Real Life Broomstick Test

[Sgt.Gator]

I've never seen a tap like this result in a flip in a closed wheel car. Amazing.

Make sure you pass the broomstick test!

Just Posted up on You Tube:


http://youtu.be/u-Xvv4TXMc0

[myjones]

In slo mo you can see his front tire climb the back of the other cars tire just like an open wheel car would. Just a freak combo where the body work on both cars
wadded up and let the tires come together. ALWAYS a good idea to pass the broomstick test in any car with a cage.
DB

[NAZ]

Good thing it wasn't on fire as he was struggling with the window net and it appeared that the safety crew had to help extricate him. Nice easy rollover and the cage held up well. I've been in more violent ones and the cars didn't look this good and neither did I.

[Sgt.Gator]

Good thing it wasn't on fire as he was struggling with the window net and it appeared that the safety crew had to help extricate him. Nice easy rollover and the cage held up well. I've been in more violent ones and the cars didn't look this good and neither did I.

Yikes! Video?

[DanielsDM]

Yes, passing the broomstick test is a necessity for any car going on a track. On our cars the test needs to be done with the stick resting on the lower front hoop and the main hoop (obviously). We did quite a bit of work to get the seating position low enough for a 6' driver to pass.

[Hindsight]

Those cup cars have full cages... better than the 818R has. I really want to add a full cage to my 818. Costs about $1200-$1500 though. However, with a full cage, you won't have the issue of the side bar going right next to your head (which only presents a problem if you drive it without a helmet, like on the street).

[mikeinatlanta]

Good thing it wasn't on fire as he was struggling with the window net and it appeared that the safety crew had to help extricate him. Nice easy rollover and the cage held up well. I've been in more violent ones and the cars didn't look this good and neither did I.

Yep. That guy needs to do some practicing on getting out of the car.

[C.Plavan]

Good thing it wasn't on fire as he was struggling with the window net and it appeared that the safety crew had to help extricate him. Nice easy rollover and the cage held up well. I've been in more violent ones and the cars didn't look this good and neither did I.

Yep- The release bent on the net and he could not get it open.... scary.

[Sgt.Gator]

At Pacific Raceways is seems like we flip a car every race weekend, sometimes 2-3 cars. They either roll a 360 or end up on the roof. We talk about what to do when you end up on the roof and the general consensus is not to do anything unless you're on fire. It's best to wait for the emergency crew to help get you down. Hard to do if you panic and are hanging upside down! We've had worse injuries from drivers popping their seatbelt release and falling on their heads hurting their necks than any injuries from the roll over itself.

Question, I've never worn arm restraints, can you get your hands high enough over your head to let yourself down safely if you're hanging upside down when wearing arm restraints? Don't you have to release the main seat belt buckle to release the arm restraints? Actually thinking about it in most any open top car like an 818R your head is going to be almost on the ground (and hopefully not dug a burrow in the ground), so dropping out of the harness is not as big a deal as dropping 5" out of a sedan.

[Sgt.Gator]

Another real life test. I wish the 818 in general, and the R in particular, came with a taller roll bar from the factory.

68121681226812368124

[flynntuna]

It's amazing that at the speed he hit the wall that he only broke his hip and pelvis.

[erlihemi]

Ditto for the 33. I've been upside down in a Jeep on an incline and it is very disorienting. It gets hard to breathe depending on harness type and also the latch releases can be bound up or you just forget which way was open. I also was hanging from a 3 inch lap belt with a D6 on its nose once. I had nothing I could reach (no steering wheel on a dozer) that wouldn't make it worse (hydraulics) and the pressure on the latch took both hands to get loose so I could hurt myself hitting the cage. Can't imagine doing that at 231mph in an open wheel car!!

[Mitch Wright]

I will have to check next time I am in my car, I am thinking that I might be able to get my hands to maybe to my eye level.

[DanielsDM]

I saw this pic on Facebook. Don't know who it is but I don't think he passes the broomstick test. The R needs a taller main hoop or a lower seating position. I tilted the seat back to 20 degrees and sacrificed some leg room.

[phil1734]

68151

Meh. Close enough right?

I'd love to meet the track "official" that let someone run like that.

It's by far my biggest pet peeve of the FFR community that fun too often seems to trump safety. I remember when that picture was first posted on here it was high fives and hand shakes all around to congratulate him on hitting the track the first time. Not a single "hey - that's kinda dangerous" or "you probably shouldn't do that again." I suppose I'm guilty myself on this one, I just hate always having to be the negative nancy in the room.

[Wayne Presley]

I'm well below in the 818R. I'm 5'10" with a 31" inseam.

http://www.factoryfive.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/ffr-818r.jpg

[Mitch Wright]

68160
When building my car I made sure I easily made the broom stick test. Now I am a massive 5'8.

[DanielsDM]

68160
When building my car I made sure I easily made the broom stick test. Now I am a massive 5'8.

That's about where I am in mine. When I look to the left I'm looking under the diagonal bar, also 5'8. I haven't poured my seat insert yet, but I may have to add foam to the bottom so I can see over the dash. Our 6' driver still clears the broomstick (placed on the main hoop and the front hoop, not the hood or windscreen) with more than 2" to spare.

[RetroRacing]

We had to fix at the track by mounting the seat off the rails, then took it back to the shop and removed the horizontal bar at the seat base and made special side seat mounts to put the base of the seat right on the alum floor. My a$$ is now 2.5" off the road....life is good.

[Sgt.Gator]

We had to fix at the track by mounting the seat off the rails, then took it back to the shop and removed the horizontal bar at the seat base and made special side seat mounts to put the base of the seat right on the alum floor. My a$$ is now 2.5" off the road....life is good.

You mean I can fit now?!?!?

Let's go racing!
:cool:

[RetroRacing]

YES!!!
Picking up the block on the way back from Portland next weekend, then its scramble to put it all back together for Spokane.

[Mulry]

Wayne, could you please share how you mounted your seat to get it so low? We're having a real problem with this. Thanks.

[RetroRacing]

68245

Our HALO seat is actually below the angle side bar, can't go any lower as the bottom of the seat touches the under floor aluminum, but, you have to cut and weld to make it happen.

[Mitch Wright]

682466824768248

This is how I mounted mine, might find helpful. I welded the nuts on the bottom of the seat mount frame mount to make it easy take the seat mounts on and off.

[DanielsDM]

Wayne, could you please share how you mounted your seat to get it so low? We're having a real problem with this. Thanks.

We removed the X's below the seats and replaced with plate that is flush to the bottom of the frame and fabbed new mounts. Allows the seat to drop almost an inch.
See our thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?22263-DanielsDM-818R

[Sgt.Gator]

I brought my new to me 818R home (Brando's Build) and did the broomstick test with a fellow 818R builder who lurks here, whom I shall refer to as Mr. Smith. It failed miserably! If I were to keep the same seat (Kirkey with Kirkey foam liner) at the same mounting point I would have to raise the rear hoop by 4", or raise the front hoop by 3" and the rear by 2.5" . And even Mr.Smith failed the test, and he's about 5"7. I'm 6'3".

Thanks to everyone who've posted solutions here, I'm going over them in detail now because this is nowhere near safe. I don't know how Brando got this car on track anywhere unless the tech inspectors were asleep at the wheel. He and I are the same height.

Retro I hope to get a close look at how you did yours next weekend at the Enduro.

[RetroRacing]

Let's sit you in the car to see. If you don't fit in ours, I think we are in bar raising mode, cause we are on the floor!

I'll send you a PM, need to know if you guys need a room for the enduro, as we pick that up, and give you a tentative schedule for Friday pit practice, Saturday race.

[C.Plavan]

Floor mount Racetech seat with their super low cushion they sell. I had about 2 inch clearance. Still did not feel safe- Especially with that dumb 2" open square bar that will collapse....

[AC Bill]

Off topic, but I wondered what class the 818's usually run in.

I see the white one shows EM, which I assume is Economy Modified? Are they all run in that class?

[Mitch Wright]

NASA ST2 or 3 and a NA car might make ST4.
Gator I don't believe you will get there if you have the tank behind the seat. Like Chad I installed a fuel cell in the passengers seat area. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?15436-My-818R-Project-has-arrived&p=220522&viewfull=1#post220522
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?15436-My-818R-Project-has-arrived&p=189768&viewfull=1#post189768

Kirkey Seat photos http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?15436-My-818R-Project-has-arrived&p=192994&viewfull=1#post192994
With me in the car, I am only 5'8" so you have 7 inches on me http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?15436-My-818R-Project-has-arrived&p=257011&viewfull=1#post257011

[phil1734]

EM is E-Modified, which is the SCCA Solo class the 818 runs in. (Though technically, if you have any aero you should be A-mod.)

I have the kirkeys mounted directly to the floor x-brace. Same as Bob 'n Cincy I believe. I'm 5'11" and my helmet clears the stock bar on the S/C, but not by much.
74641

As others have said, everyone's torso is different, so it's possible that two people the same height may not both fit.

Strangely enough, according to the SCCA solo rule book you only need to pass the broomstick test if you have a racing harness. A standard 3-point OEM seatbelt allows so much movement it's assumed you'll flop into the car enough to save your neck (literally.) This doesn't mean it's a good idea, applicable to full on track days, or other sanctioning bodies.

[Sgt.Gator]

Let's sit you in the car to see. If you don't fit in ours, I think we are in bar raising mode, cause we are on the floor!

I'll send you a PM, need to know if you guys need a room for the enduro, as we pick that up, and give you a tentative schedule for Friday pit practice, Saturday race.

In Corvettes they cut the floor and drop the rear portion bottom of the seat thru it! For real. Jeremiah has a camper on his pickup but I'm not sure he'll be bring it, at The Ridge he developed a major leak that soaked his bed. So probably yes on the room for Friday night.

[Hindsight]

Pretty sure Brando only ran in HPDE - with plans on doing a series but never ended up in one. HPDE days are pretty lax about broomstick test, depending on where you are.

Anyway, with an ultra thin seat with almost no cushion, mounted as low as possible, I didn't pass. I cut out my roll bar and welded in a taller one. Wasn't that big a deal. I had a local fab shop bend the main hoop to my specs and just used an Eastwood tubing notcher and a metal chop saw to fab the rest. Used a MIG welder to weld it in. You could take that opportunity to close up the ends of the square steel frame tube, while you are at it.

[phil1734]

I think most series require an un-interrupted tube for the main hoop. Simply hacking off the top and welding on an extension above the beltline would be a no-go.

[RetroRacing]

you have to install the nerf bar, one on top of the main hoop to pass. Our cross brace is cut out and the side mount seat countersinks into the side bars so that it touches the alum on the floor of the car. Our fuel cell is in the passenger seat, we still have some room to lean the seat back for a little more clearance, but don't need it. I think I am about 2" under the broom stick now, at 5'9" with 30" inseam.......yes, easier to go over than around.

[Sgt.Gator]

I think most series require an un-interrupted tube for the main hoop. Simply hacking off the top and welding on an extension above the beltline would be a no-go.

Except that we don't have an uninterrupted main hoop tube that goes from the belly pan frame all the way around to the other belly pan/frame. Our roll bar tube starts at the on the top of the frame at seated shoulder height, you can look inside the open square tube and see the hoop doesn't pass thru it. So there's no reason you can't cut it off there and weld on a taller hoop. This is about all the SCCA has to say on that subject of the Main Hoop: "If the hoop does not go to the belly pan, proper gussets and tube triangulation shall be used under its attachment." Kind of nebulous about what is "proper". We do have frame triangulation under it, I'm not sure the hoop tube passes the test for gussets though. I can see an inspector saying no, you need to get an SCCA Homolagation certificate for this car from SCCA HQ TECH. That's what they did to my Palatov D4 because the design was different from they've seen.

The fore/aft braces have to be cut off too and new longer ones made because the OEM ones will be too far down on the new hoop to pass the rules on that distance.
"Roll Cage Bracing
1. The main hoop must have 2 forward braces extending from the hoop and attached to the frame, monocoque, or front hoop. Braces must be attached as near as possible to the top of the hoop but must not be more than 6 inches below the top and at an included angle of at least 30 degrees."

The forward braces are at 6" now, so they have to be redone too.

As for the hoop resting on the open square tube - I don't know if that could pass a SCCA load calculation. I've become familiar with that because I'm applying for a SCCA Homologation on my Palatov D4 and it's a bear! "The roll bar must be capable of withstanding the following stress loading applied simultaneously to the top of the roll bar: 1.5 (X) laterally, 5.5 (X) longitudinally in both the fore and aft directions, and 7.5 (X) vertically, where (X) = the minimum weight of the car." That would be 15,000 vertical pounds pushing the roll bar into the square tube. Would it crush down? I don't know, I'd like to see a sample square tube frame and roll bar tested in an instrumented press. It probably wouldn't crush more than 1 1/4" until it hit the top of the chassis frame though.

[phil1734]

Well if you apply the 5.5(x) load simultaneously in both the fore and aft directions it cancels out! ;)

No matter what it sounds like a major PITA for a car that's designed specifically for track use. All because they didn't want to add in an extra ~20 inches of round tube for the 30 or so R chassis they've sold. Roll hoop height aside, I'm sure if it doesn't pass SCCA specs everyone would have much rather paid FFR the extra $250 or whatever the cost would be to fit that tube properly. And it'd be safer to boot.

[Sgt.Gator]

Agreed Phil. A big first start would be for FF to settle the open square tube issue once and for all by applying for a SCCA Homologation Certificate for the frame. https://www.scca.com/pages/homologation-form-downloads

It only costs $100. Once homologated an owner can use that certificate at every track in the country. Even NASA will accept the SCCA Homologation as proof the frame is safe. If the SCCA turns it down, FF can work with them to redesign the frame to pass. The bonus for FF is that they can use the homolgation as a marketing advantage that their frames are homologated! The downside I can see them having is that if it doesn't pass they may have to issue a repair order for all the R frames with instructions on how to fix the issue.

The only issue would then be if an owner mods the hoop to raise it higher, then that owner will have to re-apply for a new certificate. That is not a trivial application, you have to supply engineering drawings, and preferably FEA analysis. In my case with the Palatov, I had the Palatov factory make the mods to raise the roll bar height, then supply all the engineering documents to the SCCA for homolgation.

[Sgt.Gator]

I wasn't there, but yesterday at Oregon Raceway Park where I instruct:

https://leinkq.by.files.1drv.com/y4mpUBT4FdGlbi-6VwdEI7diOTnpxjiEZSZ2XkyI-Hbhu3aDdqQcnQxOdC-CXPCVviZkvUjiVZDy3UEKg7l1RGbPFITQgS_4EdxeXKBWxxww3 sZlGXUi6uPkZTQofhh-_bEJD2VAmqN_GK-RfyvX6M4GFMMq-wllRruzLUPxAxkoP9HroDBa-SGRkQKRtZVH6CZe5gY7abyfY0SJ9EZrcpBkw?width=1192&height=820&cropmode=none

The driver is Bill Murray, chief instructor, part owner of ORP, and racer for almost as many years as I have been alive! In his words from the Facebook post:

William D. Murray: "Clockwise turn 7, flat out still rotating as the track drops away , right rear off driver's right. Had time to think that "this could the rollover I've always talked about". Left the track leading with the right quarter, tripped in the dirt and went over one and a half revolutions. When the dust cleared the light was coming in through the passenger window, so that's the one I went out of. As many times as I have done this it has always been disorienting. I don't plan on practicing it enough to get good at it. I have given this lecture often enough at least I knew the steps."

Thank the Lord he's OK and there was no fire in that bone dry wheat field.

The full posting: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10212358873261635&set=a.10212358880701821.1073741827.1074052969&type=3&theater

[Sgt.Gator]

From Winding Road Racing:
"Some of the best drivers in the country run MX-5 Cup. As an indication, Mazda recently hosted a special MX-5 Cup Challenge event at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca, and many top MX-5 Cup series drivers showed up ($75k to win will do that) along with IMSA prototype, international GT and Indy Lights champions. The MX-5 Cup series drivers dominated."

Another example of the RLBT in MX5 Cup cars just posted, and this one is pretty scary! Thankfully Bryan Ortiz is ok.


http://youtu.be/kbOgm922iCc

[C.Plavan]

Spec Miata doing what Spec Miata does best

[Mitch Wright]

Close racing???

[C.Plavan]

Close racing???

Spec Piñata- there is close racing, and smash racing.

[Mitch Wright]

That has not been the case in the 4 MX5 cup races I have done in the last few years. Yes there is contact but that is the case with spec classes I have run going back to Renault Cup, Spec Racer, VW Cup even Formula Ford and S2000 in there hay day and yes the hand full of Spec Miata races I have done. Big fields (in many cases 1 second covered the top 20) makes for close racing, bump drafting and a lot of wheel to wheel action. So yes by the spec nature of these classes you will have more contact but with that drivers coming out of these spec classes know how to race. I consider these classes to be excellent training grounds, how can they not be, 30-60 car grids teach a driver to truly race on the edge from start to finish, strategy and racecraft. I can also say to drive/race any of the cars I mentioned at the pointy end of the field is difficult, much harder than the 650hp Trans Am cars I drove years ago. You may only be going 100mph but I will tell you those spec classes have been the most intense racing I have ever done and most satisfying when you have a good result. JMO
Chad have you ever raced one?

[Sgt.Gator]

This video highlights that at a track like Mazda Laguna Seca with gravel traps when you are rolling over, and when you end up on your top, the roll bar will be buried down at least a couple of inches in the gravel or possibly more, so you better have even more than the bare minimum of space for the RLBT. And on a single roll bar system like our 818 that's even worse.

[C.Plavan]

This video highlights that at a track like Mazda Laguna Seca with gravel traps when you are rolling over, and when you end up on your top, the roll bar will be buried down at least a couple of inches in the gravel or possibly more, so you better have even more than the bare minimum of space for the RLBT. And on a single roll bar system like our 818 that's even worse.

Yeah- Never really felt safe in the 818R in W2W racing- If I kept it, I would of made a real cage. The Corvettes and other cars I raced against were HUGE.

[RetroRacing]

Ya, a roll over would suck, but I'm used to the open concept having driven both my Datsun Roadster and a Caterham wheel to wheel. Crashing in an old RX7 at 150mpg would probably suck worse, all about perspective:)

[Sgt.Gator]

I've updated my build thread with my Halo Cage for Tall Boys solution: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?26054-Gator-s-818R&p=310926&viewfull=1#post310926

[Sgt.Gator]

Apparently, Apexlife doesn't have a broomstick test:

From: https://www.rcnmag.com/d-i-y/carbon-components?utm_source=streamsend&utm_medium=email&utm_content=newsletter&utm_campaign=180418

https://www.rcnmag.com/resources/images/_galleryFullSize/Carbon-Parts-B37.jpg

[Sgt.Gator]

NASA doesn't have a specific broomstick test in their rules (at least that I can find), but I just noticed this is now on their Race / TT Car Annual Inspector's Form:
Under Roll Cage checkboxes:

__ Broomstick test - open cars.

So now NASA matches the SCCA.

[Mulry]

NASA doesn't have a specific broomstick test in their rules (at least that I can find), but I just noticed this is now on their Race / TT Car Annual Inspector's Form:
Under Roll Cage checkboxes:

__ Broomstick test - open cars.

So now NASA matches the SCCA.

Thanks for noting that. We'll be adding a halo cage too, probably not as artistically as yours :)

Here's the link to the 2019 form for others in this situation:

https://www.nasaproracing.com/forms/annual_race_inspector_form.pdf

[Dave 53]

Trying to figure out what I need to do to my 818S to pass the broom stick test. I'm coming up with a 21" roll bar vs. the S stock 13" roll bar. What is the height of the R roll bar?149601

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Trying to figure out what I need to do to my 818S to pass the broom stick test. I'm coming up with a 21" roll bar vs. the S stock 13" roll bar. What is the height of the R roll bar?
My roll bar is 5" taller than 818S bar. It is higher than the 818r bar, but I don't know by how much. My son in this picture is 6'3" in a kirkey seat-mounted directly to the floor.
In the second picture, you can see an extra bump was added to the 818r. I believe so Dave Smith could drive it.

149611 149612

Sorry about the dirty car. This was the second day of a track day weekend.

[Sgt.Gator]

Trying to figure out what I need to do to my 818S to pass the broom stick test. I'm coming up with a 21" roll bar vs. the S stock 13" roll bar. What is the height of the R roll bar?149601

Tony posted this info in an old thread when were trying to figure out how to fit and pass the tests. This is from his 818R:
Floor to top of rear roll cage bar 818R=41".

If you need from the top of the rear firewall cross bar to the top of the bar I can get that for you later today.

[Sgt.Gator]

Probably a good time to update this old thread.
In looking at the latest NASA Annual HPDE /TIME TRIAL TECHNICAL INSPECTION FORM: https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/277/NASA_HPDE_tech_form.pdf
It doesn't say anything about a broomstick test, just roll bars in open cars check box. There is a reference to this page: https://community.drivenasa.com/topic/56278-can-i-take-my-convertible-vehicle-on-a-race-track-in-hpde-or-time-trial-groups/
If your vehicle is not on the list, provide FACTORY documentation stating that YOUR make and model has rollover protection. If it was an option (e.g. pop-up) roll bars, then you need to prove your car has these. Submit the documentation to your Regional Director or send it to help@drivenasa.suppport.
Submitting documentation other than from the manufacturer will be ignored. Acceptable documentation:
Factory-produced sales brochures and websites (a link may be sent).
Letters or emails from an employee of the factory. Must be on letterhead or use the manufacturer’s domain. The letter must state very specifically, that the vehicle does have rollover protection.

The 2021 NASA RACE / TT CAR ANNUAL INSPECTOR’S FORM: https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/268/Annual_Inspection_form_3.1.pdf
It no longer has a reference to open top cars and the broomstick test. Just the regular cage requirements. So looking at the actual rules for cage requirements: https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/document/document/282/2021.8.3.pdf
I find no mention of open top cars or height of the roll bar above the helmet.

ICSCC racing: The top of the main hoop shall not be more than six inches behind and not less than one inch above the top of the driver’s helmet when he/she is in a normal driving position. No mention of the broomstick test.

SCCA Track Nights (HPDE). I can't find their rules, they are probably track specific.
SCCA Racing 2021: https://www.scca.com/downloads/56589-gcr-june
The main hoop must be high enough that a straight line drawn from the top of the main hoop to the top of the front hoop would pass over the driver’s helmet and steering wheel when the driver is seated in the normal driving position. Additionally, the top of the main hoop must be at least 2 inches above the driver’s helmet as illustrated in figure 10.

And I posted this in another build thread recently:
Most tracks have a broomstick test for open top cars. Also depending on the organization hosting the event they may have their own broomstick test. Enforcement of the rule varies greatly. Be sure to check both the track and the organization's rules about convertible top cars. So asap have the tallest driver sit in the car with a helmet on and do the broomstick test. Compare the results to the requirements.
You don't want to go all the way to the track to be told to go home because you don't pass their requirements. Do a google search for HPDE Convertible Rules and you will find how different they can be!

Example, HPDE at NCCAR with the Tidewater Sports Car Club:
"All convertible/open top vehicles must be able to pass the broomstick test. The broomstick test involves laying a wooden dowel/broomstick/etc across the windshield frame and the roll bar with the driver seated in their normal position and wearing their helmet. The driver must have 2in of clearance between the dowel and their helmet. NOTE: If you have a non-production-based vehicle/kit car and cannot prove that the windshield frame is a structural item (letter from the manufacturer stating so), the broomstick test will be performed to the front shock tower/structural chassis point instead of the windshield frame."

My Note: If they require 2" above the helmet for kit cars like our 818 running from the roll bar to front shock tower/structural chassis point there is no 818 that will pass that test unless the driver is 4' tall.

Example BMW Car Club Boston: "Convertibles: have a retractable top, whether soft-top or folding hard-top. Convertibles additionally require:
1. An approved roll bar or roll cage where both driver and instructor sitting up right with helmets are below the top of the roll bar.
2. A 5- or more point harnesses for both driver and instructor, with belts properly routed.
3. Arm restraints."

Example: Lime Rock Driver's Club: "For members and guests protection, The Club does not allow convertibles without rollover protection to participate on-track. Factory fitted rollover systems including pop-up systems, such as those on the M3 convertible, Mini Cooper, Boxster, Carrera TT, S2000, Audi TT, 350Z, Z4, Z8, etc are allowed. All factory fitted systems must meet the “broom handle test” which measures whether the head, and helmet fit below a line formed from the top of the rollover bar to the top of the dashboard. For convertibles without factory rollover protection, a four point, structural roll bar that meets SCCA GCR guidelines for Solo 1 is mandatory."


And separate from whatever the track or organizational rules say, my personal opinion is you have to pass the broomstick test period. To perform the broomstick test have the tallest driver sit in the car in driving position. Lay one end of a "broomstick" on the roll bar, the other end on the top of the steel dash hoop. If the stick contacts the driver's helmet it's a fail.

Note, the following rule usually is not applied to HPDE but is a very good idea:
Arm Restraints. SFI or FIA-certified arm restraints are required and must be utilized in all open-cockpit cars including formula cars, and sedans with open targa tops, sunroofs, or T-tops.

[narly1]

Apologies in advance for hijacking this thread.

Just wondering if/how one should/would apply the broomstick test to a FFR33 Hot rod that will never be tracked?

Thinking dash-top (vs top of the windshield frame) to the roll bar is the correct way to do it.

[Dave 53]

Floor to top of rear roll cage bar 818R=41".

On my S, I'm getting from the top of the X brace to the top of the roll bar = 39" An R roll bar is only 2" taller that an S? Looks like more in pictures. By my calculations with my seats (which are tall and comfortable) and my 5' 11" body, I need to go 8" taller than the S height. I'm just curious how my 8" calculation stacks up to an R.

My goal is to HPDE and autocross my 818S. I use to (20 years ago) HPDE my BMW M Roadster which had roll hoops about as tall as my 818S roll bar. Not all HPDE allowed it, but many did. Back then, I never gave the safety (or lack of) any thought. We talked about what we called "the swing set" roll bar, but the conversation was around getting accepted at more events, not about actually being safer! Guess I did a lot of things back in the day that I don't care to do now.

This idea just came to me... What about bolt in roll bars? I've got a design in my head to weld in flanges with 2 roll bars that can be swapped out. I searched Miata and 911 convertible and many bolt in roll bar systems are available and I assume accepted and safe at HPDE track days. I'm thinking stock S short roll bar and uncut S engine cover that can easily be swapped out for a tall track roll bar. The track roll bar would need an R (cut out) engine cover - or no engine cover. Any thoughts on doing a track day without an engine cover?

[NAZ]

You guys that run an open cockpit with only a single rear bar are really exposed. Most tracks have dirt or grass adjacent to the racing surface so when looking at a broomstick test think about that single roll bar sinking into soft ground. And all the other hazards that come at you when your inverted that a single roll bar won't effectively prevent you from contacting. I've survived rollovers and can tell you that these things happen fast. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHhSTGVUeBY

[taco20]

Hey I wanted to add into what Sgt Gator posted.

Tidewater Sports car club changed their run because of me. I signed up for one up for their events and then they said no once I got there because our windshield is not structural.

Now I have run at the same track with a different group and had no issues. I have also run at VIR, Summit Point, and Dominion Raceway with no issues. With my cushion in my seat I don’t believe I pass a broom stick test but without the cushion I am border line. I even met with Tidewater’s inspectors at another track and they said even without the cushion it was to close for their rules.

So most tracks in my area go by NASA rules which doesn’t state a broom stick rule for HPDE events but must have a role bar in place. I normally email the club with pics of the car before signing up for an event to be sure I will be ok when I get there.

I am 5’10” and my Sparco is as low as I can get it with a lean back to help me stay below the bar with my helmet on.

[Sgt.Gator]

NAZ: "Things happen fast"
This is my home track where I instruct. Fortunately HPDE drivers are a little more cautious and are required to wait for a point by. Here's why:


https://youtu.be/-0Dyp9dxiKU

[fletch]

What the hey?!???

[driveslikejehu]

Now I'm getting nervous...
I just got my kit/donor; it's an R as I plan to do mostly track days, not a lot of street driving. I rarely see any wrecks at track days, but it does happen. Saw a rollover this year at VIR. I'll try to link to video below (sorry for the quality)
But with the R, how do you egress; with that diagonal bar? And maybe fire?
I really don't want the hassle and expense of a larger roll cage...

158205

https://youtu.be/PqYFmU1TBg8

[Hobby Racer]

... But with the R, how do you egress; with that diagonal bar? And maybe fire?
I really don't want the hassle and expense of a larger roll cage...


Yeah, I don't think there is a way to exit in a rollover if the nose is pointed down. It has given me pause more than once. I know you don't want the hassle and expense of a full halo cage, but if it bothers you that much I think its your only option.

There a a few here that have done a nice job adding a full halo to the 818R.

[Sgt.Gator]

I used to track a C6 Z06 at ORP. If you had told me 5 years ago that my Z06 could rollover and entirely crush in on the passenger side I would not have believed it. The Z06 has a factory oem roll hoop builtin that they claim exceeds the industry standard roll over protection by several times.

Looking at this pic of a C7 Z06 you'd think he must have been going 120+ mph. Nope, it lost control a little over 70 mph, probably by the time it actually rolled it was probably about 65mph.

There was a passenger in there, not an instructor, a friend. Luckily he was wearing the 3 point oem belt so he could bend over to the inside and avoid being crushed. His helmet took a a pretty good hit from the roof coming down on him, it's in the linked YouTube video.

This is why I won't instruct in a car that has race seats, 4-5-or 6 pt harness, but no roll cage or at least a stout roll bar. Harness bars don't count. The dirt at ORP is very similar to Willow Springs. It's soft and if you go off track sideways the wheels dig in and flip you.
And I won't instruct in a standard built 818C, R, or S. I'm too tall.

https://bl6pap004files.storage.live.com/y4m1b0VhAFT-CjRw05W0SKXTJc_xnAzb-nPrswSFzNGgwpRcGK4Gd70Z_Cg-iUZiQgXzsjY5OrjVtRWhyg0scNCpEXgXxx2bQv5si9CBxbgP5P KtYitPJYnj1cHH-7ypIeWGLEMvgmMKWP4olVkyggoV7Ky71LlVJvOm_fWME9gD8jX u0XzBIt-fWilpE77U9lB?width=1256&height=706&cropmode=none

The Video:
https://youtu.be/wOL2inpR0GE

[Dave 53]

Glad to see they walked away.

After asking a few questions on this thread, this is the roll bar system I ended up with.164446164447164448

Front roll bar with tow eye, rear roll bar and rear tow eye, $900 from http://evilgeniusracing.com/

[egchewy79]

whoa...scary stuff. pucker factory definitely high watching that video. glad everyone was ok.