Tesla Powered 33 Hot Rod

[BradC]

I've been planning this build for quite a while now and things are finally starting to get real. Sold my finished previous project car two weeks ago so I have the budget and space freed up for a new one. My 33 Hot Rod build date is just a month away now too. I picked up the rear drive unit I found for the project yesterday which is the first physical part in my possession - so I think I can officially start the build thread!

After months of researching feasibility of what I want to do I've nailed down the high level design of this project. I've done enough internal combustion projects and I wanted a completely new challenge, so this one is gonna be electrified. Here is the high level plan:

Motor:
Tesla Model 3 Performance rear drive unit. This seems like the best option for the 33 after researching and evaluating several options. I was lucky and found a really clean 980 motor (performance version) from a 2018 Model 3 with only 27,400 miles on it at a local dismantler. This has a 265KW (~355Hp) max output with the controller I'm looking at, and of course instant torque. Should be more than enough power to destroy the rear tires on command in what I think will end up being a 2500-2700lb car.

Rear Suspension:
I spent hours and hours working to see if any rear transverse electric motor would fit in with the FFR IRS setup, even with modifications, and it's quite clear that it just won't work. Factory Five took a look at the options I was considering as well and they came to the same conclusion. So I'm on my own for the rear bouncy part that holds the wheels. I considered using the entire Model 3 rear subframe/suspension but the track width is just too wide and it would look like kind of a hack job IMO. So, what I'm going to do is ditch the Tesla subframe and fab up the rear chassis for the Model 3 IRS. I'll 3D scan the complete rear subframe to make accurate CAD files, move the pivot points in to shorten the track width, and then redesign the rear of the chassis to accept the motor and suspension. This is pretty ambitious for me and I've had a few 'what the hell am I doing' moments - but I'm confident I can do it.

Batteries and other stuff:
With great help from Michael Bream at EV West in southern CA, at this point I'm planning on their LG Chem Super Cell battery packs. They will be wired 13 or 14 in series, 2 parallel which will get the required 400V and should provide about a 130ish mile range. That's plenty for a car like this. My top motor controller right now is the EV Controls T-2C. AEM has a really nice setup for the Model S motor but according to them they're not working on support for the Model 3 unfortunately. I'm still undecided on the BMS and charger.

Images and more to follow...

[BradC]

Here is the drive unit I found..
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I don't know why the rotated image is showing as an attached thumbnail... oh well.

[BradC]

This is the current layout for batteries along with a rough CAD model of the motor I found online. I plan to do a better scan of the actual motor I have soon. The chassis CAD model is made from images online but it's a reasonably good start. Once I get my kit I'll adjust the model to match exactly. Sure wish FFR would provide CAD models, but I understand that's their policy.

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[Pat Landymore]

I am totally impressed with your…dare I say…audacious choice of hot rod motivation!!

Will be keenly following your build thread. 👍🏼👍🏼

Cheers,
Pat

[BradC]

I am totally impressed with your…dare I say…audacious choice of hot rod motivation!!

Will be keenly following your build thread. ��������

Cheers,
Pat

Thank you. It’s gonna be an adventure!!

[jayguy]

This is going to be a great build! I've been playing around with the same idea for a while in my head, especially after watching a build where someone used a Model S Performance rear motor in a K1 Attack kit.

The floor just seems perfect for battery storage, and a few more modules in the front.

Now that they've introduced the Ford Eluminator electric motor for kits, I've thought about seeing if that would work as well, that would definitely require a lot of rear suspension fab as it is just the motor you get. Like the Tesla motors it is also transversely mounted with outputs for 2 wheels, but so far other than the F-100 I havent seen it used outside of the Mach-E.

That will take a little while for controllers, etc. to be available, but might be a good option a couple years from now.

I've already subscribed and can't wait to see this build rolling!

[BradC]

This is going to be a great build! I've been playing around with the same idea for a while in my head, especially after watching a build where someone used a Model S Performance rear motor in a K1 Attack kit.

The floor just seems perfect for battery storage, and a few more modules in the front.

Now that they've introduced the Ford Eluminator electric motor for kits, I've thought about seeing if that would work as well, that would definitely require a lot of rear suspension fab as it is just the motor you get. Like the Tesla motors it is also transversely mounted with outputs for 2 wheels, but so far other than the F-100 I havent seen it used outside of the Mach-E.

That will take a little while for controllers, etc. to be available, but might be a good option a couple years from now.

I've already subscribed and can't wait to see this build rolling!

I've checked out that K1 build too. That's crazy power for that little car and he made it fit really well. Very cool build.

I looked at the Eluminator too but like you said it's just not there yet. Hopefully soon it'll all come together. I saw they displayed it at SEMA with an AEM controller but they (AEM) never returned phone calls or emails when I tried to get more info on it. I also saw mention of Cascadia Motion for the assumed inverter but their stuff is way too expensive in my opinion. They have a nice looking drive unit as well but they wanted close to $15k for it.

I took a hard look at fitting the Model S stuff in the Hot Rod but kept hitting walls. The track with is way too big to make the stock subframe work. In the intended motor orientation (rear of the wheels) I couldn't see any good way to reestablish the lower control arm mounts with how steep the trunk of the car slopes down. The stock coilover mount needed modification too. You can reverse the S motor with an oil pump impeller change but then you run into major suspension interferences. The S power sounds good on paper but in reality the thing would be undrivable without tuning it way down anyway. Look at the Model S powered Superformance Cobra videos as an example.

The Model 3 is just the right fit for this car. It puts the motor forward of the axles where there's plenty of room, and the suspension pivot points can be pulled inward a fair amount without hitting the motor. I'm still deciding between the stock separated coil/shock approach, and integrating the coilovers that come with the FFR kit. I'm leaning towards coilovers though. Shouldn't be too difficult to fit them up and then I'll have the adjustability.

[BradC]

All apart and pretty much ready for 3D scanning. Still learning the new scanner I bought so I'm sure it will take a few attempts to get it all right.

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[q4stix]

This is cool to see so I'll be looking forward to integration updates.

Which 3d scanner do you have?

[BradC]

Which 3d scanner do you have?

I have an Einscan Pro HD scanner.

[Brastic]

Great project. Keep us posted.

I am going to assume that you are building a roadster. I am not tall at all (5'10"), and with the seat bolted to the floor, I am almost to tall for the coupe.

[BradC]

Great project. Keep us posted.

I am going to assume that you are building a roadster. I am not tall at all (5'10"), and with the seat bolted to the floor, I am almost to tall for the coupe.

Yes. I'm planning on the soft top only. I haven't driven the 33 before but I've looked them over close at SEMA a few times. Pedal spacing and footbox room will be easy since it won't have the big trans tunnel. I also ordered the tilt column. I'm right at 6' tall and based on the checking around I did it seems like it will be fine. I do want adjustable seats though - hopefully I can pull that off.

I've driven a MK4. It was a little tight but comfortable enough.

[jayguy]

Sounds like you have definitely done your homework. I was also thinking that having the rear-motor and batteries under the floor will let you skip the trans tunnel and give you more foot room, even though you don't have a clutch pedal to worry about, I know there isn't a lot of room there.

Are you going to run AC? Looked into that yet? With more hybrids out there and electric compressors I am hoping its not too hard to set something up like that.

And yay, more pics!

[BradC]

Are you going to run AC? Looked into that yet? With more hybrids out there and electric compressors I am hoping its not too hard to set something up like that.


No, I don't think I want AC in it. We'll see how things go but for now I'm thinking just a heater.

[Brastic]

No, I don't think I want AC in it. We'll see how things go but for now I'm thinking just a heater.

I have AC in the hot rod coupe and use it. In my Cobra, I just have heated seats and a heater and it is enough. If I was building an EV, I would just use the heated seats and call it a day.

[BradC]

I have AC in the hot rod coupe and use it. In my Cobra, I just have heated seats and a heater and it is enough. If I was building an EV, I would just use the heated seats and call it a day.

Good to know. Thanks!

[BradC]

After several hours messing with the scanner I was able to piece together a first pass scan of the Tesla subframe. I took a few quick larger measurements and it's close. I might have to make cylinders to bolt in where the suspension links mount to provide larger surfaces to scan. I tried it here with just the bolts and I'm not sure it's going to give me the best results.

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[Kamp]

A recent issue of Hot Rod magazine had two big articles on EV conversions. One used the Tesla engine and the other the Ford package. Might be of some interest.

[BradC]

A recent issue of Hot Rod magazine had two big articles on EV conversions. One used the Tesla engine and the other the Ford package. Might be of some interest.

Thanks! I'll look for that.

[BradC]

Got the 3D printed cylinders done to help better locate the pivot points in the scan. So far it's going well - scanning much better.

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[BradC]

MUCH better. I'll mess with extracting geometry from it tomorrow..

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[BradC]

Made good progress on the scanning and CAD work for the drive unit and suspension. I have the suspension pivot locations pretty accurate it looks like. I assembled most of the links to the hub and everything lines up really well. I'm not going to use the Tesla main lower control arm because it's kind of ugly stamped metal. I ordered aftermarket ones from Mountain Pass Performance that are much nicer and will allow for easier conversion to coilover. I'll probably end up getting their full set for the nicer look and extra adjustability.

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The small cylinders are the suspension pivots and motor mount locations from the subframe scan.

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[BradC]

Motor scan is done....

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[progmgr1]

That is Way Cool! I am amazed at how far this technology has come in the few years I've been out of the workforce. Please keep posting, even the small steps. I and many others are avidly following your build.
Keith HR #894

[BradC]

That is Way Cool! I am amazed at how far this technology has come in the few years I've been out of the workforce. Please keep posting, even the small steps. I and many others are avidly following your build.
Keith HR #894

Thanks Keith. Sorry, I forgot to let you know I started the build thread.

No kidding on the scanner technology progress. About 7-8 years ago we bought a scanner at work and pretty much never used it because it was such a pain in the rear. It was something like $45k too if I remember right. This one I bought is infinitely better and much easier to use for a fraction of the price. Still a big investment for me but I don't think I could do this build without it. Maybe I'll try to make a little money on the side with it at some point. We'll see...

[BradC]

Wow! I did a centerline check on the subframe scan results. This is drawing a line from the small pivot cylinders on each side, then placing a point at the mid point of each line. I fit a plane to three of the points and used that to check where the rest of the centerline points are relative to the plane. It's dead on! I actually expected some error but this is perfect.

I need to do more work on the motor scan because I had trouble extracting exact centerlines for the mounts. The 3D printed cylinder trick should work though. Once I get that I'll be able to fully locate the suspension in the chassis CAD model.

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[BradC]

This is the rough motor placement along with the stock Model 3 suspension pivot points. Next I need to pull the pivots inboard to get the width where it should be. I can start thinking about the chassis/suspension design at that point but I won't be able to do much in detail until I get my kit. The chassis CAD model needs to be correct first.

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[Jhinkemeyer]

This is cool stuff! I too have used 3D scanners at work with very mixed results. We recently tested a system from Faro scanning our product and overlaying over our own models in Inventor with very inconsistent results. We still felt like it wasn't there yet for our application and ended up rejecting the capital proposal. I had no idea that there were units available at a price point like that within reach of an individual. Still quite the investment, but perhaps as you say there is a way to make it earn it's keep so to say lol!

It's really cool to see all the work that you are doing. I'm both jealous and impressed!

[progmgr1]

It's really cool to see all the work that you are doing. I'm both jealous and impressed!

I'll second that comment!
Keith HR #894

[BradC]

Thank you guys - appreciate the comments.

Spent a while today working on the CAD file. I started with the ideal situation matching the Ford rear end width of 59.75" hub to hub. That would give me the most flexibility with wheel selection, but it looks pretty tight in terms of making new chassis mounting. I was hoping to be able to use square tubing with simple mount flanges but I can get more elaborate if need be. I can also push it back out a bit too. It just means less dish on the wheels and likely custom backspacing.

I should receive the new lower control arms Thursday and will add them in once I get the part modeled.

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[BradC]

I got the MPP lower control arms today - scanned them and made a CAD model for the assembly. I've also done a bit of work thinking out the chassis changes needed (in green). I definitely see a path to make it all work which is a big relief. Whether the final ends up exactly like this or not at least there doesn't seem to be any major show stopper problems right now. It also looks like I might be able to keep the stock rear deck support struts. The front upper control arm interference doesn't look as bad as I was expecting. I might be able to just notch out clearance spots and add some gussets to cover any strength loss.

Really hope I have the chassis CAD model close. That could change things if not..

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[progmgr1]

That does look feasible / reasonable with no exotic parts to fab. Is your delivery date scheduled yet? I'm looking forward to seeing how close the initial model is to the delivered hardware.

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

I'm not sure on exact delivery date. I have a 5/14 date from FFR which I think is a pick up date. I already scheduled Stewart but don't have an arrival date yet. I'm assuming end of May or early June?

[BradC]

Got a few new toys today.. The rear trailing arms are backordered which is no big deal of course. These will be a nice upgrade from the stock Tesla arms.

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I talked with the transport company last week. They'll pick up the kit later this week, maybe early next and I should have it here by end of the month.

[BradC]

I got word from the transport company that the kit will be here Sunday! I went ahead and ordered the batteries too just so I have them for working out the layout and mounting. I have the wiring plan re-sorted out in CAD now also. I had to change it from the 13 series, 2 parallel layout I was originally assuming, to 2 parallel, 13 series after more education from EV West. Not only is that the better way to wire them as I've learned, it will also make it a bit easier to interconnect - fewer custom bus bars needed.

[BradC]

Something worth noting here in case it helps someone else out later - I spent somewhere north of 2 hours of research trying to figure out the HV DC input lead polarity for the Model 3 motor. The connectors are marked with "1" and "2" but no obvious indication of positive and negative. I couldn't find an answer online but the place I got the motor was willing to allow me to just measure it on a full pack (they didn't know the answer either). I decided to go ahead and cut the one connector off since I'll be splicing that end anyway. I also decided to remove the ugly orange electrical tape that was on the harness leads and look what I found under it taped to each lead. I just had to laugh...

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[BradC]

It's here!

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Busy day yesterday doing inventory and finding a place for all the parts. The backorder list wasn't too bad. The biggest ones were the steering column and front hubs.

Unfortunately they sent me an IRS chassis instead of the basic 4 link. Must have been some crossed wires on the order because I originally had it as IRS and then changed it to 4 link when I figured out the Tesla motor wouldn't fit. I got the 4 link arms though which is odd. Oh well... It's not a huge deal, just more to remove. I'll try to cut it out clean in a larger assembly. Maybe someone could make use of it.

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[hdnik]

My mind is totally blown by this build. Just brilliant! we will be following closely!

[q4stix]

Oh well... It's not a huge deal, just more to remove. I'll try to cut it out clean in a larger assembly. Maybe someone could make use of it.

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If no one else jumps on it, I could certainly make use of the plates / mounting config. I've got to raise my mounts up a significant amount and was dreading cutting up the frame before I knew it all could fit. This would let me tack in a second set of mounts before cutting my existing ones out.

Edit.... thinking about it, may not be as helpful as I was initially thinking since I only plan to adjust the differential position and not the a-arms as well. I'll go back to my original plan :)

[BradC]

If no one else jumps on it, I could certainly make use of the plates / mounting config. I've got to raise my mounts up a significant amount and was dreading cutting up the frame before I knew it all could fit. This would let me tack in a second set of mounts before cutting my existing ones out.

Ok, sounds good. I'll let you know when I have it separated.

[q4stix]

Ok, sounds good. I'll let you know when I have it separated.

Just edited as you were posting. I think I'll need to take another route since I'm not moving the a-arms too

[BradC]

I got the chassis CAD file updated to match. Some areas were dead on but there were a few things off as expected. And of course correcting the problems resulted in less space not more - figures... I won't be able to keep any of the stock framework in the area below the trunk deck and behind the seat bulkhead but that's actually better. It frees up the space to make it so everything fits with better clearances - just a little more design and fab work.

Same goes for the batteries under the seats. They'll fit but not with clearance space like I wanted in case there's ever a bottom side impact. Unlikely as it is, I'd rather not chance it. There are other options to house the 26 packs I need so it's all good still.

[BradC]

Just edited as you were posting. I think I'll need to take another route since I'm not moving the a-arms too

Ok, got it.

[BradC]

Updated design accounting for the chassis CAD model adjustments. I need to finish the suspension mount flange designs and then I'll be ready to send it all out for laser cutting. Should be able to start fab work on the rear soon.

This battery layout works I think. I'll be building a box to house the batteries of course - this just shows the layout concept. I need to check it against the steering linkage path but there's still some room for tweaking the layout if needed. I'm hoping this keeps it close enough to the 50/50 weight distribution. There will probably be about 100lb more up front than with a Coyote but the Tesla motor and other components also weigh about 100lb more than than the IRS diff. and full fuel tank.

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[BradC]

Got a call today that the batteries shipped. I should get them tomorrow.

I'm just about ready to send all the suspension brackets out for laser cut. I had to make the lower trailing arm brackets removable to leave clearance for the motor installation. Should be plenty solid with 4 bolts.

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I kept looking at all the IRS stuff that needs to be cut out of the chassis - ugh. Estimating how much time it would take me to cut and grind it all out (probably a few days), the likelihood of me going too deep and leaving ugly low spots (highly likely), and irritating my neighbors with the noise... I decided no thank you and took it to a local fab shop to have it done. They should be able to remove it all in one piece fairly surgically so it could still be useful to someone. Maybe I can recover some of the cost having it removed by selling it. Either way I'm happy I don't have to do it myself.

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[progmgr1]

Looks like you're making great progress. The sub-frame design looks pretty good to me, but I would suggest adding a couple of dowel pins to the bolt-on bracket joint. Bolted joints don't generally like shear forces, especially in fatigue. Based on the rendering, it appears you have access to press in a pin or three.

I'm curious about the battery arrangement and enclosure design. Do you need to provide cooling for the cells or are they just stacked inside a sealed box? Do you have to take any special precautions against cell failure? I'm just wondering what the current "best practices" are these days.

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

Thanks for the input Keith. I can definitely pin those if needed.

For the LG Chem battery packs I'm using under more normal driving, with the occasional throttle mash, you don't need cooling. Most people seal them in weatherproof boxes for daily driver conversions. I'm going to have airflow running through the box just as an added measure since I don't care about major rain protection with this car. That will give me some extra headroom if I do want to rip it around. Many OEM leveraged packs (Tesla, etc..) have coolant paths so it covers a wide range of use conditions, but also adds a little more complexity for custom builds.

The BMS system will monitor each of the 96 total cells and can trigger warnings to the controller if anything goes out of voltage or temperature range.

[BradC]

I sent the brackets out for laser cutting and bending to SendCutSend. First time I've used them. I can't believe I just recently heard about it, and how reasonable their pricing is!! It was right at $200 for all 22 parts shipped. Two of them have bends. Doesn't even remotely compare in value by the hour to the time it would take me to machine them all on my CNC. Sooo much easier!

Website is really easy too: https://sendcutsend.com/

[progmgr1]

That looks like a great resource. Wish I had known of them a few years ago... What lead times are they quoting?

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

Few days supposedly - I let you know when I get them.

[BradC]

More new toys! Seeing them in person finally really helps better understand how they need to be stacked and wired. I already have a new idea for layout and box design that I'll try out in CAD.

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[BradC]

Got most of the new frame section parts cut yesterday. I stopped by to see the chassis Friday and they had the IRS section cut out, but hadn't done any clean up yet. They were able to do it as a single piece so I'll post it up for sale and see what happens. It looks really clean, much better than I could have done for sure. It should be done Tuesday.

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I sent the lower motor brace out for fab Friday and will hopefully have it early next week. I still need to make the lower control arm pivot piece / motor mount. The place closer to me where I got the chassis steel didn't carry 1.5" x 2" tube, but the place making the brace does so I'll grab it when I pick that up.

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[BradC]

Got the lower brace today. I'm impressed, they did a nice job on it. Dimensions are dead on. It was pretty reasonable at $150.

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The chassis is back too so I'll start assembling the new framework as soon as I get time.

[peterh226]

I sent the brackets out for laser cutting and bending to SendCutSend. First time I've used them. I can't believe I just recently heard about it, and how reasonable their pricing is!! It was right at $200 for all 22 parts shipped. Two of them have bends. Doesn't even remotely compare in value by the hour to the time it would take me to machine them all on my CNC. Sooo much easier!

Website is really easy too: https://sendcutsend.com/

These folks are wonderful. Fast and great quality. Pricing is very reasonable as well.

[Papa]

Wow! I'm totally impressed with the engineering. I'll be following this build to completion!

[BradC]

Wow! I'm totally impressed with the engineering. I'll be following this build to completion!

Thank you!

[BradC]

A friend of mine who knows a lot about suspension geometry pointed out that the motion ratio of the design I had wasn't ideal. The coil overs were too far inboard of the hub. Makes perfect sense now that I think about it. I was able to bring them outboard by flipping the MPP lower control arms upside down and using the Model 3 shock mount points. This makes it nearly identical to the stock FFR coil over location and I'll be able to use the mounts already on the chassis. I'll make nice cosmetic covers for the spring pockets so it will look nice.

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I guess this is technically the first part bolted on for the build!! I'll be tack welding all the new chassis structure in today. Fingers crossed everything fits up!

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[progmgr1]

Glad there was an easy solution to the shock location issue. It's good to have a second set of eyes looking over your shoulder when you venture away from the orthodox build path. Knowledgeable friends are an invaluable resource.

And, x2 on the engineering skills displayed to date!

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

Thanks Keith..

[BradC]

Got a good amount done today. This is as far as I could go because I need to re-make one of the frame parts - I got one of the compound angles backwards. Oops... My miter blade is shot so I couldn't do it today. I ordered a new one that should be here tomorrow so I'll get back on it then.

Everything went in perfect. I'm pretty surprised actually. All the measurements are dead on and it's all square and level to the chassis! It was interesting fixturing the main part I made to the chassis by myself. Nothing a few tie downs and magnets everywhere couldn't solve though.

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[33fromSD]

Great job, looks like it's coming together nicely. One question though, do you plan on welding the relief cuts the metal shop made to help bend the part in the attached pic?

Keeps the update coming, love-em!!

Jim

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[BradC]

Great job, looks like it's coming together nicely. One question though, do you plan on welding the relief cuts the metal shop made to help bend the part in the attached pic?

Keeps the update coming, love-em!!

Jim

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Thanks!! Yes, I planned on welding those up and grinding it all smooth. Just wanted to make sure no adjustments were needed before I do.

[jayguy]

Awesome work! I see you have nut-serts (riv-nuts, thread-serts, etc) installed. Are you worried about them spinning? Are you going to tack them in place as an extra precaution? I guess that would only really be a worry on bolts that required a specific torque or would be removed often enough to worry about, just wondering about it. This is all way beyond my simple bolt-on/bolt-off experience. :P

[BradC]

Awesome work! I see you have nut-serts (riv-nuts, thread-serts, etc) installed. Are you worried about them spinning? Are you going to tack them in place as an extra precaution? I guess that would only really be a worry on bolts that required a specific torque or would be removed often enough to worry about, just wondering about it. This is all way beyond my simple bolt-on/bolt-off experience. :P

Good question.. these are heavy duty ones that aren't supposed to twist. https://www.mcmaster.com/97467A727/ They're much larger diameter and took some pretty good force to set with the dual arm tool I have. Way more than the typical ones you see.

Like you said, it's not a high torque application so I think it's ok, but you never know. I was planning to machine thin Delrin bushing plates to go between the steel parts so they don't just make contact at the nut-sert flanges, but I could leave space for a couple of small ground flat welds. Might be a good idea just for extra measure.

[BradC]

Some images of what I got done today... The coil over is just hanging there with the wrong bolts for a quick visual check.

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[Nigel Allen]

Really enjoying watching and learning. Thanks for taking the time to document both the design work and the actual build, I will definitely be following along also.

This is a very exciting project.

Cheers,

Nigel

[BradC]

Really enjoying watching and learning. Thanks for taking the time to document both the design work and the actual build, I will definitely be following along also.

This is a very exciting project.

Cheers,

Nigel

Thank you!

[BradC]

All the main frame components are tacked in. Everything is plenty strong enough to support the motor and suspension for fit check as expected.

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The parts from SendCutSend shipped today and I should have them tomorrow. Looking forward so seeing how they came out.

[progmgr1]

Brad - Did you put some drain holes in the central U-channel brace? Looks like a place for moisture to collect, which couldn't be good long term...

Great progress! I appreciate your frequent updates and photos.

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

Brad - Did you put some drain holes in the central U-channel brace? Looks like a place for moisture to collect, which couldn't be good long term...

Great progress! I appreciate your frequent updates and photos.

Keith HR #894

You mean the sheet metal brace under the motor? Hadn't thought about that actually. It's not sealed up against the chassis so it wouldn't hold much water long term, but other things could get stuck in it I guess. Maybe I'll machine some openings in it. Thanks.

[BradC]

Wow. Seems well made, definitely well packaged, -- and a bag of sour patch kids!! Haha. I'm impressed.

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[BradC]

Holy crap the motor fits!! :cool:

It didn't go in the way I had planned but with a little time scratching my chin looking at it hanging almost in place I worked out a way to make it go in super easy - just remove the driver's side mount from the motor and then re-attach it once things are in place. The passenger side mount is part of the casting but the other one comes off because there's a coolant line behind it. Very simple now actually which is a load off for sure. There will be a little juggling with the coolant line if I ever need to pull the motor out but it's certainly doable.

I made a simple fixture to locate the three motor mount points and that worked out great.

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Two of the laser cut brackets for the lower drag links had the wrong angle bend, so those are being remade. SendCutSend was great about it and new parts should be here shortly. I'll be taking a week off the build out of town but I'll get back on it and start getting the suspension fit up. I think I might have some of the backordered parts from FFR too by then. Got a tracking notice for 2 boxes at 67lb so it's more than just the coilovers I ordered.

[BadAsp427]

Congratulations... this build is awesome.... Your "engineering" is crazy cool. This is stuff you find in "hot rod" magazines...

[BradC]

Congratulations... this build is awesome.... Your "engineering" is crazy cool. This is stuff you find in "hot rod" magazines...

Thank you!!

[BradC]

I'm back from vacation and got a few hours in on the project today. Driver side suspension is tacked in and seems to be all good. No binding through the full travel. I'll work on the other side tomorrow and then I should be pretty close to sending it back to the chassis shop for professional welding. I'll need to put the motor back in, throw some loaner wheels a friend mine has on the back, and set the body back down to make sure it's all where it should be first.

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[BradC]

The other side is tacked in. I put the MPP suspension linkages on (except the backordered drag links) and all seems good. There's plenty of camber and toe adjustment and everything articulates smooth. It's ready to try on some wheels and set the body on for visual check. I set the hub centerlines at 21.8" back from the rear vertical frame tube per what FFR told me so wheel spacing should be correct, but I definitely want to check it to make sure.

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[BradC]

Looks like it's good to go for final welding. The shop can fit it in next week so I'll take it in Monday.

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I've been working more on the battery layout too. After installing the steering rack and electric power steering motor, I had to change what I had before because of interferences. This layout clears everything (I think) and works with solid copper bus bars on 12 of the 13 series sets. One will need a short 2/0 patch cable from one side to the other which is fine. I think I have workable battery box mounting locations figured out now as well. The main service cutoff switch and samples of some wiring components are on order, so I can get going on more of the battery box design once those arrive.

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[33fromSD]

That's awesome!!

Jim

[BradC]

I just picked up the chassis from welding. Everything seems to have held position with the way they worked around it to balance out the heat load. They did a nice job capping off all the open ends and they actually found a weld that FFR missed on one of the front control arm plates. Kind of unexpected but whatever - things happen. It's all fixed up now.

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I can put everything together again now and take final measurements for the axles - need to have shorter ones made after pulling in the track width four inches. I was surprised to find nobody near me does that kind of work. I talked to a place in Denver last week that can do it though. The guy was really helpful so I'm pretty sure I'll go with them.

[BradC]

Super ultra high tech battery box mock up!! Seems really bulky and in the way, but according to the CAD model it fits under the hood with an inch or two clearance. I'm planning on setting the body on and mounting the grille, side panels, and hood just to make sure before I do any real fab work for the actual battery box.

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This is the box design as it stands now. There's still a lot more details to add in but it's shaping up.

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[mburger]

Been lurking on this build/design/engineering thread and just wanted to say this is awesome on so many levels.
For me, there’s nothing more satisfying than having a vision and making it a reality as you are doing.
Overcoming the seemingly continuous challenges along the way.
Good stuff!

[Papa]

Question: Will the battery configuration interfere with steering?

Dave

[BradC]

Been lurking on this build/design/engineering thread and just wanted to say this is awesome on so many levels.
For me, there’s nothing more satisfying than having a vision and making it a reality as you are doing.
Overcoming the seemingly continuous challenges along the way.
Good stuff!

Thank you! I agree, the challenge is what makes this project fun for me. It’s pretty cool to see it sitting there in the garage after staring at it on the computer for so many hours.

[BradC]

Question: Will the battery configuration interfere with steering?

Dave

I think it all clears but that’s what I need to verify before I spend any money on the battery box. The steering is the reason it’s stacked so high. I would have preferred to keep the cg lower but the electric power steering motor sits down there. I have everything but the steering column so I’ll have to find pictures of where the shaft starts. I’ll install everything and make sure it clears with the plastic mock up box.

[BradC]

I made some mock-ups of the main battery box mounts and got the front end and steering system in place. It all clears with no issues so far. Next is setting the body on and getting the front panels in place. I think once I verify it all clears I'll be ready to start having the battery box parts made.

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[BradC]

Unfortunately the borrowed wheels aren't going to work out once I have to install the rear brakes. They're 17" and they don't fit over the Tesla calipers. That will force me to make my wheel decision much earlier than I had hoped. Ugh.. I always agonize over choosing wheels. I'm struggling between a more classic look like the Artillery style below and a slightly more modern option. I'm leaning towards Ford Washington Blue or a slight variant for the body. I have no idea what color to do the wheels. Go with a tan-ish or light brown powder coat on the classics (to match the interior), or a metal color with the more modern style?? Gotta do some thinking because most likely wheels are a long lead time thing. Any input or other suggestions would be appreciated!

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WheelSmith Artillery - Reasonable price and custom sizing
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Budnik Remington - Too expensive for me at $5300 but I like the style.
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Foose Knuckle - I had these on my 68 Camaro and got a lot of comments on them. Easy price point to where I wouldn't be locked in to them forever. You can't do custom backspacing though so they're not likely to fit. I'll see once I have the body set in place.
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[Papa]

I really like the Foose wheels. Looks like you can get custom offsets through these guys:

https://www.customwheeloffset.com/brands/wheels/Foose/Knuckle?gclid=CjwKCAjwrNmWBhA4EiwAHbjEQNpmbmHgDfFy W5IMTwzgNXljOKfv6bgjNkchDBlcN-Ct93enJ8BA9hoCI2EQAvD_BwE&utm_campaign=2081374537&utm_content=79613443834&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_term=

[JimLev]

I made some mock-ups of the main battery box mounts and got the front end and steering system in place. It all clears with no issues so far. Next is setting the body on and getting the front panels in place. I think once I verify it all clears I'll be ready to start having the battery box parts made.

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I mounted the electric PS to the firewall. In the FFR position the motor was below the oil pan, too close to the road for me.
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Some pics at post 110 & 113
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?26821-JimLev-s-Build/page3

[BradC]

I really like the Foose wheels. Looks like you can get custom offsets through these guys:

https://www.customwheeloffset.com/brands/wheels/Foose/Knuckle?gclid=CjwKCAjwrNmWBhA4EiwAHbjEQNpmbmHgDfFy W5IMTwzgNXljOKfv6bgjNkchDBlcN-Ct93enJ8BA9hoCI2EQAvD_BwE&utm_campaign=2081374537&utm_content=79613443834&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_term=

Where do you see they do custom versions of those wheels? All I see are the standard specs, and it looks like they only carry the chrome in 5x4.5 lug spacing. Thanks!

[BradC]

I mounted the electric PS to the firewall. In the FFR position the motor was below the oil pan, too close to the road for me.
169655

Some pics at post 110 & 113
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?26821-JimLev-s-Build/page3

That seems like a good option to get it up out of the way. Thanks for sharing! I'll have to look at it closer and see where it sits relative to the bottom of the chassis - I didn't pay close attention to that when I installed it yesterday. I was planning on having a plate under there anyway to help protect the lower part of the battery pack, so it will be fine as long as the steering motor fits up above it.

[Papa]

Where do you see they do custom versions of those wheels? All I see are the standard specs, and it looks like they only carry the chrome in 5x4.5 lug spacing. Thanks!

In the top banner of their web page, there is a "Custom Offsets" link. It looks like you can specify custom offsets for pretty much any wheel.

Dave

[FF33rod]

Great progress! Love seeing this come together.

WHEELS - Foose has difference construction available - 1 piece cast, 2 piece cast, forged,..... The 1 and 2 piece cast are the least expensive. Knuckle is available at a reasonable price as one piece cast but with limited specs. I suspect Papa is looking at the more expensive forged option where knuckle is also available. Specific designs seem to come and go from the different line ups. The Coupe design that I got in 2 piece cast with a custom offset are no long available in that configuration...

Battery BMS - what are you doing for a BMS (Battery Management System)? I've seen hobbyists neglect and cheap out in this area which is not good with such a large capacity pack...

Steve

[BradC]

In the top banner of their web page, there is a "Custom Offsets" link. It looks like you can specify custom offsets for pretty much any wheel.

Dave

Ok, thanks!

[BradC]

Great progress! Love seeing this come together.

WHEELS - Foose has difference construction available - 1 piece cast, 2 piece cast, forged,..... The 1 and 2 piece cast are the least expensive. Knuckle is available at a reasonable price as one piece cast but with limited specs. I suspect Papa is looking at the more expensive forged option where knuckle is also available. Specific designs seem to come and go from the different line ups. The Coupe design that I got in 2 piece cast with a custom offset are no long available in that configuration...

Battery BMS - what are you doing for a BMS (Battery Management System)? I've seen hobbyists neglect and cheap out in this area which is not good with such a large capacity pack...

Steve

Thank you!

I'll dig in to those wheels a bit more.

I ordered the Dilithium BMS. It's on backorder but should just be a few more weeks. It will interface with the EV Controls T-2C controller. Definitely not an area to cheap out or ignore!

[BradC]

Actually - did some quick math using my rear track width and the FFR max rear wheel specs from the manual. Comparing that to the standard Foose wheel numbers seems like they might actually work out. I'll have to verify when I set the body down with the rear fenders attached but that would be cool.

However, it looks like they are nowhere to be found right now....

[BradC]

I searched around a lot yesterday for wheels. I went ahead and ordered these from American Racing - Summit has them in stock. Their standard 18x8 works fine for the front end and luckily enough they have a 12mm offset 18x10 option that happens to work out perfect for the rear. They're classic-ish looking and are affordable enough that if I change my mind later once the car is finished it's not a huge deal. I've done this before with wheels so it's relatively likely that I'll want to go another direction later once I get a feel for how the car ends up coming together.

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I also ordered Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires. Should have everything early next week.

[RoadRacer]

I also ordered Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires. Should have everything early next week.

Those PS4S are lasting forever on my car - after 8 months and thousands of miles and a dozen autox events.. I've worn down maybe 1mm of tread.

300TW on a 2200lb car is either great or painful depending on whether you want grip or long life :D

[BradC]

Those PS4S are lasting forever on my car - after 8 months and 5500 miles and a dozen autox events.. I've worn down maybe 1mm of tread.

300TW on a 2200lb car is either great or painful depending on whether you want grip or long life :D

Cool - good to know. I had pilots (bought around 2015) on my Camaro and they were great. I had about 5k miles on them when sold and same thing, not much wear if any. And I wasn't very nice to the rears.

[Tom Veale]

Hi Brad,
That battery box mockup looks like it should be filled with ice and beer.
Tom

[BradC]

Hi Brad,
That battery box mockup looks like it should be filled with ice and beer.
Tom

Genius!! Little more packing tape around the bottom and I think we have a plan for the weekend! Good call...

[Tom Veale]

Hi Brad,

I had my steel wheels made for me by Diamond Racing Wheels in Milwaukee, WI.
https://www.diamondracingwheels.com/

They built them to the style, diameter, width, offset and bolt pattern I wanted and then I had my paint shop two tone them to match my car. Nice people.

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169797
(16" rim diameter; better tire selection at the time)

I just didn't find anything in alloy wheels I liked better than steelies on the FFR Street Rod.

Best wishes,
Tom

[BradC]

Hi Brad,

I had my steel wheels made for me by Diamond Racing Wheels in Milwaukee, WI.
https://www.diamondracingwheels.com/

They built them to the style, diameter, width, offset and bolt pattern I wanted and then I had my paint shop two tone them to match my car. Nice people.

169796

169798

169797
(16" rim diameter; better tire selection at the time)

I just didn't find anything in alloy wheels I liked better than steelies on the FFR Street Rod.

Best wishes,
Tom

Hi Tom,

I really like your car! Very cool and unique look. Thanks for the wheel info. I'll keep that in mind. As I mentioned I'd be surprised if I didn't change my mind later with the wheels. I like the ones I ordered enough to be happy with them through the build process. And then once I can stand back and visualize the car better I'll figure out the aesthetic design.

Are those custom fenders molded in on the rear? I have the carbon fiber set which is all they sell now and they don't look like that.

Brad..

[Mastertech5]

I just started reading your thread and I was toying with the idea of doing this with a GM EV motor so called e-crate engine that they debuted at SEMA a few years ago but the expense and availability changed my mind. Good luck.

[BradC]

I just started reading your thread and I was toying with the idea of doing this with a GM EV motor so called e-crate engine that they debuted at SEMA a few years ago but the expense and availability changed my mind. Good luck.

Yeah - the 'crate' product claims so far in this area are pretty much bs. Same with Ford.. It'll get there I'm sure eventually but for now the Tesla adaptation is the most affordable and available.

Adapting an electric motor in place of an engine is much easier but really only practical on lower power projects - plus you still have the weight, space, and power loss of the original drivetrain.

[BradC]

The place I had talked to in Denver about doing the custom CV axles seemed solid and the guy was really helpful - but, it was going to cost just under $2k. I was having trouble swallowing that so I looked a bit more to see if I could save some money taking them apart myself vs. shipping the whole assemblies out. I found this video showing a Model S/X CV axle teardown and turns out the guy was doing it for the exact same reason as me. The company in Idaho he linked for the axle mod only wants $130 to shorten and re-spline both axles. I just called them and it seems like the way to go. They look pretty easy to disassemble too - assuming the design is similar for Model 3.

Big thanks to Zephyr's Speed Shop on YouTube for posting this!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcA-4gwuYEo

[Tom Veale]

"Are those custom fenders molded in on the rear? I have the carbon fiber set which is all they sell now and they don't look like that."

Early on with the FFR Hot Rod there was a glass shop in California that made these fenders. I'll have to do some research to find their name as it's been 13 years since I ordered them.
Note I put "welt" between the rear fenders and the body work as sort of a throwback thing.
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The two-tone paint ideas came from walking through the car museum in Las Vegas and looking at all the gorgeous two-tone paint schemes on the 1930s era cars there.
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Blue on Blue

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Red on chocolate brown

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Tan on Moss green

Decisions, decisions, decisions!!!

Best wishes,
Tom
PS: I now have nearly 13K miles on my '33 and just finished the 2022 Hot Rod Power Tour in June with it. That was 2592 miles of the total!

[BradC]

Thanks Tom! Glad you're enjoying the car. No need to look for the fender shop - I'm in too deep with the ones I already have. I was just curious.

[progmgr1]

Tom's rear fenders look like bobbed ones that Dan Ruth used to sell. My guess is that it would be a relatively easy DIY mod, as long as you are willing to paint the fenders and forgo the "bare carbon fiber" look.

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

Tom's rear fenders look like bobbed ones that Dan Ruth used to sell. My guess is that it would be a relatively easy DIY mod, as long as you are willing to paint the fenders and forgo the "bare carbon fiber" look.

Keith HR #894

Oh yeah. I talked with that guy before I got my kit. Seemed like he was winding down the business. If I remember right he could still make the rear fenders but not the front sheet metal. Since FFR only sells them as a pair I just went with those.

I had no plans to go bare cf. Not my style and doesn’t go with a hot rod - in my opinion. I’ll see if my body/paint guy has any suggestions when I get to that point…. way down the road.

[jayguy]

Those fenders Tom has were originally build by Langley Kersenboom (LK Motorsports) and later sold the molds/plans to McQueen Prototype Design. https://www.mpdfiberbodywerx.com/
They have them on their page still, down in the Fiberglass panel section.

I have liked these since they were first shown, and have kept track of them every since just in case I ever can afford to build the 33.

[BradC]

Those fenders Tom has were originally build by Langley Kersenboom (LK Motorsports) and later sold the molds/plans to McQueen Prototype Design. https://www.mpdfiberbodywerx.com/
They have them on their page still, down in the Fiberglass panel section.

I have liked these since they were first shown, and have kept track of them every since just in case I ever can afford to build the 33.

Dang, I really wish I had found these before I bought the cf ones. I'll have to think about that. Can I interest you in a set of brand new unused carbon fiber fenders to start your build?? haha

Thank you very much for posting that!

[BradC]

Not bad - these will work out I think.

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[BradC]

I tore down one of the Tesla CV axles and unfortunately it can't be shortened because the diameter necks down past the spline. Bummer.. I'll need to have custom axles made.

170025

[Tom Veale]

Hi Brad, Re: Front Grille....................
What do you plan to do for appearance up in the front. Since there won't be a radiator, will you create a different 'look' for the front and eliminate the grille? It could be the same shape as the current piece but closed off across the face. Might look rather bold.
Best wishes,
Tom

[BradC]

Hi Brad, Re: Front Grille....................
What do you plan to do for appearance up in the front. Since there won't be a radiator, will you create a different 'look' for the front and eliminate the grille? It could be the same shape as the current piece but closed off across the face. Might look rather bold.
Best wishes,
Tom

Hi Tom..

It will still have a small radiator actually. The Tesla motor needs cooling for the inverter and gearbox. I was hoping to be able to fit it in the back near the motor but there's not enough room. I'm also planning to have vent openings through the battery box that will rely on air coming through the rest of the grille.

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[BradC]

Well once again I decided to redesign the battery box. The weight (about 600lb) and cg in the front with all 26 packs in the same box was just bothering me. It would roughly be like sitting well over 100lb on top of a gas engine. I didn't want anything protruding in the interior which leaves underneath the floor the only other option. I had originally planned to do this but when I realized there would be no buffer space, I was worried about a bottom side impact. I talked with EV West again about it the other day and they agreed that the risk was pretty low especially if I had a solid structure surrounding the packs.

I think moving 8 of the packs underneath will be a good balance. That transfers about 170lb off the front, lowers the cg similar to a gas engine, and leaves some room for a small frunk space (as a bit of a novelty). It makes the HV and BMS wiring a little more complicated but that's not a huge deal. I'll add two 1.5" steel rails running front to back and straddle those with plates where the batteries sit. That should protect the packs from small objects and if it were to ever get high centered somehow the rails will support the load without crushing the batteries. I modified the mockup box and it seems much better. FFR shorted me the brackets that mount the nose to the chassis but they should be here Sunday and then I'll be able to visualize it all better.

On to finishing out the design for the front and lower boxes! It should just take a few days and if all goes well I'll be able to order all the parts soon and start work on the chassis modifications.

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[BradC]

Oh, and I got all the backordered stuff from EV West yesterday! Controller, BMS, charger, and DC-DC converter. That's everything major I need to get the wheels spinning - except for some wiring, contactors, fuse holders, etc. but I'm waiting to order that until I figure out where to put everything.

[Tom Veale]

Hi Tom..
.........The Tesla motor needs cooling for the inverter and gearbox.............

OOOPS, I forgot. Even my grandson's RC boat has a water cooled electric motor!

Tom

[progmgr1]

Batteries under the floor are what I've been thinking about for my possible future project. Are you going to have access after the car is built? Making the floorboards removeable or something? All in all, great progress on an exciting build!

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

Batteries under the floor are what I've been thinking about for my possible future project. Are you going to have access after the car is built? Making the floorboards removeable or something? All in all, great progress on an exciting build!

Keith HR #894

You were thinking about converting a Woody right? That would be really cool. Have you thought more about which motor?

Mine will be accessible from the bottom. I'll design enclosures for each side with 4 packs per. They will be under 100lb each so fairly easy to lift up in to place. Flanges in the bottom plate for each pack will bolt to the chassis rails. They need to be sealed up pretty good to keep debris and water out but I'll have access panels on each end for HV cable connection.

[BradC]

I decided I'd better check to make sure my CAD model for the battery packs was correct before I get much deeper in the larger pack designs. This 3D printed bus bar fits perfect!

170259

[progmgr1]

You were thinking about converting a Woody right? That would be really cool. Have you thought more about which motor?

Mine will be accessible from the bottom. I'll design enclosures for each side with 4 packs per. They will be under 100lb each so fairly easy to lift up in to place. Flanges in the bottom plate for each pack will bolt to the chassis rails. They need to be sealed up pretty good to keep debris and water out but I'll have access panels on each end for HV cable connection.

Sounds like (another) good design idea. My Woody project is several years off at least (unless I win the lottery), so motors that will be available at that time may be different. I'm just watching your progress to get some insight into the process and hopefully identify & avoid some of the pitfalls. Thanks again for sharing all this information on the Forum.

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

Yeah, things will change quick in this area in the next few years I’m sure. Thanks for following my build!

[BradC]

The lower battery box approach is shaping up ok. The passenger side will be a mirror image of the driver side so all the parts will just go together flipped. Seems like it will work out. I still have more design work to do on both the main and lower boxes though. The aluminum parts for these are going to be expensive so I don't want any dumb mistakes.

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[RoadRacer]

Yeah, things will change quick in this area in the next few years I’m sure. Thanks for following my build!

We're all following the build Brad, mostly with our mouths open. :p

What you're doing is impressive in so many ways - but to me the best part is watching the cad/cam stuff turn into reality. I'm more of a mockup and then hit it until it fits kinda guy.

[progmgr1]

You might save a few $ by using steel or aluminum U channel instead of the extruded rails. Both are available from McMaster-Carr or your local metal supply house.

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

We're all following the build Brad, mostly with our mouths open. :p

What you're doing is impressive in so many ways - but to me the best part is watching the cad/cam stuff turn into reality. I'm more of a mockup and then hit it until it fits kinda guy.

Thank you! The CAD stuff makes it easier for me actually. It's what I do at work anyway. But - I have a few hammers on hand to force things when needed!

[BradC]

You might save a few $ by using steel or aluminum U channel instead of the extruded rails. Both are available from McMaster-Carr or your local metal supply house.

Keith HR #894

I know, but I'm using the t-slots and center bore for assembly and structural rigidity since I don't have a TIG welder. The LG batteries also just happen to slot in to the extrusion channels - so it also holds them in place too. The material costs more but it's cheaper overall than having someone weld everything. Plus I have some leftover extrusions and hardware on hand already from other projects. Thanks though!!

[progmgr1]

Material in hand and the fact that your cells slot into the rails are big trump cards that outweigh other considerations. Although, it would be a good excuse to learn to weld....:rolleyes:

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

I think I'm done setting things in place, at least enough to be sure I'm not creating any big interference problems with the battery boxes. Next will be to take the whole thing back apart to bare frame so I can add all the new structure. It'll be much easier if I can flip it upside down.

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[BradC]

Material in hand and the fact that your cells slot into the rails are big trump cards that outweigh other considerations. Although, it would be a good excuse to learn to weld....:rolleyes:

Keith HR #894

Very true - but I think it would delay my build well over a year waiting for me to get good at TIG welding. :p I can do a mean MIG tack or plug weld but that's where my skills drop off sharply.

[Iziks]

I don’t have a lift or anything. I used carpet squares and rolled it upside down to drill all the lower floor holes. Worked great for me.170523

[BradC]

Thanks. I think flipping it over is easier than using a lift at this stage anyway! I don’t need to worry about scratching mine still though. And I gave up on my garage floor epoxy years ago. Ha. But eventually it’ll be a concern with the chassis.

[Mastertech5]

You could get 2 engine stands and bolt one to the plate in front and make a bracket of some sort to bolt to the rear frame with u-bolts and you'd have your own rotisserie. You just have to balance it, center of gravity and all. That's assuming your stripping down the frame. I assume you have one stand now. I wonder what's in that FedEx box in the background? Hmm.

[BradC]

You could get 2 engine stands and bolt one to the plate in front and make a bracket of some sort to bolt to the rear frame with u-bolts and you'd have your own rotisserie. You just have to balance it, center of gravity and all. That's assuming your stripping down the frame. I assume you have one stand now. I wonder what's in that FedEx box in the background? Hmm.

Good idea, that would work - but I don’t have one (or two). The chassis mods won’t take too long. Although ask me again after I throw my back out flipping the chassis over…. Ha.

The FedEx box is full of rocks and cardboard. Some guy thinks he’s getting a set of fenders. :cool: Thanks again!! Hope those work out for you.

[Mastertech5]

I didn't even think about your set up. 99% of us have one so you know.

[33fromSD]

If you were close to me I'd let you borrow my rotisserie, it would be perfect for your need but SoDak to MA is not that close at all.

I never thought I'd need or want a lift but I tell you, after you owning one (now 5), you'll wonder how you ever worked on cars in your earlier years laying on your back under it or doing things like flipping a chassis over to work on it. Such a nice addition to a home garage. Then there is the pay me now or pay me later factor where if you tweak something now on your body doing stuff like flipping your chassis over, while you may not feel it now, you will feel it when you're much old and wish you'd never done that.

As my late Dad used to tell me, "We only get one body, Work smarter, not harder". You design a lot great stuff so there has to be some stuff you can design to flip the chassis without tweaking your back or something else. There are guys who have taken 4'x8' sheets 3/4" thick plywood (not OSB), glued another 3/4" thick piece to that and made two disc 8 foot in dia 1-1/2" thick supported by 2x4s (in your case 4' dia disc may be fine), bolted them on to each end of the chassis or unibody and you get a backwoods rotisserie.

Remember, in the end you want to be able to enjoy this ride cruising around, not sitting looking at it in your garage cause it hurts to get in and out.

Jim

[BradC]

I didn't even think about your set up. 99% of us have one so you know.

My last project (68 Camaro with LS3) I just borrowed an engine stand from a friend. They're inexpensive but just something I would be storing 95% of the time.

[BradC]

If you were close to me I'd let you borrow my rotisserie, it would be perfect for your need but SoDak to MA is not that close at all.

I never thought I'd need or want a lift but I tell you, after you owning one (now 5), you'll wonder how you ever worked on cars in your earlier years laying on your back under it or doing things like flipping a chassis over to work on it. Such a nice addition to a home garage. Then there is the pay me now or pay me later factor where if you tweak something now on your body doing stuff like flipping your chassis over, while you may not feel it now, you will feel it when you're much old and wish you'd never done that.

As my late Dad used to tell me, "We only get one body, Work smarter, not harder". You design a lot great stuff so there has to be some stuff you can design to flip the chassis without tweaking your back or something else. There are guys who have taken 4'x8' sheets 3/4" thick plywood (not OSB), glued another 3/4" thick piece to that and made two disc 8 foot in dia 1-1/2" thick supported by 2x4s (in your case 4' dia disc may be fine), bolted them on to each end of the chassis or unibody and you get a backwoods rotisserie.

Remember, in the end you want to be able to enjoy this ride cruising around, not sitting looking at it in your garage cause it hurts to get in and out.

Jim

Totally agree - and I do have a 4 post lift. Best money spent ever. Right now it's a parts box and body storage tool. I was just joking about my back flipping the chassis over. Did it several times already when I was working on the motor/suspension and it's easy enough to not need any kind of rotisserie. Once the car gets more built up though it'll be going on the lift.

[BradC]

Just got a call from Dutchman Axles. They got the one I sent in and don't have any problem making me two shorter ones. Whew. Not too bad at $675 shipped. Much better than the other two $2k quotes I got - worse than the $130 it would have been if we could have shortened them, but what can you do....

All torn apart...

170545

[BradC]

I got the lower battery structure tack welded in place. Tomorrow I'll frame in the gap where the transmission would be and verify again all the measurements match the CAD model. I should be ready to get the battery boxes finalized and parts ordered really soon.

170619 170620 170621

[Mastertech5]

Looks like your making progress. I wish I could say the same. I'm pretty much at a stand still till I get my POL stuff. No shipment today so I'm SOL for now.

[BradC]

Looks like your making progress. I wish I could say the same. I'm pretty much at a stand still till I get my POL stuff. No shipment today so I'm SOL for now.

Yeah. That’s all too common these days. I still have stuff on backorder but it’s all down the road stuff now. What are you waiting on?

[Mastertech5]

Front end stuff, boxed aluminum and LS install kit among other things.

[BradC]

Yep. All kind of important stuff. I waited a while for front hubs, spindles, and steering column. Now it’s down to just some latches, headlight enclosures, stuff like that. I’ve made this difficult enough by customizing everything that I’m sure it’ll all show up well before I actually need it.

[Mastertech5]

I've painted a lot of stuff though. Plenty of time to let things dry properly.

[BradC]

Hopefully your stuff will come soon. I just noticed you’re kit 1294. I’m 1292 so I would think the critical parts will show up soon. I think it was maybe 3 weeks ago I got the spindles and hubs.

The LS will be so nice in that car. I had the LS3 480 in my Camaro and it was a beast. Which version did you get? Can’t remember which cam setup the eRod has.

[Mastertech5]

Hopefully your stuff will come soon. I just noticed you’re kit 1294. I’m 1292 so I would think the critical parts will show up soon. I think it was maybe 3 weeks ago I got the spindles and hubs.

The LS will be so nice in that car. I had the LS3 480 in my Camaro and it was a beast. Which version did you get? Can’t remember which cam setup the eRod has.

E-Rod LS3, 430 HP 425 Lbs/ft torque. Complete with emissions equipment and CARB Certification. CARB Cert. Required here for crate engine unless it meets emissions requirements for the year you register it. If a donor, it must meet emissions of the year of the donor but must have new Cats and O2 sensors. You don't have to worry about that with your build.

[BradC]

All the new chassis structure for the battery boxes is in and welded up.

170712 170713

One problem with the batteries under the floor is that I'll have to keep all of the seat mounting top side - or at least not sticking down past the 1" floor framing. Will have to find some slider rails with flanges maybe.

[Mastertech5]

Looking good! Make sure you bolt the seats into the frame in some way. Could you weld bolts sticking up from underneath recessing the head level with the bottom of the tube? Might be tough tightening the nuts though. Now my brain is in problem solving mode and I am getting ideas on how to anchor the seats. Good luck! I'm sure with your engineering skills you'll come up with something.

[progmgr1]

I figure that it's the seat belts that hold you in the car during a hard stop, and they are strongly attached to the chassis. The seat attachment just has to withstand lateral loads that tend to tip the seats over during hard cornering, so don't need to be that beefy. If I'm suffering another brain cramp on this issue, please feel free to chime in with your thoughts.

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

Thanks. I’ll figure something out. Easy to add custom brackets or whatever to get them mounted solid. A friend has an extra set of slider rails he never used in his cobra so I’ll grab those and get a better feel for what it’ll take.

I ordered the battery box parts. I went over every part in the cad model for probably the 50th time and couldn’t find any problems. Fingers crossed! Problems like to hide out and wait for you to spend money before they become painfully obvious.

[progmgr1]

FWIW, here is a photo of my solution to the seat slider / floor attachment issue. My wife has shorter legs and is shorter overall, so I needed to have the sliders mounted on an incline - the driver's height off the ground goes up while the seat moves forward. Also had the constraints of using spare material already in the garage and clearing subwoofers mounted under the seats.

Keith HR #894

170734

[BradC]

FWIW, here is a photo of my solution to the seat slider / floor attachment issue. My wife has shorter legs and is shorter overall, so I needed to have the sliders mounted on an incline - the driver's height off the ground goes up while the seat moves forward. Also had the constraints of using spare material already in the garage and clearing subwoofers mounted under the seats.

Keith HR #894

170734

Oh that's a thought. Same with my wife in terms of height difference. I'll have to play around with that when I get the car built back up. Thanks for sharing!

[BradC]

Not much I can do fab wise while waiting for the battery box parts to arrive (next week supposedly) so I messed around today with placement for the charger, contactor box, and DC/DC converter. The DC/Dc will go on the passenger side firewall I think, contactor box will go where the fuel tank sits, but the charger location was giving me some trouble. There were a few options like next to the contactor box but this is all pretty thick wiring so it would have made things difficult to install and access for maintenance. Then I tried it in the spot I had originally planned for the radiator, which ended up not working for that. Turns out it's a really good fit for the charger! Just need to design some mounting brackets and I think this is the spot. The connectors will stick up into the contactor box area which will be perfect. The charge port will be in the trunk so that works well too with the charger in that spot. I'll have a removable panel in the trunk that'll give me easy access to all the critical HV stuff.

170899 170900

[BradC]

Spent a few hours today doing Cerakote on the front suspension. I'm nowhere near the point of worrying about cosmetics on the car but I do need to be able fully assemble and grease the front suspension. If I didn't do these now it would only be that much harder later since the prep is so critical with this stuff. Parts have to be aluminum oxide media blasted and absolutely perfectly clean, so it made more sense to do this now. Hope I picked a color I'll still be happy with later - it's their C series "Titanium". So far I really like it but I wasn't able to handle the parts much today. They need to cure for 5 days. A good friend of mine has all the equipment so it made for a fun day in his shop. I did a bunch of CNC machining for his project truck earlier this year so it was a good trade I think. I'll have a ton or more parts to do so hopefully he doesn't regret it! Nasty stuff though while spraying - I was surprised.

171066 171065 171064 171063

[BradC]

Battery box parts are here.. Still waiting on the additional 80/20 rails, but I have enough to get the lower boxes built. I need to flip the chassis over to locate the nutserts for the lower boxes, but then I think I can start building the car up more. I'll probably need to move the lift back over soon and start using it for more than a storage rack - ha.

171203

I've been working out what I need for the HV system (cabling, fuses, contactors, relays, component enclosure, charging system, etc.). I'm still learning what it takes to get everything connected and working, but it feels like the plan is coming together.

The charger mounting bracket designs are just about ready to go. I was missing the flat panel that goes under the fuel tank but I got a shipping notice from Factory Five yesterday - hopefully that's what it is. The contactor box will sit where the fuel tank goes and the charger connections will stick up through the bottom to make things easy to connect and service if needed.

171204

[BradC]

I'm pretty impressed with the dimensional control from SendCutSend. The battery boxes are the first complete assemblies that I've had them do. Everything I've tested so far fits perfectly and the packs sit in nice and snug. Even the thin bent sheet metal covers for the lower battery boxes are dead on. It's pretty cool - they provide the bend radius and K Factor for each specific material and thickness on their website. I used those values in the sheet metal parameters in CAD and it matches up perfect.

I got the lower plates mounted to the chassis but ran out of the high torque nutserts - 3 short, ugh. I ordered more along with the correct bolts for the lower packs. The bolts in the image are just some I had already. Can't wait to get the rest of the extruded material so I can get everything built up.

171240 171237 171236 171239

[Mastertech5]

That is so cool! Those look great. We're all mega curious how this all works out.

[BradC]

Thanks. Me too!!

[BradC]

Good ol' McMaster-Carr and their next day delivery. Bottom box panels all installed. It needed 1/4" spacer rails to clear the metal pans under the seats with a little extra space but it's still tucked up pretty tight. You probably won't even see them when the body is on.

171265 171264 171266

Looks like the 80/20 rails will be here Saturday so I should be able to get the three boxes all assembled this weekend. There are three pieces on the front box that will need TIG welding so once the front box is together and I decide on the final front to back placement, I'll take it back over to the chassis shop for them to weld.

[BradC]

Main battery pack rear panel mounting holes drilled. The alignment came out perfect - whew. I made a little tool to square/center the holes since they go through the 1.5" square tube. Can't have those at an angle.

171274

[BradC]

The main battery box is assembled and set in place. Everything fits perfectly! It's really cool to see it for real having stared at the CAD file for so many hours. I need to machine some Delrin bushings to go between the firewall that will lock the front/back position in place, and then finish the front chassis mount bracket design. Time order the HV components and start working out how everything will connect.

171372 171370 171371

[Papa]

The main battery box is assembled and set in place. Everything fits perfectly! It's really cool to see it for real having stared at the CAD file for so many hours. I need to machine some Delrin bushings to go between the firewall that will lock the front/back position in place, and then finish the front chassis mount bracket design. Time order the HV components and start working out how everything will connect.

171372 171370 171371

Your engineering skills continue to impress the heck out of me. I'm really enjoying watching this move along. Have you considered offering your design to FFR? I suspect that at some point, they would benefit from offering EV versions of their kits.

[BradC]

Thank you!!

A few people at FFR know I’m doing this so if they’re interested and want to leverage my design I’d be open to working with them. I’ll let them contact me if so though. They probably want to wait it out and make sure it doesn’t end up being a total train wreck first. Haha.

[BradC]

Both lower boxes all built up. I think I'll start building the car back up with suspension, motor, etc. and move my lift back over. It'll be better to have everything in place as I start routing the HV system.

171388 171387 171389

[Mastertech5]

That is looking so awsome. Your really coming along. Have you got the actual batteries yet? Do you have the packs made up to fit your boxes or do you do it yourself. Lots of wiring to come. What voltage are you going to run at? What kind of range do you expect to get.

[BradC]

Yes I have the batteries already, made by LG Chem. The image below is two packs sitting in the lower box. There will be 18 packs in the front and 8 in the two lower boxes. Voltage at full charge will be just over 380V. As far as range, I've had a few talks with EV West and their estimate is about 140-150 miles under normal driving, which is fine for a weekend fun car. In the 5 years I had my 68 Camaro I think I drove it over 100 miles in one day maybe twice.

171406

And yes - LOTS of wiring to come. The 2/0 gauge HV system isn't all that complicated but the BMS system will be tedious. Each pack has two 4 wire connections so there are 416 (208 both sides) small connectors there that I need to crimp and route to the BMS controllers. Then there are several harnesses from the controller to the rest of the system - and the standard 12V system.

[33fromSD]

Curious, how much charge do the batteries ship with? I assume limited (10-20%) due to shipping restriction but thought I'd ask.

Jim

[BradC]

I think it's about 30%. They are lithium ion.

[BradC]

Back to sort of looking like a car again. This time it's not all hand tight though - suspension and steering is all snug and somewhat sort of aligned. I'm happy with the Cerakote on the front suspension. I'll be doing the rear links the same at some point, and a bunch of other parts I haven't decided on yet. That stuff is impressive. I coated all the threaded areas and they don't bind at all. If anything it makes them engage smoother. It doesn't get marked up much with greasy hands and it wipes clean super easy if it does. We scratched a sample scrap piece with a key and it's really hard to leave a permanent scratch.

171432 171431 171433

Gonna do some cleaning up empty boxes and reorganizing parts next so I can move my lift back over and get the car on it. I think after that I'm going to route the brake lines and get them functional while I'm waiting for the HV system wiring parts. I placed the order yesterday.

[BradC]

I got everything moved around and the car up on the lift. Much better.

Brake pedal assembly is in and I have the Tesla brake switch adapted (you have to use that one with the EV Controls controller). Same with the throttle pedal, it has to be the Tesla. I designed a mount for the pedal and sent the order in to have the parts made. It's two bent steel brackets that will allow for adjustability of the pedal location, so I had to send them out.

Front brake lines are all done and the first section of the rear is routed. The front was fairly easy since everything is standard. I changed it a little from the FFR manual but al least all the parts I had fit up. The rear Tesla brake lines are a different thread though and of course the suspension is custom, so I'll need to figure out the routing and find adapters. I might run over to the Tesla dismantlers and see if I can get the splitter block and lines. We'll see...

171580 171581 171582

[Mastertech5]

Looking good Brad! I put my engine only in today so I could figure out where to run the fuel and evap lines to.

[BradC]

Nice - I saw your post on it. There are a few different LS3 thermostat housings out there - hopefully you find the right one easy. Someone has to have dealt with that before in this car.

[BradC]

New axles showed up today. They look great. Need to Cerakote them and then I can put the CVs back together.

171605

Go figure - AutoZone had the 10mm fittings for the Tesla brake lines! I had to stop with the rear routing though because the stock rear flex lines are too short to route anywhere useful. Looks like the front lines have the same fittings and they seem to be about the right length. I'll confirm the length and look around for some nicer replacements.

[BradC]

I have all the hard lines installed for the rear brakes. I found new longer flex lines for the rear on Summit that have the 10mm banjo nut the Tesla calipers use and 3/8-24 inverted flare on the other end. Should have them Thursday and that will button up the brake lines. Then the fun can start finding all the inevitable leaks. Ha..

I was trying to figure out how to enclose the massive fuses that need to go in the HV line. I'm using one in between each of the lower battery boxes so it also gives me an easy disconnect point if I ever need to remove them. I couldn't find a tight fitting fuse enclosure and space was sort of limited on the bottom, so I had to design and 3D print my own. This uses 1/4" thick brackets made of G10 holding the fuse that will bolt to the transmission cross member brackets, so it will be completely electrically isolated. I'll make a cross bracket once they are installed to add some support but I think this will work. It still leaves free space along the bottom center for the coolant and wiring that needs to run from front to back.

171742

This is the first half done with the G10 brackets machined. I did it separate just to fit check first. The other half is printing now and if all fits well I'll do the other two parts in one shot.

171743

[Nigel Allen]

This sparky says "Another awesome piece of work"!

With a career in high voltage / current DC electrical, this is one of the cooler solutions to a problem I have seen. Unfortunately this means I will now have to go buy and learn how to use a 3D printer.

Thanks for all the updates and photos, really appreciate it.

Cheers,

Nigel

[progmgr1]

Wait! You're able to 3D print G10 now? Damn I feel old.
You kids sure have it soft now days!

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

This sparky says "Another awesome piece of work"!

With a career in high voltage / current DC electrical, this is one of the cooler solutions to a problem I have seen. Unfortunately this means I will now have to go buy and learn how to use a 3D printer.

Thanks for all the updates and photos, really appreciate it.

Cheers,

Nigel

Whew - glad to hear a pro say I haven’t done something stupid. I promised my wife I would do my best not to burn the house down with this project. Thanks for the feedback!

[BradC]

Wait! You're able to 3D print G10 now? Damn I feel old.
You kids sure have it soft now days!

Keith HR #894

No, the G10 was cnc machined. The black printed part is a fiber reinforced nylon. I’m able to use our printer at work when it’s open and I just buy the material. Not a bad deal. It’s a $90k machine so a bit out of my price range. Although there are some really good hobby grade ones out now.

[BradC]

I got the charger brackets today from SendCutSend. They fit perfect.

171804

One step forward with the charger - one back with the fuse holder. It didn't fit, ugh. When I measured the opening I wanted it to slot in to I didn't see some chassis welds back in farther, so it was too tall. I changed the design and it's reprinting right now.

[peterh226]

I got the charger brackets today from SendCutSend. They fit perfect.

171804

One step forward with the charger - one back with the fuse holder. It didn't fit, ugh. When I measured the opening I wanted it to slot in to I didn't see some chassis welds back in farther, so it was too tall. I changed the design and it's reprinting right now.

Solidworks, sendcutsend, and a 3D printer really help with a project like this! Tools change with the times.

[BradC]

Yeah, for sure. I couldn’t do this project without those toys!

[33fromSD]

The new technology is really amazing. I was repairing a metal fresh air vent inlet box that was rusted through in one area on my 55 F100 the other night and my 18 year old son asked what I was doing so we talked about it and he asked if he could take some measurements of the box and a few pics. I thought it was odd but I said sure.

An hour later he came out to the garage and had a 3D rendering of the box to the exact dimensions which he is going to take into his work place and print it out. He said the material will be as strong as the metal one. It will cost me I think he said like $20-30 in material (I assume the print material).

If it turns out, it will save me a few hours of cutting out the rotted section of the old box, shaping a new piece, welding it, grinding, and painting it. The best part is it will look original but never rust out again. Amazing technology.

Jim

[svassh]

I know electric is not everybody's thing but watching this thread is a glimpse into the future of hot rodding. Well done BradC!

[BradC]

The new technology is really amazing. I was repairing a metal fresh air vent inlet box that was rusted through in one area on my 55 F100 the other night and my 18 year old son asked what I was doing so we talked about it and he asked if he could take some measurements of the box and a few pics. I thought it was odd but I said sure.

An hour later he came out to the garage and had a 3D rendering of the box to the exact dimensions which he is going to take into his work place and print it out. He said the material will be as strong as the metal one. It will cost me I think he said like $20-30 in material (I assume the print material).

If it turns out, it will save me a few hours of cutting out the rotted section of the old box, shaping a new piece, welding it, grinding, and painting it. The best part is it will look original but never rust out again. Amazing technology.

Jim

That's really cool. I love seeing younger kids learning how to do things like that. I have two teenage daughters who aren't interested in car projects - but I'm still holding out hope for them to bring home boys who are. So far there's only been one who thought my Camaro was cooler than video games, but he didn't last long for other reasons. Ha. Still plenty of time.

[BradC]

I know electric is not everybody's thing but watching this thread is a glimpse into the future of hot rodding. Well done BradC!

Yep, definitely true. I hope this is just an addition to and never a replacement for anything else in the hot rod world. I've had a few eye rolls shot my way at cars and coffee for sure but this project is just about the challenge and new learning opportunity in a hobby I enjoy - not anything political. Too bad that always seems to get in the mix though. Such is life...

[FF33rod]

I've had a few eye rolls shot my way at cars and coffee for sure but....

I get that once in awhile too, because it's a "kit car"....

Steve

[BradC]

I get that once in awhile too, because it's a "kit car"....

Steve

Haha. To each their own but I'll take built over bought any day!

[TxMike64]

Solidworks, sendcutsend, and a 3D printer really help with a project like this! Tools change with the times.

Hehe... those are my go to tools for every project!

[33fromSD]

That's really cool. I love seeing younger kids learning how to do things like that. I have two teenage daughters who aren't interested in car projects - but I'm still holding out hope for them to bring home boys who are. So far there's only been one who thought my Camaro was cooler than video games, but he didn't last long for other reasons. Ha. Still plenty of time.

This son is more techy than a gear head, he just figured he could help with the part I was working on. Now my 15 year daughter is 100% gear head. Her date got a flat tire the other night and she ended up changing it cause he had no clue how too. So damn cool!! She's helped me with a couple restorations over the years, knows her way around cars.

Jim

[33fromSD]

Haha. To each their own but I'll take built over bought any day!


Amen to dat

[BradC]

FFR shorted me the back panel that goes under the fuel tank. Not a big deal but I was waiting on it to use as a template for the thicker panel that I need to support the HV stuff. I hit a stopping point on that where I'd like to have it done now, so I just made my own. Good to get back to basics and use the cardboard template and hand cut metal method. This panel would have been too expensive to have made and it's a very simple shape - only $40 for a scrap piece from the local metal supply shop.

171946

I had been thinking about how to install and remove the lower battery boxes once they are too heavy to hold in place one handed. For safety I need the car on the lift with good bottom access for the HV connections vs. on the ground with jack stands. But my lift rail jack wouldn't work well. A low rise hydraulic transmission jack would probably work but they are expensive and bulky to store when I only need it now and then. I found this pipe stand with wheels on Amazon and it hits the mark I think. I had to add a thrust bearing to the screw handle because it wasn't designed to adjust under load but that did the trick and this should work fine. I'll weld a bigger flat plate to to the V for stability but problem solved for under $150, and it folds up for storage.

171947

[BradC]

I've been spending time working out the wiring details. I had to make an Excel map for the BMS to keep track of everything and as a guide for creating the actual wiring and BMS assignments. I have the contact box started and I've decided on the locations for the main components. I designed a panel for the back side of the firewall to hold the power steering controller, BMS, and the motor controller. Sent that out to SCS of course - I'm getting spoiled with that place!

172130 172132 172129

I'm supposed to get the last part (that I forgot to order before) for the front battery box tomorrow. It's way too hot this week - 114 degrees today - but supposed to cool down next week. I'll find some time then to load the car up and take it over to the chassis shop for TIG welding the front battery box parts. Then it comes apart for Cerakote. After that I can install the batteries for good and start on the BMS wiring.

[BradC]

I’ve been mindlessly crimping micro tiny BMS connectors the last two days. So not much interesting to report on that. Getting there though. I have almost half of the leads done. So tedious…

I did get the firewall panel today so that was a nice distraction. It holds the power steering controller, BMS, and motor controller.

172275

[BradC]

Finally got time today to take the car over to the shop for TIG welding on the main battery box. Now I can tear it apart and work on the Cerakote. It takes a lot of media blast prep, cleaning, and 5 days to cure so it'll be a few weeks before I get it all back together. But, when it's done I'll be installing the batteries which will be a big step.

172569 172568

With the front box out I was finally able to fit check the transmission tunnel patch I designed and had made a couple of weeks ago. The bend aligns perfect with the firewall. Still need to drill holes and bolt it around the perimeter but it all lines up well.

172567

And for almost a full week of spare time work - here's what I have to show for it. Did I mention before this is tedious?? I still have 4 more to go and then I have to make 40 thermocouples, attach them to the batteries, and make the harnesses. I have to admit I'm not enjoying this part as much. But it's necessary so no way around it.

172571

[Mastertech5]

Anyone complaining on wiring has got nothing on you. Crimp on!

[progmgr1]

Thanks for posting - I was afraid you had forgotten about us here on the Forum.

Just curious: are you using thermocouples or thermistors?

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

Anyone complaining on wiring has got nothing on you. Crimp on!

I think complaining about wiring is a universal right with any build. Ha..

[BradC]

Thanks for posting - I was afraid you had forgotten about us here on the Forum.

Just curious: are you using thermocouples or thermistors?

Keith HR #894

No, I just had a busy work week plus a new puppy, so I didn't get much attention on the car this week. Mostly crimping wires during work calls.

The BMS controller uses Type K thermocouples. We had a big roll of K wire at work that we'll never use so I 'borrowed' some. We have the bead welder there too so it saves me a little cash. To be determined if it's worth it yet. I'll do a few and see if I decide to give up and buy them.

[progmgr1]

I welded a few TC back in the day and wouldn't recommend them for a high reliability application. They (at least the ones I welded) were prone to the leads cracking near the weld - even if they seemed to be securely bonded to the structure.

Keith HR #894

[BradC]

I welded a few TC back in the day and wouldn't recommend them for a high reliability application. They (at least the ones I welded) were prone to the leads cracking near the weld - even if they seemed to be securely bonded to the structure.

Keith HR #894

Hey Keith - sorry, I forgot you replied on this. We weld TC beads all the time at work and I've never seen it crack. Weird... Thanks for sharing. I'll keep an eye out for that.

[BradC]

So...

There are moments in life that you always remember. Graduating college, getting married, births of children........ and the day you finish the last :mad: BMS harness. Was it worth the $400 I saved crimping them myself?? Yeah, probably but it's close. I would have still had to do all the wire patching, shrink wrap, and labeling which really is the worst part anyway.

172835

[33fromSD]

So...

There are moments in life that you always remember. Graduating college, getting married, births of children........ and the day you finish the last :mad: BMS harness. Was it worth the $400 I saved crimping them myself?? Yeah, probably but it's close. I would have still had to do all the wire patching, shrink wrap, and labeling which really is the worst part anyway.

172835

Plus you can say you did it all yourself!! :o

Great Job

Jim

[BradC]

Plus you can say you did it all yourself!! :o

Great Job

Jim

That is true.. Thanks!

[BradC]

Got the throttle pedal installed with the bracket I designed. I have to use the Tesla pedal which is bit larger, and it blocks the fuse panel area. I'll have to relocate the panel but there's plenty of room behind the dash since I won't have gauges or a blower box. I'll try to leave space for a blower though just in case I decide I want a heater later on. Seems like seat heaters alone will do the trick - plus this will always be a fair weather car anyway. Decision for a later day...

This bracket gives me tons of adjustment on the pedal and it seems like it will hold position just with the bolts tightened down. If it turns out to be a problem I'll use it to set the position I like and then make another fixed bracket for that position. Or maybe just a stop on the floor. Also something to decide later.

172887

For those of you with completed cars - does the brake pedal feel too high while driving? It just looks high but without everything installed it's hard to be sure.

[FF33rod]

No, the brake pedal height isn't bad - it can be adjusted a bit with the threaded rod to the masters

Steve

[BradC]

No, the brake pedal height isn't bad - it can be adjusted a bit with the threaded rod to the masters

Steve

Thanks - I meant the distance from floor to pedal vs. pedal stop position. Length of the pedal arm...

[FF33rod]

Ahhh, gotcha. That's still a no :) I don't have long feet, size 9 and that aspect is fairly comfortable. If you find them a bit high, you can always add some padding to the floor to raise your heel. Come to think of it, between Lizard Skin, FFR thermal & sound package, carpet, and floor mat I guess I have a fair bit of padding compared to the bare floor....

Steve

[BradC]

Cool. Thanks for confirming. I figured it was likely fine but just looked funny as it sits with no floor.

[BradC]

I mocked up most of the HV lines last night. I ran short on cable for the last line from battery to negative contactor so I need to order one more ~7-8 foot length.

The extra slack in the lines is for service once everything is energized. I designed it so I can drop the fuse holders down and away from the chassis to safely disconnect power and isolate the hot end of the cables. Then the boxes can be removed. The front box has a cut off switch that will disconnect the positive line. The zip ties are just temporary - I'll make some nicer bolt in plastic clamps later.

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This is all the waste I ended up with. Not too bad!!

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[BradC]

I have the front battery box all apart and almost all the panels media blasted for Cerakote. Plan is to shoot them Saturday along with the custom axles. I'll be able to reassemble the CVs and start the full assembly of the main battery box after they cure.

I've been trying to decide where to put the 12V battery. I wanted it hidden but easily accessible. The contactor box area was my first thinking (although not super easy access) but it ended up too full once I worked out the HV cable locations. After staring at the car for a while, I decided on in between the seats in the area shown below. It will still allow for good storage in a center console and will be easy to access from below the car. I need to finalize the design a bit and work out a clamp to hold the battery in place, and then I'll have the parts made.

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The battery I got is for a motorcycle. It doesn't need to be a typical full size because there's no starter. The power steering motor and probably seat heaters will be the biggest draw. Everything else is minor and the DC/DC converter can easily keep up with everything on at the same time.

I looked around a little for a center console I could just buy but I'm not finding anything I like. So I'll just design and build my own. That's better anyway since I can make it exactly how I want it.

Looks like the fuse panel will fit on the opposite side of the dash. The bracket that comes with the kit is meant for the other side where it won't fit now and is really flimsy, so I'm making a new one from 1/8" aluminum.

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[J R Jones]

Soichiro Honda, founder of Honda Motor Company, was allegedly the first to coin the phrase: “Racing improves the breed” Works for horses.
Maybe NASCAR EV racing will influence electric cars; this from Hemmings this AM:
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/electric-stock-car-to-sema/

jim

[BradC]

Thanks for sharing that. I'm definitely enjoying watching the evolution of EV into the racing and hot rod worlds. I can see NASCAR being a hold out though longer than others like Formula. There's just something about engine sounds with racing that will be hard for electric to compete with. I've watched Formula E a few times but the coverage is kind of dull compared to what I'm used to with F1.

[BradC]

I got the new fuse panel bracket installed. It's pretty much the same as the one FFR provides adapted for the other side of the dash, but the thicker material is much better than the one you get with the kit. I'm in the process of mounting all the key components so I can get wiring located correctly. I'll be taking the stock harness apart eventually and thinning out the stuff I don't need, but not until everything is working and I'm certain of what all can go.

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Tomorrow is Cerakote day for the front battery box and the rear axles. Lots of parts to do. Crossing my fingers they come out good!

Since I'm getting closer to dealing with some serious voltages I needed to get some safer tools. Found these that are rated for 1000V isolation for working on the battery boxes and fuse junctions. They have isolated socket extensions too that I might get but not sure yet if I'll need them. I'm still looking around for what gloves I need too - but the most effective tool I think is going to be just trying not to do anything stupid! haha

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[Papa]

I got the new fuse panel bracket installed. It's pretty much the same as the one FFR provides adapted for the other side of the dash, but the thicker material is much better than the one you get with the kit. I'm in the process of mounting all the key components so I can get wiring located correctly. I'll be taking the stock harness apart eventually and thinning out the stuff I don't need, but not until everything is working and I'm certain of what all can go.

173196

Tomorrow is Cerakote day for the front battery box and the rear axles. Lots of parts to do. Crossing my fingers they come out good!

Since I'm getting closer to dealing with some serious voltages I needed to get some safer tools. Found these that are rated for 1000V isolation for working on the battery boxes and fuse junctions. They have isolated socket extensions too that I might get but not sure yet if I'll need them. I'm still looking around for what gloves I need too - but the most effective tool I think is going to be just trying not to do anything stupid! haha

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These are what my electrician uses.

https://www.amazon.com/OTC-3991-10-Hybrid-Electric-Safety/dp/B004GDQXIU/ref=sr_1_18_sspa?crid=JQ2OFBTUX8ZX&keywords=electrical%2Blineman%2Bgloves%2Bhigh%2Bvo ltage&qid=1664575262&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIzLjUwIiwicXNhIjoiMi45MiIsInFzcCI6IjI uNDEifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=high%2Bvoltage%2Blineman%2Caps%2C128&sr=8-18-spons&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.f5122f16-c3e8-4386-bf32-63e904010ad0&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExWDU4UlUwS1MxN1cyJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzkxNzc1MVhGN0ZCSTk3R1dHTSZlbmN yeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwODYzMjIzMU1YUUVVU0pSVTgwVSZ3aWRnZ XROYW1lPXNwX210ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05 vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1

[BradC]

Cool - thank you!!

[BradC]

Well, Cerakote day was a mixed bag. All the smaller parts are perfect but the larger panels ended up with a subtle stripe pattern in the direction of spray. You can't see it at all in the sun but inside it shows - weird. After some researching we think it was a combination of air pressure (too high) and time between coats (too short). Oh well.. I'll go ahead and build up the battery box as is and then once it's in the car I'll pull the top and side panels off and redo the coating. They aren't structural.

I wanted to get the seats mounted before the wired up lower battery boxes go back in so I've been working on that. I don't think I've ever spent so much time trying to locate four freakin' holes but the driver side seat is in. Now I can use that as a template for the passenger side, so it should go faster. I had to locate the rails on the seats correctly so that I can access the mounting bolts from the top, then align the rails to the chassis so that the travel and side to side position is correct and comfortable. I have about five inches of travel so there's plenty of range for me and my wife who's much shorter.

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[TxMike64]

I saw this in my feed and thought it might be of interest. KC Tool has a sale on insulated tools: https://www.kctool.com/seasonal/?rfsn=5802283.d413ea5

[BradC]

I saw this in my feed and thought it might be of interest. KC Tool has a sale on insulated tools: https://www.kctool.com/seasonal/?rfsn=5802283.d413ea5

Thank you!

[BradC]

Passenger seat all installed. It was much easier than the first one as expected. On to loading packs in the battery boxes this weekend!

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[Mastertech5]

Go for it! Then more connections to make? I follow your build every day with great interest. I wish I had the room to store everything in a complete kit so I could have got it all at once. There are things I feel should be in the Stage 1 kit that aren't and visa versa. I wished they had designed the grill to attach to the radiator after it was installed rather than needing the grill to install the radiator. No exhaust and no steering wheel. Basic things you could go kart with. I have lots of moving blankets to use as a seat. I'd gladly pay a little more for the 1st stage and less for Stage 2. Lucked out with a bike fender kit though, thanks!

[BradC]

Thanks! Yeah, just a 'few' more connections to make... This wad is just BMS and temp sensors.

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That's surprising that the stage 1 kit isn't enough to go kart it. That would seem like something obvious to me, but I guess not. Sorry to hear. Like you said though, at least you have fenders - in a giant custom box! Haha

[BradC]

Started assembling the first lower battery box. Installed the BMS leads and the first bus bar without letting any sparks out of the batteries.

I had looked into having the lower box panels coated in bed liner, but they wanted too much for it. Looked into doing it myself but it was still over $100, and I really didn't want to mess with epoxy primer and coating. Plus, that's a pretty final decision and difficult to remove if I changed my mind later. I found this new vinyl coating that's meant to be like bed liner. It's 35 mil thick and looks great. Only $50 for enough to do both boxes and the 12V battery plate.

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Center bus bar block
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Box as it sits so far. I need to join and test the BMS connections and make brackets to lock the packs in place laterally. Then I might make bus bar covers to help prevent accidental contact. Then I can put the cover on and move on to the next box. This feels like progress!

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[BradC]

I've admittedly gotten a bit lazy lately with ordering parts from SCS but it's usually cheaper than buying raw material retail and machining myself. I could rummage through scrap tables and do better but then you don't always know what you're getting - then there's the time. These little spacers I need for the main battery pack ended up being something they couldn't make in plastic with their standard tooling so I had to do them. HDPE is one of the materials that is much cheaper to buy and it was good to fire up the cnc. All done!

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The first lower battery box is almost done. I'm just waiting on some knurled carriage bolts to help make it safer to attach the HV lines. The BMS wiring tested out good and I'm clear now on how the rest is wired.

[BradC]

Got the 12V battery plate today. It all fit up perfect. I'll do the vinyl covering on it to match the battery boxes and get everything installed once I get some washers I ordered that will help keep the vinyl from twisting up as I tighten down the bolts.

The plastic clamps for the battery are 3D printed with embedded carbon fiber for extra strength. That battery isn't going anywhere.

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[cc2Arider]

Nice work! I've enjoyed your build thread...You are really blazing a trail here :)

Craig C

[Mastertech5]

Ditto! That means same here for the younger crowd that never experienced mimeographs- copies before copiers.

[BradC]

Thank you guys!

And for the record, I definitely remember ditto copies at school...

[BradC]

The first lower battery box is all done and installed up in the car. Started on the main box today and got a fair amount done on it. Still lots to do with it of course (wiring and more wiring) but it's good to confirm that the packs all fit well.

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I need to order all the bus bars for the main pack tomorrow. I keep putting it off...

[33fromSD]

Looks great Brad, nice progress. Now that we have an EV ourselves (My wife's 2022 Mustang Mach-e....err, I hate that name but that is another discussion for a different day) I've been following this thread to get an idea of how all the boys & pieces come together. you're build page is great for showing the details, its the stuff you never see on a completed car.

Curious, how much do the various completed battery packs weigh?

Keep up the great work!

Thanks,

Jim

[BradC]

Thanks Jim. Figuring out how everything works on an EV and how to make it fit the 33 has been the fun challenge with this. I knew absolutely nothing about it when I first started thinking about doing this project a year ago. The info is out there but you definitely need to dig for it.

I agree on that - Ford messed it up using the Mustang name. Seems like a cool car that can stand on its own merits, so why tag it with the Mustang name and piss off a big chunk of customers? Oh well...

I haven't weighed it myself but the CAD model says the lower packs are 105lb each and the main one is 420lb. It does seem about right having lifted up the lower pack now.

[33fromSD]

Thanks Brad

[BradC]

All packs are in the front box with temperature sensors in place. Everything fits. The bus bars are pretty expensive so I wanted to make sure the most complicated of them fit before I placed the order. Had this material laying around as scrap so I machined a test part. Shockingly it fit dead on without having to widen the mount holes - which is something I don't want to do because it reduces the contact surface area to the battery posts. I'm actually pretty surprised it lined up so well when you factor in stack up tolerances across three rows and columns of packs. I went ahead and placed the order for the front bus bars.

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We'll try the Cerakote again tomorrow with reduced air pressure and application process changes for the top and side panels of the box. Hope it works better this time. That stuff was kind of a chore to media blast off back down to bare metal.

[Papa]

... I'm actually pretty surprised it lined up so well when you factor in stack up tolerances across three rows and columns of packs.

Skill, not luck!

[BradC]

Ha. Hey, if it fits I’ll take either one!

[33fromSD]

All packs are in the front box with temperature sensors in place. Everything fits. The bus bars are pretty expensive so I wanted to make sure the most complicated of them fit before I placed the order. Had this material laying around as scrap so I machined a test part. Shockingly it fit dead on without having to widen the mount holes - which is something I don't want to do because it reduces the contact surface area to the battery posts. I'm actually pretty surprised it lined up so well when you factor in stack up tolerances across three rows and columns of packs. I went ahead and placed the order for the front bus bars.

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We'll try the Cerakote again tomorrow with reduced air pressure and application process changes for the top and side panels of the box. Hope it works better this time. That stuff was kind of a chore to media blast off back down to bare metal.

Nice work Brad. Looks great!

Maybe I missed it, but what are your plans for a cooling fan on the battery pack assembly? I ask because on my wife's EV the first time we charged it I heard a fan running which I thought was odd, and the higher the completed charge rate the faster the fan ran. When I called our local Ford dealer they noted this is all normal and the fan I'm hearing is a cooling fan in the battery pack to help prevent the batteries from over heating during charging.

Thanks,

Jim

[BradC]

Thank you..

I don't have any active cooling for the batteries. The boxes are vented so there will be some airflow while moving but it's actually not needed for this setup. EV West encloses these packs in sealed boxes for the conversions they do, mianly for protection against water for daily drivers. This will be purely a fairweather car so I'm not worried about that.

Production EVs have active battery cooling and warming (usually liquid) for a few reasons. They need to design to a much broader range of operating environments, worst case usage levels and drivers, and DC fast charging. I can control usage and I'm not setting this up for DC fast charging yet, just 220 AC. That inherently avoids excessive heat for the packs during charging. The BMS will also be monitoring temperatures and cell balance, and can start and stop charging as needed. Same goes for heavy throttle usage. If the temperatures start getting high in any area I can set the BMS to throw a warning and/or scale back on the allowed power draw. That should only come up with prolonged high draw like if I took it to a track though - which I don't plan to do.

Later on when the DIY capability gets a bit more mature I may change it over to be DC fast charge capable. It woud be a nice feature but not really necessary for a non daily driver.

[33fromSD]

Thank you..

I don't have any active cooling for the batteries. The boxes are vented so there will be some airflow while moving but it's actually not needed for this setup. EV West encloses these packs in sealed boxes for the conversions they do, mianly for protection against water for daily drivers. This will be purely a fairweather car so I'm not worried about that.

Production EVs have active battery cooling and warming (usually liquid) for a few reasons. They need to design to a much broader range of operating environments, worst case usage levels and drivers, and DC fast charging. I can control usage and I'm not setting this up for DC fast charging yet, just 220 AC. That inherently avoids excessive heat for the packs during charging. The BMS will also be monitoring temperatures and cell balance, and can start and stop charging as needed. Same goes for heavy throttle usage. If the temperatures start getting high in any area I can set the BMS to throw a warning and/or scale back on the allowed power draw. That should only come up with prolonged high draw like if I took it to a track though - which I don't plan to do.

Later on when the DIY capability gets a bit more mature I may change it over to be DC fast charge capable. It woud be a nice feature but not really necessary for a non daily driver.

Got it, Thanks for clarifying.

Jim

[BradC]

Back to BMS wiring hell...

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It'll all be bundled up when done but right now it doesn't look so good. I have 5 of the 13 series groups done and then there are all the thermocuple leads to do. That's enough for today - I need a break.

[Mastertech5]

Can you imagine working for a battery manufacturer and doing that every day? Looking good Brad!

[BradC]

Can you imagine working for a battery manufacturer and doing that every day? Looking good Brad!

No, I couldn't imagine doing something that tedious all the time. I actually went to the Tesla factory in Fremont once for work a few years ago. They were integrating one of our products on their production line equipment and needed engineering help with it. I got the non-public tour of the line which was pretty cool. Their battery pack assembly line looks nothing like the one in my garage! They have it just a bit more refined than I do.

[BradC]

Who do you think would sue me first?? Haha...

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(Dave, Elon - I'm just messing around...)

[Mastertech5]

That's awsome!

[BradC]

I finally have the front box BMS wiring done. Whew. The bus bars should be here tomorrow. I need to machine some plastic protectors for all of them but I should have the front box all buttoned up ready to drop in shortly.

The cluster of wires down low look like a mess but I'll clean them up once that lower bus bar is in place.

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Side panels on just to make sure everything lines up after being all apart.

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[cc2Arider]

Wow! Very sanitary looking...like something that would come out of a "clean room" ... :)

Craig C

[Mastertech5]

I know it fits in the "engine bay" but it looks rather large sitting there, like it wouldn't fit. Great job!

[BradC]

Wow! Very sanitary looking...like something that would come out of a "clean room" ... :)

Craig C

Thanks - the occasional profanity cloud floating in the air keeps it from being "clean room" clean though. Ha..

[BradC]

I know it fits in the "engine bay" but it looks rather large sitting there, like it wouldn't fit. Great job!

Funny - I was thinking the same thing looking at it on the ground. And this is the smaller version. I originally had all 26 packs up front.

[BradC]

Got the bus bars today and was able to make the ABS covers for them. These will help prevent accidental shorting if I'm working on the box in the car. Or any time the side panels are off.

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