Bulletproof engine and transmission

[Packer fan]

Hi,
I am trying to decide which car to build.
The reason I looked at factory five several years ago was because or the mk4 roadster.
I always thought that was a great example of too much is almost enough, and ffv builds a awesome chassis.

About two weeks ago I was in Columbus and I stopped by Forma Cars to see what they are doing with relocating the shifter when using a coyote engine with the mt82 transmission and I saw three cars they are are building/ have built. I must say, they are doing some really neat stuf with all of them. Forma cars is really a hobby for a company that makes parts for many other things. They have an increadable shop and also CAD designers. I believe that between ffv and FormaCars you will be able to get a really refined product. The neat part is that they are not competeing with ffv but refining around the edges. In the next 6 months to a year you will probably hear and see much more of what they are up to.

Now, to what I really started this thread for.
When I went to the FormaCars shop I was able to see all of the cars I'm interested in. The mk4 is what I expected. The 65 Coupe is a car I would love to build, except for one thing. It is tough to get into, and good luck getting the wife to go for casual rides. The real surprise is how much I liked the 818. It looks increadable, and sounds like the performance is also pretty crazy. It does also sound like the engine and transmission are having a tough time being able to hold up to the 300hp at the rear wheels point. And I think that is about where the real fun starts.
Is there anyone here that is having any luck with that level of performance, and with what? Otherwise I'm probably looking at a mk4.

Thanks in advance,
Jim

[NateInPGH]

I'm not sure where you are getting the impression that the engine and transmission have a hard time holding 300whp. Maybe with some of the blocks with a bunch of miles on them and the older style 5MT that could be the case.

I have a 2013 WRX at 400whp for well over 2 years with no issue, that is the EJ255 with a 5MT. My tuner feels comfortable with a stock internal WRX 2.5l block up to about 330 on 93 and 400 on E85. Stock internal STi blocks would be higher than that. Plenty of people run 300whp thru the 5MT in AWD config without issue.

My 818 build is based around the same transmission (except a 2014) and an over built IAG block (deal was too good to pass on). I am completely confident in the ability to push the engine and transmission to the ~500whp we are expecting from the configuration.

[GoDadGo]

Hi,
The 65 Coupe is a car I would love to build, except for one thing. It is tough to get into, and good luck getting the wife to go for casual rides.

Thanks in advance,
Jim

Jim,

My pal Jerry has a Gen-1 Type 65 which has a lot less room than the current version that uses the Space Frame Design.
The trick to getting into his car (Gen-1 Coupe) is to go in head first and then sit down.
A removable steering wheel makes things even better, but is not required.
After 3 or 4 Attempts I Had It Down!
The Head-First Method makes it very easy to get in; however, getting out tends to be more a freestyle style method.
My wife's main complaint about the entry & exit techniques is that this is not a Skirt nor Dress friendly car, hence we are building a MK-4 instead.
Good Luck & Welcome To The Fun You Are About To Have!

Steve

[AZPete]

Jim, as a Vikings fan (Yeah!) who now lives in Cardinal (Ugh) territory, I'm reluctant to help you (:p). I built a MK3 and an 818 and I'm 6'3" so I can assure you the 818 is much easier to get into & out of. Here's why:
In the Roadster(Mk4), the door hinge is at my knee when I'm seated in it. In the 818, the door hinge is halfway between my knee and ankle. This means that getting into my 818 I can bend over and put my butt on the seat, then pull my legs up and in. That's not possible in the Roadster, so I had to climb in from the top to get my feet in first, then my butt down into the seat. Getting out is the reverse. In the 818, I pull up my knees and put my feet out, then exit. Exiting the Roadster means lifting myself straight up with my arms, then almost standing up to get my feet out. To my 818S I added the hardtop, so now it's an 818C, but I couldn't add any kind of top to my Roadster or I'd never get into it.. Assuming you are in Wisconsin, you'll need a top for the 50-week winter.

Re horses, remember these things are light so over 300 may not perform better than under 300. My 818 with a stock-ish 2.5 WRX outperforms the Roadster I built with a stock-ish 4.6L, because it's lighter.

[Packer fan]

Where are you guys getting the donor cars?

Jim

[NateInPGH]

Where are you guys getting the donor cars?

Jim

Personally - I'm not using a donor. A buddy of mine did a 6 speed swap in his GR, I bought his 5MT. My tuner dialed back his Subaru projects and sold me his block. The rest of the bits and pieces you need from the donor car I have sourced thru various places. Some have been new OEM, some are new aftermarket upgrades, and some have come from salvage cars. Finding all the bits gets annoying at times - using a donor would be a lot easier. But, I knew there were a number of parts from a donor that I wouldn't use - even beyond what would normally be parted out and I don't like selling parts, so I went this route.

[turbomacncheese]

I got mine from a copart auction.

[Sgt.Gator]

i am 6'3" and had no problem getting i/out of a Gen 3 Coupe at SEMA.

As for the Subaru engine/tranny longevity, I don't think it's an issue for any street driven 818S. The problems crop up when you hit the track with sticky R tires and aero downforce due to high G oil starvation. But if you want to put 300 HP in an 818S you can easily do that with a Subaru EJ Turbo motor and it will last if you build and tune it right.

[DigDug]

I'm interested in the 818, especially with the idea of getting this kind of performance in a car for under $20,000, but I have a concern. A search for donor cars in the specified date range turns-up cars with mileage of almost (or more than) 200,000 miles. Do you really want to put an engine with that many miles into a "new" car? It might be one thing if you knew how the engine had been maintained, but it seems like a lot to gamble on to make the investment to buy the kit and build the car and then bet on an unknown engine with that many miles. Am I underestimating the Subaru longevity? Or are people rebuilding the engines or swapping in a lower mileage engine? Either of those add to the cost of the build obviously, and lessen the cool factor around getting a performace car for low bucks. Am I missing something?

Thanks!

[Sgt.Gator]

Under $20K is almost impossible unless you go total economy and old donor parts on everything.

[Mechie3]

My 2006 WRX made 312hp and 451 tq (crank, not wheel) and blew up third gear going to work. Shifted into second, accelerated, merged onto highway, third, accel....bam!

I'll second the $20k is difficult without cutting corners. Replacing seals, bearings, coating things, and doing things right gets expensive.

[turbomacncheese]

Agreed. I'm at $16,753 right now(includes DIY engine rebuild, which I still haven't fired up and tested yet), and Abe Lincoln ducks every time he sees me coming because he's tired of getting pinched. Add in tools that I've bought to facilitate the build and I'm at a little over 19k. Haven't even bought a radiator or seats yet (front end collision radiator was twisted so I skipped the hassle, and the seats were uber dirty and HEAVY). Good luck!!

[DigDug]

The $20K was based on reading the description at Factory 5 website: $12,990 for the kit, and "everything" else you need from a donor car, prices ranging from $3K to $7K depending on year, condition and mileage = <$20K. Guess I shouldn't believe "everything" I read!

It didn't sound realistic to use an engine with 200K miles and not have some expense to freshen it, but like I said, I'm not familiar with Subaru longevity. So (realistically) what kind of money are people spending outside of the kit cost? Or put another way, what kind of $$ to rebuild/prep the engine/drivetrain?

[turbomacncheese]

If you get a running donor, plop the pieces right into the kit, and don't break anything, you're golden. But it will be no more reliable than the donor would have been. FWIW my donor required some...work...because it was super cheap.
The problem is that it is really difficult to have a 200k mile brake caliper in your hands and know you could rebuild it for 10 bucks and NOT do it.
Or have a crusty bracket that you could blast and paint and NOT do it.
Or have the engine/trans in front of you and know the clutch will never be easier to replace, and NOT do it.
Or bushings, or hoses, or wheel bearings, etc.

A lot of the money spent over 20k is like pre-paying maintenance costs for some of us. For others, that money gets spent REAL quick on racing goodies. The real question is how comfortable you'd feel just driving the donor as-is...after taking it all apart and putting it back together with no repairs. If you'd feel good about it, go for it. Expect the maintenance to come up later, just like it would with any other car. For me, it's difficult to put this much work in something and expect to take it apart again soon to fix it (and I make some pretty...challenging...decisions).

[lsfourwheeler]

The $20K was based on reading the description at Factory 5 website: $12,990 for the kit, and "everything" else you need from a donor car, prices ranging from $3K to $7K depending on year, condition and mileage = <$20K. Guess I shouldn't believe "everything" I read!

It didn't sound realistic to use an engine with 200K miles and not have some expense to freshen it, but like I said, I'm not familiar with Subaru longevity. So (realistically) what kind of money are people spending outside of the kit cost? Or put another way, what kind of $$ to rebuild/prep the engine/drivetrain?

I'm actually going through the process of rebuilding donor drivetrain parts right now. I had an unknown-condition engine and a higher mileage transmission. It cost be about $1K for engine rebuild components- complete gasket kit, water pump, oil pump, timing kit, bearings, piston rings. I'll be spending another $600-$700 on cleaning up the engine parts and machining my 2.0L heads to match my 2.5L block. For my transmission, I bought a $260 OBX diff that was used but in very good shape. Then there's probably another $100 in replaced bolts, sealant, and shop supplies.

So, long story short, you're looking at about $2K or a little more to refurbish a high-mileage or unknown condition donor engine and transmission to top-running shape.

[NetWRX]

I broke even after I sold all the parts I didn't need from the donor. I still have a few left too. After its all said and done I expect to have made more from parts than I spent on the donor. I still expect to spend more than 20k on my build though. I'm just too particular. Like Turbomacncheese I have a hard time not doing preventative maintenance while its all apart. I think if you buy a sedan as opposed to a wagon you will be surprised how much you can recoup by selling parts.

[turbomacncheese]

Ha, I had a wagon and didn't manage to sell too much of it!! And it was one of the Saabarus, to boot.