Engine Choices

[Xusia]

I'm new to Subaru's, so I don't really know what I should be looking for as a donor. Mine will be a daily driver, that may perhaps see the track from time to time. This means reliability and drive-ability trump all other goals. My HP goal - IF I can afford it - is ~340-350 whp. If I can't afford the parts/tuning to get there I'll probably just leave it stock (it's not like it'll be slow!). So what are the engine options? What are their relative advantages/disadvantages?

I had one person I spoke to privately recommend an EJ205 with an 18G-XT turbo. He also said the 2L is durable, so I assume an EJ205 is a 2L engine? Anyone have any thoughts on this recommendation or what kind of HP it would produce? Also, what cars have an EJ205?

Thanks in advance for educating my ignorant arse! :)

[PhyrraM]

To keep things simple, these are the stock motors/donor cars known to work at this time (FFR stated):

'02-'07 Impreza base 2.5 N/A, 165 HP, EJ251/EJ253
'02-'05 Impreza WRX, 2.0 liter turbo, 227 HP, EJ205
'06-'07 Impreza WRX, 2.5 liter turbo, 227 HP, EJ255 (official, concensus is the factory under rated it)

Engine-wise, the STIs will work, but not some of the suspension or transmission (FFR, officially)
'04-'07 Impreza WRX STI, 2.5 liter 300 HP, EJ257

The (basically stockish) trick would be to get the '06-'07 WRX 2.5 liter and add the STI turbo, intercooler, and engine tune for the 300HP rating.

I'm sure many others will walk you through the ENDLESS non-stock possibilities. It truely is "how fast can you afford to go?"

[PhilElement]

FF really needs to make the 6 speed fit and the only problem should be the length. The 5 speeds are really weak on the early 02-05 wrxs. They can break at 250 whp abused and babied 350 is borderline. They are also equipped with an open differential.

The 04 STIs has a viscous front differential and the hubs and axles are compatible with the wrx. The 05+ STIs have a torsen front differential but the axles and hubs are a little different. They have 5x114 hubs, bigger bearings, but also the strut mount is thicker. All can be swapped into a wrx however but not sure about the 818.

All the control arms can transfer but there are differences in sway bars.

Thanks,
Philip Grabow

[Street Rate Parts]

It would be nice but making the 6spd front drive only is a true *******. There is a ton of items in that tranny that cannot be removed (easy and cheap that is) and keeping them in makes the front drive option an issue.

I am actually working on this issue right now, I have two 6spds on the bench and I have been on the lathe and mill making parts to try to get this to work properly. I have a billion rally prep hours on Scoobies so the motor is already built for my first car..hahah The tranny....this is going to be a hard one.

[Xusia]

Thanks for the great info guys. This really helps!

[Etos]

Hey Phil, good to see more of the subaru community.

I kinda disagree with the 5 speed being an issue. They hold up well in AWD mode upto 350 so long as you don't dump the clutch. Not being able to spin the tires freely of excess power is what really killed the 5 speeds, along with bad driving. With a 2WD config it will allow excess power to bleed off as wheel spin.

What would be nice is if subaru were to supply an OEM solution by taking some of their earlier FWD transmissions, beefing up the gears and putting a nice diff in there. I'll be at SOA for the 48 hours charity drive and certainly bring up FFR and the possibility of making a crate kit much like GM and Ford are doing.

[Twinspool]

FF really needs to make the 6 speed fit and the only problem should be the length. The 5 speeds are really weak on the early 02-05 wrxs. They can break at 250 whp abused and babied 350 is borderline. They are also equipped with an open differential.


The transaxle strength has been discussed extensively, the 5 speed should take ample non-hamfisted performance driving in the 818.
5 gears or 6, who cares? I'd rather have good gear spacing and a 5 speed than bragging rights to a 6th gear. PPG 1-4 cluster anyone?

[Xusia]

So, is the reason to go with the 2.5L and not the 2.0L just because the STI has a 2.5L and that makes it easier to install the STI turbo onto the WRX 2.5L? Could the STI turbo be installed on the 2.0L? Not necessarily thinking that what I want, just looking at the options. I also don't know what I'll find in terms of a donor.

BTW, I REALLY appreciate everyone's help! :)


The (basically stockish) trick would be to get the '06-'07 WRX 2.5 liter and add the STI turbo, intercooler, and engine tune for the 300HP rating.

I'm sure many others will walk you through the ENDLESS non-stock possibilities. It truely is "how fast can you afford to go?"

[StatGSR]

^ no its just as easy to install an STI turbo on a 2.0, the benefit to the 2.5 is mostly just the better off boost torque and better spool time. Subaru engines/cars are like a bag of legos with only a few mega blocks mixed it, almost everything can be connected to something else with no modifications required.

[Street Rate Parts]

Ya but the 2.0l (n/a) is internally different than the 2.5 and can be a bear to deal with under high boost. Check the supports around the top of the sleeves at the water jacket. Totally different from 2.0 to 2.5 but is it really an issue? We are going to be stuck with 300hp tops through the 5spd. even with the reduced weight of the chassis I think that 300hp will be it. I have never had any luck with the 5spd at all...even treating it like it was made of eggs didnt help

So with that being said a 2.0 with the turbo will be fine if you keep the boost down...

If you want more its so easy to do with a Subi....but the 5spd becomes the fuse. Bring a broom basically

[BipDBo]

If you want more its so easy to do with a Subi....but the 5spd becomes the fuse. Bring a broom basically

A question for anyone who has more knowledge than me about these transmissions (which should be most of you): What parts of these 5sp gearboxes are first to fail? Depending on the answer to that question, the fact that the engine will be pushing an incredibly lighter car at only 2 of the wheels could make a very big difference in the life expectancy of the gearbox. How much of a difference would this make?

[Justen]

I'm no pro, but I think the consensus is that if you are going to push over 300 hp, you will want the PPG gear set, so my guess is that the gears themselves are the weak point.
Can anyone confirm this?
How hard/ time consuming is it to swap out the gears for the PPG ones?

[PhilElement]

The transaxle strength has been discussed extensively, the 5 speed should take ample non-hamfisted performance driving in the 818.
5 gears or 6, who cares? I'd rather have good gear spacing and a 5 speed than bragging rights to a 6th gear. PPG 1-4 cluster anyone?


Hey Phil, good to see more of the subaru community.

I kinda disagree with the 5 speed being an issue. They hold up well in AWD mode upto 350 so long as you don't dump the clutch. Not being able to spin the tires freely of excess power is what really killed the 5 speeds, along with bad driving. With a 2WD config it will allow excess power to bleed off as wheel spin.

What would be nice is if subaru were to supply an OEM solution by taking some of their earlier FWD transmissions, beefing up the gears and putting a nice diff in there. I'll be at SOA for the 48 hours charity drive and certainly bring up FFR and the possibility of making a crate kit much like GM and Ford are doing.

I disagree from experience. In all cases where I've broken 5 speeds or my customers have broken 5 speeds it's always from a roll and usually 3rd gear. Roll into it and break 3rd gear so it's a torque/HP issue more than a launch problem. This has been on 350+ whp cars. My 1st ever 5 speed must have been a gem because I ran in the high 11s at the drag strip but chipped first gear. My second OEM 5 speed broke 3rd gear from a roll again just over 350 whp. After building a number of 5 speeds with PPG gears they even have their limits and I've broken a helical 3rd gear in that transmission but at much higher power levels but again it was 3rd gear and about 600 whp. The straight cut gears are only about 20% stronger so really I think with a built 5 speed you shouldn't expect more than 600 HP out of them.

Now the Legacy GT 5 speed and the later 08+ WRX transmissions are much stronger. I ran my 08 WRX to 400 whp, never had an issue, and I raced that car. Even so I wouldn't push it that much farther and if you compare the gear size to the 6 speed you'll see why.

In terms of wheel spin helping, I don't disagree, but that's where two very different markets will have different needs. Your budget builders using OEM size wheels and street tires will be able to break loose but a racer on slicks or in my case someone who wants an 11-12 slick is going to have issues. To race this car in TTS or TTU you have to go against Corvette Z06s running 385 (TTS)-580 whp (TTU)!

Thanks,
Philip Grabow

[PhilElement]

I'm no pro, but I think the consensus is that if you are going to push over 300 hp, you will want the PPG gear set, so my guess is that the gears themselves are the weak point.
Can anyone confirm this?
How hard/ time consuming is it to swap out the gears for the PPG ones?

Yes basically. You could chance it at up to 350 whp but it's just a gamble unless you get the latest 5 speeds.

A PPG gearset is around $4k but with all the upgrades (speedo gear, interlocker, upgraded 5th gear syncro hub) you really need, it's $5k plus and don't forget you'll need to upgrade the differential at $800-1200. You could easily be hit $6k where 6 speeds are readily available for $3k to $3500 with shifter parts.

If 5 speed is going to be the only option given my history with the 5 speed vs. the 6 speed I would likely have to build a different car. I'm not going to be a typical builder however as we want to build a car on the GT1 scale. I think for the 02-04 5 speeds for those who would like 350+ go with the PPG synco, helical gear set and an upgraded differential. For 300 hp or less stock should be fine but the open differential is going to be an issue. If you can score a late model 5 speed from the Legacy GT or the 08+ WRX (it's possible the 06-07 are just as strong) you're good to 400 whp.

Thanks,
Philip Grabow

[Justen]

Are these prices serious?!?!
http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/page.asp?categoryid=14

$5,885.00 AUD (about the same USD) for the 1-4th straight cut gears? that's more than I plan on paying for a wrecked donor!

I guess you have to have deep pockets if you want to push high hp on this thing.
I think I'll stick to the 250 range and save my pennies for when i blow it up for the PPG's

[PhilElement]

It would be nice but making the 6spd front drive only is a true *******. There is a ton of items in that tranny that cannot be removed (easy and cheap that is) and keeping them in makes the front drive option an issue.

I am actually working on this issue right now, I have two 6spds on the bench and I have been on the lathe and mill making parts to try to get this to work properly. I have a billion rally prep hours on Scoobies so the motor is already built for my first car..hahah The tranny....this is going to be a hard one.

Good luck with this and I really hope you can figure a way to make it work for the high power guys. You would think it could be just as easy as installing a spool in place of the rear differential. This would lock the torque to both the front axles and the tail shaft. I'm guessing the back of the transmission would stick way out the back of the car though :)

[vozproto]

^ Yeah. I plan on starting with a base WRX, preferably 2.5L.

That way I have a good starting baseline and can upgrade as I go along.
I really don't see the purpose in upgrading everything before I know what I have.

That way I don't hemorrhage my budget before I ever start.
And the cool thing is that the subie community is pretty big out here. So I can always get a good chunk of my money back on any parts I swap out.

[PhilElement]

Are these prices serious?!?!
http://www.ppgearbox.com.au/page.asp?categoryid=14

$5,885.00 AUD (about the same USD) for the 1-4th straight cut gears? that's more than I plan on paying for a wrecked donor!

I guess you have to have deep pockets if you want to push high hp on this thing.
I think I'll stick to the 250 range and save my pennies for when i blow it up for the PPG's

An in-between solution would be hardened RA Subaru gears, cryo treating the gears, or using the newer 5 speeds I've mentioned. Let's not forget 300 whp on this thing is going to be really fast...similar power to weight ratio as a 500 hp STi!

[pressley311]

Will the legacy gt trans mount up to the EJ257 of the STi. I have the engine from my old 05 sti still with forged pistons stg2 cams and valve and spring kit (but still the crappy VF39 turbo), But could you go to like a 3076 turbo with out all ways heat soaking since it appears that you could not put a FMIC on the car?

[BipDBo]

I disagree from experience. In all cases where I've broken 5 speeds or my customers have broken 5 speeds it's always from a roll and usually 3rd gear.
Thanks,
Philip Grabow

That kind of answers my question. I would think a gearbox in a WRX would be more likely to fail at 2nd gear. The lower gear ratios are going to be more protected by the lower weight of the 818. When you get into the higher ratios, the tires are less willing to slip, so the driver can dump the clutch faster and the gears will absorb more "torque shock," to fabricate a term. Going into third gear, the lower weight of the car may give enough extra traction slip to prevent the too much torque from being applied to the gears. I'm no transmission expert, though. I'm just postulating.

[Xusia]

Does anyone know why the STI transmission won't work? The reason I ask is that I'm thinking the best route for me (definitely in the "budget builder" category) is hopefully buy the "Complete Kit" from FFR, and source an STI engine/transmission. That way I don't need a donor (the complete kits come with most of those parts new from FFR), and I get the most engine bang for my buck (and the better transmission - assuming it can work).


Engine-wise, the STIs will work, but not some of the suspension or transmission (FFR, officially)
'04-'07 Impreza WRX STI, 2.5 liter 300 HP, EJ257

[Etos]

I disagree from experience. In all cases where I've broken 5 speeds or my customers have broken 5 speeds it's always from a roll and usually 3rd gear. Roll into it and break 3rd gear so it's a torque/HP issue more than a launch problem. This has been on 350+ whp cars. My 1st ever 5 speed must have been a gem because I ran in the high 11s at the drag strip but chipped first gear. My second OEM 5 speed broke 3rd gear from a roll again just over 350 whp. After building a number of 5 speeds with PPG gears they even have their limits and I've broken a helical 3rd gear in that transmission but at much higher power levels but again it was 3rd gear and about 600 whp. The straight cut gears are only about 20% stronger so really I think with a built 5 speed you shouldn't expect more than 600 HP out of them.

Now the Legacy GT 5 speed and the later 08+ WRX transmissions are much stronger. I ran my 08 WRX to 400 whp, never had an issue, and I raced that car. Even so I wouldn't push it that much farther and if you compare the gear size to the 6 speed you'll see why.

In terms of wheel spin helping, I don't disagree, but that's where two very different markets will have different needs. Your budget builders using OEM size wheels and street tires will be able to break loose but a racer on slicks or in my case someone who wants an 11-12 slick is going to have issues. To race this car in TTS or TTU you have to go against Corvette Z06s running 385 (TTS)-580 whp (TTU)!

Thanks,
Philip Grabow

For every transmission that is grenaded at 300-350 there is another one holding up just fine. There's plenty of people who track and autox without a problem. Not to say you are a bad driver cause you obviously are not, but would you say you are good with finess or hammer on the anvil? Even abrupt on/off gas can cause quite some shock, it's not just shifting. There's people who were able to blow apart the all mighty STi transmission with relative ease just from bad driving/dumping the clutch.

I also doubt there's no way you can't fit a 6 speed. Will it look pretty? probably not but if it's a track rat like you're making I doubt you are going to care that much. Even then, do you really really believe you need more then an RA gear set for higher horsepower versions? You'd need to be running well over 400 to warrant it and 400hp should be downright scary in an 1800pound car.

[Xusia]

You say that like it's a BAD thing!


...and 400hp should be downright scary in an 1800pound car.

[Etos]

You say that like it's a BAD thing!

I believe in a balance. Sometimes there is such a thing as too much power. I learned that the hard way with a 560hp s2000.

[Xusia]

I agree. I was just being a smart arse... :)

[PhilElement]

Will the legacy gt trans mount up to the EJ257 of the STi. I have the engine from my old 05 sti still with forged pistons stg2 cams and valve and spring kit (but still the crappy VF39 turbo), But could you go to like a 3076 turbo with out all ways heat soaking since it appears that you could not put a FMIC on the car?

Yes but you will need a 5 speed clutch. It's basically the same case but it's somehow stronger internally. It's suggested that it has hardened gears as do the newer WRX transmission used with the 2.5 liter motors. The 2008+ WRX have some beefier components in them.

[PhilElement]

For every transmission that is grenaded at 300-350 there is another one holding up just fine. There's plenty of people who track and autox without a problem. Not to say you are a bad driver cause you obviously are not, but would you say you are good with finess or hammer on the anvil? Even abrupt on/off gas can cause quite some shock, it's not just shifting. There's people who were able to blow apart the all mighty STi transmission with relative ease just from bad driving/dumping the clutch.

I also doubt there's no way you can't fit a 6 speed. Will it look pretty? probably not but if it's a track rat like you're making I doubt you are going to care that much.

I would say early 5 speeds just about all break, it's the newer 06+ that are holding on well. Like I said my first one did really well.

Finesse matters and it's why some people have good luck and other don't but when it comes to 350+ it doesn't matter. Each one of my customers I tuned and sent home with 350+ was told not to dare go WOT in 1st or 2nd gear. I myself did the same thing and even on my 08 WRX I avoided it. :D This is why all of us broke 3rd gear and not 2nd because we all didn't temp fate. In most cases with higher power setups the reason why 3rd gear is more vulnerable is because you end up blasting through 1-2nd gear so peak torque isn't realized and once in third the engine has time to build full boost and therefore maximum power.

Take the personal experiences for what it's worth and if 50% handle the power fine and 50% don't well then you know your odds. My personal odds would be it's going to blow up don't waste your time with a 02-05 transmission since I'm not limiting myself to 300 HP.


Even then, do you really really believe you need more then an RA gear set for higher horsepower versions? You'd need to be running well over 400 to warrant it and 400hp should be downright scary in an 1800pound car.

We have broken many RA boxes, they are an improvement but no better than the 06+ OEM transmissions. I already race a scary car (love it!) and to match my current power to weight ratio (3180 lbs, 700 whp) I predict this car will need to make 485 whp if it weights 2200 fully prepped with driver. To be competitive against the 850-1000 whp cars I race against for overall fast time at the Ultimate Track Car Challenge (Glen Bunch Challenger, Ganassi built Car of Tomorrow Nascar) I will need this car to be putting out 675 whp at 2200 lbs. I just happen to have that engine and transmission ready to go :)

I think many, many, many people will be fine with the 5 speed but I don't want the design to exclude the 6 speed for those of us who need it. If the race body is a DP type then ugly won't matter since the body work would likely be open back there vs. a tail shaft sticking out a bumper

[PhilElement]

You say that like it's a BAD thing!

Car guys don't always get it! Absolutely ridiculous and scary is just right! What's so wrong with wanting a 9 second dragster that can turn. LOL!

[Street Rate Parts]

PhilElement the issues with the 6spd is two fold. First thing is they are fawking huge! about 240lbs if i remember correctly..ya monsters for sure. Second is the parts inside that do multiple things, the center diff is computer controlled (dccd) and also runs the internal oil pump. Its not as easy as pulling it out or welding it up.

Its a huge job but I am hoping to make it happen..it comes down to cost. If it will sell and it will fit....its going in.

Oh the 5spd fails because of a few reasons, the case is too weak to hold everything in place so it will flex under load. The 3rd gear failure is the outcome from torque passing from the lower to upper shaft and pushing the case halves apart throwing everything out of wack. The gears start to ride out, the tooth end snaps off, it gets jammed and boom!


Also the input shaft is teensy tiny and will snap like a twig, load up a 5spd and slide your foot off the side of the clutch....boom!!

It goes on and on.....

[Etos]

Phil, I think you are the only one crazy enough to want near 700hp in a 2100 pound car :D I don't even think an STi trans is going to hold up to that for long.

Let's take a step back for a minute and try to keep this discussion about what 99% of us are looking for. You as a shop who can some day be working on these for customers so it's probably more important to keep that perspective in check then your wild pony.

Considering no ones ever done anything like this(turning the trans to FWD config) it's hard to say what it will or will not hold. There's quite a few different variables(tires, year of trans, condition of used trans, power output) so that makes it even harder to guess.

Again it would be really nice if somehow we could get SOAs attention in them producing a FWD transmission that can handle most of the needs(06+ WRX trans quality) and the ability to swap out gears for bigger stronger ones for crazies like you who have a death wish :P This way you get a more compact, lighter(sti trans is OMG heavy), space friendly transmission.

[BrandonDrums]

Wow, this discussion again? There are tons of threads from April or March onwards about this stuff, we talked about it at great length.

First off, I and several friends with 300+ whp wrx's running 5 speeds have had no issues with the 5 speed, even after 200k miles. Remove 1500 lbs and make it 2wd and the 5 speed will probably have little issues because the fight is putting all the power to the ground.

Just don't drive like an a$$-hat, OEM transmissions on the mighty GT-R broke left and right too. Why? Nissan programmed the launch control to drop the hammer at 4500 rpm and had the foresight to void the warranty on the transmission if you used the launch control! How did Nissan fix their launch control problem? They changed the launch control rev-limit to 3000-3500 rpm, suddenly the transmissions stopped blowing up and somehow the 0-60 time got even faster.

I use a free ECU 'launch control' patch on my WRX and have the launching rev-limit set to 3500 rpm's. That's where the turbos just begin to spool and it's not so fast that my transmission destroys itself, I just flatfoot the throttle from a standstill and quickly engage the clutch (note, I didn't say "drop the clutch) and boom, everyone is behind me and my gears still have teeth to boot.

2nd, the STI's gearing is short, very short. On a 1800lb car, you'll be hurting your performance by having such short gear ratios, I mean 2 shifts to 60 when 60 will be coming in 4 seconds or less is just dumb. Also, achieving full boost is difficult in lower gears because the engine simply has too much mechanical advantage to build full boost easily, the engine will build revs faster than the turbo can build boost. Shed 1500 lbs, gearing as short as the 6 speed's will just make that even worse.

3rd, the STI transmission has a very complicated, very fancy and expensive center differential. It's a DCCD or Driver Controlled Center Differential. It's the bees knees for an AWD subie but in an 818 you'd have to weld it shut like a drift car or ditch it for a solid dummy piece in it's place which doesn't exist (while there are pre-made options available for the 5mt). That's like a $1k part that you have to destroy or remove.

If you buy an STI donor for an 818, you're literally going to be better off parting out the 6mt, it's a very popular upgrade for other Subies and buy a 5 speed to either drop right in or use the extra cash to upgrade it with PPG or RA gears and one of several viable and inexpensive front LSD upgrades.

If you're looking to put more than 400 whp in your 818, yeah, you might want a stronger box than a stock 5 speed but honestly the 6 speed isn't the answer to that in an 818. Fortunately, there are lots of strong aftermarket 5mt gear-sets available.

Save the 6 speeds for the AWD guys, they actually will benefit from them.

[SkiRideDrive]

While were on this topic, what modifications (and the relative cost of those modifications) would one need to get a 2.0 Liter WRX motor up to about 300 hp, which seems to be the consensus of where the stock tranny will no longer hold up reliably. I'm assuming this would include an up pipe, down pipe, bigger turbo, injectors, fuel pump, and tuning. Also, any discussion of much less expensive options and the power levels they can achieve would probably be helpful for many people here. Thanks for all the great info!

[BrandonDrums]

And to stay on topic...the STI engine is more or less the very same thing that comes in an 06+WRX or a Forester XT or a Legacy GT. The 04-07 STI long block has minor minor changes, mainly it has a slightly LOWER compression ratio vs. the other 2.5T subarus since the STI sees a higher effective compression ratio due to higher boost.

I have an 05 wrx with only a aftermarket turbo, upgraded injectors and a 04 STI intercooler on it, everything else is from my 05 which is the 2.0L engine. I just don't have anything to control the AVCS system so I just don't use it which is no big deal because AVCS is usually off by 3k rpm anyway, with a bigger turbo you never go below 3k rpm to begin with if you're trying to make power.

[crobin4]

Considering no ones ever done anything like this(turning the trans to FWD config) it's hard to say what it will or will not hold. There's quite a few different variables(tires, year of trans, condition of used trans, power output) so that makes it even harder to guess.

Again it would be really nice if somehow we could get SOAs attention in them producing a FWD transmission that can handle most of the needs(06+ WRX trans quality) and the ability to swap out gears for bigger stronger ones for crazies like you who have a death wish :P This way you get a more compact, lighter(sti trans is OMG heavy), space friendly transmission.

This is probably opening a can of worms on many levels:), given the trouble Dave, FFR, and GTM builders have had.:rolleyes: But, I think those of us that will pushing the limits of the 818 in any form of competition (other than a NASA Spec class), may need to look to Mendola for a suitable transaxle.
Now wait and think about it.:cool:
I'll help::D They already have following in the sand rail community (Subie Power has become VERY popular there), They have stuff to handle as much power as we would throw at it (within reason), We would have some choice in gearing, ( Factory Subaru 6-spd ratios would not be my 1st 2nd or 3rd choice for an 818 with a "built" engine ), Would likely be lighter and slight more compact than the 6-spd requiring minimal fabrication to the chassis and transaxle for fitment.:eek:
As a matter of fact, I'm going to their sight right now to investigate. I've been there several times to have a look around, but not for this.:cool:
Anyone care to join me?;)

[SkiRideDrive]

This is probably opening a can of worms on many levels:), given the trouble Dave, FFR, and GTM builders have had.:rolleyes: But, I think those of us that will pushing the limits of the 818 in any form of competition (other than a NASA Spec class), may need to look to Mendola for a suitable transaxle.
Now wait and think about it.:cool:
I'll help::D They already have following in the sand rail community (Subie Power has become VERY popular there), They have stuff to handle as much power as we would throw at it (within reason), We would have some choice in gearing, ( Factory Subaru 6-spd ratios would not be my 1st 2nd or 3rd choice for an 818 with a "built" engine ), Would likely be lighter and slight more compact than the 6-spd requiring minimal fabrication to the chassis and transaxle for fitment.:eek:
As a matter of fact, I'm going to their sight right now to investigate. I've been there several times to have a look around, but not for this.:cool:
Anyone care to join me?;)

http://mendeolamotors.com/trans-proto/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=29

not cheap... but a sequential could be fun.

[PhyrraM]

So, is the reason to go with the 2.5L and not the 2.0L just because the STI has a 2.5L and that makes it easier to install the STI turbo onto the WRX 2.5L? Could the STI turbo be installed on the 2.0L? Not necessarily thinking that what I want, just looking at the options. I also don't know what I'll find in terms of a donor.

BTW, I REALLY appreciate everyone's help! :)

Yes, you can put all the STI stuff on a 2.0, but then it's not a stock USDM combination and wil always be debated to no end.

The only reason I posted what you quoted above is because I, personally, only wish to discuss stock options. Talking aftermarket ALWAYS opens the door to the type of never ending discussion that has ensued. It's simply too much for a non-Subaru guy to follow. It's too much for many Subaru guys to follow.

I only mentioned a '06-'07 2.5 liter WRX with an STI turbo and intercooler because if you put a *stock STI tune* from a '04-'06 STI into the WRX ECU, it is essentially a stock combination and should perform well and reliably.


A warning for non-Subaru folks.......
Transmission talk will never end, and will never have a difinitive answer either. In AWD form, there is still no common demominator - even after 10 years of WRXs in America. After a few years of 818's on the road we MAY see a common trends, but it's just as likely that we may not.

[Xusia]

So to answer my own question, it's because the STI comes with the 6-speed transmission which is too big to fit (according to FFR, but I'm sure there are those will probaby be able to make it work)?


Does anyone know why the STI transmission won't work? The reason I ask is that I'm thinking the best route for me (definitely in the "budget builder" category) is hopefully buy the "Complete Kit" from FFR, and source an STI engine/transmission. That way I don't need a donor (the complete kits come with most of those parts new from FFR), and I get the most engine bang for my buck (and the better transmission - assuming it can work).

[PhyrraM]

Yes, the STI 6 speed is big - however I don't include it (at this time) because FFR is only officially supporting the 5 speed. The AWD to 2WD parts are going to be included in the the kit. So, 6 speed AWD to 2WD parts would be "on the builder".

[Etos]

Wow, this discussion again? There are tons of threads from April or March onwards about this stuff, we talked about it at great length.

As I'm sure you can tell we weren't around for that. There is no need to act like we have all been around since day 1.


While were on this topic, what modifications (and the relative cost of those modifications) would one need to get a 2.0 Liter WRX motor up to about 300 hp

Not alot. Check NASIOCs Proven Power Bragging and you'll see plenty of WRXes go into 300WHP(with AWD loss) very easily.


And to stay on topic...the STI engine is more or less the very same thing that comes in an 06+WRX or a Forester XT or a Legacy GT. The 04-07 STI long block has minor minor changes, mainly it has a slightly LOWER compression ratio vs. the other 2.5T subarus since the STI sees a higher effective compression ratio due to higher boost.

This info is incorrect. There are drastic differences between the EJ255 and 257. The heads are much much different too. It's not the easy lego put together people associate subaru with. Subarus are like legos but they need to be fitted together correctly or else you have massive problems like the many before. Check hybrid builds and see how long and how much trouble people went through and still go through today with them. There's even 1 thread in built motor with a guy who ended up with over 10:1 CR cause the shop didn't know D25 heads have a smaller chamber then the B25. Subarus are finicky and must require ALOT of attention to detail.


A warning for non-Subaru folks.......
Transmission talk will never end, and will never have a difinitive answer either. In AWD form, there is still no common demominator - even after 10 years of WRXs in America. After a few years of 818's on the road we MAY see a common trends, but it's just as likely that we may not.

There are many common trends with trans issues. The first and foremost always will be people thinking their AWD split case trans can handle 300+hp clutch dumps like it was their old civic or mustang. Also just bad driving, shock is shock and the more the gears see the more fatigue they endure and eventually fail. The 2nd like others mentioned is the split case design and how it allows the gears to shift ever so slightly, enough to cause the teeth to take extra stress and boom.

[BrandonDrums]

.........

I only mentioned a '06-'07 2.5 liter WRX with an STI turbo and intercooler because if you put a *stock STI tune* from a '04-'06 STI into the WRX ECU, it is essentially a stock combination and should perform well and reliably.

........

To begin with, this is essentially what I did with my 05 wrx. I have a 16 bit ECU so the tune doesn't directly convert over, some of the columns we had to skip to copy the values for timing and fueling but it worked great...on an 06/07 wrx, converting over an STI tune aside from some of the gear-dependent boost control maps should nearly be a full on copy and paste maneuver in ECU flash or RomRaider.

[BrandonDrums]

This info is incorrect. There are drastic differences between the EJ255 and 257. The heads are much much different too. It's not the easy lego put together people associate subaru with. Subarus are like legos but they need to be fitted together correctly or else you have massive problems like the many before. Check hybrid builds and see how long and how much trouble people went through and still go through today with them. There's even 1 thread in built motor with a guy who ended up with over 10:1 CR cause the shop didn't know D25 heads have a smaller chamber then the B25. Subarus are finicky and must require ALOT of attention to detail.



The info I provided stating 2.5T engines from USDM Subaru's being more or less the same isn't that far off. There are differences, namely with the pistons and head chambers as you pointed out but that's not all that relevant to the discussion of OEM engine options which is the point of this thread. If anyone wants to get nitty gritty on the specific differences between these 2 engine variants, here's a good thread where some of the misconceptions about the differences of the 255 and 257 are somewhat put to rest http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1667168

To your point though, if you're splitting a block to do mods to it, then you absolutely need to pay attention like you said but that goes for every engine. If your engine builder isn't blueprinting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_tuning#Blueprinting) the engine and recording all the exact specs along the build, then I'd argue they aren't paying enough attention if you are paying them money to do the work. But that's not what we're discussing here.

To my point if you're sourcing a Stock 2.5T as this thread is talking about OEM engine options, not built or aftermarket, you can essentially treat them as interchangeable. Also, because we're talking about stock engine options and I was simply talking about OEM 2.5T longblocks, any discussion about 'hybrid' longblocks aka 2.5 shortblock w/ 2.0 heads aren't even on the radar of the conversation.

Not saying you're wrong but just saying we're having a far more simple and basic conversation here for the sake of non-subie guys looking for OEM engine choices.

[Etos]

Sorry, I see "these 2.5ls are all the same cause they are 2.5" and it always bothers me to see people say that. More so that others will read and then start making huge mistakes based on that.

[crobin4]

http://mendeolamotors.com/trans-proto/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=29

not cheap... but a sequential could be fun.

I think I can get a discount if I spell his name correctly.:p
I think this was one of the first requirements for Dave getting such a good price for the GTM guys.;)

I'm curious though. Lots of good ratios available. I still don't think I will need one, but some of us might. I do think it would more cost effective in the end though vs. Subie 6-spd.

I don't know just throwing it out there as a possibility.:)

I'm sort of thinking that perhaps a slightly modified version of the GTM tranny they're doing may be the ticket for say Phil @ Element ( oooo, spelled it right can I get a discount on a tune? ) or others like him.

[crobin4]

This concludes my contribution to the thread jacking of thread named Engine Choices.:)

[Evan78]

For those who don't know of him, PhilElement is Phil Grabrow, owner (I assume) of Element Tuning (http://elementtuning.com/) and driver of their time attack Subaru. You can read his posts on Nasioc under the screen name "Element Tuning (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/member.php?u=54918)". I don't know him personally or even follow time attack, but I thought I'd throw out a little info so that people are aware of where he is coming from. Needless to say, he has more experience than the average Subaru owner.

[Evan78]

2nd, the STI's gearing is short, very short. On a 1800lb car, you'll be hurting your performance by having such short gear ratios, I mean 2 shifts to 60 when 60 will be coming in 4 seconds or less is just dumb. Also, achieving full boost is difficult in lower gears because the engine simply has too much mechanical advantage to build full boost easily, the engine will build revs faster than the turbo can build boost. Shed 1500 lbs, gearing as short as the 6 speed's will just make that even worse.This is not an important point, but I just want to point out what I see as a flaw in your logic here because I see the same argument made occasionally. Building full boost in every gear should not be your target. Going fast should be. Building revs faster than the turbo can build boost is a good thing. Peak boost is achieved at a higher RPM in 1st gear than in 5th, but you don't see people arguing that a taller 1st gear would result in faster times.

Everything is about compromises, and you may very well be right that the 5 speed ratios are better than the 6 speed ratios, but it would not be due to the engine having less mechanical advantage and is achieving higher boost levels. It would be simply that the time spent shifting could eliminate the gains achieved by the lower gear ratios.

Unless all your races end at 60mph (or you're really into auto-x), does it really matter if your 2-3 shift is at 55 or 65? If you're heading for 80, you have to shift twice either way.

[Xusia]

I really want to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread thus far. It's been incredibly helpful to me, and I've learned a lot!

Until FFR releases more details on the kit, I can't make any final decisions, but I'm thinking 1 of the following 2 options is likely:
1. Buy the basic kit and obtain an '07 WRX as a donor. If possible, outfit it with an STI turbo and tune.
2. Buy the complete kit and source an '07 STI engine and an '07 5-speed transmission (which if I understand correctly, should hold up OK).

I'm leaning toward #2 if it's not out of my budget because it uses more parts that would be new, and eliminates the need to remove said parts from the donor (making it "easier"). Still, according to folks on this thread, either way should be good for around 300 whp - less than I really wanted, but based on what I've learned, it's where I should be to meet my primary goals. If newer components wind up fitting OK, I would prefer them, but I don't want to have to fabricate or make any serious alterations to do it.

Again, a sincere and heartfelt thanks to all of you. You've been great. :) And this thank you is not a call to end the thread by any means! I'm sure I'll continue to learn more as the discussion continues. :D

[Street Rate Parts]

Or #3, buy a complete build kit.

I am working on getting one together and once the powers that be release the parts list and get back to me on sponsoring I can post up pricing etc...

I know I am buying a kit when they are released (if the body looks right)...hell the motor is already sitting on the stand in the engine room all done, waiting.....sigh

[DrieStone]

I really want to thank everyone that has contributed to this thread thus far. It's been incredibly helpful to me, and I've learned a lot!

Until FFR releases more details on the kit, I can't make any final decisions, but I'm thinking 1 of the following 2 options is likely:
1. Buy the basic kit and obtain an '07 WRX as a donor. If possible, outfit it with an STI turbo and tune.
2. Buy the complete kit and source an '07 STI engine and an '07 5-speed transmission (which if I understand correctly, should hold up OK).

I'm leaning toward #2 if it's not out of my budget because it uses more parts that would be new, and eliminates the need to remove said parts from the donor (making it "easier"). Still, according to folks on this thread, either way should be good for around 300 whp - less than I really wanted, but based on what I've learned, it's where I should be to meet my primary goals. If newer components wind up fitting OK, I would prefer them, but I don't want to have to fabricate or make any serious alterations to do it.

Again, a sincere and heartfelt thanks to all of you. You've been great. :) And this thank you is not a call to end the thread by any means! I'm sure I'll continue to learn more as the discussion continues. :D

Personally I'm going to do something like #1 drive it for a year to decide what I want from there. Then, especially because the donor is probably going to have 60-100k on the clock, do an engine rebuild/upgrade. Even a tired motor putting out less than the stock 227 is going to rock, and since the car is going to be used 99.9% on public roads 300HP is going to be plenty of insanity for me.

[Xusia]

I assume said kit would include the parts that the FFR "complete" kit doesn't? Meaning NO sourcing of ANY parts? Depending on price, that's an appealing option. I don't have a lot of time, so the less I spend looking for stuff, the more I can spend building it!


Or #3, buy a complete build kit.

I am working on getting one together and once the powers that be release the parts list and get back to me on sponsoring I can post up pricing etc...

I know I am buying a kit when they are released (if the body looks right)...hell the motor is already sitting on the stand in the engine room all done, waiting.....sigh

[imom]

To all the subbie folks here...do you know if the BRZ 2.0 engine will work? Is it the similar design as before but with direct injection from toyota... I'm curious to know of the BRZ as being completely brand new and unproven or it's from past family of 2.0 engines from Subaru. That said... curious to know if the BRZ would be smaller to take up less valuable engine space for the 818.

[PhyrraM]

To all the subbie folks here...do you know if the BRZ 2.0 engine will work? Is it the similar design as before but with direct injection from toyota... I'm curious to know of the BRZ as being completely brand new and unproven or it's from past family of 2.0 engines from Subaru. That said... curious to know if the BRZ would be smaller to take up less valuable engine space for the 818.

The big question for now is if they changed the bellhousing and/or motor mounts for the RWD only chassis. If they DID NOT, then the BRZ motor should bolt up just fine (electronics, as always, are another matter).

As soon as the FSMs are out for either the Subaru or Toyota, the answer will be all over Nasioc.

[Etos]

The big question for now is if they changed the bellhousing and/or motor mounts for the RWD only chassis. If they DID NOT, then the BRZ motor should bolt up just fine (electronics, as always, are another matter).

As soon as the FSMs are out for either the Subaru or Toyota, the answer will be all over Nasioc.

BRZ will be using a variant of the FB2xx series engines. The mounting points are different but I do not believe the bellhousing is. They first secretly released the FB engines on foresters using the same 4EAT from the EJ powered cars. I'm sure there would be an easy solution to get it to mount up.

Honestly I would stay far away from an FB engine. It's the first new engine subaru has made from the ground up in over 20 years. It's unproven in not just performance but reliability(which going back to the foresters, they had quite a few issues).

The FB is sorta a step back in terms of performance. It's a more economical engine in every shape. It even requires 0-20 weight oil. Maybe when they release a forced induction version and has seen a few years on the road I would consider it. That's at least 3-4 years away.

[PhilElement]

I'm hearing conflicting information regarding the engine and transmission mounting but hopefully it's compatible. Let's face it the FRS/BRZ is competition for the 818 if its priced under $25. We will be buying whichever comes out first and starting the motor R&D as soon as possible.

The motor however is not as performance oriented and will be tough to bring it to the performance level of the STIs engines. For the 818 the EJ motors will be the best choice as they are proven and mod well.

[BrandonDrums]

This is not an important point, but I just want to point out what I see as a flaw in your logic here because I see the same argument made occasionally. Building full boost in every gear should not be your target. Going fast should be. Building revs faster than the turbo can build boost is a good thing. Peak boost is achieved at a higher RPM in 1st gear than in 5th, but you don't see people arguing that a taller 1st gear would result in faster times.

Everything is about compromises, and you may very well be right that the 5 speed ratios are better than the 6 speed ratios, but it would not be due to the engine having less mechanical advantage and is achieving higher boost levels. It would be simply that the time spent shifting could eliminate the gains achieved by the lower gear ratios.

Unless all your races end at 60mph (or you're really into auto-x), does it really matter if your 2-3 shift is at 55 or 65? If you're heading for 80, you have to shift twice either way.

Actually, people do argue that a taller 1st gear will yield faster times. Many of the most popular aftermarket gearsets for the 5mt provides a taller 1st through 3rd gears(yet tighter spaced) for this very reason. Now, building full boost isn't the absolute goal but saying that building revs faster than the turbo is a good thing is misleading...I can do that in neutral quite well...

I got the below chart from this link. It shows popular aftermarket gearset ratios for subarus with the oem ratios up top. Lower numbers mean taller gears. Nearly all of the sets are taller than stock.
http://www.wrxtuners.com/forums/f69/transmission-faq-read-if-you-thinking-upgrading-13846/

What gear ratio choices are available?
3.636 (1st) 2.375 (2nd) 1.761 (3rd) 1.346 (4th) 0.971 (5th) 0.756 (6th) STi (USDM)
3.454 (1st) 1.947 (2nd) 1.366 (3rd) 0.972 (4th) 0.738 (5th) Stock WRX
3.454 (1st) 2.062 (2nd) 1.448 (3rd) 1.088 (4th) 0.780 (5th) Stock RS
3.166 (1st) 1.882 (2nd) 1.296 (3rd) 0.972 (4th) 0.738 (5th) STi (Non-RA)(5 speed)
3.083 (1st) 2.062 (2nd) 1.545 (3rd) 1.151 (4th) 0.825 (5th) STi RA(5 speed)
3.167 (1st) 2.267 (2nd) 1.667 (3rd) 1.250 (4th) 0.964 (5th) Kaaz
3.083 (1st) 2.154 (2nd) 1.500 (3rd) 1.059 (4th) 0.738 (5th) TurboXS
3.180 (1st) 1.940 (2nd) 1.350 (3rd) 0.966 (4th) 0.740 (5th) Chalak (now PAR)
3.180 (1st) 1.910 (2nd) 1.350 (3rd) 0.967 (4th) 0.825 or 0.738 (5th) PAR Street Perf.-Drag
2.916 (1st) 1.910 (2nd) 1.500 (3rd) 1.160 (4th) 0.920 or 0.880 (5th) PAR Rally-Track
3.000 (1st) 2.000 (2nd) 1.480 (3rd) 1.170 (4th) 0.963 (5th) Sport Gimmie Gears
3.450 (1st) 1.940 (2nd) 1.360 (3rd) 0.960 (4th) 0.760 (5th) Street Gimmie Gears
3.000 (1st) 2.000 (2nd) 1.480 (3rd) 1.170 (4th) 0.760 (5th) Sport/Street Gimmie Gears
3.454 (1st) 1.947 (2nd) 1.366 (3rd) 0.963 (4th) 0.738 (5th) APS
2.917 (1st) 2.090 (2nd) 1.556 (3rd) 1.176 (4th) 0.900 (5th) Group N Quaife
2.917 (1st) 2.090 (2nd) 1.556 (3rd) 1.250 (4th) 0.962 (5th) Clubman Quaife
3.454 (1st) 2.333 (2nd) 1.750 (3rd) 1.354 (4th) 0.972 (5th) Synchro Quaife
3.180 (1st) 1.860 (2nd) 1.320 (3rd) 0.950 (4th) 0.738 (5th) PPG SC dog&synchro
3.080 (1st) 2.060 (2nd) 1.500 (3rd) 1.050 (4th) 0.738 (5th) PPG HC dog
3.170 (1st) 1.860 (2nd) 1.320 (3rd) 0.950 (4th) 0.738 (5th) PPG HC syncro

[Evan78]

Actually, people do argue that a taller 1st gear will yield faster times. Many of the most popular aftermarket gearsets for the 5mt provides a taller 1st through 3rd gears(yet tighter spaced) for this very reason. Now, building full boost isn't the absolute goal but saying that building revs faster than the turbo is a good thing is misleading...I can do that in neutral quite well...
I didn't think it needed to be stated that I was referring to building RPM while the car is in gear.

If I were changing gear ratios, I would want a taller 1st also, but not because I care about 0-60 times. Just the opposite in fact. I would happily trade off any changes in 0-60 times for a taller 1st gear that I can use in tight corners more often.

[BrandonDrums]

I didn't think it needed to be stated that I was referring to building RPM while the car is in gear.

If I were changing gear ratios, I would want a taller 1st also, but not because I care about 0-60 times. Just the opposite in fact. I would happily trade off any changes in 0-60 times for a taller 1st gear that I can use in tight corners more often.

Well yes, I was just making an example really. I'm also not talking about just 0-60 times either, I think the fact that the majority of aftermarket performance gearsets for these vehicles suggest that taller gears as a whole work better for these cars.

It makes sense too, the WRX has a 2k towing rating, the STI has a 2500lb tow rating which is really quite a bit when you get down to it. They were built for street speeds and for being multipurpose sportscars. If you want your WRX/STI powered vehicle to be a real race car, having slightly taller 1st-3rd gears makes sense. I drive my 5mt every day and i literally pull as hard of acceleration G's in 3rd gear as I do in 2nd gear. If my car was geared more for outright performance, I should feel the maximum amount of acceleration in 1st, then 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th should be the slowest obviously. Instead, I'm pretty sure 3rd gear is my back into the seat gear, even more-so than 1st which is done in like .5 seconds.

I believe in a very tightly matched set of gears so you can keep the car in the powerband though, I still think people get that confused with the overall ratios.

[gwader]

Ducati powered!
http://www.spartan-v.com/spartan-v.com/Home.html

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Spartan-1.jpg

[Evan78]

I'm guessing that you perceive 3rd gear as being strongest because you stay in that gear longer than 1st and 2nd. Lets break down some approximate numbers for a WRX. 0-60 in 6 seconds, and a 14 second quarter mile time reaching 95mph. You spend 6 seconds in gears 1 and 2 and accelerate from rest to 60mph. It then takes 8 seconds to go from 60 to 95mph. Obviously, your rate of acceleration in 3rd gear is much less than gears 1 and 2. I'm neglecting drag here, which is significant, but not more significant than the mechanical advantage of the gear ratios.

Regarding aftermarket gearsets, I think 1st is taller for the reason I mentioned earlier - it makes it more usable for slow corners, rather than a gear you only use for starting from rest.

What do you see as the significance of the tow ratings? It seems you didn't finish that thought.

I wonder how much boost curves differ between gears if the X axis is time instead of RPM.

[fateo66]

It would be nice but making the 6spd front drive only is a true *******. There is a ton of items in that tranny that cannot be removed (easy and cheap that is) and keeping them in makes the front drive option an issue.

I am actually working on this issue right now, I have two 6spds on the bench and I have been on the lathe and mill making parts to try to get this to work properly. I have a billion rally prep hours on Scoobies so the motor is already built for my first car..hahah The tranny....this is going to be a hard one.



3rd, the STI transmission has a very complicated, very fancy and expensive center differential. It's a DCCD or Driver Controlled Center Differential. It's the bees knees for an AWD subie but in an 818 you'd have to weld it shut like a drift car or ditch it for a solid dummy piece in it's place which doesn't exist (while there are pre-made options available for the 5mt). That's like a $1k part that you have to destroy or remove.


They already exist and are around $400 from what I hear


http://www.possumbourne.co.nz/trans_diff_parts.html

http://www.possumbourne.co.nz/images/products/Center-Diff-locking-tube1.jpg

[BipDBo]

Subaru hopes to get 270 out of there 2.0 for the near future WRX.
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/08/next-gen-subaru-wrx-targeting-downsized-2-0-liter-four-thats-up/

I'd like to know if they plan to do this by boosting the direct injected BRZ engine.

[Evan78]

From you link (emphasis mine):


WRX. Those three letters tell automotive enthusiasts the world over that they are not dealing with an ordinary Impreza, and it all began in rally racing with a 2.0-liter turbocharged flat-four engine. Though some models – including the current WRX and STI in the United States – had engines displacing as much as 2.5 liters, the WRX earned its reputation with 2.0 liters, and that's the displacement specified for competition use.

According to Motor Trend, the 2013 WRX, which will likely debut sometime in 2012, will go back to its original engine size. The new powerplant will reportedly be based on the engine found in the 2013 Subaru BRZ, a clean-sheet design for Subaru, with the addition of the expected turbocharger. That ought to bring power up from 200 horsepower to about 270.

Now we come to the question of what platform in which the engine will reside. While common sense would dictate that the latest version of the Impreza, which was recently released as a 2012 model, would get the WRX treatment, we've heard rumblings that Subaru would keep its current WRX shell around for a few more years while it continues development of the next chassis. Only time will tell.

[Steve91T]

Ducati powered!
http://www.spartan-v.com/spartan-v.com/Home.html

http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Spartan-1.jpg


Not that this power plant would work with the 818, but I would buy this thing for the sound it must produce alone!

[Evan78]

Not that this power plant would work with the 818, but I would buy this thing for the sound it must produce alone!
110,000 Australian = 112,000 USD

Only weighs 350kg though! (170hp)

818 would need 400hp for the same power to weight ratio.

[Twinspool]

Not that this power plant would work with the 818, but I would buy this thing for the sound it must produce alone!

The sound of cursing while adjusting desmo valves?

I keed. :-)

[Xusia]

I keed. :-)

But only a little! LOL

[BrandonDrums]

They already exist and are around $400 from what I hear


http://www.possumbourne.co.nz/trans_diff_parts.html

http://www.possumbourne.co.nz/images/products/Center-Diff-locking-tube1.jpg

Oh awesome! That's pretty cool! Would that require keeping the center diff housing in place though? If it does, the tranny will be sticking way out past the bumper on the 818...

[BrandonDrums]

Subaru hopes to get 270 out of there 2.0 for the near future WRX.
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/08/next-gen-subaru-wrx-targeting-downsized-2-0-liter-four-thats-up/

I'd like to know if they plan to do this by boosting the direct injected BRZ engine.

It sounds like the new WRX will use a turbo version of the BRZ engine but I imagine they'd have variable valve timing on the intake and exhaust vs. just the intake as on the BRZ.

The JDM STI's have always been 2.0L putting out 300+ hp so I think here pretty soon they'll be saying that they'll be using a better tuned version of that same engine on the STI as well keeping 2.0L across the line. I'm glad about this, at one point they were talking about 1.8L and smaller engines in the next gen WRX and STI.

Also, I read about the BRZ chassis that subaru developed it to be lengthened and accept the AWD system. I think the next WRX and STI which are being split from the Impreza line will be on the BRZ platform and will return to being 2 doors or even 3 door hatch like many of the WRC cars these days. It will be interesting to see.

To bad they aren't doing a mid-engine version, otherwise they'd have my business haha.

[Etos]

It sounds like the new WRX will use a turbo version of the BRZ engine but I imagine they'd have variable valve timing on the intake and exhaust vs. just the intake as on the BRZ.

The JDM STI's have always been 2.0L putting out 300+ hp so I think here pretty soon they'll be saying that they'll be using a better tuned version of that same engine on the STI as well keeping 2.0L across the line. I'm glad about this, at one point they were talking about 1.8L and smaller engines in the next gen WRX and STI.

Also, I read about the BRZ chassis that subaru developed it to be lengthened and accept the AWD system. I think the next WRX and STI which are being split from the Impreza line will be on the BRZ platform and will return to being 2 doors or even 3 door hatch like many of the WRC cars these days. It will be interesting to see.

To bad they aren't doing a mid-engine version, otherwise they'd have my business haha.


I doubt this highly. They already have a better impreza platform from the 08-11 coming out. They already stated there will be an STi version of the BRZ. The BRZ will most likely use the 1.6T for the turbo version.

People who get the WRX/STi don't just want a performance car, they want all the practicality too. SOA expressed that they don't want to further get into the coupe market. Coupes are the poorest selling cars by a HUGE margin. I believe there was also a video from the JP auto show where they said they are bringing back the WRX/STi as 2.0ts of the new impreza.

[Oppenheimer]

I doubt this highly. They already have a better impreza platform from the 08-11 coming out. ...SOA expressed that they don't want to further get into the coupe market. Coupes are the poorest selling cars by a HUGE margin. I believe there was also a video from the JP auto show where they said they are bringing back the WRX/STi as 2.0ts of the new impreza.

Perhaps not exclusively as a coupe (though I think for a better WRC entry they will offer that, at least in some markets), but I do believe the WRX/STi are going to split paths from the Impreza line. The extra cost & weight of the solid structure required for performance applications is a compromise to the economy aspirations of the base Impreza, and there are Impreza economy compromises that aren't ideal for the performance aspirations of the WRX/STi.

[Etos]

Perhaps not exclusively as a coupe (though I think for a better WRC entry they will offer that, at least in some markets), but I do believe the WRX/STi are going to split paths from the Impreza line. The extra cost & weight of the solid structure required for performance applications is a compromise to the economy aspirations of the base Impreza, and there are Impreza economy compromises that aren't ideal for the performance aspirations of the WRX/STi.

Except SOA already announced the WRX/STi for the impreza. The new impreza is also a huge step up from the old one. It's a whole 150 pounds lighter and more room. There's no reason for them not to use the new impreza for their WRX/STi line which it has for almost 2 decades now.

[PhilElement]

Well yes, I was just making an example really. I'm also not talking about just 0-60 times either, I think the fact that the majority of aftermarket performance gearsets for these vehicles suggest that taller gears as a whole work better for these cars.

It makes sense too, the WRX has a 2k towing rating, the STI has a 2500lb tow rating which is really quite a bit when you get down to it. They were built for street speeds and for being multipurpose sportscars. If you want your WRX/STI powered vehicle to be a real race car, having slightly taller 1st-3rd gears makes sense. I drive my 5mt every day and i literally pull as hard of acceleration G's in 3rd gear as I do in 2nd gear. If my car was geared more for outright performance, I should feel the maximum amount of acceleration in 1st, then 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th should be the slowest obviously. Instead, I'm pretty sure 3rd gear is my back into the seat gear, even more-so than 1st which is done in like .5 seconds.

I believe in a very tightly matched set of gears so you can keep the car in the powerband though, I still think people get that confused with the overall ratios.

That's not really the case overall. The reason the stronger 5 speed gears change has to do with available gearing for the larger and stronger teeth along with the fact that most get the stronger box for drag racing. The drag racing ratios are the most popular in the US because that's what the average enthusiast does but they also offer shorter gears for rally.

The 6 speed was originally designed for the JDM 2.0 which pulled to 8k RPM from the factory and when you run that kind of RPM the 04-06 6 speeds are phenomenal on the track. I can pull just about 70 mph out of 2nd gear on my race car. Fast forward if you like to 1:14 and in 2nd gear exiting "oak tree." My car does run larger wheels/tire and I have up to 8500 RPM if I need it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FipoBNFzLf0

My point is that everyone needs something different. Without some extra RPM the 04-06 6 speed requires more shifting but the car will accelerate faster than the 5 speed. The newer 07+ 6 speeds have similar gear ratios to the 5 speed boxes and many prefer them for drag racing and or street. For smaller sized turbochargers the 5 speed gearing is fine but for larger turbochargers that shift the power to the right the 6 speeds with the shorter gear ratios are really sweet.

Thanks,
Philip Grabow

[crobin4]

That's not really the case overall. The reason the stronger 5 speed gears change has to do with available gearing for the larger and stronger teeth along with the fact that most get the stronger box for drag racing. The drag racing ratios are the most popular in the US because that's what the average enthusiast does but they also offer shorter gears for rally.

The 6 speed was originally designed for the JDM 2.0 which pulled to 8k RPM from the factory and when you run that kind of RPM the 04-06 6 speeds are phenomenal on the track. I can pull just about 70 mph out of 2nd gear on my race car. Fast forward if you like to 1:14 and in 2nd gear exiting "oak tree." My car does run larger wheels/tire and I have up to 8500 RPM if I need it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FipoBNFzLf0

My point is that everyone needs something different. Without some extra RPM the 04-06 6 speed requires more shifting but the car will accelerate faster than the 5 speed. The newer 07+ 6 speeds have similar gear ratios to the 5 speed boxes and many prefer them for drag racing and or street. For smaller sized turbochargers the 5 speed gearing is fine but for larger turbochargers that shift the power to the right the 6 speeds with the shorter gear ratios are really sweet.

Thanks,
Philip Grabow


Thanks Phil!:cool:

[Xusia]

Dude, that is one rockin' video. I love the combined views with the accelerometer, track position, etc. :)

[BrandonDrums]

That's not really the case overall. The reason the stronger 5 speed gears change has to do with available gearing for the larger and stronger teeth along with the fact that most get the stronger box for drag racing. The drag racing ratios are the most popular in the US because that's what the average enthusiast does but they also offer shorter gears for rally.

The 6 speed was originally designed for the JDM 2.0 which pulled to 8k RPM from the factory and when you run that kind of RPM the 04-06 6 speeds are phenomenal on the track. I can pull just about 70 mph out of 2nd gear on my race car. Fast forward if you like to 1:14 and in 2nd gear exiting "oak tree." My car does run larger wheels/tire and I have up to 8500 RPM if I need it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FipoBNFzLf0

My point is that everyone needs something different. Without some extra RPM the 04-06 6 speed requires more shifting but the car will accelerate faster than the 5 speed. The newer 07+ 6 speeds have similar gear ratios to the 5 speed boxes and many prefer them for drag racing and or street. For smaller sized turbochargers the 5 speed gearing is fine but for larger turbochargers that shift the power to the right the 6 speeds with the shorter gear ratios are really sweet.

Thanks,
Philip Grabow

Sure, for a JDM STI with less torque and 2k more revs to play with, shorter ratios make sense. I still say shaving 1500lbs from the vehicle would have you wanting taller gearing overall, you can hit redline at higher speeds at the same rate with 15k lbs less to haul around. You also have larger wheels which make your gearing taller and you have 2k more revs to play with over a stock 2.5L wrx or sti and still 1500 more than a 2.0 usdm wrx making some of the shortcomings I'm referencing about shorter gears on these cars a moot point.

Also, in terms of the USDM STI, I wouldn't say the 6 speed accelerates faster than the 5 speed, not even the 07+ (they changed 4th-6th to be taller but 1st-3rd remain pretty close I believe).

The current 2011 STI with 305 HP is rated 0-60 by most formal tests to be around 5-5.2 seconds and rated on the 1/4 mile by similar tests to be in the 13.35-13.5 second range. The most recent WRX at 265 hp which has the 5 speed usually achieves 60 quicker at 4.7-4.8 (Motor trend once saw 4.6 on a WRX hatch) seconds and the 1/4 mile at around 13.5-13.8 seconds.

I know these are all straight line acceleration times but having the WRX beat the STI to 60 by 2 to 4 tenths of a second with 35 LESS horsepower is a significant difference. Further the 1/4 time differences are NOT significant given the power difference...the STI's advantage in trap speed is almost erased by the quicker acceleration off the line seen on the less powerful wrx.

Saying everyone needs something different is accurate, I just am trying to illustrate that with all the mighty 6 speed's amazing capabilities, I just don't think the 6mt will ever be a good choice for the 818 unless you decide to swap gears. I'm all for MORE gears but the STI's transmission with all it's weight and girth and fancy AWD features is simply a waste in something like the 818.

I don't want anyone to think I'm just a fanboy of the 5MT because I'm not, I actually want to perform a 6 speed swap in my WRX someday for the DCCD and it's ability to handle way more HP than my 5mt. I do wish it had taller gears even for the WRX, but for the 818 powered by USDM engines, the 6mt simply makes absolutely no sense given most of the advantages the 6mt provide are in it's AWD technology.

If you had an N/A 818 with a 8500 Redline i'd be singing a different song.

[PhilElement]

Sure, for a JDM STI with less torque and 2k more revs to play with, shorter ratios make sense. I still say shaving 1500lbs from the vehicle would have you wanting taller gearing overall, you can hit redline at higher speeds at the same rate with 15k lbs less to haul around. You also have larger wheels which make your gearing taller and you have 2k more revs to play with over a stock 2.5L wrx or sti and still 1500 more than a 2.0 usdm wrx making some of the shortcomings I'm referencing about shorter gears on these cars a moot point.

Taller gearing is only better if you have a shorter powerband and weight has no bearing on this. Your workable power range dictates your best gearing. Weight helps with acceleration..agreed. Both the WRX and the STi can easily be tuned to handle 7500 RPM which is usually when I shift on the race car so I know it's a sizable range with a substantial turbocharger. Stock turbochargers will fade after 6500 RPM so sure I can see the 5 speed being more attractive with that setup.


The current 2011 STI with 305 HP is rated 0-60 by most formal tests to be around 5-5.2 seconds and rated on the 1/4 mile by similar tests to be in the 13.35-13.5 second range. The most recent WRX at 265 hp which has the 5 speed usually achieves 60 quicker at 4.7-4.8 (Motor trend once saw 4.6 on a WRX hatch) seconds and the 1/4 mile at around 13.5-13.8 seconds.

I know these are all straight line acceleration times but having the WRX beat the STI to 60 by 2 to 4 tenths of a second with 35 LESS horsepower is a significant difference. Further the 1/4 time differences are NOT significant given the power difference...the STI's advantage in trap speed is almost erased by the quicker acceleration off the line seen on the less powerful wrx.

The 09+ WRXs are underrated from the factory plus new STis are pigs! So much fluff now to justify the $38K price tag. A new WRX is a performance bargain for sure!


Saying everyone needs something different is accurate, I just am trying to illustrate that with all the mighty 6 speed's amazing capabilities, I just don't think the 6mt will ever be a good choice for the 818 unless you decide to swap gears. I'm all for MORE gears but the STI's transmission with all it's weight and girth and fancy AWD features is simply a waste in something like the 818.

I don't want anyone to think I'm just a fanboy of the 5MT because I'm not, I actually want to perform a 6 speed swap in my WRX someday for the DCCD and it's ability to handle way more HP than my 5mt. I do wish it had taller gears even for the WRX, but for the 818 powered by USDM engines, the 6mt simply makes absolutely no sense given most of the advantages the 6mt provide are in it's AWD technology.

If you had an N/A 818 with a 8500 Redline i'd be singing a different song.

I think for many people buying the "street" version of the 818 a 5 speed will do fine and for the guys that want more power the newer 5 speed will be even better.

To say the 6 speed is a waste in the 818 just isn't true. There will be plenty of people including myself who will want the "Track" version of the 818 to be their personal DP car. There are plenty of race cars that have the power to weight ratio many will see as overkill (500 HP 818 with a race weight of 2200 lbs) but are exactly what I want and some others have expressed. I already race a car with this power to weight ratio but I want more.

[bromikl]

Can I just build mine the way I want it?

[Draco-REX]

Can I just build mine the way I want it?
I think the moral of this thread, and it's derailment, is that, due to the 818's light weight and small size, bigger might not always be better and choosing parts should be done with an eye towards the big picture.

For my 818 build, I'm going with a 5MT for its lighter weight. There are close-ratio gearsets available, and I can leave the 5th gear alone for highway use. So I have no need for a heavy 6MT.

[PhilElement]

Can I just build mine the way I want it?

Isn't that the whole point of a kit car? Some want a light weight, low power setup and others want the light weight, high power setup. Some want a street car and some want a race car. I just want the chassis to be able to fit the 6 speed (physically) so that I have the option to build what I want.

[Etos]

Phil, you should know as well as anyone else no race car resembles the car it came from outside of a dedicated nascar frame. Just accept that it won't look pretty with a 6 speed just as many race cars don't always look pretty. 6MT is overkill for anything but what you want to do with it. I just don't see the justification to change up the chasis to make the 6MT look pretty.

Even so shouldn't you consider a 5 speed case with swapped gears just for the weight? Having that heavy 6 speed really far back isn't going to help weight distribution. I know you have a PTWR you want but PTWR isn't everything. Will a 2000 pound car with 400HP going to react anywhere near the same as a 4000 pound car with 800hp? That lower weight alone is going to make a huge difference in the corners you can't make up any other way no matter how much power you throw at it.

[BrandonDrums]

Phil, you should know as well as anyone else no race car resembles the car it came from outside of a dedicated nascar frame. Just accept that it won't look pretty with a 6 speed just as many race cars don't always look pretty. 6MT is overkill for anything but what you want to do with it. I just don't see the justification to change up the chasis to make the 6MT look pretty.

Even so shouldn't you consider a 5 speed case with swapped gears just for the weight? Having that heavy 6 speed really far back isn't going to help weight distribution. I know you have a PTWR you want but PTWR isn't everything. Will a 2000 pound car with 400HP going to react anywhere near the same as a 4000 pound car with 800hp? That lower weight alone is going to make a huge difference in the corners you can't make up any other way no matter how much power you throw at it.

This is my point^^^

The FFR 818 Chassis isn't made to utilize the 6 speed. People are upset about that. But there's no need to be for all the reasons above and more. Be happy with the 5 MT because that's all this thing will support without some major PITA modding and frankly it's not worth it for all those reasons. I'd rather discuss engine choices, tuning, turbos, intercooling, etc. etc. than keep having every thread about engines or power etc. get derailed by someone saying how crappy the 5mt is and that FFR has shot themselves in the foot for not leaving room for it when there's dozens of reasons why the 6mt is a bad choice and a topic we should leave behind for now. I just want to talk about the car at this point.

So, engine choices...

[RossLH]

Engine choices....well if its up to me, EJ22T or big port EJ207, either way its going to be built. 5MT is fine--it may not be able to handle AWD too well, but it'll be fine running only 2 wheels. That will also be built.

I guess my concerns revolve around rotated turbo kits and front mount fitment. How is all that going to work?

[Canadian818]

What about the '08 & up legacy 6spd? Is it just as big and heavy as the sti tranny?

[Draco-REX]

What about the '08 & up legacy 6spd? Is it just as big and heavy as the sti tranny?

yes.

[Steve91T]

I know it's a little bit different, but sometimes I wish my 97 Camaro was a 5 speed. And actually, for the track, a 4 speed is nearly ideal. With less area under the curve, the 5 speed will be plenty on the track. The only time you'd want a 6th gear would be for long distance highway stuff.

[Etos]

This is my point^^^

The FFR 818 Chassis isn't made to utilize the 6 speed. People are upset about that. But there's no need to be for all the reasons above and more. Be happy with the 5 MT because that's all this thing will support without some major PITA modding and frankly it's not worth it for all those reasons. I'd rather discuss engine choices, tuning, turbos, intercooling, etc. etc. than keep having every thread about engines or power etc. get derailed by someone saying how crappy the 5mt is and that FFR has shot themselves in the foot for not leaving room for it when there's dozens of reasons why the 6mt is a bad choice and a topic we should leave behind for now. I just want to talk about the car at this point.

So, engine choices...

The 6mt will fit. The mounting points are the same. It'll just stick out past the bumper most likely. It's just an overkill solution with a bunch of downsides. A 5mt with stronger gears, case bolts and maybe a brace(someone made some a few years back) would be more then enough to handle any power you can make out of an EJ. It's a whole lot better then getting stuck with 6mt gearing, weight, cost, etc.

Engine choices, god the sky is the limit. We can sit here for 100 pages about what engines you can go with. Personally for the everyday joe smoe any factory engine will be great. At 1800 pounds even the EJ251/253 will be super nice. The fact that it's not much more to get into WRX 300hp area is icing on the cake.

[evo818]

I agree, with not having a ton of knowledge on modding a subaru engine I'd rather get some good info on that. I plan on using the 06 - 07 WRX motor like FFR has in the chasis right now. While I have the engine out what are some worthwhile mods to do? I know intake and exhaust and IC plumbing will be different so I'm looking for more like cams, injectors, head work, etc. type of mods. Obviously a good tune is already on the list.

Thanks

[Draco-REX]

I agree, with not having a ton of knowledge on modding a subaru engine I'd rather get some good info on that. I plan on using the 06 - 07 WRX motor like FFR has in the chasis right now. While I have the engine out what are some worthwhile mods to do? I know intake and exhaust and IC plumbing will be different so I'm looking for more like cams, injectors, head work, etc. type of mods. Obviously a good tune is already on the list.

Thanks
What are your power goals?

[evo818]

I'm looking for a good safe reliable number. From what little research I've done probably in the 320 - 350 range.

[Draco-REX]

I'm looking for a good safe reliable number. From what little research I've done probably in the 320 - 350 range.
A lot of people do that with the stock heads and cams.

The stock setup is pretty good for having 90 degree intake and exhaust exits. But any stock head will benefit from some massaging. For your goals, I wouldn't worry about oversize valves or crazy cams. You might find some mild cams, but you usually don't see them until someone wants crazy power.

TGV deletes, injectors, and a smooth inlet are good to do while the engine is out and the intake manifold is off. The inlet won't get you much, but it's such a pita to do with the intake manifold on that you might as well do it while the engine is apart in case you want to do it in the future.

I would probably just freshen up the block, but I'd stay away from forged pistons if this will be a daily driver. No point in dealing with piston slap and rebuilds if you don't have to.

The header and up pipe will likely be the same. So that would be a good time to do those too since you'll have beter access to the bolts on the turbo. Equal length headers will get you a little more power, but make it sound more like a regular 4 cyl. nequal length will preserve the subaru rumble if you want it. And don't go too big on the up-pipe diameter or it'll kill your spool. MadDad has a good header/up combo.

And external wastegate is something that might be a good idea, but until we get a good look at the final chassis and exhaust arrangement, we won't know what the clearances are like. I think a regular dump tube could work, but it'd be pretty noisy right behind your right ear.

Once the first 818s are out it'll be interesting to see if they might benefit from an NA intake manifold. But that's something for the future.

[evo818]

Good info. I definitely want to keep the unequal length header as I love the subaru rumble and I'll have to research the TGV delete more. What about BOV's? Is it worthwhile to port and polish the throttle body or intake manifold?

[AVIONX]

A PPG gearset is around $4k but with all the upgrades (speedo gear, interlocker, upgraded 5th gear syncro hub) you really need, it's $5k plus and don't forget you'll need to upgrade the differential at $800-1200. You could easily be hit $6k where 6 speeds are readily available for $3k to $3500 with shifter parts.

Thanks,
Philip Grabow
Wow. You people must be made of money or this thing must be so bad that a 400WHP car with 2WD and an open diff it blows the first time you dump the clutch (like IRS on a Cobra mustang with slicks) Otherwise you could just keep a pile of 5 or 6 low mileage trannys stacked out back like cordwood for about half the price of a PPG gearset. Not to mention removing/replacing a tranny takes about a 1/4 of the time and 1/10th of the talent are remove/rebuild/replace.
Matt.

[Draco-REX]

Good info. I definitely want to keep the unequal length header as I love the subaru rumble and I'll have to research the TGV delete more. What about BOV's? Is it worthwhile to port and polish the throttle body or intake manifold?
Being MAF-based, an atmospheric BoV is a bad idea as it vents already metered air. Stick with a BPV. The stock BPV is good for 25lbs or so.

I'm planning to experiment with a BPV restrictor on my WRX. Depending on the results I might do that on my 818 also.

Any air pathway can benefit from smoothing, but you're chasing fractions at that point.

[PhilElement]

Phil, you should know as well as anyone else no race car resembles the car it came from outside of a dedicated nascar frame. Just accept that it won't look pretty with a 6 speed just as many race cars don't always look pretty. 6MT is overkill for anything but what you want to do with it. I just don't see the justification to change up the chasis to make the 6MT look pretty.

I'm Ok with the back of the transmission hanging out and I've mentioned this. I'm hoping with the "Race" version they are making the body will have more overhang at the back.

No one should be offended I want this and want this for others also as I know it's the best move for high power. I'm trying to get what I want and if FF is going to prevent a 6 speed from fitting at all so be it. For all we know it does fit, just sticks out the back. Has anyone confirmed this?


Even so shouldn't you consider a 5 speed case with swapped gears just for the weight? Having that heavy 6 speed really far back isn't going to help weight distribution. I know you have a PTWR you want but PTWR isn't everything. Will a 2000 pound car with 400HP going to react anywhere near the same as a 4000 pound car with 800hp? That lower weight alone is going to make a huge difference in the corners you can't make up any other way no matter how much power you throw at it.

Upgrading a 5 speed box with a front diff and a gearset is something I've done before and I don't want to go there again given how good the 6 speed is for $3k. The weight split isn't everything and a little extra weight back there is going to help the car hook up the HP when substantial downforce isn't available.

As for power to weight ratio and performance we've touched on this some and aero drag will be a problem with a lower power car regardless of the power to weight ratio. At 400 HP it's going to be very fast no doubt! Why wouldn't you want more though? ;) I'm not saying it makes sense but we build 600-800HP Subarus all year long for customer that don't race but very occasionally or never. You have some that will want the 818 to be an affordable and fast car, and then you'll have our customers who could by a GTR or a Z06 but prefer to tinker and build up a car that is not only ridiculously powered but makes absolutely no financial sense. It's a toy, a means to happiness that you cannot put a price on.

I've also studied many cars around VIR (it's a pro track so lots of data) and nailing down lap times based on power to weight ratio is really tough. You have 2500 lbs 850 HP Ganassi Nascar COT pulling 1:55 laps, you have 1200 lbs Juno V6s with 395 HP pulling 1:56s
6773
, and you have my 3200 lbs Subaru at 600 HP pulling 1:56 laps times.

No one including me is telling anyone they can't or shouldn't use a 5 speed.

[PhilElement]

This is my point^^^

The FFR 818 Chassis isn't made to utilize the 6 speed. People are upset about that. But there's no need to be for all the reasons above and more. Be happy with the 5 MT because that's all this thing will support without some major PITA modding and frankly it's not worth it for all those reasons. I'd rather discuss engine choices, tuning, turbos, intercooling, etc. etc. than keep having every thread about engines or power etc. get derailed by someone saying how crappy the 5mt is and that FFR has shot themselves in the foot for not leaving room for it when there's dozens of reasons why the 6mt is a bad choice and a topic we should leave behind for now. I just want to talk about the car at this point.

So, engine choices...

Blowing this out of proportion and for some reason taking it personally. Build the car you want no one it telling you otherwise.

[BipDBo]

6 speed, 5 speed, whatever.

By the direction Subaru seems to be heading, it won't be long before all of the potential donors have CVTs.

[PhilElement]

Ok I'm moving off the 6 speed, let's drop it.

I think the best engines (of course your budget will determine how you go) but if you can score a 2005-2009 Legacy GT you've got one of the best engine and transmission combos plus a better ECU to tune. These 5 speeds are much stronger than the 02-04 WRX. If a good deal comes up on a wrecked 06+ WRX those also have the 2.5 motor and strong 5 speed. The 2009+ WRX is underrated and comes with a strong turbocharger!

What to watch out for on high mileage WRX 02-04 with EJ205. Most of high mileage (70k+) WRX EJ205 motors that come here for build up have cracks in the heads. Sometimes you don't see it until you clean up the carbon but the cracks extend from the spark plug hole into the intake or exhaust port. Valves are usually recessed and the seats pretty worn. The open deck blocks are good and reliable but keep it to 400 HP or less as cylinder walking on track cars can be an issue with high coolant temps. At 400 ft/lbs the rods can buckle also. In some cases picking up a high mileage engine that needs so much work, rebuild, heads replaced or serviced, high mileage turbocharger, etc. in the end may cost more than trying to score a newer engine that doesn't need much work.

The 2.5 (EJ257+) with good tuning even the cast pistons are plenty strong and we've proven that racing our car at 500 whp for an entire time attack season with no failure. They also have some better parts such as stronger rods, better oil pan/baffling, and overall the heads hold up really well to high mileage. You'll still likely need a valve job at 70k plus but we are not seeing the heads crack. Bad tuning or even off the shelf mapping can result in cracked pistons at any power level and neglect can result in oil starvation. Do not buy an engine or car that has rod knock!!!! In most cases the damage runs through the heads and the engine is scrap because the owners don't pick it up quickly enough.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[fateo66]

Ok I'm moving off the 6 speed, let's drop it.

I think the best engines (of course your budget will determine how you go) but if you can score a 2005-2009 Legacy GT you've got one of the best engine and transmission combos plus a better ECU to tune. These 5 speeds are much stronger than the 02-04 WRX. If a good deal comes up on a wrecked 05+ WRX those also have the 2.5 motor and strong 5 speed. The 2009+ WRX is underrated and comes with a strong turbocharger!

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

05 Wrx's are still the EJ205 Phil :cool:

[Xusia]

I think the best engines (of course your budget will determine how you go) but if you can score a 2005-2009 Legacy GT you've got one of the best engine and transmission combos plus a better ECU to tune.

Hey Phil, thanks for the good info. Question: Which engine does the 2005-2009 Legacy GT have - the EJ205 or the EJ257?

[Evan78]

Hey Phil, thanks for the good info. Question: Which engine does the 2005-2009 Legacy GT have - the EJ205 or the EJ257?
EJ255.

The wikipedia article is helpful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EJ_engine#EJ255

[Xusia]

Ahh, OK. That's the engine I had sorta decided on previously. Didn't know it also came in the Legacy. Now I have more options to find one! Thanks!

[PhilElement]

Some years of the EJ255 have higher compression but it's essentially strong with the same potential as the STi motors. I typically lump the EJ257-255 in the same category even though there are differences in the cooling jackets for heads, gaskets, EGR.....

Yes, oops on the 05 WRX I'll change that. The 05 WRX and honestly it could also be the 04 WRX have different heads than the early EJ205. These heads do not have the smaller EJ205 valves or shim over bucket setup. They have the same size valves as the STi, have shimless buckets, could have better castings, but are not AVCS.

[BrandonDrums]

Engine choices....well if its up to me, EJ22T or big port EJ207, either way its going to be built. 5MT is fine--it may not be able to handle AWD too well, but it'll be fine running only 2 wheels. That will also be built.

I guess my concerns revolve around rotated turbo kits and front mount fitment. How is all that going to work?

Yeah, with all the pics of the FFR test chassis it's probably too early to tell if there's going to be room along the body to get FMIC piping anywhere but underneath the car. There's as much if not more room in the engine bay than a standard impreza along the sides just because there aren't strut towers to deal with or the firewall behind the engine. However, the space in front of the engine is nearly non-existant from what I can tell. Once we see the body on the chassis we can determine what type of intercooler setups are possible...

I do miss my EJ207, much smoother than the EJ205 in so many ways, if I build another engine I'm considering stroking a 207 to 2.2 myself.

[Draco-REX]

I don't see a FMIC as feasible. That's a LOT of volume to charge up. I'm thinking a rear-mount with electric fans might be the better option for the 818.

[Evan78]

Plus there will probably be less frontal area to share with the radiator than say a full size sedan.

[BrandonDrums]

Blowing this out of proportion and for some reason taking it personally. Build the car you want no one it telling you otherwise.

I've been on this forum since February and all any new members seem to talk about is 5mt vs. 6mt when there are literally hundreds of threads already on the topic including a couple where Dave Smith himself says the 6mt won't fit the chassis. Of course I'm annoyed but nothing personal bro ;-)


Ok I'm moving off the 6 speed, let's drop it.

Deal!

[BrandonDrums]

.....TGV deletes, injectors, and a smooth inlet are good to do while the engine is out and the intake manifold is off. The inlet won't get you much, but it's such a pita to do with the intake manifold on that you might as well do it while the engine is apart in case you want to do it in the future.

I would probably just freshen up the block, but I'd stay away from forged pistons if this will be a daily driver. No point in dealing with piston slap and rebuilds if you don't have to.

The header and up pipe will likely be the same. So that would be a good time to do those too since you'll have beter access to the bolts on the turbo. Equal length headers will get you a little more power, but make it sound more like a regular 4 cyl. nequal length will preserve the subaru rumble if you want it. And don't go too big on the up-pipe diameter or it'll kill your spool. MadDad has a good header/up combo.

And external wastegate is something that might be a good idea, but until we get a good look at the final chassis and exhaust arrangement, we won't know what the clearances are like. I think a regular dump tube could work, but it'd be pretty noisy right behind your right ear.

Once the first 818s are out it'll be interesting to see if they might benefit from an NA intake manifold. But that's something for the future....

all very great info! I have forged pistons on a DD, on one hand I love it as I don't fear ringland failures like most 2.5 guys. On the other hand, it sucks waiting for your car to warm all the way up before driving every single time... especially in the winter. All in all, if you're going to have a big turbo on a DD car, an EJ250X will last longer with forged pistons than without as long as you let the car warm all the way up before driving it at all. Some guys say just not to get onto boost until it's warm, honestly it's better not to drive it period until it's warm. Otherwise at 50 or 60k you'll have lost compression from the out of round or 'egged' out cylinder walls. I'm hoping for at least 100k before I have to go back to the machine shop and drop in new slugs...still cheaper than a new block I say...

[Draco-REX]

Some guys say just not to get onto boost until it's warm, honestly it's better not to drive it period until it's warm.
This. Loose pistons are loose pistons.

The only forged setup I'd consider for a street car is the RalliSpec block. Lots of people have commented on it's minimal piston slap. I'm not sure which pistons they use, but they have somehow got away with much better cold tolerances than you find with most forged pistons.

[armstrom]

Just a thought... for those who live in Europe I wonder if the diesel subaru boxer engine/tranny would fit... I know there's talk of a high MPG diesel variant based on the TDI powertrain but if the diesel subaru will "drop in" then we might see a diesel variant sooner than we think :) Considering the boxer diesel gets about 42MPG (combined) in a legacy sedan (while the old 2.5L NA gas engine is lucky to get 27MPG on the highway) Might make for some good economy.
http://www.boxerdiesel.com

-Matt

[BrandonDrums]

Just a thought... for those who live in Europe I wonder if the diesel subaru boxer engine/tranny would fit... I know there's talk of a high MPG diesel variant based on the TDI powertrain but if the diesel subaru will "drop in" then we might see a diesel variant sooner than we think :) Considering the boxer diesel gets about 42MPG (combined) in a legacy sedan (while the old 2.5L NA gas engine is lucky to get 27MPG on the highway) Might make for some good economy.
http://www.boxerdiesel.com

-Matt

I'm fairly certain it would drop right in. As the addage goes, Subarus are like leggos and I believe the diesel engine inevitably has the same subaru housing that should mate to most subaru transmissions. However, I don't believe it's a turbodiesl, just a N/A :-(

[RossLH]

Being MAF-based, an atmospheric BoV is a bad idea as it vents already metered air. Stick with a BPV. The stock BPV is good for 25lbs or so.

I'm planning to experiment with a BPV restrictor on my WRX. Depending on the results I might do that on my 818 also.

Any air pathway can benefit from smoothing, but you're chasing fractions at that point.

The problem I have with the stock BPV is the response time. It holds boost well, opens right on time, and takes half a lifetime to shut. It is not at all difficult to beat the stock BPV to the shift, and its no fun when that happens.

When it comes to the BPV, Forge all the way. They took the best design out there (stock) and made it better. Faster response, adjustable spring rate (comes with a spring/shim kit), and honest to god leak free.

[shinn497]

Out of curiosity, would an EJ207 still make sense in cali? I am confident that it could pass inspection, but I'm wondering if it would rev high with only 91 gas. I'm thinking an E85 tune might be a solution.

[Draco-REX]

The problem I have with the stock BPV is the response time. It holds boost well, opens right on time, and takes half a lifetime to shut. It is not at all difficult to beat the stock BPV to the shift, and its no fun when that happens.

When it comes to the BPV, Forge all the way. They took the best design out there (stock) and made it better. Faster response, adjustable spring rate (comes with a spring/shim kit), and honest to god leak free.

Nothing wrong with an aftermarket BPV. Just as long as it's a BPV not an atmospheric BoV.

[RossLH]

Nothing wrong with an aftermarket BPV. Just as long as it's a BPV not an atmospheric BoV.

BOV's venting to atmosphere really isn't that big of a deal (a little afterfire never hurt anyone), the main issue comes when they leak, and most do. Unfortunately, most aftermarket BPV's leak too, which is a rarely addressed issue. The Forge BPV is the only one I've seen tested that didn't leak.

[Draco-REX]

BOV's venting to atmosphere really isn't that big of a deal (a little afterfire never hurt anyone)
Except for the cats burning that extra fuel and melting. There's also the way it'll make the back end of your car look like a diesel. Then there's the risk of washing down your cylinder walls with fuel.

Fouled plugs

Carbon build up which leads to knock

Best to just stick with BPVs.

[Etos]

BOVs are fine. They just need to be set to the right application. Stock everything, not a good idea. But if you use manifold pressure for tuning rather then MAF then it's fine. GFB makes an excellent BPV/BOV that can be switched between them.

Point being when you start doing heavy mods, BOV are fine when installed right and actually preferred. That way it's not a nightmare routing the air back through post maf, and pre turbo.

On the other side of the coin, BW with their EFR found a way to make BPV awesome and perform better by putting the BPV right on the turbo to help it spool between shifts.

[RossLH]

Except for the cats burning that extra fuel and melting. There's also the way it'll make the back end of your car look like a diesel. Then there's the risk of washing down your cylinder walls with fuel.

Fouled plugs

Carbon build up which leads to knock

Best to just stick with BPVs.

I agree with sticking with BPV's, but 3 of the effects you described are being pretty dramatic. Burning cats? Yeah thats an issue. The other three....well thats just not gonna happen, and if it does, there's a bigger culprit than the BOV. The actual amount of fuel dumped during each BOV opening event is rather minimal--running an AFR below 11 produces more dramatic effects in the long run.

Again, not arguing that BOV's are a good idea, I'm just being realistic about the effects.


BOVs are fine. They just need to be set to the right application. Stock everything, not a good idea. But if you use manifold pressure for tuning rather then MAF then it's fine. GFB makes an excellent BPV/BOV that can be switched between them.

Indeed, speed density and BOV's can go hand in hand. By the way, GFB valves are known to leak. Definitely not a piece I'd recommend.

[Xusia]

I'm trying really hard to follow the conversation (and learn), but the number of acronyms is getting out of hand. I'm pretty sure MAF = Mass Air Flow, and NA or N/A = Normally Aspirated. Based on the context, I'm guessing BPV = ByPass Valve, and BOV = Blow Off Valve (did I get those right??). But GFB, BW, EFR, WTF?!? :)

[Etos]

I'm trying really hard to follow the conversation (and learn), but the number of acronyms is getting out of hand. I'm pretty sure MAF = Mass Air Flow, and NA or N/A = Normally Aspirated. Based on the context, I'm guessing BPV = ByPass Valve, and BOV = Blow Off Valve (did I get those right??). But GFB, BW, EFR, WTF?!? :)

GFB = go fast bits, company that makes BPV/BOVs among a few other things
BW = Borg Warner, huge turbo charger company. More well known in the OEM world
EFR = engineered for racing series turbos that BW just released recently. It's the cats meow of high performance turbo charging.
WTF = What the freak :P

[RossLH]

I'm guessing BPV = ByPass Valve, and BOV = Blow Off Valve (did I get those right??)

Bingo, difference being (at least in how I use the terms) is BPV's recirculate, BOV's vent to atmosphere.

[armstrom]

I'm fairly certain it would drop right in. As the addage goes, Subarus are like leggos and I believe the diesel engine inevitably has the same subaru housing that should mate to most subaru transmissions. However, I don't believe it's a turbodiesl, just a N/A :-( The new boxer diesel is turbocharged. It has a variable geometry turbo.
-Matt

[BrandonDrums]

The new boxer diesel is turbocharged. It has a variable geometry turbo.
-Matt

Oh sweet! :D

[PhilElement]

I'm trying really hard to follow the conversation (and learn), but the number of acronyms is getting out of hand. I'm pretty sure MAF = Mass Air Flow, and NA or N/A = Normally Aspirated. Based on the context, I'm guessing BPV = ByPass Valve, and BOV = Blow Off Valve (did I get those right??). But GFB, BW, EFR, WTF?!? :)

Man good luck. There is so much misinformation and bad recommendations mixed with good, I don't know where to begin.

[Draco-REX]

Man good luck. There is so much misinformation and bad recommendations mixed with good, I don't know where to begin.

As a suggestion? How about some recipes?

This is the first step up from stock, it'll get you roughly ###hp:

This is the next step, it'll make about ###hp:

etc. You don't have to use "Stage" if you don't want to. There are some old-hands at Subarus here, but also a lot of people who will be new to the Subaru performance arena. Different people will have different goals, but only a small few will want a totally balls-out build. Those can find you. But some simple guidance to increase power while keeping reliability at the top of the pyramid might help a lot the people that are looking for something in between.

Frankly, while there is a large Subaru Boxer aftermarket, the 818 is a new subset. There are no standards yet. You could set them by creating simple recipes that builders new to Subarus could look to for a little more kick from their flat 4. Just look at the Roadster market. There are pre-selected packages they can get. And while the 818 isn't out yet and details are fuzzy, you can lay the foundation for these packages now without getting into too many specifics.

[shinn497]

I think 300 and 400hp are the magic numbers

[flynntuna]

If one would have mulitple engines, say a NA for daily driving duty, and a WRX engine for track duty, what would be needed to make this happen?

[metalmaker12]

A JDM Engine is also a option, I got a good deal on one with only 30k on it from JDM Racing motors. Also despite some opinions, I personally have had both Usdm and Jdm Sti engines in my previous Subarus, and have had more love for the jdm ej207 2.0L versions. They make slightly less power stock (usdm 300 vs like 290 Jdm). They rev to 8200 stock-8600 tune (Version 7/8/9) compaired to like 7500 usdm. The rev is set higher than any stock turbo will go, but the Jdm engine revs up faster due to less mass and just seems to move the car quicker. A good case study I performed was my 06 sti with a stock tuned usdm 2.5. I ran multiple passes with a avg of a 13.4 1/4. I than got a jdm version 9 while I was building my Ej257. I ran an avg 13.0 with a stock tune jdm ecu. The jdm felt like it had a little less low torque but seemed to shift smoother and carry the car faster in the 5-7k range. I felt it was more consistent and I personally like the Jdm motors stock for stock a lot better.

If you are going to build up a motor, that is a whole different ball game. You can make a 2.5 rev up fast and rev high too with boat loads of power. My 2.5 made 537whp and 561wtorque with a built bottom end ,20-21psi open ecu tune a gt35r rotated crawford turbo kit. It is still running strong 45k after it was built. It is what you wanna spend, For such a light car I would say a slightly built usdm wrx to make around 300-350whp would be a good choice, or a jdm sti to make the same power with a tune. Hell any way you can get good power, As a DD I would stay stock or a light tune 275 wrx-320 sti whp max.

If you want NA you need NA harness, and na motor, unless you do some custum ecu and or harness etc etc $$$$$$$$
If you want Turbo you need turbo harness, and turbo motor, it would be a big pain in the rear in my opinion
Go turbo and never look back at the na cars in your dust.
lol I will now get my doors blown off by some car with a na setup, i better knock on some wood.

My tune will set the rear wheels off the front diff only,, lol how cool is that @ around 325-330whp, that is plenty fast for me.
I got a tranny I am planning to build up to with a LSD and gear kit,,, Highly recommended!!!!!!!

[StatGSR]

If one would have mulitple engines, say a NA for daily driving duty, and a WRX engine for track duty, what would be needed to make this happen?

An engine management and wiring solution that works for both would be key, Also you would have to be willing to kill a full day to do the swap each time. really it would make more sense to just have run a detuned version on the street and swap to a different map for the track.

[PhyrraM]

If one would have mulitple engines, say a NA for daily driving duty, and a WRX engine for track duty, what would be needed to make this happen?

Physically, it's likely doable depending how easy FFRs designs the chassis to remove the motor. Small details would need to be addressed, but nothing a good shadetree mechanic couldn't figure out.

Electrically, you would likely need a stand-alone ECU. Nothing designed by Subaru will run both a turbo motor and a non-turbo - even with flashing. If you go stand-alone, then you can have two programs and load the proper one. Just build each motor to use the same plug-in connectors.

[Nuul]

I think AEM makes a generic standalone but I'm pretty sure you loose some features.

[Niburu]

<seriously considering a Renesis

[Oppenheimer]

really it would make more sense to just have run a detuned version on the street and swap to a different map for the track.

This.

But were you just thinking about fuel economy? There will be no real fuel mileage penalty for going stock tuned turbo (vs NA) so long as you don't drive it hard. The stock turbo can make more power than the NA, so if you drive it hard enough that you are accelerating faster than the NA could propel you, yes, you'll use more fuel. But if don't push it faster than the NA could move you, the turbo will return similar mileage.

The turbo always has the potential to get worse mileage than NA, but mostly because the turbo can make more power if you ask it to. But that does not mean it has to get worse mileage.

The different maps idea gives you the potential to accomplish what you are asking for without having to change the engine. But you can accomplish a similar (albeit less dramatic) fuel-mileage effect just by using your right foot. If you just don't drive your close-to-stock turbo 818 hard when you are commuting or just doing DD tasks, you'll get very near NA mileage. Then you'll have your turbo power at your beck-and-call anytime you feel like it. Without an engine swap, or even swapping maps. Just stop your foot.

[PhyrraM]

Mostly true Oppie... The stock tune from Subaru is pig rich for safety. An aftermarket tune would be required to get close to N/A milage, even when watching your driving style.

Once that is done, I agree....you can get great mileage from a turbo car.

[flynntuna]

What I was thinking was to do the initial build with a NA engine, then later add a STI powerplant. I'm not sure if 300+ hp would be to much of a beast to be comfortable as a daily driver. Then again, thats what this car's all about.

[metalmaker12]

Very true, Before I had a tune I got 18-19 mpg avg. I got 22-24 mpg avg in my sti with a mild cobb accessport tune. If i stepped on i I would get like 12mpg avg lol... so yea it is how you drive it. I would go turbo, because if and when you want it you will have that power. Get a 06 wrx motor with a tune and you will have close to 300 whp and get around 24mpg or better avg.

[riptide motorsport]

I'm sooooooo confused!

[flynntuna]

Yea, it's confusing. It seems like the learning curve for me is fairly steep. The tuner world is very different.

[metalmaker12]

you could add a sti later, you will just need the whole sti harness, or a stand alone ecu setup with a custom wiring kit to run na and or turbo. A stand alone ecu and wiring is not cheep, like 2k, so keep that in mind. If you want a balance of power and daily driving, I would get a wrx motor and leave it stock. You can always add more power with a tune, and or have a stock and tuned map setup with like a Cobb tuning "Accessport", check out their site........ PS, you guys will catch up

[Mechie3]

What I was thinking was to do the initial build with a NA engine, then later add a STI powerplant. I'm not sure if 300+ hp would be to much of a beast to be comfortable as a daily driver. Then again, thats what this car's all about.

STI motors are nothing special compared to the 2.5L WRX's. Compression ratio is a little different to allow for easier tuning with a bigger turbo. People also want more money because it says "STI".


Get a 06 wrx motor with a tune and you will have close to 300 whp and get around 24mpg or better avg.

A stock turbo won't get you 300whp. I made 243whp/351wtq with the stock turbo. In the WRX I averaged 19-20mpg overall 1/2 highway 1/2 city with a heavy right foot. The 818 will be lighter, so mpg will be better, but wouldn't necessarily bet on 24 as a given.

[305mouse]

Craig, it would be interesting to see what your whp and wtq is with your 818 build. You'll be loosing less due to friction and whatnot. I would think there would be some increase, not any 50 whp, but some.

[wjfawb0]

Both of my 2005 STIs with full exhaust, stock turbo and stock intake other than better flowing filter ended up around 290WHP and 320WTQ. I used a cobb accessport stage 2 on both with a custom dyno tune.

http://www.fawbush.org/images/2007_5_7_Chicago/2007_5_7_P&L.jpg

http://www.fawbush.org/images/2007_5_7_Chicago/2007_5_7_P&L_dyno.jpg

I got 23mpg highway in both cars. The sad thing was that my 2003 Cobra mustang got 23mpg highway too. The motor in the Cobra was a 4.6L V8 at 8.5:1 compression much like the 2.5L H4 8.5:1 STi motor. I've never owned a WRX, but my friends always said they could get 25-30mpg on the highway with a 05-07 WRX???

Cobra dyno for comparison:

http://www.fawbush.org/images/2006_9_Cobra/Run5.jpg

[metalmaker12]

You can get 300whp out of a 2.5 wrx/sti and a 2.0 sti with a stock turbo, its been done many times. Good 93 plus octane tune, exhaust, intake, front mount, intake methanal/water injection. I did not say a wrx stock turbo though, a Vf 43, or a twin scroll jdm are best suited for this, among others stock trims. But anyway in theory if you get 19-20 in a wrx, you will get about 4-5 mpg better in a car that is close to half the weight. Also since you are loosing awd you will gain about 20-25 whp. about a 10% drivetrain loss vs a 15-20%. So on avg a stock sti puts down like 220-235, now it will be 240-260 stock in the 818 setup. with a mild tune 300whp will be easy. The 818 will move very well and with proper tires and a lsd I think mid to low 3 sec 0-60's like 3.0-3.5 range with 300whp and 3.5-4.2 with 225whp, 4.2-4.7 with 200whp. This is all speculation, but I think I am close to what we will see.

[Samiam1017]

How does weight effect mpg?

[LCA1443]

How does weight effect mpg?

Rolling resistance (very minimal)
Extra energy needed to accelerate car. This is very important in city driving.

[PhyrraM]

How does weight effect mpg?

It takes more energy input to accelerate a heavier load. Think about how much more throttle you use when your car or truck is loaded vs. empty.

[Samiam1017]

Sorry. I should be more clear in my question. I do know what your saying phyrram and your 100 percent correct. But I was referring to hi way mpg. The guys saying they get 30 mpg. Cutting your weight in half isn't gonna change hi way mpg.

[Xusia]

Sure it will. Less weight will have a greater impact in town as a percentage increase (because of all the start & stop maneuvering), but less weight will still increase fuel efficiency at highways speeds as well. More weight means more energy required to keep it at a certain speed.

[Zodiac]

hi way will be better but not sure how much. city will be an obvious improvment. also since the car will be more aerodynamic then hi way will be better cause of that as well

[Oppenheimer]

Highway mileage is not as effected by weight as city, but its still effected. If there are any hills that will make a big difference. But even level ground, more weight = more tire deflection = more resistance. If you are in any traffic and forced to slow then speed up again, etc.

Biggest effect on highway of course is aero. And while we don't know how aero the 818 will be, a hardtop version shouldn't have too much trouble being better than the brick that is the shape of the WRX. 818 hardtop mileage should be pretty favorable (compared to WRX) both city & highway. And for the performance it will be unheard of.

[Rarytas]

so... I guess my ej207 from my crashed 2.5rs wont fit on this chassis...? great.... Only difference is the bellhousing on the turbo, no prob, and the exhaust manifold is wider, which is probably the problem. that's a bummer.

edit: its a 2003 EJ207 from the Jap/Can/Euro STi version 8, with the twinscroll jdm turbo setup. PLZ tell me itll fit.

[PhyrraM]

so... I guess my ej207 from my crashed 2.5rs wont fit on this chassis...? great.... Only difference is the bellhousing on the turbo, no prob, and the exhaust manifold is wider, which is probably the problem. that's a bummer.

edit: its a 2003 EJ207 from the Jap/Can/Euro STi version 8, with the twinscroll jdm turbo setup. PLZ tell me itll fit.

I don't see any problem. You might need to modify FFRs provided downpipe.

[Rarytas]

I don't see any problem. You might need to modify FFRs provided downpipe.

correct, i will defiantly need modify the downpipe. but im saying the exhaust manifold, from the head's ports to the upipe, is wider.. i couldnt put a thicker radiator in my RS coz it literally sat on the exhaust manifold.

this manifold is used in the Version 8, Version 9, and S202 motors with the VF37, and VF36 twin scroll turbos.

[305mouse]

I still don't see a problem. Use the engine, have a manifold welded up that will work. A custom one would probably flow better and weigh less than an oem piece anyways.

[Rarytas]

I still don't see a problem. Use the engine, have a manifold welded up that will work. A custom one would probably flow better and weigh less than an oem piece anyways.

I think if I take the oem heat shield off it may decrease the size of it drastically... Ill see. for now it will just sit... waiting

[metalmaker12]

I think if I take the oem heat shield off it may decrease the size of it drastically... Ill see. for now it will just sit... waiting

I have a ej207 as well with the twin scroll setup, we will make it work, stay in touch maybe we can help one another out.

[PhyrraM]

If the major difference is the bulk of the cross-over pipe, that is the area that the fuel tank is slated to go. I can't imagine that FFR will make the fuel tank THAT close to an exhaust component, even if it is heat shielded.

If there is interfereance, I'm sure a few spacers or moved bolt holes will accomodate.

[rjh2pd]

A stock turbo won't get you 300whp. I made 243whp/351wtq with the stock turbo. In the WRX I averaged 19-20mpg overall 1/2 highway 1/2 city with a heavy right foot. The 818 will be lighter, so mpg will be better, but wouldn't necessarily bet on 24 as a given.

The 818 is also losing a rear diff, 2 cv joints and 2 knuckles which well decrease the amount of drivetrain loss by a good 5%. It wont be too far away from half of the weight. Honestly i think 30 avg isn't being unreasonable.

[shinn497]

At high way speeds, the car is slowed down by rolling resistance, the friction of all of the rotating components, and aero. Weight effects the first, the MR coversion effects the second, and the tir is unknown. Since it is a smaller car it will most certaily have a smaller cross section and therein less aero drag than a wrx.

[autostang]

I have to think 30+ mpg on the highway will be easy to achieve. If I drive half way responsible I get over 30 in my 09 wrx hatchback with a full turbo back exhaust and basic accessport tune.

[mrvwcastner]

would EJ253 be a good choice for NA motor? Please explain ie-is it drive by wire? Is it prone to failure? Is there any issues with its transmission? Any issues fitting either?

[Turboguy]

The 6 speed was originally designed for the JDM 2.0 which pulled to 8k RPM from the factory and when you run that kind of RPM the 04-06 6 speeds are phenomenal on the track......My car does run larger wheels/tire and I have up to 8500 RPM if I need it.


Phil-


Which year/versions of the 2.0 and 2.5 turbo motors have the highest (reliable) out-of-the-box red lines?


You mention an 8500 RPM red line on yours -- were a lot of modifications required to achieve that? and is it fairly reliable motor if spun hard?

[Nuul]

If you're after RPMs I'd go with a destroked 2.5L (2.34), those rev to 9K if you use the right internals - IMO this is THE engine to have if you're building a 818-R. If I remember right, it's a 257/255 block with a 205/207 crank and custom rods. There was a group buy for the rods and pistons on NASIOC not that long ago, I'm not sure if it's still going though.

[Xusia]

I spoke with someone at Maxwell Power (http://www.getadomtune.com/services.htm) about the 2.34L engines, which they build in various states of tune. Expect to spend $5K - $10K, probably about $8K for what most people would want for the 818.

[Nuul]

Oh yeah, having MPS do it isn't going to be cheap but they do good work. I briefly considered making a 2.34 after I bought the case halves from an EJ255 to make my 205/257 hybrid. It wasn't going to be all that much more than buying the forged internals (http://realstreetperformance.com/store/je-pistons-eagle-h-beam-rods-combo-subaru-wrx-sti-ej25-ej257-933.html) that I'm looking at getting now. I'd have to check NASIOC to see if the groupbuy is still going but I want to say it was ~$1500 for the custom pistons and rods.