured more like 3".

Picture on the web of those awesome Ohlins?
How did you measure motion ratio, unsprung weight and other stuff?
Since they will be FULLY adjustable, even they don't come up with the perfect valving and rates it should not matter cuz you can adjust them anyway, right?

Mind sharing how much it cost ya? :o
Double adjustables still have limitations on how far you can adjust the damping. The Penske 7500DA on our RX8 are good for a +/- 100-200 lb spring rate range without a revalve, so you wouldn't want to necessarily have the stock valving.

[Frank818]

Yeah sorry I didn't mean that exactly, I meant that if measurements are wrong or Ohlins does it wrong, as long as it's inside the available adjustment it should be ok to find the perfect setup?

[Hindsight]

3.75" of travel on Koni's shocks? I measured more like 3".

Picture on the web of those awesome Ohlins?
How did you measure motion ratio, unsprung weight and other stuff?
Since they will be FULLY adjustable, even they don't come up with the perfect valving and rates it should not matter cuz you can adjust them anyway, right?

Because of my quite different weight in the back I believe at some point I'll need a new set me too.

Mind sharing how much it cost ya? :o

59111

Motion ratio: You measure from the inner control arm pivot point (the bolt), out to the lower shock bolt (measurement a), then out to the lower ball joint center (measurement b). Divide a/b and that is your motion ratio. Basically it defines what % your shock moves compared to the wheel. On a macpherson strut car, it's going to be 1:1 but on double wishbone, it will be less. And this is why you can't compare spring and shock rates between two cars with different suspensions because if their moment ratio is different, the effective spring and shock rates will be different too.

I measured unsprung weight by removing the upper shock bolt, putting the wheel and tire back on, and setting the tire on a scale. This captures the weight of the tire and all the suspension components. The shock stoke was measured by completely disassembling the coilovers, including removing the bump stop. I am guessing your measurement did not include removal of the bump stop which is why mine is higher.

I don't know the cost yet but I am guessing it will be over $3,000 and under $4,000.

[Frank818]

Man oh man that looks good! :)

They will fit directly without any changes, a perfect bolt-on swap?

You ordered from www.ohlinsusa.com (http://www.ohlinsusa.com)?

You're right, my 3" was with the bump stop on.

If I feel the Koni's aren't good for my build, I'm in for those custom Ohlins, man!


Can you install them and take a ride by this w-e? lolll Just kidding, you won't even have them yet. :)
We're all eager to see the results, though!

[xxguitarist]

59111

Motion ratio: You measure from the inner control arm pivot point (the bolt), out to the lower shock bolt (measurement a), then out to the lower ball joint center (measurement b). Divide a/b and that is your motion ratio. Basically it defines what % your shock moves compared to the wheel. On a macpherson strut car, it's going to be 1:1 but on double wishbone, it will be less. And this is why you can't compare spring and shock rates between two cars with different suspensions because if their moment ratio is different, the effective spring and shock rates will be different too.


Not to be too picky, but the motion ratio also depends on the angle of the shock body- ours are relatively upright, so it's not a big deal, but it's a relevant factor.
The other approach is to put the car on jack stands, remove springs, jack wheel up to near static height, measure shock length, jack up wheel 2" more (probably moving from somewhat drooped to somewhat compressed) and measure the shock length again. This way there's no trigonometry involved :-)

[Frank818]

Static height is the normal ride height?

[Hindsight]

Andrew - good point!

Frank, I am ordering them through a friend who gets them through a racing company. There is some engineering involved in sizing the springs and valving for the whole setup, and this is what the racing company does. They do come ready to bolt directly on to the car, fully assembled, yes. However, having said all that, the cost estimate I originally received and then what I was told yesterday for actual cost was way off. The actual cost is close to double what I mentioned above which is too rich for my blood. I still need to discuss it in more detail with them to determine what other options there are but at this point, I'm not sure I'll be going down this road. I will keep you posted.

[Mitch Wright]

I have been in discussions with RideTech (Fox Shocks) as a winter project for my car. Before I get serious I will be playing with the current spring shock set up this fall to have a good baseline. The car will be on track this weekend for the first time as a complete ride Saturday (if it doesn't rain) and Sunday.

[Frank818]

Oh man oh man, I'm not in either for 6-8k (+25% after stupid exchange rate for me).

Maybe in my case different springs from Koni would be enough, or just different springs and shocks, the closest to what would work best. Maybe that's also an option for you?

[Canadian818]

Springs are cheap, try different setups before spending crazy money. Also consider playing with your aerodynamics. If I'm not mistaken, you had no splitter or front aluminum installed on your track day? Also your bumpsteer hadn't been addressed yet? Almost everyone whose tracked they're cars have increased they're spring rates, especially in the rear.

[xxguitarist]

Hindsight, I'm sure there are other very good options, double adjustable, and appropriate for the car, at a much better price.
We can put you in touch with Angelo at Anze if you're interested in Penskes.

[Hindsight]

Frank, yeah there are other options that I will explore.

Adam, yeah I was planning on doing the bump steer and aero and updating the alignment at the same time I install the shocks and springs. Part of why I wanted to go with Ohlins is the distributor I was getting them from will do all the fancy math to determine the suspension frequency, ideal spring rates etc. But a second, less ideal yet cheaper option is to get stiffer springs, as you mentioned. That is what I was planning on doing originally but got excited about having a professionally calculated setup that was dual adjustable so I didn't have to do as much trial and error on my side.

Andrew, thanks for the input. My buddy is also a dealer for Penske and is working to price out a set of those for me as well. I'll see what he can dig up and go from there. Thanks again.

[Mitch Wright]

As has been said I recommend dialing in what you have to lock in a good baseline before spending money on parts that will put you in a situation of out tricking yourself and or chasing the car. Start with the basics:
Scale the car with the driver as it will hit the track.
Bumpsteering the car is a must.
Have a plus and minus adjustment for your starting alignment settings.
Get all your Aero on the car that you plan to start with if any. Ride height and rake will have some effect on aero performance.
Learn the car and the adjustments you have before making BIG changes and just make one change at a time.
Something like an AIM Solo has some basic data gathering capabilities/track mapping along with lap times that you can down load and overlay.
Basic rules for sorting out a car is one step at a time and make sure you can always go back to your best baseline, keep good records.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Mitch.

So I decided to take baby steps. I'm going to leave the front 350# springs in place, add in the front sway bar, swap the rear 275# springs out for 500# and swap the yellow Koni shocks for the Red Koni shocks that come on the R. I have all the parts and now just need to find time to do the install. I will also use the OEM eccentric bolt to set the camber (instead of using the a-arm), add shims to the LCA, adjust front and rear bump steer, and do another full alignment. I have a track day next Friday the 21st but am not sure I will be able to make it with all that to do.

[Canadian818]

I have all the parts and I have a track day next Friday the 21st but am not sure I will be able to make it with all that to do.

Not with that attitude you won't! Think positive, and get off the Internet, lol.

[Hindsight]

Hah, you are right! I am going to give it my best shot.

Had dental surgery today so I do have an internet excuse :) Not much else to do while on pain killers.

[Frank818]

But why increasing from 275 to 500 the rear? Was the rear way too soft?
Those red R shocks are double-adjustable, right?

[Hindsight]

Hey Frank. I basically just went with the R setup for both springs and shocks. I think the R uses 400# front vs my 350# front but it's close enough. The red R shocks are adjustable in rebound only, just like the street shocks. They have a dual adjustable setup as an upgrade but it's several thousand dollars and if I am spending that kind of money, I'd just go with Ohlins or Penskes.

[Frank818]

Ok let me think... You are swapping the front yellows for reds, the rear yellows for reds and the rear springs from 275 (S) to 500 (R).

What are you expecting to gain/fix by swapping out the shocks?
What are you expecting to gain/fix by swapping out the rear springs?

Sorry for those details, like I said I'm very very interested in what you're doing here as I know I will have to change something to my suspension as well, so I'm trying to understand the benefits you are targeting. :)

[Hindsight]

Hi Frank.

At the track, the car had a lot of body roll and I could feel it spending a lot of time hitting the bump stops in the corners. The springs are too weak for racing purposes. That is why the R model has stiffer springs. By adding the rear R springs, I will decrease body roll, but also increase the car's tendency to oversteer so I will balance that out by running the front sway bar.

The reason for the shock upgrade is that your shocks need to be matched to your springs. If you have ever tried going with stiffer springs on a car while keeping OEM shocks, you will have experienced the issue. I did this once on my Jetta GLI. I put H&R springs on it and left stock struts. Rode like crap. It was very bouncy and did not handle bumps well in corners at all. Shock valving is matched to spring rate, desired suspension frequency, and motion ratio. The R shocks are better matched to the R springs so that is what I'm running.

[RetroRacing]

We are 750 rear with 600 front and no over steer. 5 degree wing angle, and big rear diffuser. Bump your rebound up two clicks with the heavy spring rate

[Hindsight]

Wow 750/600! That's a lot of spring. Good to know it's working well for you. I don't have aero so I probably won't need to run as stiff as you are. Thanks for the input on the rebound.

[Frank818]

Jeff, you are changing your suspension to better suit track settings, right?
What are your expectations of the std yellow/softsprings setup for street?
And what are your expectations of your new red half R setup for street?

[Hindsight]

Frank, that is correct. I am ONLY making these changes because I'm focusing more on track performance than on street manners.

The soft yellow shocks work great for the street. If all I did was street driving, I would have left them in place. They work fine. The car does need a bump steer fix badly though, even for the street. And some more caster. But the shocks are ok.

As for the red R shocks on the street, (plus the stiffer R springs), they are going to make the ride a bit more harsh but I don't really care too much about it. I'll post my observations about driving the R setup on the street once it is installed. I doubt it's going to be punishing or painful, but will likely be a little stiffer. The fact that the front springs are the same, while rear springs are stiffer is probably going to make it less noticeable than going the other way around because there is a lot more weight in the rear to absorb into those springs.

[Frank818]

Ooooh ok I understand better!
By any chance do you know the spring rates of the Koni's double adjustable?

[Hindsight]

The koni double adjustables are just the shocks. You use them with the same springs as on the single adjustable R shocks. My understanding is that the valving on the two way adjustable shocks is the SAME as on the one-way adjustable shocks. The only difference is that the more expensive shocks allow you to adjust both compression and rebound and I think you can do them without removing them from the car but I could be wrong on that last point.

[Scargo]

I can add this, which may prove helpful:
818 spring rates that come in the 818R kit: 300# front, 500# rear
Rear motion ratio: .88
This probably goes without saying but Jim Schenck also said at one point, "If it is a serious track car though I would up the rates to compensate for the downforce at higher speeds." This would imply that the car would have aero.
Here's an evaluation by Anze of the FFR supplied custom red Koni. 59733
59734

[Hindsight]

That's awesome! I calculated the motion ratio correctly then.... I had 0.8182 front and 0.892 rear. It's difficult to measure!

I'm no good at reading shock dynos..... does it tell you anything, good or bad?

[Scargo]

The front motion ratio is .795; just found that info...
I am not very knowledgeable about shocks. Looks like a valving number of around 6.5~7 for compression and the rebound adjustable for higher (stiffer) numbers. I just can't comment on what the data means except that the curves are pretty flat which means the transition from low speed to high speed resistance is slow and smooth. Shock design and tuning is not simple and one size does not fit all, even when the use is road racing. Factors such as spring rates and sway bars have a profound effect and also variations in tuning for smooth or rough tracks and how much aero you have come into play.

[Hindsight]

I spent some time in the garage today and plan on spending all day tomorrow too.

The first thing I tackled was modifying the FFR-provided spindle bracket so I can use the eccentric bolt. I am hoping this will allow me to get all the negative camber I need without using much of the upper a-arm adjustment, which in turn will help me get more caster. To accomplish this, I welded on some steel plates to the outside of the upper holes in the bracket, and then drilled them out to different sizes. The one on the left side is 14mm which is the OD of the narrow part of the bolt, and the right side is drilled out to 19mm which is required to allow the bolt to wobble around it's adjustment. It was difficult to pick a spot to center the holes, but I was able to get it right. It will be interesting to see if I get the camber I need, based on my new hole center. A picture would make this much easier to understand and I will post one up tomorrow.

Also need to add the caster spacer for the lower control arm but the rear of the lower control arm is VERY difficult to access once that rear splash panel and the belly panel are in place. Going to have to remove the belly panel at minimum. To fix the bending in the lower control arm front bushing, I need to replace it with a spherical bearing but man those things are expensive at like $450!

Sway bar is mounted to the frame and I will wait until the coilovers are back in place to see if I have clearance issues.

[Hindsight]

Here are some pics of the spindle bracket modification I did so I could use the OEM eccentric bolt to get camber from the bracket instead of using the upper a-arms. One side of the bracket is drilled to 14mm and the other side is drilled to 19mm. This allows the small side of the eccentric bolt to stay fixed and just rotate, while it allows the cam to wobble around a full 360 degree arc. I could slot the bracket instead but I'm going to see if I can get enough camber and caster like this first.

It seems like the sway bar might not hit anything but hard to tell yet. The shape of the bar is certainly not ideal.

Paging Frank: I made a video for you so you could see how the eccentric bolt adjustment works. You turn the head of the bolt, which makes the lobe of the bolt move. The hole in the bracket is larger than the bolt on one side, and the exact size of the bolt on the other. The hole in the spindle itself is exactly the size of the large side of the bolt. So the spindle follows the bolt wherever you turn it. With this setup, I am getting around, or just over half a degree of camber adjustment. On street tires, I expect to run -0.75 to -1.0 degrees of camber so that should help a lot. When you watch the video, note how the spindle moves inward and outward compared to the bracket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUOq6wtXHFo

I tried playing with the bump steer gauge but it was really pointless because I have no idea where 0" of suspension travel starts. I won't know that until the new coilovers are on and I can get the car back down on the ground and set the ride height. Then I can create a reference point for 0" of travel and begin measuring and correcting bump steer. I will try correcting the bump steer with the Baer kit alone at first and if that fails, I'll drill out the spindle like the R guys do.

Caster shims were made today and installed on the lower control arms but am now waiting for longer M12-1.25 bolts to arrive (not an easy item to find!).


http://i.imgur.com/FEXLcENh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/GpcXJP8h.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/SncYVarh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/QQmUeN5h.jpg

[Canadian818]

Good work, really curious how this all works out for you. The eccentric bolt idea might be extremely helpful to all those that are unable to get enough caster/camber.

[Frank818]

The front motion ratio is .795; just found that info...

Reds or Yellows?
Is the motion ratio dependent on weight?



Paging Frank: I made a video for you so you could see how the eccentric bolt adjustment works. You turn the head of the bolt, which makes the lobe of the bolt move. The hole in the bracket is larger than the bolt on one side, and the exact size of the bolt on the other. The hole in the spindle itself is exactly the size of the large side of the bolt. So the spindle follows the bolt wherever you turn it. With this setup, I am getting around, or just over half a degree of camber adjustment.

Yeah that's pretty awesome!
That 0.5deg is added to what you could get before or total end result? I mean let's say you could get 0.25 before, now you get 0.75?

[Hindsight]

Hey Frank, the motion ratio is a factor of the suspension design and not the springs or the struts. Basically it just means what percentage does the shock and spring move when compared to the wheel hub. Looking at the 818, you can see the spring and shock are inboard of the hub. That means if the hub moves up one inch, the shock and spring are actually moving up LESS than an inch. On a car with Macpherson struts, generally it is 1:1, but on double wishbone like the 818, there is usually some kind of ratio. This ratio is why you can't really compare spring and shock rates between cars with different suspensions because the actual affect the springs and shocks have is completely dependent on this ratio.

On the camber, there is no adjustability in the spindle bracket as it comes from FFR. All the camber is set from the upper a-arm. So this allowed me to get a full half degree of negative camber. I could slot the holes and get more adjustment but I wanted to keep things as tight as possible here. I'm paranoid about camber changes from hitting curbs at the track if I open the holes more.

[Frank818]

Ha, that's a nice explanation. In other words the motion ratios F/R for both R's and S's are the same? If I recall the only diff between R and S is the ride height, although I am not sure the different height frame bolts used would affect the ratio.

For the camber I meant what did you gain with the camber bolt? You are now at full half deg so you gained less than 0.5 or you were at dead 0 before and now you are at 0.5?

[Hindsight]

Correct, the motion ratio should be the same on the F vs the R. The geometry is the same between the two... the suspension components are still the same relative to eachother, they are just bolted to the body in a way that allows the body to sit an inch lower.

I hear your question on the camber. Previously I was able to get about -0.6 degrees of negative camber. That is entirely with the upper a-arm adjustment. I wanted about -1 degree. I couldn't go further with the camber because doing so would mean reducing caster. I haven't checked how much actual camber I will be able to get with this new setup so I can't answer your question just yet but my hope is that I can hit a full degree of negative camber while also hitting over 6 degrees of caster. I won't know that until all the suspension mods are done, car is on the ground, ride height is set, and I start doing the alignment. Might get to that this week or this weekend; we'll see.

[Frank818]

Correct, the motion ratio should be the same on the F vs the R. The geometry is the same between the two...

In order that people don't get mixed up with F and R, which I previously mentioned, I believe you meant "S and R" for 818S and 818R and not "same ratio for Front and Rear". :)




I hear your question on the camber. Previously I was able to get about -0.6 degrees of negative camber. That is entirely with the upper a-arm adjustment. I wanted about -1 degree. I couldn't go further with the camber because doing so would mean reducing caster. I haven't checked how much actual camber I will be able to get with this new setup so I can't answer your question just yet but my hope is that I can hit a full degree of negative camber while also hitting over 6 degrees of caster. I won't know that until all the suspension mods are done, car is on the ground, ride height is set, and I start doing the alignment. Might get to that this week or this weekend; we'll see.

That seems promising. The mod wasn't that difficult to realize, right?

[tmoretta]

Can someone remind me of the procedure to adjust Koni (yellow) shock dampening?

[Hindsight]

Frank - the mod wasn't difficult no. I welded on a plate to re-locate the holes, but you could simply take a die-grinder in there and just slot them out. Then you swap the FFR provided upper bolt out for the WRX OEM eccentric bolt.

tmoretta: Pull the dust cover off the shock and you'll see a little button. Press it with your finger, then rotate the piston all the way counter clockwise until it stops. That's full loose. Release the button. You might need to turn the piston a hair clockwise to get the button to release back up. To tighten the rebound, do the same thing but turn the piston clockwise. You will feel it click at each of the four adjustment positions. You don't need to compress the shock when doing this.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Can someone remind me of the procedure to adjust Koni (yellow) shock dampening?


tmoretta: Pull the dust cover off the shock and you'll see a little button. Press it with your finger, then rotate the piston all the way counter clockwise until it stops. That's full loose. Release the button. You might need to turn the piston a hair clockwise to get the button to release back up. To tighten the rebound, do the same thing but turn the piston clockwise. You will feel it click at each of the four adjustment positions. You don't need to compress the shock when doing this.

Here is the Koni instructions:
http://www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAmerica/Technology/Adjustment-Guides/

And the video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s06VVtZPczQ

[Frank818]

tmoretta: Pull the dust cover off the shock and you'll see a little button. Press it with your finger, then rotate the piston all the way counter clockwise until it stops. That's full loose. Release the button. You might need to turn the piston a hair clockwise to get the button to release back up. To tighten the rebound, do the same thing but turn the piston clockwise. You will feel it click at each of the four adjustment positions. You don't need to compress the shock when doing this.

Are those for the red R shocks?
Cuz for the yellow S, I only removed the bump stop then compressed the shock completely and turned it whichever way. There were 3 (not 4) click adjustments. Not a very good way to adjust as it wasn't that obvious to know in which click I was. Maybe cuz I wasn't used to it but that's the thing, it's easier when you get practice.

Like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONl44FPP6lM

[Hindsight]

I know for sure on the red R shocks, you don't have to compress them. It could be that you do have to compress the yellow shocks.... I don't know that I've ever tried adjusting those. I agree it's not a great way to have to adjust them. That's part of why I wanted those nice expensive Ohlins. Two-way adjustable and you can do them on the car by just turning a couple knobs.

There are three clicks, but that's four positions: The position you are currently in, plus three more (assuming you started all the way to one side).

[Frank818]

I don't think there is a button on the yellow shocks. Forgot to check this morning but I don't remember that at all.
Tim (or Tom), do you have the red or yellow?

[Hindsight]

Frank, you are right. I had already swapped out one of the yellows for the reds so I was able to check it this morning. For the yellow Konis, you have to push it all the way in and then turn. The reds have the button. This makes the yellows even more difficult than the reds to adjust since you need to remove the top and the bump stop.

[Frank818]

Yes it is a pain to adjust the yellows. Such a long process for "testing" the rebound adjustment, best wish is to get it right first time, which Im sure usually is not. Was so much easier with my Bilstein PSS-9s. :)

[Hindsight]

Spent the day working on the alignment and bump steer.

Really scratching my head on the bump steer. From what I have read, you want zero, or at worst, some toe-OUT under compression. The issue I seem to be having is that I get some toe in on compression which then turns to toe out as compression increases. If I shim the tie rod end down enough that I only get toe OUT under compression, then I get a lot more toe-out than I would like by 2" of compression travel (0.138" toe out). I believe this means that the tie rods need to be shortened or lengthened, which will turn out to be a much bigger issue than I was hoping to take on right now.

[Frank818]

What have the others do about this? Some, or many, installed the baer kit but did they do more like longer/shorter rods?

[Pearldrummer7]

I didn't do the Baer kit, I did a DIY one like Rasmus (here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14526-818R-Baer-Bumpsteer-Install-Guide&p=155567&viewfull=1#post155567)). I don't have noticeable bump steer, if any (red Konis, same control arms as you).

I love the lobed bolt idea for adjustment there!

[Hindsight]

Frank (Frank818), I don't think anyone else has actually measured bump steer, with the exception of Bob but he has a lot of mods to his suspension making the comparison not apples-apples and I believe I saw a post that mentioned there may have been an issue with the way he measured it. I dunno - maybe if he's reading he can chime in but bottom line is that aside from Bob, I think everyone who did the bump steer mods simply added spacers to the length that FFR suggested, but then did not actually measure the bump steer to see how much they have.

Frank (Pearldrummer): When you made your own kit, did you measure the bump steer or just use the length that FFR suggested?

[Mitch Wright]

I have measured bumpsteer using my Longacre gauge a few times now as I play with set up options. Checking and setting bumpsteer on these cars makes a huge difference in my opinion. As Wayne has stated a few times on the forum and I have found to be very true is the cars are really toe sensitive, I was able to get the bumpsteer change to .010 over a 3" stroke 1" drupe from static and 2" compression front and rear.

[Hindsight]

Mitch thank you! Are your toe changes always in one direction on compression, meaning, you get toe-out only or toe-in only, or does it change direction? Did you do anything aside from playing with tie-rod end shims?

[Mitch Wright]

Yes I will have to dig out my notes to see particulars.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Mitch, I would really appreciate that. I'm very interested in that, and also what you got in compression vs rebound. I can get compression to within .015" within the first two inches of travel, but it's toe in at first and then moves to toe out which I think is unacceptable. Also, when shimmed to get that .015", I'm getting a quarter inch of toe out at 2" of droop. So very curious to see what your numbers look like.

[Mitch Wright]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?15436-My-818R-Project-has-arrived/page4 #150 is what I posted after bumpsteering the front and rear. I have the static ride height at 3.5" front and 3.75 rear

[Frank818]

Wow there's even a way to measure bump steer, other than driving feeling. Again I'm still learning! Tnx Jeff. And Mitch.

[Mitch Wright]

I don't believe based on past experiences you won't see 2" of drupe from static ride height.

[Hindsight]

Wow thanks Mitch.... .007 over 3" of travel is fantastic. I hope I can get mine that close. I'm working on it again tonight and will see where I get with it.

[Hindsight]

Well something isn't right. I'm not entirely sure what but I can't get anywhere near where I need to be. My chart is below. Negative numbers mean toe-in, positive means toe-out. Note that with 41mm of shim, the bump steer changes from toe-out to toe-in over the 2" of compression. Looking at this data, to my novice eye, it would appear that the tie rod is too long. I say that because with 46mm of shim, I'm basically getting toe-out across the entire range of motion, both in compression and in droop. I could effectively shorten the tie-rod by adding a spacer between the rack and the inner tie-rod end, then threading the outer tie rod end inward to compensate for that, but I don't feel like I should need to do that. The only funky thing I've done with my front suspension is to add those caster shims on the lower control arm. I only have 4.8 degrees of caster now but it is the only thing I can think of that would be affecting this. So I guess I will take the time to undo all the work I just did to add those shims in, then re-align everything and see if the bump steer is any better.

http://i.imgur.com/AYWXonQh.jpg

One thing I find very strange about the suspension geometry on the 818 is that there appears to be no instant center.... IE the point in space where a line drawn down the upper a-arm and the lower a-arm would meet. This is because at ride height, the upper a-arm is basically horizontal. Maybe I'm not understanding it correctly. Here is a pic of what I'm talking about though:
60654

[Hindsight]

Spoke with Jim Schenk this morning. He was very helpful!

So it seems my understanding was correct, based on my findings above, the tie rod is in fact too long. The 818 R corrects this by changing the control arm mounting locations which effectively "lowers" the rack which adjust the geometry such that by also adding some spacer shims to the outer tie rod, you can get good bump steer numbers. You can't do that on the S. This means my best option is going to be shortening the tie rods. The best way to do that is going to be to add a spacer to each side of the steering rack, where the inner tie rod connects. I have to figure out the amount of distance I need, and will do that by turning the steering wheel a half inch at a time, while checking bump steer every half inch. Then I will try to find a rack extender that has the right length, and the right thread pitch for the Subaru. If I can't find one, I'll have to have something custom made by someone with a lathe.

[Frank818]

Your ground clearance is very low, right?
I was under the impression that for an S with 4.5" ground clearance bump steer was not a "noticeable" issue. Do you think that statement is still true?
Just want to make things to perspective if you run a low ground clearance.


I don't understand when you say you'll ADD spacers in the rack. This will not shorten the rods, it will extend them.


Happy election day!

[Hindsight]

Hi Frank, I run 4.5" ground clearance all the way around. S ride height.

And no, I would say that bump steer on the S is very noticeable, at the S ride height! I never measured it with the factory tie-rod end, but the baer kit with 25mm of spacer should simulate stock. With that setup I was getting a total of 1/4" of toe-in at 2" of compression, and 1/4" of toe-out at 1" of droop. That is not good. Shimming the outer tie rod away from the spindle will not fix the issue of having tie rods that are too long.

So "shortening" the tie rods is cryptic. What I really mean is that the inner pivot point of the tie rod (where the inner tie rod has that pivot swivel joint) needs to move OUTWARD. Of course, if you do this, the outer tie rod end is going to move out too, but you compensate for that by screwing the outer tie rod end inward so you get back to zero toe (or whatever amount of static toe-in you want to run), which effectively shortens the tie rod. Another way of saying this is that you want to increase the width of the steering rack. When you add spacers, you add them to the rack, then you screw the inner tie rod on to that, and then you have to absorb this change on the outer end by screwing the outer tie rod end further inward. If you run out of depth on the outer tie rod to do this, or you run out of threads on the tie rod itself, you will have to cut more threads into the outer tie rod and also cut it down in length a bit. Or you could the tie rod in the middle, remove an inch or two of length from one of the halves, then inert the halves into a steel sleeve (tight fit) and then weld them to the sleeve, effectively making your tie rod shorter.

I hope my explanation makes sense. I'm going to work on it this weekend and see what the idea tie rod length is.

[Frank818]

Oh f-ing crap!!!!!!! :(
I thought you were like 3" from the ground, ya know like those super lowered Jettas loll
Why did we (the forum) catch this 3 years after chassis #001...

Yeah I get it, you shorten the rod end and extend the rack pivots so that the final length is the same but with shorter rods.

I like the sleeve idea, I like that very much. You can keep the same amount of threads on the ends. It's just the spacers inside the rack, I can't picture that very well at the moment.

Hopefully you'll have plenty of pix to share with, that's a mod I'll have to follow.

[ben1272]

This is about as clear as mud to me! No offense meant to your explanation, I am sure it is fine if you have some clue about suspensions to begin with (I dont).

If this bumpsteer issue is real, and I have no reason to believe builders are making it up, then why has Factory Five not issued some sort of correction 3 years out? Surely they must be aware of it? I hope they are working a solution. In the mean time, and as usual, thanks to the trailblazers.

It would be great if someone in engineering from FFR would weigh in on a recommendation.

[Frank818]

Surely they must be aware of it? I hope they are working a solution.
It would be great if someone in engineering from FFR would weigh in on a recommendation.

I believe that's what Jim did this morning when Jeff spoke with him. The recommendation is to build our own bump steer kit by shortening the rods.

[Hindsight]

Ben, they did add steering rack extenders on the mark4 Roadster. I think it is just too early on the 818 I guess... perhaps in the future they will add them. I think part of the reason they haven't done so yet is that it is only an issue on the "S" and not the "R" and the R guys are going to be the ones more sensitive to bump steer. Probably a number of S guys have never even noticed the issue. You can certainly drive with bump steer.... many classic cars from the 60's had GOBS of it.

An easier way to think about this is that the steering rack ideally needs to be wider. You can't buy a wider rack though. So you buy spacers that you bolt on to the ends of the rack. The ends of the rack are male threaded. The spacers have female threads on one end and male threads on the other. You screw the female end of the spacer onto ends of the steering rack (which are male). Now your screw your tie rods onto the spacers. You just changed two things: 1. Your tie rods are sticking out further toward the outside (which you will need to correct in order to get both front tires pointed straight ahead again), and 2. The balljoint on the inner end of the tie rod is further toward the outside of the car. #2 is what fixes the bump steer. You don't need to understand why this is required (I can explain it if you are interested though - has to do with the arc of the tie rod matching the arc of the a-arms through the suspension travel), you just need to know that it is what is needed.

Jim said the extensions might need to be around 2" but looking at my tie rods, I only have about an inch and a half of thread left. I was thinking I could cut more threads in but that won't work because tie rods stop being round there. My options will be to cut the Baer outer tie-rod end short, or do the splice thing I mentioned above. I won't know until I know how much spacer I need. I think I'm more inclined to cut the baer tie rod ends short. It would be far easier than cutting and welding the tie rods shorter and ensuring they stay perfectly straight, and it is also something other forum members could easily replicate (without a welder). I'm pretty sure the baer tie rod end is aluminum so it can be cut on a regular chop-saw for woodworking. That's what I cut all my aluminum on.

[Hindsight]

I believe that's what Jim did this morning when Jeff spoke with him. The recommendation is to build our own bump steer kit by shortening the rods.

Frank, that is correct. He was nice enough to talk with me for like a half hour. He mentioned some other options, like raising the mounting point of the lower control arm but not the upper control arm, but that would change camber gain and roll-center. I think the "right" way to fix the issue is with rack extenders. I will have a full pictorial up if I get it all sorted out. I'm already talking with a forum vendor on making the custom rack extender parts (in case none in the aftermarket are currently available which seems to be the case due to the metric thread size and pitch of the Subaru rack). If all goes well, the fix will be fairly simple: 1. Install rack extenders, 2. Get the baer subaru bump steer kit, cut the threaded adjuster tube down an inch or so (will provide exact number later), then install it with x inches of spacer shims. That should be it.

[Frank818]

I think I guess who the forum vendor is. lolll

If no one went that far into a bump kit for the S it may be cuz the people could live with it or didn't know it had any.
What are the gains of a no bumpsteer rack? Tire wear gain I guess. And you don't fight with the steering under bumps? For example you hit a bump, it steers right, you correct left. With your kit, you hit a bump, it stays straight.

[Hindsight]

Frank, correct on all accounts. Without bump steer correction, the tires bump about 1/4" toe-in on compression, and 1/4" toe out on droop. I wont' be the forum vendor for this though.... the part requires a metal lathe, which I don't have.

[Frank818]

I am thinking about someone else.

1/4" each tire or total toe (1/8" each)?

[ben1272]

Frank, correct on all accounts. Without bump steer correction, the tires bump about 1/4" toe-in on compression, and 1/4" toe out on droop. I wont' be the forum vendor for this though.... the part requires a metal lathe, which I don't have.

Is your suspension assembled exactly as per FFR instructions, or have you changed tire sizes, added spacers, altered A-arm geometry, etc?

[Hindsight]

Frank, 1/8" per tire.

Ben, suspension setup on mine is stock except for a caster shim at the rear of the lower control arm but I don't think that will cause this issue and Jim said the same thing.

[RM1SepEx]

Craig has already made rack extenders for those of us with early frames where the rack wasn't positioned correctly. IIRC they are 1.1 inches long because the rack was off .55 towards the driver's side of the car. 2 inch spacers will mean you need new rack bellows as the existing one barely makes it. Or you could reduce rack travel with limiters since tire clearance is an issue.

60702

[svanlare]

I very much appreciate the work on this. The first alignment I did was just ride height and a static toe/caster/camber all around. I was wondering if dynamic toe was going to be worth the effort and it certainly looks like it.

[Mitch Wright]

Well worth the effort front and rear, will trans form the car.

[tmoretta]

What thickness of LCA caster shim is most effective? Does it angle the arm so much as to distort the bushings?

[Hindsight]

Dan, great to know about Craig's extendeds! Once I find the exact optimal length for the S ride height, I will check in with him on it.

[Hindsight]

Tmoretta, I used a 1/4" caster spacer. ANY spacer distorts the front bushing.

Dan, I forgot to ask: do you know of any source for longer bellows that have the correct end diameters?

[DrunkenSailor]

I don't know if it helps, but there is a website that will calculate the length needed once you enter a lot of the variables (all of the lengths and angles)

www.vsusp.com

[Hindsight]

Ok, I have spent like 30 hours on this bump steer thing and I'm about over it :confused:

I was only able to simulate 2" of rack extension (by turning the steering wheel and then taking up the distance on the outside end with the baer threaded tube nut). I also removed my rear caster shim and found that the bump steer got worse when I did.... I think it is because moving the back of the lower control arm outward effectively shortens the tie rod (which is what we need) by moving the spindle forward and inward. After removing the caster shim, I added as much negative camber as I could get using my eccentric camber bolt, and then added as much length to the forward arm of the upper control arm. I ended with -0.65 degrees of camber and I couldn't test caster due to all the other things I had going on. At 2 of rack extension, you have to cut the Baer tube nut down 10mm and you have to remove the jam nut too. It just barely fits. So for 2" and definitely for 2.5", you will need to cut off probably 20-30mm of the inner side of the tube nut and this will also require you to cut a 10-20mm off of your tie rod as well or else it will hit the end if your rod-end which screws into the other side of the tube nut. I didn't want to test a 2.5" spacer because it would have meant cutting 30mm of my tube nut and also cutting my tie rod down and once I did that, I'd be past the point of no return (or I'd have to buy another Baer kit and a new tie rod).

With the above setup, there were my numbers:
2" .0272
1.5" .0152
1" .0062
.5" .0011
0" 0
-.5" .0058
-1" .0192

That is all toe-out which is the direction you want. Since it is toeing out in both compression and rebound, that means the tie rod is still too long. So I would guess a rack spacer that is right around 2.5" in length is what would be needed to get it closer to zero bump. Maybe even 3", but 2.5" should get it close enough because the numbers above are pretty decent.

It was really hard to do this accurately. I probably checked the bump steer for 20 different configurations. There are just so many variables... the hardest one being that every time you adjust something with the suspension, you SHOULD re-adjust your static toe alignment before checking the bump steer again but this is nearly impossible to do quickly and easily and would have more than quadrupled my time. I did check it a few times but after a while started just eyeballing whether or not the front wheel was straight. Certainly this affected the accuracy but I feel the numbers are close enough to determine what length of spacer is needed.

So now I/We have to make a choice:
1. Stick with just using the Baer shims and deal with the bump steer that is there. This isn't terrible because the bump steer is in toe-out, and most OEMs design a certain amount of bump-out into their suspension, though I'm sure it isn't as much as I am getting on my 818S. Jim said they checked a Porsche and it was 4 degrees of bump out per inch of suspension travel. Anyway, if this is all I do, it will still drive better than before because it isn't bumping-out and then transitioning to bumping in, like it was without the Baer shims.
2. Have one of the forum vendors (or a machine shop) make us some 2.5" rack extensions. This will require longer tie rod boots and I have no idea where to even start searching for long tie rod boots (they are 1.75"ID on the inside end and about 0.5"ID on the outside end). Would have to find the boots before moving forward. And it would require cutting the tie rods short and probably cutting the Baer tube nuts short too.
3. Move the suspension to the 818R holes and run 3.5" ride height. You can get nearly 0 bump steer with that setup (and the bump steer shim kit)

#3 is out of the question for me since I drive on the street, so it's really #1 or #2. Anyone know where I could find longer tie rod boots that would fit?

[Frank818]

Wow that didn't seem easy.

What is "4-deg" of the bump out? 4/16?

[Hindsight]

I don't really know..... but I read somewhere that they way you are supposed to do alignments is by degrees, not by inches. Because inches are variable based on where you take them from. So say 1/16" toe-in is spec for static alignment.... where is that from? The outer tire tread? The rim? It's too variable. X degrees is X degrees. So I guess you could calculate how much toe out 4 degrees is with some math.... the tire is, say, 24.5" diameter. Half of that is 12.25, and using that in a right triangle calculator with 4 degrees, I get 0.855 inches which can't be right.... I just checked my notes and Jim said 0.42 degrees, not 4. That would be about 0.085 inches of toe-out at the tread... just a hair over 1/16", per inch of bump. Seems like a lot. I've heard you want zero, or less than 0.04 total.

[Frank818]

Hey you edited the first part of your post where you said you'd knew I would ask that question. lolll

Degrees make sense now, but are they really needed on a street car or can we live with distance (inches, for example)?

So those Porsches have a lot of bump steer, then?

[Hindsight]

Hah, Frank, I guess I worried you might have been offended by my dumb joke.

Degrees are the most accurate.... but for us I don't think it matters. As for Porches having a lot of bump steer.... technically you could say yes but just because it has a calculated amount of bump steer in the ideal direction doesn't mean the car "bump steers" on the road. The 818 cycles through toe-in and toe-out, both, under compression which means as the suspension loads up (like in a turn or braking), the tire will first turn in and then start turning out (or the other way around, I forget) which makes it feel very unsettled. You want consistent toe-out in both directions, or zero in both directions.

OK - I finally drove the car with the new setup today:
- Bump steer corrected as good as I can get it with just the Baer bump steer kit and it's shims. I have 0.0356 toe-out at 2" of compression and 0.0549 toe-out at 1" of droop, and it's the same on both sides. Those numbers are ok but I'd like to see them better. Hopefully I can work with someone on the rack spacers which should fix it completely.
- Front sway bar installed
- Extended the front of the upper a-arms as far as I felt was safe (while having enough thread in the tubes). I was able to get 5.6 degrees of caster with just that, and the "free caster mod" in the back, but without using the caster shim in the back.
- Set to -0.65 camber (basically same as I ran before)
- Set toe alignment to 1/16" toe-in (same as I ran before)
- New 500# rear springs and new 818R Koni shocks all the way around.

The results: WOW. It really does drive like a new car. First of all, the twitchy feeling of the car is completely gone. I can slam bumps at any speed and the car just tracks straight ahead. I used to have to be very quick on the steering but now I can drive it hands-free for a while, even over bumps. This surprised me a bit, since I couldn't get the bump steer numbers exactly where I wanted them but the numbers I did get were a big improvement from stock and it certainly reflects in the driving. It doesn't follow the grooves in the roads anymore and when I brake hard, it doesn't dart to the left and the right like it did before. It also has good return-to-center on the steering, which I didn't have before. I think I either measured the caster incorrectly before, or it needs more than the 3 or 3.5 that I had in it.

The ride is firmer in the back but not overly. It feels great on the street - not too stiff. I may up the front springs a bit since it seems a little bouncy... probably always was but I feel it more now that the rear isn't bouncy too. But before I do that, I want to take it through some corners to see how it handles (under/over steers).

If I get rack spacers, it is going to be a PAIN removing the tie rods from the rack. There is just no good way to get a wrench on the inner tie rod ends when the car is put together. I think the only way to do it is to drain the coolant and remove the radiator.

http://i.imgur.com/vbzEM2eh.jpg

[Mitch Wright]

It is really worth the time and really makes the car fun to drive. Were you able to do the rear as well? The rear improvement really made a big difference on corner entry confidence. Are you set up at R or S ride height?

[Hindsight]

Hi Mitch, I still need to do the rear. I did use a digital angle gauge across the lower lateral links to ensure they were parallel, earlier in the build, but I did not yet check it with my bump steer gauge. When you did yours in the rear, did you go for 0, or did you go for a little bump-in on compression? If bump-in, how much?

I am at S ride height since I drive it on the street. Would love to run at R height but anything under 4" and I won't make it past the first speedbump in my neighborhood.

[Lumpyguy]

I am going to buy the baer bump steer kit but if people could post there final numbers for caster camber toe on the front and there feelings of how the car drives. I know everyone is different but there should be some common numbers everyone seems to agree on for best street performance.

[Mitch Wright]

The rear was really easy, I got as close to zero as I could and set static toe in

[Hindsight]

Cool thanks Mitch. I will try to get to it today and if not, next weekend. I just can't believe how much better the car drives like this. It is SO much safer and more relaxing and pleasurable to drive.

Lumpyguy, I will start a thread for Bump Steer and post all my findings for the "S" since so far, the only others who have posted have done it for the R which is very different. But at this point, I feel my alignment settings are good:
Front: -0.65 degrees camber, 5.8 degrees caster, 1/16" toe in.
Rear: 3/16" toe-in, -.75 degrees camber
I might add more front camber but will need to track the car and check tire temps before making any changes.

For bump steer, with the Baer kit, I ended up needing 46mm of shim on the LF and 47.5mm of shim on the RF, but that is with me drilling out the spindles and using a 5/8" bolt like the R guys do. In hindsight (hah), I didn't actually need to do that - the Baer kit would allow around 50-55mm of shims while still using the nice taper bolt it comes with. I wish I had not drilled out my spindles but I needed to in order to test longer shim lengths than the taper bolt allows. But for the rest of you 818S guys who haven't done this yet, don't drill your spindles. What I can't remember is how much shim you can get when you stack ALL the Baer kit's shims together. If you don't get enough shims with the kit, buy this from McMaster: https://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/122/3284/=150tsv0 That will get you an inch of shim and you can add the Baer shims to it to get it just right.

[UnhipPopano]

"The ride is firmer in the back but not overly. It feels great on the street - not too stiff. I may up the front springs a bit since it seems a little bouncy... probably always was but I feel it more now that the rear isn't bouncy too. But before I do that, I want to take it through some corners to see how it handles (under/over steers). "

Are you talking about changing the springs or the shock settings. The instructions are to set the settings at the lowest setting and then increase it. While no instructions are provided on this, by increasing this setting it should feel less "Bouncy". Are your shocks set to this initial value, or have you already dialed them up to the max setting?

Also, if you are going to use the car for Track, you might think about upgrading them to allow for adjusting both the Bump and Rebound.

[Hindsight]

I'm talking about possibly changing the springs but you are right in that I may also need to adjust the shocks. I have the red konis and I set them all to full loose to start with. I definitely wanted to get dual adjustable shocks and I priced out a set of Ohlins but it was just more than I wanted to spend right now.

[Frank818]

Ok a lot here, so much I won't bother quoting.

HAHAHA no worries Jeff, I wouldn't have been offended, in fact I found it cool. Myself said it to a few of you.

I was so amazed when I read your post about test driving!!! :) And so happy you did it! You made it and found what to do to completely change the car! It's those small details people never hear about that make the biggest change.

I'm a bit confused as to what you have changed from stock FFR parts...

Can we recap again? I definitely need to follow that.

- Front stock S Koni springs (350 I think)
- Front stock yellow Koni shocks at softest setting
- Bear, Baer kit with 46 and 47.5mm shims, could have done it using ONLY Baer (bare loll) parts and NOT drilling spindles
- No rack spacers, no rod shortener or extender
- No other mods up front
- Rear red single adjustable R Koni shocks at softest setting
- Rear 500 R Koni springs

Let's forget camber, caster and toe as this is easy to change, I'm just talking about parts here, not settings (although I did mention softest shocks settings).


Also in the rear you have -0.075 camber or -0.75?

[Hindsight]

Hey Frank, good catch on the camber. It is -0.75 in the rear, yes.

I believe the only things I did that affected how the car is driving in non-race conditions are:
- Set caster to ~5.8 degrees which gives more steering feedback, helps the car track straight, and makes the wheel want to return to center
- Add the Baer Bump Steer Kit, and use it to space the rod-ends ~46mm from the spindles. This makes it so that on road irregularities, ruts, and bumps, it continues tracking straight and doesn't jerk to one side or the other. Same thing for when you are under heavy braking.

That's really it. The other stuff I did will only be noticeable when driving fast around corners. Those mods were (in addition to the above):
- Red 818R konis all the way around, softest setting (for now)
- Stock 818S springs up front (350#)
- 818R springs in the back (500#)
- Put the front sway bar on (per 818S manual)

[Lumpyguy]

Hindsight you are the man, thanks

[Hindsight]

NP - Once I get the steering rack extenders made and added, I will report back again. I still need to check and adjust the bump steer in the rear, but not because I have any issues anymore with how the car behaves on the street (now).

[Frank818]

I figured at .075 you had a damn great way to measure it. :)

So none of the WOW effect is due to the spring and shock changes?

[Hindsight]

No, I can feel the springs and shocks and they do feel pleasantly firm, but just driving it on the street you won't get any kind of "wow" factor from it. When I hit the track again, that is when I will know. I'm hoping the stiffer rear springs will allow me to get on the gas earlier in the corners. Previously I could only get on the gas very late because the car would squat really hard under full throttle acceleration which is good for rear traction but takes all the weight off the front and causes the car to push. A certain amount of that is always going to happen when accelerating out of a corner but I felt it was very bad.

[Frank818]

Would you say for street it's better to have a squatting rear (nothing funny here. But now yes lol) so it'd spin less on straight accelrations? Unless it would be important on street to get out of corners faster, which I don't think so, if you drive at the limit on the streets that's something else but it's a lot more dangerous. Spirited driving doesn't mean driving like on a race track.

I'm then a lot more surprised and amazed how huge a diff the baer kit made!! Do you pronounce baer like "bear" or "beer"?

[UnhipPopano]

You also may try raising the back of the car in relation to the front and playing with the settings on the shocks. If correct, the weight is transferring back when you accelerate and lifting the front causing under-steer. This is not a bad explanation "http://driver61.com/uni/understeer/".

[Hindsight]

Frank, if you aren't going to track it, the 818S rear springs are ideal because they allow for more rear tire traction under heavy acceleration. That's what you want for the street. I think the company pronounces it like "BARE".

Thanks UnhipPopano, I really need to get it to a large parking lot so I can experiment and see how it handles with the new setup so I know which direction to start going.

[UnhipPopano]

If you are interested in suspension tuning, get the Forza game. It is not perfect as different suspension setups are running the same model, but you can get a relatively good feel for how suspension changes impact the handling of the cars. Warning though, what is basically free in the game, like traction and stability control, is expensive to do in real life. On the other hand, if you utilize what you learn in the game to your car, it may save you a lot of money and time.

[Frank818]

Tnx Jeff!

[Scargo]

I have found Vsusp (http://vsusp.com/) to be very helpful in the design of my front suspension. Granted you have to have some numbers in order to have a place to start. Some of those suspension component position numbers have been discussed in the forum. I have these notes from 3/25/14.

This from Jim Schenck:
Here are the numbers I get for a 4.5 inch ride height (in inches):
Lower arm pivot, to ground: 9.25
Upper shock mount, from ground: 21.19
Lower shock mount, from ground: 9.375

Lower arm pivot, from centerline: 14.0625
Wheel center, from centerline: 30.125
Upper shock mount, from centerline: 18.23
Lower shock mount, from centerline: 24.9375

Shock compressed length: 11.10
Shock extended length: 15.15

[Hindsight]

Thanks for sharing the numbers Glyn.

Craig is going to machine the rack extender prototypes for me, and I found a place in the UK that sells a universal cut to fit extra-long rack boot that will work, so while I wait fir all that stuff to arrive, I am moving on to two other things....

First is exhaust. Sick of headaches after driving. I am going to keep the setup I have, but cut the pioe off just behind the muffler, then weld on a 90 degree bend, and have it exit out the bottom right side of the bumper, just behind the tire. I will have the pipe exit the bumper at an angke and will cut the pipe tip at an angle so it follows the bumper contour. Should look pretty slick. I am really hoping this will allow the exhaust to not get sucked into the low pressure vortex that the rear spoiler and the windshield produce.

Second, I am going to fix the fuel starvation issue. I bought hydramat and was going to use it but decided on going with a surge tank instead, so I have a nice Radium Engineering surge tank on the way. I got the one with the built in adjustable regulator and will be running a Walbro 274 pump which supports 500whp on E85 for future upgrades. Both pumps will be hard wired to a 50 amp relay triggered by a dash switch. I will keep my dead-end fuel rail setup.

Lots to do this winter!

[Wayne Presley]

I am a radium dealer ya know...

BTW the Radium stuff is very nice,. I have a customer with the Radium surge tank in his 818R and he reports that it works awesome.
Jeff, why not use the ECU to control the fuel pump relay?

[Hindsight]

Oh shoot Wayne, I did not know you were a dealer! I should just get in the habit of asking you first before ordering. And the Radium unit better be nice for what they charge... sheesh! I almost just fabricated my own since it is such a simple thing but was worried about my ability to get a fool-proof seal on the top.

As for the ECU, I dont want the variable voltage setup because I worry about its ability to properly control a pump with a much higher flow rate and amperage draw, and I want to be able to run the pump manually to do things like check and adjust static fuel pressure. The plan is to have the relay energize on a dash switch that I will normally leave switched to on, and the other side of the switch will connect to the ignition circuit so it comes on with key-on.

[Wayne Presley]

Get an inertial switch then for big OOPS pump shut off...

[Hindsight]

Thanks Wayne!
What do you think of in-tank (bulkhead style fitting) discriminator valves? I have been having issues with my fuel vent line puking some fuel while on the track. I jave the vent routed as high as possible to try to prevent this but it still happens. I thought maybe a discriminator valve might nicely solve this issue. I do also already have a rollover valve.

[Frank818]

Craig is going to machine the rack extender prototypes for me

I knew it. :D

[Hindsight]

I have decided to spend some of this weekend making yet another exhaust system. I've complained before about the exhaust being pulled up into the cabin from the low pressure vortex the windshield and the spoiler create. I thought my most recent exhaust was an improvement but it isn't really. So I'm going to try a rear/side exit, just behind the tire, and pointing toward the side. I will cut the exhaust pipe end at an angle to match the bumper contour, which means it won't be round but I kinda like that look. Hoping to get it done inside of a single day and have a successful test drive with NO fumes at any speed.

http://i.imgur.com/s1tOak8h.jpg

[Mitch Wright]

61102 I wanted to end up where you are looking to go but ended up a littler higher.

[Frank818]

1 day to redo the exhaust? Man you are so quick. No way you spent 1500h then. :)

But why aren't you trying a diffuser before testing 50 different exhaust exits? Cost?

[Hindsight]

Mitch, yours is pretty close... about as high but yours is further back. Do you get any exhaust smell in the cabin?

Frank, yes cost is the reason. I don't want to shell out over $500 for the splitter + shipping on the chance that it might work. It should only take me 4 hours to re-do the exhaust, at most, possibly only 2. Really I'm leaving the forward section that bolts to the turbo and includes the muffler, but I will cut off everything past the muffler and instead weld on a new pipe that bends 90 degrees to the side so it routes it over near the tire. I will need to add on a couple very small bends toward the end of that pipe where it exits the bumper to get the alignment right, and I will also need to add a new support bracket (attaching it to the transmission), but that's really all that needs to be done.

[Mitch Wright]

No but I have a R windscreen and only track drive the car, so not apples to apples

[Hindsight]

Ahh right, yeah that would make a huge difference. Thanks!

[RM1SepEx]

That's where mine is, no smell but the entire rear of the car does get dirty

[Hindsight]

Ok, I'm going to declare victory on the exhaust now I think. Took it for a nice long hour and a half drive this evening. Mix of slow and highway speeds. I didn't smell exhaust at any time though I notice my clothes do smell a bit of exhaust but I think some of that is just due to walking around the car while it's running. It is definitely 1000x better than it was before. Only took me three exhausts to get it right :rolleyes: I do still need to make a trim bezel out of sheet aluminum that rivets to the bumper around the cutout to clean the cutout up and protect the fiberglass from the heat.

http://i.imgur.com/NDgUPB0h.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/b5Xp6TUh.jpg

[Rob T]

Great news. The install looks nice.

[svanlare]

Congrats on solving the issue.

[Frank818]

So that's the 1st proof of the existence of exhaust smell related to exhaust placement! Awesome you made it!

Still, we must remember you have no diffuser. I wonder how does apply with a diffuser... I'll know for sure next spring.

You're opening between the door and front fender is small! Mine is a lot bigger and... oh, if I had done it that way I would have cleared out the front edge of the doors, which I had to trim A LOT cuz they were hitting on the frame. Oh well, it's trimmed, it's done. Tnx for the pic!

[Tamra]

Nice job. We will probably do the same but exiting on the driver side so we can keep the extra muffler.

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the kind words all, and Tamra, good to see you back here! You got the fenders on just in time for a long winter storage :( Will you and Andrew be driving the 818 much next season?

Today I checked off another item on my to-do list. Ever since I had to cut the engine cover into three pieces to fit around the roll bar, I had been securing a part of the sides of the cover with clear packing tape. The cover has a quik-latch in the center which keeps it down but the sides would flutter in the wind without packing tape. Unfortunately, it was a real pain to fix because there isn't anything convenient to use as an attachment point for the quik-latches in that area. I had to weld on a 6x6" steel plate to the frame to mount the lower half of the quik-latches. I just used a 1/4" screw for the small front portions that will basically stay put 99% of the time. I can open the engine cover on it's hinge easily now, and no more tape!!!

http://i.imgur.com/mNGTpNHh.jpg

[Frank818]

Really nice to see progress!

Now that bumpsteer, engine covers and fumes are fixed, what's your next step?

[Hindsight]

Hey Frank. This winter I'm hoping to swap out my master cylinder for a smaller one (I have it, just need to install it), make and install a front splitter with radiator ducting, and the Radium Surge Tank. I have a lot of small things I'd like to get done as well but those are the big ones.

[Frank818]

Oh yeah your brake issues! I remember. P1 on the list.
I'm interested in the rad ducting, as I will have to make one too but probably not before 1year.

Re to bumpsteer again, what donor rack you got again? I wonder if the 46mm and 47.5mm might differ depending on the rack.

[Hindsight]

Donor rack is 2007 WRX. The bump-steer shim differences from one side to the next are small enough that it could be attributed to heat distortion in the FFR frame. I wouldn't read anything into that.

[Frank818]

I wonder if a 2002-2004 rack would use different amount of shims... Not sure the rods are the same length neither if the rack is at the same height after using the different brackets on the frame.

[Hindsight]

My fuel surge tank showed up today. I am running out of places to mount things in the car! I'm thinking about mounting it on the firewall, in the cockpit, just behind the passenger seat back. I will probably built a cover of some sort out of 1/8" aluminum to try to prevent fuel leaking/spraying issues in the event of a crash, but there really just aren't many options as to where I could mount it. I can find a spot or two in the engine compartment but I don't think I want it regularly exposed to that much heat.

Installing this is going to take a long time. I have to remove the floor pan, seats, and firewalls. Make all new AN hoses, etc. Probably looking at a solid four days. But the good thing is that while the seats and firewall are out, I can finish looming the wiring harness and add carpet to the firewall.... some more punch-list items.

http://i.imgur.com/OFmvgiph.jpg

[RM1SepEx]

Don't worry about heat issues with your exhaust exit... same location 2500+ miles, no issues

61207

[tmoretta]

Mine in that location with a Supertrap (spreads out the exhaust flow) burned the paint on the bumper.

[Hindsight]

Thanks guys. Part of why I want to put a trim ring there is to cover up the less than perfect cutout in the bumper. It was a real challenge to get the cutout perfect, since the pipe comes out at an angle and not a round circle. I got it pretty good but I am perfectionist when it comes to these things so I will probably cut a trim ring of aluminum then have it cerakoted in white and rivet it in place. It will allow me to have a cutout with a perfectly consistent gap all the way around the exhaust tip.

[tmoretta]

Thanks guys. Part of why I want to put a trim ring there is to cover up the less than perfect cutout in the bumper. It was a real challenge to get the cutout perfect, since the pipe comes out at an angle and not a round circle. I got it pretty good but I am perfectionist when it comes to these things so I will probably cut a trim ring of aluminum then have it cerakoted in white and rivet it in place. It will allow me to have a cutout with a perfectly consistent gap all the way around the exhaust tip.

I also added a trim ring of alum. to protect the paint/hide the damaged paint.

[Scargo]

6123061234
Saw these on Amazon. The standard kitchen sink drain (https://smile.amazon.com/KOHLER-K-1036932-SN-Vibrant-Polished-Nickel/dp/B00BL5ZD2I/ref=pd_rhf_dp_p_img_4?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=5PRJD9QATBQPEPYM86BH) is 3-1/2" ID. The second item is OXO (https://smile.amazon.com/OXO-Good-Grips-Silicone-Strainer/dp/B000U0K5PU/ref=sr_1_5?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1479842778&sr=1-5&keywords=Kitchen+Sink+Strainer#Ask) and the middle is silicone so it could flex and take the heat! These might give you some ideas. Look at escutcheons, trim rings and so-forth.
Also, once cut or trimmed they might have some malleability.

[RM1SepEx]

U used a 4 inch hole saw and it is centered pretty well even though it doesn't go thru a flat section

[Hindsight]

Glyn, thanks for the input.

Dan, I was going to use a hole saw but the issue is that I would have had to drill it through the bumper at an angle. It's hard to see in the pic but the pipe doesn't come straight out, it comes out to the side and down so the hole in the bumper has to be oblong/oval. I'll most likely trace the exhaust tip opening onto paper, add a half inch margin around it, then add another 3/4" around that and cut that out into a ring.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

My exhaust seems to end up in a different place every time it is reassembled. at one time it was in the middle.
61254

[Aero STI]

Great news on the exhaust smell front. I'm going to have to consider doing the same.

[Frank818]

Hey Jeff, on your bumpsteer you said you had 46-47mm shims. Is that the length between the spindle and the rod end's ball joint?
I'm looking at that length. I am building my own like Tony, Mitch, FrankR...

[Hindsight]

Frank, yes that is correct. Let me know if you need shims... I found some for cheap online that are the right ID and OD for 5/8" bolt.

[Frank818]

Tnx a lot Jeff! Yeah I'd like to know, I found a few but they don't seem to be a perfect fit. Especially for those under 1/4 which I'd like to have a bunch of so I can be more precise on the adjustment.

With these shims I think my DYI kit would be complete and I'd shoot out the orders.

[Hindsight]

http://pitstopusa.com/c-132400-chassis-suspension-steering-components-tie-rods-bump-steer-bushings-studs.html

[Frank818]

Wow there's a lot of good stuff here! Too bad they don't sell the sleeves outside a kit but for spacers it's awesome. Now I see where Mitch got his 50mm wide conical spacer.

For people outside US, that place does not ship to you. Would need a friend from the States to take delivery and ship outside US, that's not a problem for me.

As soon as I get one of the 2 shipping quotes I asked on the sleeves yesterday I'll start ordering, with spacers from Pit-Stop. Tnx a lot!

[Frank818]

Jeff, do you think hardened aluminum rod ends are suitable for this application? They say it's has as much strenght as steel but at half the weight and it's not that expensive.

[Frank818]

Jeff it's me again. lolll When you added shims and tested your bump steer, what happened when you added more than 47mm? Was it bad?
I could cut costs a lot by having 48mm on both sides.

[nkw8181]

I have seen that as well. if you take the turbo off or change it then the position can really change. I have to adjust my opening




My exhaust seems to end up in a different place every time it is reassembled. at one time it was in the middle.
61254