TN Father and Son Coupe Build - Need to grind spacers for Konis?

[Afdent11]

A couple of quick questions.

1. I noticed the tiniest little tear in one of the ball joint boots. When it's just sitting there, it's practically invisible, and I don't think it goes through the whole thickness of the boot. If I push on it a little, you can see a tiny (less than 1mm) surface tear. I'm assuming that's probably okay? See pic.

2. There are two extra metal spacers that came in the bag with the castle nuts and cotter pins. They seem familiar from the build school, but I've looked ahead and can't find them called out in the manual. Anyone know what they're for (see pic).

3. I remember at some point early on, there are a set of parts that are specifically labeled right and left, but I'm supposed to swap them because they're labeled like that for the hot rod only. Can someone let me know which parts those are so it's fresh in my mind?

Thank you!

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[Papa]

Any cut or tear in the boot will not improve with age and use. I would replace it. Is it the upper or lower?

The spacers go under the castle nut to help align the hole for the cotter pin with the nut. Without the spacer, the nut will sit below the hole and not engage the cutter pin.

The spindles are marked DS and PS. It depends on if the arms for the tie rod face forward or to the rear. On the roadster and Coupe, they face forward. Also be careful with those arms to be sure you mount them correctly. The hole for the ball joint is tapered and the wider part of the taper goes on the bottom with the ball joints going through from the bottom with the nut on the top.

[Afdent11]

Any cut or tear in the boot will not improve with age and use. I would replace it. Is it the upper or lower?

The spacers go under the castle nut to help align the hole for the cotter pin with the nut. Without the spacer, the nut will sit below the hole and not engage the cutter pin.

The spindles are marked DS and PS. It depends on if the arms for the tie rod face forward or to the rear. On the roadster and Coupe, they face forward. Also be careful with those arms to be sure you mount them correctly. The hole for the ball joint is tapered and the wider part of the taper goes on the bottom with the ball joints going through from the bottom with the nut on the top.

Thank you! It's the lower. Can you just replace the boot? Is it a pretty easy swap out? Looking at it I can't tell how you would remove it, but watching videos of other boot replacements online it looks like they use a coiled spring/clip of some sort. If I can change just the boot, do you know where I could get that part?

Once you told me about the castle nut spacer, I went to that section and found it and also found the clarification about the spindle side mounting on the page before it. Sorry, I should have read more carefully before asking, but thank you!!

One more question about grease. I have read tons of FF Forum posts about this topic. It seems to me that using the Lucas Red N Tacky Synthetic/Lithium grease would be appropriate for things like ball joints, but that I should find a different silicone based/PTFE grease for things like bushings. Is that what most of you have done, or do you have a different recommendation?

Jesse

[Papa]

If the ball joint is pressed in, it was likely damaged during installation. I don't know what FFR is using in the cast control arms. I'd reach out to FFR to see what they recommend.

Don't overthink the grease. I use plain old wheel bearing grease in the perks, and white lithium grease on other parts that call for a thin layer, like on the coil over washers, etc..

[Namrups]

Put the rack mounting bolts in from the other direction or you will not be able to remove them after the radiator panel is installed.

[Afdent11]

Put the rack mounting bolts in from the other direction or you will not be able to remove them after the radiator panel is installed.

Got it. Thank you!

[Ejzajac]

Yes, you need to turn that front lower LCA bolt around. Later you'll be adding sheet metal and the bolt will be trapped if installed in that direction. I know the manual shows it the way you installed it.

X2 on no snap rings on that lower ball joint. Get used to having leftover parts. I have a box of them after every build.

Attachment 228324

I believe those LCA nuts are "Metal Lock" nuts, ie Stover Nuts. Is it safe/OK to re-use them for a seconf torque or should they be replaved with new ones?

[Jeff Kleiner]

I believe those LCA nuts are "Metal Lock" nuts, ie Stover Nuts. Is it safe/OK to re-use them for a seconf torque or should they be replaved with new ones?

You can reuse them.

Jeff

[Afdent11]

For the KONI double adjustables, I can’t get them to fit with the .675 spacers on the top mount. Are they wider than the regular red ones? Should I just grind the spacers down a little? I’m guessing it should be a very snug fit there right? The lower mount point spacers fit, but there is just a little movement in it.

[Afdent11]

Got the Konis ready, just going to wait on some advice for the spacers and how much play there should be before I bolt them up. I'm going to turn them so the adjusting screw on the bottom is facing the rear of the car.

We moved ahead with the upper control arms today and getting the ball joints inserted. They threaded about half of the way by hand, then I put them in the vice for the rest and was able to get them to bottom out without a crazy amount of force, but it did take some effort. It's funny that one of the ball joint dust boots sits on there really nice, but on the other side it wants to pop off. Swapping the boots doesn't make a difference, so it's something about that lip on the one ball joint itself that the boot sits on. I suppose once the castle nut is placed, it will help hold it down and make a better seal.

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[edwardb]

It's not unusual to have to tweak the length of the various spacers. For the upper mount, if they're not off a lot, you could spread the tabs slightly. You do know about the threaded rod/nuts/washers trick for spreading suspension tabs? If they're off more than you're comfortable bending, then shorten the spacers as needed. The lower ends into that forged arms should be a reasonably tight fit. Assuming you have the right spacers, adding a washer could be a solution. FYI, I noticed when assembling my Mk5 with forged arms, some of the spacers and bolt lengths hadn't quite caught up with the new arms.

For that ball joint boot, you posted earlier about using the Energy Suspension boots. But that's not what you pictured.

[Afdent11]

It's not unusual to have to tweak the length of the various spacers. For the upper mount, if they're not off a lot, you could spread the tabs slightly. You do know about the threaded rod/nuts/washers trick for spreading suspension tabs? If they're off more than you're comfortable bending, then shorten the spacers as needed. The lower ends into that forged arms should be a reasonably tight fit. Assuming you have the right spacers, adding a washer could be a solution. FYI, I noticed when assembling my Mk5 with forged arms, some of the spacers and bolt lengths hadn't quite caught up with the new arms.

For that ball joint boot, you posted earlier about using the Energy Suspension boots. But that's not what you pictured.

I don’t know about the threaded rod trick for spreading suspension tabs. I could look that up. I figured they need to have some play so that the heim joint on the Konis has some room to move, right? Or do I not worry about that and just make it so the spacers just barely fit?

I had a million thoughts running through my head and completely spaced that I had the Energy Suspension boots for those upper ball joints. Now I have to run back out there and try them out! Haha!

[Afdent11]

I don’t know about the threaded rod trick for spreading suspension tabs. I could look that up. I figured they need to have some play so that the heim joint on the Konis has some room to move, right? Or do I not worry about that and just make it so the spacers just barely fit?

I had a million thoughts running through my head and completely spaced that I had the Energy Suspension boots for those upper ball joints. Now I have to run back out there and try them out! Haha!

Okay found the trick for spreading the tabs. Push the threaded rod through with [washer - nut - nut - washer] all on the rod within the tabs and just use a wrench to slowly turn the nuts and push the tabs apart, right?

From one of your previous posts it looks like the shorter boot is for the UCA and it doesn't fit over the ball joint lip like the stock ones, it just sits on top of it right? I guess once its all assembled it's plenty of pressure to keep the grease in.

I'm going to order the 9.13101G boots for the rod ends, too. Any other places I'll want these Energy Suspension boots?

[edwardb]

I don’t know about the threaded rod trick for spreading suspension tabs. I could look that up. I figured they need to have some play so that the heim joint on the Konis has some room to move, right? Or do I not worry about that and just make it so the spacers just barely fit?

I had a million thoughts running through my head and completely spaced that I had the Energy Suspension boots for those upper ball joints. Now I have to run back out there and try them out! Haha!

Okay found the trick for spreading the tabs. Push the threaded rod through with [washer - nut - nut - washer] all on the rod within the tabs and just use a wrench to slowly turn the nuts and push the tabs apart, right?

From one of your previous posts it looks like the shorter boot is for the UCA and it doesn't fit over the ball joint lip like the stock ones, it just sits on top of it right? I guess once its all assembled it's plenty of pressure to keep the grease in.

I'm going to order the 9.13101G boots for the rod ends, too. Any other places I'll want these Energy Suspension boots?

Yes, what you described for the spreader is correct. I couldn't find a picture so snapped a quick pic of mine. It's 7/16" diameter because that's what I had on hand at the time. Another size could work, like 1/2", as long as it fits through the holes. It's possible to move the tabs in other ways, e.g. with a large smooth jaw adjustable wrench or something similar. But the spreader method works very well and reduces the chance of damaging or marring the powder coat.

Yes, the shorter ES boot is for the upper. It doesn't fit over the lip as you said but stays in place fine. It looks different when the suspension is at ride height vs. hanging in full droop during assembly.

No sure what you meant by needing to have play so the Heim joint can work. The inner race of the shocks should be firmly held between the suspension mounts and bushings. When you torque the standard steel tabs (like the front upper) that will happen by default. IMO on the the forged arms you don't want to take up excessive slack by torquing the bolts. That's why I suggested the fit should be snug with the spacers before tightening the mounting bolts.

The front upper ball joints and the tie rod ends are the only places I've switched to the ES boots on my builds.

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[Afdent11]

No sure what you meant by needing to have play so the Heim joint can work. The inner race of the shocks should be firmly held between the suspension mounts and bushings. When you torque the standard steel tabs (like the front upper) that will happen by default. IMO on the the forged arms you don't want to take up excessive slack by torquing the bolts. That's why I suggested the fit should be snug with the spacers before tightening the mounting bolts.

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Makes sense. I just needed a minute to think about how movement happens there. If the inner race is clamped firmly, that doesn't stop the shocks from being able to pivot slightly around that point.

Thank you!!

[edwardb]

Makes sense. I just needed a minute to think about how movement happens there. If the inner race is clamped firmly, that doesn't stop the shocks from being able to pivot slightly around that point.

Thank you!!

With the spacers in place, there's enough room for the outer portion of the joint (and the top of the shock) to move some degrees in every direction. More than enough to handle what little they move during operation. Editorial comment: I applaud you thinking and analyzing things during your build. And I don't expect you to believe everything you read on the internet (). But what I'm describing is exactly how the installation is described in the assembly manual, e.g. bolt, spacers, shock, torque to xx ft lbs. Which by definition is going to trap the inner race. Literally thousands have been built this way and it's standard for how shocks are installed in all cars.

[Jeff Kleiner]

With the spacers in place, there's enough room for the outer portion of the joint (and the top of the shock) to move some degrees in every direction. More than enough to handle what little they move during operation. Editorial comment: I applaud you thinking and analyzing things during your build. And I don't expect you to believe everything you read on the internet (). But what I'm describing is exactly how the installation is described in the assembly manual, e.g. bolt, spacers, shock, torque to xx ft lbs. Which by definition is going to trap the inner race. Literally thousands have been built this way and it's standard for how shocks are installed in all cars.

Much like Paul "edwardb" said above regarding the shock's spherical bearing is the installation of the lower control arms. You want the chassis tabs to close tightly on the control arm bushing's steel inner sleeve, NOT on the polyurethane.

Jeff

[Afdent11]

With the spacers in place, there's enough room for the outer portion of the joint (and the top of the shock) to move some degrees in every direction. More than enough to handle what little they move during operation. Editorial comment: I applaud you thinking and analyzing things during your build. And I don't expect you to believe everything you read on the internet (). But what I'm describing is exactly how the installation is described in the assembly manual, e.g. bolt, spacers, shock, torque to xx ft lbs. Which by definition is going to trap the inner race. Literally thousands have been built this way and it's standard for how shocks are installed in all cars.

Thank you. I'm a bit of an overanalyzer (clearly), but I'll get better about that throughout the build (hopefully).

So grateful for all your (and everyone else's) direction. Thank you!

[Afdent11]

Much like Paul "edwardb" said above regarding the shock's spherical bearing is the installation of the lower control arms. You want the chassis tabs to close tightly on the control arm bushing's steel inner sleeve, NOT on the polyurethane.

Jeff

Right. That helps it make more sense. Thank you!

[Papa]

Put the rack mounting bolts in from the other direction or you will not be able to remove them after the radiator panel is installed.

Got it. Thank you!

I just flipped mine. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Afdent11]

For these lower control arms, when I put the 2.75 bolts through to mount the shock, there are only 2 or 3 threads poking through on the other side. I’ve got about 2mm of space in between after adding the spacers, so I added a washer to help make it so the controls arms aren’t getting bent too much as they torque down. Should I just remove that washer and let it bend in the 2-3 mm so I get more thread engagement on the bolt? Also, the supplied washers are just a little big and they don’t sit flush on the control arm because there is a little raised curve right there.

[Papa]

For these lower control arms, when I put the 2.75 bolts through to mount the shock, there are only 2 or 3 threads poking through on the other side. I’ve got about 2mm of space in between after adding the spacers, so I added a washer to help make it so the controls arms aren’t getting bent too much as they torque down. Should I just remove that washer and let it bend in the 2-3 mm so I get more thread engagement on the bolt? Also, the supplied washers are just a little big and they don’t sit flush on the control arm because there is a little raised curve right there.

I'd recommend getting longer bolts. A few guys have commented that FFR hasn't caught up the hardware pack for some of the newer stuff.

[Afdent11]

I'd recommend getting longer bolts. A few guys have commented that FFR hasn't caught up the hardware pack for some of the newer stuff.

Okay will do. What’s ideal? That the end of the bolt sit flush with the end of the nylon lock nut? Or just past it?

[Papa]

Okay will do. What’s ideal? That the end of the bolt sit flush with the end of the nylon lock nut? Or just past it?

You wat a few threads past the nut to be visible at a minimum.

[Afdent11]

Are all of these bolts okay to insert front to back like the manual shows? Also, I’ve got the top and bottom adjustment dials on the shocks set facing the back of the car.

[Papa]

I just flipped my LCA front bolts so the nut is forward. With the bolt put in from the front, you'd need to remove the radiator aluminum to get the bolt out.

[Afdent11]

I just flipped my LCA front bolts so the nut is forward. With the bolt put in from the front, you'd need to remove the radiator aluminum to get the bolt out.

Yes got that one switched. And someone said to switch the power steering bolt too. Just wondering if there are any others or if there is any reason to not face the Koni adjustment dials towards the back.

[Papa]

I don’t have any experience with the QA1 double adjustable shocks. I would think as long as you can access the adjuster, it wouldn't matter. They are specific with respect to body up/down orientation.