Solid Axle or IRS, which is better?

[JohnK]

Mike, it's definitely early days both for electric vehicles and (more importantly) for electric vehicle charging infrastructure. Not denying that there's work to be done there. Some (most notably those whose pockets get filled by lobbyists from big oil) seem to be using the fact that we need to build the charging infrastructure as an argument against electric vehicles, as if the expectation was that these charging stations would somehow just spring up organically overnight and the fact that we have to spend money to build them means we shouldn't do it. Imagine if, in the early days of gas powered cars, people had just said "There's no gas stations. Just F*&% the whole thing! Not worth it."

[NAZ]

Great Scott, this is the answer.

Mr Fusion.jpg

[Mike.Bray]

Mike, it's definitely early days both for electric vehicles and (more importantly) for electric vehicle charging infrastructure. Not denying that there's work to be done there. Some (most notably those whose pockets get filled by lobbyists from big oil) seem to be using the fact that we need to build the charging infrastructure as an argument against electric vehicles, as if the expectation was that these charging stations would somehow just spring up organically overnight and the fact that we have to spend money to build them means we shouldn't do it. Imagine if, in the early days of gas powered cars, people had just said "There's no gas stations. Just F*&% the whole thing! Not worth it."

Not saying it can't be done at all. But to get the charging stations and the infrastructure behind them by 2035 (GM's schedule) isn't going to happen. What Toyota is saying is a conversion from ICE to electric realistically requires huge technological advances, huge investment, and more time than is being put out there. I don't think it will happen in my lifetime so I'm continuing with my Cobra build!

[JohnK]

Since we've gone totally off topic here...

One major point to consider is that the primary means by which people will charge their EV's is at home. Adding a NEMA 6-50 or NEMA 14-50 outlet in your garage or carport is trivially simple compared to building gas stations. At-home charging will cover >90% of the driving that people typically do. In our case, we're replacing one of our cars with an EV, and that will be used for all around-town driving and day trips, which will be the vast majority of our driving. We'll keep the SUV for now for hauling big stuff around, towing, and longer trips but that's a small fraction of the type of driving we do.

Additionally, new charging stations are springing up around here seemingly every day. Every public parking lot and many large business parking lots have multiple charging stations. These typically take a week or two to install. Compare that to how long it takes to build a gas station. I'm not trying to trivialize the effort involved in building out a robust charging infrastructure, but IMO it's already happening (at least here in CA) at a pretty fast pace. I can easily drive from SF to LA in an EV today in roughly the same amount of time it would take me in a gas powered car.

[J R Jones]

Since we've gone totally off topic here...

One major point to consider is that the primary means by which people will charge their EV's is at home. Adding a NEMA 6-50 or NEMA 14-50 outlet in your garage or carport is trivially simple compared to building gas stations. At-home charging will cover >90% of the driving that people typically do. In our case, we're replacing one of our cars with an EV, and that will be used for all around-town driving and day trips, which will be the vast majority of our driving. We'll keep the SUV for now for hauling big stuff around, towing, and longer trips but that's a small fraction of the type of driving we do.

Additionally, new charging stations are springing up around here seemingly every day. Every public parking lot and many large business parking lots have multiple charging stations. These typically take a week or two to install. Compare that to how long it takes to build a gas station. I'm not trying to trivialize the effort involved in building out a robust charging infrastructure, but IMO it's already happening (at least here in CA) at a pretty fast pace. I can easily drive from SF to LA in an EV today in roughly the same amount of time it would take me in a gas powered car.

There is always someone willing to gore the ox, or something like that. How much progress has been made in this country on high speed rail? HSR systems work better in Asia than low speed rail does here, with no RXR-highway intersections!
There was an invested program for high speed rail industry and implementation here in WI but the Government at the time nixed it. The irony is SE WI history in the early 20th century. We had an electric rail network extending N, S, and W into the suburbs from Milwaukee but abandoned and divested the system in favor of (gas) automobiles and eventually freeways that do not function in rush hour. Brilliant.
jim

[Chainsaw]

Electric cars. Toyota and Volkswagen are neck and neck for worlds largest car company. Volkswagen did it by purchasing other companies and currently owns 12 brands while Toyota built up on their own and currently owns four brands. It's safe to say Toyota know a thing or two about cars. Toyota was among the first to introduce gas-electric hybrid cars into the market, with the Prius twenty years ago. It hasn’t been afraid to change the car game. All of this is to point out that Toyota understands both the car market and the infrastructure that supports it perhaps better than any other manufacturer on the planet.

When Toyota offers an opinion on the car market, it’s probably worth listening to. Last week, Toyota reiterated an opinion it has offered before. That opinion is straightforward: The world is not yet ready to support a fully electric auto fleet.

Toyota’s head of energy and environmental research Robert Wimmer testified before the Senate and said: “If we are to make dramatic progress in electrification, it will require overcoming tremendous challenges, including refueling infrastructure, battery availability, consumer acceptance, and affordability.” Those necessities are far from being available today. Wimmer noted that while manufactures have announced ambitious goals, just 2% of the world’s cars are electric at this point. For price, range, infrastructure, affordability, and other reasons, buyers continue to choose ICE over electric, and that’s even when electric engines are often subsidized with tax breaks to bring price tags down.

Toyota warns that the grid and infrastructure simply aren’t there to support the electrification of the private car fleet. A 2017 U.S. government study found that we would need about 8,500 strategically-placed charge stations to support a fleet of just 7 million electric cars. That’s about six times the current number of electric cars but no one is talking about supporting just 7 million cars. Simply put, we’re gonna need a LOT bigger energy boat to deal with connecting all those cars to the power grids.

We will need much more generation capacity to power about 300 million cars if we’re all going to be forced to drive electric cars. Whether we’re charging them at home or charging them on the road, we will be charging them frequently. Every gas station you see on the roadside today will have to be wired to charge electric cars, and charge speeds will have to be greatly increased. That power, like all electricity in the United States, comes from generators using natural gas, petroleum, coal, nuclear, wind, solar, or hydroelectric power according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration.

Electrifying the auto fleet will require a massive overhaul of the power grid and an enormous increase in power generation. Elon Musk recently said we might need to double the amount of power we’re currently generating if we go electric. He’s not saying this from a position of opposing electric cars. His Tesla dominates that market and he presumably wants to sell even more of them.

Toyota has publicly warned about this twice, while its smaller rival GM is pushing to go electric. GM may be virtue signaling to win favor with those in power in California and Washington and in the media. Toyota’s addressing reality and its record is evidence that it deserves to be heard.

YOU CAN IGNORE REALITY, BUT YOU CANNOT IGNORE THE CONSEQUENCES OF IGNORING REALITY!

I think we're safe from all of us driving electric cars for the foreseeable future.

Well said, Mr. Bray.

[GoDadGo]

For my driving style, the solid axle with the 3-Link is the way to go.
For most other folks, the I.R.S. will likely suite them better.
I like to go straight as fast as I can from time to time.
On back roads, I doubt if I'm get past .8-G's

[JohnK]

For my driving style, the solid axle with the 3-Link is the way to go.
For most other folks, the I.R.S. will likely suite them better.
I like to go straight as fast as I can from time to time.
On back roads, I doubt if I'm get past .8-G's

Yeah... way to change the subject.

[GoDadGo]

Yeah... way to change the subject.

This Ancient Thread's Title Is:
Solid Axle or IRS, which is better?

[Windsor]

Since we've gone totally off topic here...

One major point to consider is that the primary means by which people will charge their EV's is at home. Adding a NEMA 6-50 or NEMA 14-50 outlet in your garage or carport is trivially simple compared to building gas stations. At-home charging will cover >90% of the driving that people typically do. In our case, we're replacing one of our cars with an EV, and that will be used for all around-town driving and day trips, which will be the vast majority of our driving. We'll keep the SUV for now for hauling big stuff around, towing, and longer trips but that's a small fraction of the type of driving we do.

Additionally, new charging stations are springing up around here seemingly every day. Every public parking lot and many large business parking lots have multiple charging stations. These typically take a week or two to install. Compare that to how long it takes to build a gas station. I'm not trying to trivialize the effort involved in building out a robust charging infrastructure, but IMO it's already happening (at least here in CA) at a pretty fast pace. I can easily drive from SF to LA in an EV today in roughly the same amount of time it would take me in a gas powered car.

You have to admit that you’re in the middle of “tech, USA” living in SFBA. Something would be a bit off if you didn’t see charging stations popping up there.

To your point, charging the EV at a “public facility” is not generally considered as a stop in an average day. Most just do it in the home garage.

Every time I shop EVs and do the math to see how long before it pays for itself in saved fuel (compared to a similarly-equipped gasser), the numbers say buy the gasser.

As far as the OP’s question, I think the best answer is “go with IRS unless you identify a need for a solid axle.”

My opinion, of course.

[J R Jones]

@JohnK, @ Windsor I can only vouch for myself, and at age 16 I was tutored/mentored by an auto master technician on diagnosing cars. At my current age, I probably lack my former acute senses, but I am still sharper than the average bear. There is an analogy in the OP and the off topic discussion that illustrates vehicle contrasts.

I challenge most if not all participants on this forum to identify IRS from live axle by riding or driving without looking at the mechanicals; especially these high sprung performance cars. I don't feel I have more than a 50% chance of getting it right.

That challenge would be quite different identifying ICE VS electric cars......because there is more to it than turning the wheels, saving petroleum or contributing to climate change. There are dynamics to appreciate in an electric car.
jim

[phileas_fogg]

I can't speak for the new IRS, but there's a WORLD of difference between the 3-link and the old T-bird IRS. The best analogy I can come up with is it's like the difference between a leaf-spring Jeep and today's coil-over-spring Jeep.


John