Frank's 818R build

[Pearldrummer7]

Ps just clicked to post 1 to refresh my memory of your build. Nice job on the highlights links!

I have To agree, the highlights links are a great idea!

Thanks! It's a direct result of airport bordem on a long layover (in Zurich, perhaps?).

I'm a little nervous to post dyno specs, as my WRX went 295/329 at EFI and was only putting down ~245/301 on the the dyno at Moon. But, at the end of the day it's all about the butt dyno anyway, isn't it?

[Pearldrummer7]

All aligned and tuned now!

Alignment took forever (it seemed), as I was in the car for balance purposes and had to hold the brake down the entire time. It went well, though. Here are the results:

Front:
3.5* caster
-0.5* camber
0.1* toe

Rear:
-0.5* camber
0.2* toe

drives and brakes way nicer than before (of course). I think it's probably a bit conservative on camber but we'll see how it feels at speed soon enough!

[Pearldrummer7]

As for tuning...

before tuning, Taylor recommended we replace some things. We changed out an intercooler hose, the metal turbo coolant reservoir from steel to plastic, a fuel line, changed some clamps out, and better secured a few things. He provided us all the tools (though I brought plenty in the truck) and the parts we needed. Plus, between fixing parts, alignment, and tuning it took until way late in the night and Taylor had no problem continuing to work to help us get out of there without leaving the car all week. What a guy!


It went poorly at first, as boost was dropping off. Turns out we had the EBCS plumbed slightly wrong, and even after it was spinning the wheels on the dyno, so we strapped down the rear-center of the car much better and didn't have issues. Taylor let me drive it on the dyno while he tuned (in part because it was easier for him, and partly because I really wanted to drive it on the dyno ). It made the smoothest power curve I've ever seen on a turbo Subaru.




Only thing that we couldn't figure out is why it made such low power according to the dyno. Taylor's dyno always reads lower than some (my WRX was about 50hp lower than EFI's dyno on the same tune/hardware/similar weather), but 180hp for my motor doesn't seem right. Perhaps something with the weight he typed in for the calculation, or maybe something to do with RWD on a normally AWD dyno. Based on the motor (a hybrid EJ257/205 with forged internals at 18 psi) and the fact that it just throws you into your seat in both the 818 and the donor car it came out of, I have a hard time believing it's making less than my stock 2012 WRX motor. Either way, the car is WAY faster now and super driveable.


Extremely impressed with the smoothness of this tune and will be taking my 2012 stage 2 WRX to him to be retuned. I'm absolutely floored at how well he works, how accommodating he is, and how good his tunes turn out. That was my shameless plug for anyone in the NY region looking for a tune; Moon Performance was an amazing experience!

[Scargo]

" the metal turbo coolant reservoir from steel to plastic..." Huh? It's always been considered an upgrade to go to metal, but for durability reasons. However, I still use the stock plastic one on my track STi.

You are comparing Mustang dyno to Mustang dyno. EFI's is a Mustang. Smooth lines are usually the result of a high level of "smoothing" by the dyno's computer. It's bizarre that it didn't make more power. I would try another turbo for comparison. I can't remember what you have for exhaust and turbo. What did the tuner have to offer as why it did so poorly?

[Pearldrummer7]

" the metal turbo coolant reservoir from steel to plastic..." Huh? It's always been considered an upgrade to go to metal, but for durability reasons. However, I still use the stock plastic one on my track STi.

You are comparing Mustang dyno to Mustang dyno. EFI's is a Mustang. Smooth lines are usually the result of a high level of "smoothing" by the dyno's computer. It's bizarre that it didn't make more power. I would try another turbo for comparison. I can't remember what you have for exhaust and turbo. What did the tuner have to offer as why it did so poorly?

I'm not sure about the steel one being an upgrade. I've had 2 Subarus with the steel reservoir and one with the plastic. Both steel ones rusted out and started sweating, whereas the plastic one is good as new so far. I'm not sure, though. The tuner seemed to like the plastic ones better for that reason. Either way, this one doesn't leak which is a welcome change.


EFI's is a Mustang, but they can hardly be directly compared. As I said before, my 2012 WRX lost HP (upon checking, it lost over 60 HP) on the Moon dyno vs. the EFI dyno. I've heard "his is too high", "his is too low", but either way they aren't 1 for 1 with the same car and the same tune just a few weeks off.

On a similar note, my WRX's power looks like I drew the line with my non-dominant hand in the dark. It's extremely unsmooth in power on both EFI's and Moon's dynos. This one was the "smoothest" curve he's ever seen out of a Subaru. It might be smoothed somewhat by the dyno, of course, but it's particularly smooth for a turbo Subaru car from what I understand.


My turbo is a nearly-new VF39, and I have the AJW exhaust without a cat. I don't know why it didn't make more power on the dyno. Perhaps something is miscalibrated? I've done 0-70 mph pulls with my stage 2 2012 WRX and the car this engine came out of, and it is mind blowing how much faster it is. I don't believe the car was only making 180 hp. I think something was up with either the dyno, the setup, etc. But again, the car feels extremely fast and equally powerful. I'm not sure why the number is so low.

Just my thoughts on it. It's still very much so bothering me.

edit: maybe "flat" should be used instead of "smooth" for power.

[mikeb75]

The old steelies had paint on the inside, very bad ju-ju for coolant system.
I also know from first hand experience that the steel tank rusts and sometimes doesn't hold pressure.
Plastic is considered an upgrade for those 2 reasons -as long as you don't slam it into the chassis when the engine torque against the OEM mounts...

[Tamra]

Do you know anything about what timing was like during the pulls (ie was the tuner pulling timing for any reason?). What was the ambient temperature (and for that matter when you had your WRX tuned by EFI and Taylor, was there any drastic temperature difference between the two days)?

Did you keep your foot on the gas or were you lifting at all?

It seems strange that you had so much psi loss in the higher rpms. If you were keeping your foot down, I'd be looking for plots from other VF39s.

[Wayne Presley]

As for tuning...

It made the smoothest power curve I've ever seen on a turbo Subaru.




Only thing that we couldn't figure out is why it made such low power according to the dyno. !

Smooth lines are usually the result of a high level of "smoothing" by the dyno's computer. It's bizarre that it didn't make more power. I would try another turbo for comparison. I can't remember what you have for exhaust and turbo. What did the tuner have to offer as why it did so poorly?

On a similar note, my WRX's power looks like I drew the line with my non-dominant hand in the dark. It's extremely unsmooth in power on both EFI's and Moon's dynos. This one was the "smoothest" curve he's ever seen out of a Subaru. It might be smoothed somewhat by the dyno, of course, but it's particularly smooth for a turbo Subaru car from what I understand.


My turbo is a nearly-new VF39, and I have the AJW exhaust without a cat. I don't know why it didn't make more power on the dyno. Perhaps something is miscalibrated? I've done 0-70 mph pulls with my stage 2 2012 WRX and the car this engine came out of, and it is mind blowing how much faster it is. I don't believe the car was only making 180 hp. I think something was up with either the dyno, the setup, etc. But again, the car feels extremely fast and equally powerful. I'm not sure why the number is so low.

Just my thoughts on it. It's still very much so bothering me.

edit: maybe "flat" should be used instead of "smooth" for power.

The smoothing he used in the Mustang software is very large (30), below is what I use on my dyno (5). It's really easy to show a nice smooth powerband when you put such a big number in. You can have him reprint the sheet with the lower as the software saves the raw numbers

It seems strange that you had so much psi loss in the higher rpms. If you were keeping your foot down, I'd be looking for plots from other VF39s.

It could be in the tune (BCS duty cycle tapering off) or the turbo is running out of CFM.

[Scargo]

You don't have a rat's nest stuck in your intake somewhere do you? RE, what Wayne said, VF39s are capable of 300 WHP and 20 PSI. How does that turbo run out of boost, or is it? The engine's obviously running out of something that stops the power from building and making the turbo seem to flat-line. If it's not the turbo's wastegate or the tuner's doing then it can only be a few things. Low compression. I would think you would see horrible blowby if that's the case unless it's the valves. Ring blowby usually does not count for much loss. That leaves the efficiency of the exhaust before or after the exhaust and after seems to be good since you have that beautiful AJW "downpipe". Did you stick a cat/muffler on it that could make the exhaust significantly more restrictive than before?
What did you have for cooling the intercooler this time vs when it was in the WRX? I know EFI has a big fan. There could be some loss if that got very hot and air was not blowing directly on it. Was there any air on the intercooler? Same premium fuel? Could it be bad gas? Seems if he had to dial it back because of knock he would have said something.
In the end, the difference is so great that even parasitic losses and minor inefficiencies don't explain it. Unless the tuner was having a bad day I can only imagine his dyno is way off or you still had a lot of traction loss on the dyno. Your butt dyno is relevant. However, when you are four inches off the ground in an open "go-cart" almost anything in that light chassis can seem very quick.

[Pearldrummer7]

Thanks for all the replies, guys.


Wayne, I suppose I should've said "flat" not "smooth".



I'm not sure if I have a real problem or a dyno problem. I'm thinking the most sure way to do it would be to bring the 818 to someone else's dyno and see how it fares. Like you said, Glyn: it could just be the lack of weight that makes it feel so fast to me. We did have a fan pointing at the intercooler, it was just some 93 octane gas from a Sunoco. The exhaust is uncatted so I'm pretty sure the AJW flows nicely. Low compression could absolutely be a culprit. I never did a compression test and think it's a good idea to do.

I'm thinking I either have a large problem (something like compression problems) or the dyno was reading inaccurately (which could be in dyno setup or just tire spin on the dyno).


I'm trying to balance getting this problem fixed and not being on the attack for a tuner who I think did a good job on the car and accommodated my schedule very well.

[STiPWRD]

I'm thinking the most sure way to do it would be to bring the 818 to someone else's dyno and see how it fares.

Bingo, I'd check compression first and then try another dyno.

[Pearldrummer7]

But, either way. First autox this weekend regardless of how much power I'm making pretty excited to see how it handles. I suppose the best case is the compression is low and this is only a tease of the power I can someday make! Thanks for helping troubleshoot the weird dyno results, all.


Tamra, I didn't mean to ignore your comment. The other VF39 charts I've looked at (though not terribly close to my engine's build) do trail off in boost like mine does. The tuner did the pull that we printed, just because I wasn't as smooth as he was haha.

[Aero STI]

Rather than go to another dyno, find a flat stretch of road and log a 3rd gear pull. Dump the data in to airboy or virtual dyno and put in the real gear ratios, weight, etc. My '06 WRX engine with TD04 running 19 PSI on 93 octane made around 240 WHP on virtual dyno.

[Pearldrummer7]

First autox! I don't yet have a roll bar mount for the GoPro so I suction cupped it to the inside (I was afraid it'd fall off outside). First run with a cold tires and it was SLOW! But oh man was it fun. This thing is going to have a huge learning curve and be a riot to drive. I co-drove it with my friend all day, then drove his 2015 GTI for the rainy night session. The car did very well and I totally felt like the prettiest girl at the prom having such a unique car. I'm in need of more seat time!!

Crappy angled video:
https://vimeo.com/129373013

[Tamra]

Awesome!! It sounds great

3rd gear for <1 sec though? Just run the rev limiter!

[Scargo]

Excellent. Must be a good feeling to drive it and play in it. One thing I noticed was that it looks like you could benefit from faster steering for Auto-X. Was it an unusually tight course in places?

[Pearldrummer7]

Awesome!! It sounds great

3rd gear for <1 sec though? Just run the rev limiter!

I didn't grab that shift any other lap haha that would be part of the learning curve!

It sounds pretty cool

Excellent. Must be a good feeling to drive it and play in it. One thing I noticed was that it looks like you could benefit from faster steering for Auto-X. Was it an unusually tight course in places?

It feels great! Long time coming.

It's a tight course for sure. I think the steering will feel less slow on a track, but a quicker rack would be nice for sure.

[Frank818]

Wow! Must be nice driving the car! Looks violent, I like that. And looks like you were very often spinning the wheels!

[Pearldrummer7]

Put the firewall in last night. Going to back-to-back autox this weekend (Cherry Valley Motorsport Park and the upstate Fairgrounds in case you plan to go to either of those!). Should be fun. Also bought a track day at NYST, and I've been told I need fenders by that time (8/28). Tamra and Andrew's quick body progress inspired me to push myself on that one!


It's amazing how much cleaner the car looks with a full firewall.

[Tamra]

Looking good!!

We haven't actually done the fenders yet, but hopefully they won't be too bad.

[Pearldrummer7]

Whew! One hell of a weekend.

Took the car out autoxing Saturday, and it started to rain a little. I figured I might as well squeeze in my last 2 runs before it got too wet. Well, I lost it on a tight turn (go kart track) and went nose first into some foam. It was pretty low speed (maybe 15 mph) and the foam helped ease the impact quite a bit. Didn't seem to affect anything until an hour or so later, when I started the car up again. It was running a little rough, we found a vacuum hose that popped off (presumably in the low-speed crash). It still breaks up under boost. Don't know if I have another vacuum leak I can't find or an electronic problem.

We pulled the upstream O2 sensor and it didn't change how it runs so I ordered a new OEM O2. I'm assuming that's the issue at this point, and that either something got wet and made it crap out or that it was on its way out (donor car O2 IIRC) and just happened to die at the same time I "crashed it"


Then, I did some body work on Sunday instead of autox'ing again.





As you can see, I had to modify the body to fit my second pass-side coolant line. I figured this would work since I don't have doors. I'm going to put some of this on the edge with the coolant pipe. It forms to surfaces really nicely. Wish I knew about this stuff before I started the build! I can post more detailed pictures of the cutaway if anyone is curious.

[Frank818]

Well look at it positively, foam is better than concrete!

There's a looooot of stuff we all wish we knew before starting the build.
The door will finally have it's use, it will cover your coolant line. Speaking of which, you will also modify the door to accommodate? Or will you not ever use doors?

[Pearldrummer7]

Well look at it positively, foam is better than concrete!

There's a looooot of stuff we all wish we knew before starting the build.
The door will finally have it's use, it will cover your coolant line. Speaking of which, you will also modify the door to accommodate? Or will you not ever use doors?

Much better than concrete, and I learned a little about my limits of grip

I will do the same notch in the door, I think. I plan to run doors. I actually don't know what anyone else did for the body when they ran both coolant lines on the "passenger" side. I just saw this solution and went for it

[Pearldrummer7]

Autox'd the 818 with a friend after fixing my problem. Turns out the fuel hose from the pump to the top of the tank came loose and was intermittently delivering fuel. Quick tighten and it was all good, after removing the firewall -_-

Obligatory "this was my progress this weekend" shot


Car did great! Played with tire pressures. We were at 27/27 hot and it felt pretty good (Direzza ZII Star Spec tires). It is nice having a co driver to help keep the heat in during longer run groups.

[Pearldrummer7]

Installed the reverse lights in the couple hours I had home last night. They're pretty bright! Reverse works, turn signals do not (the LED works, but the actual turn indicator doesn't yet). I haven't even glanced at the wiring yet but I will when I have time. I vaguely remember the hazard switch being involved in the turn signal wiring. I'm sure it's not too tough to get right.

They look so damn pretty!

[Pearldrummer7]

A better autox angle at MCC with FLR SCCA. My co driver spun the 818 a few times, which was funny. I'll ask her permission before posting the embarrassing runs.

[billjr212]

Installed the reverse lights in the couple hours I had home last night. They're pretty bright! Reverse works, turn signals do not (the LED works, but the actual turn indicator doesn't yet). I haven't even glanced at the wiring yet but I will when I have time. I vaguely remember the hazard switch being involved in the turn signal wiring. I'm sure it's not too tough to get right.

The parking switch on top of the steering column is also involved. My switch actually went bad (I probably cooked it somehow during wiring) and turn signals suddenly stopped working. I had to jumper past the parking brake switch and everything works fine now (except, of course, the parking switch, which I never plan to use anyway).

[Bob_n_Cincy]

A better autox angle at MCC with FLR SCCA. My co driver spun the 818 a few times, which was funny. I'll ask her permission before posting the embarrassing runs.

Frank, nothing to be embarrassed about.
Michael and I have over 40 spins between us.
A couple of top local drivers have spun it also.
Bob

[metalmaker12]

I spun it a few times

[Pearldrummer7]

The parking switch on top of the steering column is also involved. My switch actually went bad (I probably cooked it somehow during wiring) and turn signals suddenly stopped working. I had to jumper past the parking brake switch and everything works fine now (except, of course, the parking switch, which I never plan to use anyway).

Huh, I guess I need to spend a few hours with the wiring diagram and a voltmeter. I don't think I intend to use a parking switch.

Frank, nothing to be embarrassed about.
Michael and I have over 40 spins between us.
A couple of top local drivers have spun it also.
Bob

I spun it a few times

I'm not embarrassed by it, but I thought she might be! It's an easy car to lose IMO. Either way, here's two videos of it:


https://vimeo.com/132706210

It was her first time driving it, and she had a little bit of t-rex arms compared to mine for the steering wheel; not bad all things considered. Rest of her runs were clean... I was collecting a cone per run most of the day.

[Pearldrummer7]

Oh! I never posted this update. I had a blown fuse which stopped my parking lights from working. Turn signals work, too (albeit quickly) if you apply 12V to the hazard switch. I ditched that relay, so I've gotta come up with a solution.

Here's a butt shot, with lights, some exhaust soot, and the only decal going on the body for the (late) friend of the family who inspired me to build this thing in the first place.

[JeromeS13]

Turn signals work, too (albeit quickly) if you apply 12V to the hazard switch. I ditched that relay, so I've gotta come up with a solution.

You didn't get the FFR supplied LED flasher? It replaces your OEM flasher unit to compensate for the low-load LED lights.

[Pearldrummer7]

You didn't get the FFR supplied LED flasher? It replaces your OEM flasher unit to compensate for the low-load LED lights.

Not yet I havent. I haven't done front lights either yet. Though I intend to!!

[FFRSpec72]

You must be using an AJW exhaust. Here is what I will be using for rear vents and exhaust trim.

WP_20150509_10_49_47_Pro.jpg

[Pearldrummer7]

You must be using an AJW exhaust. Here is what I will be using for rear vents and exhaust trim.

WP_20150509_10_49_47_Pro.jpg

WOW. That looks awesome. Did you make this?

[Mechie3]

I think Vraptor Speedworks made it.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...terest-in-this

I'm still disappointed the exhaust isn't centered when installed as is. :/

[FFRSpec72]

I think Vraptor Speedworks made it.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...terest-in-this

I'm still disappointed the exhaust isn't centered when installed as is. :/

Correct (and agree about not being centered), been working with VRaptor and then ran into the issue on the non-centered exhaust from AJW, so after spending a few weeks figuring out that it is what it is this was the design, not exactly perfect since to make it look right have to bend the lower part of the ring to match the lip. So the install will involve cutting out 3 areas, area on left and right of the ring (just area behind the louvers) and then the middle section with the ring and area above the ring.

[C.Plavan]

Frank- How was the track day?

[Pearldrummer7]

Frank- How was the track day?

Haven't had it yet! I have a lot to do before the track day comes around (8/28), and am actually stalking both your thread Chad and Craig's for solutions

[Pearldrummer7]

So, I'm trying to figure out front end/fender/hood alignment and am running into an issue.

It seems my driver side fender is further in and/or further up than my passenger side fender. At the current point, front fenders to rear fenders (or rocker panels, whatever) are good, wheel gap is good, headlight gap is pretty close, bumper is level and at an appropriate height, and the hood almost fits. However, the hood won't go down in the front due to the driver side fender. Here's a photo to illustrate:

Driver


Pass


And head on



I'm thinking the easiest solution is to trim down the "depth" of the hood on the pass side. This will help it sit flat. Anyone run into something like this? Any ideas or suggestions, short of starting headlight buckets over again and seeing if I can space the driver headlight a little further out?

At the end of the day, I don't care a ton about body lines being perfect. It -is- a race car, after all!