Engine Help needed

[Someday I Suppose]

Hey guys, a little off topic, neighbor has a 2008 Impreza with 80K miles on it. Just had the timing belt replaced about 2 months ago, and have now had major engine damage. Car ran okay for about 2 months in between. Shop is saying a hydrolic pump failed and all the valves are bent?????

They are being told the best course of action is an engine swap.

Any thoughts, again input greatly appreciated.

Scott

[Silvertop]

Having a hard time understanding how a failed hydraulic pump leads to bent valves........ Seems more like a severe timing problem to me.

[Mechie3]

Only hydraulic pumps are oil and water. There are not hydraulic lifters to my knowledge in any WRX. Bent valves are usually caused by bad timing.

The OEM belt tensioner is hydraulic. It needs to be compressed slowly and stored in an upright position. If you compress it too fast or don't store it upright the seal will leak. If the seal leaks too much, the tensioner won't work and the belt will skip. These are interference engines. If timing gets off, pistons hit valves, then they bend.

[PhyrraM]

A layman could interpret a failed AVCS cam pully as a 'hydraulic pump'.

[metalmaker12]

Sounds like they messed up with the tensioner as mechie mentioned, and are trying to blame it on something else. Was the car running good before they touched it? Bent valves=bad timing from most likely the belt loosening up, which can happen over two weeks if they messed up the tensioner. Sounds like they need to make good on an engine, or engine build. Not cool

[longislandwrx]

There are not hydraulic lifters to my knowledge in any WRX.

Correct... there are no lifters.


All EJ motors are OHC... all 03 and up used various thicknesses of shimless buckets to set lash.

If there is damage the belt skipped quite a few teeth, most likely as stated before the tensioner was not compressed properly. look for wear on the belt where it may have been rubbing on the timing belt guide being as it was so loose.

There's also a chance he zinged the motor / over revved / missed a shift / floated the valves causing a hit. in that case the timing may still appear right.

If the shops trustworthy they'll give you a straight answer. If not they may reset the belt and say your fault.

[Someday I Suppose]

Thanks for the responses guys, the car was running fine before they took it in. Nieghbor actually just bought a new one and the 08 was being driven by his fiance, they were just trying to keep ahead of maintenance and be proactive.

The belt tensioner sounds to me like the most reasonable explanation. I don't think they are going to get a real straight answer from the guy who did the belt. They are working with someone else now as far as how to proceed.

That's the next question, what would be the better alternative for them, replace the engine, or have the head rebuilt and valves replaced? (Anyone know any good Subie shops in North Jersey?)

Scott

[BrandonDrums]

Yeah, it's the tensioner most likely. A standard impreza is single overhead cam with no AVCS, has no hydraulic pump and the only way to bend valves is to have a wristpin fail, throw a rod or have the cam timing as such that the valves open when the piston is in the neighborhood.

Sounds like they busted up the tensioner which isn't designed to be re-compressed. You can re-use them but you have to crank them down VERY slow to keep from damaging them.

The good news is you can swap a longblock over a weekend. Ask me how i know.

[bromikl]

Brandon, I'm guessing this is going to be warranty work. The shop that broke it should pay for fixing it. It may be "easy" to swap an engine, but anyone comfortable working on a Subaru engine would do his/her own timing belt replacement.

[longislandwrx]

pull the heads and see what the pistons look like... if all of the pieces are accounted for and the oil is clean you might be able to get away just getting the top end redone. If its on someone else's dollar, take no chances and replace everything.

looks like is about 45 minutes away from you but

http://azpinstalls.com/

[Someday I Suppose]

Not on someone else's dollar, the shop that did the belt is claiming they did nothing wrong and the failure isn't on them. They are quoting them $4000 to replace the engine with a used engine with $40k on it.

LI, you know I didn't even think about the pistons, of course you are right, they are probably abused as well, it sounded like multiple bent valves.


Thanks again guys.

[Mechie3]

Look at the tensioner. On the top is a black seal, if it's covered in oil, the seal blew.

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv284/tolishel/STiTimingBeltTensioner.jpg

[longislandwrx]

Even if they did everything properly, it is on them... Subaru guys know to ALWAYS replace the pulleys and tensioner and USUALLY the water pump with each timing belt change. It's about $140 extra in parts so why wouldn't you. If the tensioner was replaced, maybe you can go after the manufacturer for incidental damages. Hey this isn't a few dollars we are talking about, this is probably a $5000 repair.

I would have them agree to have a third party, perhaps a Subaru dealer take a look at it and do the post mortem, and tell you if the belt was actually changed. Maybe then they will cough up the money after that.

And I certainly would not trust a shop who can't do a timing belt to tackle an engine swap or believe them when they said a used motor had 40k on it. It's probably full of sawdust and Lucas sludge.

[jimgood]

I definitely would demand a NEW engine. There is no telling what kind of abuse a used engine has had.

[Someday I Suppose]

Guys, thanks again for the input, I agree I wouldnt be comfortable with the same shop doing the swap and would be pushing back on the damage itself. It's not my car so I'm just trying to give them as much info and advice as you guys can muster. I really appreciate it.

Scott

[BrandonDrums]

Guys, thanks again for the input, I agree I wouldnt be comfortable with the same shop doing the swap and would be pushing back on the damage itself. It's not my car so I'm just trying to give them as much info and advice as you guys can muster. I really appreciate it.

Scott

Right, this is a question of pushing for a refund plus reimbursement for the damage done. I'd never ever ever go to that shop again.

There are 2 ways for a car shop to make a name for itself. Either have a great personality up front who knows how to market the shop on oil changes and tuneups to get customers and not rely on quality work on the bigger jobs. Or a shop that always does the job right who earns the long-term customers after being screwed by a neighborhood personality.

Looks like your friend is going to graduate to a option B shop somehow.

[Someday I Suppose]

Brandon, I totally agree. I guess this is more muddy in that the shop is apparently one that the girlfriends dad uses, so he trusts the guy, even though every indication is that they are getting a raw deal.

Personally I may not be the brightest bulb in the box, but it doesn't take me to many times to get burned before I learn a lesson.

[metalmaker12]

Sounds like they reused the tensioner and did not compress it properly. It sounds like the tech was not too savy, cause on almost every modern engine you change out the tensioner, water pump, and belt etc depending on setup. If that happened to me I would be seriously POed