818 Project Updates From Dave

[shinn497]

+1 to that!

Me too I didn't take notice of it before this pic. Something about it made it seem small and quaint, but side by side it is very very intriguing...

[Steve91T]

One comment on the way it may be visually heavy. I personally would rather have people blown away that my car is ONLY 1800 lbs than have to explain why its so heavy (if its made to look light). I like the look of the cars. They look substantial, like something that looks like a real car, not a grown ups go cart.

My opinion
Steve

[Doc_FFR]

Dave, somebody else already suggested it so I'm just repeating. When you have the unveil is it possible to have a 1/4 scale person with the cars so it is easier to judge proportions?
Could you have a quarter-size wookiee next to the car too? Maybe just a regular sized ewok. Yeah, an ewok should work.

[ScottKoschwitz]

I wasn't a big fan of the roadster when the judging results were announced (I likened it to a convertible Hyundai would build), but I have to say it looks better in this shot.

I always thought the Olmos design was interesting, but it didn't really appeal to me. I like cars that look more organic (sleek, flowing, and muscular) than mechanical (straight lines and sharp creases). However, I like the sense of bulk (in a good sense) in his design, and, in the picture above, the flow of the rear quarter to the back, and across the rear to the other side.

Dave hasn't confirmed anything yet, but my hunch is that the 818 open house will be scheduled soon.

[Tpa65cpe]

THANK YOU !!! Mr Smith for these new shots of the 818(s) side by side. By the way I liked the OLmos design in black but it looks KLLER in the royal blue!!! I hjave been in love with the 65 Coupe since I first found this site (2004) and have been trying to get finances straight to purchase one but after that photo I just changed my mind (think eye twitch,grin past the ears,and lightheaded due to blood rushing to other part of body) !!!! If you produce that coupe all interest will definitly be there!!!

[Tpa65cpe]

THANK YOU !!! Mr Smith for these new shots of the 818(s) side by side. By the way I liked the OLmos design in black but it looks KLLER in the royal blue!!! I hjave been in love with the 65 Coupe since I first found this site (2004) and have been trying to get finances straight to purchase one but after that photo I just changed my mind (think eye twitch,grin past the ears,and lightheaded due to blood rushing to other part of body) !!!! If you produce that coupe all interest will definitly be there!!! Kudos go out to MAD DOG for a really great rear shot!!!

[Draco-REX]

I always preferred the 2nd place entry. And after seeing the tail that goes with the nose, I like it even more. It's not the most aerodynamic, but just looks BA.

[ArtGirl]

Dave: its a 'fro, not dreadlocks, but I'd be happy for you to light it on fire.

Olpro: is there a universal color for models in this stage? Something that shows off the curves without blowing highlights or saturating shadows?

Silver. Industry standard.

[dclin]

Love the concept 2/Olmos design; it manages to evoke cars of the past like the Cobra coupe and roadster, yet still have a fresh, modern feel. If the FF can keep the proportions from the design submission, I'll definitely be building one of these.

[adesilva]

Cant say im a fan of the coupe.. even though I much prefer a coupe (being from MA and weather changing in seconds).. it just looks strange to me.. not high end exotic but just something totally different you wouldnt expect to see on the road.. not sure how i feel about it.

[Slaughter]

Hurry up and take my money.

[kach22i]

I like the way the FFR team resolved the transitional planes and curves on the rear deck of concept 2/Olmos design (blue car). There was a little quirkiness in the original design, it's all sorted out now.

I thought for sure that the first place design (black car with open top) would be the one converted into a coupe (would also have to change windshield inward tapper). I've been wrong before, there ya go.

The giant wheels help preserve the original spirit of these designs without a lot of major redesigning. I think a lot of headaches and heartaches were prevented, smart move.

They look great, I'm surprised to see them at all though. Thought they were to be 1/4 scale only to start with. This new supplier is kind of a miracle worker, I'm in awe.

EDIT:
Found this picture, seems to fit the current situation (in a good way).
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/125505-more-random-pics-1899.html
4965

[Drew2.0]

The rear on the blue coupe looks good, model actually looks better than the the draft... I agree with Nelff the rear diffuser section looking out of place/ the silver pieces look like hard drives... Also I would like to say Dave you're the man! I'm pretty sure what ever the end product it will be a stunner.

[Drew2.0]

Kach big wheels are awesome! And I'm with you on that- I hope the final product leaves room for aggressive wheel fitment and offset, I read somewhere else in the forum that it would be limited to wheels specs as on previous subie models (donor car) I hope not cause we will be stuck with 17x7... I want the option to go 19x12 in the back! below is my design rocking huge wheels, he he
http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsl53bRZLP1r2i8u5o1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId =AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1317988455&Signature=cm7He9l%2F3ztpH8C5xEmh0CLNm0g%3D

[kach22i]

Kach big wheels are awesome!

The Chrysler Crossfire pulled off the big wheel thing very well. However I'm not sure if the car enthusiast crowd completely accepted it as a sports car though.

It takes more than big wheels to make a sporty car, but I'm sure that everybody here already respects that. The giant spinner crowd, this is not.

[16g-95gsx]

Did anyone note that the Blue one is a hardtop?

[apexanimal]

a boosted ford engine would be interesting as a tdi alternative... could be made to give some serious power too...


+1 for all models in silver/grey...

[thebeerbaron]

Did anyone note that the Blue one is a hardtop?

I believe Mad Dog mentioned it when he posted the pics, or Dave mentioned it afterwards. The question is why was that one the coupe? It doesn't look like a fuel-efficient shape to me, if the coupe were destined for the gas-sipper.

[Steve91T]

I believe Mad Dog mentioned it when he posted the pics, or Dave mentioned it afterwards. The question is why was that one the coupe? It doesn't look like a fuel-efficient shape to me, if the coupe were destined for the gas-sipper.

I think because there are people who want a hard top, like me. I think there's going to be a roadster, coupe, something else (maybe track only), and then the super slippery high mileage TDI.

Steve

[crackedcornish]

I think because there are people who want a hard top, like me. I think there's going to be a roadster, coupe, something else (maybe track only), and then the super slippery high mileage TDI.

Steve

and I'm hoping at least one of them won't look like it's sticking it's rear end up in the air.....what's up with all these designs having the back of the car so high???

[Drew2.0]

"rear end up in the air" tends to be a trait of mid engine platforms... I personally like it, its a feminine quality if you know what I mean ;)

[Dave Smith]

Concept 4 (posted by Dave Hodgkins) has a fairly low and wide rear. Keep in mind that these designs (at least the first 4 that we are unveiling.. the 5th is probably not going to make the SEMA deadline) these designs pretty much all lend themselves to hardtop, soft top, and in two cases a good targa design. Sticking to a simple roadster launch with elemental soft top is a likely start point, but the end game is still to market some very distinct models using the shared platform. The low drag/low frontal area/coupe requirement of a hyper mpg car is as important as a track car and a rock-star roadster... also the ford di stuff is very exciting on the eco-side and I have a DIRECT line to some unbelievable R&D at Ford with this eco-boost engine line.

[Dave Smith]

I also want to remind you guys that as many of you are focusing on the car, I am almost more fixated on the proocess of the development. I think that once the initail 818 is launched, be it an affordable roadster/soft top at first (likely), or a track car etc, the truth is that the same body development process that was so challenging because I gave the community such open parameters, can be narrowly focused on a low CofD car body. Take into consideration that Solidworks and their latest versions/add-ons can do human scaling and ergos as well as flowanalysis and you might see why Im so excited. Rapid model development even if these initial models dont hit every category Ive wanted.

[Justen]

I think they both look great! I like the roadster better but I think I would have to go with the Coupe for practicality living in RI where the weather changes 5 times a day.
Either way, Great Job on the designs!

[crackedcornish]

Concept 4 (posted by Dave Hodgkins) has a fairly low and wide rear. Keep in mind that these designs (at least the first 4 that we are unveiling.. the 5th is probably not going to make the SEMA deadline) these designs pretty much all lend themselves to hardtop, soft top, and in two cases a good targa design. Sticking to a simple roadster launch with elemental soft top is a likely start point, but the end game is still to market some very distinct models using the shared platform. The low drag/low frontal area/coupe requirement of a hyper mpg car is as important as a track car and a rock-star roadster... also the ford di stuff is very exciting on the eco-side and I have a DIRECT line to some unbelievable R&D at Ford with this eco-boost engine line.

I suppose it wouldn't look to high if you could delete the headrest fairings. sorry just not a fan of them, maybe make optional engine covers so builders can pick and choose (besides a smooth rear cowl would make adding/sealing a top easier)

Dave, would you happen to know how much clearance there would be between the top mounted intercooler and the body on say, the first place design yet?

As most people who were talking about the spec racer were saying that it probably should run a normally aspirated engine, any chance the track body will be redesigned around one, so it can have a minimum of body work and be a much sleeker body visually

[BipDBo]

This is very exciting. Every thing I've seen so far looks great. I also enjoy looking through the design submissions. There's a lot of good stuff there. Even when the sketch work isn't very good, you can tell what the artist had in mind.

Dave, from the beginning of this contest, I had in mind that what you were looking for was an open roadster with probably no doors and no windshield. You said, something like the Aerial Atom, but with a bit more body so as not to be terrifying to drive on the highway. It wasn't until much later during the competition that we got an idea of the verastility that was intended. I see some beautiful roadsters that would make great daily drivers, but I haven't seen anything like the Aerial Atom or the Lotus 211 so far. Is there, hiding away from cameras somewhere, such a lightweight track monster?

[Someday I Suppose]

Dave, wondering if you could comment some on the color plan. I guess I have been wondering from a supply standpoint how far out you will build and hold bodies in inventory.

I guess what I am getting at I am wondering if the body lay-up process is short enough will you be able to manufacture bodies to order which would allow you to offer a pretty broad range of colors / body styles without having to have 1000 bodies sitting in the racks.

-Scott

[Dave Smith]

Color plan is up in the air right now. As far as intercooler sapce, there is alot of considerations for the running gear and fitment of variables as this, especially in track form for downforce, cooling ducts etc. I also think the open chassis design (atom) is not dead, but the early decisions were, based on some design submissions, that we couldnt focus enough market interest in that configuration. Still we can make cahnges, but the next nodes will follow hard and fast with production decisons and timelines coming after body selection and at least initial model green light.

[olpro]

They look great, I'm surprised to see them at all though. Thought they were to be 1/4 scale only to start with. This new supplier is kind of a miracle worker, I'm in awe.
Kach, take another look at that photo. They ARE 1/4 scales, on a table, cleverly lined up with the background.
Very convincing.

[Steve91T]

Kach, take another look at that photo. They ARE 1/4 scales, on a table, cleverly lined up with the background.
Very convincing.

That is hilarious....I thought they were full size also.

[mentatbashar]

http://www.factoryfive.com/images/ffforum/818concepts.jpg
Spy shot of concept 1 roadster and concept 2 coupe scale models.

Jim - Dave said it was ok. Sorry!

Please please please tell me those wheels will be a part of the kit package!!

[16g-95gsx]

That is hilarious....I thought they were full size also.

Add me to the list of folks who thought they were looking at full scale models on a shop floor.

[kach22i]

This one fooled me too, I'm such a sap sometimes.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=171&attachmentid=4392

[mekeys]

Right in the comment no. 485, of the picture showing the two rear ends.It says scale models..

Mel

[Inthenameofweez]

DAVE THIS IS AWESOME.

I also agree with a lighter and neutral gray/silver to show the body lines in the same hue. Also, the black accents will still be visible.

I'm itching with excitement to meet you and these beautiful creations in November. How are we supposed to choose when all of the designs are so blindingly stunning?

[shinn497]

That is hilarious....I thought they were full size also.

I was wondering when people would figure that out. You can tell becahse some of the lines are softer. Also "vertical sivler things" on the coupe are exhausts. exhausts.

[mentatbashar]

I'm in if those wheels on either model come standard in the kit!! :D

[AVIONX]

Kach, take another look at that photo. They ARE 1/4 scales, on a table, cleverly lined up with the background.
Very convincing.Dude!!! They totally got me too. And I've looked at them like 200 times :) Very CLever

[Draco-REX]

I was wondering when people would figure that out. You can tell becahse some of the lines are softer. Also "vertical sivler things" on the coupe are exhausts. exhausts.
Yup. They match the brake ducts in the front to create a continuity in the design.

[Silvertop]

Dude!!! They totally got me too. And I've looked at them like 200 times :) Very CLever

Snookered me too. I'm guessing that probably got most of us. Nice catch, Olpro. I guess that shows why you really are the "ol' pro".

[D2W]

Yup. They match the brake ducts in the front to create a continuity in the design.

One aspect of the car that I do not like at all. The rest rocks.

[BipDBo]

Color plan is up in the air right now. As far as intercooler sapce, there is alot of considerations for the running gear and fitment of variables as this, especially in track form for downforce, cooling ducts etc. I also think the open chassis design (atom) is not dead, but the early decisions were, based on some design submissions, that we couldnt focus enough market interest in that configuration. Still we can make cahnges, but the next nodes will follow hard and fast with production decisons and timelines coming after body selection and at least initial model green light.

Dave, here are some thoughts for your consideration. You've probably already considered all of these issues, but in the spirit of open source design, here's my two cents:

I am hoping that you are planning to keep the existing WRX top mounted intercooler position. Moving it would increase building cost, time and weight. Also, the top mount minimizes the duct length and longer duct creates more turbo lag. The downside to the top mount would be heat soak. To help out with this, what do you think about having an opening or vent near the top of the "transom" to allow convection to bring hot air out of the engine bay? Even better, leave the majority of the rear of the car open so that the guy you just passed can admire your boxer.

Getting air into the intercooler is a bit more difficult on the 818 than it is on the WRX. Many designs featured intakes right in front of the rear wheel, but I'm a little partial to an intake on the B-pillar, like the Miura. Here, it is higher off the ground so as to take in less dirt and rain water.

As for downforce, it's easy to get it on the rear wheel with the addition of a spoiler. Driving the front wheels down is the tricky part, and having a low, sloped hood is crucial. Having the radiator discharge out of the top of the hood is also important. When I did my design, air flow directed nearly every decision. I designed it exactly per the template, except for one change I made to allow for a lower hood. I tilted the radiator forward a bit. I assumed that this could be done considering that the radiator on the GTM is sloped very far forward. I made my front bumper tall enough to allow for a European licence plate.

[Steve91T]

Dave, here are some thoughts for your consideration. You've probably already considered all of these issues, but in the spirit of open source design, here's my two cents:

I am hoping that you are planning to keep the existing WRX top mounted intercooler position. Moving it would increase building cost, time and weight. Also, the top mount minimizes the duct length and longer duct creates more turbo lag. The downside to the top mount would be heat soak. To help out with this, what do you think about having an opening or vent near the top of the "transom" to allow convection to bring hot air out of the engine bay? Even better, leave the majority of the rear of the car open so that the guy you just passed can admire your boxer.

Getting air into the intercooler is a bit more difficult on the 818 than it is on the WRX. Many designs featured intakes right in front of the rear wheel, but I'm a little partial to an intake on the B-pillar, like the Miura. Here, it is higher off the ground so as to take in less dirt and rain water.

As for downforce, it's easy to get it on the rear wheel with the addition of a spoiler. Driving the front wheels down is the tricky part, and having a low, sloped hood is crucial. Having the radiator discharge out of the top of the hood is also important. When I did my design, air flow directed nearly every decision. I designed it exactly per the template, except for one change I made to allow for a lower hood. I tilted the radiator forward a bit. I assumed that this could be done considering that the radiator on the GTM is sloped very far forward. I made my front bumper tall enough to allow for a European licence plate.


My experience with intercooler pipe length is that it doesn't really matter. Unless you're adding 6 feet of length, you won't notice the lag, because it really won't add anything at all. Look at the rear mount turbo kits out there.

What really matters, and what you WILL notice is heat soak. Mounting the IC where it will get plenty of cool air won't add much at all to the cost.

The problem with getting air from the top of the car is it's a low pressure area. Not much air to be had. From the bottom or the sides is where it'll be most effective.

Sitting on top of a hot engine is not a good place at all for an IC, no matter how much air you try to bring in from the top.

Steve

[BipDBo]

My experience with intercooler pipe length is that it doesn't really matter. Unless you're adding 6 feet of length, you won't notice the lag, because it really won't add anything at all. Look at the rear mount turbo kits out there.

What really matters, and what you WILL notice is heat soak. Mounting the IC where it will get plenty of cool air won't add much at all to the cost.

The problem with getting air from the top of the car is it's a low pressure area. Not much air to be had. From the bottom or the sides is where it'll be most effective.

Sitting on top of a hot engine is not a good place at all for an IC, no matter how much air you try to bring in from the top.

Steve

It seemed to me from what Dave said that they were considering moving it to the front. I believe that would cause significant turbo lag. Since this car is so light, turbo lag will be more of an issue than normal. The car might accelerate faster than the turbo. I don't see why heat soak would be any more of a problem with the 818 as it is with the WRX. The problem should be lessened in the 818 because there is no fire wall behind the engine, so there is a larger volume of air in the engine cavity and more opportunity to vent it out.

[305mouse]

My experience with intercooler pipe length is that it doesn't really matter. Unless you're adding 6 feet of length, you won't notice the lag, because it really won't add anything at all. Look at the rear mount turbo kits out there.

On a V8 with a rear mount turbo you won't notice the lag. On a 2.0 liter 4 banger, you bet you'll notice the lag. Also, a FMIC with the oem td04 turbo will be a disaster. A larger turbo, like an 18g or so will compliment a FMIC quite well. I think it goes back to the individual who's building it and what they want out of it.

I'm going to play around with using a twin scroll in a different location since I think we'll have the room to move it. Think the newer Legacy GT location.

[Steve91T]

Don't forget that that big V8 with a rear turbo also requires a much larger turbo to feed it.

I'm going to use the MR2 turbo as an example again, because I'm very familiar with them, and they have a similar situation. Heat soak has always been a huge issue with the MR2. No matter what you do with the IC, and how you duct it, getting the proper air flow is a problem. Space is also an issue. Because there isn't enough room for a large front mount, a small, but thick IC is used, which isn't as efficient. Serious MR2 guys use Powerstroke IC that they mount in the trunk. This adds pipe length, but the lack of heat soak makes up for it.

Also, I never said that you wouldn't notice the lag if a front engine 4cyl car had a rear mounted turbo. I used the rear mount turbo as an example.

Getting enough air to the IC on the 818 is going to be an challenge.

Stee

[kach22i]

There is always more than one way to solve a problem.

http://www.velocetoday.com/archives/263
5061

[PhyrraM]

Reverse flow. Don't get stuck on forcing air through the top of the intercooler.

High pressure engine bay will only require a simple vent over the intercooler for a very suprising amount of air across it.

[kach22i]

Reverse flow. Don't get stuck on forcing air through the top of the intercooler.

High pressure engine bay will only require a simple vent over the intercooler for a very suprising amount of air across it.

How would you create a "high pressure engine bay"?

[BipDBo]

How would you create a "high pressure engine bay"?

Engine bays tend to be high pressure by nature, because the large front opening receives ram air at high speed, and the air has to find its way out. For an engine bay up front, the air usually exits under the car. Unfortunately, this all usually creates uplift in the front wheels. Getting air into a rear engine bay isn't as easy.

[kach22i]

Getting air into a rear engine bay isn't as easy.
That's exactly what I was thinking.

[crackedcornish]

There is always more than one way to solve a problem.

http://www.velocetoday.com/archives/263
5061

I get this message at the link:

To continue reading, you must be a VeloceToday Premium Subscriber.

[kach22i]

I get this message at the link:

To continue reading, you must be a VeloceToday Premium Subscriber.

Sorry about that, the link should still work if the image does not show up for some reason. I'll try attaching the image in lieu of hot-linking.

I was looking for a Ferio with an aftermarket periscope snorkel intake, but this old Alfa is way cooler, which is why I posted it.

Alfa Romeo T33
5075

[Twinspool]

NACA vent and ducting, fan, IC airflow problems all done. steal the water sprayer from an STI if you're paranoid.

And this talk about IC piping increasing lag? Even with 60mm piping the volume added is negligible compared to what the engine is gulping at 6000rpm. If'n one was motivated to look instead of speculating, those parameters can all be calculated. Hmm.

[Steve91T]

I think the best option for air flow is taking air from under the car, ducting it upwards, through the IC, and out the top of the engine bay. This obviously wouldn't work if the IC is sitting on top of the engine.

Steve

[PhyrraM]

In the OEM location the I/C is above the bellhousing area of the transmission.

Rotating tires create high pressure that will bleed into the engine area. Most of the designs have side vents that will provide air to the engine area. And most car undersides are also high pressure areas.

Most rear decks will be a low pressure area that can be used to pull air out of the engine area.

Almost every mid-engined car has accomodations to relieve engine bay pressure. Fiero, MR2, X1/9 all have vented engine covers. All of those have front radiators and still build rear engine bay pressure. Most of the exotics have the same, or a vented rear panel. Put that naturally occuring flow to work.

I'm not saying it will be, or has to be, that way - but with careful attention during the design phase, I'm pretty certain it would be easier (and more subtle) to design small details that accentuate a naturally occuring flow than to design something that has to overcome a reverse flow.

[kach22i]

I'm pretty certain it would be easier (and more subtle) to design small details that accentuate a naturally occuring flow than to design something that has to overcome a reverse flow.
Aren't you saying air flow comes out of the top?

If so, then are you proposing or promoting going with the flow, and in effect reversing the flow when compared to the original front engined model?

Will the intercooler work with reverse air flow?

[kach22i]

"rear end up in the air" tends to be a trait of mid engine platforms... I personally like it, its a feminine quality if you know what I mean ;)
Every time I read this I think of the Porsche Boxster and think it's not true.

http://www.porschetuningmag.com/techart-porsche-boxster-and-cayman/techart-porsche-boxster-side-2/
5086


Please provide an example of what you mean other than the contest entries.

[Admiral Doom]

Side scoops, b-pillar scoops, and the fact that the air rushing over the vent on top creates a low-pressure zone combine to provide ample airflow

[Ks2]

since the fuel tank isnt under the seat perhaps there is enough room for a large intercooler mounted underneath the seats, air is brought in from underneath the car and vented out the back or top (or wherever) much the same tube routing as in the standard front mount intercoolers for the 02-07 though i dont think we could get that lucky (unless that has been the plan all along)

[PhyrraM]

Aren't you saying air flow comes out of the top?

If so, then are you proposing or promoting going with the flow, and in effect reversing the flow when compared to the original front engined model?

Will the intercooler work with reverse air flow?

Exactly, and yes it would work fine.

[kach22i]

Exactly, and yes it would work fine.
Won't all the heat of the engine below also be pulled upward though the intercooler?

Isn't the outside air at ambient temperature what the the intercooler is designed to deal with?

Maybe someone good with numbers can push some around for us.

[Steve91T]

Won't all the heat of the engine below also be pulled upward though the intercooler?

Isn't the outside air at ambient temperature what the the intercooler is designed to deal with?

Maybe someone good with numbers can push some around for us.

If it's done properly, it won't be an issue. Here's a picture of me playing around with a top mount IC location for my MR2 that I had. The stock location was on the right of the engine bay, next to the side vent opening.

With the top mount, I took some aluminum ducting from Lowes, scooped air from the side vent, and had it blowing directly on the IC.

It never heat soaked. If I had proper ducting, it would have worked even better.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v199/Steve91T/Other%20pics/enginebay.jpg

[thebeerbaron]

One issue I've just thought of (and it's early in the morning, so obviously I haven't completely thought this through...)

the stock intercooler is tilted at an angle that lets air travel from the scoop down through the intercooler and out towards the back of the trans. The plates/fins of the intercooler look something like this \ when looking at it from the side. If air is going to come up through the intercooler and exit the top of the engine bay, it's likely going to come in from the front and exit towards the rear, like this / . Moving the intercooler around to accomplish that is going to require modifications to the intercooler piping, which was one of the things this placement was designed to avoid.

I like re-using donor parts, and I like the short charge-pipe length of the stock setup. Not sure how it's going to work though...

[PhyrraM]

When the car is stationary, then the engine area air will warm up. Possibly alot. However, this is no different than the stock WRX. In fact hot air rises through the intecooler on the WRX at rest.

However, when moving, the constant flow of air should have that much time to heat up - Espcially with a bit of shielding in place. The OEM exhaust manifold, up-pipe, turbo and downpipe shielding acually pretty good. Many guys swap to unshielded aftermarket parts, but that's on them at that point.

With the radiator mounted up front, and a properly shielded exhaust path, most of the heat issues should go away with even minimal flow of fresh air. Add an intercooler sealed on top to a low pressure deck, and I don't think ducting on the rear will even be needed.

As far as the intercooler being slanted the wrong way..? We are talking airflow, so I can't see that change of flow direction to be a big deal.

[thebeerbaron]

On my phone, fingers too fat for long explanations. Path of least resistance. With the bars of the intercooler pointing like this \, air will need to come up and forward, which it won't do if there's an easier way, which there will be unless its a very good duct...

[PhyrraM]

True, but that's where a decent seal comes into play. If there is only one low pressure path to take, then it will go there.

Of course, I'm not an engineer. But that's what makes sense to me and what I have seen done on other OEM applications....albeit without intercoolers, just airflow management.

[olpro]

When the car is stationary, then the engine area air will warm up. Possibly alot. However, this is no different than the stock WRX. In fact hot air rises through the intecooler on the WRX at rest.


I remember sitting in on a test for cooling (at GM) and they said the worst overheating situations involved: trailer pulling, going up a mountain, idling in front of and close to a garage door. So they set up a test with the load of pulling a trailer up Pikes Peak then pulling up real close to a garage door and letting the already hot engine idle. This spiked the coolant temp more than anything else as the air flow goes in kind of a circular flow through the radiator, down to the ground and forward, up the garage door and back through the radiator - all at a high ambient temperature of course.

[BipDBo]

When the car is stationary, then the engine area air will warm up. Possibly alot. However, this is no different than the stock WRX. In fact hot air rises through the intecooler on the WRX at rest.

However, when moving, the constant flow of air should have that much time to heat up - Espcially with a bit of shielding in place. The OEM exhaust manifold, up-pipe, turbo and downpipe shielding acually pretty good. Many guys swap to unshielded aftermarket parts, but that's on them at that point.

With the radiator mounted up front, and a properly shielded exhaust path, most of the heat issues should go away with even minimal flow of fresh air. Add an intercooler sealed on top to a low pressure deck, and I don't think ducting on the rear will even be needed.

As far as the intercooler being slanted the wrong way..? We are talking airflow, so I can't see that change of flow direction to be a big deal.

Well put. Heat soak hapens when the car s at rest. Because the 818 has the radiator up front, thi issue should just about go away. The fact that the engine bay has more volume should help too. Therefore, the intercoller should work better than it does on the WRX.

The only trick left is adequate ducting to get air to it while the car is moving. If the stock top position is kept, the duct will add some resistance, butthis should be offset somewhat by the fact that the air going through the intercooler will discharge into an engine bay that is at a lower static pressure due to the fact that it is in the back of the car.

[adesilva]

Has anything been released yet in regards to build difficulty?

Ill admit I am not the most mechanically inclined person other than doing standard maintenance. Ive done the obvious oil changes, brakes, etc but of course nothing to this level. A majority of the work ive done is in relation to installing audio systems in cars. Id imagine nobody can ever really have all the experience in the world before ever doing something like this but its always nice to hear that you don't need to be a car guru to get it done.

I had considered a gtm in the past but sadly was not able to justify the costs. Thankfully my business has been doing well enough lately that I have been able to put some savings aside for the 818 (assuming they can stick to roughly the 15k barrier mentioned)

I do not have an incredible amount of space in my garage to be housing an extra vehicle while I strip it down so I think I may end up trying to purchase a parts bundle once someone makes one ( I have seen multiple for the gtm on ebay). I think that would allow me to save a good amount of time as well as save some room.

I know that Factory Five gives a manual along with the kit so that should certainly help but I have also read on these forums many tasks which have confused even the most veteran of builders. I know its probably impossible to judge before everything is really finalized but I am really hoping that it will be something I can handle. This is not to say that I expect to do everything on my own either of course (I thankfully have a good mechanic that would probably help me with the most difficult tasks and some friends who are thankfully happy to help)... I am just excited to hear more information so hopefully in the next 4-6 months I can begin trying to plan how things will go and coordinate time towards the project.

[Draco-REX]

Has anything been released yet in regards to build difficulty?

Ill admit I am not the most mechanically inclined person other than doing standard maintenance. Ive done the obvious oil changes, brakes, etc but of course nothing to this level. A majority of the work ive done is in relation to installing audio systems in cars. Id imagine nobody can ever really have all the experience in the world before ever doing something like this but its always nice to hear that you don't need to be a car guru to get it done.

I had considered a gtm in the past but sadly was not able to justify the costs. Thankfully my business has been doing well enough lately that I have been able to put some savings aside for the 818 (assuming they can stick to roughly the 15k barrier mentioned)

I do not have an incredible amount of space in my garage to be housing an extra vehicle while I strip it down so I think I may end up trying to purchase a parts bundle once someone makes one ( I have seen multiple for the gtm on ebay). I think that would allow me to save a good amount of time as well as save some room.

I know that Factory Five gives a manual along with the kit so that should certainly help but I have also read on these forums many tasks which have confused even the most veteran of builders. I know its probably impossible to judge before everything is really finalized but I am really hoping that it will be something I can handle. This is not to say that I expect to do everything on my own either of course (I thankfully have a good mechanic that would probably help me with the most difficult tasks and some friends who are thankfully happy to help)... I am just excited to hear more information so hopefully in the next 4-6 months I can begin trying to plan how things will go and coordinate time towards the project.
From what I understand, the kit should not require any welding skills or equipment. (Though any deviations from the instructions would) But brake lines will need to be bent, wire harnesses made, etc.

The good news is that there is a Build School where you can get hands-on training assembling a FFR roadster. There's even a credit towards your kit purchase for attending.

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/build/school/mott.html

[adesilva]

I have taken a look into that a few times actually. I have contemplated it for awhile assuming that anything I do there would be helpful towards the 818 even if it isn't the same kit.

This forum has thankfully been filled with knowledge so I am sure that if at any point I am confused I will be able to find someone that is either at the same point as me or further along that can give me some suggestions.

I have been able to work out that I will have roughly 20-30 hours a week to dedicate towards working on this so I have the time to get confused and sort of work through it.

[Draco-REX]

I have taken a look into that a few times actually. I have contemplated it for awhile assuming that anything I do there would be helpful towards the 818 even if it isn't the same kit.

This forum has thankfully been filled with knowledge so I am sure that if at any point I am confused I will be able to find someone that is either at the same point as me or further along that can give me some suggestions.

I have been able to work out that I will have roughly 20-30 hours a week to dedicate towards working on this so I have the time to get confused and sort of work through it.
If this kit is like most major projects, whatever your budget for time and money, you'll have half the time available to work on it and need twice the money you've budgeted. :p

[riptide motorsport]

At 20 to 30'hours per week, you'll be done in 10 weeks easy!

[adesilva]

Thankfully I have two businesses and unless either one has major problems I should be able to dedicate roughly 5 hours a day. (give or take a few days) I also am not yet married or have kids so a lot of time spent there would be dedicated to my 818 :)

Being done in 10 weeks would be amazing ... but I would expect it to take double then usual amount of time just because some things that may be obvious to others would be foreign to me and take awhile.

I am really just excited to see if they will actually be able to maintain the 15k price point. The only area which I am expecting to want to improve upon is the interior. I have some experience adding some nice audio systems to cars in the past and I plan on doing that with this car if at all possible. I also want to try and make the dash look a little nicer (Maybe with some leather / suede / etc).

I have been waiting to hear more about this car for months so I simply cant wait till the process keeps moving along towards seeing the final models, getting a parts list, and then a release date !

[BrandonDrums]

True, but that's where a decent seal comes into play. If there is only one low pressure path to take, then it will go there.

Of course, I'm not an engineer. But that's what makes sense to me and what I have seen done on other OEM applications....albeit without intercoolers, just airflow management.

I remember you having this idea back in April or May, you suggested having ducts from the vents in front of he rear wheels going up to the top of the engine. At least I think you suggested that. No need for a seal, the high pressure from the vent entrance and the low pressure zone on top of the intercooler would cause most of the air to flow from the vents up through the rather than sucking air from just the engine bay.

Like many cold air intake systems for wrx's, the stock intake ducting is kept in pace to route cold air to the general vicinity of the cone air filter. There's no seal but it works great. I think this could work great, especcially if the back glass is vertical. In that case, there would be tons of low pressure and the air vent fromthe intercooler would actually help aero quite a bit. See the mythbusters on the pickup truck tailgate myth about gas mileage for the logic.

[PhyrraM]

I remember you having this idea back in April or May, you suggested having ducts from the vents in front of he rear wheels going up to the top of the engine. At least I think you suggested that.

Yeah, I was originally thinking about ducts. However, the more I thought about it the more I leaned towards no ducts in the engine bay, but a seal on the intercooler.

Either way, my point is that with some thought we likely don't need to be stuck with some large ungainly scoop on the roof or blocking what little rear visability there might be.

[olpro]

The only actual hands on experience I have with engine bay cooling issues is with model airplanes. Nonetheless, some of it may be applicable.
In that realm, the general rule is to have a much larger air exit than intake, as much as 3 to 1. Second, direct ram air is usually better for intakes and Third: smooth internal ducts are nice but baffles to make the air pass the cooling fins are usually enough. Without baffles the air may pass through elsewhere, missing the fins entirely (I assume a baffle is the same as PhyrraM's seal).
Of course most model engines are running alcohol/nitromethane and will keep pretty cool if run rich.

[kach22i]

Well put. Heat soak hapens when the car s at rest. Because the 818 has the radiator up front, thi issue should just about go away. The fact that the engine bay has more volume should help too. Therefore, the intercoller should work better than it does on the WRX.
.
Possible heat soak of the intercooler somewhere in the midship engine bay, and use of a front mounted radiator may not be as directly related as your comment seems to imply.

The radiator cools the engine block via the cooling jacket.

The intercooler cools the heat generated by the supercharger or turbocharger.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler

With all this talk of venting and cooling remember some people may like to retain A/C, add oil coolers, and add transmission coolers.

Venting to cooling ducts for the brake pads is another topic.

[BipDBo]

Possible heat soak of the intercooler somewhere in the midship engine bay, and use of a front mounted radiator may not be as directly related as your comment seems to imply.

The radiator cools the engine block via the cooling jacket.

The intercooler cools the heat generated by the supercharger or turbocharger.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler

With all this talk of venting and cooling remember some people may like to retain A/C, add oil coolers, and add transmission coolers.

Venting to cooling ducts for the brake pads is another topic.

Heat soak occurs when the vehicle is at rest and there is no airflow. In the top mount configuration, the problem is greatly worsened when heat from the engine bay rises and engulfs the intercooler, even causing the hot air to flow through the intercooler in reverse direction. The majority of heat underthe hood of the WRX comes from the radiator. All of the other souces of heat (engine block, exhaust manifolds, etc.) I'm guessing is about half of the heat disapated just by the radiator. That's why I say that the heat soak problem will for the most part go away with the 818.

[PhyrraM]

Heat soak can also be used to describe when heat cannot be removed fast enough, so the temp slowly rises.

I do not know if a stock WRX has this problem, but it likely does under duress.

The stock intercooler is likely sized for 95% of uses. For example autocross/rallycross course, drag racing, stoplight blast, etc... In these cases the peak turbo output is of short duration and there is little time for the intercooler to soak. However, under constant full load (or with an improperly sized turbo operating far outside of it's efficiency range) then intercooler capacity and airflow management become more important.

I would *guess* that heatsoak related to being stationary and engine heat rising is gone within 30 seconds of forward progress and is mainly a concern to drag racers and stoplight jumpers.

I would *guess* that load related thermal capacity is really only going to surface on a racetrack or maybe a REALLY sprited hill climb.

So where does that leave the rest of us? I'm not too worried as long as it's given *some* thought. I trust FFR for at least that much.

Just for comparision...A stock WRX has a normal grill and radiator pumping hot air into, and slightly pressurizing the engine bay. On top of that there is a large hood scoop (even larger on STIs) pumping even more air, and pressure, under the hood. All of this air is left to exit under the car, like almost every other car on the road. Somehow, this all works to keep a stock WRX happy in 99% of all normal situations.

Like I said, as long as Jim gives it *some* thought - I'm not worried. In fact, I'm sure he already has.

[305mouse]

When it comes to the larger scoop on earlier STI's, they were replaced with ones not as tall. Come to find out the taller scoop did not decrease temps at all. Take a look at a 92X ( what I have ) the scoop is like the newer 08+ models. It's ever shorter than the previous generations. I think as long as it has airflow directed at the TMIC, which I'm sure it will, all will be well.

[kach22i]

........The majority of heat underthe hood of the WRX comes from the radiator. All of the other souces of heat (engine block, exhaust manifolds, etc.) I'm guessing is about half of the heat disapated just by the radiator. That's why I say that the heat soak problem will for the most part go away with the 818.
Alright, I see where you are coming from now, and you are right about most of the heat coming from the radiator.

http://www.mcilwainandassociates.com/rvat.htm
5111

The figures below are of the velocity and temperature contours of a simplified model of a small hatchback car. The heat exchanger of the car (the radiator) is mounted at the front and is fed by air entering the engine bay of the car via the grille........................

At part throttle/low load, most of the heat of the engine is passed through the block in to the coolant, thus the radiator has to reject the majority of the excess heat. It can be seen in this example that the heat from the radiator is being passed back over the engine block, which quite obviously does not have a cooling effect. This heat will eventually escape underneath the car, but could potentially affect ancillary components of the engine such as rubber hoses, spark plug etc. leads causing premature failure, or could cause problems for other coolers.

I would be very interested in data showing engine bay temperatures of mid-engined cars with radiators up front compared to the normal radiator and engine up front. A 50% lower engine bay temperature would be impressive if true.

For some reason, I seem to hear of mid-engine cars with cooling problems more often than other cars. However, any example I can think of is from the early 1970's, and might have something to do with emission standards. An old trick was to run the car hot to ease emissions. It also might be that they are being driven harder, or the low production numbers did not allow a budget for proper engineering and design of the cooling system.

[JRL]

Some good intercooler discussion can be found here http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/intercooler.html

[Draco-REX]

When it comes to the larger scoop on earlier STI's, they were replaced with ones not as tall. Come to find out the taller scoop did not decrease temps at all. Take a look at a 92X ( what I have ) the scoop is like the newer 08+ models. It's ever shorter than the previous generations. I think as long as it has airflow directed at the TMIC, which I'm sure it will, all will be well.
The change in scoop size was due to the aerodynamics of the nose. The 04/05 STI has a taller scoop than the WRX because it was neccesary to get the upper lip into the airflow above the hood. The scoop is smaller in 06 because the lower and more aerodynamic nose keeps the airstream tucked closer to the hood. If you were to compare the two in profile, you would see a very big difference in the height of the hood's leading edge.

The 02/03 nose is so bad that aero tests found that at high speeds, air would actually flow OUT of the stock WRX scoop. The leading edge of the hood sees very low pressure. I cut cooling vents in my 03's hood and in the rain, I can actually see water coming up out of it.

[adesilva]

At 20 to 30'hours per week, you'll be done in 10 weeks easy!

I also happen to live about 15-20 minutes from Factory Five so I can always bug them daily if I get confused ... mmhm be jealous jk haha

[305mouse]

My point was that we shouldn't worry about big air vents to funnel air to the TMIC. I believe it will be designed with better areodynamics and airflow to cool the intercooler. Thank you for being more technical about it than I was.

[BipDBo]

The change in scoop size was due to the aerodynamics of the nose. The 04/05 STI has a taller scoop than the WRX because it was neccesary to get the upper lip into the airflow above the hood. The scoop is smaller in 06 because the lower and more aerodynamic nose keeps the airstream tucked closer to the hood. If you were to compare the two in profile, you would see a very big difference in the height of the hood's leading edge.

The 02/03 nose is so bad that aero tests found that at high speeds, air would actually flow OUT of the stock WRX scoop. The leading edge of the hood sees very low pressure. I cut cooling vents in my 03's hood and in the rain, I can actually see water coming up out of it.

I believe it. Most cars have negative relative pressure above the hood and positive pressure under it. That's probably why most intercoolers are front mounted. It's also why hoods have safety latches.

The other problem with this is that it causes uplift on the front wheels. I hope that the 818 has a low nose with a minimally sized radiator intake with big discharge openings up through the top of the hood. If so, it might just drive the front wheels down slightly.

[kach22i]

Some good intercooler discussion can be found here http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/intercooler.html
Nice site, I've bookmarked it for future reference.

I think the math example I was curious about is in there somewhere, just needs some input and pushing numbers around.

[Draco-REX]

I believe it. Most cars have negative relative pressure above the hood and positive pressure under it. That's probably why most intercoolers are front mounted. It's also why hoods have safety latches.

The other problem with this is that it causes uplift on the front wheels. I hope that the 818 has a low nose with a minimally sized radiator intake with big discharge openings up through the top of the hood. If so, it might just drive the front wheels down slightly.
I'm hoping for an upward discharge from the radiator also.

[mekeys]

These threads are too technical for me ..I'm hoping to be able to bolt it together from donor parts.I'm mustly interested in STYLE..100 mpg also has a nice ring to it ..

Mel

[Niburu]

I plan on waiting to see if there are any issues before I create one, and then try solve it before it actually exists.

[adesilva]

I plan on waiting to see if there are any issues before I create one, and then try solve it before it actually exists.


I am hoping that the "Beta" process that has been mentioned before will be able to get any major problems out of the way.

Does anyone know how the beta program works? Have they done it for previous vehicles? (GTM / etc)

I am not sure if this is an internal beta or something where they actually give some of the more dedicated customers a slight discount to be test subjects and work on this car lol

[thebeerbaron]

I am hoping that the "Beta" process that has been mentioned before will be able to get any major problems out of the way.

Does anyone know how the beta program works? Have they done it for previous vehicles? (GTM / etc)

I am not sure if this is an internal beta or something where they actually give some of the more dedicated customers a slight discount to be test subjects and work on this car lol

I believe Dave has stated the beta, if any, will be minimal due to the advanced techniques used to design the car...

[PhyrraM]

Yeah, I got the feeling from Dave's comments that the BETA program will be a small handful of "pre-production" cars done by builders that are familier with and they know they can get good feedback out of.

While a part of me thinks that one BETA builder should be a "Subaru Specialist", the more I think about it, the less it seems like that would be neccisary. Subaru themselves has already BETAed the parts. Testing needs to be done on the assembly process, the quality of the instructions, and completeness of the kit.

[Doc_FFR]

These threads are too technical for me ..I'm hoping to be able to bolt it together from donor parts.I'm mustly interested in STYLE..100 mpg also has a nice ring to it ..

Mel
I'm glad there are some great minds working on all the little details to make this project great . It seems like between all the thinkers here and the great staff of factory five racing, thoughts will find away together to make this a car for the history books. In all honesty, my experience is limited, but I have great enthusiasm to learn more about building cars. I would suggest to Dave that he make the 818 part of the building school.

I plan on that shamelessly copying whichever of you comes up with the best and smoothest solution. I hope to set my car apart by making an awesome custom interior.

Hey Dave! Time is running out for the SEMA show! Show us the prototypes already!

[adesilva]

As an above poster mentioned I feel that the instructions could be the best place where Beta builders are able to help out. When it comes down to it the guys at FF know how to build this car by the time it is shipped and whenever that is the case some details get lost in the shuffle. Things that may be obvious to the people at FF will confuse the heck out of a person like me. I think that if these BETA builders can focus on the build quality as well as making the best instructions possible for the rest of us then it will be great.

I also feel that it may even be a good idea to find someone that really doesn't know what they are doing as much as others. That way they can sort of gauge the difficulty of the build as well as the amount of time it may take someone that is not incredibly experienced.

It says on FF's site that the roadster is estimated to take 250 hours to build. Is that in total? In all honesty that seems rather low to me all things considered. If that includes bodywork / paint then the 818 should theoretically be much less because from what I have heard stalking the GTM forums for a few years is that bodywork can end up taking up a good majority of the build.

The area which I feel could become difficult could be electrical but im sure it cant be too difficult to figure out (especially with all the great people here).

I also intend to try and separate my care through the interior, I plan to try and make a bit of a higher scale interior (especially if I go with a convertible), I will probably do what I can to get the wrx motor to pump out roughly 300-350hp which shouldn't be too difficult either ( I am sure in stock form the car will already be incredibly fast).

[Silvertop]

I plan on waiting to see if there are any issues before I create one, and then try solve it before it actually exists.

A commendable approach. All the concern over intercooler placement and heat soak issues on this thread already has me half-convinced to shop for an NA Impreza for my build, potentially avoiding these sorts of problems.

I think I'll resist the urge for the time being, though.

[kach22i]

I plan on waiting to see if there are any issues before I create one, and then try solve it before it actually exists.

You have no appreciation for backyard engineering and second guessing.:D

[RM1SepEx]

My thoughts

Buy as soon as possible
Dive in
go with the flow
results: Awesomeness

at or around target weight a checked out/freshened WRX motor will give more than enough to break my face with smiles, tho the TDI with some performance mods would be sweet too, just need to hit 10lbs/HP
I'm another mechanical engineer though! :-)

BSME 1981 UMO

[Ks2]

i mentioned it a while back, back when i still had my TMIC i made a plate with sheet metal and zip ties that fit under the intercooler over the Y pipe and ducted air coming down from the intercooler out towards the back of the engine bay it fed back and attached via zip ties to the trans mount. it did a pretty good job of keeping hot air from coming up out of the scoop when stopped and keeping cool air moving across the intercooler

sadly i didn't not take measurements or any empirical data to support my claim that things ran better and the intercooler was colder, before i could melt snow around the hood scoop idleing the car, afterwards snow wouldn't melt at all (yes i scraped it out of the way before leaving). you could also feel the difference with your hand after running the car a bit and parking it

just an idea...

[Niburu]

ok it's been a week Mr. Smith
the teeming masses would like another smackeral of info













please

[adesilva]

I have a feeling we wont be seeing anything new till SEMA :(

[Oppenheimer]

Time to compare the latest 818 spy shots to a Yugo...

[vozproto]

dunno. Looked more like an AMC gremlin mated with a Pontiac Aztec to me...

[2KWIK4U]

I have a feeling we wont be seeing anything new till SEMA :(

I think so too, maybe he will hold back till the big unviel at Sema.

[Silvertop]

I think so too, maybe he will hold back till the big unviel at Sema.

I'm betting he releases full views of each model before SEMA. But JUST before!

[Flamshackle]

I'm betting he releases full views of each model before SEMA. But JUST before!

How far off is the Sema show?

[Hiryu]

Starts Nov 1st....I hope to be there personally to see the good stuff...but yeah, I'm guessing something might be "leaked" right before. Either way, exciting. :)

[Smythe]

They have 3 of the models completed.

I caught just a glimpse of them when I was there on Tuesday, they had them in a back room and when I walked by I was able to see 3 but only for a split second.

But yeah I'm sure we will see them all in just a few weeks, I've got a friend who is going to SEMA and he is going to take a bunch of pictures for me.

I'm Excited to see all the models in detail and see how the next stage of body design is going to turn out. On a side note I was a little surprised how narrow the cockpit is, seems like a lot of people on the interior thread have grand ideas about center consoles etc that are not going to be feasible. Plus there is a diagonal bar that runs right through the center.

That chassis is going to be very very stiff.

Smythe

[adesilva]

As of right now I am most excited about the open house so that I can see them all in person :)

I know that they have 3 models done now and originally wanted to have 5 to select from... will they still be creating 5 or only 3 now?

[adesilva]

Here's the scan of the page I mentioned:

4514

Maybe the design for the high MPG 818?

Edit: Now that I look at it more closely, it's probably the roadster. Initially, my attention was drawn to the nose, which seems more aerodynamic than the Xabier design. If you look behind the seats, though, you see two farings are planned. I think this design is designed to not have a roof.

I am a bit surprised that so many people were not a fan of his roadster design. It actually reminds of me a mini Carrera GT (Especially the Headlights)

[riptide motorsport]

I cant wait, saving the pennies!

[Draco-REX]

I am a bit surprised that so many people were not a fan of his roadster design. It actually reminds of me a mini Carrera GT (Especially the Headlights)
The camera angle chosen was very poor. If I were handed only this picture for the 818, I'd forget about the whole project. The hood line looks high enough for it to be FWD not MR, and the rear just looks like every other 2-seater out there. The front fenders are way too thick, and the rear fenders look like the wheel arches were afterthoughts. The windshield stands too tall and the nose looks more like an S2000 than any exotic. Now, it's possible all of this boils down to the poor camera angle and the fact that it's white on white with soft shadows. But if this were the only design and the only picture, I'd be very disappointed.

Thankfully there will be 5 designs to choose from and a lot of camera angles to really get a feel for them. Maybe this design will look better in color and with better angles. Maybe it won't. But what's really great here is that we are being offered a choice rather than FFR making one design and saying "Here it is, please buy it." They are interested in our feedback. And I hope that WITH our feedback, they create something truly exciting. Not just to drive, but to look at as well.

Here's a question for FFR: If the 5th model won't be ready for SEMA, when the full images will come out, will you post at least the drawing of the 5th model so we know which one you chose?

[VTX]

Draco actually makes a good point about camera angles and this is a pet peeve of mine that I see a lot. People tend to stand too close to their cars when photographing them and then zoom out to get the whole car in the picture. The problem is that with wide angle shots there is a lot of distortion in the image and it makes the car look funny. It could definitely account for making the hood look larger, fenders thicker, etc., like Draco mentions.

The proper way to do it is to stand further back and zoom in (unless you're purposefully going for some kind of "artistic" wide angle view of the car). This eliminates the distortion and gives a much more true to life representation of what the car looks like.

[adesilva]

I think that we can attribute some of this to the fact that it was a picture they didn't want getting out in the first place. I at least think that design has some potential.

[asamboer]

I am a bit surprised that so many people were not a fan of his roadster design. It actually reminds of me a mini Carrera GT (Especially the Headlights)

Do you know what wind screen they used for the car? http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4514
And do you think it will be used on the other cars as well?

[Silvertop]

I think that we can attribute some of this to the fact that it was a picture they didn't want getting out in the first place. I at least think that design has some potential.

It seems to me that Dave indicated that the car in the photo has undergone significant changes since that picture was taken, and doesn't necessarily really look like that anymore............ We'll just have to wait and see, and thankfully, not much longer.

[AVIONX]

WOW! No updates from Dave in more than half a month? Bummer. I really love getting more information on my next big project.

[Dave Smith]

I know I cant leave you guys alone for too long or you'll burn the house down! Ha. Been busy as always here getting ready for SEMA. I have an idea. You guys have been (along with the GRM crowd) following and particiapting and, in many cases, directing the project (feedback does get read!). What do you say we pull the wraps off the models here at FFR before SEMA and post full pics here of the cars... not trying to do any big press releases, just show the community and core people where the cars are and maybe go into more detail on first model launch, specifics about running gear and maybe some updates on the chassis, brakes, suspension, etc? Any takers for a small presentation/update here at FFR maybe this saturday morning?

[Dave Smith]

Sorry for the silence, BUT we have been slaving away quite a bit. I was thinking slide show of CAD work, scale models and chassis updates with MAYBE some conservative production ideas and dates for the future. I might be able to put this together for saturday.

[kach22i]

I'm sure anything you can put together will be appreciated and well received.

[VTX]

Heck yeah!

[Movieman]

I know I cant leave you guys alone for too long or you'll burn the house down! Ha. Been busy as always here getting ready for SEMA. I have an idea. You guys have been (along with the GRM crowd) following and particiapting and, in many cases, directing the project (feedback does get read!). What do you say we pull the wraps off the models here at FFR before SEMA and post full pics here of the cars... not trying to do any big press releases, just show the community and core people where the cars are and maybe go into more detail on first model launch, specifics about running gear and maybe some updates on the chassis, brakes, suspension, etc? Any takers for a small presentation/update here at FFR maybe this saturday morning?
I might even drive back down to see that!:D

[Dave Smith]

Movieman! I owe you so that might be a good idea.

I'm just figuring that you guys here deserve to see the work before the throngs at SEMA, and perhaps the feedback can direct us ton the next step faster and more precisely than the masses. What I'm thinking is to put together a presentation of where we are, show the models, the CAD work to date, maybe even some full-size stuff we've been working on and describe where we think we should go and solicit open questions and advice about the path or options. One big question connected to the body design selection is the model we launch first.. a race version (gets better press and is real sexy with road car coming.. think x-bow KTM and lotus 211), or maybe affordable roadster with soft top first, or maybe go for the tough eco-car now and garner well-timed press. Still chasiss can go all directions and bodies can be modded fast, we just are at the next node here, on time and as promised. The next big node is model selction and car building.

I think Saturday is possible with a small crew for ideas/feedback and maybe post some pic here for those who cant participate. Model 4 is getting painted this week (it is here) and I think model 5 is going to be a no-show. I think we have enough to go to the next node in the project. Keep in mind that we have been ON TARGET with this project that began following a customer dinner at SEMA last year where we spoke about the car and another project that were in competition for R&D dollars and had been conceived for some years.

[Movieman]

Goes out to check the oil and gas up the Intrepid..:)

[65 Cobra Dude]

Dave,

I'll be there. looking forward to it.

Henry

[Justen]

I would take the trip up to Wareham for this! I would really like to see the models in person and get a better idea for what they actually look like in person.

[305mouse]

Dave, that sounds like a great idea. Too bad there's no way I would be able to drive out for Saturday, so I'll have to settle for internet updates and picks. From the group of people who come to FFR, you could then post a poll online with different ideas/routes to go. Personally I would love to see the race version or the affordable roadster first. That's what drew me in. The car is already gonna get great mpg's due to the weight. Keep up the great work, can't wait to see what you show us next.

[ScottKoschwitz]

Cool! I'll bring the doughnuts.

[mentatbashar]

I'm late to the 818 party but after looking at some of the contest entries I'm very excited about this new project! Dave, for those of us who cannot attend the presentation, would you please create a new thread in the 818 forum with the release information? That way it doesn't get lost in this thread and makes it easier to get to the information. :) Thank you for your hard work!

Oh, and don't forget pictures. Lots of pictures!

[PhyrraM]

West Coaster.....Bummer.

Great idea though. Don't keep us forum-only folks feeling like second class citizens..lots of pics please.

SEMA is in Vegas? I suppose it's not open to the public? Wanna be my hero Dave....?

[D2W]

I'd love to be there, but you're a little to far away for a weekend roadtrip:) Anxiously awaiting pictures and info on what you have and where you are going.

[Movieman]

Cool! I'll bring the doughnuts.
Meet ya at Dunks down the street..I'll get the coffee.

[16g-95gsx]

Sounds great to me.

[ICY WRX]

Would love to particpate! Is there any way you could do an interactive webcast / presentation?

[adesilva]

I know I cant leave you guys alone for too long or you'll burn the house down! Ha. Been busy as always here getting ready for SEMA. I have an idea. You guys have been (along with the GRM crowd) following and particiapting and, in many cases, directing the project (feedback does get read!). What do you say we pull the wraps off the models here at FFR before SEMA and post full pics here of the cars... not trying to do any big press releases, just show the community and core people where the cars are and maybe go into more detail on first model launch, specifics about running gear and maybe some updates on the chassis, brakes, suspension, etc? Any takers for a small presentation/update here at FFR maybe this saturday morning?

That sounds amazing, I know I would certainly go. I am only about 20 minutes away from FF so I can be there at any time!

[ScoobySnack818]

YES! Thank you for showing this core group the progress so far. I am excited to see a few Solidworks screen shots of the chassis and pics of the scaled and full size model bodies. Rock on Dave and the FFR crew!

Oh and as far as which model to debut first, my vote goes to ALL of them. :) You can do it!

-Justin

[BipDBo]

Sorry for the silence, BUT we have been slaving away quite a bit. I was thinking slide show of CAD work, scale models and chassis updates with MAYBE some conservative production ideas and dates for the future. I might be able to put this together for saturday.

Sounds like a once in a lifetime opportunity. I'm here wondering if I can afford a last minute plane ticket from Florida. I don't suppose that there's any chance you can set up an invitation only web video stream for contest entrants and forum members? We could IM any comments we have.

[2KWIK4U]

Thanks Dave we appreciate the extra consideration on the unveil.

[thebeerbaron]

Gotta figure out how to get there cheap and early! Any chance Jim "Twitchy" Schenck will be there?

[Mad Dog]

Hi guys,

We're going to try and also do a web broadcast on Saturday morning from 9-9:30 (if Dave doesn't talk too much). I'll have more information on where to watch the web broadcast as I finish setting up the event on USTREAM posted tomorrow or Friday. I'll also try to do a test broadcast at 4 PM on Friday, EST...more coming shortly.

[BrandonDrums]

I was thinking the same thing, a live but closed, invite-only and secure webcast with a NDA (non disclosure agreement) would rock. I'm well too far away to attend but I really want to participate.

**edit, apparently I wrote this right when Mad Dog said they'd do a web broadcast. They are too quick!

[vozproto]

Dangit. I'm camping and away from technology Saturday am. :(

[Dave Smith]

OK, so here's the plan. We will do a small quasi-open house event for this Saturday morning where we will unveil the 4 scale models, garner feedback on the shapes, and talk in specific terms about the steps ahead towards production. I'll try to be as specific as possible, but this project has been like clockwork and I dont want to stop that excellent trend. I will present to anyone interested the status update, show the scale models (even if #4 is still tacky from wet paint!), and spend a few hours LISTENING to ideas and opinions on model, launch sequence, etc. Mad Dog will do a web broadcast for you guys who are not here. I'll have Mad Dog post specific times and web links tomorrow and we may do a practice broadcast on Friday at 4pm on the KONI GTM that will be at SEMA also.

[David Hodgkins]

I'll be checking the webcast out!

Thanks Dave!

:)

[BipDBo]

Awesome. I'm stoked. I'm still going to shop for a plane ticket.

[adesilva]

Cant wait, that sounds great. So would you be starting this at 9am Saturday?

I just want to work my schedule around this :) its very exciting and do not want to miss it!

[riptide motorsport]

Too coo too cool too cool!!!!!!! this sat webcast right?!!!

[Silvertop]

I'd love to be there but I can't put travel plans together that quickly. I'm in for the webcast, though. Excited!!!!!

[shinn497]

This sounds awesome. What time zone are you guys in? I'm in CA so that broadcast might at 6AM. I will still wake up for it.

Also, I def think you should go with the road softtop (the 10,000$ one right?) That is a magic price point and would garner huge press. FFR would reach an entirely new type of market with such a car.

[David]

... What do you say we pull the wraps off the models here at FFR before SEMA and post full pics here of the cars... not trying to do any big press releases, just show the community and core people where the cars are and maybe go into more detail on first model launch, specifics about running gear and maybe some updates on the chassis, brakes, suspension, etc? Any takers for a small presentation/update here at FFR maybe this saturday morning?

Dave,

I think thats an outstanding way to thank the communities that have spent so much time following the 818 and helping to move the project forward.

Really looking forward to seeing the designs!

David

[Oppenheimer]

Looking forward to the webcast.

Thoughts on launch sequence, don't do the mgp car first. It won't take much to sour that crowd if there are any glitches in the launch. Once that momentum is lost, very difficult to get it back. Once there is already a successfully launched 818, introducing an mpg version will go much better. If there are any glitches at that point, its easier to point to working WRX based version to show that mpg car will work.

The mpg version has to launch well to gather momentum outside the car-guy world.

[65 Cobra Dude]

Shinn,

We're in the EST time zone so you left coasters will have to be up at 0600.

Henry

[skullandbones]

Do you have to have a special app on your computer to join the webcast? Or is it something that can be downloaded at the time? Don't want to miss it. Thanks, WEK.

[slopoke]

anxiously awaiting a link to the webcast!!!!!!!

[NicksPapaw]

Oh Boy!!! Finally a webcast worth watching. Be ready MadDog, your server might crash if too many people hear of this. I am stoked about seeing this unveil. My grandson Nick was just sitting here telling me that we need to start another project. He absolutely loved the build and he was only 3 when we started. He is now 7 1/2 and I guess he thinks that it will take him 10 years to get this one together. ha ha Can't wait until Saturday!!

[Draco-REX]

It's too bad you can't hit the ground running with two cars at the same time. It would blow people's minds to drop the race version and the eco version simultaneously to display the range you're capable of. But it's better to launch one complete product than two 90% products.

Which one to launch first might depend on what bodies are chosen for each. I'd probably want my favorite launched first (hoping that it is one of the Subaru-powered ones). That said, it might be best to launch with the roadster. It would be a solid product with the widest customer base. Additionally, it would hint at the capabilities of the more extreme versions that are in the pipe. The light weight would make even a base WRX build very quick, and very efficient.

And not to be negative, more like realistic, the first one will need tweaks. Which one do you want to live through the growing pains with? The base roadster might be the best choice for that because it isn't so specialized. If it's a suspension/handling tweak, that would matter more for the racer. And if it's an aero/efficiency tweak, that would matter more to the eco car. But neither would be a deal breaker for the roadster.

As awesome as it would be to come out swinging with something shocking, from what I've read it seems like the 818 has a greater purpose and a long road ahead of it. So putting a conservative foot forward at the outset might not be too bad of an idea. You can always doll up the roadster with go-fast bits, or swap in a N/A engine to be more efficient and say "If we can get these results from the base model, just imagine what we'll achieve with the specialized versions!"

Can't wait for the sneak peek. Will recordings of the webcast be available? I have to work from 9am-on. Otherwise I'll just content myself with the pictures.

[sid]

Damn! I wish I could make this, but $2k for a plane ticket is not gonna cut it. Diffenetly will wake upp at 4am (Hawaii time) and watch the web cast.

On a side note, I was up the other morning at 2:30am trying to figure out what it wouls take to put an ecoboost in one of these things.

[wooward]

6am PST? That's a little too early for me. Is it possible to record the webcast so that we can watch it later? So the roadster will have a soft top? Will there be a hard top option? I think the $10,000 car would be great to start with too. Personally, cause this will be my first kit car and if all goes well, I might buy another version of the 818 as well. Nice to try out the cheapest one first.

[Inthenameofweez]

Another excited party interested in a link to the live webcast...

[Duratec7]

Dave this is fantastic. Your desire to keep in touch with your base is what makes Factory Five the company it is. Looking forward to at least the web-cast if I can't make the trip (working on that now).

[bromikl]

It's too bad you can't hit the ground running with two cars at the same time. It would blow people's minds to drop the race version and the eco version simultaneously to display the range you're capable of. But it's better to launch one complete product than two 90% products.

Which one to launch first might depend on what bodies are chosen for each. I'd probably want my favorite launched first (hoping that it is one of the Subaru-powered ones). That said, it might be best to launch with the roadster. It would be a solid product with the widest customer base. Additionally, it would hint at the capabilities of the more extreme versions that are in the pipe. The light weight would make even a base WRX build very quick, and very efficient.

And not to be negative, more like realistic, the first one will need tweaks. Which one do you want to live through the growing pains with? The base roadster might be the best choice for that because it isn't so specialized. If it's a suspension/handling tweak, that would matter more for the racer. And if it's an aero/efficiency tweak, that would matter more to the eco car. But neither would be a deal breaker for the roadster.

As awesome as it would be to come out swinging with something shocking, from what I've read it seems like the 818 has a greater purpose and a long road ahead of it. So putting a conservative foot forward at the outset might not be too bad of an idea. You can always doll up the roadster with go-fast bits, or swap in a N/A engine to be more efficient and say "If we can get these results from the base model, just imagine what we'll achieve with the specialized versions!"

Can't wait for the sneak peek. Will recordings of the webcast be available? I have to work from 9am-on. Otherwise I'll just content myself with the pictures.



One of the best thought-out responses to the "Which car first" question.

Not being a racer myself, I have the feeling that racers would be most at home with growing pains. Many of the vehicles on a track are one-of's; and an experienced racer is uniquely qualified to identify issues, in comparison to the home hobbyist who has never driven any vehicle remotely similar.

My inclination would be to introduce the track version to get the "WOW! WTFisthatImusthaveone!!" response, and then dangle the eco- version so they can justify the imminent purchase in their minds. It could be noted that even the track version is likely to get MPG in the high 40's when driven like a street vehicle, and hint at what it could be possible with alternative drive trains.

Just my $0.02

[Mad Dog]

The event officially starts at 9 AM EST this Saturday. We're going to set-up the event on USTREAM and will embed the video player on Factory Five's website and will also try to have it embedded here on the forum as well.

[bromikl]

Mad Dog, will we have a trial run? I have used USTREAM only once, and it took some time to figure out how.

Thanks.

[Mad Dog]

I just did a trial run just filming around the office and showroom. Dan and Sally counted and there's about an 8 second delay which in my opinion, isn't all that bad considering we'll be broadcasting from a smartphone (iPhone). We're planning a test run with a preview of the Koni GTM that Gary Cheney built tomorrow at 4 PM EST.

[Niburu]

One of the best thought-out responses to the "Which car first" question.

Not being a racer myself, I have the feeling that racers would be most at home with growing pains. Many of the vehicles on a track are one-of's; and an experienced racer is uniquely qualified to identify issues, in comparison to the home hobbyist who has never driven any vehicle remotely similar.

My inclination would be to introduce the track version to get the "WOW! WTFisthatImusthaveone!!" response, and then dangle the eco- version so they can justify the imminent purchase in their minds. It could be noted that even the track version is likely to get MPG in the high 40's when driven like a street vehicle, and hint at what it could be possible with alternative drive trains.

Just my $0.02
I concur with what Bromikl and Draco-REX have posted.
I think one of the main draws for this car will also be the price point, so getting the least expensive build out there first would be a good idea.
I've been watching used WRX prices like a hawk and from I can tell, if you sell off the unused bits and the body of the donor it practically pays for itself.
This car will pull in a whole new market segment of younger buyers because of the price point and because frankly there are alot of people who don't want a big honken 'Murican V8 and would rather have a turbo 4.

[Georgia Coupe]

I just did a trial run just filming around the office and showroom. Dan and Sally counted and there's about an 8 second delay which in my opinion, isn't all that bad considering we'll be broadcasting from a smartphone (iPhone). We're planning a test run with a preview of the Koni GTM that Gary Cheney built tomorrow at 4 PM EST.

Your test run worked great. I just happen to check out the Ustream site and typed in Factory Five. There you were!

[Mad Dog]

That's funny you saw that Georgia Coupe! We'll be hosting another one tomorrow to double check. We just set-up my MacBook Pro connecting it to the TV in the showroom for a slideshow during the presentation Saturday as well.

[Doc_FFR]

PROS and CONS

High MPG car: FFR seemed to get some good press from those high school kids and the race, so coming out with another in the same vein could build your reputation.
Racer: Seems like this one would be easier to start with since there would be fewer variables to deal with. Fewest headaches.
Roadster: This is more likely to generate more orders and community interest.

So really the question you want to ask yourself Dave is would you rather have FAME (high MPG car), FORTUNE (roadster), or HAPPINESS (Racer)?
...actually kind of a deep question for online car forum, but you get the idea

[Movieman]

PROS and CONS

High MPG car: FFR seemed to get some good press from those high school kids and the race, so coming out with another in the same vein could build your reputation.
Racer: Seems like this one would be easier to start with since there would be fewer variables to deal with. Fewest headaches.
Roadster: This is more likely to generate more orders and community interest.

So really the question you want to ask yourself Dave is would you rather have FAME (high MPG car), FORTUNE (roadster), or HAPPINESS (Racer)?
...actually kind of a deep question for online car forum, but you get the idea
I think the smart move is:
1) FORTUNE: Generates the $$ to fund the rest
2)FAME: Also adds interest and $$$ from new part of the market
3) Happiness: Then you build what you really want!:D

[Silvertop]

I think the smart move is:
1) FORTUNE: Generates the $$ to fund the rest
2)FAME: Also adds interest and $$$ from new part of the market
3) Happiness: Then you build what you really want!:D

Need to add in a fourth category -- SATISFACTION -- and assign it to the Tqrga-Top Coupe. Don't care about the order of release, as long as we don't have to wait too long for it.

[Steve91T]

It's always so difficult to please everybody. But coming out with these different varieties of the 818 is a pretty good way to please nearly everybody.

Have you guys officially come up with a name(s)? Is it still going to be announced at SEMA?

Steve

[Silvertop]

It's always so difficult to please everybody. But coming out with these different varieties of the 818 is a pretty good way to please nearly everybody.

Steve

True

[Dave Smith]

It looks like we will be all green for Saturday here at 9am. I am going to post an invite on our site, but I'd rather keep it within our community. The webcast should go well, we will practice on Friday night (tomorrow) at 4pm with a short intro to the KONI-sponsored GTM that will be headed to SEMA. I asked Mad Dog to TRY and get open questions on the web broadcast so that anyone who isnt here can perhaps post questions that I may answer.

Dave Borden: You were at the customer dinner last year and voted for the subie project! I hope you like where we are going as we enter production after selecting a body! I am planning on attending the customer dinner this year at the Nascar cafe again and will be happy to tip my hand a bit more on the year ahead!

[Dave Smith]

As far as models to launch, the choices are the affordable roadster, the race version and the hyper mpg model. I am inclined to put the hyper-mpg car behind the other two since I feel the designs we have to now were more focused on the first two with maybe a coupe variant... Also Ive learned the talent in the community could do a better job on a focused design with low front area, low drag, coupe/removable ht if we did another design contest that was SUPEr tight defined for just that car. Still, let's use Saturday and the days following to make that call and keep all options open. Im dying to spill beans cause we've already had so much corp partners want to be a part of the new car from brakes, shocks, design, testing, beta shops (3-6 cars), and even broadcast on the development and launch of the car.

[Mad Dog]

Hi everyone,

So the USTREAM app for the iPhone seems to be working quite well and I seem to have everything figured out. We'll have the video embedded on Factory Five's website (link to that page coming shortly) and again, I'll see about posting the video here on the forum as well. You can always watch the video right on USTREAM here (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/factory-five-racing) and that's the place to go if you wish to ask a question on Saturday morning. Tomorrow's video won't necessarily have a Q&A portion. It's just more a test run for us to make sure everything is indeed working.

[GUNS]

As far as models to launch, the choices are the affordable roadster, the race version and the hyper mpg model. I am inclined to put the hyper-mpg car behind the other two since I feel the designs we have to now were more focused on the first two with maybe a coupe variant... Also Ive learned the talent in the community could do a better job on a focused design with low front area, low drag, coupe/removable ht if we did another design contest that was SUPEr tight defined for just that car. Still, let's use Saturday and the days following to make that call and keep all options open. Im dying to spill beans cause we've already had so much corp partners want to be a part of the new car from brakes, shocks, design, testing, beta shops (3-6 cars), and even broadcast on the development and launch of the car.

For me I would like to see the track or roadster version first. Which one out of those 2 depends. I personally want a car that can be driven on the street, but kick *** on the track too. With that being said, is the track version going to be street legal? Will it be based off of the roadster, but with track goodies (ie aero, suspension, brakes, etc.), or will it be a completely different design all together? I would suggest to release the version that will appeal to the majority of your customersa dn in my mind that would probably be the base roadster, shortly followed by the track version. Or if possible, launch them together. Can't wait for saturday!

[vozproto]

These are my thoughts:

Go with the street going roadster first. Here is why:
I am 31 and I am personally looking at this to be my first kit-car and would love something that is affordable, cool, fast and comfy for general road going. But being that I have a drug withdrawal from racing (motorcycles) I would love to be able to take this to an AutoX or track day. So I want a hefty helping of sensible street use with a delicious side of racing.

The track version is going to be either for folks that want/can afford to have a dedicated track car... or have delusions of driving a race car comfortably on the street. Ever see the Euro-tour episode on Top gear when Capt. Slow selects an Aston Martin racer? He ends up sweating up a storm wearing nothing but his underwear, sitting on a pillow.

As far as the mpg car... it would be mainly the early adopters that would go after it. These same folks that would buy the roadster model and MAKE it an mpg model just because they can. And that is a very important research and focus group that would be left out of the development of the actual mpg variant if the mpg model were released too early.

How about I put it this way...
Would you rather have:
- An eco-friendly version of a badass car? Thinking hybrid Audi R8 (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/electric_audi/)
-or A race tuned Altima Hybrid (http://www.braillebattery.com/index.php/events/view/braille_battery_debuts_north_americas_first_hybrid _race_car_at_sema/)

[Mad Dog]

Details on the live stream have been posted here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?3900-Join-Us-for-a-Live-Web-Broadcast&p=37209#post37209) Doesn't look like I'll be able to embed the player here on the forum, but will keep seeing what I can do. However, you can still check it out on Factory Five's website (http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/showevent/ustream/oct2011.html) or at our USTREAM page (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/factory-five-racing).

We've done a bunch of tests today and things seem to be working well with the iPhone app. Some of you may have seen some clips of Darth Vader on my desk if you happened to be on the USTREAM page randomly. We'll give it a shot tomorrow with the SEMA FFR-KONI GTM preview and then onto the big show on Saturday with the 818 models Saturday!

[drewmob]

Here's to hoping a targa model comes out earlier than later. Although I know the performance of the roadster will far outweigh any production vehicle it would make it really hard for me to justify selling my s2000 to build a 818 softtop. I'll just continue to enjoy my WRX and patiently wait to see which style embodies my dream car. Very excited to see everything on sat morning.

[WIS89]

Dave-

I am totally jacked at all you and your team are doing; that includes the extended team. What an amazing time for Factory Five. Well done to everyone. To say I am jealous of you is an understatement, as you have just so much to be proud of!! I can't wait to watch all the exciting stuff to come rolling out! You guys just rock!! I can't wait to build my car!!!

Regards,

Steve

[Jammin]

If I can free up sometime I will be there also

[Mad Dog]

6am PST? That's a little too early for me. Is it possible to record the webcast so that we can watch it later?

Yes. We'll save the live stream so it can be viewed later on. Please remember, it's going to be shot from my iPhone so it won't necessarily be the smoothest of videos, but I'll try to keep my hands as steady as possible and not move around too much.

[VTX]

Here's to hoping a targa model comes out earlier than later. Although I know the performance of the roadster will far outweigh any production vehicle it would make it really hard for me to justify selling my s2000 to build a 818 softtop. I'll just continue to enjoy my WRX and patiently wait to see which style embodies my dream car. Very excited to see everything on sat morning.

I agree. A targa would be my first choice.

[Doc_FFR]

Yes. We'll save the live stream so it can be viewed later on. Please remember, it's going to be shot from my iPhone so it won't necessarily be the smoothest of videos, but I'll try to keep my hands as steady as possible and not move around too much.

4 or 4S?

[Mad Dog]

iPhone 4...trying to hold out on upgrading until the iPhone 5...the faster processor, more memory, and the 64 GB option is tempting though...Siri, while cool, doesn't sell if for me. Might be different once I use it though.

[Silvertop]

I agree. A targa would be my first choice.

And mine. Though I won't rule anything out until I've seen the reveal. They will almost certainly do the lower $$ Roadster first, though. It just makes better sense. I'll be happy to wait patiently for a reasonable period (6 months, maybe?) for my first choice to materialize. Unless of course I decide I MUST have the Roadster after all..........

[vozproto]

Yes. We'll save the live stream so it can be viewed later on. Please remember, it's going to be shot from my iPhone so it won't necessarily be the smoothest of videos, but I'll try to keep my hands as steady as possible and not move around too much.

Phew! I was gonna have a friend attend and grab screen shots for me since I will be out camping.

[scartaan]

Nice job on the webcast, Mad Dog. Looking forward to tomorrow.
On a separate note, I would vote for a Targa too.

[Mad Dog]

Thanks Scartaan! I know it was a bit shaky and some viewers on USTREAM suggested a steady cam...will look into it some more but hope everyone doesn't mind some shaking tomorrow.

[Movieman]

iPhone 4...trying to hold out on upgrading until the iPhone 5...the faster processor, more memory, and the 64 GB option is tempting though...Siri, while cool, doesn't sell if for me. Might be different once I use it though.
Tell David I was drooling on the keyboard when he was talking about the Coyote powered Mk4.. He'll understand and laugh:D

[2KWIK4U]

I will be there tomorrow watching the webcast too.

BTW another vote for a targa or coupe to be sooner than later.

[rschoeni]

Nice job on the Webcast guys! Looking forward to tomorrow's broadcast.
Standing by for the track coupe.
/bs

[willboss]

I got home a little late but was able to view the recorded version. I didn't think it was all that shaky at all. Nice job guys! Can't wait till tomorrow!!!

[thebeerbaron]

going out to dinner here in the city, the hopping in the donor and heading east. see you all in the morning!

Dave, if you're going to light my hair on fire, you need to point me to a coffee shop now. Without joe, I doubt I'd notice anything amiss...

[RM1SepEx]

I'm so bummed, detached retina a couple weeks ago (teaching a Tire Rack Street Survival during the slide show, classroom session!) and can't travel yet, yesterday was my first day that I could do anything besides lie in bed on my right side.

Can't wait to see the webbcast tho! Ready to make the payment for a kit tho!

Dan

[txjeepn]

i am going to be in for the R model. I just can't justify spending the money for an Ariel Atom. And I will keep my S2000 for days when I need a roof. I just need to get a lift before then so I can double stack my side of the garage. And it will also need to be yellow.

[Draco-REX]

i am going to be in for the R model. I just can't justify spending the money for an Ariel Atom. And I will keep my S2000 for days when I need a roof. I just need to get a lift before then so I can double stack my side of the garage. And it will also need to be yellow.
There's something to be said about having a full body.

I'm planning on Black or "Gunmetal". I so love black, even with the trouble of keeping it clean. But silvers really do bring out a car's lines.

I think Paintscratch.com will be my friend in the future. ;) Space Grey Metallic from the '08 M3 is looking really nice...

[ScottKoschwitz]

I won't be able to make the live showing. I had a roundtrip Washington, DC business trip Wednesday to Thursday, and went into NYC on Friday. I'm not up for a 300-mile roundtrip today, but I will be watching the UStream feed. On the UStream site, you can post live comments, so I am looking forward to the discussion on the models. I definitely will plan to make the trip back up to FFR when they have a running prototype available for public viewing and/or rides.

[scartaan]

Mad Dog-
You might try a tripod as a single pod to help steady the camera.

[BrandonDrums]

For the first design to release to market, my vote is on Xabier's design. It by far looks the cleanest, most high end and based on Dave's comments, the most ready for production besides the FFR combo design.

I like them all, but the 1st place design is too bulky. The 2nd place design is incredible but its not ready for market as Dave pointed out. The FFR combo design is frankly a bit busy for my taste. It looks cool and translates well on the larger car. However, with all the vents and lines it's like a Pontiac Trans Am crossed with a Pontiac Fiero crossed with an MR2 Spyder. Cool, pretty but too obviously not a singular design.

My .02

Awesome webcast, thanks so much for doing that!

[Sherrell]

Just finished watching the live unveil webcast. All four concepts are exciting and innovative. But my vote is for either the #1 winning design, or Factory Five's concept.

[ScottKoschwitz]

So, what do you guys think? I think Jim's design looks really good and might be my new favorite.

Thanks Dave and the FFR crew for the webcast for those who couldn't be there.

[adesilva]

Not personally a fan of FF's design (Even though I do think it looks much nicer in full scale and would probably look great as a finished car)

Personally Hate the 2nd place car.

I am a fan of Xabier's car and I think that a good amount of people would like it.

I think that doing the first place car in black was a mistake. It is very difficult to really see the lines (especially the front end) but I feel that the first place model has a nice exotic looking back end and could have the highest potential for a really nice exotic look.

[ElderDragon]

Dave,
Thanks very much for the informative presentation. I am not sure if this is where we should post comments, but here is what I thought.

By far I preferred the Olmos (blue) design with the Xavier design second. The Nuphone design definitely looks better as a model than a drawing although it still doesn't have the impact of the Olmos or Xavier designs. The side indent on the Nuphone design sure says rear radiator to me.

I think the targa top makes the most sense as the first model because this will be the largest volume and most usable model. The open top roadster is only suitable for the right climate or as a second car. Yes, the targa will cost more but it is so much more car because you can drive it any day of the week (even in the snow I suppose!) The race version is guaranteed to be a less streetable second car and requires the extra development of track and aero testing for maximum performance. The high mileage version should have the smallest and lowest drag body which will also require aero testing.

Summing it up, in release order I would do the following:
1. Targa top Olmos
2. Xavier roadster
3. Xavier racer
4. High mileage

If I could have anything I wanted (besides my design being made :) ), I would build the Olmos targa and then an Olmos race version in the vein of the Bugatti Veyron SS.

[SccrMan13]

I agree they shiuld not have used black on that model. I think jims design would be great if the removed some of the scoops and made it cleaner. I would have to say that xabiers design wins in my book right now. It would be easy to put a soft top on it with the rear bar. I still have my questions about the chassis. It looks like with a top on its going to be tough to get inside the car. I will say that the first place design does have an excellent exotic feel but the front end is kinda blah.

[Psay]

Prior to the webcast I disliked the Olmos car now however, it is my favourite by far.

Hopefully when we get some more photographs especially rear end shots of all 4 designs then I will be able to pass more subjective comments.

Whichever design wins a hardtop (whether permanent or removable) is a must as I live in England and we tend to have far more wet than dry days.

[2KWIK4U]

Dave,
Thanks for the sneak peek. I'm an actual roadster builder and a wookie sized guy. I ended up selling my roadster last year; the final decision was because of the weather here in Minnesota being too unpredictable to really enjoy the car. Any one of the designs, I would be happy to take on as my new project, but whichever design is ultimately chosen, needs to have some kind of top (targa or soft).

With that being said, my favorite models in order of preference are:
1. The first place winner (N.B.)
2. The third place winner (Xavier)
3. Factory Five's concept

I understand why you feel that a track car is an excellent option for the market, with quicker production. That said, as an average guy, I want the best of both worlds - speed and handling (and sexy!!). I also do want amenities, unlike the interior of a track car. Is it easier to design a street car and then delete items unnecessary for a track car? When considering the market . . . remember that we don't all live in California but want to have fun with our cars at least during the summer months!!

[scartaan]

Kudos to Dave and Mad Dog for a great presentation. All the designs look great, but the red and blue cars are the only ones that cover the roll bar. The red car not only covers the roll bar, but could easily incorporate a Targa top and side glass. Also, a small window between the headrests would make the car that much more comfortable as it would cut down on buffeting. So, my vote would be for the " mid portion" of the red car!

[adesilva]

Agreed, removable hardtop would be my vote for first form factor.

A track beast would be nice and would gain some publicity but how many people would really be buying on compared to people purchasing a removable hardtop?

[shinn497]

webcast moved by opinion of xabier from disgust to acceptable. I understand that it evokes a classic Ferrari, but the mouth is humongous and not sporty enough. In addition it just doesn't loook modern. Too curvy and bulky.

Nouphone is by far my favorite. Especially the back end. Olmos is a close second. They both are modern, striking and unlike anything elso. Jim's, while a good effort doesn't get there. Perhaps the issue I have is that it clearly is several designs smacked together...mostly exabier. I feel that all of the other designs were made as a whole and are piece of art...and art shouldn't be fuddled with.

Regardless of which is chosen, I would be satisfied with any. I think they would need tweeks however...exabier for aerodynamics, olmos for width, and bansasi for.... why don't people like that one ???:confused:

[GUNS]

Thanks to the FFR team for putting this on. Once the pictures of all the models are posted I think there should be a new thread with a poll started so we can vote on designs. So far my favorites are xabier's and rodney's (olmos). The only problem that I have with Xabier's is that other than the front, the car screams Elise. The rear quarter panels on back are very very similar. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not as original as i'd like. I think Rodney's is just awesome. I realize that it's not quite proportional right now, but i think even tweaked it would look great, probably even better. The thing I like about it is that it doesn't look like anything else out there and is completely original.

For for me this is how i rank them:

1. Rodney's (need to see it in new proportions and more shots of the rear. This could easily be a targa model)
2. Xabier (Close second. Really great lines and will appeal to more people. I'd like to see different lights)
3. Jim's (Not as aggresive as I'd like. I don't like the humps and that leaves out a targa possibility.)
4. 1st place winner (Just doesn't do it for me. I can see this as the high mpg car)


Dave it sounds like you guys are in a hurry to decide on a design and start with pre production. That is awesome, but at the same time once the design is decided on it's going to need some tweaks and finishing touches to make it ready. I just want to make sure we aren't deciding on the final product now.

Thanks again guys and I can't wait for the road ahead.

[apexanimal]

i missed it... :(

you guys didn't happen to record it did you?!

[adesilva]

i missed it... :(

you guys didn't happen to record it did you?!

I believe you can go to ustream and search factory five and it will be there

[imom]

Hi,
I like Jim's and first place cars...both are very nice. Personal request is to make them as a coupe (or a sturdy targa top)... I believe it will work well with the high MPG version as well. I live in California and even own a convertible sportscar with power top...but driving a pure roadster in any parts of the state or world makes this car either a dedicated track car or as a second car only. I do like Jim's car ... it look like headlights from a Mazda 3.


I noticed on Xavier car that had a door handle...it really stood out and not in a good way. I believe it should be hidden as it takes away the lines of the car. My friend had a Ferrari and the door handles were hidden in either rear engine air intake or brake ducts... sorry it's not my car to know the specifics.


I like to see more iterations of the first place and Jim's version as it progress. They are both very good looking cars. A pure roadster makes these cars very exotic... but the hardtop of past roadsters always made them look as an after thought than really the original design of the car. If this car is designed for the masses meaning not as second car... it should either being a convertible, targa, or coupe... roadsters are way too much of a pain to worry about weather proofing or able to drive them during bad weather.



My vote is to ensure an all weather car...not only for sunny days...we have plenty in California...but you can't drive it every day unless you want to get caught in the rain. Also a bonus for me is knowing a coupe can have a full cage from day one for safety.

Thank you for showing the progress.

[TroyLynx]

Dave will need to hire many more people. And have several molds of each car to keep up.

[apexanimal]

just found it... yes....

[SccrMan13]

I have never been to a track day, but the people i know that do track days always have either track day cars like the elise or ktm or 911 rs3 or some expensive car to use. Then there are they people that run track or autox in their daily driver. I think they must go street version first especially as this is supposed to be a world car. Instead of making this a specialized weapon why not see if it can properly be a dual purpose vehicle for the majority of people.

My vote is street version of xabiers design.

[Pandemic Power]

Been lurking for a while and keeping an eye on the 818 Project, and after the webcast I thought I'd leave a little feedback. Fist, thanks to the guys for putting that out there for us. I have to say I'm really impressed with the three from the design competition, the FFR one not so much.

-Something about the rear end on Olmos car that I really like, gives it a nice mean wide look and ties in really nice with the front end flares, only thing the struck me as funny was the headlights.

-I also really like NBs car, think the rear end and front end both look very nice and tie in great, think the way the side scoops carry down the door to the front throws it off.

-I think the Xaviers design is the most complete well portioned of the three, the scoops on the side are well proportioned and flow great the body lines. Rear-end looks great and well proportioned, and I love the way the front end looks on that car. Looks like the easiest to have a targa top made for it, not super aggressive fenders, but they could be flared out for a track version that would make it look pretty nasty.

- Now for the FFR designs, hate to put down someone hard work, but I'm really not a fan. Front end gives off the impression of a cheap body kit you would buy for a civic and never paint. As a few people have commented I'd say the rear end looks like an MR2(Not a good thing).

So if I had to vote I would place mine for Xaviers, most complete design of the three and looks bad ***. If either Xaviers, NBs, or Olmos car got selected I wouldn't hesitate to purchase, but I don't think I can say that for the FFR design. Super excited to see what comes out of this and can't wait for the final product.


***Edited to make it a little easier to read***

[Doc_FFR]

I have an important question about the Olmos design.

Dave, you said that the rear end was too wide and had to be changed for racing.

Is that the final decision?

What exactly is the problem with a wide rear end?

Is there no way to leave it as is?

[mn_vette]

I loved the Red design! The grey and black looked pretty nice, but there was something that rubbed me the wrong way about the blue one. I think it was the stubby nose and the body was overly wide wheels that narrowed between the wheel set.

I like the idea of starting the track version to get things worked out and get the interior and trim worked out for the street version.

[VTX]

Thanks for doing the video. Nice to see the scale models. My opinions on them, for what it's worth:

1. The first place car - I like it a lot more seeing it in the scale model. I'm not sure about the side vents though. They just don't seem to match the rest of the car. Too curved and "swooping" in my opinion. If those could be fixed I think it's a winner.

2. Xabier's design - Was also very nice looking. It looks the most polished to me. Although seeing the front end in the video that's the only thing I'm not crazy about. The vents almost look too big (tall) and makes the front end just look like it would be creating needless air resistance (strictly from a looks perspective, I'm no expert on vehicle aerodynamics). If it were up to me I'd see if I could make the vents a little shorter to make the front of the the car just a little sleeker and "faster" looking.

3. Olmos design - I seem to be in the minority on this, but I really just don't like this design. It just doesn't look fast to me. It looks kind of clunky IMO. I think it's the front end that does it. It's almost like the hood got chopped off and there's just a big flat front end or something. I like the aggressiveness of the wide rear end, but overall I just really don't like it.

4. FFR Design - I really don't like this design at all. I agree with some of the others that say it resembles an MR2, and that is not a good thing. The front end also just looks strange to me with the one small opening in the middle.

Sorry to be critical on the last two. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings, but just want to give my honest opinion. If one of the first two could be tweaked just slightly, as mentioned above, I think those are your winners.

[adesilva]

I agree with VTX, Between the first place model and Xabiers I think you have two great bodies. I think it was a big mistake to create the first place model in black though, at least on the video it is very difficult to really notice any detail (especially in the front end).

I also am not a fan of the last two.

I think that the first place model would be the perfect convertible (hardtop pleaseee) and xabiers would be a great looking track model. As mentioned previously people could always mix and match the body for their purpose. I think that both of those should go into production (mainly because I just really want to see final fullsize models lol)

I am not sure between the two which I would pick to build yet... its a very difficult decision.

[Pandemic Power]

2. Xabier's design - Was also very nice looking. It looks the most polished to me. Although seeing the front end in the video that's the only thing I'm not crazy about. The vents almost look too big (tall) and makes the front end just look like it would be creating needless air resistance (strictly from a looks perspective, I'm no expert on vehicle aerodynamics). If it were up to me I'd see if I could make the vents a little shorter to make the front of the the car just a little sleeker and "faster" looking.


I like the point you bring up about the front end aerodynamics and being able to improve them by making the openings smaller or all together removing the center opening. Depending on how the radiator is configured in the car, at work so I can't hear the presentation so I dont know if that was covered, you could remove the center opening and then just have the brake ducts. Personally I don't mind the larger openings, but if you're looking for max darg reduction you could get ride of it.

[VTX]

I like the point you bring up about the front end aerodynamics and being able to improve them by making the openings smaller or all together removing the center opening. Depending on how the radiator is configured in the car, at work so I can't hear the presentation so I dont know if that was covered, you could remove the center opening and then just have the brake ducts. Personally I don't mind the larger openings, but if you're looking for max darg reduction you could get ride of it.

I've always kind of liked that look where the middle of the front end is really short and then curves up over the wheels, so what you suggest might actually look pretty good. But I'd have to see it to know for sure.

The front end of a 2012 911 Turbo kind of does this where the center opening is shorter than the brake duct openings. And of course the 918 is also a good example.

[apexanimal]

1st place design i think would look very awkward in full-size... i think the nose will look too short, and the rear far too large...

xabiers i think would be great as the affordable roadster and the track-star... i like the model more now that i've seen video instead of pictures of it...

jim's design is okay... i like the model, but pretty meh about the full-size... although i think it lends itself very well to the high-mileage version...

olmos' design i the surprise for me - i really like it... with the front cross section it would be horrible for the high mileage, but in full track mode i think it would look badass... reminds me of the old dodge copperhead concept that i loved as a kid...


in terms of igniting hair, i think olmos and xabier have it going on... especially if put in track-mode...

the first place and jim's design just don't do it for me, and in full size i think they'll do it even less...


great presentation, and it was good to see some more of the detail in the chassis as far as mounting points and whatnot... I STILL WANT ONE!!

[sid]

I would have to say that Olmos' design is my favorite. Very different from anything else.

I do really like the rear of the 1st place design, but the front looks like a a Honda S2000 mated with a 350z. (it could've been the dark paint not showing the true lines of the car)

I'm not real fan of the other two cars. Don't get me wrong, they are really nice but just don't catch my eye like Rodney's car.

A street car with a targa, soft top, or a coupe should be first before a track version. Something that can be driven in all weather conditions.


Great job on the presntations guys.

[SccrMan13]

I wonder where the point is that aero becomes critical. I know it depends on the track but these are not supposed to be 200 mph machines. They are supposed to be light and nimble. I would think that xabiers design lowered with a front splitter and a wider rear with some sort of spoiler or rear splitter would work on most tracks.

[apexanimal]

it might be just me, but i would think making the track car and the affordable car TOO different (as in completely different shapes) would be a mistake...

part of the fun of being able to see this sexy fast beastly track car, but then buy a more affordable version of it thats more comfortable for everyday use is part of the appeal of building the affordable car... if i just wanted an affordable car, i'd buy something that is being produced right now...

[GUNS]

it might be just me, but i would think making the track car and the affordable car TOO different (as in completely different shapes) would be a mistake...

part of the fun of being able to see this sexy fast beastly track car, but then buy a more affordable version of it thats more comfortable for everyday use is part of the appeal of building the affordable car... if i just wanted an affordable car, i'd buy something that is being produced right now...

That's basically what I said in another thread. As far as which version to release first, why not release the track and street model at the same time? I have to assume that they will be relatively similar. Would it be that difficult?

[skullandbones]

The "Olmos" design really evokes the most visceral response for me. It stands out as being unique. It would be a bada** look. But like Dave said (paraphrase) it may not fit for the track requirements. I would vote for "Olmos" for the street roadster version with a removable top. In my opinion, it would be a shame to compromise the choice if one body style doesn't work for all three "masters". WEK.

[adesilva]

The "Olmos" design really evokes the most visceral response for me. It stands out as being unique. It would be a bada** look. But like Dave said (paraphrase) it may not fit for the track requirements. I would vote for "Olmos" for the street roadster version with a removable top. In my opinion, it would be a shame to compromise the choice if one body style doesn't work for all three "masters". WEK.

I am personally not a big fan of this design mainly because I dont really feel it goes along with the theme of the car. I could imagine this car with a big V8 but not really a turbo 4cyl. I think that the concept of this car was more along the lines of an exotic roadster which will appeal more to being a "world car" as opposed to a muscle car look... but that might just be me

[Silvertop]

After seeing the webcast (great job btw), the Xabier design still remains my clear favorite. Based on the premise that there would be three cars built -- Roadster, Track and MPG, here are my thoughts:

Roadster -- the Xabier design, preferably with a removable and on-board stowable Targa Top. I would also consider building it with a soft top if I couldn't have the Targa, or if the Targa could not be stowed on board. I might also consider the Olmos design constructed as a Roadster or Targa if available. The in-house design is very nice, but it just doesn't scream at me

Track Car -- We haven't really seen a track design yet, though the Xabier would be the odds on favorite there. The Olmos design or the in-house Concept could also serve.

MPG Car -- Probably the Nouphone Bansasi design, but constructed either as a hardtop coupe or a Targa. Olmos design might work really well for that too, if the aerodynamics are as good as they look.

FFR should definitely build the Roadster first, no matter which body they choose for it, because it likely has the highest sales potential. Neither the MPG nor the track car are likely to be on my personal build list, so I'll avoid offering an opinion about which of those to build first.

[David Hodgkins]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5454&d=1319303462

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5453&d=1319303461

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5452&d=1319303461

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5451&d=1319303460

[ElderDragon]

Another point in favor of the targa top is that Factory Five has never done such a model. They have fixed roof cars and open roof roadsters, but no car that can be both and store its top.

[Psay]

Dave

Thanks for the pictures they are great.

Could you please post some more in particular from the rear and also from a lower position as all we have seen at present (pictures and video) is from a high level.

Thanks

[GUNS]

Yea we need more angles. I love the way the rear of olmos's car builds up, but I hate that it drops off in the middle of the rear and droops. I think it would look much better if it didn't drop back down and maintained the same level that it builds up to. Also if you could make the flat part on the front a little smaller I think it would really make this car looks amazing. It has so much potential. I need to see more angles though.

[Jeff Kleiner]

We need some shots from "street level"; how they will be seen in real life at 1:1. The photos above are the equivelent to looking at a car from a second story window.

Cheers,
Jeff

[dclin]

Let's face it - and I think you guys at F5 understand this - what design you choose has a huge impact on the project's success. In the quest to reach a wider audience, there are certain things you will need to overcome, the most significant is the perceived image of the kit car industry. F5 has undoubtedly built a solid reputation among those in the business, but this project will likely bring in many, many people that have never built a kit car before and, as such, F5 has the unenviable position not only educating these new customers as to the quality of F5 products, but overcoming industry misconceptions and differentiate itself from F5's competitors. Let's be blunt here; the majority of the kit car business is based on copying other designs. Outright coping, or even borrowing styling elements, is generally not considered a good thing in the general public.

The only way to overcome this is IMHO, is to come out with something visually fresh and unique and, of the 4 designs presented, the Olmos design has it in spades. While the others are all beautiful in their own rights, they have varying degrees of anonymity.

With absolute respect to Jim's talent, his design unfortunately is too generic; looks sorta like a MR2 or a Boxster. It would probably get a glance, but probably not a second. I hate to say it, but it looks like what I would expect a kit car to look.

The 1st concept is actually starting to look better to me in 'clay', and I would imagine a fullsize would look really good as well. But it too, in my eyes, suffers a little bit as a me-too design. While pretty, it could very well be the product of any given major manufacturer, after a few styling tweaks. It manages to pull in basic design ideas (pinched lower rocker panel to reduce visual weight, flying buttresses), but doesn't manage to be memorable.

Xavier's design's have consistently been a favorite; it manages to evoke small, exotic cars such as Lotus. This would be an easy 2nd choice.

The Olmos design though, is out of this world. It's unlike anything I've seen and, while we could debate whether it's 'pretty' or not, it would DEFINITELY draw in crowds. I can easily imagine the most question as being 'WHAT THE HECK IS THAT??!'

That's the kind of response that F5 needs, and IMHO, I think the Olmos design would be the most successful.


I have an important question about the Olmos design.

Dave, you said that the rear end was too wide and had to be changed for racing.

Is that the final decision?

What exactly is the problem with a wide rear end?

Is there no way to leave it as is?

I picked up on that comment too; is it simply because you are designing around the stock wheel width/offset? I understand that cost considerations have to made, but I think a huge chunk of the Olmos design's appeal would be lost if those flared fenders were toned down. In an argument against making the track narrower, I would argue that there will be very, very few people that would utilize the stock wheels.

If you are building multiple body options, perhaps just leave the Olmos design to require wider/higher offset wheels, and leave the other bodies designed around the stock wheel sizes?

For example, i would ask that you consider a specific wheel set for the Olmos design by working with a company such as www.wheeldude.com, who routinely places orders (or builds... not sure of their relationship to the manufacturer) for production runs of unique offsets and widths (and colors) for the Suby community and others. Here is an example of a nice, concave wheel that would look nice:

http://www.wheeldude.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=6568

Notice that the offset is ET38 on an 18x9.5 5x100 size. If you go up one level, you'll see they already have an ET20 in an 18x9.5 5x114 - having them make the ET20 version in a 5x100 should be pretty easy.

----------------

[el_jefe]

I have an important question about the Olmos design.

Dave, you said that the rear end was too wide and had to be changed for racing.

Is that the final decision?

What exactly is the problem with a wide rear end?

Is there no way to leave it as is?


My guess is that you would need either extended suspension (which would require ditching all the factory subaru parts) or running wheels with really crazy offset. Either way, it makes it a PITA to tune the suspension, and they would have to basically start over again from scratch, both the geometry and the damper tuning.

[bromikl]

I have an important question about the Olmos design.

Dave, you said that the rear end was too wide and had to be changed for racing.

Is that the final decision?

What exactly is the problem with a wide rear end?

Is there no way to leave it as is?

I, too was confused by Dave's comment. I thought the 1/4 scale models would be made as close to production dimensions as possible. I was surprised they mimicked the concept drawings, rather than making the adjustments that would be needed to create a real-world vehicle. I am also referring to the lack of hood vents in three of the four models.

[VTX]

We need some shots from "street level"; how they will be seen in real life at 1:1. The photos above are the equivelent to looking at a car from a second story window.

Cheers,
Jeff

My thoughts exactly. The entire time I was watching the web cast I was thinking "Get that camera lower! I want to see what it looks like from street level!" but he stayed up too high to really get that perspective.

[Join]

olmos' design i the surprise for me - i really like it... with the front cross section it would be horrible for the high mileage, but in full track mode i think it would look badass... reminds me of the old dodge copperhead concept that i loved as a kid...

Olmos's design is the one that change my hearbeat. I'm searching for a track project, and a large airduct from the front up through the hood should help downforce on the front?


..in terms of igniting hair, i think olmos and xabier have it going on... especially if put in track-mode...
I agree!

[thebeerbaron]

I have an important question about the Olmos design.

Dave, you said that the rear end was too wide and had to be changed for racing.

Is that the final decision?

What exactly is the problem with a wide rear end?

Guys (& gals!),

Just got back from the unveiling and am too burnt out to post much now, but expect lots later. I left town at 10 last night, drove until almost 1am, slept a few fitful hours in the second-worst motel I've ever been in (at least it was clean), and then drove back this afternoon. I'm wiped.

As related to me, the issue with the Olmos rear end is that it is SIX inches wider, PER SIDE, than the template. Since the donor bits aren't changing, the body would have to change and that's a lot of change.

I was frankly pulling for the Olmos design before I saw the model, but seeing it in the flesh really changed my mind. Someone else (who shall remain nameless because I forget who said it) used the word "cartoonish". Think Jessica Rabbit. More later.

[wooward]

I'm not sure what the demographic of the factory five forum members are made up of but looking at ffr's past model lineup, I would say it is of the 40+ muscle car enthusiasts. Being 27 and of the import tuner crowd, I've never had much interest in ffr until the gtm and 818. The 818 is actually a car I want to build and I'm hoping the chosen design appeals more to the younger generation as well like the gtm. I'm not so sure the Olmos design does that and I'm not sure if I would even buy it. I might have to abandon the 818 project all together. Its currently a little too radical for me. Ok for the track but I don't think I would like it for the street roadster. Since I'm planning on building a street roadster. I'm hoping this one doesn't win as is.

[adesilva]

I'm not sure what the demographic of the factory five forum members are made up of but looking at ffr's past model lineup, I would say it is of the 40+ muscle car enthusiasts. Being 27 and of the import tuner crowd, I've never had much interest in ffr until the gtm and 818. The 818 is actually a car I want to build and I'm hoping the chosen design appeals more to the younger generation as well like the gtm. I'm not so sure the Olmos design does that and I'm not sure if I would even buy it. I might have to abandon the 818 project all together. Its currently a little too radical for me. Ok for the track but I don't think I would like it for the street roadster. Since I'm planning on building a street roadster. I'm hoping this one doesn't win as is.

Couldnt agree more, I am 23 and think that model simply isnt what FF is going for on this car. It has too much of a muscle car look, I came into this project sort of thinking I would be able to get something exotic looking with great performance at an amazing price. Out of the following 4 cars the red and black ones have the "potential" to do that. I had intentions of going to the open house this morning because I live so close to FF but sadly I ended up getting called into work so the video was my only option.

The main thing that I am surprised about is the design FF came up with. While it certainly isnt ugly in anyway it seems so tame for what I thought they were going for. From the leaked photos I thought they may be going for a look similar to the Carrera GT but after seeing this it screams S2000 to me. The rear end isn't my favorite too, sort of reminds me of a stripped down version of the gtm.

I would really like to see the first place car full size with possibly a bit more of an aggressive looking front end (and different exhaust tips) I am excited to see what happens in the near future. Things could end up coming together very quickly

[Draco-REX]

I will vote for the Olmos design, hands down. Even if it will not have crazy fender flares, it will still be a major head turner. And I can always add flares later. :D

I'm watching the presentation now since I couldn't at work. I'm very impressed on how FFR used three different methods to design and model the bodies. I wish I had been a part of that, as it must've been an *amazing* learning experience. I'm just flat out envious.

Having a better look at the models, I could live with any of them, but I think I'll bump the "black" car to the bottom of my list. It's just too smooth, too conservative.

Whatever is chosen, this will be a great car. :) It's too bad FFR can't make all four bodies and let us choose when we order with swappable body mounts.

[adesilva]

I appear to have a bit of a different outlook than most here (may be because im younger than most) but my favorites are the red and black.

Xabiers has a really nice exotic look to it which I really like. It has some Ferrari type of looks to it that I am a big fan of.

The black car I feel really isnt getting any recognition because of the fact that its black. A lot of the lines are lost because of the color and especially the front end looks almost like a carved bar of soap because its very hard to tell where vents are etc. After looking at the video a few more times I have become a much bigger fan of this car and think it reminds me a lot of an Aston Martin (mainly the front end) it has that typical aston front opening which you could easily get a nice billet grill going in there and you could have that look if someone wanted it. Who wouldnt want to be James Bond haha

Overall those are the two cars I would be interested in ... the blue one simply rubs me the wrong way and I couldnt picture myself building it.

[BrandonDrums]

I appear to have a bit of a different outlook than most here (may be because im younger than most) but my favorites are the red and black.

Xabiers has a really nice exotic look to it which I really like. It has some Ferrari type of looks to it that I am a big fan of.

The black car I feel really isnt getting any recognition because of the fact that its black. A lot of the lines are lost because of the color and especially the front end looks almost like a carved bar of soap because its very hard to tell where vents are etc. After looking at the video a few more times I have become a much bigger fan of this car and think it reminds me a lot of an Aston Martin (mainly the front end) it has that typical aston front opening which you could easily get a nice billet grill going in there and you could have that look if someone wanted it. Who wouldnt want to be James Bond haha

Overall those are the two cars I would be interested in ... the blue one simply rubs me the wrong way and I couldnt picture myself building it.

I think the black car isn't getting any recognition because it just looks enormous. The lines and the shape just make it look like a super GT car with like a front mounted twin turbo V6 or something, not a small light agile mid-engine 4 cyl. Visually, the Olmos and Xabier designs look more like an agressive but small and nimble mini super car. The first place competition design I always thought looked like it was a beautiful car in the wrong competition.

That should be the next Nissan Z car, not a super light kit car monster killer IMHO. I think my thoughts, in some for or another are shared and that's why it still has so little votes.