818Rasmus E Modified

[Hindsight]

Glad to see you back at it!

[Rasmus]

Me too, Hindsight, me too.


Playing Mixxy/Matchy with the main bearing sets I have.


It's not the bearings. It's the bore.

Main #1: 0.0013"
Main #2: 0.0024" <--- She'd be a gusher!!!
Main #3: 0.0021"
Main #4: 0.0021"
Main #5: 0.0022"

Looks like I'll need to order a set of ACL 5M8309H-.25 Bearings. They're supposed to be 0.001" oversize (less oil clearance) and play mixxy/matchy with them. I'm gonna email my machinist and ask him what to do.

Edit: Ended up ordering a set of King Engine MB5382XPG.026 Crankshaft Main Bearings instead. They're also supposed to be 0.001" oversize (less oil clearance). 0.026mm ~= 0.001"

[Frank818]

Rasmus is alive!!!

[Rasmus]

Rasmus is alive!!!

Rasmustein Monster! It's beard! Sweet Odin, the beard!

Mixxy/Matched the bearings again and got:

Main #1: 0.0011"
Main #2: 0.0023"
Main #3: 0.0023"
Main #4: 0.0022"
Main #5: 0.0023"

So other than #1 being way tighter than the rest I got it so nothing else is wider than Main #3. Main #3 feeds oil to both Rod 2 and 3. Main #1 feeds oil to Rod 1 and Main #5 feeds oil to Rod 4.

On a related note: I like to continually check to see if my bore gauge stays zeroed. I usually check to see if it's zero before I measure #1, #2, & #3. I then flip the block over and recheck zero and then gauge #4 and #5 from the back. Then, just to make sure I recheck for zero again before I put the bore gauge down. Twice now on that final check the gauge has read .0001" over zero. My guess would be that my hands heat up the tool causing it to move away from it's previous zero point. It's ~64 degrees in the garage today.

[svanlare]

welcome back!

[longislandwrx]

Off topic, Ras did you give this arm the chop? It looks like it once held a cable perhaps a relic of a cable clutch option?


WP_20160411_002.jpg

[Scargo]

Raz! Sweet Sassy Molassy! I have questions: Did you have crank checked for straightness? Is it a cross-drilled one? What clearances are you trying to achieve? I would think what you came up with last looks pretty good.
What oil pump are you using and have you done any work on it or did you add another shim?

[Rasmus]

Off topic, Ras did you give this arm the chop? It looks like it once held a cable perhaps a relic of a cable clutch option?

That's at the top of the clutch pedal arm correct? Ya I cut that off. In the 5 bone stock WRX's I've worked on nothing's ever been installed in that hole at the end of that tab. Not sure why it's there.

[Rasmus]

Raz! Sweet Sassy Molassy! I have questions: Did you have crank checked for straightness? Is it a cross-drilled one? What clearances are you trying to achieve? I would think what you came up with last looks pretty good.
What oil pump are you using and have you done any work on it or did you add another shim?

Straightness checked in this post. So straight my dial gauge didn't move once zeroed. Crankshaft is, EJ205, 75mm stoke, P/N 12200AA240. Yep it's a de-stroker. The one that comes OE with the good crossdrilling for better oiling at high rpm.

Clearancewise on the Mains I just got an email back from Dale at Motion Machine this morning:

Hi Rasmus. Assuming your measurements are accurate, you need a set of .026mm under King mains. All bearing makers vary some in their actual versus stated wall thickness but in theory they would tighten up mains #2-#5. Anything under .0017" and over .001" would be good clearance on the mains. If you find that you have to mix a std shell and a .026 shell on the same main, install the .026 on the driver side on #2, and on the pass side on #4, these are the 2 saddles that will wear if the line bore is slightly big. Center main makes no difference. Dale

So looks like: .0010-.0017" is my target.

Oil pump. I don't know. Looking at the sweepers at my local track Turn one is a large radius 180 sweeper going right and turn two is a large radius 225 degree sweeper going left. I've pretty much resigned myself to a dry sump system.

[Scargo]

I understand wanting Dry sump... That's what I plan to do with my de-stroker, but with my STi track car (I'm finishing up building at the moment) I am running all KillerB stuff and a 12mm ported pump with the bypass blocked off and an external Peterson adjustable bypass valve(black with red caps). The -10 return hose is into the oil fill neck. 12mm because it's a loosely clearanced DAVCS motor with a lot of external oil stuff on it. I plan to turn 8K with it.

[Rasmus]

While waiting for my tighter main bearings to show up I decided to see how much my ARP head studs would pull the main bore when fully torqued down with heads and headgaskets.


Was getting everything ready and noticed that


the studs seemed to stick out a little far. So much so they might interfer with the camshafts So I went inside to check the ARP website and see if that was intended and then I noticed


I have the wrong set for my application. I have ARP 260-4702 for SOHC EJ motors not 260-4701 for DOHC EJ motors. The 260-4702 are about 9.5 inches long and the 260-4701 are supposed to be around 8.7 inches.

Damn it.

[Scargo]

Don't get agitated. That's the only piece of advice I can give you. This **** happens. Happens to me on a regular basis. Fortunately we catch most of it. Persevere. Baby steps.
I have learned so much over the past year+. Progress has been slow (just trying to get the STi done and out of the way). OTOH, I have gained confidence and am going where no man has gone before (that's how it feels).
You mentioned welding. I do not have a oxy-acetylene torch so some heating is difficult. I was welding away on my up-pipe only to find that it had warped quite a bit.
Then I started work on the down-pipe and the Borg Warner turbo's V-band flange is unique. Emails and phone-calls later I find that there were manufacturing changes and irregularities and that I could make my own V-band ring or go with the flow... Nothing easy or straightforward. More to buy that is not normal or mainstream. Why, I ask? To make us crazy!

[Hindsight]

Don't get me started on welding v-band rings to stainless steel! Never again.


That engine build is looking great Rasmus. Can't wait to see it all put together. Enjoy the journey.

[305mouse]

At least you caught it now

[Frank818]

That sucks! I've noticed a few things like that me too on my build, wrong parts. The important thing is to notice it before it runs! Which you did.

[Rasmus]

The new set of King Engine MB5382XPG.026 Crankshaft Main Bearings arrived. Popped them into 2, 3, 4, and 5 and left the normal size in 1:

Main #1: 0.0011"
Main #2: 0.0012"
Main #3: 0.0011"
Main #4: 0.0013"
Main #5: 0.0009"

As far as the F.S.M. I'm kissing the upper limit of the "go/no-go" range Subaru uses when they assemble these. I think I'm going to switch the bearing sets between 2 and 4, and also swap the two halves on 5 from right to left. The bearing I installed on the left side of 5 went in in tighter than any other bearing I've done. I'll see what comes of that. The proper length head bolts should be coming in soon so we'll get to see how much they pull (or push) on the bearing clearance.

Also...

Picked up one of those JDM twin scroll headers. This one was sold as coming from a "2006 Legacy GT". Don't think I'll use the up-pipe cause I still want to go with the Borg-Warner.


But I did get this with the sale of the header and uppipe.


IHI VF44. Knowing that doesn't get you much. There are no compressor maps for IHI turbos so I've no idea what this thing can do.

A 2006 Subaru Legacy B4 2.0GT spec.B Power is supplied by a double overhead camshaft, 2 litre turbocharged 4 cylinder motor, with 4 valves per cylinder that develops power and torque figures of 276 bhp (280 PS/206 kW) at 6400 rpm and 343 N·m (253 lb·ft/35 kgm) at 2400 rpm respectively

[Hindsight]

That's a nice looking factory manifold. Should pair nicely with a Borg Warner turbo and custom up-pipe!

[longislandwrx]

So the VF44 uses the RHF5H wheel ... here's something you may or may not have seen before (no efficiency though)

turbo-chart6.gif

that turbo tops out at about 320whp iirc.

[Mitch Wright]

I have the same JDM Header using a VF37 turbo, I can tell you the car sounds great. I have left all the heat shields on and with Cusco motor mounts it sits about 1/4" -3/8' below the frame rail that runs across the chassis in front of the engine. I also had to clearance the chassis motor mounts the header just rested on the corners, I trimmed a 1/2" off the point on each side and now have a finger width if clearance on both sides.

[Scargo]

Found the numbers from the shop that measured/set-up my new engine prior to my assembly. Most crank bearings are .0025" to .003"! Guess that's why I have the 12mm pump in my motor. Fast and loose! Rods are .0014" to .0016".
Funny how, when I Plastigauged it, I got under .002".

[Rasmus]

So the VF44 uses the RHF5H wheel

Where did you get that graph and information?!

I have the same JDM Header using a VF37 turbo, I can tell you the car sounds great. I have left all the heat shields on...

I'd love to keep as much of the OEM heat shields as possible. Acutally I'd love to repack the shields with Ceramic Insulation Blankets that people use on kilns, forges, and furnaces. Good up to 2400 Degrees F. Stainless Steel melts around 2550. Mitch do you know if the header pipes are Stainless Steel on this thing?

Found the numbers from the shop that measured/set-up my new engine prior to my assembly. Most crank bearings are .0025" to .003"! Guess that's why I have the 12mm pump in my motor. Fast and loose! Rods are .0014" to .0016".
Funny how, when I Plastigauged it, I got under .002".

Did your rods or mains plastigauge to under .002"?

[longislandwrx]

Where did you get that graph and information?!

http://www.ihi-turbo.com/turbo_RHE-RHF.htm

mad knowledge yo.

[Scargo]

Did your rods or mains plastigauge to under .002"?

My mains measured .0012", .0017", .0017", .0017", .0015" when I did it with Plastigauge. Shop came up with much bigger numbers, though I believe I verbally said I wanted as much as .002". I know he was used to BMW race motor clearances.

[Rasmus]

Realized that when I gapped my rings the first time, I didn't use my torque plate. So I went and found it and torqued it on with the correct ARP head bolts, which arrived. They're 8.75" long by the way. The SOHC ones were 9.5".

And did the gaps change? Yes.

Position - gap w/o head studs torqued ---> Gap with head studs torqued
#1 Top Ring - .020" ---> .022"
#1 2nd Ring - .022" ---> .024"

#2 Top Ring - .020" ---> .022"
#2 2nd Ring - .022" ---> .024"

#3 Top Ring - .020" ---> .021"
#3 2nd Ring - .022" ---> .022"

#4 Top Ring - .020" ---> .022"
#4 2nd Ring - .022" ---> .024"

Every bore's rings got wider by .002". Except bore 3. 3's only got wider by .001"

Ordered a new set of rings from JE so I can do this again!

[Frank818]

Damn, Raz, you too are getting those back lucks, you and I are facing the same kinds of ordeals. loll But we'll get through it!

[Rasmus]

While waiting for new piston rings to arrive from JE...


I decided to go with a 10mm OEM oil pump. A dry sump is nice but expensive. Crazy expensive. Added three shims to the pressure relief spring.


Broke some of the hard edges on the oil pump so the oil would flow easier. I'm no mechanical engineer but I know that fluid doesn't like to turn sharp corners without a bunch of turbulence.


It's not like I hogged the thing out. Just a gentle softening of the edges where the oil flows.


Spent maybe 20 minutes with a double cut, carbide, burr and a small, fine, file porting the pump. Spent another 75 minutes cleaning out the metal chips and bits.


And per Glyn's recommendation I picked up the "good" water pump. The one with the cast impeller instead of the more common stamped one. PN 21111AA026.

[Pearldrummer7]

Cutting those edges down is a really cool idea. As an electrical guy, I never would've thought to do that. Awesome work, as usual Rasmus!

[Hindsight]

that motor is going to be a work of art. You seem very zen about taking your time and focusing on the build instead of the end of the journey!

[Rasmus]

Thanks for the compliments fellas. I've never mentioned it, but one of the my mantras for this build is to do the stuff that would be hard if the car was all together. For example, if the car was running and I thought, "you know I might want to port that oil pump", that's hard to do with the motor in, and the timing belt adjusted.

Now that I'm off the "Need a Dry-Sump" thoughts i'm back to one of our old conversations.

1. Good oil pick up.
2. Accusump
3. Oil cooler with mechanical thermostat
4. Monitor Oil pressures so I get about 10 psi per 1000 RPM. So at 8000RPM I'd want 80psi of oil. I won't be running loose bearings (.0020"+). Just the upper limits of the FSM range (.0012"). So we'll have to see if the motor want's 30, 40, or 50 wt oil.

[longislandwrx]

I'm hoping to avoid the dry sump, I think my recipe is going to be very similar
1 Cosworth or similar DIY oil pan for extra capacity/ground clearance w/ pickup $200-600

maybe add their amazing baffle. so hot right now. but $350? still cheaper than a dry sump.

2 killer b oil control valve ~350
3 ???????
4 Oil cooler with mechanical thermostat ~300

[Scargo]

I'll try this again... I am in British Columbia. Reception is spotty for the internet and phone. I had a big post like this typed and lost it.

It is great to see you doing these things in lieu of a dry sump. I've done a ton of reading on the Subie forums and I think you have, too. I think I will do dry sump on my 818 but on the new motor I just finished for my STi I decided to experiment. I am aiming for 530 crank HP or 430 at four wheels and 8K RPM.
Where you are going for tighter tolerances and a 10mm pump, I went very loose and am running a 12mm pump. I went wild, where you went mild. I ported the oil pump like crazy and put a deep back on it, that I think comes on an 11mm pump. The bypass valve is blocked from opening. I have installed a Peterson external bypass valve on the right, rear gallery hole. A line goes to my Accusump from there and the bypass routes oil into the side of the oil fill tube. I tapped the flat spot on the fill tube for a 1/2 NPT. If centered properly the fitting nestles in there quite nicely.
On the block, I heavily radiused all the bends in the oil galleries and opened everything up as in "gasket-matching" of passages. I have a lot of burrs from my exercises in head porting. I am using a KB windage tray, pickup and pan. Also a remote filter and oil cooler. Almost 10 quart capacity.
I also paid a lot of attention to the water passages and plumbing. I do not have any water going to the throttle body. That feed line and return line are eliminated. I am using a 1/2" silicone hose to go straight to the expansion tank off the pump. I smoothed, radiused and enlarged the coolant crossover pipe's connections. I reworked the turbo feed and drain for improved efficiency. On the head venting I am using 5/8" aluminum tubing and rubber elbows to make the end connections between the heads. With my reversed N/A intake it is like a vast wasteland back there now. Pictures to follow.

[Rasmus]

Glyn, I like the idea of the oil bypass at the end-of-the-line in the oil galley array, directly returning to the sump. When bypassing, the oil pump won't churn up the same oil over and over heating up just a small volume of fluid. You'd slowly heat up the whole sump. Plus you'd be able to dial up or down oil pressure maximum really easy. Pricey, but trick. Good thinking there.



Gapping rings with a torque plate on was harder than thought it would be. The big issue was making sure the ring I was working with sat at the same depth in the bore all around it's circumference. The torque plate prevented me from using the usual method of just pushing a ring down with a piston with it's 2nd ring still on.


But it was fascinating seeing the variation in grind-to-fit rings as delivered vs. desired gap.
Bore 1, Top Ring: .015" ---> .020"
Bore 2, Top Ring: .014" ---> .020"
Bore 3, Top Ring: .014" ---> .020"
Bore 4, Top Ring: .013" ---> .020"

Bore 1, 2nd Ring: .010" ---> .022"
Bore 2, 2nd Ring: .011" ---> .022"
Bore 3, 2nd Ring: .010" ---> .022"
Bore 4, 2nd Ring: .011" ---> .022"

[Frank818]

Looks like perfect gaps, can it be any better?

[STiPWRD]

But it was fascinating seeing the variation in grind-to-fit rings as delivered vs. desired gap.
Bore 1, Top Ring: .015" ---> .020"
Bore 2, Top Ring: .014" ---> .020"
Bore 3, Top Ring: .014" ---> .020"
Bore 4, Top Ring: .013" ---> .020"

Bore 1, 2nd Ring: .010" ---> .022"
Bore 2, 2nd Ring: .011" ---> .022"
Bore 3, 2nd Ring: .010" ---> .022"
Bore 4, 2nd Ring: .011" ---> .022"

That's about the same thing I saw with my JE piston ring gaps and the same ring file I used. I noticed the file sometimes left burrs on the edges of the ring gaps that I had to lightly sand down with some sand paper. I didn't have a torque plate though, have you found that it makes a difference for the ring gaps? I know it's important to have for setting bearing clearances and boring/honing the cylinders.

[Rasmus]

...have you found that it makes a difference for the ring gaps?

I was curious too.

Realized that when I gapped my rings the first time, I didn't use my torque plate...

And did the gaps change? Yes.

Position - gap w/o head studs torqued ---> Gap with head studs torqued
#1 Top Ring - .020" ---> .022"
#1 2nd Ring - .022" ---> .024"

#2 Top Ring - .020" ---> .022"
#2 2nd Ring - .022" ---> .024"

#3 Top Ring - .020" ---> .021"
#3 2nd Ring - .022" ---> .022"

#4 Top Ring - .020" ---> .022"
#4 2nd Ring - .022" ---> .024"

Every bore's rings got wider by .002". Except bore 3. 3's only got wider by .001"

[STiPWRD]

That is interesting, so the gaps got a bit wider. I guess that's better than them getting narrower. Thanks for posting.

[Rasmus]

That is interesting, so the gaps got a bit wider.

Also keep in mind that I'm using ARP head studs that use more clamping force/torque than OEM studs. Would that make a difference? I don't know. I do know that clamped vs open makes a small difference.

[Scargo]

I had a small "gulp" when I read about your ring gapping experience as I have never had torque plates. I gapped mine to .020" and .024". I am using fully coated CP pistons.
I made my own ring grinder fixture using a Dremel with large diameter cut-off disc and a one inch dial indicator to monitor my cut. I slide the Dremel in a bracket I fabricated and there is some "holding your mouth right" to get accuracy and repeatability. I can cut them quite square with it.
FullSizeRender (1).jpg

[Rasmus]

Nice tool for ring gapping. I'd be so scared using a power tool to gap rings. I love how you've got the dial indicator so you can control how much is ground off. I found with my manual tool that 9 turns of the hand crank on my tool increased the gap ~.001". And that's with the pressure I put on it and the way I hold it. So someone else's mileage will vary depending on how they hold the ring.

there is some "holding your mouth right" to get accuracy and repeatability.

You ain't a joking there. When I do this fine measuring work I have to limit my usual caffeine intake. So my hands don't want to shake and my heart slows down. When I was using the bore gauge for the mains that measured to .00005" I could see my heart beat in the gauge's reading. At first I though my gauge was bad but noticed it would "pulse" with my heart.

[Rasmus]

Prepping to put the short block together, I started cleaning it. First time I cleaned just the exterior of the case. Using mineral spirits and brass brushes to remove the big oil, carbon, and white chalky build ups. So the outside would look nicer. It's not even close to show car good, but's it's way better than it was. Second time I cleaned I used mineral spirits on a siphon feed, blow gun at 80 psi to clean the oil galleys and internal surfaces without brushes.



The above is from the third time I've cleaned the block. This time I used mineral spirits on a siphon feed, blow gun at 80 psi. Then scrubbed each galley run with an appropriate sized brass "pipe-cleaner". Flushed again with mineral spirits at 80. Finally, blew it all out with compressed air. Look at that collection of shiny metal bits that came out. That's just what hit the pan. I wiped the pan clean before I started.