Hindsight's build thread

[Hindsight]

Frank, sorry for delay. I would not use aluminum rod ends! Definitely use steel. Aluminum threaded tubes are ok for the tie rod couplers though... that is what Baer provides with their kit. I would be extremely nervous about aluminum rod-ends failing under load and if that happened, you would very likely have a nasty crash, and it would most likely happen at the worst possible time. Just think of years of work down the drain!

I answered your PM about the spacers. Get a bunch and do it right. Otherwise you won't see much benefit.

[Hindsight]

Year end reflections on the car...... Not many updates lately. Haven't had time to work on it at all. I did finally add some quick latches to the front-sides of my engine cover since I modified it to fit my custom roll bar.

http://i.imgur.com/mNGTpNHh.jpg


The exhaust is still great. I've been driving it less due to the extreme cold weather here. I did some 1/4 mile testing using my Cobb Accessport and the numbers had to be off since the best 1/4 mile I could get was like 13.0 or something like that. I need to get to a drag strip.

Looking forward to seeing how the suspension changes I made work on the track and affect corner balance and corner exit power.

Looking at the car, the lack of a front splitter really bugs me. Makes the front look very kit-car when you can look through the radiator opening and see the ground and especially the tires. Hoping to get the splitter on this winter. Still need to get the surge tank in before the next track section too but that's going to take a long time to do properly. Also need to box in my air filter to the side scoop like Tamra & Andrew did. And need to get front splash guards in so I stop wrecking my racing seats with all the crap that gets thrown up into the car.

Also, my engine is using a ton of oil so I think a new engine will be in my future. I don't see any smoke but it sure consumes a lot.

Looking forward to 2017 and hopefully finding some more time to complete some more mods.

[Hindsight]

Got the front splitter on today. Went with an FFR one for now. I just don't have time to make my own but I will probably do one down the road. I ordered some adjustable supports for it and they should show up by next weekend. Also need to fab up a support for the rear of the splitter, to tie it into the radiator frame. Lots more to get done this winter.....


http://i.imgur.com/AuPzpsXh.jpg

[Frank818]

Hey you pulled one here! We weren't expecting you to get this expensive but AWESOME new gen splitter (or maybe I missed a post). It looks amazing!

And I believe you fitted it about 3" out?


Happy New Y, man!

[Aero STI]

To support the rear of the splitter I got two long grade 8 bolts, 5-7 inches. Then I cut some aluminum tube to length for a spacer between the splitter and the square tubing above. It was a piece of cake and stiffened the whole thing up nicely.

[Wayne Presley]

Nice looking splitter, if you stick it out a bunch you'll need the supports.

[frankc5r]

With it stuck out that far, you may need more rear downforce from rear spoiler or diffuser to balance car. See if it feels loose. Looks great!!

[Hindsight]

Thanks guys. Frank, I believe I have the older gen splitter. For my purposes, I didn't need the newer one that looks nicer because it's just going to get banged up on the track. I've already dinged it once (a tiny bit) pulling my ultra-low profile jack out from under it. And yeah, it is sitting at about 3" stick-out right now. I will see how it works/feels. I do have the rear spoiler ("S" version) installed. I won't be able to test the aero affects until the next track day which I believe is in March.

Andrew, thanks for the input on the bracing. I was going to do something kind of similar... running an aluminum L bar across the two radiator support bars, horizontally, then bolting the splitter into that in several places. Your way would be more simple though.

Wayne, thanks for the deal on the splitter!

I bought some side skirts quite a while ago and finally got around to polishing them today with a buffer and some rubbing compound. I will see if I can't get them installed tomorrow. More of an appearance mod than a functional one, I think, though they may help a little. Going to be a bit of a pain installing them now that the side sails are in, since I will need to try to pull the side sails far enough out to press in some new rivnuts into the frame. Not sure that is going to be doable with the door latches in but I will give it a shot.

On a slightly 818-related note, I finally have an appointment with VW to complete the buy-back of my daily driver (2013 Passat TDI) which is affected by the emissions scandal. My plan is to replace it either with an F-150 (so I can get a trailer and tow the 818 to the track), or a Honda Accord Hybrid (cheaper and more responsible lol). Leaning toward the F-150. I don't have a good place to store a car trailer though and don't want to blow $100 a month on trailer storage either.... so that's something I have to consider.

http://i.imgur.com/7Mau0oIh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/QjPvG3Th.jpg

[Scargo]

It does look good but if it were me I would put it out at six inches and really let it do some good! Seems like the car should understeer quite a bit at lower speeds as they are normally weighted. Then you will have to get a wing...but, what do I know?
I know the trailer/truck dilemma. I have room for my 13' Featherlite though. I have a Dodge Dakota 6 which barely gets the job done on some of the hills around here with my 3000 lb. STi. For a while I rented Uhaul trailers but they are overkill, heavy and only have the self-contained braking. I also worried about the condition of some of the trailers for some of my 600 mile jaunts.
Is this really going to see some street use? Good work. Carry on.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Glyn. I would stick it out further but even at 3", I am pretty nervous about not being able to make it over speed bumps and into and out of driveways etc. The car does get a lot of street use. I like to take it on ~1 hour drives in the evenings and I take it to car shows and meetups. I would totally skip a trailer and just drive it to the track but I cant take tools, fluids, tents, chairs, and other things that way, and of course if it breaks on the track then I have to pay for an expensive tow home.

My dream is to get the truck and trailer. Then add some additional roll cage (door bars, and a front roll-bar like the "R" model has), and then make it so I can easily remove the windshield and replace it with the "R" windscreen so a rear wing could be effective. This way I can convert between street and track. At that point though, I'd be getting really serious about tracking it which would also mean getting slicks, which would mean getting a dry dump. Stuff is starting to add up quick. I've also been considering just keeping this as a street car and either building, or joining an existing Chumpcar team to get my road racing fix. Decisions, decisions.

[Scargo]

Oh, I hear that! I have my STi ready to go back on the track in the spring and I intend to be back working on the 818 if my doc gives me the all-clear tomorrow.
My goal is to sell the STi track car/ST2 race car and drive the 818R for track days. My DD is a Prius, of all things. I am trying to remedy that by buying a 2007 STi that would be my street toy and all-weather car but could be a backup track day car. It's not fun when the car is broke and you're not getting your fix.
The person with the most toys when they die wins!

[tmoretta]

Does anyone else, besides me, worry about the 818 as a track car in possible inclement weather? If I need to drive home in the rain after a track day will my gauges/ecu/other connections etc. become inoperative? And, using an open trailer for transport is no better with the 818. I don't like the option of the convertible top or coupe roof because of the lack of engine compartment access inherent in the design of both.

[Hindsight]

Bob fully waterproofed his... in the sense that it's able to be drive in the rain and get completely wet. That's really the only way to do it if you don't have an enclosed trailer. Personally, I will go the enclosed trailer route if I decide to race it often. I will never drive it in the rain.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob fully waterproofed his... in the sense that it's able to be drive in the rain and get completely wet. That's really the only way to do it if you don't have an enclosed trailer. Personally, I will go the enclosed trailer route if I decide to race it often. I will never drive it in the rain.

One time towing our 818 home from NCM on an open trailer. It was raining so hard, We could not see, so we stopped for dinner while the 818 sat out in pouring rain for an hour. No issue.
Bob

[Scargo]

You can buy, or get made, a "get you home" cover. I saw one mentioned recently for a British car, not unlike ours. The feature was that it took up very little space.
Perhaps you have to have some clips, snaps or Velcro placed around in strategic spots.

[Hindsight]

That's a good option Glyn..... the only issue with towing with a car cover on is that it will scratch the body up pretty bad (all that rubbing of the cover against dirt on the body). If it's a true race-car, then it doesn't really matter. But I like to be able to show my 818 off a bit at the car shows so that prevents me from going the car-cover or the water-proofing route. You have the right idea with the multiple vehicles hah, one for each specific purpose.

[RM1SepEx]

Just find a used 8.5 wide 16 ft long enclosed trailer. I spent $3000 for mine, added 200w of solar panels etc and I have both a trailer to transport, a camper using air mattress, led lighting and 12v for cooler etc. Doubles as a single car garage and tows easy with my 6 cyl ext cab silverado

[Hindsight]

You have any issues tying your 818 down in such a short trailer? I think the enclosed trailer I borrowed from a friend for one race last year was 19' and it was pretty tight in there, to tie the car down. Not much room for tools and other equipment besides the car. No cabinets, etc.

[Wayne Presley]

I use a 20 foot enclosed to haul cars and a 32 foot gooseneck for the track. I just sold my 16 Vnose trailer and I used it for years cor the cobra and 818. Put E track down to tie down the 818, use the over the tire straps.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Wayne. I was looking at 24' trailers which would be a real pain to find a place to store at my house.... so knowing I could get away with a 16 or 20 is good insight.

[Wayne Presley]

I have a 2011 20' Wells Cargo for sale with 2000 miles on it max. Recessed Etrack, ramps diamond plate, work bench, lighting, back up camera, electric tongue jack and drivers side escape door. $7000

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/818-build%201/20170104_103645_zps9i7xmol6.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/818-build%201/20170104_103645_zps9i7xmol6.jpg.html)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/818-build%201/20170104_103528_zpsojyerwsa.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/818-build%201/20170104_103528_zpsojyerwsa.jpg.html)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/818-build%201/20170104_103629_zpsxvvu5mty.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/818-build%201/20170104_103629_zpsxvvu5mty.jpg.html)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/818-build%201/20170104_103618_zpsicguyfoy.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/818-build%201/20170104_103618_zpsicguyfoy.jpg.html)

[RM1SepEx]

My 16 foot V nose still has room in front of the nose. Like Wayne I have E tracks on the floor but for the 818 I use the large bolt through the frame D rings. I'm using those straps that go through the rims and crisscross the straps. I use wheel chocks as well and it doesn't move. 16 foot with a V nose is the minimum size, we attempted an old E30 with a 14 foot trailer and it was too short. My Silverado is a base truck with only a 6000 lb towing capacity so the all aluminum 16 foot is perfectly sized. I have room to stand up a shifter kart in the trailer at the same time. I also have a cabinet in the V that is permanently stocked for racing with tools, jacks, my Quickjack, camping with a stereo, DVD player, two 185 AH storage batteries, charging stations for the shifters, my 24 volt scooters etc... I have a portable shower, a portable hammock, two 10 foot easy ups and those folding camping chairs too. Longer is nice but towing and parking space makes the 16 foot trailer perfect for me. I can use the solar panels to trickle charge my Miata stored in it for the winter. It's coming out soon to tow my neighbors MG TD to the shop in a week or two.

BTW Wayne, that's a nice trailer!

[Wayne Presley]

BTW Wayne, that's a nice trailer!

The 818 with race splitter just drives in...

[RM1SepEx]

Mine just drives in too with the same splitter though my ramps are not as nice. I need to position my ramps for kart loading too. Is that trailer all aluminum or steel framed?

[Wayne Presley]

Steel frame

[Hindsight]

Got the splitter supports in place today. I still need some black sleeves for the inner two supports but will need to cut those to custom length since the ones that came with it were too short.

I also made a support bracket for the back of the splitter out of some angle aluminum with an extension piece welded to it. Makes the splitter rock solid.

Looking in the radiator area, it is going to be a real challenge to add ducting to seal it off. There are a lot of obstructions around the headlight area that will make it difficult to seal against. I am also tempted, to make things easier on myself (from a ducting standpoint), to just run the duct plates to the AWIC heat exchanger only. It will mean there is about 2.5" of engine radiator that doesn't get airflow but otherwise it's going to be a real pain in the rear.

Has anyone installed the carbon fiber rocker panel extensions and if so, how did you attach? I figured I would just drill through them into the side sails and then into the frame but now I am realizing that they aren't wide enough to even reach the frame. The only thing I can come up with that doesn't involve complete removal of the side sail is to use some sort of hex-head wood screws to screw it into the fiberglass side sail and hope I don't hit a coolant pipe in the process.

http://i.imgur.com/CxcpQOAh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PKY4PSGh.jpg

[FFRSpec72]

Looks great, I have not added any supports yet, not sure I will need them, what supports did you use just in case I need to add this ?

[Hindsight]

Thanks. It was a real challenge to find supports that were short enough for the middle. Most supports are a lot longer, even adjustable.

I found these non-adjustable ones on eBay. They ended up being a hair to short, but also ended up being adjustable if you take them apart and remove the outer tube sleeve. http://www.ebay.com/itm/262249897354. My idea is to cut my own tube sleeve to the exact length I now know I need. The OD of the tube needs to be 7/16" and the inside needs to be 3/8". I couldn't find any aluminum tubing of that spec on McMaster.com but I did find some brass so I ordered it. After cutting to length, I will have it powder coated black. A lot of work and $ to make it right :-\ Oh one last thing about these eBay supports: They have the mounting stud built into the flange. That makes them very difficult to install. They are sold in pairs and are cheap so I bought two pairs. On one of them, I cut the studs off each mounting flange so the flanges were flat so I could use them as a mounting template, then I set them on the car where I wanted them and traced around them, then drilled the mounting hole in the center. Then I installed the non-cut version. You have to be careful about mounting them to the middle of the bumper because it can be difficult to get behind there to put a nut on it.

The outer ones are from Joes racing. Very happy with the quality. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009PKANBC These use screws to mount which made them much easier to install.

Be careful when ordering the supports. The length published is not the total length. Its often the length between the pivot points of the mounting flanges. Makes it even harder to order the right size.

[Hindsight]

Well I picked up my truck this week. Decided on the F150 with the 2.7 ecoboost. I got it with the 3.73 gears and the tow package so I can haul around a 20-24 enclosed trailer for the 818. It is going to take some getting used to having a truck as my daily driver! One thing I really do appreciate though is how quiet it is. It is actually more quiet than my Passat was, by a LOT too. On the highway it's just dead silent. Looking forward to getting a trailer and being able to go to more track days, around the country.

[bompus]

One thing I really do appreciate though is how quiet it is. It is actually more quiet than my Passat was, by a LOT too.

I have a 2016 Jetta 1.4T and was very surprised at how loud it is at idle. Sounds like a diesel idling, but nope.. They must just not care. I'll have to check out the F150 2.7 now :)

[Hindsight]

Yeah I have noticed that VWs in general are loud at idle and even the gas engines sound like diesels! This F150 is like a town car. Can't wait to tow with it.

[RM1SepEx]

Note, my 16 foot x 8.5 trailer with a V nose would have the same space as an 18 ft like Wayne's, it's 20 feet log to the tip of the nose... A flat nose has more towing drag unless you have a tall cap on your truck.

Congrats on the new truck, I tried a Ford van with that engine and it had great power

[Hindsight]

Thanks Dan. I am pretty sold on a V-nose for the better aerodynamics, but it all comes down to what kind of deal/opportunity I can find. I don't have a big budget for a trailer.... probably looking at around $4k to $5k max when I am ready. Need to sell a few things I am no longer using anymore to fund it, since I am pivoting my interests a bit in order to focus more on racing.

[RM1SepEx]

I borrowed a friend's 14 ft, 7.5 w v nose for a 500+ mile trip. On the way home my wife made the comment on how handy the large, enclosed aluminum trailer was... I found this one on craigslist for $3000 within a week. It is a bit beat up and is about 10 yrs old but I've found it to be a great investment between being my camper and toy hauler during warm weather and a garage for her Miata in the winter

[Hindsight]

Got the side skirts installed and re-adjusted the passenger door hinges so the door doesn't drag on the side sail when closing. Need to send the inner splitter support struts off to the powder coater.

http://i.imgur.com/GoheTiBh.jpg

[Frank818]

Nicely done, man!

[Lumpyguy]

very nice my friend, Looks like it has come a long way since I was there. cheers

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the kind words guys.

Went to cars and coffee today. As I was driving there at like 5:30am (!!!) I saw what looked like a GTM on the highway so I pulled up to him and it ended up being an Ultima GTR. Followed him to the show and parked next to him. Turns out I used to work at the same company and in the same building as him for like 7 years. Such a small world. Anyway, the 818 looked HUGE next to the GTR! I kinda want a GTR/SLC/GTM already hahaha.

http://i.imgur.com/VlrGIc2h.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/CAzST1Ph.jpg

[aquillen]

"How It's Made - Dream Cars" TV show (on my Dish actually), ran a show on how the Ultima is built in house as a finished car. That show is fun and sometimes gives me ideas.

And by the way - your car is looking gooo----oood. Wife says mine has to be white too.

[Scargo]

Wow, they're so tiny! Those British!

[ben1272]

I would like to some time consider a re-body for the 818 that is more int he vein of a supercar, like the optima or any other for that matter. Given its low slung frame I think that many different body styles could be made to work on its chassis.

I like the optima but there is something about its proportions that throws me off....I think it is the height of the passenger bubble relative to the height of the rest of the car......though it now looks about the same as Porsche's 919 hybrid latest race car offerings. http://www.porsche.com/usa/eventsandracing/motorsport/worksracing/raceseries/fiawec/

Your 818 looks really great and continues to incent me to get my own on the road!!

-Ben

[Frank818]

That's a shiny white, Jeff! And no exhaust smell! lolll



"How It's Made - Dream Cars" TV show

Oh I LOVE that show!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aero STI]

Looking great! I just got back from Atlanta (stayed in Buckhead). Thursday to Sunday the weather was amazing for middle of January.

I've grown very fond of the the Superlite GT-R. They're made outside of Detroit. The level of completeness is incredible. Way less monkeying with stuff compared to the 818 or GTM. I think that's the next project car for me.

[Wayne Presley]

Looking great! I just got back from Atlanta (stayed in Buckhead). Thursday to Sunday the weather was amazing for middle of January.

I've grown very fond of the the Superlite GT-R. They're made outside of Detroit. The level of completeness is incredible. Way less monkeying with stuff compared to the 818 or GTM. I think that's the next project car for me.

Then you should look at this one 62776
SLC Aero

[Hindsight]

Looking great! I just got back from Atlanta (stayed in Buckhead). Thursday to Sunday the weather was amazing for middle of January.

I've grown very fond of the the Superlite GT-R. They're made outside of Detroit. The level of completeness is incredible. Way less monkeying with stuff compared to the 818 or GTM. I think that's the next project car for me.

Aww man! I wish I would have known you were in town; I would have offered to buy you a beer. Maybe next time!

[Mitch Wright]

I was blown away at the price of the SLC Aero, $65K complete with a LS engine if I remember correctly.

[Frank818]

Yeah, but the Aero is race only. I configured myself a "simple" SLC and without the trans (10k) and engine it came up at 63k. As lump sumps, a 50% deposit and the remaining later. Have no idea how the build experience compares to the 818.

[Hindsight]

I've been told and have read online that the SLC and Ultima kits are much nicer than FFR. But of course, they are like 4x the price or more. FFR has found their niche between quality/design/price and it is obviously working very well for them.

Not sure about the Aero, but the Superlite SL-C is $44k for the kit. You do get a lot more than in the 818 kit.... the completeness is more like what you get with the FFR GTM. All you need is the drivetrain, from what I understand. Figure $8-9k for a transmission (G50) and then however much else you want to spend on an engine (crate or used out of a modern camaro, trans am, GTO, corvette, or whatever). I think you could probably get one done nicely for around $65k if you didn't go nuts.

Seeing those GT-Rs in person and then watching a youtube video of an SL-C running Thunderhill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhHKQmHKzdA&t=2s) really made me think a lot about my goals. I'm not rich, and the idea of stuffing a car I've "invested" over $50k and 2+ years of my life into is not something that would be good for my mental health. At the speeds these cars are capable of, going off the track has a much, much higher chance of totaling the car completely and also injuring you. I'm starting to think having a nice street/track car that you drive at maybe 8 10ths on the track, and then having something cheaper like a chump car, spec miata, or spec e-30 that you track and drive at the absolute limit is the way to go.

Anyone on here race chump cars?

[Wayne Presley]

I was blown away at the price of the SLC Aero, $65K complete with a LS engine if I remember correctly. And that is fully built and ready to drive with a Katech dry sump LS


Yeah, but the Aero is race only. I configured myself a "simple" SLC and without the trans (10k) and engine it came up at 63k. As lump sumps, a 50% deposit and the remaining later. Have no idea how the build experience compares to the 818. And...


I'm starting to think having a nice street/track car that you drive at maybe 8 10ths on the track, and then having something cheaper like a chump car, spec miata, or spec e-30 that you track and drive at the absolute limit is the way to go.

Anyone on here race chump cars?

I do, they are fun and so far 2 miatas have been written off. :)

[Hindsight]

Written off as in tax, or as in crashed/blown up?

If you want to stay East of the Mississippi, are there many chumpcar events? Like, around how many a month would you say?

[Wayne Presley]

Written off as in tax, or as in crashed/blown up?

If you want to stay East of the Mississippi, are there many chumpcar events? Like, around how many a month would you say?
slight body work required and no I wasn't driving this one. I drove the start and first 2 hours.

Before

62810

After

6281162812

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/project-cars/1992-yellow-mazda-miata/our-miata-gets-smashed/

[Hindsight]

lol from the pictures I have seen online, your post-crash picture looks very similar to some cars running on the track!

[Wayne Presley]

62814628156281662817

Miata that I Tboned a VW bug with at Sebring

[Aero STI]

Aww man! I wish I would have known you were in town; I would have offered to buy you a beer. Maybe next time!

Jeff, I considered looking you up, but didn't want to impose. My wife is there every January and every July. I don't think I'll come this summer, but possibly next winter. I brought the kids down for a short retreat at the expense of my wife's business.

Since I ordered my Tillet seats through him, I've had a few brief conversations with Allan Uzwiak (https://www.youtube.com/user/zakari3030) about Superlite/RCR. $85K is the ballpark for a top notch turnkey SL-C or GT-R. It's not chump change but it's true super car territory for 1/4 the cost.

I did Lemons for 4 years. We started with a '92 Jetta GL, stock with a 1.8L and factory 5 speed. Worked out many bugs and ended with a Mk3 2 point slow and MK4 five speed. We won many trophies and class B. Then proceeded to ghetto charge the car to the tune of 250 WHP at 1800 lbs. Moved to Class A and moved far away from consistent finishes. The car was regularly turning fastest laps. The car ended up totaled because of a dumbass mustang driver spinning immediately in front. One of my best friends who was instrumental in the team passed away and things evaporated. That was some of the best smiles per dollar I've ever had. It the reason I have over 1000 laps at Gingerman. Lemons is not cutthroat like spec miata or chump, but it's absolutely amazing smiles per dollar. I recommend anyone interested give it a go by acquiring the proper safety gear and finding an established team on the forums that need an extra driver for a race.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8m-uPLZXdI

[Hindsight]

You would never be imposing! Would be really cool to meet in person.

Thanks for all the info on the Lemons! It sounds like a great time. Do you think there are more Lemons races, or chumpcar races? You mention miata and chump are more cutthroat.... can you elaborate on that? What is the cost like for lemons vs chump?

[Hindsight]

Also, a local photographer took this pic at the car show last weekend and sent it over to me.

http://i.imgur.com/DZx37YSh.jpg

[svanlare]

Been racing Lemons for many years now. While you used to be able to build a car and meet both Chump and Lemons rules, not sure that is still true. Our team has a good 30+ races under our belt now and it is definitely a good way to get track time and have a lot of fun. We had an '86 300Z and later added a miata. The Z got replaced by a 91 along the line but the miata is still soldiering on. The Z is usually a contender for fast lap, the Miata usually places higher at the end of the race (same drivers). Also the Z usually has a lot of repairs between races where the Miata usually gets an oil change and a quick once over.

The last time our team looked at the two, there were a lot more races for Lemons than Chump here on the west coast. Haven't looked in a while to see if that is still true, so you'll have to look at the schedules to see about Atlanta. Also when we last looked, Chump was highly biased to "it is all about racing and winning" where Lemons has a much stronger dose of "it is about track time and fun". Nobody on our team is going to wear a catheter and run a 4 hour shift so Lemons it is.

Probably more than you want here: http://zlime-racing.blogspot.com

I don't think I'll track my 818, not because I'm worried overly about the safety of the car, but I'm much more worried about the time I've put into it. So I think I'll autocross the 818 and do DE's, but keep focused on the other cars for tracks.

[Aero STI]

Piling on Steve's response, there were more lemons races than chump when I was involved. The requirements for safety were nearly identical and people regularly competed in both series with the same car. Lemons seemed to get the better tracks. We raced Road America, Gingerman, Autobahn, and Mid-America because they were all a reasonable drive. Gingerman was especially convenient since it's only 35 minutes from my house.

Steve also nailed what I meant by more cutthroat. I don't have firsthand experience with chump or spec miata, just numerous acquaintances who have done all three. The consensus seemed to be that lemons was what they did when they just felt like having a really fun time turning laps. All types were welcome. Chump was a place where overly competitive people congregated. Spec Miata was just the cheapest form of closely matched cars doing some legitimate racing.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Andrew and Steve! Very good info. I think I may end up doing some AutoX days with the 818 to sort out the balance of the car and tune me into driving it at the limit, then continue doing HPDE days at 8/10ths to keep the risk low, and then do a Lemons car for going all out on the track and having a low-stress time. With all the time and money I have in the 818, I'm starting to lose sleep at the thought of one snap-oversteer incident trashing the car beyond repair.

[Hindsight]

Working down the checklist toward the next track day in March. Going to put in a new radiator, add ducting for it, add the fuel surge tank which will require re-making the rear firewall, adding front splash guards, and wrap up some suspension stuff (replace one of the Baer tube nuts that I cut down in order to determine steering rack spacer size, re-align the car, and adjust rear bump-steer). Oh and I need to build an airbox that is sealed to the side scoop like Tamra and Andrew did.

Not sure about the rest of you but I get a lot of rattle and squeaking sounds from my engine cover and trunk cover where the fiberglass panels touch and rub on eachother. I found some white felt strip with adhesive backing from McMaster and plan on using it to quiet down the rattles. I'll report back with the results and some pics if it works as well as I hope it will.

http://i.imgur.com/FEnqjahh.jpg

[UnhipPopano]

From the builds using a rear trunk, they report that the fiberglass in the rear is way stiffer. Felt may quiet down the sounds of the fiberglass panels rubbing on each other, but you might think about ways to stiffen it up and reduce the racking. [http://www.marineengineering.org.uk/page82.html]

Racking
Uneven water pressure caused by wave action leads to distortion of the structure as shown and is resisted by the Shear Stresses in the structure including most significantly the Transverse bulkheads and framing. Racking stresses are highest at the corners of the box section and thus the corner brackets are specially inspected.

[Frank818]

I like the gas station pic. :)

[Hindsight]

Thanks Frank!

UnhipPopano, I stiffened up the engine cover a ton with some balsa and fiberglass. Need to do the same with the trunk lid at some point, though even when I do get it stiff, I know there will be a few points where it makes contact and rubs. Hoping the felt quiets it down.

Made a couple new friends at a car show last weekend; one has an LS swapped FD RX-7 and the other has an LS swapped gen 1 Miata (lol). I took them each for a ride in the 818 last night and they both commented on how solid and tight the car was. They weren't expecting that at all. I tend to agree.... if you build it right and take care of any rattles, the car is quite solid and tight and has a quality feel.

[svanlare]

I've been debating what to use as so the covers don't just sit fiberglass on fiberglass. I have no answers yet... Felt seems really easy, but not sure how it will hold up.

[Hindsight]

I just installed some today so I will report back in a while. I think there is a pretty good chance it will hold up but we shall see. Might also depend on how much rain the car sees - mine will never see any.

[Frank818]

Jeff, with all those discussions and improvements you're making on the car I kinda totally loss the big picture.
Your car is registered right?
When's the last time you drove it on the street?
When's the next time you plan on driving it on the street?
When are you planning to have everything ready for your track ride?

[Hindsight]

Hey Frank, car was registered last September. I drove it on the street two days ago, and typically drive it several times a week if the weather is good. When I drive it, it is either purely for fun, or to go to a car meetup or car show. Need to have everything ready for the next track day by mid-march. That's going to be cutting it close.

[Frank818]

Cool! Yeah I've seen those pix outside so I thought you were driving a little although not everything is fixed. Was wondering when the track would be next and it's not too far from today! :)

[Hindsight]

Lots of stuff done in the last week but not a lot of pics to show for it. I made a hood prop rod that hinges and attaches to the engine cover. Much more convenient to have that in place so I can use it at car shows. I replaced the rear mesh with a new piece of mesh that doesn't have a hole cutout for exhaust since I changed mine up. I fabricated front splash guards (both in front and behind the wheel) because the FFR-supplied once didn't fit well. They came out really nice and I sprayed them with 3M undercoating which looks very professional. No pics yet.

I've now turned my attention toward the fuel surge tank. Hoping to have it wrapped up by the end of next weekend. I decided on locating it behind the driver seat. I will need to build a new driver-side firewall. I'm going to install a combination rollover / fuel-discriminator valve in the top of the fuel tank and use that as my vent. This will keep fuel from coming out my breather on the track (and double as a rollover valve). Need to make all new fuel lines for the setup and am waiting for some new AN hose ends and olives to arrive. While I have everything torn apart, I'm going to finally loom the rear section of the wiring harness and also build a cover for the ECUs, and carpet the firewalls.

http://i.imgur.com/Y94QvZvh.jpg (http://imgur.com/Y94QvZv)

http://i.imgur.com/s4L2ZRHh.jpg

[Canadian818]

Is that a radium surge tank? They look nice, definitely on my list to buy. Fairly pricey IMO, but you get what you pay for. I'm curious how loud it will be behind the seat, I recall someone mentioned they're quite loud. Maybe consider using rubber to isolate it from the bracket?

[Frank818]

I love the bracket you made! Looks so professional!

I also wonder if that surge tank can fit the old '33 'Rod tank, there isn't a lot of space between the sides top of the tank and inside of the rear thick aluminum firewall plate.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Frank! A buddy of mine saw it and told me I need to pull it and ensure my welds continue all the way around or I could get stress cracks. It's only an issue on aluminum apparently. It's just very hard for me to weld aluminum close to the edges on my TIG setup without blowing through the aluminum. The aluminum I used is 3/16 which is at the very upper end of my TIG machine's capability, making it more challenging.


Is that a radium surge tank? They look nice, definitely on my list to buy. Fairly pricey IMO, but you get what you pay for. I'm curious how loud it will be behind the seat, I recall someone mentioned they're quite loud. Maybe consider using rubber to isolate it from the bracket?

Yes it is a Radium tank and yes, crazy expensive. I really see no reason it should cost as much as it does. I debated fabricating my own but didn't want to deal with figuring out how to perfectly seal the top of it. The Radium unit is VERY nice quality for sure though. I will let you know about volume. Being an open cockpit car with the engine right behind you, the car is really loud anyway. The surge tank will have a carpeted firewall over it so hopefully that will cut down on the sound some. I will let you know how loud it is. Some of it will be based on how loud the pump itself is since some of them are loud and some are quiet. This one is a Walbro 274 which will support my ultimate power goals of around 500WHP on E85, when the time comes.

[Zach34]

I don't think you'll get stress cracks in that. I would have done it the same way, and your welds look good. Trying to get enough heat into that corner would be a pain. Is it 6061? At 3/16 thick it seems to me it would take a lot more stress than just hanging that surge tank off of it to get a stress fracture to creep out of a weld.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Zach. The aluminum is 5052. I try to use 6061 for most things but had this on-hand. So considering that, you still think I'm good as is?

[FFRSpec72]

Thanks Zach. The aluminum is 5052. I try to use 6061 for most things but had this on-hand. So considering that, you still think I'm good as is?

I did not think that 5052 was really something that you could do dependable welding on, as that is why I use 6061.

[Hindsight]

Really? I read that 5052 has really good weldability. I'm a novice welder though so any feedback is appreciated.

Edit, I used 4043 filler. I just did a search and found this which says 4043 works well with 5052: http://www.thefabricator.com/article/aluminumwelding/aluminum-workshop-where-in-the-world-is-the-5052-filler-alloy-

Still open to input as always!

[Canadian818]

4043 is a good filler for anything that see cyclic loading. I've also considered making my own, but I think it'll be a headache. Another option is a cheap eBay tank and just mount the pump externally.

[ben1272]

Got the side skirts installed and re-adjusted the passenger door hinges so the door doesn't drag on the side sail when closing. Need to send the inner splitter support struts off to the powder coater.

http://i.imgur.com/GoheTiBh.jpg

You probably read this already, but on FFR's description of the front race splitter (at their online store) it says they recommend use of the race wing in order to maintain proper traction at higher speeds. If you use the street splitter they recommend the carbon wing like you have. I have no experience myself, but I think FFR tested in the wind tunnel to confirm this.

[Hindsight]

You probably read this already, but on FFR's description of the front race splitter (at their online store) it says they recommend use of the race wing in order to maintain proper traction at higher speeds. If you use the street splitter they recommend the carbon wing like you have. I have no experience myself, but I think FFR tested in the wind tunnel to confirm this.

Yeah I did read that but I'm going to see what happens on the track. Worst case, I can take it off, but I don't think it's going to make that big of a difference because it's angled in the wrong direction anyway. Mostly an appearance thing for me now.

[Frank818]

The splitter is angled in the wrong direction? It will lift the car up?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

The splitter is angled in the wrong direction? It will lift the car up?

No Frank,
FFR is recommending the race splitter and race wing together to keep balanced down force front and rear.
Bob


Yeah I did read that but I'm going to see what happens on the track. Worst case, I can take it off, but I don't think it's going to make that big of a difference because it's angled in the wrong direction anyway. Mostly an appearance thing for me now.

Hindsight,
The shape of the splitter is fine. The down force comes from the slow moving high pressure air on top the splitter and the low pressure fast moving air on the bottom of the splitter.
Bob

[Hindsight]

Well, the splitter has a ramp on it that will cause some lift to be generated. But the nature of a splitter, sticking out on front of the bumper, means that the air that hits the bumper cant be deflected downward beneath the car. That right there will fight lift but what I don't know is how much that will offset the ramp of the splitter. The only way for me to really know is going to be when I hit the track. If it pushes in the corners at speed, that means it's too much aero in the front. I don't really think that's going to be a problem though, but that is just a hunch I have.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Well, the splitter has a ramp on it that will cause some lift to be generated. But the nature of a splitter, sticking out on front of the bumper, means that the air that hits the bumper cant be deflected downward beneath the car. That right there will fight lift but what I don't know is how much that will offset the ramp of the splitter. The only way for me to really know is going to be when I hit the track. If it pushes in the corners at speed, that means it's too much aero in the front. I don't really think that's going to be a problem though, but that is just a hunch I have.

Maybe I'm think of this the wrong way. If pushing (front end sliding) you need more front down force.
Bob

[Hindsight]

Sorry Bob, you are right I had it backwards. It's been a long day.

[UnhipPopano]

I take it that the turn buckles supporting the splitter are also used to adjust the down-force. given how far it sticks out and that it does not pivot, how much can you adjust it?

[Hindsight]

You cant really adjust it at all. The splitter bolts to the bumper all the way around and the bumper is at a fixed angle. The back edge of the splitter ties into the frame and because the bumper sits higher than the frame, again, it means the splitter is not level, it is actually at an upward rake which is the wrong direction for ideal function (I believe). The support braces I installed are there to keep the splitter from deflecting at high speeds - nothing more.

[Zach34]

Really? I read that 5052 has really good weldability. I'm a novice welder though so any feedback is appreciated.

Edit, I used 4043 filler. I just did a search and found this which says 4043 works well with 5052: http://www.thefabricator.com/article/aluminumwelding/aluminum-workshop-where-in-the-world-is-the-5052-filler-alloy-

Still open to input as always!

Unless you're mounting something like a vibratory tumbler on it, I can't see it stress cracking anytime soon. If you made it out of .040 sheet, then yeah it might crack after a while.

5052 is better for bending, 6061 is better for machining. In my experience they weld about the same, but I'm not a pro. Same filler rod - 4043. Not sure about toughness specs, but I think 6061 is slightly harder/tougher. They might work harden at different rates, but that's only an issue if there's some flex in your bracket - doesn't look like there would be.

Got me googling. This says 5052 is superior to 6061 for welding: https://www.nemaenclosures.com/blog/5052-vs-6061-aluminum-property-strength-differences/

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Boyd 818 gas tanks are 5052 aluminum.
http://www.fueltankparts.com/factory-five-818-10-gallon-gas-tank-with-aeromotive-stealth-340-pump.html

[sgensh]

Kind of late to the game here, but I was considering an F150 daily driver for all the same reasons you bought one... what kind of gas mileage are you seeing with your normal commute?

[Hindsight]

I have less than 1,000 miles on it right now so the mileage will improve. Right now, not paying attention to driving it gently, I'm getting around 18 in the city and low 20's on the highway. I have the 2WD version. Hoping to get 20/26 after break-in with gentle driving.

[Mitch Wright]

Frank,

Our bodies/front body work must fit much differently. My front fascia/splitter is at the same plane as the bottom of the chassis. When mounting the body I did have the chassis set on block at ride height with 2x4s extending to the fascia to support it on the same plane as chassis.
Something to play with next time you have the front end off the car.

[Frank818]

Well, the splitter has a ramp on it that will cause some lift to be generated.

You have to do like me and block the lower front opening, blocking any air that would flow on top of those rear double ramps. At the same time it will increase the pressure difference between low pressure on top of splitter and high underneath.

[Hindsight]

Frank,

Our bodies/front body work must fit much differently. My front fascia/splitter is at the same plane as the bottom of the chassis. When mounting the body I did have the chassis set on block at ride height with 2x4s extending to the fascia to support it on the same plane as chassis.
Something to play with next time you have the front end off the car.

Mitch, I mounted the front bumper per the manual which says it's supposed to be about 1.5" higher than the plane of the bottom of the frame. The bumper height also impacts the fender height as well and since I already have tires rubbing on fiberglass of the fenders, I worry that having the bumper lower down even with the frame would make the clearance issues even worse.

[Frank818]

This thread is getting to many posts it's hard to keep up. lolll

Mitch, I think you meant "Jeff" and not "Frank", but that's ok. :)

Jeff, so far my front end is about the same height as the frame, around 4.5", give or take 0.5 for the front end. 1.5" diff would be way too much for me, won't fit at all on the side sails.

[Hindsight]

I had it wrong, the manual states the bumper should be 1/2" above the frame. That is what I set it to. So any splitter you install will have a slight upward ramp, unless you lower it down a half inch and make some sort of filler panel between the bumper and the splitter. Alternately, you could lower the nose a bit but I don't want to do that and lose wheel clearance, plus my whole front end is already setup and installed to that height so it would be a major pain.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I had it wrong, the manual states the bumper should be 1/2" above the frame. That is what I set it to. So any splitter you install will have a slight upward ramp, unless you lower it down a half inch and make some sort of filler panel between the bumper and the splitter. Alternately, you could lower the nose a bit but I don't want to do that and lose wheel clearance, plus my whole front end is already setup and installed to that height so it would be a major pain.

Hindsight
I don't have my splitter installed yet.
The lip on my splitter is about 1/2" . So it would be even with the bottom of the chassis. Not counting where the splitter is raised in the middle.

This is the best picture I have where the camera is the same height as the bottom of the car.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=63533&d=1485980940

[Scargo]

Lower the nose!
63534
Winning car at IMSA Daytona Rolex 24 hours. I took this!

[Wayne Presley]

Lower the nose!
63534
Winning car at IMSA Daytona Rolex 24 hours. I took this!

I was there Fri-Sunday! Great race!!!

[Frank818]

I had it wrong, the manual states the bumper should be 1/2" above the frame. That is what I set it to. So any splitter you install will have a slight upward ramp, unless you lower it down a half inch and make some sort of filler panel between the bumper and the splitter. Alternately, you could lower the nose a bit but I don't want to do that and lose wheel clearance, plus my whole front end is already setup and installed to that height so it would be a major pain.

Oh, 0.5", yeah I got that, or so. Can't remember the manual I lost a couple of sheets. 0.5 is easy to get. In my case pretty much how I was trying to get the panels on right it ended up about 0.5 over. Does the splitter need to be at the exact same level as the bottom of the frame?

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the pic Bob!

Frank, if you want ideal aero, the answer is yes, and the splitter should be flat too. Basically an extension of the frame. Ideally.

[Hindsight]

Is that a radium surge tank? They look nice, definitely on my list to buy. Fairly pricey IMO, but you get what you pay for. I'm curious how loud it will be behind the seat, I recall someone mentioned they're quite loud. Maybe consider using rubber to isolate it from the bracket?

I got the wiring and plumbing done and turned the pumps on. Wow, both pumps are crazy loud, running on the full 12 volts without a fuel pump controller. I'm going to use some expensive sound deadening stuff on the back of my firewall to help quiet them down a little. I also made and installed block-off panels that cover the seatbelt area and also the area near the side of the tank that is wide open with the new tank.

Not shown in the pics is a discriminator valve on the top of the tank. It goes in like a bulk head fitting. I drilled a hole for it right next to the fuel pump top (in the metal tank), installed it, and ran hose from it to my home made charcoal cannister. It bolts to the fuel tank like a bulk-head fitting and allows the tank to breathe, but won't allow fuel through it. Also doubles as a rollover valve. That is my one and only vent now for the tank. Hydramat is in place too.

I need to replace the bulk-head fitting that goes through the firewall. It sticks out too far and hits the front portion of the firewall. I already have a new bulk head fitting that is 90 degrees. Just need to install it. After that, the part I'm dreading: Fabricating a new firewall. I don't have tooling to bend .125 aluminum so I'm going to just cut and weld anywhere that needs a bend.... there should only be three bends the way I am planning it. I'm only dreading it because it will take a long time. Then I need to make a cover panel for the ECUs and relays. Then carpet the firewall. Lastly, I need to make a belt guard for the alternator belt. If it goes, it could whack the fuel fittings and fuel lines and possibly break them or knock them loose and spray fuel everywhere.

http://i.imgur.com/QyaEhcQh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/tungBKnh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xz8C2Bbh.jpg

[Zach34]

When I needed some some 8-foot long sheets of 16-gauge stainless bent for a workbench top I was making, I managed to find a local sheet metal fabricator who was able to do it for me rather easily.

If you don't already have the .125 sheet you intend to use, I would search for a sheet metal shop of some kind in your area. If you can find one that works with aluminum, they might be able to source the best alloy for bending for you. I don't know what alloy the kit-supplied firewall is, but I know it's tough to get thick 6061 sheets to bend to 90 degrees before breaking. 5052 might be better, I'm not sure. Judging by the marks on the kit-supplied firewall, it was done in a large press brake - like a 35-ton or more kind of thing. I can't think of a business off the top of my head that would have one of those, but that's the tool you need.

Cutting and welding would be a good exercise in drawing a nice long bead in aluminum, but if it's like the kit-supplied firewall and there's no boxing anywhere, I would worry about warping. Please share your experience if you weld it. I'm considering fabricating my own fuel cell (ATL will make a custom bladder to fit your enclosure), which would be a similar welding job.

[UnhipPopano]

Question about having the fuel and surge tank between two firewalls. If you get a small leak, how would you know?

[Hindsight]

Zach, there are some metal places locally and they would bend it for me but the cost would be high and I don't think I can get angle estimates accurate enough using cardboard mock-ups to make it fit 100% properly the first time. I have the aluminum already (I've been getting my metal from eBay because even with shipping, it's cheaper than local) so I just need to get started. Good point about warping but I haven't had a big problem with that when welding thick aluminum yet. Hopefully I don't on this firewall piece!

UnhipPopano: Really no different than on any car where you have a fuel pump top and hoses that are sandwiched in between the top of the tank and the floor of the trunk. I would probably smell the fuel since the firewall will probably have some small gaps here and there and it won't be sealed with weather stripping or anything that fancy. If it's bigger than that, then it would leak down onto the garage floor since the floor pan has drain holes in it. When I had a bit of fuel slosh into my charcoal can and slowly drop out under the side sail, the smell was quite strong, so I'm figuring I will be able to smell a leak here too.

[UnhipPopano]

I hope you are right, as the explosion / ignition point of fuel is a ratio of oxygen to fuel. Too much or too little and nothing will happen. With fuel vapers heavier than air, and a semi enclosed area like the hull of a boat, you may have an unsafe design. On boats, the areas that store fuel need to have ventilation that will remove any vapers that may escape from the tank or fittings. [http://www.boatingbasicsonline.com/content/general/4_2_d.htm]

[Hindsight]

As shown in the pic below, the floor pan comes from the factory with a lot of vents. It isn't like a boat that 100% has to be perfectly sealed or it will sink. You are limited with options on the 818 anyway, if you are paranoid about fuel vapors. You could choose to not install a secondary firewall, but then you have no heat shield between the engine and the fuel tank, and the exhaust manifold is less than a foot away from the fuel tank which I didn't like. Heck, you can see the exhaust manifold in the pic and it's more like 4" away from the tank, or less.

http://i.imgur.com/J3BRrW5h.jpg

[Hindsight]

Replaced the bulk-head fitting on the fuel system tonight so the firewall would clear the hoses.

Also fabricated a belt guard that protects the fuel lines and fittings right above the alternator pulley.

Pics below, including the discriminator valve on the fuel tank.

Started mocking up the new inner firewall with cardboard and will start building it out of aluminum Saturday.

http://i.imgur.com/aaJB1szh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/l9MqyExh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vBAvXeHh.jpg

[Hindsight]

Driver's side firewall is done. I need to carpet both firewalls, build a cover for the ECU panel and wiring, then put everything back together. This fuel surge tank project was quite an undertaking. A lot more hours than I thought it would require. I'd say I still have a good 8-10 hours to wrap up that stuff and get everything back together. Probably not going to happen this weekend though so maybe next.

http://i.imgur.com/7DW2kVzh.jpg

[Frank818]

That looks beautiful.

[turbomacncheese]

That looks beautiful.

+1.

[Canadian818]

Should help with the noise too! Any sound insulation on the inside?

[Hindsight]

Thanks guys. Yes, I put some Luxury Liner Pro on the inside of it. Added some weight to my already somehow overweight 818 though.

I got them mostly carpeted today. Just a few things to add before finishing up. Pics when it's back together.

[Frank818]

How heavy are you, actually? I mean the car.

[Hindsight]

Frank the car weighed like 2085 when I put it on corner scaled at a local speed shop. That's without me in it, and with a full tank of gas. I'm guessing that's 90lbs of fuel, so right at 2,000lbs dry. I have kept things simple and light and pretty straight forward. I haven't added sound deadening anywhere (except on the firewall), no stereo, etc. My wheels (RPF1) are light, and my racing seats are very light and have aluminum brackets. The only thing that added any measurable weight beyond a regular build would be the AWIC.

Working on the carpeting for the firewalls and associated parts:
http://i.imgur.com/6Xr6Zash.jpg

[Hindsight]

Finally, all done. Car was out of commission for a whole month! I think I will probably not do any more mods to the car that require it to be non-running until next winter. It's basically already spring here and has been for pretty much all of February, with temps often in the 70's. Pretty crazy.

Firewalls are all carpeted and took some time to do extra stuff like the carpeted ECU cover panel, fully enclosing the rear sections of the center console, using 1/4" bolts to screw the floor pan in place instead of self-tapping metal screws, looming the wiring harness, and a half dozen other things I am forgetting to mention.

http://i.imgur.com/v643WsWh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/JoYlVtdh.jpg

[wallace18]

Looking Good! Now go and enjoy it!

[flynntuna]

Congratulations :cool: And thank you, your thread is inspiring.

[Hindsight]

Thanks Wallace and Flynntuna!

I'm going to change from Mobile 1 to Motul 8100 so I swung by Top Speed Motorsports today to pick some oil up. Their parking lot is always packed to the gills with GTR-s, and the odd Lambo, Porsche, Subie, or Evo. Mostly GTRs though. They crank out 1200+ HP GTRs all day long.

http://i.imgur.com/XOEt7Inh.jpg

[Tamra]

Looks great!

[Wayne Presley]

Thanks Wallace and Flynntuna!

I'm going to change from Mobile 1 to Motul 8100 so I swung by Top Speed Motorsports today to pick some oil up. Their parking lot is always packed to the gills with GTR-s, and the odd Lambo, Porsche, Subie, or Evo. Mostly GTRs though. They crank out 1200+ HP GTRs all day long.

http://i.imgur.com/XOEt7Inh.jpg

That splitter looks great :-)

[Hindsight]

Thanks Tamra and Wayne. And thanks again for the deal Wayne! Just a couple more weeks before I get to test it on the track.

[Mechie3]

oooh...R34!

[Hindsight]

oooh...R34!

I don't know why but there are tons of them here in Atlanta. At every cars and coffee event, you'll see 3-4 of them, minimum.

[Mechie3]

That's crazy considering they're not federally legal (no matter what the state says).

[FFRSpec72]

Looking very nice ! Track time !

[Hindsight]

Thanks Tony! Getting excited for the track day this weekend. I think I'm going to try to check and adjust my rear bump-steer before the weekend, and also triple-check the alignment one last time.

Over the last weekend, I replaced the OEM sway bar bushings and brackets (bushings were trashed and brackets sucked) with some new ones, with urethane bushings. I also fabricated a new drive-by-wire gas pedal mount. The one supplied with the kit is super flimsy and kept bending on me. I welded the new one up out of .125" aluminum and it's super sturdy now. I really need to add a gas pedal stop to help take stress of the pedal assembly and the bracket, but it's just lower on the priority list right now.

I also changed my oil.... swapped Mobile 1 for Motul 8100. I was seeing alarmingly high oil consumption, but no smoke from the tail pipe on startup, decel, accel, etc. Car is making great power and no CELs so I highly doubt anything is mechanically wrong like a broken ring-land or something. I'm going to see how the Motul does in terms of consumption and go from there. Because I have a remote oil cooler with -12 AN lines going to it, I have an extra 2-3 quarts of oil sitting in those lines and in the cooler itself so I wanted to be sure I got ALL the mobile 1 out of the car. This required me to take off the lines at my oil oil cooler sandwich plate which is unfortunately completely blocked by the exhaust manifold. So I had to take off the exhaust manifold so I could get the lines off and then blow compressed air through one of the lines to get the oil to come out the other line. Long story short: A simple oil change turned into a 4 hour long ordeal plus a trip to the Subaru dealer at $55 in new exhaust gaskets lol. But it's done now.

http://i.imgur.com/9hquAZth.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/oA4GmsWh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7JahSY5h.jpg


Oh yeah, a local tuner (Zen Motors) just expanded their shop and got a Mustang Dyno put in. They had an open house / dyno day event. While there, I saw this GTM that is for sale. My first time seeing a GTM in person.
http://i.imgur.com/Z85ROeZh.jpg

[redfogo]

Thanks Tony! Getting excited for the track day this weekend. I think I'm going to try to check and adjust my rear bump-steer before the weekend, and also triple-check the alignment one last time.

Over the last weekend, I replaced the OEM sway bar bushings and brackets (bushings were trashed and brackets sucked) with some new ones, with urethane bushings. I also fabricated a new drive-by-wire gas pedal mount. The one supplied with the kit is super flimsy and kept bending on me. I welded the new one up out of .125" aluminum and it's super sturdy now. I really need to add a gas pedal stop to help take stress of the pedal assembly and the bracket, but it's just lower on the priority list right now.

I also changed my oil.... swapped Mobile 1 for Motul 8100. I was seeing alarmingly high oil consumption, but no smoke from the tail pipe on startup, decel, accel, etc. Car is making great power and no CELs so I highly doubt anything is mechanically wrong like a broken ring-land or something. I'm going to see how the Motul does in terms of consumption and go from there. Because I have a remote oil cooler with -12 AN lines going to it, I have an extra 2-3 quarts of oil sitting in those lines and in the cooler itself so I wanted to be sure I got ALL the mobile 1 out of the car. This required me to take off the lines at my oil oil cooler sandwich plate which is unfortunately completely blocked by the exhaust manifold. So I had to take off the exhaust manifold so I could get the lines off and then blow compressed air through one of the lines to get the oil to come out the other line. Long story short: A simple oil change turned into a 4 hour long ordeal plus a trip to the Subaru dealer at $55 in new exhaust gaskets lol. But it's done now.


Oh yeah, a local tuner (Zen Motors) just expanded their shop and got a Mustang Dyno put in. They had an open house / dyno day event. While there, I saw this GTM that is for sale. My first time seeing a GTM in person.


What did you think of the GTM compared to your 818 as far as interior room and working on stuff in the engine bay room?

[Hindsight]

I didn't open up the engine bay so tough to tell really. The interior seemed smaller actually, but part of that could just be that the GTM has a roof and my 818 does not. Also the center console was large and high and that made it feel smaller too. The back of the car is REAL long. Pretty cool looking car in person.

[Hindsight]

Looks like the weather has conspired against me for my track day tomorrow. Going to be in the high 30's, raining or wintry mix. Rain may let up around 11am or so but with temps so cold, it will take the track a long time to dry off and I don't like running r-compound tires on such a cold track, so I will probably just sit this one out.

I've been working on the suspension a bit. Today I checked the rear bump steer. In the rear, you want zero toe change, or a little toe-in on compression. You adjust it with the upper trailing link which changes the lower toe links angle in relationship to one another. Previously, I had set this by ensuring those links were parallel but when checking my rear bump steer today, I found I had .027" of toe-OUT at 2" of compression which is bad. This is probably another part of why the car felt unsettled at the track last year (in addition to the front bump steer which I have already fixed). I set it today so it has just a hair of toe in on bump: 0.0046" of toe-in at 2" of compression.

Eating my lunch now and will head out and re-check and adjust the full alignment all the way around the car. Sucks that I won't be able to try out all these changes that I made due to the weather but there will be another track day soon.
Performance-oriented changes I have made since the last track day:
- Fixed front bump steer
- Adjusted rear bump steer
- Swapped 818S springs and shocks out for 818R springs and shocks
- Added front sway bar
- Re-adjusted ride height
- Added fuel surge tank
- Moved pushrod hole up on brake pedal for more leverage
- Installed 818R front splitter

http://i.imgur.com/l2efQL3h.jpg

[bbjones121]

Looks like the weather has conspired against me for my track day tomorrow. Going to be in the high 30's, raining or wintry mix. Rain may let up around 11am or so but with temps so cold, it will take the track a long time to dry off and I don't like running r-compound tires on such a cold track, so I will probably just sit this one out.

I've been working on the suspension a bit. Today I checked the rear bump steer. In the rear, you want zero toe change, or a little toe-in on compression. You adjust it with the upper trailing link which changes the lower toe links angle in relationship to one another. Previously, I had set this by ensuring those links were parallel but when checking my rear bump steer today, I found I had .027" of toe-OUT at 2" of compression which is bad. This is probably another part of why the car felt unsettled at the track last year (in addition to the front bump steer which I have already fixed). I set it today so it has just a hair of toe in on bump: 0.0046" of toe-in at 2" of compression.

Eating my lunch now and will head out and re-check and adjust the full alignment all the way around the car. Sucks that I won't be able to try out all these changes that I made due to the weather but there will be another track day soon.
Performance-oriented changes I have made since the last track day:
- Fixed front bump steer
- Adjusted rear bump steer
- Swapped 818S springs and shocks out for 818R springs and shocks
- Added front sway bar
- Re-adjusted ride height
- Added fuel surge tank
- Moved pushrod hole up on brake pedal for more leverage
- Installed 818R front splitter

http://i.imgur.com/l2efQL3h.jpg

So were you running without the front sway bar for awhile? How was it for just street driving. I have been debating on making one for my modified mounts.

[Canadian818]

That's a lot of changes, hopefully it all adds together to make a huge difference. I think based on others feedback everything but the swaybar will definitely help, not to say it won't, just not much info about using them on track.

[Hindsight]

bbjones yes I ran without a front sway bar up until fairly recently. It was fine for street driving. The S shocks and springs are really quite nice for street driving. They absorb the road really well while still feeling sporty.

I am just hoping all these changes don't result in oversteer tendency. Having the front bar should help that, but the stiffer rear springs and the front splitter may counteract that. We'll see.

[Scargo]

Give me throttle oversteer or give me death!

[Frank818]

give me throttle oversteer or give me death!

hahahahahh!!!!!!!!

[Hindsight]

After driving it on the track, I'll see how it does. My current plan is to probably go from 500# rear springs to 350# or 400# rear springs since the 500# springs are designed for a car with big aero on the back, which I don't have. If the car displays oversteer tendencies, I will probably attempt to dial it out with an aftermarket, large diameter adjustable front sway bar. I will probably purchase a rear aftermarket WRX sway bar and assume that it will fit in the front of the 818, just like the stock rear WRX bar fits in the front of the WRX. Stock is 17mm and I see sizes from 22 to 25mm are common. At ~$200 new, they aren't that expensive either.

[tmoretta]

I have a pair of Eibach 500 lb. springs I just removed from my 818 - (after only about 200 miles of use). PM me if I can send them to you cheap.

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the offer tomoretta but I already have 500# springs right now. If anything, I may go a little lighter in the rear, but I still need to track it first to see.

[tmoretta]

Oops - my bad! Actually I just changed to 500 lb. springs. What I have available is a pair of 400 lb.

[Hindsight]

Took her out today for a five hour long drive through the North Georgia Mountains to test out the suspension mods and alignment, as well as the front splitter. I never drive too fast on the street since the stakes are so high, so I wasn't able to push the car enough to determine whether it has over or understeer, but driving at 6 or 7 tenths, it seemed fairly neutral with possibly a slight tendency for oversteer. Right now I'd ideally like a (VERY) slight tendency toward understeer, but I'm really not going to know what it's doing until I get it on the track and can slide it out a bit. My opinion of the handling is based on a neutral corner (no braking, compression braking, or acceleration), just barely cracked constant throttle position. But all that said, it does drive very nice. Much more crisp and much less body roll. I did notice some side-hopping over bumps, which is not good, since these "R" Konis I have are not adjustable in compression (only rebound).

One thing I do notice is that I have a lot less traction with the 500# rear springs. The weight transfer to the rear under heavy acceleration just doesn't compare to the wimpy 275# springs. To be expected of course, and with the 275# springs, I was getting horrible corner exit understeer while rolling on the power because too much weight was transferring to the back. I do want a bigger turbo and more power at some point, probably this year, but already with only 270WHP, big sticky tires, and a limited slip, I'm spinning some in second gear.

http://i.imgur.com/X81UFmuh.jpg

[Aero STI]

Your comments about weight transfer and traction make me want to get stiffer springs even if I only have the S struts.

[Mitch Wright]

Without a rear wing it might be worth trying 350-400lb rear springs. Add the wing considering how the windshield effect air flow over the rear deck will be a factor.

[Hindsight]

Andrew, are you going to track the car, or mostly drag and roll race it? If the latter is the case, I'd leave the soft rear springs on there.

Mitch, yeah, I am concerned 500# rears are too stiff without a wing. I think the windshield would completely prevent the wing from working unless it was like 6' above the car. I have toyed around with the idea of swapping back and forth between the windshield and the "R" windscreen; running the windshield on the street and swapping it out for the "R" windscreen for the track which would allow me to run the spoiler, but honestly at this point, I've spent so much time and money on the car that I'm not really willing to track it super hard. When I do track it, I will drive at like 7 or 8 10ths. I'm still considering a Lemons, Spec E30, or other spec series dedicated track car that I can beat on without worrying about losing the exorbitant amount of money and time I have in my 818.

[Aero STI]

Andrew, are you going to track the car, or mostly drag and roll race it? If the latter is the case, I'd leave the soft rear springs on there.

Mitch, yeah, I am concerned 500# rears are too stiff without a wing. I think the windshield would completely prevent the wing from working unless it was like 6' above the car. I have toyed around with the idea of swapping back and forth between the windshield and the "R" windscreen; running the windshield on the street and swapping it out for the "R" windscreen for the track which would allow me to run the spoiler, but honestly at this point, I've spent so much time and money on the car that I'm not really willing to track it super hard. When I do track it, I will drive at like 7 or 8 10ths. I'm still considering a Lemons, Spec E30, or other spec series dedicated track car that I can beat on without worrying about losing the exorbitant amount of money and time I have in my 818.

I'm going to track the car, that's always been the long term plan. Hence the dry sump. The downforce created by the wing is going to be dependent on a number of factors. Profile, chord length, gurney length, width, height on car, position on car, etc.

The more I read on the GTC series of APR wings the less I wanted to use one. The 3D design is heavy on drag, with the center section more aggresive to produce downforce from the turbulent air coming off a coupe's roof, and less aggressive on the sides since they should be in cleaner air. The design has a huge drag penalty compared to a single profile design, especially in the cleaner air of an R.

On a wide wing, I'm targeting 71", as wide as Kevin Allen builds his GTUHD, there will be cleaner air on the sides of the car. I suspect there is something to be learned about wing positioning from the Miata folk who run topless. My plan is to put the wing level with the factory roll bar. My chassis mounting will likely be a bit further back than most I've seen.

[Hindsight]

Nice, can't wait to see it. With the engine mods you, the car is going to be insane on the track, but is going to require a lot of skill. I know you have a strong background in track racing so that shouldn't be an issue for you.

[Hindsight]

Headed to Road Atlanta for two days of racing this weekend. I'll try to get some pics and video with overlay.

[Canadian818]

Good luck!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Headed to Road Atlanta for two days of racing this weekend. I'll try to get some pics and video with overlay.
can't wait to watch the videos.

[bbjones121]

Can't wait! Good luck

[Sgt.Gator]

+1, let her rip.

[mikeb75]

Have a great time! Looking forward to the update.

[Hindsight]

Thanks for all the well wishes guys. Good news and bad news. I only got two sessions in (warm up session and a solo session). The car felt REALLY great. I'll write more later but it's 100x better than it was last year. So much more stable. Still not happy with brakes... they stop the car well but pedal effort is high and they feel vague and a bit soft. ABS is nice though. My best time during the first actual session was 1:51 which is only 2 seconds off my previous best run from last year. That was me taking it easy and also getting stuck behind a couple people, so I'm certain I'll be dropping time from last year and hope to get into the lower 1:40 range.

Out of the blue, right as I pulled onto the track for my third session, the engine started cutting out and bogging. I see my AFR spike when that happens and I've got misfire codes for all four cylinders so I'm fairly certain it is a fuel issue. Unfortunately, there isn't much I can do at the track to troubleshoot that because to get at the fuel pump, fuel surge tank, wiring, fuses, relays, and fuel pressure gauge, I need to pull the floor pan, shoulder harnesses, seats, and firewall. Big job. I limped home, bogging all the way, and am now going out to the garage in hopes of figuring out the cause in time to have it fixed for the second day of racing tomorrow.

Sadly, I didn't get any video. My gopro battery must have gone bad because I charged it to full and now it won't turn on. I was going to get some video using my phone, but wanted to wait until the third session to do that.

Will update later.

[Hindsight]

Well the issue ended up being my traction control system. Embarrassing really. The system is not very well calibrated and I never turn it on; mostly because I don't have enough power yet to need it. But when it does come on, it cuts the injectors, sometimes even if there isn't any wheel spin. When an instructor got in to ride along with me so he could sign me off as a solo, he nudged the traction control knob and turned it on. I saw him nudge it but didn't think that the knob turned. As I dug into the car this afternoon, I saw the knob there and realized it was on. So, problem solved. It is too bad I had to lose my track day because of it but there is a second day tomorrow and if it doesn't rain, I'll be able to run in that. Fingers crossed for weather.


There were about a DOZEN GT3s there:
http://i.imgur.com/RkAdBmqh.jpg (http://imgur.com/RkAdBmq)

http://i.imgur.com/J7dJ4WPh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/NPG46dWh.jpg

[Mitch Wright]

Always a great feeling when progress is made.

[Frank818]

There were about a DOZEN GT3s there:

How many RS?

[bbjones121]

Bummer, sorry to hear. At least it was not an issue at all, though frustrating

[Hindsight]

How many RS?

Frank, I'm not sure there were any RS there.

Back from day 2. Did four sessions today. I wasn't able to get any completely clean runs due to traffic, but on my best, I got a 1:45, which is a new personal best for me. My prev personal best was 1:49. Four seconds is a huge improvement, and I still have a ways to go on driving skill, so there is a lot more left in the car. If I can get these brakes sorted out and get some more seat time, maybe a few more suspension adjustments and start using my high boost map, I'm sure the car has 1:40 in it.

http://i.imgur.com/YivudiIh.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/1h90Fech.jpg

[Hindsight]

I forgot to mention: My fuel gauge stopped working after I installed the Hydramat inside the tank. I think it's because I either forgot to plug in the secondary fuel level sensor, or when I put everything back in the tank, I got the two fuel sensor floats tangled up on eachother or something else. So my gauge reads full all the time. During one fill-up at the race track over the weekend, I put 11 gallons in it which is more than I've ever put in the tank, and even though the tank was that low, I had zero issues with starvation in the corners. This means the surge tank and hydramat combination have fixed the issue. All for the bargain price of roughly $1,250 (counting the surge tank, pressure gauge, discriminator valve, AN hoses and fittings, second fuel pump, hydramat, relays and fuses) and a fair amount of work. But it's fixed.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I forgot to mention: My fuel gauge stopped working after I installed the Hydramat inside the tank. I think it's because I either forgot to plug in the secondary fuel level sensor, or when I put everything back in the tank, I got the two fuel sensor floats tangled up on eachother or something else. So my gauge reads full all the time. During one fill-up at the race track over the weekend, I put 11 gallons in it which is more than I've ever put in the tank, and even though the tank was that low, I had zero issues with starvation in the corners. This means the surge tank and hydramat combination have fixed the issue. All for the bargain price of roughly $1,250 (counting the surge tank, pressure gauge, discriminator valve, AN hoses and fittings, second fuel pump, hydramat, relays and fuses) and a fair amount of work. But it's fixed.

Hindsight,
Good to hear you had a good track day.
Glad your fuel system is working. It reminds me of my dry sump system, almost 3k and lots of hours.
Bob

[Frank818]

Was your 4sec improvement due to driving skill or improved car? Or which one to what extent...

You went to a huge installation to fix your starvation, I damn hope the surge tank is not that mandatory for street driving, I don't have the space you had back there. 1300 is quite some money, but it fixed the issue and on the other hand in my case I "wasted" quite more than that to please my DMV, who will fix absolutely nothing and will cause other issues, so I'd go hands down with the super noisy surge tank.

[Hindsight]

Bob, thanks for the words of encouragement!

Frank, most of the 4 seconds was the car. I did spend a little more time researching the track online to improve my line, but the car was just much more stable and capable thanks to the suspension updates.

I've been following your struggles with the DMV and I am sure am sorry to hear it has been such a hassle for you. I think if you stick with it, it will be very rewarding in the long run, but I can understand how frustrating it must be.

[Frank818]

Now that you've driven and tracked the car more, are you still considering a custom high end suspension?

[Hindsight]

Hey Frank. Yes I am still considering it but I think there is a fairly low chance of me pulling the trigger any time real soon. $5k or so is a lot of cash that could buy a lot of other things. I have no doubt it would help me go faster, mostly by keeping a firmer grip on the pavement while hitting curbs and bumps on the track, but for right now, if I had an extra $5k laying around, there are probably other things I would put the money toward. More aero is quite high on the list, as is better brakes, and also more crash protection (considering a roll-cage). Also, more power.

Going to install the small master cylinder, new brake pads, and larger aftermarket adjustable front sway bar this weekend.

[Scargo]

Was asking John George what shocks he was using on his new Gen 3 coupe ST2 build and he said the FFR Koni reds. Right out of the gate his car seemed pretty well sorted and fast last week at VIR. So, wondering what you were running? Also, by what I gathered, you are having some understeer issues. How will the new sway bar help that?

[Hindsight]

Hey Glyn, I was running the FFR Koni reds (single adjustable). My only issue with those shocks is that shocks are not one-size-fits-all. They are supposed to be valved based on the spring rate and other factors. The rebound adjustability buys you a bit more "range" but you don't have compression adjustment so what you get is what you get. For right now, it's probably going to need to be good enough for me since I don't want to drop $5k for a perfect setup. Another note is that by my calculations, to hit an "ideal" suspension frequency of around 2.0hz, I'd need 275# front springs and 300# rear springs. That seems really soft, but that's what the numbers say. That setup would almost certainly require a front sway bar, and probably even a rear one as well which would require something custom/universal. I'm sticking with what I have for now, which gets me 2.5hz rear and 2.18hz front.

So, at first, I thought I was having understeer issues but as I continued pushing the car, it felt more like oversteer. The balance is pretty close right now though. The oversteer appears more at higher speeds. From my research, this is typical with mid and rear-engine cars (low speed understeer and high speed oversteer). Stock bar is 17mm. I have an adjustable 22mm Whiteline bar on order. I'm going to see if it fits the 818 (it's for a rear WRX so it SHOULD), and run it at the loosest setting and go from there. I can go back to the 17mm stock bar, or adjust the 22mm bar to be stiffer until I like the balance.

On the track, there is a turn at Road Atlanta that I'm taking at about 125-130mph. It's not much of a turn at all; just requires the smallest amount of steering input, but it happens at the crest of a small hill. The back feels loose there and like it wants to rotate. I might need to buy or fab a rear diffuser to see if that helps hold the car down a bit more, and if that doesn't work, I may need to try a rear wing and see if it is effective at all considering I have a windshield (I thought it wouldn't be but Jim Schenk told me it would still provide some down force). As-is, I am letting off the gas a bit before the hill crest to bleed some speed and then applying a little bit of throttle as I go over it to keep weight transferred to the rear. To go WOT the whole way I need more grip.

[Frank818]

Why is 2.0hz the ideal? Is it for everyone?

Your technique at the hill crest is very similar to Eau Rouge at Spa-Francorchamps. lollll OMG I would love so much driving my illegal 818 on that track!
At 125-130mph aero should give some effects. Enough we don't know, but it should do something.

[phil1734]

It sounds like you have a major aero imbalance. There are many GT cars with greenhouses that use rear wings to great effect so I wouldn't worry too much about the windshield thing.

[Hindsight]

Frank, there is a lot of opinion on suspension frequency, but the nice thing about it is that it CAN be used to directly compare the stiffness of one car vs another, unlike spring rates. Most people say that around 1.4 to 1.5 is a good "sporty" rate, less is good for comfort, and 1.6 to 2.0 is good for street/track, but considered a bit stiff. Above 2.0 is track only; and 2.5 to 3.0 and higher is mostly for track-only cars with a lot of aero. As for your car, you could always tow it to the track!!

Phil, it is definitely possible that I have an imbalance seeing as how I have a front splitter and no rear wing to balance it out. I need more track time to figure it out for sure. I will see what the thicker front bar does for me and if I still have imbalance, I will add a rear wing and try to get it as high as the windshield which should be pretty easy to do.

[DanielsDM]

Hindsight,
Sounds like you're having fun with the tuning of a new car. I'm looking forward to it, just have to finish the car first :rolleyes:. There are so many adjustments that can affect the balance of the car, most changes affect the car in more than one way. Thus tuning is more art than science. If you haven't already I recommend getting a copy of Carrol Smith's Tune To Win, it was written almost 40 years ago, but the physics haven't changed. Also check out Buddy Fey's blog (buddyfey.blogspot.com). Buddy has worked as a race engineer since the early 90s and is a great guy, I've worked with him on getting Davidson Racing's cars converted to endurance racers (He did the setup I just designed and machined various parts).

-Daniel

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the input Daniel. I do have the "How to make your car handle" book, and like the ones you suggest, it is a bit dated but it's all still applicable today. I'll check out the book and blog you mentioned.

[Hindsight]

Installed the 7/8" master cylinder tonight. Put the master cylinder pushrod in the OEM hole on the brake pedal. I then put some Carbotech XP10 pads in. First test drive and bedding went well and the new setup feels better than my old. I need to put some more miles on it to really see what I think about it.

The 22mm sway bar showed up. 22mm looks a lot thicker than I thought it would! I am concerned it might be too thick for the light 818 but we shall see.

[RM1SepEx]

What were your old pads? My Hawk HPS need more initial bite for improved feel, I may change to something different.

[Mitch Wright]

Is your your 22mm bar solid or hollow? That will be a big change that you will feel right away.

[Hindsight]

Dan, at first I used Hawk HPS and they were AWFUL. I had to press the brake pedal super hard at parking lot speeds to get it to stop - it was a scary feeling. I upgraded to Ferrodo DS 2500 and it was an improvement, but still not fully happy with them, especially on the track because they seemed to fade quickly. These carbotechs have the added bonus of shooting out sparks at night, making me feel like an Indy car driver lol.

Mitch, it's solid. I agree, it will be a HUGE change, possibly too big. The problem is that no one makes an aftermarket rear bar for the WRX that is smaller than 22mm. So you have to go from 17mm stock to 22mm aftermarket. the aftermarket one is adjustable so I will start full loose and see what happens.

[ben1272]

Frank, there is a lot of opinion on suspension frequency, but the nice thing about it is that it CAN be used to directly compare the stiffness of one car vs another, unlike spring rates. Most people say that around 1.4 to 1.5 is a good "sporty" rate, less is good for comfort, and 1.6 to 2.0 is good for street/track, but considered a bit stiff. Above 2.0 is track only; and 2.5 to 3.0 and higher is mostly for track-only cars with a lot of aero. As for your car, you could always tow it to the track!!

Phil, it is definitely possible that I have an imbalance seeing as how I have a front splitter and no rear wing to balance it out. I need more track time to figure it out for sure. I will see what the thicker front bar does for me and if I still have imbalance, I will add a rear wing and try to get it as high as the windshield which should be pretty easy to do.

Doesnt Factory five only recommend front splitters when used with their corresponding rear wings? I assume they must have some data that tells them this, given their wind tunnel testing. Why not drop the spiltter and see if things improve, rather than building up a wing to try and solve? Seems like more work and it may not be your problem.

[Hindsight]

I put the Whiteline 22mm sway bar on today and sadly, it did not fit. The driver side fits ok but the passenger side contacts the coilover no matter what I do. I am using universal sway bar bushings with matching universal brackets (both for the OEM and the aftermarket bar). These are nice because they are slotted so you have some adjustment there, and can move the entire sway bar up or down an inch or so. In addition, you can lengthen or shorten the FFR-provided upright swaybar links via their threads, to bring the ends of the bar up or down to help with clearance. But no matter what I did, I couldn't get it to clear the coilovers.

My options are to go with softer rear springs, drill new holes further inward on the OEM sway bar to make it "adjustable" and get more force out of it (only room for one hole on each side, about 3/4" on-center from the old one which should help some but not sure how much), or get a universal style sway bar (along these lines: https://www.summitracing.com/ga/parts/cur-ce-9901-17/overview/). Once you move to the universal style, the sky is the limit in terms of sizes and adjustability.

At this point, since more work and money are involved, I'm putting the OEM bar back on and am going to find a parking lot where I can do some low-speed skid pad tests to triple check the balance of the car without influence of aero.

[Scargo]

The first thing that came to mind was modifying the bar to clear the coil. All the custom stuff I find looks to heavy for the front. Whiteline has this chart (http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/010barup.pdf) that may be helpful.
I would sure consider cutting and pasting and making something work. Welding is a bit of a problem but I believe it can be done with a perforated sleeve, and bars can be re-heat-treated. But I'm just speculating. I've not tried reworking a swaybar. I don't know if you can get away with spot re-hardening.

[RM1SepEx]

The 818 needs a straight tubular sway bar with adjustable effective arm lengths... I'm not sure if it can be done

[Mitch Wright]

I have made straight .750 4130 bars for my 818. Haven't installed and ran it yet but fit when I mocked it up.

I have also cut the ends off a bar and either weld a piece of tubing or flat stock to the end with a series of holes for your adjustment, works great.

[RM1SepEx]

Mitch, how much did you have to move one of the mounts up or down and which one did you move?

[Mitch Wright]

I mocked up the prototype using the FFR mount but moved the bar mounts up as high as I felt safe on the pads. Once I get moved in I will get it installed, I think I would go up which would give me more room around the spring. I have also pondered welding tabs on the upper ball joint mount and attach the bar links there. As soon as I can get to the proto type I will take a picture.
I have also played around with welding a small pedestal on the lower frame rail for the bar. Got lazy and didn't want to take the front end back apart to do the job so figured I would use the FFR mounts. I almost cut the mounts off during the build to save a little weight, now I am glad I didn't.

[Hindsight]

Been a while since my last update, but I haven't really done anything to the car. Just been enjoying it. My Roebling Road track day is coming up next weekend and I'm excited for that. Wish I would have had a new sway bar and some aero for it, but I will make-do with what I have now.

Road Atlanta has their "Mitty" event this weekend and Wayne said he was going so I stopped by to check it out and see Factory Five's new track-mule in person. There was also a lot of vintage, and Porsche racing which was awesome to watch. I brought my dog Fletcher, who wasted no time making friends with the guys at the Koni booth. I wonder if they'll give me a big discount now? lol.

The 818R that Wayne put together is super nice. Paint looks great in person. Pics don't do it justice. It had huge carbon fiber side scoops which are really cool and would work well for my plan to locate an oil cooler behind them. I might get a pair. There is a new wing on this 818R, but it is still from APR.

Here are some pics I took today. There were SO many cool cars at the event that I could have taken a thousand pics and not captured everything cool there.

http://i.imgur.com/2326yC7h.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Q3u2KnYh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7rYOHPQh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/HQLFNEYh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/WxBFUryh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/m5UKInhh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ZJBNF05h.jpg

[Hindsight]

http://i.imgur.com/daduyHph.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/j4lnvQTh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xHQrtBdh.jpg

[metros]

Thanks for sharing the pictures. Some great looking cars there!

I'm really happy that FFR decided to bring the 818 out this year. Looking forward to seeing what it can do.

[Hindsight]

Me too Metros! With Wayne handling everything from the mechanicals to the driving, the car should be very successful.

I think the skidpad challenge may be unfortunately rained out today. But there is the GRM challenge coming up at VIR in May and that's the big road racing event. That will be where the 818R can really shine.

[Hindsight]

The movie "Baby Driver" was filmed in Atlanta. A local Subaru repair shop procured and modified all the red WRX stunt cars used in the movie. The WRXAtlanta group held a photoshoot today with one of the main stunt cars used in the movie. This one was rear wheel drive and had a hydraulic rear parking brake added for the stunts.

Red White and Blue for the 4th of July!

http://i.imgur.com/E54WO85h.jpg

[fastzrex]

The movie "Baby Driver" was filmed in Atlanta. A local Subaru repair shop procured and modified all the red WRX stunt cars used in the movie. The WRXAtlanta group held a photoshoot today with one of the main stunt cars used in the movie. This one was rear wheel drive and had a hydraulic rear parking brake added for the stunts.

Red White and Blue for the 4th of July!

Very cool!

[Hindsight]

I've ordered most of what I need to fabricate a new front sway bar. Using 3/4" 4130 tubing for the center section, some universal mounts, and will make the arms out of 1.25" x .25" steel. Haven't figured out what I will do for uprights just yet but am leaning toward swedge tubes with rod-ends. Will post pics of the process.

[Hindsight]

Starting to work on the sway bar......

http://i.imgur.com/XaMJyYPh.jpg

[fastzrex]

Hindsight, thanks for showing your build up of sway bars. With so many other items to do myself, I appreciate all the work on this area as it will eventually help my build.

[Hindsight]

You are very welcome Mark. Since my car is done and I am now dialing everything in, my biggest hope is that I can help other builders who may not want to have to figure out things like ideal front sway bar size or how to get the brakes working and balanced properly.

[capt. bill]

Hi: I have the same padded door panels....I added netting to add storage where the indented section is; works fine. Capt. Bill
Really wow..... maybe I should just stick to the dash with the small scuff-scratch on it and not take the chance on another one arriving in worse shape? Aside from that scuff, it's basically perfect.

[Hindsight]

That's a great idea!

[07FIREBLADE]

Do you have pics of the netting you used?

[flynntuna]

My old Porsche had something similar, finding useful space for storage is a bonus in this car.

[Frank818]

I use 2 nets per door, they are something like 50x200mm.

[Hindsight]

Haven't done anything to the car in a while. I started on the sway bar a while back but haven't touched it. Too busy with other stuff. This weekend I'm trying to carve out a bunch of time to start and finish on the following:
- Finish fabricating sway bar
- Remove the proportioning valves for the rear brake calipers (just not happy with them and want to try running without)
- Install new Hawk DTC-60 brake pads front and rear and install titanium brake pad shims
- Install speed bleeders and bleed brakes
- Drill some more holes in the brake pedal to continue playing with leverage and pedal feel/effort
- Corner balance

Need to get this all done this weekend because it's the last weekend I have before my next track day. Will post some pics when the sway bar is finished.

[Frank818]

- Drill some more holes in the brake pedal to continue playing with leverage and pedal feel/effort

Won't drilling too many weaken the metal and since we need to put 10tons of force on the pedal it may snap off?

[Harley818]

Haven't done anything to the car in a while. I started on the sway bar a while back but haven't touched it. Too busy with other stuff. This weekend I'm trying to carve out a bunch of time to start and finish on the following:
- Finish fabricating sway bar
- Remove the proportioning valves for the rear brake calipers (just not happy with them and want to try running without)
- Install new Hawk DTC-60 brake pads front and rear and install titanium brake pad shims
- Install speed bleeders and bleed brakes
- Drill some more holes in the brake pedal to continue playing with leverage and pedal feel/effort
- Corner balance

Need to get this all done this weekend because it's the last weekend I have before my next track day. Will post some pics when the sway bar is finished.

How does the prop valve work? I haven't looked into it yet, but now my fronts are locking up and rears not. I have it set all the way out. Does it provide less pressure to the rears when its all the way out? or less as you dial it in further.
I'm going to try drilling a higher hole myself just to get a little more leverage.

[Hindsight]

Frank, the hole is very small and it goes all the way at the leading edge of the pedal. All the force will be exerted behind the hole, and the pedal arm is very thick and wide. It won't cause any issues.

Harley, I'm using the Wilwood valves. They work by restricting flow to whatever line they are on. If you install it per FFR instructions, you install it on the FRONT brake lines. Two things wrong with that: 1 - You are reducing overall brake pressure and increasing pedal effort (you are reducing pressure to the front lines in order to try to increase the amount of work the rear brakes are doing in relation to the front) and 2 - These proportion valves don't actually reduce pressure - they delay it. They restrict flow which reduces pressure but eventually (a matter of a second or two), the pressure will equalize and it will be as if the valve doesn't even exist. Pointless in my opinion... I want something consistent, or nothing at all.

After a lot of thinking, research, talking to other forum members, etc, I've determined that the only way to fix the brakes on the 818 is to replace the rear calipers with something closer in size to the front calipers (what Bob did), or to use a dual master cylinder setup with a balance bar between them (like the Wilwood pedal setup). I wouldn't run the Wilwood pedal box with Subaru calipers though because the Wilwood box uses dual 3/4" master cylinders and that's way too much master for the Subaru calipers (though Wilwood might sell smaller master cylinders, I'm not sure). I'm basing that on the fact that I'm running a SINGLE 7/8" master on my Subaru calipers and I still don't have enough leverage (whereas the Wilwood uses dual 3/4"), and based on the fact that a friend of mine has an 818R with the Wilwood pedal box and the same calipers that I have and he says pedal effort is awful.

I don't want to blow thousands more on brakes at this point, so I'm hoping that with the right pedal leverage, and the right pads, I can make my 06/07 calipers work well at the track as-is, even if the front-rear bias isn't ideal. Yes it would stop quicker with more rear braking force but I'm hoping I can still be "competitive" with what I have now because compared to a lot of cars, even with a less than ideal front to rear bias, it should still stop extremely well due to the light weight of the car. I MIGHT experiment with running a rear brake pad that is 1 step more aggressive than the front at some point, but right now that's as far as I'm going to take it. Until I win the lottery, and I'm not yet playing so......

[Bob_n_Cincy]

hindsight
Here is another option to increase rear brake pressure with your original rear calipers,

http://www.ecihotrodbrakes.com/brake_pressure_multiplier.html

I like my brake the way they are now.
If I saw this product before I did my larger calipers, I probably would have gone this route.
Bob

[Harley818]

Thanks Bob, that looks promising.

I haven't finished fiddling with my brake set up yet. I'm getting lock up on the left front before the right, and rears aren't locking up at all with the proportional valve all the way out.
So this might work to add it this multiplier. If Hindsight doesn't try it before I do, I might give it a shot.

I'll have to re-read your thread to see what mods you had to do to add the front callipers to the rear. That would be another option for me.

[Harley818]

Actually just re-reading the brake thread I was reminded of Rasmus suggestion....
The best "Poor Man's Big Brake Kit" in my opinion for the front of a WRX is Z32 Nissan Aluminum calipers, with KNS Brakes Z32 to WRX adapter. Legacy GT/B9 Tribeca rotor.

He said in post 12 that KNS sells the whole set up, less pads, for $400. That sounds reasonable.
Then in the next post there was a suggestion to do the H6 upgrade in the rear for pretty cheap. But, If i'm changing the front to the KNS kit, then I may as well use the 2pot WRX fronts on the back like Bob did.

Might have to look into this swap.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Here is a link to what I have been running for almost 2 years.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12534-MRG-MotorSports-818S-Build&p=173658&viewfull=1#post173658


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12534-MRG-MotorSports-818S-Build&p=218828&viewfull=1#post218828

bob

[longislandwrx]

Harley the fronts in the back is a cool setup but certainly needs more fabrication.

The H6 bolts right on and is a lighter setup, and cheap to boot.. about $100 plus pads.

both good choices.

[Hindsight]

Do you know the piston area of the rear H6 calipers?

[longislandwrx]

you dont change the calipers, just the rotors and brackets...

more brake torque but same piston area,

pistons are whatever you have now in the rear.

i think most of the rears have 1.5" pistons so

Caliper piston area - 1.767"^2

Effective caliper piston area - 3.5325"^2 (sliding)

[Hindsight]

Ah ok thanks.

[Hindsight]

Sway bar fabrication is complete. It's installed but I still need to cut down the swaybar links that FFR provides because they are too long. Once that's done, I should be able to test drive and see how it feels.

I hadn't welded chromoly before. It was a challenge keeping it between 400 and 600 degrees during welding.

https://i.imgur.com/YxC6hTwh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AIHkkG4h.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QEx1FKrh.jpg

[Frank818]

You are welding chromoly? Is there something you cannot weld?

[Canadian818]

Actually just re-reading the brake thread I was reminded of Rasmus suggestion....
The best "Poor Man's Big Brake Kit" in my opinion for the front of a WRX is Z32 Nissan Aluminum calipers, with KNS Brakes Z32 to WRX adapter. Legacy GT/B9 Tribeca rotor.

He said in post 12 that KNS sells the whole set up, less pads, for $400. That sounds reasonable.
Then in the next post there was a suggestion to do the H6 upgrade in the rear for pretty cheap. But, If i'm changing the front to the KNS kit, then I may as well use the 2pot WRX fronts on the back like Bob did.

Might have to look into this swap.

I'm using the KNS kit with aluminum Z32 calipers and STI rotors up front.

[Hindsight]

All wrapped up and took it for a test drive. Feels quite a bit different with this bar vs the OEM bar. Turn-in is crazy crisp and I can feel the front tires doing more work. I'm not comfortable driving and cornering as fast as I would need to in order to really test the bar on public roads so I'm going to either need to find a parking lot where they do AutoX in, or just wait for my next track day on the 22nd.

Now, back out to work on the brakes.


https://i.imgur.com/oQrVfV0h.jpg

[Mitch Wright]

Looks great Jeff.

[RM1SepEx]

sketch up your bar for us? specs on tubing used... what did you do re moving the bar clamps on the frame, move the lower one up?

[Samiam1017]

how did you fiure out what size bar to start with ? did you measure the factory bar or find out what it rates at and just start there? thanks sam

[Hindsight]

Thanks Mitch.

Dan, shopping list from McMaster:
2x Tight-Tolerance Hardened 4140 Alloy Steel Bar, 1/4" Thick, 1-1/4" Wide, 1 Foot Long (these are the arms)
1x Easy-to-Weld 4130 Alloy Steel Round Tube, 0.120" Wall Thickness, 3/4" OD, 6 Feet Long (this is the bar)

Then some 3/4" universal sway bar mounting brackets with poly bushings (I got from Amazon but you can get from Summit or wherever).

I can get you the exact measurements and a sketch but essentially I just cut the 3/4" bar down to 42.5" (I believe, I need to re-check) in length, drilled a 3/4" hole through one end of the bar, and then some 3/8" holes spaced 1" apart at the other end. I did trim the arms down to about 9" in total length (from the 12" length they come in). Slid the arms onto the ends of the bar so that the bar sticks out about 1/8" (to give better welding surface), then TIG welded both sides of the arms to the bar. I bolted the universal sway bar brackets to the mounting tabs on the frame that were put there by FFR for that purpose, however, with a straight swaybar (unlike the rear Subaru unit which is all bent and curved), the holes in the mounting tab are not in the right place and the bar will be at an angle. I used the stock holes on the driver's side mounting tab, and had to drill a hole on the top of the passenger side mounting tab as far up as I felt was safe; I didn't have to drill one lower because there is a square opening in the lower-middle of the mounting tab that can serve as the bolt hole for the lower bolt on the bracket. The universal sway bar brackets are slotted, so I moved the passenger side bracket up as high as it would go, and the driver side almost as long as it would go and that got me even. I double checked for square by measuring to the frame, and also using a digital level (setting the bar to the same level the car frame was at - seeing as how my garage isn't perfectly flat).

I borrowed some corner scales from a friend and hoping tomorrow I can borrow another guy's alignment rack to do the corner balancing. Getting close to being prepared for my next track day.

[metros]

Looks good! I think there would be a market if one of the vendors wanted to create a batch of these - hint hint...

[Mitch Wright]

Jeff and I have been traveling the same path with some slight differences in approach on how the bar adjust. Mine is not a direct bolt on, I raise the bar on the pads which creates a little more clearance between the sway bar arm and spring/shock.
I don't have photos of my finished bar but here is my mock-up.
732397324073241
I need more testing before ready for primetime.

[longislandwrx]

just needs so bright powdercoat to really pop

much nicer than the ill fitting factory bar. i'd buy one if ever offered.

[Hindsight]

Thanks everyone. Mitch, I actually forgot that you built some stand-offs to space the bar forward more, out away from the perches. That is a really good idea which would allow more clearance to the coilover spring, while not shortening the arm length. I was thinking about just putting a 1/2" aluminum shim between the sway bar mount and the frame mounting pad, but it's basically the same thing.

I didn't think people would be interested in a bar. Part of why is that not everyone complains about oversteer on the 818. It really depends on the tire sizes you run front vs rear, and the spring rates your run. Everyone is running something different so not everyone will want or need a front bar. There also just aren't that many people seriously pushing their 818 at the track yet, at least, not that I know of. I'd guess less than a dozen? As more people track their cars, there may be a consensus.

The other reason I didn't think people would be interested is the cost. To do these 100% by hand... all the TIG welding, cutting, drilling, radiusing, etc, and then get them powder coated, I'd guess I would have to charge $500-$600. About 3 hours of labor is required to make each bar, I think (now that I have the dimensions sorted out). I could cut the labor down by having a machine shop pre-cut, drill, and radius the arms, but I'd need to do that in a batch to make it worthwhile which would require a group purchase.

TL;DR: If someone really wants one, I'll make them one by hand and fine tune the price from there.

[RM1SepEx]

Thanks for the specs!

[DanielsDM]

The bar looks great.
Did you do any calculations to estimate how much it will change the wheel rate? Or taking a build it, test it, see how it does, re-built and re-test approach?

[Hindsight]

Yes, I did the math on the OEM bar. It was 83 inch pounds. My new bar is adjustable from 100 to 181 inch pounds. I figured this range of 120% to 218% increase in rate over current would be an adequate range to get me where I need to be. If 218% increase isn't enough, I'll have to build another bar but I'm going to be very surprised if that is required because it's pretty stiff at the 181 inch pound setting I have it at currently. My gut guess is that I'll need to either leave it here, or move it to the middle adjustment setting which will give me 132 inch pounds.

[Carlsonmj]

Nice job. Do you still have the OEM bar?

You were right, the aftermarket one I had on my donor is too thick. Now that I am a bit further down the road on my build, it is evident that the aftermarket bar just isn't going to work.

[Hindsight]

I do still have the OEM bar, yes. Sitting in my shed.

[Hindsight]

Getting ready for another track day this Friday.

Hawk DTC-60 brake pads are installed, as are the titanium brake pad shims and speed bleeders. I've bled the brakes but they still feel a bit spongy so I'll have to try re-bleeding them one more time (had to bleed them because I removed my proportioning valves from the front brake lines). Moving the master cylinder pushrod higher is not helping with a firm pedal feel but it still just feels off to me. While bedding the brake pads last night, I noticed that the fronts lock up quite easy and the car dives a good bit - real evidence that the rear brakes aren't doing enough. I'll just have to live with it - or decide to fork out the dough for a wilwood pedal cluster and larger rear calipers. Really don't want to have to deal with re-routing and re-wiring my ABS system for that though.

All that's left is to do the corner balancing and I'll be ready for Friday. I should have some GoPro video up sometime this weekend. Hopefully the new mods will help me shave another second or two off my lap times. I sure would love to break down into the 1:30s but I'm a long 4 seconds away from that. I also haven't had a chance to play with the sway bar adjustment so I guess I'll be doing that on the track.

[Wayne Presley]

Good luck!!!

[Mitch Wright]

Have fun

[Hindsight]

Thanks guys! I'm finally ready. Even wrapped up the corner balancing at 11pm tonight. Very happy to have finally done that. Been waiting a year for it.

https://i.imgur.com/NM6zFNih.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nANeXYOh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZULPhxth.jpg

[phil1734]

I'm a little bit jealous even though mine came in some 250lbs lighter.

Do you think you could still hit those numbers with your weight in the car? And did you remember to disconnect your fancy new sway bar?

[Mitch Wright]

Nice, I assume that is with driver?

[Hindsight]

Phil and Mitch:

That is without driver, but with a full tank of gas. I read online that driver weight wouldn't cross-weight and I was in a super hurry to get this done last night because I needed to go to bed. I tested it this morning with me in it ant it came to 49.7% so I need to re-adjust a bit today.

I did remember to undo my sway bar links, and also set the tire pressures.

My 818 has always been fat. I have NO idea why. I have no sound deadening except for what little I added around the fuel surge tank. I'm running Enkei RPF-1 wheels which are known to be light (though I do have 18" wheels in the back which are heavier than 17). Momo racing seats that weigh only like 15lbs each. My engine is stripped down (no air pump, power steering, etc). The only thing that would cause my 818 to be heavier than most is the AWIC and the remote oil cooler, but even then, I think plenty of guys running AWIC come in a lot lighter than me.

Really baffled at why it's this heavy.

[RetroRacing]

Looks great! Good luck and keep us informed.
Yes, we found that the rear brakes do as much work as the fronts, so we actually have the same master size front and rear with DT70 up front and DT60 in the rear with a wilwood set up, and the rods neutral. Thing will pull you eyes out under braking!

[Hindsight]

Retro, which wilwood brake setup do you have? There are two different kits offered and only one of them works for the 06/07 spindles that I have. One kit has 6 piston front and 4 piston rear, and the other has 4 piston front and 4 piston rears but the rears are smaller than on the bigger kit. Only that latter kit works with the 06/07 psindles. Do you find the Wilwood calipers to be sturdy? They just seem so minimal, like they'd flex.

[DanielsDM]

Good luck on Friday.
My $.02 on corner weighting: 1) Has to be done with the driver in the car and anti-roll bars disconnected. If doing it by yourself set the correct amount of weight in the driver's seat, bags of sand, fertilizer, wood pellets etc... work good for that. 2) After the corner weighting is done reconnect the bars, make sure it doesn't change the corner weight values. If it does adjust the links until it gets back to the previous values.

[Mitch Wright]

Agree on the amount of work the rear brakes do on the car, down the road looking into a pedal assembly could be worth doing. At least for track duty if you can't get the results from your current set up.
What Daniel suggest for drivers weight in the seat is common practice. The only thing I do differently is I install the sway bar links once I have the corners done while the car is on the scales. I just make sure the link that I have disconnected is adjusted so the bolt just slides into the bar or lower control arm. Either way works.

[Hindsight]

Thanks guys. Yeah I did re-adjust it this morning with driver weight in the driver seat, 160lbs. It only changed it 0.7%, but I adjusted that down to 0%, and it also required me to update the sway bar link length on one side after the updated corner balance was complete.

This is what I'm at now, with driver weight in the car:
https://i.imgur.com/zCbaAwHh.jpg

[Sgt.Gator]

I'll add it to the post your weights thread. Thanks.

[Hindsight2.0]

Oh wonderful - let everyone be sure to know that I have the fattest 818 out there LOL!

[Hindsight]

What a day. So damn hot and sunny! 86+ degrees on the track today.

Car is still overheating when the temps get above high 70's. I can go a couple of laps before I start seeing coolant temps over 225. It will climb from 225 to 235 fairly quickly in the course of half a lap or so at Road Atlanta. But that track has great big long straights and it is tough on a cooling system and brakes. I didn't have temp issues at Roebling which has very few places where you are wide open for long. My oil temps climb then too but I think it's mostly due to the coolant temps climbing. I will be replacing the OE radiator with the Mishimoto one I have sitting in my garage, and also adding some really well-sealed ducting for it. Today on the track, I had to alternate between hot laps and cool-down laps every session. Very frustrating after you've passed a bunch of cars!

Sway Bar:
The sway bar made a huge difference on the track but I'm surprised that even at the firmest setting, it still wasn't quite enough to get me to where I want to be. I really can't feel any understeer still, no matter how I enter a corner (IE late apexing and accelerating). But I DO notice that the rear is much, much less loose. So at least I know I'm heading in the right direction. The car feels much more planted now and I can bang curbs harder than ever before and the car doesn't seem upset by it. I catch some air in turn 3 with the right wheels and tires at the apex and when it comes down, it feels very planted. At this point, my options are to try some springs that are 50# lighter in the rear, fabricate a 1" sway bar to replace the 3/4" one I just built, or use a 1" block of aluminum spacer between the frame and sway bar mounting bracket. That would all me to drill another hole in the control arms that is further inboard, giving me more rate on the bar. Without the spacer, the coilover spring would block the swaybar link. Mitch did something similar on his mounts. I think this is the easiest thing to do, and cheapest so I'll probably go that route. Plus I won't have to deal with corner balancing it again.

Brakes:
I really like the Hawk DTC-60 pads. Unfortunately they didn't work miracles like I had hoped but they are a big improvement to the Carbotech XP10. They dealt with heat better. I did experience some fade at times but unlike the XP10, they would generally recover by the next braking zone. I experimented with a higher hole for the master cylinder push-rod but the pedal was just too spongy so I put it back to the FFR-specified hole. I did notice that even in the FFR-specified hole that I've been using for a year, after installing the DTC-60 pads and titanium pad shims, the pedal definitely became softer. I did bleed the hell out of the brakes a couple nights ago, running like 16 ounces of expensive brake fluid through them, aided by a full set of 4 speed-bleeders. I really love the speed bleeders and highly suggest them! Very fast, and makes one-man bleeding work great. Much better than the motive pressure bleeder IMHO. Back to braking performance, I hit the ABS a lot more with these pads and no proportion valves. Although they seemed to fade a little at times during a 130 mph stop, pressing on the pedal even harder resulted in even better stopping. I think that's why I hit the ABS so much. If I decide to spend time and money on brakes, I might try adding the brake booster and some cooling ducts. If I want to spend more time and money, I'll get the Wilwood setup and call it a day.

Harry's Lap Timer totally failed me today. It's always used to worked fine but today it wouldn't auto-start despite saying it was ready and had GPS fix. I believe the GPS fix just wasn't good enough because when it did start once, it wouldn't reset the lap as I crossed the finish line. A number of people had the same issue today. I guess I need to drop $150 for an external GPS receiver if I want it to work. So unfortunately, I have no lap time data to determine how much my mods helped me (if at all). Car sure seemed fast though. I got some Go-Pro so I'll try to time some of the runs by watching those videos.

Pics and maybe some video to follow. Video won't be that entertaining due to the amount of time I'm doing cool-down laps.

[Hindsight]

Here is a video of one of the sessions and some pics following. Basically every other lap is a 3/10ths cool-down lap while I let the coolant and oil temps come back down. Watching one of the other sessions I recorded and using a stop-watch, I caught a 1:44.x time which is on-par with my best ever, and that was the last run of the day in peak temps. I believe that I should be able to get to 1:42 in cooler weather, and maybe with an update to the swaybar.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-VsGZ2ijik

https://i.imgur.com/99Sy1yGh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MXkLWFsh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/5sluGMVh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FTTeWmgh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SuwHLjWh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/eCAQRkAh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lWbeX8Rh.jpg

[Rob T]

Hindsight: Interested in the coolant temps you quoted. 125 - 135 seems like an odd number to me. Is that +ambient? Or something else? I typically saw 190-195F when it was around 100F and I was driving probably 6/10. I had way too much oil cooling and could only get the oil to about 210. I am headed to the track on the 6th, now with a single oil cooler, so will be interested to see what happens.

[Hindsight]

Hindsight: Interested in the coolant temps you quoted. 125 - 135 seems like an odd number to me. Is that +ambient? Or something else? I typically saw 190-195F when it was around 100F and I was driving probably 6/10. I had way too much oil cooling and could only get the oil to about 210. I am headed to the track on the 6th, now with a single oil cooler, so will be interested to see what happens.

Sorry Rob, brain-fade. Was out in the sun too long yesterday! Coolant temps hit 235, not 135. My oil temps hit 250. Oil and coolant temps probably would have gone even higher had I not backed out of it each time it got up there. If you watch the video, you can see the needle on the coolant temp gauge getting near the top. I was monitoring the actual number on the access port.

I really need to add ducting for the radiator. I think that will control both the oil temps and the coolant temps. I've just dreaded the ducting project because it's not straight forward on the 818. There are many obstructions in front of the radiator. It's especially annoying the way the portion of the bumper that supports the headlights juts inward into the radiator area. I think I'm going to actually cut that down quite a lot and reinforce it with some aluminum to make up for the loss of material. Also need to seal off the area to the headlights there where the little support bracket is. If I'm going to take the time to add ducting, it's going to be air tight.

Wayne told me yesterday that he added a huge radiator to the 818R test mule. Said it was bigger in width and height; apparently he had cooling issues at VIR. I'm hoping I don't have to go that far. He's also running a LOT more power than I am.

[Mitch Wright]

Ducting the air through the radiator makes a big difference.

[Rob T]

Chad did a great job ducting in the front. The AWIC radiator is mounted in front of the main radiator. I have always seen ambient +10F on the air after AWIC. Again, driving about 6/10. The radiator has two fans. One is controlled by a thermostat. The other has a switch so I can run it in the pits, etc. The front of the AWIC radiator got hit a few times during Chad's development days and some of the fins were bent. Later, Chad added some expanded metal at the front of the car. In addition, I installed some 1/2" thick nomex honeycomb to protect the radiators. It does not appear to hurt the cooling any and it protects them from rocks and tire pieces. At 6/10's, I was seeing 195F max with an air temp of 105F, running a 280HP tune. Again, I had massive oil cooling, which helped, I am sure. On the 6th, I have a 320hp tune, the same AWIC and engine cooling set up, but only the oil cooler in the back, which has fans AND is ducted to the scoops in front of the rear wheels.

[Hindsight]

Good info, thanks Rob!

[Frank818]

This is what I'm at now, with driver weight in the car:
https://i.imgur.com/zCbaAwHh.jpg


Interesting, I'm just 130lbs more than yours with driver in my car.
What have you done to the car to be so heavy for an H4?

[Hindsight]

I don't know Frank! The only guesses I have:
1. Other people are using scales that are a bit more optimistic?
2. AWIC? But I know a lot of others are running them
3. 18" wheels and tires in the back?

Aside from that, the rest of the car is built VERY light. Super dieted wiring harness. Doesn't make sense to me.

[Frank818]

OMG, I'm speechless. :(
Some guys run under 1800 (see the thread "Post your weight"), there is no way rear 18" and AWIC can make that up. Maybe they add 150lbs to the max.
Well as long as the car runs great, that's more important.

[phil1734]

I think a lot of the weights are done with relatively incomplete cars. I'd bet most are the bare minimum to be registered in the owners state and they only gain weight from there as better seats, tires, awics, surge tanks, oil coolers, splash panels, aero bits, interior luxuries, etc. are added, but the weights never updated.

[Sgt.Gator]

The 1,800 lb cars are all Rs except one. The one S that's 1,800 lbs, Phil1734, is naturally aspirated. Removing the Turbo, AWIC Intercooler, AWIC Radiator, AWIC coolant is a lot of weight. Add on smaller brakes, smaller tires/wheels because of not having to handle massive power and the car gets a lot lighter.