Anyone having long term success without using a dry sump system?

[lclevert]

Is anyone having relatively long term success tracking these cars hard without using a dry sump system? If so, can you describe your setup?

It looks like I just put a rod through the crankcase. I haven't torn it down yet to see if I can determine the cause yet but my assumption is an oiling issue. Giant fireball when that happened.

Before I start looking for another motor, I'm interested in what has been working for others.

Thanks

Skip
74129

[Sgt.Gator]

Sorry to hear that. Hope the fireball didn't do too much collateral damage!
What type oiling system were you running? Stock? Killer Bee pan? Accumulator (Canton or Moroso)?

[Turboguy]

How is it that guys with WRX's and STi's can beat the snot out of their cars on the track with no issues, but the 818Rs are blowing up engines left, right and center?

[Sgt.Gator]

How is it that guys with WRX's and STi's can beat the snot out of their cars on the track with no issues, but the 818Rs are blowing up engines left, right and center?

Because 818Rs corner at much higher G forces. A better comparison would be Unlimited Time Attack STI's which almost all now run dry sumps.

[lclevert]

Motor is (was) an 03 WRX with VF39 turbo and pink injectors. It was pulled this way from the donor and I don't know its history. I added STI oil pan, 2QT accusump and external oil cooler. I just had it tuned and was about 290HP.

For the little time that it ran, this car was 10 seconds a lap faster than my 4.6L DOHC cobra around Barber and I haven't had enough time to even figure out how to drive it yet. It blew on the 4th lap. I've had it on the track twice before and didn't make more than 3 laps before experiencing other issues that I had to fix, wheel bearing the first time, fuel starvation the second.

These cars will be stupid fast and stupid fun if you can get the motor to hold together.

[Hindsight]

Sorry to hear of the engine issue lclevert!

[lance corsi]

You can look at my setup in "first 818 coupe" build. I haven't updated it for a while, but my custom oilpan & swinging pickup is shown there. I have about $150 in it plus time. Haven't tried it yet but it will work! I've also added a remote filter with a larger oil filter & oil cooler.

[RetroRacing]

Been there, done that....
First time, ran with the killer bee set up, took out a rod bearing. Second time, pulled it to 9K with the dry sump and the rod came through the top, aaaaaand FIREBALL!

With all due respect to Killer bee, They make awesome stuff, for an R model, I just would not recommend it (just my opinion, please don't take it as in anyway dissing the product).
All my pics are too big for the site, but I can email them if you PP me your email address. Great system.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I think Mitch Wright is running a killer Bee setup successfully.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?22572-818r-ncm-msp

Bob

[C.Plavan]

Without a drysump it's just a matter of time I'm afraid. Heck- With a drysump there can be issues.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Without a drysump it's just a matter of time I'm afraid. Heck- With a drysump there can be issues.

I agree with Chad. I'm was running stock 04 FXT tune. (194hp) engine had 90k on it.
I was running accusump. I lost rod bearings during my 6th track day. About 30 hours running at race pace.
I now have dry sump system.
Bob

[NevaLift2Shift]

How is it that guys with WRX's and STi's can beat the snot out of their cars on the track with no issues, but the 818Rs are blowing up engines left, right and center?

I was out at the track a month ago and met a guy with a WRX that had quite a bit of suspension work, some sticky street tires and blew his engine that day. He had a G meter on his phone and was consistently pulling 1.2G's and peaking at 1.5G's. That track had lots of long double apex high speed sweepers. It was his 10th day out at the track, so it wasn't immediate. A lot of similar issues with 818's, it doesn't blow immediately, but 5-10 track days, starts getting a knock. Of course, more G's will shorten the engine life if oiling is not sufficient.

I'm very cheap, but I felt it is a cost savings to go with a dry sump system. If you are going to track your car, your engine will not last with a wet sump. It will last longer with a dry sump. ;)

[lance corsi]

I was out at the track a month ago and met a guy with a WRX that had quite a bit of suspension work, some sticky street tires and blew his engine that day. He had a G meter on his phone and was consistently pulling 1.2G's and peaking at 1.5G's. That track had lots of long double apex high speed sweepers. It was his 10th day out at the track, so it wasn't immediate. A lot of similar issues with 818's, it doesn't blow immediately, but 5-10 track days, starts getting a knock. Of course, more G's will shorten the engine life if oiling is not sufficient.

I'm very cheap, but I felt it is a cost savings to go with a dry sump system. If you are going to track your car, your engine will not last with a wet sump. It will last longer with a dry sump. ;)
Flop tubes and swinging pickups are currently used in roadracing motorcycles, aerobatic planes, and road racing cars. They offer a much simpler solution that most people can afford. I've heard a lot of horror stories about ds systems, loose fittings, thrown belts, bad seals, plus the cost. The goal is to keep your oil pickup in the oil, no matter how you do it.

[Mitch Wright]

I am using a wet sump without issue to date. I do collect data via my AIM MXL and Cobb Data Port and have yet to see any oil pressure drop during high G cornering or oil temp issues. (we have a number of long high load high G 1.5-1.7 corners here on slicks)
Bob is correct I am using a KB pan, pick up and windage tray and oil control valve and Crawford AOS.
Only based on what I have seen from data on my car a question I ask is could loosing a bearing/rod be caused by something else like detonation? In no way am I saying a DS is a bad idea but I do believe a good wet sump can do the job.

[RetroRacing]

We run slicks, and used to run the killer b set up with an aos, lost a rod bearing first time out. For all I know, it could be under braking, as we pull massive g's in the brake zones as well.

If things are working for anyone running a pan set up, I say go for it. Our experience is just different. BTW, anyone want to buy a Killer B set up?

[phil1734]

Mitch do you overfill at all?

I've been on and off involved in a LeMons effort pretty much since the series started (2007 if memory serves me correctly) and the only motor we've ever gone through was due to a missed shift. Sure we aren't pulling 818R G levels, and it's not an EJ, but I'd bet since the engine was R&R'd a few years ago it's seen an average of 30 hard hours of racing and track days per year and never had an issue and our only precaution is to overfill by a quart and top off every few hours.

I ask because I would do the same if I were to track my 818S, but given the angle of the engine I'm already nearly an inch over the full mark on the dip stick and would start to worry about the front of the crank hitting the oil.

[Hindsight]

I overfill mine. Not nearly an inch though. Probably 1/2". Knock on wood, no issue yet. Running a stock deep oil pan (04-07 STI and 06-07 WRX), killer b pickup, killer b baffle, and crawford AOS. Running Star Specs, not slicks (though people say those are better than many slicks). I also check and top-up if needed between runs. These engines can consume a surprising amount of oil on the track and I often wonder if people are running them low without realizing it. Not suggestion that's the reason for everyone's or anyone's failure though - just wondering. I know when I ran Mobile1, I was shocked when I checked the oil after a session. It lost what appeared to be a quart. Switched to a different oil and now it only burns up to about .5 to 1 qt after five 20-minute sessions. My engine is a stock EJ255 out of a 2007 WRX donor which had 60k miles on it when I pulled it. I've put about 3,000 street miles on it and 18 hard track hours.

I REALLY didn't want to post this because I feel like I'm tempting fate!

[phil1734]

Are you overfilling by volume? Or just on the dip-stick? I'm supposed to fill up with 4.5 quarts, but I always give it the full 5qt jug.

I didn't want to be the guy that pointed out the obvious but as discussed previously you should be a healthy amount over the original full line because the angle of the engine is backwards from what it used to be in the donor car. Seat of my pants guesstimate but 1/2" sounds reasonable.

And yes, every turbo motor burns oil when run hard. Even the top-tier now defunct LMP1 cars would fill 'er up with every tire change.

[SixStar]

Killer B pan, pickup and tray. 6.5 quarts. No issues for ~3 years now.

[Mitch Wright]

I run 6.5 quarts of 15-50 Mobil 1 Racing oil. The data shows my oil pressure stays consistent related to RPM low oil pressure of 60psi and high of 85psi (water temp 175 oil temp 175) once the oil temp get to around 220 and above the high is high 70's - low 80psi range.

[Hindsight]

Are you overfilling by volume? Or just on the dip-stick? I'm supposed to fill up with 4.5 quarts, but I always give it the full 5qt jug.

Just dip-stick. That is a good point about the tilt of the engine. The transmission fluid level ends up being very high on the dipstick when filling with the OEM quantity of oil. I cut a new notch in the transmission dipstick. Probably should do the same with the engine, but for now I just over fill it to where the oil level is somewhere around the bottom to middle portion of the twisted part of the dipstick. But the issue for me is that I can't really do engine oil by volume because I have a remote oil cooler and about 12' or so of -10AN hose going to and from it. I have no clue what volume I'm running, and while I could probably calculate it based on hose size and oil cooler volume, I'll probably just stick with the dipstick.

[DanielsDM]

SixStar, Mitch, Hindsight,
Are you running an accusump? How do you use the car, (autocross, track day, time trial, racing)? How hard do you push it, right at the grip limit or 8/10 and having fun?

[Hindsight]

No Accusump for me. I'd love one, but haven't made it a priority over other improvements. I run track-days and drive it on the street. On the track, I drive pretty close to, or right at 10/10ths of my ability which is evidenced by my going off the track about 4 or 5 times this year at two different tracks.

[Mitch Wright]

Driving at the limit is relative to drivers experience and skill IMHO. Lap times the car is running are more than competitive when compared to NASA ST2/TT2 times run here at NCM.
No I don't have a Accusump, the car is tracked and is driven very aggressively. No I haven't raced it yet but have a lot of track miles on the car.

[SixStar]

SixStar, Mitch, Hindsight,
Are you running an accusump? How do you use the car, (autocross, track day, time trial, racing)? How hard do you push it, right at the grip limit or 8/10 and having fun?

No Accusump. Mostly AX for now. It's done two TT events with two more this year. All racing, all 10/10ths.

https://youtu.be/5dWTh6CllZM

[lclevert]

After tearing the engine down, it does not look like my problem was oil starvation related. I broke the #1 rod for some reason. One of the rod cap nuts was missing. I don't know if that was the cause of the problem or a by-product of the crankshaft beating the rod to death.

I'm not sure yet if I will go with another 2.0, a 2.5, or do a hybrid. Much of the wiring is toast from the fire. I think I will do a dry sump just for peace of mind. Thanks for all the input and discussion.

Skip

[NevaLift2Shift]

After tearing the engine down, it does not look like my problem was oil starvation related. I broke the #1 rod for some reason. One of the rod cap nuts was missing. I don't know if that was the cause of the problem or a by-product of the crankshaft beating the rod to death.

I'm not sure yet if I will go with another 2.0, a 2.5, or do a hybrid. Much of the wiring is toast from the fire. I think I will do a dry sump just for peace of mind. Thanks for all the input and discussion.

Skip


Do you do a lot of heavy engine braking? Got any pictures of the carnage?

[lclevert]

The engine came from a donor car with about 90k miles. I don't know its history. I didn't have very much time on the engine. I'll get some pictures posted this afternoon.

[Turboguy]

No Accusump. Mostly AX for now. It's done two TT events with two more this year. All racing, all 10/10ths.

https://youtu.be/5dWTh6CllZM


I watched the video you posted. I'm not exactly an expert on this, but it doesn't seem to me like the car is generating anywhere near the type of g-forces that would be experienced on a race track.


When I say that I mean no sustained high-g corners no 160 -> 50 braking zones.

[NevaLift2Shift]

I watched the video you posted. I'm not exactly an expert on this, but it doesn't seem to me like the car is generating anywhere near the type of g-forces that would be experienced on a race track.


When I say that I mean no sustained high-g corners no 160 -> 50 braking zones.

AX definitely does not have the sustained loads that HPDE's and road course generate, like you said. Another thing is engine braking on road courses have been said to be especially tough on the engine rods. They were not really designed to be pulled on (engine decel) vs pushed together (engine accel).

[RetroRacing]

Very true!! the rod we had let go on decal.....from 9k, but still it was decal that killed it.

[lclevert]

Here are some pictures of the damage: rod, rod cap, piston, and block.

74623

74624

74625

74626

[Turboguy]

bah - that'll polish right out :D


Are those stock rods and hardware ?

[lclevert]

I assume it is all stock but I am new to subaru and can't tell by looking at it.

[Scargo]

FWIW, I know a guy in CT who has an all new parts destroker Ej 255 engine for sale. Built by Larry's Auto machine (place with a great reputation for Subaru machining and race motor builds) it is all new high-end parts with 1/2" studs, Darton sleeves and ringed for big boost and high RPM. All the good stuff for making huge power or just turn 9K comfortably at 300-400 WHP. Never run. He wants 17K for it. He's moving so he is selling off projects. Message me if you want to get in touch with him. I'd buy it and DS it if I wasn't full-up on engines to build already. I have a destroker to assemble for my R...
As to whether an engine can live without DS: I think anecdotal evidence is worthless in this discussion. Those who have tracked a stock, used engine are likely doomed to begin with. If you build an engine properly, for racing, with a KB setup AND oil cooler and Accusump then you stand a chance. It's G's folks! At some point the oil will stay in the head and the pickup sucks air. I don't think a swivel pickup will help that very much if at all.
If you stay lower on the power and tire size and do low G tracks then you may never have an issue. I was just at a track that has no banking and even an off-camber turn or two. Was fun sliding around but hard to generate high G's.
Yes, it's my DAVCS EJ257 track STi but with my 285 Hoosier R7's I can generate some G's on banked turns. I have ran this engine with much the setup as mentioned above, for seven track days so far at 430 or 470 WHP and often bumping 8K limiter. I would have to go back over my data-logging to see exact G's but it's generally under 1.5. I video my gauges and never notice low pressure spikes. Front of galley pressure might average 75 @200°F while back of galley to head will measure 10 to 20 less.

[lance corsi]

The clearances in a subie engine are such that oil couldn't possibly be building up in the head unless the sweeping turn is extremely long. Oil problems are totally inside the oil pan, where the oil sloshes away from the fixed pickup. Add to that, the engine tilts opposite from design intent, causing oil to pool towards the front of the pan. Running a little extra oil would help, but not a proper fix. The oil pooling in the heads is not a factor.

[lance corsi]

Compression is not considered a destructive force, but tension is!

[Scargo]

The clearances in a subie engine are such that oil couldn't possibly be building up in the head unless the sweeping turn is extremely long. Oil problems are totally inside the oil pan, where the oil sloshes away from the fixed pickup. Add to that, the engine tilts opposite from design intent, causing oil to pool towards the front of the pan. Running a little extra oil would help, but not a proper fix. The oil pooling in the heads is not a factor.
I am at a loss for words! If it sloshes out of the pan where does it end up? Clearances? What clearances? Clearances related to what?

[lance corsi]

Okay, let's try this again. The clearances between the camshafts and their corresponding journals is less than .002". The clearance between the tappet buckets and their corresponding bores is less than .002". 2 cams x 3 journals plus 8 tappet buckets per head. There is no freaking way you could force a significant quantity of oil thru these small clearances to fill a head during even the longest carousel sweeper on any track!
Who actually documented this phenomenon? I'm a huge doubter that this has ever been the cause of oil starvation. But what could possibly cause cavitation? The oil pickup being momentarily uncovered by oil would do it. The subie engine not only has a windage tray to prevent oil contacting the crankshaft, as well as another anti-slosh baffle lower in the oil pan. There is enough volume within the pan to allow enough oil contained therein to be thrown centrifugally against the pan side, therefore possibly uncovering the stationary oil pickup.
Now, lastly, the dry sump systems do not scavenge the heads, just the area below the crank, where the pan used to be. There is no significant oil in the heads to reduce the overall system level, therefore no need for scavenging the heads.
Maybe you haven't bothered to check the oil passages within a subie head, but I have. Pressurized air @ 90 psi will barely pass thru the oil clearances, no volume tho. Don't take my word for it tho, check it out yourself.

[Sgt.Gator]

Lance, why do catch cans and AOS's attached to the head vents fill rapidly and overflow onto the ground or back into the intake on Subaru track/race cars?

Example: "I'm trying to figure out why the oil catch can would fill up extremely quick. Five minutes of driving on the track and it already has 3/4 of a quart of oil in it. Longer than that and you end up with a giant mess. The car isn't burning oil and the engine was recently rebuilt. It's running perfectly otherwise.

Right now one line from each valve cover goes to a T and then that goes to the inlet of the can. The outlet of the can goes into the intake before the turbo.

The breather from the block is in its original configuration. The odd thing is that the FMIC piping isn't full of oil. Its as if the valve covers are being pressurized with oil or something.

Anyone have this happen?"
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2297363

There's a ton of threads on NASIOC and IWISTI about the heads filling with oil.

[DodgyTim]

I always assumed the concern was oil flowing in reverse up the block/head oil drain passages
74762

When we have one g of lateral load (could be acceleration, lateral or braking) the oil surface is 45 degrees to horizontal
74763

It gets worse though, at 1.5 lateral g's it becomes 56 degrees
74764

[lance corsi]

The factory aos is designed to allow the condensed oil to return to the sump. Is your aos plumbed back into the sump? This is a separate problem from cavitation, not unrelated tho if not plumbed correctly. Your scenario doesn't involve the head being filled with oil, only that you are losing oil thru your aos, thus lowering the volume for lubricating the engine.

[Sgt.Gator]

What factory AOS? Please show it to me. If you are thinking of the factory PCV system, that works fine for street engines with factory blow by and cornering at factory Gs. But it is not a catch can or AOS. It's just a system for venting the heads and crank of stock blow by and burning them by sucking the gases thru the intake. However it gets overwhelmed in loose built forged motors with powerful turbos, and high G track cars.

That's why Crawford, Perrin, Killer Bee and a few more make AOSs, and those get overwhelmed in high G race cars by the oil exiting the head vents. Even Crawford admits they disconnect their drainback on their race cars and dump the oil into a large catch can that has to be emptied often at the track.

[SixStar]

AX definitely does not have the sustained loads that HPDE's and road course generate, like you said. Another thing is engine braking on road courses have been said to be especially tough on the engine rods. They were not really designed to be pulled on (engine decel) vs pushed together (engine accel).

You're right! AX generates MUCH higher G forces then HPDE does.

Not sure I've ever seen a 3200# road race car on two wheels in a perfectly flat corner at a DE event :D

74770

[lance corsi]

Just a suggestion, but have you considered a small electric pump, float level switch actuated, to return said oil to your sump? Or how about adding a scavenge stage to your ds pump?

[Sgt.Gator]

Just a suggestion, but have you considered a small electric pump, float level switch actuated, to return said oil to your sump? Or how about adding a scavenge stage to your ds pump?

If this was meant for me: I don't have an AOS, never have used one. My DS systems run fully sealed and pull 7" to 12" of vacuum on their scavenge. You may be confused by the quote I posted earlier, it was just an example (one of many) from a thread on NASIOC.

BTW, I too have a Killer B pan for sale. It's off my Spec B that spun a bearing in the first twenty minutes of track time at Oregon Raceway Park. I've also been an instructor for a first time WRX HPDE driver at ORP. On his last session of the day when he was stepping up the speed he too spun a bearing, but on the oem system.

[lance corsi]

I question whether the subie platform is a good candidate for racing. I have watched the wrc for years, Subaru specifically, but they don't say anything about their engine woes. I'm sure they have some. Obviously they dont want to shed dim light on their marque.
The subie motor is a very precise piece and apparently won't tolerate much abuse before giving up. There. I'm finished with this. If you want your subie based 818 to hold up, don't try racing it. Happy Dry Sumping!

[Blwalker105]

Seems to me the obvious design limitation is Subaru’s not having designed in a method to keep the oil in the pan during hard cornering in the first place. Seems possible to build some 1-way flapper doors that would allow oil to normally drain out of the heads but would slam closed when hit with a big slug of high-g oil coming the other direction. I can think of three places: the bottom of the block, the drainback holes in the block and the drainback holes in the heads. I am not yet familiar with the bottom of the block, but this would seem the most likely place to let gravity keep the doors open. I would then hinge them at their outboard sides and limit their downward movement depending on space available.

[Sgt.Gator]

Seems to me the obvious design limitation is Subaru’s not having designed in a method to keep the oil in the pan during hard cornering in the first place. Seems possible to build some 1-way flapper doors that would allow oil to normally drain out of the heads but would slam closed when hit with a big slug of high-g oil coming the other direction. I can think of three places: the bottom of the block, the drainback holes in the block and the drainback holes in the heads. I am not yet familiar with the bottom of the block, but this would seem the most likely place to let gravity keep the doors open. I would then hinge them at their outboard sides and limit their downward movement depending on space available.

Cosworth makes, or made, that using rubber gates. It also includes a builtin crank scraper. I bought four of them used from the Vermont Sports Car Team, the guys that build/race the Subaru rally cars in North America :
https://www.rallysportdirect.com/part/oil-control-devices/cos1-20002499-cosworth-oil-control-baffle

https://images.rallysportdirect.com/image/private/s--pzFNB3iQ--/f_auto,t_category/v1/product_images/fpfj0ap4bse7jccpok0d

The rubber gates eventually start to sag and have to be replaced, but most race engines are torn down anyway before that becomes an issue.

If you've never looked over the Vermont Sports Cars Project Cars they are pretty awesome! http://vtcar.com/projects/

[Hindsight]

I wondered the same thing. People make baffles for the LS series engines that have a bunch of hinged gates. Not sure why this isn't done with Subaru.

[Blwalker105]

There you go! But rubber seems like a strange choice unless you just want to guarantee more income by making people purchase them based on time intervals. A better, lifetime choice of door material would be stainless steel, assuming the baffle plate is made of similar material. Continually being bathed in oil would ensure a constant lubrication barrier from metal actually hitting metal during closing sequences. Each door would have individual rubber-tipped stops to limit downward travel to, say 1/8”. I’d buy one in a heartbeat.

[Blwalker105]

OK, this age-old Subaru lubrication problem has been longing for a solution and it has inspired me to really put my thinking cap on. I can't give too much away just yet, at least until my patent-attorney meeting in 2 weeks, but I am pretty confident I can at least substantially ease the burden of this system by keeping the oil from back-flowing into the heads and keeping the pickup covered out to between 1.2 - 1.5 lateral g's. In stock and aftermarket pans, oil starts to leave the pan at 0.75 g's and can un-port the pickup at 1 g.

Stay tuned!

[Blwalker105]

Oh, I almost forgot...it will be compatible with all WRX and STI oil pans, stock pickups as well as KillerB pickups, oil pans and maybe Moroso pickups with a little grinder work.

[Scargo]

"The factory aos is designed to allow the condensed oil to return to the sump." * I disagree.
What factory A/OS system are you referring to in your statement? Are you referring to what's at the back of the case under the PVC valve? Are you mixing aftermarket systems in with the factory emissions system? Under what conditions does it do this?
As to aftermarket A/OS I have seen so many people who are afraid of "dirty mayonnaise" or blowby getting back into the engine. They collect oil and yes, the engine can get low on oil.
Unless you use the magical Killer B valve you will see oil coming out of the engine under racing conditions where lateral G's are experienced. You need to let it drain back into the engine (and not back into the intake manifold).
*Let's say, for example, the stock system of 2004+ WRX's and Sti's; EJ255's and up. They are not capable of dealing with blowby and oil from the head breathers when boost is elevated and high G's are involved.

[Scargo]

I am skeptical. KB's oil control valve (http://www.killerbmotorsport.net/oiling-products/oil-control-valves.html) helps keep oil from escaping the heads under high g's. What do you have that keeps the oil pickup from cavitating under high G's? I doubt you are talking about working with a stock pan or stock pickup. There have been numerous designs by Rallye team engine designers and others. I doubt any are full-proof under sustained, high lateral G's. There are lots of solutions/options out there so what is new that you have to offer?
As to solutions for road racing engines, I am living testament to built engines living through many seconds of G's in the 1.0 to 1.3 range with spikes of 1.5 without issue. I am using standard KB pieces and a two quart Accusump. I run 8+ quarts of oil. I am at 470 WHP and turning 7K RPMs. I data log in the sense that I video my gauges and I have had several engines survive the rigors of road racing without a failure.
There is a huge chasm between trying to push a stock engine in a track capable 818 and a purpose-built engine designed for road racing, where the oiling system has been carefully tended to.
Voodoo in the pan is not needed. IMHO, if you get to sustained 1.5 G's you should go to DS and not be trying bandaids.
I could be wrong. There will always be the 818 owner who will run a basically stock engine on the track. Perhaps your solution will help those engines survive.

[EODTech87]

OK, this age-old Subaru lubrication problem has been longing for a solution and it has inspired me to really put my thinking cap on. I can't give too much away just yet, at least until my patent-attorney meeting in 2 weeks, but I am pretty confident I can at least substantially ease the burden of this system by keeping the oil from back-flowing into the heads and keeping the pickup covered out to between 1.2 - 1.5 lateral g's. In stock and aftermarket pans, oil starts to leave the pan at 0.75 g's and can un-port the pickup at 1 g.

Stay tuned!

I thought the problem was that the oil was being pumped into the heads through the normal oiling system and staying there under sustained G's?

[Sgt.Gator]

I thought the problem was that the oil was being pumped into the heads through the normal oiling system and staying there under sustained G's?

^ Exactly This.

[lance corsi]

Oh, I almost forgot...it will be compatible with all WRX and STI oil pans, stock pickups as well as KillerB pickups, oil pans and maybe Moroso pickups with a little grinder work.
Bully for you & your ideas. Don't pay any attention to the naysayers, they have no vision. All they can do is throw darts.
First, however, you may want to level the engine to give yourself a fighting chance. I raised the front of my motor 1.25" to achieve proper attitude.
Btw, if you plan to patent your device, it'll be a long costly venture. I hope you are successful.

[lance corsi]

I thought the problem was that the oil was being pumped into the heads through the normal oiling system and staying there under sustained G's?

Not really. Where's the proof?

[Blwalker105]

I thought the problem was that the oil was being pumped into the heads through the normal oiling system and staying there under sustained G's?

Only partly, and considering the inherent design limitations of the boxer engine, Subaru got it mostly covered for the 98th percentile of their intended market. And I couldn’t agree more that anyone pulling sustained 1.2 - 1.5 lateral g’s needs a dry sump system. I’m aiming at the people looking for some extra protection in the .9 - 1.2 range.

Our engines with 5 qts of oil run with about 3 qts in the sump and 2 qts circulating (and yes, I can quote a MIT study). After about 6 seconds at 1g, as much as 1 qt leaves the oil pan and goes back up the lower crankcase area and into the cylinder head. This adds immense pressure on the stock oil drainback design. Couple this with say, a high g right-hander quickly followed by a high g left and it can become painfully easy to unport the oil pickup, stock or otherwise. Heavy braking also sees oil leaving the pan, which when followed by a sustained high g turn can have nasty consequences. Overfilling the oil level does get you some added insurance at the sump in return for adding even more oil mass for overwhelming the heads.

Magical valves aside, if one can keep the oil in the sump, I believe most of one’s problems will be solved.

[Mitch Wright]

So far the magic valve along with the other components are working for me.

[Scargo]

I do not wish to pop anyone's bubble. Also, I have been doing things "outside the box" on my STi race car and I've yet to have an engine failure or oil related issues.
Yes some is pumped out by the camshaft oiling and stays behind during G's, but the other side is not having the oil staying in the head.
I mentioned rally engines. There is one or more baffle designs that completely surrounds the pickup and at the perimeter it is sealed. I think this is to stop slosh from the extremes of rallying more than anything else. One-way flaps are employed by Cosworth as I recall.
Builders and designers DO worry about oil leaving the pan as there are many windage-baffle designs to attest.
Overfilling may rob power and introduce air into the oil. I stick to 1/2 quart over and use the KB baffle.
I have one turn at New Jersey Motorsports park that is slightly banked and gives me sustained G's for ten seconds. I calculated that I would probably run out of pressure assistance from the two quart Accusump before I exited. As I said, my car has done sustained 1.2~1.3 G's depending on banking. I have not seen any pressure loss. That's also with my 8.5 quart system, that includes a big external filter block and a big oil cooler (on the wrong side of the car for that particular right-hander) to help out. Do I have a magical combination or Midas touch? Add in that I do extensive oil pump and gallery porting.

[Blwalker105]

I do not wish to pop anyone's bubble. Also, I have been doing things "outside the box" on my STi race car and I've yet to have an engine failure or oil related issues.
Yes some is pumped out by the camshaft oiling and stays behind during G's, but the other side is not having the oil staying in the head.
I mentioned rally engines. There is one or more baffle designs that completely surrounds the pickup and at the perimeter it is sealed. I think this is to stop slosh from the extremes of rallying more than anything else. One-way flaps are employed by Cosworth as I recall.
Builders and designers DO worry about oil leaving the pan as there are many windage-baffle designs to attest.
Overfilling may rob power and introduce air into the oil. I stick to 1/2 quart over and use the KB baffle.
I have one turn at New Jersey Motorsports park that is slightly banked and gives me sustained G's for ten seconds. I calculated that I would probably run out of pressure assistance from the two quart Accusump before I exited. As I said, my car has done sustained 1.2~1.3 G's depending on banking. I have not seen any pressure loss. That's also with my 8.5 quart system, that includes a big external filter block and a big oil cooler (on the wrong side of the car for that particular right-hander) to help out. Do I have a magical combination or Midas touch? Add in that I do extensive oil pump and gallery porting.

I, hopefully, will shortly be in need of someone to field-test my part with regard to high-g cornering & braking loads and I like your multi-faceted approach regarding going above and beyond design limitations. I’ll pm you as things progress.

[Scargo]

I, hopefully, will shortly be in need of someone to field-test my part with regard to high-g cornering & braking loads and I like your multi-faceted approach regarding going above and beyond design limitations. I’ll pm you as things progress.
I'd be glad to entertain a different concept if I can. I hope to get far along on my 818 this winter that I might be able to try something. The 818 would be the obvious candidate. I'd like to avoid the hit of a dry sump system, financially, complexity and weight-wise.
Perhaps someone else would be better positioned to do the testing? I do have a street toy '07 STi I'm building an engine for, as we speak. It would be problematic finding a place where I could exert high G's, outside of a few highway interchanges. Even then I would need an oil pressure gauge (which it will have) and datalogging capability or a GoPro to monitor it. I have all these capabilities but it may be more effort than I want to expend (unless it was going on the 818). I do plan on having full datalogging on it.
Perhaps somewhat relevant: With my current '08 track car I have two places I monitor oil pressure. One is straight out of the pump prior to the oil filter and the other at the rear of the right gallery prior to entering the right head (so it sees pressure at #5 main bearing/thrust bearing and #4 rod journal). I see at least a 10 PSI differential.
I've documented this before elsewhere but here is a link to my post in NASIOC (https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45026966&postcount=139) about the engine's oiling system and my approach to modifying it. All this has been proven out this season, along with my external oil pressure control valve mod, in my current engine with 20+ track hours on it.

[Blwalker105]

I’ll be upfront and admit that I do not have a functioning vehicle to test it out on at the moment. My design shares some basic similarities to an oil control device currently on the market, but I would feel horrible if I ruined someone’s engine. So, at 3am this morning, I awoke to a plan that my inner mechanical engineer must have been working on behind my conscious one’s back.

I happen to have my donor’s ej205 long block on a tiltable engine stand. My plan is to remove the spark plugs and attach a 3 hp electric motor to the crank pulley. I figure anything around 1500-1700 rpms will assure me of full oil pressure. I will then drill two holes, top and bottom of the oil pan, weld in bungs and cobble up a sight glass tube to see the actual oil levels during operation. I can then compare stock levels and pressures vs my device’s levels and pressures at different engine angles simulating anything out to 1.5 or so lateral g’s. Should be enlightening.

[Blwalker105]

Let me rephrase that: I am not a mechanical engineer by education, but I know there’s one hiding inside somewhere.

[AZPete]

Bill, you could have McGyver hiding inside!
I don't fully understand what you "R" guys are talking about, but I look forward to pictures and results of your idea.

[Blwalker105]

Lol!! Thanks Pete. More than a few of my friends call me McWalker!

[turbomacncheese]

Factory Five: Bringing out the MacGyver in all of us.

[kaj750]

Any updates? Not be be impatient, but my picking up an 818c this weekend (trading my current track beast) fully depends on my being able to insure no oil starvation during HPDE LOL

[Scargo]

Pretty close to being on two wheels in steady cornering. Rear wheel is off and front is barely touching. I have recorded 1.5 G's, though, like in autocross, it is not very sustained. Sustained is at 1.3. My STi weighs 2,800 pounds.

Just saying that I have run my car for years with Killer B pan, pickup tube, baffle and an Accusump without a single bearing failure.
That's at Watkins Glen, Lime Rock Park, Palmer Motorsports Park (pictured), New Jersey Motorsports Park, New Hampshire Motor Speedway, Club Motorsports and Thompson Speedway.
77480

[Blwalker105]

Any updates? Not be be impatient, but my picking up an 818c this weekend (trading my current track beast) fully depends on my being able to insure no oil starvation during HPDE LOL

Won’t be ready quite that fast, but as Scargo has replied, there are some great products out there to address your fears. I certainly wouldn’t let that be a deal-breaker.

[kb58]

I added some Accusump comments in a related thread - http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?15502-Oil-issues-Dry-Sump-Accusump-for-road-racing/page19

[Blwalker105]

OK everyone, after three iterations and 2 months of bench testing, I have a working prototype of my oil control plate. I now need someone with a track-ready car, preferably with a catch can system, to team up with for some real world testing. I will post some videos tomorrow showing my results.

[Mitch Wright]

Looking forward to seeing what you have come up with. So far I have been successful with my wet sump track only R.
Running KB pan, pickup and windage try, oil control valve and Crawford AOS. I have yet to see pressure loss on any of my data.
I have made a slosh plate to sandwich between the block and pan but haven’t seen the need to try it.

[NevaLift2Shift]

Looking forward to seeing what you have come up with. So far I have been successful with my wet sump track only R.
Running KB pan, pickup and windage try, oil control valve and Crawford AOS. I have yet to see pressure loss on any of my data.
I have made a slosh plate to sandwich between the block and pan but haven’t seen the need to try it.


Mitch,

Just curious how much track time you have on your setup? What kind of lateral G's are you hitting?

[Mitch Wright]

1.5-1.7G in the 3 long sweeps T5, T15-16. 1.3-5G in 1B, T3, T7, T12, T17 and T23 for shorter durations. I will have to check but I am guessing close to 200-250 laps between our 2 mile track and the 3.2.

[Blwalker105]

Here are some of the highlights of my quest to keep the engine oil in our oil pans and out of the cylinder heads.

Firstly, there is a direct and easy correlation between g-loading in the horizontal plane and a liquid's angle relative to that horizontal plane. There exists a mathematical equation but the easy way is to use the tangent and inverse tangent (arctangent) buttons on any scientific calculator. If you want to know what the angle of the oil in your pan is when you're pulling g's, insert that g number then press the arctangent button (tangent to the minus 1 power, usually found on the second level of most scientific calculators). For example, if you're pulling 1 g, the oil level in your pan will be at a 45 degree angle to the horizontal. Makes sense, since you have 1 g pulling downward from gravity and 1 g pulling the oil sideways from cornering loads. If you're pulling 1.25 g's, then the angle would be around 51 degrees and so on. 2 lateral g's would be about 63 degrees. If you want to know what simulated g a given liquid angle would represent, just enter the angle and press tangent.

The problem we face is that the oil in our pans starts to leave as early as 34 degrees or about 0.67 g's. That oil has to go somewhere and that somewhere is back up into the cylinder head drain ports and on into the cylinder heads. At around 1.1 - 1.3 g's, a sustained 5 second turn can completely fill up the cylinder head, thus putting enormous pressure on the pcv system and allowing the possibility of it sucking liquid oil back into the intake system. Very bad, indeed. This is why catch cans and AOS's fill up so quickly on hard-driven track cars. To make matters worse, oil that is slammed into the cylinder head is not available for circulation through the oil pickup tube which can lead to un-porting of the oil pickup, which can quickly lead to engine failure. My neighbor and I set out to find a way around this design limitation and here are some of the results.

Firstly, I made some intuitive assumptions concerning the oil level in a running vehicle. A doctoral study on baffle design in a 3.0 liter Ford found that in a 5 quart system, about 2.7 - 3 quarts were in the pan at any given time. My 2 hp test rig spun the engine around 1100 -1200 rpms where I saw 1 quart circulating around the engine. Since this would have been higher with increased rpms and a complete turbo system hooked up, I made the assumption that there were about 2 quarts circulating and 3 quarts in the pan in a typical scenario. All my test rig results with Subaru pans were with an initial 4 quarts to get the required 3 quarts once the engine was running. The KillerB oil pan had 5 quarts to get it to 4 when running. The static tests were done with 3 and 4 quarts respectively. On the following videos the dip tube hash marks are quarts. I will apologize for the sophomoric video quality, but I kept them unedited and uncut, as the soundtrack will attest. The results were all I was after.

The static oil pan tests show back-to-back results of oil remaining in the pan after 1 g without our oil control plate and then 1.25 g with the plate.


On the two videos showing there are no drain back problems, you will see in one the clear tube marked with two white twist ties and in the other the two whites plus two yellow twist ties. The upper tie of each color is the 4 quart level and the lower is the 3 quart level. The older style oil pan has the white ties while the newer style pan has the yellows. Notice how much lower the older pan carries it's oil. The newer style pan might be better for header fitment, but it keeps more of it's oil flowing back and forth from head to head during hard cornering. The older oil pan was the star of our testing. The videos show the simulated results of 4 successive, opposite direction 1 g turns at around 6 seconds duration each. Afterward, the oil level immediately returns to the normal running level. Honestly, at 1 g, there is no drain back issue because the oil has never left the pan.

The last video shows the running test stand and the angle limit when oil pressure started to fluctuate then falter. 64 degrees is around 2 g's. It happily chugged along for minutes at a time at 1.4 - 1.6 g's.

enjoy.

https://youtu.be/61EQv6YzmQ8?t=3

https://youtu.be/-2WhUOO4ajc?t=7

https://youtu.be/hgpAIOaFn1M?t=7

https://youtu.be/ZzLAolQ9-mA?t=2

https://youtu.be/ziis3-W5hQI?t=2

https://youtu.be/JXEon655oEk?t=2

https://youtu.be/0IlscMDwGR4?t=3

https://youtu.be/-oUK8ZkfeZE?t=2

https://youtu.be/EX45z5RWcaM?t=3

https://youtu.be/FYxYF8D2MBA

[lance corsi]

This is awesome work. I like your test rig.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bill
Great work.
Is there a way to that you can test at higher RPM.
At 1200 RPM the 11mm pump is about 1 quart every 5 seconds.
At 6000 RPM the 11mm pump is about 1 quart every 1 seconds.

Will your baffle block oil making it back to the pan at 50 Degree and 1 quart per second flow?
Bob

[NevaLift2Shift]

1.5-1.7G in the 3 long sweeps T5, T15-16. 1.3-5G in 1B, T3, T7, T12, T17 and T23 for shorter durations. I will have to check but I am guessing close to 200-250 laps between our 2 mile track and the 3.2.

Good to know, I would think that would be enough to see some kind of bearing failure, if it was going to happen. It seems like all the failures I've seen on the EJ series come over extended periods of time, it's not an immediate thing. Definitely going to keep an eye on this thread, even though I have a dry sump. Thanks for sharing, Mitch.

[Blwalker105]

Bill
Great work.
Is there a way to that you can test at higher RPM.
At 1200 RPM the 11mm pump is about 1 quart every 5 seconds.
At 6000 RPM the 11mm pump is about 1 quart every 1 seconds.

Will your baffle block oil making it back to the pan at 50 Degree and 1 quart per second flow?
Bob

Good question Bob, and I'm about 95% sure it won't block anything. I made a 1/8" dam around both the inner and outer perimeters of the pan then filled it with oil to simulate how much might cold oil might collect there as it is in transit downward. I weighed the plate before and after adding the oil and the most the plate can block is about 3-4 ounces. If I remember correctly, the lower crank case area and drain back ports are substantially above the level of the main plate so the oil will have to follow the path of least resistance, which is downward into the pan.

I'm almost sure, but there's no way I can conceive that the engine can absorb 1 qt per second through normal bearing clearances. I think most of that oil is being bypassed back into the pan via that big pipe in one of the rear corners. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

That very test will be among the first things I look at when it is in a running vehicle.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I'm almost sure, but there's no way I can conceive that the engine can absorb 1 qt per second through normal bearing clearances. I think most of that oil is being bypassed back into the pan via that big pipe in one of the rear corners. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

That very test will be among the first things I look at when it is in a running vehicle.

On OEM Subaru oil pumps. If oil pressure goes above 85 PSI, it gets bypassed from the outlet side of the pump back to the inlet side of the pump.

In the video below, Bill Daily is demonstrating his Spintric air/oil separator. About 80% through the video you can see how much oil is going through the engine at high revs.

Bob




https://youtu.be/noO16P5vSwQ

[Blwalker105]

On OEM Subaru oil pumps. If oil pressure goes above 85 PSI, it gets bypassed from the outlet side of the pump back to the inlet side of the pump.

In the video below, Bill Daily is demonstrating his Spintric air/oil separator. About 80% through the video you can see how much oil is going through the engine at high revs.

Bob




https://youtu.be/noO16P5vSwQ

Whoa, that Spintric makes a pretty amazing difference.

Bob, you were spot-on with your flow rates and I was a bit low. Here is the study I found and there is some pretty good information on pages 22-24. Their measured flow rate of 40 liters per minute is probably pretty close to our stock pump.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0270/899b3d94e43389f53d451e4fb00cfe32e5c4.pdf

I can get a quart of water per second through there, and I can get a quart per second of my 65 degree test mixture, which was 2 quarts of 0w-30 and 2 quarts of diesel fuel...but it was very close. I still feel good about the design, but I think I'm going to longitudinally elongate the drain area and add 5 or 10 degrees more angle to the lower baffle. Good eye and many thanks for the information.

[DanielsDM]

Nice work Blwalker!

BTW the video posted is not showing the Spintric. Spintric is an ARE product and is a passive separator. Daily uses a shaft driven separator that is build into the pump.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Nice work Blwalker!

BTW the video posted is not showing the Spintric. Spintric is an ARE product and is a passive separator. Daily uses a shaft driven separator that is build into the pump.

Hi Dan, My mistake on the ARE Spintric.
Thanks Bob

[Blwalker105]

OK, good news! For testing purposes and this video, I increased the downward angle of the lower baffle plate, but left the size of the rectangular main drain back hole the same. The production plate's main drain back hole will be larger by about 6%.

In the video, the 4 quarts of 5w-30 were in the freezer for about a half hour and were at 28 degrees F when I removed them. I then fiddled with fine-tuning things in my 70 degree shop for about 5 minutes. Although the digital thermometer shows between 35-37 degrees, the bulk of the oil below the surface was probably closer to 30 degrees F.

There was absolutely no problem getting that 4 quarts back into the sump within 2.5 - 2.7 seconds, which is well within the normal high-rpm pumping rate of about 1qt per second.

I now have a functioning Subaru test vehicle and will begin real-world testing by this coming Tuesday. Track testing will hopefully be following closely.

https://youtu.be/XE8jSNRsYfQ

[DanielsDM]

Again, great work!

[Blwalker105]

OK, The ArcTangent Design Oil Control Plate is finally ready!! After a seeming lifetime of 8 months of testing and design changes, I'll be joining vendor status early next week and my website should be up soon after that. In the meantime, anyone interested in purchasing one can PM me. As you can see, it works with the stock oil pickup and both early & late Killer B pickups. It also works with both early style oil pans and newer pans, and the Killer B high capacity oil pan. Here are some pics.

https://i.imgur.com/RcVy6fH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/RcVy6fH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vhHAILd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BL823PK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GgkbDv3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JHt2DTU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bOC0bmc.jpg

Many thanks to Mechie3 for his insights and never saying no to coming over on his lunch hour, firing up Solidworks and showing what a true master he is!

At this time, all fabrication duties are being done by my neighbor and me. If volume forces us to farm out the fab services, prices will have to climb a bit. I'm still confident we'll be comfortably below the competition's $450 price point. At this time I have 48 units I can offer at $295 each.

[Sgt.Gator]

Your new test rig?

2009 Porsche 911 | Engine Oil Sump Test Rig | Edmunds.com


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv53RbvgfGc

[biknman]

So moving from wet sump #moroso to dry dump again #aviaiddrysump question for yawl dry sump top mount or bottom mount for the pump. This would be a 3 stage pump thru bolt mounts, no bypass, 1.25" sections, approx 7" long?
https://instagram.com/p/BlgVmT_FdI7hjcWW0rKHKMkxkdB9MimXb4U4eA0/
89201

89198

89199
Top hoses would be longer but could have every thing below inside frame rails and allow for fab ing up a header with some shorter runners

89200
Bottom hoses would be really short but would have to deal with header and would hang as low as wet sump pan

Was cosidering a 4 or 5 stage but didn't want to deal with the complexity of pluming heads and all the extra hoses and if I ever have to replace the heads having another set on hand all fitted up for scavenging #818r #factoryfive818

[Sgt.Gator]

Do you have a build thread? I searhed but didn't see one......the answer is it of course "depends". I do't see a turbo in the pic, oem location with oem located intake inlet or rotated?

[biknman]

No build thread sorry. Turbo could go any where, intake manny could go either way also, both locations will be opptimized as much as possible for things like weight distro, cooling, etc

[Rob T]

On my (Chad's) R, the pump is on top like the first picture. The aluminum panel on the bottom of my R just touches the bottom of the oil filter and the headers and still leaves little ground clearance. On my car, I don't how the pump would fit underneath...

[biknman]

On my (Chad's) R, the pump is on top like the first picture. The aluminum panel on the bottom of my R just touches the bottom of the oil filter and the headers and still leaves little ground clearance. On my car, I don't how the pump would fit underneath...

Thank you that’s what I was thinking the Moroso alum pan with cooling fins hung done about 1/2” below the chassis tubing

[Mitch Wright]

My KillerBee pan is about 1/2 below the frame rail as is my JDM Header.

[biknman]

Just thought I’d post this real quick my dry sump kit in the works which will be ver 3 for me on a EJ engine. I went all Aviaid pretty much. FYI a BRZ crank bolt with a BBC 1” crank Drive mandrel allowed me to run a standard 1” ID drive pulleys :-)

91014

91015

91016

[Zach34]

Looking good!

How are you handling the coolant manifold on top of the engine? On mine, the upper radiator hose connection comes out where you mounted your DS pumps.

Where did you get the AN threaded thermostat housing?

I like how you got rid of all the huge brackets for the alternator and A/C compressor. Is that a custom setup for your alternator mount, or is it an aftermarket kit from somewhere?

[biknman]

Coolant manifold is done With -16an fittings I had @duran_industries make me ref: https://instagram.com/p/BhApsdRnnF_APGud0qPuH53nswb7jeoHbAAiF00/
91058

Water pump outlet -20AN and AN breather fittings from Tig Werks www.tigwerks.com Outfront Motorsports sale them ref: https://instagram.com/p/BebQ8MVjHLquR71_v3XDy8RFGG_97ai3VIs42Q0/
91059

Alternator brackets Outfront Motorsports https://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/accessories/
91060

Or eBay https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F25 3794458499

And if any body ask the -8an fitting off water pump is to help with cooling on cylinder 4 ref: 91061
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bla6QquD9ja/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1ukc7cxjp0592

[biknman]

Reply to Rob T about mounting pump on the bottom of the engine

With a thru bolt mounting plate and thru bolt pump flanges (Aviaid p/n 76). The plate could be mounted on stand offs on the oil pan studs / bolts and some available thread holes in the block not needed. Allowing it hovering (or hanging rather) over the pan allowing you to mount the pump to the bottom the block.
Ref: http://aviaid.com/pdfs/077_universal_adjustable_mount_pumps.pdf
91086

[Zach34]

Coolant manifold is done With -16an fittings I had @duran_industries make me ref: https://instagram.com/p/BhApsdRnnF_APGud0qPuH53nswb7jeoHbAAiF00/
91058

That is awesome. I have a strong urge to copy that. I fabricated my own coolant manifold to adapt to a -20 fitting out of sheet aluinum, but it mimics the shape of the OEM one and your setup is much much cleaner.




And if any body ask the -8an fitting off water pump is to help with cooling on cylinder 4 ref: 91061
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bla6QquD9ja/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=1ukc7cxjp0592

Interesting. I've never heard of this issue. Does it just go tie into the heater lines or something? Is your -8 adapter welded to the pump?

[biknman]

That is awesome. I have a strong urge to copy that. I fabricated my own coolant manifold to adapt to a -20 fitting out of sheet aluinum, but it mimics the shape of the OEM one and your setup is much much cleaner

Interesting. I've never heard of this issue. Does it just go tie into the heater lines or something? Is your -8 adapter welded to the pump?

FYI SBC -16an remote water pump fittings almost fit prefect off by a millimeter.

Yes I Y the 2 -16an fittings pictured on the coolant block outlet ports into a -20an then run the coolant thru a swirl pot with -20s (pictured). With the -20 hose instead of a hard pipe I have a lot more flexibility to package other stuff and I think starting the cooling process sooner also preventing some heat soak or at least I hope. The Swirl pot is at the highest point in the cooling system helps to burb air continuesly. After many, many years chasing EJ coolant issues in a dedicated motor sports application trying to rid the system of air, and effecintly and effectively cool the engine thats allows me to increase aero (i.e. Smaller air feeds to rad) this is the only solution for me that I’ve found which works succesful and is reliable. Also I use a recirculating rad cap on the swirl pot connected to a sealed expansion/ overflow tank so system can expand and contract coolant as needed.


Yes if you have stock set up it splices into the heater circuit. How I run it on my "street" coupe 22b Scooby (no egr pipe). I cut the hose off the fitting and welded on a AN fitting for the cylinder head and welded on a AN fitting onto one of the water pump feeds that was meant for the heater core or oil/ coolant heat exchanger. Beacuase racecar and no heater core nor coolant though throttle body nor oil / coolant heat exchanger. For major EJ issues leading to engine failure in my experiences 1. oiling failing to be supplied properly to the pump in high Gs 2. head gaskets 3. cylinder 4 getting really hot as compared to other cylinders. The coolant can “ Edie” for lake of better words in the head. Also where air bubbles like to hide.the knock sensor sets right over #4 it so kinda throws things off. #3 has the same port on the head to feed coolant thru the turbo so no “ Edie” issue.


Hope this helps yawl!
:cool:

[longislandwrx]

looking awesome, just followed you and Duran on insta... did you sell that moroso pan and pickup yet? my DD's is getting a little porous

ps those msi mounts are top notch

[biknman]

looking awesome, just followed you and Duran on insta... did you sell that moroso pan and pickup yet? my DD's is getting a little porous

So I'm going to put the Aluminum Moroso pan on my Scooby Coupe 22b. But I do have a new Moroso steel pan with new aluminum pickup and Coswoth wind age tray I'd be willing to sale. I also have set of new used Subaru OEM 4pot front and 2 pot rear brakes with rotors / pads and SS lines I need to sale that I was going to use on the build.

Speaking of selling stuff I wonder what all the R chassis folks are doing with all the S Chassis stuff FFR gives you? I have tons of stuff I'll never use; lights, aluminum panels, the FFR special wheels set, axles, shifter and cables, etc etc.

[longislandwrx]

PM me about the pan and brakes... might be interested in both.

regarding the extra parts, i didn't end up with many, i'm using the lights, most of the aluminum i didn't use i ended up cannibalizing to make little pieces. I didn't get wheels, I took a credit for declining the Kirkey, I modified my shifter with a short throw.

post up whatever you don't end up using on the the for sale forum, someone with an S i'm sure will pick them up to have spares and you'll get some lunch money, or a good trade. The only thing no one seemed to want were the flex cooling tubes and gen one side pipes. I just left them out for the scrap guys.

[biknman]

Another quick post on my Dry sump using Aviaid stuff which I hope helps y’all out.

Using the Aviaid universal mounting plate I got the 3 stage pump mounted on the block using the power steering pump mount’s threaded holes. Every lines up perfect :-)! Some trimming of the 1/2 mounting plate is all it took, which is time consuming depending on the tools you have. I used a HF ports-band-saw. Had to enlarging 2 of the 1/4” holes in the plate to 10mm and fab a small bracket for the front out of some angle and that’s all it took. The BRZ crank bolt is plenty long enough for me to fit a 20mm drive HTD pulley for the pump and a 10mm HTD Drive pulley for the alternator on a cut down BBC 1” Drive mandrel with a some spacers.

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Lastly for those of you interested I have about $2500 invested so far with Aviaid (pan w/fittings, 3stage pump w/fittings, pulleys, 2.5 gal tank w/fittings, mounting stuff) only need a couple HTD belts some AN hoses and a breather tank to finish.

FYI for now I’ll be feeding oil though Aviaid pan (OE pick up spot) thru gutting oil pump so using it’s pressure bypass then thru stock oil filter (exchanger deleted) into motor. Will later pump though remote filter w/pressure bypass then thru a air-to-air oil cooler into block at oil filter 22mm port.

Hope this helps yawl out. :-)

[Mitch Wright]

I have been running a wet sump since day one, the car is a track car and would guess I am at or close to the top of the list for track miles on a 818. Here are a couple of data logs from a track day last week. I ran 5 20 minute sessions the data from each session look pretty much identical.
A couple of months ago I installed one of Bill Walkers oil control plates, it works folks. Now prior to that oil pressure was consistent and had been more than happy with the results. I would see a slight traces of oil in the TMIC, since installing the plate the intercooler is dry.
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[Scargo]

...A couple of months ago I installed one of Bill Walkers oil control plates, it works folks. Now prior to that oil pressure was consistent and had been more than happy with the results. I would see a slight traces of oil in the TMIC, since installing the plate the intercooler is dry.
Did you ever run a Killer B baffle plate or Cosworth baffle plate prior to that?

[Mitch Wright]

Yes I had the KB windage tray. I did make a baffle that I copied from a race team in Europe which is a much simpler concept to Bills design that they have been running successfully but hadn't installed it, 94155 Bill has taken the design a number of steps further.
As a side note I was going through data last night and noticed the oil temp is lower post baffle install by an average of 7*. I was comparing runs made this spring with ambient temps between 58* and 70* to the July/August temps running with the plate ranging from 85-95*.

[drzmat]

Hi, i would like to revive this thread and see how those wet sump engines are holding up on track? I plan on ordering a 818S or 818C kit in 2020 to replace my street/track BMW E46 M3 but, like most track enthusiast, i am worried about those subaru engines going kaboom on track conditions. With the prices of dry sump kits higher than a complete donor car, this option is a no go for me.

My car would see 50% street/track and we dont really have long banked turns on my local tracks around here.

Anyway, i just wanted to have some updates from you guys.

Thanks in advance!

[Scargo]

I don't have my R finished, but I track a 2008 STI that generates 1.3-1.5 G's regularly and one big banked turn on NJMP's Lightning track is particularly gruelling as you are under high G's for 10-12 seconds. I use a KillerB setup. That, and I have seven quarts of Royal Purple racing oil circulating, a huge oil cooler and two quarts in an Accusump. I have 50 track hours, and counting, on this engine.
I am upgrading to Bill Walkers baffle plate (http://arctangentdesign.com/), which is track proven on 818's, at my next opportunity.
I think TT and Time Attack Subarus have shown that you can build a reliable track engine and a few are wet sump!

Kabooms are usually centered around detonation caused by the tune, the fuel or more than likely, oil getting into the intake tract from blowby. Kabooms are virtually always rod bearing failures. You will have a perfect storm when you take an old, stock engine, up the boost and run it hard and hot, with oil diluting the octane and fuel diluting the oil's lubricity properties and poor oil pressure. An A/OS is a must as is not letting oil particles vent back to the intake! Stock Subaru engines make good torque down low and down low is where you have poor oil pressure.

As I preach relentlessly, the oiling system is crucial to a Subaru when they are beat on. It needs upgrading. No, it requires upgrading! The stock pump is inadequate for racing and it needs an oil cooler. Rod bearings 2 and 3 share the same feed from one crankshaft journal while one and four have a dedicated main journal feeding them. It's no wonder that you often see #2 rod poking through the case!

[drzmat]

Good infos there, i plan on using Bills plate too.

Im not new to subaru engines, ive got several subarus in the past including a 2006 wrx that was a blast to drive, however when i started tracking back in the days, ive saw and heard too much horror sories and decided to stay away from subarus, I switched to BMW and never looked back.

However, the 818 seems a fantastic car and a fun project to do so im taking as much infos as possible before pulling the trigger. Im still concerned a bit about those engines reliability...

Thanks for the feedback!

[Scargo]

I switched to BMW and never looked back.

I have a 440i X and had an M3 though I've never tracked a Bimmer. I used to race with SCCA when I was young. Now I play.

I'm in the woulda, coulda, shoulda place right now. I have three STI's and the 818R. I'm so invested in Subaru cars and parts that I feel trapped. On the bright side, I think I know what works and I like the non-stock tinkering and modding. I like showing up and keeping up with the big boys with their high-dollar toys.
Yes, the horror stories are true. Subaru engines can be a ticking time bomb if you miss any of several key elements.

[drzmat]

I have a 440i X and had an M3 though I've never tracked a Bimmer. I used to race with SCCA when I was young. Now I play.

I'm in the woulda, coulda, shoulda place right now. I have three STI's and the 818R. I'm so invested in Subaru cars and parts that I feel trapped. On the bright side, I think I know what works and I like the non-stock tinkering and modding. I like showing up and keeping up with the big boys with their high-dollar toys.
Yes, the horror stories are true. Subaru engines can be a ticking time bomb if you miss any of several key elements.

Ha i 100% understand and can relate to that.

Ive built an LS engine bmw e36 dedicated track car a couple of years ago and it was a monster on the track, i was playing with the big boys GT3's etc...

Ive sold it to built a LS swapped datsun 280z that i finally sold too...

Now i am back with a dual duty car wich is my E46 M3, however the value of those are going up so i dont want to mess with it too much and will probably sell it instead of modding it for the track....

Then i may start that 818 project....

Ill probably have some questions for you during my research on the subject ;)

Thanks again!

[biknman]

For those of you that may be doing a FA20 (might work on EJ too)here's what BMR with Monotune in BTCC found useful in a wet sump system due to rules with swiveling oil pick up tube:

From https://www.hpacademy.com/technical-...ump-tech-byte/
This is the situation Mountune faced when developing the Subaru FA20 engine for use in the British Touring Car Championship where the rules required retaining the factory wet sump.
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To give the best chance of being able to provide a high pressure supply of oil, a clever moving pickup is used. This swings inside the sump in response to the lateral and longitudinal g forces the car is being subjected to, meaning that it essentially follows the oil around the sump

[lance corsi]

See post #7. Already been done. But thanks for the vote of credibility.

[biknman]

See post #7. Already been done. But thanks for the vote of credibility.


Yes interesting https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?19228-First-818-COUPE-build&p=233227&viewfull=1#post233227. How did it work? And how far does it hang down?

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52548&d=1460131217
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52548&d=1460131217


https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52550&d=1460131219
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=52549&d=1460131218

[Scargo]

I don't believe we ever heard from Lance Corsi about how this swivel pickup design worked for him.

[lance corsi]

My pan measures 6.5” towards the front of the engine, 7” in the back, as measured from the mating surface. It should hold about 1 extra quart of oil compared to stock. I’m still working on the beast, so no report on functionality. Hopefully be finished within a year.
Btw, I raised my motor mounts 1.25” above factory location to help with oil drainback, thus raising my pan above the lower frame rails.

[altitude7200]

Reviving this old thread as I'm a new owner planning to race in NASA st1.

Did Bill's oil plate workout? Is anybody still racing these? Will I survive with a killer bee and maybe an accusump?

I'm a little worried considering no one seems to drive or talk about these anymore. My guess is the oil thing never really got figured out and they all exploded and everybody gave up?

Is Bill still around selling pans?