MRG MotorSports 818S Build

[Bob_n_Cincy]

get rid of it all together, edge the fiberglass with white rubber edge, I found some with glue on the inside, no big thick ring, maximum opening, finished edge


The thing that bugs me the most is that none of the frames FFR provides match the contours of the areas they fit into. The corner radii are different and not concentric.

Wow,
You guys are picky.
Michael keeps reminding me it is a race car. Function is more important than looks.
Most importantly, the weather is warming up. We just want to get it on the road or track.

One of the life lessons for Michael on this project.
If you try and make every detail perfect on a project this size. It will never get done.

Blue, Black , or Silver?
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

Bob, run the numbers, offhand I would guess you could get an additional 10% opening by cutting the hole larger and edging it with no ring... with that rear radiator you need to make it as easy as possible for the air to flow

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, run the numbers, offhand I would guess you could get an additional 10% opening by cutting the hole larger and edging it with no ring... with that rear radiator you need to make it as easy as possible for the air to flow
I'm going the double trapezoid route. Should be no problem with air flow.
I don't need any vents in my second car.

Today we are going to go for our side scoop alternative. Hoping it works out.

Bob
41577

[Mechie3]

I'd go black on the trim.

[Mechie3]

One of the life lessons for Michael on this project.
If you try and make every detail perfect on a project this size. It will never get done.


Bob, I think maybe my comment didn't come across right. I meant it bugs me that the parts weren't designed/manufactured like they should have been. The radius on the trunk is 3.25" while the radius on the trim ring was something like 2.75" or something. Considering they touted how everything was designed in CAD they should have been able to make matching parts...well, match. They even made one or two parts that were supposed to be symmetric (like the hump sheet metal) but they used different corner radii on the driver vs passenger side. It's just the small details that all add up. There's nothing we can do about it unless you make your own rings or go with edging.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, I think maybe my comment didn't come across right. I meant it bugs me that the parts weren't designed/manufactured like they should have been. The radius on the trunk is 3.25" while the radius on the trim ring was something like 2.75" or something. Considering they touted how everything was designed in CAD they should have been able to make matching parts...well, match. They even made one or two parts that were supposed to be symmetric (like the hump sheet metal) but they used different corner radii on the driver vs passenger side. It's just the small details that all add up. There's nothing we can do about it unless you make your own rings or go with edging.

Hi Craig and Dan,
I well know and agree with your comments above.

I was disrespectful in my response in post 502 above.
Sorry for that.
Bob

[Mechie3]

Nah, we're too picky sometimes. :)

[RM1SepEx]

Agreed, ;) I think that the trim rings eat up too much real estate... The stock mesh is almost solid... And I really like the vinyl edge, it looks "finished"

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Agreed, ;) I think that the trim rings eat up too much real estate... The stock mesh is almost solid... And I really like the vinyl edge, it looks "finished"
Dan,
I'll do the top one with some rubber edging I have left over from my headlight install. Then compare to see which one looks/functions best.
With the plastic grill I'm using, the real estate is not an issue.
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

That grill is plastic?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That grill is plastic?

Yes Plastic (ABS)
Take a look at post 497 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12534-MRG-MotorSports-818S-Build&p=196871&viewfull=1#post196871 Above

link http://www.customcargrills.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Dia_Plastic_XXL_B6

The grill is 1/4" thick. I cut it the same size as my cutout.
So edge trim is not going to work very well, unless I start over.
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

I can't keep up... ;)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Got both rear radiator and front (HE)radiator installed.
Bob

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[matteo92065]

Nice work.

[DMC7492]

Looks good Bob, I'm a little confused. What were you running for a heat exchanger last summer? This one looks a little special in that it looks to be thicker than the common 1" HE.

[RM1SepEx]

not much clearance from the radiator to the transaxle...

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Looks good Bob, I'm a little confused. What were you running for a heat exchanger last summer? This one looks a little special in that it looks to be thicker than the common 1" HE.


not much clearance from the radiator to the transaxle...

Don
Last summer in go kart mode I had the stock air to air with a fan blowing through it. With no windshield and no body, I was getting decent air through it.

For my heat exchanger I an using a dual core Scirocco radiator.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251303341144?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Dan
I have 1" between the core and the transmission.
I went to the Group N transmission mount. I hope this reduces my transmission movement.
If not, I will cut off the back of the transmission.
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

Looked alot closer in the photo, an inch should be fine. I remember you had gross movement before, how do you like the group N mounts? I went with Cusco... BTW found a problem with my transaxle... coming back out again :(

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Looked alot closer in the photo, an inch should be fine. I remember you had gross movement before, how do you like the group N mounts? I went with Cusco... BTW found a problem with my transaxle... coming back out again :(
Have not driven it with the N mounts yet.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Michael and I are doing a NASA Autocross event this weekend.
Last year our NA Impreza was in "E" class.
What class with our 818S stock 2.5 turbo engine with 195 wheel HP?
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Michael and I spent the day at an autocross test and tune today.
I would estimate about 50 runs today.
We beat hard on the 818 today and she withstood the challenge.

A couple comment on systems.
Filled our self bleeding cooling system. Started engine until thermostats opened. Added a pint then shut the cap.
It suck in another 8 oz from the overflow bottle after cooling over night. Refilled this morning, Held that level all day. (7 hours of intermittent runs)
Dash temp meter was right at the mid rang point all day long. My radiator fans were under ECU control.

AWIC system was holding initial level. Drive car off trailer caused fill tank to drop 1". Refilled and it held that level al day.

After 4 or 5 hard run in a row we could not leave our finger on the hot side of the intercooler. I estimate 150f.
The cooled side was lukewarm. I'd estimate 100f. Ambient was 85f.

Our square brake system we though was working great. On Mike's last run of the day. He was coming into a very tight turn very hot. 50 mph, very hard braking and hard left turn resulted in rear lock up with an instant 270 degree spin.

What is the best way to clean virgin fiberglass of cone marks?

Since I was running with no engine covers or aluminum panels in the engine bay, I really can't come to any conclusions on my engine bay cooling solution.

The gopro wasn't ready for today. Just a couple of pictures.
Bob

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[Mechie3]

Is the self bleeding system the barb fitting added to the coolant pipe? I can't remember where you had your overflow bottle, front or rear.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Today at autocross, 4 big guys(>6' >250 lbs) tested my WOOKIE seat configuration in my 818.
They all love it and said it was very comfortable.
One 16 year old. 5'8" 130lbs tried it. He couldn't see over the steering wheel.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Is the self bleeding system the barb fitting added to the coolant pipe? I can't remember where you had your overflow bottle, front or rear.

Hi Craig,
Don't use Wayne's mode with my system.
My whole engine cooling system is in the rear.

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Tank on left is for the AWIC filler tank.
Tank on right is engine overflow bottle.

Today was first real test of your AWIC system. All works great.

By the way, I went with a BMW AWIC pump for my AWIC.

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Bob

[Tamra]

Bob, are you considering adding pre and post intercooler temp sensors? From our autocrosses, our post intercooler temp was hitting 100 during full boost, but dropping back to the 70's immediately post run. If yours is sitting at 100 post run, it might be getting pretty hot mid run. Are you data logging at all to watch for any knock correction? Also, we were spraying the intercooler heavily with water, we had ducting, and we were leaving the car idling to keep the fans running and the AWIC cycling.

We are getting the rest of our speed density tune on Tuesday (sensors installed now), and the tuner will pull timing in relation to the post IC temps in case things heat up too much.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, are you considering adding pre and post intercooler temp sensors? From our autocrosses, our post intercooler temp was hitting 100 during full boost, but dropping back to the 70's immediately post run. If yours is sitting at 100 post run, it might be getting pretty hot mid run. Are you data logging at all to watch for any knock correction? Also, we were spraying the intercooler heavily with water, we had ducting, and we were leaving the car idling to keep the fans running and the AWIC cycling.

We are getting the rest of our speed density tune on Tuesday (sensors installed now), and the tuner will pull timing in relation to the post IC temps in case things heat up too much.

Hi Tamra,
I know how important data logging is. Not installed yet.
We beat the 818 this weekend. Over 60 runs really pushing as hard as we could.
The metal neck going into the throttle body was showing no heat by my calibrated finger test.
I do not have any fans on my awic heat exchanger.
We were typically shutting of the car during our quick driver exchanges.

Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

With all the talk of "Turning Radius" Here is a quick video that shows the radius.
The 818 was slow starting because the motor got rotated backwards during the spin. Didn't get the clutch in fast enough.
Bob


https://youtu.be/yHojWKEQ89Q

[Bob_n_Cincy]

At this past weekends autocross we rented a uhaul trailer. Here is a picture of the ramps needed.
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We also loaded it backwards as the front bumper would hit the tire stop on the trailer.
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Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This picture is also a good view of the tire width.
The front are 205's and the rears are 225's
Both at -2.5* camber
Bob
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[Tamra]

[QUOTE=Bob_n_Cincy;198200]At this past weekends autocross we rented a uhaul trailer. Here is a picture of the ramps needed.
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That's approaching comical. But yeah, the uhaul trailers were not designed with race cars in mind...

[Bob_n_Cincy]

A couple of small thing got done this weekend between college graduation and daughter moving.

Got the hood mounted and side vents cut. Still need to trim the returns on the hood.

41982

41983

41984

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Going to work on my doors this week. Who did a tutorial on doors so far?
Bob

[07FIREBLADE]

I see one in your future.

[Mechie3]

Wayne did a pictorial version.

[RM1SepEx]

Going to work on my doors this week. Who did a tutorial on doors so far?
Bob

I did one on my thread as well and mine doesn't cut more than a slot out of the rear of the door.

[Tamra]

Your front end turned out fantastic!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Your front end turned out fantastic!
Thanks Tamra,
Still need to trim the lip edges on the hood. I will also add some bump stops to raise the front corners of the hood to match the bumper.
Your body panels are fitting up nicely.
I have my side sails back about 1/2" to avoid cutting at roll bar.
I don't know how this will affect my doors.
I also will have to do something to make the sail-fender interface look better.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Heading out to the Wilmington airport pad this weekend.
Saturday test and tune, probably 60-80 runs between Michael and I.
Sunday point event, 12 to 16 runs between us.
Another weekend of beating the *** out of this car to see if we can break anything.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42141&d=1432346161

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42142&d=1432346164

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Today we had a beautiful day for about 30 autocross runs.
We let a couple of very good drivers take the 818 for a spin (literally).
They recommend some bigger back tires and some better alignment.
Both I knew we needed.

The car was only backwards on the coarse a dozen times.

Here is one of Michaels clean runs.
Turn up the volume and you can hear the tires working.
Bob


http://youtu.be/j7N_-mgzewA

[Tamra]

That course looked like a lot of fun! Glad to hear it held up to the hard driving again.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Couple of pictures from yesterdays autocross.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42164&d=1432610623

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42165&d=1432610626

Stock 818s springs. Right now we are not running a front sway bar. Maybe we need one.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Here is a typical spin run. Probably had a dozen of these this past weekend.
Bob


http://youtu.be/vjj8IcT11FQ

[DMC7492]

Hi Bob good to see the body on and running on the track. How did the cooling systerm work with the body on? Are the radiator fans still controlled by the ECU and can you record the data with romraider on a auto cross run? I am interested to know if the fans are running as you are cranking it up in the course. This would show if there is a draft through the radiators at speed.
Keep up the great work!!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Bob good to see the body on and running on the track. How did the cooling systerm work with the body on? Are the radiator fans still controlled by the ECU and can you record the data with romraider on a auto cross run? I am interested to know if the fans are running as you are cranking it up in the course. This would show if there is a draft through the radiators at speed.
Keep up the great work!!
Hi Don,
Our rear mounted radiator fans are controlled by the ECU (2 speeds)
They do kick on sometimes in low speed but never seem to come on for more than a minute.
I have not done any data logging yet. Shame on me.
My testing is still suspect as I don't have belly pan or wheel wells installed yet in the engine compartment.
I was planning on having the complete engine cover on this weekend but my radiator supports are interfering with the rear hatch hinges.
I also have no windshield and no block off sheet metal in my humps. All these things will effect cooling.

Bob

[Tamra]

We have the R package suspension. We put the 500lb springs on the front and it feels good - we may not need a sway bar. We have not tested the car as much as you though. Our car is also not oversteering (other than on throttle), and actually has a slight understeer bias at the limit, off throttle. We also had 245 Hoosiers on though...

With the 300lb springs in the rear, we are hitting our bump stops some, so I imagine that you are too. We will likely need to go to a stiffer spring in the rear (which might mean we'll need stiffer springs in the front too to keep the current handling). If you are hitting your bump stops mid corner, it could definitely break the tires loose and cause a spin. Basically, you'll go from your current spring rate (275# rear), to infinite spring rate, which would cause snap oversteer mid sweeper.

I think, with the 818, that increasing the spring rate until you're not hitting the bump stops would be the first step, followed by either a sway bar for further fine tuning or playing with shocks/springs options more. The good/bad about running e-mod, is that your options for suspension changes are wide open. Then, you get to add aero for further confusion :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

We have the R package suspension. We put the 500lb springs on the front and it feels good - we may not need a sway bar. We have not tested the car as much as you though. Our car is also not oversteering (other than on throttle), and actually has a slight understeer bias at the limit, off throttle. We also had 245 Hoosiers on though...

With the 300lb springs in the rear, we are hitting our bump stops some, so I imagine that you are too. We will likely need to go to a stiffer spring in the rear (which might mean we'll need stiffer springs in the front too to keep the current handling). If you are hitting your bump stops mid corner, it could definitely break the tires loose and cause a spin. Basically, you'll go from your current spring rate (275# rear), to infinite spring rate, which would cause snap oversteer mid sweeper.

I think, with the 818, that increasing the spring rate until you're not hitting the bump stops would be the first step, followed by either a sway bar for further fine tuning or playing with shocks/springs options more. The good/bad about running e-mod, is that your options for suspension changes are wide open. Then, you get to add aero for further confusion :)


Hi Tamra,
Thanks for your insights.
All of our testing so far has mostly to prove reliability. Which has been good.
We have had to tow or nurse our Impreza home from an autocross/rallycross a couple of times.

We have not looked an suspension yet, mostly because we are not sure what were doing.
On our gstreet Impreza we were able to go from understeer to neutral with a bigger rear sway bar and higher rear tire pressures.

We are running four old 205 federals right now. I suspect we are only at 0.75G when the back end breaks loose.
We are in a learning how to drive a loose car with power. Michael with 40 year younger reflexes is killing me.

One note. The course Sunday was pretty fast. There were about 4 places we were hitting rev limiter in second gear.

Keep any setup tips coming,
Bob

[Tamra]

Hi Tamra,
We have not looked an suspension yet, mostly because we are not sure what were doing.
On our gstreet Impreza we were able to go from understeer to neutral with a bigger rear sway bar and higher rear tire pressures.


If you use that as your basic set up training, then you're on the right path. Big rear sway + higher pressures would make the rear looser (or reduce understeer). Basically, you need to do the opposite with the 818, since it is already tail happy (front sway bar, and either higher front pressures or lower rear pressures).

Then to add on top of that, since you are not in a stock class, you can play with spring rates (with your G-street Impreza you had to run stock springs, so it forced you to go to a sway bar). Without overcomplicating things, you can use springs the same way you would use a sway bar (very high level of course, as suspension set up can be super complicated) - stiffer rear springs will have a similar effect to adding a rear bar to your impreza (will cause more oversteer), or adding stiffer front springs will cause less oversteer/more understeer. You have to find a balance of course. Too soft of springs means you hit the bump stops as I said before, which can cause sudden and drastic loss of grip. That could potentially be your main issue right now.

Of course you can WAY overcomplicate things when you start "fine tuning".... but for a basic start, that's how it will work. People who are really into suspension setup will bring up at least 20 other factors you should consider, I'm sure. IMO, start with the basics.



We are running four old 205 federals right now. I suspect we are only at 0.75G when the back end breaks loose.
We are in a learning how to drive a loose car with power.


TINY tires! Well, they will let you figure out the balance of the car well, because they won't mask any mistakes!!! If/when you go to hoosiers, they will hold a lot more G's and will compress your suspension more (basically, if you aren't hitting the bump stops now, you will be!). Also, if you are running a square setup, the car's balance will change quite a bit if you go staggered.

[Tamra]

We will be in Toledo, OH for the SCCA Pro Solo at the end of June (with the S2k, not the 818). Are you guys attending? We'll also be in Wilmington at the beginning of August for another Pro. It would be fun to meet you!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

We will be in Toledo, OH for the SCCA Pro Solo at the end of June (with the S2k, not the 818). Are you guys attending? We'll also be in Wilmington at the beginning of August for another Pro. It would be fun to meet you!

I don't know if we will be in Toledo, but I suspect Craig will be there.
This past weekend for us was the Wilmington Pad you will be on in August.
Bob

[Tamra]

I just asked Andrew his opinion, and the only thing he'd add is that when you have open suspension, you shouldn't ever tune the car's balance by tire pressure. Set pressures to make the tires happy, camber for the same.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

After this past weekend of autocross spins, It's time to look for some bigger shoes.
We were running some 205/45-16 on 16x6.6 48et rims
A friend let us barrow a set of 255/40-17 on 17x9 35et rims.
Here is the difference in size.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42277&d=1432858581

rear view

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42276&d=1432858529

The side view show it very centered in the wheel well at4.5" street ride height.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42278&d=1432858811

Michael (Bigger is always better) says lets try them on the front.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42279&d=1432859022

They actually did fit except for just touching the firewall at full lock. I suspect the will hit the fender a full turn and full compression.

I took a lot of pictures and notes. If anybody has a questions, let me know.
Bob

[Mechie3]

I don't know if we will be in Toledo, but I suspect Craig will be there.
This past weekend for us was the Wilmington Pad you will be on in August.
Bob

I won't be there this year. I did win R1 in Toledo in 2013 in a borrowed F500 though after machining tons of custom parts for it. lol. I'm still sticking to only local events still until the baby is older.

I've heard that the federals aren't the stickiest of tires, which certainly isn't helping. Those 255's look like Star Specs. On my F500 the handling is very very different on year old tires vs fresh stickers or even just current season's tires.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I won't be there this year. I did win R1 in Toledo in 2013 in a borrowed F500 though after machining tons of custom parts for it. lol. I'm still sticking to only local events still until the baby is older.

I've heard that the federals aren't the stickiest of tires, which certainly isn't helping. Those 255's look like Star Specs. On my F500 the handling is very very different on year old tires vs fresh stickers or even just current season's tires.

We used the federals last summer with success. Did not store them in the warm over the winter.
Now that we have all the engine system sorted out, it's time to look at the suspension.

Those tires are Hankook ventus R-s3 off of a friends FRS.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Back to my real job that pays for my 818 hobby.
Black or Blue?

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[07FIREBLADE]

Black, I wonder what it would be like to ride an electric bike. Maybe someday if my liter doesn't kill me first.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Here are a couple of high resolution straight on tire shoots with measurements someone might want to use for reference.

http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t559/bobgru/P1050402_zpsp7ncqojg.jpg

http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t559/bobgru/P1050408_zps3sg0ymw7.jpg

[Mitch Wright]

Good looking bikes. I think a buddy of mine Shane Turin has raced one of your bikes at Laguna a few years ago.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Good looking bikes. I think a buddy of mine Shane Tureen has raced one of your bikes at Laguna a few years ago.
Hi Mitch,
We had 7-8 riders race for us. I don't remember a Shane. There was Shane Turpin that rode a competitors bike.
Bob

[Tamra]

Andrew used to work at Brammo. Electric motorcycles are so cool! I enjoyed riding with him on the Empulse. The sound of revving the electric motor is something I'll never forget, and the looks we would get from Harley riders were priceless!

[Mitch Wright]

Shane Turpin worked for the Yamaha Champions Riding School while I was at Miller Motorsports Park. He has said how impressed is has beenwith the performance of the electric bikes he has ridden

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Andrew used to work at Brammo. Electric motorcycles are so cool! I enjoyed riding with him on the Empulse. The sound of revving the electric motor is something I'll never forget, and the looks we would get from Harley riders were priceless!

Tamra, Is there anything you don't ride or drive.
From one pony to 500 ponies.
Bob

[Frank818]

Back to my real job that pays for my 818 hobby.
Black or Blue?

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Blue. You can ship it to me right now. :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Subarugears is making a shorten tail housing fro our MT5 transmission.
This will give you an extra 4 or 5 inches behind the transmission.
Pricing has not been announced yet.

To late fore me as my side shifter is working great.



https://youtu.be/bYi_lvrWQCQ

Bob

[Mechie3]

That's not specific for the 818 right, but for Vanagon conversions? They run the trans backwards and use a solid shift linkage. For our application they machined off the mounting points for the cables/pivots/etc. Very cool though. I can't compete with 5 axis.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That's not specific for the 818 right, but for Vanagon conversions? They run the trans backwards and use a solid shift linkage. For our application they machined off the mounting points for the cables/pivots/etc. Very cool though. I can't compete with 5 axis.

This is not specific for an 818.
Looks like they added some feet on the side for mounting.
You can cut the shaft down to your desired length.

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[Bob_n_Cincy]

Mike and I have been down in South Carolina for family vacation. So no progress on the car for the last 2 weeks.
We got home tonight to find some goodies that arrived.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42917&d=1434865100

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=42918&d=1434865102

[Hindsight]

Very nice. Where are you going to plumb the accusump?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Very nice. Where are you going to plumb the accusump?
The short answer: To one of the oil galley plugs. I just don't know which one.
Someone posted this picture.
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I am not going to use a oil filter sandwich plate as I plan on using a (air/coolant/oil) type oil cooler.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Question about doors and side sails.
Can you take off the side sails without removing the doors?
What is the distance you should the striker from the side of the car?
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

I don't think so...

I found that by putting the strikers as far towards the center of the car you could cut only the slot for it in the door. As it moves outward you lose clearance and you have to cut out an entire rectangle. It's basic geometry as your door goes past parallel there is increased space. The striker is thicker than a paint stick. Details are in my thread, Aloha and I figured it out last fall.

[Mechie3]

I currently have no body panels on except doors.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Thank Guys
Michael and I are having trouble deciding what is more important.
Working on performance improvements or just getting street legal.
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

Bob, I'm in the same dilemma, do I get it ready to debug thru autocross or just do it all and get it on the street... no right answer. I am also currently at the bare frame level

Awesome to work with the son tho isn't it! Ian and I are back to solar panel mounts this AM, then a seat mod for autocross on DD2 #2 for this weekend.

[Frank818]

I don't think so...

I found that by putting the strikers as far towards the center of the car you could cut only the slot for it in the door. As it moves outward you lose clearance and you have to cut out an entire rectangle. It's basic geometry as your door goes past parallel there is increased space. The striker is thicker than a paint stick. Details are in my thread, Aloha and I figured it out last fall.

I will check, but I believe you have pictures of that on your thread?
I think you pictured every single square inch of the body. :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This is a picture of my latest version of the side shifter.
The shifting rod now goes in where the neutral sensor was.
We have done 3 autocross and it's working great.
Bob
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43008&d=1435114146

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This is the plumbing on my AWIC filler tank. No bleeding necessary.
Fill it,
Run it for 1 minute,
fill to 1/2 way point.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43009&d=1435114457

[Bob_n_Cincy]

818 got new shoes.
I copied Chad on wheels and tire size. Thanks Chad

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43021

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Here is a picture of my Frunk area

43013

[Mechie3]

Is your bell crank 1/4" thick? No issues with oil leaking out the side?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Is your bell crank 1/4" thick? No issues with oil leaking out the side?
Hi Craig,
My bell crank is 1/4" alum.
The way the shift shaft is lubricated on the original transmission is by a ~3/8 hole on the inside of the transmission.
The center diff would sling oil into this hole. Since we don't have a center diff. I just greased the bearings.
The grease is picking up some dirt, so I should try and figure on some kind of boot.

The ECU does need the neutral switch for AVCS control. I added a clutch switch to perform this function.
Works perfect.

In the future, I may cut down the housing similar to what you did.
Bob

[Tamra]

Looking good! The wheels look very nice.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Looking good! The wheels look very nice.
Thanks Tamra,
I just hope we don't twist off the axles the way we have been launching with the little tires.
I was on vacation for 2 weeks, you should be ahead of me.
I'm going with the 350f/600r springs this weekend. I'll let you know how it works out.
What car are you taking to Toledo?
Bob

[Tamra]

Thanks Tamra,
I just hope we don't twist off the axles the way we have been launching with the little tires.
I was on vacation for 2 weeks, you should be ahead of me.
I'm going with the 350f/600r springs this weekend. I'll let you know how it works out.
What car are you taking to Toledo?
Bob

I'm driving an STR prep Miata in L3 (the same one I won the Devens Tour with in STRL). Andrew's driving an S2000 CR in AS.

I hope the springs work out! I'm not sure if we are much ahead of you. We had to take a week to work on the van (fix our new water pump that was leaking), and we've had 2 day autocrosses every weekend in June. I'm surprised we've made as much progress on the 818 as we have!

We are going to be running Hoosiers on our 818 for autocross, so I'm sure we'll be the bigger guinea pigs for axle testing. I imagine you'll be fine with street tires - just try to avoid getting wheel hop (spin the tires up or not at all - no middle ground).

Good luck at autocross this weekend!

[508wrx]

This is the plumbing on my AWIC filler tank. No bleeding necessary.
Fill it,
Run it for 1 minute,
fill to 1/2 way point.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43009&d=1435114457

What size did you tap the for the fitting on the intercooler? I like this idea.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

What size did you tap the for the fitting on the intercooler? I like this idea.
they are 1/8" NPT using this fitting.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#5346k15/=xrk0yh

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This week we spent a lot of time changing to rod end lateral links.
It was not a quick bolt in upgrade. Pretty difficult modification. It was difficult to drill out inner rod end holes.

Today we went to an autocross to try our new tires. This was a bad idea without test driving the car first.
Our big front tires (235/40-17) were rubbing the fenders on turn-in. We decide to call it a day and not risk damage.
This week we will be messing with front tire/suspension to eliminate this problem.

Below is a picture I took that shows my rear suspension geometry.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43126&d=1435547107

[Flamshackle]

This is a picture of my latest version of the side shifter.
The shifting rod now goes in where the neutral sensor was.
We have done 3 autocross and it's working great.
Bob
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=43008&d=1435114146

Have you got any more information or pics of your side shift? I want to go this route also and would appreciate any tips.

Your leverage looks short on the twist shift motion. How does it feel?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Have you got any more information or pics of your side shift? I want to go this route also and would appreciate any tips. Your leverage looks short on the twist shift motion. How does it feel?

I don't have any more pictures at this time.
I did this video on my first design.
https://youtu.be/NLPjJnvYMAM
The big change was moving the rod entering the transmission.
My first design, I had trouble sealing the transmission.
I moved the neutral switch to an extra clutch switch.
The fell is great. I can feel it click into gear with my hand.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Yesterday, Michael and I work on our shocks.
We plan on using the 818 for street, autocross and track days.
We decided on the street ride height to eliminate tire rub..

Our design goals were:
1. race performance suspension with less body roll. (we copied Chad's spring Rates)
2. No lose of spring contact a full extension. (added tender springs to the rears)
3. Equal distance in the bump and rebound direction. (Extended top spring mount by 1")
4. Wanted bump stop to come into play before rubbing. ( added spacer to shock rod)

Below are some pictures.
Bob And Mike

43646

43647

43648

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Working on the doors today,
Does anyone know the size of the screws that mounts the latch mechanism to the door frame?
Thanks
Bob

[Tamra]

Working on the doors today,
Does anyone know the size of the screws that mounts the latch mechanism to the door frame?
Thanks
Bob

These ones?

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag408/wrx818/Build/A519C3CD-9B1D-4BD0-A1F7-2F686685871D_zpslddzlkmt.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/wrx818/media/Build/A519C3CD-9B1D-4BD0-A1F7-2F686685871D_zpslddzlkmt.jpg.html)


I like the idea of the tender springs in the rear! I don't care for your addition of a spacer with the bump stop. Hopefully with your stiffer spring rate, you won't hit the bump stop and it won't be an issue, but if you do, the sudden infinite spring rate from the spacer could cause severe handling issues at the limit. Be careful.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

These ones?
I like the idea of the tender springs in the rear! I don't care for your addition of a spacer with the bump stop. Hopefully with your stiffer spring rate, you won't hit the bump stop and it won't be an issue, but if you do, the sudden infinite spring rate from the spacer could cause severe handling issues at the limit. Be careful.

Thanks Tamra,
A note on the latch mechanism. I had to remove about an 1/8" from the latch mechanism to make it sit flush in the door frame.

I don't expect the spacer to come in to play with the harder springs.
The Bump stops and spacers will prevent me from killing my fenders. The bump stops do prevent me from going to infinite spring rate. See chart below. I believe from my testing the 70 34 54 000 0 is the curve that best matches our bump stops. It is pretty soft for the first inch of travel.
Bob

43681

[Bob_n_Cincy]

In the coil-over shock locking ring there is a set screw to lock it in place.
I am worried that this will bugger up the thread on the sleeve.
Does everyone tighten the set screw?
Does it hurt the threaded sleeve?
Bob

[C.Plavan]

In the coil-over shock locking ring there is a set screw to lock it in place.
I am worried that this will bugger up the thread on the sleeve.
Does everyone tighten the set screw?
Does it hurt the threaded sleeve?
Bob

You have to tighten down the set screw. Ask me how I know..... Mine worked their way out of where I set them- by a lot. Don't overly tighten it as it can strip. It will make a dimple on the sleeve, but won't bugger it up that bad.

Then buy this. It really helps when you need to mess with the coil-overs and you just can't hang on to the sleeve anymore to crank down with the coil over wrench. My sleeves started spinning when using the coil over wrench, these rubber strap wrenches solved the problem.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00006L9PO/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?qid=1438058498&sr=8-6&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70&keywords=rubber+strap+wrench

[Bob_n_Cincy]

First, Thanks Chad for the locking ring set screw tip.

My engineering mind is turning some gears.

I have a basic suspension set up question.
If your CG, RC, spring rates, and suspension point caused 2 degrees of body roll at 1.5 G.
2 Degrees of body roll is the outside of the car down an inch and the inside up an inch.
I would think best camber gain setting is.
Zero at base ride height.
-2 degrees at 1" of bump.
+2 degrees at 1" of rebound.
This would keep all four tires flat on the ground at during a corner.
Does this make sense?
Bob

[Tamra]

I'm not an engineer, but I would think the best thing you could do would be to get a tire probe and check temps, and then adjust the camber as required to get fairly even temps across the tires.

I would think 0 camber at base ride height would NOT be a good idea. We have -2 front and -3 rear (with different springs than you though, so yours could be different) and we got fairly even temps all the way across our Hoosiers after ~60 second autocross runs.

[RM1SepEx]

Read Carroll Smith's books and perhaps Herb Adams books on suspension design. Tamra is correct in that the true test is even tire heating however it also assume equal loading of the course and that is course design dependent. Different tire "like" different setups and Hoosier's in particular are very camber sensitive.

It takes a ton of development to get it just right and a road course and an autocross a very different "fast" setup

http://www.amazon.com/Chassis-Engineering-Building-Performance-Handling/dp/1557880557/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438204430&sr=8-1&keywords=herb+adams

http://www.amazon.com/Tune-Win-science-development-tuning/dp/0879380713/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1438204471&sr=8-3&keywords=carroll+smith

http://www.amazon.com/Prepare-Win-Bolts-Professional-Preparation/dp/0615547338/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1438204471&sr=8-2&keywords=carroll+smith

http://www.amazon.com/Engineer-Win-Carroll-Smith/dp/0615754090/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1438204471&sr=8-1&keywords=carroll+smith

Bob, when Ian (now 23 and right now in a face to face interview in Boston for his first BioMed Eng job) and I were autocrossing the kart we made it a problem solving exercise using the available ref materials. I suggest you do the same, your son seems very engaged! It really helped when we did the electric reverse trike and we just installed my 31 solar panels working together. Makes for an excellent bonding experience.

[Frank818]

You have to tighten down the set screw. Ask me how I know.....

With some blue loctite?

[C.Plavan]

With some blue loctite?

No loctite.... Just remember to tighten them down unlike me the first time.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

You have to tighten down the set screw. Ask me how I know..... Mine worked their way out of where I set them- by a lot. Don't overly tighten it as it can strip. It will make a dimple on the sleeve, but won't bugger it up that bad.



I set my corner weights tonight, then tighten the set screws, 2 were missing as I did not have them tighten before.
I stole 2 from my other car.
Here is a McMaster Carr part number.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#set-screws/=ya9eb4
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

took the car over to TIC today for an alignment.
Bob
44079

[Bob_n_Cincy]

What hatch angle is going to give me the most down force?

44110

[mikeb75]

Impressive! Makes a deck lip look like a piker.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Michael is working on the Accusump installation.
I circled in blue where he is going to hook up the -10 line to the Accusump.

44206

To get to that location, he is going to hack up the power steering/alternator bracket.

44207

Where and why are the best places to mount oil pressure and temperature sensors?

Bob

[Hindsight]

That seems to be a hotly debated question here. Some of the ports don't provide good flow across the sensor. I put my aftermarket pressure sensor in the factory spot and put my temp sensor where you are mounting your accusump.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That seems to be a hotly debated question here. Some of the ports don't provide good flow across the sensor. I put my aftermarket pressure sensor in the factory spot and put my temp sensor where you are mounting your accusump.
Thanks Hindsight

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Test fit my Accusump tonight.
I'm starting off with manual valve (left)which I will just leave open for now.
The pressure gauge (right) will get relocated to the dash.
Mechie3 AWIC bracket will get a 1" spacer where it mounts to the intercooler.

On a side note.
I stopped buy the Ohio State trouper inspection station and had a long talk with the inspecting officer.
I am scheduled for September 11 unless something opens up on his schedule.
Bob

EDIT: I ended up switching to a 2 qt accusump.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44249&d=1438924762

[Tamra]

That is a lot of stuff in one engine bay, but it looks great.

Although the OCD in me wants to paint your accusump to match the rest of the blue.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Although the OCD in me wants to paint your accusump to match the rest of the blue.

"BECAUSE RACECAR" beats OCD everyday.
But paying attention to the details is what wins races.

Bad lighting in the picture above. This is the real color of the Accusump.
44250
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Today Michael and I finished our Accusump (3 quart) install.

Milestone on the build: Track Day Ready

About 2 years ago we lost a rod bearing at an autocross event.
That led to our decision to add the Accusump.

First Accusump test we set the pre-charge in the tank to 10 psi (air side)
During start up this prevents any oil from going into the tank until the engine has 10 PSI.
The 10psi is used to make sure all oil push out.

Then started the cold engine. The idle was about 1500. The tank pressure rose to 85 psi.
This matches the pressure regulator in the Subaru pump.

Then we turned of the engine off to watch the pressure fall.
About 5 seconds from 80 to 60 and then 10 seconds nore from 60 to 40. the down very slowly from there.

This was a good sign, indicating that we had at least 15 second of good pressure (40 psi) on a cold engine.
Now we need to repeat this test on a hot engine.

Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Had a little surprise today.
Decided to change my oil pan to an STI type.
I thought I had a virgin motor. 90k previous and 100 autocross runs by Michael and I.
Found 4 spring keepers in the bottom of the oil pan.
I figure that some non-professional mechanic has done something in this motor.
What do you think the were doing to the engine?
Bob

[Quiny]

I would pull the valve covers, cams and buckets to make sure you don't have a single keeper holding in some of your valves. They do make a small bolt on valve spring compressor that works really well on those recessed valve springs. The other thought is someone lost them trying to reinstall and got new ones but I cant imagine doing valve guide seals with the engine in the car. Sometime ignorance is bliss, if you didn't decide to change the pan you wouldn't be worried about this right now.

[metalmaker12]

Test fit my Accusump tonight.
I'm starting off with manual valve (left)which I will just leave open for now.
The pressure gauge (right) will get relocated to the dash.
Mechie3 AWIC bracket will get a 1" spacer where it mounts to the intercooler.

On a side note.

I stopped buy the Ohio State trouper inspection station and had a long talk with the inspecting officer.
I am scheduled for September 11 unless something opens up on his schedule.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44249&d=1438924762


There is a lot of heat soak potential there guys, wrap those lines and the accupump etc. You prob figured this already, and I like the effort your putting forward. I wrapped everything and have been testing the awic under heavy boost and have not got past 117 no matter what I did. I have the awic lines on separate sides now, which is much more effective because the coolant line on the pass gets very hot and affects the awic lines. I wrapped them also to cut down on this and put inlet awic on separate sides. It was 85-90 ambient. Looking good guys

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I would pull the valve covers, cams and buckets to make sure you don't have a single keeper holding in some of your valves. They do make a small bolt on valve spring compressor that works really well on those recessed valve springs. The other thought is someone lost them trying to reinstall and got new ones but I cant imagine doing valve guide seals with the engine in the car. Sometime ignorance is bliss, if you didn't decide to change the pan you wouldn't be worried about this right now.
Thanks Quiny, I've never seen or heard of keepers falling out in all my years. Now you have me a little worried.
Maybe they were doing valve guide seals and they fell into the oil return holes.


There is a lot of heat soak potential there guys, wrap those lines and the accupump etc. You prob figured this already, and I like the effort your putting forward. I wrapped everything and have been testing the awic under heavy boost and have not got past 117 no matter what I did. I have the awic lines on separate sides now, which is much more effective because the coolant line on the pass gets very hot and affects the awic lines. I wrapped them also to cut down on this and put inlet awic on separate sides. It was 85-90 ambient. Looking good guys
Hi Metal
My plan to is to use my 2 12" fans to blow heat out of the engine bay. It worked great for autocrossing. I'll let you know soon how it work driving it hard on the road.
Bob
44296

[Frank818]

My plan to is to use my 2 12" fans to blow heat out of the engine bay. It work great for autocrossing. I'll let you know soon how it work driving it hard on the road.
Bob
44296

That should work well, constant flow out of the engine bay. I have something similar in mind, but for the top of the engine bay (or inside the humps, using Craig's louvers).

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Had a little surprise today.
Decided to change my oil pan to an STI type.
I thought I had a virgin motor. 90k previous and 100 autocross runs by Michael and I.
Found 4 spring keepers in the bottom of the oil pan.
I figure that some non-professional mechanic has done something in this motor.
What do you think the were doing to the engine?
Bob

Well things have changed on the mystery valve spring keepers in the oil pan.
They are not keepers.
44310

After closer inspection I realized the were not keepers.
I ran them over to TIC to find out it was one turbo bearing.

Tony said my turbo was probably toast.
It is possible these are from a previous turbo.
When I got home I check the shaft play on the hot side.. There was some play, but didn't feel bad to my inexperienced fingers.
Has anybody seen this before?

While I was there I picked up a killer bee oil pick up.
44311

This is the bottom of my engine.
44312
Do you see anything out of the ordinary for a 90k motor?
Bob

[STiPWRD]

I can confirm that is definitely one of the turbo journal bearings, but there are supposed to be 2 of them in the turbo. If you plan on keeping the stock turbo, I'd remove it from the car and take it apart, I've done it and it's not that bad. Otherwise you can keep running it until it fails and will likely not be repairable.

[Tamra]

I hope you figure it out and that no internal damage has been done! Would hate to see another blown 818 engine :(

[Bob_n_Cincy]

One step forward, ten steps back, this has been one of those challenging weeks.

First we decided to install an Accusump to prevent oil starvation in high G corners.
We went with the 3 quart high pressure version of the Accusump.
Bigger is always better, RIGHT? Subaru has high pressure oiling system, RIGHT?
WRONG, The Subaru does not have that much extra room in the oil pan.
At 85 PSI 3 qts in accusump and 5 qts in engine, all is good.
At 35 PSI 2 qts in accusump and 6 qts in engine, oil is up to windage tray. Acceptable but not recommend.
At 20 PSI 1 qts in accusump and 7 qts in engine, oil is into the block. Not acceptable.
Smaller Accusump on order.

Next
Many recommendations to use a STI style and a Killer Bee pickup.
So I tried that.
Turns out the STI pan is more than a quart smaller than my 2004 forester XT pan. (also know as a 2.0 Liter pan)
So I'm sticking with my original pan.
Now my KB pick up doesn't fit in my pan. Back to my original pickup.

44351

NextFound some parts of a turbo bearing in the oil pan.
Removed up pipe and the exhaust.
Remove the turbo from the car. Its was very tight but is possible to get the turbo out with the shock tower support bar in place.
The shaft definitely has more play than it did last year when we clocked the turbo.
There was a twist / kink in the turbo oil feed line which we think cause our problem.
Repair parts on order.

Next
While remove the turbo some nuts fell on the floor.
We pick them up and were on short. Looked for at least a half hour.
The only place it could be is in the header.
6 bolts later the header was off and it had a rattle, WOO HOO

Bob

Side note may interest some. The full mark on the STI pan dip stick is an inch higher than the 2.0 liter pan.

[Tamra]

whoo hoo that sounds like good news for the most part!

There are many reasons to use the STI pan and Killer B pickup, despite the fact that it is smaller. I would still recommend you use them.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

whoo hoo that sounds like good news for the most part!

There are many reasons to use the STI pan and Killer B pickup, despite the fact that it is smaller. I would still recommend you use them.

Thanks Tamra,
The full mark in the STI pan is about an inch from the top.
The full mark in the 2.0L pan is about 2 inch from the top.

The main advantage I see to the STI pan is the narrow bottom. This is a big advantage if there is only a 1 quart left in the pan.
With the 2.0L pan I can run an extra quart of oil. I that equates it to the STI pan as in the same situation I would have 2 quarts left in the 2.0L pan.
The larger pan is more compatible with Accusump.

I have a day or two before the pan goes back on. If I get a good reason for switching, I will.

With either selection, I will be adding an level switch / temperature sensor about 2" above the pickup.

Bob

[Tamra]

The main reason for switching would be the pickup. The OEM pickup is known for cracking, resulting in complete oil pressure loss and engine explosion. The Killer B pickup is the best replacement. The STI plan helps prevent sloshing side to side as well but like you said, just increasing the volume in your other pan would help. I guess the other option would be something like a Killer B or Moroso pan, but I think I ready on the forum somewhere that they hang below the 818 frame (and are $$).

I haven't researched accusumps enough to know how they play into things. Have you contacted the company and asked what they recommend?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

The main reason for switching would be the pickup. The OEM pickup is known for cracking, resulting in complete oil pressure loss and engine explosion. The Killer B pickup is the best replacement. The STI plan helps prevent sloshing side to side as well but like you said, just increasing the volume in your other pan would help. I guess the other option would be something like a Killer B or Moroso pan, but I think I ready on the forum somewhere that they hang below the 818 frame (and are $$).

I haven't researched accusumps enough to know how they play into things. Have you contacted the company and asked what they recommend?

Yes, I had a long conversation with Bob at Canton Racing. He is very knowledgeable and the Acusump expert.
I have the 22" tank (3qrt HP).
He recommended the 12 or 16" tank for my size engine.
He also recommended a pressure switch of 37psi opens the dump valve if pressure drops below this point.
The valve will let the tank fill anytime.
He also recommended a switch to turn off the Accusump during non spirited driving.

I agree with everything he is saying, but I want better. So still working on my oiling strategy.
Bob

PS: I might mod my 2.0 pan so the KB pickup will fit.

[matteo92065]

This oil pan/Accusump discussion is great. It's one of the next steps for me. Please continue with the details.
I have the 16" tank, 2 quart, ready to install. I have just read the last 5-6 posts here and watched a video about the Accusump... What about the precharging pressure of the accusump? According to the video, you can put a higher air pressure into your 3 quart tank and it would accept less oil, but with more pressure (a good thing). I would think that this would be a good way of controlling how much oil is stored.
Where are you going to pick up your oil for the accusump? Do you have a reason for choosing one location over the others?

Why not have a valve that is always open as long as the key is on? Wouldn't pre-oiling the engine on start up be good?
Why the 37psi switch? W/O the pressure switch, if it gets to 38, the accusump will be feeding. If it goes to 36 the accusump will be feeding. If accusump runs out before the high g-turn ends, then you probably need a dry sump.
And why turn the accusump off? When the car is being driven non-spirited oil will move around in the system and keep it all the same temperature, age, and condition.

If you don't want to type all these answers out, I understand. I'm just thinking about all this stuff.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This oil pan/Accusump discussion is great. It's one of the next steps for me. Please continue with the details.
I have the 16" tank, 2 quart, ready to install. I have just read the last 5-6 posts here and watched a video about the Accusump... What about the precharging pressure of the accusump? According to the video, you can put a higher air pressure into your 3 quart tank and it would accept less oil, but with more pressure (a good thing). I would think that this would be a good way of controlling how much oil is stored.
Where are you going to pick up your oil for the accusump? Do you have a reason for choosing one location over the others?

Why not have a valve that is always open as long as the key is on? Wouldn't pre-oiling the engine on start up be good?
Why the 37psi switch? W/O the pressure switch, if it gets to 38, the accusump will be feeding. If it goes to 36 the accusump will be feeding. If accusump runs out before the high g-turn ends, then you probably need a dry sump.
And why turn the accusump off? When the car is being driven non-spirited oil will move around in the system and keep it all the same temperature, age, and condition.

If you don't want to type all these answers out, I understand. I'm just thinking about all this stuff.

He recommended 10psi pre-charge. Which means the accusunp will not accept oil until the engine is greater than 10 psi.
If you set the precharge at 40psi and you were cruising at 30psi, there would be no oil in the tank to protect you.

I connected it to the oil galley plug of the front of the engine hidden behind the alternator bracket. It is close to the output of the pump.

There is a plethora of strategies with pro and cons for each. You have to decide which is best for you.

Right now I'm leaning toward a manual ball valve only with it always turned on.
Con, no pre-oiling
Pro, No forgetting to turn it on or off
Con, will over fill the pan at hot idling.
Pro, will protect bearings at any speed and pressure for about 5 seconds if no oil is coming from the pump.
Pro, Lowest cost most reliable system. Canton's electric valves are $200.

A second strategy I am considering is an oil level switch in the pan with an electric valve.


Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

The main reason for switching would be the pickup. The OEM pickup is known for cracking, resulting in complete oil pressure loss and engine explosion. The Killer B pickup is the best replacement. The STI plan helps prevent sloshing side to side as well but like you said, just increasing the volume in your other pan would help. I guess the other option would be something like a Killer B or Moroso pan, but I think I ready on the forum somewhere that they hang below the 818 frame (and are $$).

I haven't researched accusumps enough to know how they play into things. Have you contacted the company and asked what they recommend?

Hey Tamra,
My killer b pickup won't fit in my 2.0L pan without a lot of cutting.
My STI pan does hold enough oil.
I decided to go the whole killer b route. Pan, pick up, and tray.
Thanks for your recommendation.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Is doctor turbo in the house.

A few days ago we found a broken turbo bearing in our oil pan.
44382

My son Michael decided to tackle the turbo.
As he took the turbo apart, I had him lay out the parts as they came out.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=44383&d=1439442001

To our surprise and relief, the turbo still had both of it's bearing.
They must of had a previous failure in this engine.
Michael (Dr. TURBO) wants to replace it with a DOM 1.5? I told him to just rebuild it and put it back into the car.
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

I know a guy who as a sideline rebuilds Subaru Turbos, and does a a GREAT job. He upgrades the oem turbo to better than oem. If you want to contact him I will PM you his info. He has rebuilt two for me.
Example:

"I have 2 styles that I am building currently-the OE style replacement that has all upgraded and modified internals as listed below and I also do a Custom that includes all of the same upgraded and modified internals plus all of the additional things listed below.

Both the Custom and the OE style have upgraded and modified journal bearings that virtually eliminate the IHI oiling issues, upgraded and modified thrust plates, upgraded piston rings, assembled with teflon impregnated synthetic grease to insure that there is no dry startup, and complete turbine/shaft/compressor wheel assembly dual plane dynamic balancing. I have a graphite material that I put on the cast iron parts (exhaust housing and center bearing support housing) to help keep rust at bay.

The stock OE style uses a stock turbine/shaft assembly and a cast aluminum stock style compressor wheel and it's inspected carefully to make sure it's perfect or I use new if necessary. I make sure that the OE style is back to OE specs on both the compressor and exhaust turbine ends and ready to go.

The Custom also includes a new inconel turbine/shaft assembly and an aggressive extended tip custom billet compressor wheel that weighs about half of the stock cast wheel and is capable of 20+ psi. The entire assembly is then dual plane balanced to .00005 grams to make sure that there is no chance of shake. I do internal polished compressor backing plate and also internally polished compressor housing. I paint the compressor housing and also coolant pipes and drain pipe with heat resistant paint to help stave off corrosion and help it look nicer longer. I use a graphite coating on the CHRA housing and the exhaust housing to help with future rusting issues. "

Many folks on the LGT Forum have bought his rebuilt turbos, no complaints that I've seen yet.

My Rebuilt VF46:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pHst2LvMOecG63MHsO7Pqp7jlQY_PErWFiVJNBbR71U=w591-h500-no

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I know a guy who as a sideline rebuilds Subaru Turbos, and does a a GREAT job. He upgrades the oem turbo to better than oem. If you want to contact him I will PM you his info. He has rebuilt two for me.
Example:

"I have 2 styles that I am building currently-the OE style replacement that has all upgraded and modified internals as listed below and I also do a Custom that includes all of the same upgraded and modified internals plus all of the additional things listed below.

Both the Custom and the OE style have upgraded and modified journal bearings that virtually eliminate the IHI oiling issues, upgraded and modified thrust plates, upgraded piston rings, assembled with teflon impregnated synthetic grease to insure that there is no dry startup, and complete turbine/shaft/compressor wheel assembly dual plane dynamic balancing. I have a graphite material that I put on the cast iron parts (exhaust housing and center bearing support housing) to help keep rust at bay.

The stock OE style uses a stock turbine/shaft assembly and a cast aluminum stock style compressor wheel and it's inspected carefully to make sure it's perfect or I use new if necessary. I make sure that the OE style is back to OE specs on both the compressor and exhaust turbine ends and ready to go.

The Custom also includes a new inconel turbine/shaft assembly and an aggressive extended tip custom billet compressor wheel that weighs about half of the stock cast wheel and is capable of 20+ psi. The entire assembly is then dual plane balanced to .00005 grams to make sure that there is no chance of shake. I do internal polished compressor backing plate and also internally polished compressor housing. I paint the compressor housing and also coolant pipes and drain pipe with heat resistant paint to help stave off corrosion and help it look nicer longer. I use a graphite coating on the CHRA housing and the exhaust housing to help with future rusting issues. "

Many folks on the LGT Forum have bought his rebuilt turbos, no complaints that I've seen yet.

My Rebuilt VF46:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pHst2LvMOecG63MHsO7Pqp7jlQY_PErWFiVJNBbR71U=w591-h500-no

Thanks Gator,
My son Michael knew nothing about cars 2 years ago.
I knew nothing about Subaru's or turbo's 2 year ago.
Both of us learn by doing, so we will rebuild our turbo this time. Mike thinks he will out grow the 230 HP in this car by next summer. We will look you up then for a rebuilt turbo.

On another note, Mike wants to come up your way and do a rally school before heading off to college in the fall of 2016.
Bpb

[Tamra]

Thanks Gator,
My son Michael knew nothing about cars 2 years ago.
I knew nothing about Subaru's or turbo's 2 year ago.
Both of us learn by doing, so we will rebuild our turbo this time. Mike thinks he will out grow the 230 HP in this car by next summer. We will look you up then for a rebuilt turbo.

On another note, Mike wants to come up your way and do a rally school before heading off to college in the fall of 2016.
Bpb

Maybe we can meet up next summer and you guys can see what 350-400whp feels like while autocrossing an 818 :) You might change your mind!!

2 years ago I had never even done an oil change. Does that count? ;p

[STiPWRD]

Bob, before you rebuild the turbo, consider buying a rebuild kit. They are fairly cheap (~$40) on ebay and come with new bearings and seals. Also, I hope you paid attention to the clocking of the compressor wheel relative to the turbine shaft when you took it apart. The whole rotating assembly is usually balanced together. Tim Scott's Turbos in Falls Church VA rebalanced my turbo after I replaced the bearings - I'd highly recommend him as well.

[brian b 36]

hey gator i have stock turbo that needs seals how much does he charge thanks brian

[Sgt.Gator]

hey gator i have stock turbo that needs seals how much does he charge thanks brian

I sent you a PM.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Oil pan dilemma continues.

Today my wife and I took Michael to a college visit at Kettering University in Flint Michigan. (top of Mike's list)

On the way home we stopped to see dougkirkbride's build. It looks great, he has made most of the donor parts look like new. Any cut or trim he did with precision. Doug is much better paying attention to details thin we are.

Doug had a Killer B oil pan installed.
Using a straight edge the pan was 1/4" bellow the cockpit.
Using a straight edge from the bar in front of the engine to the bar with the engine mounts the killer b pan is 1" below.

I will not use this pan without some kind if skid plat to protect it.
So tomorrow Michael and I will measure the clearance on the STI pan and 2.0L pan to decide which one we will use.
Bob

[Tamra]

Pretty sure our STI pan is above the frame panels or about flush, but I'll double check tomorrow (unless you beat me to it). I remember we were pretty excited when our headers and pan fit well. I wouldn't want the oil pan to be the first point of contact over a speed bump or a rock...

[C.Plavan]

Oil pan dilemma continues.

Today my wife and I took Michael to a college visit at Kettering University in Flint Michigan. (top of Mike's list)

On the way home we stopped to see dougkirkbride's build. It looks great, he has made most of the donor parts look like new. Any cut or trim he did with precision. Doug is much better paying attention to details thin we are.

Doug had a Killer B oil pan installed.
Using a straight edge the pan was 1/4" bellow the cockpit.
Using a straight edge from the bar in front of the engine to the bar with the engine mounts the killer b pan is 1" below.

I will not use this pan without some kind if skid plat to protect it.
So tomorrow Michael and I will measure the clearance on the STI pan and 2.0L pan to decide which one we will use.
Bob

If you recall, I had the whole killer b setup before the dry sump. There was no way I would race with the killer b pan. Hoping curbs would of sucked. It sat way too low, especially on a R height car.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

If you recall, I had the whole killer b setup before the dry sump. There was no way I would race with the killer b pan. Hoping curbs would of sucked. It sat way too low, especially on a R height car.

Chad,
I totally agree. Running a 4" the car would drop to 3.5 with Michael and I in the car. We have scraped the bottom of the car a dozen times. Mostly getting it on and off trailers.

The 6 quart 2.0L pan is about 1/4" shorter than the 5 quart STI pan which is shorter than the KB pan.
Even though the STI pan works with EL headers and has a better funnel shape to the pick-up. I think the 6 quarts trumps the 5 quart STI pan. I also need the 6 quart pan for my accusump.

This will be my oil split. (now using a 2 QT 12" accusump)
At hot idle 20 PSI, 6.0 QT in the pan and 0.5 Qt. in the accusump
At mid range 40-50 PSI, 5.5 QT in the pan and 1.0 Qt. in the accusump.
At high range 85 PSI, 5.0 QT in the pan and 1.5 Qt. in the accusump.
I could not do this with limited free space in the STI pan.

So the 2.0L pan is my plan for now. I the future I may (design, build, race) a custom pan.
Bob

Status update: Michael rebuilt the turbo and it is back in the car. Oil pan is re-installed. My heat wrap job on my exhaust got soaked with oil during pan removal. Going to remove the wrap, then wash, and reinstall. So we should be back running Sunday.

[Tamra]

By running your 6qt 2.0 pan at 5 qts, are you not worried about your pickup sucking up air and oil starving the engine during high G corners? I would think running the STI pan a little overfull at idle would be better than running the 2.0 pan low when high revving and cornering. The little bit of reading I've done on the accusump makes it sound normal for the pan to be overfilled at idle - is it not?

I haven't done a ton of research yet, but we are considering getting one as well.

[Tamra]

Also, if you really want to use your 2.0 pan, it looks like Killer B sells a pickup for it: http://www.killerbmotorsport.net/oiling-products/oil-pickups/ultimate-oil-pickup-ej20-for-oem-flat-bottom-oil-pan.html

[Bob_n_Cincy]

By running your 6qt 2.0 pan at 5 qts, are you not worried about your pickup sucking up air and oil starving the engine during high G corners? I would think running the STI pan a little overfull at idle would be better than running the 2.0 pan low when high revving and cornering. The little bit of reading I've done on the accusump makes it sound normal for the pan to be overfilled at idle - is it not?

I haven't done a ton of research yet, but we are considering getting one as well.


Also, if you really want to use your 2.0 pan, it looks like Killer B sells a pickup for it: http://www.killerbmotorsport.net/oiling-products/oil-pickups/ultimate-oil-pickup-ej20-for-oem-flat-bottom-oil-pan.html

Hi Tamra,
The 2.0L pan holds 6qts, but the designed level is 5 qts with 1.5" of free space in the top.
The STI pan holds 5qts, with the designed level is 5 qts with 0.5" of free space in the top.

I will not be running the 2.0 pan low at any time. At idle the pan will be filled to 1/2" below the block. At max pressure the pan will be filled to 1.5" below the block. Witch is the design level for that pan. At steady state 2G's the pick up is covered. With the sloshing taking place, the accusmp will fill the intermittent times when the pick up is uncovered.

If 4 quarts gets stuck in the outside head and only 1 quart in the pan, then I will suck air. But then the accusump will shove another 1.5 quarts into the oil galley and give me another 5-10 seconds of runtime.

I would not run the STI pan over full. One extra quart and the oil would be 1/2" into the block. Add 1.5 quarts (total of 6.5) the oil would be into the crank.

That is why I feel that the STI pan is not compatible with the Accusump.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

After finishing up the Accusump, turbo rebuild, and oil pan shuffle last week. we are on to more important stuff this week.
Because of Michael and my size, the door release handles are to far rearward. So were moving them forward 8".
Does anyone have a suggestion on how to lengthen the rods to the latch mechanism?
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

Mr MIG ;-) Plenty of unused rod from the donor

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I like to remove covers without unplugging things. This is so I can troubleshoot problems.

Has any body mounted the gauge cluster to the frame?
It would be useful to me to remove dash cover and have everything stay plugged in.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Today we went to Wilmington OH for a test and tune. Only 16 people attended as it was a last minute add to the schedule. So we got in about 60 runs between Michael and I. At one point we did 4 runs in 8 minutes then stopped to take temp readings.

A couple of week ago we went to an event only to come home after our first run with our new tire set up. Everything rubbed in a 25mph easy corner.

Over the last couple of weeks we changed ride height, roll center, suspension mounting points. springs rates, shock length, ball joint length, shock bump stops, camber gain and all the alignment parameters.

WOO HOO
The car drove like it was on rails.
No rubbing at all.
All tire temp within a couple of degrees across individual tires. 130* fronts 160* rears.
Brake pads were 150* front 180* rear.
Engine cooling and AWIC working great.
Our oversteer problem is gone with a slight push.

Changes needed
Add cooling fan override switch to turn the fans on high before runs.
Add brake proportional valve to rear brakes.

We are doing the happy dance As Sgt. Gator would say.

Another autocross tomorrow in Columbus IN.

Bob

[Frank818]

Cool!! Nice to hear the ride was great!

[Tamra]

Awesome news!

Why the rear proportioning valve?

Do you have gauges to know how effective the awic was? What is great?

Ours is still heat soaking at idle. We are adding fans on a switch next.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Awesome news!

Why the rear proportioning valve?

Do you have gauges to know how effective the awic was? What is great?

Ours is still heat soaking at idle. We are adding fans on a switch next.

Hi Tamra,
I am running same calipers and pads front and rear. As such my rears lock just a little before my fronts. For that instant the car gets squirrelly.

I was using an infrared reader on my big blue hoses. Right after 4 consecutive runs, 140 input 105 output.
I plan on getting real sensors after registration.

That is surprising that your heat soaking at idle. Are your radiator fans under ECU control. If the fans are off the radiator might be heat soaking your heat exchanger. I would jumper low speed fan relay to on with ignition.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

First thing I must say.
The team over at Columbus (IN) Sports Car Club are a great group of people.
After some pavement issues with the site they used, they ran their first Autocross of the year today on new pavement.
Thank You CSCC-SCCA

Our 818 was in good company with Jeff Kleiner Cobra.

44685

Everything was running great for another 12 runs today. Nobody ran into the corn.

44686

There were a couple other cobras there also:

44687

Jeff's cobra has comparable times to Michaels 818 times.

44688

We don't want to talk about my times.
Bob

[Frank818]

We don't want to talk about my times.

Pos 1 and 2, sounds ok to me! loll :)

Nice ride, Bob!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Our 818 took on some battle scares this weekend.

44691 44692

[Tamra]

Nice job! Glad to see the car is holding up.

Ouch on the cone marks. Did that one on the driver side crack the side panel? Have you found a good solution for getting the marks off?

[Tamra]

Hi Tamra,

That is surprising that your heat soaking at idle. Are your radiator fans under ECU control. If the fans are off the radiator might be heat soaking your heat exchanger. I would jumper low speed fan relay to on with ignition.
Bob

We are going to add a switch to run the fans. So are your fans on all the time? Are you worried about them actually reducing efficiency while you are moving?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Nice job! Glad to see the car is holding up.

Ouch on the cone marks. Did that one on the driver side crack the side panel? Have you found a good solution for getting the marks off?


We are going to add a switch to run the fans. So are your fans on all the time? Are you worried about them actually reducing efficiency while you are moving?

Hi Tamra,
I think it was Chad that suggested Mothers R3
https://www.google.com/#q=mothers+r3&newwindow=1&tbm=shop&spd=12768587647151874340

It works pretty good.
If we waxed our car it would probably work better.
We have not decided on waxing, wrapping, or painting yet.

No damage to any of the fiberglass.

The fan will actually speed up at high speed and charge your battery.

I forgot to mention, with all our suspension changes, our 235/40-17 F and 255/40-17 R "no" rubbing at 4.5" ride height.

We will install a 3 position fan override switch with ecu / low on (ecu high) / high positions.

Good luck getting ready for nationals.
Bob

[Frank818]

with all our suspension changes, our 235/40-17 F and 255/40-17 R "no" rubbing at 4.5" ride height.

Wow! That's great news! No body mods, only suspension mods?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Wow! That's great news! No body mods, only suspension mods?
No body mods, just EVERYTHING else.
Bob

EDIT: do you count making the car a 1/2" longer, a body mod?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Here is one of the videos from Sunday.
Kind of boring. If you look at the horizon, you can see how little the car is rolling.
Need to mount the camera back behind driver,
Bob


http://youtu.be/B4x7mST9ibo

[Tamra]

Holy slalom! That looks like fun. Good driving too

[wleehendrick]

I guess when you set up an autocross in a corn-field, you get an endless slalom!

http://rs717.pbsrc.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Winter/smily1286.gif~c200

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Today we got our windshield installed. It was raining so the first thing we had to do was test the wipers.
Hear is the motor form the inside coming through the firewall.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45272&d=1441837014

Hear is the shaft stick out through the wind shield surround.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45273&d=1441837088

Here is the wiper in action.


http://youtu.be/U-HMdbagCuE

Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I went to a more traditional tail light functionality.

I will switch to LED brake/turn bulbs in the future.

Sorry that my camera doesn't adjust to light levels very well.
Bob

Edit: Just a note, I also wired in a 4 pin trailer connector.


http://youtu.be/SOJUZ8jr6MI

[STiPWRD]

Bob, I like your wiper setup. Is it as simple as it looks? OEM wiper motor? How did you attach it? Thanks

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, I like your wiper setup. Is it as simple as it looks? OEM wiper motor? How did you attach it? Thanks

It is a marine wiper system.
The motor has adjustable sweep from 40 to 110 degrees. Mine is set at 110 and left park.
The arm is adjustable length.
It will fit totally under the hood. I just left it stick out some to get better sweep.
This one is strong enough for a 28” blade. mine is a 20"
I made a nice bracket to mount it. But forgot to get a picture before I closed it up.
Bob


http://www.marinescreens.com/ongaro_heavy_duty_2_speed_wiper_motor___3_5_shaft_ __12v-60331.html


http://productimageserver.com/literature/quickGuide/41535QG.pdf

[STiPWRD]

Thanks, that's some great info.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Getting the windshield installed.

45317

Also installed the radiator fan override switch tonight.
The switch is off-low-high.
So the fan will always run the highest rate of the switch or the ECU command.

Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Just ran into a problem tonight.
Our 2004 Forester XT gauge cluster does not fit into the FFR dash.
I have an extra 06 impreza cluster but the wiring doesn't match at all. (maybe 50 splices)
Need to come up with a quick solution as inspection is Monday.
Bob

[STiPWRD]

Bob, I'm running an 06 sti cluster with my 02 wrx wiring/ecu. I'm not sure if that helps as a point of reference but all I had to do was cut the wire that runs to the buzzer (on the cluster) and everything else was plug and play.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, I'm running an 06 sti cluster with my 02 wrx wiring/ecu. I'm not sure if that helps as a point of reference but all I had to do was cut the wire that runs to the buzzer (on the cluster) and everything else was plug and play.

I just did a quick comparison between 06 impreza and 06 STI clusters. They a very similar wiring.
The 04 forester cluster wiring is very different.
bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Worked on my rear firewall for the humps. I use some heat shied from Dynamat. It's a layer of thick aluminum foil, 1/4" of fiberglass wool, and the an adhesive layer. Worked out great.
Here are some pictures.
Bob

45351

45352

[Frank818]

Hey that's a good idea. I'll try to remember than in 1 year when I get there!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Spent many hours this past weekend getting ready for today Ohio State Trooper Hand built car inspection.
We finished a lot of detail stuff and made sure we had no sharp edges, every firewall joint was sealed. Installed tunnel cover, mirrors, carpeting, wipers, dash, plate brackets, side reflectors, heat shielding, and third brake light.
Thought we were good to go.

The trooper said we needed to meet 2015 bumper requirements.
Front and Rear, 4.5" tall by the track width long. In our case that is about 60"
No rules about how high or how strong. Use your best judgment is basically what he said.

I hope to get something designed and fab up in the next couple of weeks.

On a better note. It was a gorgeous day for a 40 mile round trip to the Inspection office.
The 818 ran like a champ, with no heat issues of any kind.

Bob

[Rasmus]

Aloha818's registration solution (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?18771-Registration-Solution&p=211579#post211579) is looking better and better for me. The amount of hoops and headaches I could skip. No installing parts just to pass.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

The trooper said we needed to meet 2015 bumper requirements.
Front and Rear, 4.5" tall by the track width long. In our case that is about 60"
Bob

As a result of todays failed registration.
I've seen pictured of sixstar's and Tamra's rear bumper bar.
Has anyone done a front or rear bumper.
Please post a picture or link.
Thanks
Bob

[Tamra]

Sorry to hear about the issue with the bumper. Hopefully you'll come up with a good solution. You could always bolt on one of those rally bars to the front!

They let you drive the 818 to be inspected? That's awesome. Ours required that we trailer it, all 4 wheels off the ground.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Sorry to hear about the issue with the bumper. Hopefully you'll come up with a good solution. You could always bolt on one of those rally bars to the front!

They let you drive the 818 to be inspected? That's awesome. Ours required that we trailer it, all 4 wheels off the ground.

Thanks Tamra,
Welcome back and congratulations again.
I'm thinking of bolt on for sure. In my mind, I always knew it need some more protection. This is just going to push me to do it. I will model it up using some PVC tubing and then go for DOM tubing. Bad thing, each bumper will be about 40 lbs.

You pay for your inspection when you schedule it. Just need to carry that receipt. It is only good for that round trip and any after visits required.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

DASH AND TUNNEL
This week we clean up the brake lines, fuel lines and wiring in the tunnel. Also a good shot of our MR2 shifter.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45532&d=1442628749

We installed the Dash and the tunnel cover.'
Plan is to add a cup holders and storage box in the tunnel in front of the shifter.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45534&d=1442628989

The goal for our cockpit was simplicity.
The switches on the dash are ign, start, horn, lights (high and low beam), turn (right and left), Wipers (fast and slow), and fan override (fast and slow)

Michael wants a shorter shifter.

Bob

[DMC7492]

Bob your progress is great. I like the air bleed in the AWIC core. Is there only one on top of the outlet side?
What is the theory with the port on the bottom?

45547

[RM1SepEx]

Bob, did you read the Ohio inspection requirements? In Maine you can't remove your hand from the wheel to operate the blinkers...

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob your progress is great. I like the air bleed in the AWIC core. Is there only one on top of the outlet side?
What is the theory with the port on the bottom?


Hi Don
The tank is higher than the system.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45560&d=1442711149

Gravity makes fluid run out of the tank into the system on the yellow hose.
Air in the system makes its way back into the top of the tank in the red hose.

No bleeding the system anywhere.

The pump force water into the bottom of the heat exchanger forcing any air back to the AWIC.
I usually have to add a pint of fluid after the first heat cycle.
It's been working great for the last 8 months.

Another note. The end you see in this picture is the outlet end of the awic. That flow forces an air to the end with the bleed hose.
Another note. My system is non pressurized.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, did you read the Ohio inspection requirements? In Maine you can't remove your hand from the wheel to operate the blinkers...
I had my inspection this past Monday.
I only failed for not having bumpers front and read. Track width by 4.5" tall.
Bob

[Mechie3]

I think if your shifter was any shorter your only choice would be an auto trans. Lol

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I think if your shifter was any shorter your only choice would be an auto trans. Lol
Hi Craig,
The shifter and tunnel really worked out pretty good. By keeping the cables just below the surface, it turned out very clean looking.
Now I have to figure out how to use all that extra space in the tunnel.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Working on my rear bumper today.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45588&d=1442804380

[DMC7492]

I like the clearance gage for the transmission! TPS(Three Paint Stick) is more than adequate!!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

As you can see a couple of post up. I have not install my wheel well sheet metal.
What are the pros and cons of this?
Bob

[Tamra]

Pros are the splash guards will protect the hoses from any flying debris from the tires, and it also blocks dirt/rocks from getting into the door area. The rear splash guards should also keep the engine bay much cleaner. We were not able to fully install the front splash guards (still working on a good solution) because the tires hit the plate that goes in front of the coolant hoses (and we are running 215's in the front). Fitment is also poor in general and requires trimming.

[Mechie3]

^^ Ditto. Keeps things clean, keeps rocks out of things. My Fmod has no fenders and rocks are always getting into the cockpit, the side pods, etc.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Pros are the splash guards will protect the hoses from any flying debris from the tires, and it also blocks dirt/rocks from getting into the door area. The rear splash guards should also keep the engine bay much cleaner. We were not able to fully install the front splash guards (still working on a good solution) because the tires hit the plate that goes in front of the coolant hoses (and we are running 215's in the front). Fitment is also poor in general and requires trimming.


^^ Ditto. Keeps things clean, keeps rocks out of things. My Fmod has no fenders and rocks are always getting into the cockpit, the side pods, etc.

I understand the rock thing. My side sails tend to fill up.
Tamra, I'll have to show how to fix the front wheels. I'm running R888 235-40/17 on 9" 48ET rims with no rubbing (street ride height)

Bob

[508wrx]

Are you running spacers on your steering rack?

I have a similar setup but I had to put spacers on my rack to reduce the amount of steering so I don't rub.

[Tamra]

I remember your previous post where you said you had no rubbing after "Over the last couple of weeks we changed ride height, roll center, suspension mounting points. springs rates, shock length, ball joint length, shock bump stops, camber gain and all the alignment parameters."

So which one resulted in no rubbing? lol

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Are you running spacers on your steering rack?

I have a similar setup but I had to put spacers on my rack to reduce the amount of steering so I don't rub.


I remember your previous post where you said you had no rubbing after "Over the last couple of weeks we changed ride height, roll center, suspension mounting points. springs rates, shock length, ball joint length, shock bump stops, camber gain and all the alignment parameters."

So which one resulted in no rubbing? lol

Tamra and 508wrx
Add 48 ET wheels to the list.
That all worked together to prevent rub, prevent body roll, keep best tire patch, full turning radius, good handling.

When we went on our 40 mile trip, it was pretty harsh on pot holes.
May need to loose some tire pressure.
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

Pros are the splash guards will protect the hoses from any flying debris from the tires, and it also blocks dirt/rocks from getting into the door area. The rear splash guards should also keep the engine bay much cleaner. We were not able to fully install the front splash guards (still working on a good solution) because the tires hit the plate that goes in front of the coolant hoses (and we are running 215's in the front). Fitment is also poor in general and requires trimming.

In many places the aluminum is too short! What about that rectangular hole in the back? My seam barely meets the edge, I made aluminum plates and riveted them over the holes.

I also want to understand your wheel sizes and "mods" to fit. I'd love to runs 17s front and back

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Not only did Michael learn how to weld on this project. He can now spray paint and drink at the same time.
Bob

46136

[RM1SepEx]

OMG, that bumper is massive!

[Tamra]

That is a pretty serious bumper. Are you planning to keep it installed on the car?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

OMG, that bumper is massive!


That is a pretty serious bumper. Are you planning to keep it installed on the car?

Yes it is.
Safety first, it will stay on, 40lbs rear and 30lbs front. Rasmus is going to hate me.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Today was a pretty good day. Took the 818 back to the state inspection facility with the new bumpers installed.
WE PASSED
I thought we would get our VIN plate today, then to the title office, then to DMV for plates.

But not so quick. The VIN plate has to come from the state capital in Columbus. 3 to 5 days.
So maybe street legal by next weekend.

On the bumper issue. The inspector mentioned that some come in with 3/4" bars. He said "that doesn't cut it".
Future Ohio builders beware.

The Drive.
40 miles at 52F. Tamra, I am getting no engine heat in the cockpit.
About 6-7 people ask me what it was. I told the first couple that it was a Factory Five kit car. They wanted that explained.

Then I change my story to "It's Homemade" They responded "Wow, looks great" the conversation ended as they didn't know what to ask next.

The Car
Gas gauge was at 1/8 so I stopped for gas. Took 10 gallons so there was 3 left, Perfect.

Our 600 lbs rear springs are pretty harsh for street driving.

I'm pretty nervous going down the road next to a semi.

The windshield blocks the wind from hitting you unless there is a decent cross wind.

I need to move my turn signal switch next the shifter.

I can't adjust my side mirrors while strapped in.

235 front tires are wider than needed on the street.

Cop followed me for a couple of blocks with no plates on the car, But didn't stop me.

That's enough for now.
Bob

[Hindsight]

First: CONGRATS!

Second:

I'm pretty nervous going down the road next to a semi.

That's really funny.... the 818 is so small and low that when behind the wheel, I bet it seems that any collision would result in getting driven over instead of just getting smashed into.

[RM1SepEx]

GR8 Bob, Congrats!

[matteo92065]

Alright!

[Tamra]

whoo hoo, congrats!!!!!!!!

Good to know that the fan in the engine bay helps

[Bob_n_Cincy]

whoo hoo, congrats!!!!!!!!

Good to know that the fan in the engine bay helps

Thanks Tamra,
I had my fan override switch off. I not sure if they even turned on under computer control.

I scanned a bunch of stuff when I got pulled into the barn.

All temps F and from my weak memory.
Ambient 55

Tires 75-85
Top radiator hose 175
Bottom radiator hose 160
Exhaust wrap right after turbo 350
turbo output flange 475
right fiberglass hump 105
left hump 85
transmission case 125
Awic water hoses 65

I probably scanned another dozen things, but nothing seemed out of line.
Bob

[AZPete]

Congrats, Bob, on the milestone.

Part of the fun will be the questions &guesses about what it is. I've got to get mine licensed soon!

[mikeb75]

Congrats Bob. Great to know another one's registered! I know you've enjoyed the heck out of the build, now enjoy the rest.

[Mechie3]

Congrats! We make our own vin plates in Indiana.

[freds]

GREAT!

Enjoy it and cope with he "almost nothing to do now" anti climax!!!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

GREAT!

Enjoy it and cope with he "almost nothing to do now" anti climax!!!
Don't worry about nothing to do. This was my sons car. Mine is next.
Bob

[freds]

Don't worry about nothing to do. This was my sons car. Mine is next.
Bob

Phew! What a relief!


Enjoy, and you will with all that experience under your belt.

fred

[flynntuna]

Congrats, looking foward to your 818e build.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Not only did Michael learn how to weld on this project. He can now spray paint and drink at the same time.
Bob



Well of course Bob! Don't ya' know? All good painters drink---one of the old timers who taught me often had to have someone go in the booth and keep a grip on the back of his shirt so he wouldn't fall into the car while he sprayed! Three sheets to the wind he could lay down single stage enamel like glass ;)

Jeff

[Frank818]

Cool you made it!! :)
Have fun! A lot of it!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Michael and I had a great day autocrossing today. The day started of at 54 degrees on blacktop the was resealed this year. It was pretty slick. That afternoon fun run session temp was up to 75 and track was much stickier.
Mike and I got in 21 runs today. The last 9 runs were within 30 minutes. Beat on the 818 and it came through with flying colors.
Bob

Here are 3 videos of mikes runs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpoaPjOmVvU

[Bob_n_Cincy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq8AUIwCQho

Most of our spins in the 818 are only 180 degrees. at the 30 to 32 second mark Michael stayed in the gas and it went around to 270.
Some builders are reducing their steering rack travel. As you see in this video, Michael is using the full 540 degrees counter steer in an attempt to stop the over steer. It wasn't enough.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AclP-brsjY

[Tamra]

On the 2nd video with the big spin, I can hear some odd tire chirping right before the spin while Mike's still going straight. Is that the brakes locking up?

Looks like your car is more stable on power than ours, but looks pretty loose on corner entry and lift. Would you say that is accurate?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

On the 2nd video with the big spin, I can hear some odd tire chirping right before the spin while Mike's still going straight. Is that the brakes locking up?
Looks like your car is more stable on power than ours, but looks pretty loose on corner entry and lift. Would you say that is accurate?

Good ear Tamra.
That chirp is our rear wheels locking up. We have plans for a rear Proportional valve, but that was not high on our list during the registration process.

We were pushing the car pretty hard all day. Michael had the only 2 spins in our 21 runs. But here were probably 100 saves. Michael is getting pretty good at drifting out of corners if break loose on exit. Just have watch out for the outside cones.

I was have problems with over correcting. The tail would kick out and I would get out of the gas and counter steer. The tail would snap back, but I would loose a lot of speed.

Coming out of corners Michael goes to full throttle. At our 225 ft-lbs of wtq, it should give us 0.77 G forward acceleration coming out of corners. To me, this seems to be a pretty good balance. If we crank up the boost, we would have to wait until we are straighter before going full on.

Bob

[metros]

Congrats on getting it registered. I've been catching up on your build and love the creative solutions you come up with.

The wiper solution makes the ffr kit look like a hack job.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Congrats on getting it registered. I've been catching up on your build and love the creative solutions you come up with.

The wiper solution makes the ffr kit look like a hack job.

Thanks Metros,
I passed inspection but not quite registered yet. VIN plate should arrive later this week. Then get title and then plates.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Motorcycle has more horsepower than my 818. What was I thinking.

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2015/10/06/lightning-ls-218-review-244-horsepower-230-ftlbs-torque/

Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

For the new builders,
The double flaring tool that works, is on sale.

http://www.eastwood.com/professional-brake-tubing-flaring-tool.html?SRCCODE=1EM3289&trk_msg=64V1B29FOL14PDDO68T6I68NG4&trk_contact=NNHKR2FAMLSEPFO95H7EET62SS&utm_source=Listrak&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=http%3a%2f%2fwww.eastwood.com%2fprofessio nal-brake-tubing-flaring-tool.html%3fSRCCODE%3d1EM3289&utm_campaign=1EM3289&utm_content=1EM3289

[Hindsight]

Nice, I think I have only seen $199 before... $189 is great.

Assuming I have no leaks in my system (have yet to bleed it), I should be done with mine. It performed flawlessly. There is just one issue I had with it, and it was my issue. The mandrels have two different sides. They aren't marked on the top (only on the end), so a few times I put the top on 180 degrees off, and got half a double flare plus half an ISO flare. It's very easy to do. I ended up marking the top with an arrow to ensure I didn't keep making the mistake.

[Tamra]

So when are you guys going to slap some race tires on that thing and really start going for it? :) You'd probably shave 3 seconds or more just from tires.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

So when are you guys going to slap some race tires on that thing and really start going for it? :) You'd probably shave 3 seconds or more just from tires.
For now Michael and I are just racing each other. (he is kicking my butt)
Remember the plan for our car is 80% DD, 10% autox, and 10% track day.
So our Toyo 235-255 R888 are the tires we plan to run for a while. We will need to take them off for the freezing weather.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46492&d=1444401337

[Tamra]

That's no fun! We would love to compete with you next year at one of the national events in OH. All you have to do is buy one more set of wheels and put some hoosiers on them, and use the R888's for the street! :) Your garage looks big enough to fit just one more set of wheels/tires...:p

How's your 0 camber experiment going in regard to tire wear?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That's no fun! We would love to compete with you next year at one of the national events in OH. All you have to do is buy one more set of wheels and put some hoosiers on them, and use the R888's for the street! :) Your garage looks big enough to fit just one more set of wheels/tires...:p
How's your 0 camber experiment going in regard to tire wear?

We are @-0.5 camber with Michael and I sitting in the car. Going to bump that up to -1.0 degrees.
It took 9 runs in 30 minutes to get these tires up to 160F. And that was drifting the car out of the corners. :)
Going to do 1 or 2 events this weekend.

The A7's will come in the spring.

At some point in the next couple of weeks, we will move our focus to my 818 #21
Bob

[Tamra]

The A7's will come in the spring.

Yay for Hoosiers! :)

Good luck this weekend. We have a double header planned as well. Going to NJ tomorrow and MA on Sunday.

[Goldwing]

Congrats on passing inspection Bob!
Thanks for posting pics of your rear bumper.
2 questions: Can you post a pic of the front bumper solution you came up with?
For someone a bit weak on structural engineering, what thickness and size tubing did you use for the bumpers? I did see the 3/4" steel will not be looked upon well, lol.

Thanks!

Rich

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Congrats on passing inspection Bob!
Thanks for posting pics of your rear bumper.
2 questions: Can you post a pic of the front bumper solution you came up with?
For someone a bit weak on structural engineering, what thickness and size tubing did you use for the bumpers? I did see the 3/4" steel will not be looked upon well, lol.

Thanks!

Rich

Rich,
the rear is 1.75 tube 0.95 wall mild steel
the front is 1.50 tube 0.95 wall mild steel
The mechanical engineering on the bumpers is pretty bad. A lot more triangulation should have been done.
We were limited to the rules and pick up points on the chassis we had to work with.
On my second car, the design will change and I will build 2 and replace this one.
What I originally wanted is something that would gradually absorbed energy as it collapsed.
A foam block might be safer. But had to meet Ohio laws.
Below is a picture of the front.
Bob
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46527&d=1444449761

[Goldwing]

Thanks Bob.

I wonder what they'd think of attaching the bumper to the 3/4" collapsible cage so that it collapses with the cage?

With the radiator in my way, I'd have to keep the support outside of the cage if I mounted the bumper to the main frame. I suppose the lower bar of the cage could be reinforced or replaced with something more substantial, but would be awfully low to the ground. Wonder how much good it would do in a collision. I'll have to keep pondering.

Thanks!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Michael and I Are also doing a double autocross this weekend.
Columbus, Indiana today and Wilmington, Ohio tomorrow.

Something we did notice today.
We did 12 runs in 90 minutes. This is typical for a autocross with co-drivers driving the same car.
Our R888 tires did not get hot and sticky. I estimate only to 120 degrees. (65f ambient)

A lot of people (40) stop by at the end of the event to see the car.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46534&d=1444514837

[Frank818]

Wow that's nice stuff there!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Below is Michael's fastest run video.
There were 53 Drivers there today. Michael had the 2nd fastest raw time.
The only faster Driver was in a XP Lotus Elise (I think it was supercharged)

Michael is getting pretty good with the 818. Watch his hands catch power induced oversteer as he crosses the finish line at the 57 second mark.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHnlScv_B8U&feature=youtu.be

[Mechie3]

Black lotus with a giant wing and "upshift" license plate? If so thats Dallas from Indy region.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Black lotus with a giant wing and "upshift" license plate? If so thats Dallas from Indy region.
Nope, His name was BJ Mcgee.

[Tamra]

Only 53 drivers? Our event would have been cancelled if less than 100 showed up! I bet you got a ton of runs.

Car looks like it was transitioning pretty well.

Good luck again today!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Michael and I had a great weekend auto crossing. Between us we had 27.001 runs at 2 events.
Everything was running perfect until our very last run opportunity, when we snapped the right rear axle during launch.

Here is Mike's fastest run today.

https://youtu.be/zxiWVl0joYc

Here is the axle breaking.


https://youtu.be/HS9kN_Pd_78

I think we have everything we need to fix it Monday evening.

[Tamra]

One axle out of how many launches? Not bad! A little bad since you're only on street tires though...

Coming from the S2000 world which has a diff and axles made of glass... make sure you get the revs up high enough so that when you dump the clutch you get the tires fully spinning. You are getting very bad wheel hop, which puts a lot of stress on the drivetrain. For added protection, pull the e-brake and slip the clutch a little to preload/remove backlash everything prior to launching (put the e-brake down prior to launching).

[Bob_n_Cincy]

One axle out of how many launches? Not bad! A little bad since you're only on street tires though...

Coming from the S2000 world which has a diff and axles made of glass... make sure you get the revs up high enough so that when you dump the clutch you get the tires fully spinning. You are getting very bad wheel hop, which puts a lot of stress on the drivetrain. For added protection, pull the e-brake and slip the clutch a little to preload/remove backlash everything prior to launching (put the e-brake down prior to launching).

Hi Tamra,
We have made somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 to 300 launches in the 818.
I not sure I would call my R888 street tires.
https://www.toyotires.com/tire/pattern/proxes-r888-DOT-competition-tires

The wheel hop is another issue that I have not addresses yet.
For the last month I've been back to running my donor lower trailing arm. They have better tire clearance than my ebay Godspeed arms. I will try changing to some urethane bushing to get rid of the wheel hop.

Thanks for the pointer on preloading the drivetrain.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Tonight Michael and I rebuilt our broken axle in a couple of hours.
I remember spending a couple of days building are axles the first time.

The break was clean at the spline to shaft transition inside the wheel CV joint.
About 1 hour of our time was spent taking the CV apart and the reassembling. Getting the balls back in is a PITA.
It had to be done, to get the broken snub out.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46579&d=1444708313


The broken shaft shows a slight twist. There as a line on shaft from a roller that was made during the steel making process. We highlighted that line with a red marker.

We plan on building up an extra set of axles to keep with our autocross spares.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46580&d=1444708315

Here is a picture of the break. If anyone wants to analyze it.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46581&d=1444708316

Bob

One other note: You cannot tell that the shaft is broke visually as the break in inside the outer boot.
By grabbing the shaft near the outer CV, you can feel about 1" of play.

[svanlare]

How bad is the job of getting the stub out? As for the break, pretty much all of the recent breaks seem to be exactly at the same spot. Might have to pull Carroll Smith's books off the shelf and read about stress risers.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

How bad is the job of getting the stub out? As for the break, pretty much all of the recent breaks seem to be exactly at the same spot. Might have to pull Carroll Smith's books off the shelf and read about stress risers.
To get the outer CV apart:
1: Using a 3/16 flat tip punch and a kid size plastic hammer. hit in one point of the center star. This rotates the opposite side out of the CV.
2. Using a small screw driver, pop the exposed ball out of the hole in the cage.
3 . Repeat the process until you get all the balls out.
4. Twist star and cage to 90 degrees and remove.
Notice that the star and cage are directional. The thin side of each goes toward the transmission.

Reverse process to reassemble, except tap the balls in through the cage.
Fill with grease.

This process sounds simple. It is not.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This past week not much got done.
Still waiting for our VIN tag to arrive from the state capital.

Replaced our broken axle.

We were having a problem with our rear wheels locking up if we came into a corner to hot. So we decided to add an adjustable proportioning valve to the rear brakes. The knob is right behind our shifter.

While adding the proportioning valve for our rear brakes, we also upgraded to all SS flexible lines at each wheel.

We were also looking at changing Master cylinders to move the fill cap out from under the windshield.
46688
This did not work out on our first attempt. We will try this again on our second car.

We are headed out in the morning to Wilmington, OH (our home track) for an autocross test n tune. Should get a bunch of runs in to see what we can break. We have got to be +300 runs on this car.

Bob

[Frank818]

Bob, while relocating the reservoir, if you use DOT5.1 fluid make sure you DON'T use soft silicone lines. They will perspire the fluid through. Use some approved fuel or coolant lines.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, while relocating the reservoir, if you use DOT5.1 fluid make sure you DON'T use soft silicone lines. They will perspire the fluid through. Use some approved fuel or coolant lines.

Frank,
I'm not adding any lines to relocate my MC filler cap. I am going to a MC with a different shaped tank. see picture in previous post.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Today at 6AM with it 29F at our barn, Michael and I were putting the car back together.
We had a great day, with 30 autocross runs. Michael's times were right there with a couple of highly modified Corvettes.
Our new brake pressure adjustability is working out great.

Before last weeks autocross, we filled the tank. We filled it again this morning.
2.8 gallons and 15 runs later equals. 0.187 gallons per run or 5.3 runs per gallon.
Coarse was about 65 seconds per run.
Engine = 2.5L 210 bhp (spec),195whp(measured) ~1800 lb car and 600 lbs of ballast.
Driver = Very Aggressive
Bob

[Tamra]

Your fuel use sounds about right. Last weekend when we did two events in a row, around 20 or so runs, we were at just under 3 gallons. We are making 300whp though. We filled it to the top of the filler neck before and after to be sure we knew how much we used.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Your fuel use sounds about right. Last weekend when we did two events in a row, around 20 or so runs, we were at just under 3 gallons. We are making 300whp though. We filled it to the top of the filler neck before and after to be sure we knew how much we used.

Hi Tamra,
Great driving in your 818 and the s2000.
Our front tank has a 3" filler hole that we can see the gas coming up during filling. The tank is almost a gallon per inch. We have our safety foam within one inch of the top. That is where we stop. We have made runs with as little as 2 gallons left in the tank. No sign of fuel starvation.
Michael wants to add a filler tube so we don't have to open the hood to fill the tank. Have you selected a fuel cell yet?
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

A quick update on Michael's and my progress.

Decided to switch all our hose clamps to the OEM spring type. Over the last couple of cooler months we have had a couple of worm drive clamps start to leak. While we had no issue with the spring type. So this week we switched them all to spring type.

This weekend we are installing our double heater system.
The Subaru quick warm up heater system is great. Well we are installing a double system. We plan to be ably to drive the car around down to 30F.

We are about ready to move our efforts to the second car. So here is a nice transition picture.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=47024&d=1446252856

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Normally I post videos of our best run of the day.
This time I'm going to post the ugliest run of the day.
This is what happens when you push to hard.

This was actually a clean run with no cones.
Bob


https://youtu.be/UMEPSYvlMAI

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Today was a pretty good day. Took the 818 back to the state inspection facility with the new bumpers installed.
WE PASSED
I thought we would get our VIN plate today, then to the title office, then to DMV for plates.

But not so quick. The VIN plate has to come from the state capital in Columbus. 3 to 5 days.
So maybe street legal by next weekend.

Bob

After passing Ohio State trooper Inspection a month ago.
They told me a few days to get my VIN number.
We today I finally got my VIN number. Then I went to the Title office and paid taxes and got my new title.

It is listed as:
2015 Assembled Vehicle
Model 818S
Mileage: 94032 (from engine/dash donor)
Purchase price $14665.40 (Total of my receipts)
Tax 1026.58

Tomorrow going for plates.

Bob

[Jeff Kleiner]

Yahoo Bob & Michael---FULLY LEGAL! :cool:

Jeff