BluePrint versus Coyote

[nashuanuke]

Hey all, I'm getting ready to make my order on a MKIV and am still struggling with engine choice. I have watched the Factory Five Engine Options video enough times that I'm certain I've skewed their youtube stats. It's excellent but I still have questions and am seeking your expert opinions and advice. I'm on the fence over a BluePrint 306 (possibly 347), with EFI versus a Gen III Coyote, most likely sourced from Forte or something similar. I can afford either option, but savings is still a minor factor. I don't mind the looks. I am a novice, I do intend to go to the build school, but that is a more important factor for me. Here are my real questions:

1. Ease of build? I am under the impression that installing the BluePrints would be simpler (smaller size, less complexity in the wiring, etc.), but what I don't know is how much simpler than a Coyote is it? A lot, a little, or is it negligible, or actually easier?

2. With the Coyote, it sounds like it's either necessary or highly recommended to do power steering, is that a fair assumption? How about with the BluePrints? Same question for hydraulic clutch.

3. Ease of maintenance. The tradoff it seems is a well installed Coyote is nigh indestructible, while the BluePrints would require additional care due to their older design (acknowledging their warranty and overall quality, I know they watch this site. I guess my biggest question is which is the better trade-off? Easier to install BluePrint or easier to maintain Coyote? What are your thoughts, or please correct my impressions if I'm wrong.

4. On the 306 versus 347, other than cost and horsepower, are there other major differences I should be aware of? It sounds like the 427s can be a bear to maintain/drive, what are your thoughts on the 347? Is it not much different than the 306, somewhere in between?

5. I guess while I'm asking: Folks seem to think the IRS option is worth it, in a similar vein to the above, how much more difficult is installing IRS than the 3 link? Is that then general suggestion?

[Presto51]

Grasshopper, like all things in life, to know/seek direction, knowledge, one first must know what type of driving you are going to do, with your project. Then your guidance will be more defined

Ron

[CaptB]

Talk w/Mike Forte you will get the same quality at a lower price.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Hey all, I'm getting ready to make my order on a MKIV and am still struggling with engine choice. I have watched the Factory Five Engine Options video enough times that I'm certain I've skewed their youtube stats. It's excellent but I still have questions and am seeking your expert opinions and advice. I'm on the fence over a BluePrint 306 (possibly 347), with EFI versus a Gen III Coyote, most likely sourced from Forte or something similar. I can afford either option, but savings is still a minor factor. I don't mind the looks. I am a novice, I do intend to go to the build school, but that is a more important factor for me. Here are my real questions:

1. Ease of build? I am under the impression that installing the BluePrints would be simpler (smaller size, less complexity in the wiring, etc.), but what I don't know is how much simpler than a Coyote is it? A lot, a little, or is it negligible, or actually easier?

Coyote wiring complexity is a fallacy. You have to marry a half dozen wires from the Ford control pack to the Ron Francis harness---starter request, fuel pump relay, ignition relay, hot at all times, malfunction indicator light and ground. Everything in the Ford Harness is plug & play and "idiot proof" (meaning the connectors will only go together one way)

2. With the Coyote, it sounds like it's either necessary or highly recommended to do power steering, is that a fair assumption? How about with the BluePrints? Same question for hydraulic clutch.

Power steering with ANY engine is a must have in my opinion. Coyotes and Windsors can both be done with either a cable operated clutch, a hydraulic slave cylinder clutch or a hydraulic throw out bearing

3. Ease of maintenance. The tradoff it seems is a well installed Coyote is nigh indestructible, while the BluePrints would require additional care due to their older design (acknowledging their warranty and overall quality, I know they watch this site. I guess my biggest question is which is the better trade-off? Easier to install BluePrint or easier to maintain Coyote? What are your thoughts, or please correct my impressions if I'm wrong.

A well and properly built Windsor doesn't require any more routine maintenance than a Coyote

4. On the 306 versus 347, other than cost and horsepower, are there other major differences I should be aware of? It sounds like the 427s can be a bear to maintain/drive, what are your thoughts on the 347? Is it not much different than the 306, somewhere in between?

347 will be no more difficult to install or live with than a 302/306

5. I guess while I'm asking: Folks seem to think the IRS option is worth it, in a similar vein to the above, how much more difficult is installing IRS than the 3 link? Is that then general suggestion?

Not significantly more difficult to install IRS vs. 3 link. More money BUT if you buy a straight axle through FFR/Moser rather than sourcing and building your own that cost margin narrows dramatically. You'll get no argument that IRS is a more supple ride, but that's not to say that the 3 link is bad.

Jeff

[Blitzboy54]

I used to track motorcycles and had the most fun with a smaller bike with big brakes, so for me I wanted a similar experience with the car. I chose a 306 for that reason (370 at the crank). I find it to be very drivable and the heat isn't bad at all. By modern build standards around here it's underpowered. I also have it geared with daily driving in mind. Having said all that there was a young fella in a WRX that wanted to go at a stop light on a straight road. In a burst of immaturity I obliged him and it wasn't close.

Like Presto51 said it really depends on you. I like to keep it under control but if I was to do it again I would probably add more power. I might even (ducks under a desk) go with an LS.

[nashuanuke]

Just what I’m looking for. So on the engine it sounds like I’m worrying about the wrong things, which is perfect feedback, and kind of what I was looking for. Thanks a lot.

[Bob Cowan]

Driveability of any engine - 289 to 427 - all depends on the build. EFI, electronic ignition, moderate combustion, and a mild cam makes for a fun engine that's easy to drive, no matter the displacement. When you start getting radical is when they need additional maintenance, and have a decreased life span.

A well built 427W will easily last 100K miles with nothing but routine maintenance once a year or so.

The IRS is a little bit more complicated. The installation is a breeze. But the alignment will take some practice. Well worth it, though. I wouldn't buy or build a roadster without it.

[NiceGuyEddie]

My comments:

I've had both a 306 and a 347 in exactly the same car. The 0-60mph time will be about the same on street tires but the 347 is a wild difference in acceleration after you are moving - say from going from 30mph to 100mph or even to 130mph.

The first time I saw a dyno sheet of a Coyote I thought it was a 347 Stroker - I could not believe how early the torque kicks in and how relatively flat the curve was.

My Superformance has a 525hp 427 (Small Block) and I can't tell the difference compared to the Factory Five with the 347 which is about 425 horsepower. (The gearing is about the same.)

Some people have reported spending almost $1,000 for alignment with cars with IRS so look out for that.

If I were to build another car, I would love to have a clean-burning Coyote, but I'd never do that before I first spent money on goodies such as IRS and D/A Coilovers.

[Hoooper]

I know this will get some hate around here but when it comes to power steering, be honest with yourself about how old and fit you are. The average age of owners here is not all that close to the peak age for male physical performance. Many members on this board report that turning in a parking lot with manual steering is almost impossible, while others with manual steering on sticky tires and more caster seem to not even notice that its manual steering. The difference between those two is not the car, although seat positioning definitely can contribute. Age ranges and fitness levels range DRASTICALLY around here. If you are getting up there in age or are of average American fitness you need to consider how manual steering might negatively impact your driving experience not just now, but in 10 years if you plan to still be driving it then. There are some actual benefits to being able to crank up caster with power steering, but the difference in effort is certainly the factor driving that decision for most here.

I dont see any difference needing PS between 306/347/coyote, there isnt going to be a huge difference in weight on the front tires between those options.

[mmklaxer]

I knew NOTHING about automotive wiring, and the coyote was very easy to install. Just follow the instructions, and pay attention to the wiring diagrams. One bite at a time.

[nashuanuke]

I wondered about this, I'm in decent shape in my 40s and figure I could get by with manual steering (hell BMWs had manual steering until just a decade ago), but then again I won't always be.

[Lidodrip]

I wondered about this, I'm in decent shape in my 40s and figure I could get by with manual steering (hell BMWs had manual steering until just a decade ago), but then again I won't always be.

The power steering advantage is related to being able to run more caster and improving handling, not about effort. There are lots of threads that talk about this, including testimonials from those who had both setups.

[rich grsc]

The power steering advantage is related to being able to run more caster and improving handling, not about effort. There are lots of threads that talk about this, including testimonials from those who had both setups.

This is the truth about power steering. Much easier and comfortable to drive, better handling

[Hoooper]

The power steering advantage is related to being able to run more caster and improving handling, not about effort. There are lots of threads that talk about this, including testimonials from those who had both setups.

It does come down to effort in the end. There is nothing in the power steering geometry that allows for running more caster than in a manual steering car other than that the manual steering effort to run +8 caster is unreasonably high.

[edwardb]

It does come down to effort in the end. There is nothing in the power steering geometry that allows for running more caster than in a manual steering car other than that the manual steering effort to run +8 caster is unreasonably high.

Technically, you're correct in a backwards kind of way. But you're actually making the argument for power steering. Taken in order, a car with 7-8 degrees of caster just plain drives better then one with 3 (the manual steering recommendation by Factory Five). Full stop. That's the main point as several have pointed out. I've had both and will not build without it. The difference is dramatic. I point this out (along with my buddy Jeff K) every time this discussion comes up and guys say they're fit, young, strong, didn't have it back in the day, etc. so don't need power steering. The starting point is the increased caster and how it makes the car drive. The fact that it takes boost to make 7-8 degrees of caster manageable is secondary. Your post about many of us promoting PS because of age, fitness, etc. is mildly offensive. It's about what makes the best driving car. So I routinely recommend it for that reason. Sure, PS is nice in the parking lot and going in and out of the garage. But that's not the main point.

Frankly, this debate about PS is kind of wearing me out. The same points have been made over and over yet the questions still get asked. Thinking about getting off the soapbox on this one and just spend the time cruising in my nice PS assisted builds.

[Hoooper]

I didn't make an argument for or against power steering, nor did I suggest that it's promoted by its supporters because of their age or fitness. I suggested that he consider his own age and fitness before making the decision, in other words manual steering may not be appropriate for him regardless of whether he thinks he wants manual or the geometry benefits of PS. Sorry if it offends you but the reality is 99% of us on here are old enough that we're only consistently getting less fit every day and for most on here that is something that really should be considered to make the build more enjoyable over the long run.

[Andrew Davis]

The only thing I would add about 347 vs coyote is that the coyote requires 2nd party tuning for the ECU. This will add to the cost of the install. Not sure how much it will add, but should be considered

[michael everson]

Everyone I know that drives a Coyote powered FFR says the same thing. WOW. I will never go back.
Mike

[MB750]

I used to track motorcycles and had the most fun with a smaller bike with big brakes, so for me I wanted a similar experience with the car. I chose a 306 for that reason (370 at the crank). I find it to be very drivable and the heat isn't bad at all. By modern build standards around here it's underpowered. I also have it geared with daily driving in mind. Having said all that there was a young fella in a WRX that wanted to go at a stop light on a straight road. In a burst of immaturity I obliged him and it wasn't close.

This is good info for me. My build is similar, with similar predicted power. Good to know I'll be able to smoke the 2009 WRX I used to own years ago. That thing was snappy.

[Mike.Bray]

A car that drives straight down the road and is overall easy to steer with power steering is going to be a lot easier to sell one day than one that's twitchy and requires Schwarzenegger-arms to park.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Thanks Paul! Let me summarize---It's not because we're old and too weak to park a car with 3 degrees of caster and manual steering, it's because we're too weak to park one with 8 degrees of caster and manual steering. Why then would you want to go with 8 degrees of caster you ask? Because the car will drive sooooooo much better going down the road! But if you've not ever tried it you wouldn't know that

Jeff

[BradCraig]

The Coyote is simply awesome as far as performance and sound. Plug and play....go drive. Starts every time.

[first time builder]

I see a Cobra and say NICE but if I look under hood and see a Comb over or Coyote I say to bad doesnt look anything like it should. (originaly) But thats me its your car build it the way you want.
But either way you go check out Mike Forte His prices are better than Blueprint and he can set you up either way and his service cant be beat.

[k-roy]

To simplify the answer the question about which engine is the best -- The best engine is the one in front of you while driving. If you put a 302, 347, 427, coyote or heaven forbid an LS, you will still be grinning ear to ear while driving it.

OR, you can just do things like many on this forum. Why build just one?

[History350]

I personally had a bad experience with a 347 blueprint engine, I bought the last one from Jegs.com (not that it matters) and this thing shook like you were in blender. Never could get it to run right no matter what I tried. I even sent it back to the factory they couldn't figure it out. So I'd say if you got the means for the coyote then do it. Old shakey small block with uneven power band cannot compare to new stuff in my opinion.

[nucjd19]

I'll chime in on the BPE 347 discussion. I picked up their 347 carb package with the TKO600. It came WAY before my complete build came. Crated great and had a great set of complimentary instructions to the Manual and Ron frances addendum for wiring. I chose the 347 for a few reasons. First, I just wonted a more trad look in my engine bay than the Coyote. Second, I wanted that SBF engine sound. Third was value, I had to cut off the price somewhere and I thought this would give me the best bang for buck power wise and weight wise being lighter than a 427. As for install and driving. Dropped in like it was meant for the car and wiring ws beyond easy with the instructions from FFR and BPE. Fired right up and came to idle with no problems. Mine has be problem free (knock on wood) and I have about 2000 miles on it so far. Way more power than I will ever need and is a freaking Torque monster being a stroker. Would I do it again???? For a first build you bet!!!! But now that I have done it I would be interested in a Coyote for something different. So in hindsight I fretted over this decision but really glad I split the diference with the 347. She has been really good to me

[GoDadGo]

You can come over to The Dark Side if you want to complicate your life.

All kidding aside, if you don't have an engine preference, flip a coin and pick between the modern Coyote power or traditional push rod SBF and all will be right with the world. An LS would work very well and look nice too

https://youtu.be/9WEe6-wdNtA

The cool thing about building these cars is you get to build your dream.

[gbranham]

The only thing I would add about 347 vs coyote is that the coyote requires 2nd party tuning for the ECU. This will add to the cost of the install. Not sure how much it will add, but should be considered

Help me understand why a tune is necessary. I plan to buy the FMS 'power module', which comes with the ECU, engine and trans. If I leave everything as-is with the power module, why would it need a new tune?

[k-roy]

Biggest reason as far as I understand it, is different air intake. Coyote comes with a cold air intake made for the mustangs, that just won't fit in our cars. Different air flow means the coyote ECU believes a different amount of air is going in, so it will run rich/lean.

[edwardb]

Biggest reason as far as I understand it, is different air intake. Coyote comes with a cold air intake made for the mustangs, that just won't fit in our cars. Different air flow means the coyote ECU believes a different amount of air is going in, so it will run rich/lean.

That's it. For both of the Coyotes I've had tuned (Gen 2 and Gen 3) Lund told me a high percentage of what they did was adjust the MAF sensor calibration since the stock air box wasn't used. That's what Ford has it tuned for. There are other things to tweak of course. But that's the biggest factor. Lund has basically doubled their prices since the last one I did. I've used them three times. Once for a buddy and twice for me. They do a good job and know these engines and builds. But if you can find a local tuner who knows what they're doing, likely will be more cost effective. But consider a custom tune mandatory for a Gen 3 Coyote build. My Coupe was not driveable on the base tune. It started and go-karted OK. But once real driving started, it was a mess. Now perfect and we love it.

[gbranham]

That's it. For both of the Coyotes I've had tuned (Gen 2 and Gen 3) Lund told me a high percentage of what they did was adjust the MAF sensor calibration since the stock air box wasn't used. That's what Ford has it tuned for. There are other things to tweak of course. But that's the biggest factor. Lund has basically doubled their prices since the last one I did. I've used them three times. Once for a buddy and twice for me. They do a good job and know these engines and builds. But if you can find a local tuner who knows what they're doing, likely will be more cost effective. But consider a custom tune mandatory for a Gen 3 Coyote build. My Coupe was not driveable on the base tune. It started and go-karted OK. But once real driving started, it was a mess. Now perfect and we love it.

Awesome info. Thanks, gents!