JForand - Atlanta Build [Archive] - Page 2

jforand

05-20-2021, 09:55 AM

All good stuff. I read the post on the NOID light, but I think my brain went here verses internalizing the tool.

148202

Kind of fitting for me right about now :)

I am about as 100% certain as I think I can be that the injectors are not firing as I know if I give it fuel (starter fluid) it runs fine. I further know it has voltage on the injectors and fuel flow and pressure. If they fired at all the engine would at least cough a bit on some fuel dribble. I still hold the belief that the ECU is not seeing some sort of 'go for flight' safety check and the software is holding the injectors back. If the new (to me) FPMC and/or the loaner ECU (thanks to Bob n Cincy and ajzride) don't get it fixed then the NOID light will be the new addition to the tool chest.

On with the waiting....

Ajzride

05-20-2021, 10:08 AM

ECU will be there Saturday. If I recall it is for an AUTO, so you may have to jumper a ground for the transmission OKAY to GO.

jforand

05-20-2021, 11:10 AM

ECU will be there Saturday. If I recall it is for an AUTO, so you may have to jumper a ground for the transmission OKAY to GO.

Ok, I’ll look into that.

Just found one posting right off the bat on SubaruForester.com that goes through the auto to manual swap. It said "contrary to popular belief, at least for 05+ there is NO pin you have to ground on the ECU to tell the ECU your car is a manual now".

It kills me how many people scramble these car's parts and what they dig into. Amazing.

jforand

05-24-2021, 09:09 PM

Ajzride

05-24-2021, 09:53 PM

Frank818 feels your pain, he fought that one multiple times.

J R Jones

05-24-2021, 09:59 PM

jforand

05-25-2021, 06:02 AM

J, For what it is worth I have a Toyota MR2 (1991) that I bough in NC after it had been stored, maybe outside. It was giving me fits and I suspected fuel. I drained and flushed the tank. It was running and I took it to Madison (70 miles) and had intermittent trouble. The fuel pump noise was obnoxious. When I installed the new filter. I drilled and tapped the banjo bolt for a pressure tap/schaeder valve. Pressure was OK.
I pulled the tank (between the seats under the shifter) which is two day job. The Walbro pump sock, like yours, was caked and disintegrating. The tank had about 3/8 inch of tan sludge on the bottom that took a pressure washer to clean out.
I got a new Denso from Rockauto, which is a bigger, heavier, quieter pump. The strainer is a big mesh cage.
The key point here is the Toyota pump bracket is more supportive, your blow-off could never happen. The mount is "L" shaped and supports the pump with an isolated leg below. The pump is trapped by the hose above and the bracket below.
I put a tie wrap around the pump and bracket just in case. Yeah it took another two days to put together. 148451
You might consider a similar support.

I like your bracket much better.

I actually had re-engineered the original bracket (cut it and flipped it 180) that came with the pump to essentially do just that. There was an angled bracket that screwed to the little plate with the two threaded holes. It went down and then there was a hose clamp around the pump motor and extended bracket. It was really sweet until there was NO way to finagle it through the hole in the fuel tank. That was a pretty big bummer so I had to punt so to speak. I really did not expect this to happen with the pump pretty much on the bottom of the tank, but it did.

I guess I did not manage to snap a picture, but I did do a zip tie and a worm drive hose clamp around the pump. I had to limit the possible extension, but also allow for some serious flexibility and distortion to work it into the tank. The zip tie starts under the hose clamp, goes up and around one of the tubes, and then back down under the hose clamp. I hope it will handle the job. I really don't understand why there is not a much more substantial bead/barb on the end of the pump for the hose clamp to engage with.

I was wondering a bit about the long term viability of a zip tie submerged in gasoline. Glad to hear someone else tried that as well.

J R Jones

05-25-2021, 10:06 AM

J, Nylon is non-absorbent, and safe in gas,
Hobby is inspirational with his use of safety wire. In your case maybe a safety wire tether (bottom - up) to the bracket above would help.
Yeah, the pump assembly goes in one way only. What you can't see in the MR2 photo is two 26 inch hard lines on the mount plate.
jim

fletch

05-25-2021, 02:40 PM

jforand

05-25-2021, 07:59 PM

I remember all of Frank818’s trouble. I hope you can get this sorted quickly. And you’ve got me concerned about my fuel pump setup. Good news is that mine is easily accessible and I plan to look it over when I add foam to the fuel tank later this week. Thanks for the reminder!

I think I have it sorted out and am looking forward to running.

If it’s not too much trouble, would you mind sending the unused ECU back my way? I’d like to test my Arduino data collection with it on the bench.

I gained the knowledge that the ECU is actually the property of Bob n Cincy. I have a note into him asking if he requires it back or if I am free and clear to ship to you. I'll get it headed to one place or the other when I hear back.

I will need and address from you fletch assuming an all clear. Feel free to PM me.

jforand

06-02-2021, 10:58 AM

After much conversation, the highest mileage ECU (probably more than if is was actually in a car) is on its way back to Bob.

Thanks to all for helping work through the problem.

fletch

06-02-2021, 02:14 PM

Yes, glad we got that sorted out and sorry to Bob and you for unintentionally sowing confusion. It was a weird mix-up of memory.
Definitely a high mileage ECU!

DSR-3

06-04-2021, 10:26 AM

I have an ECU and dash, of unknown mileage, for the cost of shipping to anyone who wants them.

Frank818

06-05-2021, 06:22 PM

So today was the grand day of package arrivals.

Plugged in the new FPMC and checked to see if the 12V signal appeared on the ECU D28 wire and it did. This is going to be awesome.....turn the key and no difference!!!

Ok, plug in the loaner ECU and turn the key....no difference!!!

Ended up trying a new Engine Coolant Temp Gauge as mine was reading 3.3V and it is supposed to be 1-1.4V with a warm engine. The ECU apparently looks at the Temp Sensor on startup for injector pulsing. Not knowing the scale I just picked one up and plugged it in. It was within 0.2 volts and again not the answer.

Getting kind of mad now.

Ended up plumbing in a fuel pressure gauge. Only took 4 trips to 3 separate stores to get all the fittings. Can't get the thing to register a single psi??? I even disconnected the fuel hose and shot fuel into a cup. I will admit that the fuel into the cup was neither as much nor as forceful as I thought it should be, but it was a decent amount of fuel. So I went after the pump in the tank.

This is how it came out. See and issues?

148447
before anyone asks, NO the golf ball did not come out of the fuel tank :D

I guess the stream sometimes lined up with the discharge tube and threw a slug of gas out the tube? How in the heck does this line up in perfect coincidence with shorting power to the intake manifold?

One final question. Anyone want to guess what the first step is on the no-start diagnostic check list is.....yep, fuel pressure!!!

Very humbling, gonna crawl back under my rock now.

The good news is it seems to be totally fixed. Thanks to all for the help and suggestions.

I'm late on this one, did I understand correctly that when you took the pump hanger/fuel pick-up out, the pump was disconnected from the fuel outlet hose?

The alignment of the pump and hanger is pretty bad, there is torsion on the hose. That torsion plus hanger movement/vibration makes the hose want to come out.
You have to make sure of 2 things:
1- Align the hose so that the torsion is minimal
2- The pump must have no movement or very little and hard to make it move.
You also have to tighten the hose clamps very hard so they don't slip and do your best to have grip on the pump's plastic outlet, the edge is often way too smooth and round so it doesn't grip good. When vibrations come into play, if the pump has movement relative to the top of fuel pick-up, you're screwed, the hose will slip out and get you stranded. Happened 4 times to me until I realized I needed to go violent on a new solution design.

However on your pic I do not see the hanger at all. What is the pump attached to?

You mentioned you think you got it fixed, now. That's also what I thought after my 1st fix attempt. I also thought that about after my 2nd.... then 3rd...
Can you please provide details on your solution?

I can provide pix of my setup if that could help.

jforand

06-08-2021, 08:12 AM

I'm late on this one, did I understand correctly that when you took the pump hanger/fuel pick-up out, the pump was disconnected from the fuel outlet hose?

Correct, it came out of the tank as the pic shows.

The alignment of the pump and hanger is pretty bad, there is torsion on the hose. That torsion plus hanger movement/vibration makes the hose want to come out.
You have to make sure of 2 things:
1- Align the hose so that the torsion is minimal
2- The pump must have no movement or very little and hard to make it move.
You also have to tighten the hose clamps very hard so they don't slip and do your best to have grip on the pump's plastic outlet, the edge is often way too smooth and round so it doesn't grip good. When vibrations come into play, if the pump has movement relative to the top of fuel pick-up, you're screwed, the hose will slip out and get you stranded. Happened 4 times to me until I realized I needed to go violent on a new solution design.

So it does look a bit bad (torsion wise), but I am not taking the pump over to the metal bracket that you see. The pump is hanging straight down on the black rubber tubing as straight as you see the tubing in the pic. I spent a bit of time playing with the stuff from the kit. I flipped things, cut things, got to where I liked it, but could not manipulate it into the tank through the relatively small tank opening. So much of that work was abandoned.

However on your pic I do not see the hanger at all. What is the pump attached to?

So it is obviously attached to the hose and I needed something to tether it to the main assembly that would both prevent 'extension' away from (out the end) of the hose AND allow for side to side bending movement as the entire thing needs to be bent in the middle like 45 degrees or more to get it into the tank and then it can straighten again. The whole thing is very much less than ideal in my mind. I failed to take a pic, but the current solution in play is a zip tie. I place a metal worm drive hose clamp around the pump's metal body. I then took a zip tie and went under the clamp, up around some of the main metal plumbing, and then back down under the hose clamp again.

I totally agree that the connection to the pump is total crap (though you did not exactly say that):D If they had molded a proper bead around the end of the pump's hose barb for the hose clamp to positively engage behind this would never happen.

It will be tested this weekend at Road Atlanta Saturday and Sunday with NASA. I really hope I do not need to employ a rollback.

You mentioned you think you got it fixed, now. That's also what I thought after my 1st fix attempt. I also thought that about after my 2nd.... then 3rd...
Can you please provide details on your solution?

I can provide pix of my setup if that could help.

Someone mentioned you had been around this block, was wondering what they meant by that. Four times! Based on what I know and what you have experienced it will be totally different if it happens again. You used "violent", I'll go with medieval. The first thought would be to make a proper hose clamping bead. Thermo forming the end of the barb is likely possible. Heat it up and flare it out. This could possibly be good enough. If it is deemed more structure is necessary a metal ring could be inserted into the flare so it sits roughly half way down the angled inner flare wall and then thermo form the end of the flare back over the ring to lock it in. If all this goes up in flames (not literally) a better pump and tank fitting would be welcome. Honestly, a whole new tank solution would be welcome. I am running the 33 hot rod tank and am not a fan for several reasons.

One other thing I just thought of would be to cut off all the bent metal tubing and unused metal bracket (internal to the tank off). This would remove the bending requirement to get it into the tank and allow for a much more solid mounting arrangement......this might be the way.

Frank818

06-08-2021, 06:23 PM

Ok we totally agree on everything! Fuel pick-up hardware is crap, fuel hanger is crap and fuel tank is bad solution. :)

I tried that zip-tie all around solution:

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12179-Frank818-1993-VW-VR6-Turbo-donor-Build-Thread&p=386404&viewfull=1#post386404

Didn't work.

So I went a step deeper in the medieval thinking: I bought the best flared-out pump I could find that was still fitting my requirements. You can see the flare difference here: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12179-Frank818-1993-VW-VR6-Turbo-donor-Build-Thread&p=400427&viewfull=1#post400427

Then I slashed it! Creating small grip points all around the outlet (tnx to someone else's idea), not knowing if it would make any difference or not, but you gotta admit that looks Dark Ages time. And I did a bunch of other stuff like cutting the small tubings and drilling holes for bolts in order to prevent any movement in any axis as possible.

I cut the tubings cuz this way it's easier to fit in the SO DAMN SMALL hole on top of the tank, you can't even fit your hand through it's awfull.
There is no bending play, but can still barely drop the unit in the hole, but I need to play with the angle at various stages of the drop-in in order to clear all parts from cutting on the sharp edges of that tank hole.

I started running this around April 2020 and after 2000km it has not failed. Previously it was failing in less than 150km.

If you test your solution at the track, that is the best you can do. Doesn't matter if suddenly your fuel pressure goes to 0, no one will laugh at you, you won't wait the tow truck for an hour in hot Sun and it'll cost nothing, assuming you don't wreck when the pressure drops. I got lucky, out of my 4 failed attempts, 3 times I was right in front of my garage door! Last time I was on a back road, but luckily still, only 2km away from home. I learned I could not mess with that installation, it is totally unforgivable.

Let us know your test this Saturday. What I am worried about is that it could pass that track test, but maybe it will weaken the pump connection and not long after 2-3 rides later it will fail. I very highly suggest you get the pump out after that track day and validate how secure the connection is. Trust me, it's worth trying! :D

jforand

06-09-2021, 10:14 AM

Frank, What a saga!

I will certainly be pulling it. after Road Atlanta and I am then headed to the VIR event at the end of June. I think about 6 of us will be there, should be a ton of fun. Hobbyracer has a link "let's all meet at the track"

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?38232-Let-s-all-meet-at-the-track!

"lucky spots to break".....so mine broke IN the garage just sitting there. Not sure if you read ALL of the litany, but I shorted a wrench to the block a couple days after I parked it and thought that was why it would not start. I ended up running down EVERY single system, fuse, wire, diagnostic process, swapping ECUs, Fuel pump control modules, you name it. Seriously, there was nothing left to try and no smoking gun after a solid 50+ hours of trouble shooting. Step one is fuel pressure and because I heard the pump and fuel splashing assumed it was all good and I must have electrically fried something. Had the car quit on the road I would have never blamed the no start on the shorting of the wrench and saved all that diagnostic work and time.

Anyway, it is a little tough to tell in your picture of the ziptied mummy of a fuel pump (Rev 1 fix), but it looks like your 'looping' zip tie goes up over the hose clamp, which should likely have been ok. Mine goes up around the silver metal tubing up higher. Likely no appreciable difference.

I almost want to pull it out now......

Currently I am chasing tires. In my laps around the neighborhood (not registered R model) and a commuter bus lot (which appears to be really nice and clean) I have managed to get a screw in the driver's front tire, which I plugged. I also picked up a piece of glass in the driver's side rear (separate outing), which is in the shoulder and no one will patch and I do not want to plug. The tires are basically unavailable anywhere right now for some reason so I had to order two different ones for the rear. So another 530 buck for two tires and running with a plugged front and the odometer has 13 miles on it!!!! (the tires probably have 40 miles on them). That is some pretty poor tire luck right there.

J R Jones

06-09-2021, 11:39 AM

j, I feel your pain. I was brush cutting last week and found two lengths of barbed wire stuck in my tractor (rear tire) side-wall. As an aside the 4x4 Kubota runs Blizzak winter tires for my biggest challenge, plowing snow.
My forever tire guy has no tubes because he has to order in lots of 20. Amazon to the rescue.

I should have suggested earlier that I did development in the marine industry and created USCG (US Coast Guard) compliant recreational stuff. The USCG is very fire sensitive and a basic requirement is two hose clamps on every fuel hose coupling. One screw-hex aimed one way, and the other is to be opposite.

Creating a hose bib ring is a challenge, and as you know it is to offer interference for the clamped part of the hose. As an alternative a cut/filed groove under the clamp would improve grip.
jim

fletch

06-09-2021, 11:54 AM

This suggestion is probably already overcome by events but I’ll make it anyway. I have used JB Weld to create a bead on various fittings in the past. I’ve had no issues to date with any of these fittings coming loose. Just my two cents as another option to consider. Best of luck.

Frank818

06-09-2021, 06:03 PM

jforand

06-09-2021, 08:13 PM

OK, you win Frank. I went out there and pulled it out. To answer your question about run time on the fix, about 5 miles. I had no confidence in it.

Here are some pics of what was:

149288 149289

So, that is no more. I was going to thermo form a bead on the hose fitting, but that hit a snag as the tip of the barb holds in a plastic fitting that guides and retains a one way check valve. There was no way to retain that and do what I wanted. I I wen with Fletch's JB weld idea for the bead.

149290

This was the setup to get it cured and I was going to form it tomorrow. Honestly this really bugged me, not because I thought it would not work, but I have a busy day tomorrow and I did not want to wait to get it wrapped up and the tank closed back up. I played a bit while it was curing and this is what I came up with:

149291 149292 149294149293

I like this much better. Yes, the filter sock is back on, just did not take that final pic. I don't think it gets much cleaner. I cut off everything, straightened the third tube that was holding the bracket. Put the return check valve on the shortened leg, slid some spare fuel line from a previous project over the straightened tube and pinched it in the vice 90 degrees out to secure it. Flatten the section next to the pump and hose clamped it. It cannot slide up or down as I left a bit of round pipe below preventing a downward migration. I abandoned and wiped off the JB Weld bead work. I really only need the clamps at this point to hold the pressure, it can't push out of the hose at all. It is nice and straight and drops right in.

I think I am good to go. it is interesting to think about the vibrations and rigid mount. It is a fine line there, generally in a vibratory environment it is not good to have rigid things as they do indeed vibrate, work harden, and eventually crack off (Subaru oil pickups are known for that (I know you have the VW). Having something with flex so it can dampen out the vibration is usually a good idea. The other way it to go super rigid like securing it on both ends, as anything sticking out unsupported with vibrate at some point. I sincerely hope that we have a knew topic topic the next time something needs worked on.

J R Jones

06-10-2021, 05:58 PM

Frank818

06-10-2021, 06:46 PM

149291 149292 149294149293

I like this much better. Yes, the filter sock is back on, just did not take that final pic. I don't think it gets much cleaner. I cut off everything, straightened the third tube that was holding the bracket. Put the return check valve on the shortened leg, slid some spare fuel line from a previous project over the straightened tube and pinched it in the vice 90 degrees out to secure it. Flatten the section next to the pump and hose clamped it. It cannot slide up or down as I left a bit of round pipe below preventing a downward migration. I abandoned and wiped off the JB Weld bead work. I really only need the clamps at this point to hold the pressure, it can't push out of the hose at all. It is nice and straight and drops right in.

You did there an excellent job, much cleaner than mine. lolll
Yes if the hose cannot pop up, down and sideways, you're in business! The way it was when you took it out, hanging just by the hose, I would have bet a lot it would have failed at some point.
I guess now you can even slide it in the tank straight, instead of at an angle, that's awesome.
One day you could add a second clamp higher on the pump, as a fail-safe to make sure the pump will never tilt. But not sure how important that would be at this level now, especially with the below down here I just quoted:

I think I am good to go. it is interesting to think about the vibrations and rigid mount. It is a fine line there, generally in a vibratory environment it is not good to have rigid things as they do indeed vibrate, work harden, and eventually crack off (Subaru oil pickups are known for that (I know you have the VW). Having something with flex so it can dampen out the vibration is usually a good idea. The other way it to go super rigid like securing it on both ends, as anything sticking out unsupported with vibrate at some point. I sincerely hope that we have a knew topic topic the next time something needs worked on.

You got a point there. It's attached only by the top end of the fuel pick-up assembly so it could take some vibrations and probably will. Would fuel act as a damper? Don't know...
On the other hand the risk of it popping out by being too flexy is very high. Compromise is a must here, I believe.

The only valid solution is a complete new tank configuration, as you already mentioned. I was 1 fail away of changing mine, but now over 2000km and still pushing all its pressure. If it does fail for whatever reason, I will totally reconfigure the tank solution with a new design (Boyd, etc.). It's costly and most of all, very costly in terms of time.

In the meantime, let's hear about your day at the track after you come back this Saturday. :)

jforand

06-10-2021, 06:57 PM

J, Good luck with this support. My MR2 tank is full of vents and tubes, all dedicated to something. I assume your designated support tube had no other function.
I predict a bit of pump whine will be heard, not an issue for a "R". I made my street car pump attachment rubber isolated.
I am surprised that the outside tube connections do not have hose bib rings either. It would be a disaster for your separation incident to move downstream. Visualizing a cause, my well pump experience came to mind. There was an unregulated pressure surge that blew-off the ground level slip connection. The plumbing snagged and hung-up unattached, at risk of dropping to the bottom of the 276ft well.
If this is a Subaru part, it obviously works for them.

You might be correct on the whine, but honestly hearing things in the track car is reassuring. Specifically I put a differential oil cooler on the Mustang and it is wired straight to the battery. That thing would SO get left 'ON' if I could not hear it both inside and outside the car. This is obviously not the case with the fuel pump, but it is a quick audio diagnostic.

The outside plumbing is indeed a Subaru part and works with o-ring snap connectors that clip onto the rib in the tube, no hose clamps necessary. I will say they are a 'lose' fit, wobble, and rotate very easily but I have never seen the slightest inkling of a leak. The o-ring is magic when done correctly.

Well Pumps....they don't have an emoji and I don't know how to spell it, but I am cringing and shaking all at once. The brother in law and I decided we would replace a 400' deep well pump by ourselves with no special equipment. That pretty much was horrible! The first 50 feet was bad enough lifting the pump, 400' of pipe (filled with water) and that pipe was clean and dry as the static water level was 50' down. We then came to the muddy, slick, and wet pipe that had not lightened up all that much for the remaining 350 feet. No stopping, no taking a break, heave until it is out. The plumbing was HDPE and fairly stiff meaning there were huge loops all across the yard and trees as it came out. I am not sure ours would have fallen. There was a safety cable on the pump as well so if that and the plumbing went it would have all gone down the remaining 40ish feet to rest on the bottom.

J R Jones

06-10-2021, 07:18 PM

J, I have been into our well twice, both times with a professional. The previous owner of this house let the woods grow around and up to the house. The well is up a story from the driveway and around to the back of the attached garage. The well guy announced that he could use his tripod but it would cost more to winch up the pipe & pump to replace the check valve (at the pump). I got out the chain saw and cleared a path for his truck, and have not let the trees grow back, I have plenty. The second time it was the blow-off which required jacking but not removal.
Yeah, I have seen the fittings you described on later model Toyota cars.

jforand

06-11-2021, 02:59 PM

Frank, I was about to PM you. I missed your response and was sure you would provide one so I was surprised.

"Fuel acting as a vibration dampener". I believe it likely will help with the higher frequency range for sure; however, it also provides for an infinite number of lateral hits as fuel sloshes the entire width of the car on every turn. The more full you keep the tank the better all of that will be.

Reasons I hate the tank:

1) Large width and I would like more leg room, though I also like the seat reclined so I might not really get much in leg room with a Boyd type solution.
2) The non-linear aspect of the volume as you come down top to bottom (hat box design)
3) The filler neck is permanently submerged
4) The level sensor is permanently submerged provided you are at a 1/2 tank or more (and the seal stinks, went the o-ring route).
5) Level sensor being on the mid height step means that the sensor indicates 'FULL' way before the level is near the top of the tank.

Because of all of the above I plan to attempt to keep the fuel level below the level sensor (step at mid height)

Alright, gonna trailer the beast and head to Road Atlanta. I'll give some feedback when I can.

Frank818

06-12-2021, 12:09 PM

Joe, Jim, James, John, Jack, Jacob, Joshua, Jamie, Joseph, Jeremiah, Justin, Joel, etc. lolll sorry I couldn't find your name,

I can hear your engine revving! So I guess the fuel pump is working. :D

I came across some interesting stuff while watching this pure American rebuild:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmEuHGKJu3E

Unless you wanna watch the whole thing, which is pretty interesting, you can jump directly to 2h04m01s. They have a "container" within which the pump assembly slides and they claim it always provides fuel, which would fix another issue of the FFR tank, fuel starvation on high Gs when not enough fuel in the tank. It also always prevents fuel from sloshing on the assembly since it's protected.

Then skip to 2h06m06s. That is the very interesting stuff I found out. They fit the assembly directly in the tank (cuz it has a bunch of baffles so no need for that above container) but look at how it is assembled. Hose is totally straight and the pump is clamped on the hanger which is a perfectly solid installation. That pump will not move in any direction and they slide it in the tank without anchoring it anywhere else than the top of the tank, just like us.

That got me thinking maybe the risk of vibrations cracking our solidified hanger is really not that great after all.... or I am totally missing something?

To top off your above downsides of the hot rod tank, I would add:
6) Fuel starvation on high Gs when not enough fuel in the tank
7) Fuel vent too small when filling up at gas station, it triggers the pump stop way too early (I have drilled the hole for a bigger vent, which caused me other probs but that's on me)
8) Top hole for sliding the pump too small to allow in tank maintenance (when something fell in it like happened to me!), too small to fit hand and too small to allow easy implementation of a completely different fuel pump assembly
9) No drain for easy complete drainage without removing tank (yes you can run the pump through a hose routed into a fuel container but it's not very convenient and I question whether or not it can drain all the fuel or some left behind)

So how was your track day? :)

jforand

06-12-2021, 09:35 PM

I’ll have to watch the video later.

Track day……ah man, gotta say not well unfortunately.

I made it exactly 2.5 laps and well, basically caught on FIRE!

It was running well I thought, felt pretty good and instead of poking around I was comfortably winding up a bit and started taking point bys. On the start of lap 3 a guy crashed on turn 1 and I passed through the yellow and started winding it up again. At the far back of the track they threw the Red Flag so everyone had to stop on track. That is when I notice quite a bit of smoke. It seemed to come and go a bit, but maybe that was the wind. Anyway, pulled off track and got out and there was a small fire on the front exhaust manifold. A decent amount of oil leaking out from under the timing cover. Put that on a hot manifold and you get fire.

Just got the engine pulled and on the stand tonight. Will be putting it to TDC and pulling the belt and all the sprockets to get a good look at the 4 cam seals and the oil pump front seal. Can’t tell where it is coming from right now as the timing belt slung it everywhere.

I took a couple point bys on the back straight and actually had thoughts the car was more of a dog than I really thought it should be. Was wondering if things just felt faster in a parking lot….well, in taking the exhaust manifold off I noted the bolts had loosened, actually two were gone. One gasket was also half gone……weird as hell. So on to the disassembly. Getting things out of the way. I stuck my finger in the turbo and spun it and it made noise and would only spin in one direction. Figured the cheap core I had bought was a mistake. Pulled the exhaust shell off and found all the missing pieces on the exhaust gasket. I do think the turbo actually might have survived this. I think this was the lack of power I was noticing.

Needless to say I will be missing the second day.

I have some pics, but am too tired to get it all together. I’ll dig more tomorrow and post the findings.

New speed record so far at 108.9mph, up from the parking lot 70:). Handling seemed ok in the turns and going down the straight. When I tried weaving down the straight at higher speed it confirmed I am going to want a quicker steering rack in the near future. Just too sluggish for my taste. I also think recovery with counter steer will be very challenging with as much steering wheel rotation is required to really move the wheels.

Hobby Racer

06-13-2021, 08:11 AM

Oh man, I feel your pain. Do you think you will still be able to make it to VIR at the end of the month?

jforand

06-13-2021, 09:31 AM

Hobby, I know you do. I just figured I wanted the extra challenge of a inside the two week time table:)

I think the answer to your question is yes, I’ll be there it just might be a Mustang instead of the 818.

Hopefully I will find the leak today and it isn’t the something horrible. I really hope I don’t have to pull valve covers and heads and such.

Can’t wait to burn all the residue off this one!!! Figure that will be another hour of wondering if I am on fire again.

jforand

06-13-2021, 02:49 PM

So I found this little guy hanging out on one of the casting ribs on the block to the left of the oil pump.

149476149477

Thought it very odd. If you scrutinize it you will see it is the inner lip of a double lip seal. You can see the groove that holds the garter spring. All seals (cams and oil pump) looked good from the outside. The oil pump was a little wet and the left side of the block from the front view was the most wet, which is the direction the timing belt would take the oil first. Based on this I decided to pull the pump.

149480149481

I found the little guy’s home!

I do not believe there is any other explanation, but I seriously damaged the seal installing the pump. I did this pump install in the car and had the seal installed in the pump before fitting the pump. It must have torn and fallen out prior to seating the housing to the block as the fragment was outside the housing. Had I deranged (flipped/twisted) the seal and it tore under usage the fragment would be inside the housing or engine somewhere. Lesson learned on working tired, late, fast, and in crapped low visibility areas.

I will source a new seal and exhaust manifold gaskets from Subaru tomorrow.

So the other issue I found in the tear down was the turbo. The exhaust manifold loosened up and ingested (versus expelled) 2/3 of a multilayer steel gasket. It shot it all the way up into the turbo snail shell. It was compacted in there quite badly and only the tiniest little bit was contacting the impeller. Got it all out and the thing spins perfectly smooth. I guess with impeller inertia when you come out of the throttle it probably can/does pull a negative in the exhaust manifold. Never really put thought into that before.

149482149483149484149485

I do believe I dodged a couple bullets on this outing.

Frank818

06-13-2021, 06:43 PM

Holly crap! Those are real bad lucks as I used to have. :(

You got lucky no major damages as it seems. When is the rebuild targeted?

jforand

06-13-2021, 07:05 PM

Rebuild will hopefully be by Tuesday this week. I have it all pretty much prepared. Just need the oil pump seal and some exhaust gaskets for parts and some time on task. Hoping the local Subaru dealership has them in stock.

After going through it in detail I am grateful for the guy who sacrificed his car in turn one to cause the red flag. The car was not as hot as it was going to be getting and I think in another lap or two the issue and the fire would have been much much worse.

Rob T

06-14-2021, 05:53 AM

Sorry for the problems, but glad you found some root cause issues that you can fix!

STiPWRD

06-14-2021, 09:00 AM

Oh man, good luck with the repairs! Check out the 2015 Impreza steering rack, I've heard those are the quickest. Should be a direct swap. Otherwise, I'm not sure if there are any aftermarket options.

Sgt.Gator

06-15-2021, 12:19 AM

Well if bad things come in 3s you got them all taken care of!

I'm guessing the pump oil seal folded when you installed the pump. The Subaru manual has a specific warning about that.
CAUTION:
• Make sure the oil seal lip is not folded.

You are very lucky if the turbo runs ok, it doesn't take much to throw them off balance. See my latest posting!

I'm not sure why you are having steering wheel issues, something doesn't sound right. My car turns in on a dime, I have no feeling of needing a quicker ratio. I would go thru your front end alignment before you buy a new steering rack.
Do you have your front sway connected? If so, try disconnecting one side and see how it feels on track. I disconnected mine and it felt great. After a few sessions I removed it entirely. I think almost all of the R builders have removed their front sway bars.

roadrashrob

06-15-2021, 07:12 AM

I do not believe there is any other explanation, but I seriously damaged the seal installing the pump. I did this pump install in the car and had the seal installed in the pump before fitting the pump. It must have torn and fallen out prior to seating the housing to the block as the fragment was outside the housing. Had I deranged (flipped/twisted) the seal and it tore under usage the fragment would be inside the housing or engine somewhere. Lesson learned on working tired, late, fast, and in crapped low visibility areas.

I feel your pain. I just pulled our engine for the same issue with the seal in the oil pump. I also put the seal in the pump first, then installed the pump. After just a little bit of running, the seal was definitely visibly damaged when I pulled the engine out. Popped the seal out with the oil pump still installed and very carefully installed a new seal. Think we finally solved the real source of our leak. Good luck!

jforand

06-15-2021, 09:07 AM

I feel your pain. I just pulled our engine for the same issue with the seal in the oil pump. I also put the seal in the pump first, then installed the pump. After just a little bit of running, the seal was definitely visibly damaged when I pulled the engine out. Popped the seal out with the oil pump still installed and very carefully installed a new seal. Think we finally solved the real source of our leak. Good luck!

RoadRASHRob, Do you happen to have a pic of the damage you suffered on the seal?

Just got the new seal from Subaru this morning. The pump should be installed this evening and hopefully get the engine at least back in the car. There is definitely a smoking gun here which is nice, just wish the confidence/trust factor in the motor would not have taken the hit that it did. The thing that baffles me is how damaged the seal actually was. I tore out a huge chunk and that honestly really surprises me. The seals are pretty tough, you can scar them and tear them, but to tear an entire chunk out accidentally before the pump housing ever seals tot he block is bizarre to me. If I were to hand someone the old seal and say tear me out a similar chunk, my bet would be needle nose pliers would be necessary.

The other thing is that I had about 5ish hours of runtime on the engine prior to hitting the track. It was neighborhood driving and I have a large parking lot that I have trailered up to several times and spent a lot of time running it up in the rpm range. I would have thought that there would have been at least a drop of oil on the garage floor and there is absolutely nothing. Perhaps it was cooking off the manifold before making it to the ground and the track overwhelmed it.....

We shall see.

J R Jones

06-15-2021, 09:20 AM

j, I find your complaint on steering qurious. Of all track circumstances, I would put the least significance on steering quickness at high speed. Too much response at high speed can trigger instability.
I see Sgt's comment on anti-sway bar, and that would not occur to me in this circumstance. I see preference on this forum (818 & Cobras) for high castor settings. I have never gone there, but the reason is self-centering and stability at higher speed. I would pull back the castor to 2.5 - 4.5 before I bought any hardware. No front anti-roll bar would lead to more body roll, that is OK at lower speed, but I would not like that at high speed.

jforand

06-15-2021, 10:03 AM

I believe I have made peace with this seal issue. It was really bothering me how I screwed this up this badly. So here is a pic

149527

The seal was damaged on the bottom dead center and while the engine is TDC the key is on the bottom. When installing the pump (seal already in it) I must have hooked it on the key. It snagged it, pulled it up into the acute angle, and scissored it off just like a sheet metal nibbler. This would have all happen when the pump housing was still 1-2 inches from landing on the block allowing the piece of seal to fall outside and land on the block web.

It is pretty crystal clear to me now how it happened. I feel a LOT better now. Time to get cracking.

jforand

06-15-2021, 10:30 AM

In response to the steering comments from Sgt. Gator and J R I agree with pretty much everything each of you said.

I don't have a sway bar installed yet. The guy had the wrong one from the donor. I think you take the rear to the front and I think he saved the front. In any case, what I have, which I stripped and powder coated does not fit. I have not gotten around to fabricating one. Mitch Wright went through a fabrication process and made I think three of them (different spring rates) before he was happy. I have heard a lot of people running without them, which is why I have not spent time there yet.

The issue is not bad steering, it is too much steering wheel input for the realized result based on my liking. The car turns fine and feels dead steady in the turns, I just have to to turn the wheel too much for my liking. This is a learned thing and what you develop reflexes for. The car slides and a quick counter flip to catch it and center....no harm no foul. My instinctual counter flip is not going to be enough input to catch the car. I am going to have to retrain the brain. I will have to play more since I caught on fire in my first three track laps, but I suspected I was not going to be totally happy with the rate even playing in the parking lot. The other reason I don't like a lot of steering wheel input is your elbows start moving a lot more than they would otherwise. I struggled with my left elbow hitting the edge of the seat and left cockpit bars. Because of this I had to raise my column mount (to a bit uncomfortably high position) to ensure I would not encounter interference in a critical moment. There just isn't a lot of room in the car and keeping things compact and more efficient would help.

Personally, I like to keep my hands at 9/3 o'clock and not really move them. This always allows me to know exactly where 'wheels straight' is without the need to look at the center tape mark on the wheel or wait to feel what the car is telling me. If you get into 'hand over hand' on the wheel then you lose 'center' and you can't confidently get back there in as short of order as just whipping back to 3/9 o'clock. So in order to make this work I really want pretty much all the turn to be able to be accomplished within a 180 degree flip of the wheel. Past that you have to let go and start the hand over hand process.

My Mustang is this way. If I have to hand over hand something isn't going well. Same with the F1 guys (or anyone with a non continuous steering wheel. They are at 3/9 and pretty much get everything done within a +/- 180 degree flip of the wheel.

Sgt.Gator

06-15-2021, 10:52 AM

Glad you figured it out. The FSM doesn't say to remove the woodruff key before removing the pump, nor does it say to re-install the key after you put the pump back on, but that is the process.
And yes, you put the seal on the pump before you install the pump on the block.
This video goes thru the procedure.

https://youtu.be/cvcfaTHa5WM

J R Jones: Do a search on front sway bar on the 818. Almost everyone who races/tracks the car has removed them. Doing so does not cause high speed body roll or instability.

roadrashrob

06-15-2021, 12:00 PM

RoadRASHRob, Do you happen to have a pic of the damage you suffered on the seal?

Best picture I have. 149530

I can email you the original in higher res

jforand

06-15-2021, 12:56 PM

Thanks Sgt. You don't have to remove the key as it is on the smaller diameter portion of the shaft. The seal rides on the next step up and can easily clear the key if you are paying attention. If you have the pump too high when sliding it on (not centered or lower) the lower lip will catch the key. I suspect taking the key out is a smart thing to do to prevent issues and also to make sure it does not fall out and you lose it. Sometimes the edges of the key recess can be not so smooth. I am going to leave mine in. Now that I am comfortable with the issue I firmly believe you can do the seal in the pump first or drive it home after seating the housing as you do with the cam shaft seals.

Roadrashrob,

Whoa, that is some heavy damage and it is on the outside. Do you have an explanation for that? I can't think of a way for that to happen except external harm from a screw driver or something. I don't think you had my issue with the key or damage from rotation. I really would be puzzled on that one. I hope your new seal gets you back to good. Though I can't think of the cause I do believe you have a 'smoking gun' there.

roadrashrob

06-15-2021, 02:07 PM

Only thing I'm thinking is "something" happened during installation, but agree it is puzzling. I'm just hoping when it goes back in is stays in good condition and the leak is resolved.

J R Jones

06-15-2021, 03:33 PM

j, Disclaimer: I have not driven my 818 yet so the veterans here have the advantage of experience over my theory, and generic experience. I do have an MR2 turbo with upgraded power and suspension (springs and A/R bars) and based on that I can say, mid-engine cars have unique handling. You will not make it handle like your Mustang.

My 818 with a 2002 Impreza power rack (no power) is three turns lock to lock, which is about the same as my MR2. The later MR2 Spider is 2.75.
My 818 (front) A/R bar is designed to fit the rear I assume, it has very odd bends. The diameter is 0.8 in and the arms are 7.25 long. Not a big bar, I can flex it by hand.
Chassis roll and therefore A/R bar contribution is a response to steering. It can affect understeer and oversteer (slide) but not steering acuity.
Note:
Tire Rack alignment page www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=4&
"Toe can also be used to alter a vehicle's handling traits. Increased toe-in will typically result in reduced oversteer, help steady the car and enhance high-speed stability. Increased toe-out will typically result in reduced understeer, helping free up the car, especially during initial turn-in while entering a corner."

Zero or slight toe-out can make the steering more responsive.
If your bump steer is excessive, it could affect steering acuity. IE as you steer, and the body rolls, one side might have accurate turn angle and one side may not. I recently saw 818 tie rods spaced up from the steering arm, suggesting a modification for bump steer.

My comment on mid-engine instability goes to an emergency scenario or a tight chicane. The instability is referred to as snap oversteer.
Imagine you are at speed, following close and something falls off the car ahead, you swing hard left. As the tires yaw left, the body rolls right and ~100 lb of balanced load shifts from left to right.
The track is narrow (or the next turn close) and you snap right. The tires yaw right, the body rolls left and ~200 lb of load shifts from right to left until you stabilize with no steering input.
These numbers may be excessive, the 818 has a low center of gravity, but you may see my point, your steering has to control all the dynamics. Failing that, oversteer is the result.
The theory is that A/R bars reduce the transfer of sprung weight laterally.

jforand

06-15-2021, 07:48 PM

I follow you J R and agree with everything. Again, this is not something I would refer to as a handling issue (proper). If I did call it handling above the better phrase would have been steering speed/ratio preference. I am going to equate my track time with the 818 (3 laps) to parking lot driving thus far. I have not gotten it up to speed and have not come close to experiencing any 'freeing up' be it the front, rear, or both. I have not gotten anywhere near the point of chassis setup and fine tuning yet. The best I have done is one power induced rear slide exiting a corner. Rolling into the throttle as you unwind the steering input and you find the back freeing up and some negative steer is required to catch it while staying in the throttle. I have only done this once in a parking lot and it was balanced and controlled, but I did flip the steering wheel almost 180 to the right to catch the slide. I would rather it be a lot less. The back end as noted by the rubber tracks did not step that far out at all (no where near say Tokyo Drift, inattentive fans would probably have missed it):D

The rack I have is 15:1 and very close to 3 turns lock to lock. The 15 and up is a 13:1 and close to 2.5 turns lock to lock. Honestly, I think I would like one closer to 2 turns (a full 360 each way). This is all personal preference, my only concern would be the increased steering effort. This is all going to have to wait as I have bigger fish to fry.

Got the pump and seal on and am confident it went well. Trying to tidy up the front of the motor and am noticing all the tiny rubber cooling lines which all seem to have insane factory 90s in them are basically kinking. I think I need to source some new stuff. I also have the timing belt on but have not fully torqued the sprockets, tight but not torqued. I made a tool for the AVCS (intake) ones and for the life of me can't remember how I torqued the exhaust ones last time without the Special Tool. I broke down tonight and ordered one. So I guess I am back to sheet metal work tomorrow (and maybe the next day) until it arrives.

https://www.rallysportdirect.com/part/tools/cop-500-company23-std-intake-exhaust-cam-sprocket-tool

Bob_n_Cincy

06-15-2021, 11:09 PM

Here is the steering wheel movement with a stock rack. Thas is with stiffer springs which improved steering response by reducing body roll.

https://youtu.be/iTFypZcsFU4

jforand

06-16-2021, 09:14 AM

Here is the steering wheel movement with a stock rack. Thas is with stiffer springs which improved steering response by reducing body roll.

https://youtu.be/iTFypZcsFU4

Thanks for the video

I would say that your video seems better than what I am experiencing. I only saw you approach 90 deg of rotation once. I would also say that it did not appear you had the back of the car doing any significant rotation, which would reduce the required steering input (based on the guy holding you up). My evaluation of my condition has really nothing to do with any dynamic situation (chassis roll, understeer, oversteer, sliding, weight transfer, etc). The evaluation could take pace at 5 mph. Alignment can play into this, but I am pretty standard in my opinion, though it was done with string and not the best angle finders. At some point I would like to get real numbers.

Front toe in of 1/8" total measured at the rim edge
Rear toe in of 1/8" total measured at the rim edge
Camber is roughly negative 2 on all four corners
Caster is 6 degrees both sides

Bump steer has not been measured at this point. Again, this is not a dynamic situation so it really does not play into this specific discussion, but I have spaced down the tie rod ends to more closely align with the LCA pivot geometry probably 2-2.5" at this time. Room for adjustment when I get into it.

Mitch Wright

06-16-2021, 09:57 AM

Sgt.Gator

06-16-2021, 11:03 AM

If you really want a faster rack one solution is the PRS Rack, 2.2 turns lock to lock. Pretty expensive to take a new rack and depower it.
https://www.facebook.com/PRSqstr/

jforand

06-18-2021, 11:22 AM

If you really want a faster rack one solution is the PRS Rack, 2.2 turns lock to lock. Pretty expensive to take a new rack and depower it.
https://www.facebook.com/PRSqstr/

Yikes, those are a bit pricey. I'll be keeping my eye out in the foreseeable future. There is still a remote possibility that if I don't come to terms with the ergonomics well enough that I could slide the seat to the center position and push the pedals further forward. That would solve a lot of issues including getting my head further down as it would allow me to recline the seat a bit more. This would then necessitate a steering rack with a center input, so I am in trolling mode here unless something stupid cheap comes across my path.

DSR-3

06-18-2021, 01:16 PM

For a center-steer rack, check out 80's Porsche parts.

jforand

06-19-2021, 07:59 AM

For a center-steer rack, check out 80's Porsche parts.

I’ll keep that in mind. I had been struggling to find something both suitable and reasonable when I was making the initial decision. Thank you.

Sgt.Gator

06-19-2021, 10:18 AM

You may not be aware, but we have an 818R racing in the NW and at the Thunderhill 25 hour that is a center steer. Dragonfly Motorsports. Leo doesn't participate on this forum but they are on Facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/dragonflyfast

Here's a few pics I've taken of their car at The Ridge and PIR.
149686149687149688149689149690

jforand

06-19-2021, 02:18 PM

That is super cool. I had seen a green one before, it must be those guys. Very pretty and looks to be top notch.

Hobby Racer

06-19-2021, 06:33 PM

I believe biknman's 818R is also center drive and he will be at VIR with us so you can see one in person. I'm also curious about the rack he used.

jforand

06-21-2021, 08:18 AM

I got the car running again. Going to try to get some confidence in it this week before departing Sunday for VIR.

I have been chasing a few coolant leaks. I am finding that the OEM hose clamps (circa 2004-2006) have weakened and are not holding back the pressure as the car warms up. I have swapped out about 3-4 of them thus far. One other small issue I noticed at Road Atlanta was some leakage out of the coolant cap on the pressure tank on top of the engine. I could hear it hissing, but nothing at the front cap and no change in the overflow tank level. I went with two new caps and put a 20lb cap on the tank in the rear and the more standard 16lb cap on the radiator. I want the pressure (and overflow) to vent out the front into the overflow tank. If I would have seen a straight up cap for the rear I might have gone that route. I think this should be fine though.

I still do have a bit of a 'wet spot' on the very front center lip of the exhaust manifold heat shield. I am pretty certain that it is coolant and not oil. The only source I can see making sense is the coolant tube that connects between the water pump and the OEM engine oil cooler. The hose always looks dry, but I see no other way for coolant to get there. In looking at the manifold it appears to have historic staining under those hose connections so I am going after replacing those clamps today as well. Will need to drop the manifold again to get at them.

149730149729

Ajzride

06-21-2021, 01:50 PM

I used the gates power clamps on mine and those things are rock solid, never leak. They are pricey though especially since they are not reusable.

Hobby Racer

06-21-2021, 02:34 PM

I used the gates power clamps on mine and those things are rock solid, never leak. They are pricey though especially since they are not reusable.

+1 on the Gates Power Grip. I use them everywhere I can, even on the pressure side of the supercharger system. They are one time use but they are fantastic!

Ajzride

06-21-2021, 04:22 PM

You can get decent prices if you buy them in 10 packs from RockAuto

jforand

06-21-2021, 08:15 PM

I don’t think I had ever seen those Gates Power Grip Clamps before. They look pretty interesting. Some of the stuff under the engine I played with today would be hard to get the heat gun all the way around it. Also, I took the opportunity with the worm drive clamps I had to not break open the plumbing and dump the coolant.

While I was in there doing the clamps today I decided to pull the timing belt cover and take a look at things. There was a decent spray of oil in the cover again, but no real source or pooling. I think (and am hoping) that this is residual oil that I could not get totally cleaned up. Specifically the timing belt was a tough one. I did not want to use any chemicals on it so the best I could do was to squeeze some clean rags around it to blot it off. While the manifold was off I also took the opportunity to hit it with the blow torch to burn off everything. It took a good 10 minutes before I could not generate any more smoke.

So, we’ll see if I got it or not.

jforand

06-22-2021, 07:48 AM

I found the car very sensitive to bumpsteer, before I bumpsteered the car it was a bit spooky, once it was done it changed the personality of the car completely.
Here is my baseline set up:
Front
0 total toe
+6* caster
-2.6 camber
3.5" ride height
Bump steer (from memory) from static ride height 1" drupe 2" compression .010 max change.
350lb front springs
Dampeners set on middle setting

Rear:
-3* camber
.1875 total toe in
3.75 rear ride height
Bump steer from static ride height 1" drupe 2" compression .015 max change.
500lb rear springs
dampeners on middle setting.

Tires BFG R1S
I also used a .750 .095 wall adjustable front sway bar.

Hey Mitch, thanks for typing this up. I missed it the first go around, not sure why.

The biggest differences with the numbers we have is the camber. I am pretty much -2 everywhere, except I think the trim I did got the passenger front to -2.5. I also am running 1/8" toe in front and rear. It is very interesting with the body off the tire look deranged. When you can see everything they just look extreme. I have setup the strings about three separate times just to check and it seems to agree with the numbers.

You have swapped the springs from what I did. I have the 500s in the front and the 350s in the rear. I went back and re-read the supplemental and FFR indicates that if you are not running a rear wing that they recommend swapping the springs and putting the 500s up front. Currently, I have no body and no aero. I wrapped zip ties around the shock shafts to check movement. While I am nowhere up to the speeds the tuned car should be capable of I have see just about 1 inch in max deflection in the front and maybe 1.25-1.5 in the rear (this is about half the travel to the bump stop with the ride height ~4.5"). To me this seems good for now, soft and compliant without over compression and bottoming out. This of course might change when the forces go up more and I have a suspicion that the rear is going to need a little more. I almost want to crank on the spring a little, but that does not get it done. It will raise ride height and do nothing for the spring preload until I hit max extension and that is NOT want I want to do.

I need to look at bump steer. took a whack at spacing down the tie rods int he front, but have not check the result. I am not quite sure how to adjust for bump steer in the rear....

If you still have those sway bars I might be interested in them if you wanted to bring them to VIR, though I highly suspect that let them go with the car.

Frank818

06-22-2021, 07:42 PM

They are one time use but they are fantastic!

So they basically last a week cuz we tear our cars apart once a week for all kinds of reasons. lollll

Sgt.Gator

06-23-2021, 10:35 AM

I am not quite sure how to adjust for bump steer in the rear....

The upper trailing arm controls the rear bump steer along with the lateral links. See this thread I just bumped up:
Rear Suspension set up pointers
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?15132-Rear-Suspension-set-up-pointers

jforand

06-23-2021, 09:21 PM

Thanks Gator. I will have to study this one a bit. Currently in a hotel room and it is a bit hard to understand not looking at the car. In addition, I do not have any OEM links so everything is adjustable making ‘lateral link’ and ‘toe link’ somewhat ambiguous as I can adjust toe with either the front or rear lateral links.

Appreciate you directing me here.

jforand

06-24-2021, 04:04 PM

I have read through Wayne's procedure and find it to be pretty solid. I did get a bit wrapped around the axle on a couple terms, but I think he is right on. My biggest issue was with the word "parallel". I was struggling to determine if we were trying to get the links themselves or the pivot axes parallel. In the end I don't think that either of those truly HAVE to be parallel to have zero toe change during suspension travel. I believe we are considering the links to be parallel in his rear picture of the suspension, which from the visual projection is accurate, but the links themselves don't need to be truly parallel, but co-planar. The easiest way to see this is by mentally spreading the chassis side pivots away from each other to introduce a triangulation to fight fore/aft movement of the wheel centerline under acceleration or braking. If you separated them enough you greatly reduce the loading in the trailing arms. The 818 does have them mostly parallel, but it also depends on the knuckles used (WRX or STI or whatever) as well as the spacers and such.

I came up with the following thought/analogy in thinking through it. Maybe it helps someone visualize how rear bump/roll steer manifests.

I envision lower lateral links like the hands of a clock here. They both pivot from the same point (on the same axis in the car), but the hour and minute hands are different lengths. If the clock hands are parallel (colinear and pointing to the same number) then they are both swinging in the exact same portion of the arc. So if perfectly horizontal (pointing at 3 or 9 o'clock) the movement at the tips (short or long hand) has essentially zero left/right translation. It is essentially pure vertical motion. If they are perfectly vertical (pointing at (12 or 6 o'clock) any movement has essentially all left/right motion and no vertical translation. Somewhere in the middle (1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10 ,11 o'clock) and there is a horizontal and vertical translation component. The key is to make sure they are doing the same thing as differing horizontal components would change toe. The only way I see this not happening is if you keep the clock hands co-linear, you could also say parallel for the clock, but on the car they are separated by some distance and could still have a triangulation component that would equate to going into or out of the clock face, which is ok as long as they still both point to the same number.

I think the key is measuring the angle between the inner and outer pivot axes and making those the same, which is what Wayne is spelling out. If the angles are the same the plane defined by the laterals is true. If the angles are different then that plane is 'twisted' from being truly planular and you have misaligned clock hands and because they are in different portions of the arc they will have differing horizontal and vertical components altering toe during travel.

It always helps me to talk or write through something to get a complete grasp. Hopefully the analogy helps someone.

jforand

06-24-2021, 05:44 PM

SLOW STEERING

For all those that were in the slow steering discussion I had an epiphany of sorts that I wanted to check out. My rack is exactly 3 turns lock to lock. Crucially the lock is the extent of the rack versus the wheel hitting a stop with more rack to go. So the rack is the limiting factor. As a side note, my 2019 Honda Civic is exactly 2 turns lock to lock and I like that way better.

So I was wondering why there was not much agreement with me, or maybe better said, why others were not thinking their steering was too slow. It occurred to me that:

1) nobody reads my stuff :D
2) that I have weird taste/preference
3) that most everybody's was different than mine

So knowing that 1 and 2 are ludicrous I wen looking at 3.

I am using STI hubs and I believe the majority of people are using WRX hubs. If the distance between the steering rotational axis of the knuckle to the tie rod attachment point is different it would greatly effect the steering. For instance, if mine was say 1/2" further out than the WRX, the WRX knuckles would result in more degrees of turn in the tires for the same steering wheel input.

So the question is:

What is the distance from the center of the tie rod bolt to the center of the lower ball joint. This of course needs to be measure square and perpendicular (the effective lever arm length). This is not the easiest measurement to get and be consistent with others. I measured from the middle of the lower ball joint pinch slot over to the center of the tie rod and tried to stay parallel to the line between the tie rod bolt and center of the ball joint.

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'04 STI hub is 5.07"

I guess one other visually easier thing would be looking directly across the car in line with the steering rack, both my tie rods are angled forward to their attachments versus being all in s straight line with the rack itself.

149854

Then again, most of you have bodies on the car!

Frank818

06-29-2021, 08:32 PM

J R Jones

06-29-2021, 09:21 PM

Justin, I mentioned previously that my 2002 Impreza is 3 turns LTL, and the steering arm length as you measure is 4.875 in.
This system has no external stops, it is all in the rack.
jim

jforand

06-30-2021, 09:24 PM

The longer the distance the slower?

My 03 non-WRX/non-STI came up at 4.5". Difficult to make a good measurement with body on, I need to lift the front correctly and re-measure but I am totally sure it won't go pass 5", maybe 4-3/4...

Yes, the longer the steering arm, the less wheel deflection (turn) you will get for the same lateral displacement in the steering rack. We are basically looking at arc length/stroke length. If you went all academic here for an example it would look like this:

Say a steering arm length of 1 inch. This is a radius, so the diameter of the circle the steering arm would make is 2 inches. If I started with this arm pointing directly at the rack and then steered the rack into the arm with a lateral displacement of 2”. The steering arm would rotate all the way over to the other side (180deg). 180 deg of steering on the tire, which of course is stupid, but the point is made. This exactly translated into wheel articulation. Hopefully that makes sense.

Now, if you lengthened the steering arm to say 5 inches (10” diameter arc) and you did the same 2 inch rack movement it does not have the ability to push the steering arm as far around the arc it makes with its pivot. It is far less than 180 as the opposite side is 10 inches away right? So far less steering angle then the above case with the same 2” rack displacement. This steering difference is all in the knuckles steering arm geometry.

I did a little math the other day and calculated what a 1/2” shorter arm might look like. I was a bit surprised as I only got about 1.5 deg more steering by shortening the arm 0.5”. I though it would be more than that. I don’t think I screwed up the math.

jforand

07-06-2021, 08:03 AM

The steering has taken a back seat to more pressing problems.

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I had a ton of fun up at VIR for the first day and a very short 4-5 laps on the second day before losing power, going up in smoke, and hearing the dreaded interference noises. It appears that I have joined the Ringland Failure Club! I was originally thinking that lost the turbo as I had oil pouring out of the intake air filter and that is the closest source of pressurized oil, but that all appears to be just fine. I am assuming that I over-pressurized the crank case and pushed a whole bunch of oil up through the PCV system and got tons of oil ingestion.

J R Jones

07-06-2021, 09:20 AM

jforand

07-06-2021, 11:15 AM

Justin, The undamaged cylinder looks good, suggesting it is relatively "fresh"? If so, your machine shop may be able to remove the aluminum smear with acid, do a dimension check and hone?
You could get lucky. I assume these were OEM pistons, and maybe Hobby's Ross pistons are called for. My son uses them on his supercharged Lexus V8.
I do not know the history of Subaru ring land failures, could this cylinder have run lean?
jim

Yes, the block was checked and measured and freshly honed. These are not stock Subi pistons, they are JE forged aluminum pistons. JE has a large market share in the performance piston arena. I am struggling to believe that the piston was at fault. Now that being said, these were used pistons and I have no idea how much abuse they took prior to being placed into my service. The idea of detonation repeatedly hitting the lands with shock waves much greater than the proper combustion process rings true to me. The micro flexure will work harden metal (especially aluminum) over time and there is certainly no shortage of reciprocations in an engine at 5-7K rpm.

There are some evils/shortcuts here that in hindsight I should have not let happen. One, I should have put the car on a dyno for a tune and known exactly what was going on in the engine and ECU prior to flogging it. I don't know if it is bone stock or a previous owner has a tune in it. Two, there was a lap or two where the car fuel starved in EVERY corner with the gauge reading 2/3 9not a fan of the 33 hot rod fuel tank). So did this lean things out several times causing issues??? Third, the shifting is sloppy and I missed 5th several times with a few of those ended up in 3rd, the good news is I don't let the clutch out very fast so in short order I know something is not right and the clutch is back in (a bit less than the notable 'money shift'). Fourth, I am not entirely certain that the piston to cylinder clearance is as tight as it should be. This could result in more piston slap which is going to go straight into the top ring land. I will be very keen on getting an expert Subaru opinion on this mater on the new build. Fifth, the air to air intercooler is top mounted on the engine and likely does not see much air at all. I am fairly certain intake air temps were very much higher than desired, which would contribute to detonation. There are likely a few others as well.

The block does appear to be mostly transfer of aluminum versus scoring. I think it might be salvageable, but I do think a bore and the next size up piston is a smart move. I am going to start a chat with Element Tuning on the Gulf Coast. I have heard good things about them. I need to get comfortable that this thing can be built bullet proof for the 300-400hp and straight up hard track life (4-5 events per season) or I am not sure I want to keep pouring money into it.

Sgt.Gator

07-07-2021, 12:50 AM

Again, I feel your pain!

"One, I should have put the car on a dyno for a tune and known exactly what was going on in the engine and ECU prior to flogging it. I don't know if it is bone stock or a previous owner has a tune in it."
100% Correct!

"Two, there was a lap or two where the car fuel starved in EVERY corner with the gauge reading 2/3 9not a fan of the 33 hot rod fuel tank). So did this lean things out several times causing issues???"
Yes, and is the likely cause of the failure. I know this because I've been there, done that, and it was only 2 laps. In my case a transfer pump that was supposed to move fuel from the driver side of the saddlebag oem tank to the passenger side fuel pump pickup was was installed 180 degrees off, it was pulling fuel away from the pickup! This was the result, cylinder 4 (It's always cyl 4)

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"Third, the shifting is sloppy and I missed 5th several times with a few of those ended up in 3rd, the good news is I don't let the clutch out very fast so in short order I know something is not right and the clutch is back in (a bit less than the notable 'money shift')."
Not the cause in this case

"Fourth, I am not entirely certain that the piston to cylinder clearance is as tight as it should be. This could result in more piston slap which is going to go straight into the top ring land. I will be very keen on getting an expert Subaru opinion on this mater on the new build."
Very unlikely this had anything to do with it.

"Fifth, the air to air intercooler is top mounted on the engine and likely does not see much air at all. I am fairly certain intake air temps were very much higher than desired, which would contribute to detonation."
Yes, and combined with super lean starvation coming out of corners and nailing the turbo it was certain death for your ringlands. You need some datalogging capability. A Cobb AP at the minimum. First we break in a new engine on the dyno and set the wastegate to spring pressure. Once it's tuned at that minimum boost we go to the track. I do 15 mins with the Cobb AP in data logging mode, pull CSV file and either hand it to him at the track or email it to him. He is on call for my track day and goes over the file before I go back out again. If it's ok I go out for another session. If not he will modify the base map, I load it up, we try again....rinse and repeat

The block does appear to be mostly transfer of aluminum versus scoring. I think it might be salvageable, but I do think a bore and the next size up piston is a smart move. I am going to start a chat with Element Tuning on the Gulf Coast. I have heard good things about them. I need to get comfortable that this thing can be built bullet proof for the 300-400hp and straight up hard track life (4-5 events per season) or I am not sure I want to keep pouring money into it.

In my case I threw the entire longblock in the aluminum recycle. You could send it to Outfront or IAG and ask them to salvage what they can. Phil at Element Tuning has been at it a long time and would probably be fine. However if you re-use this block and heads you should budget for a new turbo within a few sessions, there is probably melted aluminum that will make it way to the turbo bearing. One guess how I know this.
All this falls under my signature line: "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"

mikeb75

07-08-2021, 10:25 AM

Sorry to see the carnage! That's a real kick in the guts.

On to the next steps, IMO 300 - 400 HP is within the range of reliably achievable for an EJ engine, but you need to be smart about it. From what I've read, detonation and oiling issues are the 2 biggest failure modes for the EJ series. Detonation is probably the most "common", but with road racing applications oiling moves up the ladder of importance.

There is an issue I won't go into too much, 2 liter vs 2.5; this is mostly my opinion (and take that for what it's worth), the 2.5L engines are more compromised than the 2L ones. They were produced for the US market to address the lower octane fuels available here and to pump up the HP/torque numbers; but these engines are more square (over square) with regards to bore vs stroke - so there are more stresses from piston speed vs the 2L engines which equals lower redline (in most applications, can be addressed, but $$$$$). That's a whole other discussion, I think you're on the 2.5L track -this is much more common in the US, so there are a range of solutions available.

Back to the issue at hand, ringlands- especially in #4 and detonation go hand in hand. So reliable fueling and control of the IATs are of primary concern. Lunching a JE piston is evidence something "bad" was happening... trashing OEM pistons is much easier. So getting your fueling loop addressed is going to be a high concern (cough fuel tank), getting a handle on the tune (especially the transitions from open to closed loop fueling) are another - as is making sure your injectors are appropriately sized and working properly.

After that here are some additional things to think about for safety/headroom:

Is e85 available for you? From what I know, that gives quite a bit of safety per detonation resistance at the expense of needing additional tuning/injector size and losing some mileage (or, conversely, needing a bigger tank).
Making sure your intercooler is up to the task (I'm guilty of this also) - the A2A IC works fine in stock application - but it gets a major flow of air over it up front in a Suby... tucked behind in an 818... this has always been questionable which is why AWICs are so commonly run.
Water/Methanol injection - we're getting a bit exotic here, but it's a pretty well known technology at this point (with known failure modes also... sigh), where additional injection to the intake air charge can be used to reduce temperature and provide additional headroom. But this adds complication.

Just a few suggestions to start your thinking/the discussion.

jforand

07-08-2021, 11:20 AM

Thanks for the input Mike. I know everybody talks about Cylinder 4, but mine was #2. Seems weird.

I believe you are on point with pretty much everything you said.

I do want to stay as simple as possible while being bullet proof and I think that should be doable as well. The idea of going 2L, E85, and/or water/meth injection brings things to a level that I would like to avoid.

I definitely need a good tune. I definitely need to address the Intercooler (big air scoop or better placement -or- and AWIC which is not a cheap option). I will be going back with a dry sump solution. Definitely need a robust short/long block.

The part that is weighing on me here is that this is going to cost more than half of just buying a like C5 Corvette. What to do, what to do????

mikeb75

07-08-2021, 12:14 PM

...The part that is weighing on me here is that this is going to cost more than half of just buying a like C5 Corvette. What to do, what to do????

There are no easy answers... And not just saying that - I've been asking that exact same question for a few weeks now. But with the C5 answer: big car + big power = big consumable budget (at least that's where my heads at; plus I can't trailer it give my current setup; know you're better fixed for that... but it makes my choice easier).

But, based on what you just said above, staying with 2.5L - get that, your fueling and tuning fixed. Then consider the intake cooling issue.

I'm in the minority, but I don't think the dry sump is needed until running slicks. Pretty sure Mitch's got a sorted build that isn't using dry sump. Admittedly, it's a risk, but it's also a huge cost (but what's an engine cost is the correct answer).

Hobby Racer

07-08-2021, 12:30 PM

I'm in the minority, but I don't think the dry sump is needed until running slicks. Pretty sure Mitch's got a sorted build that isn't using dry sump. Admittedly, it's a risk, but it's also a huge cost (but what's an engine cost is the correct answer).

I've got one thing to say .... oil pump swing arm (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?23199-John-s-EZ36R-H6-818R-Build&p=425373&viewfull=1#post425373).

Inexpensive, one moving part. Install it and forget it ;)

Pair that with the Arctangent Oil Control Plate (https://arctangentdesign.com/) and I think you would have a bullet proof solution.

Let's call it $300 all in ... just saying.

mikeb75

07-08-2021, 12:56 PM

I've got one thing to say .... oil pump swing arm (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?23199-John-s-EZ36R-H6-818R-Build&p=425373&viewfull=1#post425373)
I'm a huge fan of that!

Just not sure it will work with the EJ2x oil pan -- it's deeper and more oddly shaped than what is found under the H6 engines. The pickup sits in the deepest part of the oil pan after a long goose-neck from the block.
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150542

With a whole bunch of fab work maybe the EJ oil pick-up can be as awesome as the one you built (need to take another look at lance's work)

Sgt.Gator

07-08-2021, 05:57 PM

There's Cheap, Fast, and Reliable. You are only allowed to pick 2 of the 3.

The C5 Z06 is the cost/performance bargain of all time. Soon to be followed by the C6 Z06. I had a 2009 C6 Z06, it was awesome. Keep in mind a 3200 lb track car will have a high cost for consumables. I'll never have a race/track car that weighs over 2500 lbs again. If that interests you I refer you to this thread on the Corvette forum.
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/autocrossing-and-roadracing/2407034-c5-track-car-hpde-conversion-what-i-have-learned.html

Ajzride

07-08-2021, 06:25 PM

Maybe you should think about an H-6.

jforand

07-09-2021, 09:47 PM

Yes, well aware of the downsides to a heavier car. Been tracking a 2016 Mustang GT since 2015. I bought the 818 because I wanted to drop weight and consumable prices. Not too long ago it was also my daily driver and going to track suspension and such was making the daily thing harder. I’m just really bummed by this. To re-up a nice engine seriously cranks up the operating cost of this car. As far as the dry sump, yes Mitch had one going well (he sold it). There are a few factors that really play in and a big one is the track you are running. How long are you sustaining the lateral Gs for? I was absolutely shocked to find that with the fuel tank reading 2/3rds full, which equate to a liquid level about half way up in the tank it would fuel starve in every single corner at VIR. You really have to expect the oil to be shifting in the same way. I do like the swinging pickup, but the 2.5 is different (well, at least the one I have. mike got the pic). To switch o the other style pan that might have a shot would require sourcing another exhaust manifold, up pipe, and then likely turbo as well as everything I have is dual pipes for the twin scroll VF38.

Got the pistons out tonight. One failure in #2 and it managed to throw metal into all other cylinders and make it to the oil pan as well. Crank mains still look good, have not removed the rods yet.

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I really like the lighter car idea as well. Found myself looking up used Radicals today…..

Hobby Racer

07-10-2021, 06:42 AM

I really like the lighter car idea as well. Found myself looking up used Radicals today…..

I've seriously thought about Radicals as well, but they have a high maintenance cost as well with engine refreshes measured in hours. I want a car were the engine rebuild shedule is measured in years ;)

All kidding aside, if I were starting from scratch I'd seriously consider an Ariel Atom SRA. Relatively cheap to buy and durable.

Ajzride

07-10-2021, 08:16 AM

I second the Atom for a track focused build.

jforand

07-10-2021, 10:18 AM

Have to agree on the 40hr overhaul number. That is crazy. I have a really hard time believing it is truly necessary. The ones above 1300cc also seem to require 100 octane, which is stupid expensive. I have a 2005 Yamaha FJR 1300 and that thing is bullet proof. It takes all kinds of abuse and the only thing you do is change the oil and add fuel. It is very different than say the BMW world.

The Atom is a very intriguing ride. I have gotten to lap as a passenger in one before. The shop at VIR is actually an atom dealer. He indicated that he lapped VIR significantly under 2 minutes (can’t remember the exact time he said). That are fast and the Honda is a pretty awesome motor.

Sgt.Gator

07-10-2021, 11:10 AM

My first question is whether you want a car you build yourself, or buy a car that's turn key ready to go?

Radicals are high maintenance. Any race car with a motorcycle engine is high maintenance. And that's the SR3. If you step up to the SR8 the costs at least double, probably triple. New ones are very expensive. The big advantage: If you stick to their maintenance schedule and let them do the rebuilds the engines are warrantied. That's incredible, nobody else that I know of warranties race car engines!

However because you are in Atlanta you have two excellent choices:

My #1 pick would be an NP01, made right there in Hoschton, GA by Sebeco Motorsport. Fast, modern, safe, low cost to operate. A real automotive engine, naturally aspirated, and a Sadev sequential shift. AIM datalogging. Spec race series. If you have a problem take it to the factory. What's not to like! If I ever go away from the Subaru platform my next car will probably be an NP01. Not cheap though, even the used ones on Racing Junk.com are a bit pricey. They aren't cheap, but IMHO are a great value for the $$. $80K+ for a new one from the factory.

The new contender is the Rush SR1. Cheap. Fast. Basically a grown up shifter kart. It's made in Texas. There is a dealer at Road Atlanta, a huge bonus for you. Having a factory dealer at your local track is great.https://rushautoworks.com/car_post/rush-sr/
The downside is it's brand new to the scene, Untested in battle. Motorcycle engine. Did I say cheap? They advertise at $28K but in reality you'll be at $32K.

SCCA SRF. The Spec Racer Ford series is huge. The cars are now in their 3rd+ Gen. The new spec adds a Sadev sequential shifter which takes care of the only truly weak link in the platform. Used $15K, new $50K.

Other contenders: Spec Miata. You can buy a used one that's ready to race for under $10K. A top contender will be $35K. Or build one from an unmolested clean used Miata, or buy a turn key race car from the manufacturer, the MX5 Global Cup car. That is if you fit. I don't. At least not in one with the hardtop. The Cup car with the halo cage top works for me. https://www.mx-5cup.com/about/mx5-car-info New Cup cars are $80K in 2021.

The HPD Civic Si Race Car is another turn key factory built car. Light, fast, factory supported. $60K+https://hpd.honda.com/Articles/Touring/CivicSi.

Finally in the Subaru/Toyota is he 86 platform. BRZ/FRS. Naturally aspirated. SCCA T4 class, great racing. So far they seem to be reliable. Buying a used 86 and converting to a race car is about $35K.

In short, all these are going to be at least $30K, up to $90K. If you put $40K in your 818 build you will be as fast and reliable as any of them.

Gator

jforand

07-10-2021, 03:38 PM

My first question is whether you want a car you build yourself, or buy a car that's turn key ready to go?

This a good question. I think I'm a bit over the "built not bought" thing. Not to slight anybody here, but for the most part we are just bolting in factory parts to a chassis FFR made. Yes, there is absolutely customer work all over the place to go with it. The idea of starting totally from scratch is intriguing, but I really don't think this is the right time to start that type of a project. I like to play and wrench, not so much the sourcing of parts type work. I have a huge appreciation for well made, machined, and engineered things. Heck, a straight up machined block of metal on the desk is totally cool to me. I have always said if I can't take it apart and work on it I don't want it.

Radicals are high maintenance. Any race car with a motorcycle engine is high maintenance. And that's the SR3. If you step up to the SR8 the costs at least double, probably triple. New ones are very expensive. The big advantage: If you stick to their maintenance schedule and let them do the rebuilds the engines are warrantied. That's incredible, nobody else that I know of warranties race car engines!

This really surprises me. I will say I do see them break at events all the time. I never got a feel for if that was the machines fault or owners that just really were not mechanically inclined. Probably both I guess.

However because you are in Atlanta you have two excellent choices:

My #1 pick would be an NP01, made right there in Hoschton, GA by Sebeco Motorsport. Fast, modern, safe, low cost to operate. A real automotive engine, naturally aspirated, and a Sadev sequential shift. AIM datalogging. Spec race series. If you have a problem take it to the factory. What's not to like! If I ever go away from the Subaru platform my next car will probably be an NP01. Not cheap though, even the used ones on Racing Junk.com are a bit pricey. They aren't cheap, but IMHO are a great value for the $$. $80K+ for a new one from the factory.

I very much agree with this choice. I like the entire idea of it being a NASA class and the factory being local. I also like the idea of the automotive engine. I was talking to a gentleman up at VIR that had the sole example at the event. He went agricultural in Turn 10 and tore up the right side rear diffuser. It would seem that they have the miata engine well honed for the weekend at this point. I probably need to get up there and take a look at them. I would say the new ones are not really something I need to be affording right now. I still do like the idea of this being a toy and if I put it into a tire wall that it will suck, but I won't have lost a small fortune. I also don't want to get into buying insurance all the time to safeguard against the loss.

The new contender is the Rush SR1. Cheap. Fast. Basically a grown up shifter kart. It's made in Texas. There is a dealer at Road Atlanta, a huge bonus for you. Having a factory dealer at your local track is great.https://rushautoworks.com/car_post/rush-sr/
The downside is it's brand new to the scene, Untested in battle. Motorcycle engine. Did I say cheap? They advertise at $28K but in reality you'll be at $32K.

Just saw this one. I like the idea, but I could not help thinking it looked a lot like Lightening McQueen :D

SCCA SRF. The Spec Racer Ford series is huge. The cars are now in their 3rd+ Gen. The new spec adds a Sadev sequential shifter which takes care of the only truly weak link in the platform. Used $15K, new $50K.

Need to check these out more

In short, all these are going to be at least $30K, up to $90K. If you put $40K in your 818 build you will be as fast and reliable as any of them.

If I can get the reliability then I think I could be happy. I obviously already have the investment going here and backing up will certainly cost money as well.

Sgt.Gator

07-10-2021, 04:37 PM

This guy breaks down SRF Costs very well. In fact, racing costs in general.
http://www.kangamotorsports.com/costs

DSR-3

07-11-2021, 04:39 AM

Race car or track days car, and what class? Race cars need to start with considering competitive opotions, and often that narrows choices quickly.
Not sure wht the Radical would be called high maintenance relative to other track/race cars. The ones I've seen/raced against were actually overbuilt for the class, and pretty heavy but nice cars. While bike engined cars can be somewhat sensitive, there are (used to be) plenty of donors out there, and unless you're racing SCCA nationals quite a few options. I raced various states of a Yamaha R1 powered DSR, and it was quite reliable for a pure race car. No reverse was a bit of a bummer at times, but I think Radial has a solution for that. My previous car (Formula Ford) had a crank life of 20 hours (and I proved it!).
I don't see how any 818 is going to get to Radical times without a huge budget imbalance- if at all. No idea what a fast 818 lap is around Laguna Seca, but in 2006 a Radical Prosport with a 1000cc bike motor could get you under 1:30.
For me, the draw of SRF is the competition. The cars are not exactly special, and totally limited in scope (ALL spec parts) if you race them, but awesome racing to be had, and reliable for the most part.
NP01 does look like a cool option if it fits your wants/needs.
There used to be some cool mini-copies of Porsche 962 called Diasio that looked like interesting track-day cars. I think they built quite a few of them.
Want to build a car? I have drawings and full bills of material to build a 750lb sports racer, and I know where the body moulds live...
There are some great deals on Stohr/West and other older cars out there. Again, a whole different level of speed, but like all these toys cheaper to buy than build.
Lot's of info on sports race cars at sportsracer.net/ (https://sportsracernet.smugmug.com/)

jforand

07-12-2021, 08:36 AM

Race car or track days car, and what class? Race cars need to start with considering competitive options, and often that narrows choices quickly.

I would love to compete on the racing scene, but I don't think that makes a lot of sense for me right now, SO I think I am limited to the Lapping type events, but truly extracting the most out of me and the machine is kind of where I always gravitate.

I don't see how any 818 is going to get to Radical times without a huge budget imbalance- if at all. No idea what a fast 818 lap is around Laguna Seca, but in 2006 a Radical Prosport with a 1000cc bike motor could get you under 1:30.

I tend to agree. I think it is just other category entirely. This is not to say that the 818 won't be a screamer and a total blast, but a purpose built aero with a superbike engine is going to be tough to beat until you are topping out on the back half of long straights and the 500-700HP guys are blowing by you. The goal would be to leave them so far behind in the turns they can't catch back up.

Want to build a car? I have drawings and full bills of material to build a 750lb sports racer, and I know where the body moulds live...

This is very interesting. Do you have details surrounding this?

There are some great deals on Stohr/West and other older cars out there. Again, a whole different level of speed, but like all these toys cheaper to buy than build.
Lot's of info on sports race cars at sportsracer.net/ (https://sportsracernet.smugmug.com/)

Interesting you mentioned Stohr/West. My brother in law has had a West for 7-8 years now. It is a sweat machine. I believe he actually might be in the process of acquiring another. With regard to 'buying' versus 'building' I totally agree with you there. "Labor of love" really starts to come into new meaning. The parts just add up so fast. I freely give away my labor as I find it fun, just wish the bills were as easy to give away :D

jforand

01-24-2022, 02:32 PM

Hey guys, been a while since I posted.

I decided to stick with the 818.

I have placed an order for an engine and am awaiting that build. In the mean time I have been tackling the body. Lots of tedious stuff there for sure.

Upfront in the cooling department I decided to use both the upper and lower openings that the front splitter affords. This meant making some sheet metal to corral or duct the air and force it in the radiator. The on the back side of the radiator I needed corralling/ducting to get it up and out of the hood.

161214161215161216161217161218

Coming along pretty nicely I think. I have found that a lot of the FFR panels don't quite get the job done and I have had to remake them for one reason or another. A bit of a bummer, but it is what it is.

So in messing around cleaning up the radiator. Particularly trying to remove the barbs for the trans cooler I KILLED IT. Need a new raditor and I would like to go back with an all aluminum radiator. I know there has been past discussion out there, but I did not see much great in as to what fits well and how it mounted. I don't really want to to a bunch of cutting and welding as I have it mostly finished up there.

I was thinking this one:

https://www.rallysportdirect.com/part/mis-mmrad-brz-13-mishimoto-performance-aluminum-radiator?gclid=Cj0KCQiAubmPBhCyARIsAJWNpiMvuKdoBCg sKiT4LfsDZY58_-VClnBwjbBg8N3cnYfyWMoC8WfnGC8aAivNEALw_wcB

I think the dimensions work, but I would need to relocate the mounting pins.

Dumb question:

How do you all fill the cooling system in the 818 without a radiator cap (on the radiator)? Basically, there are two high spots, the top of the radiator (couple feet down to either cooling tube) and the reservoir tank on top of the engine. Without being able to bleed air out of the top of the radiator and filling from the rear it seems I would always have a radiator sized air bubble up front.... I suppose I could rig up the garden hose and just blow it through, but I wasn't planning on using tap water.

jforand

01-24-2022, 02:48 PM

For all you R people out there I have another question concerning the rear sheet metal

Do you all install the inner fender sheet metal to keep the rocks and dirt from flying around the engine compartment?

From what I have seen thus far I am not liking it very much. The attachment is not overly solid and it needs to be in my opinion. I made and installed rocker panel blank offs to keep dirt and debris out of there.

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Further, to me it does not seem that there is a ton of secure mounting for the rear of the body in general. I see the entire rear end as a giant parachute of sorts that scares me a bit. I plan to cut the large center relief in the rear bumper and the bottom should be pretty tight. The wheel wells would be the largest air intrusion and a decent argument for the inner fender sheet metal. I know a lot of people have built additional structure to support a rear wing but I will not be running one of those for the time being. Do I need to fabricate structure to support the rear body?

Thoughts?

Up front I decided I like the look of the back of the front tires as it sat with fenders and no doors for a while. I cut the doors to create for of an air relief/gill slit. As such I will not be using the blanking piece of sheet metal. I took the inner door piece and cut it down to basically be a grit guard and double as a front mount for the door. Not a great pic, but you can see one of them here:

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J R Jones

01-24-2022, 05:34 PM

Hobby Racer

01-24-2022, 07:07 PM

I decided to stick with the 818.

Glad to hear it! Going back to VIR this spring?

Dumb question:

How do you all fill the cooling system in the 818 without a radiator cap (on the radiator)? Basically, there are two high spots, the top of the radiator (couple feet down to either cooling tube) and the reservoir tank on top of the engine. Without being able to bleed air out of the top of the radiator and filling from the rear it seems I would always have a radiator sized air bubble up front.... I suppose I could rig up the garden hose and just blow it through, but I wasn't planning on using tap water.

Can't help with radiators w/o caps as I put in an aftermarket aluminum unit with a cap so burping is easy. BTW: I used a rad made for SB Chevy, works great and its cheap!

For all you R people out there I have another question concerning the rear sheet metal

Do you all install the inner fender sheet metal to keep the rocks and dirt from flying around the engine compartment?

I think I'm one of the few that installed the inner fenders. They are VERY good at keeping the rocks/rubber/dirt etc... out of the engine bay. Glad I did it. Believe it or not the inner liners are secured well so long as you secure them at both ends and high in the center. I used riv-nuts instead of rivets as I remove them often to work on things. Also be sure to make the inner liners one solid piece by riveting a few "L" brackets along the arch.

jforand

01-24-2022, 08:21 PM

j, If you are interested in a stock Subaru radiator and fans for $50, let me know.
While you are thinking about rear structure, think also about filling the fuel tank from the bottom.
I am plumbing the fill to the top and venting the tank to the filler neck.
jim

Thanks JR. Currently I am thinking to depart from stock. I actually have another radiator as well. I think it was a non turbo as they don't have the vent in the top corner and the fans are single speed. I sourced an STI one on ebay and ran that for the cars brief 2-2.1 hrs of track life. I think I am going to go a bit bigger and better and see what happens. If it all goes up in flames I'll get in touch with you about the spare parts.

The fuel tank - oh man, where do I begin with the list of dislikes..... I think I will refrain from going there. I have an early kit and it came with the 33 hot rod tank I believe. I further believe that they made a switch sometime in the kit production. It is on the list of things to greatly modify before calling it truly done. I believe that the insane amount of fuel starvation was a contributing factor to my engines demise, certainly not the only or the largest but contributing. I need to do something with it and based on the list of about 11+ bad things about it I don't think it is really savable in my opinion. I don't want to give up the hope of putting in a passenger seat so the passenger fuel cell idea is out. it needs to stay behind the seat at this point. Boyd makes one that is better in many many ways, but it is smaller which is a bummer.

jforand

01-24-2022, 08:41 PM

Glad to hear it! Going back to VIR this spring?

Man I wish, but I think that is going to be a bit optimistic. My engine has not been started yet. The block is out of the machine shop, but not the heads. The overall build is next in the que. Still have to play with the fuel tank somehow. I think you did that hydromat if I remember. First priority there is to stop the full starvation with anything less than half to three quarters of a tank. The mat would probably go a long way, but I don't really want to invest down a dead end. I think the 100 would be better spent on a customer fuel cell or something different, maybe a Boyd. I think the top of the 33 hot rod tank is too narrow to cut a bigger opening in to drop a new fuel pump with surge bucket. Not sure, still bouncing that one around in the dusty areas of my mind.

Will need to get a Cobb AP, will need to get a tune, still securing the rear body work, haven't looked much at the top rear panels past they don't look good or fun, with need a way to get air to the intercooler. Thinking about laying a panel over the two humps effectively making a big center scoop just under the roll bar. Punch some big holes for the air to go down through the intercooler. Currently I do not think I am going to run the windscreen which should enable air to really hit that area well. Will also need a new exhaust system...I think. Haven't really paid attention where my quick go kart fabricobble will come out of the bumper.

One really big thing is that I totally fail the broom stick test. I had talked to a shop over a year and a half ago about completing out the roll cage to get me some A pillars and a roof. I would feel a lot safer with that. I'm wondering if the roof bars can arc/curve higher than the rear roll bar and come back down to meet it. If not then the rear hoop should probably be augmented as well, which gets into all the support tubes that are supposed to be within 6" of the top. Total wish list item if they are welding that much would be to bump out the left cockpit wall a few inches into the door providing me a bunch more elbow room.

Can't help with radiators w/o caps as I put in an aftermarket aluminum unit with a cap so burping is easy. BTW: I used a rad made for SB Chevy, works great and its cheap!

Very interested in your radiator choice. Can you elaborate on the exact one? Not sure what SB Chevy......oh wait, Small Block Chevy. I was trying to make that a car model and was going to ask for a model year. Yeah, if you have the exact one you used that would help out. I really would like a cap up front. I do not want to have to break hose joints to vent air each time I fill the system. I also don't want to cut in a vent on a new 500 aluminum jobby and void the warranty straight out of the gate. I am very keen to get the lower radiator output raised up the side (likely means side tanks) to clear the steering rack much better.

I think I'm one of the few that installed the inner fenders. They are VERY good at keeping the rocks/rubber/dirt etc... out of the engine bay. Glad I did it. Believe it or not the inner liners are secured well so long as you secure them at both ends and high in the center. I used riv-nuts instead of rivets as I remove them often to work on things. Also be sure to make the inner liners one solid piece by riveting a few "L" brackets along the arch.

This is good info and glad to hear it. It makes an awful mess when things are allowed to fly all over the place. I have the sheet metal up in the garage. I pretty much finished drilling and cleco'ing the radiator ducting tonight, so I think the next area of focus is going to be inner fender areas front and rear.

I share the love/hate relationship with the rivnut. I don't like riveting anything that the bottom of the rivet is lost in the tube if you have to drill it out. I am gonna have a LOT of left over rivets!!!

jforand

01-24-2022, 08:57 PM

Radiator ducting to the hood essentially complete. I still need to open up the hood vents more. They should end up somewhere close to that tape line. This should also really combat any hood bouncing at speed. Something I have as a big concern in the rear. I guess you and duct down and sit on the intercooler to help with that...still need to turn my attention back there and understand the sheet metal FFR supplied. Need an engine in there first though.

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fletch

01-25-2022, 12:45 AM

Interesting idea with the radiator ducting. I don't recall seeing that before. Is this necessary?

Rob T

01-25-2022, 06:44 AM

A few things from my car.

1) I have similar ducting on my radiator on the inlet side. Open on the back side, but do have Mechie's vents in the hood.
2) I have the rear fender wells installed. Seems to work really well. As much "stuff" as gets picked up by the front tires, I'd hate to see what a mess the ending bay would be with our the liners.
3) I have a Mishimoto radiator in the front with a cap. After the shop rebuilt my engine, they said evacuating the cooling system was tough. I did purchase the vacuum fill unit, but have not had to refill the system yet.

roadrashrob

01-25-2022, 08:31 AM

Dumb question:

How do you all fill the cooling system in the 818 without a radiator cap (on the radiator)? Basically, there are two high spots, the top of the radiator (couple feet down to either cooling tube) and the reservoir tank on top of the engine. Without being able to bleed air out of the top of the radiator and filling from the rear it seems I would always have a radiator sized air bubble up front.... I suppose I could rig up the garden hose and just blow it through, but I wasn't planning on using tap water.

Two things that I found made filling the cooling system very easy and got all the air out without any problem.

First was a "vacuum" cooling refill kit. I got this one on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07VWY1PSP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That got me about 95% of the way there, but right at the end just kept sucking coolant and not the remaining air. I then used this funnel from Eastwood while bringing the car up to temp and at the thermostat opened the air found its way out.
https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-coolant-system-fill-kit.html

Hope that helps.

Ajzride

01-25-2022, 09:11 AM

jforand

01-25-2022, 10:30 AM

I had a 3 page saga on my thread on bleeding the cooling system. Adding HVAC makes it even harder. I ended up adding a 0 PSI cap (fully vented) on top of the radiator and then ran from the overfill tube bung on the radiator back to the reservoir tank. This allows any air near the radiator to make its way back to the reservoir tank and escape.

I remember reading (and commenting) on your saga. What wasn't entirely clear until now is that the problematic setup did NOT have a cap on the radiator. You experienced exactly what my fear is with a giant radiator air lock. The vacuum filler should help, but if you can't pull a near perfect vacuum then you will never get most of the air. I think I need the cap as I had with the OEM radiator. I ran a slightly stronger cap in the rear say 20lb and then a 16 lb cap in the front with the overflow reservoir. That popped first and pushed any air and then coolant to the overflow. As that overflow is not air tight it was a perfect air purge. I never ran a vent line back tot he pressurized reservoir. I just watched to overflow to make sure the level was within range. You could see it push (fill) and then draw back in as it cooled.

J R Jones

01-25-2022, 10:38 AM

jforand

01-25-2022, 10:47 AM

Interesting idea with the radiator ducting. I don't recall seeing that before. Is this necessary?

Hey Fletch,

So in quest to get as much out of the equipment as possible I would say yes, it is necessary. The simple governing principal is that to have flow you need a pressure difference across the device. High pressure in the front and lower in the rear. The more the difference the more flow.

In the go kart mode I ran it completely open. He is a small pic from its brief life at VIR. Brother in the background.

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In this situation I had the full projected area of the radiator getting hit by the air stream, can't do any better unless you build a big funnel type device. Further, there is NOTHING on the backside of the radiator that could possible build any pressure so it blew straight through. I saw zero temp issues.

Now, with the body on the car things change quite a bit. The cross sectional opening in the front is far smaller than the projected area of the radiator, meaning I get less air in and presented tot he radiator. This is why I captured the lower opening just on top of the splitter as well. Essentially, I need to make the most out of what I get. The problem compounds on the backside. With closed in body work and inner fender wells, floor pans, etc. you create a closed in cavity that will build pressure. As pressure builds on the backside the pressure differential goes down and so does flow. Yes, there are reliefs in the hood and it is certainly not an airtight cavity, but it does make a difference. The easier you can get the air up and out with as little direction change as possible and not pressurizing a compartment the greater pressure difference you will have.

Unfortunately, I will not have any data to show a before and after, but air management is everything when you want to be efficient with what you have. This is precisely why radiator fans have cowling. If the fans is running it has no choice to pull through the radiator. Without it it will pull large amounts from the easiest path and that is not through the radiator.

jforand

01-25-2022, 10:54 AM

I have a modded, boosted 1992 Toyota MR2. The factory cooling system and bleed procedure is well thought out.
The radiator and heater core have 8mm(?) hose bibs with screw shut off valves. Clear tubing, 30 in long attaches to the hose bibs and are lashed straight-up.
The valves are opened and the air breathes out the tubes. Evaluating the bleed involves squeezing a coolant hose back at the engine. The pulsing pushes out any air. A final check is start and run, watching the clear tubes for bubbles, until purged. The process takes 10 minutes.
jim

We have a 97 BMW Z3 that is the worst car I have ever tried to put coolant in in my life. Many BMWs have exactly as you describe. Vents in key locations and a final run to watch for bubble. When they quit you are done. The Z3 did not get those bleeds. It has one air vent on top of the reservoir tank and you cannot hook a hose to it. You get like 2 parts air and 30 parts coolant all over the place. I have put it on ramps and all kind of tricks including pulse squeezing hoses and such. In the end you basically drive it and keep topping it off. Of course you can't open and top off until it cools. I think it took a week last time to finally get the fluid level to stabilize.

Perhaps a vacuum fill would work wonders. I might pick the one up that RoadrashRob suggested.

jforand

01-25-2022, 10:58 AM

Two things that I found made filling the cooling system very easy and got all the air out without any problem.

First was a "vacuum" cooling refill kit. I got this one on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07VWY1PSP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That got me about 95% of the way there, but right at the end just kept sucking coolant and not the remaining air. I then used this funnel from Eastwood while bringing the car up to temp and at the thermostat opened the air found its way out.
https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-coolant-system-fill-kit.html

Hope that helps.

Thanks for digging that stuff up.

I still think I will need a vent up front, but the vacuum should really help the situation. It was a bit of a pain in the initial config but not too bad. If you could really pull it down close to perfect vacuum then it would be the cats meow.

I like the no mess funnel as well. Definitely going to have to get that. Spillage is not a big deal if you are running straight water, but I like a little coolant to inhibit corrosion and to bump up the boiling point a bit.

jforand

01-27-2022, 05:18 PM

Rear Inner Fender Wells

Anyone who installed them have this issue in the rear of the wheel well? It certainly seems in my case the back flat panel continues to curve and passes through the vertical and actually starts coming forward again. The front of the wheel well actually does undercut a bit and that can be accommodated. The rear body does not, but the flat radiused panel forces the situation. You can see in the pics I tangent off the panel and head straight down to the bumper. This creates an arcing pie wedge that needs to be filled in. It won't be that bit of a deal and I will likely scab a piece in there versus remaking the entire flat piece.

Anyone else have this issue?

Hobby, if you haven't taken those measurements I don't need to inconvenience you at this point. I ended up making the bottom straight edges on the flat panel horizontal and then clearenced the needed areas. They don't look very horizontal as the car itself is raked on the ramps and jack stands, plus camera angles. This horizontal dictates the measurement I was looking for. It also causes the divergence in the rear, but keeps the coil over relief lined up properly. I think this is the least evil to overcome.

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jforand

01-27-2022, 08:10 PM

Rivet central but I think that is the way it is going to run. Nice clearance to the suspension arms, brake line, and tire with the shock pretty much bottomed (fully compressed).

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Hobby Racer

01-28-2022, 07:45 AM

jforand

01-28-2022, 10:08 AM

Looks good. You'll be glad you took the time to fit them. Keeps a lot of debris out of the engine bay.

Sorry I wasn't able to get back to you in time. The car is apart (image that ;)) and stuffed in the corner of the garage while I work on another project.

No problem at all. Isn't that one of the added bonuses of building one of these things? Most people think you build it and your done......the reality is the countless, 'put it together' and 'take it back apart' sessions. It is like additional free kits. :D

lance corsi

01-28-2022, 11:33 AM

I bet I’ve had mine together and apart 20 times so far. This is how I check my work regarding interfering with other parts. I have probably built 2 by now had I not made mistakes along the way.

J R Jones

01-28-2022, 01:54 PM

jforand

01-28-2022, 09:09 PM

J, In contrast, my rear wheel wells are FRP and supplement the body structure. Indeed they are body to frame mounts. I added structure between the wheel wells and the body.
Since the body was for a different chassis, I removed the inner surfaces and fabricated flat replacements from 0.090 epoxy sheet.
jim

Nice! That is going to be a cool little ride.

I'm going to stick with the front and rear ends of the inner wheel arch mounting to the body and the top of the inner fender mounting to the chassis. I think they'll help keep things from moving as much, but will definitely allow for flex. I put a whole lot more L brackets on them to increase their robustness. I think FFR had 5 or so bent tabs that were mostly cracked through from the aggressive hard 90 they put in them. Now I have eight 1" aluminum angle cut to 1" lengths with double rivets on each surface spaced all around. It certainly won't hold a catastrophic tire failure back, but little will. Just wanted to be sure they did not move and cause one of those catastrophic tire failures.

I have them 90% as of tonight. Tomorrow I will finalize everything and get them final mounted, knowing they will be back out soon, but a simple bolt back in is so much easier than the original fitment.

jforand

01-30-2022, 07:10 PM

Anyone know the specs on the the push on black rubber (hollow) foam weather stripping FFR supplies with the kit? Perhaps a part number from a supply house for the exact same stuff. I have run out and still have another front inner fender well and all of the back deck lid sheet metal to go. I really don’t want to gues at it at $3-4/foot and have it not match the rest of the car.

Thanks for any info. I might try FFR tomorrow. Hopefully they still have the same stuff as they did in 2014.

Hobby Racer

01-30-2022, 07:46 PM

I don't have a part number for you but you can measure what you have and cross reference on McMaster-Carr (https://www.mcmaster.com/push-on-seals/water-and-weather-resistant-hollow-foam-rubber-push-on-seals-with-bulb-on-top/).

That is where I got extra from.

Jetfuel

01-30-2022, 10:57 PM

These guys have a large variety of products

https://www.steelerubber.com/universal-landing

Jet

jforand

01-31-2022, 03:04 PM

Ordered this one from McMaster Carr. I think it is the exact same stuff.

Jet, thanks for the other site. I'll nose around there as well. Always need more places to lose money right?

https://www.mcmaster.com/1120A562/

Rob T

02-01-2022, 06:46 AM

You are not really "losing money", you are just converting it into things you "need".

jforand

02-01-2022, 10:01 AM

You are not really "losing money", you are just converting it into things you "need".

HAHAHA, I stand corrected :D

jforand

02-27-2022, 03:55 PM

What do you do when you don’t want the head lights? Cover them up of course. Spent quite a bit of time mulling this one over and determined these outside fitted covers were going to be the best. I wanted them removable so that everything still broke down as needed. I will be using some button head hex-drive screws around the flange with captured nuts on the backside.

What color should I go with? Black, silver, silver with a black flange outline, others? This is really kind of channeling the Spider-Man vibe which I think I would rather tone down a bit.

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mikeb75

03-03-2022, 11:56 AM

Headlight decals? :rolleyes:

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jforand

04-05-2022, 02:55 PM

This is the final look for the headlight covers. I honestly got pretty tired of working on them. Let me just say if you want to mix paints stay with the 2K auto paints. Rustoleum rattle cans just eat each other alive regardless of waiting the 1-2 days as they suggest.

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jforand

04-05-2022, 03:09 PM

Fuel Tank and Starvation Issues

Been thinking about this one for quite a lot of time. Read a bunch of stuff including this forum. Also talked with a few different fuel tank/cell people. In the end I think I realized that $500ish was the minimum that could be spent to get a decent solution and it could have gone over $2000 for a bonkers solution. I really did not want to give up the ability to have a passenger seat so the tank needed to stay put, or at least out of the cockpit. I also like the idea of keeping it nearer to the center of gravity than the front mount solution. So behind the seat it stayed. My investigation showed the Boyd tank would not solve the problem and they are so busy they do not want to entertain any custom work or modifications to their design. I went down the road of finding a guy that could/would weld up a customer tank and started looking at getting drawings together. For various and seemingly numerous reasons I wanted to maintain a few aspects and in short order I was drawing up the same steel hotrod tank, but with a baffling system inside. Ultimately, I decided to cutup the steel tank and give it a go.

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the original (and completely useless sump)

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Now to make a small chamber (sump) around the fuel pump that will not only prevent fuel from sloshing away, but maybe even build a higher column of fuel under sloshing. So I came up with two full baffles with trap doors. The slosh blows the first set of doors open and fills the center section as it cannot get past the doors on the other side. Same action for both left and right turns. One baffle is shut and the other open for visual display.

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Welded into the tank after an Ospho (phosphoric acid) pickling treatment to the steel. Man, that made a mess, but I think it should go a long way in preventing rust.

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It is important to note that I did not want this center section to be liquid tight, rather I was looking for 'calibrated' leakage. More of a Detention than a Retention. Slosh the tank around and the center section charges/raises as desired. let it rest and it equalizes over time. The equalizing was important when it came time to fill the tank. Fuel needs to flow across the entire bottom and fill.

jforand

04-05-2022, 03:16 PM

Now to seal the holes

Always HATED the level sender location. It was a challenge to get that sealed up. Harder than I thought it would be. Need to get a good weld, but not blow through. It definitely isn't pretty, but it doesn't leak.

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I went with a 6x10 fill plate from Harmon Racing Cells. I was really struggling to find a way to hang the pump so at least for now I cut out the mounting flange in a nice big circle as shown in the above post and am sandwiching it between the 6x10 plate and a 12 bolt ring. I drilled the ring to match the 12 bolt pattern. It also keeps everything clocked appropriately. This matters as I also opted for a 3X8" Holley Hydramat as my filter/pickup and it sits perfectly on the rectangular floor between the two baffles. It needs to stay aligned so as not to interfere with the trap doors opening.

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I was not able to get the nut ring inside after the baffle install so I had to cut it, no big deal just a bit of a bummer.

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The last thing I really need to figure out is how to run the vent. This plate has a 1" rollover vent......that's right, no more slow filling, fuel spitting anymore!! I was thinking about running the hose as high as possible and then going back down to the bottom of the car with an open vent. I don't want fumes near me or the engine compartment. With ~1.5 feet of vertical tubing straight up and the center location on the tank it is unlikely that fuel will ever make it out. I suppose I could always throw a loop in there as well. If it ever got fuel in it it would act as a P trap of sorts. It takes 30 feet of water to get about 14psi, so with fuel being less dense and a 12" loop I think we are talking around 0.5psi max that things could pressurize before it pushed by the fuel.

Was thinking maybe something like this in the back of the driver's side rocker area:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B083L89VVD/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?pd_rd_i=B083L89VVD&pd_rd_w=ZC4QQ&pf_rd_p=57cbdc41-b731-4e3d-aca7-49078b13a07b&pd_rd_wg=uUdYC&pf_rd_r=ASZZQS6EYE5KRS0MFRGC&pd_rd_r=00bca5ed-a313-483f-ba81-590271834361&s=hi&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFYNlVMRUZERU9HTVQmZ W5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAyMDk2NjY3TjRSUFJNRk9XQjAmZW5jcnl wdGVkQWRJZD1BMDk2OTc0ODNBWDBQMUc0WFA1MCZ3aWRnZXROY W1lPXNwX2RldGFpbF90aGVtYXRpYyZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWR pcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1

Easier to post this stuff than do it. That was about 2 months of thought, research, ordering, changing my mind, ordering again, waiting, and fabrication all in about 10 minutes :D

jforand

04-13-2022, 09:04 PM

Got the side jacking mod added to the car that I have seen on Gator's and Hobby's (no mill for the lightening holes here John) pages. Makes getting the car up a whole lot easier. The body really added difficulty to the jacking. There is about a 2" difference in the tires coming off the ground, but that is without an engine installed, probably won't even out but will be better than that with the rear ballast added. I do plan to add a 'jacking point' on the end of the insertion bar. For just a tire change it is totally fine, but as I go higher for ramps or high stands the bar starts to angle with the car more than I like. I am not worried about the bar coming out, but the jack spitting out to the side is another story. Some sort of point or radius that sits in the jacking cup will allow for the rotation of the bar and still result in pure vertical force on the jack. Thought about a half circle cross section of a steel pipe (don't have one around), but I might just end up cutting a 1" length of a 1" square tube and then chopping that on the diagonal. I will then weld the triangular section under the bar out of the end.

I did realize that with the staggered tire/wheel setup I really need to be able to lift the ends (as well as the sides) to rotate tires side to side.....I guess I can't totally get away without jack stands for quick tire swaps (obviously not allowing anything under the unsupported car).

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J R Jones

04-14-2022, 10:42 AM

j, I located the lift arm pockets a bit higher between the frame tubes at the junction. I put lift pads on the bottom of the arms to hold fast to the jack cup.
jim

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jforand

04-14-2022, 12:54 PM

j, I located the lift arm pockets a bit higher between the frame tubes at the junction. I put lift pads on the bottom of the arms to hold fast to the jack cup.
jim

165483

Cool. I went with this. It will be plenty strong without boxing it in with triangles. If it does bend I’ll do something, but I really don’t see it bending.

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J R Jones

04-14-2022, 01:48 PM

j, Tube wall thickness is significant here and the bend locus will be just outside the pocket. You might consider more clearance in the body hole above the lift arm.

Hobby Racer

04-14-2022, 04:26 PM

j, Tube wall thickness is significant here and the bend locus will be just outside the pocket. You might consider more clearance in the body hole above the lift arm.

I did have to clearance the body more than I thought after testing it with the body securely fastened. I have about 1/4" on all sides now.

jforand

04-14-2022, 08:07 PM

Yep, I took care to make sure the body was securely fastened prior to popping the holes. Basically unibitted through into the pockets and filed them out the the inner walls of the pocket tube. The plan was always to go back and take another 1/4” all the way around with nice radiuses corners when the sides come off next. Right now the pockets themselves are in the way and I gotta get smarter about taking everything apart each time I want to do a single thing.

Was working on front inner fender/tire clearance tonight. Had to shave that fender/nose seam down. Had three bolts there and saved the closest to the tire one to oblivion. Then there were just two bolts. I have about 3” of tire travel until I hit the inner splash guard with the wheel straight, a little more with the wheel turned into the wheel well, and about 2.7” with the wheel turned out. That is going to be about as good as it gets. I have not converted tire travel to shock travel yet and then spring force. I ran 500lb springs in the front at VIR and liked the travel and roll I was getting. I was way to soft in the rear with the 300s from FFR. I did some math and thinking another set of 500s should be pretty close to right (without aero at this time).

jforand

04-16-2022, 10:45 AM

What does everyone do to secure the front center section of the engine cover? I don't have the finishing aluminum in yet and from a quick drop in fitment it appears it does not fit well at all. I assume it is for an S or C and not the R. Is the cover supposed to attach to that somehow? I have the hood pins on all four corners, but with the lengthy clearance cutouts for the rearward roll bar supports the center just flops around. Any significant air will just rip it off.

Currently, I have a plan to skin over the two humps to form a center duct/tunnel to force air down through a TMIC. So, something right up front (back of the cockpit) is going to be required. I suppose the easiest thing is to mount some aluminum angle to the cover and have it drop down over a couple hood pin type extensions and cotter pin it.

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J R Jones

04-16-2022, 12:06 PM

I have created FRP beam structure in my flat panels as needed, and bonded aluminum tube or blocks at key fastening points. In your case that would be difficult.
You could consider light struts attached to the roll bar to support the FRP not unlike the way front splitters are attached to body or bumper.
jim

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jforand

04-16-2022, 04:26 PM

Jetfuel

04-16-2022, 04:49 PM

The S has a vertical engine cover block off panel (pn 80578) where the cover seats against bulb seals nicely contour to the humps….

Jet….hope this help….need a pic?

Hobby Racer

04-16-2022, 06:37 PM

The S has a vertical engine cover block off panel (pn 80578) where the cover seats against bulb seals nicely contour to the humps….

Jet….hope this help….need a pic?

Yes, these are what I used. When you rivet them in to cover the hump openings it really stiffens the whole cover up front. Then there is an aluminum angle piece that sits on the frame. I'll see if I can find a picture.

Hobby Racer

04-16-2022, 06:53 PM

First picture shows the aluminum pieces riveted in place. Mine are painted black. The 2nd shows the aluminum angle piece that is secured to the frame and fits into the cover piece when closed.

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jforand

04-16-2022, 07:43 PM

Ok, so I do have those pieces, but they are going to take some manipulation as they don't seem to fit the R chassis back there. I'll have to look at them closer and compare to the pics here. I have been giving thought to leaving them open and cutting the big center relief out of the rear bumper allowing for air to wash the engine bay. This probably is pretty bad when you come to a stop thought as it would wash right up the back of your helmet.

So you all just let it sit down on the chassis then without any other fastening. I am surprised, the aluminum will obviously provide torsional rigidity but not much for preventing lift. Ok, I'll keep playing.

Hobby, it appears that you cut back the sides quite. I still have mine stock coming all the way up to the door.

Jet, thanks for the part number, I'll see if the FFR sharpie matches your number.

Hobby Racer

04-16-2022, 08:02 PM

Hobby, it appears that you cut back the sides quite. I still have mine stock coming all the way up to the door.

Yes, take a look here for pics and an explanation.

Removing the winglets (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?23199-John-s-EZ36R-H6-818R-Build&p=306774&viewfull=1#post306774)

jforand

04-16-2022, 08:06 PM

So this is part number 80578. It does not fit that well and has cutouts that must go with the S roll bar. Hobby was yours this way. It is tough to tell in the blacked out pic, but I think I can see the cutouts in the fiber glass, but it appears the aluminum is continuous. Was I supposed to have a different part number? It also starts to depart from the curvature of the outer portions of the humps and leave very little riveting overlap, not to mention it does not curve forward as it nears the door. Putting the arch in myself is going to result in more misalignment.

165563 Love the FFR handprint in the glass on the driver's side hump. Looks like a petroglyph

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This is the other piece which could be made to fit pretty well by just knocking off the edge 'fingers'. It will then slide forward perfectly. Riveting it will be very tough with the harness bars right over top of it.

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So if these two pieces overlap and are positioned side by side a couple fasteners through both would definitely solve my floating concern.

Bob_n_Cincy

04-16-2022, 10:33 PM

I added an additional hood pin between the 2 humps.

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J R Jones

04-16-2022, 10:52 PM

Hmm, not sure I'm following you JR. Are you simply saying strengthen the lid so that a front center mounting point is not required? With the geometry that would be pretty difficult as I can't go across the front as it would go under the roll bar supports and affect removability. I was thinking about bonding in supports for the panel itself as it is very floppy, but I plan to rigidly duct up the top mount intercooler in a large rectangle that the whole panel will firmly sit on. Very similar stability augmentation as I did with the front hood ducting.

J, The photo and unfinished surfaces make detail difficult to perceive. Basically I have hollow channels or half tubes that follow the perimeter of the part and bridge the flat sections to limit twist, bend and oil-canning.
In this case with two hinges on one end, a remote release latch on the other end, and gas-struts in the middle, the panel must support itself closed or open.
This merely mimics OEM structure for hoods and lids regardless of the material.
jim

jforand

04-17-2022, 09:55 AM

J, The photo and unfinished surfaces make detail difficult to perceive. Basically I have hollow channels or half tubes that follow the perimeter of the part and bridge the flat sections to limit twist, bend and oil-canning.
In this case with two hinges on one end, a remote release latch on the other end, and gas-struts in the middle, the panel must support itself closed or open.
This merely mimics OEM structure for hoods and lids regardless of the material.
jim

Gotcha, that makes perfect sense for your cover for sure. Here I have to go around roll bar bracing so it necessitates breaks in any perimeter structure.

jforand

04-17-2022, 09:59 AM

I added an additional hood pin between the 2 humps.

165569

Yes, pretty much exactly what I was originally thinking. This is opposite of Hobby’s take on what to attach the aluminum too. he riveted to the cover and you went to the chassis and have it sit down on the bulb seal used elsewhere. Based on my initial poor fit of the piece it would probably work better if it had a weather stripping surround.

Food for thought, thanks guys!

Hobby Racer

04-17-2022, 11:56 AM

So this is part number 80578. It does not fit that well and has cutouts that must go with the S roll bar. Hobby was yours this way. It is tough to tell in the blacked out pic, but I think I can see the cutouts in the fiber glass, but it appears the aluminum is continuous. Was I supposed to have a different part number? It also starts to depart from the curvature of the outer portions of the humps and leave very little riveting overlap, not to mention it does not curve forward as it nears the door. Putting the arch in myself is going to result in more misalignment.

I think I remember making new hump block out plates because the FFR ones fit so poorly. That is why there are no holes in my aluminum. Here are some pics from the back side. Sorry for the weird angles but my body panels are hanging upside down from my basement rafters at the moment. :rolleyes: That's were I store them during the off season so I have easy access to the chassis and don't scratch them up.

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jforand

04-17-2022, 08:18 PM

So that makes sense on fabbing a new piece. I need to make a few determinations. One, has the panel relaxed and be made to fit the metal. I can force the fiberglass to match the arch, but not sure that is the right move just yet or just cutting new aluminum. Also will need to determine if I like mounting the humors panel to the chassis or the fiberglass. If I go your route I could use a couple Zeus fasteners on the vertical piece to positively hold the center of the panel down. If I mount to the chassis then it will likely be Bob’s added hood pin solution.

Thanks for the pics…..not sure this is the off season anymore……get those panels down!

J R Jones

04-17-2022, 09:02 PM

A word of caution on Dzus fasteners. They are more suitable for horizontal surface joints than vertical. In a vertical application the road loads cause them to surge up and down causing shear wear on the hole and grommet, elongation and loosening. A rivnut would be more durable.
jim

jforand

04-18-2022, 07:23 AM

I had not heard that before. I have also never used them before. Certainly you don’t want them holding up the weight of the panel. In this instance the panel will sit firmly on the chassis bars and needs to be held from rising up, but that is still shear loading as you say. I do know I want it to be a ‘tool free’ removal process.

J R Jones

04-18-2022, 10:07 AM

As you suggest panel support is an element to my caveat. I have a Mercedes SSK replica with a "coffin" four panel hood in aluminum. The two top panels are joined by a piano hinge and wrap across the radiator shell and cowl, then down the sides. The side panels are louvered flat sheet. Dzus fasteners at the corners and mid-panel. In 18K miles the Dzus attachments on the side panels were all wallowed-out. I had to TIG patch the holes and replace the Dzus with Well-nuts and 1/4-20 screws. The Well-nuts provide a clamp load and rubber isolation to control (some of) the NVH.
BTW the hood panels are isolated from the cowl and radiator by leather strap segments, and further secured with a buckled leather strap. 1929 period correct. Not for you.
jim

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jforand

06-10-2022, 10:32 AM

Well guys, I am going to put a back seat in my R model, or rather put the R in the back seat for a while!. I have decided to accept a new position that is going to take me from Atlanta GA to Austin TX. I move out there next week. I like to imagine that I am just like you guys with tons of crap everywhere (cars, tools, stuff, stuff, more stuff, etc.).....maybe that is just my problem, not sure. As such, a move is going to be VERY difficult and Atlanta has basements whereas TX does not. So, this is go far out from the city to get a shop or garage in addition to the house (far commute to down town), sell all the stuff, or try to leave it behind for later. Right now I have decided to punt and just get a small apartment for the first year. This lets the wife and kids stay planted in Atlanta while I put me head down and focus for a while. Hopefully, I will also be able to find the right spot and get everything moved by that year's end. Kind of an eat the elephant one bite at a time.

Hoping to find a few 818 friends in TX to live vicariously through!

Ugh, I have been waiting for like 8 months for the new engine and when it finally IS ready I won't be able to work on it!!!!