John in KC - Roadster Build Thread

[JMD]

Big milestone this week: I think my tune is pretty much dialed in. I've been working on it for weeks now, starting with the ignition timing, deciding on a final AFR target table, dialing in my hot idle and hot & cold startups, then once my learn table was only showing 1-3% values I started fine tuning them manually and working on my acceleration enrichment tables. Actually swapped out my air cleaner because I could see the kpa drop in the manifold during a power pull. Lots of datalogging, some experimenting, and just a few days ago ran the car in the first open loop tune to see where the fuel table really was without the closed loop affecting it. It actually ran great. I took a bunch of datalogs, did a few more rounds of fine tuning the AE & base fuel table manually and think it's about done. (Well, tuning is never 'done', but good enough that no significant changes are needed.) It really is amazing how an engine can seem to run pretty well when 'in the ballpark', but paying attention to the details and sensor data and making changes based on that data will certainly give you a sharper, crisper and stronger feeling engine. My father thought I was crazy to keep messing with it. He thought it ran fine and it did...until I made a change and you could feel it improve. He kept thinking 'that must be as good as it gets, why do you keep messing with it?'. But at this point I do think I'm finally about there. Some in depth dyno tuning might pick up something here and there, but I'm pretty sure it's about where it needs to be. You've got to be willing to experiment and find what the engine likes. Totally worth it!

The Sniper wizard setup and learning will get your engine running decently well, but there are a lot of parameters that need to be custom set for each engine. There are multiple parameters that dictate how the IAC works, which affect your hot and cold starts and how the car idles and comes back to idle after throttle. Not to mention the 6 different AE tables that tell you when and how much accel enrichment there is and where, temperature offsets for startup and fueling, cranking fuel tables, startup enrichment tables, how your closed loop and base fuel tables learn...so much. You're never going to get a great starting and running engine with a 'box tune' that simply adapts the fuel table to an overly simple AFR table. So yes, the Sniper is great, it will usually do a good job of getting your engine running safely, but you will need to get it tuned or learn to tune yourself if you really want it to perform properly. (Lots of Joe Simpson videos on this topic on youtube.) Ok, stepping down from my soapbox...

I've really enjoyed learning the Sniper EFI system and so glad I did. If you can't tell, I do tend to geek out about this kind of thing quite a lot. Definitely one of my favorite parts of the build.

[JMD]

I wasn't going to do this originally, but after looking at the sensor data while tuning the engine I had to do something.

I could see my MAP sensor reading 99kpa atmospheric before startup, start a power pull at 98kpa (which is great, indicating minimal intake restriction, practically none!), until I got up around 4k rpm where it would start dropping and end up around 94kpa at redline. I was pulling vacuum and losing power because of the air filter. Probably not much...maybe 10 hp at the top end, but I couldn't let it go.

Greg actually had a spare 14x3 K&N in his garage that he gave me and I cobbled the rest together. It fits, but barely. Maybe 3/8" clearance to the hood but 3x the filter area than before. I wasn't expecting it, but the engine seems to run more smoothly at all RPM and certainly pulls harder up top. I had to increase fuel by about 3% in several areas and richen the idle because it went from 14:1 to 15:1 just by changing the filter. Super happy I did it. Probably overkill for my engine, but certainly doesn't hurt to have it!

The Cobra oval: I really like the look of it! Sad to see it go.
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The replacement: Not as pretty, but more functional and that better fits the theme of this build.
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[F500guy]

I was not sad to see the thin large cobra air cleaner go. I have a K&N like that and a bling air filter to test out. What MAP sensor did you use for that? I was looking to get one for my data system but It is new area for me and not sure what would work best.

[JMD]

I used the MAP sensor built into the Sniper 2 and the free Holley EFI desktop software to read all the sensors and change the tune parameters.

[Mike.Bray]

Airflow is important?

I saw a dyno test not long ago on EFI stacks and different screens and filters. Of course nothing on the velocity stacks yielded the most power. What was surprising is how much power was robbed by putting K&N filters on them. I can't remember the exact number but something like 40-50 HP. It was a lot.

I just have screens on mine which was about a 10 HP drop.

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[JMD]

There's always going to be a balance between airflow and filtration. The better the filter the greater the restriction. Some designs are better than others, but generally this is always going to be true. For me the K&N is the least amount of filtration I want to have for my engine while using a larger element to make up for airflow. It will keep out any larger particles while still flowing so much better than a paper filter element. There is no significant drop in manifold pressure at any rpm with this setup, which tells me it's flowing plenty for my application. The same size filter may restrict an engine much bigger, but not this 302. Screens will keep out the squirrels, rocks, and large bugs, but that's about it.

[gbranham]

Following Mike's line of thought, this is my new filter setup. Lol. Just ribbing ya, Mike.

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[Mike.Bray]

Did I tell you Greg I'm planning on a ProFlo for my Camaro? Building a 427 SBC for it.

[gbranham]

Did I tell you Graham I'm planning on a ProFlo for my Camaro? Building a 427 SBC for it.

You did! I'm looking forward to hearing your experience with it. I'm really happy with mine. Wouldn't have gone that route had it not been for you steering me away from other options. Thanks again, my dude!

Greg

[Mike.Bray]

You did! I'm looking forward to hearing your experience with it. I'm really happy with mine. Wouldn't have gone that route had it not been for you steering me away from other options. Thanks again, my dude!

Greg

I'll keep you posted. I'm paying as I go and right now with the purchase of the car plus all of the upgrades I've done so far to get to a nice driver stage I'm afraid the 427 build is not moving very fast. I'm hoping by the end of the year to have a short block and heads done. After that I'll drop it in at some point replacing the existing anemic 350. I'll keep the existing Edelbrock intake and carb (ugh) along with the existing headers and 2" exhaust for now. Take a few months to recover and I'll do the ProFlo and new headers with 3" exhaust.

At some point I need to install the 9" rear I've built along with a new gas tank and EFI pump setup.

So realistically at least 12-18 months out. But it's very exciting.

[UKSNAKE]

6/11

4.5 hrs - Brake balance bar adjusted, charcoal vent install, passenger aluminum footbox finalized

Did a lot of research on setting up the balance bar. It's really easy to miss something here. I advise searching the forums and watching the wilwood video if you don't quite understand how it's supposed to work. Made sure mine was properly engaging the master cylinder plungers, brake pedal cleared from hitting frame, correct distance between clevis and pedal shaft, bar centered, and set screw adjusted to allow the 'click' for each turn of the balance bar. I had cut 5/8" off the MC plungers but still had to draw them into the clevis a ways until they weren't pushing against the pedal at rest. Thinking of installing the remote bias adjuster, but not at the moment. Looks to be pretty easy to get to even with the footbox panels in place.

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Trimmed shoulder panel on passenger side. Apparently this panel always needs trimming from the factory, per build school. If you don't, the body will hit and be pushed up in this area and you'll have a heck of a time trying to make the door fit properly.

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Installed charcoal vent. I bent the bracket to lay on top of frame member. If mounted on the side of the frame member as shown in the manual the bottom rests against the IRS framing. Bringing it up an inch helped it clear. Added hose clamps.

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Took apart the passenger side footbox, got out the silicone and riveting tool and went to work. Since all the holes were in the right spots I was able to silicone and rivet in panels as I went along. Worked out pretty well. One thing I will say is the rivets they give you aren't very pretty (or maybe it's my rivet tool). I'm trying to decide if it bothers me enough to drill out and replace with nicer rivets in the more visible areas. I'm much more excited about how the car drives than the appearance of such things. I'm not putting it together to be a show car or work of art...it's going to be a driver. I do plan on painting the engine bay, so what kind of rivets used is probably not worth losing sleep over. Also started drilling for the new firewall forward received from FFMetal.com. (Well, I got Jasper started on it. Quality piece and I'm glad I got it. (Thanks for the recommendation!)

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BEND THE CHARCOAL BRACKET....... GENIUS !!!!!!! took me long time to find this excellent tip. Thank you.

[UKSNAKE]

Can you share any pictures of the rest of your fuel tank/ filter connections please?

[JMD]

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Here are a couple, I hope they help. I left an extra loop of fuel supply and return line so I can drop the gas tank without disconnecting the fuel lines. I thought that future me might appreciate it when and if he ever had to do so. In retrospect I might put the fuel filter elsewhere. I might still go back and move it when my body is off for paint. It should be reasonably accessible where it is, but I'm sure I could find a different spot that would make changing the fuel filter element easier. (Trying to make things as easy as possible for future me.)

Another thing I would probably do differently is eliminate as many 90 degree bends as possible. I think I only have two (one going into the fuel filter and another going into the Sniper EFI), but I've heard that a 90 degree bend is the equivalent to adding 3' of hose as far as pressure drop. So the fewer the better. And definitely make sure that any 90 degree bend is a wide radius bend, not a sharp angle fitting. I made that mistake of connecting a hard 90 to the Sniper and had to go back and fix it later.

[UKSNAKE]

Looks great. I like the idea of helping future me.

So you are running the braided flex the whole way to the front and back again or did you transition to hard lines anywhere?

Chris

[JMD]

I decided to use as few connections as possible to minimize potential failure points, so no hard lines. I ran one piece of braided flex from the fuel tank to the filter, another piece from the fuel filter along the outside the 4" tube and up into the engine bay and directly into the Sniper 2. (Go back and check out post #87.) It then exits the sniper, into the fuel pressure regulator, and then one long run in braided line back the way it came and all the way into the fuel tank.

[JMD]

Oil Change & Frame Touch Up

Performed my 1k mile oil change today (second time I've changed the oil in this engine). It was thankfully uneventful with the exception of misjudging where the oil pan should be positioned. I'm still not used to the force at which 6+ qts in an oil pan will flow out when given the chance. It hit the pan surface, but surged over the edge until I could get it moved further away. Bit of a mess, but what's an oil change without an oil mess to clean up??

The oil looked pretty good overall. Brown but not black. I had used the BP break in oil for the past two changes. Using their standard engine oil this time with one quart of break in oil for good measure.

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There was some metal on the drain plug magnet (which is a crazy strong magnet), but that's to be expected in the first 1k miles as the engine breaks in. Nothing excessive as far as I can tell.

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I also took the opportunity to touch up a scrape on my frame rail due to deep ruts in a rural road that I didn't see in time. The middle swell kissed the frame at 50mph. No real damage done, but it did scrape off the powder coating. I lightly sanded it, cleaned it, masked and sprayed on some underbody coating to keep it from rusting. I'm so glad no part of the engine hangs down below the frame rails!

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[gbranham]

Dang, dude! You've been logging the miles! I thought I was doing good, and I'm at 750. I'm going to do my first oil change and tranny fluid change in the next weekend or two. I read in the TKX guide that it should be done after the first 500-1000 miles. Gotta do the GT350 oil change, as well. 17 quarts between them. Sheesh!

Greg

[JMD]

Dang, dude! You've been logging the miles! I thought I was doing good, and I'm at 750. I'm going to do my first oil change and tranny fluid change in the next weekend or two. I read in the TKX guide that it should be done after the first 500-1000 miles. Gotta do the GT350 oil change, as well. 17 quarts between them. Sheesh!

You know all those times you drive the GT350 to events instead of the roadster? Well, I don't have a GT350 to distract me like you do.

[gbranham]

You know all those times you drive the GT350 to events instead of the roadster? Well, I don't have a GT350 to distract me like you do.

Fair point! I like my A/C in the summer!

[JMD]

Drove the roadster 115 miles yesterday, averaged about 18mpg. Mostly highway but some city driving. I'm guessing it's getting about 20mpg on the highway, not too shabby!

The Sniper learn table is now mostly in the 0-1 range with a couple spots correcting up to 2%, but I think at this point it's more dependent on driving variables than actual tuning. I've run it extensively in all different areas of the map, so I believe the fuel tuning is pretty much complete. I had an issue with it lean surging at idle after a heat soaked start and found a way to mitigate that with the tuning (raised idle rpm below operating temp, increase IAT fueling at high manifold temp, increased after start enrichment decay rate and reduced the closed loop compensation parameters around idle as it was overcorrecting and making the problem worse). I had to manually tune some parts of the map, but the learning has done a decent job with the majority of it. Reducing the learn parameters and base fuel learn gain as any further adjustments are going to be weather related, change with the seasons and don't necessarily need to be applied to the base table. Also creating an open loop version of the tune in case the O2 sensor goes bad. It should run fine in open loop if the fuel table is dialed in properly and I can upload that tune if an exhaust leak or faulty O2 is causing issues.

*Holley Sniper 2 tuning tech talk warning* One thing I've done that will help keep the Sniper from wacking out if there's a problem with the closed loop system is reduce the learn parameters for different parts of the map between 2-5%. I also reduced the closed loop compensation limits to +/-5% at idle and WOT and +/-15% everywhere else so faulty input data won't make it go crazy rich or lean. In some areas of the map and depending on driving conditions it will sometimes over compensate and hold on to bad data for the learn table. Such as around 2k rpm when you open the throttle real fast from 5% to 100% it will read so lean that the CL will add too much fuel and take a half second or so to pull it back out. It then interprets that as it needs more fuel at WOT at 2k rpm and less at 3500 when it's really pulling fuel because it gave it too much initially. This will lead to the base map being too rich at 2k rpm and too lean at 3500rpm. Also when you close the throttle on decel it will show rich and pull a lot of fuel, which is fine but it is always trying to pull fuel from those low kpa cells when it doesn't need to. Limiting the CL compensation in those areas helps keep it from doing that and ultimately leads to more accurate fueling.

[JMD]

Just dropped the car off to the painter a couple days ago. He's going to have it for a few months, but it's perfect timing as it's mostly going to be too cold to drive anyway. Can't wait for it to be ready in the Spring.

No pics...sorry...

[TrackDay17]

Can't wait to see it all painted and completed John, I'm sure it's going to look great !

[PMD24]

Congrats! Big milestone. Perfect timing for it to go to paint. I'm hoping to line mine up that way in late 26.

Pat

[gbranham]

Congrats, buddy. I'm jealous, and excited to see it finished.

Greg

[JMD]

Congrats, buddy. I'm jealous, and excited to see it finished.

Greg

Me too!!

[JMD]

Painter has adjusted and gapped the panels, as well as built up the door transition and other spots that needed some work. I now have the chassis back while he finishes body prep, then paint. Getting closer!
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[TrackDay17]

Looks like you'll have some color on it soon, looking forward to seeing the finished product and on the streets again this summer !

[JMD]

The car is back in my garage! (Well...most of it.)

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The body is with the painter as he is finishing up the prep, will paint the body off the car, then I'll take the chassis back for the body to be reinstalled. But that's a good thing because I have about 3 pages worth of 'to do' items before the body goes on for the last time. I've been able to get a good number of those items completed this week.

I changed the fluid in the TKX. I had Pennzoil Synchromesh in it to start, and replaced it with Mobil 1 ATF synthetic. The Pennzoil was fine, but it's always been harder to get into 3rd gear than I liked, so I'm changing the fluid to see what effect that has (if any). It shifts pretty nicely overall, but I've done a lot of reading and it seems like they prefer a thinner fluid because of the carbon synchros. Usually putting a better, thicker oil in a manual seems to make it shift smoother, but my research has led me to believe that in this newer transmission that can actually prevent the synchros from engaging properly and doing their job. Tremec specifically recommends the Mobil 1 ATF (it's thinner than synchromesh) and I've read a number of posts where other users really like the way it feels with that fluid...so giving it a shot. Took it for a very short drive in my neighborhood but wasn't enough to see if the fluid change made a difference. Pretty much felt the same, but I didn't drive it too hard so we will see.

The Pennzoil was originally a very light amber and has darkened quite a bit here. Doing it break-in thing, I guess. Not much in the way of metal streaking, and no chunks or flakes so I'm happy about that.

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I also used the #2 fan output on the Holley Sniper 2 to trigger a red light I installed on the dash. It can be programmed to come on at any temp. I'm using it as a warning light that will come on if coolant gets above 200 degrees. My normal operating temps are around 185-195 and this just gives me peace of mind that if something is getting hotter than usual it will catch my attention before it gets too serious. I programmed it to come on at 100 degrees to test, and it works!

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I also installed a dedicated manual switch for the radiator fan and a blue light to show me when the switch is on so I don't forget to turn it off. Don't know if I'll ever really need it, but would rather have it and not need it than the other way around. And wiring is so easy to modify with the body off that I would be kicking myself down the road if I didn't do it now. I put the switch under the dash just to keep it out of the way.

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Also started the process to swap my master cylinders from Wilwood to Tilton. Originally I had no plans to do so, but I needed different size MCs for my brakes anyway so thought why not. (Going from the FFR supplied 3/4" to 5/8". The 3/4" were extremely firm and I wasn't able to get the line pressure needed to brake the way I wanted to.) I'm replacing the clutch MC just for the heck of it. Maybe I'm a bit OCD and want them all to match. Changing MCs with the body on is something I hope I never have to do. Will have pics of all that up next week.

I hope everyone has a wonderful Easter weekend.

[JMD]

Radiator Protector

I really liked the way CV2065 protected his radiator, so ordered a piece of screen from the same vendor and used 3 bolts and slit some fuel hose I had lying around to cover the edges that might contact other metal. I had to drill 2 holes for the upper bolts, but that was about it. I could have had it all done in one evening but I wanted to use stainless hardware so had to make a trip to the local hardware store to get it, then finished up the install the next day. Easy peasy. It's not super finished looking yet, but I will do that after the body goes back on. Maybe install a spacer on the bottom bolt, trim the bottom edge back and put some weather stripping around it once my final bottom aluminum piece goes in. I didn't have any spacers except nylon and wasn't sure they would hold up to the heat, so I simply used a few stainless nuts to hold the screen away from the radiator.

I thought about buying it already powdercoated black (the vendor had some powdercoated scraps available), but think it would just show dirt and bugs more so left it natural aluminum like the radiator. No chips or scratches will show that way. I want to spend my time driving it, not cleaning it. I be smart.

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Waiting for some parts to finish up my master cylinder swap, will update when finished.

[cv2065]

Looks great!

[JMD]

Looks great!

Thanks! I’m really enjoying following your build. You’ve got quite a car taking shape there!

[JMD]

Brake Tuning

Ok, so I've been diving deep into the rabbit hole of brake maths. First of all, there are a couple of really good websites I want to share. I used many webpages to calculate many things, but these two were the most straightforward and helpful for me:

Joe's Master Cylinder Math - Good information, explanations, and math formulas.

Brakepower Bias Calculator - Great calculator for brake bias and behavior. Click on it and it will show my saved inputs from data I've gathered from my brake components and car. Remember, I'm using the Gordon Levy Wilwood brake kit that has smaller calipers and rotors than most Wilwood systems as they fit in my 15" wheels. Replace any of the data with your car's specs, hit 'calculate' and it will update for your specific situation. I think the target brake line pressures are generally a bit lower than I would want, but it's a great overall snapshot of what your brake system should be doing and what you need to adjust to get there.

I replaced my FFR supplied 3/4" brake MCs with Tilton 5/8" MCs, both front and rear. For my setup the dual 3/4" MCs were too large. The pedal was incredibly hard, had very little travel, and wouldn't even consider locking up front or rear no matter how hard I beat on them. So I went down a couple sizes. The bottom line is that it's great. A bit more pedal travel, but so much more stopping power. The good news is that I could now lock wheels, the bad news is that it was only the rear that would lock up. (Once I found that out I didn't try to stomp on it hard enough to lock the fronts as well.) So instead of doing a bunch of guessing, I bought a brake pressure gauge and took some measurements.

Front brakes:
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Rear brakes:
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The front brakes actually spiked to 1000psi on hard pedal application (the pic only shows 900). I took videos while applying the brake in different ways, and it consistently topped out right at 1000psi. Which is pretty darn good. I'm not bracing myself in the seat to apply them, just doing what I feel like I would normally do in the car while driving and wanting to stop fast. According to my calculations, this is basically me applying 100lbs of force to the pedal, which is then dividing it between the two MCs and applying ~50lbs to the front MC. With a pedal ratio of 6.25:1, I'm getting exactly what is shown here on the Wilwood chart:

Wilwood brake pressure chart.png

With the 5/8" MC I should see 2016 psi for every 100lbs on the pedal. I'm getting exactly half that by applying half the pressure. Checks out. The strange thing is that the rear brakes are getting close to 1100psi with the same size MC. Not sure why that is. Perhaps has something to do with the way the balance bar is adjusted (I thought I had it equal), or the fact that the rear piston area is much smaller than the front, which causes more rise in the pressure than in the front when additional pedal pressure is applied. Whatever the cause, that's the data.

The next step is to replace the rear MC (again) with a .70" MC. That should give me the target ~15% lower rear line pressure than the fronts that I need for my size calipers to achieve a roughly 68/32 dynamic brake balance. My math says I'm currently at about 60F/40R brake bias and the rears lock up too soon. (I calculated that using the above calculator, and my real experience and testing has verified the data so far. Also, I encourage you to read up on the difference between dynamic and static brake balance by clicking the question mark beside that field in the calculator. It's worth a look.) There is no magic number or ratio, but you basically want as much braking as you can get with the fronts locking up just before the rear. With my rears locking up just before my fronts regardless of how I adjust the balance bar, it's time for a different size MC.

I also adjusted the balance bar to see how that affected the rear brake pressure. I calculate that each turn of the balance bar changed the bias by 1.5%. I ran out of adjustment before getting the rear line pressure below the front, hence the change in MC. Once I get that on and get the line pressures in the right ballpark relative to each other, I can use the balance bar to fine tune which tires lock up first.

I should be able to get that done in the next day or two. Will post my results. In the mean time, if anyone wants a brand new Tilton 5/8" MC that's only been driven about 3 miles, hit me up.

[JMD]

Wrapping Up Brake Tuning

I changed the rear MC from 5/8" to 7/10". I've done so many MC swaps that I can have them done in about an hour and a half. Hopefully that skill will not be useful to me in the future...

With 5/8” front & rear MC and neutral balance bar had:
Rear pressure 1100 x 3 (caliper piston area) = 3,300
Front pressure 1000 x 4.8 (caliper piston area) = 4,800
Gave 59F/41R brake bias

With 5/8” front, 7/10” rear MC, neutral balance bar:
Rear pressure 900 x 3  = 2,700
Front pressure 1000 x 4.8  = 4,800
Gives 64F/36R brake bias

Even with the larger size MC in the rear I still wound up adjusting the balance bar 5 full turns toward the front brake to further reduce the rear line pressure to show about 850psi on a panic stop (65/35 final bias). This should keep the rear brakes from locking up, but I have yet to do my final testing. If they do still lock (I don't think they will), I can adjust the balance bar a little bit more and/or put in some brake pads with a bit less bite on the rear. But I think this puts me about where I want to be. The brake bias I calculated above is accurate given brake pads with same coefficient of friction. It can still be further adjusted with pad selection, if needed, but I didn't want that to be absolutely necessary. Swapping pads to achieve good brake behavior can often be a crutch for a badly designed system. I want it to balanced well enough that you're not choosing pads just to compensate for sub-optimal clamping force.

Here is the 1000psi reading for the front caliper:
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With everything in the ballpark I was aiming for, I flushed the whole system with a bottle of some good stop juice:
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Two notes:
1) Don't use the expensive brake fluid until you're fully happy with the braking system. I'm glad I didn't put in the good stuff until after I was finished swapping parts. The Valvoline or Prestone Dot 3/4 fluid you can buy anywhere is great for testing as it's ~$12/bottle. I probably went through three big ones with all the changes I made. It's actually fine for 99% of street driving as well. Upgraded fluid isn't really necessary until you start doing track stuff.
2) Testing brake lockup is SO much easier in go cart mode. You can see and hear the tires so well that you're not guessing as to what's going on. Do your testing with the body off, if at all possible.

[TrackDay17]

Jealous, you and Kirby's cars are going to be done for prime driving season this year !
I bought one of the Wilwood brake adjuster knobs just to make my life a little easier, still need to mount it.
I'm hoping the booster on my brakes won't make things too sensitive.

[Mike.Bray]

I bought one of the Wilwood brake adjuster knobs just to make my life a little easier, still need to mount it.

Install one of these to ease the cable routing.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/til-72-560

[cv2065]

Install one of these to ease the cable routing.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/til-72-560

I have one as well. At $93, Tilton is sure proud of that piece!

[TrackDay17]

Install one of these to ease the cable routing.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/til-72-560

Sigh, I guess I"ll add that to my list too.
I was trying to be stubborn and use the FF supplied Wilwood master cylinders, but I think I'll just do it all now and avoid the later inevitable headache for being stubborn.
It just kind of galls me to have to replace new parts, wouldn't be much of an issue if they were more accessible.

[cv2065]

It just kind of galls me to have to replace new parts, wouldn't be much of an issue if they were more accessible.

I guess you just have to remember that you are replacing all of these parts on the assumption that the kit supplied stuff is going to fail. Many have used the Wilwood stuff with no issues, including myself. As with any mechanical item, there’s always a chance of failure regardless of the brand.

[JMD]

Sigh, I guess I"ll add that to my list too.
I was trying to be stubborn and use the FF supplied Wilwood master cylinders, but I think I'll just do it all now and avoid the later inevitable headache for being stubborn.
It just kind of galls me to have to replace new parts, wouldn't be much of an issue if they were more accessible.

I wouldn’t say failure of the Wilwoods MCs is inevitable. I think there’s a much higher chance that they will be perfectly fine for the life of the car than failing…but the complete headache that it would be to replace once the body is on led me to go with a brand that I think is slightly better. I probably wouldn’t have swapped them out in the first place if I didn’t need to change the MC sizing for my brakes to work properly. One of my brand new Tiltons could also fail. There’s no certainty either way.

The list of parts I kept adding to my build did get much longer than I anticipated, as well. But it really is better to build it the way you want and with quality parts from the beginning than wish you had later on.

[TrackDay17]

I wouldn’t say failure of the Wilwoods MCs is inevitable. I think there’s a much higher chance that they will be perfectly fine for the life of the car than failing…but the complete headache that it would be to replace once the body is on led me to go with a brand that I think is slightly better. I probably wouldn’t have swapped them out in the first place if I didn’t need to change the MC sizing for my brakes to work properly. One of my brand new Tiltons could also fail. There’s no certainty either way.

The list of parts I kept adding to my build did get much longer than I anticipated, as well. But it really is better to build it the way you want and with quality parts from the beginning than wish you had later on.

John, I've added plenty to my build sheet by my own doing for sure, it happens when you read build threads and get new ideas !
I knew I would but I have jokingly nicknamed this project Cost Over Run !
I'd rather spend it now to get it like I want than to regret it and either live with it or do it over again.