Plavan's 818R Build Thread

[sponaugle]

The cooler is a heater as well. It uses 190f coolant to cool the oil, which is good for a dd but not a race car. It also helps to get oil up to temp faster in a dd.

That has always been the conventional wisdom, although if the oil temp is 250 degrees and the coolant is 190f, it would cool the oil. I removed mine as well, and had it removed on my track car with any problems. On my GT-R, there are coolant intercoolers that link to both the oil and the transmission fluid, so the are normally all very close to the same temperature.

I would be most concerned with the cause of the loss in power at higher oil temps. If it is due to timing retard, that can exacerbate the problem, as the reduced timing will typically increase both EGT and oil temps.

Jeff

[305mouse]

Considering the amount of cooling developement/execution that you have done, I don't see anyone else with temps like yours. Could the issue be the sending unit or ecu?

[C.Plavan]

Considering the amount of cooling developement/execution that you have done, I don't see anyone else with temps like yours. Could the issue be the sending unit or ecu?

I am the only one really racing it. Everyone else (Even Factory Five) blew their motors up.

I will be adding a 50 row oil cooler in the front as a last ditch effort. If that does not work, I'll probably get rid of it and move on.

This looks interesting, but I will not be one of the first ones to buy/build it this time (I learned my lesson). Although, I'm sure Elan will do alot more proper testing.

http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=130264

[flynntuna]

You've given so much to the community, I'd hate to see you give up on this. Heat management has been an issue with a lot of F5 cars. I've seen some solutions for venting the engine compartment in the GTM section, everything from louvers on the deck lid to NACA ducts in the belly pan. Hope you find a solution soon.

[Scargo]

I'd hate to see you pack it in. I do understand the frustration. I'm still having teething pains with the three diff setup/aftermarket controller in my STi. Spun twice in my last outing because something is wrong.
I see no reason why you cannot solve the oil heat issues. I hope you will try another sensor, gauge etc. and verify the readings with other parts.
To be frank you are mentioning FFR and other's failures which were not heat related. They should not be lumped together as pointing toward a failed race car package. It has shown great promise. You have shown great promise.
I just picked up my engine pieces from the machine shop. Now I can build my destroker motor. I hope to have mine on the track in the spring. Good luck!

[Mitch Wright]

Chad,

I am sure you have already talked to some engine builders about the possibility of an engine issue that is running up the oil temp? Sorry I didn't go back and look, does the water temp followed the oil temp up?

[C.Plavan]

I'd hate to see you pack it in. I do understand the frustration. I'm still having teething pains with the three diff setup/aftermarket controller in my STi. Spun twice in my last outing because something is wrong.
I see no reason why you cannot solve the oil heat issues. I hope you will try another sensor, gauge etc. and verify the readings with other parts.
To be frank you are mentioning FFR and other's failures which were not heat related. They should not be lumped together as pointing toward a failed race car package. It has shown great promise. You have shown great promise.
I just picked up my engine pieces from the machine shop. Now I can build my destroker motor. I hope to have mine on the track in the spring. Good luck!

Frustration is an understatement. Let me vent for a bit.

FFR does not even have a oil temp gauge (or didn't). Not sure they are even running a cooler (How could we know- The cars disappeared ). So I don't think anyone can say that was not part of the issue. Yes, the car shows great promise...... All of them have not proven reliable on the track. Sure, I could autocross all day long with it and not have a problem, or go grab something at the store if it was street legal. Racing or tracking a 818R is a whole different story, especially if you are not "Putt, Putting" around the track. I could have a successful track day going 80%, but I'm not wired that way. I'm full on racing out there, even when testing (old tires limited). If it was 40 degree's outside (when testing the FFR 818R) I'm sure I would not have a problem with heat either.

Regardless- I'm not new to this, and it's not my first rodeo. I have been racing wheel to wheel for over 17 years, on the track for over 22 years. I have built all my cars. I know there are growing pains with any new race car- but this is getting ridiculous. I'll be buying my 4th oil cooler for this car. Gauges and senders have been checked. These turbo's and suby motors are the only thing new to me. Currently I am running two Setrab oil coolers that are race recommended HP between 510-710HP total (64k-84k BTU/HR). I am running a detuned 283 RWHP (2266 pounds class minimum weight with me in it)- It's not like i'm running 600+ hp. The motor is a new built block from a 2013 STI (only thing added were 272 cams, springs, forged pistons). The car has heat related issues.

Ahhhhhhhh


Venting is good....... Now if I could get the rear of the car to vent..... It was so damn hot Friday.

[Hindsight]

Chad, I'm not a Subaru expert but I'd just be really surprised if you needed enough oil cooler for 1500HP to keep your temps down. Just doesn't make sense. I feel something else has to be going on. I'd look into what Jeff said about the timing.... call your tuner, give him the logs and ask him if he sees anything in there that might contribute to such high temps.

One suggestion I have to add an inline oil temp sensor to your line from the sump to the engine. You can get them here: http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/p...ab_Oil_Coolers They basically allow you to keep all your existing AN hoses and fittings and it just goes between two of your existing AN fittings; provides you with a 1/8" NPT female socket that you can then put an oil temp gauge into. If the temps coming from the oil tank and going to the engine look good, then you know the issue isn't your coolers or your tank heat soaking. This would be valuable data.

Like the other's, I'd be sad to see you go as well. You've come a long way with the car and it seems you are only one issue away from fully dialed in.

[D Clary]

Hey Chad just thinking out loud again. I am familiar with turbos, not Subies. When I upgraded the turbo on my Mustang and when to the ceramic ball bearings. Turbonetics advised reducing the oil flow to the turbo. I have a .050 orifice to the oil inlet and have been running it that way for three years of street auto x and track days. My point is that if there is less oil being superheated in the turbo, maybe less heat overall into the oil. This is a ceramic bearing turbo, I don't know what yours is.. I do know that even with a water cooled turbo, the center gets 500 + degrees and your'e oil is transferring a portion of that. I know you're frustration but as you say it's not you're first rodeo, can't be you're first frustration. You have the car very fast you just have a big bug to work out. If nothing else you may just need to take a break and beat the Porsche.

[C.Plavan]

Chad, I'm not a Subaru expert but I'd just be really surprised if you needed enough oil cooler for 1500HP to keep your temps down. Just doesn't make sense. I feel something else has to be going on. I'd look into what Jeff said about the timing.... call your tuner, give him the logs and ask him if he sees anything in there that might contribute to such high temps.

One suggestion I have to add an inline oil temp sensor to your line from the sump to the engine. You can get them here: http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/p...ab_Oil_Coolers They basically allow you to keep all your existing AN hoses and fittings and it just goes between two of your existing AN fittings; provides you with a 1/8" NPT female socket that you can then put an oil temp gauge into. If the temps coming from the oil tank and going to the engine look good, then you know the issue isn't your coolers or your tank heat soaking. This would be valuable data.

Like the other's, I'd be sad to see you go as well. You've come a long way with the car and it seems you are only one issue away from fully dialed in.

I have that for my 180 degree thermal fan switch back there. So I know when it hits 180 because the fans kick on. Plus, the gauge says the same thing.

It's not 1500 hp rated, the total is 510-710hp both combined. I should of been more clear.

[C.Plavan]

Hey Chad just thinking out loud again. I am familiar with turbos, not Subies. When I upgraded the turbo on my Mustang and when to the ceramic ball bearings. Turbonetics advised reducing the oil flow to the turbo. I have a .050 orifice to the oil inlet and have been running it that way for three years of street auto x and track days. My point is that if there is less oil being superheated in the turbo, maybe less heat overall into the oil. This is a ceramic bearing turbo, I don't know what yours is.. I do know that even with a water cooled turbo, the center gets 500 + degrees and your'e oil is transferring a portion of that. I know you're frustration but as you say it's not you're first rodeo, can't be you're first frustration. You have the car very fast you just have a big bug to work out. If nothing else you may just need to take a break and beat the Porsche.

The Blouch turbo already has the oil restrictor.

[xxguitarist]

Chad,
I'm sure i'm coming in late, and going over old news to you, and I haven't searched the thread for my answers.

What are your bearing clearances, is your motor AVCS, and what oil pump are you running, with what bypass pressure/shim count (and ideally, what RPM do you see it hit bypass pressure, and what RPM do you run most of the time on the track average?)

Other ideas- any chance you could log temps into & out of your oil cooler? Would show where the problem is coming from (heat generation or rejection)

Reasons I'm asking- the oil bypass generates heat. Too much pump for the oiling needs causes more bypass. Could be that the cooler isn't flowing enough oil (is all the pumped oil passing through the cooler?), or that it's not getting enough air.

[Hindsight]

Chad, have you asked around and searched in the NASIOC forum for guys who are tracking their cars? Maybe post your oil heat issues over there? Also, knowing when your oil hits 180 in the line to the cooler is different from knowing exactly what the temperature is at that point in the system vs within the engine. I think it would be valuable data. Maybe hard-wire the fan to the on-position and temporarily re-purpose that fitting for an oil temp sensor and add another gauge?

[DanielsDM]

Chad,
It would be a bummer to see you give up after all this work. As others have said there must be something else going on. Have you measured the temps before and after the oil cooler(s)? A pair of tape on thermocouples and a handheld meter would work for a temporary setup.
http://www.amazon.com/Fluke-52-2-Inp...e+thermocouple
Maybe the coolers aren't working as well as they should be.

For reference this car is running 600+HP and is raced hard for much longer than a 20 minute session, finished 2nd overall in the 25hrs of Thunderhill 2012.
DR_Eagle.jpg
It does not have an air to oil heat exchanger, but uses a coolant to oil one like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ci...0002/overview/

With your HP level your setup should be more than adequate. Keep looking and I'm sure you'll figure it out.

[Sgt.Gator]

The dry sump tank must be getting heat soaked from the engine bay. Is there any way to move it into the passenger compartment or the front area?

[icky]

The dry sump tank must be getting heat soaked from the engine bay. Is there any way to move it into the passenger compartment or the front area?

I was thinking the same thing, try to move your oil tank to a cooler place? High temp heat wrap is fairly dense so its not that great of an insulator, just better than nothing.

[Wayne Presley]

I'd like to see the temp gauge inline before the motor instead of being in the motor. The Lotus has two 11x8" core oil coolers and a similar sized radiator to the WRX and the oil was at 240 F° with 250RWHP in the SC car. I'm thinking that the ECU is hearing some detonation and pulling the timing when it gets hot and that is the power loss you are feeling and not the motor tightening up.

[DanielsDM]

That's a good point Wayne. Chad, are you able to log data from the ECU? An OBDII reader, a smart phone and an app like DashCommand makes an inexpensive data logger and allows you to read all the data on the CAN network.

[Hindsight]

The Lotus has two 11x8" core oil coolers and a similar sized radiator to the WRX and the oil was at 240 F° with 250RWHP in the SC car.

WOW, I would not have guessed the Lotus needed so much oil cooler for 250RWHP. Good to know.

I guess if you aren't ducting the 818 front fascia side vents to the brake rotors, you could always fit one oil cooler behind each of them.

Where do you put the oil coolers on the Lotus?

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad's car after all cooling mods:

[C.Plavan]

Haha- True!

[Mechie3]

I'd take that over an 818. It looks badass!

[C.Plavan]

I'm still wanting one of these. I'm already past $ halfway cost with the 818R. Shoulda, woulda, coulda.

[metalmaker12]

It's cool but way to much$

[C.Plavan]

It's a deal compared to my 818R time, cash, and energy.

[D Clary]

Wouldn't you be doing the same R&D on that one?

[C.Plavan]

Wouldn't you be doing the same R&D on that one?

For sure, but they are using proven race parts/motors/trans. Élan makes other race cars for major series.

Much safer also since it is enclosed (selling point for my wife )

[D Clary]

Great Idea, wait until someone gets done and pissed off at their Elan project and trade them.

[C.Plavan]

Great Idea, wait until someone gets done and pissed off at their Elan project and trade them.

Haha. Just wait Young Grasshopper ��

[Sgt.Gator]

I'd take that over an 818. It looks badass!

Radicals look badass and they are badass! The Radical SR8 LM has the fastest production lap on the Nürburgring, a record held since 2009. The second fastest car? A Radical SR8, a record since 2005.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...eife_lap_times

The new one pictured here is supposed to be the most aerodynamically advanced open top Radical ever made, the RXC Spyder. Of course it costs $175,000!

However I think there are things we can learn and apply to an 818R. Like the faired in roll bar?

[Frank818]

Oh that blue color!! I need to find a wrap with the same color!

[Brando]

"The latest-generation RPE 3.0-litre V8 engine develops an incredible 440bhp at up to 10,500rpm, yet is also warranted for up to 40 hours between rebuilds - the equivalent of a whole season's racing use."

40 hours between rebuilds? At first thought it seems low, but then I contrast it to my experience thus far and it's a 40x improvement.

That thing is pretty sick

[Scargo]

I believe the Palatov's are a similar breed. Brando, don't give up on the Subie motor. I am approaching 40 hours on my STi track car motor. 7,200 RPMs, 395 WHP (AWD) 393 TQ. Should I be cringing, waiting for the big ka-boom?

[Scargo]

Back to the real world and heat issues. I just received a quote for finned tubes to run from the front to back for cooling oil before and after an oil cooler.
Tube Specifications:


Aluminum Tube - 3/4" OD x 0.035" w x 48" OAL Inches, with turbulators. The fins are a linear, flat fin design. Two lengths= $344. I will probably order these but i will not take delivery of them till September since I will not be back on the car till then. I will weld AN fittings on each end.
If anyone wants more specifics PM me. I'm not going to promote something that may not work or suggest a group buy or anything like that until I've tested it.

[walt555]

Hey Chad did you verify the water thermostat in the motor? I think the stock one is about 200F. When I first got the wrx I changed it out to a 165F to be more knock resistant.

[metalmaker12]

When it comes to road racing air to air intercoolers are the way to go. In this setup you will have to get crafty

Here's a thought for the intercooler and oil coolers

image.jpg

[walt555]

[QUOTE=walt555;203465]Hey Chad did you verify the water thermostat in the motor? I think the stock one is about 200F. When I first got the wrx I changed it out to a 165F to be more knock resistant.[/QUOTE
Sorry for the dumb question. Your probably already got something lower than stock in there.

[C.Plavan]

Hey Chad did you verify the water thermostat in the motor? I think the stock one is about 200F. When I first got the wrx I changed it out to a 165F to be more knock resistant.[/QUOTE
Sorry for the dumb question. Your probably already got something lower than stock in there.

Not at all a dumb question. Sorry for the late reply, I have been taking a break from the car. It's also a very timely post, I have a 154 degree T-Stat sitting on the workbench. I plan on installing that when the new silicone radiator hoses get delivered. I can almost guarantee that AJW did not installed the lower temp T-Stat.

[C.Plavan]

Look what saw the light of day yesterday. The Prototype chassis #000. The whole body can be removed in 10min with 1/4 turn fasteners.










Meanwhile, I'm adding my third oil cooler into the car drivers side front. It's the same size as other oil cooler on passenger side, but I moved the splash guard and cooler forward more away from wheel. I just need to go grab some bigger hose clamps for the bumper to oil cooler ducting hose.

Next up is installing a racing thermostat (coolant) and some silicon hoses, then bleed and fill back up. I'm shooting for testing on Friday. I hope it works, then I have the NASA championships at Laguna Seca at the end of the month.

[Frank818]

Wow, what a car. Super low but awesome.

Good luck on the oil, hopefully this time is the real deal.