JForand - Atlanta Build [Archive]

jforand

03-08-2020, 01:59 PM

I wanted to take a minute to open up a build thread and introduce myself to the 818 and larger FFR community.

I will start by saying that I am very new to the FFR scene and while fairly competent mechanically speaking this whole Subaru scene is also new to me, so many variations!! So I am very much getting used to the forum and how it works. I have already found so much great discussion and pictures. I am the lucky purchaser of Doowop's kit that was out in Denver. He never actually started the it, but did manage to collect a decent amount of donor parts.

So after a whirlwind trip of flying from Atlanta to Denver in the morning and packing things into a 16' truck, my Dad (road trip companion) and I manage to make it out to Topeka KS by the end of Day 1. We then hit the road again at 8am local and powered all the way home by about midnight of Day 2 to complete the remaining 900 miles. Day 3 was the unloading. My biggest issue off the bat is one of space. It appears I have a bit of a car problem and I was really hoping to build this car in the basement. They are supposed to weigh 1800lbs all in right? So I figured it would not be too bad to get some people to tilt the car through some french doors without the body, engine, and trans.....well, the chassis alone is significantly heavier than I was hoping for. For now, it will be up in the garage. I may resume an effort with the HOA to put a garage door down in the day-light basement wall, but that will be another story.

Because of the heavier chassis weight, I decided to just leave it in the truck and go straight to the powder coater. I took the chance to strip all the suspension links and knuckles, find all the bracketry, and the aluminum panels and threw those in the batch as well. These should be coming back sometime next week. Going gloss white for those that are wondering.

Probably good enough for an intro. I will go ahead an apologize up front for all of the questions I am sure to post that have likely been discussed multiple times. I will do my best to attempt searches prior to posting.

If any of you 818 people are at all close to Atlanta, please let me know. I would love to see your ride and you can never have too many friends!!

redbudrr

03-08-2020, 02:33 PM

Congratulations!! Enjoy your build!!

AZPete

03-08-2020, 02:41 PM

Welcome! You are starting a grand adventure with a self-fulfilling conclusion, but you probably know that already. Sending stuff out to get powder coated now is smart. Buying a 2nd-hand kit and a decent amount of donor parts was also smart. I will look forward to seeing your progress and feel free to ask questions because the guys here are friendly and helpful.

jforand

03-08-2020, 04:42 PM

Going through the stuff getting organized while waiting for powder coating

The donor parts are supposed to be from an '04 STI, but I must say when sourcing new wheel bearings and hubs the parts from a standard '04 WRX seemed to match up better.

Transmission I believe is a 08-09 6MT. I tagged it with what I found

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I am close to being able to button it up with the 2WD conversion. I think I have it understood. As with everything, there seems to be a lot of variation. Here are a couple shots of what it looks like now

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and the parts going in

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I have made sure the reverse lockout is in and working properly. I am going to try to come up with a cable or something to leave that intact. My current track car is a Mustang with reverse in the top left. Zero chance of hitting it on the track. Here it is top right and could be a mistake when trying for 5th. I just don't think it makes sense to zip tie it out of existence.

I assume that everyone is reinstalling the little banded roller bearings on the shaft prior to reinstalling the tail housing? Certainly seems like the right thing to do to me. All this stuff came disassembled in a box so I have had to figure things out. I reinstalled the little plastic oil routing device in the tail housing before bolting down the bearing and gear into it. This takes oil from the tail housing and routes it into the shaft so those little roller bearings see lubrication. I am also going to only reuse the front half of the plastic oil tray as the second half extends into the area blanked off by the aluminum plug. I see no reason to try to trim it down just to deliver oil to the casing's wall.

The last things I have to consider on the transmission are an oil cooler and a good way to clean up the case.

The plastic plug for the electronic diff wiring was all brittle so I took it out. I was thinking about trying to thread that and have it be the return line for a trans cooler. Any thoughts as the best place to install the return line? I could go somewhere smaller and more in the body of the transmission. There does not seem like a high flow path back up front from the tail housing section. I could just freeze plug the large hole for the center diff wiring.

I guess I should consider a new throw-out bearing as well...

Open to hearing about how to clean the casing well for paint. I need to make sure not to get crud into the box as I do not want to tear it down.

Ajzride

03-08-2020, 09:22 PM

Welcome aboard!! I’m not from ATL, but travel there frequently for work. What part of the city are you in?

jforand

03-09-2020, 08:01 AM

Thanks for the welcomes everyone.

NE, up around the Mall of Georgia area. 25 miles or so outside the perimeter (285) up I-85.

Ajzride

03-09-2020, 08:21 AM

Thanks for the welcomes everyone.

NE, up around the Mall of Georgia area. 25 miles or so outside the perimeter (285) up I-85.

Our ATL office is in John's Creek, so maybe I can stop in and visit one day when I'm up there.

jforand

03-09-2020, 09:21 PM

Not too far away! Let me know when you are in town and we'll work something out.

Just got my first box of wrong parts from Rockauto. Looks like the front hubs will work, the rears came in with 24 splines not the 27 required. Apparently, there is a Gen 1 and 2 thing going on with the '04 WRX STI. I was struggling with the 04 STI being the source of my donor parts as none of the hubs were looking correct as they came with the bearing and a flange that bolts to the knuckle. Mine are more old school where they press into the bearing that is also pressed into the knuckle. I'll keep working it. Was also looking into CV axles as I don't have any at this time. Looks like those will need to be 25 spline inboard and 27 outboard, which seems to be readily available at Rockauto.

AJZride, do you have a thread out here as well? I did a quick search but did not find anything.

NetWRX

03-09-2020, 09:59 PM

Welcome and Congrats on your new adventure.

That transmission looks like mine and doesn't appear to have an oil pump so that makes a transmission cooler more difficult.

I believe the oil for the needle bearings flows through the center of the bolt on gear/bearing shaft that sits over it. There is a white oil control piece that sits under that gear that takes oil from the other shaft (missing from your pictures) and puts it into the center of the bolt on gear shaft where it can flow over the needle bearings. If you remove the bolt on gear you should see it. There is also another white plastic oil control piece and a spring steel washer that sits at the end of the other shaft behind the large plug in your picture. I trimmed the splines off of the other shaft in mine and left the bearings, races, shaft and oil guides intact, then I welded the plugs to the outside of the housing and reinstalled the oil guides so the oil could still flow through the channel to the needle bearings and back into the main case.

If your spacing is the same as mine you will need to remove about a quarter inch from the shaft of the FFR 6mt adapter bolted to the ring gear in img-4787 and use an arbor shim/washer to take out the slop in the fit between the FFR adapter and the bolt on gear (they should touch lightly when assembled). The force that spins the bolt on gear and slings the oil is eliminated by the removal of the center diff so the fit between those two pieces is the only thing that makes the oil return system work besides gravity (at least in my speculation). If you decide not to trim and reinstall the other shaft and oil guides you will want to remove the bearing race I see in img-4790 so it doesn't vibrate out later on as it has in a couple other builds.

Unfortunately I did not take any pics of the assembly or I would post them but you should be able to find a diagram or 2 in the service manual. I haven't run mine yet but your pictures made me think of that so take it for what it is, just some ramblings from fellow garage dweller...

Rob T

03-10-2020, 06:05 AM

jforand: I am in Woodruff, SC. Not too far from Atlanta. I have an R (see Chad Plavan's build) and my build for the full story. I'd be happy for you to stop by sometime at your convenience. Welcome aboard.

jforand

03-10-2020, 05:42 PM

NetWRX you raise some interesting points. First, I am in totally agreement with you that the oil is supplied to the needle bearing via the inside of the lower shaft that they are on. I surmised as you indicated that there is a plastic cup of sorts that sit behind and is held in place by the gear bolted into the tail housing. I did indeed install that, though not visible in the pics. I was figuring that the bolted tail housing gear would throw enough oil up there that some would find its way into the cup and therefore the center of the shaft. What I did not consider is that the gear is no longer driven. Hmm, I will need to go think on this for a while. If you stare long enough eventually the parts speak to you...(I assume this happens to all of us right?)

So I was thinking that I was happy with the bolted adapter (Center diff part and the FF adapter bolted together) clearance. I spent a pretty decent amount of time contemplating and measuring what that looked like. I believe that it will be free to float back and forth on the splines about an 1/8th of an inch before contacting the shaft on the tail housing (bolted) gear. I was actually a bit worried about binding so was thinking this was perfect. As I mentioned this all came disassembled in a box so at first I was wondering how the adapter was going to stay on the shaft in the first place. I'm thinking out load again, but O suppose you might be able to cutoff the shaft that has the adapter to a proper length, thread the inside, and bolt a retaining washer on the end. This would enable you to completely remove the output shaft you spoke of reinstalling and the bolted in tail housing gear and then really no need for oil back there.....

I do also have that other circular whit plastic oil control ring which seemed useless without oil flowing through the second plastic channel. As you can tell I opted to put the plugs in the way FF suggested. There is another gentleman out here that cut the case a lot shorter and welded it up from the outside (Looks like a little chicken, they joked about that). I actually really like that approach and cutting the shaft, threading and securing the adapter might enable that a better. I will roominate some more and report back. Thanks for the additional thoughts, it really helps.

Rob T - awesome, thanks for the invite. I actually spend quite a decent amount of time at Lake Hartwell there on the boarder. I'll have to let you know the next time I go up there and maybe we can look at your ride. Very nice to know there are some footsteps ahead of me.

jforand

03-10-2020, 07:17 PM

NetWRX - Ok, I roominated a bit on the tail of the trans.

So introducing the tail shaft back into the mix in any fashion puts another couple bearings in there that will need lubricated. I think I am going to struggle to get oil to flow in the stock manner to serve those bearings. I really like the idea of pulling all of it out. This is where the below pics come in. I am proposing to remove everything from the tail housing, cut the shaft down, thread the inside, and utilize a fine thread bolt and washer to secure the 2WD adapter in position. This solution seems to remove everything that needs oil from the rear of the transmission and would also be the minimal weight route. See pics

OK, so before people get excited about my choice of hardware, these pics are for demonstration only!!! This is not the washer and fastener that I would intend to use.

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I may have found a pretty big challenge to the simple solution though. I just did a quick experiment to see how it might go as I have ample shift that will be cut out. I grabbed the appropriate size drill and was planning to do a bit of sizing and tapping to see how it went and determine if I could get comfortable with the operation. I believe the shaft is hardened, which is not really surprising but I was unable to get a HSS drill bit or a tap in a close size tot he existing hole to bite at all. I'm not sure I can get this done. It might involve taking the shaft out and having someone temper the end and machine it. Starting to seem not worth it. Another alternative to the screw and washer would be to cut a grove around the outside of the shaft and use a snap ring of sorts (some sort of washer would still be required). There is not axial thrust so it should be just fine. A small grinding disc or two should overcome the hardened metal....

Any ideas?

Since I do not have a great way to get lubrication into the shaft for those needle/roller bearings I am wondering about just leaving them out barring the above solution. Without a set of gears putting a side load on the shaft it will likely just spin inside the over sized bore of the gear/shaft bolted into the tail housing without issue. The tail housing gear's bearing no longer needs positive lubrication as it is no longer driven.

Also wondering if there are any great ideas as to how to get that tail shaft race out of there. It never occured to me that it might fall out, but apparently there have been reports of that. Really nothing to get a grab on and slide hammer. I think I have heard about people welding on them resulting in a net shrinkage allowing it to fall out. Has anyone tried this?

NetWRX

03-10-2020, 09:41 PM

Hi J,

Your links aren't working but I think I get the idea. You could drill and tap a couple holes in the adapter shaft and install set screws with locktite or something similar to prevent it from backing off the splines. If you grind a couple flats on the adapter shaft it should give you enough purchase to drill holes.

One of the thoughts I had when "listening" to the mechanism was that the needle bearings help set the lash for the gears in the main part of the housing (I think AeroSTI mentioned that in a thread somewhere), but I don't know how critical that is. There is only a tiny amount of side to side play in that shaft so theoretically you should be able to keep it in the center with set screws. The amount of abuse the transmission takes though worries me that it might work its way back off. A snap ring would be great for that, but wouldn't address the lash. Another thought is to use the return from your transmission cooler setup to dump oil in the right spot to lubricate the bearings. I'm with you on the simplicity of removing the whole works from the tail housing though. I left it because it was the easiest thing I could think of at the time. I may change it still. With the shafts installed the bolt on gear wont be spinning at the same rate it was when driven by the center diff so leaving the shafts in there will move oil marginally at best.

Couple ideas for the race: You could try freezing the it with some locktite freeze and release and heating the metal surrounding it, or cut the heads off a couple nails and weld them to the race then tap it out with the slide hammer.

Either way you go we are in uncharted territory here. I am not aware of anyone else using a splash lubricated 6mt, but they are a more readily available than the pump models so we probably wont be the last.

Cheers

jforand

03-10-2020, 09:42 PM

I figured a little grove would not hurt on a shaft that has essentially been de-purposed. So this is what the experimentation yielded. This proved WAY easier than trying to drill out and cut internal threads in the hardened shaft. I also won't have to worry about a bolt backing out on me, um except for the six holding the coupling together that is.

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I can easily tailor the depth and width of the grove for the closest snap ring I find. I could also very the width of the washer. It think this is pretty efficient and allows for the shaft to be chopped and nothing left to lubricate, just an empty tail housing. I could actually trim down the tail housing further by almost an inch if I so chose. I think for now I'll let it ride. I have yet to add a TIG to the inventory. I have an Eastwood 220V MIG and it does have an aluminum spoon gun, but I have never tried that and do not have the appropriate gas bottle.

Let me know what you guys think.

NetWRX

03-10-2020, 09:50 PM

Ahh now I understand, cut off and tap the inner shaft that the needle bearings sit on. Great idea, if you know someone with a lathe you could step the washer to maintain the shaft in the center of the adapter. Probably wouldn't require much machining.

NetWRX

03-10-2020, 09:59 PM

That should work. You could still use a stepped washer that fits the ID of the adapter if lash is a concern.

Hobby Racer

03-11-2020, 08:10 AM

Wow, its amazing how we come up with very similar ideas!

You might want to read thru this thread to see how I accomplished the same task.

How to convert any Subaru 6 Speed (6MT) to Front Wheel Drive (FWD) (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?34577-How-to-convert-any-Subaru-6-Speed-(6MT)-to-Front-Wheel-Drive-(FWD))

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=120091&d=1578241989

jforand

03-11-2020, 09:02 AM

I actually have seen your thread Hobby Racer. Man, you have some great stuff. I will admit that I have read a lot fo stuff and I might be blending a few things, but I believe you are the one with the 'baby chick' looking welded plugs right? Also the totally awesome shift linkage. When the time comes I might have to see if you want to sell another set of those cams, totally awesome looking!

So no issues in cutting that shaft off with any type of gear lash or spacing internal? I have been looking at the diagrams and trying to determine this very ting that NetWRX has mentioned. I personally do not have ANY lateral play in this shaft (Pinion shaft) at all. There is a large thrust bearing right behind the pinion way at the front (not shown well in the pic for some reason, but it is in the text following), there is the a needle bearing #7 and then I think further down the shaft you have #20 and #21 bushing and another needle bearing. These work to support both side of the shaft just outside gears 1 and 2 so they are in double shear and there is nothing unsupported. I think this situation plays out again further down the shaft. Once you exit the main case into the tail housing the shaft has another large gear the drives the final output shaft, not to mention has to hold the clunky center diff. It would be very unwise to have that unsupported without a bearing on the end to provide that positive double shear. I think that is what those additional needle bearings are for with the inner shaft and then you of course have the final large bearing in the tail house.

By cutting all of this out I you are just taking out the second section of the shafts purpose. What is still transmitting force inside the case is framed by bearings. At least that is the way I am interpreting things.

The step on the washer is a good idea as a bit of an insurance policy, but I started thinking about the adapter itself it has 6 bolts precisely securing and centering the FF component on the smaller splines. In order for the smaller splines to laterally or rotationally move independently the 6 bolts on the coupler would need to fail. The coupler in effect IS the stepped washer concept!

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Thanks for the help guys. I think I like this a lot and am going to see about sourcing a snap ring today. Gotta and some Home Depot parts in the car right? One final think I will take into account is I want a bit of axial play to make room for thermal expansion. I would have to have the expansion shear off the snap ring, that would be very bad.

Hobby Racer

03-11-2020, 09:43 AM

Your thinking is right on. You don't need a stepped washer, only a good fitting snap ring and a normal washer. Then you can cut the shaft off like I did and get rid of all that extra (heavy) stuff.

BTW, how did you groove the shaft?

jforand

03-11-2020, 01:54 PM

Oooh, just got a video from the powder coater. The chassis looks good in gloss white!!! Hopefully I will get that by the end of the week.

Well, I just wrote up a detailed reply and yet again had it wiped out by the forum signing me off....they are pretty aggressive with that time table imo.

I used a dremel style orientation pneumatic grinding wheel. I made the mark and braced very carefully against the inside of the case. I then took a small allen wrench and stuck it in one of the shaft's oiling holes and used that very effectively to rotate the shaft under the cutting wheel. It really worked well.

Hobby - do you have a trans cooler? I wanted to utilize that 26mm hole on the back right where the center diff wiring goes in, but I don't think that large of a (metric) hole is going to translate into the AN world very well. I think I am going to have to default to the return line going to the fill plug up on the left main case. I basically did this on my Mustang's differential which operates great, it just makes draining and filling a really big pain.

jforand

03-11-2020, 01:59 PM

jforand

03-11-2020, 03:57 PM

The final product of the 2WD conversion

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Hobby Racer

03-11-2020, 04:28 PM

I used a dremel style orientation pneumatic grinding wheel. I made the mark and braced very carefully against the inside of the case. I then took a small allen wrench and stuck it in one of the shaft's oiling holes and used that very effectively to rotate the shaft under the cutting wheel. It really worked well.

Great idea, I'll have to remember that.

Hobby - do you have a trans cooler? I wanted to utilize that 26mm hole on the back right where the center diff wiring goes in, but I don't think that large of a (metric) hole is going to translate into the AN world very well. I think I am going to have to default to the return line going to the fill plug up on the left main case. I basically did this on my Mustang's differential which operates great, it just makes draining and filling a really big pain.

Funny you should mention that. I just finished my cooler today and will be posting about it later. Since the 08 and newer transmissions do not have internal oil pumps it is much more involved to add a cooler. I did it on my 5 speed and routed the return directly into the rear of the case. You could do a similar setup.

5MT Transaxle Cooler (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?23199-John-s-EZ36R-H6-818R-Build&p=313246&viewfull=1#post313246)

5MT Updated the trans cooler setup (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?23199-John-s-EZ36R-H6-818R-Build&p=315148&viewfull=1#post315148)

Hobby Racer

03-11-2020, 04:35 PM

Hobby - forgot to ask. Since you do not utilize the output shaft did you leave that race in the back of the trans (forward one, not the tail housing). I spent some time on it last night and made no headway (MAP torch and ice). I think the only way I am going to be able to get it out is to weld around the race. That seems to shrink them to the point they basically fall out. The welder is in the garage and the tranny is in the basement.....not sure which is harder to move to the other???? They both weigh a ton.

There is a plastic oil diverter that goes in there on the 07 and older transmissions that have a pressurized oiling systems and its important that it be in place. On the 08 and newer transmissions I am not sure if it is needed and therefore the race can be eliminated IMO.

Hobby Racer

03-11-2020, 08:29 PM

If you stare long enough eventually the parts speak to you...(I assume this happens to all of us right?)

Husband: "My car parts are talking to me"

Wife: "They have pills for that" ;)

jforand

03-11-2020, 09:07 PM

Funny.

I am not thinking that there is anything behind the race in this 08-09. There is an oil hole in the middle, but without the output shaft it sure isn't going to get anything anyway, unless the oil comes from the main case into the tail via this hole.....Again, no longer necessary if that was the case as there is no output shaft bearing there to be lubed.

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I also have a hard time thinking it will come out on its own, but apparently it has happened.

Picking up all the powder coating tomorrow! Should be fun.

Oh, I did not take a picture, but in your cooler thread you spoke about a transmission dip stick. I don't have one, but there is another 'fill plug' on the top right, toward the front end of the main case (looking forward over the tail housing rear to front. I looks pretty cavernous in there and I can see part of the ring gear. It would be where I would put a dip stick if you had me X the spot. I think I will take the cooler return line to the fill port on the left side and this top one will be the new fill location. Really easy in an 818, major pain in a WRX :D

Hobby Racer

03-12-2020, 06:59 AM

I am not thinking that there is anything behind the race in this 08-09. There is an oil hole in the middle, but without the output shaft it sure isn't going to get anything anyway, unless the oil comes from the main case into the tail via this hole.....Again, no longer necessary if that was the case as there is no output shaft bearing there to be lubed.

123967

I also have a hard time thinking it will come out on its own, but apparently it has happened.

After a closer look at your pics, I think your ok to leave the race in place. Since the race and what its pressed into are both steel (cast) the rate of thermal expansion will be the same and the race should not "fall out" during heating and cooling cycles.

Come to think about it, mine is still in also since it holds my plastic diverter in place!

I think I will take the cooler return line to the fill port on the left side and this top one will be the new fill location. Really easy in an 818, major pain in a WRX :D

Sounds like you have a plan. What are you going to for an external pump?

jforand

03-12-2020, 03:09 PM

Well, that is a good question. I bought something very similar to this for the Mustang rear end and have been very happy with it.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G4G7XFY/ref=pe_2313390_233286240_em_1p_0_ti

It is a lot quieter than the Tilton or Tipton that we put on my brother's C5 vette. One for the diff and one for the trans and HOLY COW are they loud. No fear of leaving those babies running. I saw your mention of an oil scavenger pump. If you have something you like please forward and I'll take a look.

Got the chassis today!

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Man working with new stuff is so much more fun. Now I find all the missing stuff such as hardware. Oh, and the "Master Bushing Kit" that apparently does not have rear lower control link bushings????

Hobby Racer

03-12-2020, 08:44 PM

Well, that is a good question. I bought something very similar to this for the Mustang rear end and have been very happy with it.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G4G7XFY/ref=pe_2313390_233286240_em_1p_0_ti

That looks perfect. I used a cheapo eBay pump (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Self-priming-12v-Scavenge-Impellor-Gear-Pump-Diesel-Fuel-Scavenge-Oil-Transfer/122157151528?hash=item1c71223528:g:dcQAAOSwC21diyF Z)
like this. It worked well after I slowed it down from 3.7 GPM to about 1 GPM.

Chassis looks nice. Too bad you didn't mod the frame for the 6 speed before you had it powder coated :(

jforand

03-13-2020, 08:11 AM

Oh wow, 3.7GPM is a ton of flow. I can see how that would be a big problem, especially if you were returning to the tail housing section as you described.

Yes, I noticed the threads on the 6 speed interference fits right after going to the coater. I'll have to make it work. I'm sure there will be other stuff as well. I don't think I have the time or willingness to full construct and test the car only to blow it all apart again for paint. In the end this thing is being built for the track and they just don't stay pretty for all that long.

jforand

03-13-2020, 05:58 PM

Hobby, I would like to see if you would be kind enough to engage on another topic. I am looking at the sheet metal for the front fire wall and things just seem a little weird imo.

124023124024124025124026124027

So I found your post asking about a few panels back in 2017 that no one seemed to respond too. I have all the main front panels identified and in the right locations but I am wondering about a couple things.

First, the large angular gap by the steering column. In the book there is metal structure there and you line up the holes. This structure fills this angular gap and also serves to tell you that you have positioned the panel properly. In the R there is no structure there, just some bracketry you can see on the inside the cockpit view. It there something I should be bolting in here prior to the panels to make sure things line up?

Second, below that angular gap it appears that driver's side center piece that is full height seems to overlap the very first little bottom panel that you put in. It is an odd overlap which is going to make the rivet holes in non regular spots. Should I position all the panels and just drill through the top one and the bottom (first panel) will be whatever it is? The last odd thing about this area is the panel with the steering column hole and I guess that is the brake master cylinder does not actually come left enough to vertically line up. I guess I can trim a little off the car center side on the angles tab so that the driver's side center piece can hang plumb and putt up nicely at the top and overlap on the bottom.

Hopefully that all made sense. It just seems bizzaar. It is supposed to be a firewall of sorts, thought there is really nothing up front. Why the gaps and then the overlaps??? It is also confusing as the manual is for an S and looks different than the R by a lot in this area.

Thanks in advance.

Hobby Racer

03-13-2020, 06:45 PM

I used the Wilwood pedal setup which changes that area of the front firewall. I am in for the evening, I will look at my front firewall tomorrow and get back to you.

Have you seen the 818R supplemental instruction set? It and some other stuff is available from FFR on their parts site here.

http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/instructions/

jforand

03-13-2020, 06:58 PM

No, I hadn’t but was thinking that something must exist. I was just skipping around in the manual and not finding a bunch. The idea of goi out to FFR was beginning to cross my mind. I’ll check it out.

Are you liking your Wilwood pedal box? I think I ran across that and was a bit shocked by the price. I’m sure it is awesome though. I just got hit pretty hard today at the Subaru dealership sourcing rear hubs and bearings. I then decided all of my suspension hardware was pretty crappy and a high percentage is missing. I just ordered new hardware all around for the suspension. Other areas I will be able to go a cheaper route.

Hobby Racer

03-13-2020, 09:23 PM

Are you liking your Wilwood pedal box? I think I ran across that and was a bit shocked by the price. I’m sure it is awesome though.

I can't say enough good things about the pedal setup. Being able to adjust the front to rear bias on the fly and the ability to run different sized master cylinders front and rear make a huge difference in the ability to tune the braking system.

I pieced my Wilwood pedal system together from non FFR sources and it was way cheaper. The components are all the same as they are not specific to FFR, just off the shelf Wilwood stuff.

Bob_n_Cincy

03-14-2020, 02:08 AM

I can't say enough good things about the pedal setup. Being able to adjust the front to rear bias on the fly and the ability to run different sized master cylinders front and rear make a huge difference in the ability to tune the braking system.
I pieced my Wilwood pedal system together from non FFR sources and it was way cheaper. The components are all the same as they are not specific to FFR, just off the shelf Wilwood stuff.

A good starting point is equivalent braking on all 4 wheels.
I went with the Subaru master cylinder. If I upgrade, it will be to the Wilwood pedals with adjustable front-rear balance bar.
Bob

lance corsi

03-14-2020, 06:23 AM

As to your aluminum panel fitment, remember that the chassis is a weldment and as such, a certain amount of warping will be induced, thus negating any precision relative to the panels, which were no doubt laser cut to a proportion generous enough to cover for the discrepancy. You may need to trim some pieces. It’s a kit car.
As for the previously drilled holes, not much you can do there without a lot of hassle unless you simply overlap. Check around someone may have some pieces they decided not to use. Might find one undrilled. I gave all mine to BobnCincy. He may still have one. Otherwise, McMaster Carr sells aluminum sheet.

Hobby Racer

03-14-2020, 10:06 AM

Unfortunately I am not going to be of much help with this one. Since I use the Wilwood pedals my front firewall is completely flat.

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jforand

03-15-2020, 10:07 AM

Another day or two and some more progress accompanied by some answers and some new questions. I did go get the R supplemental printed out. I put together the Koni shocks and it very clearly (in bold in fact) says to have the body side up when installing the shock. So I oriented the spring so the writing was up. Well, it is pretty obvious when you get tot the car they need to be shaft side up as the body does not clear the bottom of the mounting tabs. The are also shown inverted in the pics. Now the spring are upside down not that this matters at all :D

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Ok, so now the question. Did anyone else have fitment issues? I have interference fits on the driver's side with the front arm and the upper rear shock. The tabs are simply too close to the chassis tube. I saw the mention of the casting boss in the manual and have already ground those off. I really do not want to remove any of the cylinder metal holding the bushings as that goes into tension under braking. You can see the passenger side is pretty much perfect.

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I have not determined a best course of action here yet. I really don't like enlarging holes, but that might be the play here. Most all the forces will work to pull the LCA away from the chassis tube. Still pondering and open to ideas.

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Same deal on the upper rear shocks. The Driver's side hits the chassis tube. I had to go bigger on the hole just to get the bolt to go in. It still needs spaced out and unlike the LCA the forces here work to push the shock up into the chassis tube, so a larger hole is not a great solution imo. The holes really need to move outboard a bit. Maybe add a little metal on the inside edge with the mig and redrill....thoguhts?

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Finally I really like the flat fire wall and the Wilwood pedal idea. I am going to yank out the OEM pedals and brake stuff and take a good look at it, but and thinking that the mental commitment is already moving to Wilwood.

Mitch Wright

03-15-2020, 11:09 AM

I have a extra new Wilwood pedal box and one 3/4 master I will be happy to sell. I bought to use on my Ecoboost Falcon swap project but ended up having to put the masters under the dash.

jforand

03-15-2020, 11:41 AM

I could be interested Mitch. I will be honest in saying that I am ground zero on this topic. I have no idea what works with 818R setup. I need to get an education of sorts going. In 5 minutes on Wilwood's site there are tons of options from swing configurations to mechanical advantages. Also that of master cylinders (single, dual, piston size, etc.). I think that the idea is you want single master cylinders that the balance bar spans so that you can adjust bias correct? There would be no way to do that with a dual master other than picking the correct ratios up front or placing some sort of valve in one of the lines to dial out some pressure. I'm pretty sure I know what I want from a track, feel, and adjustability perspective, I just don't know what the 818 requires and the part numbers to get there. At the current time I plan on installing the Cadillac breaks on all four corners.

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Please let me know what you have and opinions as to what works well for the 818 from a tracking perspective. I am positive that there are a bunch of brake discussion out here, but I have yet to move that to front burner.

Thanks,

DSR-3

03-15-2020, 12:03 PM

You will not be sorry if you go the Wilwood pedals direction. Esp. on an R where the adjustability alone is worth it.

Hobby Racer

03-15-2020, 01:59 PM

So I oriented the spring so the writing was up. Well, it is pretty obvious when you get tot the car they need to be shaft side up as the body does not clear the bottom of the mounting tabs. The are also shown inverted in the pics. Now the spring are upside down not that this matters at all :D

Ok, so now the question. Did anyone else have fitment issues?

The R shocks can be mounted in any directions, the S shocks can NOT. And I think we all had to do some clearancing to get things to fit properly :rolleyes:

Finally I really like the flat fire wall and the Wilwood pedal idea. I am going to yank out the OEM pedals and brake stuff and take a good look at it, but and thinking that the mental commitment is already moving to Wilwood.

Go for it, they are excellent. If Mitch can get you a better price, pull the trigger.

I just don't know what the 818 requires and the part numbers to get there. At the current time I plan on installing the Cadillac breaks on all four corners.

I'm the one that blazed the trial putting the Cadillac brakes on all four corners and I have to say its been great. Look back at the first few posts in my build thread for a detailed explanation of the engineering that went into specing out the Cadillac system and master cylinder sizing. I ended up using a 3/4" master cylinder for the front and a 13/16" cylinders for the rear. If you need part numbers let me know and I can dig them out for you.

Brake cylinder sizing (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?23199-John-s-EZ36R-H6-818R-Build&p=264825&viewfull=1#post264825)

Blu

03-15-2020, 04:41 PM

Wilwood pedal mounting plate - I have an extra one if you need it. No charge, just pay for shipping if interested.
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jforand

03-16-2020, 10:26 AM

HAHAHA, it was a bit silent and I thought that was weird. PAGE 2 of the thread, I have hit two pages. I guess I have arrived. I wonder why it does not open tot he most recent page?

Awesome Blu. I shot you a private message.

So I spent a lot of time yesterday doing bushings. Actually a very embarrassing amount of time. I thought they would be easier than ever, but they proved to be to flimsy to hold shape and press in. They just popped out everywhere and I could not get them in, what a sticky greasy mess. I finally came up with tapering a 2 inch pvc pipe. Worked like a champ. Just loaded them in like shot gun shells with one pushing the other.

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I then went out to the chassis excited to hang them. Why do the hole sizes change when you raise up to the lowest ride height setting. They are huge, like made 5/8"s or something, haven't measured them yet. They basically are rendering the new bushings in the existing donor links useless. The factory hardware that fits the bushings will slop all over the place in hole. I'm a bit confused and don't see this mentioned much in the manual or the supplemental. I do see them talking about drilling out the rear knuckle for a 5/8's on the lower lateral links. I know you really want the adjustable arms and I went looking on the FFR site to see it I could order them (basically other versions of the upper forward link and the camber link, but can't find them on the site anywhere. I have seen pics with guys in multiple locations where all but the trailing arm is that gold formed adjustable link that FFR utilizes. Are the heim joints more like the 5/8"s so that larger hardware goes through everything nice and tight?

I have order a cheap set online last night as I thought I could not pass up the price, but I fear I have likely bought something that has the same stock sizing for the hardware....

Hobby,

I will definitely look up your brake stuff. Thanks. I would very much appreciate part numbers if you don't mind. With Blu's plate and Mitch's pedals and 3/4 master, I think piecing it together won't be too hard.

Hobby Racer

03-16-2020, 12:29 PM

I have seen pics with guys in multiple locations where all but the trailing arm is that gold formed adjustable link that FFR utilizes. Are the heim joints more like the 5/8"s so that larger hardware goes through everything nice and tight?
online last night as I thought I could not pass up the price, but I fear I have likely bought something that has the same stock sizing for the hardware....

They are called swedge tubes. I got mine from Speedway Motors (https://www.speedwaymotors.com/shop/swedged-tubes~8-18167). And yes they are 5/8" and everything fits nice and tight.

Hobby,

I will definitely look up your brake stuff. Thanks. I would very much appreciate part numbers if you don't mind. With Blu's plate and Mitch's pedals and 3/4 master, I think piecing it together won't be too hard.

Looks like you'll have everything except for two extra master cylinders.

jforand

03-16-2020, 01:42 PM

Man, you have been great with the replies and info.

I did measure the holes and they look to be 5/8ths (once I drill out the powder coating). I also went to Speedway and the pics look identical to what came with the kit. They must be the supplier.

4 - RH Chromoly heim joints 5/8-18 with a 5/8 hole
4 - LH Chromoly heim joints 5/8-18 with a 5/8 hole
4 - 13" Swedge tubes -OR- 13.5"?????
1 - Kit of 12 5/8 jam nuts 6 LH/6 RH

Looks to total 235.

I measured the OEM links and they come in at 16.25 center to center. There is a note out on speedway that says two heims "halfway" threaded add about 3" to tube length. When measuring on the ones in the garage it appears that they add 3" when ALL the way threaded in. So 13" (tube) + 3" (heims) = 16" (0.25 shorter than OEM) with the threads all the way in. Did you go with 13" tubes or the 13.5"? I would obviously like as much threaded in as possible. I suppose I could dial out the excess camber with the 13.5" tubes by lengthening the top a bit assuming there is enough adjustment there.

I'll wait to hit the order button. I need to slow down my trigger finger anyway. I like turning the wrenches more than the hunt for the parts :D

Hindsight

03-16-2020, 03:24 PM

Welcome to the club. I'm in Atlanta and while I sold my 818 already, I'm more than happy to provide any input/advice. I tracked mine quite a bit and drove it on the street a lot too.

jforand

03-16-2020, 04:00 PM

Thanks Hindsight. I have read a decent amount of your stuff and I believe that your car might actually be up for sale again here. I sent the link to a friend who I strongly urged to buy it.

I new the car was for sale in Atlanta, but I did not realize you were also in Atlanta. Once this Covid 19 thing calms down we'll have to figure out how to meet up.

Hobby Racer

03-16-2020, 06:03 PM

Man, you have been great with the replies and info.

No problem. This forum has helped me many times, just giving back.

Did you go with 13" tubes or the 13.5"? I would obviously like as much threaded in as possible. I suppose I could dial out the excess camber with the 13.5" tubes by lengthening the top a bit assuming there is enough adjustment there.

I went with 12" tubes and you can see there is room to use longer ones. I would go with 13" if they are available.

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jforand

03-16-2020, 06:21 PM

Hobby Racer

03-16-2020, 06:56 PM

Wow, 12” tubes. That is a surprise. Do you know the rear camber you are running. I realize it is totally different, but I settled on -2.5 on the back of my Mustang with full race slicks. I am imagining that this light of a car will require less. Assuming your upper arm is fairly fairly adjusted out as well.

Last season I ran -2.5 degrees with 200 tread wear street tires. This year I will increase it to -3.0 degrees with Hoosier A7's. These cars can pull serious G's in the corners!

jforand

03-17-2020, 08:14 AM

Looking forward to it!

It is a fine balance. Not sure about you, but I align the car for the best tire wear and longevity, not ultimate lap time (there is a difference). They might get slipperier, but I am not chasing trophies with a sponsor. I run them until there is no rubber. I bought a new set of R7s for the Mustang a couple years back and killed the inside shoulders up front at Summit Point Main circuit. Very expensive lesson. For the most part I can run -3.5 up front and -2.5 in the rear and it works very well everywhere. Summit Main is a short, fast, 12 turn track with only two real lefts that wear rubber. It is pretty brutally unilateral on the rubber. For tire preservation you really want to consider a unilateral setup and rotate your tires, where as, Road Atlanta is perfectly even for me. I can run three straight days and not rotate.

I have been running the Pirelli scrubs the last two years. At 125-150 a tire they were way cheaper than the 1700-1800 set of Hoosiers. Very decent life if you pay attention tot he alignment.

Hindsight

03-17-2020, 08:15 AM

jforand

03-18-2020, 09:47 AM

Making progress on the mockup. Right now I am just hanging stuff to see how it all works. The big issue is sorting through the hardware finding the right diameters and lengths and sourcing what I do not.

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I still have the rear lower lateral links to go. I have ordered adjustable swedge links with the help of Hobby Racer (Thanks man!). Those should be here tomorrow along with the a hardware purchase from McMaster Carr. So currently the only OEM link is the trailing arm. I must say that the rear hub is very toed out which will be fixed by pushing out the bottom/back with the lateral links. The issue I see is that ALL of the corrective motion goes against the happy place on the forward trailing arm bushing. I actually really am not thinking canting of the bushing (to the degree I think will be necessary) is a good idea or will work out well at all in the long run. I know I have seen people discuss portions of this. It usually comes in the form of not being able to install the rear of the trailing arm on the knuckle bushing due to misalignment. I was able to install that easily without the laterals in yet.

I am going to wait and reserve judgement until I get things closer to completion and truly get an idea of what an alignment might look like. My gut is kid of thinking a large monoball up there is going to work best.

Hobby, I can see it that pic you sent of the laterals that you are indeed running the OEM trailing arm. Did you notice misalignment on the front end? I guess one other way to fix it would be to cut the welds at the front of the arm, realign the angles, and burn it back it place.....

Below is a quick mock up of the OEM clutch and brake pedals. I spent time sorting through the giant Maxwell House coffee can of all the donor nuts and bolts. I believe I found the ones that served this purpose. Anyway, a few of you have helped me down the road of thinking that Wilwood is a much better option for several reasons. These will likely be coming back out to make room for the Wilwood setup.

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jforand

03-18-2020, 10:15 AM

I apologize for all the pics always being oriented wrong. It appears the forum always rotates them counterclockwise tot he landscape orientation. I will try to take them differently so that I don't cause any neck issues for anyone.

Hobby Racer

03-18-2020, 11:58 AM

Hobby, I can see it that pic you sent of the laterals that you are indeed running the OEM trailing arm. Did you notice misalignment on the front end? I guess one other way to fix it would be to cut the welds at the front of the arm, realign the angles, and burn it back it place.....

It did take some persuasion to get this in place. I have always thought of replacing the trailing arms with something like these aftermarket (https://www.ebay.com/itm/For-93-07-Subaru-Wrx-Sti-Ej20-Ej25-Turbo-Adjustable-Steel-Trailing-Arm-Pair-Blue/312533923492?hash=item48c47936a4:g:kDgAAOSwoLFeYA0 3) ones for 1) a better fit and 2) more tire clearance.

jforand

03-18-2020, 01:15 PM

Wow those are pretty cheap right now. Ugh, my purchase finger is getting itchy already.

They will believe solve all the issues that I currently have with the various misalignments. They don't give any measurements so it is tough to tell if they will give more tire/wheel clearance. I have seen the pics with very little clearance there. It would be nice to know if these kill two birds with one stone.

It is interesting that there are three nuts down at the monoball end. One is likely the threaded fitting insert and another the jamb nut. Do you think the middle one is another threaded insert that you can use to gain addition length adjustment over just the monoball shaft threads?

Mitch Wright

03-18-2020, 01:55 PM

I made up some rear trailing arms using steel swedged tubes Speedway.124278 they gave me plenty of extra space to run a 265/35X18 BFG R1 on the rear.

jforand

03-18-2020, 07:00 PM

Those are nice Mitch. I have the lower lateral links showing up tomorrow from Speedway. I went ahead and hit the buy button on some trailing links from Ebay. Hobby put a link up there in post#56. I figured it would be hard to go that wrong for 68 bucks. I ended up spending 250 on the four laterals. Maybe I can make a sort of modern art tree with my surplus of links :D

jforand

03-18-2020, 10:01 PM

Hobby,

I just made the realization that me super awesome CNC machined and anodized rear caliper mounts for the ATS brakes are too small :( um, and I actually pressed the hibs in prior to getting brackets on there double :( I hope I can get them back out without destroying a zero mileage bearing..... I did not go so well for the OEM ones coming out.

I know you made your own brackets and have seen the page. I had a hard time determining what you used in your 4 pics. It looked like some sort of C channel and you welded some ears on it. What was the thickness of your material, no issues is the strength of your choice? I further assume you worked it out so no spacer was required to center the rotor in the caliper. I also saw the someone Mechie3 indicated back in 2017 that several people had asked him to make brackets. Do you know if anyone ever did?

What a bummer, I was really looking to bolt these on. I guess they are for a non STI. Smaller overall center hole and a smaller 4 bolt circle to secure it to the knuckle. Is there a better way to offer these up to anyone who has a non STI knuckle than the for sale page? That thing is a total yard sale, I guess decent if you were building a Cobra.

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Hobby Racer

03-19-2020, 06:49 AM

Hobby,

I know you made your own brackets and have seen the page. I had a hard time determining what you used in your 4 pics. It looked like some sort of C channel and you welded some ears on it. What was the thickness of your material, no issues is the strength of your choice? I further assume you worked it out so no spacer was required to center the rotor in the caliper. I also saw the someone Mechie3 indicated back in 2017 that several people had asked him to make brackets. Do you know if anyone ever did?

I used 3/16" steel for the backing plate and 1/4" steel for the ears. The backing plate had curved edges, but that was only because the piece of scrap I had in the shop was shaped like that :D I'm sure it adds some strength but it is not needed as there are no bending loads, only radial. As you indicated the thickness and placement were chosen to avoid using spacers to center the caliper. The brackets have proven more than strong enough so I would just make them out of steel like I did, much easier and cheaper. Some one did make brackets for sale but they were for WRX hubs (not STI).

What a bummer, I was really looking to bolt these on. I guess they are for a non STI. Smaller overall center hole and a smaller 4 bolt circle to secure it to the knuckle. Is there a better way to offer these up to anyone who has a non STI knuckle than the for sale page? That thing is a total yard sale, I guess decent if you were building a Cobra.

I've had good luck selling some 818 stuff here. There really is no other place that will be interested in 818 specific parts. Try the classified section and a post in the Suspension, Steering and Brakes section as some people only look in the 818 sections.

Ajzride

03-19-2020, 01:20 PM

I made my custom brackets out of 1/4 steel as well, works great.

jforand

03-19-2020, 09:24 PM

Good to hear. I got my swedge links in and got them on the car. Still need the correct spacers to keep them centered. Of course I bought the big bolt on the bottom for the full length of the knuckle and two OEM links.....The swedge links are much narrower. Looks like I'll be going back in for more hardware.

Managed to get the front Brembos on (still need rotors).

I don't suppose anyone has a drawing of the bracket with dimensions do you? I can get it figured out if you don't, but will need to get some rotors first. I think I am going to junk the donor steering rack as well. It does not feel good when you attempt to turn it at all. Not to mention that trying to clean it up isn't worth it when I have seen new ones for 100 bucks. This will also give me a couple rod ends that I can fab the bump steer kit out of.

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Hobby Racer

03-20-2020, 06:44 AM

Your making good progress. I really enjoy the build process, seems like you do as well.

I don't have drawings for the brackets though. I just fabricated them up on the fly, sorry.

jforand

03-20-2020, 08:28 AM

Thanks Hobby, I do enjoy the build. That is by far my favorite part over the research and part sourcing. I think I need an intern to track all of this stuff down. The delays kill me, not the "crap, this doesn't work" moments and problem solving, just the having to wait a week for the solution to roll in.

I need to sit back with the manual and just read it a bit no to make sure I am not messing up any order of operations. I would like to get sheet metal squared away, but a lot of it is not painted. In fact, most of the painted parts I won't be using. The three fire wall pieces that get replaced by the Wilwood pedals. Blu was mailing that bracket yesterday (thanks Blu). So that will need coated, the new firewall sheet metal will need to be sorted (FFR or fabricate then coat). I see mention of intrusion panels on the sides. Yep, again I have those side sheets coated, but if I go with upgraded for intrusion they will be looking pretty over in the corner. Was thinking about trying to get a lot of the the metal in, drilled, and then send it off for coating.

I am also thinking about turning focus to the engine and transmission. As you have seen the trans is basically done. I have a short block that is supposed to be forged internals and a long block for parts in a mostly torn down state. I was thinking about just throwing the long block together to get the final form so that I can bolt it to the trans and try positioning it in the car. I want to make sure everything is good to go before I cut into the frame for the 6 speed mods.

It seems that most people like the Group N mounts. I know I need to mount a head back on the long block. I will probably just throw a rag in there for a head gasket to protect the surfaces. Not sticking a new head gasket in just for the mock up. I don't think I recall seeing engine hardware like head bolts, bell housing bolts and such. I guess the search begins.

I also need to source a good engine manual.

Mitch Wright

03-20-2020, 10:56 AM

If the car is track only I suggest the Cusco mounts for the engine and trans.

LOL In my typical fashion I went the manual before my kit arrived then only used it for reference. When I was building much of the manual pertained to the R.

STiPWRD

03-20-2020, 01:22 PM

PM me your email and I'll send you the subaru factory service manual. It had all the necessary information when I was building my motor.

jforand

03-20-2020, 03:40 PM

I did attempt to go through the manual a bit at first. I then started into the car a got a bit frustrated that the manual was not applying very well to the R. I then got a bit frustrated that a lot of the OEM parts and hardware get the bounce when you talk about the R. Then Hobby Racer was polite enough to ask if I knew about the R supplemental....say what? SO I went and got that downloaded. I have found a bit of conflicting info.

All in all, I think it is really just getting into it and start building. I just want to avoid massive order-of-operation missteps.

I have been trying to study up on the forum on the bump steer solutions. I think the commercially available kits such as the Baer all seem to fail short on the amount of extension needed.

FFRSpec72
Had posted this a while back. I think I like this solution, though I think it might fall a little short as well? I really think the taper needs to be maintained for ultimate strength and rigidity. The through bolt solutions don't do that and I am having a tough time getting onboard with that plan.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Adjustable-Tie-Rod-Adapter-Stud-to-Heim,3333.html?OriginalQuery=91636055PINTO
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Search?query=Steel+Control+Arm+Spacer%2C+5%2F8+Inc h+x+1+Inch
https://www.racecraft.com/bumpsteer-sleeves-c-92_539_540/3-12-bumpsteer-sleeves-14mm-x-15-rh-x-5818-lh-p-1697.html
https://steinjager.com/shop/index.php?route=product/search&search=J0041201

FFRSpec72 ended up "machining the taper" a bit. I was thinking that the Subaru taper fits 'inside' the Pinto taper, meaning if you buy a 7 degree ream you can easily ream the taper to exactly fit the Pinto stud. In other words, the Pinto hole is larger than the Subaru's so there is metal that can be cut away to establish the Pinto's specifications.

STiPWRD

03-20-2020, 04:27 PM

idf

03-20-2020, 04:47 PM

I used the same bumpsteer setup as FFRSpec72. I had a machinist turn down the pinto tapers for me (keeping the angle) and it worked out fine. In my experience, reamers are more of a "finishing tool" so I'm not sure if one will be able to remove enough material from the Subaru taper. But it's worth a shot.
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I also had the Pinto tapers turned down and am happy with the result. I would not be afraid of the through bolt approach either. My formula Ford is set up this way, as are many others, with good results.

jforand

03-20-2020, 05:19 PM

idf

03-21-2020, 07:50 AM

This is good news that it seems to be working for people. Are you all running R's?

STiPWRD, when you say "keeping the angle" you don't mean exactly the same angle do you, just keeping a taper. By my measurements it would need to be turned down about 0.03" on the fat end and 0.06 on the skinny end which would obviously change the angle. Also did both of you gentlemen go with the revised 3.5" sleeves or something longer?

My car is an S. I had the machinist turn the Pinto taper down to match the Subaru taper. I don't recall the dimensions, but think I gave the machinist a Subaru rod end to match. I used the Baer sleeves (guess why I happened to have them), which are 3 3/4 in long.

Hobby Racer

03-21-2020, 11:35 AM

I have been trying to study up on the forum on the bump steer solutions. ... I really think the taper needs to be maintained for ultimate strength and rigidity. The through bolt solutions don't do that and I am having a tough time getting onboard with that plan.

Don't fear the straight thru solutions. I used a straight thru Pinto spindle bump steer kit from Speedway Motors. I really liked the wide conical base that meets up with the spindle arm and then tappers down.

Speedway Motors Pinto Kit (Straight Thru) (https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Pinto-Spindle-Bump-Steer-Correction-Kit,52425.html)

jforand

03-21-2020, 12:18 PM

Ok, I think I do like that solution as it widens the base making the internal taper less necessary. It helps take the bending moment off the bolt and places it on the conical spacer with the bolt simply supplying the compressive force as intended. The other ting I like about this is that you can easily change out the bolt length and add/remove spacers as necessary to dial it in. The other solutions are fixed.

What tubes did you use? I have seen talk of people with non opposed LH/RH threads. Definitely want to be able to adjust with just the jamb nuts. FFRSpec72’s sure I listed above seems to be the source. As with the rear suspension I want to make sure that there is ample thread engagement.

Haha, I took a front wheel out there today to check fitment and had a small panic. Radially it is perfect, backspace wise not so much. I even have the 3mm spacer in from the CTSV kit. I grabbed the spacer from the other side and it still wasn’t close......then I realized that a rotor would be very helpful in spacing things out :D. I need to get those ordered. It does appear that it will be close. I think there might be a bit of a spacer in the end.

I learning a bit more about the Subaru world I just realized that you have crammed a 6 cylinder in your car. I saw the designation and your notching the gram and such, but never knew it was a 6. I was wondering why you seemed to be the only guy who had to do this. Kind of funny.

jforand

03-21-2020, 12:38 PM

Thanks for the response IDF. I wish I had access to a decent machine shop, that has basically all dried up to my knowledge. I had a set of heads done for a 57 T bird 10 years ago that was really sketchy. I had to threaten to walk out with them in whatever state they were in. Just a guy barely scraping by. I had another place go through the block and they were pretty good, but the shop closed its doors.

Not that I would wish this on anyone, but it is good to know I am not the only one ordering stuff that doesn't entirely pan out!

jforand

03-21-2020, 12:41 PM

Hobby Racer

03-21-2020, 06:09 PM

Ok, I think I do like that solution as it widens the base making the internal taper less necessary. It helps take the bending moment off the bolt and places it on the conical spacer with the bolt simply supplying the compressive force as intended. The other ting I like about this is that you can easily change out the bolt length and add/remove spacers as necessary to dial it in. The other solutions are fixed.

That's why I went with it!

What tubes did you use? I have seen talk of people with non opposed LH/RH threads.

I used the factory tie rod ends and machined the ends to accept heim joint rod ends.

Haha, I took a front wheel out there today to check fitment and had a small panic. Radially it is perfect, backspace wise not so much. I even have the 3mm spacer in from the CTSV kit. I grabbed the spacer from the other side and it still wasn’t close......then I realized that a rotor would be very helpful in spacing things out :D. I need to get those ordered. It does appear that it will be close. I think there might be a bit of a spacer in the end.

If you are using the FFR wheels you will need a 5mm spacer on the front.

I learning a bit more about the Subaru world I just realized that you have crammed a 6 cylinder in your car. I saw the designation and your notching the gram and such, but never knew it was a 6. I was wondering why you seemed to be the only guy who had to do this. Kind of funny.
Yah, I think I'm the only one with a running 3.6 liter 6 cylinder out there. There are a about a half dozen 3.0 liter 6 cylinder installs done though.

Hobby Racer

03-21-2020, 06:24 PM

Mitch,

I checked out the Cusco mounts you suggested. They look pretty good. I need to do a big of research as I don't think the trans mount in the '04 inclusive kit works with an 08-09 6MT. I might have to get the engine mounts and then figure out the right trans mount separately.

You might want to consider making your own mounts so you can lower the tail of the transmission as much as possible. The angle that the engine trans combo sits at with the stock mounts is tilted too far forward. This has negative implications on the oiling system for the engine and transmission. You want the engine to be as level as possible when sitting in the chassis.

My custom 6 speed transmission mount (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?23199-John-s-EZ36R-H6-818R-Build&p=395868&viewfull=1#post395868)

jforand

03-21-2020, 09:15 PM

I had seen talk about the angle of the engine. I think the first thing I am going to do is drop it in there on some 2x4 blocks and survey the situation. I need to get things assembled a bit before I can start on this part.

On your 5mm spacer....the ctsv swap has a 3mm that is supposed to go behind the rotor. Are you running that and then a 5mm between the wheel and the rotor so there would be a total of 8ish (2 spacers) on each wheel? I ordered some DBA rotors today so I’ll get a first hand look soon. I love how KNS starts you on your order history page with all the pricing......yikes it adds up over time!

I got those trailing arms today. I think they are pretty decent, especially for 68 bucks. That third nut is essentially a turn buckle type adjustment. Just loosen the jamb nuts and you can extend or shorten the arm. Everything on the driver’s side of my car is tight. I had to shave down the spacer bushings about a 16th off each side to get it to fit. Passenger side was perfect. I’ll get a pic tomorrow.

Hobby Racer

03-22-2020, 06:39 AM

I had seen talk about the angle of the engine. I think the first thing I am going to do is drop it in there on some 2x4 blocks and survey the situation. I need to get things assembled a bit before I can start on this part.

That is a good idea. You are going with the normal H4 2.5L right?

On your 5mm spacer....the ctsv swap has a 3mm that is supposed to go behind the rotor. Are you running that and then a 5mm between the wheel and the rotor so there would be a total of 8ish (2 spacers) on each wheel? I ordered some DBA rotors today so I’ll get a first hand look soon. I love how KNS starts you on your order history page with all the pricing......yikes it adds up over time!

I'll have to check behind the rotor today. I can not remember If I needed a spacer there or not.

jforand

03-22-2020, 09:45 AM

I believe that to be the case Hobby. I have a short block that will be the base of the build that is cast as an EJ25 B25C 704. It will be getting all the other stuff off of an EJ25 B25c 702. When I look inside the short block it appears to have upgraded internals. Pistons have a P/N of 291061 and a secondary number of 815032. I have not tried to look these up yet. The rods are of an H beam design and I cannot see any markings other that what appears to be a lot number of sorts on the crank end.

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I don't know if you have tried it, but oven cleaner and a scrub brush worked great to clean up the block. You have to be a bit careful as it does eat aluminum so you don't want to leave it on long. You end up with a bit of a darker gray, but it is clean.

Here is a couple pics of those trailing arms.

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jforand

03-22-2020, 10:09 AM

It looks like the pistons are JE

https://www.jepistons.com/pistons-291061

I think the roads are likely Eagle Standard forged

https://www.eaglerod.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=32

It does appear that there is a decent amount of smoothing on the cylinder walls and the slightest bit of linear scraping. I wondering if it makes sense to pull the pistons, hone, and re-ring. I gotta say I am not really looking for machine shop bills here. I don't really know of any in the Atlanta area. The idea would be just a quick bottle honing to resurface, but not appreciable resize.

Thoughts?

STiPWRD

03-23-2020, 10:16 AM

jforand

03-23-2020, 02:21 PM

I also have JE pistons but mine are meant to work with the wrx heads (P/N: 291059), which have a smaller combustion chamber. So JE increases piston volume to -25.50 cc to bring the compression ratio back down. Your JE pistons (291061) have a volume of -16.50 cc, so they're probably meant to go with sti heads. You also have the standard bore (99.50mm), which means your block has not been over-bored yet.

Do you have any pictures of the scraping? Replacing piston rings and verifying dimensions isn't too much of a pain with a bit of research. It's good insurance but does take time..

A shot from each cylinder. Two are a bit worse than the other two. All in all I would not say anything is bad. You can't feel anything with a finger nail.

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Shot of the piston top

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And then a couple of the head

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So as I understand it (not well, i assure you) the D25 heads have the more hemisherical chamber and are smaller in volume (roughly 51cc) from the preceding B25 heads. In other words, to keep the compression ratio in check you would want a deeper piston to count the shallower chamber. It would appear that I have a shallow combustion chamber and a shallow piston making for a higher compression ratio. How do I know this combo will work? It seems to not be jiving at this time. I am not aware of how the heads worked. I thought the B25 was a previous generation and and the D25 took over. You seem to be indicating that one came on the WRX and the other on the STI.

Yes, I am sitting at the standard bore of 3.918" I think which works out to be 99.517mm. I spent some time on JE's website trying to find a set of rings and wow was that difficult. If I am to buy from them I guess I will be calling them.

As I bet you can tell the head got knocked around a bit off the motor. There is a bit of a gash in a couple places, one that traverses a gasket seal :mad: and if you look closely the ground prong on the one spark plug is bent to the side of the electrode.

STiPWRD

03-23-2020, 03:14 PM

jforand

03-23-2020, 03:57 PM

Those cylinder bores don't look too bad at all, especially if smooth to the finger nail. The deck surfaces on the block and heads just need a good cleaning and checked for flatness. Depending on any damage to the sealing surfaces or out-of-tolerance flatness, they may need to be resurfaced. Sorry, I'm not familiar with the differences b/w the B25 and D25 heads.

I might just run it the way it is and see what happens. I also might try to determine what a ring set will look like from JE. I am really on the fence. I have done this before on an engine with a simple light bottle hone and new rings. If the cost isn't ridiculous and I have a pretty good chance of reusing the ARP rod bolts (they are supposed to be reusable) then I might go for it. I just really want to be assembling, not disassembling :D

There are ways to measure compression ratio if you're not sure of your head/piston combo. The combustion chamber in the heads and the displacement volume in the block can be filled with liquid and the volume difference can be compared b/w the top and bottom of the stroke. Take the head gasket thickness into account and it's possible to calculate compression ratio. I'd check youtube and there was also a powerblock episode on this.

I have see this episode you speak of. They siliconed a clear plate across the combustion chamber and metered in colored liquid until they were perfectly filled (no air/no extra water). The piston would be the same deal while the cylinder/head gasket is just math.

Running wrx heads with an STI block isn't OEM but many have done this including myself. It's referred to as a hybrid setup because your taking heads meant for a 2.0L and putting them on a 2.5L shortblock. This is commonly done to allow wrx owners to easily increase displacement without having to drastically change connections to the cylinder heads, ECU, etc. (my donor was a 2002 wrx). JE makes the 291059 piston precisely for this "hybrid setup." Sorry, didn't mean to cause confusion but thought I'd bring it up since you have aftermarket pistons. Chances are very likely that your parts should all be compatible.

So is the WRX a 2.0L while the STI bumped up to a 2.5L Turbo?

jforand

03-23-2020, 08:03 PM

STiPWRD, I was looking through the engine manual and for the life of me I cannot find a section that talks about attaching the heads to the short block. Is it just me or is it missing? There has got to be a section for that. Head bolts, torque values and sequence. Seems like everything else is in there.

STiPWRD

03-24-2020, 10:45 AM

So is the WRX a 2.0L while the STI bumped up to a 2.5L Turbo?
From 02-05, the wrx was a 2.0L (EJ205), from 06-07 I think it went up to 2.5L (EJ255)
The USDM sti came out in 04 and has kept the 2.5L (EJ257)
Both the wrx and sti had turbos

STiPWRD, I was looking through the engine manual and for the life of me I cannot find a section that talks about attaching the heads to the short block. Is it just me or is it missing? There has got to be a section for that. Head bolts, torque values and sequence. Seems like everything else is in there.
Are you looking in the 04 sti FSM?
Check in the Engine Section/Mechanical/General description.pdf, pg. 7 of 20.
This is the assembly drawing of the cylinder head and cam shafts, which shows the cylinder head bolts (item #11)
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The OEM torque spec and sequence is in the cylinder head assembly pdf file in the same Mechanical directory
Although if you have ARP head bolts, I would use the torque spec provided by ARP since those are rated to a higher strength than the OEM bolts.

jforand

03-24-2020, 11:32 AM

I did manage to find the section in the Cylinder Head section. I looked right past it about 7 times. My apologies. Thanks for pointing it out.

Yes, I am planning on using ARP studs and will use their numbers.

jforand

03-24-2020, 07:50 PM

A bit of progress and some unfortunate learning tonight.

First, I was able to press the rear hub back apart and not harm the bearing at all. One inner seal bit the dust which did not really have to, a bit of a bummer but far better than a bearing. With the hub off I was about to get a bracket template going out of some 1/4 plywood. I think it is pretty close. When the rotors get here tomorrow I will be able to square it all away and start making it out of the final material. I think I would like to shoot for 1/4" plate steel. It appears at this time that the mounting face of the caliper needs to be flush with the mounting surface on the knuckle. This makes it pretty easy. What ever material is bolted on can simple be welded to the back of that bracket to reestablish the datum.

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Second, I decided to throw in the donor steering wheel. Yes, yes, the para-cord wrap is very nice and something I might have to transfer to the actual wheel :D With the wheel all the way down and probably 1.5" of spacers I think it is approaching a fairly comfortable position.

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I can tell everyone, they do not make these cars for 6'2" to 6'3" people. I will need to have the seat all the way up against the tank. I will further need the pedals as far forward as possible. Finally, I think I will be needing to raise the roll bar up a decent amount. I tried the broom stick test. I believe that your head needs to be below a straight line from the top of the roll bar to the top of the front roll bar. Well, the tape (did not have a long enough broom stick) is sitting right on my head without a helmet. I would further assume that you really want a couple inches there for margin. I think it was Blu that just talked about all the frame modifications and having to raise the roll bar 6". I believe that I will be following in his foot steps. Kind of a bummer, but you have to do what you have to do.

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STiPWRD

03-25-2020, 06:40 AM

There are a few things you could try to lower yourself in there:
1. Lower the seat closer to the frame, rework the brackets
2. Find a thinner fixed back seat
3. Move the bottom of the seat further back by using a different fuel tank

Boyd makes a nice tank that's specifically meant to give you more leg room.
https://fueltankparts.com/products/factory-five-818-10-gallon-gas-tank-with-aeromotive-stealth-340-pump
Some 818 builders have also put a custom fuel cell in the front and some R builders have put a fuel cell in the passenger seat area.

I'm 6'2" and after I sat in my 818 the first time I knew I had to make some of these mods, now I fit pretty good. I also used a smaller steering wheel for more knee room.

jforand

03-25-2020, 08:07 AM

There are a few things you could try to lower yourself in there:
1. Lower the seat closer to the frame, rework the brackets
2. Find a thinner fixed back seat
3. Move the bottom of the seat further back by using a different fuel tank

Thanks for the ideas. I did a bit of reading on this last night. I think the best order of operations is going to be get the pedals in, which is in progress. I am going with the Wilwood pedal box. I think I am going to work on getting those set back about 2 inches. Mitch Wright is selling me an extra set and he accomplished the exact same thing on his. Then I think I need to determine the seat I am going to run. I can then work on the spacing as the pedals will be optimized. The steering rack should probably work in at this time as well. I was hoping to not have to mess with the fuel tank and or rear firewall, but I guess we'll see as I start to lock stuff in.

At the current time I had no brackets on whatever cheap seat came with the car/parts I picked up. It is a fiberglass bucket and no mounting brackets whatsoever. I simply threw it on the floor of the chassis. It is not going to get lower unless I cut into the X bracing on the bottom of the chassis and I can't see that being a very good idea. There needs to be something there and it would only gain me a half inch maybe.

The incline of the seat is also something that I was a bit worried about. I know the shapes will change with the brands and models, but here with the butt all the way back to where the FFR firewall will be results in a very upright seating posture. I think anymore would be very uncomfortable. In addition, the more vertical I get the worse the broom stick gets and I already violate that.

Boyd makes a nice tank that's specifically meant to give you more leg room.
https://fueltankparts.com/products/factory-five-818-10-gallon-gas-tank-with-aeromotive-stealth-340-pump
Some 818 builders have also put a custom fuel cell in the front and some R builders have put a fuel cell in the passenger seat area.

I'm 6'2" and after I sat in my 818 the first time I knew I had to make some of these mods, now I fit pretty good. I also used a smaller steering wheel for more knee room.

I had seen mention of the Boyd tank several times. Thank you for forwarding the link. It looks interesting. I do really hope I don't have to augment any of that thought. Seems to me a front fuel cell would really mess with the weight and balance as you burn fuel. Roughly 60 pounds of fuel in the nose coming, going, and sloshing. I really like the idea of that being mid ship. I have seen the passenger tank as well. I am pretty sure I have at least one daughter that will kill me if there is not a passenger seat in this car!!!!

Oh, on the steering wheel/column. I am about 100% certain that the OEM rack will not be used. I think I will be going with a race oriented simple column with a detachable wheel of a smaller diameter.

jforand

03-25-2020, 07:25 PM

Well, it almost pains me as a mechanical engineer to put this up here, but I thought it was kind of humorous. It by no means is up to professional par! This is the rear caliper bracket that I came up with for the ATS-V Cadillac Brembos on all four corners. A very tough part to measure well. I am going to try to get this in CAD and see how much a water jet place will charge to cut them out. I think they can do cardboard as well (most likely by laser) so it might make sense to have them do that first, make any tweaks, and then turn out the real McCoy.

The paper 'ear' tab will overlap the wooden piece and be welded on all available interfaces.

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Ajzride

03-25-2020, 08:16 PM

3D print a test one yourself rather than getting a cardboard one cut. You will find yourself able to make test parts for anything you want laser cut and then you will be able to make dozens of custom brackets and spacers for the build. Well worth the investment. I just upgraded my 3D printer to expand my capabilities for this build.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Creality-Ender-3-3D-Printer-MK8-High-precision-220x220x250mm-Resume-PLA-Filament/223097743412?epid=9024227745&hash=item33f1a96834:g:nwEAAOSwdJJbba2W

jforand

03-26-2020, 09:13 AM

That is a very interesting idea. Now that you mention it I have seen some of your posts concerning 3D printing. I'll have to go do a search and see if I can find your stuff. 199 is pretty ridiculous cheap! Is the link the one you upgraded to or did you go bigger/better. My brother in law actually has one (for a while now) and I think it was a lot more expensive in the past.

I get the testing, but what areas have you been able to get away with the printed product as the final piece?

Ajzride

03-26-2020, 10:20 AM

That link I sent you is something in-between what I had, and what I have now. It's the same size as my 5 year old one, but a lot higher quality, and with way more options. My new is crazy big (400mm x 400mm x 700mm) because I'm going to be 3D printing the bucks for my custom body panels with it (they will be printed in pieces, glued together, smoothed, and have a mold made from them).

Where can you use 3D printed parts? Pretty much any non-stressful bracket not in the engine bay. I made a bracket for my cruise control switch, my steering column lowering and recessing, I'm making brackets to hold my keyless entry to the column, making brackets to mount the factory dash to the frame. I'll make brackets to hold the body panels to the frame, I'll make brackets to for seat belt guides, I even plan to 3D print new headlight buckets (smooth then and wrap in Carbon Fiber). Over on the SLC forum there is a guy who 3D printed a really slick engine cover and wrapped in in carbon fiber.

Printing with PETG is just as cheap as PLA, but it won't soften until over 100C, which is 212F, so it will keep its strength and shape even in the Georgia heat, just keep it away from the headers.

jforand

04-04-2020, 06:33 PM

I really need to dial out some of the A.D.D. I have going on here. I can't seems to settle down and stick with one area.

I set out to come up with a Rear Caliper Bracket solution for mounting the Cadillac brakes on the rear. I have a set of the nicely machined aluminum ones that were for sales a while back, but they don't work on the STI hub. So after coming up with the solution up in Post #93 I started to run into big issues getting it accurately dimensioned. I really did not want to spend money on a water jet just to have to grind away. and enlarge holes and such. So I went out and downloaded Fusion 360 and started playing. This is what I came up with and am currently going out for pricing. We'll see where it come in at. Really would like to get these back and on the car as I have the rear hubs pressed out and open greased up bearings in bags just waiting to get damaged or go for a roll in the dirt!

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I also got a Wilwood pedal box in the mail the other day (thanks Mitch). In looking at how to squeeze myself into the car (6'3") I have been pondering a lot. I was considering raising the roll bar, but that still leaves a VERY vertical seating position that I am not happy with. I really think that Zach34 has this worked out in the best manner for my needs. I finally bit the bullet and cut into the new powder coating.

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Need to source metal to start fab'ing the rework.

Also took the opportunity to press in some new ARP wheel lugs 100-7717 (well, 3 hubs). I went ahead and swapped out to the Mitsubishi lugs that have a more course thread.

Also dove into the steering rack and the bump steer issue. I have decided to go with the straight through 5/8" bolt option and the conical spacer. I do feel that it is very important to have a proper and well toleranced hole. As such, I have a 0.0005 undersized pilot reamer on order. This should work nicely to get a good fit. Might need to put some heat to it to get it in there, but that is perfect in my opinion.

Finally, I have started to get things in order to start working my way through build the engine. Full gasket kit, piston rings, ARP studs, probably and oil pump. Once the valve spring compressor gets here I will be tearing down the heads. I also have a hone on order and a set of rings standing by.

lsfourwheeler

04-07-2020, 09:22 AM

jforand

04-07-2020, 06:01 PM

If you need any engine parts, I have a EJ25 block with EJ20 heads available for parts. It's got the JE Hybrid pistons. Engine has like zero miles because it appears to have spun a rod bearing on the dyno.

Thanks for the offer. I'll keep it in mind. I think I have what I need at this time. I will be refreshing my short block with new JE rings on the Forged JE pistons. It has forged rods as well. I think I have a fairly good start to build from. I will be getting into the heads soon and see if there are any surprises. When you say the EJ20 head what is the casting number? I have D25, thinking you are talking about B25.

Pearldrummer7

04-08-2020, 01:58 PM

Sweet thread, and cool built R. I'm a few hours North of you (Asheville NC) and come by that way a bunch. I've got an R from 2014 (nothin' fancy) if you ever wanna check some stuff out once this quarantine is over! It's registered too, so we can prolly rip up Tail of the Dragon

jforand

04-08-2020, 07:54 PM

jforand

04-08-2020, 09:02 PM

I tacked in a few pieces I was able to make out of the one tube I cut out. I think it is going to work out fine. I am fighting the urge to fully burn it in until I get the rest of the stuff in to validate everything. I ideally it would be the seat and steering, as well as, determining the brake line fittings that will emerge form the master cylinders to cut the clearance. I think I can squeeze it between the two frame members without having to notch them. this will likely result in my steering being about 0.5" inboard of the exact seat center. I think it will be fine. I would rather not compromise the tubes with a notch if I don't have too.

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The angle on the left of the pic (toward the center of the car) will be different, this was just a quick mock up. There should be little to no interference with the real mounting solution.

Pearldrummer7

04-09-2020, 11:16 AM

Glad you enjoyed it. I hope to keep it going. Got those front square tubes tacked in last night and I moved the transmission off the operating table tonight to make room for a nice clean engine tear down and rebuild.

Good to know you’re close. It seems a lot of these guys aren’t in the SE. I was just thinking the other day that I might forgo all the DOT stuff just to make this thing quicker and simpler to the end. We’ll see how this progresses. I just found Sgt. Gator’s halo design and really like it. Going to need to make a decision to pull the trigger on that or pass relatively soon.

I did my inspection in NY (was fairly tough) and had a LOT of moments of "I should just give up on the legality part". Really glad I didn't now, even if just from a test-and-tune perspective pre-track day. The occasional drive to work on a nice day is a bonus, though it's rare

jforand

04-09-2020, 03:26 PM

I totally agree with you. How can you get the thing running well enough to even buy track time if you can't put it on the street? I also think that if and when the eventual sell of the vehicle comes along it should squelch some fears if you have a tag on it. I might lean on you for motivation to stay the course when the going gets rough:D

jforand

04-10-2020, 05:21 PM

The short block tear down (and I'm glad I did it).

First thing I noticed was a significant difference in breaking torque required moving through all of the bolts. Anyone see a suspicious cover fin laying where it should not be? What is that bolt doing in there? Sure seems to be a make shift plug of sorts, which interfered with the cover's fin.

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Case splitting. Anyone see a main bearing poking up to take a look at the camera? Looks like it was about to spin.

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Not really happy with the main bearings at all. I was hoping to get away with just honing and re-ringing. Not the case... It is hard to see it on camera, but the journals are all grooved and the finger nail catches on a ton of stuff. Even some rust on the center oil groove on the rear bearing. There is also significant grooving where the front and rear oil seals rode on the crank.

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The situation bit not get much better with the rod bearings, just a couple pics of those.

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Looks like I need to find a decent machine shop to get the crank resurfaced and polished. The where on the mains was not exactly uniform either. It seems that a resurface and a line hone might be a good idea there as well.

I have yet to tear into the heads.

Does anyone know of a trustworthy Subaru guy in the Atalanta Georgia area?

Hindsight

04-10-2020, 05:47 PM

Does anyone know of a trustworthy Subaru guy in the Atalanta Georgia area?

For engine work? So few people machine Subaru engines. All the shops I know of in Atlanta and nearly anywhere else don't do it. Everyone just buys a new OEM short block or a staged short block from somewhere like IAG or Out-Front (which use new OEM shortblocks as the base). You can get a brand new short block for a little under $2,000. You have a pretty big laundry list of machining you will need to get done, plus parts.... not sure how much money you are going to save by to the time that's all over vs just getting a new short block and bolting your old heads up to it. If you have your heart set on using your existing components and having everything machined, I'd ship it off to a Subaru specialty machinist before I'd let any "general" local engine machine shop touch it. Most local places aren't going to be used to working with Subarus nor have the torque plates and tooling required to properly machine the two-piece engine case. It would be so awful to pay all that money for engine machining, plus assembly time and money for bearings and gaskets and all that only to have it blow up.

taco20

04-10-2020, 06:06 PM

Hey the shop that built my motor is down in Florida which isn’t to far away and they can do it all. My heads are at the shop right now getting redone after loosing a cam pulley going into turn one at VIR and bending all my valves. They built my hole motor, aloud me to install it at their shop, broke it in on the dyno and tuned it for me. I live in Virginia and it was worth the drive for the service they provided and continue to provide. They will help you get the motor right for our cars not just a pick one from the list like the big name places like IAG. Anyway give them a call, email, or Facebook. https://www.revworksinc.com/

jforand

04-10-2020, 07:24 PM

Thanks for the replies. I can understand the new short block side of things. I will take some time and start researching both side of this equation. I know there are a lot of people that can totally butcher this up. I do have about 1500 in forged pistons and rods. It would be a shame not to be able to use those.

I’ll give the guys in Florida a call and see what they say. If the bill starts getting up there, which it could easily do then I might have to consider just buying the parts. I actually have another long block that apparently blew a head gasket. In theory I could yank that apart and see if the crank is in better condition. Then it might just be new bearings and rings and I can build it up.

Taco, what do you think the issue with your cam pulley was. I hope it did not have to do with their build....

Rob T

04-11-2020, 06:03 AM

Not to scare you, but I also had a cam pulley twist off on a cold start at the track. EJ257. Not exactly sure, but best guess is that it was a faulty head re-build. I went with new heads after that.

taco20

04-11-2020, 08:36 AM

Hey I had the plastic pulley separate from the internal metal gear that is made into it on the passenger side head. The motor has been together for 3 years and I run the **** out of it at the track. RevWorks has seen the issue before and I am replacing the pulleys with metal ones that should stop the issue. The motor was out of a wrecked car when I got it and it was the only pulley that hadn’t been replaced so I don’t see how I can fault RevWorks for the issue. I am also upgrading the belt tensioner and belt to some new high grip setup that they use on their drag engine so hopefully I will have no more issues in the future.

Sgt.Gator

04-11-2020, 11:59 AM

Hi Justin,
Great to have another R coming along. I've just gone thru your entire thread and have a few comments, sorry I'm late to the game here.
In your post #4 you have ID'd the transmission correctly as a 08-09 STI, but I think your gear ratios are wrong. From my sources the gear ratios are: 3.636 / 2.235 / 1.521 / 1.137 / 0.971 / 0.756

Here are some images that explain the differences of the 08 STI 6 speed from the earlier STI 6 speeds.

https://w50pyw.by.files.1drv.com/y4m92nLFSQxTFJG2fgENppLUvLgo8IGvYF10K2npy9ieFBdRPJ nVcq5r-0BcNC3-7sMt9cLVOtQYpSpyIrXg9Kj8JK6fqlhlMWkDO9T_qR9n91VZie UGNkEkxIL5IS1l8fxZsFycAwajxqAVZDkV6qIjhuE18TWJn0_1 dU3Ey6wSIeWUPzQLVAL_sHjAG5fo2BbBwoSyG2wdJ2-O9D_4VS0oA?width=754&height=1039&cropmode=none..https://wz0pyw.by.files.1drv.com/y4m_K7zJiku61xlmFpix9oglOIb0V5dIY_wUDGAUms7WXEplWz CTWBccUtEcLvBKSA6p71coTYeJR1bQHJ9cB8qsf63K13MsinER saoGA6D_rhxtIU5LZsh9s91h_tzK6R_-6hF9BweJVBPbzbGLi9ST-3uvmDXUyG8mj2Yt4xFVA2eJ-g9I7IaU2j0CJh6FxsYItgwColgvv7H4gHO0bz1vw?width=718&height=1042&cropmode=none..https://wj0pyw.by.files.1drv.com/y4moLOk-jabGrzprED8wrfYFmtQ0u2TzufIrg7bRVuTptrgd7ktw8_Rtha O2DGhd-6ZHulEscZPMu1_kVZSis_pRuhbe4odw0N064pLKvZVWO0pOkhV Frz6_CVghDRES-ijYvuAN6CPAitJi-74acqa4y5mmTuWU-18ThCso4DQfd2HObOBlJ-B9oUpu6p6ZwcRUN9zvy7R40KzYad6OrROmA?width=727&height=1041&cropmode=none..https://zp0pyw.by.files.1drv.com/y4meMTYii5pyFRsJiJctS-oGcWlxOTtS-URmiMoLHbtKXMBG6Hl-iILyKNAk1iT3Jvho_YOuTlxGrAgLxWVprZJOAhfvLMTM6qsXtP n2nZPL0OfeniIU6j2CljL_JagvFNnRHJcG6F5AQ_BowAy53iSh dnwbN_-kU_5l-qzAXnLFuo0CBjmQzifjhdGXTa0Tw2g05B5dyK6FbUoK4EGXT0l Jw?width=791&height=713&cropmode=none

Regarding your engine: What is your HP/TQ goal? If you are building to eventually race in competition it's very important that you pick the class you want to race in and then build to that class. The wrong way to do it is to build a cool and fast car, then try to find a class to race in! I've done that as well as 90% of everyone else who has modded their street cars with neat tuner gear, only to discover that one or two mods have bumped them into a class where they aren't even close to competitive without spending a boatload more $$$$.

Since you are already a NASA member, and NASA has a great program in their ST classing, I suggest you pick a ST class and build precisely to the limits of that class. Your engine HP/TQ goals will be set by the total car build because other mods to your car will require a different HP/TQ to stay in the class. https://supertouring.nasaseries.com/

Which brings me to the rebuild your shortblock vs buy a new OEM block....if you go thru the above classing process and decide that you want 300 HP/TQ or less then IMHO you should buy a new EJ257 shortblock from Subaru. The build vs buy shorblock has been discussed innumerable times on the Legacy GT forum, NASIOC, and IWSTI. The consensus is that at stock power levels you can't beat a new oem shortblock for both cost and reliability. Many even say up to 400 HP at the wheels, but in my opinion those are people who have street cars. They don't “live” at 400 HP like a full on race car does for hours at a time, so I and the tuners I trust prefer to set the oem shortblock limit at 300 AWD HP for a road race car.

The best price on a EJ257 shipped to your door will be from Heuberger Subaru in Colorado. If you have a relationship with your local Subaru dealer ask their parts manager if they will match the Heuberger online price. Today's price is $1,719.99 plus shipping. Rallysport Direct will sell you one for $1,999.0 with Free Shipping.

If you want 400HP in your R then yes, you should rebuild it with your forged parts. Or pay IAG or Outfront to do it.

Hope this helps.

jforand

04-13-2020, 12:42 PM

Great post Gator!

That is interesting on the transmission. I don't think I saved the sheet that I located on line, but there was a massive sheet that had pretty much everything under the sun on it. I'll have to pay attention if/when I come across it again. In the end it will be what it is. Adjusting gear ratios is WAY down the list for me a this time. I need an engine to spin it and a car to put it in....a seat would be nice as well. Steering, that can probably wait :D I took out all the oil channeling and mechanics from the tail housing. It really can't get much lighter and there is nothing left that needs lubricated. I think I am good to go on the trans.

Your commentary about picking the class is a very good point. I have not looked into any of that stuff at this time. I have basically zero knowledge on this Subaru stuff and really have no idea where to begin picking it up. What I was thinking was just build a nice stout motor without anything crazy as cheaply as I can. The pistons and the rods should really do nothing for HP alone. They do not appreciably change the compression ratio necessitating crazy tuning to my knowledge. Later down the road if I want to raise the stakes I will have something to build from. The current plan it to blow apart my extra long block and see if that crank is good. If it is I will figure out how to cobble things together. If it is not then the new OEM short block starts to sound very good. The other aspect are the heads. I have a couple D25's that look ok, but I have not torn them down yet. That will be after the block tear downs. If they end up being trash then I might be looking at a new OEM long block. I have been learning here and there, but it is very tough to decipher the facts from people (no shortage of them) pontificating away.

Can I say how much I am liking the cam sprocket bolts? They are AWESOME. I spent about 5 hrs yesterday on one of them and it is still winning. Going back and forth between the hold on the sprocket not being good enough, then the leverage on the bolt not being big enough. Up the game on one and the other becomes the short fall again. I just picked up the Irwin bolt extractors at lunch today and I fabricobbled a sprocket holder. Hopefully it pops loose. If not I will have to get a lot more serious about holding the sprocket. Really wish they would have put some hexes on the cam shafts.

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I did manage to get the rear brake caliper brackets 3D printed thanks to my brother in law and nephew!. They are pretty cool in my opinion. I will be making a couple tweaks to the files to bolster some strength and provide a tad more clearance in one area. Then it is time to find an affordable manufacturer. If you can zoom in, the pencil will be increased overlap and the blue sharpie will be increased clearance. Just need to get it up on the car with the rotor to do a file check on everything.

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I did get a reply from NASA SE Tech about people to contact for cage building. I also got a name and number off the cage in a car my father-in-law used to run. So, I will start the quest to determine what a halo looks like in cost, time, location, and form.

jforand

04-13-2020, 03:31 PM

AHAHAHA, I win!

It was a grueling battle, but I persevered over the dreaded Cam Sprocket Bolt. This is a lot less impressive here in the forum where the pain and suffering does not extend over hours.....

The Irwin bolt extractors did not work at all. I do not know what happened to this bolt, but it did not want to come out. There was nothing on that bolt head that could sustain the force required to break it loose. This is really a bit of an anomaly as the bolt is not that large (ultimate torque specs) and the threads we perfect when I did get it out. It really had to come down to the flange on the bolt against the sprocket. It is an exceptionally large flange for the thread diameter.

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Now I can continue with the long block tear down.

jforand

04-17-2020, 09:46 AM

So with the cam bolt out i was able to pull the last head on the long block and break it down. I'm in search of a good block and crank shaft.

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Good start. Mud in the cylinder, a few stuck valves, and dowels the look like the inflatable advertising sock things they put in front of the cellular phone store!!! I can only assume the engine got dropped to do this damage, though I don't see any witness marking or damage on the outside. I am pretty positive that both head gaskets were blown. Carbon making it out of the combustion chamber and over to the water jacket is pretty tell tail. Also, this is my first experience with a turbo, but I thought it was pretty neat that in breaking the case and head bolts loose I get pressure releases that spit some old coolant at me. I have no idea how long this engine sat like this, but I would guess years.

After working quit a bit to get things moving hopefully without causing any new damage to the crank, these are the pistons that came out.

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Kind of starting to think, "why go on" at this point. Some browser history might show me looking up new short and long blocks......

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Whoa, as it turns out the crank is pretty much perfect!! This is really only one spot that I can catch with a finger nail (really not that badly) and it is the stock, standard dimension on both the mains and rods. What a pleasant surprise.

I know need to make a decision on the block itself. I have JE pistons for a standard cylinder bore that I would like to use. The bores on the short block they came in look very good. It would be a simply 'deglazing' and re-ringing, but there is one or two areas of the block that have been altered and not to my liking. The long block's block is all good except the cylinder bores took a beating. I am going to make and attempt to clean them up, but I can't imagine that I will get them looking good and still be anywhere close tot he standard bore. I am pretty positive I will find pitting that would need to be bored out.

We shall see soon enough.

Main and Rod bearings, what are you all doing for them? IAG seems to be using ACL, but I have seen quit a bit of bad press on them (ACL) lately. It is hard to know what to believe, thought I would tend to side with IAG. I know the Subiperfomance out in Germany seems to live by Mahle. There are still others that are saying that King is pretty decent. Need to pull the trigger on some so I can get this thing going in the right direction. Thanks for any input.

jforand

04-17-2020, 10:08 AM

Also started playing with that head with the stuck valves above in post #114

I tore it all the way down, plugs and all. Got it all cleaned up. You have to be careful with oven cleaner, but I am really liking its effectiveness. I made sure to keep it out of the inside (camshaft section). It will etch clean aluminum pretty much instantly, so I did not want it on the journals (or bearing surfaces like in the lifter) at all. A couple minutes with that and a brush ended with a pressure washing. Then cleaned out the valve guides, lapped all the valves and started tracking positions at this time. It was then time for an assembly to see if this was going to be a workable unit. Tings went together well and and looked good so I kept moving forward. Time to figure out if I could get all the lash in spec. It took two iterations of measuring, mixing, and matching with the lifters I had to work with. In the end I got everything in spec with only two being toward the high end, but still comfortably within spec.

So the last thing was the resurfacing. I decided to give the glued sandpaper to a nice piece of glass a try. I started with 320 grit, ran out and used 400, then finished with 600. Keeping it wet really works wonders for lubrication, keeping the paper clear, and enhancing the cutting action. I will let you watch the spots fade away as you tab through the pics.

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The setup and a whole bunch of Core excercise:D I think it turned out pretty awesome.

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So after a tear down, final cleaning, and reassembly it is on the shelf waiting for something to bolt it too. The other head will start the process soon.

Hobby Racer

04-17-2020, 10:09 AM

AHAHAHA, I win!
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Just curious, did you stick , mig or tig weld that nut onto the bolt?

jforand

04-17-2020, 10:57 AM

Just curious, did you stick , mig or tig weld that nut onto the bolt?

Mig. Worked like a champ. After the quick heat blast from the welding, about 20 seconds later I hit it with an electric impact, which btw was completely inadequate prior. You could not hold things rigidly enough to get the full benefit of the impact. It just buzzed right off, don't really even think I needed to hold the sprocket at all. Just need to make sure things are clean and the ground clamp is on the nut. Don't want any current trying to flow through the cam shaft and journals. That would likely be game over.

STiPWRD

04-17-2020, 11:28 AM

Nice work on those heads, be sure to check flatness with a straight edge.

Sgt.Gator

04-17-2020, 01:18 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjZ0XtLYtzc

Subaru Cam Bolt Removal by Outfront Motorsports Inc.

I keep my old CV axle nuts in a box just for this purpose! If you want to never worry about it again the TiC FU Cam Bolt Kit has a very robust nut. But then you can't use the
Company 23 Cam Lock Tool. http://www.company23.com/506

Sgt.Gator

04-17-2020, 01:27 PM

https://youtu.be/AWepM-PVe9o

jforand

04-17-2020, 03:27 PM

Pearldrummer7

04-20-2020, 07:31 AM

I found the same video. I had one of those axle nuts (actually two of them floating around here and for the life of me could not find them. The large nut I did find worked just as well. Then walking back into the shop area, there is an axle nut just sitting there staring at me.....

So I have see that tool and I have seen a lot of people install timing belts without it. There are marks everywhere. Does it really make life that much easier?

STiWRD,

The is a great idea and i strongly considered it, but I am pretty sure the straightest and flattest thing I have is that head at this time. I really should invest in a proper straight edge. You seem to be the one that comments most about the engine. Did you have an opinion on bearings?

On another note, I got a metal shipment in today (well most of it anyway). That means I can get back out and finish up the proper install on the pedal box. I can start swapping mock up brackets for real bars. I can also take one of my blocks, bolt it to the front of the transmission, and drop it in the car to determine exactly where to cut and fab for the 6MT. That will be kind of cool to see it in the chassis.

I have the camlock tool and was on the fence at first, but after using it I get it. Done a lot of timing without it and it's just a lot easier/nicer with it. It's not about marking, it's about holding two sprockets against valve tension while you align and tighten everything. Just saves your hands one task. A friend works just as well!

Great work on the cam sprocket bolt removal- that looked like it was a frustrating endeavor.

I can't help on the (deeper than timing) engine work unlike STiWRD, but my ACL bearings seem to be holding up well.

jforand

04-20-2020, 09:21 AM

One vote for ACL bearings.

I was really interested in getting the Mahle/Clevite product, but am really struggling to find them. There are links out there but it is very hard to determine exactly what you are ordering. In going to the 2016 Mahle catalog for a Trimetal bearing I get the following:

Connecting Rod Bearing
CB-1657H or CB-1657HX (The X denotes an extra 0.001 for oil clearance) This would be a feature for the track where you run thicker oil and high revs and are less worried about the million cold starts a daily driver sees.

Main Bearing
MB-3981H
MB-3982H
MB-3840H

Main Bearing with extra 0.001 oil clearance
MB-3552HXA
MB-3552HXB
MB-3804HX

I can readily find the rod bearings on Amazon at ~$16 per rod. I am unable to get either of the main bearings to pull up at all.

STiPWRD

04-20-2020, 10:12 AM

I haven't done a ton of research on bearings so can't really suggest one brand over another, sorry, but I would definitely verify all the clearances with plastigauge. In general, I'm no engine builder, but I always check clearances and flatnesses to verify the manufacturers (or machine shops) got them right. I hope you have an inner bore gauge and micrometer for checking piston clearances.

This is what I use for checking flatness (good to .001):
https://www.jegs.com/p/JEGS/JEGS-24-Straight-Edge/957599/10002/-1

The price is pretty reasonable. There are youtube videos on checking flatness but all you need is to put a feeler gauge along a few points on the decked surface, place straight edge on top (sandwiching feeler gauge) and pull the feeler to see if it drags the straight edge along with it. If it drags, you're flat to the thickness of the feeler gauge. Check at several points.

Sgt.Gator

04-20-2020, 11:03 AM

I consider Outfront and IAG to be the premier performance Subaru engine builders in the US. I use Outfront because they are on the west coast and my tuner has a great relationship with them. If I were on the east coast I would probably use IAG.
IAG uses King or ACL.
Outfront uses King XPG. They also sell them on the website. https://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/ej-bearings

King XPG: http://www.kingbearings.com/news/new-king-xpg-engine-bearings-help-improve-performance-for-subaru-ej-series-engines/

If ACL and King are these two builders go to bearings that's good for me.

jforand

04-20-2020, 11:42 AM

Thanks guys. I was about to PM you Gator.

STiWRD, totally agree with all you are saying. I know your straight edge is much better than what I used (yes, I need to buy one), but I did do the flatness checked in many angles and locations and was not able to see light sneaking under the edge I was using. I feel pretty good about those surfaces now. Unfortunately, I think there is going to have to be an element of good enough here. I wish I had all the measurement equipment to truly measure everything, but I don't and pretty much won't anytime soon. I have been watching a bunch of the SubiPerformance stuff out of Germany and it never ceases to amaze me the thousands and thousands of dollars of specialty measurement equipment they have. Kind of like I imagine Heaven. The piston clearance is going to be one I struggle with a bit. I can measure the top, but will not be able to get inside to determine any tapering or hour-glassing type deformity. I will of course be able to exactly set the new ring gaps and such, but if the bottom of the bore opens up a little I am going to have to roll with it for now.

The good thing is that both of my engines were running when they were taken out of service for blown head gaskets. So I can 'somewhat rest' on the fact that there are no catastrophic interference over massively undersized issues. They would have presented in irregular wear and problems during the tear down. So the bores and cylinders should be fairly close to the spec. I will definitely be plasti-gauging all new bearings. All the valves have been lapped and re-lashed. I figured lapping would tighten things up, but it was more than I expected. More on that in the next post. Short story, I had to order 3 new lifters to get everything dialed in there. Lastly, as I am deciding what parts to marry back together I will pay careful attention to the piston fitment if I decide to install the pistons in the other block. That would be an untested assembly and therefore need a lot more scrutiny imo.

Trying to do the best I can with out breaking the bank. I also do not want to spin down into analysis paralysis. The original intent was to bolt whatever I had together and run it for what it was worth and then later go through a full engine build. I have already ratcheted up on that plan's time, effort, and money quite a bit.

I do appreciate the comments so please keep them coming. This would be a very different ballgame with say an F1 budget:D

Pearldrummer7

04-21-2020, 10:57 AM

This would be a very different ballgame with say an F1 budget:D

Even the newly reduced $175M would work for me, I ain't greedy.

Sounds like re-building the engines would be "good enough" for me too; I have found that a lot of the things I was worried about didn't blow up, and a lot of the things I wasn't even thinking about were on-track failures (Left/Right shifter cable snapped on track, for instance...I actually finished the session, and except for the straight 3-4 gear was fine)

jforand

04-21-2020, 09:01 PM

Funny! Yeah, it is the cheap stuff that bites you. One can only hope that the 5-20 dollar part does not result in 100s or thousands in damage.

jforand

04-23-2020, 07:12 PM

I have made my way through the other head. I think all looks pretty decent. I cleaned it all up, lapped the valves and resurfaced everything. This one was worse than the first as far as the resurfacing. The center section of the exhaust side really pulls back. I hope that the phenomenon has played out and with a newly flatted surface it stays where it is. Again, some shots of the surface coming into flat.

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I had checked the lash prior to diving in and found a few that were out with too large of a gap. I was hoping that cleaning and lapping would tighten things up back into spec. In the end I had three go too tight. I was pretty surprised by that, but we aren't talking about a lot of distance and there is the valve angle working in the situation here as well.

I did quit a bit of thinking and brought he other head back into play to see if I could rearrange lifters to make it all work. I believe I managed to get it down to three that I need to purchase and I shuffle about 8 of them around to new homes and everything gets dialed in. I hope the measurements and math all hold true when the three new ones arrive in the mail. I ended up at https://www.subarupartsdeal.com/ as the cheapest place I could find. They actually seem pretty great. In the end it appears they order everything from Subaru. Takes a little longer, but it is OEM Subaru and at very good pricing. here is the amazingly confusing sheet.

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jforand

04-23-2020, 07:40 PM

I also went out and started attacking the frame again, now that the metal has arrived. I went after fabbing the pieces for the pedal back and figuring out how to get the throttle pedal in there as well.

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I spent a decent amount of time contemplating the throttle pedal placement. I like a very easy reach with the right side of the foot. Basically, I like the right of the foot to be over the throttle and just starting to touch under threshold braking. Then it is an easy rock of the foot for the rev match. This can at times be a bit problematic in my Mustang. If I over-cook it coming in of the surface isn't quite right and I lock a tire ABS comes into play. This has the effect of letting the brake pedal progress toward the floor as it has to bypass small amounts of the high pressure fluid to release the calipers. I can then find myself getting throttle when I do not really intend to. I am hoping this has basically all gone away with the 818. No power and no ABS, there should not be a way for the pedal to sink any lower without some sort of failure. I think I will still have room in the current situation to make additional bolt holes to the right should I desire to bump it out some more. I can also re-center the face on the brake pedal itself. I bumped it to the right as I thought it was a bit close to the clutch for me, at least in street shoes. Will probably get all those welds burned in this weekend.

I also went ahead and attacked the 6 speed transmission frame issues.

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The masking tape was the plan. One thing I learned in a hurry up front is that welding a tube inside an angle less than 90 degrees is NOT an easy thing. Hats off to the welder. It is and art as much as a skill. Right now I am have the cross members in and think I might go with just those. The mocked up tape bracing is way too small on the internal triangle to get a MIG gun in there.

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Finally, I thought it would be a good idea to check clearances a bit up front before fully welding. The only thing that I could really do differently is the throttle bracketing. The pedal box has got to be where it is. So I got out the sway bar. Surprise, another OEM pat that I have that will not be going on the car. It is not the correct one. I don't know if it is an STI thing, or maybe it is a front and I need the rear.....not sure. It is far too short and will not reach the mounting bushing locations. I know that FFR recommends not running it on the track setups, but that actually surprises me a bit. Maybe some of you all have an opinion on that.

I also threw the dash in there. It is going to make the brake reservoir somewhat difficult. Where to put it. I obviously want it close by and I would like (need) it to be the high spot. I certainly do not want to have to take the dash out to check and fill fluid, but I don't know that there are many options. Right now I am thinking I can either make the dash easy to pull in or out or cut and access door in it. I guess I need to get a little further down the road to figure out how hard pulling the dash would be with all the other stuff that needs to go in.

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jforand

04-23-2020, 07:50 PM

I ended up going with the ACL main and rod bearings for the rebuild. I also opted for the 0.001" extra oil clearance option and paired this with a 12mm JDM oil pump which came in today. Hoping the extra clearance pays dividends on the track and should allow a bit thicker oil. The 12mm rotor should provide higher oil volume and restore some of the pressure that would be lost with the larger clearance. So with the bearings in house I decided it was time to see if I could make the choice between blocks to build back. I went down and cleaned out the bores and did a first round of honing to see what the situation truly was.

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Game over for the 'long block' I have. The only way this one is going to see action is a bore and hone upsize. I really don't feel like replacing pistons when I have a nice and usable set for the standard bore size. This pushes me to the 'short block' I had as is mocked up in the frame right now. The bores are great, but there are one or two 'mods' and/or screw ups from the previous owner that I was hoping to simply take out of circulation rather than deal with. Oh well, I figure it out.

jforand

05-02-2020, 09:22 PM

Dropped off the couple blocks I have, cranks, one set of pistons and rods at a machine shop for an opinion. It turns out that I need to do some machining either way I try to cobble this thing together. I decided to get a professional opinion as to the work required either direction. I have one block that I would prefer to use, but requires boring and honing, which of course means a new set of pistons. So we are taking a look at the other block to see if we can easily recover it and use the JE pistions I have. If it turn out that is a nogo for one reason or another i will likely buy the new pistons and go back tto he other block. We shall see soon enough.

Turns out the guy had a CNC buddy right next door. He has order the blocks of aluminum and will hopefully be machining my rear brake caliper bracket next weekend. Super psyched about that.

Couple questions for the group:

Steering rack -

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Does anyone else have the bellows craching into the front LCA bolt? Mine is going to rake over it big time and will assuredly have a giant hole in it in no time. so in thinking through the entire situation some more I was never really a fan of how much bump steer spacing was going to have to be places out at the tie rod end. The longer that gets the worse all the forces are. It would seem another way to help combat this is to raise the steering rack. The pics above have it clamped in a position that I think I like. I essentially slide it up the angled brackets about an inch. I will likely just weld and extension onto those brackets and redrill a new set of holes. This accomplished two things, 1) it gets the bellows off the LCA bolt and they are free and clear to do their job, 2) I raise the rack about an inch which should take roughly an inch out of the needed adjustment out at the tie rod end. I have yet to bolt everything up tight and take a look at the true bump steer, but it all looks and sounds good to me at this moment. I did see one other post out here of a gentleman that ended up raising his rack as well. It does not seem to be popular for some reason.

Any thoughts?

I was thinking about trying to plumb in the brakes. I think it would be cool to stomp on the pedal and feel some push back. I decided that I really should start with the flexible lines to the calipers and determine a good spot to place the hard line conversion brackets. I don't want to little flexible (or too much) line after bending everything up. Turns out I also had to buy a line bender.....really not sure where my last one got off to. So I started up at the pedal box and then realized that I really need to get all the sheet metal up there prior to trying to route anything. So here is the mock up.

Front Firewall - Round 1

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Looks pretty tight imo. Glad I went around to the other side. The throttle ended up hitting the poster board with about 3/4-1" travel still left.

Round 2

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There will be some small tweaks to tighten everything up before the transfer to sheet metal. I did not measure it yet, but I believe there will be a goof 5 inches or more of travel on the pedals, which is more than I hope I will need. I am positive that the clutch will be the limiting factor. I plan to dial them back as far as safely possible for the most room. I will also need to determine how much I am going to be making removable and what fasteners to use. Also need to figure out reservoir placement. I am debating between these:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/til-72-576

or

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/til-72-578

I am wondering if the smaller one will be too small for my liking. I don't want to have to be adding fluid as pads wear in a weekend. Kind of like the set it and don't need to sweat it again for a while, just glance at it every now and again. It will also be a pain to access under the dash in this car. Last thing on the reservoir is how to plumb it in. One of these has barb fittings and the other -4 AN. The Wilwood MCs have a 7/16-20 straight thread and a male flare at the bottom. It seems if I go the AN route I am looking at 60+ dollars in hoses to connect them up, pules the 50+ dollars to get the fitting in the reservoir and in the MCs. Sourcing a 7/16-20 straignt thread to a 3/8" hose barb is not all that easy either. I did find:

https://www.mscdirect.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/details/80258544

Haven't ordered them yet as I am still tryign to come to grips with $13 in shipping for them :mad:

Ok, so back to the question on the sheet metal. Without being an expert with everything that goes up here or how to access it, does anyone see any glaring issues with the intended plan? I may bring the angled metal with the steering column hole in it a little farther right to be squarely under the brake pedal as well. Right now it kind of splits it, which looks awkward and I guess in some weird way might possibly interfere with the pedal and bind something. If it hits that metal something went way wrong, but I would rather it just smack down on flat sheet metal rather than hitting and edge and slipping to the side or something.

DSR-3

05-03-2020, 09:44 AM

jforand

05-03-2020, 12:18 PM

That short Tilton reservoir set is cool. I didn't find it when working out my system. I used the tall one, but the barbs are so long that using them results in a dip in the hose to the MC's- not good IMO. I cut off the barbs and spot-faced the reservoir, and installed banjo bolts & fittings with o-rings, resulting in a slope down to the (Wilwood) MC's. Unfortunately, that short unit's chambers are reverse of the MC layout- not that you can't cross the hoses. Suggest not locating any solution where you can't easily get at it. The banjo fittings (same as supplied with the Wilwood MC's) were the most expensive part.

DSR-3 Would you happen to have any pictures? I have not totally figured out the dash mounting yet, but I am really struggling to determine a spot that will be both close and easily accessible. The black arched fiberglass piece does not sit well anywhere on the chassis, it is not very obvious where it goes. I think I have an idea, but it will actually entail quite a bit of trimming to get it there. Need to go find that part in the manual to make sure I am barking up the right tree.

Are these the Wilwood banjos that you speak of?

https://www.wilwood.com/LineKits/LineKitsProd?itemno=220-11565

I did not get ANYTHING in the MC boxes except the MC. I was pretty disappointed by that.

DSR-3

05-03-2020, 01:18 PM

I believe they came with the FFR Wilwood kit. I don't see them in the current picture on FFR website, but pretty sure I bought 3 more from them.
Not surprised that they don't come with MC if you bought them separate.
I have a bag of 94 o-rings if you go this route...
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jforand

05-04-2020, 11:06 AM

Very clean solution! I really like the very compact 90s you are able to get. I will strongly consider this moving forward. I have created a bit of an interference that it does not appear you suffer from as much. I pushed the pedal box forward of the 'fire' wall to gain about ~6 inches of leg room. The result is that I really boxed in the MC ports between and at the same plane as some chassis support members.

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I don't think I will have the room with the body to go over those bars even in a nice sharp 90 like you did. The best case would be the bottom of the reservoir sitting 'on top' of those support bars and the hose could run right on top and drop into each MC. I think the reservoir will interfere with the body. You mentioned the dip in the hose. From a fluids perspective the governing issue is the height of the reservoir, not so mush the routing of the tube. As long as the bottom of the reservoir is at or above the height of the MC all fluid above that height will freely flow and drain to the MC. Once the reservoir is empty you would be left with fluid in any low hanging parts of the tube routing.

Seems like a total pain but I think I am going to have to throw the front on enough to get the hood in the right place to fully evaluate this. There is a lot of the 'chicken or the egg' going on in the building process:D Your pics did also show your mounting up on the forward most bar of the main chassis (prior to any nose structure). This gives me hope that there is more room than I had originally thought there would be. Do you know off the top how much clearance your reservoir caps have to the hood?

DSR-3

05-04-2020, 07:15 PM

I don't know about clearance, but I'll have a look tonight.
Totally cool what you are doing! Lack of legroom is my #1 beef with this car, and I sure could use 2+ more inches to work with.

BigDave1

05-06-2020, 11:45 AM

The plastic plug for the electronic diff wiring was all brittle so I took it out. I was thinking about trying to thread that and have it be the return line for a trans cooler. Any thoughts as the best place to install the return line? I could go somewhere smaller and more in the body of the transmission. There does not seem like a high flow path back up front from the tail housing section. I could just freeze plug the large hole for the center diff wiring.

A 1 inch freeze plug, costed with cement worked great for me.

jforand

05-07-2020, 05:55 PM

Thanks BigDave1, that is exactly what I ended up doing. Got the appropriate freeze plug and used the Indian Shellac that FFR recommends for the case plugs when trimming my them down. Worked great. The decision got really easy when I discovered another high, forward, out of the way, and threaded opening in the case. I believe it might be for a dip stick on some models thought mine does not seem to have every been fitted with one. Anyway, that will be the spot I return the fluid from a cooler when I get that far.

jforand

05-14-2020, 08:19 AM

Not a lot of progress lately, at least it doesn't feel that way. I have moved on a few things though

First, I managed to convert my Fusion 360 concept of a rear brake caliper for the Cadillac brake setup into reality, which is very exciting to me. They look a lot like the ones that many have on this forum (sadly, I do as well), but these are for an '04 STI hub, NOT a WRX. Everything had to be upsized. They fit really well. There is no more room for additional metal to add strength and are made of 6061 Aluminum.

I am more than happy to share the CAD file if anyone wants to replicate. Further, if anyone is looking for a set for the WRX hub I have a set I cannot use.

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Seems I did not get an installed pic....whoops. I was playing with the idea of home anodizing, which does not appear to be very difficult but I am an impatient fellow and could not wait to see them on the car doing there job.

I think I settled on a solution for the brake reservoir, at least mostly. I went with the Tilton that Mitch had recommended to me. I know it is over kill, but I went the more expensive route with the AN fittings and pre-made hoses over to AN fittings on the MCs themselves. Hopefully I will never have an issue here in the future, plus they look so cool. I still have to work out the reservoir mounting location, so hopefully all acquired parts will accomplish the job. I think the guy at Tilton assembling this thing had a bad day, or possibly I am confused as to what the actual top and bottom is......

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I also eneded up having to take the engine(s) pieces I had to a machinist. There was a hole drilled and poorly plugged in the block I was forced into using and that bottom (last to install) smooth timing belt pulley had the threads all buggered up. I chased them and could thread the bolt smoothly, but this is not a bolt you want failing with an interference fit engine. I asked the guy to do a Timesert style insert versus Helicoil. He said he could so I hope ther was not a brand substitution applied.

He measured the pistons, rods, cylinders, cranks, etc and said everything is good to go. He put a polish on the cranks and redressed the bores a bit to ensure ring seating. All of this was done at a very attractive price so I am pretty happy on this end as well. Very excited to get it back home today or tomorrow and start putting a motor together. It is nice to have some piece of mind on the measurements. I just don't have the measurement equipment inventory to reliably get it taken down.

Finally, I started bending some brake lines, again no pics of that just yet. I started at the rear calipers and am trying to bring them across the front of the engine bay and up the driver's side as the manual depicts. It really does not surprise me at all that the tee they show does not end up anywhere close to the pictures. I think I like it close to that location or maybe rotated over to the inside of the outer frame rail in the same general area. The plan is to make a new line that connects the two 'medium' lines coming from each caliper and just cut the tee in where I want it. Just more fittings and joints than I like with all those little pieces that don't actually fit like the pics show.

Finally got what i would consider my worst Eastwood tool. I could not find my 180 tubing bender I used on my Tbird, must have loned it out or something. That bender was pretty good, but I did struggle in some tight spots. I always thought those Eastword 'pliers type' benders might get the job done and they have great reviews. Well, I order them, used them on the two medium lined to the calipers, and I have to disagree. Not a fan at all really. You can bend tubing no doubt, but it is hard to get a really uniform radius and it mars the crap out of these greenish coated tubes. Really very disappointing. I have a another bender coming in from Summit Racing. Way more expensive, but should be very good.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-025erl

these are the Eastwood pliers that just aren't what I wish they were

https://www.amazon.com/Eastwood-Forming-Bending-Comfort-Grip-Handles/dp/B07PPHWQWS/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=1FOLJZ6AG9DIP&dchild=1&keywords=eastwood+tubing+bender&qid=1589461970&sprefix=eastwood+tubin%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyRFlFWVBVT1dBUDlNJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNDY0MTQwMzEwNUFMSDFNRUZQMyZlbmN yeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMjUzMTg3MjVBSVpTT1oySVlURSZ3aWRnZ XROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05 vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

Still workign on the sheet metal for the front pedal box. It has been a bit challenging and frustrating actually. I have been trying to make it be nice and square and such. This has been a huge challenge as the car quite simply isn't. The new strategy is the place the forward piece on the pedal box, measure and build from there.

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Will get some pics when it is a little further along. I finally broke down last night and bought some clecos, which should greatly help out, especially for the final fitment and drilling.

STiPWRD

05-14-2020, 08:58 AM

IMO, clecos are a must for any sheet metal work, I've used my set countless times. I also had good results with this cheap brake bender tool from harbor freight:
https://www.harborfreight.com/1-8-eighth-inch-to-1-4-quarter-inch-tube-bender-94571.html
I noticed they also make a knock-off version of the Eastwood tool for $10, I didn't have good luck with that one either

jforand

05-14-2020, 09:19 AM

Funny, I was standing in Harbor Freight staring at the shelves during lunch yesterday for that exact bender. One little lady working the entire store and a million people. She pointed me back to the empty shelf where I had been. No joy.

Then when I got home I remembered all the other stuff I was supposed to buy there like batteries and more small C clamps, etc, etc. I'll be back soon.

Never used clecos, but I agree they look invaluable. I had a friend doing a home built plane and there was definitely no other way to fly (no pun intended).

sgarrett

05-14-2020, 09:41 AM

I would not have been able to do any of the interior aluminum or positioning my body panels without clecos. I would truly be lost. I borrowed the ones I am using from a friend who built a plane too. He had 100's of them!

Pearldrummer7

05-14-2020, 11:05 AM

jforand

05-14-2020, 01:33 PM

And the humor continues.....

Beer bottle, dang it seems I should have some of those around....

I specifically left this off the post, but based on the "friend building a plane" comment (and I know he might read this in the future!) I too went to the friend building a plane with 100s of clecos. Many moons later it was determined that he could not locate said clecos. I may have even gotten a couple pics of bolts in coffee cans. They were always in the plan, just not buying them from amazon.

Looking forward to actually knocking some of the sheet metal out for real.

jforand

05-22-2020, 08:55 PM

Clecos are in the house!!!!

Man, they are super cool. Anyone else have the temptation to put them in every single rivet hole because they look cool (and fun too)? So that did eventually get old as my hand grew tired.... In and out with the sheet metal a bunch of times, but I think I pretty much have the pedals boxed in.

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jforand

05-22-2020, 09:19 PM

First sheet metal permanently attached! I got the Harbor Freight 40ish dollar pneumatic rivet gun. Gotta say that was a huge disappointment. I could never get it to let go of the spent rivet shank. They get marred up and with all the spring tension in there you can't get it to slide back. If you push on the next rivet the shank/shaft just pushes into the hole through the rivet itself. You then have to pull it all apart and reset everything. I have a feeling it would work a lot better on steel rivets and shanks. It is a bit brutish for 1/8" aluminum rivets. So to quote Top Gun "I'm too close for missiles, switching to guns", I pulled out the old trusty manual popper.

Passenger front firewall is all secured.

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Managed to get the master cylinders in for a test fit as well. The reservoir is just zip tied there mainly letting the hoses take on the new shape, but it should be going close to there in its final form.

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and a final shot of the pedal with the MCs connected, which is holding them in their correct positions.

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Also ran some more brake lines in the rear. I did receive the Earl's tubing bender which is a lot easier on the tubing than those Eastwood pliers I mentioned above. I really can believe how tight of a radius all of these benders are using. I believe it is a 7/16" radius meaning I turn turn a tube back on itself with a 180 inside of an inch! It is crazy to me, but the bend looks good and seems to be ok.

The lines coming out of the calipers were the Eastwood bender and the galvanized interconnecting tube, as well as, the tube running up the side of the car were done with the Earls bender. I made the interconnecting crossover piece as the pre-flared lines weren't working out in length. It was just easier. I connected to two sides, determined where I wanted the tee, and simply cut it in.

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jforand

05-22-2020, 09:30 PM

Got all the engine parts back from the machinist and everything looks good. I kind of want to jump from the brake lines onto some engine assembly. I would really like to get the block reassembled and the heads on it. Lots of delicate and easily damaged pieces/surfaces sitting around. Polishing that off and sealing it up seems to be a wise move.

Oh, wanted to pass along a trick for the sheet metal. Not sure how you all are gaining your access to drill all the rivet holes, but a standard drill and bit gets difficult in a lot of areas. A right angle drill or drill attachment would likely help but I don't have one. A long jobber type 1/8" bit worked well for sliding it through all the tubes and hitting the mark. I used a piece of 3/16" brake line as a nice big drill bushing I could hold onto to stabilize things. You can also get away with quite a bit of bending/arcing if needed.

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Frank818

05-24-2020, 07:19 PM

jforand

05-24-2020, 09:43 PM

I'm late here, I know...
White chassis and parts, very clever! This makes it SO much easier to see what you're working on. Will all get grey after one ride but by then the car is done! :)

That looks like the 1st gen 33 rod fuel tank, what's your chassis #? Must be quite low...

Hey Frank, good to hear from you. I have been reading a bit of your stuff lately. I assume you are still the only VW powered 818?

I went looking on the chassis for a number, really thought I had seen one around the driver's front firewall area before. Maybe the powder coating blasted it and covered it over, maybe I covered with sheet metal, and maybe I am just loosing my mind. Anyway, the paperwork says #276. not sure if you went back to the beginning but I picked the kit up in Denver CO from Doowop. He bought it back in 2014 and never tore into it less and inventory.

White to grey. I can beat that. It goes pretty black after it catches fire from cutting and welding. I have pretty much damaged the heck out of the white. I had a belief this was going to be pretty snap together and that has resulted in the powder coating money going out the window. The big mod on the chassis still to come is completing out the roll cage. I intend to do something very similar to Sgt. Gator (he calls it a halo). After that I will likely send it in again for a redo.

jforand

05-24-2020, 10:07 PM

So now that I have the front firewall pretty much set I was thinking i could finish plumbing brakes and get a line heading to the rear for the clutch. Then I started thinking about splash guards and stuff. I went tearing through the boxes and laid out all the aluminum. I assume you all had the same issues, but I find it a bit tough to determine what pieces and hardware are needed for the steps. The manual calls some out but misses a lot, especially when you make the jump to the R, the supplemental leaves a lot out as well.

So I gather that there is no side interior aluminum? There are the side panels and they go on the outside on the R. I will likely swap them form steel for the intrusion factor. Same goes for the panel under the seats. Other than that there is the dead pedal and the little angled piece for the cooling tubes right? Then these of course don't mate up to the side wall without interior sheet metal. I have seen the guys discussing it and coming up with various templates. I will likely cover plate that lower front triangular area so these pieces have something to mount to.

Are you guys just running the clutch and brake lines through the front corner of the chassis with the cooling line(s)? Seems that is the way to go. As you can see in the pics above I cut through the rear corner of the chassis as well. The manual has language and pics that go through the rear corner and then in other areas (like for the cooling lines) pics you can clearly see the brake and clutch lines going around the corner and over the forward trailing arm mount.

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Guess there is going to be a lot of way to skin this cat!

mikeb75

05-25-2020, 06:25 AM

Are you guys just running the clutch and brake lines through the front corner of the chassis with the cooling line(s)? Seems that is the way to go. As you can see in the pics above I cut through the rear corner of the chassis as well. The manual has language and pics that go through the rear corner and then in other areas (like for the cooling lines) pics you can clearly see the brake and clutch lines going around the corner and over the forward trailing arm mount.
!

In my experience cutting the front corner with brake/clutch lines works fine. However, I tried the same trick with the back corner... as long as you use the factory supplied fuel tank, no problem. Later I upgraded to a Boyd tank that did not have corner reliefs and I regretted shorting the drivers corner with the brake and clutch line. Eventually I was able to... finesse... everything into place, but so much more trouble than it was worth.

If you're set with a fuel tank and have clearance it can work. If you do what I did -change my mind about just about everything in revisions- later it can be a problem.

Hobby Racer

05-25-2020, 06:32 AM

So I gather that there is no side interior aluminum? There are the side panels and they go on the outside on the R. I will likely swap them form steel for the intrusion factor. Same goes for the panel under the seats. Other than that there is the dead pedal and the little angled piece for the cooling tubes right? Then these of course don't mate up to the side wall without interior sheet metal. I have seen the guys discussing it and coming up with various templates. I will likely cover plate that lower front triangular area so these pieces have something to mount to.

Looks like you have the older style dead pedal aluminum. Mine has cut outs for the frame and side bars so the aluminum mates up to the exterior side aluminum panels. The interior aluminum is spotty, I got a bunch of "S" trim pieces in addition to the "R" pieces with my kit. I guess it depends on who was packing it that day :o

Are you guys just running the clutch and brake lines through the front corner of the chassis with the cooling line(s)? Seems that is the way to go. As you can see in the pics above I cut through the rear corner of the chassis as well. The manual has language and pics that go through the rear corner and then in other areas (like for the cooling lines) pics you can clearly see the brake and clutch lines going around the corner and over the forward trailing arm mount.

Guess there is going to be a lot of way to skin this cat!

I ran the rear brake and clutch line down the center console so they would be protected in case of a side impact. Plus it looked tidier.

Frank818

05-25-2020, 05:34 PM

Hey Frank, good to hear from you. I have been reading a bit of your stuff lately. I assume you are still the only VW powered 818?

I went looking on the chassis for a number, really thought I had seen one around the driver's front firewall area before. Maybe the powder coating blasted it and covered it over, maybe I covered with sheet metal, and maybe I am just loosing my mind. Anyway, the paperwork says #276. not sure if you went back to the beginning but I picked the kit up in Denver CO from Doowop. He bought it back in 2014 and never tore into it less and inventory.

White to grey. I can beat that. It goes pretty black after it catches fire from cutting and welding. I have pretty much damaged the heck out of the white. I had a belief this was going to be pretty snap together and that has resulted in the powder coating money going out the window. The big mod on the chassis still to come is completing out the roll cage. I intend to do something very similar to Sgt. Gator (he calls it a halo). After that I will likely send it in again for a redo.

Yeah looks like an early chassis, put a lot of attention on your fuel pump hanger solution, don't end up with the major issues I had.

There is another VW 818, wherever it is now. In 2015 or 2016 it has been presented to Obama in a Green Car show. It's a TDI powered 818 with a custom hard top. Built by a bunch of students in I can't remember which type of engineering. There is a thread somewhere here, although it started for a few posts and never got updated back.

Keep up your good work!

lance corsi

05-25-2020, 06:04 PM

Yeah looks like an early chassis, put a lot of attention on your fuel pump hanger solution, don't end up with the major issues I had.

There is another VW 818, wherever it is now. In 2015 or 2016 it has been presented to Obama in a Green Car show. It's a TDI powered 818 with a custom hard top. Built by a bunch of students in I can't remember which type of engineering. There is a thread somewhere here, although it started for a few posts and never got updated back.

Keep up your good work!
I just puked a little in my mouth. Thanks for the update.

fletch

05-26-2020, 02:11 AM

I just puked a little in my mouth. Thanks for the update.

I don’t get it.

jforand

05-26-2020, 09:14 AM

I could be mistaken, but I think it was a shot at the Green 818 (tied in with the VW TDI scandal). I'm pretty sure that we aren't all in this 818 project to green wash and save the planet. While I like to be responsible, this project is for the fun and it is very hard to wash turning money into smoke and noise as green, at least in my opinion.

jforand

05-26-2020, 09:31 AM

The short block lives again!. Pretty decent progress this Holiday weekend while still getting in some lake time and a round of disc golf.

As a reminder:

-Fixed the threads for the last to install idler pulley on the timing belt (Timesert)
-Fixed a hole that got drill in the block....??? don't know what that was about
-Measured everything and checked out in spec
-Polished a couple cranks, best one used other is going on the shelf with the spare block
-Reused the JE forged pistons
-Reused the forged connecting rods (Think they are Eagle, but really no discerning marks)
-ACL main and rod bearing with the 0.001 extra oil clearance (man that surface finish is visually irregular, smooth though)
-12mm oil pump to combat the extra oil clearance (still to be installed)

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My master gasket/seal kit leaves a bit to be desired. It has 3 rear main seals (cool, extras but why?), it only has two correct cam seals, and some other mystery stuff that I have not quite found yet.

I also think I found another error in the Subaru Manual of the 04 STI. It talks about the piston to cylinder bore clearance as 0.01mm or 0.0004". These numbers are equivalent via the math, but I don't think they can be correct in magnitude. Everything I can find and the machinist is indicating 0.0035-0.0045ish. In other words, about 4 thousandths, NOT 4 ten-thousandths.

I have a used (supposedly rebuilt) dry sump system that was installed on someones 818. I need to start figuring that out. I would like to close up the engine to keep the dirt out. Questions I have prior to any research are does the windage tray still get utilized with the highly reduced oil pan? Seems like it would make sense assuming it physically still fits. Also not sure how the oil pump pickups work. It seems logical that I would plumb in the dry sump reservoir straight into the pump via one of those legs hanging from the pump. Anyway, like I said I am at ground zero for educating myself on that system at this time. I might post pics of it when I drag it out of the box. It likely came from one of you guys:D

Frank818

05-26-2020, 10:36 AM

I don’t get it.

Same here, I read like 10 times and still don't. I thought it was cuz of my French but if you don't get it either I feel less stupid. :)

Frank818

05-26-2020, 10:38 AM

I'm pretty sure that we aren't all in this 818 project to green wash and save the planet.

HAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!!!!! You bet. :)
Only way to smoke the tires being green is go full electric with torque, although you put an X on engine sound and since that's one of the reason for me to do this project, well there you go. :)

lance corsi

05-26-2020, 11:41 AM

jforand

05-28-2020, 09:31 PM

Anyone recognize this setup, I would love to speak to you if you used to own it? I am seeking some install support for the dry sump system. It is my understanding that this was sourced used from an 818 by Doowop from and unknown person.

Right now I am looking to close up the engine (on a stand) to keep dirt out of it. So for the time being I need to get the oil pan on the block, but it seems apparent that there is a decent amount to figure out. I have read a bit out there on the dry sumps, but I did not see a bunch on the particulars of install.

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Much appreciated in advance.

Rob T

05-29-2020, 05:43 AM

Looks similar to my system. Two suction lines to the pump on the engine oil pan and gravity feed from the oil storage tank to the blue port. One pressurized line from the pump back to the storage tank (mine goes through an oil cooler) - enters tank tangentially. The little air filter is a vent for a catch can mounted off the oil reservoir. Every track day, there is a bit of milky oil in there from condensation, etc. The little tank has a drain port on it. Also, keep in mind that this is a scavenge kit. The oil removed sump will be foamy because this is a positive displacement gear pump and it is not running full, at least at the speeds my pump is spinning. Chad, the builder of my car, put in a spintric air oil separator, which I have left installed. That needs to be mounted last, right before the tank on the pressurized line, as it works by differential pressure and centrifugal action. I spoke to the folks at aviad, who were helpful. Also, the oil cooler seems to work OK with "aearated" oil. Everything gets pumped where it needs to, and there is always enough oil volume in the system to feed the engine. One thing to watch for is that oil tends to drain from the tank to the engine over time. I generally try to run the car every two weeks to pump it back around. Or you can break one of the fittings on the return and drain the crankcase. That's a pretty big hassle on my car.

jforand

05-29-2020, 08:59 AM

Looks similar to my system.

Great to know and you don't live in Canada or the West Coast!!! I could actually see your car without moving heaven and earth! Just a small jaunt from Atlanta GA.

Two suction lines to the pump on the engine oil pan and gravity feed from the oil storage tank to the blue port.

I get the two suction lines from the oil pan, but what gravity feed (seems obvious to me that it comes bottom of the tank with the red extension) to what blue port? Oh, wait. Do you mean the blue cap on the oil pan? That does make sense as there is a tube in the pan that extends up with an o-ring to the block where the oil pickup tube used to be. I was thinking this was simply blocking that off and I had to get oil directly to the pump, possibly via one of the drop legs that extend out the bottom of the pump case. Removing the blue cap and utilizing the fitting is probably way easier.[/QUOTE]

One pressurized line from the pump back to the storage tank (mine goes through an oil cooler) - enters tank tangentially.

On a quick look last night (really haven't studied it yet) it looked like there were two opposed tangential entrances at the top. Probably just pick one and leave the other capped....?

The little air filter is a vent for a catch can mounted off the oil reservoir. Every track day, there is a bit of milky oil in there from condensation, etc. The little tank has a drain port on it.

Makes sense. Actually played with the drain to see if anything was in there when I pulled it from the box.

Also, keep in mind that this is a scavenge kit. The oil removed sump will be foamy because this is a positive displacement gear pump and it is not running full, at least at the speeds my pump is spinning. Chad, the builder of my car, put in a spintric air oil separator, which I have left installed. That needs to be mounted last, right before the tank on the pressurized line, as it works by differential pressure and centrifugal action.

I think your dialogue shifted right hear from the "milky oil" in the catch can to the foamy oil heading back to the reservoir tank correct? We are now talking about how to deaerate the 'working fluid' as to not create an entire reservoir of useless froth.

I spoke to the folks at aviad, who were helpful. Also, the oil cooler seems to work OK with "aearated" oil. Everything gets pumped where it needs to, and there is always enough oil volume in the system to feed the engine.

It would seem that a cooler could help facilitate the de-frothing a bit. I have a mental picture at the moment that as long as the cooler is higher than the pump pushing to it the air would tend to want to rise tot he cooler and the liquid oil would tend to want to sit on the discharge side of the pump. Eventually the 'stacking effect' would be pushing oil through the cooler and back to the reservoir. If the cooler were lower, you would end up with an air bubble in the middle of the pressure (discharge) line and oil would stack up and just kind of spill over the hump. Having any 'trapped' air in a hydraulic system between a pump and the end destination is not a good thing. This of course is very dependent on the mass flow rate. If there is enough flow and velocity it has the potential to push that air bubble down hill and out of the line. Slower flows can't do that, the bubble flows back up the tube as fast as the fluid flows down it.

One thing to watch for is that oil tends to drain from the tank to the engine over time. I generally try to run the car every two weeks to pump it back around. Or you can break one of the fittings on the return and drain the crankcase. That's a pretty big hassle on my car.

Disappointing, be VERY good to know.

Much appreciated Rob. I would love to coordinate a visit in the semi near future if we can get comfortable with the idea. I have a guy that works up in Charlotte that I meet halfway in Greenville every so often. You seem to be a small jump to the ESE from there.

Do you know if the OEM windage/baffle is still installed? I think there is physical room and that certainly makes sense to me to leave that in place.

Also, can you give me a quick rough location on where the pump mounts? Top right or left, bottom right or left type thing? The belt obviously controls the distance. I am going to start holding it up in locations looking for bolt holes that seem to start to line up at this point. I also need to figure out the pulleys to crank attachments. It was not obvious last night, but it was late and I didn't have the energy or ability to really start working through it.

Rob T

05-29-2020, 11:58 AM

Hi: A visit would be the best. A few answers/points.

1) The gravity feed does just like you said - drains from the bottom of the tank (almost bottom, there is a stand-off in mine and and a separate hole to drain the tank) and flows to the engine through that port. I have not taken the pan off, so I don't know exactly what it looks like.

2) Yes to the moving on to the oil and working fluid. The catch pan and the milky oil are different from the "frothy" oil moving around the system.
3) According to the guy at Aviad, these are gear pumps - in other words positive displacement. The pulley sizes will determine the speed of the pump but mine are running at many multiples of any amount of oil that could be pumped around the engine. The way I think of it is that the pumps are moving a lot of air with some oil mixed in. Because of the volume of oil in the tank and the fact that you do a tangential inlet with the oil/air, it seems to separate pretty well. I have never found bubbles suspended in the oil when I look at it after coming in. My tank also has a perforated metal deck about half way down.
4) My pump is mounted drivers side, top. It has its own belt and tensioner.
5) I would be happy for you to stop by and look at it. I am right off of I-26 about 20 minutes south of Spartanburg. Looking at it would be the best way to see all of the routing, etc. I also might have a few "parts" that might be useful.
6) You need to be careful with the suction lines. They need to be vacuum rated so they don't collapse.

jforand

05-29-2020, 04:47 PM

Sounds good Rob.

I played with it a bit more today. The windage tray fits under the oil pan without issue and I have torqued it in there. The oil pan is on finger tight without sealant for now. There is a tube that seals to the block's oil pickup with an o-ring and runs down to the blue plug on the pan. The plug was finger tight, definitely where the reservoir supply plugs into the system.

I was also able to determine that the pump does indeed mount driver's side top as you report. It is a very specialized bracket and no question I have the right location.

I have yet to figure out the pulleys. It appears that I might be replacing the crank pulley with a dual setup of cogged belts. So far I am not understanding this setup up. There are few collar/ring style spacers and an anti-rotation or indexing pin on the pulley setup and I can't find a receiving hole. There is a note about needing to drill something with a 1/8" drill. I am assuming I need to make a receiving hole for the pin in something. With the dual belts it would appear that one belt must run the oil pump and the other goes to the alternator, which means I would need to change the pulley on the alternator to a cogged one. There is a smaller 'mystery' pulley that might fit the bill. I have no idea where my alternator is to check for relative size. Guess I need to find that soon.

I have not separated the reservoir tank yet. It does look like it splits through the mid height mark with a V band of sorts. I will be taking a look in there to see what is hiding. Man, the tank is really beat up. Almost looks like it hung out the bottom and took a lot of debris hits or something.

I appreciate the offer for visitation. I will keep plugging away a little at a time. It makes sense to be totally familiar with what I have so I can connect more dots when looking at yours.

Ironically, I will be at Lake Hartwell for an extended weekend. Looks like just about an hour to your town's center.

Rob T

05-30-2020, 05:50 AM

My system uses two belts. One for the oil pump, one for the alternator. Each has its own tensioner. It will be tight working in against the firewall.

jforand

06-02-2020, 12:49 PM

jforand

06-16-2020, 11:15 AM

Getting ready to put a flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate on the back of the engine. I just had the flywheel resurfaced and ordered an Exedy OEM grade replacement clutch and pressure plate. I have gone looking through all of the bolts and hardware that came with all the stuff I purchased with the kit. Interestingly enough I have no clutch equipment at all, but do and a flexplate. So there is a hodge podge of stuff, but I do not anything that looks like pressure plate bolts.

Question:

On an STI, is it really 6 bolts for the pressure plate and not 9? There are 9 threaded holes in the flywheel and pressure plate, but the manual only shows 6. What are the other 3 holes for?

Update: I just found another source that indicates 9 bolts. I think I am going with the 9 unless I find/here something that says that is a bad idea.

jforand

06-16-2020, 03:37 PM

I have now tackled the majority of the high pressure plumbing (brakes and clutch). I am really fighting the urge to put fluid in there and test out the brake pedal. I REALLY want to feel a rock solid pedal, but i know I will likely be needing to disassemble a few more times and no fluid makes that a lot easier.

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The rear has already been pictured though I now have all the hose tubing clamps in and riveted. I still do need to rivet the brackets that convert over tot he flex line. Is everybody using the FFR supplied ones that are too thin? I suppose they will work, but I would prefer a bit more positive engagement.

So I threw the front on to check the reservoir and I'm glad I did. It appears that I had a bit of an interference trying to mount on the angled frame member. I could have dropped it down a bit but then some of the reservoir fluid level becomes unusable as it drops below the level of the MCs. So, I went for the windshield mount fiberglass. I think there will be adequate clearance going forward.

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jforand

06-16-2020, 03:58 PM

This one is for you Gabrera7, you inspired me to tear into the steering rack.

I decided to just 'turn down' the shaft piston on the bench grinder. You can see in the second pic that it is significantly smaller in diameter than the end plug and seal (used to be the same size with an o-ring and teflon seal). It won't be pressurizing any air going forward:D I plan to cut off the tube bungs flush and weld the holes. I will simply plug the fitting holes in the valve body.

With respect to "welding the quill" I'm not seeing it. I have not disassembled the pinion housing, but man I would say that is a solid shaft in there. It does make sense that something has to trigger the hydraulic pressure but past chucking it up in the vice and putting a wrench on it, which I am a bit afraid to do, it doesn't more at all. It very much seems to be a straight through shaft.

I killed the inner tie rod end retainers, kind of made me mad as I had them understood, but for some reason they still rotated and sheared the tabs off. They are also stupid expensive (10-12 each) if you can pick form one of the plethora of Subi part numbers. I can buy the tie rod end for that much. I think I will be making a couple new ones.

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I did thought the teeth on the rack were pretty cool. They slant to the right, stand up straight in the middle, then slant to the right again. This is no doubt to tighten up the steering to be more precise in the center portion, but I would not have thought the angle would have changed... If I had to fathom a guess I would say it takes away the backlash and moves into interference. The spring provides more positive pressure as the pinion wants to rise up out of the groove thereby ensuring a zero backlash zone. Anyway, as I said, thought it was cool.

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jforand

06-16-2020, 04:08 PM

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Hopefully, I don't have a reason to go check on this little guy anytime soon!!!

Mitch Wright

06-16-2020, 04:27 PM

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Not saying it won't work but I have always mounted the reservoir bottom at least the height of the top of the masters with the feed hoses a straight shot to the masters.

jforand

06-16-2020, 08:07 PM

Yes, I wrote about this a few posts back. I have the levels set so that the bottom of the reservoir is just above the masters. In fluids that is pretty much the governing factor. Gravity will seek to bring the levels the same so it will run down the hose and back up to seek the same level as the top of the fluid in the reservoir. So if the final
height of the hose end and master is below the bottom of the reservoir it should freely flow and drain out the reservoir completely. The end result will be an empty reservoir and some fluid filled lines hanging down.

That’s what fluid mechanics says anyway, gonna be putting it to the test. Going straight over is problematic for me as the fittings are in the same plane as the upper frame tubes. I would either have to go over it. This local rise would set the new lowest level the reservoir would drain down to. This is a bad choice in my opinion. Going under should work as described above. Everything in the middle and below should be a non factor. I’ll certainly report out of that proves not to be the case.

It is interesting that you mounted your reservoir in the exact same manner as I thought was hitting my hood. I know my placement of the hood was certainly not exact science, but I figured it was within a inch or so. How much clearance do you have to the hood? I think I recently saw a post where you commented on that. I am thinking you were somewhere around an inch which is likely in my margin for error.

grabera7

06-16-2020, 09:21 PM

Mitch Wright

06-17-2020, 06:03 AM

I was at least a 1/2 inch from the hood. I understand and not saying it will be an issue. Just have never run supply lines that way in all the cars we have built.
Nice job on the pedals.

jforand

06-17-2020, 06:52 AM

Thanks Mitch. Yes, it would not have been my first choice by a long shot. I actually would have preferred hard lines. Those flexible lines were a bit of a best guess at the time. I am a tad worried about them moving around getting damaged. Properly restraining them is the next near term goal. We’ll see what happens.

I have heard stories of the hood bouncing quite a bit on the 818. I was concerned that 1” might not be enough when it got to really moving. I have never to measure my Mustang, but that hood gets alarming on the straights.

Mitch Wright

06-17-2020, 07:38 AM

I never had an issue with hood bounce I used the 4 hood pins supplied with the kit and did build radiator exhaust ducting that sealed to the hood, it was solid at 135mph.130093130094
I will add some duct photos with the hood off when I find them. Mine what pretty simple design but effective, others have taken more time and made really nice composite ductwork.

jforand

06-17-2020, 12:53 PM

Everything about your steering rack looks different than mine. Interestingly enough the 2006 STI rack does not seem to use the inner tie rod retaining clip. I don’t know why.

Looks great! I need to get working on mine.

Interesting. I think mine is an '04 STI rack. In all honesty it is getting very confusing as to what all the stuff I got as part of the purchase really came from. I did not grab a picture of them (a bit greasy of a job to keep grabbing the phone), but I made new retainers. Used some scrap aluminum body panel material. Hole saw for the outer diameter and a unibit for the inner. I simply used tin snips to make two small tabs on the ID that I was able to punch in and engage the rack. I then folded the edge of the OD over the inner rod end ball joint flats just as the OEM retainer did. They came out perfect.

Back to where I was before, but with a noticeably smoother feeling rack. So I will need to finalize the brackets to bolt it in. I would like to do some bump steer measurements prior to committing though. Clamps are just SO much easier to reverse than welding:D You can see I slid it up on the brackets by about 3/4", might go a full 1". Will need a new home for the top bolts an each side.

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jforand

06-24-2020, 07:47 AM

I put this out on engines and Transmissions but only getting views and no replies, so I figured I throw it in the build thread as well.

I realize this is a bit of an amateur question, but I did not see anything in my google search of the forum and I also did not really see this mentioned in the manual, both were surprising.

Do the timing belt marks line back up as they are positioned in the install? Has anyone experienced or noticed this?

Installing the timing belt on a DOHC EJ2.5.

I think every one knows you put the engine at TDC and then you line up the marks on the sprockets such that the single marks line up with the cover marks and the double marks line up on the inside edges of the intake and exhaust sprockets. When installing the belt they have you put the dotted line centered over the crank pulley and then all of the marks align with each cover mark (top of intake pulley and side of the exhaust pulley).

Ok, so with all happy it makes sense to turn the engine over by hand and see what happens. Not sure why but after a couple revolutions without any issues I thought I would send the bent around for a full revolution and see what happens. The timing belt marks do not return to the initial install position, which surprised me. The marks on the pulleys match back up with every second revolution and are perfectly opposed every other revolution between those just mentioned. So mechanically I think the timing is perfect and the belt simply 'walks' around the pulleys such that eventually ever cog on the belt will hit every cog on the sprockets. This would be very similar to the way certain rear-end gears will have the same teeth always mesh and other ratios migrate so that every tooth touches every other tooth.

Mitch Wright

06-24-2020, 08:08 AM

Once I installed with all the dots and marks lining up, rotate the engine a few rotations to get the engine back to TDC and the cam gears on there marks, didn't worry about the marks on the belt. Can't say if it is right or wrong but the engine ran great.

STiPWRD

06-24-2020, 10:54 AM

It's normal for the marks on the belt to wander around, eventually, they'll line back up. If you followed the FSM, you'll be fine.

jforand

06-24-2020, 11:22 AM

Thanks guys. I think I am good as well. What matters is the cams stay in time with the crank. If the marks on the sprockets and crank pulley agree every two crank revolutions that is what matters. This is just a case of the number of teeth in the sprockets not dividing evenly into the number of teeth on the belt, whereas the number of teeth on the sprockets is exactly two times the number of teeth on the crank pulley.

Appreciate it.

jforand

07-01-2020, 04:11 PM

The engine is coming together and the pile of parts I have to grab from is getting smaller. It has been a challenge with with parts from 1,2 and 3 cars all of which are unlabeled and unknown to me. I am pretty sure the majority of the engine is something like an '04 STI, I do questions the heads, but I think I am good to go on that. The Turbo is a VF38, which I do not believe to be the Turbo associated with the original donor. In addition, I believe the intercooler I have is more like 2008 off of a 255 versus a 257. I am still trying to figure out the nomenclature, but am thinking the 255 is a WRX Turbo and the 257 is an STI Turbo.

Anyway, the plumbing and bracketry does not seem to come close to getting the turbo and intercooler all hooked up and good.

Does anyone have an intercooler laying around?

In the end I think the water to air intercooler is a better option, but is more costly and results in another plumbing system with another HX somewhere. Right now I am looking for the cheapest and easiest way to get this thing running.

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Deleted the secondary air injection

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Deleted TGVs though I still have the final porting to due when the burrs show up in a day or two. Still need to figure out a great way to plug the holes. Can't bring myself to spend 80+ on a cover plate kit...

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idf

07-01-2020, 05:18 PM

Does anyone have an intercooler laying around?

I have a 2006 WRX intercooler available.

jforand

07-02-2020, 11:15 AM

Thanks IDF. I shot a PM to you.

jforand

07-17-2020, 12:29 PM

Feels like I am stagnated a bit, but I think things are moving along.

TGVs are gone
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Secondary air is gone, customer cover plates (Saves 40-80 bucks)
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Engine is mostly together, just the turbo and intercooler to go. Worked out most of the plumbing and hodgepodge of parts. Major thanks to IDF in Mass. for a sweet hookup on a surplus intercooler. Again, many thanks. You guys out here are awesome!!! My parts pile had one from a Legacy and it is substantially different from a WRX/STI. The turbo is also from a legacy and is a VF38 where I beleive the WRX/STI is more like a VF39. The biggest difference I have found is the physical plumbing. The VF38 discharges vertically with a bolted flange. The VF39 is horizontal across the back of the engine with a hose/clamp arrangement. It also appears that the Leagcy uses two pipes for the exhaust where the other VF39's I have seen seem to have a single, large hole. There is no easy way to hybrid a Legacy intercooler and turbo to a WRX/STI intake. It would be remote mounting and custom plumbing. Again, thanks to IDF I have a WRX/STI style intercooler and I sourced a VF39 compressor housing from ebay for $48. The waster gate actuator was another $22. The hope is I can swap those out and get everything plumbed in like a WRX/SI. Fingers crossed. Also bought a new turbo core as the donor had a pretty decent amount of shaft play. Those would be the exhaust impeller blades poking out of the packaging (yikes). I was told that if it spins freely that that means it is still balanced. Apparently, all things that spin are balanced (um, sure...). I have a year warranty, so I guess I need to get this thing running to see if there is damage or not.

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versus

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Still need to get a turbo oil feed line banjo bolt for the VF38. This is a fairly big deal and the orifice number and size is critical to oil the turbo correctly without over oiling and blowing smoke. Might just have to be a dealer item to ensure I get it correct.

Also got the fuel system parts ordered (new fuel pump and such). I ended up cleaning the donor injectors and will start with them.

I have the early 'hotrod' style fuel tank. Anyone notice that the 'clocking' tangs on the fuel level sensor position the float extremely close to (likely does contact) the angle front wall of the tank? I think the prudent move here is to bend the tangs back and rotate the float a little more toward the center of the tank.

I still need to pull the trigger on the dry sump (additional parts) to complete out that system. I have been dragging my feet on that one.

I also figured that if I am dropping the engine and trans in the car, that the 'shifty' wooden frame I have been working off of to this point is probably no longer a good idea. I used this as justification to buy tires and the thing will be a roller soon :D

jforand

07-17-2020, 12:41 PM

Oh, also got a chance to run up the the National Corvette Museum (NCM) and met Mitch Wright face to face (well, mask to mask). Very cool and knowledgeable guy (of course everyone out here already knew that) and a great looking track. Thanks for the touring laps Mitch. Looking forward to getting something out there (818 or the Mustang).

Need to get working on the Mustang, I am going to take it up to VIR August 10 and 11!

Sgt.Gator

07-17-2020, 12:44 PM

I have one of Wayne's original VCP AWIC setups I'll be happy to sell for $595 + shipping.

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jforand

07-17-2020, 06:41 PM

Thanks Gator. I'll keep it in mind

jforand

07-18-2020, 04:49 PM

UGH, some disappointing hits today and yesterday.

CV Axles

The long awaited driveshafts finally arrived. Burned yet again by my STI hubs! I have an 08-09 6MT and I spent quite a bit of time talking with Jim at FFR and determining that the 02-07 axles would work with the transmission. He indicated that the major changes were electronic and not necessarily mechanical. Well, we spent so much time on that I forgot to mention that the outer hubs were STI and not WRX. So you guessed it, I have CV axles that have 24 splines instead of the needed 27. Man, coupled with the tough time getting the right bearings, hubs, hardware, and then fabricating caliper mounting brackets these STI knuckles have really been a serious pain for me. I have a note into FFR to see what if anything can be done to fix the situation. I really did not want to pay big money for custom Driveshaft Shop units, but I might not have a choice. I have not tried them in the transmission to see if that side works yet. I guess I would like to here from FFR first. If returning is an option I think engaging them in the trans is probably not a good move. I also looked into the Febest offerings a bit. I ended up buying those for the front and cut them down. The same part number shows it working for the rear outers. When I tried the trimmed off internals on the 80237. I did not count splines there but the joint (female) is too large for the shaft splines. Still have to take a measurement, but I think the shafts will be the same diameter as the shafts on the pre-assembled CV axles I just got rendering the Febest part useless. I guess that is not to say they might have one that would work, but they would need to help me find it.

Turbo

The turbo saga continues. Let me simply state that the compressor housing on a VF38 and VF39 are NOT compatible. The housing mates up fine, but the compressor impeller is significantly different. I suppose there might be an impeller out there that might be the final piece of the swap puzzle, but I need to talk with someone who knows what they are doing. The turbo nomenclature and specs are all over the place. I find it pretty impossible to make sense out of. I suppose it would spin, but with the huge impeller to case clearance all the efficiency and function goes out the window.

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OK, I'll stop the complaining.

jforand

04-13-2021, 10:39 AM

It has been quite some time since I posted. I figured I would give an exciting update.

First Start Feb 13th 2021, basically 1 year from getting the kit
First Drive April 3rd 2021. The drive could have actually been the same day as the first start, but I had not ordered the axles yet. I wanted to hear and see things before putting out the money to the Drive Shaft Shop. It took about 6.5 weeks to get the shafts from them. Waiting on those was worse than a kid waiting from Christmas!

https://youtu.be/oU7GHYU4Prc

This from the first real run, not counting going around the neighborhood twice at <25 mph and checking for leaks. I can't believe how well everything worked out. There were zero issues, never got to mid scale on the OEM temp gauge (no numbers...need to fix that), no weird noises, no leaks, brakes were well balanced and I worked on bedding pads a little bit, steering was good, though I would like a quicker rack. A few checks throughout showed some spilled oil being burned off the exhaust manifold heat shielding and the new turbo blanket was burning in (smells like a brand new muffler).

I shifted gears in the build to get the car running as fast and cheaply as possible. I needed to get past a bunch of analysis (and spending) paralysis and make some progress. It was very motivational once I committed to the path. This meant making the turbo parts I had work, reverted back to the OEM engine oil pump versus dry sump, and sticking with the stock wiring and ECU. It is now time to have a little fun with it and determine where I want to go from here.

jforand

04-13-2021, 10:48 AM

A couple still shots

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So this is basically the proof of concept and I want to have a bit of fun with it for a while before I get serious about the body and such. I think the next plan is to figure out the bare essentials to getting it through tech for some HPDE stuff. Tighten those things up and then just play for a while.

jforand

04-22-2021, 12:35 PM

Got the OMP seat mounted as well as a make shift boost gage. Went running around the parting lot a few more time to gather some info.

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As I figured, I was only getting about 8psi boost as I essentially had no turbo boost control restrictor pill in the circuit. I had made a few to try out and unfortunately had a small issue with the metric and USCS system and made a whole range of WAY to big restrictors. Not like that has ever bitten anyone before like maybe smashing a Mars lander in the surface of the plant. In this situation the lander would have just never landed, which is way better of a problem :D The smallest of these restrictors still produced 8 psi. I made another one at 0.040" which is just over 1mm. The stock 04 STI is supposed to have a 0.9mm pill but that is with the VF39 turbo and I am running a VF38 (not sure how different that is or not), plus I did not have a drill that small. Now I am seeing boost up in the 14-15 psi range so things are going the right way.

I did notice that I was unable to get above ~4500rpm without the engine cutting out. This was both on the 8 psi boost and the higher levels, in other words it is not overboost. I have an 08 6MT transmission that does not have a vehicle speed sensor (VSS) and an 04 ECU which is expecting the transmission to have it. In researching this more the service manual seems to indicate the ECU will cut fuel at 4800 rpm if it does not have a proper speed signal. Well, this describes my problem to a tee. I talked with iWire about their VSSPro and went ahead and ordered one. They were very confident that this is my issue as am I, fingers crossed. I set out on getting an ABS wheel sensor installed to plug into the VSSPro. I installed a front as that was as easy as it gets, then thought about potentially tuning on a dyno......no speed off the fronts. To the rear I go!!!!!

I have the STI knuckles so I had to come up with brackets for the Cadillac brakes. Now I had to figure out how to mount the sensor in the custom bracket. This was the solution

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Ah, waiting on the mail truck again.......

I really hope that this is the secret to unlocking the higher rpm bands. I did do some more research and found a few conversations on this forum about the VSS issues, which was reassuring.

jforand

04-22-2021, 12:43 PM

What is everyone doing for steering wheels?

The stock one has to go. I think I need at least 2" smaller diameter, something ~12". Definitely need a quick release and I'm not sure this all works well with the OEM column. My issue is space. My elbows are hitting the sides of the seat and I can't chicken wing out my elbows as they hit the cockpit cage. As I flip my hands from the 3/9 positions through a 180 degree wheel turn I get interference. A lot like trying to lick your elbow. A smaller wheel and possible a bit higher mounting of the column will hopefully be the answer.

If I do stick with the OEM column I will need to pay close attention to the depth associated with an adapter hub, quick release and true that up with an augment steering wheel dishing.

fletch

04-22-2021, 01:00 PM

DSR-3

04-22-2021, 01:00 PM

jforand

04-22-2021, 02:50 PM

There's a huge amount of adjustment (aka crush zone) in the OEM column. We are using the FFR steering wheel, a hub adapter (trimmed down), and an NRG quick release. Of course, ours is going to be a street car. Happy to take photos & dimensions of everything if you like.

I was actually wondering about how the column telescopes. There are the two outer tubes (they don't rotate and can be used for mounting) that slide within each other and then the rotating shaft. The change in length all happens at the slip joint of the outer tubes correct (the rotating shaft would need to change as well via splines or something but that is all internal to the column)? In other words, all the geometry up and the taper/splines to mount the wheel and column mounting points all stay locked in their relative positions. So if I wanted to lengthen the column an inch to get the wheel closer to me then I would slide those tubes apart and inch, but would then need to move the column mounting point one inch closer to me to realize the change.

Is that the way it works?

You liking the NRG? It seems to be pretty nice and hopefully does not have any slop in the connection.

jforand

04-22-2021, 02:56 PM

I like my Sparco L505. Maybe larger than you're looking for, but much smaller and I would make old-man-sounds at very low speeds, and that's when others can hear them more.
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If you install a quick release, get a high quality one.

Nice looking wheel. It appears to be about 13.5" in diameter, unfortunately that does not solve my spatial issues. I keep locking in things making the next decision that much more important. Pedals forward, seat as low and far back as possible, column in, now I have to make it work with the wheel. I wish there was a way to test things....100 for the adaptor, 200 (or more) for the QR, and 250ish for a wheel is just an expensive proposition to get wrong.

Ajzride

04-22-2021, 03:03 PM

fletch

04-22-2021, 04:04 PM

You can collapse the Column about 4”. Long Island did a thread on it a while back.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10668-longislandwrx-Insert-Cool-Nickname-Here-Build-Thread&p=150494&viewfull=1#post150494

There’s no need to tap things with hammers. The outer sleeve has pinch points where the inner sleeve enters. Just squeeze the outer sleeve in a vice there and push or pull the inner sleeve wherever you want it to go. I’m not sure if you can lengthen the column beyond OEM configuration. We needed to shorten ours.

roadrashrob

04-22-2021, 05:26 PM

jforand

04-23-2021, 08:54 AM

There’s no need to tap things with hammers. The outer sleeve has pinch points where the inner sleeve enters. Just squeeze the outer sleeve in a vice there and push or pull the inner sleeve wherever you want it to go. I’m not sure if you can lengthen the column beyond OEM configuration. We needed to shorten ours.

Well that is a SUPER secret! I have seen some of the column manipulation stuff out here and there is all kinds of hammering to shorten and cargo strapping to pull back out an over shortened unit.

Hopefully I will not need to lengthen anything. I need to get serious about the wheel solution. I haven't attempted to add this stuff up, but I am assuming that an adapter and a QR will add at least 2-3 maybe 4 inches to the overall length. There is about 3-4" of dish in the OEM so it stands to reason that a flat wheel and the QR setup would position the wheel at roughly the same distance as the OEM without the QR. I think if I had my way entirely I would like the wheel back another inch or so, but I think with the high sides of the full containment seat I am going to worsen my elbow clearance issue.

Heading to Washington DC next week for a meeting and a quick visit with the brother. They have a shop up there (OP racing I think) that is supposed to have a great selection of stuff you can put your hands on. Hoping to gain some insight there and it might make the credit card a bit lighter as well. WIN WIN.

STiPWRD

04-23-2021, 10:44 AM

Heading to Washington DC next week for a meeting and a quick visit with the brother. They have a shop up there (OP racing I think) that is supposed to have a great selection of stuff you can put your hands on. Hoping to gain some insight there and it might make the credit card a bit lighter as well. WIN WIN.
By chance, did you mean OG racing in sterling VA? That's about 10 minutes from me. Shoot me a PM if you'd like to stop by and go for a spin.

jforand

04-23-2021, 01:42 PM

By chance, did you mean OG racing in sterling VA? That's about 10 minutes from me. Shoot me a PM if you'd like to stop by and go for a spin.

I did. Sent you a PM. It would be great to connect. Your FSMs have been invaluable to me. Many thanks again.

jforand

04-26-2021, 08:38 AM

Level 4801-7100 UNLOCKED!

The iWire VSS Pro worked perfectly. She pulls like a scalded dog all the way to redline. The speedo even came to life and it is counting miles again. I now feel inclined to zero out the register.

jforand

04-26-2021, 09:04 AM

Does anyone know how to mount the windshield support piece (the curved black fiberglass piece)? It isn't the best most zoomed in pic, but all I had on hand at the time of posting. You can probably see that I have attached my brake/clutch reservoir to it, which means it is pretty essential at this time. I can not find any real good info in the manual (818S) or the R supplemental. It seems this thing has quite a bit of slop in the mounting location and I kind of need to start at the side panels and work all the way back to the proper placement. I really hope that is not the case. Does it come forward all the way until it hits the fender/ hood brackets welded to the chassis, do you push it back off of those for clearance? Do you mount the dash and then line this up with the dash and it is where it is? I see people rivet or screw into the forward lower angled chassis bars on the front lip, but what about the back? There are only to kind of funky alignment touch point as it crosses over the front roll bar. It does not seem a rivet there would be very reliable.

I'll try and shoot a couple different pics to show the areas of concern

146957

jforand

04-26-2021, 06:34 PM

K3LAG

04-26-2021, 06:43 PM

K3LAG,

This one is for you. I believe this looks a little different from the ones you can do (I guess STI versus WRX). Oh well, I guess she is going to start life at 75202 then.... I appreciate you trying to help.

146987

Actually, that does appear to have an 8-pin DIP. I don't have any images of an STI cluster but if you sent me your cluster I could make one and change the chip. I had heard all the STI's were surface mount but maybe the older ones aren't. Unless they did something weird on the other side of the board that should work.

This is the image I had intended to put in the PM:

146988
Larry

jforand

04-26-2021, 09:28 PM

Actually, that does appear to have an 8-pin DIP. I don't have any images of an STI cluster but if you sent me your cluster I could make one and change the chip. I had heard all the STI's were surface mount but maybe the older ones aren't. Unless they did something weird on the other side of the board that should work.

This is the image I had intended to put in the PM:

146988
Larry

Well that is good news. I was trying to get to the other side, but it was fighting me and I did not want to break anything in a rush. I could verify the other side with another pic if you provide the secret to getting the board out. It looked like there were maybe 6 metal tabs that needed to be straightened plus the plastic snap hooks.

Also, you could PM me the address to ship the cluster to if things look like they are going to work out.

blomb11

04-27-2021, 05:01 PM

I did notice that I was unable to get above ~4500rpm without the engine cutting out. This was both on the 8 psi boost and the higher levels, in other words it is not overboost. I have an 08 6MT transmission that does not have a vehicle speed sensor (VSS) and an 04 ECU which is expecting the transmission to have it. In researching this more the service manual seems to indicate the ECU will cut fuel at 4800 rpm if it does not have a proper speed signal. Well, this describes my problem to a tee. I talked with iWire about their VSSPro and went ahead and ordered one. They were very confident that this is my issue as am I, fingers crossed. I set out on getting an ABS wheel sensor installed to plug into the VSSPro. I installed a front as that was as easy as it gets, then thought about potentially tuning on a dyno......no speed off the fronts. To the rear I go!!!!!

I have the STI knuckles so I had to come up with brackets for the Cadillac brakes. Now I had to figure out how to mount the sensor in the custom bracket. This was the solution

146696

146697

Do you just need to use the 2 rear wheel ABS sensors with the VSSPro module? Or do you need all 4 wheel sensors? I think I am going to have to do this too since my transmission does not have the VSS built in. I am also going to make my own Cadillac brackets but for WRX hubs.

jforand

04-27-2021, 06:54 PM

Do you just need to use the 2 rear wheel ABS sensors with the VSSPro module? Or do you need all 4 wheel sensors? I think I am going to have to do this too since my transmission does not have the VSS built in. I am also going to make my own Cadillac brackets but for WRX hubs.

Well this is your luck day!.

First it is just a single wheel sensor that is required for the VSS Pro. Actually it will only accept one. I chose the rear as it would be necessary for any dyno work, at least I think. I guess I cannot say for certain that a speed signal of zero causes the problem versus the lack of a sensor/signal at all. In other words, the ECU see a missing or failed device. I suppose I could test this by simply seeing if I can rev past 4800 just sitting in the garage. If I can then it might not matter if you chose a front sensor, that would have been easier at least for me.

The VSS Pro is only needed if your ECU is expecting the speed signal from the transmission VSS. Not sure of the exact year, but some where are 07ish they switched. They might have even switch in different years based on WRX versus STI. The key is matching the ECU expectation tot he sensor. If it is the later style it is looking for a wheel sensor already and you would just wire that into the ECU via the OEM harness and you should be good. I got crossed up as my ECU is 04 and the transmission is 08.

Second lucky thing. I happen to have a set of the rear Cadillac brackets for a WRX hub. I found out I could not use them when i went to mount them on the STI hub. More than willing to sell them to you.

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Not sure how far along you are or your donor situation, but I also have the rear arms all redone white powder coating and new polyurethane bushings. With the R chassis and lower ride height you use the top suspension mounting holes and they are upsized to use 5/8" hardware and not the OEM nuts and bolts. I also found this out after I spent the time and money redoing them. If they are of interest to you that could be worked out as well.

147025 147026 147027

Bob_n_Cincy

04-27-2021, 09:16 PM

blomb11

04-27-2021, 09:57 PM

jforand

04-28-2021, 09:25 PM

My solution for running an older (04) ECU with a new (12) transmission was to add a sensor to the front wheel.
147041
I cut five notches in the old CV-joint cup and add a $20 sensor. It works great for the ECU and the dash speedometer.
If I go for a dyno tune, I will have to find a way to move this to a rear wheel. Maybe sensing the head of the wheel studs.
Bob

Interesting. I thought the spacing of the signal pulse had to be calibrated to the expected signal. In other words if there are 5 pulses/rev versus 30 pules/rev that would generate vastly different speed numbers. I ended up just bolting the ABS tone ring back onto the hub and figured out how to remount the OEM wheel sensor. This was an STI hub though, not sure how the WRX hub ABS worked. The front has the tone ring on the CV stub axle socket, unlike the rear ring bolted to the hub.

So cool to see and hear the different solutions!

jforand

04-28-2021, 09:33 PM

From what I read on iWire it’s 05+ LGT and 08+ Impreza that no longer have the VSS on the transmission. I have an 06 WRX and an 05 LGT 6 speed transmission. I think I will follow your lead and try using a rear sensor for speed and incase of a dyno day.

I would definitely be interested in buying you Cadillac brackets. I will send you a PM. I didn’t get any donor trailing arms or lateral links with my donor parts. I thought the R kit came with the swaged tubes for the lateral links and then I was going to buy aftermarket trailing arms so I can run wider wheels. Am I wrong and the kit doesn’t come with lateral links?

Yes, that was the source I had found the swap years as well, just could not remember the details. It appears you might be in the same boat. Replied to the PM. I did not order my kit so I am not an expert on the options for extras or omissions, but I only got the upper swedge tubes and nothing for the lower laterals, those came from the donor.

Bob_n_Cincy

04-29-2021, 02:14 AM

Interesting. I thought the spacing of the signal pulse had to be calibrated to the expected signal. In other words if there are 5 pulses/rev versus 30 pules/rev that would generate vastly different speed numbers. I ended up just bolting the ABS tone ring back onto the hub and figured out how to remount the OEM wheel sensor. This was an STI hub though, not sure how the WRX hub ABS worked. The front has the tone ring on the CV stub axle socket, unlike the rear ring bolted to the hub.

So cool to see and hear the different solutions!

I suspect that the VSSPRO box is a divider of tone ring pulses to vss pulses. I was pretty lucky that 5 pulses on a 24" diameter tire gave me an accurate speedo.

blomb11

04-29-2021, 11:48 AM

Yes, that was the source I had found the swap years as well, just could not remember the details. It appears you might be in the same boat. Replied to the PM. I did not order my kit so I am not an expert on the options for extras or omissions, but I only got the upper swedge tubes and nothing for the lower laterals, those came from the donor.

In the 818R supplemental instructions it provides the list of parts required to make the adjustable swaged lower lateral links. So you are correct they either come from the donor or you make them.

jforand

04-30-2021, 07:37 AM

I suspect that the VSSPRO box is a divider of tone ring pulses to vss pulses. I was pretty lucky that 5 pulses on a 24" diameter tire gave me an accurate speedo.

Yeah, that would be crazy lucky. I have now idea what the signals are. I know there is a canbus and non canbus issue with my parts. I'm a mechanical guy, not electrical so I have no idea if there are differing protocols or if it is a simply pulse rate converter/adjuster.

Glad it worked out for both of us.

jforand

05-16-2021, 06:25 PM

UH OH, I broke the car!

So I was making final last tweaks to get ready for VIR coming up in the end of June and it occurred to me I needed a GoPro solution. The batteries are horrible so I wanted a plug in power supply. I ended up hooking the power supply up to the hot lug on the alternator with the ground on the intake manifold.

The bad news is that I of course did not disconnect the battery (shaking my head). The socket touched the intake while on the alternator bolt and shorted briefly.

The problem - Car will not start, it lights up the dash, turns over fine, might try to hit initially, but then never again.

I have chased down all the fuses and they are fine
ECU does not show any codes that would make sense (just the fuel temp and no TGV) Codes for reference (P0183 - Fuel Temp, P1086 - TGV related, P1088 - TGV related, P1094 - TGV related, P1096 - TGV related)
I have pulled the rear two spark plugs and see a nice strong spark
I have verified fuel in the tank and both hear and see a strong flow of fuel pumping and coming back to the tank

To me it seems that the ECU is not sending a signal to fire the injectors (fuel cut essentially)

Any ideas?
Is there a way to test the ECU functionality?
Any spare '04 STI ECUs out there? 22611AJ242 is my part number. It seems that there is a 22611AJ243 that supersedes 22611AJ240, 22611AJ241, 22611AJ242
How do I figure out what ECUs will work with the car? It seems there are a lot of ECUs out there, but very few STI ones.

Jetfuel

05-16-2021, 08:37 PM

Can you zip lock bag a few injectors and crank over to see if fuel fills the bags???

Bob_n_Cincy

05-16-2021, 08:58 PM

Any ideas?

jforand
This is the path of the fault current during your described accident. Let's start at the battery plus terminal.
Battery plus terminal to the Main fuse box lug.
Fuse SBF-1 100amp
Main fuse box connector F35 pin 1 and 2 wired to alternator power lug.
Alternator housing to the engine block.
The engine block to the negative battery lug.

You need to check all the above connections to be sure something isn't fried.
I kinda suspect that you lost ground to your engine block.
Bob

Ajzride

05-16-2021, 10:25 PM

I have Bob’s old 2004 FXT ECU. I’m not sure if it is a straight swap for you or not. If it is, I can send to you for testing.

Bob_n_Cincy

05-17-2021, 07:17 AM

I have Bob’s old 2004 FXT ECU. I’m not sure if it is a straight swap for you or not. If it is, I can send to you for testing.
Pin out is a straight swap. But 04FXT is tuned for a TD04 turbo and 04STI has VF39.

mikeb75

05-17-2021, 07:58 AM

I had a similar issue once (accidental shorting of a hot terminal). SBF-1 was what popped; I'd start there.

blomb11

05-17-2021, 09:07 AM

I have an 05 STI ECU (22611AJ931) that I am going to be selling if it comes down to the ECU.

Ajzride

05-17-2021, 09:54 AM

Pin out is a straight swap. But 04FXT is tuned for a TD04 turbo and 04STI has VF39.

I would assume the tune is close enough to see if it will fire and verify the ECU is the issue, but I wouldn't run it very long.

jforand

05-17-2021, 12:49 PM

Wow, lots of activity on this issue.

So the current facts as I know them

-All fuses have been checked by using a grounded volt meter and checking for voltage on both sides of the fuse. All fuses with the exception of 4 had 12V on each side. The 4 that were depowered on both sides were associated with lights (head lights, tail lights) and should have had no power.
-Depowering the ECU for the night and trying again in the morning had no effect
-Saturating the air cleaner in starter fluid resulted in the engine starting and running perfect for about 1 minute until the filter dried out
-This means to me all is good with everything not fuel delivery oriented
-Took out the injectors on the driver's side
-Hooked them to a can of brake clean to pressurize them and tapped them off to 12V. They both operated perfectly with forceful, even spray
-Tried to measure the signal to the injector. I do not have trust here as the signal is pulsed very quickly and a multimeter is not designed for that
-Result was nothing above 0.5V on either harness connector and it was a variable signal. Is this the true max (e.g. not good) or is this some weird truncated average nonsensical number (meaning the signal could be correct)?
-Based on there being fuel pressure and functioning injectors I am inclined to say the signal to the injector is the issue. If it was pulsing (delivering fuel) the engine would start as the starter fluid demonstrated.

I think I might have a small oscilloscope. Going to see if I can find that and see if I can get a signal reading

The injector drivers are on the ECU board as I understand it. There is really nothing in between the ECU and the injector (not even a fuse). If the signal isn't being sent it would be my thought that it is either a bad ECU or there is something telling the ECU to cut fuel.

Ajzride, I do like the idea of using the 04 Forester ECU to test things. What Bob says about the turbo is correct, it should be a VF39. I however have a Frankenstein and mine has 06 forester heads and intake, a VF38 twin scroll from I think an 06 Legacy, a short block modified with forged internals from I think an '04 STI. All the electronics are an '04 STI. It would be super nice to know the ECU fixed the issue before dropping the money for an OEM new unit. The '04 STI seems to be a very rare bird and I cannot find a single used one available. There is a company out there that refurbs ECU (AutoECMstore) that will sell for 525 with a 100 core refund and they have a 75 restocking fee if you want to use them for diagnostics. I would prefer a new unit versus theirs for the cost difference, but the 75 versus 600 cost difference for the diagnostic is a tough pill to swallow. I'm going to try and lock down the signal a bit more. I will also meter out the 4 conductors from the ECU out to the injectors. I'll PM you if I think your test offer is a way forward. Much appreciated.

Bob, I agree with your path of the short. It is all big honking stuff and this was a very small (magnitude and duration) short. I have seen much much worse. Not a single blown fuse and I really do not think any conductors (wires) were damaged. I used the braided ground strap from the engine to the chassis and it is perfectly fine. I see no issues of cooking at all anywhere that I can see. Of course I spent the last 3 days wrapping up the wiring harness so much is not visible. It really does not make sense to me how something off the path would get cooked, but I am a mechanical guy and know enough about electricity to know it does weird things at times.

Jetfuel, it is a bit tough to test the injector as the fuel pressure will blow the injector out of the fuel rail if it is not mechanically locked in there. You would need a setup rig of some sort. So I think I isolated it by proving the car will run if it has fuel (starter fluid) and that the injector will fire and spray if presented with 12V. I do not have a fuel pressure gage, but I can say the pump runs fine, sounds the same, and returns a strong stream back to the tank. There is no perceptible difference in fuel pump performance that I can tell.

Bob_n_Cincy

05-17-2021, 03:31 PM

I suspect your problem is the loss of ground on pin D7 of your ECU (black/orange wire). It supplies the ground for the pulses to the fuel injectors.

Personal note: I do not trust ground straps for control level signals. I ran a separate #6awg wire from the battery negative to the engine block.
Bob

jforand

05-17-2021, 04:32 PM

Bob, would you be willing to talk through a few things on the phone? Is so please PM me a number that would work. I went and found D7, which I believe is connector B137 on my STI. It is the top right corner and is indeed a Black wire with Orange stripe. I unplugged he connector from the ECU and measured ohms from the connector to a variety of ground locations on the car and all came in at 0.4 Ohms. As a small side note mu fluke does not do well with small resistance measurements. For instance, touching the two probes together yields 0.2 ohms in lieu of the zero (or very close to it) you would hope to see on a dead short.

jforand

05-17-2021, 05:54 PM

I had a bit of an epiphany that the ECU is not sending 12V signal to the injectors. The 12V is sitting on the injector and the ECU is completing the circuit to ground. In other words, Subaru is switching the neutral/ground side and not the hot. In my past I did some building automation and it was always considered bad form to switch the neutral/ground side of things.

So I have verified that I have 12V sitting on the injectors when the key is in the ON position. I have further verified the integrity of the conductors from the injectors all the way back to the ECU. It does not appear that the circuit is able to connect the injector to the vehicle ground as Bob has suggested, but I cannot determine a defect anywhere outside the ECU.

aquillen

05-18-2021, 03:08 PM

Can't think of more than others have suggested so far. If you run out of things to check and try, and want to part with the ECU for a short while, ship it up to me and I'll go through it internally. If you did manage damage inside it, there may be something to find in there. Best luck would be a tiny bit of blown trace on the foil and even more luck that after correcting that, no other internals were damaged. I can check a fair amount of what's inside 4 you. By the same token the ones I've been inside (3 so far) the injection and spark circuits are obvious and some of those parts replaceable. sent you PM with contact info

J R Jones

05-18-2021, 04:28 PM

My EFI trouble shooting was similar, but not a Subaru. I bought a non-running C4 Corvette and trouble shooting suggested the injectors were not firing.
I replaced the ECU with a Standard Parts ECU. No help.
Coincidentally the system ran 12V to the injectors and switched ground to fire. Separate circuits to the left and right banks. The malfunction was common to both.
My son suggested a Noid Light which plugs into the injector plug. I think it was OK.

The fuel rail had a test fitting. I pulled the core and used a hose to couple it to a hand held injector. The external injector would squirt.
Eventually I found the system would fire one injector OK but as I plugged-in additional injectors the external injector squirt diminished to a dribble.
I determined the ground signals from the ECU were weak. I replaced the ECU again, and the engine ran OK.
jim

aquillen

05-18-2021, 06:20 PM

If there is even one ground wire out of that ECU that goes to chassis, battery somehow, NOT through the group of grounds to the ECU from the manifold/block then you can have a pathway for a part of that short circuit current to pass through the circuit board inside the ECU... In through the manifold ground group and out through that wire or wires - this is how internals get can get damaged (for example) if you short the alt or gen battery power lead to the engine/manifold. Most of the current pulse will go through the strap or other "main" ground from the engine to the chassis/battery negative terminal, but some will typically follow any other ground path available (and the ECU just isn't made for more than a few amps at most). Sort of like a lightning bolt that splits up into more than one path from sky to ground.

jforand

05-18-2021, 06:38 PM

Interesting story on the ECU replacement. Man, replacing it twice is a real bummer.

Aquillen, I appreciate the offer. We'll see what happens. I did open up the ECU and I did not see (or smell) anything obvious. There are a lot of small parts in there and I don't have a good magnifier.

Here is the latest.

A HUGE thanks to Bob (Bob n Cincy) for jumping on the phone with me latest last night (1am was the hung up time). You are a trooper.

So it was Bob's thought that it was not my ECU and after talking through things quite a bit I was pretty much on the band wagon with him. It did not make sense how I got to it. The short had a great path from the power and a great path straight back to the negative terminal. It really should have bypassed most everything.

So long story short I checked, recorded, and compared every single voltage coming out of the ECU against the manual's expected readings/specs. I ended up with 3 big problem areas and about 4 very slightly out of spec areas but not hugely alarming. I set out to repeat the anomalies and was not able to reproduce two of them. In fact, I proved I swapped the data in the recording process which was awesome as that got me down to one serious smoking gun.

Fuel Pump Control Unit Signal 2 - Plug B137 Terminal 28 should be showing 12V and mine is at 0.
Fuel Pump Control Unit Signal 1 - Checked out to within spec.

I then checked out the circuit from the ECU to the Fuel Pump Controller (highlighted in yellow) and it checked out fine. I then set out to find where the 12V was supposed to be coming from and that was fine and being presented to the FPC on Terminal 10 as it should be. It seems that the FPC will not pass the 12V through the controller and out on Terminal 9 to head back to the ECU. This is a pretty big smoking gun for a car that isn't getting fuel. I really hope this is it as I have found absolutely nothing else to raise an eyebrow.

I found a used controller on ebay and am anxiously awaiting its arrival. Way cheaper than an unobtainium '04 STI ECU!

148028 148029

ajzride, if you haven't shipped the ECU yet I think we can how off and not trouble you with a trip to the post office at this time. Much appreciated.

Ajzride

05-18-2021, 10:16 PM

You can bypass the FPCM and just put keyed power on the pump for testing purposes.

jforand

05-19-2021, 01:34 AM

Ajzride, bypassing has been on my mind tonight. I will have to look and see if I can do this safely. The pump definitely runs. I think the ECU is not seeing the 12 volt signal 2 and somewhere in the properly operating code is saying don’t fire the injectors….. I was wondering if I could just deliver 12V to the ECU terminal and then try the key again. Seems that should be doable, but will debate more tomorrow. I would love to prove this out without wasting a week waiting for the new FPC to arrive only to find it isn’t the issue.

Art, you very eloquently explained exactly why I do not like electrical and went mechanical. Mechanical follows the rules! It always seemed to me that electrical was always, “well, it should do this but it might do this”. Usually followed by a shock:D

Ajzride

05-19-2021, 07:15 AM

aquillen

05-19-2021, 08:53 AM

Art, you very eloquently explained exactly why I do not like electrical and went mechanical. Mechanical follows the rules! It always seemed to me that electrical was always, “well, it should do this but it might do this”. Usually followed by a shock:D

With mechanical stuff you can see it, at least some times. Electrical you have to use your imagination, unless it's black and crusty.

jforand

05-19-2021, 09:21 AM

I think I mis-understood your statement. I do not believe there are any signals from the FPCM to the ECU, only signals form the ECU to the FPCM. If you are FPCM is pumping, the should not be the source of your problem.

So that was part of my hesitation in “the bypass”. It is tough to tell which way the 12V is supposed to come from. 12V is definitely passed to the FPC on pin 10. Pin 9 connects over to the ECU and is supposed to have 12V on it while the car sits with key on and not running. That 12V is not there and I can’t tell if it is supposed to come from the FPC (internally passed from pin 10) or the ECU itself. You test the ECU signals with everything plugged in so it is either hot to ground or not, but it can be made hot from either direction. In my case neither direction is making it hot. I guess I have it surrounded.

I wanted to verify fuel in the tank and I have not grown to love my fuel gauge yet so I opened up the tank by pulling the level sensor out. You can very clearly hear the pump energize when the key cycles to ON (even without the tank open). You can also hear a stream of gas discharging back into the tank. With the tank open you can also see the surface of the gas disrupted with decent wave action from the return stream. So it is doing what it needs to do in the beginning I believe, but I guess I can’t say it is doing what it needs to do during the actual start/run portion. The ECU pin out says there are two signals (1 and 2) form the FPC. One of which is missing.

Maybe it is still a good idea to have the ECU as a potential backup. I won’t see the FPC until at least Monday. If it isn’t too big of a pain please do mail it. As mentioned I will return it with postage when I can.

aquillen

05-19-2021, 10:25 AM

I've got a document set that is SUPPOSED to be for 04 STi. Section [ 02. Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) Detecting Criteria.pdf ] covers a fuel pump trouble code P0230, where it shows interconnect and a bit of info on the ECU - Pump controller. The diagnostic code tells that the ECU is finding a connection short or open between it and the controller. It does NOT give P0230 just because the pump controller is not sending back an OK, I'm working signal. I did not find a code where that is done (seems strange they wouldn't code on that though - I missed it ??).

My take away is the ECU sends FPC signal to turn on the pump control. Whether this is a variable voltage or a pulsed signal that tells the controller to vary pump speed based on ECU's injector pulse duration (i.e. please vary pump speed based on engine power demand) or just run/don't run, I didn't read. But I'm pretty sure it is indeed a pump speed signal since the whole idea of using a pump controller vs a relay is to vary the pump speed to reduce noise, fuel heating, less power waste, longer pump life, whatever take your pick rather than run the pump full on when it doesn't have to run full on. Otherwise a relay like in older cars would be all we need. The second connection is labeled DI which is a DIagnosis signal back to the ECU saying the controller deems itself "OK" or something along those lines. Which one of this is signal 1 vs signal 2 in the ECU connection listing is not clear, but my gut says the Sig 1 is the RUN command and Sig 2 is the OK back to the ECU. Your note in the picture above suggests no "OK" (not getting 12V) back to ECU. Hmmmm.

You either replace the pump control from Ebay and see, or you break into the fuel line and get a pressure gage. Other tricks, rig up an led circuit and tack it into an injector connector to see if getting pulses, or scope the injectors. Put a screwdriver to your ear and try to listen to injectors clicking, or other tests of a more specific design rather than swapping parts (which you will probably end up doing in the end...

2008 STi service info shows the 12V line is the Controller to the ECU "I'm OK". A 2008 Tech training document says the 12V line is from the ECU to the controller saying "ok to run the pump, engine is running", so conflicting info. Bottom line though, swapping parts may be the easiest route as you are doing. Also describes a "fuel pump duty cycle control of 33% 66% or 100% run pump speed",

jforand

05-19-2021, 11:19 AM

The last time I scanned I had the following codes:

0183 fuel temp
1446 fuel tank sensor control valve circuit low
1400 fuel tank pressure control solenoid valve circuit low
0458 evaporative emissions purge control valve
0447 evaporative emissions vent circuit open
0037 HO2S Heater Control Circuit Low (this one I can't remember seeing......not sure if that hurts anything) I read that the injectors are governed off the Engine Coolant Temp sensor for startup. It then switches over tot he 1st O2 sensor.
1094 TGV stuff
1096 TGV stuff
1086 TGV stuff
1088 TGV stuff

Most all of these have been there from the beginning as I deleted the TGVs and the emissions related stuff. They did not cause operational issues. The O2 one might be newer. I will have to check an old capture.

Signal 1 is a 0 or 5V signal in a waveform. This seems to be to probably be the speed modulation signal and it checks at 0V
Signal 2 is a 10-13V (so 12V) straight up and that one is 0V. This should not be this way. This is a small gauge conductor to support this 12V so it is more of a signal. It is definitely not running the pump. It is also not triggering the Fuel pump relay. This goes straight into the FPCM on pin 9. Again, I don't know if this 12V signal is coming from the ECU to the FPCM or if it is FPCM to the ECU.

I think I will try for a fuel pressure gauge today just to get that clearly determined. I actually have an old mini o scope, but I am knowledgeable enough to be dangerous with it and that is about it. I tried to look at an injector, but was not getting much sensible info. I could get the trace at zero and then to jump up to 12V just measuring a 12V source (seemed like success). So then I moved over to the injector and just sitting there with the key off I got a jagged waveform varying between +/- 5V. This did not make a lot of sense. When turning the key the wave jumped off the screen big and I don't really know how to fix it. I believe I have it set at 5V/grid line so unless that changed (some sort of auto mode in the background) I don't know what it is telling me.

I like the led trick for the injector. Might give that a go as well. I replaced the LED on my 97 BMW Z3 key fob. and since I had LEDs I also replaced the LED on my garage door opener button on the wall. It is now blue and matches the Mustang! It died so it needed to be fixed and I just picked a blue one. The good news is I have 498 of them left :D

Ajzride

05-19-2021, 12:50 PM

jforand

05-19-2021, 03:25 PM

It certainly seems that the "I'm OK" signal back from the FPCM could be an issue, but my FPCM is completely disconnected and the engine still runs, so I'm not sure that it is really required. I am running an 06 WRX, not an 04 STI.

Hmm, that is surprising. I had to order a fuel pressure gauge so that is another waiting game. I decided to just pull the fuel line and stick it in a cup. It pumps an ounce or two when flipping to ON, It then pumps again about 2 ounces while cranking the engine (2-3 seconds of crank time on the key)

The interesting part for you is that when I first tried this nothing pumped. Again, with the not repeatable stuff. Then I realized the FPCM was sitting in the kitchen table. Plugged it in and got the results above. In the basic OEM config I have it will not pump without the FPCM.

This is kind of wearing me down. There are some key errors I. The documentation and it is really throwing a kink into things. I went through Diagnostics for Engine Start Failure C: Control Module Power and Ground EN(STI)-58 and 59. The last checkout on 59 failed (all others good). It says B137 terminal 17 should have 12V to the main relay. I have 0V. If you go back to page 58 and look at the diagram it shows 12v basically straight from the battery to the other side of the relay coil. So in order to fire the relay B137 ,17 would need to be a ground, not hot. My main fires and the two poles make contact and pass what they are supposed to pass so I think this is a documentation error.

The you flip forward to E. Fuel Pump Circuit and check number 1 is does the pump make noise? If yes you are done in this section, head over to the injectors. So it would see to point back to the ECU holding back injectors either because it is broken or there is something saying “hey, not ok to supply fuel”. When you go to the Injector Section it chases all the stuff I have basically chased. There is voltage on the injectors, they physically work if signaled, and all the harness wires check out. It does not cover the ECU not firing them. It seems I exhausted this document.

148121 148122 148123

Ajzride

05-19-2021, 04:18 PM

Yea, it seems like your ECU has lost the ability to ground, either through some internal damage or a melted wire you haven't found yet.

jforand

05-19-2021, 05:04 PM

Yea, it seems like your ECU has lost the ability to ground, either through some internal damage or a melted wire you haven't found yet.

That would be one mode of failure. The interesting thing is that there is a page in the diagnostic on the ECU and it takes you through ALL of the Grounds and Power Supplies tot he ECU and they all check out perfect. That was step two on the page with pink highlight. 9 different wires to ground and they are all 0.2-0.3 ohms to chassis ground, which is what my meter pretty much reads when I touch the leads together. Two different power sources and they are both 12V hot.

I am really tempted to jump 12V power over to terminal 9 on the FPCM that runs back to the ECM and see if that sends an "ok to supply fuel" command to the ECU and then the software does its thing. If the docs did not have so many issues with cutting and pasting I would feel more comfortable doing it. The way it is documented in my stuff it is supposed to have 12V on it so I should not damage anything by jumping it over to it....of course I could also let the smoke out of it. The safest thing would be to wait for the FPCM to come in the mail on or around Monday.

Man, I am like the guy who can't leave anything alone. I can't wait for the mail and yes, I stick my finger in the wet paint several times before it is dry! It would just be so cool to put 12V on it, hear it fire up and put an end to this mess. My bet is I won't make it through the weekend without trying it.

aquillen

05-19-2021, 07:36 PM

I didn't tell you to do this, but if you go putting 12V on that - do it through a 10K ohm resistor first, then if still not a go, try a 1K ohm. I'd stop at that point. Using a resister much less likely (but no guarantee) of tearing things up inside either end. If it is a signal level thing (and the one circuit image I saw in the diags I was looking at suggested a resister was in there as a pull up anyway) then a resistor may be sufficient to make it happy, but safer than just hitting it full on with 12V.

Injector pulse display - LED - circuit. Didn't test this, just cooked it up for you. You can't just patch an LED in there - will be toast in one pulse. And might not flash on long enough to see even if it would work in the raw. There are some LED's with built in resistors (some are rated for 12V) and one could be just put across the injector plug - might see it in a dark room, if that is what you have. Most LEDs are only 1.7V to 2.7V, give or take, depending on color, you have to current limit with resistor or POOF!

This circuit charges a capacitor during the on pulse so it can keep the LED on a little longer from the capacitor discharging after the pulse, give you time to see it flash. Should stretch the light so you can see it - might still need subdued lighting. Don't have the injector itself connected with this, not needed and inductive kick from injector (might) kill this circuit. Must get polarity connected correctly or no LED light. 10 ohm resistor satisfies ECU that injector circuit is completed, without the actual injector connected, low wattage resistor fine since this is only a short pulse of on time and in a pinch a 1/4 watt would probably be just fine. Any 1N4001 through 1N4007 is fine... Some Radio Shack stores still around and would typically have this. Have one (Shack) in my little country town right here, inside Ace Hardware. Maybe you can get parts quick.

https://res.cloudinary.com/aq007/image/upload/v1621470251/Injector_Tester_rljnh3.jpg

jforand

05-19-2021, 09:17 PM

"I didn't tell you to do this", HAHA. Awesome stuff. And yes, I get it. people can be very dangerous.

You hit one thought and one other conversation I had today.

The LED I knew was going to be an issue with the lower voltage rating. I also surmised that it would be far too fast to even see it if it lit at all. Also correct with the polarity. Thanks for pointing it all out.

I was talking with the brother around 5:30 today (he is an EE) and he mentioned the resistor. He also had it in the same basic neighborhood as you do for impedance. Kind of fun what we have laying around. I was like "where the heck do I get a resistor?" he is like "you don't have them laying all around?" I'm like "no, but I have a spare air compressor and impact wrench behind the welder" Yes, the idea is to limit the current flow so it is basically a 12V signal only and no appreciable flow.

I think I am going to do my best to stay away from the car and just wait for the part to come in on Monday. There have got to be other things on the list I should be catching up with. My brother offered to ship a straight jacket to keep me from hurting things :) Now that I think about it, not sure why he has one and not sure I want to know!

Thanks for the circuit.