818 Project Updates From Dave

[Movieman]

HMM, move the driver compartment forward a few inches and get room for a small block ford V8?
Only 1/2 serious here..:D

[kach22i]

HMM, move the driver compartment forward a few inches and get room for a small block ford V8?
Only 1/2 serious here..:D
A fair question.

I used a human figure of 6'-0" tall, and the same FFR eye level. I do not know if a donor Subie's steering column now fits, or would fit moving the driver up.

Based on my own 1977 Porsche 911 and my buddies 1981 Ferrari 308-GTS, both with "pinched feet" (wheel well) compared to typical front engined cars, I say we might be able to advance the driver's seating position 3" to 4" max. That is just a guess, and I do not think standards of +30 years ago apply to todays cars, people are bigger, fatter and demand more leg room.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/GKA-Human-Overlay.jpg

[Silvertop]

But are you a bene-gesserit puppet?

Perhaps a member of the Spacing Guild. Advantage: He won't need an engine. Just need to keep a nice supply of Spice -- then use it to fold space. Should be crazy fast............

[Movieman]

A fair question.

I used a human figure of 6'-0" tall, and the same FFR eye level. I do not know if a donor Subie's steering column now fits, or would fit moving the driver up.

Based on my own 1977 Porsche 911 and my buddies 1981 Ferrari 308-GTS, both with "pinched feet" (wheel well) compared to typical front engined cars, I say we might be able to advance the driver's seating position 3" to 4" max. That is just a guess, and I do not think standards of +30 years ago apply to todays cars, people are bigger, fatter and demand more leg room.


Thanks for not flaming me to hell and back.
I just thought, maybe because of my age,59, and absolutely no knowledge of Subaru engines performance, that in this slick looking design a small midengined V8 even in very mild tune would make for a beast.
Heck, even with something as out of date as an old 289/271HP Ford V8 in that setup would scare the shorts off of most drivers.
Like I said, just my thoughts and I do know I'm way off the fringe of what the rest here think.

[kach22i]

The GTM forum is here:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/forumdisplay.php?4-GTM-Supercar

Might want to check it out, it's a slick ride (V8's fit).

If you want power with a short range, for a short time, I'm guessing electric is the way to go. 4- hub drive units of about 100 hp each otta do it.

[Movieman]

The GTM forum is here:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/forumdisplay.php?4-GTM-Supercar

Might want to check it out, it's a slick ride (V8's fit).
I hear ya and can read between the lines..
As to the GTM, agreed, very slick but too rich for my blood.

[Silvertop]

............Heck, even with something as out of date as an old 289/271HP Ford V8 in that setup would scare the shorts off of most drivers.........

It would indeed! But keep in mind that a stock 2.0 WRX with a few bolt-ons and a moderate ECU tune will be cranking out that kind of scary-shorts power too .............

It's OK to be off on the fringe. Everybody has their own idea about their ideal power plant. At the end of the day, most will opt to build with the components FFR has in mind. But some will not, and that's OK too. And this forum is the perfect place for discussion of those other possibilities.

[Gollum]

Thanks for not flaming me to hell and back.
I just thought, maybe because of my age,59, and absolutely no knowledge of Subaru engines performance, that in this slick looking design a small midengined V8 even in very mild tune would make for a beast.
Heck, even with something as out of date as an old 289/271HP Ford V8 in that setup would scare the shorts off of most drivers.
Like I said, just my thoughts and I do know I'm way off the fringe of what the rest here think.

I'm sure the Hartley V8 would fit. It's 3 liters and makes over 400hp. It's extremely compact and takes up less space than most 4 cylinders. It's certainly much shorter than the subaru flat 4 is wide, so mounting it transversely in the 818 shouldn't be a problem.

But you'd be on your own when it comes to:
Wiring
Mounts
Transmission
Axles
Everything else that goes along with engine swaps

Oh, and the price for all that awesomeness is only around $30k. But you'd have the most amazing 818 around I'm sure.

http://www.h1v8.com/page/page/1562068.htm



Because from my own personal opinion I am not entirely sold that the boxer engine IS the ideal engine for this application. I'm not sold that the lower CG is enough to make is more desirable vs other platforms other than the fact it will be a bolt-in vs custom work. Again, I don't really care, it will be what it is and I will be content and consider modifying mine to what I want anyway just like the next guy. I simply am stating my own thoughts.

I haven't seen it stated from anyone at FFR that the low CG is why this engine was chosen. I personally feel (read, this is my opinion) that the low CG is very little reason at all to choose this engine, as a compact V6 gets pretty darn close in CG and can weigh in close to 350 pounds. Plus that similar V6 would have more displacement to work with as well.

But I DO think there's a very good reason to choose the subie engine, and here's the two biggest reasons I can think of.

1. Length. It's probably the shortest engine readily available. It's short length helps keep the overall length of the vehicle down, and every inch matters when you're shooting for a low target weight. I know the 818 isn't the shortest wheel base car in the wolrd, far from. But FFR is seeming to promise that it'll be much roomier than any mid engine car near it's wheel base.

2. Power for Price when considering availability. You'll have a hard time finding a more readily available motor that makes more reliable power. The fact so many came turbocharged is a great thing for us. It means finding an engine that will easily make 250+ crank HP isn't hard and won't break the bank. And most of the other engines I can think of that are super compact and will make that kind of power aren't exactly cheap. The closest contender would be a transverse nissan VQ35DE as they can make 300hp pretty easily. That being said though, most donor cars have automatics, and they wouldn't make great donor cars when all the other parts are factored in.

The reality ~ Donor cars need to already be performance minded. Look at the donor cars FFR has used thus far. I honestly can't think of a better donor car than a WRX for their current goals for the 818, and I'm not one to speak from bias. I'm not exactly partial to subaru anyways, I just have experience with them.

[Oppenheimer]

Of course, using a transverse mount donor means engine 'length' isn't the factor in vehicle length, engine 'width' would be. But then you lose what I'd consider one of the most important advantages to choosing the Subie drivetrain, the symmetrical layout.

To meet the goals of short yet symmetrical drivetrain, power-weight (+ aftermarket support, tuner knowledge-base), drivetrain interchangeability, donor availability (worldwide), plus other stuff Gollum mentioned, I can't see how anything competes with the drivetrain they chose. And as Gollum pointed out, they weren't just choosing a drivetrain, they were choosing the whole donor.

Oh, its also a flat boxer engine with (at least) marginal cg advantages.

[PhyrraM]

Don't forget that as this car matures and more buyers with different goals start to look at options, the fact that the EJ series of engines have a very high degree of diversification and interchangability will likely be HUGE.

If you include all the world markets, the EJ series has displacments of 1.6 to 2.5 liters OEM and almost 3.0 liters aftermarket. The bellhousings have only had 2 versions, and those are even interchangeble with 1 minor mod. The OEM HP ranges from about 100HP to 305HP, and the aftermarket takes off from there.

There are 5 and 6 speed manual tranmissions available and 4, 5 and CVT automatics. (remember- down the road, as the 818 matures) For utmost bargin builds, the 5 speed manual and the 4 speed automatic can be found in OEM 2WD forms, bypassing the need for conversion kits.

The basic suspension design is unchanged from 1989-2007, leaving an exceptionally wide donor base.

If the OEM kuckles/hubs are repurposed to the 818 there are at least 5 front and 5 rear brake options from ultra light to overbuilt. All of them bolt-on interchangable. All of them MORE than adequate for an 1800 pound car.

The steering columns are all similiar, as are the seats. The dashboards all have the same basic structure and mounts. Folks have taken a 2006 STI dash and installed (with *some* fabricating) in a 1991 Legacy - That's pretty good given the year and tech difference.

While many car manufactures use common parts and design theories across model lines, you would be hard pressed to find one who did as much as Subaru did for as long a period of time. Volkwagen from the 50s to the 70s is the only one that springs to mind......

[Gollum]

Oh, its also a flat boxer engine with (at least) marginal cg advantages.

Not that I want to start an argument, and you two (oppen & phyrram) are bringing up great points that I agree with, but I'd love for someone to do some hard data on the CG of the subaru boxter engine, and figure out the height it sits at, relative to the ground, in a OEM WRX/STI or whatever you'd like.

Only reason I bring it up, is that though when you have the flat 4 on an engine stand you can see it has a very flat design which leaves very little material up high, when looking at the total package once installed it's probably one of the highest sitting crankshafts I've ever seen in a sports car.

My only point is that I've seen countless engine swaps in which mounts and engine placement were drawn up from scratch. I'm from the Z community and have seen everything from Jag 12's to american turbo 4 cylinders installed in them. Mounting height is as important as CG in a car. I can take a production L6 datsun engine which came in my Z, and by doing some basic engine bay work get the engine a full 3" back, and about 1" lower without worry about scraping the pan. Moving that roughly 400 pound mass makes a big difference (in the grand sceme of things, it's no magic bullet for handling).

That said I've seen lots of pictures of subie engines placed in other cars, sandrails, what have you, and their install height just seems to be really high. I know the intake still sits extremely low, so I'm not assuming that it's a BAD design. I just wonder how much CG gets overblown on the flat 4 engine. Obviously if you paired the motor with a smaller flywheel and a dry sump setup the motor could be dropped, but that's also a lot of money to spend on a few extra inches.

To get an idea of what I'm talking about, this pic kind of shows it.
3747

It's hard to see from the angle, but the crank shaft seems to be a little higher than the centerline of the wheel, which puts it at least 14+ inches off the ground, if not closer to around 16-18". Not exactly a low slung motor.

So that's my .02 cents. Again, I'm not saying the CG is probably "bad". I'd just like better data before claiming it's "oh so much better than other motors".

[Ks2]

well the subaru engine is available all over the world, from Europe to Africa all over, there isn't alot of places you can't find them and given the fact that they are like legoes you could potentially put most any Subaru 4cyclinder engine in there (with supporting parts of course) from the older legacies/imprezas to the newer STI's everyone knows about subaru since they race the things just about everywhere oh and i am sure someone will find a way to make the H6 work as well which means even more potential donors

in short the idea is to make a car they can sell anywhere in the world and that is more than just something with a big American V8 that only goes fast in a straight line and that people in europe and else where either don't want and/or cant find parts for.

[riptide motorsport]

I love these comversations...............I'm gaining a wealth of knowledge., thanks Steven

[Dave Smith]

Again, its difficult to get thru all the new information. Here is a status report of sorts on the project. First of all I love the alt engine discussion as this car is designed to be a capable platform for more than one application (powertrain). Today I am going to review the 818 concept 1/4 scale model that RISD (Rhode Island School of Design) is working on. It looks like we will have 5 (!) scale models to be unveiled to you guys at one time. This way you guys will have FINISHED sample cars to choose from that will be dimensioned, accurate, renditions of the body designs for the 818. The Chassis work is far ahead of the body shaping so that is is not being worked on much right now. The fuel tank was a big deal and Jim has moved that behind the seat rather than under it, effectively lowering the seast height a ton, which was a big concern.

So, the next major step will be selecting the body shape of the car (and the next 2 or 3 shapes to be made in sequence). As I said before, the good news is that these scale bodies are then immediately going to full size CNC milling and our master shaper John will begine making molds immediately. The big question is WHEN will we unveil the models... The RISD model should be about done, I know Jesper is bringing CAD printed 3-D wheels to them this afternoon to complete the car. Three other cars are being done concurrently and the last car is being shaped full size in our shaping bay and scanned and actually reduced to 1/4 scale model to keep comparos apples to apples. The absolute latest unveil would be SEMA, but I am hoping to do this much sooner. Still I think its vital that we show ALL the cars (models) at the same time so that we give everyone a chance to vote/evaluate the cars and discuss launch sequence of them.

I was very clear after the design competition ended that we would go to scale models next, and then full size cars after that as major nodes. I dont think it will be possible to have a full size car (as we did with the yellow GTM at SEMA 2003) at SEMA this year as the most important step HAS to be body selection an community involvement post design contest.

As has been reported, we will intro body shapes for THREE purposes...

1. A body shape for track guys
2. a fun exotic roadster that can be bought at $9,900 and completed at sub $15k, and
3. a high-mileage model that will lead in radical design but deliver upwards of 65 mpg (our mule GTM powered by the same technology and built by West Philly team is already above 70 mpg).

All told, three models on the same (or very similar) chassis and ready for launch shortly after designs are found that light peoples hair on fire.

I have asked Dave to start in earnest (even 1-5 posts a day) getting all 700+ submissions up on this site (faster if he gets help).

I will TRY and get some spy shots of the models out shortly (we are also doing a full-size test shape that I might show a peek at), but will only show the full line-up of contenders at the same time.

Still work to do on the name as you guys rocked the name competition... still the little 818 nomenclature is starting to grow on me (remember that if all three models go to production, we have three chances at names based on product design and configuration).

Dave

[PhyrraM]

Good news about the fuel tank! The height profile was one of my (very few) concerns. I'm guessing the H6 guys might not like the news, however.

Thanks for the report!

[Gollum]

Good news about the fuel tank! The height profile was one of my (very few) concerns. I'm guessing the H6 guys might not like the news, however.

Thanks for the report!

Actually I'd say that's GOOD news for the H6 guys. The fuel tank won't be in the cabin space, which means if you can solve the tank issue with a custom tank, reworking some of the chassis shouldn't be that bad! Anyone who wants a H6 should know they were going to be doing some major hacking anyways, so I'd say overall it's not as bad as it could have been.

[Oppenheimer]

Awesome update. Good news all around.

I am a little concerned though that the 700 designs going online for view around the same time the (now 5!) chosen scale models are unveiled. There is certain to be a bunch of ewww-ing and ahhhh-ing over many of the 700, and arguing over which are better than the contest winners, etc. I'd like to have been time for all that to settle down and become a memory before we see the 'Chosen 5'. If it overlaps, instead of just comparing the 700 club to the contest winners, we'll be comparing them to the Chosen 5 as well. That can only dilute the positve buzz the Chosen 5 will enjoy.

[Oppenheimer]

as for the name, I think 818 is everyones favorite, more than any of the actual text based names that were suggested. As was mentioned before, perhaps the 3 styles (Track, Street, MPG) can just be named with derivatives of 818. Like 818R, 818GT, etc.

[PhyrraM]

as for the name, I think 818 is everyones favorite, more than any of the actual text based names that were suggested. As was mentioned before, perhaps the 3 styles (Track, Street, MPG) can just be named with derivatives of 818. Like 818R, 818GT, etc.

No thanks. :p I still strongly prefer a real name. I've gone so far as to accept the "818" as part of a an actual name, but I have my limits...:cool: ;)

[bromikl]

No thanks. :p I still strongly prefer a real name. I've gone so far as to accept the "818" as part of a an actual name, but I have my limits...:cool: ;)

Of course, you can call it what you want. I still have a soft spot for Roxy. "She's an evil beyotch but I cant live without her ."

[Clutchman]

as for the name, I think 818 is everyones favorite, more than any of the actual text based names that were suggested. As was mentioned before, perhaps the 3 styles (Track, Street, MPG) can just be named with derivatives of 818. Like 818R, 818GT, etc.

I agree, 818 is by far my favorite. Giving a car a name is silly to me. One thing that always drove me nuts about most American cars. By the way, I am very pro-America so don't get me wrong. It is just one thing that always drove me crazy... Bonneville, Sunfire, Solstice, just very cheesy to me.

Clutchman

[NicksPapaw]

Dang Dave, you are just like a woman. Teasing us along. Unbuttoning just one button but not letting us touch. If I didn't think there would eventually be THE MOMENT when we got to see all, you would be thrown to the curb! :) Just messing with you. Thanks for the update. I can't wait to see the models. Glad everyone survived the hurricane.

[Silvertop]

as for the name, I think 818 is everyones favorite, more than any of the actual text based names that were suggested. As was mentioned before, perhaps the 3 styles (Track, Street, MPG) can just be named with derivatives of 818. Like 818R, 818GT, etc.

I'm with you. For some reason, I find a nice flow to that particular series of numbers, and the use of letter suffixes to denote the different submodels just makes sense to me. However, I could also live with PhyrraM's compromise idea -- as in 818Something -- 818 Stiletto, 818 Mongoose, 818 Sundevil, 818 Sabretooth, 818 Badger, you get the idea.......

[Clutchman]

I'm with you. For some reason, I find a nice flow to that particular series of numbers, and the use of letter suffixes to denote the different submodels just makes sense to me. However, I could also live with PhyrraM's compromise idea -- as in 818Something -- 818 Stiletto, 818 Mongoose, 818 Sundevil, 818 Sabretooth, 818 Badger, you get the idea.......

I would like to see:

808R (Track)
808GT (Street)
808H (MPG)

Clutchman

[crackedcornish]

Awesome update. Good news all around.

I am a little concerned though that the 700 designs going online for view around the same time the (now 5!) chosen scale models are unveiled. There is certain to be a bunch of ewww-ing and ahhhh-ing over many of the 700, and arguing over which are better than the contest winners, etc. I'd like to have been time for all that to settle down and become a memory before we see the 'Chosen 5'. If it overlaps, instead of just comparing the 700 club to the contest winners, we'll be comparing them to the Chosen 5 as well. That can only dilute the positve buzz the Chosen 5 will enjoy.


as for the name, I think 818 is everyones favorite, more than any of the actual text based names that were suggested. As was mentioned before, perhaps the 3 styles (Track, Street, MPG) can just be named with derivatives of 818. Like 818R, 818GT, etc.

I have to respectfully disagree with Oppenheimer, I dislike numbers as a name for a car. While numbers can be more informative if used correctly, they just aren't as expressive or in many cases memorable (I still have to google half of the cars that have number names just to know which car some people are talking about :o) as a well chosen name.

And as far as showing all 700+ designs taking anything away from the designs that were chosen...it's too late for that, there's already a good percentage of people here who are still wondering what parameters (or drugs ;)) the judges were given to have picked the overall winning design that they did.

I'm just happy that at least one of my favorites designs (thanks to Dave) did make it into that group chosen to make it at least to the modeling stage

[305mouse]

With BMW, I hate all the numbers. With this being one car, I like the numbers. I wouldn't mind something with 3 letters, like the GTM, obviously different series of letter though.

[kach22i]

Dang Dave, you are just like a woman. Teasing us along. Unbuttoning just one button but not letting us touch. If I didn't think there would eventually be THE MOMENT when we got to see all, you would be thrown to the curb! :) ..............

You just gave me an idea for a new name, the 818 Slit, only the insiders would get the joke.

Too brutal?

[Silvertop]

...............Too brutal?

Ever so slightly.

[Dave Smith]

I am just having the hardest time NOT showing some of the work, especially Jim's in-house concept which borrows some lines and cues from a few of the many submissions, yet is still all his own creation (did you forget he designed the GTM?). Jim's car will be #5 and the other 4 are from the design competition. So, we will have 5 scale models to look at and evaluate soon enough... I'll have mad dog post some spy shots of the RISD (Rhode Island School of Design) car which is the 3rd place winner from Xabier, that model will be in-house and getting painted next week. By next Tuesday we should have two of the five models in-house and complete, with the others close behind.

[PhyrraM]

Crap, I just posted in the other thread that I was hoping Scott Bradfords's was the #5. :o

Looking forward to the models. I'm sure we are all in for another few rounds of 'Forum Wars' trying to decide, recommend, convince, demand to FFR which should be first. :p

[Inthenameofweez]

\/ exciting!!!!

[Mad Dog]

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/images/sneak1.jpg
One button at a time... The full painted and detailed car will be completed next week but revealed with all 5 models at once.

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/images/sneak2.jpg
The crew at RISD has been working hard to bring contest winner (3rd place over-all) Xabier's work to life in accurate 1/4 scale.

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/images/sneak3.jpg
Jim has been the design cheif on every aspect of the 818 project and has overseen both chassis development as well as each model making, scanning, and prep for public unveils. These photos give him permanent eye twitches.

[mattster03]

looks amazing!

[riptide motorsport]

Looks great!

[kach22i]

Slightly cab forward, not sure how they pulled that one off. Maybe the windshield is raked more than I expected.

I'm sure those wheels will get tucked back in under the wheel flares, right now I dig the hot rod look.

There is a slight stocky boxer-like stance forming from the short front hood, this could be nice, very nice.

[D2W]

The edges of Xabier's design are a lot sharper than I thought from looking at the renderings. Still a good looking design, can't wait to see it all.
The rear doesn't appear to have any sort of spoiler or ducktail like Xabier's track version did, too bad:(

[thebeerbaron]

Dave, I think I missed who is creating all these models. I know RISD is doing a clay rendering of the Xabier entry. There is one full-size model being done at Factory Five (I assume Jim's design). There was some talk of having either SolidWorks or HP do some 3D printing (I think that's right?).

Where are the other three models coming from?

How is the full-size model being made?

[kach22i]

The edges of Xabier's design are a lot sharper than I thought from looking at the renderings.
I see what you mean.

Click link:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=160&attachmentid=3792

[Inthenameofweez]

I also noticed that the headlights are a bit "off". If still planning to use the headlights from a 06-07 Impreza, the lines incorporated in the headlight will not be possible. However, I REALLY enjoy the door and vents.

I'm wondering, IF this is the design chosen, if we will see a different body for the race version (wider front and rear fenders) with a more emphasized and exaggerated venting front and rear. Since we're looking at a regular street version, the track version will still have the options of a wing along with the short windshield. It appears that with this body, a removable hardtop might be a possibility....

[crackedcornish]

The edges of Xabier's design are a lot sharper than I thought from looking at the renderings. Still a good looking design, can't wait to see it all.
The rear doesn't appear to have any sort of spoiler or ducktail like Xabier's track version did, too bad:(

maybe they didn't get all the views we did??
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/cars/5c1f840c.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/cars/cf55d279.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/cars/405855e9.jpg

[mattster03]

I also noticed that the headlights are a bit "off". If still planning to use the headlights from a 06-07 Impreza, the lines incorporated in the headlight will not be possible. However, I REALLY enjoy the door and vents.

I'm wondering, IF this is the design chosen, if we will see a different body for the race version (wider front and rear fenders) with a more emphasized and exaggerated venting front and rear. Since we're looking at a regular street version, the track version will still have the options of a wing along with the short windshield. It appears that with this body, a removable hardtop might be a possibility....

The 06-07 Impreza lights may not fit as well as the "Xabier" entry makes them look. The front end of the Impreza is much more flat compared to the agressively sloped front end of the this proposed 818 design causing it to be very difficult to encorporate the housings without rendering them totally useless. Factory Five has good experience with designing headlamps (see the GTM) and I would guess that incorporating the Impreza lights won't make it to the final design. Plus it would not be a true 'one donor' concept using a 02-07 WRX if only 2 years of which have the correct head lamps.

[Inthenameofweez]

Agreed with the 'one donor' concept. However, all models of Impreza used these headlights. Not just the WRX. There are many 06-07 headlight son the market in many forms. Besides, what are the other options? Just as you've said, a FFR designed and produced headlight. Which is a perfectly acceptable possibility. I just hope there is a way to continue using Subaru ones. The front of the Impreza is a lot more flat than this car, but maybe a slightly recessed headlight would not affect the overall body lines. I just love the idea. If there is no possibility of HID projector headlights such as the Impreza (think xenon from BMW or S2000) I will be a bit upset. These headlight give me the chills.

[NicksPapaw]

Ahhhhhhhh Dave! Master of the timeless art of seduction. Slowly revealing one button at a time. BTW..... 818 Slit..... Good insider joke but I'll be damned if I'm putting that badge on the nose of this car. Now, the 818 Seductress might be a go for me. :o

[Dave Smith]

The rear is not done, but will be very close to Xabiers as this model is dimensionally correct and manufacturable. There were some eccentricities in Xabiers design that were impossible to make, but that's why the drawing-to-reality is so hard. Still, amazingly close. Race version may be later as this is the street model. To answer your question about the other models, while this one is being done in clay by RISD, The FFR car and the other three entry cars are being done by 3d printing from Solidworks drawings already to go to either 1/4 scale (cheaper) or full scale mill. I didnt want to show too much here guys since the car isnt painted and I want to give all 5 designs an equal presentation and chance for eval. As far as posting the other 700+ designs concurrently, that is just an unfortunate accident of resources and timing... We'll suffer the arguments of the cars we should have done but when you guys see the cars we have narrowed it down to it might be better than you imagined it would be.

[crackedcornish]

The rear is not done, but will be very close to Xabiers as this model is dimensionally correct and manufacturable. There were some eccentricities in Xabiers design that were impossible to make, but that's why the drawing-to-reality is so hard. Still, amazingly close. Race version may be later as this is the street model. To answer your question about the other models, while this one is being done in clay by RISD, The FFR car and the other three entry cars are being done by 3d printing from Solidworks drawings already to go to either 1/4 scale (cheaper) or full scale mill. I didnt want to show too much here guys since the car isnt painted and I want to give all 5 designs an equal presentation and chance for eval. As far as posting the other 700+ designs concurrently, that is just an unfortunate accident of resources and timing... We'll suffer the arguments of the cars we should have done but when you guys see the cars we have narrowed it down to it might be better than you imagined it would be.

Dave, are all the models going to be painted the same color to keep things even during the evaluations?

[LiquidPT]

I would like to see:

808R (Track)
808GT (Street)
808H (MPG)

Clutchman

H usually means Hybrid...

[blueafro]

I am just having the hardest time NOT showing some of the work, especially Jim's in-house concept which borrows some lines and cues from a few of the many submissions, yet is still all his own creation (did you forget he designed the GTM?).

Just curious, but did Jim work for VBM back in the 90s?

[D2W]

Just curious, but did Jim work for VBM back in the 90s?

That made me laugh:) I was going to say something similiar but didn't. Nobody from FFR has ever (as far as I know), admitted anything about the GTM not being a FFR original design. I work in the design and manufacturing world and I know reverse engineering happens all the time. I've done it, and people have done it to me. But when you can't admit it that makes you a flake.

I think it was Michael Lye who said that the headlights in Xabier's design had been cheated and the only way a stock headlight would work is if the design of the front was changed a lot.

Micheal Lye quote: "In Xabier's renderings it's interesting to look closely at what he did with the headlights. The front 3/4 view shows them most clearly and if you look carefully you can see they're actual photographs of the Subie lights. However, in the process of photoshopping them into his renderings, he's distorted the lights in subtle but important ways. For example, if you compare the slope of the front of the light the actual part is much more vertical than what's seen in the renderings. This is clearer in the side views than the front 3/4 view. So although the lights look like Subie lights, those lights won't look the same and may not work well. So we can't reuse those lights from the donor without significant changes to the front."

[mattster03]

I think it was Michael Lye who said that the headlights in Xabier's design had been cheated and the only way a stock headlight would work is if the design of the front was changed a lot.

Micheal Lye quote: "In Xabier's renderings it's interesting to look closely at what he did with the headlights. The front 3/4 view shows them most clearly and if you look carefully you can see they're actual photographs of the Subie lights. However, in the process of photoshopping them into his renderings, he's distorted the lights in subtle but important ways. For example, if you compare the slope of the front of the light the actual part is much more vertical than what's seen in the renderings. This is clearer in the side views than the front 3/4 view. So although the lights look like Subie lights, those lights won't look the same and may not work well. So we can't reuse those lights from the donor without significant changes to the front."

Agreed. Though I don't know if 'cheated' is a good word... the challenge was to design a car concept not to work out every last detail down to the headlights. I can about guarentee that OEM subaru headlamps will not be used... that would be more difficult than most would imagine. The headlights on that model are more than likely just "placeholders" for now. Id also say that there will be all sorts of subtle changes from the concepts before the final design comes out. The good news is that hopefully we will all be able to give input on these changes! I remember when the GTM was originally released, everyone commented that the rear needed to be changed and sure enough, the design was 'saved' (it really was pretty ugly at first) before the final production.

[Flamshackle]

wow I love it! cant wait to see more! thanks dave for being a sport and throwing the dogs some bones :D

[Benji]

Erm, if you look at the front 3/4 of Xabier's drawings you'll also note that they DON'T follow the line of the 'hood'/bonnet/whatever you want to call it, they actually slope less because he was accounting for the fact they were more 'vertical' than the bonnet shape.

Your clay model seems to have them flush with the curve of the bonnet, your design won't work, his should or should be close enough in my opinion.

I'm linking this image because it is LARGE:

http://img.netcarshow.com/Subaru-Impreza_WRC_Prototype_2006_1600x1200_wallpaper_09. jpg

[kach22i]

Just curious, but did Jim work for VBM back in the 90s?
Holy cow.

http://dreamscar.pagesperso-orange.fr/VBM.htm

Translate the story:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://gtfrance.free.fr/historique_vbm.html&ei=niJgTpaGDK_LsQKFuWg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDgQ7gEwBA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DVBM%2B4000%2BOrl%25C3%25A9ans%26hl%3D en%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D678%26prmd%3Divns

[05xtsy]

I haven't been back here in a while. But it seems as though a lot has changed, and although I have read through almost everything, I have no idea what is happening. Could someone explain what is happening with the car in a couple of sentences, just the basics.

[Ks2]

xabiers design is currently bieng made into a scale model, more details to come at SEMA this year

[GUNS]

Dave, the model is looking great! I can't wait to see the track version. You have been very open about the pricing of the roadster, any rough estimates on the difference in cost for the track version? I'm sure you have a lot of details to work out, but if you could throw down a ballpark figure at all that'd be great. Thanks and I can't wait for updates!

[mekeys]

I cant see enough to tell much about it.(Xabier's model).

[Oppenheimer]

Does Xabier know about the latest updates? I'm sure he'd get a kick out of seeing his work come to life. We should fly the kid out here to sign his work. Dave can imbed his signature into a discreet location on the mold, so every car carries his mark.

[PhyrraM]

He saw, and posted on, the Facebook post that contains the pics of the model.

[Oppenheimer]

I haven't been back here in a while. But it seems as though a lot has changed, and although I have read through almost everything, I have no idea what is happening. Could someone explain what is happening with the car in a couple of sentences, just the basics.

5 designs are being rendered into 1/4 scale, as either clay or 3D printing. One is being done full scale. All 5 will be revealed at once, so we can all weigh in. The Chosen 5 are made up of the 3 design winners, plus a Jim Schenk design, plus one other I can't think of now (long day).

The plan is there will be 3 cars put into production. A Street (roadster), a Track, and a HF (high MPG Coupe). The Roadster will likely be first to market. It may eventually have a removable top. Which of the Chosen 5 will make up these 3 is unclear (though it appears Dave may have let it slip that the leaked Xabier photos are earmarked for the Street Roadster, YEAH!)

All 3 will all use mostly the same chassis components, with the track getting better coilovers and brakes. The MPG will use a West Philly High Green Grand Prix winning version of the VW TDI. But it seems you'll be able to mix and match a lot of this stuff for your build (use the track chassis, but the HF motor, with the street body, etc). Dave calls this Swatch-Watch.

The big reveal of the Chosen 5 will be before or worst case by SEMA, but hopefully sooner. Meanwhile we get to drool over the leaked shots of the Xabier 1/4 scale in this thread.

The 700 Club of design contest submissions are being posted so we can all complaign more about the judges picks and which ones are the 5 they should have chosen, and argue more amongst ourselves and leave Dave and Jim alone for a while. But that effort is going to take time to post all 700 and is ongoing. See another post for a link to the 700 Club.

Meanwhile there is no letup in discussions about the ideal engine and trans mods for this yet to be car. The gas tank is no longer under seat, it will be behind driver ala '33 Street Rod. There is still no name chosen for this car, 818 continues to be used as a surrogate, and many think its a good permament name (though not, I learned, as many as I thought).

[xabier]

Yes, I have been following every update on the forums, although I have not written anything, believe me I have been following every new update and discussion on this thread. I have to say I am very excited and grateful to see my design evolve this way, the spy shots do not let us see the whole model, mostly because the rear is not finished yet but I have to say that from what I can see, the part that is most accurate to my idea are the sides, the front I know it needed to be changed in some ways to make it real because when taking something from a 2D image to a 3D model many things don´t match as well as expected, but it still looks great!

I want to thank Dave, the team at RISD, Jim and all the people who is taking part on it, including the enthusiast community on this forum

Hope to see more updates soon, this project is really interesting!

[16g-95gsx]

Exciting stuff :)

[Silvertop]

............The plan is there will be 3 cars put into production. A Street (roadster), a Track, and a HF (high MPG Coupe). The Roadster will likely be first to market. It may eventually have a removable top. Which of the Chosen 5 will make up these 3 is unclear (though it appears Dave may have let it slip that the leaked Xabier photos are earmarked for the Street Roadster, YEAH!)............

To me, the biggest single (and most encouraging) revelation out of yesterday's series of posts IS the fact that the spy shots are of a STREET version of Xabier's design rather than a track version. I had been under the impression that this design was being targeted first as a track model, with a street version hanging in the breeze as a tantalizing maybe..... But it now appears that it is being prepared initially as one of the street versions. And that is just TOO exciting!

Without seeing all five choices, I can't say with absolute certainty that this will be the 818 model that I will build (and it is still not 100% certain that this body will actually be produced), but it does seem likely that there will at least one design that will scream at me. I have heavily favored the Xabier design from the get-go, and the spy shots do nothing to change that. It's looks great -- at least what we can see of it. I can't wait to see the rest of the car -- along with the other four models. The real problem may turn out to be choosing.

Time to start shopping in earnest for that donor car! Excited!!!!!!

[Dave Smith]

The decision to go with Xabiers street version was a function of interest and sales (my personal choice was to go with the track car and it should give you guys reassurance that collaboration and open-mindedness are guiding the project rather than directive). about the GTM, all Designs borrow heavily from current designs and the GTM borrowed heavily from the greatest GT car of all time, the GT40. (the VBM is a GT40 as much as our GTM is a GT40). Conventional lines and real-estate management dictates alot, that's why with these design submissions (alot of them) seem to evolve towards resolutions akin to a lotus or the k1 attack... It's just simple form, function, and available space, and facts like people havent changed radically in size, mid-engine placement and wheel-base/track only leaves so much metal/glass/shape to be stretched. As far as the GTM and the VBM, of course there was a heavy design influence, but it was the GT40 that we started with for inspiration... along with the Saleen and Mosler (Mosler was heavily Chevy LS running gear).

When we started the GTM project I bought a GT40 for benchmarking since after the ****** lawsuit we were free to pursue body shapes (free from tradedress actions) and the GT40 was the next logical car in our vintage line-up (C-car, Daytona, then GT40). The GTM windshield is STILL a GT40 windshield (not many people know that)! The VBM is a modified GT40 shape and I liked the way they resolved SOME of the issues with downforce and those cues came from me, NOT Jim and I think he still resents me for it (Ha!). I hated the rear end. Jim had more license with the Gen 2 car but to say Jim's design is not his because of fiberglass changes to the GT40 ignores the entire chassis, interior, suspension, ride height, windows side and rear, and a million other things that constitute a design. Plus we did shape the thing out of foam by hand because surface scanning and computer body shape design were still not perfected (or usable to us) in 2002-3. Still, compare a Ferrari GTO with a Daytona Coupe body (Ive had them side by side and it is clear that some folks would say Pete Brock "ripped off" the GTO body), Obviously Pete Brock was STRONGLY influenced by the Ferrari, but the Daytona is a different car. The most exciting part of the 818 project is the many paths towards developing a ROCK star body that will make people say "I HAVE to have this car". We will have 5 cars to vote/discuss/argue over shortly! How cool is that?

[Dave Smith]

Did anyone survey the question do you say "eight-one-eight" or "eight eighteen" . I say eight eighteen btw.

[05xtsy]

5 designs are being rendered into 1/4 scale, as either clay or 3D printing. One is being done full scale. All 5 will be revealed at once, so we can all weigh in. The Chosen 5 are made up of the 3 design winners, plus a Jim Schenk design, plus one other I can't think of now (long day).

The plan is there will be 3 cars put into production. A Street (roadster), a Track, and a HF (high MPG Coupe). The Roadster will likely be first to market. It may eventually have a removable top. Which of the Chosen 5 will make up these 3 is unclear (though it appears Dave may have let it slip that the leaked Xabier photos are earmarked for the Street Roadster, YEAH!)

All 3 will all use mostly the same chassis components, with the track getting better coilovers and brakes. The MPG will use a West Philly High Green Grand Prix winning version of the VW TDI. But it seems you'll be able to mix and match a lot of this stuff for your build (use the track chassis, but the HF motor, with the street body, etc). Dave calls this Swatch-Watch.

The big reveal of the Chosen 5 will be before or worst case by SEMA, but hopefully sooner. Meanwhile we get to drool over the leaked shots of the Xabier 1/4 scale in this thread.

The 700 Club of design contest submissions are being posted so we can all complaign more about the judges picks and which ones are the 5 they should have chosen, and argue more amongst ourselves and leave Dave and Jim alone for a while. But that effort is going to take time to post all 700 and is ongoing. See another post for a link to the 700 Club.

Meanwhile there is no letup in discussions about the ideal engine and trans mods for this yet to be car. The gas tank is no longer under seat, it will be behind driver ala '33 Street Rod. There is still no name chosen for this car, 818 continues to be used as a surrogate, and many think its a good permament name (though not, I learned, as many as I thought).


Thanks

[BrandonDrums]

Did anyone survey the question do you say "eight-one-eight" or "eight eighteen" . I say eight eighteen btw.

I could start a poll haha. I say "Eight One Eight" but just as frequently I say "The car I'm going to build one day"

One in the same to me, I WILL have this car.

[Silvertop]

.......... The most exciting part of the 818 project is the many paths towards developing a ROCK star body that will make people say "I HAVE to have this car". We will have 5 cars to vote/discuss/argue over shortly! How cool is that?

I do, in fact, HAVE to have this car!

And the fact that we will soon have 5 cars to discuss / argue over is way BEYOND cool. It's just amazing.

There has been no poll as of yet, though there has been a lot of forum chatter about the pronunciation. I also say eight-eighteen, though there are lots of folks saying eight-one-eight. They are, of course, wrong.:D

[kach22i]

(the VBM is a GT40 as much as our GTM is a GT40).
I can agree with that. The major evolution of the rear and minor changes to the front does make the GTM it's own design.

[stephen]

amazing progress - I love and commend the openness of this whole process - it is like a breath of fresh air

perhaps the poll could not only ask the pronunciation question - i say 8-1-8 but also do people prefer 818 or a name or a 818+ name.

Personally i hate 818 - i think because once in my younger life we all got bmw's as company cars and all my mates who had been there longer got 325's and me being a 'newbie' was only allowed a ... yup -a 318 - so may be I am tainted ? :(

Stephen

[Ks2]

i could live with either pronunciation. the idea of xabiers body design, a 280hp engine with near 9k rev limit and twin scroll turbo... sounds like a winner to me

[Inthenameofweez]

Any ideas on how voting will be handled once all 5 bodies are decided? I certainly hope voting will not take place at SEMA for all attendants to partake in...

I would like the voting to take place on a separate website hosted specifically for voting. Only those who are linked the website through e-mail or a friend link.
I say this for 2 reasons, I think the voting website should be completely separate from all previous discussions on whose car looked the best. What design challenged what aspect of the build. Why this was better than that. I think the voting should include only the following information: Here's our design pitch (details of the chassis). If in fact we are voting for 3 bodies for 3 different cars, this should be expanded upon at the time of voting. For example, my vote is for the 818-R that Xabier designed to be applied to the stripped down race prepped track machine. I also like his hard top adapted street going sports car. I may, however prefer another body for the super high MPG week day grocery getter/daily driver.

That being said, I'm okay with the public being allowed to vote, as not all those interested in this car are enthusiastic enough to be on this forum; along with the SEMA show being a difficult show for some to attend. I am 99% excited to see these cars and 1% excited to enjoy the things that Las Vegas has to offer outside of SEMA. I almost have no care in the world to see anything else. So maybe I'm biased.

I say all that to say this: Please don't let the pretenders be the ones to decide what body goes on this amazing chassis. Oh, and please make the 818-R. Please. :)

[StatGSR]

a 280hp engine with near 9k rev limit and twin scroll turbo... sounds like a winner to me

thinking JDM swap i take it?

[Oppenheimer]

Did anyone survey the question do you say "eight-one-eight" or "eight eighteen" . I say eight eighteen btw.

Trying to divert our attention and get us arguing about something else? My answer to the pronunciation issue is to simply say "I've heard it both ways". We should get T-shirts that say:

FFR 818
I've heard it both ways

[Oppenheimer]

The decision to go with Xabiers street version was a function of interest and sales (my personal choice was to go with the track car...

The Xabier track car is so close to the street version, it should be easy enough to do both. Its a wing and a shortened windscreen, plus more cage. I would think it possible to offer the wing, windshield, and cage bits as options (mix and match). that could potentially allow for two different track options (whatever you're official track version is, plus the Xabier optioned as track).

If the official 818 Track version ends up including a modified cage, then the Xabier track option ends up as just a windshield and wing option to that chassis.

[Oppenheimer]

...the SEMA show being a difficult show for some to attend...

SEMA is closed to the public. So its more than difficult. I agree with most of your position on the voting, but I think your concerns can be accomodated on the FFR site. Just don't put the poll in this forum to get mixed in with all these other posts.

I will add a caution about opening up to the wider audience of the public at large. Most of the people on here are target audience for FFR. Not all will be able to build an 818 right away, but most everyone here will the second they have the resources to accomplish it. These are the people that FFR needs to hear from about which design they like the best, which design they will stand in line to pay $ for.

The public at large will have valuable feedback too, but for a different use. IMO that feedback should be segregated from the opinions of the target market.

[Inthenameofweez]

The Xabier track car is so close to the street version, it should be easy enough to do both. Its a wing and a shortened windscreen, plus more cage. I would think it possible to offer the wing, windshield, and cage bits as options (mix and match). that could potentially allow for two different track options (whatever you're official track version is, plus the Xabier optioned as track).

If the official 818 Track version ends up including a modified cage, then the Xabier track option ends up as just a windshield and wing option to that chassis.

<3

You win 1 internetz.

[blueafro]

The VBM is a modified GT40 shape and I liked the way they resolved SOME of the issues with downforce and those cues came from me, NOT Jim and I think he still resents me for it (Ha!). I hated the rear end. Jim had more license with the Gen 2 car but to say Jim's design is not his because of fiberglass changes to the GT40 ignores the entire chassis, interior, suspension, ride height, windows side and rear, and a million other things that constitute a design. Plus we did shape the thing out of foam by hand because surface scanning and computer body shape design were still not perfected (or usable to us) in 2002-3.

Dave, thanks for the details. I was always curious about that. BTW, my question wasn't intended to call anyone out, it was genuine curiosity since I didn't know Jim's background and it seemed possible he might have done design work elsewhere. Aside from the Smith brothers, I didn't know the names - much less the backgrounds - of anyone at Factory Five until well after the GTM debuted.

[BipDBo]

As one of the few who is not a fan of the Xabier design, I suspect that the decision to persue his street version and not his track version is one of function rather than form. Xabier's design would make a horrible track version because of its aerodynamics. It has a huge "mouth" stretching from one side of the car to the other. In my opinion, this large mouth doesn't make it resemble the lovely Julia Roberts, but instead likens it to a catfish. More importantly, it is a drag chute. Also, the high hood, which is unneeded because the engine is in the back, will probably create uplift on the front wheels.

[BrandonDrums]

I didn't even comment on the voting thing! WOW!

THIS is how crowd involvement should be. Did I ever mention that the Smyth project was unsubscribed..by me..because I was tired of seeing 12 posts on my facebook news reel of random VW rusty parts everyday.

Here, we might not get as much interaction with the team but at least we feel it's because we're dealing with professionals. Some of the stuff with the go fast go green project seems like tricks for the 24 hours of lemons, not an actual roadgoing car.

I just want my xabier based targa-top in red please! But any of the top 5 winners of the original design contest would look great.

[ScottKoschwitz]

I'm happy to see Xabier's design in clay, as it was one of my favorites. I can't wait to see it (Dave, don't forgot my suggestion of the 818 open house :) ).

I think polling on the bodies should be open to the groupies on this forum and also Grassroots Motorsports readers and subscribers, since GRM was also part of the design competition.

Hmmmm, as for what to build. I love the idea of the TDI, having owned one for ten years (and still miss it). I think in the 818 body, you would have a very quick, nimble, and incredibly efficient car. On the other hand, I am looking for a Lotus Elise substitute, so I might want a high-rev screamer (though I have to admit that I don't know whether Subaru engines scream to 8,000 RPM or are useless above 5,000).

Whichever engine, I would be interested in the R version, assuming it would have an SCCA-legal cage and would be street legal. I think it would be fun to drive it on the street for a couple of seasons, and then race it. A TDI-powered car in the ITE class might place well in a 12-hour endurance race.

[Ks2]

scott the engine you need is the JDM ej207 version 7 or 8. 7 has all forged internals and the 8 has cast? and a twinscroll turbo stock, they come from the Japanese STI's 02-03, when you import one, most wont have a complete wiring harness, but thats ok if your donor is (in particular) an 02-03 USDM WRX (i cannot comment on other years wiring compatibility) the additions and changes to the harness for the OCV valves are easy like 10 or so wires need added and some others need switched in the plugs in the engine bay and at the ECU the wiring upgrades can be had from IAperformance.com (or you can make them yourself)

i run a version 7 in my daily driver WRX and having driven the 2.5l STI's i prefer the JDM hands down to the new USDM STI's i cannot comment of the 6 speed in these as i have the 5 speed WRX transmission what differences the JDM 6 speed and the US 6 speed will have to be answered by someone else

hope that helps

EDIT fixed so that my previous post is not in this post...

[PhyrraM]

I highly doubt you will see any officially sanctioned vote to determine the first/second/third.etc design. You will see many forum polls from the members, but if FFR starts one, it will clearly have disclaimers attatched.

What will happen is that FFR will take as much feedback as they can read/stand (because there is no way they will be able to read it all), and temper that with internal ideas and concerns, and roll that with a healthly dose of what makes the bottom line blacker. Then FFR will make the final call on what, and how the bodies are rolled out.

[Dave Smith]

Of course in the end, Ive always said it will be Jim's call since that is his job and sooner or later a decision HAS to be made. As far as the Smyth thing, that has nothing to do with FFR and I would never do it that way for obvious reasons. The community question is a good one because I and the crew here dont really believe in the general public. This is the FFR community and the guys at Grassroots Motorsports were a valued addition as they brought racing and build-it hands on feedback to the community... so I guess we'll unveil the models here and at FFR in person.

Another thing, I enjoy business chess and with every project there are related longer term goals and related projects. The Mk4 body molds and gel coat work were needed for the Mk4, but also central to our prep for being able to do tight tolerance molds for say 1/4 panels that will be needed on the 818 project. The running gear and the work with the X-prize finalist and Green Grand Prix winning tdi powered GTM set the team and powertrain possibility for a build-it-yourself commuter. More models and the desire for multiple purposes on the 818 chassis is central to the profitability of the platform.

[Silvertop]

I highly doubt you will see any officially sanctioned vote to determine the first/second/third.etc design. You will see many forum polls from the members, but if FFR starts one, it will clearly have disclaimers attatched.

What will happen is that FFR will take as much feedback as they can read/stand (because there is no way they will be able to read it all), and temper that with internal ideas and concerns, and roll that with a healthly dose of what makes the bottom line blacker. Then FFR will make the final call on what, and how the bodies are rolled out.

I think you nailed that exactly.

[unclebigbad]

I say 8-1-8.

[Michael Lye]

I've just gotten a chance to catch up now that the power is back on here where I live in RI.
The edges of Xabier's design are a lot sharper than I thought from looking at the renderings. Still a good looking design, can't wait to see it all. These photos show the model in an unfinished state and the sharp edges are a result of that. They will be rounded down somewhat - it's just better to do that towards the end rather earlier. It's easier to take material away than it is to add it back.


The rear doesn't appear to have any sort of spoiler or ducktail like Xabier's track version did, too bad:( As Dave mentioned the rear is not done (in the photo) and does have the ducktail spoiler as in the renderings. It's there but doesn't show in the photos.

[Michael Lye]

Agreed. Though I don't know if 'cheated' is a good word... the challenge was to design a car concept not to work out every last detail down to the headlights. I can about guarentee that OEM subaru headlamps will not be used... that would be more difficult than most would imagine. I think you're right that "cheated" wasn't the best choice of words. I did NOT mean that in the sense that Xabier had some how cheated during the competition. I really just meant that he had made the OEM lights "work" in his renderings in a way that gave a clear impression of how he wanted the front end to look. I agree that the challenge wasn't to work out every last detail but to come up with a great concept - which Xabier did, as is clear from the responses on this forum.


The headlights on that model are more than likely just "placeholders" for now. Basically, you're correct. They are rough ideas of how the lights could be shaped and configured to work with the front end. Right now though they're just tape and can be adjusted, removed, redone as needed. I think you're also right that the OEM lights won't likely be used. Just too different from what is needed there.

[Michael Lye]

Erm, if you look at the front 3/4 of Xabier's drawings you'll also note that they DON'T follow the line of the 'hood'/bonnet/whatever you want to call it, they actually slope less because he was accounting for the fact they were more 'vertical' than the bonnet shape.

Your clay model seems to have them flush with the curve of the bonnet, your design won't work, his should or should be close enough in my opinion.
The front 3/4 rendering does show the lights somewhat more vertical than the surrounding bodywork and there's a small recess at the forward lower edge that emphasizes that. However I've held the OEM light next to the images and the model and can confirm that ot would be very difficult to make them work without major changes to the front end. The clay model has tape headlights in the photo to show the potential for placement and shape but not any of the details of the lights. These headlights would be conceptually similar to the GTM lights and if desired, could be flush mounted and work quite well. But they are by no means the final say on lights.

[Dave Smith]

I am really honored by having Michael and his team do this car that is really the favorite of the FFForum crowd to date. How fortunate we are to bring World Class talent to bear on this project from the crew at RISD, to the talented team of designers and software experts at Solidworks, to the design judges and community submissions, and others to complement our seasoned team... I think you guys will be slack-jawed at the RISD work as well as the other models. The fun thing for me is that the longest part of the project (body shaping) will, after the selection/(s), go super fast as these go to full scale in mere weeks from CAD and surface scanning. We are in the golden age of cars where so much is possible and its only up to us to imagine it as the tools are seemingly doubling in power every year!

Thanks Michael for the great addition to the project!

[Cooluser23]

What's the
Smyth project if you don't mind me asking? I'm not familiar with it.

[Cooluser23]

Dave, could you invite the
experts at Solidworks to do a Q/A thread like Michael Lye?
I'm very curious of what Solidworks is capable these days and how it helps shape projects such as the 818. I'm sure I'm not alone in this, and Solidworks would appreciate the chance to showcase their product(s).

[D2W]

I think you're right that "cheated" wasn't the best choice of words. I did NOT mean that in the sense that Xabier had some how cheated during the competition. I really just meant that he had made the OEM lights "work" in his renderings in a way that gave a clear impression of how he wanted the front end to look. I agree that the challenge wasn't to work out every last detail but to come up with a great concept - which Xabier did, as is clear from the responses on this forum.

Michael I apologize if anyone thinks I was quoting you when I said "xabier cheated the subi lights on his model". that was my statement alone and I only meant he didn't use the exact shape of the light on his model. Maybe cheated was the wrong word and I apologize to Xabier too if anyone thought I meant anything else.

P.S. Michael good news on the designs aspects I commented on not being done yet. I can't wait to see the finished model:)

[D2W]

What's the project if you don't mind me asking? I'm not familiar with it.

Search Smyth performance on facebook. In a nutshell Mark Smith is doing a project of his own seperate from ffr, cutting down a Jetta and making it mid engine. Interesting but totally different from what Dave and FFR are doing.

[D2W]

I second the idea of doing a Q & A with solidworks. I have a few questions already.

[kach22i]

I say we might be able to advance the driver's seating position 3" to 4" max.

I'd like to correct myself, based on the Lotus Eagle drawing I found on the Internet (think this was code name for the Evora), seating position may be able to be moved up a full 6 inches. That's my best guess, and it may not seem like a lot, but to someone designer mindset, it may make your day. This means lots of room behind the seat for a gas tank (as already announced). And it may even account for X's clay car looking cab-forward to me, but that is just a guess.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/LOTUS-EAGLE-VS-FFR-TEMPLATE.jpg

I've sat in the Evora, and it far easier to get into (and out of) than the Elise, and feels pretty roomy to a short guy like me (5'-5").

As a side note, the 2015 Boxster is reported to be a more cab-forward design, longer and perhaps wider. I mention this, because the FFR template fit the current Boxster, and a used Boxster might be an FFR comparable. Here is a link to a collection of articles on that subject.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/627678-2015-boxster-rumors.html

[bromikl]

This may be a silly question, but how far forward could the driver go? If ingress/egress weren't an issue, could he sit between the front wheels? Knees over the steering rack? How much of that space is taken by the suspension? The engine is usually between the front wheels, but not in the 818. I'm sure it won't be wasted space (storage) but just out of curiosity what's the extreme limit? And is that limit different for the X-Bow (w/ unique suspension?)

[crackedcornish]

This may be a silly question, but how far forward could the driver go? If ingress/egress weren't an issue, could he sit between the front wheels? Knees over the steering rack? How much of that space is taken by the suspension? The engine is usually between the front wheels, but not in the 818. I'm sure it won't be wasted space (storage) but just out of curiosity what's the extreme limit? And is that limit different for the X-Bow (w/ unique suspension?)

to sit between the front wheels you would have to make it a single seat that was centered in the vehicle...but you can sit above the wheels like in this Jeep FC....
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/63/Jeep_FC-160_CowlAndChassis.jpg

[kach22i]

These were originally posted in the forum by someone else, I forget who. Your guess is as good as mine regarding how far forward the seating position can go, mark it up and see if it flies.
39483947

I have a magazine I scanned a while back, the Stratos concept car is the "two in between" the wheels car of all time.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/#!cpZZ2QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/stratos1.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Automobile/stratos2.jpg

[ddorrer]

A TDI powered 818 sounds interesting!! Plenty of torque, great MPG. Mmm...very interesting.

[bobzdar]

I think the practical limit is aroumd the front wheel centerline, beyond that and you lose your legs in any kind of frontal impact.

[16g-95gsx]

A TDI powered 818 sounds interesting!! Plenty of torque, great MPG. Mmm...very interesting.

In all honesty I fully expect even a standard track 818 to get phenomenal gas mileage. I could easily see 40+mpg highway if the car isn't pushed, which is amazing considering what the car would be capable of doing. A TDI powered model would be that much better. At 1800lbs you open yourself up to a LOT of possibilities.

[kach22i]

In all honesty I fully expect even a standard track 818 to get phenomenal gas mileage. I could easily see 40+mpg highway if the car isn't pushed, which is amazing considering what the car would be capable of doing. A TDI powered model would be that much better. At 1800lbs you open yourself up to a LOT of possibilities.
I agree in a general way.

Please keep in mind that on a highway when the mass is already in motion, aerodynamics has a greater importance over weight. There is only one of the five designs (first place winner as a fastback coupe) that I know of which comes close to being a kamm-back design.

[kach22i]

I think the practical limit is aroumd the front wheel centerline, beyond that and you lose your legs in any kind of frontal impact.
A guy in one of the other forums I post in has a one-legged friend. His friend lost his leg in a VW van accident, Ralph Nader was right about a few things (not all).

[armstrom]

In all honesty I fully expect even a standard track 818 to get phenomenal gas mileage. I could easily see 40+mpg highway if the car isn't pushed, which is amazing considering what the car would be capable of doing. A TDI powered model would be that much better. At 1800lbs you open yourself up to a LOT of possibilities.
Indeed. I have been following a scratch-built-turned-kit builder for years named Steve Graber. His La Bala prototype is up for sale and I was shocked at the economy he was getting for the performance. 4.2S 0-60, 12.6 in the quarter mile and an average of 50MPG (under normal driving circumstances, of course). Check it out for yourself :) http://www.grabercars.com/ Standard disclaimer: I'm not in any way trying to advertise this car and have no stake in its success. In fact, I ruled it out for myself years ago :)
-Matt

[bromikl]

Thanks, kach22i - that's exactly what I was thinking about. Not that I'd want that for the 818, but the Stratospheric Concept has PLENTY of room behind the driver for 2+2 seating. Even with that enormous engine back there. I think the prospect of losing my legs at the slightest front impact isn't worth the ability to carry small people in the back. On the other hand, I take greater risks every time I get on my motorcycle. I guess if you want safety, keep the front-engine unibody car with airbags.

I remember seeing a photo of a 1+2 exo car. Wouldn't that have the front-impact weakness as well? I hear the Smart Car has a surprisingly rigid frame - where injury is more likely from rapid deceleration than from cabin intrusion. Can the frame ever be stiff enough to protect the driver? Something like Formula One cars?

[kach22i]

Something like Formula One cars?
A place about 15 minutes from my house had an Carbon Fiber F1 body (maybe an older Arrow body). I think it was baked in an Autoclave at one time, super hard. The shell was about 5/8" thick with about 20 layers of CF fabric weave in it. I knocked on it (knuckle wrapped), it had a cast iron ring to it, it was just that stiff.

I can imagine if one were not strapped down, you could rattle around inside of it until you turned to Jello.

...................................

Armstrom, I'll add this car to the list of comparable. I've not seen this one before.

[Niburu]

I say 8-1-8.

I've heard it both ways....and there is already a thread
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2269-Pronunciation-of-818

[Silvertop]

Trying to divert our attention and get us arguing about something else? My answer to the pronunciation issue is to simply say "I've heard it both ways". We should get T-shirts that say:

FFR 818
I've heard it both ways

I'll buy one of those! More than one if offered in multiple colors with a pocket............

[Niburu]

I'll buy one of those! More than one if offered in multiple colors with a pocket............
I would soooooo buy that shirt

[16g-95gsx]

Agreed. Drag coefficient being kept equal, the car will pull some incredible fuel economy. My high powered 2.0L was able to pull 32mpg highway when not pushed (600hp at the time), and it's weight was probably around 3000lbs with an awd trans system to boot. 1800lbs, 2wd, and probably a decently aerodynamic body would make the 818 a killer on all accounts, both track AND economy.


I agree in a general way.

Please keep in mind that on a highway when the mass is already in motion, aerodynamics has a greater importance over weight. There is only one of the five designs (first place winner as a fastback coupe) that I know of which comes close to being a kamm-back design.

[kach22i]

One more image for the toe-pinch crowd trying to figure out if they can go rogue and be cab-forward.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/391522-random-transportation-pictures-579.html
3972

[olpro]

Agreed. Drag coefficient being kept equal, the car will pull some incredible fuel economy. My high powered 2.0L was able to pull 32mpg highway when not pushed (600hp at the time), and it's weight was probably around 3000lbs with an awd trans system to boot. 1800lbs, 2wd, and probably a decently aerodynamic body would make the 818 a killer on all accounts, both track AND economy.
My guess is that the aero part of the overall drag is relatively small. More important would be the tires and do you really want a skinny hard tire version of this car?
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transportation/consumer_tips/vehicle_energy_losses.html

[Dave Smith]

West Philly High School nailed OVER 100 mpg at the Green Gran Prix at Watkins Glen last spring running a TDi powered GTM with modified aero (less downforce, less drag). I met with Simon at the open house and he and his team are anxious to run the 818 as soon as possible with that powetrain set-up. The 818 has less frontal area, less drag, and 500 lbs less weight. Simon was getting 70 mpg and really fun performance in the GTM so powered and his statement to me after seeing the 818 chassis, "Let me get my hands on this and you will be shocked at the mpg we can turn in real world driving!"... For me its about a sexy looking car that can meet those objectives. The other two (race and street-roadster) are more focused on performance than any mpg considerations, but that doesnt mean they will be greedy at the pump.

[riptide motorsport]

Sounds greAt......steven

[Oppenheimer]

West Philly High School nailed OVER 100 mpg at the Green Gran Prix at Watkins Glen last spring running a TDi powered GTM with modified aero (less downforce, less drag). I met with Simon at the open house and he and his team are anxious to run the 818 as soon as possible with that powetrain set-up. The 818 has less frontal area, less drag, and 500 lbs less weight. Simon was getting 70 mpg and really fun performance in the GTM so powered and his statement to me after seeing the 818 chassis, "Let me get my hands on this and you will be shocked at the mpg we can turn in real world driving!"... For me its about a sexy looking car that can meet those objectives. The other two (race and street-roadster) are more focused on performance than any mpg considerations, but that doesnt mean they will be greedy at the pump.

Mean Green Machine.

Where is the today Show and the movie producers? Inner city High School kids compete in fuel economy X-Prize, not winning but beating the likes of MIT, then they WIN the Green Grand Prix, sharing podium with the Chevy Volt (Chevy wins 50 mile race, kids win 100 mile). Then their technology is leveraged by famous kit car maker to build eyebrow raising mpg in jaw dropping car with heart stopping performance.

I'd go see that movie.

The Today Show did an spot on these kids back before they won the race. The TDI GTM was shown, but only the bare chassis go-kart. Can you imagine the impact on average-America if Today Show had another spot where they explain the story, then the GTM comes driving out onto the plaza to reveal the car? OMG, THAT got 100 mpg?!?! Who are these kids?

Lets get some PR, get these kids on Letterman or Leno.

[mekeys]

100 mpg has a nice ring to it.

[kach22i]

My guess is that the aero part of the overall drag is relatively small. More important would be the tires and do you really want a skinny hard tire version of this car?
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transportation/consumer_tips/vehicle_energy_losses.html
Interesting link olpro, I don't see right off where they mention the cube-root rule for speed. A very low loss number is listed for aerodynamics in that link, at least from what I've expected.

I've listed this calculator before, just tried it with the stock .35 Cd number, changed it to .27 Cd and got a 10 mpg improvement at 70 mph.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php

That calculator came from this thread:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/online-tool-shows-aerodynamic-drag-rolling-resistance-power-6341.html

I've found this article to be of interest as well:
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/TOPSPEED.htm

POWER REQUIRED
As a simplification therefore we can say that power required is closely related to mph cubed - i.e. to double the speed of a vehicle we need 8 times the engine power. Alternatively we can express this as top speed is a function of the cube root of engine power.

AIR RESISTANCE

This is a function of the frontal area (fA) of the car and its coefficient of drag (Cd). Often car magazine tests show these numbers and all manufacturers will have the data if they can be persuaded to release them. Most modern cars have drag coefficients between 0.3 and 0.4 with a few really streamlined ones as low as 0.28 or so. The Cd is a measure of how "slippery" a shape is as the air goes round it. Copyright David Baker and Puma Race Engines

Frontal areas tend to lie between 19 and 23 square feet for european cars (we can exclude 4 wheel drive yank tanks and similar from this exercise because who cares how fast they go anyway?)

The drag in pounds goes up with the square of speed and can be calculated from the following formula:

Air resistance (lbs) = fA x Cd x 0.00256 x speed squared (speed in mph)

Average family cars have a top speed of 120 mph or so these days so let's have a look at the size of this force at that speed. We'll assume the car has a frontal area of 21 square feet and a Cd of 0.35

Air resistance (lbs) = 21 x 0.35 0.00256 x 120 x 120 = 271 lbs

As you can see this is a much larger force than the rolling resistance. In fact rolling resistance only makes a major difference to vehicle dynamics at very low speeds (under 60 mph or so) and means that heavy cars use more power and therefore have poor fuel consumption at low speeds. At higher speeds the air resistance becomes paramount and so even heavy cars can show good fuel consumption if they are well streamlined.

[Gollum]

My guess is that the aero part of the overall drag is relatively small. More important would be the tires and do you really want a skinny hard tire version of this car?
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/transportation/consumer_tips/vehicle_energy_losses.html

How hard the tire is can be more important than how wide the tire is. There is a reason to go with skinny tires, but first let me say that a wider tire will distribute the weight across a greater area, thus the roll resistance doesn't change proportionality for the width of the tire. In theory if all tires could be 100% identical, width would never change rolling resistance, thus MPG.

BUT, not all tires can be created equal (which is a good thing really). As you make a tire wider and wider, the tread area has a harder and harder time being supported by the sidewall. A really wide tire is really saggy in the middle, and that center section will have a higher rolling resistance than the outsides. Not good for MPG hunters. Another factor is that a wide wheel is heavier, and since it's rotating mass, not mass on the vehicle, every OUNCE matters, not just pound.

Another major factor about wider tires, is that they're more frontal area for aerodynamic drag. Tires are moving at a very high speed compared to the body of the vehicle, and every little bit of aerodynamic help you can get in that area is beneficial, and making that area larger is just plain counterproductive. There's also things you can do to minimize this though, and going wider's adverse affects can be minimized through blocking off tire frontal area and reduction air pressure in the wheel well.

In short, you can get great MPG out of wide tires, but the selection has to be done very carefully and the setup is VERY important. You can ruin the MPG of a geo metro with the right tire, and it's usually not just because it's a "wider than stock" tire that you ruin the MPG. It's a combination of many factors.

[PhyrraM]

I know it's not a popular thought, but @1800pounds, a 205 section tire will be more than adequate for anything but the dragstrip or a track only racecar.

Now, for the vain, I'm sure that the first thought will be "minimum 255 in the rear", but the reality is that there is not enough weight to properly heat or utilize that wide of a tire. Also, with an anticipated near 50/50 weight ditribution, a huge stagger in front/rear tire sizes will be detrimental to 'tossable' nuetral handling and we will be left trying to tame the resultant understeer with grossly huge (and heavy) roll bar combinations or springrates much stiffer than needed on a more balanced car.

I'm going to assume the styling will be based around 205/55R16 or 215/45R17 as those are the WRX stock sizes for the years targetted as donors.

[Gollum]

I know it's not a popular thought, but @1800pounds, a 205 section tire will be more than adequate for anything but the dragstrip or a track only racecar.

Now, for the vain, I'm sure that the first thought will be "minimum 255 in the rear", but the reality is that there is not enough weight to properly heat or utilize that wide of a tire. Also, with an anticipated near 50/50 weight ditribution, a huge stagger in front/rear tire sizes will be detrimental to 'tossable' nuetral handling and we will be left trying to tame the resultant understeer with grossly huge (and heavy) roll bar combinations or springrates much stiffer than needed on a more balanced car.

I'm going to assume the styling will be based around 205/55R16 or 215/45R17 as those are the WRX stock sizes for the years targetted as donors.

I approve this post.

I'm usually one to put as much tire as will fit in a wheel well, but that said many people don't realize how much weight is always the enemy. At 1800 pounds for a "street car", with just a 205 wide tread it will feel like a mustang with 295+ wide tread, if not better.

My approach has usually been to match the drive tire to the HP of the engine factored against the weight of the car and how well it will put that power down. Of course you also have to take into consideration the intended use and what's practical. You can get away with a 300hp 2500 pound car with just 225's if they're really sticky, but maybe that's not the best idea depending on where the car will be used how.

For a high mpg daily driver 818 that only has say, 180hp or so (average stockish 2 liter TDI motor right?) I'd place the wheel width range between 185min and 205 max. You could go with a 185 as long as it was fairly sticky, lower than 400 treadwear but you could also go with a harder 205 which will tend to lead to higher inflatable pressure if you want to get top mpg. Will it burn the tires on full throttle? Yes. But it will be very manageable still. In normal street driving that tire size should still be fine.

The thing to remember, is that many of the high MPG cars only have a 185 or 195 tire, and weight a LOT more than the 818 will, so the 818 will still handle far better than anything else imaginable that it would be compared against. And I don't know about you all, but the idea of building something for the price of a civic that gets better MPG than anything in the US market is VERY appealing. I can build a 60mpg CRX, but it's going to be fairly gutless and not exactly street friendly anymore at that point. A high MPG 818 would be a much better option and in reality wouldn't cost much more than shooting for similar MPG numbers by using an existing chassis. And the rewards for going this route are immense.

But that's just my two cents. I really excited to see each version of the 818 come out. I think they all have their merit and deserve time in the limelight.

[Dave Smith]

Mean Green Machine.

Where is the today Show and the movie producers? Inner city High School kids compete in fuel economy X-Prize, not winning but beating the likes of MIT, then they WIN the Green Grand Prix, sharing podium with the Chevy Volt (Chevy wins 50 mile race, kids win 100 mile). Then their technology is leveraged by famous kit car maker to build eyebrow raising mpg in jaw dropping car with heart stopping performance.

I'd go see that movie.

The Today Show did an spot on these kids back before they won the race. The TDI GTM was shown, but only the bare chassis go-kart. Can you imagine the impact on average-America if Today Show had another spot where they explain the story, then the GTM comes driving out onto the plaza to reveal the car? OMG, THAT got 100 mpg?!?! Who are these kids?

Lets get some PR, get these kids on Letterman or Leno.

THIS is why I cant sleep at night. We have such an amazing story behind the high-mpg version of the 818 and it is nothing but the truth. Investing in that program and Simon and those kids was so easy and the tech transfer for the 818 will be a snap. Still, I want to make sure that WHEN we are ready with a completed car/kit, that it has been tested, ready for production and not some half-baked marketing claim that takes years to come to life and ends up completely different than the concept and dissapoints... Too much is a done deal for us to mess it up with premature marketing releases... still I feel the same excitement about the amazing story and you left out the community body and vehicle influence and the other capable models on the same platform. In my humble opinion, this is a tremendous opportunity for FFR to show the world what we can do together!

[Oppenheimer]

THIS is why I cant sleep at night. We have such an amazing story behind the high-mpg version of the 818 and it is nothing but the truth. Investing in that program and Simon and those kids was so easy .......this is a tremendous opportunity for FFR to show the world what we can do together!

Understood about spilling the beans to the rest of world too early. You get a line of people banging on your door distracting you, then when you can't produce immediate results you fade from view, then its that much harder to get anyone (outside the community) excited once you deliver.

But I'm thinking the focus could (initially) be on the kids, and what they achieved. I really feel that would make an inspiring movie. Reminds me of a movie I saw about some High School kids in a solar powered race. They were up against big universities, high tech companies with big budgets, they had setbacks they had to overcome, in the end they win the big race. Their car looked like a mutant cockroach built by blind Monkeys, yet it was still a good movie.

The Philly HS is the same story, with some important differences. The car is a GTM and looks unbelievable, there is a serious green movement going on right now, and the fruits of their labor are being put to use in a US manufacturing effort putting people to work in the middle of a sagging economy.

It would be cool if Hollywood picked up on the story. By the time the movie was out, the 818 would be in production. See the movie on Sunday, buy the kit on Monday.

[BipDBo]

Also, with an anticipated near 50/50 weight ditribution, ...

What makes you think it will be 50/50? There's hardly anything up front. There's only the radiator, which might weigh 60#, full of coolant. I'd guess a weight distribution more like 40/60 like the Aerial Atom.

I would agree that the standard WRX wheels would be sufficient all around and that putting bigger tires in the back would be a detriment because of the weight. Maybe of you wanted to rally the thing you would want wider rubber. I would think that it might even be a slight performance improvement to have smaller front wheels.

[Wayne Presley]

What makes you think it will be 50/50? There's hardly anything up front. There's only the radiator, which might weigh 60#, full of coolant. I'd guess a weight distribution more like 40/60 like the Aerial Atom.

I would agree that the standard WRX wheels would be sufficient all around and that putting bigger tires in the back would be a detriment because of the weight. Maybe of you wanted to rally the thing you would want wider rubber. I would think that it might even be a slight performance improvement to have smaller front wheels.

I track prep a few Lotus Elises and the weigh in impound after winning Sat and Sun was 767 Fr and 1175 Rr total 1942 lbs 39.5%Fr/60.5%Rr. The 818 should be very similar.

[PhyrraM]

The Elise uses a transverse motor that is almost directly over the wheel centerline. The seats are also further back in the chassis compared to the prototype 818 chassis because the transverse motor allows the rear bulkhead to be closer.

The Subaru based 818, by comparision, has the motor mounted much further forward because it's a longitudinal mounted motor. As long as the factory plumbing is used (and I have seen no indication it will be replaced) the complete motor, the complete turbo, the flywheel and clutch are all forward of the rear wheel centerline. The fuel tank is in front of the already forward placed motor - and the passengers in front of that.

Also, keep in mind that any weight placed between the wheel centerlines will tend equalize between them - as opposed to weight outside of the wheels that tends to add to one, by removing from the other (teeter-totter, so to speak).

The 818 will be much closer to 50/50 than many will originally suspect. Maybe not a perfect 50/50, but much closer than an Elise.

[Wayne Presley]

The Elise uses a transverse motor that is almost directly over the wheel centerline. The seats are also further back in the chassis compared to the prototype 818 chassis because the transverse motor allows the rear bulkhead to be closer.

The Subaru based 818, by comparision, has the motor mounted much further forward because it's a longitudinal mounted motor. As long as the factory plumbing is used (and I have seen no indication it will be replaced) the complete motor, the complete turbo, the flywheel and clutch are all forward of the rear wheel centerline. The fuel tank is in front of the already forward placed motor - and the passengers in front of that.

Also, keep in mind that any weight placed between the wheel centerlines will tend equalize between them - as opposed to weight outside of the wheels that tends to add to one, by removing from the other (teeter-totter, so to speak).

The 818 will be much closer to 50/50 than many will originally suspect. Maybe not a perfect 50/50, but much closer than an Elise.

50/50 isn't perfect for a rear wheel drive car. There is also a good portion of the Sube trans behind the rear axle.

[mekeys]

These threads are getting too analytical for me ,I just want to see a BEAUTIFUL body..

[Gollum]

50/50 isn't perfect for a rear wheel drive car. There is also a good portion of the Sube trans behind the rear axle.

I agree, but getting close certainly makes it easier to setup the chassis to handle predictably. I'm all for the reasons to make a RWD vehicle rear biased, but in the end most of the examples out there are generally more difficult for the average joe to drive when comparing vehicles that are close to balanced.

No matter where the 818 ends up, we'll be able to make them handle well, so I'm not too worried about it.

[Wayne Presley]

I agree, but getting close certainly makes it easier to setup the chassis to handle predictably. I'm all for the reasons to make a RWD vehicle rear biased, but in the end most of the examples out there are generally more difficult for the average joe to drive when comparing vehicles that are close to balanced.

No matter where the 818 ends up, we'll be able to make them handle well, so I'm not too worried about it.

The Elise is supremely easy to drive fast, has no bad manners at all. Very neutral in cornering and easy to use trailing throttle oversteer to tighten up the line.

[PhyrraM]

I am not worried that the car can/can-be-made-to handle extremely well. The weight and available tire grip will assure spectacular objective numbers.

I was simply pointing out that IF the car ends up close to 50/50 (and I think it will for the reasons stated) THEN a stagged tire set up - while visually sexy - will not be ideal.

However, the actual pleasure of driving the 818 (on the street) will not come from the objective measurements - regardless of how high they may be. The car will be ultimately judged on it's subjective merits which have way more to do with attention to details at the design, assembly, and setup stages than weight distribution or at the limit breakaway characteristics.

[kach22i]

Also remember that tail heavy cars like the Porsche 911 will have a 50/50 weight distribution under full braking load.

It's not such a bad thing to be a little tail heavy under certain conditions.

[NicksPapaw]

It's not such a bad thing to be a little tail heavy under certain conditions.


I mentioned that to a fat girl once. She wasn't amused. :D

[BipDBo]

One good car to compare is the Porsche 914, which has a very similar layout. I think that the 818 will be slightly more tail heavy than the 914, though, since it has a heavier engine but a lower overall weight. The weight distribution for the 914 is 46/54, which happens to be right in the middle of the allowed limits for Formula 1. Maybe we should plan on multiple locations for the battery for different track conditions. It looks like the 818 will fall somewhere between a Lotus Elise and Formula 1. I predict that it will handle pretty well.

[bobzdar]

I doubt the subaru engine is much heavier than the 914 - the 914 engine and trans is not light. A buddy of mine has one and was considering an ls or similar swap as the weight increase was not much. The center section is aluminum but the cylinders are cast iron.

There are some WRX engine swaps out there and they say the WRX engine weighs less than the 914 engine fwiw...

[Gollum]

The Elise is supremely easy to drive fast, has no bad manners at all. Very neutral in cornering and easy to use trailing throttle oversteer to tighten up the line.

Are you assuming what I meant? Go back and re-read it please. I said "to make handle predictably". The elise is a prime example of a well set up car that most experienced drivers can take to the track and not kill themselves. Most cars with that weight distribution aren't so kind. That said, talk to anyone who tracks their car a lot at HPDE type events and you'll find out that many people steer clear of Lotuses at the track because they have a terrible reputation of being driven by beginners who will give into the oversteer fear and pull out throttle and end up backwards. It's not the cars fault, it's the drivers. But put the same driver in a miata and they would probably be a little less prone to spin-out because the car gives more feedback before going tail-out.

Porches are NOTORIOUS for being VERY difficult to drive and requiring serious dedication to driving in order to be able to drive them at the limit. I personally feel much of the reputation is again based on the fact that beginners have a hard time with them, combined with a few models that are less forgiving. That doesn't make them bad, it just makes the learning curve steeper.

But real interesting thing I find though, is that most of these cars aren't difficult to take because of weight balance alone, but weight balance and the fact they're stiffly sprung to get the most out of their grip and are designed for minimal suspension travel while cornering. The reason I brought up the miata, is that it's a near 50/50 car combined with soft compliant suspension that gives the car plenty of roll to tell you how hard you're cornering. It's the definition of a beginners car.

So to re-iterate for those that aren't getting where I stand. A 50/50 balanced car will ALWAYS be easier to make handle in a predictable manner, but that being said any car can be set up to feel one way or the other. You can make a front heavy mustang oversteer, and you can make a tail heavy lambo understeer.


I doubt the subaru engine is much heavier than the 914 - the 914 engine and trans is not light. A buddy of mine has one and was considering an ls or similar swap as the weight increase was not much. The center section is aluminum but the cylinders are cast iron.

There are some WRX engine swaps out there and they say the WRX engine weighs less than the 914 engine fwiw...

I was just helping a friend pick up his motor from machine shop jail before assembly and I was able to pick up the block and completed heads in one box by myself with ease. It wasn't even straining me really. I've moved his motor around assembled and know that it's much heavier once completed, but it's amazing how much weight lies in the crank, rods, and pistons in relation to the rest of everything. Take the crank, rods and pistons out of any I-4 and they're still not too light to just be picking up and moving around.

Weather the subie motor is lighter than the 914 I don't know. I'm just saying it's darn light no matter which way you cut it. The full gas tank will probably weight quite a bit more than the engine!

[Wayne Presley]

So is your point that the 818 should have 50/50 weight balance, softly suspended, and give up overall grip so everyone regardless of skill level will be able to not spin out at a track event?

I've driven miatas (50/50), FFR roadsters(48/52) , corvettes (52/48), D Sports racer(42/58), Lotus 7 (50/50), 350Z (56/44), and all can have trailing throttle oversteer even though they all are neutral to slight push at max cornering. And all all come back in to line when the throttle brought back to neutral. You want to know the car with the worst manners, fox body mustang with a 4 link rear end. Snap oversteer in a car that plow like a dumptruck until you're facing the wrong way...

[kach22i]

One more "toe pinch" car, a UK kit car called the Avenger, based on a 1969 Beetle.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/2011%20Battle%20of%20the%20Brits%20-%20Auto%20Show/#!cpZZ3QQtppZZ20
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/2011%20Battle%20of%20the%20Brits%20-%20Auto%20Show/DSCF3407.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/2011%20Battle%20of%20the%20Brits%20-%20Auto%20Show/DSCF3408.jpg

As you can see in this example, it's the pedal movement or action which is beyond the wheel well.

[Gollum]

So is your point that the 818 should have 50/50 weight balance, softly suspended, and give up overall grip so everyone regardless of skill level will be able to not spin out at a track event?

I've driven miatas (50/50), FFR roadsters(48/52) , corvettes (52/48), D Sports racer(42/58), Lotus 7 (50/50), 350Z (56/44), and all can have trailing throttle oversteer even though they all are neutral to slight push at max cornering. And all all come back in to line when the throttle brought back to neutral. You want to know the car with the worst manners, fox body mustang with a 4 link rear end. Snap oversteer in a car that plow like a dumptruck until you're facing the wrong way...

I never said what I wanted the 818 to be. I know I'd prefer it to be sub 40/60 distribution and will probably run fairly heavy springs myself.

The only reason I weighed in on the subject was that balanced cars are easier to make handle predictably, and seeing as we're all going to be building them it'll be a big deal. People in the FFR community understand that the GTM isn't going to handle like a supercar out of the box, and will take time and patience to handle well, and out of the box could handle so poorly that you could kill yourself. This isn't FFR's fault, it's the nature of building a car and having to do the chassis tuning yourself.

A 50/50 car is simply going to be easier to balance as a builder. The further it gets from that split, the more interesting it will be to get it to behave nicely. Of course there's cars who's suspension is almost a trump all - bad choice to make the car handle poorly, like the mustang's abysmal stock 4 link setup.

Again, that said even if the 818 comes in at 25/75 we'll still be able to make it handle well. It just might REQUIRE offset size tires at that point.

It's my desire that FFR make the 818 the best it possibly can, and I'll personally make it work for me. If it's 50/50 then I'll take appropriate steps to setup the car once complete, and I'd say the same thing if it turns out to be a wide offset in weight. At 1800 pounds it will handle well, I just don't know how I'll go about attacking it until I know more, such as the balance, suspension geometry, struts, bars, etc.

And regarding different vehicles and how they behave, of course pretty much all vehicles can exhibit the same throttle oversteer tendencies when driving accordingly, but it's what it takes to get it there that will differ from vehicle to vehicle. Almost any vehicle is going to want to understeer if you're late braking while trying to get the nose to turn in. That's just plain physics. But some vehicles will take to late braking better depending on other factors. Some cars you know to never late brake, while others are more forgiving. I'm not going to argue that we can build a 818 that will be impossible to spin out, easy for everyone to drive, and be the fastest thing on the track. The miata is a great example that you can't have everything. The miata is great except that it's horribly underpowered and once you get some power under the hood you have to totally rethink the suspension setup. There's a balance that the miata strikes that makes it a wonderful vehicle and an excellent beginner's car. I always strive to attain that kind of balance with my cars or any car I help someone with. Too much of anything can kill the overall enjoyment of a car.

[markesmith]

I have been following this for quite some time, from the Philly kids and now this 818. The real problem is what do i build next? I have time so i will wait to see what happens with the 818. I was wondering after reading a lot on the GTM car bult by Philly what kind of performance it has. I can find quite a bit on the storym the students etc but nothing on what kind of performance was achieved. Can anyone lead me to the answers?

Thanks,

Mark
Naples, Florida
FFR 5458

[Olimk2]

Shame you don't have the subaru flat four diesel in the US, very good engine and would be easier to fit...

[crobin4]

Shame you don't have the subaru flat four diesel in the US, very good engine and would be easier to fit...

We don't have it yet, maybe in a year or two. Rumors at least. The Hybrid will be first though.:rolleyes:

[bbjones121]

Shame you don't have the subaru flat four diesel in the US, very good engine and would be easier to fit...

yeah yeah...that would be great if we get them!

[wooward]

Finally got done reading through 10 pages of this thread. Well, that and few detours along the way (GTM, Smyth, Grabercars websites). I'm thinking the 818 will be my first kit car now. :)

[Duratec7]

I've been planning to build a Lotus Seven clone, but the 818 is so much more, I'm switching camps!

[Smythe]

Wasn't there supposed to be pictures of clay models already or am I mistaken?

Need more info!

[ScottKoschwitz]

So, the latest issue (November 2011) of Grassroots Motorsports arrived at my house yesterday. I was just looking at it on my lunch hour and what do I see on page 13? A picture of what is represented to be the clay model of one of the four 818 designs! First impressions: nicely proportioned, nice curves, maybe a little conservative, but definitely something I'd build and drive. I'm not a Subaru guy, but it looks like it may incorporate stock headlights.

[D2W]

Scott is it different than what Dave has already shown us?

[riptide motorsport]

Look at this boys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:cool:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3572-Sneak-Peek-of-Project-818-Concet-Model-1-of-4

[ScottKoschwitz]

Scott is it different than what Dave has already shown us?

Yes. The one I saw does not look like the tease we saw of Xabier's design, or the latest shot in the thread above.

[ScottKoschwitz]

Here's the scan of the page I mentioned:

4514

Maybe the design for the high MPG 818?

Edit: Now that I look at it more closely, it's probably the roadster. Initially, my attention was drawn to the nose, which seems more aerodynamic than the Xabier design. If you look behind the seats, though, you see two farings are planned. I think this design is designed to not have a roof.

[thebeerbaron]

That looks to be full scale, which would make it Jim's in-house design. IIRC, the plan is to shrink it down to 1/4 scale and present it next to the other three.

All of the body designs at this point are for the initial vehicle, the roadster.

[kitcarj]

I am a little sad if that is the 4th design. I was hoping for something more outrageous. I don't know how Rodney's design will turn out but if that is the 4th design (was there a 5th?) then all but Rodney's will be fairly similar. They all fall Visually in between a Boxster or 2nd gen Miata and the Lotus Elise. I was hoping most, if not all of the cars, would be at least as exciting as the Elise visually.

They will all make beautiful cars and may be track killers or have great economy. But I can't see them being posters on the walls of boys everywhere like the Lamborghini Countach, 959, Vector or Ferrari Testarossa were when I was younger. At least not based on there exotic looks. I know it is a little early to jump to judgement but just my $.02.

If I had an 818 I would prefer it to be confused with a Ferrari then a Miata or Boxster.

[shinn497]

My thoughts exactly. I'm all for exotic and exciting. Not something that could be confused for mazda.

[Flamshackle]

My thoughts exactly. I'm all for exotic and exciting. Not something that could be confused for mazda.

for under 20K?

I think you forget the design brief and budget they are working to.

Believe me these will look incredible once finished. Its easy to judge these in the early stages and actually one reason im not all for these leaked images.

Be patient people and we will see 4 stunning cars I rekon :D

[D2W]

I'm disappointed if that's Jim's design, too bland. Its odd that the design that Jim picked in the contest was one of the wildest ones, and the one he designs is boring. I think Xabier's is too mild and I like it more than this one. I hope Dave is right and the final design knocks my socks off, I can buy a miata for a lot cheaper.

Edit: After going back and looking again that design takes a lot of lines from Xabier's design and tones is down. The front is very similiar, the slope over the front wheel down the door and over the rear wheel is similiar, just not as drastic. The rear scoop even has the same tilt. I also notice some GTM cues.

[PhyrraM]

That one does look full scale. I'd be guessing Jim's design also.

Notice the factory lights (Toyota Camry?) and an OEM windshield from something (Miata?).....

The roll bar looks out of place, but other than that it look workable.

[shinn497]

The question then is are more unique bodies costlier to produce? I have posed this question earlier. I actually feel like the 818 can accomplish the same things as a more exotic car that is more expensive. Ffr's race chasis building experience give me confidence that the performance will be there. It will have the exclusivity. All it needs are looks.

Call me suoetficial, but in my neck of the woods cars are a huge status symbol. That is why I want something with unique styling. The design in grassroots looks like a s2k witn a kit. I need something that doesnt try to be anything else and is very unique. Think K-1 attack or 2015 elise.

[D2W]

ok you're suoetficial:)

[Niburu]

My thoughts exactly. I'm all for exotic and exciting. Not something that could be confused for mazda.
For the vast majority of the non-car people out there anything that small will immediatly get confused for a Miata.
I've overheard Elises and Boxsters both being called Miatas, of course I've also heard RX-7's being called Porsches.
And what praytell is exactly wrong with Mazda?

[kach22i]

I've overheard Elises and Boxsters both being called Miatas, of course I've also heard RX-7's being called Porsches.
Don't you guys call any sweetened carbonated beverage a "Coke"?

Just saying, it must be a cultural thing.

Funny stuff, I swear several Boxster owners I've been near on the streets had no clues as to what make, model or year my 1977 911s targa is. I get this; what is that? look from them.


Edit: Now that I look at it more closely, it's probably the roadster.

Looks like a Miata with a modest kit on it. A larger rear intake rake vent on the side, and lowering the nose will make this look more like a mid-engined car.

EDIT: Did a quick mark-up, came out a little Spyker-ish in the nose, some Elise or Boxster-ish headlights, and a Audi TT like tail. Moved it away from the Miata look, not that it was bad, just fooling around - can't help myself.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/GKA-FFR-Markup-092311.jpg

[Niburu]

Don't you guys call any sweetened carbonated beverage a "Coke"?

Just saying, it must be a cultural thing..

first off I'm from NY - originally
secondly that's a deep south thing, not up here in the Mid-Atlantic region
thirdly it would be prefferable to calling a soda something stupid like "pop"


Funny stuff, I swear several Boxster owners I've been near on the streets had no clues as to what make, model or year my 1977 911s targa is. I get this; what is that? look from them..

I'm pretty sure many Boxster owners don't even know what the name of the car is derived from.
Have you looked one of them oper, you can't even get to the engine unless you put it up on a lift.

[kach22i]

thirdly it would be prefferable to calling a soda something stupid like "pop"
Well I call it "pop" as in Soda Pop, definitely a cultural thing.:)

[ScottKoschwitz]

My thoughts exactly. I'm all for exotic and exciting. Not something that could be confused for mazda.

I don't know. I think as long as the car has good lines, you can dress it up to be as exotic and exciting looking as you want. Body color, vinyl, wheel style, wheel size, wheel color, spoilers, wings, and exhaust systems can drastically change the look of a car.

Me, I tend to like cars that look sleek as opposed to brash. My friend has an Elise in Krypton Green and loves the color. My choice would have been more subtle, like Nightfall Blue Metallic or Bourdeaux Red. By the way, he says the Elise gets enough attention to make you uncomfortable at times. I don't think that comes down to the color only. The color gets their attention; the good lines, uniqueness, and what-is-that? factor get them excited. The same will happen with the 818 - provided it has good lines.

[mekeys]

I call it Sprite because thats the only one I ever drink..

[Silvertop]

That looks to be full scale, which would make it Jim's in-house design. IIRC, the plan is to shrink it down to 1/4 scale and present it next to the other three.

All of the body designs at this point are for the initial vehicle, the roadster.

It DOES look to be full scale, so your assumption is probably correct.

However, I got the distinct impression from Dave's earlier posts that the four designs being modeled are NOT necessarily all meant to be the roadster possibilities . For example, I thought the 1st place car was being prepared as a coupe for potential use as the MPG model. I've been guessing that Xabier's will be presented as a Targa-Top (and thus may not necessarily be the first produced), and that the Olmos 2nd place car might be being prepared as an option for the Roadster (though it also has Targa-coupe possibilities), with the other Roadster possibility being the in-house design.

Of course, the likelihood is that FFR doesn't really know the answer to that themselves yet, and any one of them could wind up being the first-out roadster. But I kind of think that they ultimately hope to use all four designs, or at least three of the four for different applications.

[EmergencyDeep]

ScottKoschwitz - I'm with you. Some of the styling comments are frustrating to read. Almost like, "Oh, its white? I was hoping it would come in colors.." It is a kit. If you want a wing - make one and add it. Scoop? Make one and add it. Check out the GTM forums and you will see any number of interesting styling touches added to a great basic body shape. Proportions are really really important and really hard to change. Headlights, by comparison, are really easy.

On the topic of 818 not being called a Miata, whenever I drove my father's 1991 Lotus Elan, I often ended up in this conversation:
Guy: "What kind of Ferrari is that?" (it was a red car)
Me: "Actually, it's a Lotus."
Guy:"Who makes that?"

I guess what I'm saying is that if someone can't tell a Miata from an 818, I really don't care what they think about cars.

[BipDBo]

I think that the full sized model scanned from the Grassroots magazine is simply Xabier's car with Camry headlights and a much needed aerodynamic improvement to the front.

[thebeerbaron]

My issue with styling isn't wings and scoops. It's a question of groundbreaking styling vs bland "camry" styling. I'll withhold judgement until I see more pictures of all four entries, but I have the sinking feeling I will be disappointed. RISD did a great job and Xabier has an elegant design. I simply think it lacks a unique design voice that should be present in such a killer vehicle.

[Dave Smith]

This GRM photo was mistakenly released and it is of an early concept (many months ago). It was designed using ques from Xabiers front end, and IS a full size mock-up of the core shape but all this conversation has me DYING to show you the different shapes as they are quite different than what is shown in the GRM release.

[Oppenheimer]

Am I alone in seeing lots of MR2 Spyder in that Grassroots spyshot?

PS - I call it Rum and Coke.

[kach22i]

After that last comment, had to see them side by side. Looking more mid-engined like an MR-2 would be a good thing in my opinion.

http://students.ou.edu/Z/Phillip.F.Zhang-1/mr2.html
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/mr2.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/818Scan.jpg

[Mad Dog]

Dave was horrified that people were comparing the concept 4 car to an MR-2. The photo in GRM was of the substrate shape and has evolved tremendously (very different and longer nose with rear similar to these previous photos) and is much more cutting edge/radical. Here are some spyshots to help people know that we would never make an MR-2 (Dave's words). These pictures were taken during surface scanning and the shape will evolve even further before solid modeling is shown as a complete car to you guys.

http://www.factoryfive.com/images/ffforum/spy1.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/images/ffforum/spy3.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/images/ffforum/spy4.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/images/ffforum/spy5.jpg

[Oppenheimer]

Well if I'd known that insulting the design by comparing to something plebian would result in more cool spyshots, I would have done that sooner!

This looks really cool.

[thebeerbaron]

Great update!

Still waiting to see all four in detail (possibly in person).

If I say it looks too much like a Yugo, will Dave release more photos in an apoplectic fit? ;)

[drewmob]

Thank you for the much-needed update.

[sid]

Say it looks like a GEO Metro convertable and you'll probably get a completed car in your driveway.

[GUNS]

Wow, I can't wait for this to be released!

[PhyrraM]

I looks like a Geo Metro Convertable.

[Dave Smith]

I have 20 PM's that I havent had time to get to! BUT I just couldnt take the criticism and the guys here wanted to wait until the 4 unveil and gloat and say "told you so" but I guess I'm a fragile guy... MR2! Seriously, thanks for the great comments all thru this process which continues with such professionalism and careful consideration. Jim and Jesper have been outstanding and patient. This 818 project is very exciting to me as I am trying to ensure, as I said previously, that our "reach exceeds our grasp". There is so much more to show! Dave

[GUNS]

Dave,

Any chance that we can get a sneak peak at the front end, just to make sure that it doesn't look like a MR-2?

[ScottKoschwitz]

Well, that "early concept" has good lines. I can see in the later pictures, the lines are a little more taut, which is nice. I definitely think this front end intake is better than Xabier's original design.

Assuming this concept is still being developed: maybe use a NACA duct for the intake on the rear quarter? If may function better as a duct considering its alignment, and would look kind of racy.

I'm really impressed with the technology used to develop these models.

[crobin4]

Dave,

Any chance that we can get a sneak peak at the front end, just to make sure that it doesn't look like a MR-2?

Yes Dave, I think Guns is right. We shouldn't take any chances, now.;)

[D2W]

Those spyshots look a lot better than the GRM released photo. I'm curious to see how the rear headrest fairing look/work with the rollbar. They appear much lower than the rollbar.

[Flamshackle]

oh wow!!! i am currently geekin out about the potential of all these designs now! thanks to all involved for your passion to make such AWESOME looking cars!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! I CANT WAIT!!!

[shinn497]

I am glad dave pays such close attention.

[kach22i]

plebian
I had to look that one up, Google corrected the spelling as plebeian, still I learned something.

I thought it looked like a Miata not an MR2 (thought I should clarify), the extra photos have convinced me this was a premature observation. The hind quarters look rather muscular so far, just not overtly so.

I like the MR-2, it's the car Porsche should have been building as the new 914 (the Boxster is no "entry car"). The 3rd gen MR-2 takes very well to after market cosmetic make over kits, as the starting point it leaves something to be desired.

I don't know how the design team is going to resolve the rear transaxle projecting out the tail end. Looks like a modest rear overhang from the angles shown. Gives me even more to look forward to.

[mekeys]

I have to see the whole thing before I make any comments.I tend to agree with kitcarj tho (comment # 402 above)..

[bbjones121]

Dave was horrified that people were comparing the concept 4 car to an MR-2. The photo in GRM was of the substrate shape and has evolved tremendously (very different and longer nose with rear similar to these previous photos) and is much more cutting edge/radical. Here are some spyshots to help people know that we would never make an MR-2 (Dave's words). These pictures were taken during surface scanning and the shape will evolve even further before solid modeling is shown as a complete car to you guys.

http://www.factoryfive.com/images/ffforum/spy1.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/images/ffforum/spy3.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/images/ffforum/spy4.jpg

http://www.factoryfive.com/images/ffforum/spy5.jpg

I hope those side vents cut in more. It seems like all serious exotic designs have deep vents, not the superficial, fake looking vents of mass produced sports cars. I guess it is probably difficult to manufacture that into the body. Maybe that is why you don’t see it on most generic sports cars on the road, just the really expensive ones.

Besides that, I think the spy shots look great! Having two options for air intake or intercooler vents on both sides would be awesome. Maybe the upper vent could be used to cool the engine bay. I am getting pretty excited.

[PhyrraM]

I hope those side vents cut in more. It seems like all serious exotic designs have deep vents, not the superficial, fake looking vents of mass produced sports cars. I guess it is probably difficult to manufacture that into the body. Maybe that is why you don’t see it on most generic sports cars on the road, just the really expensive ones.

The cars you are thinking of likely have rear mounted radiators that need large amounts of air at full load.

The only air *NEEDED* in the rear of the 818 is engine intake (relatively small opening) and air to the intercooler. The radiator seems pretty firmly in the front at this point.

[Niburu]

The cars you are thinking of likely have rear mounted radiators that need large amounts of air at full load.

The only air *NEEDED* in the rear of the 818 is engine intake (relatively small opening) and air to the intercooler. The radiator seems pretty firmly in the front at this point.
Do you think the oil cooler will be moved up there as well?

[PhyrraM]

Do you think the oil cooler will be moved up there as well?

The oil cooler, on cars that have them, is water cooled. It uses a coolant loop off the water pump.

[16g-95gsx]

Thanks for the Monday morning laugh. I do agree though, the GRM pic looked goofy, I just didn't open my mouth and keep faith that the end product would have been far different.

[Ks2]

i wonder if he means an aftermarket oil cooler, either they mount behind the radiator or on the top of the motor where the top mount intercooler goes... of course if you want this it is because you have a front mount intercooler

http://www.blinemotorsports.com/oilcool.html

i imagine unless you are putting down a stupid amount of power you wouldnt need this... a larger oil pan would do better

[Gollum]

The oil cooler, on cars that have them, is water cooled. It uses a coolant loop off the water pump.

Though I've seen that, I've seen them be freestanding as well. I've even owned a couple of engines that might be one of the first japanese motors with an OEM oil cooler, the L28ET from the 81-83 280ZX turbo. It was a fully fledged tank and end cap design, not a cheap bent line with fins attached like what you see on many cheap ebay coolers too!

Point being, many oil coolers ARE standalone systems that aren't attached to the coolant system. That said though, they don't require huge amounts of air flow.

[Twinspool]

I have heard of nothing but benefits from shunting cooling to the oil system. A thermostatically controlled oil-air cooler set to pull the oil temps down to <200°F would help a great deal, especially in a performance oriented vehicle that's destined to see WOT on every on-ramp it sees.

[Steve91T]

Don't forget, this can also raise the water temps. It goes both ways. I personally would rather have an inexpensive, simple, air to air oil cooler.

Steve

[PhyrraM]

I was only refering to the stock system.

Of course, if you choose aftermarket, the sky is the limit.

[Doc_FFR]

The old spy shots look like the Honda S2000 to me. The production values looked a little "symple" if you know what I mean (No offense). Glad to see things like complex curves and lasers and whatnot. Keep up the good work.

[kach22i]

The old spy shots look like the Honda S2000 to me.
I can definitely see that comparison too, it's a good one. The hood is lower and hind quarters of the S2000 is unadorned, but the mouth is there.

http://www.carpictures.com/Honda/S2000-silver-2003-04EHI273826955
4744

[Nelff]

Talking about oil coolers that are incorporated into the water cooling system... After talking to a Ford Engineer about their oil cooler on the first 4.6 engines, I learned that the oil temps were controlled both ways. On cold engine startup the water temps go up first. If the oil is circulated through a water heat exchange (the oil cooler) while the water is warming, then the oil is actually brought up to temp sooner. This allows the oil to work at design temp sooner. Then as the oil temp rises the water heat exchange then become an oil cooler. Just a bit of info...

[Draco-REX]

Talking about oil coolers that are incorporated into the water cooling system... After talking to a Ford Engineer about their oil cooler on the first 4.6 engines, I learned that the oil temps were controlled both ways. On cold engine startup the water temps go up first. If the oil is circulated through a water heat exchange (the oil cooler) while the water is warming, then the oil is actually brought up to temp sooner. This allows the oil to work at design temp sooner. Then as the oil temp rises the water heat exchange then become an oil cooler. Just a bit of info...
Yup. A lot of people who have both an aftermarket coolant temp gauge and oil temp gauge have commented on that behavior, and not just in Ford's.

[16g-95gsx]

You also can get oil that doesn't heat up fully during short drives to release condensate, allowing it to build. This is also a bad thing for large air cooled systems.

[ehansen007]

I have 20 PM's that I havent had time to get to! BUT I just couldnt take the criticism and the guys here wanted to wait until the 4 unveil and gloat and say "told you so" but I guess I'm a fragile guy... MR2! Seriously, thanks for the great comments all thru this process which continues with such professionalism and careful consideration. Jim and Jesper have been outstanding and patient. This 818 project is very exciting to me as I am trying to ensure, as I said previously, that our "reach exceeds our grasp". There is so much more to show! Dave

We believe in you man. You've already brought us some great cars and we can't wait for another. Proof this is how your "818 Project updates from DAVE" has turned into such an opinionated chat session! It's hard to even find your updates! Keep up the great work man, the car is looking great.

[Gollum]

Kind of off topic, but if you're really concerned about oil warm up temps, you can get a heating pad designed for people in the frozen north to not require block heaters. Set it on a timer for 15-30 minutes before you leave in the morning and you'll have an engine (and transmission if you get a heater big enough for that too) that's nearly at temp right at the start. Makes for one happy engine.

[David Budd]

OK Dave, I am just about ready to order a kit right now. I don't want/need to wait for your final body design array, I like what I have seen so far and Factory Five has long since earned my trust. Let's forget about the body designs for the moment and concentrate on finishing the chassis design and putting together a useable build parts list and build instructions so that those of us who feel as I do can start now. Later you can show us the body alternatives available. I am assuming that the chassis pick-up points for the body will work for each of the design alternatives, right? If yes, what are we waiting for? If not, I womder why not? I want to source my subi donor now, accumulate parts and start wrenching. I want my 818 however it is pronounced!

[Oppenheimer]

I am assuming that the chassis pick-up points for the body will work for each of the design alternatives, right? If yes, what are we waiting for? If not, I womder why not?

Well I'm sure that is their hope/plan, but the body designs aren't even close to decided yet, so how could they be sure the same chassis pick-up points will work for all the bodies?

I would think though it would be the same basic chassis, then any chassis pick-up points that are dramatically different from one body to the next would be accomodated by bolt-on or weld-on sub-frames.

But I think the biggest reason they can't get you a parts list yet is they won't know how much they can reuse off the donor until they get farther along with the body. Are there hinges & latches they can reuse? Lamps, fixtures, seats, dash pieces, etc? I don't think they can figure all that out until they have the bodies figured out.

I think the basics of your idea is a good one, get the parts list sorted as soon as possible, even before the car is ready for sale, so people that want to can get a jump on their builds. The sooner these cars hit the streets the sooner the floodgates will open on people outside this community looking to buy.

I just think that day is a lot later than sooner (based on how much left to do to get there).

[Vman7]

Well I have to say from the page before and this thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3572-Sneak-Peek-of-Project-818-Concept-Model-1-of-4

I am really excited! I can't express in words.......so I will express my excitement through graphics.

[BipDBo]

Dave,
I have a question about the target weight. I would think that not all trims of the 818 would weigh the exact same. I would think that the track version would weigh a but less than the road going version, especially if it is missing a roof, doors and a windshield. I would guess that the road and high mileage versions would also have more interior trim and possibly a radio, heat, maybe even A/C? If so equipped, the WRX turbo and intercooler system would also add some weight. Granted, the track version might have a cage that would add back some weight. This begs the question, does the 818kg target apply to all trims, or just one that is "bare bones?" Could we possibly see a road going version that weighs 818 kg, but a track version that weighs even less?

[Ks2]

Kind of off topic, but if you're really concerned about oil warm up temps, you can get a heating pad designed for people in the frozen north to not require block heaters. Set it on a timer for 15-30 minutes before you leave in the morning and you'll have an engine (and transmission if you get a heater big enough for that too) that's nearly at temp right at the start. Makes for one happy engine.

https://www.subarugenuineparts.com/product_info.php?cPath=33_49&products_id=65

30$ super easy to install and works like a charm

[Dave Smith]

Dave,
I have a question about the target weight. I would think that not all trims of the 818 would weigh the exact same. I would think that the track version would weigh a but less than the road going version, especially if it is missing a roof, doors and a windshield. I would guess that the road and high mileage versions would also have more interior trim and possibly a radio, heat, maybe even A/C? If so equipped, the WRX turbo and intercooler system would also add some weight. Granted, the track version might have a cage that would add back some weight. This begs the question, does the 818kg target apply to all trims, or just one that is "bare bones?" Could we possibly see a road going version that weighs 818 kg, but a track version that weighs even less?

Good question. Obviously the trim will affetc the car pretty substantially. I recall Jesper's (Dir of Engineering) Mk3 weighed about 150 lbs more than "average" Mk3 due to add ons like a huge stereo system, abs brakes, soft top and other stuff. With respect to the 818 we see weights between 1600 (Jim major eye twitch as he races right now at watkins glen and doesnt know why), and maybe close to 2,000 lbs hard top, major changes in running gear, etc. BUT the core 818 roadster will not fail the weight target and we have some cool tricks up our sleeve on the composites side to keep it honest and within the goal.

[BipDBo]

Good question. Obviously the trim will affetc the car pretty substantially. I recall Jesper's (Dir of Engineering) Mk3 weighed about 150 lbs more than "average" Mk3 due to add ons like a huge stereo system, abs brakes, soft top and other stuff. With respect to the 818 we see weights between 1600 (Jim major eye twitch as he races right now at watkins glen and doesnt know why), and maybe close to 2,000 lbs hard top, major changes in running gear, etc. BUT the core 818 roadster will not fail the weight target and we have some cool tricks up our sleeve on the composites side to keep it honest and within the goal.

My mouth is watering.

[Draco-REX]

Good question. Obviously the trim will affetc the car pretty substantially. I recall Jesper's (Dir of Engineering) Mk3 weighed about 150 lbs more than "average" Mk3 due to add ons like a huge stereo system, abs brakes, soft top and other stuff. With respect to the 818 we see weights between 1600 (Jim major eye twitch as he races right now at watkins glen and doesnt know why), and maybe close to 2,000 lbs hard top, major changes in running gear, etc. BUT the core 818 roadster will not fail the weight target and we have some cool tricks up our sleeve on the composites side to keep it honest and within the goal.
If a stripped down 818 (no top, no radio, minimalist interior) can approach 1600lbs, I'll... I don't know... probably lose the top of my head as my grin reaches all the way around my skull.

*plays with numbers*

Oh wow... 500 hp/ton with a 400 crank hp motor.

*collapses into a grinning, drooling pile of flesh*

[Ks2]

i am under the impression with some well spent money you could shave even wieght, a lightwieght battery and very light rims would be a nice start

[ScottKoschwitz]

The performance potential of something that light sounds great. Frankly, many who have experience with only modern cars probably have never driven something that light, short of a race car. Hell, my '09 VW GTI is about 3,100 pounds (I still don't understand why it is that heavy). With 200 hp, it's almost too fast for the road, meaning when you put your foot into it, you're at 80 mph before you know it and have to reign it in before you get into too much trouble.

[Draco-REX]

i am under the impression with some well spent money you could shave even wieght, a lightwieght battery and very light rims would be a nice start
Even better spent money:

This:
http://www.jasonmasseymedia.com/wp-content/gallery/9-18-11-ovr-rallyx-nat-chall/IMG_2447.JPG

Is started by this:
http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//N3582E/large/2050099_alg_u11_pri_larg.jpg

And it costs less than $40, and I can palm it in one hand.

[Ks2]

i didnt say it had to be alot.... more then one drag car nearby me is lightwieght thanks to a hole saw...

[kach22i]

Have you guys seen the spy shots the Wookie (David) posted today?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3671-SHHH!-I-m-at-FFR-today-10-01-2011-WITH-A-CAMERA!

[Draco-REX]

Have you guys seen the spy shots the Wookie (David) posted today?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3671-SHHH!-I-m-at-FFR-today-10-01-2011-WITH-A-CAMERA!
I like the flares on the rear wheel arches. They offer perfect "Cut here" lines for pocket flares to cover wide, low offset wheels. :)

[Draco-REX]

Something has occurred to me. I know they have 4 or 5 designs to reveal at SEMA. But they also have a full-scale model they are building. Would they have gone through all that effort if it was only a 1 in 4 chance they'd use the body?

[thebeerbaron]

Something has occurred to me. I know they have 4 or 5 designs to reveal at SEMA. But they also have a full-scale model they are building. Would they have gone through all that effort if it was only a 1 in 4 chance they'd use the body?

I think yes. I believe the scale was a function of the way it was built/carved/designed and possibly the materials.

[Silvertop]

I think yes. I believe the scale was a function of the way it was built/carved/designed and possibly the materials.

I think you are right about that. They WOULD build it full scale even if there was only a 1-in-4 chance of production. But I think the odds are better than 1-in-4. It is my personal belief that at least 3 of the 4 cars currently being modeled are destined for production, unless they are received poorly at the reveal. The big question is which one will they build FIRST?

Incidentally, the conspiracy theorist in me believes that there are really 5 models currently being made, with the X-818-R being #5. Of course, my believing it doesn't make it so..........

[David Hodgkins]

I believe another reason why they created a full size model was to study what the proportions look like when reduced to 1/4 scale. By studying how it translates from full size to 1/4 scale, it will help them learn what to expect when they translate the 1/4 scale to full size. For example, a side air intake might look good in quarter scale, but look oversized when blown up. By taking known measurments of the full size model and reducing them, and then comparing how they look against the other 1/4 scale models, they will be better able to predict how the full size model will look without going through the expense of creating the full size model.

:)

[BipDBo]

I'm curious about the planned engine orientation for the high mpg model. I imagine that it would be very difficult for the West Philly groud to shoehorn in a GTI into an 818 in the longitudianal arrangment. This brings up the question, if the 818 could accomodate a transverse diesel, what about other transverse engine options. I know that this has been brought up before. I'm just daydreaming with the thought of an ultra lightweight, 400+ hp Hartley V8, or even a lighter weight, ultra-cheap, 200 hp Hayabusa 4 cylinder.

Also, the West Philly "EVX GT" had an electric motor on the front wheels with regenerative braking. Is the 818 being designed with that as a possibility? Since I'm just day dreaming here, and money is of no regard in this dreamland, I'm imagining a 2000 lb 818 with 400+ hp on the back wheels with an 8 kw*hr battery driving an electric motor with about 100 hp to the front wheels. That would be an awesome hybrid.

[Justen]

OK Dave, I am just about ready to order a kit right now. I don't want/need to wait for your final body design array, I like what I have seen so far and Factory Five has long since earned my trust. Let's forget about the body designs for the moment and concentrate on finishing the chassis design and putting together a useable build parts list and build instructions so that those of us who feel as I do can start now. Later you can show us the body alternatives available. I am assuming that the chassis pick-up points for the body will work for each of the design alternatives, right? If yes, what are we waiting for? If not, I womder why not? I want to source my subi donor now, accumulate parts and start wrenching. I want my 818 however it is pronounced!

Many of us feel the same way, but the chassis may change before it is finalized and there will be different roll bar options as well for each body style.

[D2W]

Incidentally, the conspiracy theorist in me believes that there are really 5 models currently being made, with the X-818-R being #5. Of course, my believing it doesn't make it so..........

By X-818-R I'm assuming you mean Xabier's race version. I could be wrong but to me his race version is his regular car, lowered/short windshield/louvers on the rear cowl, and a paint job. There may be more, but these are items anybody could do for the same effect.

[Silvertop]

By X-818-R I'm assuming you mean Xabier's race version. I could be wrong but to me his race version is his regular car, lowered/short windshield/louvers on the rear cowl, and a paint job. There may be more, but these are items anybody could do for the same effect.

Yes, I'm referring to Xabier's race version. And you are right, it wouldn't take very much to transform the street version into the 818-R. Which is precisely the point. It means that it also wouldn't be all that difficult to prepare a 1/4 scale 818-R model alongside the street model that we already KNOW is being prepared. And we know that Dave Smith is particularly partial to the race version.

I'm not really saying that they have actually done that. It's probable that they have NOT. But they COULD have. A lot of folks would probably like to see that done up in a 1/4 scale model. And it's fun to speculate. :o

[thebeerbaron]

It means that it also wouldn't be all that difficult to prepare a 1/4 scale 818-R model alongside the street model that we already KNOW is being prepared.

Beg to differ. Having done some half-assed clay modeling (and having a decent art/clay background), I can tell you emphatically that the RISD model was not easy to prepare, so preparing a race version wouldn't be either.

[Silvertop]

Beg to differ. Having done some half-assed clay modeling (and having a decent art/clay background), I can tell you emphatically that the RISD model was not easy to prepare, so preparing a race version wouldn't be either.

There you go trying to confuse me with FACTS!

[ddorrer]

Dave,

The West Philly High School Popular Mechanics article mentioned, "The TDI technology in this car is slated to become part of the new Factory Five 818 product line-up." Will this be an option in Gen 1?

[Twinspool]

Chevy is adding a diesel powertrain to the cruze as well. More high MPG oil burners FTW!

[Dave Smith]

Still focusing on the body shape and the inveil to see which goes first on the mil. As far as running gear and parts list, that is not a bad idea and we are probably closer than most would think to an accurate BOM and donor/subaru parts list

Lastly, the diesel tech from west philly was discussed at length with Simon at the Open House as he was anxious to plug this into a car (the 818) with less frontal area, lower coefficient of drag and a much lower vehicle weight. I committed to Simon that he would get one of the very first 818 chassis for his powerplant which is TDI 4 cylinder with audi trans. His very enthusiastic predictions are 75 mpg in regular driving so IF one body design (coupe) can deliver a low drag number, low frontal area, and meet the 1800 lb weight target... then all we have to do is deliver good weather sealing (HUGE effort there) then one variant can be a build-it-yourself high mileage capable car that can be built for a reasonable cost. Even more exciting is the R&D access we have with Ford Racing (I just tonight spoke to one of the managers there about a variant of the ecoboost four and three that Ford wants us to look at with the firm belief that the direct injected gas turbo motors they are still developing can meet or exceed the tdi plant).

Exciting stuff, but we have been careful to stick to claims we can meet based on our actual data and experience as well as stick to nodes we've promised (next up is model and body selection).

The 818 must be our best new product launch by a log scale... it is that important.

oh, one more thing about the body shapes. It will be a giant slayer and the shape MUST not go to production unless the great majority of people who see it in person have their hair burst into flames the second they see it.

[riptide motorsport]

The Carma is right with this one.......I can feel it............Steven

[thebeerbaron]

It will be a giant slayer and the shape MUST not go to production unless the great majority of people who see it in person have their hair burst into flames the second they see it.

Have you seen my hair? It's a wooly, shaggy mess most of the time. Impervious to water and oil, traps sand and grit. Occasionally a small child gets lost in there. You'd better have some freaking napalm ready... :)

[Cooluser23]

I always liked Direct injected motors. They have a cool diesel like sound and great low end torque (especially with turbos)

Motors I like:
Audi TFSI 4-banger
Mazdaspeed MZR 4-banger
GM Ecotec LNF 4-banger

[Mad Dog]

http://www.factoryfive.com/images/ffforum/818concepts.jpg
Spy shot of concept 1 roadster and concept 2 coupe scale models.

Jim - Dave said it was ok. Sorry!

[Steve91T]

Wow! Thanks for the pictures! Can I ask about the wheels? They look great with what looks to be 20's, but what will they look like with a more reasonable wheel like 17's?

[PhyrraM]

As long as the O.D. is close to the OEM Subaru size, the overall looks shouldn't impacted too much.

And, yes Steve, these look better...but they don't have a "body" for comparision. ;)

I'm particularly curious about the blue car. I pretty much hated the contest entry drawings of it.

[D2W]

The blue car is Rodney Olmos's design. (second place winner). I really liked it before, can't wait to see the whole thing:)

Dave, how long before we get to see them all?

[Nelff]

my opinion...

LOVE the rear of the Roadster, it needs to be a coupe.

Hate the rear of the Coupe. For me the inset eyes are beady and the square undertray looks out of place. Everything else up to the tail light panel looks great!

Like I said, opinion. Everyone will have one...

[thebeerbaron]

I find the blue car intriguing.

[Dave Smith]

The fourth model is being made... Ive been very careful to NOT release full shots of any of the cars as I am very interested in seeing them stand side by side and all enjoy a fair shake. I dont see any downsides since we've reduced the time (with a great new supplier) to go from concept to scaled CAD file to scale model greatly. Also, the important thing to realize is that the tech behind the body shaping HAD to be all new with the 818. The product goal of multiple bodies, involving the community, and the speed to market ALL these things required an all-new approach to the classic challenge of shaping, plug making, mold making, mold refining, and production. I could not be happier since the pace has involved the secure and successful accomplishment of the first half of the body shaping/making process that is all new to us. This patient path will deliver a way to make shapes quickly and purpose chassis in different directions. I was emphatic that this project take the company in a new direction. Still, at the end of the day, the car will not be a success, no matter how well engineered the cahssis is, no matter how fast it is, no matter how easy it is to build, no matter how affordable it is... In the end it HAS to be a drop-dead gorgeous exotic car. No-one builds their own car to be boring. Have faith that I will flush all models down the toilet if they dont deliver jaw-dropping looks.

[Doc_FFR]

The blue one is amazing. Olmos's design is truly unlike anything else on the road.

[olpro]

One suggestion, make the models the same color if you don't want color to distort the results when you show them against each other.

[Join]

I find the blue car intriguing.
+1 to that!

[Dave Smith]

We discussed this at length (colors all the same) and felt that the submissions were made in some colors and the cars would be boring if they were all the same color. The downside is exactly what you said, as it may skew the results and not keep the evals on even footing. We still have time to make the change once we see em all together. good suggestion.

also, the idea of beer baron running around with flaming dreadlocks is classic... dont worry, we'll put the flames out after a good run and some video...

[thebeerbaron]

Dave: its a 'fro, not dreadlocks, but I'd be happy for you to light it on fire.

Olpro: is there a universal color for models in this stage? Something that shows off the curves without blowing highlights or saturating shadows?

[olpro]

Since you are going to be presenting these proposals on line, it is fairly easy to change colors for the bake-off in Photoshop.
It isn't always easy since one car may look great in black while another one looks terrible. Picking a common color for all will not present each one in its ideal color. Color preference is a big issue however. Every such marketing study I have participated in, and there have been dozens, always ends up with silver cars, which is admittedly rather boring. Personally I hate these marketing focus groups but every company out there, with multi-millions of dollars at risk, relies on them - and I really can't blame them.
You are still ahead to get valid comparative results rather than entertaining people.

[PhyrraM]

Is the no-paint gelcoat still a goal of the project? If so, then FFR may not even offer each body in every color.

Even though it's my least favorite (by far), I've got a soft spot for Olmos's because it was the most daring and out-of-the-box. I can appreciate that. Some of the most memorable production cars have been love-it or hate-it designs. I personally loved Marc Senger's designs.

[thebeerbaron]

Is the no-paint gelcoat still a goal of the project? If so, then FFR may not even offer each body in every color.

Actually, there's kind of a tangental point to that: if we knew what color the gelcoat is going to be (the other FFR cars are red), that wouldn't be a bad place to start. That way people would know what it would look like out of the box, so to speak.


Some of the most memorable production cars have been love-it or hate-it designs.

You've hit the nail on the head. To light hair on fire you've got to push boundaries, not make a smoothie out of elements that have worked in the past. There are other nails I'd like to see addressed (what is the language of lightweight?) but that one is a good starting point. I'd personally like to throttle Mr. Olmos for choosing to render his car in black, which hides a lot of detail, but of the four, I see it as having the most potential. Is it actually there? Gotta wait and see.

[D2W]

Dave, somebody else already suggested it so I'm just repeating. When you have the unveil is it possible to have a 1/4 scale person with the cars so it is easier to judge proportions?