Garcia Family Type 65 Coupe Build - Front Suspension
So I’m a little late to the party with this build thread.
We ordered the kit in April, had an engine / transmission package from Mike Forte sitting in our garage since July, the kit was delivered in September, and we’ve already completed inventory.
To get caught up here are the broad details:
Mechanically we’re not straying off the beaten path. Coyote & T56
We ordered a Complete kit and went down the list and checked off most of the boxes including IRS.
We left off wheels and seats, and will figure those out at a later date.
We all fell in love with the Carbon Fiber body at the open house, but had a feeling it was out of our price range even with factoring in the cost of prep and paint. FFR confirmed that recently when they announced the pricing. Sad times.
The interior will be mostly custom, not much from the kit will be used.
We will design and fabricate roll up windows. Not Forma Cars, not typical rollup, something mechanical and simple that still feels at home in a race car.
Probably some sort of exhaust modification tbd. After having been for a ride in one the noise level is a bit much for me. Also lots of sound deadening measures.
I’ll change my mind weekly on paint as most everyone does.
The goal is to have a finished car by the time my son graduates high school in 2-1/2 years. He’s going to a Vocational High School and focusing on Automotive Tech. A lot of this build will be my son and I, but will involve my wife and daughter as much as their abilities and interests allow.
My background is in design engineering, and fabrication. 12 years of that was in LA working on special effects for the entertainment industry, which involved some design engineering, some fabrication, some mechanical, and some electrical. Essentially all the elements involved in building a car, just without intentionally creating fireballs. For a period of time I also owned a company that specialized in design and fabrication of stainless parts, and I still have a TIG welder in my garage. I also have access to a lot of sheet metal and fabrication tools at my current job including a CNC laser, CNC routers, CNC bending brake, etc. So needless to say there will be custom parts.
I’m also keeping a blog to update friends and family as none of them will be interested in reading this forum. It will stay at a high level so as not to bore them with “Look! I bolted this thing to this other thing!”. However, I’ll jump on the forum here for the technical challenges we are sure to encounter.
Probably some sort of exhaust modification tbd. After having been for a ride in one the noise level is a bit much for me. Also lots of sound deadening measures.
Congratulations on your kit delivery and upcoming adventure. Do what you can with noise level. Agree it's a little crazy with these. It's possible to mitigate some but it's going to be excessively loud no matter what. Resign yourself to ear protection and it's 100% manageable. I use Sony noise cancellation ear buds. They work great. My wife prefers regular ear plugs. I keep a pack of ear plugs in the car for guests.
Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread. Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023. Build 6: Mk5 Roadster 30th Anniversary #11,258. Build Thread.
Congratulations on your kit delivery and upcoming adventure. Do what you can with noise level. Agree it's a little crazy with these. It's possible to mitigate some but it's going to be excessively loud no matter what. Resign yourself to ear protection and it's 100% manageable. I use Sony noise cancellation ear buds. They work great. My wife prefers regular ear plugs. I keep a pack of ear plugs in the car for guests.
Thanks Paul,
I am assuming that we'll still need hearing protection, I'm used to that from my years riding motorcycles. It was mostly the wind noise that bothered me in that case, you really can't hear the exhaust at speed.
We've also been exploring in car communication systems, but in order to be street legal the driver could only have one ear covered which wouldn't really help with the noise. Or I cover both ears and hope we don't get pulled over... probably not a great idea.
I've seen a lot of great suggestions on this forum for mitigating sound issues, and have been contemplating them all. Just not sure yet which of those we'll try.
Congrats! I'm excited to follow along. Your build plan mentioned a roll up window option. The plexi windows in this Galaxie 500 are pretty slick. Go up and down with a pull strap and fasten with buttons. I thought it was pretty simple and clever.
Congrats! I'm excited to follow along. Your build plan mentioned a roll up window option. The plexi windows in this Galaxie 500 are pretty slick. Go up and down with a pull strap and fasten with buttons. I thought it was pretty simple and clever.
Exactly!! I like the double strap approach because one of my concerns with this method was the stretch / sag in the strap and not fully seating against the top. The frameless design is nice too, but I think it will be easier to keep everything aligned and sealed if I build it with a frame.
Also, that is a gorgeous build. Some of those details are kind of what I imagine in my head until the realities of a budget set in.
We submitted our "Missing in Kit" List to Brent at FFR and he was quick to respond. There were a few missing nuts and bolts but the biggest thing was a couple pieces of cockpit aluminum. It looked strange to me when it was delivered but I just convinced myself that it must be in one of the boxes. This doesn't slow us down as we're already moving at a glacial pace, but FFR will send those out with a few other missing items.
It's the outside panels behind the seats, both driver and passenger.
Welcome aboard, Garcias! Will be a fantastic project for you all. High five on the drivetrain choice, but maybe I'm just partial. What a great background of experience and skills for a build. Looking forward to following along. This will be fun.
Chris Coupe complete kit.Index. Delivered: 4/22/24. Build Thread. Coyote Gen 4X. T-56. IRS w/3.55. Wilwoods. PS. HVAC. Side windows. MK4 Complete kit. Build Thread Index. Delivered: 10/15/2020. Legal: 7/25/23. Coyote Gen3. TKO600 (0.64 OD). IRS w/3.55. PS. Wilwoods. Sway bars. This build is dedicated to my son, Benjamin. Build Thread.
The good news is, those panels don't actually go back into the cockpit until after the body is on for the final time. So, in the case of missing pieces, those are at the front of the "not needed for awhile" line.
The good news is, those panels don't actually go back into the cockpit until after the body is on for the final time. So, in the case of missing pieces, those are at the front of the "not needed for awhile" line.
Thanks for that clarification! That is what I had understood, but it's good to hear it from someone else. I also saw in Paul's build thread he masked off where some of those "install later" panels go and then sprayed lizard skin. We'll see when it gets to that point but I may have more questions.
It is early to be working on the Coyote, but there is a reason.
We are contemplating custom headers, which goes back to my comment about noise mitigation. The engine will need to be dropped in to figure out routing and clearances.
My background as a certified welder in SS will come in handy here, and it's not new territory as I've built custom SS motorcycle exhausts in the past.
My wife and son got involved in removing the bonus "Throw away" Header that Ford so kindly provides, along with the flywheel.
We have Forte's lifting brackets, and while I understand they're too wide for the actual install they will work fine for now. My only hesitation using these was bolting a rough piece of hot rolled steel up against a nice machined surface on the block. I know others have done this and it didn't seem to present any problems, but I have a tendency to overdue things. And now seems as good a moment as any to start overdoing things! I had some scrap 1/8" 5052 aluminum and made some square shims to go between the brackets and the block.
Did this help? I have no idea.
Did it make me feel better? Absolutely!
For reference we used the lower header studs on the driver side front, and passenger side rear.
As an update for anyone else using Fortes brackets on a Coyote. This wasn't a balanced lift but we also didn't have the flywheel on which would make a difference.
We adjusted a little and still used the lower header studs on both sides. Driver's side front most stud, however we moved the passenger side one stud forward from the back.
This worked fine for now, but we will definitely be either getting or fabricating brackets to use the recommended lifting points for install.
I've used a couple different lifting brackets for Coyote installations. Ones that I made (marginal...) and ones from TD Motion. The Coyote is a tight fit (no surprise) and both factory lifting locations can interfere with the frame. Plus the effort necessary to balance. Another forum member suggested I try a manifold lift plate which I did for my Mk5 build. Couldn't be easier and I highly recommend. Google "Coyote manifold lift plate" and you'll find a number of sources. For roughly the same price as purchased lift brackets. The one I used was from MMR but there are others. I was initially hesitant to remove the intake, but it's no big deal. This picture is installed on my Aluminator. Wish I had taken another as we dropped it in. But got too excited and forgot.
Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread. Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023. Build 6: Mk5 Roadster 30th Anniversary #11,258. Build Thread.
I got my lift plate from summit it was very reasonable at like $79.00 … what I like about it is that it has 3 lifting hole positions to kinda get the right angle for engine instal IMG_0120.jpgIMG_0119.jpg
I got my lift plate from summit it was very reasonable at like $79.00 … what I like about it is that it has 3 lifting hole positions to kinda get the right angle for engine instal IMG_0120.jpgIMG_0119.jpg
That is really nice! I found it on Summit and will add that to my buy later list which is getting really long.
Someone mentioned that other forum members are really good at spending your money. It's true, not that I'm complaining.
That will make me happy when it comes time to drop the engine in.
Not a lot to report here. We got the Coyote on a stand using Forte's brackets which worked fine for the purpose.
Maybe later this week or this weekend we'll drop the stock oil pan and install the Moroso pan. Along w/ the oil filter and other minor modifications.
We also put the Coupe on a simple dolly so we could roll it out of the garage because it's time to take the roof top tent off the truck for winter.
We just have one of those pully systems for the tent but it's directly over where the Coupe lives.
There is a plan to build a better dolly because wheeling it in and out of the garage may be a common occurrence for a while, and I don't know how long it will be before we have a rolling chassis.
Pay no attention to the ropes, my daughter really is that strong
Looks good. I also built a dolly and honestly, what your have is more than sufficient for the car until you put wheels and tires on it and an engine in it. I used mine quite a bit in the beginning, then put my car on jack stands for a while so I could work under and around unimpeded. It's now on a lift so I doubt I will ever use the dolly again but for what I used it for it was more than adequate and very similar to yours.
That's pretty cool you found a new Gen 3 Coyote. I searched about 1.5 years ago, and they were more than scarce back then. So, I had to go with a Gen 4.
Chris Coupe complete kit.Index. Delivered: 4/22/24. Build Thread. Coyote Gen 4X. T-56. IRS w/3.55. Wilwoods. PS. HVAC. Side windows. MK4 Complete kit. Build Thread Index. Delivered: 10/15/2020. Legal: 7/25/23. Coyote Gen3. TKO600 (0.64 OD). IRS w/3.55. PS. Wilwoods. Sway bars. This build is dedicated to my son, Benjamin. Build Thread.
That's pretty cool you found a new Gen 3 Coyote. I searched about 1.5 years ago, and they were more than scarce back then. So, I had to go with a Gen 4.
Yeah, I was pretty happy about that. Not that there's anything wrong with the Gen 4, I just didn't want to be one of the first to test that out. There were enough Gen 3 builds that it felt like a safe option.
When I first started talking to Mike Forte, he had recently bought a bunch of Gen 3 Coyote's in the anticipation of the transition to Gen 4. I saw them sitting in his warehouse and asked if he would put my name on one of those in exchange for bunch of money.
So the Garcia's are still here, we just got sidelined for a bit with an injury, an illness, travel, and the holidays. I have bunch of time off starting next week so we have plans to make some progress on the Coupe. We're excited!!
In the meantime, I've been contemplating exhaust design. This falls under the category of "Not necessary, but it makes Jon happy". Feel free to roll your eyes at this nonsense, I'm not easily offended.
The reasons:
- Mellow out the sound.
- I just like the idea of having Cats even though almost everyone builds without them.
- It will make the build that much more uniquely ours... if we can pull it off.
The considerations:
- It appears that the Coyote uses an O2 sensor both before and after the CAT. Can anyone confirm that we should do the same?
- Clearance everywhere. Attached is a simple 2D schematic, until we start arranging the components in 3D space it's hard to know if all this will fit.
- I don't want too many bolted connections, but we still need to be able to get these parts in and out of the frame. TBD.
- Heat shielding for the Cats so we don't accidentally bake something else.
- Hangers or support for the whole system
- The battery will need to be relocated, probably to the trunk.
I have concerns about clearing the accessory drives on the front of the engine, but it's really hard to visualize until everything is in place.
Anyway, I'd love your feedback whether good or bad. I have thick skin.
Just a few comments. Coyote crate motors only use two of the four 02 sensors. Looking at your drawing (which is pretty neat BTW), your forward pipes are going to be well into the front suspension framework as drawn. As far as engine interference goes, I am thinking the AC compressor and alternator will be a challenge. Both are up front and low, right and left respectively. Looking forward to what you develop.
Just a few comments. Coyote crate motors only use two of the four 02 sensors. Looking at your drawing (which is pretty neat BTW), your forward pipes are going to be well into the front suspension framework as drawn. As far as engine interference goes, I am thinking the AC compressor and alternator will be a challenge. Both are up front and low, right and left respectively. Looking forward to what you develop.
Thanks for the input! Do you happen to know if those two O2 sensors would need to go before or after the Cats?
Yeah, the drawing is just flat so it's not a great representation. I was imagining some of those bends would be oriented up/down as opposed to being side to side as drawn. Regardless once we drop the motor in for a test fit it should become apparent how little room there is.
In my dream scenario, I'd have butterfly valves that when open direct the exhaust down the side pipes and when closed sends it through cats and mufflers. So you could change from civilized to rambunctious with the push of a button.
Unfortunately, I don't have the skill or know-how to pull that off
In my dream scenario, I'd have butterfly valves that when open direct the exhaust down the side pipes and when closed sends it through cats and mufflers. So you could change from civilized to rambunctious with the push of a button.
Unfortunately, I don't have the skill or know-how to pull that off
I love the idea of a bypass valve, and had contemplated that early on but I think that's even more real estate that would be difficult to find.
That doesn't mean we won't look into it some more because now is the time, and I'm happy to contemplate all ideas regardless of such ridiculous constraints like time, money, and physical space
Speaking of ideas that will probably make my life more difficult, at one point in the thought process we had contemplated creating our own fiberglass shells for seats to specifically fit the constraints of the Coupe.
My wife told me to stop, and just buy something that's close enough. Besides which, after factoring in the cost of the polyurethane carving foam, fiberglass cloth, resin, custom upholstery, etc. it would be significantly more expense than buying a seat. Especially because we would have to send out the seat shells for upholstery. That is beyond our skillsets.
My wife told me to stop, and just buy something that's close enough.
Wise lady
If left to our own devices, we'd customize and remake every part of the car. Our kids will have become adults and our pocket books empty when all said and done.
That being said. the angles of the rear cockpit wall really do waste a bunch of space behind my seats. Custom seats would be nice, ha
I am also not going to be a good influence here, I like diving down rabbit holes. You should make some of these if you have a 3D printer, it will help a lot when laying things out. I am also planning on adding CATs for mine and custom heated and cooled seats.
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Originally Posted by JTG
What a great background of experience and skills for a build. Looking forward to following along. This will be fun.
