Transmission options for those with health problems: Flappy Paddle Gearbox

[Doc_FFR]

No I'm not talking 5 sp vs. 6 sp. I'm asking if an automatic with a flappy paddle gearbox could ever be feasible.

Hear me out.

I’ve never driven anything other than manuals. My 818 is going to be a manual. However, there’s someone close to me I’m trying to interest in one of these projects and he has some health problems that may put a manual transmission out of reach. :( He’s a racer at heart though, and I thought if there was any way I could get him at least some paddles to shift (it’s like a Ferrari, man!) then he’d be onboard and we could do this together.

Help forum Obi-Wan Kenobi’s, you’re our only hope.

[Slaughter]

I know of someone over on the Lotus forms who made his Elise a 500 - 800 HP Fappy Paddle monster. You can go out and buy these gearboxes - but be careful - they are quite expensive and require some know-how to put it together.

[PhyrraM]

Another option would be a factory 4 speed auto with a custom controller that allows direct access to each gear.

Transmission control is really just controlling a few soliniods at the right time and in the right sequence.

[thebeerbaron]

Since the 818 "platform" will also support a to-be-determined eco-engine, and you're already building a kit car, why not go with an engine that is already available with the flappy-paddle gearbox? Sure, it would become a 2-donor kit and you'd have to do your own fab for some stuff, but isn't that half the fun?

[Twinspool]

You don't have to cannibalize another powertrain, it can be retrofit to the existing gearbox. Ariel Atom owners have already done it. It'll lighten your wallet for sure but it is cool, if untraditional.

http://www.geartronics.co.uk/paddleshift.htm

[PhyrraM]

You don't have to cannibalize another powertrain, it can be retrofit to the existing gearbox. Ariel Atom owners have already done it. It'll lighten your wallet for sure but it is cool, if untraditional.

http://www.geartronics.co.uk/paddleshift.htm

That's pretty cool. It appears to control the existing shifter rod and throttle with air cylinders. The overall shift speed would still be dictated by the scyncros.

Very cool, but expensive.

[sid]

I'm interested in this as well. I have a medical condition that makes it very hard to drive a standard.

Why not use a auto from a Impreza and then tune the pcm for the turbo motor?

Or something like this....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/00-01-SUBARU-IMPREZA-WRX-AWD-AUTO-TRANSMISSION-EJ20T-/230673187965?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35b531847d

[sid]

What about running an Impreza auto trans and PCM then retune it for a turbo engine. Then maybe something like this
http://mastershift.com/

[Doc_FFR]

You don't have to cannibalize another powertrain, it can be retrofit to the existing gearbox. Ariel Atom owners have already done it. It'll lighten your wallet for sure but it is cool, if untraditional.

http://www.geartronics.co.uk/paddleshift.htm
Wow, that's great! Looks like about $5,000 on the low end. How did you hear about these guys? Is there anyone in the USA doing something of similar quality?

[StatGSR]

I thought people hade already dome this to there Subarus. I will have to check on nasioc

[Mike Downs]

From reading what they have on their website, it sounds like there is still a clutch. If you friend is disabled and can't use a clutch, then I don't think that this is a solution. They list "clutchless up/down shifts" which includes a cylinder to 'blip the throttle'. So I think that it still requires a clutch to start off from a dead stop.

[skullandbones]

Hi Doc FFR,
I can understand your concern for your friend. I, too, had a health concern. Bad hip made clutch pushing a possible issue over time.

However, if your friend is a real hot rodder, he might be able to live with a more simple solution. I just read an article about a Mustang racer running high 11's at the strip with a similar engine setup that many people use on the forum (400+ hp) and a C4 trans with a 4500 stall TC. And the surprising thing was it was not a full race trans. You can shift manually with the right valve mods and get a pretty good manual trans feel (or not shift). Just my opinion. WEK.

[Doc_FFR]

From reading what they have on their website, it sounds like there is still a clutch. If you friend is disabled and can't use a clutch, then I don't think that this is a solution. They list "clutchless up/down shifts" which includes a cylinder to 'blip the throttle'. So I think that it still requires a clutch to start off from a dead stop.

Dang. I'll have to read their website a little more closely... I was hoping not to put him through the a clutch pedal.

[riptide motorsport]

Required reading before you try to paddle shift a tranny.....Lots of breakage::(

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/42-factory-five-gtm-forum/256963-sequential-gear-box-paddle-shifted.html

[skullandbones]

If you have time, go to Mastershift.com. They are advertising that "the other guy" had a Daytona Coupe with paddles. WEK.

[Twinspool]

I thought people hade already dome this to there Subarus. I will have to check on nasioc

Most likely you're thinking of a sequential dogbox that skips the H pattern for the front-back shift lever. No synchros in those so you can keep the skinny pedal flat but they tend to be noisy.

[Draco-REX]

Have you considered an auto box with a ratchet shifter like the drag guys use? Might be the most cost effective solution.

[StatGSR]

Most likely you're thinking of a sequential dogbox that skips the H pattern for the front-back shift lever. No synchros in those so you can keep the skinny pedal flat but they tend to be noisy.

Not even close to what i was thinking. I Was just thinking of the universal paddle shifter kits you can get for automatic transmissions...

Like...
http://www.tunersgroup.com/Products/Works_Bell_Paddle_Shifter_NEO_Kit_Paddleshifter_Pa ddle_Shift_Paddleshift.html
http://www.evasivemotorsports.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=116PS-IMPREZA&Category_Code=WB-PADDLE-SHIFTER

[16g-95gsx]

A true auto trans setup would make this a reality, and as others have pointed out simple aftermarket shift control systems would make paddle ****ing easy, or even a steptronic trans shifter. In the end shifting a 4 spd auto is like binary code, it's very simple and many aftermarket systems support this. With proper line pressure and race fluids, I dont see the trans dieing on him, and in fact I see it being faster in a straight line and holding up better to launches. You do have an added weight associated along with an additional trans fluid cooler. With a turbocharged engine you don't need to run all that loose of a torque converter, which keeps it much better for streetable manners.

[Doc_FFR]

From reading what they have on their website, it sounds like there is still a clutch. If you friend is disabled and can't use a clutch, then I don't think that this is a solution. They list "clutchless up/down shifts" which includes a cylinder to 'blip the throttle'. So I think that it still requires a clutch to start off from a dead stop.
I watched some of the videos and it looks like the guys are using their left foot to get the car going from neutral to 1st gear. I've driven cars with paddles before... No clutch pedals there. I guess the difference is starting with an automatic transmission vs a manual transmission.

[Doc_FFR]

So... The answer is a 4 speed auto tranny with one of the aftermarket paddle shifter kits? Okay. There's not a five speed auto tranny for subaru's that would fit is there?

[StatGSR]

I suppose one could use a newer five speed automatic. It would all depend on your donor.

[Doc_FFR]

I suppose one could use a newer five speed automatic. It would all depend on your donor.
What year donor would I need?

[PhyrraM]

IIRC, 5 speed automatics are only factory installed behind the 6 cylinders. Not sure why though. 4 cylinders went straight to a CVT from the 4 speed.

Also, the 4 speed auto is available from the factory in 2WD form in pre-96 cars. I'm not sure how easy it would be to convert a 5 speed to 2WD use.

IMHO, with the light weight of the 818 - combined with Subaru's generally higher than normal 4cyl torque - I can't see a 4 speed being that much of a detriment. It might even be better in some aspects because of the wider gear spacing.

[305mouse]

New Legacy's have 5EAT. However, it isn't easy to hook up the ECU with the TCU. I have heard they won't talk to each other. I had talked with the people at IPT about it before. Why not a 4EAT with a modified valvebody and high stall TC?

[Fast818]

I Have a Mitsubishi Galant VR-4 (also call Legnum in JP) V6 2.5lt twin turbo east west mount 4WD with 5 speed auto/ manual box INVECS (Intelligent & Innovative Vehicle Electronic Control System)
maybe this engine and trans combo may fit your needs?

INVECS-II
Despite sharing its name with the previous system, the second version of INVECS was a radical development, based on Porsche's Tiptronic semi-automatic transmission technology.[5] As with Porsche's version it allowed for either a fully automatic mode, or a clutchless semi-automatic mode if the driver wished to control the up- and down-shift points. It also offered the same Adaptive Shift Control software which monitored and "learned" the driver's habits over time and adjusted the smoothness or aggression of the gearshifts to suit his or her driving style.[6] It was first implemented in the new Mitsubishi FTO in 1994.

INVECS-III
The third version of INVECS was further advanced, and now offered a continuously variable transmission when in fully automatic mode, or a six-speed clutchless manual if the driver wished to control the up- and down-shift points. A further innovation for Mitsubishi was the introduction of paddle shifters allowing the driver to make manual gearchanges while their hands remain on the steering wheel.[7]

INVECS-III was introduced in 2000, in the eighth generation of the Mitsubishi Lancer.[8][9] The paddle shift option was first seen on the second generation Mitsubishi Outlander which debuted in 2005

Technical specificationsEngine

Configuration — DOHC 24v V type 6 cylinder
Code — 6A13TT
Bore/stroke, capacity — 81.0 × 80.8 mm, 2498 cc
Compression ratio — 8.5:1
Fuelling — ECI-MULTI, premium unleaded fuel
Peak power — 206 kW (280 PS; 276 hp) at 5500 rpm
Peak torque — 367 N·m (271 lb·ft) at 4000 rpm
Transmission — 5 speed semi-auto / 5 speed manual
Suspension — Multi-link (front & rear)
Dimensions
Length — 4,680 mm (184.3 in)
Width — 1,760 mm (69.3 in)
Height — 1,420 mm (55.9 in)
Wheelbase — 2,635 mm (103.7 in)
Curb weight — 1,520 kg(3,400 lb)
Fuel tank — 60 L
Wheels/tyres — 225/50 R16 91V
Performance0–100 km/h (62 mph): 6.0 seconds (depending on shape and trim, this can vary)
Top Speed: approximately 244kmh (152 mph) when derestricted

[Exidous]

Ideally a twin clutch manual automatic like in the Misubishi Evo MR or the Nissan GTR would be the perfect type of transmission however I cannot think of any out there that would be remotely cost effective. (Think Lambo/Ferrari) Nor would they be able to control the drive-by-wire properly to "blip" the throttle during shifting. A full blow automatic would be this simplest way by far if you can find one from a car whose electronic control is independent of the ECU for the motor. I bet an older subie would have one. MAYBE a Porsche boxer transmission? Did they do the manumatic thing?

The boxer motor is what is holding you back for a paddle shifter. There would be a number of options if they did come out with the TDI setup.....a transverse mounted motor would do the trick......hrm Evo MR motor and trans anyone? :-)

Something like this perhaps. (http://www.vertexauto.com/ShowItem/208723%20Porsche%20Boxster%20Rebuilt%20Tiptronic%2 0Transmission.aspx) I fear the orientation of the transmission might be backwards though for what we are looking for. The Porsche site says it's Mid rear instead of rear rear. Can anyone confirm?

[D2W]

I'm assuming from all this talk that the WRX never came with an automatic, or its crap? Can someone please confirm this.

[Evan78]

It was available with an auto from 2002-2010.

[PhyrraM]

I think it's just that 4 speed autos are out of fashion now, so they don't get any attention. The WRX unit is reasonable enough, some WRX guys actually prefer it over a 5 speed for drag racing.

[Admiral Doom]

It will be extremely hard to convert a Subie automatic to front wheel drive...all the 5-speeds have an electronic center diff just like the STi 6-speeds. Hopefully, though, we will have another option. If FFR builds the eco-818 to use the TDI transmission as well as the engine itself, that opens up a WHOLE NEW can of awesome! VW/Audi's DSG (6-speed dual-clutch) transmission will be a great choice! Very easy to use paddle shifters, no clutch pedal, and shifts like a madman! That would also let us use a whole host of VW engine options in addition to the Subie stuff. A 3.2 v6 or 2.0 turbo engine with a DSG box would be a BLAST to drive, and even the wife could drive it on occasion!

[StatGSR]

It will be extremely hard to convert a Subie automatic to front wheel drive...all the 5-speeds have an electronic center diff just like the STi 6-speeds.

you can convert a Subaru 4EAT into FWD by putting in a fuse..... seriously, there is a fuse box in the engine bay labeled FWD.... done... it may not be the "right" way, but it is a very easy way

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv163/cbickell/IMG_1059copy.jpg
or
http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/American-Trucker/20-1.jpg

[305mouse]

It will be extremely hard to convert a Subie automatic to front wheel drive

Did you know that if you pull a certain fuse on any automatic Impreza, be it 2.5i or WRX, it becomes FWD. I believe this is true for many other Subaru models as well.

[StatGSR]

^ you have to put a fuse in actually... it is normally removed

also, to late! :D

[305mouse]

Beat me to it. Is it pull a fuse or insert a fuse? Might have changed at some point. Either way, it's just a fuse that's needed.

[PhyrraM]

The old 4speed auto has the front drive part connected directly to the output shaft of the transmission part. The RWD part is enganged by a clutchpack controled by a duty cycle soliniod. When the clutch is at full lockup technically the whole front/rear is locked together, Subaru calls this 50/50. This duty cycle soliniod is bypassed when the fuse is inserted, there-by releasing the clutch and sending all power to the mechanically connected FWD output. Normal operation has the solinoid control the duty cycle of the clutchpack varying the RWD portion betwen 10%-50% torque.

This applies for 90% of the 4speed automatic USA models from 1990-2007. There is a very small percentage of 4 speed autos that have a "real" center diff, these are called VTD (Variable Torque Distibution) that do not have the directly connected FWD output.

[Admiral Doom]

I think adding the fuse still allows the rear to get around 10% of the power instead of 50/50. Also, I believe that only the 4EATs have this option...I don't think the 5EAT has that fuse. It would be awesome if we could use the Subie transmission as many/most donor cars at least have an automatic option, but I think the DSG VW box would make a GREAT Autox/Track transmission. The more options the better!

Edit: After more research, the center diff does unlock fully with the fuse. Still leaves the mechanical end, but it should be possible!

[Ks2]

I'm assuming from all this talk that the WRX never came with an automatic, or its crap? Can someone please confirm this.

it isnt the worst automatic out there and i could certainly live with it for a daily driver wrx... i drove one in a modified wrx (03) and it worked quite well to put the extra power down, seemed a bit slower off the line then my manual but shifted fast and smooth. the automatics are common as most people want to get rid of them in favor of the 5speed or 6 speed

i imagine in a car with far less weight and only 2 tires the automatic will be even better hopefully others who have lived with that transmission for a longer period then an afternoon can offer more insight

[Exidous]

On such a light car you could put a small stall on it and it would probably become a monster. At least in a straight line. :-)

[Inthenameofweez]

WRX goodies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2TX_g5MzwY

[StatGSR]

^ as BA as that transmission is, i also have a decent idea of how much that one cost to build, as the owner and the builder are part of the local suby forum, not cheap

[Inthenameofweez]

Just giving examples. :D

[PhyrraM]

I think that the 5 speed auto is more bragging rights than a real need or advantage.

As light as the 818 is supposed to be, plus the fact that we are talking about a (usually) turbocharged motor that needs load and time to build full power, I think a full manual valvebody converted 4EAT is the better choice between the two. Add the cost and availability factor and, to me, it's a no brainer.

[Doc_FFR]

I think that the 5 speed auto is more bragging rights than a real need or advantage.

As light as the 818 is supposed to be, plus the fact that we are talking about a (usually) turbocharged motor that needs load and time to build full power, I think a full manual valvebody converted 4EAT is the better choice between the two. Add the cost and availability factor and, to me, it's a no brainer.

What about freeway driving? Is missing the extra gear going to make the rpm's so high it's going to be loud at 70 mph? What would the effects be on top speed?

[thebeerbaron]

What about freeway driving? Is missing the extra gear going to make the rpm's so high it's going to be loud at 70 mph? What would the effects be on top speed?

An 1800lb car is going to be loud at any speed. Doubly so with the engine right behind your ears. I know you're not expecting a grand tourer, but I don't think there will be too many conversations going on at 70mph, extra gears or not.

[PhyrraM]

Wikipedia lists the final gear at 0.697:1 for the 4 speed and 0.834:1 for the 5 speed. *Generally* it's only the domestics that use the extra gear for super high overdrive ratios.

The 4 speed will give lower RPMs for the same final drive.

The 5th gear is usually used to give the auto a "close ratio" feel, smother shifts, and better use of available engine torque. All of those are partially addressed by the much lighter weight of the 818.

[305mouse]

My 92X is a 4EAT and it was quiet before the exhaust and EWG :p

[Evan78]

My 92X is a 4EAT and it was quiet before the exhaust and EWG :pWow, cant' be too many Saabarus out there with an EWG.

[305mouse]

only a couple out of about 11K made between 2005 and 2006

[D2W]

forgive my ignorance, what's EWG?

[PhyrraM]

External waste gate.

[Evan78]

Don't you love it when everyone speaks in acronyms? It's awesome when I go to a forum for a vehicle I'm new to and everything is shorthand and they use completely different names for parts I'm already familiar with.

[305mouse]

Sorry. It was all new to me at first too with that being my first turbocharged vehicle. Now I toss out ewg, fmic and others without ever thinking about it.

[thebeerbaron]

Don't you love it when everyone speaks in acronyms? It's awesome when I go to a forum for a vehicle I'm new to and everything is shorthand and they use completely different names for parts I'm already familiar with.

It could be worse. Early on we agreed that no one would speak of "Stages" here. Ever try to wrap your head around those? Worst forum idiom ever...

[Evan78]

It could be worse. Early on we agreed that no one would speak of "Stages" here. Ever try to wrap your head around those? Worst forum idiom ever...Yeah, I remember that conversation, very good suggestion.

[BrandonDrums]

I'm late to this thread but wanted to chime in. I believe the previous gen Legacy GT automatic had gear selectors on the steering wheel. I remember talking about it with my local Subaru shop who the head mechanic also worked at the main Subie dealer, he was sayingit was one of the better and quicker shifting automatics out, "not bad for a fake paddle shifter" he said. I can't remember if it was the GT or the H6 but there's a Subie auto with a pretty quick "manual mode" that could work.

The other thing to consider is Dave is talking with ford about employing their Ecoboost engine for a high mileage model. Those make good power and I believe they have an honest to goodness 6 speed dual clutch "powershift" transmission for it.

Last I remember, the dual clutch auto is in the premium focus but the main complaint is that it didn't have a "manual" option. That could change here soon with the focus ST so it's possible you could built an 818 with a true 6 speed dual clutch tranny without sourcing any crazy aftermarket devices.

[Doc_FFR]

The other thing to consider is Dave is talking with ford about employing their Ecoboost engine for a high mileage model. Those make good power and I believe they have an honest to goodness 6 speed dual clutch "powershift" transmission for it.
Sounds like a good idea. I guess we'll just have to wait and see on the ford engine though...

[2KWIK4U]

I would like to build an flappy paddle automatic. I must be getting older that I don't want to shift that much. Besides my wife has told me she want's it to have a automatic, so I guess she has given me my opinion!! ;)

[armstrom]

I know this is going off the reservation a bit, but one option would be to go with a motorcycle engine/trans and an air shifter kit. If a 1300cc hayabusa engine can fit in (nearly) the same space as the 3cyl 1000cc Smart Car engine, I imagine it would fit nicely in the back of the 818. There are chain driven differentials that have support for reverse also.. They're not cheap, but they're out there ($3000-$4000 or so for the differential). Just another option.
-Matt

[SccrMan13]

Or just put the new ford st drivetrain in it with the dual clutch transmission. 250hp and split second shifts= awesome.

[sub322]

We have a 2006 Legacy AWD with Sport Shift, I have a great time driving it in sport mode. This could suit your friend really well.

A question for everyone, could paddle shift be made for the sport shift trans?

[BrandonDrums]

We have a 2006 Legacy AWD with Sport Shift, I have a great time driving it in sport mode. This could suit your friend really well.

A question for everyone, could paddle shift be made for the sport shift trans?

Looks like you can put in paddle shifters for just about any automatic transmission. I found a company that makes such kits online for 03-06 auto legacies but I haven't come across any how-to info yet.

**Edit, I was lazy and didn't realize someone already posted something similar

http://strafeautomotive.com/product.php?productid=17621

Also, I found that in 2007, Subaru launched coulmn mounted paddle shifters for all Legact GT and H6 models so all Legacy GT's and H6 models since have the paddle shifter buttons standard. Those models also came with the SI drive which is a cool throttle-mapping feature.
http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/42-australia-new-zealand/5946-2007-legacy-outback-here.html

So, perhaps you could source a wrecked 07' Legacy GT automatic for the ECU, wire harness, steering wheel and the other interior bits since all of those will swap directly into the 818. Just put in or pull out the center diff fuse to make the tranny FWD and the rest should bolt right up (assuming the 5AT isn't too long). Depending on the interchangeability, you could then use the legacy hubs+ brakes with FFR sourced suspension bits or just source salvaged Impreza parts for the required suspension components to get a full donor set.

I think all in all, using the 07+ leggy parts would make for the easiest build vs. custom rigging the electricals to accomodate aftermarket paddle shifters. Not to mention the Transmission control unit was specifically programmed for the Legacy to have particularly quick manual shifting vs. other sport shifting autos.

BUT If I wanted the paddle shifters, I'd probably spring for a crate ford ecoboost and transmission if FFR ends up making it an optional factory drivetrain for the 818 since it's a true dual clutch. But you can make way more power with the Subaru bits and for less than with the Ecoboost stuff.

[StatGSR]

^5EATs dont have a fwd fuse. The transmission doesnt use a clutch pack like the old ones to send power to the rear. Atleast that is what i thought i learned about them.

[BrandonDrums]

^5EATs dont have a fwd fuse. The transmission doesnt use a clutch pack like the old ones to send power to the rear. Atleast that is what i thought i learned about them.

you're probably right, someone earlier in the thread said the same thing but then posted an edit saying there was a fuse for the 5EAT. I just read a thread on the leggy forums where there was some back and fourth. Looks like there is a fuse but instead of being fully FWD, it goes to something like 75% fwd and 25% rear which would burn the clutch pack in the center diff.

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/hand-brake-question-5eat-153077.html

The guy in there has a poorly written explanation but seems to know what he's talking about. He says the 5EAT has a planetary center diff vs. the 6mt and 5mt's traditional spider gear differential. Regardless, since it's a geared diff and not an electronically controlled wet clutch torque converter system, I bet you can weld the diff up to full lock or even replace it with a closed gearset to make it 100% FWD.

I'll look around more for pictures of the planetary diff from the 5EAT, perhaps we can see if that mod is plausible.

[Doc_FFR]

Or just put the new ford st drivetrain in it with the dual clutch transmission. 250hp and split second shifts= awesome.
Do you think that the handling might suffer with a non-boxer type engine?

[thebeerbaron]

Do you think that the handling might suffer with a non-boxer type engine?

Oh, why don't we dig up this corpse again? :)

Kidding. But the debate has gone around in a complete circle a few times on this one. I think the best answer was along the lines of "maybe, but probably not unless you're an alien behind the wheel"... But I'm probably wrong :)

[Doc_FFR]

...just in time for the walking dead to come back on TV!

Sorry, I missed the previous debate.

[SccrMan13]

It could put more weight over the rear tires for traction. Should be just like a cheaper lotus elise. I really want to see a drivetrain with a dct

[StatGSR]

Or just put the new ford st drivetrain in it with the dual clutch transmission. 250hp and split second shifts= awesome.

where are you getting this information from? everything i read about the new ST is that it comes with a 6spd manual and the DCT is used in all the lower models as a replacement for a traditional automatic, on top of that i hear the DCT is actual pretty lousy, not good as an automatic, and not sharp enough to be like a good DCT...

[SccrMan13]

I saw it listed on a probably unreliable auto blog. The transmission that they should use is the getrag powershift 6DCT451. I have no clue if it would fit. As far as the shifting is concerned that is more than likely the ecu settings which can be altered. Look what hpa motorsports tune has done for the vw dsg box.

[riptide motorsport]

heres a great option!;

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3977-Hand-control-for-clutch-pedal