818 Project Updates From Dave

[Dave Smith]

Hey guys, sorry for the absence. I am looking at this project in stages and considering the scope of it and the potential to the company of a successful development, I think it wise to focus on goals and stages and NOT make bold predictions that don't come true. Also, this car/(s) has already been under development for some time when you consider that the tdi tech was started with the west philly high car two years ago and the gel coating/mold making work on the mk4 was started with being able to do paint-free panels. I guess what I'm saying is I want to talk about the stages we have completed as well as those that lie ahead to give you guys an accurate update on the project.

Let me start by reviewing the stages we've completed and then discuss the steps ahead.

[Dave Smith]

The earliest work on this project was related to the Mk4 Roadster, Local Motors, and the Gen 2 GTM. R&D Dir Jim Schenck was charged with the selection/identification of the next Factory Five. There was intense debate as there were two competing projects, this subaru-based sports car we've called the 818 and an off-road truck project (which was beaten back by the first).

We knew the 818 design goals and price targets would involve a paint-free body design (gel coat), so the work on the new Mk4 molds and red gel coat was done to prepare for that and learn about the process. That projects in one car affect others is by design, and the real chance that the 818 will be free from "requiring paint" is a result of the work done on the Mk4. I'm not saying the mk4 is a gel-coat only, paint free body (it is not), but that molding work got us close and helped us learn what we need to do on the 818 to reach that goal. Paint alone is a HUGE enemy of the completed car budget. Most may paint the car, but by having an option like gel coating, the car can be built for a real low budget.

[Dave Smith]

The export-capable basis of the 818 caused it to win out, while the car was only barely described with design goals. Jim went full speed ahead on the running gear and chassis design for the first car, while we went to the community on the body shaping work.

When Local Motors started out, they sought council from us and others as to what their first model should be. Jim's concept of the 818 was discussed and my concept of building a high-mileage capable car, essentially a GTM with a TDI engine in it. local Motors decided to go a different direction, and Jim and I kept to our beliefs about the next car. We were fortunate to have Simon Hauger from West Philly High School do ALL the development on the GTM powered by a TDI and the results were stunning. My crazy brother, who had not worked for 8 years was impatient and decided to take the TDI-GTM idea that I hatched in 2007 and start his own company. My opinion of that car has remained private, but I think he has made a number of wrong turns and FFR would NEVER design a kit car that way, never. Still, the concept of a build-it-yourself high mpg capable car is going to be part of the 818 evolution, only the right way! Jim's passion is for track cars and as the 10 year veteran director of our race series, is infinitely capable so the 818 was pulled in the performance direction.

So there we have it, the 818 needed to satisfy three distinct car niches, a literal Swatch-watch of cars with a chassis capable of being three distinct cars in one.

1. a $9,900 roadster based on impreza running gear (on the low end) and WRX running gear for max performance.
2. A high mpg capable car powered by a Audi/VW TDI mill/trans with the same Subaru remaining parts for value (brakes, spindles, etc), and modified super high-tech aero-coupe body
3. A track-focused 1800 lb. giant slayer with the same Subaru parts but upgraded chassis/cage, brakes from wilwood (done), shocks from Koni (done), modified body for competition to be on-par with the best but a budget to serve the everyman.

[Dave Smith]

As chassis design and running gear was selected, we decided to work with Grassroots Motorsports on the body design competition. We kept the design parameters as wide open as possible, knowing there were several likely masters to serve (track car, street budget car, mpg exotic coupe) and aslo not wanting to restrict the creative process, only keep it within some real world 818 chassis dimensions. It would turn out to be a great decision as the designs were really all over the map and ideas from many could contribute to the three design directions. That's where we ended the Open House a month ago, with the selection of winning designs, but the treasure trove of 700+ designs and perhaps as many as 100 really great ones along the three lines I described.

[riptide motorsport]

This should be enough info to keep us elaborating for quite some time!!

[thebeerbaron]

This should be enough info to keep us elaborating for quite some time!!

I disagree! Keep it comin' Dave, I don't care if I sleep through work tomorrow, gotta know more!

[Rockraven]

Thanks for the updates, Dave! One quick question... will all versions of the 818 be original body designs, or will you guys offer something based on a well-known, historic production/racing car?

[Dave Smith]

The next big stage/challenge is where we are right now. While there are a thousand smaller challenges (like the name of the car which you guys have done an exceptional job with!), the real big next stage is to select and make the body shape for the first car. The first car will HAVE to be the value priced roadster body as a build-it-yourself $9,900 kit with a completion target cost of sub $15,000. THESE ARE NOT FAIRY TALE PREDICTIONS, BUT RATHER SERIOUS AND WELL-CONSIDERED NUMBERS. Still, with 16 design winners and maybe 100 great designs, we need to see the cars in some real form before thinking that a concept car/drawing will translate perfectly into full size.

This next stage is BODY DESIGN. We will probably launch one car first and then follow up that launch with the other two models. Still there is no reason NOT to select the body shapes for all three distinct models based on 1/4 scale models. That is where we are now.

We are currently working on building the scale models and then will bring them to you guys here on-line for open debate. There is no path for all three cars that inlcudes a timeline.

[Ks2]

A track-focused 1800 lb. giant slayer with the same Subaru parts but upgraded chassis/cage, modified body for competition to be on-par with the best but a budget to serve the everyman.

compatible with STI motor and 6speed perhaps?

[thebeerbaron]

compatible with STI motor and 6speed perhaps?

STi transmission is a major problem due to the way the center diff works, lots of discussion on that elsewhere in the forum. Let's focus on the news!

[Dave Smith]

The road ahead for the 818 is two main milestones.

1. Multiple body designs in 1/4 scale real-life 3-d finished models (painted, details, etc). 1/4 scale is pretty big and we will show you guys these at FFR and in video so that we can have a very good idea of the completed car looks, sits, etc. You guys can vote/debate/discuss and help direct the car selection and perhaps changes to it.

2. SEMA! This is going to be a very big stretch considering all the things we are trying to do at FFR, but I want to show a full size car (as we did with our prototype GTM) at the SEMA show this coming November.

Sooo, for you guys impatient with the process, I will not post daily pictures rusty parts (we are not doing it that way), but you can count on two milestones ahead, the first being real-life scale models that should resemble the cars very closely and the next being an unveil of the next Factory Five at the Nov SEMA show.

The only scale models I will admit to is Xabiers car (3rd place) and the winner as hardtop (but there are currently 4). Still, IF we can refine the modeling process we will have more designs that we can build at smaller scale to put to you guys for opinions. Regardless of the number and designs (vintage replica or original designs x 3) the process will then go to surface scanning, scaling and milling the final body in full size, thereby greatly accclerating the body/molding timetable. 2012 is still within reach, but we will NOT make a date prediction that we don't have planning, capability, or resources to meet.

[thebeerbaron]

I might have to trek out to Wareham to see those models. Maybe this time I'll even be able to drive the donor out there :)

[Dave Smith]

With respect to the modeling process, we are taking two concurrent paths. Students at Rhode Island School of Design are working on clay models made traditionally, to 1/4 scale. We are also working with Solidworks to print 3-d models from CAD drawings of the car designs.

The actual body designs selected is a very sensitive subject. I PERSONALLY made the decision to separate the design contest from requiring the winner be the car we make. We have full freedom to use the winners, parts and elements of the winners or any submissions in the process. Since there is ALOT of emotion connected to the design selection and since some drawings and concepts look so much better on paper or at least different in the real world (read Foose drawings and the completed cars) I figured we would next go to you guys with actual scale models of some concepts, but more than concepts, cars that will be very close to what we make.

I know the date of SEMA, but I cannot predict the dates that models get done. I also do not wish to speculate on production times at this point, only to say that while the technology we are employing should shorten the normal development time, the resources we have (less than in years past) will make the process longer. We will not sell deposits on a car that hasnt been built, designed, tested, and undergone a legitimate beta program. So lets focus on the next milestones of body selection based on models and scaling up to a full-size car by SEMA in November.

[Dave Smith]

That's another good point is that I have to get a website put together with parts lists that we KNOW of, chassi and running gear specs, etc. The daily tips/hints here need to be added to the tech wikis on the 818 as they are PRICELESS and better than GOLD!

I hope that gives you guys some idea of where we are. The work that i just mentioned, and updated website, posting a gallery of submisison images, completing the models and showing them to you guys (maybe have a august/sept open house type event),.. these things will take time. It's funny cause we can keep you guys entertained with daily updates on a project that will never happen, or maybe frustrate you a tad with a project that progresses along a professional timeline, yet is updated periodically and appropriately. I chose the later and trust you understand we have a great team in-house and competent partners outside working on this. Hope this update has helped.

Tomorrow I will be working crazy doing tours at FFR since most of the crew is in Ohio for the Goodguys show. I will try and answer questions posted here at the end of the day or over the weekend. Thanks for your stoke and I hope you can tell that my silence is a poor measurement of my excitement for the 818.

[kitcarj]

Thanks Dave,
Any chance you can send out emails to everyone when you make significant posts, even if it just says check the Forum for new updates?

[Ks2]

that would be awesome as i know myself and many other forum members are already sourcing parts and donors for the build, getting a rough idea of what we need would be great

getting the 6MT to stay FWD is do-able, and for higher power applications i would rather have the thicker bellhousing and stronger gears, i know bremar makes conversion kits (though i have not yet contacted them about 6mt's) worst case scenario i get the STI motor and just mate it to a 5speed with good clutch and RA gears

i realized i am threadjacking with this so i will bring it up later in a more appropriate place, for now xabiers design, the wiki and sema updates are going to awesome and will give me something to watch while im away

[thebeerbaron]

Dave, having seen you buzzing around the Open House, there is no doubt that you have massive amounts of stoke for this project. If this were the 19th century, you'd be the guy shoveling coal into the furnace at the forge. (Terrible pun!)

I think a partial parts list would be a great teaser for us if it were updated with some regularity. There have been a surprising number of threads asking "would this car work as a donor" and given the depth of Subaru knowledge here, that list would help answer those questions. I know the last thing you want at this point is a bunch of customers with donors pestering you to move faster while they fight to the death for the first kit, but for some the right car at the right time could be a big deal.

I've applauded (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/entry.php?143-Relax-don-t-worry-have-a-homebrew) your decision to rely on an interdisciplinary team rather than a messiah for this project and these posts only reinforce my willingness to sit back and enjoy the ride.

Rest assured though, if all three bodies are ugly, I'm going be quite critical :)

[Ks2]

he did say he was using xabiers for one...

[thebeerbaron]

One of the three scale models is Xabier's design. My reading of this thread (and from conversations at the open house) is that the models are to better illustrate the top designs. Not that every design that is modeled will be turned into a production vehicle.

[Dave Smith]

Shoot, one more thing... I do really intend to make three cars from this platform, but for budget and resources reasons, we need to pick one to start with the others to follow. Also we do intend to go from model to surface scan to scale in solidworks to frame/chassis to milling and plug very quickly. IF we can do many body models reasonably costed we will, however, I think we might get pretty lucky and I am very hopeful the 1/4 scale (most or all) will go to production. As far as ugly is concerned, I agree, if we decide to make an ugly car, then please know that the "me that I am now" would want you to kick the "me that I would be then's" butt. Seriously, we know the chassis and running gear combo is a winner already. We HAVE to have a radical, stunning, beautiful, "make-you-want-to-sell your-kids-to-have-one", "willing to take a swing at your mom for it" good looking car.

More tomorrow or over the weekend.

[ScottKoschwitz]

Thanks, Dave, for the updates and the insight into the project-development process.

All my street cars have been VWs, and I owned a TDI for ten years, so I am definitely interested in the TDI version. I'm also interested in the race version; it just might make me replace my Spec Miata.

As for updates, I vote for reliable, considered updates with solid information when possible, as opposed to daily updates with a discussion of only possibilities instead of reliable information.

[Jammin]

Hi Dave
Very exciting info. I have been very quite here latley, but have been reading a lot. I do have a few questions on the gel coat body. The paint free gel coat, will that be offered in a couple of different colors? My second question is about the 1/4 scale cars. Will these be put through a wind tunnel to see how they perform or can that be done on computers?

[Silvertop]

I might have to trek out to Wareham to see those models. Maybe this time I'll even be able to drive the donor out there :)

Me too!! Except I'll have to get on an airplane. Too far to drive a donor car that I have not yet purchased, and which I will probably wait to purchase until I see which engine/transmission will best suit my needs for the 818 version that I wind up buying.

But a visit to Wareham some time in the next six months to a year is a lead-pipe cinch. Or maybe to SEMA. Excitement Renewed !!!!

[thebeerbaron]

please know that the "me that I am now" would want you to kick the "me that I would be then's" butt. Seriously, we know the chassis and running gear combo is a winner already. We HAVE to have a radical, stunning, beautiful, "make-you-want-to-sell your-kids-to-have-one", "willing to take a swing at your mom for it" good looking car.

http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b454/KenBrant/The_Simpsons_Bart_Vs_Australia_1995_5.jpg?t=129321 1589

I'm going to hold you to that Dave... I've got no kids to sell, but if I have to, I'll sell someone else's kids to pay for this. Looking forward to a great car!

[Dave Smith]

The cool thing about Solidworks is that you can do flow analysis/wind tunnel simulation and a host of other things (we've done rigidity chassis stuff already). Confirming the data in the real world is probably best done when the car is full size and this is SUPER important if MPG design is the one up (the track car also).

Jim is going to be REALLY busy for the next three weeks with a Spec race at Mid-Ohio next weekend and another race event at VIR the following weekend. The model-making is going full speed ahead, so we'll report on that first. In the meantime I'll be struggling to get the data/updates to our website as well as the gallery of winners maybe next week (but Mad Dog, our web guru is out til thursday).

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/images/xabier818r.jpg
My personal favorite design, but keep in mind that this is a collaborative process, when I want the answer, I'll give it to you... kidding. In all seriousness, the 818 process has been amazingly collaborative in the right places and very directive in others where merited. I believe that the success of the car will be that synthesis of our 15+ years of chassis-building/performance skills and the group collaboration of talented community individuals, strong partner companies, and the honest feedback of the FFR race and car-building community (NOT the general public). You guys here are the community of enthusiasts along with the group at GRM and other more dedicated user forums and groups. The export requirements will require those community assets as well and we've been working on that line in anticipation.

[Justen]

Thanks for the updates Dave, lots of good info here. Excited the hear that the parts list is going to be put together so I can start looking for a suitable donor!
November seems far away right now and can't come quick enough for me, but I'm sure its going to come up extremely quickly for all the work you guys have to do before SEMA.
Good luck with everything, I'm sure you and the crew will be able to pull it off and have a very popular booth.

[Oppenheimer]

Wow, so much (great) news, that should keep us entertained for a while.

+1 on the gel-coat colors question. Its been asked many times. Are there plans to offer multiple gel-coat colors?

On the street vs mpg vs track thing, my thought is to continue the swatch-watch analogy to the mix-n-match of drivetrain/chassis as well. Someone may want the streetcar body, but the mpg drivetrain, and the race chassis stuff. Or the mpg body, the wrx motor, standard running gear, etc.

So when designing the bodies, don't think 'mpg body' so much as 'coupe body'. Yes, it still needs to be slippery, but have in mind more than just a super mpg commuter.

BTW I'm really excited about the high mpg option (though I'll probably build with wrx powertrain). Since forever, high mpg cars have just been economy cars. The most basic of options, and absolutely no performance features. Wimpy chassis, cheap suspension and brakes.

I'm hoping the TDI 818 will create a whole new class of car. Light, fun to drive, high performance handling, but great mpg. I think this car will garner a big following that falls outside the 'gear-head' norm.

[kitcarj]

I agree. I don't want a rocket but I also don't want to live in what sometimes seems like the cookie cutter world of affordable cars.

Someone may want the streetcar body, but the mpg drivetrain, and the race chassis stuff. Or the mpg body, the wrx motor, standard running gear, etc.

So when designing the bodies, don't think 'mpg body' so much as 'coupe body'. Yes, it still needs to be slippery, but have in mind more than just a super mpg commuter.

[Dave Smith]

Gel coat technology has come a long way. One challenge is that multiple colors require, depending on the variation, different color mold surfaces. For example, a dark gel coat like black or blue metallic requires a lighter mold surface like orange (to see air voids and lay-up gel-coat correctly. The lighter gels coats like red or silver require a darker mold surface, so factoring that into the equation makes multiple colors possible, but within restricted ranges.

I agree on the body shapes, like a super-modern coupe that may be the primary body for the aero-mpg car, could also be a rock-star wrx candidate... powering decisions involve alot of variables and space considerations but we will of course be reaching far on all of the above.

[prematureapex]

Any cost projections on the "track" version?

Predicting it could be made road legal?

Koni shocks off the shelf, or custom?

Availabe for independent sale from you, should we want to upgrade our "street" versions?

[Rockraven]

As a displaced Newfoundlander, I've always wanted to enter the Targa Newfoundland. The 818R might be perfect. I also happen to live right between Mosport and Shannonville...

[D2W]

Dave, while I know nothing yet is set in stone I was wondering if you would tell us what you are thinking the specs for the three body designs will be. The track car I assume will have a spartan simple body that covers the chassis. What about the roadster? Do you envision any kind of top? How about side windows, roll up or snap in? Will it be more than a summer car for those of us that have more than one season. Lastly I'm guessing the coupe will also be the most civilized with complete enclosure and possibly HVAC. Just curious what you are envisioning.

[Oppenheimer]

Lastly I'm guessing the coupe will also be the most civilized with complete enclosure and possibly HVAC. Just curious what you are envisioning.

I'm hoping the interior is also swatch-watch. They design something that can reuse as much of the donor dash as possible (maybe none of it, it may just not fit or be practical), where you can include heat, A/C, etc if you want, or delete that stuff. You can build the dash bare-bones (track), full spec, or something in between, as you see fit.

So rather than 'this body gets this interior, that one gets that', its 'here are your interior options...' You want to build the 'track' body with a full interior, or commuter with bare-bones, go for it.

[Wayne Presley]

I've known Dave for a long time and this is as pumped up as I've seen him in the last few years. Its one thing that embodies everyone at FFR, passion.

[thebeerbaron]

Do you envision any kind of top?

As stated at the Open House, there will be a top of some kind. Making the Spyder GT completely topless was noted as a mistake.

Whether the top is included, added cost, soft, hard, windows, etc was not announced/discussed.

[jimgood]

Dave, thanks for staying in touch this way and for being so open about the process. It's insightful and refreshing.

I didn't see any mention of go-carting the chassis. Wouldn't that be a milestone, or are you waiting until you figure out the final position of various components like radiator, exhaust, inlets, etc?

Or have you guys got such a good handle on the design process that this step isn't even necessary?

[Oppenheimer]

I didn't see any mention of go-carting the chassis. Wouldn't that be a milestone, or are you waiting until you figure out the final position of various components like radiator, exhaust, inlets, etc?

Or have you guys got such a good handle on the design process that this step isn't even necessary?

Even if its not necessary, it sounds like it would be serious fun. I don't see how they could restrain themselves from doing it, a lot, even if its not required.

[D2W]

Even if its not necessary, it sounds like it would be serious fun. I don't see how they could restrain themselves from doing it, a lot, even if its not required.

And posting video :)

[Ophitoxaemia]

Even though I've owned, successfully developed, and raced an FFR for over 11 years, it's the 818 that I'm hoping will realize my dream to buy and built a kit from you. The stumbling block up to the 818 has been the time and to a lesser extent the cost of the bodywork. I'm married with two kids and a tiny, tiny one car garage, so building another FFR car always meant likely parting with FFR1630, which I could never bring myself to contemplate. A no-bodywork kit means I can stash the FFR 1630 in paid parking, still drive and race it, complete the 818 in a reasonably short amount of time, and park it outside. (Ok, who winced at that! :))

I'd like to consider the 818 as a replacement for my daily driver, and so competing with it are production cars like Porsche Cayman, 911 or Lotus Evora, all of which I consider too boring for the amount of money spent.

(As a side note, when I bought the "Man in the Box" car back in February of 2000, I wasn't sure what reception I'd get from FFR, seeing as I hadn't paid them for my car. But I recall being welcomed just like their "real" customers, and am grateful for the 818 project and a hopefully the chance to support the company directly.)

But it's gotta look classy. :D

[Someday I Suppose]

Dave,

Really great stuff, looking forward to seeing how this all comes together. Curious on the 3D Cad models and Rapid Proto printing of them as to how large you can go? Can you do them at 1/4 scale if you printed it in sections??? (I am supposing you could...)

-Scott

[Movieman]

The cool thing about Solidworks is that you can do flow analysis/wind tunnel simulation and a host of other things (we've done rigidity chassis stuff already). Confirming the data in the real world is probably best done when the car is full size and this is SUPER important if MPG design is the one up (the track car also).

Jim is going to be REALLY busy for the next three weeks with a Spec race at Mid-Ohio next weekend and another race event at VIR the following weekend. The model-making is going full speed ahead, so we'll report on that first. In the meantime I'll be struggling to get the data/updates to our website as well as the gallery of winners maybe next week (but Mad Dog, our web guru is out til thursday).

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/images/xabier818r.jpg
My personal favorite design, but keep in mind that this is a collaborative process, when I want the answer, I'll give it to you... kidding. In all seriousness, the 818 process has been amazingly collaborative in the right places and very directive in others where merited. I believe that the success of the car will be that synthesis of our 15+ years of chassis-building/performance skills and the group collaboration of talented community individuals, strong partner companies, and the honest feedback of the FFR race and car-building community (NOT the general public). You guys here are the community of enthusiasts along with the group at GRM and other more dedicated user forums and groups. The export requirements will require those community assets as well and we've been working on that line in anticipation.
Looking at that pic the expression that comes to mind is "Slicker than puppy doo";)

[Dave Smith]

The track version should not be that diff in target price as it would likely involve a couple thousand dollars of upgraded parts (fuel cell being a big one but not 100 percent needed). Shocks and brakes are virtually plug-ins and ALL the work on the chassis is being done to make sure the transition to track is easy and without additional chassis changes. A track-capable chassis is quite a bit of thinking and I am always shocked at what people consider taking to a track.

As far as the go-karting is concerned, Jim and the guys are really booked mercilessly for the next month, but while I didnt mention that as a "milestone", I cant imagine not doing some quick videos (you know I enjoy a good box of rubber covered donuts in the morning!).

The conversation on the gel coating is a really good one. We can do everything possible to keep the chassis kit price down, but the cost to complete the car is every bit as important... that's why running gear and paint are so huge. Making the gel-coat work means smaller panels, which means perfect molds and tolerances, mix in the design requirements of looks, aero, function and body mounting and it is a real tough puzzle. If you just try to slam all those things together with a group of people who don't understand the full implications of each, you'll miss the target by a mile... that's why Jim is the leader of the project, with good council and support, but a clear vision of the project goals and a really good understanding of all the variables. These questions on pricing, fuel tank location (which looks great by the way and likely NOT under the seat ensuring wookie fitment), are great. Still, there is a ton of work to do each day at FFR and our team is small and we can realistically only work 18-19 hours a day... :)

[NicksPapaw]

Dave,
Have you thought about farming out the gel coated panels to a boat manufacturer? We have a bunch of boat factories here that do fantastic work with fiberglass. Might be able to save yourself some money doing it that way. Don't really know, but just throwing out that thought for you. Plus, it could cut my shipping costs down a bunch. lol :) Also, if there is a way to put a top on the car in post 42, you will have reached the pinacle in my book. What a sexy, beautiful, wicked look!

[blueafro]

Lastly I'm guessing the coupe will also be the most civilized with complete enclosure and possibly HVAC. Just curious what you are envisioning.

I am very curious if optional A/C is going to make it into the design. No A/C would greatly limit the months per year the car would see on the road in much of the US Southwest and Southeast (and likely in many international markets also).

[crackedcornish]

The track version should not be that diff in target price as it would likely involve a couple thousand dollars of upgraded parts (fuel cell being a big one but not 100 percent needed). Shocks and brakes are virtually plug-ins and ALL the work on the chassis is being done to make sure the transition to track is easy and without additional chassis changes. A track-capable chassis is quite a bit of thinking and I am always shocked at what people consider taking to a track.

As far as the go-karting is concerned, Jim and the guys are really booked mercilessly for the next month, but while I didnt mention that as a "milestone", I cant imagine not doing some quick videos (you know I enjoy a good box of rubber covered donuts in the morning!).

The conversation on the gel coating is a really good one. We can do everything possible to keep the chassis kit price down, but the cost to complete the car is every bit as important... that's why running gear and paint are so huge. Making the gel-coat work means smaller panels, which means perfect molds and tolerances, mix in the design requirements of looks, aero, function and body mounting and it is a real tough puzzle. If you just try to slam all those things together with a group of people who don't understand the full implications of each, you'll miss the target by a mile... that's why Jim is the leader of the project, with good council and support, but a clear vision of the project goals and a really good understanding of all the variables. These questions on pricing, fuel tank location (which looks great by the way and likely NOT under the seat ensuring wookie fitment), are great. Still, there is a ton of work to do each day at FFR and our team is small and we can realistically only work 18-19 hours a day... :)

this is good news since the designs I gravitated towards had the driver pretty much sitting only a few inches above the floor and not much higher (which would have been necessary with the tank located beneath the seats) ;)

[Flamshackle]

Shocks and brakes are virtually plug-ins [/QUOTE

shock upgrades for the track are gonna be stiffer no probs but brakes? stopping something that's 900Kg (wet) can't be to difficult for 4pots (sti) that are designed to pull up a 1600kg beast? even the 2pots are going to be overrated for the application so can't see huge bang for your buck in pimping out the brake kit here?

[QUOTE=Dave Smith;26402] fuel tank location (which looks great by the way and likely NOT under the seat ensuring wookie fitment)

wooooohooooooo! I can fit in it! i must admit being 6-4" I was worried about this :~)

[AVIONX]

I was in love with this concept from day 1. Now I am starting to have some serious doubts. Nowhere in here is a 265HP, Rear Wheel drive, lightweight, Targa. Which unless I am mistaken, is what most people here standing in line to put down a deposit want. I am at a loss of words that the 1 awesome 818 concept has somehow blossomed into three unique cars, none of which are what most paying customers want. If a wanted a wicked awesome roadster for slaying corvettes on the track I wouldn't have sold my Mark II FFR roadster (built by me for a net total investment of 14.5k$ not including paint. I am sad :( Just give me $12k kit I can build with a WRX/STI drivetrain and not have to scrap my plans because of some light showers on my way. PLEASE!!!

[GUNS]

I was in love with this concept from day 1. Now I am starting to have some serious doubts. Nowhere in here is a 265HP, Rear Wheel drive, lightweight, Targa. Which unless I am mistaken, is what most people here standing in line to put down a deposit want. I am at a loss of words that the 1 awesome 818 concept has somehow blossomed into three unique cars, none of which are what most paying customers want. If a wanted a wicked awesome roadster for slaying corvettes on the track I wouldn't have sold my Mark II FFR roadster (built by me for a net total investment of 14.5k$ not including paint. I am sad :( Just give me $12k kit I can build with a WRX/STI drivetrain and not have to scrap my plans because of some light showers on my way. PLEASE!!!

I think you misread something along the way. The first car will be the $9900 kit that will use the WRX drivetrain, 1800 lbs, rwd roadster that will just so happen to slay vette on the track. IN ADDITION FFR will be releasing a track spec version and a tdi high mpg/high performance coupe.

[kach22i]

I was in love with this concept from day 1. Now I am starting to have some serious doubts. Nowhere in here is a 265HP, Rear Wheel drive, lightweight, Targa.

From what I read in your statement, the doubts are about the weight.

The goal weight is just that a goal weight.

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/818intro.html

Target weight - 1,800 lbs./818 kg.

Remember that all those super light weight kit cars of the 60's-70's used a VW Beetle pan with a similar wheelbase.

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/818intro.html

Factory Five Space Frame Chassis, 95" Wheel Base

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Beetle

Wheelbase 2,400 mm (94.5 in)

Granted, some of those VW pan cars had reinforcing to accommodate Buick V6's and small block Chevy - Ford V8's. These cars weighed more to get the 200-300 hp, but those were weights and horsepower of a different era.

I would call a 2,000 lb 818 as Mission Accomplished, close enough anyway.

It sure would be easier to meet the weight goals if the car were the size of a Fiat X-1/9, but then what would the Wookies do?

[Flamshackle]

It sure would be easier to meet the weight goals if the car were the size of a Fiat X-1/9, but then what would the Wookies do?

yea! give the wookies some love ;)

[PhyrraM]

I think he is not too concerned with weight, but is dragging the top "conversation" out again.

[kach22i]

I think he is not too concerned with weight, but is dragging the top "conversation" out again.
If true, then he does not understand the design or have seen the targa top option.

Either way, hard to respond to a post like that riddled with misconceptions.

[Dave Smith]

I can understand some of this confusion, since we dont have the car made yet. I think the scale models will be the next major milestone and will help guys see the design(s). Also not the time to get excited OR lose enthusiasm as there is still so much open air ahead. I am DYING to show you guys some of the stuff the team has already done, but that needs to be tempered with the fact that the next three weeks we are just FLAT OUT over-extended with shows, races, events, and car work. There will be a top, as was discussed at length. I posted the 818R photo cause I like it alot.

Here's some fun stuff. We have been doing limited bodywork (sanding) on a prepped roadster body with gel coat as part of this work towards a gel-coat (paint free) body. I know other companies have done this, but it is learning for us and part of a long process that will result in a better part at a lower price. Mad Dog gets back from vaca on friday so I should be able to update our website and photos and maybe share the gel coat process progress.

[sub322]

Thank you for the great update Dave. My reason for being here on the fourm is to watch the developement of the 818 and hopefully have the
chance to build one. This car to me is going to be the Porsche 911 I could never afford and I really like the idea of using the Subaru. My wife and I have owned five of them.

[NicksPapaw]

Dave, for once, I have to kindly disagree with you. You say it is not the time to get excited or lose enthusiasm as there is still so much open air ahead. I think that is really the most exciting part of this. Coupled with the fact that we are watching you help this country return to a position of greatness, one bolt, one screw, one frame at a time. What many people don't understand is that you have poured your life into your company, knowing only that if you do things correctly, treat people fairly, and make a product that the market wants, you might turn a profit. That, my friend, is exciting and I never lose enthusiasm watching the picture develop. Keep up the good work. Also, keep us posted! :)

[Flamshackle]

Dave, for once, I have to kindly disagree with you. You say it is not the time to get excited or lose enthusiasm as there is still so much open air ahead. I think that is really the most exciting part of this. Coupled with the fact that we are watching you help this country return to a position of greatness, one bolt, one screw, one frame at a time. What many people don't understand is that you have poured your life into your company, knowing only that if you do things correctly, treat people fairly, and make a product that the market wants, you might turn a profit. That, my friend, is exciting and I never lose enthusiasm watching the picture develop. Keep up the good work. Also, keep us posted! :)

well said! and im a kiwi :D

[jimgood]

On the gel coat front, I just want to put in a request that white be among the available colors. White and silver seem to draw less attention from law enforcement and I need all the help I can get out there. :)

[Dave Smith]

Exactly, 1/4 scale models have to be printed in sections and married together. The model making isnt limited as such and is going on right now. We are also hedging our bets, but if I told you about that i'd get nothing done this week. Seriously, this is a very challenging time for us with the street rodder tour last night, Goodguys nats last weekend, Syracuse nats this weekend and a CF fundraiser in Maine we are just flat out over-extended. I'll post the 818 stuff as soon as possibel but the good news is that the modeling is going full speed ahead.

[Dave Smith]

Jim,

Good call on the gel coat. This is, like I said, a HUGE part of the 818 design goals. White is easy to make look pretty but hard to make without air voids using our existing procedures. What I want is a variety of base colors and the new gel coats have metallics, you name it colors. Still I don't know where we'll end up as this is still being workled on. Dave

[Flamshackle]

I am a big fan of white cars, keep cleaner and looks plain awesome with black rims and a touch of chrome :D

[Oppenheimer]

I'm a big fan of silver cars. That carved metal unobtainium look. Agree also on the low-key, fly under the radar of less flashy colors.

I'm thinking that once the bodies are selected, it would be good to go back to the community for feedback on initial colors to offer. Not all shapes look good in your favorite color.

[Steve91T]

Black for me! I've gotten used to cleaning my cars....all the time.

[crackedcornish]

white cars don't stay white for long during certain months of the year where I live
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/3ac6b96a.jpg

me, I'll take something in Subaru Blue :)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/01ad1714.jpg

[Flamshackle]

white cars don't stay white for long during certain months of the year where I live
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/3ac6b96a.jpg

Yea but it looks cleaner for longer than other colours ie black... but good pic for reference! hahaha...



me, I'll take something in Subaru Blue :)
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/01ad1714.jpg

THIS I LIKE!!!

[thebeerbaron]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1046/muriasvsmallhd9.png

[GUNS]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1046/muriasvsmallhd9.png

Lambo Miura?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Lamborghini_Miura_P400SV.jpg

What's the reasoning for posting that?

[thebeerbaron]

look at that curve, that color.

I prefer the "pop" in my pic to the muted color in yours.

[xabier]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VeoennWHP2Q/ThWMq9j3uJI/AAAAAAAAAEg/oPZQnt8O3oo/s1600/lamborghini%2Bmiura.jpg
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I also love the Miura, it is one of my all time favourite cars, its just beautiful and is considered to be the first supercar in history. Here I leave you a illustration I did the past week in my free time, the drawing was done in photoshop in a couple of mornings I was free. Just a fantastic looking car!!!

[kach22i]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VeoennWHP2Q/ThWMq9j3uJI/AAAAAAAAAEg/oPZQnt8O3oo/s1600/lamborghini%2Bmiura.jpg
2931
I also love the Miura, ...........
Me too, in fact it was one of many cars which inspired me five years ago when playing with some clay. Notice the round headlights, Miura/Stratos/Lear jet/Enzo style side glass, and rear quarter high haunch air intakes. Some design clues in common can be found on the Lancia Stratos, some versions of the Ford GT 40, and even the Dick Dean; Shalako.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/#!cpZZ2QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/A-3-4-front-clay.jpg

My point is, a design can have many influences and not be a copy of anything else.

In X's design I see a Honda S2000, a Lotus Elise, some Subaru DNA, yet it is not a copy or Copy & Paste of any of them. It does not make me swoon, but with modest Subaru underpinnings maybe it shouldn't be overt or flamboyant either.

[AVIONX]

I can understand some of this confusion, since we dont have the car made yet. I think the scale models will be the next major milestone and will help guys see the design(s). Also not the time to get excited OR lose enthusiasm as there is still so much open air ahead. I am DYING to show you guys some of the stuff the team has already done, but that needs to be tempered with the fact that the next three weeks we are just FLAT OUT over-extended with shows, races, events, and car work. There will be a top, as was discussed at length. I posted the 818R photo cause I like it alot.

Here's some fun stuff. We have been doing limited bodywork (sanding) on a prepped roadster body with gel coat as part of this work towards a gel-coat (paint free) body. I know other companies have done this, but it is learning for us and part of a long process that will result in a better part at a lower price. Mad Dog gets back from vaca on friday so I should be able to update our website and photos and maybe share the gel coat process progress.
What I was saying is what a large # of customers want is the Vette slayer with a roof. If FFR says the only way we can make budget/weight/time commitments is to roll out a raodster version first, then follow up with a "roofed/targa" version later, then that's cool. It just means a lot of people will have to wait a little longer. Meaning the car I want will be version 2.0 out of the factory instead of V1.0. But instead what I am hearing is that FFR has already outlined Versions 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0, and the car most people want, per everyone who took the poll on this forum I might add. Is not any of those three. I am an Aerospace Engineer by trade. Noone can tell me that it is easier to Engineer 3 different bodies, and integrate a whole new engine/tranny/fuel type, then design a targa top. FFR as always is free to bring to market whatever they want. As an existing customer who has put down hard cash multiple times for their products, I am just providing them my $.02.

[crackedcornish]

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1046/muriasvsmallhd9.png

the color works, but I think I would still prefer the blue
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/d4493eea.jpg

[Oppenheimer]

What I was saying is what a large # of customers want is the Vette slayer with a roof.

Are you sure? That isn't my impression. Not that the 818 as planned wouldn't accomplish that.


But instead what I am hearing is that FFR has already outlined Versions 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0, and the car most people want, per everyone who took the poll on this forum I might add. Is not any of those three.

What is it that the poll revealed that most people want, that isn't addressed by any of the three (yet to be revealed) designs?


I am an Aerospace Engineer by trade. No one can tell me that it is easier to Engineer 3 different bodies, and integrate a whole new engine/tranny/fuel type, then design a targa top.

Where did you get the impression that they are doing all of those things before they work on a top option? I think all they are doing is leveraging the effort to 3D model and clay for all 3 designs up front, rather than one at a time. Just get the basic shapes down, then put one of them into production (yes, at first probably as a Roadster).

Just because Dave excitedly says they want to do all these things doesn't mean they are going to do the things he is excited about (and talks about) most before the things he is less excited about.

I think we (myself included) have a tendency to focus on the things we want to see in the 818 we hope to build (like a top). While Dave gets excited about much more. So while he might have been convinced (in part from forum feedback) that a top is needed, and is going to do it, its not as exciting to him as it is to some of us, so he doesn't talk about it as much as stuff like swatch-watch bodies and diesel mpg commuters.

We talk about us losing enthusiasm, but we should be more concerned about Dave and FFR's enthusiasm. Lets not do things to undermine that, make sure they stay as pumped about the 818 as we are. The more enthused they are, the better the outcome will be.

[ddorrer]

FYI...in the not to distant future you may see a clear coat product that will eliminate the need to wash your car. NASA is working on a biomimicking project that acts like the naturally repellent characteristics of certain water plants; basically self-cleaning.

[AVIONX]

Are you sure? That isn't my impression. Not that the 818 as planned wouldn't accomplish that.



What is it that the poll revealed that most people want, that isn't addressed by any of the three (yet to be revealed) designs?



Where did you get the impression that they are doing all of those things before they work on a top option? I think all they are doing is leveraging the effort to 3D model and clay for all 3 designs up front, rather than one at a time. Just get the basic shapes down, then put one of them into production (yes, at first probably as a Roadster).

Just because Dave excitedly says they want to do all these things doesn't mean they are going to do the things he is excited about (and talks about) most before the things he is less excited about.

I think we (myself included) have a tendency to focus on the things we want to see in the 818 we hope to build (like a top). While Dave gets excited about much more. So while he might have been convinced (in part from forum feedback) that a top is needed, and is going to do it, its not as exciting to him as it is to some of us, so he doesn't talk about it as much as stuff like swatch-watch bodies and diesel mpg commuters.

We talk about us losing enthusiasm, but we should be more concerned about Dave and FFR's enthusiasm. Lets not do things to undermine that, make sure they stay as pumped about the 818 as we are. The more enthused they are, the better the outcome will be.
I can see my comments are either not being understood or not being welcomed or both. When I hear that FFR is building a kit like the roadster (I've been referring to it as Version 1.0) but with a roof, then I will get excited. Sorry To get everyone upset. If one of Dave's repeat customers telling him what he would like to buy causes him to lose enthusiasm as some of you have said (Don't worry Dave, I know that won't happen) that is OK by me.

[crackedcornish]

Shoot, one more thing... I do really intend to make three cars from this platform, but for budget and resources reasons, we need to pick one to start with the others to follow. Also we do intend to go from model to surface scan to scale in solidworks to frame/chassis to milling and plug very quickly. IF we can do many body models reasonably costed we will, however, I think we might get pretty lucky and I am very hopeful the 1/4 scale (most or all) will go to production. As far as ugly is concerned, I agree, if we decide to make an ugly car, then please know that the "me that I am now" would want you to kick the "me that I would be then's" butt. Seriously, we know the chassis and running gear combo is a winner already. We HAVE to have a radical, stunning, beautiful, "make-you-want-to-sell your-kids-to-have-one", "willing to take a swing at your mom for it" good looking car.

More tomorrow or over the weekend.

Dave, are you going to do a poll as to which body to produce first? You say "we" need to pick one to start with...who's the "we", us or you?

I just want to know if you plan on making the most popular body first, or am I going to have to wait for the second, or possibly even the third body to come out, before I make a purchase.

I don't want to be waiting for a body that never comes out if the first one doesn't sell as well as thought (because everybody is holding off till their favorite body is available) and the car gets scrapped for lack of sales. Far fetched scenario I know.... but I'm a pessimist ;)

[Dave Smith]

Dave, for once, I have to kindly disagree with you. You say it is not the time to get excited or lose enthusiasm as there is still so much open air ahead. I think that is really the most exciting part of this. Coupled with the fact that we are watching you help this country return to a position of greatness, one bolt, one screw, one frame at a time. What many people don't understand is that you have poured your life into your company, knowing only that if you do things correctly, treat people fairly, and make a product that the market wants, you might turn a profit. That, my friend, is exciting and I never lose enthusiasm watching the picture develop. Keep up the good work. Also, keep us posted! :)

THANKS!!! In my haste (it's been a zoo here trying to cover the last two weeks of events that all landed closely) I didnt read your kind note. Thank you very very much for the very encouraging words. They serve to remind me and the team here that we are engaged in a serious and patriotic endeavor. I have no way of expressing my gratitude for this company, community and for the opportunities that this great country of our affords us. Freedom in it's beautiful and elemental form that we can live and have a RIGHT to the pursuit of happiness in the form and manner we choose! THANK YOU for the stoke brother!!!

[Dave Smith]

On the body config thing, I think it is more logic, budget and market reach (more folks can afford a less expensive car) that would drive us to launch the roadster version first, but I do like your thinking on putting the designs and accurately forecasted costing/pricing/details out to everyone on the forum. Truth is that larger scale model in real life will help tremendously with the selection process. The Coupe design is sooo sexy that perhaps it SHOULD be launched first. Even a track model could be justified in that it, (like the KTM X-bow or Atom) would get huge press first and build momnetum and performance reputation... Ok, I am excited, and late for dinner!!!

[D2W]

I can see my comments are either not being understood or not being welcomed or both. When I hear that FFR is building a kit like the roadster (I've been referring to it as Version 1.0) but with a roof, then I will get excited. Sorry To get everyone upset. If one of Dave's repeat customers telling him what he would like to buy causes him to lose enthusiasm as some of you have said (Don't worry Dave, I know that won't happen) that is OK by me.

Avionx, I believe that at the open house Dave was understood as saying the first car to come out (roadster) will have a top of some sort. Whether it is included/optional, soft/hard ect. has yet to be announced. I know that goes against the definition of what a roadster is, but that's my understanding. Maybe Dave could clarify.

[D2W]

Dave, could you give us a little insight into the designs you are working on. Are they all for distinct purposes, ie. one for the roadster, one for the coupe, one for the track? Or are the designs being looked at as being multipurpose, ie. one design could be the roadster and also the track car with a cut down windshield? (like what Xabier did with his design).

[riptide motorsport]

For some reason my mind is seeing yellow gelcoat. A la gen II GTM.

[jimgood]

White is easy to make look pretty but hard to make without air voids using our existing procedures.
Bummer. Well, I guess I'll just have to make do. At least plain white paint is cheap. In fact, I have some leftover cans of Behr Ultra Pure White from when we painted our ceilings.

[jimgood]

FYI...in the not to distant future you may see a clear coat product that will eliminate the need to wash your car. NASA is working on a biomimicking project that acts like the naturally repellent characteristics of certain water plants; basically self-cleaning.
That's interesting but I don't want to have to feed my car plant food on top of everything else. :D

[16g-95gsx]

Dave, could you give us some insight into what your current concept of a "track" model is? I am just curious what you feel stands a track model apart from the standard roadster model? I know at this point it's early in the game but I am trying to gauge where your thought process is heading.

[mn_vette]

Dave,

So when I think Swatch Watch I think interchangeable. So would I be able to get a roadster kit and then later "upgrade" to the coupe body? It would be really nice if they were quickly interchangeable, but pannel and door alignment would not allow for that. It would still be cool to swtich back and forth, maybe a summer and winter body.

[slopoke]

just get one of each ...

[Texan_GTM]

Dave, could you give us some insight into what your current concept of a "track" model is? I am just curious what you feel stands a track model apart from the standard roadster model? I know at this point it's early in the game but I am trying to gauge where your thought process is heading.
+1, I would love to know which design will be which. Like, for example, which will be road, which will be track, and which will be economy.

[Seagondollar]

I'm partial to red, but my wife complains that folks don't seem to see my red 88 MR2, so an alternate might be a dayglow yellow or orange.

[BipDBo]

Bummer. Well, I guess I'll just have to make do. At least plain white paint is cheap. In fact, I have some leftover cans of Behr Ultra Pure White from when we painted our ceilings.

I think that comment should earn you a restraining order to not come within 500 ft of any Factory Five product.

[kach22i]

I think he was joking, and should have put the font in a green color to indicate sarcasm.

In my opinion, white is a fine color for an appliance. However there are a few exceptions.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Exotic%20Cars/#!cpZZ2QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Exotic%20Cars/George-Driver.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Exotic%20Cars/George-Stop.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Exotic%20Cars/George-Turn-Around-Sq-Lk.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Exotic%20Cars/George-Vector-Road34.jpg
2966

[olpro]

Cars with crisp forms often look good in white. Cars with rounded forms sometimes look like a bar of soap. I suppose every car design has its good and bad colors.

[thebeerbaron]

This does not look like a bar of soap.

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/attachments/f3/108260d1231967994-stormtrooper-exige-spotted-wi-all-threads-merged-stormtrooper.jpg

Never thought of it in terms of crisp vs round, but I think I can see that. Elise is round in places, but has "sharp" edges. The black accents help.

I think pearl white looks dingy. I don't think it works on that Vector (which I can't believe is actually moving under its own power!). If I think of it in terms of photography, white pearl paint reduces the contrast of the car as a whole, so lines and curves need to be sharper to increase shadow depth to make up for it. Seeing that I don't think this works on the angular Vector, maybe I don't think white pearl works on any car.

Anyhow, I still suggest radioactive green, though I wouldn't be unhappy with the World Rally Blue from the donor...

[kach22i]

Cars with crisp forms often look good in white. Cars with rounded forms sometimes look like a bar of soap. I suppose every car design has its good and bad colors.
Great observation Olpro.

A white Lotus Exige in Ann Arbor only looks as good as it does because of all the black accents/grilles on it.

The Storm-Trooper Elise is rather non form revealing in my opinion.

[Flamshackle]

I would have mine in pearl white in a second! throw some black around and it looks flamin sharp!
2971


Colours wise the most popular colour by VAST majority in the world is blue :~) so if its admirers you want then paint it a lovely Blue and your done..
However if its what YOU want then paint it however YOU want :~)

Pearl white with black bits and bobs looks ace IMHO just like black with chrome touches (rim edges ect) looks the buisiness...

[D2W]

I love the white with black accent look. It has that James Bond white tux "I'm bad@$$" look.

[ScottKoschwitz]

I can't say that I'm the biggest fan of white. However, if a car can look good in white, it can look good in any color. I've been on a big blue kick lately. Lotus had a beautiful Nightfall Blue Metallic on the Elise for the first couple of years, and the Le Mans Blue on the Corvette is really nice. Of course, British Racing Green is always a favorite.

[Texan_GTM]

What about laguna seca blue on the E46 M3?

[2KWIK4U]

So I guess you can pick a color that is "acceptable" to you and later paint it whatever you like. Sounds like a win situation, especially for a person as color blind as me!! :)

[Steve91T]

Exactly. But the kit, build it, drive it until you save up enough money for a paint job. Leguna Seca blue really is a pretty color. That would look pretty sweet.

Also Stacy David's Copperhead color would be pretty cool! Sure would be different.


http://staceydavid.com/projects/copperhead

[TRex]

According to DuPont, the most popular car color is (drum roll plz)... Silver!!

http://www2.dupont.com/Media_Center/en_US/daily_news/december/article20101208.html

The top 10 global vehicle colors are as follows:

1. Silver – 26%
2. Black/Black Effect – 24%
3. White/White Pearl and Gray – 16% each (tie)
5. Red – 6%
6. Blue – 5%
7. Brown/Beige – 3%
8. Green – 2%
9. Yellow/Gold – 1%
10. Others – <1%

So... which one guys?? Personally I like White better!

[Oppenheimer]

FYI...in the not to distant future you may see a clear coat product that will eliminate the need to wash your car. NASA is working on a biomimicking project that acts like the naturally repellent characteristics of certain water plants; basically self-cleaning.

I recall hearing about that idea many, many years ago. Its still not here. So I'm not holding my breath for it.

[Oppenheimer]

I can see my comments are either not being understood or not being welcomed or both. When I hear that FFR is building a kit like the roadster (I've been referring to it as Version 1.0) but with a roof, then I will get excited. Sorry To get everyone upset. If one of Dave's repeat customers telling him what he would like to buy causes him to lose enthusiasm as some of you have said (Don't worry Dave, I know that won't happen) that is OK by me.

I apologize if my comments sounded like I was attacking your position, that was not my intent. Perhaps we all have a little 'oldpro' in us from time to time:eek:

Perhaps I did misunderstand you. But from what I think I did understand, the basic concern has to do with lack of a top (not sure if there was also a '3 design winners are not what we want' aspect to your post - Dave has said, both before and after contest, winning designs and what they decide to build are in no way dependant on each other). Dave has said the car will have a top. Does that mean all 3 designs will have a top? I don't think even Dave is sure on that yet. On day 1, when the first design is initially offered for sale, will it have a top? I think Dave is hinting maybe not, that would be offered later.

But I think Dave is going to wait and see on that. My thinking is if they can possibly get it done in time, it will be an available option day 1. But Dave is being wise not to commit himself to that right now.

[Nativo]

Hello Guys;
Are there any Headroom/Legroom number yet for the 818. As a 260LBS 6'3" driver my concern is space. Also being from the Caribbean where we get our share of rain and heat perhaps the Coupe might be the ideal body as long as it has a good A/C and allows me to fit with the helmet on.


Thanks,

[thebeerbaron]

As a 260LBS 6'3" driver my concern is space.

I believe "wookie compatible" is a stated design parameter. As far as HVAC, that's several items down on the "things we don't know about yet" list.

[olpro]

>>>Perhaps we all have a little 'oldpro' in us from time to time<<<
Only if you are lucky :)

[riptide motorsport]

Ha ha ha !!!

[ehansen007]

http://www.fsk405.com/e107_fil/public/1294752314_824_FT44117_hijacked.gif

[BipDBo]

My white bar of soap


.



http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/leakingas/00.jpg"]http:/http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/leakingas/01.jpg

I don't see a bar of soap. I see a suppository. Maybe I should go talk to my shrink.

[Nativo]

I believe "wookie compatible" is a stated design parameter. As far as HVAC, that's several items down on the "things we don't know about yet" list.

Thanks thebeerbaron:
My concern comes from the fact that I do not fit comfortably in a GTM much less with a helmet on. Now that I'm so exited about this 818 I just hope I can be one of the lucky ones to have one and fit in it dry and comfortable in it.

[Flamshackle]

Mate if you have fitment issues then I will have worse! im 6f4 so hoping for a workable solution other than mounting the seats directly to the tarmac! "wookie compatible" covers us I hope

[2KWIK4U]

Mate if you have fitment issues then I will have worse! im 6f4 so hoping for a workable solution other than mounting the seats directly to the tarmac! "wookie compatible" covers us I hope

Yes, lets hear it for being "wookie compatible" for I am a wookie too! :D

[305mouse]

Hi Dave, I'm sure you're swamped and everybody wants to talk to you. Have a couple questions/concerns. For the track version, why can't all three chassis' be the same? That'll save time in production and possibly costs overall. Then you'll just have to add the cage (unless that's the change you had in mind to the chassis) and upgrade the brakes, coilovers and body. If we purchase a "base" model, would you offer a cage option that could be welded in? Also, you mentioned the base model would be with the Impreza. Would we be able to use a WRX or STI engine with the base model? Only change would be need for cooling of the intercooler and plumbing for the exhaust with the turbo. Not sure if the base bodywork would have vents or a scoop or anything do direct air to the intercooler. Also, some people have mentioned the STI 6mt. This would be nice for some people. Have you looked into this at all to see what it would take to make this work? The 6mt can take a lot more abuse than a 5mt with ppg's. If someone does autox events, the 5 mt will be fine, but track people will probably find the 6mt to be beneficial. Thanks

[Niburu]

305mouse, take some time and read through the forum, ALL of your points have been and are currently discussed.
Some of them even have their own threads.
Also you may be confusing bodies with chassis, they are seperate entities in this case.

[305mouse]

I have read all the threads for the 818, I know the Subies quite well. A lot of people have chimed in about questions I brought up, but Dave hasn't. I'm not confusing bodies with chassis. He stated a thrid option would have, to paraphrase it, a beefier chassis/cage. So in my opinion that means more than just a 6/8/10/infinity point cage. Also, the "Impreza" would be the base for the budget goals. I know more details will have to follow and waiting for the models to be done up. Who knows how this swatch-watch concept will look or pan out. They are busier than hell right now with all the shows and events they go to over the Summer. So there's so much speculation and they're trying to fit this in a crazy time crunch. Just cause I just joined this forum doesn't mean I'm a "noob". Until a detailed list/model is done, all bets are off. I would like a "Base" model, drop in a built EJ255 with a small VF turbo and get a weld in cage down the road if it's an option. We'll just have to see how they are going to build it. Since Dave said he likes the feedback from us, I wanted to ask a few questions. I'm not even gonna bring up the tranny, cause there is a thread for that, and again, Dave hasn't chimed in, he's busy.

[Steve91T]

Mouse, I understand that just because you don't have many posts doesn't mean you are a noob and haven't been doing reading. But these questions honestly have been talked about. Dave answers what he can, and as many have pointed out, he can't spill too much of what's going on. It's business.

You questions about intake vents for cooling has absolutely been beaten to death. I know, I was a part of it. Everyone is aware that a lot of air is required in the rear of the car for the IC. Radiator will most likely be up front, which is preferred.

A lot of people thought the STI wouldn't work because it's too difficult to convert to RWD. But this has been proven to be false. I have no doubts that there will be STI 818's running around. But being that this car is going to be very tight on budget, I have a feeling some modification will be required, which isn't a problem for a lot of people.

As far as the strength of the tranny....if someone has enough money to build an engine powerful enough to break the tranny, they have enough money to rebuild it with stronger gears.

Also, as far as the difference between the street version and the track version, check out the roadster (I'm sure you have already). It'll probably have similar differences.

[kach22i]

a lot of air is required in the rear of the car for the IC.

A nice summation of facts Steve91T, the quote above makes me feel better about liking the designs featuring large side intakes, over cleaner designs relying on drawing air in the top rear deck. It takes power to draw air through a negative air pressure area. For an example just look at the fan on an old air-cooled 911, I'll admit a rather extreme example.

[Steve91T]

Here's an example to compare to. This is a pic of an MR2 that I had about 4 years ago. These side vents were not large enough to pull enough air to keep the IC cool. Some people actually made scoops, which worked a lot better, but just didn't look right on the car. The other problem was that the intercooler sat right next to the turbo down pipe. You just can't have too much air feeding the intercooler.

It's hard to see, but the IC is on the right side of the engine bay, and the intake is on the left.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v199/Steve91T/Other%20pics/111506_1351.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v199/Steve91T/Other%20pics/wheels6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v199/Steve91T/Other%20pics/IMG_8522.jpg

My MR2 was making 270 rwhp and had an aftermarket intercooler. I still had problems keeping it cool on the race track, or in stop and go traffic. Some of the designs submitted had very large side vents that were designed in a way that they really didn't look that large. I just really hope that I'm not going to be sitting there, building my 818, trying to figure out how to get more air to the IC.

[jimgood]

I'm not even gonna bring up the tranny, cause there is a thread for that, and again, Dave hasn't chimed in, he's busy.


As far as the strength of the tranny....if someone has enough money to build an engine powerful enough to break the tranny, they have enough money to rebuild it with stronger gears.

I really don't get the concern about the tranny. Guys that are breaking trannies are most likely doing it in high horsepower, WRXs or STis doing AWD drag launches. There will be a huge difference in the amount of driveline shock one can develop in one of those 3100 lb cars with AWD vs the 1800 lb RWD 818.

[Oppenheimer]

I really don't get the concern about the tranny. Guys that are breaking trannies are most likely doing it in high horsepower, WRXs or STis doing AWD drag launches. There will be a huge difference in the amount of driveline shock one can develop in one of those 3100 lb cars with AWD vs the 1800 lb RWD 818.

I agree. For the typical, rational guy building an 818, a WRX motor with a few sensible mods will have all the thrust one would want in a street car, yet no where near enough to be detrimental to the tranny in this application (without driving stoopit).

Will there be guys with mega hp that need to worry about their tranny? Probably, but once you are into that territory, finding ways to get the 6 sp to work or getting hardened gears for the 5 sp or whatever would not be much additional burden. Asking FFR to design things so the 6 sp is a drop-in option just for the few that will be exploring the outer bounderies doesn't seem like a good use of resources.

This all reminds me of guys at a car show that will never build their own car chastising someones Roadster with a built 351 saying 'if I ever build a Cobr* it will have to have a big block'. The gut reaction of many (especially those from the Subie crowd) is going to be 'must have 6 sp' (and STi motor and Brembos, etc), even though these will be overkill.

Its understandable since we're talking about building a dream car. It takes rational thought to realize how much is enough. We're going to have to get used to people showing up and initially being critical that the standard options don't include all STi pieces.

[kach22i]

I just really hope that I'm NOT going to be sitting there, building my 818, trying to figure out how to get more air to the IC.

Fixed it for you.:)

[Steve91T]

Thanks! Fixed mine as well. Details....

[305mouse]

Just an FYI to anyone starting to look at donor cars. 02-03 5mt gears were like glass. 04-05 better and 06-07 were better still. The weight savings is going to be a huge difference for this car. I don't think 90% of the builders would want/need lager calipers and rotors. A FMIC might be nice, but the piping would be too long I'm sure to make it worth it. I'm just really looking forward to these models and how Dave's vision here is gonna look.

[jimgood]

Just an FYI to anyone starting to look at donor cars. 02-03 5mt gears were like glass. 04-05 better and 06-07 were better still. The weight savings is going to be a huge difference for this car.
See? There you go again. "gears were like glass" is BS. Show me a WRX that broke gears and I'll show you a dork with a built motor that dropped the clutch at 5000 rpm from a standstill.

I drove a '02 WRX with the stock transmission to 140k miles doing 5 - 8 track days a year, numerous RallyX's and brutal daily driving. I never replaced a single component in the drivetrain; not even the clutch.

[thebeerbaron]

See? There you go again. "gears were like glass" is BS. Show me a WRX that broke gears and I'll show you a dork with a built motor that dropped the clutch at 5000 rpm from a standstill.

I drove a '02 WRX with the stock transmission to 140k miles doing 5 - 8 track days a year, numerous RallyX's and brutal daily driving. I never replaced a single component in the drivetrain; not even the clutch.

I completely agree with you. But to play Devil's advocate, let's look at it in these terms:

If you go to buy a donor and are looking at an 02-03, take a very good look at the transmission and be ready to fix/replace it if it is making unpleasant noises...

Better?

[jimgood]

I completely agree with you. But to play Devil's advocate, let's look at it in these terms:

If you go to buy a donor and are looking at an 02-03, take a very good look at the transmission and be ready to fix/replace it if it is making unpleasant noises...

Better?
Sure, but the same caution applies to any donor. I'm just trying to bring sanity to the internet-propagated, mythical glass tranny.

[thebeerbaron]

Sure, but the same caution applies to any donor. I'm just trying to bring sanity to the internet-propagated, mythical glass tranny.

I think you've done that. What I'm looking for is some acknowledgement that when buying a donor this is a red-flag item, not a "I can pour in some miracle oil and be OK" item. To first time donor buyers talking to a knowledgeable and deceitful seller, this might not be obvious.

[StatGSR]

Also, you mentioned the base model would be with the Impreza. Would we be able to use a WRX or STI engine with the base model? Only change would be need for cooling of the intercooler and plumbing for the exhaust with the turbo. Not sure if the base bodywork would have vents or a scoop or anything do direct air to the intercooler.



I have read all the threads for the 818, I know the Subies quite well.

Clearly you haven't read all the threads and information available about the 818 or else you would be asking if a wrx engine was going to work in the "base model" 818.... the plan since day 1 was that this would be based on a wrx, using a turbo engine, hell even the pictures from the unvail clearly show a wrx engine in the chassis....

http://hphotos-ash4.fbcdn.net/258809_977142072309_1815197_47159234_2770679_o.jpg

[305mouse]

Clearly you haven't read all the threads and information available about the 818 or else you would be asking if a wrx engine was going to work in the "base model" 818.... the plan since day 1 was that this would be based on a wrx, using a turbo engine, hell even the pictures from the unvail clearly show a wrx engine in the chassis....

I believe that was before Dave announced that there would be three versions. He stated the first using an impreza, the second the with the whole VW tdi running gear and the third with the WRX. The first would be the $9,900 priced one and the others are more expensive. Again we'll just have to wait for the models.

As for my comment on the 02-03 5mt, I just want to let people who might not know the car all that well, be aware of a possible issue. I don't know about you, but I don't know how many people would keep eveything stock as they swap it over. Someone might do a turbo swap. How about just a tune with the ecu? These are contributing factors. Here are two good reads on the NASIOC site in regards to transmissions. The first even has all the gear ratio info and a ton more. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=665334 and http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=986710

[305mouse]

Also, I admit my use of the term glass to describe the 02-03 5mt is a bit overkill. Some 03 5mt's received thicker gears, from 04 on they all had thicker gears.

[Flamshackle]

couple of things you guys might find helpful

This Subaru legacy GT (my daily ride ;)) STANDARD puts out 280HP (its a JDM for those who know the USDM version was not as grunty). Take note of the tiny size of the air intake for the intercooler.

so...


1) A well designed and positioned scoop or duct doesn't NEED to be big (READ, UGLY) to get good amounts of flow.

3070

2) If you are chasing big power and fast lap times you can buy "unbreakable" gear sets from Australia for the Subaru 5MT for around $5000 (I think that a standard late model 5MT will be fine for 95% of 818 Applications)

http://mrtperformance.com.au/performance/transmission/271-mrt-unbreakable-gear-sets

[thebeerbaron]

How does your uber Legacy do on the track? How many hot laps can you put down before your intercooler hear soaks?

These are legitimate questions, not smart mouthing.

[Flamshackle]

good question re track use. it performs well when moving, its the static traffic senario where it heat soaks real bad.

For the track you really would want the WRX STI turbo, intercooler settup. its a cheap upgrade in the scheme of things.

For my 818 I will custom mount a custom cooler for best flow and heat exchange so it wont matter how they plan on getting air back there.

Like i said its not the size of the intake or ducting but flow that matters

[riptide motorsport]

Flamshackle.......does that mean anything? Interesting sounding name........Flamshackle, sounds like it could mean a number of diferent things, ranging from good to bad! :)

[Flamshackle]

Flamshackle.......does that mean anything? Interesting sounding name........Flamshackle, sounds like it could mean a number of diferent things, ranging from good to bad! :)

Hahaha...

Its actually the name of the bed time story hero I made up for one of my rug rats ;) "Fluppety Flamshackle" You know the sort, he goes on wild adventures and races all the coolest cars against the police... My son cant get enough of Fluppety. I guess in his mind the police are the fastest cars in the world so its a mighty feat for the Flamshackle to win... We often watch UTube clips of cars racing then I tell the stories...

Keeps me young!

[Someday I Suppose]

On the versions of cars, I won't try to say I know what Dave is thinking or put words into his mouth, but based on what I have seen with other kits, what makes sense to me is that the 818 is going to be based on an impreza / wrx donor. If you use one of those as a donor, between that and the kit you should have about everything needed to put the kit together, again this is my impression based on what I have read.

The other engine varients, I assume are still going to use the Sube suspension components, and you would swap in the TDI or Ford driveline. I expect the chasis to be the same except for different engine mounts, as the roadster is now. It may also very well be that Factory Five will come out with tubular arms for the 818 just as they have for the other kits, that would help someone who wanted to do a differnt driveline go 'non-donor' or maybe even a complete kit offered by FFR.

Point being that until we see the packages offered we don't know for sure what they are, but based on what has been done in the past I expect that there will be more then one way to build an 818, and that is part of the fun.

-Scott

[Horhay]

How does your uber Legacy do on the track? How many hot laps can you put down before your intercooler hear soaks?

These are legitimate questions, not smart mouthing.
The intercooler will not likely heat soak during lapping. Autocross and around town are different scenarios, but on the track or freeway you'll have plenty of airflow to keep the IC cool.

[thebeerbaron]

The intercooler will not likely heat soak during lapping. Autocross and around town are different scenarios, but on the track or freeway you'll have plenty of airflow to keep the IC cool.

I think of track days as being constant-boost scenarios, thus likely to heat up the intercooler quite a bit. Only if airflow is sufficient will it keep the intercooler cool.

Anything less than track (or the right autocross scenario) and the intercooler will have long periods of no boost, allowing insufficient airflow to do "catch up" cooling of the intercooler.

Now, mounting the intercooler on top of the engine may introduce a different kind of heat soak, but I haven't got much of an idea of how extreme that could be...

[Cooluser23]

Dave, could you do an update, and bring this thread back to topic?

[AZJoker]

Looking at that pic the expression that comes to mind is "Slicker than puppy doo";)

Kind of late to the party but is this the design because HOT #$&&^#&^(.)(.)#*() !!!!!!

[AZJoker]

The cool thing about Solidworks is that you can do flow analysis/wind tunnel simulation and a host of other things (we've done rigidity chassis stuff already). Confirming the data in the real world is probably best done when the car is full size and this is SUPER important if MPG design is the one up (the track car also).

Jim is going to be REALLY busy for the next three weeks with a Spec race at Mid-Ohio next weekend and another race event at VIR the following weekend. The model-making is going full speed ahead, so we'll report on that first. In the meantime I'll be struggling to get the data/updates to our website as well as the gallery of winners maybe next week (but Mad Dog, our web guru is out til thursday).

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/images/xabier818r.jpg
My personal favorite design, but keep in mind that this is a collaborative process, when I want the answer, I'll give it to you... kidding. In all seriousness, the 818 process has been amazingly collaborative in the right places and very directive in others where merited. I believe that the success of the car will be that synthesis of our 15+ years of chassis-building/performance skills and the group collaboration of talented community individuals, strong partner companies, and the honest feedback of the FFR race and car-building community (NOT the general public). You guys here are the community of enthusiasts along with the group at GRM and other more dedicated user forums and groups. The export requirements will require those community assets as well and we've been working on that line in anticipation.

This the pic I was refer'n to.... it is (.)(.) 's

[riptide motorsport]

yes it is!!!

[Niburu]

there is a vast consensus on that car being one sexy catfish
it's the one I want

[prematureapex]

Just an FYI to anyone starting to look at donor cars. 02-03 5mt gears were like glass. 04-05 better and 06-07 were better still. The weight savings is going to be a huge difference for this car. I don't think 90% of the builders would want/need lager calipers and rotors. A FMIC might be nice, but the piping would be too long I'm sure to make it worth it. I'm just really looking forward to these models and how Dave's vision here is gonna look.

Don't bring long-dispelled nasioc myth here. These things just don't up and break gears, not by a long-shot. Any in-depth searching on nasioc will bare that out.

Much of the early 02 tranny failures were do to the HUGE surge of guys drag racing them, or pro-soloing, not slipping the clutch properly, and merely side-stepping the clutch. 02-03 boxes are plenty strong without drop-clutch launches. I've had an 02 and 2 03s, with huundreds of thousands of mile on them. All with tons of standing start autox and track days, all with zero problems. By-in-large, that is true for the vast majority of 02/03 owners.

Further, the RA-width gears (wider gears) were introduced in 03.5, rather than 04.

Also, you'll actually find more than a few 06+ tranny failures when you start to increase power levels. That's a TORQUEY motor when you throw more boost at it. It's been known to break third gear mid-pull!

Anway, with no awd, I can't see it being an issue, at all.

[Silvertop]

there is a vast consensus on that car being one sexy catfish
it's the one I want

Me, too! Only I'll take mine in a Targa-top street version.

[crackedcornish]

Me, too! Only I'll take mine in a Targa-top street version.
in Subaru Blue (or SuBlueru as I will call it :D) please...
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/01ad1714.jpg

[stephen]

I'd buy it !

- Stephen

[305mouse]

I don't want to take this off topic more than it already is. I did post more info with links, people can do their own research. Just waiting for Dave to post some news, a photo, anything really. All I hope is one version looks like the 818-R, I know it's a lot of people's favorite.

[Gollum]

I really don't get the concern about the tranny. Guys that are breaking trannies are most likely doing it in high horsepower, WRXs or STis doing AWD drag launches. There will be a huge difference in the amount of driveline shock one can develop in one of those 3100 lb cars with AWD vs the 1800 lb RWD 818.

The reason I originally started a thread on this topic was because I've heard several stories of people breaking them MID GEAR, not at launches. There's a very good probability that the lower weight won't help what's breaking. You might say "but it'll have lower weight, thus less stress" well yes, when it comes to moment of inertia stress. But that mass will be accelerating faster, thus load is load and HP in = work out. If a tranny manufacture gives a torque rating for a transmission, you can fudge it with a lighter car. But if there's a HP limitation, then it's best to not go too far past.

I also find it kind of humorous that the few defending the strength of the earlier trannys aren't telling us how much power they were putting to the wheels. I do believe the frailty of this tranny is a bit overblown, but that said I do think there are facts people need to look at, and tranny blowing HP shows up sooner than you might think and is a serious hurtle in the pursuit of speed.

/Thread jack over

But we can continue this topic elsewhere. :-D

[prematureapex]

The reason I originally started a thread on this topic was because I've heard several stories of people breaking them MID GEAR, not at launches. There's a very good probability that the lower weight won't help what's breaking. You might say "but it'll have lower weight, thus less stress" well yes, when it comes to moment of inertia stress. But that mass will be accelerating faster, thus load is load and HP in = work out. If a tranny manufacture gives a torque rating for a transmission, you can fudge it with a lighter car. But if there's a HP limitation, then it's best to not go too far past.

I also find it kind of humorous that the few defending the strength of the earlier trannys aren't telling us how much power they were putting to the wheels. I do believe the frailty of this tranny is a bit overblown, but that said I do think there are facts people need to look at, and tranny blowing HP shows up sooner than you might think and is a serious hurtle in the pursuit of speed.

/Thread jack over

But we can continue this topic elsewhere. :-D

More typically seen with the 06+ 2.5l. Normally 3rd gear, mid-pull on a modified motor, but we've seen it on motors with only mild bolt-ons. The 2.5l packs a mid-range punch when you start feeding boost to it, even on the stock turbo.

The 2.0l cars have been breaking 1st gear mostly, with some 2nd gear problems, but again, all shock loading from hard shifting into 2nd, or launching from first. Also, there have clutch-engaged, mid pull failures, but they appear to all be on cars where the owner's have admitted to launching the car hard during its life. Enough stress on the gears, and they let go.

My cars have varied from 230 whp to about 280-290 whp.





Anyway, the most important point here is that this car is 2wd. That's half the traction. Gear strength will simply not be an issue.

[Silvertop]

I don't want to take this off topic more than it already is. I did post more info with links, people can do their own research. Just waiting for Dave to post some news, a photo, anything really. All I hope is one version looks like the 818-R, I know it's a lot of people's favorite.

I think it's OK to run a little off-topic on this thread. As you noted, we are really just waiting for Dave, passing the time here, and having a little fun in the process.

305Mouse, I believe that it is highly likely that the 818-R will surface as one of the available choices, particularly since Dave himself appears to very excited about it. Those of us that are also hoping for a street version of this design are basically doing a little lobbying here. We know that Dave visits this thread often. It IS after all, HIS thread.

Crackedcornish and Stephen, if it turns out that I can't have my white one due to potential issues with white gel-coats, I'd ALSO be pleased to write a check for one in SuBlueru.

[StatGSR]

I'd ALSO be pleased to write a check for one in SuBlueru.

It's World Rally Blue guys, WRB for short...

[Silvertop]

It's World Rally Blue guys, WRB for short...

Thanks for straightening that out.

Whatever we call it, it would be an excellent choice for one of the colors -- along with white, if it can be done without QAQC issues.

[AZJoker]

in Subaru Blue (or SuBlueru as I will call it :D) please...
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/01ad1714.jpg

I wonder how it looked if they tweaked the front fender a little like the gen 1 Viper?????

[AZJoker]

I meant like how the door on the Gen 1 Viper came into/underneath.

[AZJoker]

Like this

[AZJoker]

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=first+viper&um=1&hl=en&biw=1191&bih=435&tbm=isch&tbnid=CANU2d1FkmoS9M:&imgrefurl=http://www.allpar.com/model/viphist.htm&docid=KX5c1cu--vhF7M&w=808&h=308&ei=5tIxTpvOH8XqgQfIor2DDQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=156&page=1&tbnh=66&tbnw=172&start=0&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=136&ty=29

[olpro]

A while back there were a bunch of posts putting down the contest winning design. Frankly a lot of us were getting tired of the whining and complaints about that design, especially considering the fact that the actual selection for production was still pending – awaiting the results of clay model development.
Frankly, it is just as IRRITATING to see the current promotion of (some people’s) favorite entry. For heaven’s sake, grow up, you are not still in high school (at least I don't think so).
I will not tell you to stop it… I just want to point out how JUVENILE you look when you do this. Why don’t you wait until this grinds through its inevitable selection process, with the clay model development, etc. to see which designs actually hold up instead of campaigning like preteen school girls for your fav?

[305mouse]

I will not tell you to stop it… I just want to point out how JUVENILE you look when you do this....... instead of campaigning like preteen school girls for your fav?

Where do I text my vote to? J/K

[NicksPapaw]

I don't want to grow up! :p If I do, then I must become responsible and all that junk. If I actually become responsible, I would have to quit spending money like a drunken sailor on completely irresponsible hobbies like building cars. :)

[kach22i]

A while back there were a bunch of posts putting down the contest winning design. Frankly a lot of us were getting tired of the whining and complaints about that design, especially considering the fact that the actual selection for production was still pending – awaiting the results of clay model development.
Frankly, it is just as IRRITATING to see the current promotion of (some people’s) favorite entry. For heaven’s sake, grow up, you are not still in high school (at least I don't think so).
I will not tell you to stop it… I just want to point out how JUVENILE you look when you do this. Why don’t you wait until this grinds through its inevitable selection process, with the clay model development, etc. to see which designs actually hold up instead of campaigning like preteen school girls for your fav?
I agree 100%

Also knowing that Dave Smith said there are 50 out of the +700 designs which may be worthy of building (paraphrasing here), and only a small fraction have been posted (mysteriously +95% of the ones they have posted have been posted before by the entrants), well - it's just hard to take the attitude of "one design is better than all the others", when we have not seen the others.

That's my run on sentence or rant and rave.

[blueafro]

It's World Rally Blue guys, WRB for short...

It's actually State Express 555 (cigarettes) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_Express_555) blue.

[mekeys]

I would like to see all 700 so that I could judge for myself.I saw several others posted that I liked better than the three that were picked..

MK

[kach22i]

I would like to see all 700 so that I could judge for myself.I saw several others posted that I liked better than the three that were picked..

MK
We have seen some very crude hand drawn entries, and some computer generated entries others thought were a practical joke of some kind. I'd like to spare myself the pain of looking at some of those, good intentions aside. The enthusiastic efforts I'm sure were appreciated by the FFR group, but not posting some of the more confused ones would spare unnecessary public ridicule.

[crobin4]

I think of track days as being constant-boost scenarios, thus likely to heat up the intercooler quite a bit. Only if airflow is sufficient will it keep the intercooler cool.

Anything less than track (or the right autocross scenario) and the intercooler will have long periods of no boost, allowing insufficient airflow to do "catch up" cooling of the intercooler.

Now, mounting the intercooler on top of the engine may introduce a different kind of heat soak, but I haven't got much of an idea of how extreme that could be...

Water to air. water to air....

[mekeys]

I can take it (seeing all 700) and i'd also like to see a web cam on the work being done on the 1/4 scale models......

MK

[AZJoker]

A while back there were a bunch of posts putting down the contest winning design. Frankly a lot of us were getting tired of the whining and complaints about that design, especially considering the fact that the actual selection for production was still pending – awaiting the results of clay model development.
Frankly, it is just as IRRITATING to see the current promotion of (some people’s) favorite entry. For heaven’s sake, grow up, you are not still in high school (at least I don't think so).
I will not tell you to stop it… I just want to point out how JUVENILE you look when you do this. Why don’t you wait until this grinds through its inevitable selection process, with the clay model development, etc. to see which designs actually hold up instead of campaigning like preteen school girls for your fav?

I have always liked the TVR Tuscan type rear lights and have even debated doing this to the spec racer

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=tuscan+tvr&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&tbm=isch&tbnid=066gg7BtvGV-JM:&imgrefurl=http://members.fortunecity.com/freecarwallpapers/tvr_01.htm&docid=9zPPx_p4M9DwXM&w=800&h=600&ei=mAkzTofJCpG_gQee3pydDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=813&vpy=247&dur=31&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=184&ty=107&page=1&tbnh=118&tbnw=166&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0&biw=1120&bih=562

[AZJoker]

We have seen some very crude hand drawn entries, and some computer generated entries others thought were a practical joke of some kind. I'd like to spare myself the pain of looking at some of those, good intentions aside. The enthusiastic efforts I'm sure were appreciated by the FFR group, but not posting some of the more confused ones would spare unnecessary public ridicule.

Whatever they decide I am sure it will be great. :)

[slopoke]

Is this really Dave's Project Updates thread? ... Sorry for being so impatient Dave

[bromikl]

Funny... When I followed AZJoker's link, my browser blocked it as a known malicious website.

[RM1SepEx]

I'm stoked, My current project list includes a 100% original tube framed electric reverse trike, a 1969 Saab Sonett, a 1990/1994 Mazda Miata 1.8 ....

I want/need a new mid engined autocross car and the 818 is PERFECT. I'm stoked that Dave's favorite design is mine as well so I'm hoping that some sort of that design makes the final cut. I'm looking for a targa with the opportunity for a minimalist soft top, with a full height windshield, that design should fill many needs if the body behind the head rests includes a stout bar.

With the design weight and RWD only the stock WRX drivetrain should be exceptional for performance and reliability

My wife (of 27 years...) already approved purchase so when available I'll be jumping in with the cash and ordering a kit!

The copperhead color that was shown earlier in this thread would be sweet

[mekeys]

Funny... When I followed AZJoker's link, my browser blocked it as a known malicious website.

It did for me too ,but it asked if I wanted to continue,So I did and then the picture came up..

MK

[AZJoker]

If I was more tek savy I would be able to post the pic. :(

[coolbluelb]

Anyway, the most important point here is that this car is 2wd. That's half the traction. Gear strength will simply not be an issue.

What he said... I blew up 2nd gear on my stage II 05 LGT after 46k miles... the engine is a torque monster, but that is a 3600 pound car with AWD. A RWD car of this weight will simply spin the tires.

[kach22i]

A RWD car of this weight will simply spin the tires.

Or have a severe case of wheel hop.

[Steve91T]

Or have a severe case of wheel hop.

With IRS? Maybe if it had a solid rear axle...

[305mouse]

Dave

[Niburu]

A RWD car of this weight will simply spin the tires.


Or have a severe case of wheel hop.


With IRS? Maybe if it had a solid rear axle...

maybe wear lighter shoes?

I've got a good friend with a 3rd gen RX7 with an LS2 swap in it, yeah if you mash the pedal you'll just sit there, but otherwise at about half throttle you get a decent lanch

[slopoke]

Earth to Dave ... Come in Dave ... I think this thread has morphed

[scartaan]

If we are trying to help design the 818, what would be the consensus on using the glass hatch from the '65 coupe. It would display the engine, give access to the engine, and the weight would counterbalance the gas tank in the front of the car.

[kach22i]

If we are trying to help design the 818, what would be the consensus on using the glass hatch from the '65 coupe. It would display the engine, give access to the engine, and the weight would counterbalance the gas tank in the front of the car.

A lot of "supercars" do something similar as you already know, and I think it's pretty cool myself.

I did a twist on the concept, utilizing the low profile of the Boxer engine, combined with a high roofline. To save weight, and to be a little different I did not use glass, I proposed a wire mesh or perforated metal exposing a partial open tray below (with spare tire) and thus allowing heat to escape.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/#!cpZZ2QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/GKA-Scheme1-top.jpg

Do you have a particular design in mind in which you would like to apply this concept?

[thebeerbaron]

utilizing the low profile of the Boxer engine

Not to thread-jack this much further, but while I've been re-engine-ing my donor, I've come to the conclusion that the notion of the EJ engine (especially the turbo) being "low profile" is bunk. The intake manifold adds significant height to the motor assembly. From a single throttle plate centered along the crank, the runners have to spread out a good distance horizontally to reach the intake ports. This is done with some nice curves which result in a rather high intake manifold. The turbo isn't taller than the intake manifold, but definitely sits above the right-side cylinder head. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing isn't about the same height as an inline four, even ignoring the stock intercooler (which adds even more height). You could definitely argue that most of the mass is lower, but there's still height.

[305mouse]

spare tire? I would rather louvered vents then mesh, keep the rain out just in case. +1 beerbaron. The mass is low, but the intake manifold and TMIC def add height. Use a newer Legacy GT engine and the turbo sits down right betwen the exhaust manifold. Real short piping with that setup. Oh, DAVE, please?

[kach22i]

"low profile" is bunk.
Well it's not high profile, now is it?

The engine fills out the engine bay, up to the top of the hood as much as any other modern car. However Subies don't have tall truck-ish hoods like retro-muscle cars.

I'll agree with you, it's the mass which is lower, not an actual height. The Subie is not a Corvair despite them both being boxer layouts.

http://www.subaru.com/engineering/boxer-engine.html
3330


spare tire? I would rather louvered vents then mesh, keep the rain out just in case.

You can put anything in the tray above the engine on my design, I like rally cars but not a big fan of putting extra tires on the hood, roof or trunk.

Louvered vents?

Why not a Disco ball to go with the 1970's-80's theme?

Lighten up.

[305mouse]

Louvered vents?

Why not a Disco ball to go with the 1970's-80's theme?

Lighten up.

lol, I'll get my rollerskates ready

[16g-95gsx]

I've come to the conclusion that the notion of the EJ engine (especially the turbo) being "low profile" is bunk.

Welcome to what I've said all along. I think the concept of the H4 being a low CG is BS and a heavy marketing ploy. On a standard inline 4 cylinder you have the majority of the mass in the block, being a iron/forged crank, reciprocating assembly, pulleys, oil pan/pickup, and possibly even an iron block. I can't think of any 4 cylinder that I've come across that had anything other than an aluminum cylinder head. The weight of my 4g63 head was 30lbs, this included valvetrain components, but did not include cams or a valve cover, which on many 4 cylinders is all of a few lbs. This meant out of the 180-200lbs of mass that was in my 4g63, only 35-40lbs of the was above the block's deck height. HOWEVER, unlike the boxer engine, all of my manifolds were horizontal to the head, not vertical, this included all of my accessories, throttle, etc. I use a 4g63 just as an example, but ANY inline 4 cylinder is done the same way, some of them including things like magnesium/plastic valve covers and such that just further lower the CG. The other complication comes from having TWO cylinder heads. You now add excess weight from unnecessary waste material. The EJ20 heads weigh 20lbs, my 4g63 head weighed 30lbs. Thats 10 lbs of extra weight for essentially nothing.

I have never seen a true dedicated comparison, but I honestly think the concept of CG with these engines is likely more marketing BS than anything, as to an untrained eye they can easily say "yea it's sideways it has to be a lower CG". I will not say that it isn't lower, just it is likely to be FAR less drastic of a change than more people give these engines credit for, and ultimately I don't think it would effect vehicle performance.

[16g-95gsx]

Well it's not high profile, now is it?

The engine fills out the engine bay, up to the top of the hood as much as any other modern car. However Subies don't have tall truck-ish hoods like retro-muscle cars.

I'll agree with you, it's the mass which is lower, not an actual height. The Subie is not a Corvair despite them both being boxer layouts.

http://www.subaru.com/engineering/boxer-engine.html
3330


What's with the grossly exaggerated suspension squatting on the non-H engines? That looks like a brochure from subaru. I also love how you can clearly see manifolds attached to the I4, but there is nothing coming out of the top or the bottom of the H4. Tag on the spider-like intake manifold of the EJ engine, and the unnecessarily large exhaust manifold out of the bottom of the engine and I think that picture would look a heck of a lot closer. Also I4's dont always have to be horizontally opposed, run them front to back such as a 240sx, or any fwd I4 that would be used in an 818 application and you wouldnt have any weight bias side to side other than an offset in manifold/turbo weights.

[kach22i]

That looks like a brochure from subaru.
It is follow the link above the image to find the source.

To find the moment generated or force, you multiply the distance from the ground to the center of engine mass, right?

Therefore if two engines weigh the same, but one has a slightly higher center of mass, this extra distance gets multiplied, which is why is has such a profound affect, right?

I wonder if any of the car magazines have done a comparative study of common engines in regards to center of mass.

[Oppenheimer]

Welcome to what I've said all along.

Um, that isn't what BeerBaron said. He said the idea of the overall engine height being low is bunk. He took pains to distinguish his comment from refering to the mass placement, but to focus on how much space the engine takes up, as in if there is more potential for trunk room above the engine then there would be with a traditional inline 4.

[thebeerbaron]

(this post was directed at some personal attack comments that have since been removed, please ignore it)

Dial it back people!

Everyone is welcome here if they play nice. And there's more than one person failing to do that in this thread.

Now, everyone behave, or no 818 for you! (I recommend having a beer or two to calm nerves and repair hurt feelings)

[David]

Welcome to what I've said all along. I think the concept of the H4 being a low CG is BS and a heavy marketing ploy. On a standard inline 4 cylinder you have the majority of the mass in the block, being a iron/forged crank, reciprocating assembly, pulleys, oil pan/pickup, and possibly even an iron block. I can't think of any 4 cylinder that I've come across that had anything other than an aluminum cylinder head. The weight of my 4g63 head was 30lbs, this included valvetrain components, but did not include cams or a valve cover, which on many 4 cylinders is all of a few lbs. This meant out of the 180-200lbs of mass that was in my 4g63, only 35-40lbs of the was above the block's deck height. HOWEVER, unlike the boxer engine, all of my manifolds were horizontal to the head, not vertical, this included all of my accessories, throttle, etc. I use a 4g63 just as an example, but ANY inline 4 cylinder is done the same way, some of them including things like magnesium/plastic valve covers and such that just further lower the CG. The other complication comes from having TWO cylinder heads. You now add excess weight from unnecessary waste material. The EJ20 heads weigh 20lbs, my 4g63 head weighed 30lbs. Thats 10 lbs of extra weight for essentially nothing.

I have never seen a true dedicated comparison, but I honestly think the concept of CG with these engines is likely more marketing BS than anything, as to an untrained eye they can easily say "yea it's sideways it has to be a lower CG". I will not say that it isn't lower, just it is likely to be FAR less drastic of a change than more people give these engines credit for, and ultimately I don't think it would effect vehicle performance.

Something you may be forgetting, is the mass of the block above the crank(cylinders etc). Its not that you loose the weight compared to a standard inline/V motor, but you move it much lower. It can have a fairly profound effect on the handing of a car as it affects the CG and the roll axis inclination of the car which affects handling dynamics. Im guessing the subaru motor moves more than 50-70lbs 8-12 inchs lower in the chassis(or more) compared to an upright motor of the same configuration. If you dont that thats much, tie 50 lbs to a rope and start swinging it in a circle :D

A lower CG allows one to lower the roll center without impacting roll of the car, reducing jacking forces, reducing bar diameters and increasing grip and responsiveness... all other things being equal. Same reason Porsche uses this type of motor. Its also inherently a very smooth running design.

David

[scartaan]

Smooth running is because the boxer 4 has primary balance. An in-line 4 larger than 2L usually involves a heavy,power robbing balance shaft.

[Flamshackle]

the weight it much lower than a inline four even if aesthetically it is not much shorter... you can reap real benefits of low profile headers and a dry sump setup to get it ground huggingly low however.

its an excellent choice in motor for the application over an inline equivalent...

[el_jefe]

Smooth running is because the boxer 4 has primary balance. An in-line 4 larger than 2L usually involves a heavy,power robbing balance shaft.


True, but on many cars that balance shaft is for NVH reasons and can be removed if you don't mind a rougher idle.

[TroyLynx]

16g-95gsx you mentioned "I can't think of any 4 cylinder that I've come across that had anything other than an aluminum head". My Chevette had a Iron head 4 cylinder. And it was fast. 0-60 in 2 minutes with the Air-Conditioner off.

[2KWIK4U]

0-60 in 2 minutes with the Air-Conditioner off.

WOW that is fast, I had a sunbird that would only do 0-60 in 1 hr... :)

[D2W]

Something you may be forgetting, is the mass of the block above the crank(cylinders etc). Its not that you loose the weight compared to a standard inline/V motor, but you move it much lower. It can have a fairly profound effect on the handing of a car as it affects the CG and the roll axis inclination of the car which affects handling dynamics. Im guessing the subaru motor moves more than 50-70lbs 8-12 inchs lower in the chassis(or more) compared to an upright motor of the same configuration. If you dont that thats much, tie 50 lbs to a rope and start swinging it in a circle :D

A lower CG allows one to lower the roll center without impacting roll of the car, reducing jacking forces, reducing bar diameters and increasing grip and responsiveness... all other things being equal. Same reason Porsche uses this type of motor. Its also inherently a very smooth running design.

David

David, knowing that you have done a bunch of suspension research I have a couple of questions. Let's assume you are correct that a typical inline-4 has fifty pounds of weight 8-12 inches higher above the crank. And lets say both engine/tranny combos weigh the same at say 350 lbs. (I'm pulling these numbers out of the air). How much higher is the center of gravity on the inline-4 vs the boxer 4? A couple of inches? Now if you compare those two engines in the same car (which weighs 2500 lbs) in which I would assume (again please tell me if I'm wrong) the center of gravity of the whole car is higher than the center of gravity of the engine/tranny how much does the engine difference change the entire cars cog. Maybe a quarter of an inch? less/more? How much of a real world difference does it make? I've watch 911's racing corvettes/mustangs/bmw's for years and there is obviously not much of a difference. I'm not arguing that there is a difference in cog, just wondering how much it really is.

[Flashburn]

WOW that is fast, I had a sunbird that would only do 0-60 in 1 hr... :)

0-60 miles in one hour sounds about right.

[16g-95gsx]

Dial it back people!

Everyone is welcome here if they play nice. And there's more than one person failing to do that in this thread.

Now, everyone behave, or no 818 for you! (I recommend having a beer or two to calm nerves and repair hurt feelings)

There's not a hint of anger coming from me, I just enjoy indepth technical discussions. I see no harm in that.

[16g-95gsx]

Something you may be forgetting, is the mass of the block above the crank(cylinders etc). Its not that you loose the weight compared to a standard inline/V motor, but you move it much lower. It can have a fairly profound effect on the handing of a car as it affects the CG and the roll axis inclination of the car which affects handling dynamics. Im guessing the subaru motor moves more than 50-70lbs 8-12 inchs lower in the chassis(or more) compared to an upright motor of the same configuration. If you dont that thats much, tie 50 lbs to a rope and start swinging it in a circle :D

A lower CG allows one to lower the roll center without impacting roll of the car, reducing jacking forces, reducing bar diameters and increasing grip and responsiveness... all other things being equal. Same reason Porsche uses this type of motor. Its also inherently a very smooth running design.

David

I don't deny that the boxer engine has a lower total CG, I even admitted that in the post. HOWEVER, my concern is that this lower CG is not as drastic as many make it out to be. The weight of inline 4 cylinders is very small. An all aluminum block may weigh only 60lbs total, an iron block around 90. When you realize that regardless of engine configuration that you WILL have weight in your engine block, the difference between the two configurations is very small and also would have a very small height difference. I just simply don't think it's as drastic of an effect as everyone makes it out to be. Is it there? Certainly. But I just don't think it's a major influence.

Like I said I don't have any real world measurements other than the weights of components that I've personally weighed. But when everything is considered a standard inline 4 cylinder engine is not that tall, and the majority of the weight is in the block anyway. As for someone commenting on dry sump systems, that's a universal concept that can be applied to any engine, I can show you off-the-shelf dry sump systems for virtually all of the major 4 cylinder engines out there, of course including subaru.

[thebeerbaron]

There's not a hint of anger coming from me, I just enjoy indepth technical discussions. I see no harm in that.

That was directed at some personal attack posts that have since been edited out. Not sure why my post was left, I will edit it later to clarify.

[jimgood]

I just love how a thread entitled "818 Project Updates From Dave" has completely taken on a life of its own.

No worries, Dave. We don't need no stinking updates! We can find things to discuss and debate on our own, thank you very much. :p

[16g-95gsx]

When there are no addditional updates the thread will run wild :)

[thebeerbaron]

Over in the Drivetrain Dimensions (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2774-Drivetrain-Dimensions) thread, I posted some accurate but not engineering-quality measurements of the EJ205 engine as it is dressed for my 2002 WRX wagon.

Generally, the engine would (barely) fit in a box 16.25" L x 31.5" W x 23.5" H, give or take.

Going with what I know and the first Google search result (http://www.soaringeaglewindchimes.com/dw/locost/miata.html) (read - I just found this and can't prove it's correct), the 1.8L BP-ZE engine in my Miata can be described by a box:

17" L x 21" W x 24" H.

The center of gravity is undoubtably lower in the boxer, however I will now consider my original hypothesis, that the turbo Subaru motor is not advantageously short in height to be proven.

Back to you, Dave :)

[kach22i]

glass hatch

Look no further than the GTM by FFR, nice idea, see posts #25 & 27.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?1278-Finished-GTM-Pictures

Found a vented screen back window GTM one too.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?1278-Finished-GTM-Pictures/page2

I have to take back my Disco-Ball comment, in glass the louvers aren't half bad and not Retro at all.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?1278-Finished-GTM-Pictures/page2

[bromikl]

Eh. I'm not sold on the window covering the engine - unless you've got a beauty like THIS under the glass.

3434

[thebeerbaron]

Something to note: the 65 Coupe glass is not exactly cheap and took some serious finesse to get right. Glass is also heavy. Not sure it would fit in the dollar or weight budget.

[Movieman]

Eh. I'm not sold on the window covering the engine - unless you've got a beauty like THIS under the glass.

3434
You'd want to show off that piddly 2800cc engine?:D
Put that 600HP beast in the back of a 818 and you could start it, stick in gear and step outside and watch it just sit there
and melt the tires and rims..:eek:

[bromikl]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaren_MP4-12C

"The car is powered by the M838T 3.8 litre twin-turbo V8 engine... It produces 592 bhp (441 kW; 600 PS) and 443 lb·ft (601 N·m) of torque. It has a redline of 8,500 rpm, with 80% of torque available at just 2,000 rpm.

"McLaren have stated the MP4-12C can accelerate from 0 to 200 km/h (124 mph) in 8.9 seconds.[14] The car will have a top speed in excess of 322 km/h (200 mph) and will be able to brake from 200 km/h (124 mph) to a complete stop in under five seconds. Braking from 100 km/h (62 mph) to zero can be done in under 30 metres (98 ft), around seven car lengths. It is expected the 12C will complete the standard quarter mile in slightly less than 11 seconds." (Emphasis added.)

Yes. If I had that engine, I'd put it under glass.

[slopoke]

3466 This is my current favorite motor ... 3.0 L capable of nearly 1000 hp in tt setup and redlines at about 10.5K. The only drawbacks are price and longevity. It costs about $30,000 w/o turbos and needs to be rebuilt after about 50 hours of racing. It still puts out around 475 hp w/o turbos ... and that's before cams, valve train upgrades, and porting. Kinda makes me wish I had money tree ... sigh

[blueafro]

3466 This is my current favorite motor

So, what is it?

[Flamshackle]

3466 This is my current favorite motor ...

ditto... what is it? i like it already!

[Niburu]

I'd rather do a peripheral ported 20B over any of those motors

[slopoke]

It's a Hartley V8. just type h1v8 into your search engine ... that should get the juices flowing:)

[slopoke]

Did I forget to mention it only weighs about 200 pounds in n/a form?

[Niburu]

keep in mind a big part of the lure of the 818 will be the relatively cheap build price
spendy engines and drivetrains would throw that out the window
and if there is going to be a specific challenge series for the marque
it'll be for a very specific kind of build

[jimgood]

C'mon, Niburu. Let 'em dream.

[Ks2]

a wankel rotary would be fun... one of the new renisis engines perhaps, the lack of torque on the bottom end would be less of an issue with the lower weight, of course i would rather have a turbo boxer or MPG tuned TDI before i got a rotary...

[Flamshackle]

It's a Hartley V8. just type h1v8 into your search engine ... that should get the juices flowing:)

I want three of them! no news in the last four years however??? that seems suspicious?

[Horhay]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the top of your Miata engine's box is full of heads and other fairly heavy things. The Subaru engine box has all those heavy things towards the bottom/middle of the box, with the top holding things like the intercooler.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the EJ205's mass is likely concentrated lower even given similar overall dimensions.

[StatGSR]

^ yup that's been covered numerous times....

[thebeerbaron]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the top of your Miata engine's box is full of heads and other fairly heavy things. The Subaru engine box has all those heavy things towards the bottom/middle of the box, with the top holding things like the intercooler.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the EJ205's mass is likely concentrated lower even given similar overall dimensions.

<facepalm>
Not to be a jerk, but did you even read the post?



The center of gravity is undoubtably lower in the boxer, however I will now consider my original hypothesis, that the turbo Subaru motor is not advantageously short in height to be proven.

In other words, we agree. The point I sought to prove was that you did not magically have room on top of the engine for things like spare tires, cheerleading squads, or any of the other "cool" ideas floated around here "because the engine is so short". I did that, and then everyone circles back to saying I forgot about mass. Trust me, I didn't.

[818_Fan_15]

Since there are no project updates from Dave, maybe we should make up our own?

I'm making up a rumor that there will be a Lexan engine cover to showcase the car like an Audi R8, Ferrari, Lamborghini, *insert supercar name here*

http://image.automobilemag.com/f/7237866+w750+st0/0612_z+2008_audi_r8+engine_cover.jpg

Of course with all the ducts and intercooler, it'll look more like the R8 Diesel:

http://images.motortrend.com/auto_shows/coverage/detroit/112_2008_detroit_auto_show_11z+audi_R8_V12_TDI_con cept+engine_cover.jpg

[Horhay]

Yeah, I did, but it was before 6am out here in Washington, and I was still a bit out of it. My apologies.

I will however float the idea that the top mounted intercooler, while a decent solution for the stock WRX application, may not be the most ideal solution in the 818 and therefore the overall engine height may not be as tall as with your EJ205. The intake manifold is really your limiting factor and I would guess that measurement is at least a couple of inches different. Still no room for spare tires or cheerleading squads, unfortunately.

[thebeerbaron]

The measurement was to the top of the intake manifold, not the intercooler.

[kach22i]

The point I sought to prove was that you did not magically have room on top of the engine for things like spare tires..........
Not to get off track, but it just depends on your design. The five year old clay car design I tried to modify to fit the template is a truck compared to other designs, and can hold a lot of spare tires for road rally events. What can I say? I really liked the old Stratos, the louvered hood vents concealing a spare tire below, in the flow of the radiator - this was retained.

The tire in my top view watercolor was intended to show storage potential, the real spare location is up front for crash and weight distributions reasons.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/GKA-tire-storage-study.jpg

I was not happy with my translation from clay to line, and felt I missed the mark. I have since done more sketches trying to capture the essence of that design, and will most likely keep on it until I get it right.

I'm not sure the 95 percentile male is an even 6-foot tall. The human template I got off the Internet was printed out by me to six inches tall, and cut up at the joints. If accurate, this figure is larger than what FFR gave us. No way is there an extra 3-inches under the seat for a gas tank using my new template. Sorry Wookies, but be happy that Dave said it is no longer "under seat".

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/GKA-95percentile-template.jpg

The original template was a bit generous in the transmission/transaxle region in my opinion. The engine height seemed about right to me, but with improved aftermarket intercooler who knows?

[thebeerbaron]

George, you could have done the exact same design over a Miata engine, or other I4s, and probably Vs. The boxer makes no difference in the height of your design.

[kach22i]

George, you could have done the exact same design over a Miata engine, or other I4s, and probably Vs. The boxer makes no difference in the height of your design.
I agree, they all seem to be about 2-feet high.

.......................which was your original point if I recall correctly.

[scartaan]

3505 Maserati Merak
Another thought on rear end treatment. Lightweight, inexpensive, and allows airscoop to intercooler.

[kach22i]

3505 Maserati Merak
I love that car. One of my schemes incorporated similar buttresses, definitely inspired by the Merak.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/#!cpZZ2QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/WEB-SCHEME6-REAR.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/WEB-SCHEME6-FRONT.jpg

[prematureapex]

Dave :cool:


Just one question and I'll leave you alone.


Do you foresee the "track" model having any trouble being registered for road use?

[Niburu]

^it will depend on your local state laws
for example, here in VA I can NOT register an Aerial Atom - mainly because it has no windsheild
in CA or Fla it's perfectly fine to do so

[Dave Smith]

Holy COW! I cannot get enough time to read thru this post! Yeah, the track car will be "registerable" but more details on the models and specs when we unveil the scale models. I am going to post an open questipon on the body design side. I have promissed to post all the voluminous submissons and the only reason we havent is the time to actuall get them posted. IF anyone here wants to help out and work with Mad dog here at FFR, I think we could get all the design submissions up fairly quickly. We would of course compensate the person with worthless promo parts and questionable recognition on this forum and our website.

[Movieman]

Holy COW! I cannot get enough time to read thru this post! Yeah, the track car will be "registerable" but more details on the models and specs when we unveil the scale models. I am going to post an open questipon on the body design side. I have promissed to post all the voluminous submissons and the only reason we havent is the time to actuall get them posted. IF anyone here wants to help out and work with Mad dog here at FFR, I think we could get all the design submissions up fairly quickly. We would of course compensate the person with worthless promo parts and questionable recognition on this forum and our website.
In this world where we all need to laugh more this one brought out a belly laugh in me.:D
Nice to see a good sense of humor!

[scartaan]

Katch22i- Love your "Merak" inspired design. The flying buttresses are already fixed on the chassis and this open design allows maximum rear quarter view- which is key for comfortable driving.

[3pedal]

Holy COW! I cannot get enough time to read thru this post! Yeah, the track car will be "registerable" but more details on the models and specs when we unveil the scale models. I am going to post an open questipon on the body design side. I have promissed to post all the voluminous submissons and the only reason we havent is the time to actuall get them posted. IF anyone here wants to help out and work with Mad dog here at FFR, I think we could get all the design submissions up fairly quickly. We would of course compensate the person with worthless promo parts and questionable recognition on this forum and our website.

What kind of help do you need? I can always use more stuff.

[adesilva]

Holy COW! I cannot get enough time to read thru this post! Yeah, the track car will be "registerable" but more details on the models and specs when we unveil the scale models. I am going to post an open questipon on the body design side. I have promissed to post all the voluminous submissons and the only reason we havent is the time to actuall get them posted. IF anyone here wants to help out and work with Mad dog here at FFR, I think we could get all the design submissions up fairly quickly. We would of course compensate the person with worthless promo parts and questionable recognition on this forum and our website.

I would be more than happy to help with anything and I am in the area.

[spaceywilly]

Holy COW! I cannot get enough time to read thru this post! Yeah, the track car will be "registerable" but more details on the models and specs when we unveil the scale models. I am going to post an open questipon on the body design side. I have promissed to post all the voluminous submissons and the only reason we havent is the time to actuall get them posted. IF anyone here wants to help out and work with Mad dog here at FFR, I think we could get all the design submissions up fairly quickly. We would of course compensate the person with worthless promo parts and questionable recognition on this forum and our website.

Hi Dave,

I am also in the area and would be glad to help with this. I am a software programmer by trade so with a little bit of information I can try to get an automated process going for posting up the entries.

[16g-95gsx]

Thats what I wanted to hear Dave. I would want the car to be streetable but more performance oriented than a traditional street car, which I'm sure any track model that you introduced would be. As long as I know it still intends to be registerable then that likely conforms to what I'd be looked for. I don't want a daily driver but rather a weekend fun car.

As far as handing out information, at this point in time you have the interest of a few people but the real interest will be generated when the official designs are completed. The time you spend on the 818 I feel at this point is best spent just nailing down proper designs rather than giving out bits and pieces in the meantime just to keep us impatient folks salivating.

[David]

David, knowing that you have done a bunch of suspension research I have a couple of questions. Let's assume you are correct that a typical inline-4 has fifty pounds of weight 8-12 inches higher above the crank. And lets say both engine/tranny combos weigh the same at say 350 lbs. (I'm pulling these numbers out of the air). How much higher is the center of gravity on the inline-4 vs the boxer 4? A couple of inches? Now if you compare those two engines in the same car (which weighs 2500 lbs) in which I would assume (again please tell me if I'm wrong) the center of gravity of the whole car is higher than the center of gravity of the engine/tranny how much does the engine difference change the entire cars cog. Maybe a quarter of an inch? less/more? How much of a real world difference does it make? I've watch 911's racing corvettes/mustangs/bmw's for years and there is obviously not much of a difference. I'm not arguing that there is a difference in cog, just wondering how much it really is.

Sorry for the delay... I can understand your logic. I havent done the math, but based on things I have read/heard and some practical experience as well I think with an experienced driver on a well setup car would feel it for sure. With that said, all of that roll etc can be tuned out of a car with springs, bars and shocks. This is why you dont see much diff between a 911 and a Corvette on the track etc, but for the stuff I mentioned in my first post, they all affect maximum grip capability along with the way the car transitions. I suspect this is especially true for a rear/mid engine design. In general, its always better to lower the CG in a performance car.

David

[D2W]

Sorry for the delay... I can understand your logic. I havent done the math, but based on things I have read/heard and some practical experience as well I think with an experienced driver on a well setup car would feel it for sure. With that said, all of that roll etc can be tuned out of a car with springs, bars and shocks. This is why you dont see much diff between a 911 and a Corvette on the track etc, but for the stuff I mentioned in my first post, they all affect maximum grip capability along with the way the car transitions. I suspect this is especially true for a rear/mid engine design. In general, its always better to lower the CG in a performance car.

David

Interesting, and what common sense would tell us. Being an engineering geek I would like to experiment with the same chassis but different styles of engines, and see what real world differences there really are.

[kach22i]

Interesting, and what common sense would tell us. Being an engineering geek I would like to experiment with the same chassis but different styles of engines, and see what real world differences there really are.

In the real world other things like driver skill, track familiarity, tire selection and so forth might make as large of difference as anything else.

To be clear, theory is more enjoyable to talk about (in my opinion) because future events with many variables out of our knowledge base or control is just too frustrating to imagine.

To set an example - a story I read about (sorry that I'm fuzzy on the details) ; a well known professional race car driver took a Stock Car (race car) to a race track which was set up with a different type of race car in mind; Can-Am /Rolex Prototype or something along those lines. He ended up breaking or coming very close to breaking the track record. There is your unaccounted for variable, the driver which can drive the wheels off anything, anywhere, anytime.

My two cents, the Boxer engine is superior for momentum type racing, Porsche has proven this time and time again.

http://press.porsche.com/motorsport/

Over the course of the last 57 years the world-famous manufacturer from Stuttgart has tasted success in numerous areas and categories of motorsport, winning races and championships on virtually every level of the sport. It is the most successful manufacturer by far in the history of international sports car racing.

[Niburu]

It is the most successful manufacturer by far in the history of international sports car racing.
thats because the Miata hasn't been around for 60 years.....yet

[Twinspool]

thats because the Miata hasn't been around for 60 years.....yet

Miata on the Mulsanne straight? Lol!

[thebeerbaron]

Miata on the Mulsanne straight? Lol!

They've been to some strange places...

http://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=24926&d=1156358071

info (http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=196881&highlight=Salt+Flats)

[Ray]

...
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/images/xabier818r.jpg
My personal favorite design,

Oh yeah, I'd build that!!!!!

Ray

[D2W]

My two cents, the Boxer engine is superior for momentum type racing, Porsche has proven this time and time again.

http://press.porsche.com/motorsport/

I think porsche has been successful because the engines are a great design that were put together better hence much more reliable, and no other manufacturer has had as much involvement in sports car racing for the last 57 years. Any design advantages that the boxer engine has in a low cog has got to be negated by the fundamentally flawed chassis design. However, as was stated above most problems can be solved by properly setting up the chassis and having the right driver.

[kach22i]

I think porsche .........fundamentally flawed chassis design.
We are talking about the 911 of course, and yes it's a great car in spite of the rear engine, not because of it.

[bobzdar]

Thats what I wanted to hear Dave. I would want the car to be streetable but more performance oriented than a traditional street car, which I'm sure any track model that you introduced would be. As long as I know it still intends to be registerable then that likely conforms to what I'd be looked for. I don't want a daily driver but rather a weekend fun car.

As far as handing out information, at this point in time you have the interest of a few people but the real interest will be generated when the official designs are completed. The time you spend on the 818 I feel at this point is best spent just nailing down proper designs rather than giving out bits and pieces in the meantime just to keep us impatient folks salivating.

It'll be barely perceptible, but when building a performance vehicle, you don't leave anything on the table. If going for a 4 cylinder engine and a boxer is readily available, why wouldn't you use it? Same as moving a battery from high up at the very end of the car to low down near the center. That single change will be barely perceptible, but when you make 7 or 8 design decisions in that vein, they all add up making a notiecable difference. If you're expecting to know how much laptime a boxer vs. an I4 will gain you everything else the same, nobody is really going to have that. It's one design decision among many.

[Kwizatz-haderah]

I'm excited

[Gollum]

I'm excited

But are you a bene-gesserit puppet?

[16g-95gsx]

It'll be barely perceptible, but when building a performance vehicle, you don't leave anything on the table. If going for a 4 cylinder engine and a boxer is readily available, why wouldn't you use it? Same as moving a battery from high up at the very end of the car to low down near the center. That single change will be barely perceptible, but when you make 7 or 8 design decisions in that vein, they all add up making a notiecable difference. If you're expecting to know how much laptime a boxer vs. an I4 will gain you everything else the same, nobody is really going to have that. It's one design decision among many.

Because from my own personal opinion I am not entirely sold that the boxer engine IS the ideal engine for this application. I'm not sold that the lower CG is enough to make is more desirable vs other platforms other than the fact it will be a bolt-in vs custom work. Again, I don't really care, it will be what it is and I will be content and consider modifying mine to what I want anyway just like the next guy. I simply am stating my own thoughts.