818 Project Updates From Dave

[2KWIK4U]

While I like Xabiers car alot the black one looks more like a production car which is a good thing. I think when we try to get too small then they get more toy like and look more "kit car" to me.

[apexanimal]

That's basically what I said in another thread. As far as which version to release first, why not release the track and street model at the same time? I have to assume that they will be relatively similar. Would it be that difficult?

agreed...

one for the lower percentage that will actually buy the track-beast, but EVERYONE wants... wings, lightness, all the goodies...

then right next to it, the roadster/road-going version... more features and comfort stuff, minus some wings/ducts maybe, but with the essence still intact...


i think this will be very important...

[Rockraven]

My take:

Car #1 is still my favorite. Not sure about the headlight changes, but looking forward to the final product.

Car #2 looks like a Peugeot concept unveiled at Geneva. Not a bad thing, but it's pretty out there.

Car #3 looks better than I thought it would. It's a contender.

Car #4 screams "kit car". It looks like it's trying, and failing, to mimick a 10 year old production car.

[SccrMan13]

I wonder now why they used different colors on each when we are trying to compare them. All of them should have been done in silver as it shows the lines the best.

[Vman7]

How about something like this for Jim's car for the front and rear.

This was part of my design, but I didn't get it done in time for the contest.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2257&d=1307466482

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2253&d=1307466475

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2254&d=1307466477

[Ophitoxaemia]

Watched the video. Was glad to see most of the designs looking like cars and not cartoons.

Very much enjoyed explanations about the process around which car to build, trends in the market, and engineering considerations. Thanks,

James
FFR 1630

[SccrMan13]

Vman7 those are great looking the front looks like a lotus that got it on with a porsche. The second rear looks great just need to widen the canopy so that the roll bar can be integrated.

[Rockraven]

Vman,

As I told you before, this is the best of all of them. Jim should use your design, without changing a thing.

[VTX]

Vman,

I think your design looks great. Very much like the 918. Hopefully that isn't a problem because I like it a lot.

[riptide motorsport]

yep throw out Jims FFR design and add vmans! I like Xabier first then the black second, the blue looks too much like a praying mantus look in the front and a bit futuristic overall, which screams "Kitcar" to me...

[GUNS]

Well I have to admit, I think I like Vman's the best. To me that's what a mid engine sports car should look like. The only thing I would change is the headlights so it doesn't look so much like a porche carrera gt or 918.

[kach22i]

How about something like this for Jim's car for the front and rear.
This was part of my design, but I didn't get it done in time for the contest.

I like it better than the Porsche 918 in some ways, but maybe just a little too similar for comfort.

[3000gttom]

wow, vman that looks amazing, front is reminiscent of the gtm, i hope your design gets a chance

[Fast818]

Xabiers car is the one I like best.

Needs to be aTARGA for ALL weather's, top off for sunny days and top on for others
(snow,rain,sun burn :-))and Girl friends hair hehheh)

As an everyday car not just a garage queen or track car this car needs to be driven and SEEN (seeing is selling..!!!)

These features will appeal to the widest market generating the most sale. Fun for all

[Kalstar]

I was able to go today. There was only about two dozen people there, lower turn out than I thought there would be, anyway the photos do no justice to any of them. I believe FFR got it exactly right with third 1st,2nd,3rd place finishers.

That said......

Winner looks like a mini M6 and has the most production look, the color is also charcoal gray, not black. Awesome in person!

The blue one is over the top but I really.... really... like it, a lot.

Red one, also one I would put in my garage in a heart beat, but it is behind the other two.

Silver one, no interest at all. I know they put in a lot of effort into it, but I think it missed the mark.

[imom]

I didn't see the 4 models in person...so maybe there will be better perspective about the 4 cars shown. I stated earlier I liked Jim's car and first place black car...there's dozens of post for their preference from other members.... so the opinions vary quite a bit. I don't see a clear favorite...maybe it's just my interpretation... But do any of these cars make me want to sell my first born or have my hair on fire? No... I say that will all respect to F5. I'm very excited about the GTM and the 818... The GTM is too costly for me, but 818 is for everyone and still love the concept of low cost exotic that will handle better than cars 5 times its price and do it with great fuel economy.

If I had to choose to buy from the 4 cars, then the black #1 car as either a targa or coupe would do it for me. Jim's silver car I believe is nice too (as a targa or coupe please)...even if not so many people liked it.

Would be very interested to see a car like vman7 concept rear targa top picture combine with the front of the black #1 car. vman7, could you also post a side view and more pictures of the whole car actually? I like the second rear picture where it seems very possible to have a targa top.

[Vman7]

Thanks for the nice comments! Here is a link to the thread on my design.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?2180-Vantage-Design-Project

Just remember though, I really never finished the side view, the front and rear areas never got finished to reflect the front and rear views. I also wasn't real happy with the side vent under the door area, looks cool but really looked a bit large for the overall look.

David

[Silvertop]

......................The first place competition design I always thought looked like it was a beautiful car in the wrong competition.

That should be the next Nissan Z car, not a super light kit car monster killer IMHO. I think my thoughts, in some for or another are shared and that's why it still has so little votes.

Agree. I always thought that it resembled the currrent Z-Car. It does have kind of a"production" but still sexy look to it. Maybe this is why I think it might be a good choice for the MPG car, which is more likely to be widely used as a daily driver.

[GUNS]

I'm anxious to hear from Dave on what the next step is. Are they looking for a design to press forward with and then tweak it based on community inputs, or are they looking for our favorite design and then start with production ASAP? I have a feeling they are going to pick a design and then adjust it as necessary to get the response they are looking for. At least that's what I hope they are doing because in IMHO none of the designs right now are perfect and production ready.

[ScottKoschwitz]

I asked during the webcast yesterday how to submit input to FFR, and was told the forum was the way to do it. Unfortunately, we currently have three threads going where people are expressing their opinions on the designs, their preferences for what they would like the car to have, and whihc models should be built first. That's a lot for FFR to go through. Perhaps one "official" thread for suggestions?

[kach22i]

Perhaps one "official" thread for suggestions?
I've been using this one (see below) for that purpose.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3917-1-4-scale-model-feedback

[16g-95gsx]

So maybe I'm blind but where are the models posted? I wasn't as to make the webcast.

[adesilva]

Some pictures are posted in this thread as well as I believe two others. You can also go to Factory Fives website and under their most recent update they have the entire webcast up that you can watch. It is 45 mins long but worth the watch.

[Draco-REX]

So maybe I'm blind but where are the models posted? I wasn't as to make the webcast.
Earlier in this thread, also in the 1/4 Scale model discussion thread, and the poll thread. You can also go to the U Stream website, search for Factory Five, click Videos, and see a recording of the webcast.

[Inthenameofweez]

how about something like this for jim's car for the front and rear.

This was part of my design, but i didn't get it done in time for the contest.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2257&d=1307466482


Yes!!!!!!!!! Apply this front end to Jim's already amazing design. I think the headlights, front bumper, and all 4 fenders of his model are missing the mark of what we're wanting to buy...

[BrandonDrums]

Agree. I always thought that it resembled the currrent Z-Car. It does have kind of a"production" but still sexy look to it. Maybe this is why I think it might be a good choice for the MPG car, which is more likely to be widely used as a daily driver.

You know what, it would be great for the MPG car. It doesn't look spritely but it looks sexy and perhaps better for aero than cooling. I've been worried I slammed the design which was not my intent. I think the 1st place car looks amazing, just not in line with the 'spirit' of a street/track 818. But a sexy high mileage car with great handling...could be a perfect match.

I also didn't mean to slam the FFR cocktail silver car. Also looks great and I'd put it in my garage as well, I just don't think it has the singular design concept and refined looks of the other 3. A couple tweaks and it could easily be there though.

[Duratec7]

Dave, thank you for putting on the unveil on Saturday. It was great to see what has been going into the new project.

Having seen the models now I do like Nuphone's design better in 3D than I did on paper, but my favorite is still Xabier's design. the Olmos design is just too cartoonish for my taste, makes me think of speed racer. I like what Jim has done melding various elements together as well.

vman7, too bad you didn't get those in on time, I think they would have had a good chance of placing.

[adesilva]

I just stopped by the showroom and sadly the models were no longer there so i couldn't take anymore pictures for you guys.

I may have just come at a bad time though because I didn't see anyone in the office either.

I am sure we will see more at sema though :)

It was also eary to be there with it so quiet compared to open houses i have gone to lol

[vozproto]

Yes. We'll save the live stream so it can be viewed later on. Please remember, it's going to be shot from my iPhone so it won't necessarily be the smoothest of videos, but I'll try to keep my hands as steady as possible and not move around too much.

Hey Maddog... I wanna go through and watch that stream again.
Where can we find the hosted copy?

[Admiral Doom]

Its on the ustream site

[shinn497]

I would like to pose this question for dave. It is pretty clear that, since these designs are based stringently on their respective artists' visions, they are made with practicality in mind. Given that in mind, what sort of modifications can we expect to the design for practicality reasons.

Especially I am wondering what sort of changes would be made for aero purposes. I kind of want a spoiler and hood vents.

[Dave Smith]

Good question. There is a reality gap between concept drawings and reality. In this case, I actually think the reality of the designs is BETTER than how they have been presented, and perhaps, when details, scale and reality of space is seen, the cars will be much more dramatic. This happened in the GTM project and the mock-up was nowhere near the drama of the completed car. Still, I need the car to be dramatic times 1000, so we are going to have to do more work.

[Oppenheimer]

...there are certain things you will need to overcome, the most significant is the perceived image of the kit car industry. ...F5 has the unenviable position not only educating these new customers as to the quality of F5 products, but overcoming industry misconceptions and differentiate itself from F5's competitors. Let's be blunt here; the majority of the kit car business is based on copying other designs. ....The only way to overcome this is IMHO, is to come out with something visually fresh and unique and, of the 4 designs presented, the Olmos design has it in spades.

I agree with a lot of what you said. But another kit-car misconception that has to be overcome is original, but cartoonish designs, often associated with low quality designs built on VW Beetle chassis'. My concern is of the 4 designs, the Olmos is the one most likely to evoke such thoughts. FFR will have more difficulty overcoming kit-car misconceptions if the car reminds people of those hideous things from the 70's.

IMO to be successfull to wider audience the car needs to avoid cartoonish at all cost.

[Niburu]

Still, I need the car to be dramatic times 1000, so we are going to have to do more work.
I don't know if this excites me or frightens me, but the car will no doubt be 20% cooler now.

[bbjones121]

Defined creases and lines like an F-22 raptor, lamborghini sesto elemento, lancia stratos will eventually look like a lotus esprit, ferrari 288, detomaso pantera do to us now. I think all those old cars still look great in person now. I think Olmos's design has some great creases and lines.

[Horhay]

I need the car to be dramatic times 1000, so we are going to have to do more work.

Hmm, this scares me. Hopefully there will be a body option that is more Kate Beckinsale than Jenna Jameson.

[shinn497]

Good question. There is a reality gap between concept drawings and reality. In this case, I actually think the reality of the designs is BETTER than how they have been presented, and perhaps, when details, scale and reality of space is seen, the cars will be much more dramatic. This happened in the GTM project and the mock-up was nowhere near the drama of the completed car. Still, I need the car to be dramatic times 1000, so we are going to have to do more work.


Does this mean you have begun work on more realistic designs? You said that, since thay have all been computerized going to full scale mockup wont take much time. What sort of time table are we looking at, more importantly, how can we the community aid in this. I am also curious, can you get jim to the forums? We all panned his design, but he is the authority. I would really like to know what he and beer baron discussed.

I saw your other comment about none if the designs being there yet and I agree. In addition, I also see the k-1 attack as a good model to surpass. That car is edgy and serious. However, I look at its price, engineering issues, and performance and I know the 818 can beat it.

** forgive any typos I post from my nintendo 3ds**

[PhyrraM]

Hmm, this scares me. Hopefully there will be a body option that is more Kate Beckinsale than Jenna Jameson.

This pretty much defines the problem.

Not only is everyone lobbying for thier favorite actress, they are offering advice on how to make them more attractive! Some have gone so far as to say the equivalent of "I'm not going to buy it unless it's a 6' redhead w/an irish accent and 34Cs".

Relax folks, Dave has promised us a Hollywood quality looker. And that is certainly better than most have ever had in thier driveway (or bed). To limit one's vision now is really only going to keep you from enjoying an 818 eventually.

[wooward]

Some have gone so far as to say the equivalent of "I'm not going to buy it unless it's a 6' redhead w/an irish accent and 34Cs".

This is true and I am one of them. I'm not saying that everything has to be exactly what I want. I'm just saying that overall, if there's something that I find to be too off-putting, then I'm not going to be buying an 818. It's my money and life and nothing is forcing me to buy an 818 kit. I'd love to get one but I'm not going to if the end product to me, just isn't worth it.

That being said, the only really off-putting items to me are the Xabier "Arch" and the Olmos design. I'm thinking the first body is prob going to be Xabier with dual hoops. I say this because although many of the people on this forum enjoy the Olmos design, I think world-wide the design will not appeal to the masses.

[Draco-REX]

Dave, Great response. It's good to know that you guys are listening with a serious ear. And I appreciate your willingness to hit the brakes and rethink your approach even this close to SEMA. The fact that you don't just want an amazing looking car, but *demand* one gives me high hopes for the 818.

But....

Don't give up on the designs too easily. There's an inherent problem with what you're trying to accomplish at this moment. As a car's design approaches "hair ignition temperature" its ability to polarize people opinions goes up as well. Any design that will make one person stop in their tracks and say "WOW! That is awesome!" will just as easily make another stop and say "WOW! That is ugly!" It is VERY VERY difficult to get both of those people to agree on a particular car's visual appeal, because different things tick different boxes in them. There are only three solutions that I can see.

1. Make a car that's not *quite* at hair-ignition and try to get a "low smolder" out of most everyone.

2. Go for a design that makes half the viewers explode into flame, and hope that it will grow on the other half.

3. The hardest option is to truly design a work of art that appeals to everyone. Aston Martin has somehow done this, but very few can.

Though I would love to see #3 happen and end up with a car that could rub shoulders with the DBS at the concourse, I think #2 might be the best bet. Polarize the public to get them talking. Because I truly believe that a great car can be beautiful or ugly, but NEVER EVER boring!

[Inthenameofweez]

/\This.

Don't give up. I'm not sure of how many on the forum will actually be at SEMA, but I WILL be and I want to see all of these in person at reasonable angles. Please bring all of the 1/4 scale models.

This will be a success no matter what. Just keeping having fun with it!!!!

[onyx_riddle]

How about something like this for Jim's car for the front and rear.

This was part of my design, but I didn't get it done in time for the contest.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2257&d=1307466482


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2253&d=1307466475

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2254&d=1307466477

I quoted you just because, for what it's worth, these are the best representations of how I pictured the 818 to become and I think people should have to see them again. Excellent work. I love it.

[David]

How about something like this for Jim's car for the front and rear.

This was part of my design, but I didn't get it done in time for the contest.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2257&d=1307466482

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2253&d=1307466475

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2254&d=1307466477

I freaking love it! I'd buy that...

David

[SccrMan13]

I would to its a poor mans version of the porsche 918, and since the vast majority of people will never see one of those on the road why not go for this design

[bbjones121]

I prefer shawn's design the most, but this one is up there as well. Too bad it wasn't submitted in time.

[bromikl]

Nobody ever said that only design contestants could be manufactured. The concept competition is over. It was merely a tool to get some marketing press and some great designs to work with. (I really don't have a problem with that. Clever idea, Dave.) Jim's design wasn't submitted (to my knowledge) before the contest deadline either.

[Oppenheimer]

Nobody ever said that only design contestants could be manufactured. ... Jim's design wasn't submitted (to my knowledge) before the contest deadline either.

Good point. He was one of the judges, so I assume he couldn't have submitted if he wanted to. I really, REALLY like this Vman design, always have.

I am advocating FFR going through the 700 designs, plus a few like this that didn't get submitted, sort out the ones that aren't buildable, that won't fit the chassis or fit a wookie (or can't feasibly be made to fit), then pare that list down to like their top 10, then let us vote on those. If there are clear winners, then model those, and we do this refinement process on those. Why were the top 3 contest winners automatically chosen to model?

[onyx_riddle]

This car is my wallpaper on my cellphone :)

[adesilva]

I will admit that Vmans design is gorgeous, its certainly one of the better designs I have seen to this point. I think the rear end is perfect in every way but their is something about the front that feels too tame to me (compared to the rear).

[onyx_riddle]

I will admit that Vmans design is gorgeous, its certainly one of the better designs I have seen to this point. I think the rear end is perfect in every way but their is something about the front that feels too tame to me (compared to the rear).

Maybe just a little extra hint of "hey there's no engine in here" would spice it up. The headlights are just a hair more tame than the rear. I'll agree. Still the best 818 yet.

Also.. I think a model would do it wonders. The Carerra GT is anything but tame up front and this shares some characteristics.

[Vman7]

Thanks for all the positive comments!:)

I am going to post this here in this thread and the Vantage Design Project thread as well.

First let me explain how the design came about. First I worked on the side view, except the rear and front parts on the side view. Then I worked on the rear, then the front. Once I got that done when I went back to the side I never got to finish the front and rear parts on the side view to reflect the front and rear views. As I looked at the over all view the side vents (mid section on bottom and vent behind door) just didn’t flow with the front and rear views. So I didn’t have time to change the side view mid section as well. If I remember right I think at this point I was down to less then a day before the deadline.

Now with all the comments of late, I am debating if I should at least finish the coupe version. The only thing is I really don’t want to work on it if it doesn’t have any influence on the people in the community and Dave Smith and FFR. It would just be a waste of time for me.

I did for a short time a day or so ago but the front and rear views in the 818 Sample Model 4 thread just as and idea, and Dave Smith posted a few times after that, but with nothing said about the front or rear views, so I took them out, not wanting to hi-jack the thread.

So not sure what I am going to do with my design at this point.

Again thanks for all the positive comments!

David

[onyx_riddle]

Thanks for all the positive comments!:)

I am going to post this here in this thread and the Vantage Design Project thread as well.

First let me explain how the design came about. First I worked on the side view, except the rear and front parts on the side view. Then I worked on the rear, then the front. Once I got that done when I went back to the side I never got to finish the front and rear parts on the side view to reflect the front and rear views. As I looked at the over all view the side vents (mid section on bottom and vent behind door) just didn’t flow with the front and rear views. So I didn’t have time to change the side view mid section as well. If I remember right I think at this point I was down to less then a day before the deadline.

Now with all the comments of late, I am debating if I should at least finish the coupe version. The only thing is I really don’t want to work on it if it doesn’t have any influence on the people in the community and Dave Smith and FFR. It would just be a waste of time for me.

I did for a short time a day or so ago but the front and rear views in the 818 Sample Model 4 thread just as and idea, and Dave Smith posted a few times after that, but with nothing said about the front or rear views, so I took them out, not wanting to hi-jack the thread.

So not sure what I am going to do with my design at this point.

Again thanks for all the positive comments!

David

I noticed your posts were m.i.a. I thought it was honorable to delete them. I personally believe this design is good enough that your ideas will somehow be used in some shape or form, regardless of how much they've already developed. It's one of the most well-rounded designs. When I saw your pictures in the thread I immediately pictured Dave seeing them and thinking "not so good timing..." It really is awesome. Good ideas tend to stick around.

[Wayne Presley]

Vman's car is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Olli]

I'm going to jump on the Vman band wagen ! Vman's design really is the only one that makes me say "I would build that!"

Olli

[David]

Vman,

Honestly, while I like the red and the black car, your front and rear design is very very nice. Its got a bit of a Carerra GT without being a copy. Its sexy, but not over the top. The proportions seem to be very balanced. It is unique and has the HoF reaction that Dave asks about. Im not a Pontiac type styling guy :D... I like sexy/hot without trying to hard.

If FFR didnt take both the front and rear, I think as a good compromise, the front alone might work pretty well on Jims car. The rear is quite nice on his car, and the front of your car seems as though it would fit well with the design.

David

[Vman7]

I have been working on the side view for a few hours now, working on getting everything to flow together. I reworked the whole door/vent area.

[balddog818]

wow! vmans design is gorgeous!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Xusia]

I too like Vman's design. I had previously posted I liked Xabier's design the best, but that was because I didn't think Vman's was an option. I still like Xabier's design, but I like Vman's better.

[NoSkillz]

When i think about the 818 sliding through a corner with a straight piped WRX engine bouncing off the rev limiter VMan's design fits, perfectly.

[bhoakes]

My First Post to this Site... I must say If Vman's design was/is chosen .. My order would already be placed .... that is if the car can seat a 6'4" Wookie
can't wait to see how this one develops...

Thanks Vman and spending so much time on this !!!!!

Brian

[demetri]

My First Post to this Site...

Same here but Rodney's design is lighting a fire under my a$$ and it's speaking to me in the unspoken language of lovers.

[thothtp]

I felt compelled to make an account and post just because of this.

The new tweaks that Rodney has been making to his design in this thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3962-Design-Model-O-s-Feedback-and-Suggestions/page4 have made his the absolute without a doubt "hair on fire" best option IMO. That thing has the drama and excitement and uniqueness that people are looking for imo.

I mean look at this thing:
http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

[Gary in NJ]

A much better car then the blue car. But it is so different that it seems to be a "new" submission.

[Steve91T]

A much better car then the blue car. But it is so different that it seems to be a "new" submission.

It's just revised. Wait until Jim's design is revised. I bet most won't even think it's the same car.

Steve

[PhyrraM]

For all we know, Dave has asked Xabier or Rodney to go over Jim's base. Interesting idea, at least.......

[adesilva]

For all we know, Dave has asked Xabier or Rodney to go over Jim's base. Interesting idea, at least.......

That could be the case but I would be very surprised if Rodney was still revising his model if he knew he was only going to be helping fix Jims because that was the only model FF was ever considering making

[Oppenheimer]

Collaboration, I love it! That is a great idea. Get the contest winners and Jim into a live, online design collaboration effort. Then turn that result loose on us to comment (look how well this is working for the Rodney design). Ties the contest into the end result (as Bromkil has pointed out is important), shows the power of group effort at the same time (which Dave has said is important to him).

The individual Rodney, Xabier, etc designs could still get produced later as part of the whole 'multiple bodies' thing.

I volunteer my services if Xabier could benefit from a translator during the process :-)

[Niburu]

Dave's got alot of reading to catch up once he takes break from the SEMA festivities and takes a look at the forum.

[Flashburn]

I mean look at this thing:
http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg
Nailed it.

Edit: what would it take to get a 3d 1/4 scale with details like they did with Jim's design?
I'm assuming Rodney can supply the cad files.

[dpmdc]

In following through with the final design I would like to see more headroom. Having been down this path with a few different cars (my Lotus Elise and Diasio D962R more specifically) ingress and egress as well as comfort on the track to allow for a helmet would be a big plus for me. As most know, a Lotus requires one to be some what of a contortionist to get in and out. Asking a lady to get in a street car for night out if she is in a dress is just not going to work. 580558065807. Headroom is a deal maker / breaker for me. I learned to live with the Lotus by just removing the ragtop and hoping it didn't rain. As far as the Diasio, well it's a purpose built track car and that's just the way it is if you want to go fast. And yes, the Lotus is the only complete carbon fiber in the States.....

[bbjones121]

In following through with the final design I would like to see more headroom. Having been down this path with a few different cars (my Lotus Elise and Diasio D962R more specifically) ingress and egress as well as comfort on the track to allow for a helmet would be a big plus for me. As most know, a Lotus requires one to be some what of a contortionist to get in and out. Asking a lady to get in a street car for night out if she is in a dress is just not going to work. 580558065807. Headroom is a deal maker / breaker for me. I learned to live with the Lotus by just removing the ragtop and hoping it didn't rain. As far as the Diasio, well it's a purpose built track car and that's just the way it is if you want to go fast. And yes, the Lotus is the only complete carbon fiber in the States.....

Depends how big the misses is.

[demetri]

I mean look at this thing:


i know. ...sigh....

[coolbluelb]

^^^^Lovely^^^^
lllllllllllll lllllllllllll

[Exidous]

I felt compelled to make an account and post just because of this.

The new tweaks that Rodney has been making to his design in this thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3962-Design-Model-O-s-Feedback-and-Suggestions/page4 have made his the absolute without a doubt "hair on fire" best option IMO. That thing has the drama and excitement and uniqueness that people are looking for imo.

I mean look at this thing:
http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

I've been excited about this the whole time but NEVER have a thought HOF until I saw this.

[Mike Downs]

The thing that bugs me is that FFR left the design competition wide open with very few restrictions on body shape, etc. Then even after the 1/4 scale models are produced, then you hear that a lot of changes will have to be made to allow some of them to fit the chassis. What's up with that? I think that it would have been much better to let the designers juices flow over a somewhat more detailed set of restrictions (frame, etc.).

[RM1SepEx]

Rodney's design has changed dramatically through that thread's work! the nose is great now where the original was butt ugly and too blunt...
It still looks a bit like a comic car but it's much better...
now does it actually fit the template and wheel sizes of a stock WRX?

[Draco-REX]

Rodney's design has changed dramatically through that thread's work! the nose is great now where the original was butt ugly and too blunt...
It still looks a bit like a comic car but it's much better...
now does it actually fit the template and wheel sizes of a stock WRX?
According to Rodney, it fits the template. And a comparison of the wheelbase to wheel diameter was made which puts the wheels at 26" OD. That's less than an inch larger in diameter. The tire width in the picture is supposed to be 255.

Now granted, the WRX wheels are a touch smaller in OD and a couple inches narrower. I think it still might look odd with the stock WRX rims, but that would come down to whether the rims pictured have a super low offset purely for aesthetics, or of they meet the hubs at the planned track width. Details...

[mattster03]

Bump! Would like to hear an update from Dave as to how SEMA went? How was the reception of the new chassis? What were some overall feedback trends on Jim's body design? Any other interesting feedback?

[vozproto]

I think maybe we need to let Dave gather his thoughts after SEMA and start a new thread on what the next steps are.

...Even if they are to sequester his design folks with all the added input and start lighting people's hair on fire.

[bbjones121]

I think maybe we need to let Dave gather his thoughts after SEMA and start a new thread on what the next steps are.

...Even if they are to sequester his design folks with all the added input and start lighting people's hair on fire.

I agree. They probably should take a day or two off after SEMA. Let alone relax after the long drive.

[BrandonDrums]

I felt compelled to make an account and post just because of this.

The new tweaks that Rodney has been making to his design in this thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3962-Design-Model-O-s-Feedback-and-Suggestions/page4 have made his the absolute without a doubt "hair on fire" best option IMO. That thing has the drama and excitement and uniqueness that people are looking for imo.

I mean look at this thing:
http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

I wonder which is more work, re-doing all of Jim's car to get it up to par with some of the design contestants or just moving forward with Rodney's corrected design. Rodney fixed the width of the car to fit the template, he's doing the 3D cad work right now with the new front end. Seems like a no brainer to me, instead of basically starting from scratch on Jim's design just use what Rod Olmos has made. It's got Hair On Fire built in, no need to manifest it elsewhere.

[Steve91T]

I would be surprised if Dave doesn't get really excited over this design. I'm sure they'll be building this design, especially with all of the positive feedback.

Steve

[GUNS]

I would be surprised if Dave doesn't get really excited over this design. I'm sure they'll be building this design, especially with all of the positive feedback.

Steve

I hope this is the case.

[RM1SepEx]

I hope not, I don't want a cartoon car...

Dave will work it out to be both HOF and able to make with gel coat body panels

I want a roadster with a basic, I got caught in he rain top

I'll be making a trip to see the models soon

[wrxtacy2003]

Rodney's new updates make this my 1st choice by a long shot now.

DK

[shinn497]

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/V3_4.jpg

RODNEYO'S DESIGN

Smexy

[BrandonDrums]

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/V3_4.jpg

RODNEYO'S DESIGN

Smexy

I don't think folks need to be sayin' "Rodney's design is all not makeable and stuff" no mo'. That looks way production ready. And uber awesome.

[keys2heaven]

I can't help thinking that some other big name car company is visiting this forum and getting a lot of great ideas!

[Justen]

Rodney's new design is amazing! I really didn't like the flat front that the 1/4 scale model had but this new nose gives it a completely different look. I love it. Can't wait to see what Dave has to say about it and how this will effect Jim's design. I agree that Rodney's car looks ready and could be used as is instead of trying to adapt the nose to Jim's. I do like the instead of being able to pick your own body by making them have the same mounting points, but I do not think we will see any news on that until the panel molds themselves are being designed so we can see where it makes the most sense to put the mounting points.

[Oppenheimer]

I can't help thinking that some other big name car company is visiting this forum and getting a lot of great ideas!

Well when we see 818 design cues start showing up on production cars, we'll know that FFR, and the 818, have arrived. What people recognize as cool ends up being what looks cool. The 818 is going to be very cool, as have all FFR cars to date, but its depth of influence should be much greater (there will probably be many more of them built than previous FFR's). Once the average car guy equates 'the look' of the 818 with its cool factor, that look will then become recognized as cool (by more than just this community).

[Bobcdn]

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/VenomFront2b.jpg

First post here! Although I have been following along.

Rodney's design is the only one I would consider building.

I would prefer it as a fixed roof coupe though. I also think the front bumper needs to curve in towards the bottom on the sides and the front edge- of course loosing the splitter all together. Splitter makes it look like a 'boy racer'. More like a combination of the Konigsegg and this one. http://www.koenigsegg.com/

[ElderDragon]

I'm surprised we haven't heard anything from Dave. Rodney's design (with Shawn's in second) seem so fantastic I would have thought he would have been filled with enthusiasm?

[305mouse]

He has posted in a couple of other threads. I think he's still geting caught up.

[Inthenameofweez]

5999

HEY DAVE!!!!! These are my roommates and best friends that spent a few minutes with you at SEMA. I apologize for not being in attendance, but I certainly appreciate you talking with them to send me as much info as you could. I wanted to share a few things that I would be ECSTATIC to see considered on the car. These are all dream cars that I have fallen in love with for many reasons. If you truly want the 818 to stand out as a Ferrari-like HoF vehicle, I think you should consider taking a few design ques from other manufacturers and making it your own. These few ques have large purpose in both looks AND function.

6000

6001

6002

6005

6003

6004

I hope that these designs can be appreciated. My biggest attraction to all of these cars come down to 3-4 design pieces that they all share. Since the vehicles are mid-engine (with the exception of the HSV-010 GT), they take advantage of the ability to have a very low hood. This combined with huge wheel arches provide an extremely aggressive appearance from the front and 1/4. With the taller fender arches, a longer and skinnier headlight shape is almost feminine, yet very sharp and almost mean. The other aspect that I love is a large front opening. Whether there is ducting for interior cabin air, brake cooling, radiator cooling, or downforce, I find a larger (wide and tall) front opening to give a feeling that the vehicle is "eating" the pavement and air as it is driven. This can be tricky (Imagine catfish mouth) to make look beautiful while still being effective.

I truly think you have designed the perfect sports car with the current design of the chassis working with the Subaru running gear. You are on the right track and I have supreme faith in this project. I have been passionate about cars since 16 and Subarus since 19. I will not lose this drive to own the perfect car for my current tastes and desires. The 818 has inspired me to do so many things and your company is the staple of the American Dream for a reason.

I hope that we can talk on the phone prior to the completion of this project, as I desire to share my appreciation directly. Needless to say: I will be contacting your company in the next 2-5 years so that I may have the opportunity to build the 818 for my customers sharing the same love of going fast that we do.

Keep it up Dave. You rock.

[kmcgmc]

I already know I'm going to order the 818 when it becomes available. How about allowing us to pre-order one now?

[Niburu]

I already know I'm going to order the 818 when it becomes available. How about allowing us to pre-order one now?
because they need to get it running and tested first
Factory Five is not going sell anything to anyone without making sure it's all sorted out
you've got about a year before it's orderable
take that time to find a good donor car, save up some money for tools, and the kit itself

[AC Bill]

I also think the front bumper needs to curve in towards the bottom on the sides and the front edge- of course loosing the splitter all together.

Testing any body design in a wind tunnel would be a really good idea, (if at all possible). The nose, and bumper shape will be crucial in preventing lift at speeds. Curving the bumper in at the bottom may cause that issue.

It would be fantastic if FFR could test the prototype models in a a small wind tunnel, just to see the differences in design, and how the aerodynamics are.

[kach22i]

It would be fantastic if FFR could test the prototype models in a a small wind tunnel, just to see the differences in design, and how the aerodynamics are.
In general; the more exciting and animated the design (flares and bulging surfaces), the worse it will perform aero-wise. However, it would be nice to know at what degree these differences are.

[skullandbones]

Kach221,
Do you think it would be useful to apply the designs in question to the "green template" for comparison? It could be used before and after the tests to get an idea how the designs fit within acceptable aerodynamic norms. Just a thought. WEK.

[PhyrraM]

Testing any body design in a wind tunnel would be a really good idea, (if at all possible).

Good idea, but expensive. We are still talking about a $10K kit here.

IIRC, Dave has stated that Solidworks has a new flow analysis(?) software module that should do the job effectively for the 818. Dave has been stressing the whole "software to production" possibilities for a while now.

[Niburu]

It would be fantastic if FFR could test the prototype models in a a small wind tunnel, just to see the differences in design, and how the aerodynamics are.


In general; the more exciting and animated the design (flares and bulging surfaces), the worse it will perform aero-wise. However, it would be nice to know at what degree these differences are.

they can do most of the preliminary testing digitally since they have 3D CADD models
FFR wouldn't really need any wind tunnel testing until there is a full size model
because what happens at 1/4 scale does not necessarily happen at full scale

[vozproto]

Yeah, Solidworks has had a flow sim for a while now and do quite a bit of it for work. But have never put together a sim for a vehicle.

If any of the designs have a file that can be read into Solidworks (I would just need the outer shell parametric solid) I could likely easy throw something together once i have a free moment. The free moment is the hardest part.

It might get tricky if you want to see the effects of rotating wheels and laminar layers between road and underbody.

[Gollum]

iirc, FFR was very pleased with the wind tunnel data they got on the GTM and mentioned something about how they were good but predicted numbers thanks to the technology they had available during R&D. Basically, I got the feeling that the software they used (if it were solidworks or whatever) did a very accurate job of predicting the aerodynamics.

I'm sure things have only gotten better since then and we're seeing even more public interaction between FFR and Solidworks, HP, etc.

[myjones]

I also want to remind you guys that as many of you are focusing on the car, I am almost more fixated on the proocess of the development. I think that once the initail 818 is launched, be it an affordable roadster/soft top at first (likely), or a track car etc,.

I predict the following vanity plates will pop up
On the high MPG model<> FFubaru
On the track car <> Fubar U
Anyone else care to chime in
DB

[bbjones121]

0to60n3
60mphn3
to100n5

[Vman7]

Adrenaline

[kach22i]

Kach221,
Do you think it would be useful to apply the designs in question to the "green template" for comparison? It could be used before and after the tests to get an idea how the designs fit within acceptable aerodynamic norms. Just a thought. WEK.
Here is a link to the green template and the informative thread it came from.
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/aerodynamic-streamlining-template-part-c-9287-9.html

The template is supposed to be used in plan as well (to prevent vortexes at corners), but that almost means a 3-wheel car. The conformity at the front half is ignored for the most part because that is air compressing. It's the drag after the highest point which counts the most as I understand it, which kind of eliminates anything other than a true fastback or Prius like roof. I guess what I'm saying is as long as it stays on the road and does not fly away, and you like the way it looks, go for it.

If you really want a high mileage commuter, then expect it to look like one.

Here is a sketch I did recently explaining a simple two part aerodynamic solution. Everything above the wheels is an optimum teardrop, the stuff below is a wedge with flat sides to cover the wheels. It can get goofy looking on a "first pass", but the challenge of refining it really interests me. The Daytona Prototype Rolex Racer is another example of this concept.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x295/kach22i/Industrial%20Design/twopartbody-concept-kach22i.jpg

[bbatts]

I have also offered to send my deposit in Oct. 2011. FFR will not accept my deposit yet. It sure would be great to get started on building, then apply the body once they make a final selection. I'm sure I'll be happy with what ever they select.

B Batts
Nashville, TN



I already know I'm going to order the 818 when it becomes available. How about allowing us to pre-order one now?

[Dan Frederiksen]

I first learned of this 818 project a few days ago and I really approve of a simple (and cost optimized) light weight performance vehicle. I was under the impression that the design had been decided but people are still suggesting designs?

if the design is not final there is a very important element that should be incorporated as well. aerodynamics. it's super important and it's too often neglected and it's so stupid. even at 100km/h a typical car will waste 80% of the power on the air because the shape is sloppy.

most have some intuition of a speedy shape but basically no designers are conscious of how important aerodynamics is and a few pointers can make it easy.
roughly you can think of the shape as two parts, the front and the back. the front has to smoothly split the air (no vertical large faces and no caves like grills or light pits). the split is best done relatively quickly such that the back part can be as long as reasonably possible. it will be a compromise with the needed space inside.
if we look at near ideal shapes like the swordfish http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_naEjmKt2o1I/TPWci1hVxHI/AAAAAAAAAX4/UfVHk4Ec3zI/s1600/swordfish.jpg
the split of the water is close to the front and then the rear tapers off to nothing over a long distance. you see the same in glider airplanes and it's no coincidence. the surprising thing about aerodynamics is that it's not just about wedging through the air but how you let it close behind you is even more important. if you let is close the right way it actually sucks the air away from the front. in principle the aerodynamic drag can actually be zero because of this, it's that important.
a swordfish car would look a little funny but the principles can be applied to more typical car shapes. if we take a porsche cayman for instance http://image.automobilemag.com/f/29346810+w750+st0/0908_04_z+2009_porsche_cayman_s+profile.jpg
although it doesn't split the air as early as possible it does have a single long slick neck line, down to near nothing. that's why 911 and cayman have almost decent aerodynamics but it can be better still.
a counter example is the Cobra http://carfeatures.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/AC-Cobra-Front.jpg which has horrible aerodynamics. truly unintelligent shape. the worst offender there is the stiff upright windshield that first blocks the air and then throws it up to block more air and create a huge vacuum behind it. another sin is the open mouth at the front. for some reason an open bowl facing the air causes quite a bit of drag. that's why you see more intelligently designed cars today have less and less grill or even nothing.
you can have folds and lines in the design but best kept along the airflow lines of the body.

another surprising aspect is how important a smooth underside is. it's typically human to ignore that because we don't see it but it's important. same is smooth rims. another mistake is wide wheels. first of all you don't need wide wheels to get strong traction and the lighter the car the narrower tire it needs, linearly. halve the weight and you can do the same with half width tire. a narrower tire also helps with aero. a lot.

this is a sketch for another car but shaped for aerodynamics http://zev.dk/marathon/Sketchprofile.png
the windshield is moved forward and the front is smooth with no gaps. the opening at the bottom lets air flow under the smooth underside and the end of the car is very narrow which makes the vacuum behind it minimal. it also has covered rear wheels which also helps.

aerodynamics is really important and if you do it smartly it really pays off in performance. there is a good reason planes don't look like hummers or escalades or ferd f-teenthousands. those are dumb shapes.

[BipDBo]

I first learned of this 818 project a few days ago

Dan, you're new here, so I'll fill you in a bit. Factory 5 is going to make three basic chassis, a roadster, a track version and a coupe. The roadster will probably be designed with style as its main concern, but many here are pushing for certain aerodynamic qualities. Often style and aerodynamics overlap. The track version will likely be a variant of the roadster, but it may not have doors, might not have a windshield, and it may have body alterations to give it more down force. The coupe may be a variant of the roadster, but will likely be it's own design. The main goal goal of all designs will be low weight. The contest were for these versions, cars meant for performance, style and driving pleasure, but the top contenders are mostly fairly aerodynamic.

Here's where it get's interesting for you. Factory 5 will take the coupe chassis and build an ultra efficient version. The base design will be a VW TDi engine, but alternate drive trains like electric are only limited by the builders' imagination and resources. The body design, will be of course driven mostly by aerodynamics. This, high mpg body was not part of the design competition. Factory 5 has not yet announced how they will design the body, but if you want, feel free to download the chassis templates, draw up some ideas and post them to a thread. My guess is that they will develop this design in house or in conjunction with some university, or maybe West Philly High school, but I'm not sure that they have the proper resources for that. Anyway, I predict that this version will have many ultra aerodynamic aspects like smooth curves, minimal frontal intake, a low tapered rear end, etc. They may also have an under body panel and covers over the rear wheels.

The best part about this project is the price. The kit will start at $10,000 and the cheaper versions of the car will get parts from a single donor Subaru and be able to be completed for around $15,000. The high mpg models, however will be slightly more expensive because it will require parts from both a Subaru and a VW. You could soon be building you're dream car instead of just talking about it.

My design was optimized for track performance, so down force was just as important as minimal resistance. It was also an open roadster, no roof, doors, or windshield. I have considered going back into it and putting on a top, and making alterations to turn it into a minimal resistance design.

[Gummy]

Hey Dan, what do you think of Whetstone's design in terms of aerodynamics? It seems to be the "smoothest" of the designs listed in the polls. I was wondering what your analysis/take is on that design.

[kach22i]

Swordfish with a bad attitude?

Chevrolet Corvette Daytona Prototype
http://photos.speedtv.com/gallery/Chevrolet_Corvette_Daytona_Prototype/slideshow/Chevrolet_unveiled_its_2012_Corvette_Daytona_Proto type_at_Daytona_International_Speedway_on/06RS6JC0FX6MQ

Please note that the Daytona Prototype wheelbase is about a foot longer than the 818, and it is lower in height too. Most of these DP's are ungainly, somehow Chevy has stayed within common proportions and produced one if not the best looking car of this type.

There could be a lesson to be learned here.

[Xusia]

Also not mentioned here was FFR's aerodynamic work on the GTM. They are racers, so they know the importance of aerodynamics. As such, they spent a lot of time refining the final body & design of the GTM using a wind tunnel. I expect the 818 will get a similar treatment. :)

[Dan Frederiksen]

hi Gummy.
yes I prefer the Whetstone too but preferably with a few tweaks like shaving the hips a bit and thinking through the bottom lip so there are no forward cavities.
if possible the wheels should also be smooth or other kind of aerodynamic and I'd like to see a half covered rear wheel as well.
and flat bottom.
I don't expect they'll really appreciate optimized aerodynamics but if they at least give it some thought so we don't end up with yet another knuckledragger wasteful v8 design, that would be nice.
if done right it could be pretty great.

[Dan Frederiksen]

Xusia, nah I heard their description of the GTM. super wide with very wide tires. no intelligence behind that car. it's a tim the toolman taylor car. there is no thought beyond the panacea V8.
how should we design a car? put a small block V8 in it! how creative.
shouldn't it be aerodynamic? no! we design it like children with no regard for science or weight.

I exaggerate a little but only a little. a car should be born from intelligence, not low brow posing. way too much of that in USA.
the kit car concept is well suited for intelligence with the use of fiber glass and light chassis so it could be great.

[Flamshackle]

if possible the wheels should also be smooth or other kind of aerodynamic and I'd like to see a half covered rear wheel as well.

Half covered rear wheel!!! I would run a mile from ANY design that has flat wheels and half covered rear wheel wells!

[Jeff Kleiner]

You know Dan, "performance" means different things to different people. For the most part I don't think the crowd you've found here shares the same definition as you but stick around anyway.

Jeff

[2KWIK4U]

There is plenty on their wind tunnel testing of the gtm. It my have brute force under the bonnet but it is a refined design all the same.

[VTX]

I can understand wanting to have a fairly aerodynamic design, but my understanding on this car is that it has to be about style as much as performance. At least the roadster/targa versions. The track version I can understand it being a lot more important to have optimized aero.

With that in mind, if the car ends up having covered rear wheels then I'm running away. That just looks flat out ugly and there are plenty of very well performing cars that don't have covered rear wheels.

I think it just really depends on what you are looking for, but this car to me is going to be about my idea of fun, which is a combination of looks and performance. I think it's entirely possible to have this car look awesome and still perform awesome. If I were going to be racing it for money or something (which I'm not) then I could understand that functionality/performance becomes the most important thing and looks wouldn't matter anymore. From what Dave has talked about (HOF) I don't think that's what he has in mind with this car.

[BipDBo]

You know Dan, "performance" means different things to different people. For the most part I don't think the crowd you've found here shares the same definition as you but stick around anyway.

Jeff

You pegged it. A little perspective on Dan. He comments a lot on Autoblog Green. His idea of performance is maximum efficiency. His ideal car would be electric powered, shaped like an america's cup keel bulb, have the skinniest tires possible and wiegh next to nothing. He has lofty expectations, to say the least. If he seems a bit inflamatory sometimes, he's just passionate. Just let it go.

[Xusia]

The importance of aerodynamics is dependent on speed. At 20mph, aerodynamics don't matter as much as at 120mph. Personally, I don't intend to be driving this on a track [much], and I'm certainly not about to be doing 100+ on public roads, so I think the aerodynamic consideration FFR will put into the 818 will be plenty good enough for me.

[Xusia]

Xusia, nah I heard their description of the GTM. super wide with very wide tires. no intelligence behind that car. it's a tim the toolman taylor car. there is no thought beyond the panacea V8.
how should we design a car? put a small block V8 in it! how creative.
shouldn't it be aerodynamic? no! we design it like children with no regard for science or weight.

Dan, with respect, I couldn't disagree with you more. I think you missed the point of the GTM. HINT: It wasn't about efficiency. Also, I don't believe it was designed by children with no regard for science or weight. It was designed to be a race car you could drive on the street; aka a super car. Aerodynamics were given due consideration in light of that goal (a goal which was achieved, BTW).

In regards to using a V8, why not? The easiest and cheapest way to add power is to increase displacement. Creative? Perhaps not, but I doubt FFR was trying to win a creative genius award for the car design. Again, I assume they were focused on the design goals of the car - one of which was price (as in, to keep the price reasonable and within reach of their customers). Also, in case you aren't aware, engines that extract high power from lower displacements are generally less reliable (an undesirable characteristic for the DIY car). Smaller displacement engines also limit top power (I don't care what you say, you aren't going to get 1000hp from a 2 liter 4 cylinder - with ANY amount of boost). So the choice to use a V8 in the GTM makes perfect sense when you understand the design goals. I suspect the real issue for you is that you don't agree with the design goals. If that's the case, then the GTM wasn't made for you - and that's OK. No need to knock others' choices though.

Honest question: Do you know why US auto makers tend to increase displacement when seeking to increase HP, while [particularly] European auto makers tend to add boost to lower displacement engines when seeking to increase HP? I mean, European auto makers could increase the displacement rather than adding boost, but do you know why they don't? I'll give you a hint: Except for niche auto makers like Lotus (whose reputation is built on low weight/displacement, and high performance), it's NOT because they are trying to be creative. It's because they've HAD to be creative.

I'll let you mull that over for a while. :)


I exaggerate a little but only a little. a car should be born from intelligence, not low brow posing. way too much of that in USA.
the kit car concept is well suited for intelligence with the use of fiber glass and light chassis so it could be great.

If that's your idea, that's awesome. Personally, I would prefer something more visually appealing in a sports car. Ideally, I'd ALSO have an ugly *** daily commuter designed as you have described.

[Oppenheimer]

Dan, What if they build an ideal, aero optimized design, and nobody buys it? OK, you might, and a few like you, but if you want this project have real impact, its going to need to appeal to a larger audience. If FFR makes the 818 mpg version exciting looking, yet reasonably aero, so that it gets great mileage (albeit not as much as it could), a lot of people will buy them. Non gear-heads will have other people build them one. There will be more of them on the road.

Creative people like yourself can modify the design, close off vents, smooth wheels, skinny tires, enclosed wheel wells, and show off the serious mileage you can achieve. People will get excited about the idea, and over time the populace at large will be more accepting of these design elements.

At the end of the day its all about selling cars for FFR. Make it 'ugly' it won't sell. People don't buy/drive them, more fuel gets wasted. Whats good for FFR bottom line is good for the environment, is good for the green car movement.

The original Honda Insight got better mileage than a Prius. Its shape was a virtual clone of the very popular CRX, the major difference, and the most obvious difference to every other car on the road, being the enclosed fender skirts. The Insight bombed while the Prius soared. FFR isn't going to make that same mistake.

[thestigwins]

Dan, you sure have a way with words :rolleyes:

I am a member of multiple forums and websites and see nothing but negativity from you. The GTM is am amazing kit and I am pretty sure that weight was a huge factor in the design of it. I'm not saying that opinions should be kept to themselves. I am saying that there is a way to voice your opinion without being completely disrespectful.

[David Hodgkins]

Pm sent.

[Tpa65cpe]

In reply to Dan F statment about the GTM's efficency please look in the archives because I seem to rember a certain High School that won a HMPG green contest!! Also I dont think that the body was changed all that much!! IMHO the GTM is FFR's best design so far It is not my favorite but I still watched it being devloped and appreciated all the hard work that went into it. Please rember to be couterous when you make strong statments. I have been following the 818 since the beginning and it will be what I expect FFR will deliver, awesome performance and HOF ATTITUDE !!!

[Dan Frederiksen]

oppenheimer, try to realize that you arbitrarily assume an aerodynamic car will be ugly. that's just not true.

[Dan Frederiksen]

Tpa, the GTM most likely has decent overall aerodynamics, I have been talking about different aspects of different cars, that's important to keep separate. I was talking about how the GTM had emphasis on width of the body and of the wheels. these are poser aspects and contrary to aerodynamics. a racer doesn't need to be wide to be fast on a track. the body shape itself looks like it has a pretty good Cd because it's so 'flat'. the rear gills are not ideal and such but that's not really important.

I'm just trying to raise awareness of aerodynamics such that the cars are designed with that in mind. there is huge advantage in it and it doesn't make it ugly like some think.
the Cobra is a classic example of how bad it can get when aerodynamics is completely overlooked (or a lotus 7). it makes a dramatic difference.
many of you think efficiency is something a prius does and that's not what real men do but that's very wrong. intelligence wins races. intelligence gives your car better performance. it makes your car feared on the drag strip. it makes the car cheaper.
waste is just not smart..

it's exactly like personal finance. if you waste the money you get a whole lot less. if you waste the power of the drivetrain you get less performance or pay a lot more.
stuff actually matters..

[bbjones121]

intelligence wins races. intelligence gives your car better performance. it makes your car feared on the drag strip.

Sorry, have to raise the BS flag here. You should have left out the drag strip part. Power is what people fear at the drag strip. Youtube a Cobra at the dragstrip, they don't seem to have any problems.

[Dan Frederiksen]

bbjones, think about it. just because it's only 10-15 seconds doesn't mean the laws of physics let it pass. it could be a trillion times faster and physics will be there to do very exact accounting.
do you think it matters if they pull the chute from the start?
that's what a cobra and caterham is. driving with a chute all the time.

[Tpa65cpe]

Dan, I was just trying to make a point about how a group of H.S.students and a Teacher took a FFR GTM and applied hard work, intelligence, and determination, and beat others in a High MPG contest!! I also understand that waste is not good for your wallett, the EARTH, or Society in general. As per your comment on racing, to win it also takes Courage of the driver,support of the pit crew, intelligent enginerring, experience, and deep pockets of the Sponsers!! This applies to all kinds of Racing in general. You also have to take into account the intended market of these "KITS". FFR is trying to reach a World wide group of "CAR GUYS" with the 818! Also there will be 3 different body styles a Roadster, Track Car, and then a HMPG version. This comes from the Owner Dave Smith and the finished product will be approx 818KG, a light fast Great Looking car!! I know FFR and Mr Smith will not be happy with anything less!! And if you think the GTM is a poseur because of styling accents buy all means dont buy one, please purchase the one that you want or need. That is what I love about this Country the right to choose. You also have the right to state your opinion, just be courteus to others when you do so and they will respect yours!!

[BipDBo]

the Cobra is a classic example of how bad it can get when aerodynamics is completely overlooked (or a lotus 7).

FYI: Cobras and Lotus 7s are typically raced without a windshield. This probably does make a considerable difference in performance. As a side note, officially, FFR does not make Cobras.

[Oppenheimer]

oppenheimer, try to realize that you arbitrarily assume an aerodynamic car will be ugly. that's just not true.

Perhaps, but keep in mind I suspect we don't have the same idea of what looks good. Enclosed wheel openings and flat, smooth wheels aren't going to look 'good' to me no matter how they are presented.

You keep calling the design of the Cobra 'unintelligent' (using words not always so kind). Keep in mind its a shape that was designed in the late '50's, and aerodynamics was not one of its design criteria. Stick to picking on something more modern, that clearly had (or should have had) aerodynamics in mind if you want to have a cogent argument.

Also keep in mind that you can have the greatest ideas in the world, but if it you don't present them in a way that people find respectful and convincing, you will never sway their thinking. I'm sure you find it frustrating to have good ideas that no one seems to want to pay attention to. Learn to present your ideas in ways that neurotypicals find appealing, and you will find people starting to pay more attention.

[vozproto]

Tpa, the GTM most likely has decent overall aerodynamics, I have been talking about different aspects of different cars, that's important to keep separate. Tpa, the GTM most likely has decent overall aerodynamics, I have been talking about different aspects of different cars, that's important to keep separate. I was talking about how the GTM had emphasis on width of the body and of the wheels. these are poser aspects and contrary to aerodynamics. a racer doesn't need to be wide to be fast on a track. I'm just trying to raise awareness of aerodynamics such that the cars are designed with that in mind. there is huge advantage in it and it doesn't make it ugly like some think.
the Cobra is a classic example of how bad it can get when aerodynamics is completely overlooked (or a lotus 7). it makes a dramatic difference.
many of you think efficiency is something a prius does and that's not what real men do but that's very wrong. k. the body shape itself looks like it has a pretty good Cd because it's so 'flat'. the rear gills are not ideal and such but that's not reallywaste is just not smart.. important.

I'm just trying to raise awareness of aerodynamics such that the cars are designed with that in mind. there is huge advantage in it and it doesn't make it ugly like some think.
the Cobra is a classic example of how bad it can get when aerodynamics is completely overlooked (or a lotus 7). it makes a dramatic difference.
many of you think efficiency is something a prius does and that's not what real men do but that's very wrong. intelligence wins races. intelligence gives your car better performance. it makes your car feared on the drag strip. it makes the car cheaper.
waste is just not smart..

it's exactly like personal finance. if you waste the money you get a whole lot less. if you waste the power of the drivetrain you get less performance or pay a lot more.
stuff actually matters..

Tell us a little bit about yourself so we can get where you are coming from.
Are you a racer?
Do you design cars?
What is your idea of a good looking / well performing / efficient vehicle?

[vozproto]

And...

if:
Intelligence = Better Aerodynamics = lower Cd

and

Intelligence = winning races


Shall we call Formula one teams and tell them they are doing it wrong?
Their Cd is between 0.7 and 1.1 dependent upon their wing and canard configurations.

[2KWIK4U]

Perhaps, but keep in mind I suspect we don't have the same idea of what looks good. Enclosed wheel openings and flat, smooth wheels aren't going to look 'good' to me no matter how they are presented.

I also do not want a car that looks like a Prius, sorry

[fourier]

I was talking about how the GTM had emphasis on width of the body and of the wheels. these are poser aspects
Is this not also an assumption based on your personal opinion?


and contrary to aerodynamics. a racer doesn't need to be wide to be fast on a track.
There are so many different aspects of suspension and handling related to track width (stability in corning, high speed, etc) that you cannot simply turn a blind eye because you adore "aerodynamic efficiency". You might lose some speed on the straights but you might gain more in the corners. I'm not going to bother getting into the possibility of negligible differences when comparing similar body widths when considering the boundary layer generated off the nose since it's hard to tell without direct comparison (a before and after of the same car) and impossible to tell in a real world racing situation (as an example, low pressure due to the car in front might make a difference in width near pointless).

A 1960s car with bad aero dynamics compared to a modern car with the same power train will indeed make a difference and not a negligible one, but compare two modern cars that both had at least some testing (if only in solidworks), and it will make little difference; most of the track time differences between the two will be in suspension and power train, since they are designed with aerodynamics in mind (not at the top of the list but part of the list) to a good enough degree.

Overdoing something is a pointless waste, and I doubt FFR wants to throw money at increasing the MPH in a straight by 2-5mph. How many people here will take the car above 100? Above 150? How many tracks do you know of where you'd even have the opportunity? How much will a .3 and .2 frontal area differ in acceleration with identical power at 50mph? At 100? At 120? You'll gain a little in the top end, and a negligible amount of acceleration. Add 10WHP to the .3 car, and it will be faster under 100 and close up to the limit where the .2 will eek ahead. How much auto cross is spent in 2nd to 4th gear? You might gain 3mpg gallon at highway speeds (very hypothetical and a high estimate in my opinion).

Shouldn't FFR be investing into research for void generating field technology (I just made that up :p) to effectively remove all aerodynamic drag? That would be the truly intelligent design and thereby make anything less unintelligent. Why not work on a black hole generator for gravity based acceleration -- we could all be soaring faster than we could see!

You need to think about practicality versus theory. There's a programming concept I think applies well here: KISS -- keep it simple stupid (not calling you stupid, it's just the phrase). There becomes a point when the cost outweighs the benefit. Throwing easily and cheaply attained horsepower in a performance car is a logical, intelligent choice because it is a practical, excellent cost-to-benefit solution. The GM LS engine in itself is a lesson in practicality. It's uncomplicated, powerful, and light. I see an elegance in simplicity, and while I won't say there isn't elegance in maximum efficiency, it's certainly cannot claimed that one is more elegant than the other. That's the trouble with relative words or perceptions: you cannot make absolute statements about them without making a logical fallacy (on a purely philosophical note, all absolute statements would be fallacies without absolute knowledge which means this statement is also a fallacy, but if it being a fallacy is based on itself then is that then a fallacy? Or that? Or that...? :)).

That is my recommendation for you. If it ends up that the car's efficiency is .29 but it could be .2, do it yourself. Don't forget to dimple it too -- that will lower it even more. Damn the costs and the looks; all that matters is getting that number lower.

Sorry, an obsession with aerodynamic "efficiency" just wreaks of inefficient use of resources. It seems like you've toned yourself down a bit, so maybe you aren't as obsessive as you presented in your earlier posts (hey, I'm man enough to admit I just made a relative statement about my perception of you and that I could be absolutely wrong :)). Do please try to understand other people's point of views, and that aerodynamic efficiency should not be the top priority of any car-maker (weight reduction and engine technology plays a far bigger role in fuel efficiency). I respect and agree with your desire to point out that good aerodynamics should be a part of the design, and I'm sure FFR is attentive of the issue to the degree that makes sense financially.

[Twinspool]

I heard that a feminine applicator on your rear bumper was worth 0.00021 reduction in the drag coefficient. Because all cars should look like suppositories.

http://thefailstop.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/mirror-five.jpg

[Xusia]

Fourier, I find your post thoughtful, eloquent, and intelligent. You put my own thoughts into words.

[Dan Frederiksen]

I was less impressed by your post fourier. A long and thoughtless excuse to not think about aerodynamics.

what most of you don't understand is that aerodynamics is neither costly, nor ugly nor insignificant. just because you have never thought about it doesn't mean it isn't real.

[Movieman]

I was less impressed by your post fourier. A long and thoughtless excuse to not think about aerodynamics.
Now I'm not one of what you'd call the insiders here but I do have a bit of experience with forums and with life in general.
Many many years ago my father made a comment to me that goes like this:
" If you don't have something pleasant or positive to add to a conversation then maybe your better off saying nothing"
I think this is the case here unfortunately.
What you need to understand is that although people here will show different opinions they tend to do it respectfully while your tone is not respectfull of others opinions.
My suggestion to you is to step back and just see what develops.
You may be positively surprised or maybe not.
Either way the final decision is neither yours,mine or anyone elses here.
It will be decided by David Smith and the staff of FFR.
Thanks for reading.

[DrieStone]

it's exactly like personal finance. if you waste the money you get a whole lot less. if you waste the power of the drivetrain you get less performance or pay a lot more.
stuff actually matters..

The flaw in that logic is that everything is a balancing act. Some people might claim buying artwork is wasteful, others might say that shopping for cheap stuff at Walmart is wasteful. It sounds like you're suggesting that aerodynamics trump all else, and yet here you are on a forum for performance kit cars instead of hyper milage forum, or a forum on how to make your motorcycle more fuel efficient.

Beyond that, your tact is not making you any friends which means any reasonable argument you might have is falling on deaf ears.


many of you think efficiency is something a prius does and that's not what real men do but that's very wrong. intelligence wins races. intelligence gives your car better performance.

I wouldn't say driving a Prius makes someone less of a man, I would say that it make that person a poser and a bit of a douche. As I've stated elsewhere I think the Prius is an environmental pyramid scheme of sorts. Intelligence may win races, but what happens when you don't want to win a race, you just want to look good driving down the road?

When I build my hot looking, exotic 818 with a .38 Cd you can wave as I pass you in your fuel sipping, aerodynamic bubble car.

[David Hodgkins]

Guys, let's please be civil and get this thread back on track. I hate to do it but this thread might need some serious cleanup. Remember, we're all here because we want to help make the 818 the best it can be and give feedback to updates from Dave. We can't have this turn into a war of personality.

:)

[kach22i]

I think Dan provided a useful perspective on the topic of aerodynamics, not mainstream of this forum but useful.

It's rather shameful how low brow the reaction was by a vocal few.

If everyone thought the same there would be little to discuss and little to learn from each other.

[crackedcornish]

I think Dan provided a useful perspective on the topic of aerodynamics, not mainstream of this forum but useful.

It's rather shameful how low brow the reaction was by a vocal few.

If everyone thought the same there would be little to discuss and little to learn from each other.

perhaps, but in my opinion, if he had stated his initial views in a less condescending tone he would have gotten his points a little further along before being called out for his poor attitude by some of the others who frequent here..

personally, I don't disagree with some of what he's attempting to say, it's just how he says it, that's a little hard to take...once you have insulted something people have some passion for they stop hearing anything but the insults

everybody is entitled to voice their opinions, but if you do it in what could only be conceived as a superior manner...well, some people will take it personally

...fortunately, we have good moderators here, so anyone who can't tone it down and be civil will eventually get the boot

[Rockraven]

Okay, asking if Dan was twelve may have overstepped tact a little, but calling FFR's hugely successful and beautiful designs "ignorant" and "stupid" didn't sit well with me, and crossed the line. This is a forum of car enthusiasts, and aero is but one factor that contributes to a great enthusiast's car. If aero was the end-all to performance, everything would look like an Aptera, which last time I checked, isn't setting the hair on fire of too many people.

[bbjones121]

Any chance we might see the other three models detailed like Jims?

[rexaroo]

So, this may have already been covered. If it has, I apologize, but I skimmed the last 23 pages and didn't see anything. I understand most everyone is worried about the design, that certainly is important, but I have a couple questions regarding performance. Being a WRX owner who has (admittedly) spent way to much money on power mods, I'm curious if the chassis design can handle 500+ hp as well as the needed items to make it so (larger intercooler being the main one). It would also be a plus if coilovers would be a direct swap. I know it was stated stock running gear would swap, but most coilovers are going to have a good drop in them, I'm curious if that was taken into consideration. If I'm simply in the wrong section, please point me in the right one! I appreciate any info.

[Draco-REX]

So, this may have already been covered. If it has, I apologize, but I skimmed the last 23 pages and didn't see anything. I understand most everyone is worried about the design, that certainly is important, but I have a couple questions regarding performance. Being a WRX owner who has (admittedly) spent way to much money on power mods, I'm curious if the chassis design can handle 500+ hp as well as the needed items to make it so (larger intercooler being the main one). It would also be a plus if coilovers would be a direct swap. I know it was stated stock running gear would swap, but most coilovers are going to have a good drop in them, I'm curious if that was taken into consideration. If I'm simply in the wrong section, please point me in the right one! I appreciate any info.
Power shouldn't be an issue. Dave has stated that this will be the stiffest chassis they've made. I don't see there being an issue.

As for intercooler allowances, you will likely be using a large TMIC rather than a FMIC. To use an FMIC, you'll have to run piping the whole length of the car. It'd take forever to charge that much volume.

And for suspension, it's going to come with coilovers. The kit is going to convert the machpherson strut suspension into a dual wishbone design. Koni is supplying the coilovers. Standard ones will be non- or single-adjustable with optional double-adjustable dampers available. Existing coilovers from a Subaru will not work as the suspension will no longer use struts.

[RonSchofield]

I'm just trying to raise awareness of aerodynamics such that the cars are designed with that in mind. there is huge advantage in it and it doesn't make it ugly like some think. The Cobra is a classic example of how bad it can get when aerodynamics is completely overlooked (or a lotus 7)

In 50 years from now, no one is going to want to have a Prius, but people will still want a Cobra or a replica of it. That is a classic example of a car that people want no matter how bad you think it's aerodynamics are. People don't buy because of how low a cd it has. It's an emotional thing.

Why don't you give an example of a car (with picture) that you think has the aerodynamics you think it needs and one that will have companies that will be building a replica of it 50 years from now. If you can't, then don't dis one of the most beautiful car shapes ever produced.

[Rockraven]

http://fp.images.autos.msn.com/Media/425x255/0e/0ef147e30d674c17978d72348208f38d.jpg

[Xusia]

For a commuter car, that looks great. I would definitely own one. For a sports car, not really my kind of thing.

[GUNS]

It looks like a cessna that they forgot to put the wings on. On a side note, I am all about modern cars taking on a less than conventional body design, but just not for this project.

[Rockraven]

For a commuter car, that looks great. I would definitely own one. For a sports car, not really my kind of thing.

For all the resources an investor's cash that went into it, the Aptera is a dud. Nobody wants it. Doing what Dan is suggesting is (dare I say it) stupid.

[olpro]

That vehicle, the Apterra, has been getting hyped for several years, especially here in San Diego. It is a farce and the claims made for it are outrageous.
They were unable to get federal dollars (big surprise since the Feds were handing out money to any company with a good story, lke Solyndra) and that was the ONLY way they were going to get any financing.
I remember the DALE - same thing, same results.

[kach22i]

the Aptera is a dud. Nobody wants it.
I'd love to own one, but cash is tight these days.

The designer Jason Hill does some nice work, and even had a hand in the Porsche Carrera GT design.

http://designby11.com/

His 4-wheel Palomar is also quite interesting.
http://www.apteraforum.com/showthread.php?t=4703&page=2
6275


I remember the DALE - same thing, same results.
Ouch, the details of that are stranger than fiction.

Article:
http://www.onehellofaneye.com/2010/04/26/don%E2%80%99t-take-those-boobs-to-town-boy/

In reality, Jerry Dean Michael was a transvestite, the father of those five kids, and had been wanted by the police since 1961.

[olpro]

My gawd! There is actually an Aptera FORUM??
Sorry guys, that whole thing is a total scam, designed to raise funding for a ridiculous vehicle that could never meet the outrageous claims made for it. Those corny forms have been drawn by every freshman and sophomore design student since I was in college back in the stone age. When I was teaching, I had to BEAT my kids to keep them from doing those silly hanging skirt things for the wheels (with the magic suspension systems). They are not even aerodynamic, they just look like they are. At least most of the junior and senior design students have outgrown that particular cliché.
One of the original press stories for this thing was in the San Diego Union-Tribune, written by their automotive writer, Mark Maynard. I know Mark and e-mailed him at the time to berate him for presenting the company’s claims unchallenged. He responded sheepishly that he was sorry but wasn’t at fault, his editor had removed the qualifying statements that would have kept it real, to meet the space available in the paper.

There is a real comparison here to the Dale, which by the way was supposedly powered by a BMW motorcycle engine. One reporter got a sneak look at the actual engine in their prototype and the company making it did start with the letter B. The unfortunate part is that the rest of the name was …”and Stratton”. It was designed to putt around just fast enough for the press showing.

The very existence of an Aptera forum is ominous, with all its followers, eager to ‘believe’. Sorry but it makes me wonder about this forum sometimes.

[olpro]

The guy who designed the Dale was an Art Center grad and he interviewed at Nissan. He told us the fascinating story about the project. Apparently the person behind the thing started it as a scam but, when he/she saw the fiberglass prototype taking shape, actually began to believe that it could work. Such is the mindset of those people who are natural liars.

[kach22i]

MThe very existence of an Aptera forum is ominous, with all its followers, eager to ‘believe’. Sorry but it makes me wonder about this forum sometimes.
Even the Moller SkyCar has a forum of sorts, welcome to the 21st century.:p

http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155

[keys2heaven]

Even the Moller SkyCar has a forum of sorts, welcome to the 21st century.:p

http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=155

Yeah, and that thing will never get off the ground. But hey, I got a collector's edition model of it! :)

[flyboy2160]

moderator, would you please rename this thread "818 rants and raves," pull all the posts from dave from this thread, and put them in a dave-only-post thread with the title "updates from dave" so we don't have to wade through all these posts (some of which are way out of bounds) to get official info from dave. thanks.

[Dan Frederiksen]

olpro, your perception of aptera is not exactly accurate.

and I'm not proposing an aptera design. I have said many times now that for instance the Whetstone targa with a few tweaks could have decent aerodynamics (the mouth and bit lower hips, maybe smoother neck)
I'm actually a little puzzled why FFR is trying their own kit car look design when they have a high end look like the Whetstone. or the Nouphone or Bonathan for that matter. the closed Bonathan looks like it could have quite good aerodynamics as well (with a few tweaks like smaller gills if any)

[bbjones121]

moderator, would you please rename this thread "818 rants and raves," pull all the posts from dave from this thread, and put them in a dave-only-post thread with the title "updates from dave" so we don't have to wade through all these posts (some of which are way out of bounds) to get official info from dave. thanks.

Agreed. I keep hoping to get info from Dave on here.

[olpro]

Agreed. I keep hoping to get info from Dave on here.
Agreed also, but in the meantime, the rants and raves at least keep us awake :)

[mekeys]

I remember seeing the "DALE" at the L.A. auto show.I still have the brochure..A $2000 dollar pipe dream..

Mel

[kach22i]

Nouphone
The only work that design needs is figuring out how optional side windows and a removable top would all fit together.

Once again, if we had better views of those models more people might be able to see this.

A waste of effort, talent and money if a better presentation of the models is never followed up on.

[Wayne Presley]

I guess patience is lost on this generation of high speed internet junkies. Remember when you would get your updates in magazines even though there was a 90 day lead between info and printing. FFR does not have a team of 20 people doing only shaping of the body to try out ideas. My guess is that they will let you see the body as soon as they have it ready.

[David]

I guess patience is lost on this generation of high speed internet junkies. Remember when you would get your updates in magazines even though there was a 90 day lead between info and printing. FFR does not have a team of 20 people doing only shaping of the body to try out ideas. My guess is that they will let you see the body as soon as they have it ready.

+1. :)

[WIS89]

Wayne-

Thanks for the first sane post in this thread in quite a while! I agree that we will both see something soon, and only when FF has something to show us. Likewise, I am certain that as soon as Dave wades through all the competing tasks lying on his desk that he too will update us as we would all like. It still amazes me how much this very small company actually does accomplish with the modest staff they do have. I am certain our patience will be rewarded!! I for one, cannot wait to see the final product(s).

I also agree with the poster who suggested cleaning up this thread; it sure would make things easier to read...

Patience grasshoppers!!

Regards,
Steve

[bbjones121]

This isn't really about patience, as it looks like some are trying to make it out to be, it is about precedence. Look at how active FFR was up until SEMA. It doesn't have to do with patience at all, everyone was use to getting something from FFR daily, now nothing. Please don't try to turn this into a generational guilt trip and call people impatient because we became accustomed to a routine.

I am perfectly patient and can wait to see the next details. It is around the holidays, so as with any business, productivity turns down slightly or a lot. I hope they (FFR) take a lot of vacation to relax from such a busy year and come back in January highly motivated to get this project done.

[skullandbones]

Hi Dan,

Welcome to the forum.

Working in a hydrolic environment (air), there is not enough resistence to support your arguement. It's too dilute. If you were in a H20 environment the importance of aerodynamics would be raised to the level you give it because it would be the limiting factor for speed/power. And should be optimized in every case.

Your worse example of aerodynamics: Cobra did quite well with a racing wind shield, splitter, air dam, and wing.

The wide track and wide tires are necessary for racing speed. If there is less stability (e.g. sliding in curves), speed is lost. I wish the "Stig" could chime in on that arguement.

Aerodynamics is important but not to the extent you suggest in this arena. Like someone else said, "it is a balancing act". Power to weigh ratio trumps aerodynamics in most cases.

I agree, also, there should be a separate thread to put Dave's updates. WEK.

[Dan Frederiksen]

He's been banned so I'm deleting the post and subsequent responses

[blueafro]

Wayne, good call with the ban. From his posting style, I've been assuming this was the same Dan Frederiksen who "enlightens" Space Fellowship and various electric and environmental automotive sites with his insightful comments.

[imom]

Hi Wayne,
I saw Dan's post before you edited / removed his comments. As a suggestion, I believe it's better had you left his original reply and just banned him and then left a post saying that Dan was banned for these comments. It shows readers that being rude will not be tolerated...but when you removed his comments; other members who didn't get a chance to read the post know what he said to get banned and behave the same way. The fact that he called skullandbones "thoughtless" after his polite reply... it would have been good for the readers of this forum to see what are the guidelines so others don't repeat it.

[2KWIK4U]

Wow banning Dan F after only 18 posts......it must be a record. LOL I can't say I am surprised though.

[NicksPapaw]

Thank you Wayne! Now back to our regular programming. 818 project updates from Dave! Dave, are you here???? :)

[skullandbones]

Thanks, Wayne.

I might have gotten my feelings hurt if I had seen Dan's comments. Hee - Hee. WEK.

[BipDBo]

He's been banned so I'm deleting the post and subsequent responses

I thought he made things fun, but I saw this coming.

[Wayne Presley]

BTW, it's the group of mods that sweep up around here. I'm not sure which one of us banned him.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Darn, I put him on my "ignore" list (he's actually the only one I've ever done that to---I didn't even "ignore" Wayne's pal Meat!) and missed all the excitement :p

[DrieStone]

At least they banned him in a smooth and aerodynamic way.

I know he was a bit... terse and borderline rude, I got the impression that he went away since he wasn't receiving a warm welcome. I admit I too am a bit curious what he said that got the ban hammer.

[shinn497]

You know I used to troll like that...being critical of cars that aren't high mileage and low COD. For got why really. I think in the future I will want to buy/build an EV. They really are the future.

Anyway I think we need to get back on subject.

DAVE IF YOU UPDATE I WILL SEND YOU COOKIES :3

[nickarub]

Dave come back.

[BipDBo]

Dave come back.

I think we drove him away with all of the negativity, bickering and demands. It wasn't from all of us, but enough. He's got a lot of work to do, and doesn't have time to entertain us. Plus, it sounds like it may be a while before he has an updates to share, and by the way previous updates were recieved, he may not want to.

[Steve91T]

I think we drove him away with all of the negativity, bickering and demands. It wasn't from all of us, but enough. He's got a lot of work to do, and doesn't have time to entertain us. Plus, it sounds like it may be a while before he has an updates to share, and by the way previous updates were recieved, he may not want to.

I don't blame him one bit.

[BipDBo]

I'm not pointing fingers. I've p*ssed a few folks off myself.

[bbjones121]

There are a lot of people that usually take time off now to spend with family because of the holidays. Just an FYI for everyone wondering where people might be.

[GUNS]

Dave,
Any Christmas updates? I just spent the weekend at VIR tracking with a bunch of Elises and Exiges and they are very tempting.... I need some 818 updates to keep me on track!

[I_DID]

I was reading some of the post and noticed that someone was already banned. As a WRX and F5 Cobra owner I have been on the famous NASIOC forums as well as the F5 and club cobra (hi forrest!). Great resources, but people tend to be lets say.. rude. I presonally attribute it to the younger crowd.. Some are great dont get me wrong, but a lot are just plain rude.


Anyways, Looking forward to this build. This winter I have focused on a mild performance enhancement to the wrx. For little cash you can make these a lot of fun. Turbo upgrades, intercooler upgrades, and a WHOLE lot available. What I do question is the lack of AWD in the new design.. I recently read the F5 update on the website but I see RWD. I think this should be an option given the systems in these cars allow for amazing launches and driverability. It is a load of fun compared to my S4 (what I sold to get into the f5).... So anyways for what its worth, please oh PLEASE keep the awd option. Also the saftey of awd is unparalleled, especially when rain or fast corners are involved. Yeah rwd is a true sports car, but imagine this new design with 400 whp (for cheap) and all the other goodies from the chasis... It will keep a lot of us "planted" and make for amazing 0-60 times (this is great for marketing). Honestly, If I could slap awd in my Cobra I would.. well I guess I could but not as easily as something that is being designed for it.... can you tell I am a HUGE fan of AWD ;-)

also for those interested check out COBB tuning. Great product and staged packages available. Tons of support and longevitity is in mind with the ECU maps they provide.


If anyone is interested in Subagoo options just search google. Ebay cheap knockoffs to amazing product (see process west). Have fun, cant wait to see what comes out of this.

[GUNS]

I was reading some of the post and noticed that someone was already banned. As a WRX and F5 Cobra owner I have been on the famous NASIOC forums as well as the F5 and club cobra (hi forrest!). Great resources, but people tend to be lets say.. rude. I presonally attribute it to the younger crowd.. Some are great dont get me wrong, but a lot are just plain rude.


Anyways, Looking forward to this build. This winter I have focused on a mild performance enhancement to the wrx. For little cash you can make these a lot of fun. Turbo upgrades, intercooler upgrades, and a WHOLE lot available. What I do question is the lack of AWD in the new design.. I recently read the F5 update on the website but I see RWD. I think this should be an option given the systems in these cars allow for amazing launches and driverability. It is a load of fun compared to my S4 (what I sold to get into the f5).... So anyways for what its worth, please oh PLEASE keep the awd option. Also the saftey of awd is unparalleled, especially when rain or fast corners are involved. Yeah rwd is a true sports car, but imagine this new design with 400 whp (for cheap) and all the other goodies from the chasis... It will keep a lot of us "planted" and make for amazing 0-60 times (this is great for marketing). Honestly, If I could slap awd in my Cobra I would.. well I guess I could but not as easily as something that is being designed for it.... can you tell I am a HUGE fan of AWD ;-)

also for those interested check out COBB tuning. Great product and staged packages available. Tons of support and longevitity is in mind with the ECU maps they provide.


If anyone is interested in Subagoo options just search google. Ebay cheap knockoffs to amazing product (see process west). Have fun, cant wait to see what comes out of this.

The AWD topic has been covered before. I think initially it is not practical due to cost and weight. I can see this as a future option maybe. I personally prefer rwd. My WRX is the first AWD car that I've tracked and so far I'm not a fan. Holy understeer! I think the 818 with something like a 20-80 split would be sweet, but I'm still anxiously awaiting the first model at this point.

[skullandbones]

Could someone explain the difference between a four wheel drive vs an all wheel drive (other than engaging a 4x4)? Are they set up similarly? Of course, the reason I wanted to kow is that I have a working Nissan 4x4 with a 3 litre V 6. I don't suppose that would be a possibility or would it? I also have a Rav 4 with all wheel drive. I can't see much difference from the few times I've been under the car to work on it. I thought it was pretty weird when I found that my Nissan trans used automatic tranmission fluid when I first got it. I haven't seen a template of the engine bay so I really would like to know what else would fit in the 818 if someone wanted to do a variant. Thanks, WEK.

[Oppenheimer]

818 AWD is not realistic. Think about, the engine is being moved to the rear. The driveshaft to power the other two wheels is now coming out the back of the car. How are you going to make that drive the front wheels? Now you can see why AWD is not really an option here.

[DrieStone]

Typically "all wheel drive" is full time 4 wheel drive. "Four wheel drive" usually has a locking center differential (usually a transfer case with a low range) and a front and rear axle. Of course this is typically the differentiation, and different manufacturers call it different things.

Most "all wheel drive" vehicles drive the front wheels off the transmission, the center diff is part of the transmission as well. Then there is a drive shaft to a single rear differential.

Apples and oranges really.

[Draco-REX]

Could someone explain the difference between a four wheel drive vs an all wheel drive (other than engaging a 4x4)? Are they set up similarly? Of course, the reason I wanted to kow is that I have a working Nissan 4x4 with a 3 litre V 6. I don't suppose that would be a possibility or would it? I also have a Rav 4 with all wheel drive. I can't see much difference from the few times I've been under the car to work on it. I thought it was pretty weird when I found that my Nissan trans used automatic tranmission fluid when I first got it. I haven't seen a template of the engine bay so I really would like to know what else would fit in the 818 if someone wanted to do a variant. Thanks, WEK.
For the 818, you're going to need either a longitudinal engine with a transmission that connects directly to the front drive shafts, or a transverse engine from a FWD vehicle. And the initial body will be made to clear the Subaru engine, so I'd check clearances before trying to do a transverse engine.

The difference between AWD and 4WD is a center differental. 4WD systems usually don't have a center diff. Instead, they expect the driver to leave it in 2WD mode most of the time so the front and rear axles can work at different speeds. Then when extra traction is needed, 4WD will drive both axles at the same rate. Good for traction, bad for taking turns.

AWD systems have a center differential that allows the front and rear axles to rotate at different rates so the car can preserve every-day road manners while still have all four wheels driven if needed. Some center diffs are electronic and aren't always engaged, some like the Subaru are always routing power forward and back.

The problem with using your truck driveline is that the front wheels aren't driven directly from the transmission. In a situation like that, you'd have to raise the engine and transmission to allow for the driveshaft from the transfer case to the front axle or differential to clear. You wouldn't be able to fit it all. Subarus use a longitudinal engine and transmission to keep the half shafts equal length which nearly eliminates torque steer. This means that the front drive shaft and differential is actually inside the transmission. So by removing the center differential and putting a solid spool in its place, FFR can remove the rear driveshaft and just drive what were the front driveshafts.

Here's a good picture of the subaru powertrain in the 818 chassis. You can see how much lower the engine and transmission sit in the body compared to your Nissan.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6270&d=1321853193

To use the Rav4, you'd need to somehow remove or weld the center differental, converting it to FWD and then putting the front drivetrain into the 818 somehow. Again, clearances will be awkward. It might be better to sell the Nissan or Toyota and pick up a WRX. You'll know it'll work.

[projectrally]

Packaging AWD into the existing 818 architecture seems fruitless considering the way the engine and transaxle are positioned in the vehicle. At least, with a mechanical AWD system it does. An interesting concept for AWD system for the 818 would be electric motors in the front wheels like Acura's new through-the-road AWD or the Porsche GT3RS-Hybrid.

Packaging would be much easier, but of course the trouble is not only the cost of buying the electric motors and their ancillary components, but making the electrical system work as one cohesive unit.

But I for one don't see the point. The 818 is meant to be a pure, mid-engines sports car, not a complicated, heavy, touring car. If you want AWD in a 2-seat roadster, maybe you should think twice about the 818. You might want to give the Audi TT another look. The TT-S with the turbo 4 and the dual clutch transmission is a pretty nice car. Very very different from the 818, but a nice car nonetheless.

[I_DID]

I guess I came in late to the game.. I checked out the picture provided and they are well past any design changes for a rear engine etc. I honestly thought this was either Mid or front.. makes sense now.

Shame though... awd with that much power to me is amazing... and yes for tracking especially in a wrx, well 2 bad comobos (sorry I think my wrx handles poorly)


Conversely look at another AWD machine setting records.. Nissan GTR. This basically puts the smack down on just about anything coming its way, and dar I say even a F5 cobra. The technology is a major player and groundbreaking in most cases, at least for a street legal car... Another great example is the 911 turbo.


Well, still in love with the idea of this car for sure. I am actually excited the market for my wrx may increase a bit. Bone stock (at least for the next 3 weeks), older driver, treated well and a daily commuter with 48k on the odometer.


Anyways, glad to be a part of this for sure... and who knows, maybe one day my beloved F5 would be good for seed $ with plenty left over for goodies.

Random thought: Anyone remember the K1 attack? For some reason this springs to mind as another kit car with awesome potential. Would be a great benchmark.

[bromikl]

If you still want your AWD Subaru running gear in a tube frame kit, here it is:

http://www.murtayasportscars.co.uk/

I hear they cost twice the price of an 818.

[skullandbones]

I was wondering if the 818 kit which is supposed to be under 10k will be similar to the basic kit on a roadster for instance. That's what I would expect. Has there been any clarification from Dave to get a ballpark finished price (for donor build)? I thought I heard 14k in one of the videos but am not sure if I remember correctly. One thing that still seems unreal to me is that when you ask for a build price on a roadster, it is usually in the 50k range. Mine will be around 22k. Thoughts? WEK.

[Xusia]

I checked out the picture provided and they are well past any design changes for a rear engine etc. I honestly thought this was either Mid or front...

I think you must have looked at the picture wrong. The engine sits FORWARD of the rear axle, so it's definitely a mid engine car.


I was wondering if the 818 kit which is supposed to be under 10k will be similar to the basic kit on a roadster for instance. That's what I would expect. Has there been any clarification from Dave to get a ballpark finished price (for donor build)? I thought I heard 14k in one of the videos but am not sure if I remember correctly. One thing that still seems unreal to me is that when you ask for a build price on a roadster, it is usually in the 50k range. Mine will be around 22k. Thoughts? WEK.

Dave has consistently said one of the goals for the 818 was that it could be complete for $15k. I believe he also qualified that by saying it was for a base roadster type kit, and without a paint job (the panels will come gel coated, so there is no need for paint, though some will almost certainly get a paint job anyway). I would also assume another qualifier to the $15k price is using an older donor, probably with a stock engine. Add options (better shocks & suspension bits, nicer seats, better gauges, etc.), a paint job, newer donor, higher HP engine, etc., and you will likely exceed $15k.

[skullandbones]

From the SEMA picture, I can see the center differential. So the Subi engine/driveline setup is tailor made for the mid engine design. For the GTM you had to convert a transaxle from something else. So the changeover should be very straight forward. I can see how that would keep the price in line. Thanks for the totorial. WEK.

[Oppenheimer]

Conversely look at another AWD machine setting records.. Nissan GTR. This basically puts the smack down on just about anything coming its way, and dar I say even a F5 cobra. The technology is a major player and groundbreaking in most cases, at least for a street legal car...

Did you notice how much that GTR weighs? The antithesis of the 818 concept in many ways.

[Xusia]

And, do you know how complicated the drive train on the GT-R is? VERY. It's got multiple drive shafts because the trans-axle is in the rear. The more complicated something is, the more things that could go wrong. I work with technology for a living, and I'm huge fan of simple. For good reason...

[skullandbones]

I like the FFR concept because it follows the "KISS" line of reasoning. It is really great when you can create something that is good looking and functional but seems pretty simple considering it's capabilities ( I think this may be easier than the roadster). So far, the chassis/engine/drive train that is proposed appears "elegant" for what it is. I hope the finished skin reflects that same feeling. I think it will! WEK.

[Twinspool]

Hey now, the GTR is the fastest parade float I've ever seen. It steers remarkably well considering it should have a rudder instead of a steering wheel.

Ooh, can we get a "warranty void" button on the 818 too? How about rotors and pads that cost more than my student loans?

[Niburu]

My favorite GTR moment was watching one spinout at an autocross on a wide sweeper right in front of my work station.
The fellows I was working with all had the same reaction, "I didn't think that was possible"
The next time around he obviously had all the nannies turned back on, the car was much smoother and quicker with no tires squeeling at all.
The Miata guys were still faster though.

[el_jefe]

Hey now, the GTR is the fastest parade float I've ever seen. It steers remarkably well considering it should have a rudder instead of a steering wheel.

Ooh, can we get a "warranty void" button on the 818 too? How about rotors and pads that cost more than my student loans?

Have you ever priced out the cost of a dealer brake service on a 997 Turbo? Or any other supercar? The GTR drives a hell of a lot better than it should, frankly it feels as though it's defying physics. The thing is, to meet all the safety nanny regulations, and to meet its pricepoint and other targets there just isn't any way around the size.

<--- is tired of people crapping on a car they have never driven, that costs half of its competition (except for the Z06), and has the same issues (maintenance costs, warranty issues) as any other supercar.

[Xusia]

<--- is tired of people crapping on a car they have never driven, that costs half of its competition (except for the Z06), and has the same issues (maintenance costs, warranty issues) as any other supercar.

That's the meat of my criticism: It isn't a supercar (although it certainly appears to be trying), and for the price, it should perform better and not be so complicated (=high maint). But I don't consider the 997 or the Corvette supercars either (I don't want to down a rabbit hole, so I'm stopping there...). In fact, out of all the sub $100k sports cars, the GT-R seems like the worst value to me. Don't get me wrong, I lusted after it too, but after the lust is gone, I'd spend that money on something else I'd be happier with.

[Niburu]

it's not the car Jefe, it's the GTR owners we're laughing at

[Benji]

it's not the car Jefe, it's the GTR owners we're laughing at

Because you're jealous you don't have one?

[Niburu]

Because you're jealous you don't have one?

I have a Miata AND a Porsche 911, what's there to be jealous of?
Both of which are completely nannie free.
See how unbelievably manly I am.

[Oppenheimer]

I can appreciate the value of a good nanny, especially one you can turn off at will. Want to drive my overpowered, fun car to work on a slick, rainy day? Turn on the nannies.

I'm for one am not denegrating the GTR, just pointing out that its a very different animal than the 818. Complex, expensive, heavy.

[Twinspool]

Nissan's engineers were clever and resourceful, the car moves but the price you have to pay is in consumables. You can't cheat Mr. Newton and that car is a bloated hog. In 15-20 years it will be regarded in exactly the same way that the 3000GT VR4 is now. A clutch burning, brake eating, tire chewing semi-fast maintenance hog that has zero racing credibility. At least the RX-7 and 8 can point to the DNA of the 1990 24 hours of Le Mans winner.

[mekeys]

If you still want your AWD Subaru running gear in a tube frame kit, here it is:

http://www.murtayasportscars.co.uk/

I hear they cost twice the price of an 818.

If you want to read more about the UK kit cars go to www.totalkitcar.com

Mel

[el_jefe]

Nissan's engineers were clever and resourceful, the car moves but the price you have to pay is in consumables. You can't cheat Mr. Newton and that car is a bloated hog. In 15-20 years it will be regarded in exactly the same way that the 3000GT VR4 is now. A clutch burning, brake eating, tire chewing semi-fast maintenance hog that has zero racing credibility. At least the RX-7 and 8 can point to the DNA of the 1990 24 hours of Le Mans winner.

*cough*Group A, JGTC, FIA GT*cough*

But yeah, she is a big girl. Which is why I like kit cars, I can bypass all the safety nazis. Rather than build a car that can withstand an impact from a Chevy Suburban, I'd rather have one that can get out of the way.

[Movieman]

*cough*Group A, JGTC, FIA GT*cough*

But yeah, she is a big girl. Which is why I like kit cars, I can bypass all the safety nazis. Rather than build a car that can withstand an impact from a Chevy Suburban, I'd rather have one that can get out of the way.

I agree with you but there is always Murphy's Law and some moron will sometime appear to bend the laws of Physics just to hit you.
When and if that happens I want a car under me that will take the hit.
That is what first drew me to FFR.
I may be pharaphasing but I beleive David Smiths line to his people was:
" Remember a human soul rides in every car we make"

[el_jefe]

I ride motorcycles, I just assume some idiot is going to hit me. . .

again :rolleyes:

[Niburu]

So maybe we need to start insulting the car again, it worked the last time.....

[keys2heaven]

^^

Nah, but I think a monthly update would be prudent. This has got to be a lot of hard work bringing something like this into reality. And with all the tweaks to Rodney's design and the potential to have a body finalized in a couple of months, then it would be nice to know where FFR is at in the process. The holidays could have delayed things a bit as well.

[Niburu]

Have they even said if they've got a running chassis go-kart yet?

[Oppenheimer]

Relax. Dave said there would be a long period of no updates. I can relate to his position, if he tries to throw us a bone and just give us a quick update, he will be peppered with questions, and not responding would be worse than just keeping mum in the first place. We must be patient.

[keys2heaven]

^^

Define "long period of no updates."

A month, 2 months, 6 months? It's relative and my very humble opinion is that monthly updates would be nice.

[NicksPapaw]

Patience young grasshopper, Patience :)

[Niburu]

but I'm tired of knitpicking over the design of the body
I want something new to knitpick over

[D2W]

I think a once-monthly blog by Dave to just let us know what's going on with development would be great. No questions or comments just FFR's progress or lack thereof and Dave's thought's. It would give the handful of us left here watching something new to talk about. (Its been interesting watching this forum die with the lack of information from Dave. There use to be regularly 40 or more people on this sub-forum at a time, now its lucky to have 20.)

[Oppenheimer]

I think they are trying to go heads-down and knock some stuff out. Dave said before the holidays that they would go dark for a spell. How long? He didn't elaborate, but I'd guess its however long it takes them to reach whatever milestone(s) he had in mind. I would think though that it shouldn't be longer than 2 months. I don't think Dave would let us go that long without something.

[RM1SepEx]

My trip to visit and get more detailed photos of the other models triggered where we are now:

A reminder

Dave didn't think ANY of the models would meet their goals when scaled to full size, That's why I posted that photo of him sheilding the models vs more detailed photos...

Ongoing:

In house body shaping of model 4, Jim's design, they were doing MASSIVE changes
They are working with The Rhode Island School of Design to rework / revise Xabier's design
He was working with Rodney too, offline
The contest winner was shelved
They are still considering other designs, timing wise I'm guessing those will be longer term...

Remember the design and Mfg process have to support the no paint panels to meet their goals...

I'm guessing that my 52 years and two teen aged kids have helped to develop more patience... :-)

I expect it may be another couple of months...

HANG IN THERE!

[WIS89]

Hey guys-

Not that my opinion matters, and you are welcome to ignore or disparage me in any way you choose. However, I suspect that our patience will be rewarded with a superior product.

I guess I look at the 818 progress and updates similarly to the way many of us have when we work on our projects, whether our cars, or other similar projects regardless if these projects are for pleasure or work. Quite simply, life gets in the way. I suspect there are many fine folks working very hard, but on multiple priorities, and frankly-- probably shifting priorities, and therefore it's taking a little longer than many would like to get an appreciable update on this project.

There is no malice here, and I suspect that the folks at FF would like to tell us many things. However, I suspect the delay has to do with significant milestones, and other project related issues. My viewpoint is simply that we are likely to see a more refined product, as well as a more exciting design that will likely please most of us a great deal. However, in order to get this, we have to wait a little longer, and I am OK with that.

You all can rip me apart and suggest that I am smoking something for taking this position, and that's fine. I just have faith that when we are updated, that it will be worth the delay! I also suspect that there are valid reasons for the delay, and that we may be made aware of some of those reasons, and never know about others. However, do we really think that we will be let down? I don't, and am ready to give them the benefit of the doubt, despite my desire to see this project sooner rather than later.

OK, I am jumping off my soapbox... fire away if you wish. However, I welcome you to join those of us that are willing to offer some patience in anticipation of an awesome end result. This is just my two cents, and you all can begin your assault at will.

Regards,

Steve

[Xusia]

+1 to the last 2 posts!

[skullandbones]

The keyword as mentioned in 975 and 977, milestone. I don't think Dave will publish anything until there is something to really talk about. He has reiterated that he wants to meet certain focused goals or milestones. One of the most important is coming up.

I think he wants to avoid what I hate when I am at work in the middle of a project and someone comments or critiques my work before I am ready to show it off. In some cases, they don't even know where you are going with it but there is still an opinion. JMO. WEK.

[skullandbones]

The keyword as mentioned in 975 and 977, milestone. I don't think Dave will publish anything until there is something to really talk about. He has reiterated that he wants to meet certain focused goals or milestones. One of the most important is coming up.

I think he wants to avoid what I hate when I am at work in the middle of a project and someone comments or critiques my work before I am ready to show it off. In some cases, they don't even know where you are going with it but there is still an opinion. JMO. WEK.

[Niburu]

I think he wants to avoid what I hate when I am at work in the middle of a project and someone comments or critiques my work before I am ready to show it off. In some cases, they don't even know where you are going with it but there is still an opinion. JMO. WEK.

Very true, but at the same time it's something everyone in the 818 Forum is good at - stating opinions, making commentary, or delivering critques.

[Silvertop]

I think a once-monthly blog by Dave to just let us know what's going on with development would be great. No questions or comments just FFR's progress or lack thereof and Dave's thought's. It would give the handful of us left here watching something new to talk about. (Its been interesting watching this forum die with the lack of information from Dave. There use to be regularly 40 or more people on this sub-forum at a time, now its lucky to have 20.)

I suspect that this subforum isn't really dying. The fact that there isn't much exciting news from FFR right now probably just means that many of the regular participants are simply not signing on as often, mostly because there really is no need. When there is something to talk about, they'll come flooding back. Most everybody is still out there -- Just lurking quietly.

Personally, I echo the sentiments of those forum members who recognize that sometimes no news is good news. That the FFR people are quiet because they are working hard to get the project to a point where there is something of significance to tell us.

I'll sit quietly and wait for a March bombshell........ :)

[Dave Smith]

Guys,

I've been HUGELY (is that a word?) waylaid with business matters and the guys are making good progress on the 818. The fact is that I am in the final days of a year-long effort to buy the remainder of the company from my partner-brother. The downside has been that I have been a virtual mole in my office and dealing with lawyers and banks. This effort is almost done and the regular and important updates to the 818 will resume. I'm sorry about this and sorta warned a bit of a dry spell was ahead. I know of 100 projects that are going on simultaneously but at this stage there isnt much 818 news to report. I think this forum/traffic section will pick up as we approach production and provide more substantial news. The guys are making good headway.

[keys2heaven]

^^

Thanks Dave. Here's to a successful wrap up of your acquisition!

Weather is going to start getting warmer and I'm getting a fever of 818 degrees! It just might set my hair on fire. :)

[Xusia]

Lol

[D2W]

I suspect that this subforum isn't really dying.

You're right, dying was the wrong word. Hibernating is more appropriate.

[Silvertop]

You're right, dying was the wrong word. Hibernating is more appropriate.

Well, that's fair enough!:)

[Silvertop]

You're right, dying was the wrong word. Hibernating is more appropriate.

Well, that's fair enough!:)

[RM1SepEx]

Hibernation leaves me more time to clear out/up existing projects! :-)

I'm sure that the buy out is both complex and mentaly exhausting, as an engineer as well I'm much better at and more comfortable working "project" issues vs. interpersonal ones...

Hang in there Dave, we look forward to some awesome news in the Spring! (my timing "guess" not Dave's!)

off my soap box and back to a combination of tax and FAFSA prep and finishing my 1990/1994 1.8 Miata engine swap, suspension update...

snowing outside winter may have actually arrived here in the Northeast

Dan

[thestigwins]

Dave, I have a suggestion.. Can you make a new thread that is just for updates on the build from you. Lock it down so only you can post in it and then sticky the thread to the top of the 818 forums.


Thanks,

Grant

[jimgood]

Grant, you read my mind (or I read yours). I was just going to post the same thing.

I'd also like to request that this be on the forum, not on FaceBook, please.

[G-Man_STI]

Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum and tried reading this thread in its entirety but my eyes started to glaze over after 12 pages or so. I'm sure it was discussed about the open diff in the 5 speed?

[Draco-REX]

Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum and tried reading this thread in its entirety but my eyes started to glaze over after 12 pages or so. I'm sure it was discussed about the open diff in the 5 speed?
There are no plans for FFR to supply a LSD due to price constraints. But there are a lot of aftermarket options. The OBS front LSD is inexpensive compared to its competition, but requires some inexpensive,though labor-intensive, upgrades to make it reasonably reliable.

[thestigwins]

Bump, Dave we miss hearing from you! :D

[peffem]

Dave, Grant has a great idea, a sticky post with just your updates to the 818 progress reports from you and FFR staft.
Ed

[Cooluser23]

Dave, Grant has a great idea, a sticky post with just your updates to the 818 progress reports from you and FFR staft.
Ed
+1 much faster to read.

[Dave Smith]

The suggestion of a dedicated update page is a solid idea and I'll start one. We have our Moochfest (winter open house) this weekend and I was going to give a breif update on where we are with the project. I have to do a reception Friday evening and we are trying to launch our new website before Moochfest so cramming it all together might give you guys a better idea of where we are and where we are going with a more accurate timeline. I know it's gone dark on the 818. Part of that was by design and part was due to just a swarm of projects and a lack of time to go back and forth on decisions that I decided to make unilaterally. You guys have been patient and great. The ideas and suggestions and questions on the 818 have made a tremendous difference in the direction, design, and development of the car, even if that isnt readily appearant. Like always, thanks for the help. Dave

[kach22i]

............... and we are trying to launch our new website
Oh oh, let's hope you have better luck than Audiogon, that has been a disaster for them.

[hakalugi]

subscribed... yes, late to the party, but i read all two dozen pages in a few days.

I bought a FFR manual 10 yrs ago, with the hope of someday building one. then the gtm stole my heart. now a smaller/cheaper kit has my attention. I've owned american v8 muscle, but my current DailyDriver is a 2.5L turbo Subaru OBXT which i love, and it's the 3rd subie in my family. Even with an open diff and RWD only, this is going to be exciting. I too think that orange/black rendering on the final pages is (.)(.)

Glad to hear rumors, on another feedback thread, that the in-house choice was being reworked, especially if it may be the production platform - it did remind me too much of an MR2 on the sides, nothing personal against Jim's design, just an observation.

I watched the ustream broadcast. the in-person feedback went for "track version first". I'll cast my community vote for a targa top model first. one of the drags of a roadster is no realistic dailyDriver factor, or even coupla-days-a-week-driver with the weather being non-sandiego. storage for the targa top is key, if i was willing to leave my top at home, i'd just get a true roadster.

and yes, the track community is fervent, but even the targa version stipped down will be raced, and with an all weather-sealed cabin, you open yourself up to a larger buying base.

I also find the high MPG diesel concept very attractive, a 190HP TDI in a 2000 pound car will still be loads of fun on the roads. my OBXT with it's 265 HP and my normal (ahem) driving gets me way under 20MPG on avg. Having a smaller/lighter car with better performance and at 2-3x the MPG would be awesome, and allow younger guys like us, with kids still at home to justify it with the warden :)

Anyways, thanks for the update(s) Dave and co. looking forward to (finally) becoming a member of the FF family.

[mekeys]

I need to see them all in the same color before I could choose one..Any color but black..

Mel