Srobinsonx2 Bodywork

[srobinsonx2]

I am going to start a thread to cover my body work. I know some of you may not want to see another one of these but I am doing this for a few reasons. So please bear with me.

1. I have never done this before, have no idea what I am doing, and will need some help. I thought it might be easier to ask questions and get answers separate from my build thread

2. For me this feels like a separate part of the project so another thread will help me document this easier.

3. Hopefully I can capture some things that might help others. Things that are not well documented.

I have read as many of the body work threads as I could find ( JKleiner and STL-Scott were the most helpful)
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/230701-started-body-work-6583-a-13.html
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/266792-mk4-bodywork-thread-3.html
But since I have never done this before I thought maybe I could not only answer my questions but help others out as well. So here it goes.

[srobinsonx2]

Here is where my build currently stands.

I have the car mechanically complete and a little over 200 miles on the car. I have a punch list of things to fix while the body is off. I have everything bolted, screwed, riveted, or otherwise attached to the car with the following excpetions: a) side vents, b) windshield bezels where the post enters the body, c) carpet, and hood scoop. So here is my approach. Let me know if you see any issues:

1. Remove the seats, cover the dash and engine with plastic. I hope this will help minimize the dust on these components. Might be wishful thinking but I thought worth a try.

2. Clean the body again with wax remover. I have done this before but I think another cleaning won't hurt. Do I need wash the body with soap and water after the wax remover?

3. Use Rage Gold to fill in the uneven portions of the door. This mostly applies to the drivers door but there might be a couple of spots on the passenger side. I want to do the bulk of the body work and sanding with the body off the car and back on the body buck. The doors is the only body work I think I need to do while on the chassis. I want to do the bodywork with the body off the chassis in order to minimize dust on the car and in my garage. I can easily roll the body buck outside.

4. Once I am satisfied with how the doors/body match I will start disassembly in order to remove the body and start the bulk of the bodywork.

Does this approach make sense?

Couple of beginning questions:
1. I am sure I will need to apply multiple layers of Rage Gold when building up the difference between the body/door lines. Is 1/4" about the right thickness for bodyfiller layers?
2. I have read where some let the body filler completely dry before sanding. I have also seen videos on Youtube that describe sanding just after the fillers sets, essentially just after the filler is firm and not tacky. Will either way work? Does waiting after it is completely cured make it harder to sand?
3. I have seen where some clean their body filler tools (paddles or whatever they are called) with Prepsol. Is there something better?

Thanks in advance.

[srobinsonx2]

I forgot to mention that I have already dewaxed the body. I then used Comet and scotchbrite pad afterwards.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...Once I am satisfied with how the doors/body match I will start disassembly in order to remove the body and start the bulk of the bodywork...

My order FWIW; I do a rough initial fit of the moving panels with the body on the chassis then pull it to do the bodywork on parting lines, blocking, wheelwell and cowl cut/finish, door top rolls, scoop cutout, etc. They then get 2+ gallons of Slick Sand and go back on the chassis for the bodywork related to door/trunk/hood matching, gaps and final fitting. Once they come off again it's more SS and blocking then paint.



...I have seen where some clean their body filler tools (paddles or whatever they are called) with Prepsol. Is there something better?

Pick up a handfull of plastic body filler spreaders for 50 cents each. No cleaner necessary; once the filler cures on them you just bend the spreader and it snaps off.

Jeff

[walt mckenna]

Now is the time to make the cockpit a little wider. By removing 1.5" from the top of each door, you will make the cockpit 3" wider. The change is only noticeable on a side-by-side comparison and looks completely natural as if supplied that way. The difference in shoulder/arm room is dramatic with regards to feel and function. Would recommend this on any new build or re-build.

[phileas_fogg]

You may find http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/560129-carl-s-mk-4-bodyworks-faq.html and http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?9583-Carl-s-Mk-4-Roadster-Build useful as well. Carl is doing a great job documenting the trials and tribulations of a first-time body worker. And his body work is turning out pretty well too.

Cheers,


John

[Gumball]

I, too, was a bodywork neophyte - never did it before. The resources here were invaluable and I learned quite a bit in the process, particularly since I have a Mk 3.1 and did quite a few body mods.

Here's my bodywork thread.....

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?7645-Chris-Bodywork-Thread-Mk3-1&highlight=chris%27+bodywork

[srobinsonx2]

I read through the links you guys provided. Thanks for all the information and wonderful documentation. Based on what I have read I am going to modify my plan slightly.

1. I will remove the seats, roll bar, lights, windshield, wipers, and trunk hardware first.

2. Use wax remover again to make sure the body is clean

3. Sand the entire body with 120 grit sand paper to form a rough surface for the Rage Gold.

4. I will leave the body on the chassis for removing and filling the parting lines as well as the doors, hood, and trunk. I wanted to avoid all the sanding dust on the chassis and engine but everyone else has managed to deal with that clean up so I think I should be able too. Any special tips here? I want to be able to roll the vehicle outside of the garage and sand there if possible. Since I have a slope to my driveway I will need to crank the engine and drive it back into the garage. What do you guys recommend. I could put plastic in the engine compartment and cab area each time. Or should I just blow/vacuum the dust off periodically?

5. Knock down the seams with a DA sander and 80 grit. I might use a little more aggressive paper based on progress and my comfort level once I get started.

This seems to be more in line with what everyone else is doing so let me know if you see any big issues.

[srobinsonx2]

Now is the time to make the cockpit a little wider. By removing 1.5" from the top of each door, you will make the cockpit 3" wider. The change is only noticeable on a side-by-side comparison and looks completely natural as if supplied that way. The difference in shoulder/arm room is dramatic with regards to feel and function. Would recommend this on any new build or re-build.

Walt, How did you remove the 1.5"? Did you just sand this down? As I understand it, the inner and outer door panels are glued together. Will I need to use fiberglass to reattach the panels after removing this much material? I like this idea so thanks for the info.

[Gumball]

I avoided the mess when doing all of the panel fitment (doors, hood, trunk lid) by wrapping the chassis in bodyshop plastic sheeting before reinstalling the body. Here's a pic of the mess that would have otherwise ended up all over my engine.

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/2sandinggaphood_zps6cd3e2df.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/2sandinggaphood_zps6cd3e2df.jpg.html)

Here's what it looked like before putting the body on over the plastic-draped chassis....

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/ChassisCovered_zpsbad6d778.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/ChassisCovered_zpsbad6d778.jpg.html)

and with the body back on....

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/IMG_20130925_2016541_zps7264fbd0.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/IMG_20130925_2016541_zps7264fbd0.jpg.html)

[walt mckenna]

I did not do the modification myself because I have no skills in that area. I had a local fiberglass body expert do the work for me after I outlined the work area with a magic marker. I can try to get a procedure for you if you are interested in doing the job yourself. Attached are photos of the work. I have not had any other body work or painting done because my car does road and track duty and a nice paint job would be too much of an invitation for an off-track excursion.

66942669436694466945

[DadofThree]

Hi there,
I'll chime in as a person who is currently doing body work for the first time too.

Things I've learned:
Sanding is a mess. You'll find out when you start your first parting line. I was glad to have the body on the buck and away from the car.
Dont put on the Rage too thick - just making things harder on yourself
When I needed to shape areas, I used 40 grit to get the shapes roughly close, then finished it with 80 grit
Sand rage gold until it feathers with the gel coat (blends in without clear seperation) /
Use your hands on the body to feel the high and low areas (you'll know what I mean when you start)
Having too much hardener was better than not having enough
Having a mask on when sanding was enough PPE for me
Leaving a good coat of Rage on the spreader and allowing it to cure was easier to clean off than trying to clean the spreader while the rage was still soft. The former just snaps off in clumps.

I've been able to do all my bodywork so far without the body on the frame.
Note: I'm doing a Mk 3 instead of a Mk4

The Things I did:
Degreaser 2 times /
Comet and Scotchpad /
Mold lines were taken down with dremel and sanding disk to the clear fiberglass (I think this step is where we differ) / DUSTY
filled with HSRF to bring the new trenches that I made in my body back close to level with outer gel coat (Don't think Mk4 folks are doing that step) /
Sanded down HSRF after fully cured with 40 grit / Sanded entire body, doors, trunk, hood with 80 grit with 8" pool noodle to get into contours and small flexible durablock to get larger flat areas / DUSTY
Did all body sanding in a cross hatch pattern / DUSTY
Applied Rage Gold (don't put on too thick) over the mold lines and I let it cure completely when I started. You'll learn quickly when you can sand. (the hardener was tricky for me with the HSRF and Rage - Too much = hardens fast, too little hardener = digging out all of the stuff you just applied because it will never get to a sanding state. Lesson- I prefer too much over not enough.) /
Rage gold sanded very easily with 80 grit / DUSTY
When I needed to shape areas, I used 40 grit to get the shapes roughly close, then finished it with 80 grit. /
Sand rage gold until it feathers with the gel coat (blends in without clear seperation) / DUSTY
Use your hands on the body to feel the high and low areas (you'll know what I mean when you start) /
Reapply Rage, cure enough to not clog sandpaper (15 min. - 30min ish) /
Sand in cross hatch / DUSTY
Reapply Rage, cure enough to not clog sandpaper (15 min. - 30min ish) /
Sand in cross hatch / DUSTY
Reapply Rage, cure enough to not clog sandpaper (15 min. - 30min ish) /
Sand in cross hatch / DUSTY
Sanded down edges of hood to get to fit in body
Sanded down top radius of door to rid mold seam **NOTE** I sanded through and made a hole when doing this. If you're going to get into those doors to make more room, be handy with fiberglassing or get a PRO
Sprayed Slicksand over body, doors, hood and trunk
Sanded with 220 grit / DUSTY DUSTY DUSTY

That's as far as I am right now. All done on the body buck. Not to say that it has all been done correctly, but I'm pleased with the results so far, and so is my wife :)

Photos
PHOTOS OF BODY WORK (BY A ROOKIE) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/annabellerose/albums/72157674506948795)

Videos with Questions that I had - I really should put answers on the videos since I've received them
VIDEOS OF BUILD (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDbftLPzSdWZsfEe5LfhHog/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0)

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2861/33475964040_c9dd14b4ae_z.jpg

Hope this helps
Dave

[srobinsonx2]

Week 1 of bodywork has been slow. I have been out of town and did not get as much done as I had hoped. Instead of boring everyone with another "here is my plan" post, I decided to just take action and get this thing started.

First thing I did was go get some supplies at a local supply store. I bought Rage Gold, 3M Marine Premium Filler, a mixing board, and plenty of stir sticks and spreaders. The guy at the shop kind of laughed at me (not in mean way) for getting so many spreaders but I didn't want to run out. :o Hopefully all that looks ok. Anything I miseed?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67226&d=1493860699

So I decided to go ahead and remove the body from the chassis. Jeff K does it so I figured I couldn't go wrong following his lead. The body is off and back on the buck. That went smooth and I went ahead and wiped it down again with wax and grease remover.

I also started on the hood. Removed the hardware and cut the hole for the hood scoop. Before removing the body, I used a laser to shoot a line down the middle of the front of the body (nose to dash). I used the middle of the nose opening and the middle of the dash as my reference points. The center of the nose was easy to find with a tape measure. The center of the body just above the dash (where I mounted the rear view mirror) I found by using a cloth tape and the two seams on each side as a reference. I then ran the laser through those two points and marked the body/hood. No big problem and it visually looked like the center. I then followed the directions in the build manual to cut the hole for the scoop. Well when I placed the scoop as described, it wasn't quite lined up with my center marks. It was off towards the driver side by about 1/4". Probably not a big deal but I wanted it to be perfectly center. I kind of ignored the build manual guide and slid the scoop towards the passenger side. This put he back edge of the scoop on the driver side just inside the hole I cut. I contemplated how to resolve this and simply slid the scoop back and an inch or so further back than the build manual describes. Went ahead and drilled the holes and it should be ok. Here is a picture of the underside with a couple of clecos holding the scoop in place. Do you see any issues?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67224&d=1493860678

I know this will be visible when the hood is up but I thought it was more important to have the hood centered to line up with the le mans stripes. I might have to do some work on the underside to even things out. Thoughts?

Here is a picture of the hood laying in place.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67225&d=1493860690

I plan to dewax the hood, doors, and trunk tomorrow and clean everything again with comet and a scotch brite.

More to follow. I will also be logging my hours like I did in my build thread. It might be good for future builders if they want a reference for time commitment.

[Jeff Kleiner]

You should be able to fudge the scoop and stripes a bit to compensate and kind of split the difference; like Jeff Miller said to me a long time ago regarding stripe placement---"trust your eyes more than the tape measure". So true with these cars since nothing is straight or symmetrical.

This info is coming kinda' late for you now but maybe the following will help someone else who is following along. I do not use the manual's dimensions. Square cuts or too small of a corner radius can result in the issue you are dealing with. The hoods have a top and bottom layer which are bonded together then cut and I've found that center of the underside doesn't always match up with the center of the topside. For this reason I make the hole a little smaller and position it based on the indentation on the underside rather than a centerline on the top. This leaves enough room to allow for the minor adjustments on the top to center the scoop without the risk of the hole and scoop conflicting. . The photo below shows the dimensions I use when cutting them (Note that I use a 3 1/2" hole saw for the corners).

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Steve%20J/100_4863.jpg

This photo shows the fastener holes which should give you a pretty good indication of where the scoop's flange sits:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Fred%20J/100_5531.jpg

And another with it in place:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Fred%20J/100_5605.jpg

Because of the smaller hole you don't see it but the scoop is actually slightly offset in relation to the underside of the hood.

Jeff

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks Jeff. Maybe a little late but let's me know I am not running into something completely new. Not the end of the world. The only time this will be seen is when the hood is up and hopefully everyone will be looking the shiny Levy 347.:) So, my decision now is do I try and clean this up with some fiberglass work or let is go. I might set the scoop back on the hood (with some clecos) and stare at it for a while.

Instead of fiberglass could I use some HSRF to build up that side a little? I know fiberglass is probably the best way but that seems like a lot of work. It wouldn't be structural and would only serve to even up the sides. Thoughts.

P.S. I got all the parts cleaned with Comet and Scotch Brite pad this evening. I will start sanding over the next few days. Will probably have some questions then. Thanks everyone for all the help and advice.

[mcwho]

I am another one doing the body work and paint myself. Actually my son is doing it. The car sits now with most of the body work done, mostly in primer. I have just replaced the carb, and have a total of 41 miles on it since first start and drive about a year ago.

Just had a complete alignment done, ride height set, front align, rear IRS align, and 4 corner weighting etc.

I do NOT have the windshield on as yet or the hood.

[srobinsonx2]

Got off a little early today and started on the bodywork in earnest. I rolled the body buck outside, used a DA sander with 80 grit, and knocked down all the parting lines. It went pretty easy and didn't take as long as I thought it would. There were a few areas where I needed to remove the parting lines by hand. The concave areas inside the headlights, just in front of the front wheel wells, outside the trunk opening, and around the gas tank all required hand work. On most of these areas I used a short piece of pool noodle with 80 grit. The gas cap area I did by hand. I noticed quite a few areas where uncured gel coat was present and some voids/pits in the fiberglass. Here are a couple of examples.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67359&d=1494021924
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67360&d=1494021924

The darker red areas in the parting lines is where the gelcoat is uncured. I could dig it out with my fingernails. Am i removing to much material on the parting lines or not enough. I tried to strike a balance between removing the lines, go far enough to make sure there was no unfound and uncured gel coat, and leveling uneven areas.

From what I have read I need to remove the uncured gel coat. I also wanted to "smooth" the edges of the voids/pits in the fiberglass. I thought by opening up the voids a little it might be easier to get the body filler to fill these spots. Is that necessary? I decided to use a small bur bit on a dremel. I took a short video of this process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6Kgwr77N6U

Here is a picture of the parting line after the dremel work. Now that I look at it I see a small void I missed.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67357&d=1494021922

Should I use 3M HSRF to fill the voids or will rage gold be good enough?

I also took a stab at blocking the gel coat. I understand I should do this before filler and sandable primer. I did a small area just in front of the hood. I used 120 grit in a criss cross pattern. Does that look ok? I see where Jeff K and STL-Scott used 150 grit for this step. I don't have 150. If 120 is too coarse, I have 180 grit. My thought is it shouldn't matter much. I think this step is to help the filler stick?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67356&d=1494021921

Before I got too carried I wanted to make sure I was on the right track. Feel free to criticize and point out my mistakes. Thanks in advance.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I've learned a thing or two since I wrote that (much of it from comparing notes with Brother Bat). These days I do the initial gel coat block with 80.

Jeff

[srobinsonx2]

I got the entire body blocked (have not done the doors, hood or trunk lid yet). The experts now use 80 grit for this step. No reason to not follow sage advice. It took my about 6 hours to complete this part. This included cleaning up the wheel wells and trimming back the rolled cockpit edges a little. It wasn't hard just took some time. I found the sanding somewhat therapeutic. The work is pretty straight forward, a little physical, and you can see steady progress. I did all the sanding in the drive way to save the garage from all the dust. I blew the body off with my air compressor and then wiped it down with a microfiber cloth.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67407&d=1494110883

I tried quite a few of my tools. I found that I liked the soft styrofoam sanding blocks the best. They were flexible, light and had a few shapes that worked well. I also used a piece of pool noodle quite a bit. The pool noodle was especially handy on the front. I tried the Durablock and a larger flexible sander. They were ok but not as good as the soft flexible ones. At least that was my first experience. Here are my tools. My safety equipment is also there. I wore safety glasses (might not be necessary for sanding) and a dust mask.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67406&d=1494110883

If I have some time tomorrow afternoon, I will try my hand at applying Rage Gold on the parting lines. Before I do this, it is necessary to clean the area first? I was planning on wiping the area with wax remover/degreaser. Is that ok?

[Duke]

PrepAll (Kleenstrip) is your friend. You don't have to use it but it helps before applying filler. SEM guide coat is also your friend when sanding. Rage is fine for the deep parting lines, but if you have 3M HSRF it would definitely be stronger.

Two youtube vids that may help along the way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sP9Ty0jQy8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smudf-wpsoY

[srobinsonx2]

After all the sanding and blocking I wanted to get some filler on the body for a change of pace. In an earlier post I mentioned I had cleaned the voids and uncured gelcoat out of the parting lines. That left some kind of deep holes and crevices. I asked about filling those with HSRF and haven't got an answer yet. Since I am impatient, I went ahead and used some of the HSRF to fill the deep spots. The filler is white and the hardener is blue. I mixed up a small batch to start (about what I could get out with one dip of a mixing stick. I put enough catalyst for the final mixture to be a light blue. Tied my hand at sanding it. I started with 80 grit as I didn't have any 40. It sanded down pretty easy. I then mixed up a second batch with a little less hardener. This time it was a pale blue. It gave me a little longer to work the material (3-4 minutes) and allowed me to use all the filler before hardening. Since it is warm here is Texas (80 F) I have a good reference for future mixtures. I went ahead and filled all the voids and deep spots and then sanded it down with my styrofoam blocks like I did the day before on the body. I tried to mimic what I have seen on the forum by sanding until the edges were feathered. Here are a couple of pics.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67509&d=1494192276

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67510&d=1494192276

Now that I look at those pictures, this step probably didn't do much. I don't know iit is necessary but it did make me feel better and let me get comfortable with the catalyzed body fillers. I was a little messy mixing up the product on my board but got a little better with each attempt.

I wanted to start building up the shape with my Rage Gold but wasn't sure how long I needed to wait between layers of products, especially different products. I decided to wait until tomorrow or later in the week before I applied anything on top of the HSRF. Any guidance on how long I need to wait between coats of Rage Gold or other fillers?

[srobinsonx2]

Well I tried my hand at Rage Gold tonight. First attempt was pretty poor. I mixed up a small batch and applied it to the driver side rear parting line. I waited about 15 minutes and started sanding it down. 80 grit was the coarsest paper I had so I used that. Per the other bodywork threads 40 grit is what to use quickly knockdown the peaks on the filler. I think I am going to get some 40 grit. That will make working the Rage Gold a little easier. But I didn't have any and 80 did work, just a little elbow grease. Well, as I started sanding I started uncovering air pockets. I think this is what everyone is calling pin holes. Mine were a little more than pin holes. Well, I decided to sand all those out.
Here is what I started with
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67596&d=1494294967

Here are the air pockets I found
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67597&d=1494294967

And here is what I was left with when all the air pockets were gone
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67595&d=1494294967

I laughed at myself when I got to this point. :o I am going to have to get better. I will have a lot of work and will need a lot more Rage Gold if my application efficiency doesn't improve.

So I decided to try my hand at this again. With the next batch of Rage Gold, I spent a little more time mixing and trying to keep air out of the mix. I also spent a little more time applying the material to the body and "working" it into place. I also applied a thinner coat. This seemed to help. Still not great at getting the shape I want and need to improve on how much I keep on the body but overall better and no air pockets.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67599&d=1494295623

Anyone have advice for the following:
1. Keeping the air pockets out of the filler?
2. Best way to get the shape? I saw hacksaw blade trick. Maybe I will try that.

[Duke]

1. Keeping the air pockets out of the filler?

Don't whip it. Gently fold the material into itself.


2. Best way to get the shape? I saw hacksaw blade trick. Maybe I will try that.

Yellow plastic body filler spreaders. Youtube may be helpful. Keep the 'globs' off the side and apply in a much larger area than you are trying to fix.


3. Any guidance on how long I need to wait between coats of Rage Gold or other fillers?
Depends on how much hardener. Once it's hard enough for sanding, it's hard enough for recoat. Just make sure it's sanded before recoating.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Duke got it.
Use the plastic spreaders and lay it out wide along the line you're working on---in your unsanded photo it appears that you're going perpendicular rather than parallel to that quarter panel parting line. You want to be making long smooth pulls with the spreader flexed to the contour. Coarser grits cut faster but more importantly allow you to be more accurate with your shape. This might give you an idea of what can typically be expected after the parting lines are prepped:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Steve%20J/100_4879.jpg

Practice, practice, practice. Again to quote Brother Miller; "The best way to LEARN bodywork is to DO bodywork". I'll add my own to that...there isn't much of anything you can do which can't be undone.

Carry on and good luck!

Jeff

[Gumball]

One thing I was told by my bodyshop-owning friend was to always try and apply the filler in broad strokes - here's an example......

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/SecondCoat3_zpsce1e2e7b.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/SecondCoat3_zpsce1e2e7b.jpg.html)

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/SecondCoat5_zps9ac2bdec.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/SecondCoat5_zps9ac2bdec.jpg.html)

And yeah, I sanded quite a bit onto the floor, too.

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks Gumball, Jeff K, and Duke for the feedback. I am going to use this advice and give it another go. My next attempt will have to be Friday or this weekend. I have this pesky job that keeps getting in the way. I am traveling and not able to work on the car. Which mostly means I am reading bodywork article, watching bodywork videos and spending money on bodywork tools/equipment.

When I return I will try the broader strokes, wider coverage, parallel paths with the seams, and practice. I even have a wider yellow paddles that I think will allow me to contour the filler a little better as Jeff suggested.

I am researching options for paint. I have gone back and forth on having someone paint it or doing it myself. I have never painted a car before but really want the satisfaction of doing all the work myself. I have watched video on youtube, paintucation video, read articles, and harassed a guy I know that use to do some bodywork. After a lot of soul searching I know I will wish I ha performed the work myself when this is all done. Even if the paint job isn't perfect (is perfect every really possible?) I will most likely be the only one to notice (other than a professional) and I will have something I can truly be proud of.....with no regrets. Plus if I mess it up, I should be able to fix it. At least that is what I keep hearing. So I think I am committed to take this thing all the way through paint. So in my search for paint options I am drawn to the turbine HVLP paint systems. Apollo and Axis are two that I am looking at. I have read the pro and cons with this system:

Pros:
Better paint transfer efficiency
Good price point for a nice system
Some can be used to supply fresh air
clean dry air

Cons:
Air can get hot
Spraying a whole car can strain the limits of the systems

I know this is different from the typical air compressor system. My thought is since both will be new, neither has an advantage when it comes to learning or familiarity. My only big concerns is a knowledgeable resource I can rely on for support when I run into the inevitable problem. Cost wise I think a turbine system will cost a little less since I don't have a large enough compressor tfor a conventional spray system. So am I missing anything here?

PS. Since I am not working on the car, I have time to worry about future problems that are probably a long way down the bodywork/painting road. Thanks everyone.

[Duke]

Rent/borrow/buy a compressor that's large enough. Put a water filter on the gun before the regulator. Get a good gun (iwata, Sata, devilbiss). I have 2 devilbiss guns that I don't like and recently bought a Iwata Lph400-134Lvx that I love. You'll just need the silver cap for clear.

[srobinsonx2]

Duke,

That is good idea. I currently have a Husky 30 gallon compressor. It is 1.7 HP and will supply 6.8 CFM @ 40 psi. If I was able to rent a 50 gallon compressor with another 10 cfm or more at 40 psi, I might have enough compressor if tied together in parallel.

I will check into renting a two stage 80 gallon compressor as well. That would certainly help when I have issues in the future and need advice.

Thanks.

[carlewms]

Eastwood sells a 5 stage HVLP turbine system ....

http://www.eastwood.com/ew-5-stage-9-5psi-hvlp-turbine-paint-syst-wth-gun.html

Carl

[Joecobr]

Srobinsonx2,

Thanks for starting this thread. I will be doing my own bodywork as well and this thread has been very useful to me thus far.

Joe

[DaveS53]

I NEVER use those crude plastic applicators when applying body filler. Get a set of stainless steel spreaders from eastwood. Apply the filler with sufficient pressure and you won't have many air pockets. Precision applicators allow more accurate application, use less filler and reduce sanding. The only downside might be that these applicators must be cleaned before the filler hardens. You'll need acetone to do that, not degreaser. I recommend a large supply of blue paper shop towels and some brand new white cotton shop rags. Never buy red shop rags.

You have the best sanding blocks I've found - soft sanders. The blue works best for initial filler sanding and the yellow is great for more final work. If you're going to try spraying high build polyester primer, that requires a gun with a large tip, like 2.3mm. I think that an air powered paint shaker from harbor freight is a must. I first used some evercoat super build on my car. That stuff can settle in the can so bad that even a paint shaker won't mix it. I've had to pour it out in a 2.5 gallon plastic bucket and scrap out the filler material (talc) from the bottom of the can to loosen it up enough to use the paint shaker.

You want a cheap primer gun like this for polyester primer. Be sure to remove the filter screen that's in the gum, where the cup screws on. The high build will not flow through it well. You'll need lots of acetone for gun cleaning. If the primer cures in the gun, it's toast.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ttn-19023/overview/

[srobinsonx2]

Round 2: Me vs Rage Gold. I know I didn't get a knock out but I might have scored a few points.

I tried to incorporate the advice above. Here is what I did and a few things I learned.
1. Applying the Rage Gold along the length of the seam did help. Also applied it a little wider.
2. I used my larger plastic yellow paddle to apply the filler. I also tried to match the curve of the body by bending the paddle as I applied it.
3. I need to make slightly smaller batches. I got a little ambitious and tried to get the entire driver rear end done. Started setting.
4. It is about 85 degrees here. I cut back on the hardener (a strip about 80% of the width of the filler). I still have to work quickly.
5. I need some 40 grit as the experts have suggested. 80 will get it done but take some work. I have some in route and should be here tomorrow.
6. The paddles I have are completely flat on one side and a little angled on the other side. Use the angle side! I accidentally used the flat side to mix. Well when I try to wipe it off on the mixing pad, it just squishes back into my fingers. Use the angled side!!!!
7. I have been applying the Rage gold in the shade of my garage and then rolling it out in to the driveway for sanding. Makes clean up easier.

Here are some pics.

Paddles both small and large. I used the one on the right this second time and it seemed to work better.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67748&d=1494635484

My application of Rage Gold with my new technique. The back end is a little rough. The Rage Gold started to set before I got it smooth.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67746&d=1494635483

Here is an example of how I "curved" the paddle to meet the shape I wanted.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67751&d=1494636324

Here is the sanded second coat.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67744&d=1494635482

And I think the shape looks about right to me. (sorry this one is a little blurry)
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67750&d=1494636324

I will forge ahead unless you guys see something grossly wrong. I am a little more confident and think this is doable. I just realized I am going to be using my shop vac quite a bit. This part makes a lot of dust. I mean A LOT OF DUST!.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Yep, that's how you do it!

Jeff

[Duke]

Nice work, keep at it. I have a few body work images and notes in page 3 of my build thread that may be helpful for your next few steps once the parting lines are just about done:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?19953-8793-MK4-Build-(-15-IRS-16-Coyote-15-quot-wheels)/page3

[DaveS53]

Your work looks good. Just be sure that the gel coat has been scuffed with 80 grit, wherever the filler is applied. I've seen people skimp on the 80 grit scuffed areas. Your plastic spreaders look to be better quality than some you can buy and being able to curve them can come in handy.

One tricky part is to know when to quit sanding. Gel coat sands very slowly compared to filler. Sand too long where the filler meets the gel coat and you can create low spots. Don't sand finer than 220 if you plan to use high build polyester primer.

[srobinsonx2]

I am keeping track of my hours like I did in my build thread. Hopefully it helps someone in the future as they plan bodywork. I am three week in and have logged 26 hours. As I mentioned earlier I have never done this before and feel good about the progress I have made. I am getting closer on the overall shape. I probably have a couple of more applications of Rage Gold in order to get the shape on the passenger side. I have been able to get the driver side shape really close with only 2-3 coats. I think this is due to the wider bands of Rage Gold I applied after the advice from the site experts. Hopefully this week I will get this part done. I am getting better at mixing, applying and sanding.

Here is a picture of the shape. I think it looks pretty good but criticism is welcome.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67840&d=1494795796

Here is the big picture
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67839&d=1494795795

I also tried something else today. I tried to get all the Rage Gold application done earlier in the day while the temperatures were cooler (70's). The highs here is Texas have been in the 90's and that certainly seems to affect the rate at which the Rage Gold sets up. That seemed to help.

Once I finish the body shaping, I will rough up the doors, hood, trunk, and hood scoop. I don't think I want to leave the hood scoop in just the plain flimsy plastic. I have seen other bodywork threads where folks have coated the underside of the scoop with filler. Is that the right way to approach the scoop? I am going to try that unless someone disagrees.

I need to decide on a spray system. I haven't decided on a turbine system or traditional pneumatic. If all goes well, I think I am 2-3 weeks away from spraying some Slick Sand. More to come.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Leave the scoop as is. The "flimsy plastic" becomes not so when bolted/riveted to the hood. The ones you may have seen with filler on the underside were undoubtedly the old fiberglass versions which had raw 'glass cloth underneath.

I've got nothing for ya' on the turbine systems.

Jeff

[PeteH]

I have used a turbine system, and was pleasantly surprised how well it worked. It seems to spray less volume, so the travel speed is a little slower, but once I adjusted my technique, it squirted a nice fine misted spray that laid down very well. I did an engine bay of an E type Jag, with all the tubular frame etc. and it came out nice. Since I have all the HVLP guns and equipment, I won't reinvest a bunch on a turbine (they're rather expensive), since I only need them once every few years. I use air for many things. The turbine is only for spraying.

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks PeteH. I am leaning towards the turbine system. I have a small compressor (30 gallon) and from what I can tell it would not be large enough for a conventional paint gun. I looked at buying a compressor but a two stage 80 gallon compressor would cost about $1500 bucks by itself. I would then need a drying system, a decent spray gun, and some electrical work to get 220 volts in the garage. I figure it would cost me at least $2500 bucks to get a decent set up. Another option would be a rental compressor. That would cost me about $500 (based on 2 separate 1 week rentals). So a rental system and needed components would cost me about $1500. A turbine system would cost $1300-$1800 all in. So to summarize

1. Traditional compressed air system (purchase compressor): $2500
2. Traditional compressed air system (rent compressor): $1500
3. Turbine system: $1600

I have a call into Apollo (turbine manufacturer) and the regional sales guy is suppose to give me a call back. I am going to ask about recommended equipment for my tasks, flexibility, and some basic application tips. I also called Evercoat to see if they had any recommendations for applying Slick Sand through turbine system. Evercoat had an extremely cumbersome automated call routing system. I gave up and sent them an email asked the question. I will let you guys know what I find out.

Did some more Rage Gold application tonight. No exciting pictures. More of the same: Mix up rage gold, applying it quickly, wait 10 minutes, and sand it down. Rinse and repeat. I figure I have one more night of this and the major shape of the body should be done. Then onto the hood, doors, and trunk.

[srobinsonx2]

I NEVER use those crude plastic applicators when applying body filler. Get a set of stainless steel spreaders from eastwood. Apply the filler with sufficient pressure and you won't have many air pockets. Precision applicators allow more accurate application, use less filler and reduce sanding. The only downside might be that these applicators must be cleaned before the filler hardens. You'll need acetone to do that, not degreaser. I recommend a large supply of blue paper shop towels and some brand new white cotton shop rags. Never buy red shop rags.

You have the best sanding blocks I've found - soft sanders. The blue works best for initial filler sanding and the yellow is great for more final work. If you're going to try spraying high build polyester primer, that requires a gun with a large tip, like 2.3mm. I think that an air powered paint shaker from harbor freight is a must. I first used some evercoat super build on my car. That stuff can settle in the can so bad that even a paint shaker won't mix it. I've had to pour it out in a 2.5 gallon plastic bucket and scrap out the filler material (talc) from the bottom of the can to loosen it up enough to use the paint shaker.

You want a cheap primer gun like this for polyester primer. Be sure to remove the filter screen that's in the gum, where the cup screws on. The high build will not flow through it well. You'll need lots of acetone for gun cleaning. If the primer cures in the gun, it's toast.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ttn-19023/overview/

Thanks DaveS53,

I like that gun for the price. I was planning on maybe buying this and using my existing air compressor for spraying Slick Sand. Do you think a 30 gallon compressor rated for almost 7 cfm at 40 psi will work? The gun specs say the cfm requirement is 4.5-7.5 at 15-50 psi. I know what I have is marginal but hoping I can make it work for a couple of gallons of Slick Sand.

[Paintwerks]

Now is the time to make the cockpit a little wider. By removing 1.5" from the top of each door, you will make the cockpit 3" wider. The change is only noticeable on a side-by-side comparison and looks completely natural as if supplied that way. The difference in shoulder/arm room is dramatic with regards to feel and function. Would recommend this on any new build or re-build.

The only issue I see with this is if the owner wants to fit a tonneau cover. If you remove 1.5" from each door, won't the sides of the tonneau have next to nothing to drape over?

[Paintwerks]

Another vitally important element not discussed here and often overlooked, is the use of PPE, or Personal Protection Equipmement as it is known.

My doc once told me that the finest particles like you find in sanding dust) are the ones that lodge in your lungs and never come out. We all know where that leads.

I see a lot of DIY guys not using any kind of breathing protection / respirator. Some think that it's ok to use one of those over the face white masks like the plasterers use, but they are woefully inadequate. Best to use a 3M or Sundstrom filtered respirator when performing any sanding tasks. Also, recommend that you use nitrile gloves when mixing and applying filler, and cleaning your tools with solvent. Good idea to wear protective goggles too when mixing and applying filler.

Just some tips from a pro. Take them for what they are worth!

[srobinsonx2]

The middle of week 4 and I have logged 31.5 hours. My progress is slower than I wanted. I would like to get an average of 15 hours a week so I am a little behind schedule. I try to work each day but have to stop almost each evening to answer question from the neighbors. They are all interested and impressed. It is fun talking to everyone about the FFR kit but it certainly slows progress. But I will eventually get it done.

After applying a number of Rage Gold application on the parting lines (3-4 on some) I think I have the shape just about right. The only potential area for additional work on the body parting lines is the passenger rear. From a distance I think I can see a slight difference in the high point of the hump. I think the gas cap area forces the passenger rear wheel hump to be slightly wider and therefore appear a little less "proud". I am going to look at it for a while and think about it. I am sure no one will ever notice. Have others had this issue?

I started on the hood and trunk tonight. I wanted a little change of pace. Well, sanding the trunk and hood is kind of a pain. All those grooves, curves and humps essentially means it must be sanded mostly with just a piece of sand paper. I have the hood and scoop sanded with 80 grit and almost finished the trunk ( this took me about 1.5 hours).

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67952&d=1495074189

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=67951&d=1495074188

If you notice, I have the panels sitting on work stands. I bought the work stands from Eastwood and they were $25 a piece (I got two). So far I like them.

I am going to keep plugging away with sanding the doors, Rage Gold the top edges of the doors, filling some small chips along the rolled cockpit edges, and HSRF in between the hood layers where I cut the hood scoop.

I have one question. The hood is not quite in the center of my cut out (see my post 13 above for that issue and picture). I am thinking about "adding" some HSRF to that edge. It will only be cosmetic and visible when the hood is up. Here is what I was thinking. If I used the cut out from the hood, I could clamp it under that side of opening of the hood scoop hole. I could the trowel some 3M HSRF out about and inch wide and match the hood thickness. If I used some home made release agent (maybe some Pam cooking spray) on the clamped piece, it could be pulled off after the HSRF sets. Then I could sand and smooth the HSRF to essentially extend the side of the hood scoop hole that is too short. None of that makes sense I am sure. Maybe I will take some pictures of what I am thinking. What do the experts recommend? I am being lazy and not wanting to lay fiberglass which is probably the right solution.

[DaveS53]

I think you can get by with the 30 gallon compressor for priming. When spraying primer, it won't hurt a thing if you have to quit spraying for a couple of minutes to let the compressor catch up. It would not be good if you plan on applying finish coats and had to stop. On the '37 Oze fiberglass body that I did, I tried Evercoat G2, Super Build and Finish Sand. The 4:1 products are easier to mix. The Oze body was quite large and some areas were particularly bad. I estimate that I spent 500 hours on the body prep. I painted my first car before I was 16 and painted 7 more cars and 2 boats before I went off to college at age 23, in 1976. This recent car was the first I'd worked on since then, so I had to learn about all the new paint products. I didn't lose my ability to take a wavy body and make it straight. The current buffing and polishing process is much different than it was 40 year ago.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a540/dashepherd298/DSC00731_zpsnxrhquo1.jpg (http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/dashepherd298/media/DSC00731_zpsnxrhquo1.jpg.html)

[Jeff Kleiner]

I think you can get by with the 30 gallon compressor for priming. When spraying primer, it won't hurt a thing if you have to quit spraying for a couple of minutes to let the compressor catch up...

I agree mostly BUT...be aware that Slick Sand, Featherfill and similar kick off pretty quickly (to an extent they are just sprayable filler). Lots of guys have not moved fast enough and had it set in the gun. Mix small batches; even though I don't have any issue with my compressor being able to keep up I never prep more than a quart at a time. If you find that you are having much down time while waiting for air you might even want to go with just one pot at a time and may need to clean the gun part way through the session if the product is getting too heavy in the nozzle.

Jeff

PS: Pretty car Dave :)

[DaveS53]

I agree that mixing up the right amount of paint can be tricky and I sure wouldn't want to paint when it was 90 degrees. That's why my shop is heated and air conditioned. I did a lot of painting when it was snowing outside.

G2 and slick sand products use tubes of MEKP so you can adjust the amount of hardener, so they don't cure so quickly. You could cut down to as little as 1% instead of 2%. One tube is used per quart or 1/2 tube per pint. Cut that in half if it's hot. Mixing a pint at a time would be wise. The next thing you'll need is a place to toss leftover paint. A small amount can be poured onto some cardboard. You can toss it in a plastic bucket too, but don't let it get too thick or the heat may melt the bucket. I've left enough polyester resin in a plastic mixing cup to melt it.

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks Dave and Jeff. This is all new to me so thanks again for all the tips and tricks. It sure beats learning the hard way. I am continually impressed by all those so eager to help out. It is greatly appreciated.

My local supply house has SlickSand on the shelf, so that is what I am going to use. I figure I am two weeks away from that step. I want to get everything as smooth and straight as I can so I figure I will probably spray sometime in early June. By that time the temps in the afternoon will be in the 90's. As you mentioned Dave, I won't want to spray then. Since I am doing this at home, I am going to try and spray the SlickSand outside on the driveway. I think I can get a good window if I do this early in the morning. The temps will be low (well low for Texas), in the 70's, and the wind should be it's lowest. Dave, I ordered the primer gun from Summit you recommended. I also have a dryer/filter coming as well. That should allow me to spray the SlickSand. What do you guys think about this plan? With temps in the 70's should I just use the recommended MEKP? Reducer?

I am about to go sand some more. I will try and finish the trunk lid and knock out a door.

Thanks again. You guys rock!!!

[bobl]

Thought I'd share a little tidbit I ran into with my hood. I fitted/shaped it with spacers set to bring it up to level with the body and it worked great. After painting I installed a rubber seal around the hood opening only to discover it would not sit down low enough on the left front corner. Much head scratching later I realized the fiberglass was built up a lot thicker in that area causing it to be held up slightly by the seal. I ended up trimming the seal very thin in that area to resolve the problem. Had I seen it before paint I would have ground it to the correct thickness. I've never seen it mentioned before so maybe just a one off deal, but worth checking. If just using the rubber bumpers it is a non issue.

Bob

[DaveS53]

Place a large painting tarp under the body when painting. It's always possible to spill or drip paint and that stuff is not easy to remove. I used a 10' x 17' harbor freight portable garage inside my shop while painting my car. I tried to cover the floor with red rosin paper, but that did not work well, so I finally gave up on trying to keep the floor clean. I once spilled a paint cup, nearly full. All I could do was mop it up some and leave it. The plastic tent kept some of the paint dust contained, but the whole shop eventually started getting covered with fine black dust.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a540/dashepherd298/DSC00506_zpssdnvpoj1.jpg (http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/dashepherd298/media/DSC00506_zpssdnvpoj1.jpg.html)

[Jeff Kleiner]

Place a large painting tarp under the body when painting. It's always possible to spill or drip paint and that stuff is not easy to remove. I used a 10' x 17' harbor freight portable garage inside my shop while painting my car. I tried to cover the floor with red rosin paper, but that did not work well, so I finally gave up on trying to keep the floor clean....

Interesting...Different strokes for different folks! I tried tarps once and since then I always cover up with rosin paper:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Steve%20J/100_5013.jpg

Couple advantages for me:
1) Overspray is drawn into the open pores of the paper whereas with a plastic surface like found on the tarps it dries on top but remains loose---basically becomes dust.

2) Similarly, before the overspray dries on the plastic surface it is sticky and your feet stick to it pulling the tarp around as you move. As you can see in my photo above the rosin paper is still intact and laying down after being all over the body for 4 spray sessions (full black on top of primer, metallic black for stripes, body color and clear).

3) So easy to clean up! A few slices with a utility knife, roll it up and the floor is untouched. A 500 square foot roll runs about 11 bucks plus a $3 roll of painters tape. Works for me anyway :)

Jeff

[Jeff Kleiner]

Srobinsonx2,
My photo in the previous reply brings me to another subject---the body buck. I do most bodywork and all painting on one that has been modified. I cut the front and rear cross sections back away from the wheelwells and then moved the fore and aft outriggers inward, These changes leave me plenty of room to get everywhere with the gun without obstruction. I also added a support at the rear to hold the tail. Here's a few pics I turned up:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Fred%20J/100_5327.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Fred%20J/100_5536.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Fred%20J/100_5535.jpg

Even after blowing it off and hosing it down following bodywork it's still the dirtiest thing in the garage and I don't want any of that crap blowing loose and into the finish when I'm spraying so I use poly/paper drop cloths like these stapled tight to wrap it up:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-9-ft-x-12-ft-Paper-and-Poly-Drop-Cloths-2-Pack-02304-HD/100182153

Paper side out, plastic side in (for the same reason that I mentioned in the previous reply---so that the overspray soaks into the pores of the paper and gets trapped). DO NOT use visqueen type plastic! The overspray will dry on it and when you make subsequent passes the air flexing the plastic will break paint chips loose and of course you know where they're going to end up...right in that nice clear coat you just laid down :mad: Thankfully it didn't happen to me but I watched it happen to someone else and it sure did teach me a lesson!

Cheers,
Jeff

[srobinsonx2]

Thought I'd share a little tidbit I ran into with my hood. I fitted/shaped it with spacers set to bring it up to level with the body and it worked great. After painting I installed a rubber seal around the hood opening only to discover it would not sit down low enough on the left front corner. Much head scratching later I realized the fiberglass was built up a lot thicker in that area causing it to be held up slightly by the seal. I ended up trimming the seal very thin in that area to resolve the problem. Had I seen it before paint I would have ground it to the correct thickness. I've never seen it mentioned before so maybe just a one off deal, but worth checking. If just using the rubber bumpers it is a non issue.

Bob

Thanks Bob,

I was planning on using the little bumpers that came with the kit. I have heard others use this strip you are talking about. Do you think it looks better or was it for a better seal? I will go look at the picture I took of your car.

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks a lot Jeff. I spent some time last night trying to find the post where you talked about the absorbent drop cloth on the body buck but could find it. I knew you had posted that before somewhere. You just saved me quite a bit of time. I was also planning on cutting the body buck back around the wheel wells but not as aggressively as you suggest. I like what you did and that makes a lot more sense. I will do that this weekend. That will also allow me to add the rear end support that you have . I tried something but it didn't work. I will also get some of the rosin paper as well. I am so going to fashion up a frame to hold the doors like you have done. Man you guys are smart.

Question for you (or other experts). When spraying (either high build primer or paint) the hood and trunk, how do I get both sides in one painting season? Maybe I don't. With the Slick Sand can I just start by painting the underside, get the doors, then the body. By the time I am done, will the underside of the trunk and hood by dry enough to flip and get them? In your pictures, it appears you some small posts, or pegs, that the trunk and hood sit on. Is that integral to the flip and coating process? I have similar work stands but no pegs, just covered with padding. Sorry for these dumb questions and thanks so much for your time.

Shannon.

[srobinsonx2]

Forgot to post this. My first automotive paint gun. Well, it is just a primer gun but none the less. A first for me.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68010&d=1495248029

I have watch a bunch of Youtube videos on painting techniques. I found a couple of "drills" that I will practice to help teach me some fundamentals. One is without any paint and the others using a craft paint on cardboard. The first one I saw from Kevin Tetz. He said to tape a paint brush to the end of the paint gun so the bristles are about 6 inches from the end of the gun. Then practice moving along the body while keeping the brush bristle tips lightly moving along the body. The second one is spraying water based craft paint on to a cardboard box. Pretend it is a car and "chase the wet edge" as Kevin calls it. Hopefully that will get me a little more comfortable with the equipment and I will learn some fundamentals.

[bobl]

Mainly I just liked the look. It does help seal the hood in case you ever got stuck in the rain and the hood feels a bit more solid when shutting it.

Bob


Thanks Bob,

I was planning on using the little bumpers that came with the kit. I have heard others use this strip you are talking about. Do you think it looks better or was it for a better seal? I will go look at the picture I took of your car.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Shannon, I'm traveling this weekend but will post up photos and info on my hood and trunk lid flipping contraptions on Monday. Some guys hang them vertically but I prefer to shoot them in their installed orientation to avoid the potential for metallic "grain" mismatch.

Jeff

[Jeff Kleiner]

Oops!

[Jacob]

Interesting...Different strokes for different folks! I tried tarps once and since then I always cover up with rosin paper:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Steve%20J/100_5013.jpg

Couple advantages for me:
1) Overspray is drawn into the open pores of the paper whereas with a plastic surface like found on the tarps it dries on top but remains loose---basically becomes dust.

2) Similarly, before the overspray dries on the plastic surface it is sticky and your feet stick to it pulling the tarp around as you move. As you can see in my photo above the rosin paper is still intact and laying down after being all over the body for 4 spray sessions (full black on top of primer, metallic black for stripes, body color and clear).

3) So easy to clean up! A few slices with a utility knife, roll it up and the floor is untouched. A 500 square foot roll runs about 11 bucks plus a $3 roll of painters tape. Works for me anyway :)

Jeff

Where does one find Rosin Paper typically or does it have another common name?

[DaveS53]

Home depot has the red paper and brown paper in large rolls.

When you get down near the end of the roll, it curls up badly, making installation difficult. Spray a lot of epoxy primer and it will become sticky enough to stick to your shoes.

Here's a product used in home construction, to protect floors. It's 46 mils thick. After laying new hardwood floors, it's used to prevent damage.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ram-Board-38-in-x-50-ft-Temporary-Floor-Protection-Roll-RB-38x50/202823781

[Jeff Kleiner]

stick with rosin paper, the brown isn't heavy enough for foot traffic.

Jeff

[srobinsonx2]

Shannon, I'm traveling this weekend but will post up photos and info on my hood and trunk lid flipping contraptions on Monday. Some guys hang them vertically but I prefer to shoot them in their installed orientation to avoid the potential for metallic "grain" mismatch.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. That will be very helpful and much appreciated.

Two additional question for the group:

1. I have reread STL-Scott's thread multiple times and am a little confused about pre primer sanding requirements (I am sure I am making more out of this than is needed). It appears he sanded the body with 180 grit prior to Slick Sand (it looks like you suggested 150 in that thread??). Then he later mentioned 80 grit again. The technical sheet on Slick Sand says sand to a minimum of 80 grit. I also found a post on the other forum where Jeff Miller suggest using 80 grit prior to poly primer. See post #5. http://www.ffcars.com/forums/33-ask-street-rod-painter/511993-mk4-body-prep-kit.html. So, maybe 80 is the way to go? Would 120 be OK to use?

2. I did not use 3M HSRF on the gap between the two hood layers. Bonehead mistake on my part. I ordered 3M HSRF off Amazon (or so I thought). I didn't carfully read the label until after I was finished applying it (waiting for it to dry). I saw then that is was "Marin Premium Filler". Not the same as far as I can tell. That stuff is now hard and not easily removed. Do you guys think I will be ok leaving that way. I am sure the hood flexes some and will this material hold up as well as HSRF? If I should fix this, how?

[DaveS53]

Here's link to the slick sand tech sheet. I does not require extremely coarse sanding, prior to application. 120 grit should be fine. Areas where filler work was done can be sanded as fine a 220.

http://www.evercoat.com/images/ePIM/original/TDS_100709_SLICK_SAND_2_2015_EN.pdf

As for the gap filling, while a fiberglass reinforced product would work, so would other products. If the inner and outer skins were still bonded together and you were only filling gaps, a high strength product would not be required. Gaps between the panels could be tricky to properly prep and clean, prior to bonding. That's just as important as the type of filler used. Now that's the gaps are filled, removing the filler and replacing it with some other product would be tough. I wouldn't bother with it.

Fiberglass reinforced fillers are most often used whenever filler is applied in excess of 1/8" thick. Just about every brand of filler can be had in a fiberglass reinforced version. I used long strand bondo hair and short strand bondo glass for a number of substantial repairs on my car. I had to completely rebuild two edges around my door openings and the 13' long edge around my trunk opening. Those edges had extremely thick gel coat applied in the mold. The thick gel coat was brittle and just like a sponge - full of holes both big and small. I had to grind about a 1/2" wide chamfer to remove the gel coat and rebuild with reinforced filler. So far, I've had no problems with the repaired areas. The reinforced filler is also prone to have pinholes, so it’s always recommend to only use it for the majority of the fill, then finish with ordinary filler.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a540/dashepherd298/IMG_3611_zpsacoxubfk.jpg (http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/dashepherd298/media/IMG_3611_zpsacoxubfk.jpg.html)

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a540/dashepherd298/IMG_3612_zpseu4murro.jpg (http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/dashepherd298/media/IMG_3612_zpseu4murro.jpg.html)

[srobinsonx2]

I wasn't able to do much body work with week. I was out of town on business and spending some time with the family for Memorial Day weekend. I did get the body buck narrowed up like Jeff K suggested. I also did a little more work on the wheel well lips. Here is picture of the new and improved body buck.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68256&d=1495850185

I have another question. I was wearing some leather gloves to do the sanding. I laid them on the body by accident and now I have a stain. I think it is oil and sweat. I tried cleaning it with wax and grease remover but no luck. I sanded on it a little but that didn't help. It will probably be ok but should I sand this down and build it back up or just forget about it. Just don't want this to mess up my paint at some point down the road. Here is a picture.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68257&d=1495850268

[DaveS53]

If acetone won't remove all traces of the stains, it should be sanded down. Don't take chances. There's nothing worse than a failed paint job due to the lack of an extra hour of work. You should have acetone around. You'll need a lot to clean up your gun after spraying polyester primer.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Question for you (or other experts). When spraying (either high build primer or paint) the hood and trunk, how do I get both sides in one painting season? ...

Here ya' go Shannon:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?24635-Painting-setup-for-doors-hood-and-trunk&p=281442&posted=1#post281442

Cheers,
Jeff

[Straversi]

Here ya' go Shannon:
Cheers,
Jeff

This forum amazes me sometimes. That's a heck of a lot of experience handed over just because someone asked. Cheers to you Jeff and to all the wise ones who keep us newbies going!
-Steve

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks so much Jeff. This site really is awesome. It is made possible by a bunch of fantastic folks.

I am not going to be able to work on the car until this weekend. Something has come up and I have to travel for work this week......again. My day job is really getting in the way. :(

I will start working on the "JeffK panel apparatus" this weekend. The first coat of Slick Sand might have to wait until the next weekend.

[srobinsonx2]

Well, I got back in town and got a little work done on the bodywork. After a few honey do's I got about 6 hours of work this weekend. After 6 weeks I have 50 hours on the bodywork. Not at the pace I wanted but I do have a day job and these little breaks keep my excitement up for continuing progress.

Thanks again to Jeff K for the panel holders and flip apparatus. That was my main focus this weekend. Here is a picture of the door panel holder:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68588&d=1496602172

I also mounted the eye bolts and all thread on the hood and trunk lids.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68590&d=1496602174

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68591&d=1496602174

I also finished up a few items. One was the rolled edge on the top edge of the doors. I used a small piece of radiator hose as a trowel for the Rage Gold on this edge. I cut it in half and it worked pretty well. I put the Rage Gold on the door edge with one of my trusty yellow spreaders. Kind of just spread it along the edge as best I could. Then I used the half piece of radiator hose to make it as smooth as I could. Here is the tool and the first application of Rage Gold.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68587&d=1496602171

I also cleaned up the wheel wells. I know that no one will every look up under the edge but I just wasn't happy with a few uneven areas. It seems like the fiberglass is a little thick in a few areas. So I decided to use some filler to fix this. My plan is to paint about a 1 inch inside the lip. Hopefully this will give this area a finished look. Here is a picture of the rear passenger wheel well lip.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68589&d=1496602173

I hope to be able to spray some Slick Sand next weekend. I have a few areas to touch up, I want to lightly block the car one more time with 80 grit, and get the parts all cleaned up. I also plan to practice with my primer gun. I have never sprayed paint or primer before so I am going to get some water based craft paint and give it go on some cardboard.

Wish me luck and let me know if you see any things I missed.

[srobinsonx2]

I wanted to share a quick update and ask a question or two.

First, If any of you had been following my build thread, I posted some color samples I was considering. Now that I have committed to painting the car myself, I felt like I needed to get a paint option (2 stage) that I could manage. The silver I have selected is paint code ID6, which is Toyota's Silver Sky Metallic. The red I have finalized on is ARH, which is Chrysler Blaze Red Crystal Pearl. I order some samples in aerosol cans from Automotivetouchup.com. Here is my final color combo selection:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68795&d=1496973004

Second, I decided to make one more pass over the car with 80 grit in preparation for Slick Sand. I spent extra time to make sure I got all the difficult areas like around the hood, trunk, door and nose. Those areas had a few areas with "slick" gel coat. I then blew it off with compressed air and wiped it down with a microfiber towel. I used a cheap microfiber towel my wife had for cleaning in the house. Just don't tell her I took two. They work great for grabbing all the dust that the compressed air missed. I don't usually sand inside my garage but if I did, this would be a great way to clean up after using a vacuum. It works really well. It is like a dust magnet.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68794&d=1496973003

Now my question. After the blowing and wiping the car down with the microfiber, I wiped the entire body down twice with wax and grease remover. I noticed something strange. At the front of the body, where it rests on the body buck, I noticed some very fine cracks in the gelcoat. They don't appear to be in the fiberglass but since I have covered the underside of the body with black bed liner it is hard to be 100% certain. These spider cracks are not visible with the body dry. I can only see them when I spray wax and grease remover and it has evaporated from around it. When I investigated, the pipe insulation I used between the body and the buck had compressed and the very edge of the plywood support was slightly touching he body. It is on both sides in about the same spot. I pressed hard on these areas, shined a light from underneath, and shined a light from above. I can't see any fiberglass damage. Here is a picture :

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68793&d=1496973002

What do you guys think? I would hate to ignore it and then have it show up after paint. If it needs some attention, what is the best way to address something like this?

I was hoping to spray Slick Sand Saturday morning but it might depend on how i need to address these areas.

Thanks in advance.

[carlewms]

Thanks for posting this last one ... I need to check my car today since I am getting ready for the first primer coat .

[srobinsonx2]

Carl,

I did a quick search online a found a number of links about cracks in gelcoat on boats. Here is one that talks about how to repair them. Hopefully you don't find any but if you do, please share how you resolve them.

http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/maintenance/how-repair-spider-cracks-fiberglass

It sounds like if they are not into the fiberglass then they are cosmetic. Also the main concern seems to be water getting between the gel coat and underlying layers. One of the fixes was to grind them out and fill it with polyester filler. Since that is what I am using(Rage Gold and Slick Sand), I think I would be ok to just spray Slick Sand right over the top. My cracks are not even visible without using a substance that will get in the crack and stay while the remaining either gets wiped off or evaporates. That is why the wax and grease remover highlighted them. Anyway, I should probably wait and see what some of the experts advise.

Thanks.

[DaveS53]

I found this type of crack on one of the fenders on my car, but it had been driven for 1200 miles with no undercoating, before it was torn down for paint. I suspected a crack from a rock hit. Sanding through the gel coat and applying some acetone to the area showed the crack to be in the fiberglass. I then sanded off the Lizard Skin material from the underside, used a 3" sanding disc to sand clear through the body and applied new mat and resin from both sides to restore the area.

At some point you should be wiping the body with acetone, before applying the primer. Final wiping should be done with brand new wiping rags or special paper wipers. Never use rags that have been washed and dried at home. If anti-static dryer sheets have been used in the dryer, it will contaminate the rags. Don't use blue paper shop towels with acetone.

If you sand through the gel coat and don't see any evidence of cracks in fiberglass after applying some acetone, then you should be able to just use the Rage filler to repair the area.

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks Dave. I will sand the gelcoat down when i get home this afternnon. Hopefully I won't find any fiberglass damage and can fill with Rage Gold. My goal is to get this thing in primer so I can start final panel fitment and driver side door filler.

Wish me luck.

Also, thanks for the acetone tip. I didnt know to do that.

[DaveS53]

Here's a good wiping material that can handle acetone, lacquer thinner and urethane thinner.

http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/merfin-pro-prep-auto-body-wipes-p-12916.aspx

Here's what the top side of my star crack repair looked like, before fiberglassing. Notice the neat, clean and organized shop. :rolleyes:

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a540/dashepherd298/DSC00663_zpslmocc7fd.jpg (http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/dashepherd298/media/DSC00663_zpslmocc7fd.jpg.html)

A large area on the underside was also prepped and all the 'glass applied at once, to sandwich the old and new.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a540/dashepherd298/DSC00664_zpsyklr4wfr.jpg (http://s1282.photobucket.com/user/dashepherd298/media/DSC00664_zpsyklr4wfr.jpg.html)

[srobinsonx2]

Lol. Thanks. Looks like my garage. :o

[srobinsonx2]

I wanted to spray some Slick Sand Saturday morning but had some delays. One was the spider cracking I posted about earlier. I took Dave's advice and fixed it. I first ground it out using my die grinder and a 36 grit pad. I took my time and tried to just remove the gel coat.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68872&d=1497135510

Once it was removed I cleaned it good with acetone. While doing this I inspected for cracking in the fiberglass. I could not see any fiberglass damage on either the passenger or driver side. So with the area cleaned, I filled both with Rage Gold, sanded, filled again, sanded, and ended with a patch that I think should provide a good foundation. Let me know if you guys disagree.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68871&d=1497135509

I am getting better with the Rage Gold. I feel like I can apply it before it starts to set (although I can't doddle) and have the hang of sanding it down. I start with 40 grit to get the shape then finish this stage up with 80 grit in preparation for primer.

I then spent some time finishing the JeffK flip apparatus. Those are now complete, tested and should be good to go. I also wiped the entire body and all panel down again with wax and grease remover. I then wiped everything down again with acetone like was recommended by Dave. I have everything prepped and ready for primer. I think I am going to try and spray the Slick Sand tomorrow morning first thing. I am just a little nervous about the spray gun I bought. Not that it won't work but this is my first time using a HVLP style gun. To get familiar and to tested it, I sprayed some latex onto some cardboard. I wanted to see how it would spray a thick material. It did ok and I tried some different pressure setting, fan, and fluid settings. The pressure setting and fan setting seemed to make a difference but the fluid throughput setting didn't make much difference but that could have been because of the thick latex. Anyway, I will lay down some plastic in the driveway tomorrow morning early and take a stab at it. Wish me luck

[DaveS53]

Just be sure you've removed the filter screen where the cup screws onto the gun. I didn't see it when I first got this gun and clogged it up quickly with the high build primer.

Your repair of the cracked gel coat looks good.

[srobinsonx2]

Well I got it done. No big issues but some serious learning. First some pictures:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68905&d=1497215873

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68903&d=1497215871

I sprayed a gallon and it went well. I got three coats on the body but only two coats on the panels. Next time I will be able to get a little thinner and probable get better coverage. I would really love some critiquing here so I can improve. Let me know what you think about my method, technique, and application:

1. Using the primer gun listed above in post 54 (2.3mm tip). Set the pressure to 3 bars (40-45 psi) at the gun inlet with the trigger pressed.
2. Using the 3M PPS regular size which is 20.3 oz or about 500 ml.
3. Mixed up 480 ml of slicksand, added the appropriate amount of catalyst and mixed.
4. Sprayed then cleaned the gun.
5. Started over.

So the first batch I sprayed went much faster than I thought and only cover about 1/2 the body. I think I was spaying it too thick (moved too slow and too close). I noticed quite a bit of orange peel (at least I think that is what it is). The second batch I moved faster with more overlap and a little further away. That seemed to help but the primer still wasn't perfectly smooth. That batch allowed me to finish covering the body. I then realized I was not going get to 3 full coats on everything and may not even get 2 if I don't apply the material a little thinner.
The third batch allowed me to cover the panels and a little on the body. Batch 4 I covered the body almost completely. Batch 5 I finished the body for the second time and got the panels covered a second time. My final batch I thinned with about 10% acetone. That batch sprayed alot better and seemed to be smoother. That batch covered the entire body but really nothing left for the panels.

I then took the PPS liner from the final batch and used a Qtip to fill all the pinholes (thanks to the experts for that tip). Here is picture of the pin holes and a close up on the finish.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68904&d=1497215872

I can still see some of the 40/80 grit sanding marks but they might sand out, we will see. I plan on getting the body back on the chasis, fit the panels, and then block it out with 180 grit (using a guide coat of course). Does 180 grit sound right at this point?

Thanks as let me know if you see any issues.

[Jeff Kleiner]

You're doing OK but except for your final pass after getting a good heavy coverage you really don't want to thin high build products like Slick Sand; that kind of defeats the purpose. I generally put on at least 2 full gallons on the first round, often 2 1/2. After the panel matching and prior to paint they get another 1.5 to 2 gallons. As you found if you thin your final pass about 10% with acetone or reducer it will lay down a little slicker to reduce sanding. In the end I'd say you need more SS on the body but you can make that up on your second round after panel matching. I don't bother with guide coats; you can clearly see the high/low color change in the Slick Sand.

Carry on and good luck!

Jeff

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks Jeff. That make sense. I will do as you recommended and put on more SS after panel fitment (3-4 total). Since Im going to be spraying more SS, I think I will skip the block sanding this first application. Does that sound ok? Here is what I was thinking of doing. Sound OK?

1. Put the body back on the chassis
2. Fit panels and fix the driver side door problem.
3. Skip the block sanding (let me know if you think this is OK) I might knock down the pin holes I filled.
4. Remove the body and panel from the chassis
5. Spray 2 gallons of SlickSand on the body and panels
6. Block the body with 180/200grit then with ~300 grit.

Sorry for all these elementary questions. I have been reading as many of the bodywork threads as I can but get differing opinions. Thanks guys. This site is awesome and a great resource for guys like me that are trying to do this for the first time.

[DaveS53]

I recommend using the blue soft sander blocks for this next step. I would not use durablocks because they are far too stiff, unless a panel is really flat. This body appears to curve in all directions, much like the my '37.

I really prefer super build when trying to build up some thickness.

This type of primer will always have a fair amount of orange peel, but that helps when sanding. You can watch it disappear and then stop sanding. If you see the gel coat showing, definitely stop, since it sands much slower than the primer.

[srobinsonx2]

I did some more searching on primer and sanding. I knew somewhere I had seen a concise list of steps. I finally found it. J.Miller posted this back in 2014.
and I quote......

"36-40 on a 5in grinder to take the parting lines flush.
40 on orbital or block 3-4 in on both sides of the line.(big bite for filler)
40 grit on a block to shape.
80 grit on a block to finish.
The rougher the grit, the truer the shape.
80 grit on the gelcoat before prime.
3 coats polyester prime
Block with 150-180
3 coats urethane primer
Block 320
finish sand for paint 500-600
...da Bat"

Here is link to that thread.
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/405881-sandpaper-use-body-prep.html

This really is a great community of folks. I am still amazed at all the help and support these experts provide to amateurs like me and so many others. Thanks for taking the time to help us out.

I am trying to capture answers to as many of my silly questions in one thread as possible. What I have found is there is more than one way to do this body work business (who would have thunk it).

After reading some more threads and pondering over my plan. I decided it wouldn't hurt to try and block the first primer application with 180 grit. Since I am going to need a couple of more gallons anyway, I figured what the heck....lets take a stab at smoothing it out some. I got the back half of the car blocked out tonight and it took a little less than 2 hours. I used the flexible foam sanding blocks. They really are easy to "fit" to the curve. Here is a pic of the two I found most useful (sorry for the blue shade of the pic, not sure what happened). They are a narrow blue one and a oval shaped purple one.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68980&d=1497321817

I tried it with and without a guide coat. I used a black powder you rub on with a sponge type applicator. I think it is a little easier for me to see all the small low spots easier with the guide coat. Here is a picture of the driver side rear quarter panel.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68979&d=1497321816

If look close you can see the criss cross pattern I am using like everyone mentions. I am only using 180 grit at this point but I really like the feel of the Slick Sand after is it sanded down. I was surprised at how smooth and silky it feels. I did get some funny looks from the neighbors while I was caressing the rear end of my car. Sorry, this is supposed to be family friendly. Anyway, I will continue with my plan of panel fitment and sanding this application of Slick Sand. Sanding primer is way more fun than the stinky red get coat anyway.

More to come.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Shannon,
Sorry, didn't see your question yesterday but it seems you found what you were looking for in Batty's old post (don't ever doubt the bat :); after experimenting my "recipe" now is more like his). I'm the last guy to preach about PPE 'cause I'm terrible about using it BUT---if you aren't already doing so please wear at least a particulate mask when sanding polyester primer. That stuff in your lungs is bad news.

Jeff

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks Jeff for the safety reminder. Always good to check. I am using a P100 cartridge (dust) in a half mask respiraor and safety glasses. When i sprayed the primer i used an organic vapor/acid gas 3M cartridge. I sprayed it outside but better safe than sorry.

[srobinsonx2]

No update. Just a question. If my work goes as planned, I would like to be at a point to spray some urethane primer the weekend before July 4th. I am following the sage advice of J.Miller and plan to apply 3 coats of a urethane primer after I finish blocking the 3 coats of SlickSand and all panel prep. I am buying my supplies at a local supply shop that carries PPG products. I have been researching primers on the PPG website but to perfectly honest, I am overwhelmed. Between the Deltron and ShopLine products there are probably 6-8 products that appear to be urethane in the primer category. Does anyone have a urethane primer they can recommend? Preferably made my PPG.

I found a post where Gordon Levy recommended DPLF but it is listed as epoxy. DPLV3055, JP285, and JP355 all look like good candidates.

I have also done some research on the urethane primer color. I need to pick something that will support the basecoat color. Since my color scheme is going to be red with silver stripes, a gray urethane primer appears to be best choice. Does that sound right?

Thanks in advance.

[DaveS53]

After buying Evercoat products from Auto Body Toolmart, that cost $100 a gallon or less, I was shocked when I went to my local Axalta (dupont) paint dealer and found that he wanted $200 a gallon for most products.

I saw no reason to pay that much for primer, so I bought some products from Eastwood, some Kirker products and some from Summit Racing. They all worked fine. Some people recommend an epoxy primer, but they do take a lot longer to cure. One advantage to an epoxy is you know that it's compatible with polyester filler products, so if you discover an area that needs some glazing putty, it won't be a problem to coat over the primer.

The DPLV3055 or less expensive JP285 should both work, but so would many other urethane primers.

These primers will be thinner and need a gun with a 1.6-1.8mm tip. A moderately priced gun can still be used for urethane or epoxy primers, but at some point, you'll also need a much better and higher priced gun to spray finish coats, unless you have someone else do that part. I had a hard time finding any moderately priced gun that did a decent job of spraying finish coats. Although I've previously painted 8 cars and 2 boats, all of that was done many years ago, mostly with lacquer paints, and before HVLP guns were made. When it came to painting with the new urethane finish coats, I found that they don't spray like lacquer. I think that lacquer was much easier, but of course, I would not use it today. I used a Devilbiss ********** gun ($200), but wasn't impressed with it. If there's a next time, I'll bit the bullet and buy a much higher level gun.

[srobinsonx2]

72.5 hours logged on the bodywork after 8 weeks. I got the body remounted on the chassis. Prior to mounting the body, I draped some plastic over the chassis to minimize the amount of dust on the engine and interior. I got the quick jacks attached and the sides of the body attached under each side. I placed the windshield on and did not see any movement at the doors so instead of getting it completely filthy, I decided to leave it off during this portion.

Once the body was mounted, I did my best to optimize the position of each door. Just like everyone else that has reported on the bodywork, the passenger door is really pretty close. It might need a little filler but minimal. The driver side door is way off. I was able to "split the difference" and was able to get the back (latch end) to line up, which left it quite a bit off on the lower front. So I broke out the Rage Gold and started applying layers on the driver door. I put 3-4 layers on so far and almost have it level. It is hot down here is Texas (99 today) so I didn't quite finish. Here is a shot mid way through the process. Took this while I was waiting for the Rage Gold to cure.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69095&d=1497747885

What a mess.

I will say, I can tell a real difference in the how fast the Rage Gold cures when it is hot. I have to really work fast or I am left with a lot of extra sanding.

Hopefully I can finish the door up tomorrow. I will then finish blocking the first application of Slick Sand, touch up a few small areas, pull the body off again, and then start getting ready for the second application of Slick Sand. Based on feedback from the experts, I am going to buy two gallons of Slick Sand and spray 3 coats on all parts. I will block this out and prep for a 2K urethane primer surfacer. I would like to get the primer surfacer on by July 4th. I can then block it all out with 360 and finally 600 grit before paint. If all goes well, I can get this thing painted in July.

More to come.

[srobinsonx2]

After buying Evercoat products from Auto Body Toolmart, that cost $100 a gallon or less, I was shocked when I went to my local Axalta (dupont) paint dealer and found that he wanted $200 a gallon for most products.

I saw no reason to pay that much for primer, so I bought some products from Eastwood, some Kirker products and some from Summit Racing. They all worked fine. Some people recommend an epoxy primer, but they do take a lot longer to cure. One advantage to an epoxy is you know that it's compatible with polyester filler products, so if you discover an area that needs some glazing putty, it won't be a problem to coat over the primer.

The DPLV3055 or less expensive JP285 should both work, but so would many other urethane primers.

These primers will be thinner and need a gun with a 1.6-1.8mm tip. A moderately priced gun can still be used for urethane or epoxy primers, but at some point, you'll also need a much better and higher priced gun to spray finish coats, unless you have someone else do that part. I had a hard time finding any moderately priced gun that did a decent job of spraying finish coats. Although I've previously painted 8 cars and 2 boats, all of that was done many years ago, mostly with lacquer paints, and before HVLP guns were made. When it came to painting with the new urethane finish coats, I found that they don't spray like lacquer. I think that lacquer was much easier, but of course, I would not use it today. I used a Devilbiss ********** gun ($200), but wasn't impressed with it. If there's a next time, I'll bit the bullet and buy a much higher level gun.

Thanks Dave. You have really been helpful through this process. I have been researching primer for use after Slick Sand. I will ask the PPG supply shop what they recommend but it appears that JP202 or JP355 might be my best options if I don't use the Deltron line. They both are gray and seem to be appropriate for this application. The primer surfacer might not be absolutely necessary but if it helps reduce the amount of paint needed then it certainly could save me a little money. Plus it will give me the peace of mind that I have a good solid foundation (no thin primer areas) for paint.

As for the gun. I pulled the trigger and bought a turbine spray system. I bought the Apollo Power-5. I comes with the turbine, hose, and a spray gun. The gun is an Apollo 7500 Atomizer gravity feed. It comes with a 1.0mm nozzle and needle set. I went ahead and bought a nozzle and needle set that gets me a 0.8mm, 1.3mm, 1.5mm, and 2.0mm set as well. From what I read, I should be able to use the 2.0mm nozzle and needle set for the surfacer. The instructions are pretty helpful and recommend checking viscosity to ensure the correct set up. Based on that I went ahead and bought the recommended viscosity cup. It should allow me to match the recommended set up in the manual. We will see.

[srobinsonx2]

I just about got the driver's side door complete. Maybe a little more sanding but it looks much better.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69155&d=1497829673

I will sand this again with 80, then 120 grit to get it as smooth as I can. I will then set the gaps and move on to the passenger side door.

I also did some more blocking with 180 grit on the rest of the body. I have blocked about 90% of the body on the first application of Slick Sand.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69154&d=1497829671

I will be glad when I can get the body back off the chassis and do the sanding outside. This process makes such a mess. I vacuum up at the end of each sanding session but it is still messy.

When I started this process, I remember reading all the posts about sanding: the mess and how it gets real old real quick. I thought to myself, "How hard could it really be?" Well, I am tired of sanding and I got quite a ways to go. The Slick Sand is not to bad but I am tired of sanding Rage Gold. Hopefully that part is about over. For what it is worth, I opened the second can of Rage Gold today. So, I have applied one full gallon and just a little out of the second. If, someone experienced was doing this, they could probably get by with just one gallon but I turn as much into dust as I leave on the body.

More dust to come.

[srobinsonx2]

This will come as no surprise to anyone.....I am still sanding!!! I think I have built the doors up to match the body. I also got the gaps set on the doors and hood. I will tackle the trunk tomorrow.

Here is a picture of the door gap on the driver's side. I made them 3/16" per the recommendations from the forum experts.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69221&d=1498012610

I tried a few different methods to define the gap. I started by using a paint stir stick but that wasn't very useful when it wouldn't fit into the gap. I decided to try a metal caliper. Here is a picture of the tool.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69223&d=1498012631

I just set the tips so they were 3/16" apart. I then put one end on the inside edge of the body edge and used the other point to "score" a line on the panel. Here is what the score line looks like. I then used a DA to remove the bulk of the material and finished it by hand.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69222&d=1498012617

I also have the entire body blocked out to 180 grit where I applied the Slick Sand.

I will continue to work on preparing for my second application of Slick Sand. I was hoping to spray all 3 coats this weekend but I don't think that will happen. Too much work and they are predicting rain. Since I doing the Slick Sand outside I don't want to take the chance.

More to come.

[carlewms]

Thanks for the posts ... I am trying to get to the first Slick sand stage.

I have looked at the Apollo Systems and think I will go the same route. I also do furniture so it fits better into post paint hobbies.

Where did you source the Apollo System?

Eastwood sells their branded system which appears to be the same Apollo for $1300.

Thanks,

Carl

[DaveS53]

The best tool I found for setting body panel gaps is 1/8" thick neoprene rubber that's like gasket material. I bought 20' of it to use between the body and chassis of my car, then figured out the I really needed 3/32", so I had a lot of it left over.

The rubber won't scratch if used for making adjustments to the fit, after paint. If you want just a little thicker gage, add 1 or 2 layers of masking tape.

IMO, 3/16" it too wide for most gaps.

A 9/64" drill bit might also work. Use the end that goes in the drill, as a plug gage.

[mcwho]

PeteH
Can you give me more info on which turbine system that you used? This is a new direction for me but I am interestd.

[Jeff Kleiner]

IMO, 3/16" it too wide for most gaps.



Not prior to high build primer, paint and clear.

Jeff

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks for the posts ... I am trying to get to the first Slick sand stage.

I have looked at the Apollo Systems and think I will go the same route. I also do furniture so it fits better into post paint hobbies.

Where did you source the Apollo System?

Eastwood sells their branded system which appears to be the same Apollo for $1300.

Thanks,

Carl

Carl,

I am glad this is helpful. Well, it probably is not helpful in terms of providing new ground breaking information, but if it is motivational then your welcome. I am certainly not an expert and this is a learning experience for me. I just appreciate all those that chime in and provide guidance when needed. I started this thread to hopefully help someone in a similar position who is nervous about tackling something like this. I also wanted to document my progress so I could look back and reminisce from time to time.

I bought the turbine system from ADV Machinery. I saw the Eastwood machine but this place offered a few more options including needle and nozzle sets. I think the price ends up being about the same. https://www.advmachinery.com/pages/apollo

Pic of the gun. I don't know how it works but it looks cool.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69245&d=1498086356

As you can see, I went ahead and bought a comprehensive needle and nozzle set.

I have never painted a car and for that matter anything with an HVLP style gun. I will try and take some video/pics when I start using it.

[carlewms]

Thanks for the information ... I will check them out.

[srobinsonx2]

So I have just about finished up blocking the first coat of slick sand and panel fitment. A few more minor items to complete and then I will pull the body back off the chassis (hopefully for the last time before it is painted) and get ready for another coat of slick sand. I also picked up some more Slick Sand and Primer Surfacer today. On the first coat of Slick Sand I applied one full gallon. That allowed me to apply just over 2 full coats. I figured to get 3 full coats I will need a little over 1 1/2 gallons. I will document my total amount used once I get it applied. I also decided on what type of primer surfacer. I am going to use a PPG product called JP202. It is a gray 2K Urethane primer. It's mix ratio is 4:1:1. Four parts primer to 1 parts hardener and 1 part reducer. This product allows me to pick a hardener and reducer for the temperature I will be spraying. Since I live in San Antonio I got the hardener and reducer for 85 degrees. I plan on spraying in the morning but it gets hot pretty quick.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69300&d=1498185366

Now before everyone comments on the amount of primer I bought, I think I bought to much. But, I did so for a reason. Logically I can't imagine I will need 3 gallons for 3 coats. But, when I reviewed the tech sheets for Slick Sand to see how much coverage it provides, I saw it will cover 1200 sq ft. The JP202 will only cover about 540 sq ft. So, I would need twice as much. Didn't make sense but the shop said they would take back any unused primer, so no real risk for me. I would rather have what I need and return what I don't than run short on a Saturday when the shop is closed.

Here is comparison between the tech sheets. Let me know if I have missed something.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69299&d=1498185364

I also did some minor work on my panel holders and body buck. I moved the bottom braces on the body buck to the inside of the legs. They were kind of in the way when I tried to spray primer on the bottom lips. I also made the door holder a little wider. It was tough to get between the doors with my first set up. I just added a longer piece of square tubing and also added a small block to move the square tubing away from the vertical frame.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69298&d=1498185363

I also mocked up the stripes on the hood and scoop area to make sure everything looked pretty square. A real rough mock up but I stared at it for a while and it looked good to me. Let me know if something looks off. You can also see the laser line I used to get the center stripe straight.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69297&d=1498185361

[boat737]

I know it's just a mock-up, and maybe it's the camera angle, but the DS stripe looks narrower than the PS stirpe (at the radiator intake).

I wish I had your energy. Keep it up.

[RoadRacer]

It looks like the DS stripe is nearer center at the front than the PS, do they measure the same?

[srobinsonx2]

Boat737 and Roadracer,

Man. You guys have eagle eyes. It was off by exactly one inch. Embarrassing move on my part. I was using a measuring trick i learned from my Dad. He was a carpenter and always made me use the 1 inch mark as my starting point when measurung from a mark (instead of the end of the tape like you would normally do on a hard edge). He said it could be more accurate. Well, that is only true if you don't forget to add an inch on the other end of the tape. :o

I was so worried about how the stripe was laying out on the scoop i didnt notice it.

Thanks for keeping my straight.

[boat737]

Boat737 and Roadracer,

Man. You guys have eagle eyes. It was off by exactly one inch. Embarrassing move on my part. I was using a measuring trick i learned from my Dad. He was a carpenter and always made me use the 1 inch mark as my starting point when measurung from a mark (instead of the end of the tape like you would normally do on a hard edge). He said it could be more accurate. Well, that is only true if you don't forget to add an inch on the other end of the tape. :o

I was so worried about how the stripe was laying out on the scoop i didnt notice it.

Thanks for keeping my straight.

Sorta like the saying, "I've cut it 3 times and it's still too short." Good to work out the mental gymnastics now, and not during the final layout. I know what you mean about using the 1 inch mark as the starting point. I use it with tape measures, but for the really fine stuff, I use a 6" or 12" machinist's scale measuring from the end.

Just curious, are you going to taper the stripes slightly at the front and rear? From what I read, some do, and some don't.

[PeteH]

PeteH
Can you give me more info on which turbine system that you used? This is a new direction for me but I am interestd.

My apologies for late response Bob, haven't looked at this thread in awhile. Too busy sanding! The one I used was over 20 yrs old, I don't remember the brand, I'll have to ask the guy who owns it.

[srobinsonx2]

boat737,

I plan on using a taper. I found a pattern in the following link on post #4.

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/420978-hood-scoop-lines-layout-advice.html

[srobinsonx2]

boat737,

I plan on using a taper. I found a pattern in the following link on post #4.

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/420978-hood-scoop-lines-layout-advice.html

Forgot to mention, I have found a number of patterns that differ slightly. Some have a 6 inch stripe width at the front and some (like mine) have 6.75 inch. Not sure if one is better than the other. I wonder which pattern is the most popular.

[phileas_fogg]

Forgot to mention, I have found a number of patterns that differ slightly. Some have a 6 inch stripe width at the front and some (like mine) have 6.75 inch. Not sure if one is better than the other. I wonder which pattern is the most popular.

Unless you've got a specific CSX you're trying to copy, go with what your eye says is best.

[srobinsonx2]

Week 9 has ended and I have logged 96 hours so far on the bodywork. I was able to get the second application of Slick Sand completed yesterday....whew. Worked 13 hours and boy was it a long day. It started with some minor sanding and clean up. It was suppose to rain so I decided to set up the garage and spray inside. Cleaned the garage, laid down some rosin paper, and hung plastic. It was certainly easier to spray outside but I thought this would be a good trial for future urethane surfacer and paint. Here is what I learned.

1. My two stale garage is pretty small to spray everything at once. I got it done but things are too close to spray paint and risk touching something
2. I need more light. I have one overhead fluorescent light, a bright work lamp and two 4 foot fluorescent shop lights that I can move around. I need probably 2 or 3 more to shine on all sides.
3. I put up some thin plastic to keep the primer off my walls. It was too thin (0.3 mils) and would move around with any light breeze. I think that will be a problem in paint. I am going to try some thicker material and may even use some poly backed cloth for paint. Any suggestion would be helpful.
4. I was able to work on my spraying technique. It is getting better but having another primer-surfacer to spray will help.
5. I used the large PPS cups (28 oz) for this application. Too big during hot temps. Two batches started setting before I got done.

Sorry I didn't take any pictures. I got everything set up and started spraying around 8 PM. By the time I got done it was almost 11 PM. I was tired and called it a day.

My next task is going to be filling pin holes and small imperfections. I thought I had gotten these resolved but somehow I missed a few obviously. I plan on picking up some glazing putty tomorrow and fill these in prior to blocking everything with 220 grit. Here are some pictures of the imperfections. They look obvious now. Not sure what I was doing.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69384&d=1498435371

This picture is of the front of the driver side opening on the body.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69386&d=1498435442

I assume once I apply the glazing putty I can apply the primer surfacer right on top. Do I need to spray another coat of slick sand on those areas first?

Hopefully I get everything sanded and preped this coming week. I would like to spray my urethane primer surfacer next weekend. I plan on taking off Monday before July 4th. That will give me Monday and Tuesday to sand the surfacer with 320 grit and then wet sand with 600.

I will keep plugging along. Thanks for all the help. I couldn't have gotten this far without help from the forum.

[Boydster]

I think what you've done, the research, the hours, the bravito to have a go at it... is amazing. I just know this car is going to look fantastic.

[srobinsonx2]

I think what you've done, the research, the hours, the bravito to have a go at it... is amazing. I just know this car is going to look fantastic.

Thanks for the kind words. I hope it looks good. Even if it had a flaw or two, I will still have something i built entirely on my own. Well, I did the work. This group gets most of the credit. With out thier help I could not have taken this on.

[srobinsonx2]

I will give a quick update in just a minute. First I have a question. I had some pin holes/small areas that needed some work. I applied some glazing putty, let it dry, and tested blocking with 220 grit. The glazing putty seemed to sand about as easy as the Slick Sand. Around the driver side door I made a few strokes and uncovered gel coat. Obviously I didn't get very good coverage on this area when spraying the second coat of slick sand. I am not sure what happened. My question is, can I spot spray Slick Sand on the areas that have some burn through and then block those areas? Or do I need to put on another full 3 coats again? Here is pic of the area in question. If you look closely you can see a little rage gold showing through on the top, right next to the windshield cut out. What do you think? I am hoping i can just spray the 2K urethane to cover this up but I don't want to take a short cut and regret it.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69444&d=1498525440

So, I did pick up some glazing putty today. I got Evercoat Metal Glaze. I also got some little metal spreaders that worked great. My glazing putty set up about as fast as rage gold but is much easier to spread and certainly fills little holes much better. Here are my tools and product.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69442&d=1498525382

I also got a paint pen made for bodywork. It was kind of a PITA and I won't be using it again. I went around the hole car with a light and my pen. Marked all the areas that need some putty. Well, I needed acetone to get the paint off. Really not worth it in my opinion.

Will carry on with blocking everything to 220 and applying Glazing putty where needed. Any advice on the burn through would be greatly appreciated.

[Jeff Kleiner]

You can spot in SS but if you are going to lay sealer over everything and are satisfied with the shape of the burn through area it is not necessary.

Jeff

[j.miller]

No need to spot in with SS, go to the Shop Line 2K. spray with a 1.7- 1.8 cap....I mix 4,1,1.5 and wait a little longer between coats ( till you see the flash off). By now you should have "all" your pin holes and rippers filled. Not that a few more won't show up but it's best to get ahead of the game. You can spray an extra shot of material on your burn through if you want....da at

[srobinsonx2]

Still sanding:). I am starting to get in the groove. Tired of cleaning up all the dust each day but seeing the guide coat disappear has a certain satisfaction. Don't get me wrong. I don't love it that much. Ready to move onto the 2k urethane and then paint. But first things first. I need to get this thing perfect before moving on.

One question/concern. I have now sprayed two coats of slick sand. I have noticed on both coats I have four areas where I have struggled to get good coverage. The body openings (hood, trunk, and doors), rolled edges of the cockpit, wheel wells, and nose openings. It just gives me some concern about my spraying technique. I tried really hard on the second application of slick sand to get good coverage on these "problem" areas. I considered that the slick sand might be really thick and hard to get coverage on these areas. Hopefully the 2k urethane will flow better than the slick sand. The slick sand seemed to only stick to the body when I was able to apply the material at a 90 degree angle. These areas were hard to get to. Any advice? I have considered spraying these areas first. For example, on the cockpit I thought about getting "inside" the body and spraying from a better angle. I can then get out and not worry about contact with he body. Thoughts? Maybe I am worried about nothing if the 2K urethane surfacer and paint flow or spread out better. Here are some pictures of the areas.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69543&d=1498703938

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69542&d=1498703938

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69539&d=1498703825

Here is the progress so far. The front half is done and I have sanded about 4 hours. It has taken me about 6 hours to block the entire body and that looks like what this round will take.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69541&d=1498703826

Thanks for the continued help.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Hard to describe technique but I can tell you this; I stand inside the cockpit and inside the hood opening turning all the way around to get those areas. I basically lay on the ground to hit the lower body such as the rockers along the sides, the rear valance and the front nose. You have to spray up and into the wheel openings, etc. making the same arc with your gun That's about all I got---good luck!

Jeff

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks Jeff. I really appreciate the feedback. I will do exactly as you suggest and get inside the cockpit and hood opening to spray. In my last post you can see I have a piece of plywood used for structure between the front and rear panels of the body buck. I used a really well done body buck plan I found before I even started the build. Now that I have done the mechanical and bodywork, I would have built it a little differently. I will modify/remove this center support so I will have easy access to the cockpit and hood opening. I might could fit in there but I don't want to risk accidentally touching a freshly painted edge because I didn't take the time and make this simple mod.

I finished up blocking the main body with 220 grit tonight. Found 2 or 3 small areas that need a little glazing putty but overall it looks pretty good. I did a wet check on a few of the larger areas and it looks smooth. I wet checked it by spraying some wax and grease remover on the body. This makes the panel wet and shiny. The reflection of my garage overhead light allows me to check and see if there any minor waves. I saw this on my Paintucation video and read about on this forum. Works pretty slick.

Hopefully I can block out the hood, trunk, and doors this weekend and spray the 2K urethane by July 4th.

[srobinsonx2]

I have logged 116 hours on bodywork through week 10. I have come to a clear conclusion yesterday. I am officially tired of blocking. I mean......good lord......will the dust ever end???? Well, at least I have finished blocking the second coat of Slick Sand. I got it all blocked out and inspected everything really good. I found a few small pin holes and a couple of low areas. Everything was very minor so I filled them in with some glazing putty and sanded those areas again. So, I feel good about the body and am looking forward to spraying some 2K urethane primer surfacer. I will probably do that on the 4th since I am off work that day. Then of course one more round of blocking. Hopefully that will be the last dry sanding. I can then wet sand prior to paint.

I took the advice of JeffK and plan to get inside the cockpit and hood opening to spray those areas. I had a support that ran the entire length of the body buck and needed to do some modifications to remove that. I ran some supports to the vertical legs and a cross support. Cut out the center support and all looks good. It is also pretty stable.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69738&d=1499037702

I also have everything prepped for spraying the 2K urethane. The garage floor is covered with rosin paper, the walls are covered in plastic, and my temporary lights are hung. I sprayed the second coat of slick sand in the garage and learned a few things. I rearranged the components to provide a little more room. I also added some lights and broke out the turbine sprayer. I have not sprayed anything through it yet but I plan on testing it with some water based craft paint. I will report. Here is picture of my arrangement.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69737&d=1499037701

I will put the turbine outside when I spray. The hose is not very long. I might look into getting a longer one. Anyway, wish me luck.

[RoadRacer]

Anyway, wish me luck.

Lots of luck!!! It's amazing how much work goes into spraying a car.. I mean, you haven't even "started" spraying yet. Not sure I'll be following in you DIY footsteps :p

[edwardb]

You're making great progress. Kudos to you for tackling this. Not to discourage anyone, but the pro painter than did my last two Roadsters logged just over 170 hours for each one. That's in a professional booth with all the commercial gear and he's been painting cars for a number of years. Granted that includes all the paint and final cut/buff. But just shows these things are a lot of work. For the beginner and the pros.

The next time we have one of those "Why does the paint cost so much..." discussions I'm pointing them to your thread. :)

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks RoadRacer and edwardb. Edwardb you are right. It is alot of work. My logged hours does not include some of the body prep I did while actually building the car. I went back and added up all those hours and I think I have another 20-25 hours. That includes washing the body, applying the undercoating, trimming panels for the first time, etc. If I added those hours to the 116 of body work then I would be close to 140.

If the pros do it in 170 I seriously doubt I will be any where near that number. It is taking me about 10 hours to block everything out (including panels). I assume I have one dry sanding effort and one wet sanding effort left to perform prior to paint. That would be another 20 hours. Prep for paint will probably take a good 6-8 hours (wash, degrease, acetone, tack). I am guessing on paint, but based on other posts here, painting is a good long day. I assume 12-15 hours. Just to get color on this thing will get me all the way up 180 hours. If wet sanding during cut and buff takes the same time as blocking then I am looking at another 30-40 hours. That would get me to 210-220 hours. That is assuming I don't have any issues during paint that need correcting.

I am a little over half way with a lot of work still left. Things do seem to get easier as I go along. Rage Gold sands easier than gelcoat, Slick Sand sands easier than Rage Gold, and hopefully 2K urethane sprays easier, etc. It is just hot dirty dusty work. It is doable and if I squint real hard I think I can see a faint light at the end of this dark dusty tunnel. Of course it could just be dust in my eye. Do yo see that pattern here....dust, dust, and more dust.

I will keep the faith and trudge along. Hopefully tomorrow I will have some pictures of the car in 2K gray glory.

[edwardb]

That 170 hours I mentioned was just pure body work and paint. In both cases I delivered the car body mounted and fitted to the chassis, panels all set, gapped, etc. That was also a pretty high end paint job. I've seen others cite fewer hours. My point was these are a lot of work even for the pros. You're doing great!

[srobinsonx2]

Well, DANG! No 2K primer tomorrow. I tested out my Apollo spray system this afternoon. I am glad I did. The PPS system I have will not allow me to spray upside down. If you aren't familiar, the PPS system is made by 3M and is suppose to allow you to spray from any position, even upside down. This was new to me and I thought it would allow an inexperienced "want to be painter" a little more flexibility. With my conventional compressor gun (cheap Vapor primer gun) this worked flawlessly. I filled and mixed Slick Sand in the cup, connected it to the gun, held the gun upside down, and pulled the trigger. This would evacuate all the air from the liner and leave nothing but material. The gun essentially was pulling a vacuum on the liner which would get sucked in. Worked real slick.

It did not work so well with the Apollo Atomizer 7500. I tested the gun with some water based craft paint from Walmart. I diluted the paint a little, filled the PPS liner, connected to the gun, turned the turbine on, held the gun upside down and squeezed the trigger. The liner did not get sucked in like before. It kind of felt like it actually had a little pressure. The bottom of the PPS cup has a hole where I could feel the liner kind of pressured up. It would spray fine if the gun was held upright. Puzzled as to why the PPS cup was not working like before, I first thought I had reassembled the gun wrong after cleaning it prior to use. Well, after consulting the manual I was confident I had the thing put back together correctly. I tried the gravity feed cup that came with the spray gun just for grins. It worked about like the PPS cup. Sprayed good upright but no go upside down and actually leaked out of the top of the cup a little.

I cleaned the gun and then regrouped. After some research it appears the turbine style guns need a type H/O PPS cup. This PPS cup actually uses a little hose from the gun to supply pressure inside the cup and compress the liner. I am not sure if this pressure take off is standard on all guns but the turbine guns apparently all have a small fitting on the side of the gun that allows pressure to be supplied to pressure cups when necessary. I jumped on Amazon and found a large type H/O cup. It will be here Thursday so the 2K primer will have to wait. I could probably try and spray with the gravity cup that came with the gun but the areas that I need to spray upside down are already hard to get too. I will just wait for the right tools. I am a little frustrated but rather do this right the first time and not rush things.

When the new PPS pressure cup shows up, I will test it again. I know there are a few guys out there interesting in how the system works so I will report back.

[srobinsonx2]

I found this online at www.woodessence.com.

"Turbine HVLP Spray systems such as Kremlin/Apollo, Fuji and others typically do not benefit from the venturi effect to create a vacuum that will draw fluid from the collapsible liner. These systems often require a pressurized cup to force fluid to the spray nozzle. 3M offers H/O Pressurized Cups for these systems and other applications where pressure feed is helpful.

H/O Pressure Cups are available only in the Mini or the Large size and are fabricated from rigid plastic and include a full coverage lid/collar assembly. An integrated pressure relief valve is built into these cups and they include a rubber pressure tube to connect to the Spray Gun pressure port.

H/O Pressure Cups utilize the standard lids/liners that are used with the gravity/siphon feed cups."

[j.miller]

Brother , In 600+ cars I have never turned my gun upside down....bend your wrist, figure it out. You have come a very long way and you are doing good,,,,wish I had kept closer tabs. Correct me if I'm wrong but were you spraying your slick sand in a single coat then blocking ? Ok, I know you're past that part but iffin you were.....spray your urethane in three continuous coats with 8-10 mins flash between. You should be able to 3 coat everything with one gallon. It goes on thinner, smoother and faster then SS....and don't put prepsol on anything from here on out. When I shoot my hood jambs I turn my fan off and shoot the opposite side of the hood opening. Climbing is all good till you catch your toe on the door jamb and go arse over elbow t the ground......and don't climb through the wheel well , you need to stay as clean as possible when you paint, so now is a good time to practice the "art of the fan reduction cross opening Bat spray technique". Happy Fourth Brother ! da Bat

[srobinsonx2]

Brother , In 600+ cars I have never turned my gun upside down....bend your wrist, figure it out. You have come a very long way and you are doing good,,,,wish I had kept closer tabs. Correct me if I'm wrong but were you spraying your slick sand in a single coat then blocking ? Ok, I know you're past that part but iffin you were.....spray your urethane in three continuous coats with 8-10 mins flash between. You should be able to 3 coat everything with one gallon. It goes on thinner, smoother and faster then SS....and don't put prepsol on anything from here on out. When I shoot my hood jambs I turn my fan off and shoot the opposite side of the hood opening. Climbing is all good till you catch your toe on the door jamb and go arse over elbow t the ground......and don't climb through the wheel well , you need to stay as clean as possible when you paint, so now is a good time to practice the "art of the fan reduction cross opening Bat spray technique". Happy Fourth Brother ! da Bat

Thanks a bunch. I really appreciate the input and expert advice. When I say spraying upside down, I actually mean at an angle like the wheel wells or under the rolled edge of the cockpit. How do you spray those without the material running to the other end of the cup?

To answer the slick sand question, I sprayed 3 coats each time. Like you said, I sprayed one coat, waited 10 minutes, then sprayed another coat. I put on a gallon in the first session then blocked with 180 grit. The second round of put on about a gallon and a half. Then blocked it with 220. That is where I am now. Does that sound about right?

I am not using prepsol but I am using a wax and grease remover which I think is essentially the same thing. Maybe I messed up but I have been using it pretty generously to "wet check" for straightness and to clean prior to apply filler, glazing putty, and slick sand. Today I wiped the whole thing down again with this product. Is there something else I should be using to clean prior to 2K and paint? Would acetone work better? It certainly would be a cleaner product and is more aggressive. Here is a picture of what I am using. I got it from the supply house where I am buying my products.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69799&d=1499135210

When you say fan reduction, I assume you mean instead of a big fan, you reduce the spray down to a circle pattern. That is a pretty nifty idea. I was worried about getting inside the car. You can actually reach across the entire hood opening that way? I will try that.

Thanks a bunch J.Miller. I know you don't have to help us amateurs but your insights and expertise is greatly appreciated. Happy 4th to you too.

[j.miller]

Soooo, yes, big fan turned down to straight shooting across the opening ( This is a good time to practice). Getting product to stick to edges... get in close (like 4in") . Edges are like airplane wing and the air sheers around them pulling your material with it. To shoot your edges your gun never goes inverted. there is enough paint in the head of the gun to siphone as your gun goes sideways. For shootin the backsides of the wheel well....play with the gun and figure it out (I undercoat our wheel wells out to the edge so I don't have that problem). If you use any "prepsol" it's at the beginning of a job to remove ...well..wax and grease ! It is a solvent and should never be wiped over primer. Primer is porous and the solvent is a great vehicle to embed contamination. If you should happen to get grease or oil on a primer surface wash it with water and a little soap and then sand it clean. (just don't get grease or oil on it and life is better) . To clean before coating..the best way is to go over the surfaces with a gray Scotchbrite in one hand and an air blower in the others. Scotchbrite loosens the debri and the air moves it off the car. (that's actually good enough for priming) but If you want to be sure you can go over it with a yellow tack rag. Stop wet checking ! You can feel 5 times more then you can see. A good trick is to use a thin towel (like Scott Shop Towels) (Home Depot, Pep Boys, Kragen...etc) between your hand and the surface to help you find the rough spots. I would venture a guess that you are good to go after 2 rounds of SS. There is some forgiveness in these bodies due to all the curves......LOAD THAT GUN AND BLOW SOME MATERIAL BROTHER !! da Bat.......whatever ratio your primer says to mix...bump up the reducer15-20%...if its over 80 degrees try to only mix enough to do one coat at a time....If the primer starts to thicken, dump it (no savin it). If you mix a new batch and you have some left from the last round, don't cross mix them. Just put the new on top of the old in the gun and shoot. (cataylzed products start a much faster chain reaction when added to new stuff. if you had twenty minutes....now you have ten).....best of luck!!

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks Jeff for keeping me headed in the right direction. I will pick up some of the gray scotch brite pads and use your method to clean prior to the 2K urethane. Once the 2K urethane is on I will block with 360 grit followed by wet sanding with 600 grit. Can I then wash the car with dawn dish soap real good? Maybe a couple of times. Will that get the car clean enough for paint? I have watched a few videos (Paintucation by Kevin Tetz being the most notable) and they recommend the wash followed by some type of solvent wipe down. In the Paintucation he used a spray foaming glass cleaner, followed by wax and grease remover, and finally wiped everything down with 70% isopropyl alcohol. It sounds like you recommend just the wash with water. I like your idea of not using a solvent. I can see how solvents could get trapped or even work material into the primer. Plus your method sounds easier :D

The 2K will have to wait until next weekend when I can get an early morning start. I didn't read your post until late in the morning and it is too hot here is "Ol' San Antone" to get suited up in a Tyvek suit for 4 or 5 hours. And I have to go back to my day job, which pays for this crazy project, the rest of the week. I have a few small things I can work on the next few evenings after work. I am going to use Edwardb's side vent mounting technique so I can get those base studs installed. I can also start scoping out the foot box vents I plan to add.

Thanks again for the guidance and support. With help from ya'll, I might actually have a nice looking vehicle.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Listen to what Batty says about cleaners at this stage (in fact listen to everything he says about prep and paint...nevermind the other stuff he rambles about...thats just the solvent fumes talkin'). I had the remnants of some wax & grease cleaner pop up on me once when I started laying base on a trunk lid---never again.

Good luck,
Jeff

[j.miller]

yes, when you're done a whole lotta water and an itty bitty bit of soap. Make sure you spray the underside of body and the buck to get the dust out. Any drying in my shop is done with the paper Shop Towels. Those are the only towels in my shop from start to finish. The reason for that is cross contamination....you never know what a cloth towel will drag around or if it has a burr in it. If you drop a paper towel on the floor....in the trash it goes. We use them to dry, clean up after buffing, washing and glazing....everything....just a way to eliminate one more chance for something to go wrong. Couple things, 1. don't paint with a compressor that blows oil (you can check your air by putting a clean white cloth over an air nozzle for 30 seconds to see if it leaves any residue). C.No WD-40 or other silicone products in the shop. 4. Try to keep your bare hands off the prepped surface, and finaly...."26" (see other posts on other threads)(or skip "26" altogether) this was the part Kleiner was saying not to pay attention to;)...da bat

[srobinsonx2]

Well, I plan to get up early in the morning and spray the 2K. Hopefully this will be the last primer application before paint. Based on the sage advice of JeffK and JeffM, no more solvents to clean the car. I gave the car a whole week to flash off any solvents that might be trapped. Hopefully that minimizes the risk of issues down the road. I wiped the car down with a tack rag and will do one final tack rag wipe in the morning before spraying.

If you read my earlier posts, you saw I am using a turbine spray system by Apollo. The cup I had didn't allow angles other than just about vertical. Jeff Miller said I should be able to spray without having to hold the gun upside down. I did a couple of dry runs this week after work to practice. While pretending moving around I did find he was right. I can make it happen. Since I had to wait anyway and I had already ordered the H/O type PPS cup, I figured that I not only have better technique but I also have some equipment that will allow me some room for error. The new PPS cup came in Thursday and I tested it out. It worked great. Here is a comparison of the old cup and new. This is the large size if anyone cares.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69956&d=1499477944

The set up was easy. Just use the PPS cup like normal but connect the pressure port from the side of the gun to the bottom of the pressure cup. I tested it with water this time. IF you hold the gun upside down and pull the trigger, the air in the liner will be evacuated and the system will function just like a traditional spray gun system. Picture of the gun during the test.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69957&d=1499477955

Hopefully I will have good reports on how the system sprays tomorrow. Now keep in mind I only have a $30 Vaper primer gun to compare too and no prior experience so I am certainly not an expert. But, I will report how it turned out for a newbie.

On the safety front I have a Tyvek suit with boots and hood, a full face respirator, and some good gloves. Two box fans set up for positive pressure ventilation should provide good air flow. Feeling good about my protection

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69959&d=1499477974

Here is the garage all set up.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69958&d=1499477964

Its a little cramped but I have played with the set up and this is about as good as it is going to get. Wish me luck

[RoadRacer]

SO MUCH LUCK! Sending good vibes - can't wait to see it at the local cars n coffee soon :D

[squareback]

Waiting to see the results here...

[jrcuz]

Are you done yet, how'd you do?
JR

[Boydster]

What time should I drop off mine?

[srobinsonx2]

Well, the 2K urethane primer surfacer is applied and I with no "major" issues.

Boydster,

Before you load up your car and head to San Antonio, you might want to check out some of the issues below. I am by no means a professional and with each application I learn something new. And by learn something new, I mean I screw up and figure it out the hard way.

I just got finished. Started spraying about 5:30 AM and finished about 9:00 AM which included clean up. I sprayed 1 1/3 gallons of JP202. I had a few observations and some learnings. Observations first:

1. This material and gun set up sprayed much smoother, faster, and layed down more material than the primer gun and Slick Sand. It might be a combination of both. I was using the 1.8mm tip as J.Miller suggested. I had the flow adjustment (needle) turned out two full turns. I mixed the ratio 4:1:1.5 as well like Jeff said. I had to move the gun a lot faster and could cover more surface with one pass than with the slick sand. With this material I am was able to apply it with a 50% overlap. The Slick Sand I had to do more like a 70% overlap.
2. This product flows out better, which to this amateur means less orange peel.
3. 1 1/3 gallons allowed my to apply 4 coats. The spec sheet says a wet coat. I took that to mean apply it until just before it runs. You can see below I got carried away in a couple of spots. Hopefully these sand out easily. They of course are right on the little knob of the back passenger side. We will see what I can do with that.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69974&d=1499524074

Now for the learnings and for me the more important part:

1. I sweat like a virgin at a prison rodeo. Well, that is not the learning, I already knew that. What I didn't know was even with the Tyvek suit, sweat can still drip down your arm and onto the panel you just painted or was about to paint. I will need to do something about this. I am going to get some wrist bands to wear under my sleeves and hopefully absorb the sweat. I will also tape my sleeves for extra protection. I had two or three spots that got water on the panel after I sprayed. I just left them alone and will see what happens when I block them out. Here are a couple of examples:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69976&d=1499524098

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69975&d=1499524082

I also see I missed a pin hole on that second picture. That's nice.

2. I think I should spray "with" the air flow in my home made booth. Today I sprayed against the flow. I started at the back of the car and move towards the front. The fans were blowing from front to back. This caused overspray (fine dust) to settle on the surface I just sprayed. Is it correct to go with the flow?

3. I will need to wet the floor down for the actual painting. The overspray dries on the rosin paper and becomes essentially dust. That won't work for paint and clear.

4. The "art of the fan reduction cross opening Bat spray technique" worked pretty good. I am probably not as effective as the inventor but we will see how I did when I start blocking. I didn't even get a run in that area.

5. The PPS cups are the way to go. I was able to mix up a new batch and not even clean the gun between batches. With the large size (28 oz), I was able to spray everything with about 2 full cups. That should help me judge how much base and clear to get

Let me know if I messed up anywhere. Helpful criticism is appreciated.

[Straversi]

This is my favorite TV show. Can't wait for the next episode. Seriously, this is an amazing thread. You are helping so many current and future builders determine if they have the time, patience, facility, skill and resiliency to paint their own car. You are doing a great job and and even better job of documenting the learning curve.

My hats off to the pros who have been riding shotgun. Your support for the community is awesome and even though you are giving away years of experience, I'm sure you are gaining many future customers.

Keep going brother. Can't wait to see the end result.
-Steve

[phileas_fogg]

What Steve said. You & the Jeffs are certainly adding to the body of knowledge (pun intended) here on the forum. Kudos to you!


John


This is my favorite TV show. Can't wait for the next episode. Seriously, this is an amazing thread. You are helping so many current and future builders determine if they have the time, patience, facility, skill and resiliency to paint their own car. You are doing a great job and and even better job of documenting the learning curve.

My hats off to the pros who have been riding shotgun. Your support for the community is awesome and even though you are giving away years of experience, I'm sure you are gaining many future customers.

Keep going brother. Can't wait to see the end result.
-Steve

[jrcuz]

Hang in there, you're doing a great job and educating us. Thanks!
JR

[j.miller]

Correct, paint with the flow....DO NOT wet the floor. Working in that tight space with a hose getting wet on the floor will be a disaster if you get a "hose whip" and sling water onto the paint.....I'll tell you how I avoid dust on the floor.....I DON'T POINT MY GUN AT THE FLOOR ! What goes on the floor stays on the floor....when you spray your clear it will stick it to the floor...da bat

[srobinsonx2]

Sorry for two posts in one day. But wanted to thank everyone for the kind words and encouragement. Thanks Jeff. I will paint "with the flow" next time.

I just went out and checked my work now that it has had time to dry. I noticed what I think is overspray on all the horizontal services. All of the horizontal surfaces (top of the car, hood, etc) is rough feeling. All of the vertical surfaces are smooth. It appears to be overspray that has settled on the these horizontal areas. I think it is the order/direction (counter flow)in which is sprayed, just not sure. I am using the high temp hardener and the slow reducer to combat the hot Texas temps. It was probably 75 F when I started spraying and 80-85 by the time I got done. Since the vertical surfaces are smooth I am hoping I can do like Miller says and avoid this problem when I paint.

I will try and do some blocking tomorrow to see how the different areas turn out. I plan to use 320 grit and sand things dry with my flexible blocks like I have done on the previous sanding rounds. I will also use my dry guide coat unless you guys think that is a mistake. I could probably get by without the guide coat but it sure makes it easy to see the low areas and not miss something.

I will report back.

[srobinsonx2]

I got up this morning and blocked out the panels (doors, hood, and trunk lid) with 320 grit. I thought I had purchased 350 but I think what I have will do. The 2K sands easy but certainly does clog the paper easily. The overspray I mentioned in my previous posts sanded off easily. I was also able to sand out the three spots where my sweat dripped onto the primer. I was then only left to smooth out the orange peel. It is hard to see but below is a picture of what I typically got for smoothness on the 2K application. This level of orange peel was pretty much everywhere.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70032&d=1499621139

I took the above picture after I remove about half of what was needed to get it smooth. For the clogging issue I used a small air nozzle on my compressor to blow the clogged material out of the paper. Everything went smoothly except I found one additional pin hole and had burn through on a couple of edges. Here is a picture of the burn through on the hood.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70033&d=1499621147

I really didn't want to get the 2K back out, suit up, and dirty up the gun. After sanding all the panels I decided I was just being lazy and should probably spot spray some 2K to do it right. I got everything all set up, blew off the dust, tag rag (NO SOLVENT USED AT ALL) and mixed up a small batch of 2K. I turned the fan down about half way, reduced the fluid flow to about 1 full turn open and applied 3 coats to just those small areas with burn through. Oh, before all this, I also put some glazing putty on the pin hole, let that dry then sanded. Covered that with 2K as well.

I am going to let that touch up 2K dry and get those panels cleaned up (hopefully this afternoon when it cools off a little).

I will start on the body this week and hopefully get everything cleaned up and prep next weekend. That means, if all goes well, I can spray some color in two weeks.

As usual let me know if you see anything I have done wrong.

[carlewms]

Fantastic thread ... learning a boat load from this one ...

[Jeff Kleiner]

... For the clogging issue I used a small air nozzle on my compressor to blow the clogged material out of the paper...

Keep a fine wire brush on you and run it across the paper a couple of times as it begins to load up.

Jeff

[j.miller]

A fine wire brush works , myself, I prefer a piece of Scotch Brite......or a shot of scotch (I get those two mixed up sometimes)...Your air works as well. If you keep the scotch near where you are sanding you can just make one swipe across the pad and keep bustin primer (saves a little time) , then a shot of scotch:p...your dry guide is just fine.....don't worry about the burn throughs on the edge the sealer will handle that. Only burn throughs you need to concern yourself with are if they have exposed filler. You can suit up every time you spray or you can do what I do....I don't wear shoot suits for the very reasons you talked about earlier.....They're lucky if they can get the cigarette out of my mouth while I'm painting !;)...da bat

[srobinsonx2]

I got some work done this week. 16 hours logged. So far I have put 134 hours into the body work.

Thanks JKleiner and JMiller. I have a small wire brush I will try out tomorrow. I also like the scotch idea......both the pad and a good single malt. That might make the sanding much more enjoyable.

So on the burn through, I wasn't going to spray sealer. I thought I could just spray right on top of the 2K. Is that not recommended? What does a sealer provide that a primer surfacer does not?

[srobinsonx2]

Sounds like maybe the experts recommend a sealer. True? I did some research and found a PPG product, JP335. It is a 2K urethane sealer. It is mixed 4:1:1. I don't really know the difference between a primer surfacer and a sealer but from my research it sounds like the sealer is just used to........well....seal. It appears to help with basecoat coverage and in my case some burn through. It sounds like the sealer won't absorb as much of the base coat color and since the sealer is cheaper than base coat it might save a little money. I was hoping I was getting close to paint but if the experts confirm I need a sealer then I will apply a sealer.

If I do apply a sealer, what are the steps? Sand primer surfacer with 320, wet sand surfacer with 600, the apply sealer? Do I need to sand the sealer at all? According to the product sheet, a base coat can be applied to the sealer with out any sanding/scuffing within a 72 hour window. Thoughts on this approach?

Thanks in advance for the help.

So, no pictures or updates today.

[scottiec]

This is the most outstanding thread. Thanks for doing this.

[weendoggy]

If I do apply a sealer, what are the steps? Sand primer surfacer with 320, wet sand surfacer with 600, the apply sealer? Do I need to sand the sealer at all? According to the product sheet, a base coat can be applied to the sealer with out any sanding/scuffing within a 72 hour window. Thoughts on this approach?

Thanks in advance for the help.

So, no pictures or updates today.

Just got done redoing my car and yes, seal the primer before laying color. I had sanded/blocked the primer coat down to 800 before double checking for pin holes and blemishes (missed a few) and then wipe down with a tack cloth in the booth and shoot the PPG primer. You can do this and lay paint within your 72 hour window. No need to sand the sealer. You can also go around the body after shooting the sealer and touch up any blemish you still miss with putty. Apply and lay another touch of sealer over that area. If you're happy, lay the paint and continue to the finish.

[DaveS53]

Primer coats should never be sanded down to 1500. It would be rare that even 400 grit scratches would show. 600 grit certainly won't.

Thinned epoxy primer can be used as a sealer. The instructions usually say to let it sit for an hour before applying urethane top coats.

[weendoggy]

Primer coats should never be sanded down to 1500. It would be rare that even 400 grit scratches would show. 600 grit certainly won't.


Correction, sanded down to 800 on primer. Double checked with painter. It was 1500, 2000, 3000 on finish.

[j.miller]

You are on track with finish sanding with 500 if you seal/ 600 over primer. Here is the dealio with sealer. You choose a "gray tone" in the shade range of your base coat. Helps with coverage and fills scratches you may have put in with the edge of the paper. Yes you can shoot color without sanding it (it has very low fill properties). It is not "as" sensitive to contaminates so if the sealer goes on without blemishing, the basecoat will follow. If you get a prob in the sealer it only needs to flash for an hour then you can lightly sand with 600. I seal everything....then I shoot my stripe color, mask it, then lightly go over the whole body (minus stripe) with a couple pieces of 600 using half a Scotch Brite pad as a soft backer in the palm of my hand, blow it off, tack it, shoot it ! Your base coat will stick no prob to the burn throughs on glass but if there is any filler in pin holes it will reject the basecoat. If you have a color that covers real well you can spray just your burn throughs to get them started "coloring up" then shoot the whole thing. If after 2 coats you can still see where you burned through....YOUR'E SCREWED !!!.....no not really. You can go back to babysitting those areas (spot spraying) till it colors up. then give more coats till you have complete coverage,,,,then one more coat. Almost always, if you seal with the proper tone you should be covered in 3....some colors can be more transparent then others. Your supplier should be able to tell you if it has good coverage....da Bat

[slpro1207]

This is a very helpful thread. It really reinforces in my mind all of the reasons why I will have Da Bat Jeff take care my roadster. There's not enough Scotch in the world that could get me through this process. Tons of respect for those that do though. ��

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks everyone. Special thanks to Jeff Miller for the continued support to this amateur and all my silly questions. So sealer it is. I will seal after I finish blocking (320 grit) and then wet sanding (600 grit) the primer surfacer. I will follow your recipe above and continue on.

I got all the panels blocked with the 320 and will start on the body tomorrow. I also pulled up all the rosin paper and took down the plastic I used in the primer stage. Just like the body components, the floor and plastic on the walls were covered with the same dry spray/overspray dusting. I am actually glad I am going to spray sealer now. With all this overspray, I either have an equipment set up issue, lack of air movement in my home made booth, or a technique issue. It is probably a little bit of all three. I am going to remedy the air movement issue. I will pick up a big shop fan this week. My technique might be a little off as well. I might be a little too far away from the panel. I thought I was less than six inches but maybe Im getting a little further away than I think. Easy fix and I will focus on staying 4-6 inches away. I was also using a 1.8mm nozzle size with the primer surfacer. I am not sure but maybe that has something to do with the amount of overspray I got. The product sheet recommends 1.3-1.6 mm. Maybe I was just getting too much material out of the gun and it was creating some overspray. I will work on all three and see if the sealer doesn't go down better.

I will carry on. Not much exciting to show everyone. Just a lot of gray dust. I am almost done with dry sanding thank goodness. I am looking forward to trying the wet sanding. I hear it is at least not as messy. More to come.

[RoadRacer]

I have a monster portable fan if you need one. Not sure what you need but you're welcome to borrow this for the duration (it's not one I use)

[DaveS53]

Too much air velocity will make things worse. If you're spraying finish coats, any air going into a booth need some filtration, or you'll end up with dirt in the paint. I had huge amounts of over spray on the floor of my booth, particularly when painting the frame. I shot two coats of epoxy primer, followed by 2-3 coats of satin urethane. When spraying tubes, a lot of the paint is wasted, even with a narrow spray pattern.

[srobinsonx2]

Too much air velocity will make things worse. If you're spraying finish coats, any air going into a booth need some filtration, or you'll end up with dirt in the paint. I had huge amounts of over spray on the floor of my booth, particularly when painting the frame. I shot two coats of epoxy primer, followed by 2-3 coats of satin urethane. When spraying tubes, a lot of the paint is wasted, even with a narrow spray pattern.

Hmmmm. You make agood point. Having over spray on the floor doesn't really hurt. My concern was that it settled on the body and panels. It sands off really easy so I think it is over spray and not caused by me moving to fast or wrong reducer, etc. Now you have me questioning my plan. The primer coats I have sprayed are not bad. They have slight orange peel but much better than slick sand. Just the horizontal surfaces have this sandy feel.

I am using filters on my fans to stop dusty and debris.

Any thoughts? I need to get this figured out before color. A sand look is not what i am going for. :) I guess I could be a new paint technique. I'll call it the beach look.

[DaveS53]

One of the big problems with trying to paint a car in a small place, is that you can only paint a small part of the body at one time. A pro painting a fancy metallic would be sure that all of the gallons of paint were intermixed to insure the same color for all batches and spray the last coat in the same direction, so there's no chance of the main body and a door or trunk lid having a different look. That's why I would not use a metallic paint.

If you leave freshly painted panels where they will be exposed to over spray dust, it will stick to those panels. I wouldn't want colored dust stuck to the clearcoat. It will probably be removed in the color sanding process, but it's still a concern.

My body has 14 pieces that were painted no more than two at a time. The main body was all I could fit into a 10' x 17' area. I was able to take most parts to my basement the day after painting, to get the parts away from over spray. It was a slow process because some days all I did was paint one large part, like my trunk lid or hood.

I'd recommend painting only one small part like a door or trunk lid to start with and see how bad the orange peel is before proceeding with any other panel. You can color sand the part the next day. If the orange peel is too bad, you might have to sand briefly with 600-800, just to knock down the worst, before moving on to 1000 and finer grits. One tough part is trying to figure out when to switch to the next finer grit. Ideally, you'll just remove all orange peel at the 2000 grit stage. At least those scratches can be buffed out. Today's buffing compounds all claim to remove 1200 and finer scratches, but that's not what I found. Using both Maguire's and 3M's best compounds and top quality 3M foam buffing pads, only 2000 and finer scratches would come out in any reasonable amount of time. I often found a long scratch remaining after a lot of buffing and had to go over the scratch with 2500 to remove it, then finish buffing. You must clean the area with wax and grease remover before sanding with 2500 or it will clog immediately.

Note the wax and grease remover is not recommended for cleaning items just before top coats. The paint instructions will usually suggest another solvent, perhaps enamel thinner. Acetone, lacquer thinner or urethane thinner will dissolve urethane or epoxy primers that have had too little curing time. You also need special wipers to use just before the top coats. Don't risk using any sort of fabric.

[j.miller]

Gimmy a call and we'll talk about your options with garage shooting....951-676-0191

[srobinsonx2]

I have a monster portable fan if you need one. Not sure what you need but you're welcome to borrow this for the duration (it's not one I use)

Thanks RoadRacer. I talked to Jeff Miller and I think I have a good plan now. A change to my air flow in my home made garage. I am going to do a test with my existing equipment. If it doesn't work then I might hit you up. Thanks so much for the offer. This is just a great group of guys.

[srobinsonx2]

WOW!!!!! I am just blown away! Jeff Miller was nice enough to take my call this evening and we talked for about 30 minutes and he gave me some tips, tricks and recommendations on how I can approach this DIY paint project. I am just amazed as how nice and helpful he was. He paints for a living and is willing to take the time to help someone half way across the country he has never met that honestly has never done this before. Thanks again Jeff. I will have to come up with some way to repay him.

His talked inspired me and I sanded until it got dark. About halfway done with the dry sanding on the body. So a few more days and then on to wet sanding. Jeff gave me some go does before sealer and paint. I will finish sanding and complete my Miller "homework". I will post picture of the "homework" for him to critique.

This place is just awesome.......AWESOME!!!!

[srobinsonx2]

This update might be a little long so bear with me. I started on my homework assigned by Professor Miller. When I talked to Jeff this week, he suggested I get some paint and test my gun set up and technique on some poster board. So I went to my supply shop and picked up some "oops" paint. This is paint they mixed but didn't match the color perfectly. I got two pints for $15. The paint is PPG's Shopline brand. It their mid grade called JB. I plan on using the higher grade JBP but the supply store said the only difference would be the type of pigments used and this would work fine for my test. So I tried to take a methodical approach to my test. I wanted to see how the different adjustments on the gun and my technique would affect how the paint sprayed. I was focused primarily on reducing the excessive over spray I had experienced with the primer surfacer. So here is what I did. Hung some plastic and white poster board on the wall in my garage. I mixed up some paint. Like I said the paint is JB which is a 1:1 mix ratio. I used Shoplines JR507 reducer. It is their slow reducer (75-85 F). It was a little warmer than that in my garage so not sure how that affects things. I then set up the gun with a 1.5mm nozzle/needle set. Below is the first test I did with the following set up:

- 7 inches from the panel (I was more like 4" on the primers)
- Flow was set 2 full turns out
- The output level on the turbine was high
- I adjusted the fan from 100 - 0% in 25% increments

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70493&d=1500076729

The picture does not capture it well but you can see there was some considerable overspray and the length of the fan is over 13" at 100%. Non of the patterns look right so just adjusting the fan didn't help much with overspray.

I then did a second board with the flow nozzle turned down to 1 turn out. That definitely helped with overspray but still more than I expected. Per the videos on youtube, Apollo claims 85% transfer efficiency. I am not sure what the should look like but I thought maybe I could improve the amount outside the "football" shape pattern I was targeting. I then decided to do the same fan pattern test with the flow set at 1 turn out but with the turbine set on low output. Per the manual this reduces the "power" of the system by 30%. The picture below is a comparison of the first board and the board with reduce power and reduced flow.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70492&d=1500076716

It is kind of hard to see in the picture but the patterns on the left have essentially no overspray (maybe just a few small specs outside the pattern). I think the ideal setting would be the following with this paint:

1. Turbine power setting on low
2. Material flow set to 1 turn out
3. Fan pattern set to just below 50%
4. Distance from panel of 7 inches.

This gives a nice 8" fan width and much less overspray. I think I am headed in the right direction.

Here is a picture of the fan pattern at the ideal settings and two pass so I could see how thick it sprays. I had to move slower of course than I was used to with my previous set up.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70489&d=1500076678

see next post......

[srobinsonx2]

Here is a close up picture of the two different extremes when I did passes. I zoomed in to try and get a better picture of the overspray.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70491&d=1500076704

The pattern on the right is the high flow, high power, and wider fan. You can't see all the small overspray but it goes all the way to the edge of the poster board. The pattern on the left has just a slight bit right next to the pattern but the board is essentially clean all the way to the edge.

I then was pretty happy with the settings and did some spraying with the boards laying on the ground. Same results and not as big an issue with over spray. I think my set up is pretty good and I have a better feel for how the different adjustments affect the spray pattern.

I then did a vertical spray test with multiple passes. The picture below was my second such attempt. I had some difficulty keeping the gun the same 7" away and moving in smooth parallel lines with good 50% overlap on the first attempt. It was better on the second but not perfect. You can see where I got too far apart and got too close on the left hand side. I think the right looks ok. For reference, this was one coat with probably 4-5 passes at my ideal settings.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70490&d=1500076694

So let me know what you guys think. Need some honest feedback/criticism.

[j.miller]

Ok ! Turn your poster board over and do it again.....wax on , wax off....paint dee fence....sand dee floor. practice, practice. Shooting blue over white gives you an idea of coverage. Give that one 2 more coats and see if you still have streaks. You are playing with your gun settings and that is a good thing (LEARN YOUR GUN ) Gonna let you in on a little secret shh (when you start painting your car,,,,and if it's not going well,,,,you are gonna start messing with yur gun adjustments) nothing good can come from that. THE TRICK ! is to find a setting on your gun that seems to work and leave it alone. Correct the problems with "your" technique. In a nut shell... TAKE THIS RACE CAR AND GIVE ME 15 LAPS. IT'S A GOOD CAR WITH A GOOD SET UP,,,,WE'RE NOT CHANGING THE SET UP FOR YOU (cause you don't know whats good or bad) YOU LEARN TO DRIVE THE "SET UP" AND MAKE IT WORK ! Another suggestion, once you are as comfortable as you are going to get spraying paper....go next door and pa....skip that..... I see you made your flip flop's for the hood and trunk (I KNOW, YOU GOT HIS O-RINGS TOO).... consider painting the bottoms of the hood and deck first (just more practice with a little more pressure on you)....and another thing after you start to feel ok about painting flat paper (and the crowd goes ooooOOOOOoooo aaaaHHHHHaaaa) Paint your damn trash cans, they just look bad, I mean, you need to practice painting around curves and corners. Otherwise, you'll start at the back of the car, get to the front, and we'll find you standing there two weeks later , frozen, gun in hand, small child bringing you food and drink so you don't die...BECAUSE YOU GOT TO THE FRONT OF THE CAR AND REALIZED YOU DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO PAINT AROUND A CORNER !!! For the love of God man ! Don't let your children grow up without a father cause you didn't practice when you should have.......OH THE HUMANITY !!! (some say "over the top" I say "just enough"....after all, I learned my chops from Bill "some......thing.......onthewing" Shatner . One last B 4 I go. If you use the door for intake, you need to open a front door or back door so the house can breath...da Bat

[j.miller]

Another thought. Talk to your paint supplier. See if he can give you the name and # of a painter who might be willing to come over and set you up with a workable spray , flow and pressure on your gun. Many times the guys in the paint store know how to paint so one of them may be willing... the offer of a C note would be worth it to get your equipment set so you only need to worry about you......your gonna want to do a break down on your gun and get it real clean after all that primer.

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks Jeff. That is a good idea. I will try and find a painter who might be willing (given some motivation) to drop by and check out my set up. The turbine sprayer makes the pressure part of the equation simple. I really only have two settings, high and low. The gun then allows me two adjustments, the fan and the fluid flow. Other than nozzle/needle size it is all me and my technique. Having someone verify the few settings I have should help reassure me that any errors are related to my technique. I will also practice some more. The little bit of practice/gun testing I did certainly built some confidence. I have been thinking about ways I could practice painting the curves of the car. I have some ideas, and will try them out this week. I will also use a practice method I saw on my painting DVD. This method is to tape a paint brush onto the gun and practice moving over the car with just the tips of the bristles touching the body.

I still have a little blocking left to do. I have about 2/3 of the blocking complete and should be able to finish the rest up in a couple of hours of solid work. I can then move on to wet sanding. I will not miss the dust. It will be nice to get past this part. Other than wet sanding, I have a few items I want to finish up before I move onto sealer and paint. I have the driver side louver mounting studs attached to the body (Edwardb style) and need to knock out the passenger side. I also found a small pin hole on the driver side front wheel well edge. I will fill that with glazing putty before wet sanding. I will then go around and clean up all the holes in the body that are used for mounting the accessories (mirrors, roll bar bezels, hood bumpers, etc). Some have filler in them and I don't want to chance a drill around new paint. In between these tasks, I will practice some more as Jeff recommends.

I figure I have a couple of more weeks left. If anyone is interested, I have now logged 142 hours on the bodywork.

[srobinsonx2]

Well, hopefully I am finished with dry sanding. While blocking does have a certain initial satisfying appeal, the dust is never ending, annoying, gets in every crack (garage, car, even you), and eventually becomes the bane of your existence. I went over the body one more time with a hand held light and cleaned up all the small areas of orange peel I missed during my blocking effort over the past few days. I also found two small pin holes and two small uneven spots on the door jambs. I filled those with glazing putty and got them sanded down. I will check everything one more time before wet sanding with 600 grit. Here she is.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70708&d=1500343584

I also needed to knock out a few items before paint. I got the side louver mounts installed. As I mentioned earlier, I am using the method Edwardb shared in his build thread. Attached perforated base studs and 3M HSRF. Probably a little over kill but I like the idea that I can remove the louvers. It makes getting the side pipes off and on easier (at least on my car it does). Here is the rough finish. I will sand them down to make them smooth and more presentable. No one will ever see them but I want it to look nice if they do. If you are going to do it..... do it right.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70706&d=1500343565

I also picked up some sealer while I was at the supply shop picking up my oops paint. It was the last gallon of 335 they had so instead of risking a delay, I thought I would go ahead and pick it up. I certainly hope I don't need a whole gallon but it is a 4:1:1 mix ratio sealer that says I only need one coat. I figure it will take about 1/3 - 1/2 a gallon to cover all the panels and the body. If I mess up, I will have some extra.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70707&d=1500343574

I will start wet sanding this week (hopefully tomorrow after work) and will try to finish this weekend. Each round of blocking has taken a consistent 8-10 hours. I suspect wet sanding will be no different even though I will be using a small pad instead of blocks. Is this the right tool to use?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70709&d=1500344370
The sand paper says NASCAR Performance so it must be good.

I am going to try a guide coat as well as without on the under side of the trunk first. I have never wet sanded with this fine a grit so I would like to see if the guide coat helps or just makes a bigger mess. I will try and take some pictures for comparison.

I still have some homework to complete before paint (sounds like my trash cans will need a coat or two). When I practice some more on paint, I will post some updates on that as well. Getting closer. Slowly but surely.

[j.miller]

Oh ! My! god ! you are such a rookie ! First off...NEVER BUY NASCAR SANDPAPER !!! DUDE ! You can only sand to the LEFT ! So, Yes you need to use your guide coat. It will let you known when you have all the 320 scratches out. The dry guide works fine wet (I do it all the time on small parts ). Ok, I'm trying to figure out how to splaine this. You fold the paper in half and tear or cut it. Now you fold the half into 3rds (should come out about the same size as the block) DON'T USE THAT BACKING PAD !! I don't freeking care what anyone says ! Get the one with holes n it that looks like thick wet suit material. DO NOT ! fold your paper around the sanding pad ( I will pull your ears of). You place the paper on the pad and using the tip of your pinky finger wrap it under to secure the paper. With your three center finger running the length of the pad keeping even pressure. Moderate pressure, pushing hard is bad news. ( This is GOLD,,, I don't share this with just anyone) (you're lucky I'm drinking tonight) (hell, I'm lucky I'm drinking tonight ) You sand at 45* angle with 50% overlap and then reverse the angle so that you are cross cutting. When the guide coat is gone do a front to back (linier) clean up pass to smooth things over. Short strokes (8-10 in) If you do long strokes and pick up a little sompin sompin you'll put long scratches in the primer (bad news). Short strokes and pay attention to the feel and sound to avoid crap getting under your pad....lots of water to flush away primer silt ! You gotta keep it flushed or your paper is just floating on the silt (and you thought the dust was bad....just wait till you deal with the goo you are gonna make) SO ! One piece of paper (I am talking about the half piece you have folded into 3rds) will do the top of the hood. The deck lid...2 sides one left over...the nose "between the fenders" 2 sides" the cowel" (between the fenders) 2 sides. The back...around the roll bars between the fenders 3 sides....Trying to give you an idea of how often you need to turn your paper. It's only 600 for the first ten licks...then it turns to 700 then 800. You need to keep a good cut and leave an even scratch (painters call it "tooth") for the paint to grab onto.....lots of paper, lots of water "little squeeze of soap" Watch the edges of that paper as you make those left hand turns so as ya don't be gougen the primer....so much more but I put in a 17 hr day and I need to get drunk in the shower (saves time, don't need a chaser) and hit the rack. Cheers...da Bat.... damn it son,,, you get this dialed in and you can go broke working for me !

[j.miller]

You are only gonna need two qts of the sealer (2 is more then enough) Unless you are planning another paint job soon you could swap it out for quarts.....Mix that one 4:1:1.5....it will go on a lot faster then your primer so be ready to move.

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks Miller. Your a hoot. Your posts are both informative and entertaining. Double value for all those that care to read.

I ordered one of the pads you mentioned. My local shop didn't have one. Here is a link.

Motor Guard HT-1 Holey Terror Sanding Block https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003WUYG1O/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_kdHBzbH3WMP32

I was wondering if I could just use my current pad for a small test? I am impatient and Amazon next day delivery just doesn't satisfy my need for instant gratification. What about a scotch brite pad as a backing?

If not I guess I will just wait one whole day. :(

[j.miller]

Yes, I'll let you practice with the one you have. Now you will have two and be able to see which one suits you.....Left handed sand paper.....who ever heard of such a thing. Sheesh:confused:

[Jeff Kleiner]

.....Left handed sand paper.....who ever heard of such a thing. Sheesh:confused:

I've heard of rolling up some "left handed cigarettes" but that's a whole other story for a different thread ;)

Jeff

[srobinsonx2]

Sorry for the seemingly daily posts. I am sure not everyone wants to read through this thread but it is a way for me to capture my learnings while they are fresh in my mind. So I tackled two items tonight. First, was a burn through I needed to fix and the second was a test with wet sanding. First the burn through.

My Jedi Master (aka Jeff Miller or da Bat) told me that the only reason to worry about burn through on the 2K primer was if I sanded to filler. Well, I was cleaning up a glazing putty spot and found this:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70795&d=1500430217

It wasn't large but it looked a little yellow to me. Slick Sand is gray and this seemed to be some Rage Gold. I wanted to do this right so I broke out the gun and 2K and mixed up a small batch. Plus, this was another way for me to test my newly acquired gun set up skills and work a little on my spraying technique. I had spotted some 2K before on the hood and trunk and had terrible over spray. That was the sand paper feel I had described in earlier post. Since I have a better understanding of my gun, I did two things. One turned the fan down to about 25-30% open. From 4-5" away I got a 3" fan width. That seemed right for the small touch up. Secondly, I set the fluid flow to about 1/2 to 3/4 a turn open. I did some tests on my trusty poster board and I liked it. I got a little closer (4-5") and applied a medium wet coat. Here is a picture of the first coat.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70794&d=1500430206

Virtually no over spray or orange peel. I had suffered from both earlier and it seems my new set up is much better. I contribute this to my Jedi training. I am still a Padawan but at least I can turn on my light saber. After three coats, I had a really smooth application. Two hours later I blocked it out (I know, more dry sanding) and it it all fixed. I wish I had this knowledge and set up prior to spraying the 2K. It would have minimized my sanding efforts. Well, I got some exercise and hard work never killed anyone.

Now for the wet sanding test. Miller gave me the thumbs up to try my rubber sanding block. It worked but I will test my new one tomorrow. I used a guide coat on most of the trunk but left a little spot clean to see how it worked. The guide coat is much easier. It is easy to see the 320 grit scratches and when they disappear. This picture is not great but you might be able to see the remaining guide coat on the left.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70796&d=1500430227

I started sanding and before I knew it the underside of the trunk was done. This wet sanding went a lot faster and much easier than dry sanding during my earlier blocking sessions. It takes 2-3 sanding passes and the front to back stroke and I could move on. I worked in small areas and it was easy. It went so easy, I went ahead and knocked out the top of the trunk lid as well. The whole process took maybe 30 minutes. If the rest of the wet sanding goes this smooth then it won't take me 8-10 hours like the other sanding sessions. After sanding I washed the trunk off with a hose and snapped this picture. I thought it looked neat. It is so smooth. This is the first time it has looked this way. I hope the paint turns out this smooth.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70797&d=1500430236

As usual thanks for following along, let me know if you see any issues, and thanks for the continued support.

[RoadRacer]

Super valuable thread, keep it up!

if only so we can all see how crazy it is not to use a pro ;)

[Boydster]

Sorry for the seemingly daily posts. I am sure not everyone wants to read through this thread.... [clip]

I think this is one of the best threads I've read in the almost 3 years I've been here. The learning curve, the almost daily updates, the successes and issues... I cannot wait to see color on this car and see it all come together. I will drink a cheers / shot in your honor.

The other great part of this thread is the assistance given by the pros to help someone do it themselves. Outstanding.

[j.miller]

THE FORCE IS STRONG WITH THIS ONE...Yep, the 500-600 wet goes much faster. keep using the guide coat (or you won't know when you get all the scratches out) Kudos on the spray pattern and make sure you alternate your sanding pattern ....So, when you spray, Kleiner and I will set up a couple lazy boys .He'll bring the left handed (#$%@^) ...I'll bring the rum....you do the work, and we'll all be happy to be alive.....what? No !!! I said "lazy Boy" not "lady Boy"...... !!! Crap on a cracker ! you spend 20 years on a forum and they think they know you....start hearing what they "want" to hear.....You guys are bad, Bad, BAd, BAD !!;)...da Bat !!!!!!!#######

[Gromit]

srobinsonx2

Keep posting, As often as you like... This is the best active thread since edwardb finished his 20th Anniversary build.

Chris AKA Gromit

[Jeff Kleiner]

...So, when you spray, Kleiner and I will set up a couple lazy boys .He'll bring the left handed (#$%@^) ...I'll bring the rum....you do the work, and we'll all be happy to be alive.....

Now you're talkin'! This could turn out to be even better than our trip to Hawaii for at least 2 reasons...1) we don't have to do any work and B) we don't have to share a bunk with Dougherty!

Jeff

[j.miller]

Now you're talkin'! This could turn out to be even better than our trip to Hawaii for at least 2 reasons...1) we don't have to do any work and B) we don't have to share a bunk with Dougherty!

Jeff

Yeah, sharing a room with Dougherty....That guy snores louder then a Supercharged V8 Hot Saw......somewhere between 2am and 330 am that boy deforested about 500 acres of prime old growth timber :rolleyes:...got him back. I fired up mine and took out another 400;)....Haven't given up on Maui Carl just yet..now if he was "Kawai Carl" it would have been a done deal....sucks to be on the wrong island...da bat

[srobinsonx2]

You guys come on. I will supply the rum, lazy boys, and you won't even have to share a bedroom.

I finished wet sanding everything with 600 grit tonight. Took me a total of 4 1/2 hours to complete this round of sanding. That is about half of what it took to block out everything dry. Much faster and much easier. Here are the two backing pads I tried. The one of the left was the type I think Jeff Miller recommended. It is a little firmer and I like it better for the large flat areas. The only problem is was just a little too thick and I found it hard to get the paper to wrap around both edges so I could grasp them with my fingers (that is with 1/2 a sheet folded into thirds). The smaller one on the right was easier to keep the paper on the pad and had a little more give which worked nice on the curves. I struggled at first with the paper staying on the pad but found that if I could just get one side held down with a finger on the edge (pinky worked best) then the water would allow a slight suction to hold the paper to the backing pad. It is hard to explain but if you try it I think you will see what I mean.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70880&d=1500603251

I found that Jeff Miller's account of paper use was about right. It took me one and a half full sheets to do the driver side front of the car. The back driver side took one full sheet. All together I went through about about 5 sheets on just the body. The panels took another 3 sheets. I bought two packs of 10 sheets and have one full pack (unopened) and two sheets left over. That might help someone in the future as they start to buy material. I will hang onto the unopened pack in case something goes awry but hopefully won't need it and can take it back.

Here is shot of the finished product after wet sanding. I found one small pin hole I missed on my previous inspections. That guide coat really helps identify these issues. I will fill it with glazing putty and wet sand that area.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70879&d=1500603247

I just love the way it looks wet. I hope it looks that good when I finish the paint.

My next move will be to wash the body, panels, buck, and panel stands. I was planning on using a washing cloth or sponge. Something soft that won't scratch. Is that ok or should I use something like a gray scotch brite pad? I will wash it with water and just a little dishwashing soap. I will wash it twice and rinse it real good and then air dry. I will use a stiff bristle scrub brush to clean the underside of the car, the buck and the stands. I should finish that tomorrow evening of Saturday morning. I will then have he remainder of the weekend to clean the garage real good (walls, floors, garage door, etc). I will mop the floors and wipe everything down with a wet rag.

I will then practice spraying some paint. I plan on wrapping the poster board around my trash can. That will simulate the ends of the car. I will also lay a roll of plastic on the ground and lay the poster board on top of that with the edges taped down. That should simulate the humps on the car. I will practice both of these until I have good smooth coverage after three or four passes with no striping or uneven coverage. I will have the weekend and the first part of next week to get that part dialed in. Should I practice with some clear coat? Or does it spray about like the basecoat?

If all goes well, I would like to paint next weekend. I am going to work on my painting plan. I will share that in the next couple of days for input and advice. More to come. I am getting close.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...Should I practice with some clear coat? Or does it spray about like the basecoat?...



The clear is much thinner and less clingy (is that even a real term?) than base so putting a little shine on those trash cans might be some good practice. You have to keep moving quickly and steadily with it---one little pause or linger with the gun can end up in an "oh fudge...but I didn't say fudge" moment to quote Ralphie Parker. I have zero experience with turbine systems so can't offer any direction specific to your setup but will say that when shooting clear with a compressed air gun I up the pressure and give it a big ol' fan. I expect Professor Miller will fly in here with some better words of wisdom.

Yes, you are getting close and it's looking good!

Jeff

[j.miller]

You are doing great brother (oh, a compliment, should you be worried) (don't be, I give them sometimes)..Like Capt. O said, practice with the clear. It will have a different viscosity so you need to get used to it. I keep my fan about the same. I want the 8in repeatable pattern....the more you can do every step the same, the better chance at success you will have. In the past 18 years starting from roadster #1 The body and parts have always been set up in the same orientation and I have followed the same pattern of where I start and stop. I did, 2 years ago, change how I shoot the driver fender. I prime in the same sequence (ok, starting to think I'm obsessive compulsive ) Sometime in painting,,,,you forget where you are....on the car and you can either miss a section or spray one twice....doing every thing the same every times keeps me from getting lost....well that, and the nametag sewed into my Tshirts and underware....damn it....i'm commando today,,,they'll only be able to return the top half of me !!!

[j.miller]

Oh! and Kleiner...yes, clingy is a word....remember Ohio......"CLINGY" ..like that one....yeah, like to thought we would never get away fro.......oh, these guys don't need to know about that....da bat

[weendoggy]

Oh ! My! god ! you are such a rookie ! First off...NEVER BUY NASCAR SANDPAPER !!! DUDE ! You can only sand to the LEFT !

Exception: can be used twice a year, so you need to plan your body work accordingly. :)

[j.miller]

Exception: can be used twice a year, so you need to plan your body work accordingly. :)

Yep! Twice a year....Hey weendoggy, you seem to be around more these day. It's a good thing! Musta got that rash cleared up;)

[weendoggy]

Yep! Twice a year....Hey weendoggy, you seem to be around more these day. It's a good thing! Musta got that rash cleared up;)

Yeah, it's been a PITA and I've had it ever since I visited you with the Daytona Coupe. How's yours doing? :confused:

[srobinsonx2]

I will keep this PG and not comment on the rash. This could go south real quick.

In all my excitement to finish the wet sanding, I forgot to mention I did find another spot of burn through. On the front cockpit roll. Just a small spot but definitely some Rage Gold showing through. I touched that up this evening. The JP202 laid down really smooth with no overspray. Thanks again to Miller for the guidance on gun set up. It is smooth enough I think I can just wet sand and be done. I will do that in the morning then wash the body, buck and stands. The rest of my time tomorrow will be dedicated to practicing with paint and clear. I picked up a gallon of JC6700. Supposedly this is their good stuff in the Shopline category. I got the slow activator JH6720.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70902&d=1500685584

I think I have plenty and will use a little to test. I will post some pictures of the tests for critique and comments.

[srobinsonx2]

Forgot to ask my question. I am planning my painting set up/sequence and could use some guidance. As I see it I have two options.

Option 1:Put all the panels/body in my two car garage and paint everything at once. Convenient but things are tight and I am concerned about overspray, good air movement, and bumping something.

Option 2: I can paint the panels (doors, hood, trunk) and the body separately. That gives me more room and lowers the risk of overspray

I am leaning towards the two separate sessions but things get tricky and I risk dust and contact. If I do things separately Here is what I am thinking:

1. Move the body outside and set up the panels. Apply 2K sealer. One coat per the product sheet and let it flash. Does anyone apply more than one coat?
2. Spray the stripe color on the hood and trunk. I was not going to tape off the bottom. Enough coats for coverage (3-4 I hope). Let it flash good.
3. Move the panels out of the garage and roll the body in.
4. Apply 2K sealer on the body and let it flash
5. Spray the stripe color
6. Take my hood and trunk off the Kleiner flip flop apparatus and Bring them back in
7. Tape the stripes after a good flash per the product sheet.
8. Body back out side and all the panels come in. Hood and trunk back on the flip flops.
9. Spray the color on the panels followed by the required flash
10. Spray clear on the panels then move them to the front of the garage
11. Bring the body inside and spray color then clear.

Seems like an awful lot of finagling but I am concerned mostly about overspray. I know I said that seems to be solved but I only get one shot a the base color. If I mess that up I am sanding and respraying. What do you guys think here? I might try to post a layout of my garage. That might help some of you provide feedback. Let me know if I am missing something.

Thanks in advance.

[srobinsonx2]

Here is my garage layout. The airflow is per Jeff Miller's recommendation. The fans will be on the floor with the garage door shut down to their height. I will put plywood panels on each sides of the fans and on the door to the house. The house door will be open and that panel will have a hole with a filter.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70904&d=1500688621

Everything will fit inside (this is how I applied the 2K primer) but it is tight. Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

[j.miller]

I'm a firm believer in doing it all at the same time (if you feel you can move around the parts and work). The overspray from the sealer is the biggest concern.If you shoot the body first you need to cover the loose parts for sealer over spray, shoot body, uncover parts, tack off and spray. Your paint overspray shouldn't be as big of a prob. I have no advise on the clear. I haven't shot that one....I can tell you it will be thick....good luck !..da Bat

[j.miller]

Yeah, it's been a PITA and I've had it ever since I visited you with the Daytona Coupe. How's yours doing? :confused:
still got mine. Acetone on the raw skin helps with the itch but I just can't get it to....well.....you know ?...da Bat

[srobinsonx2]

I got the body and panels washed. I used just a few drops of soap in a 2 gallon bucket. Washed everything twice and let it air dry. Also got the buck and stands cleaned up. No exciting photos of the cleaning. But I did some practice painting.

I set up a painting "obstacle course".

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70912&d=1500738346

I had two flat surfaces (vertical and horizontal) as well as two curved surface.

Set up my gun like I did the other day, 1.5mm nozzle,50-60% fan, and just slightly over 1 turn out on the fluid flow (1 1/4). Put down a first coat.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70911&d=1500738345

After three coats I almost had complete coverage. It looks thinner than it is. Some of those light spots is just glare.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70910&d=1500738345

This give me an idea of how many coats and how much paint I will need. I put all three coats and a fourth on the poster board on the wall. This took about 1/2 a pint (premixed). A gallon of paint should be plenty.

Here is the fourth coat on the wall.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70909&d=1500738342

I really didn't have any issues to this point. My technique is getting better and I feel more confident. I then decided to test some clear. I mixed up just a little to spray on the poster board with 4 coats. Here is a shot after two coats and a 15 minute flash. It is pretty smooth considering the poster board is not perfect.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70908&d=1500738339

The clear is thicker. I was using the same nozzle/needle but I had to open up the fluid flow. I like what Jeff Miller said about not changing my technique. I will have a hard enough time keeping one technique in check, I don't need another to confuse things. The little extra flow allowed me to keep the same distances away and about the same pace of spraying. I noticed something a little different about the clear. When I first sparyed it, looked like it had a little "roughness" to it. But within a 3-4 seconds, it would "flow" out and become pretty smooth with a wet look. This is the first time I noticed what I think painters are calling flowability. It was pretty cool.

I have another pint of oops paint the I will practice with some more over the next few days. I will also play with my garage arrangement in preparation for paint. I will try to do as Miller says and see if I can find an arrangement that will allow me to paint everything at once.

[j.miller]

I like the fan pattern on the paper. Looks good. If you want to save room, shoot the bottoms of your hood, deck, scoop....let them dry a couple days. Get rid of the flip-flop tables and this should give you a little more space.....good practice brother;)

[srobinsonx2]

I like the idea of painting the bottoms. More practice. Do you tape the top off during that part? Would you recommend just sealing the bottom or seal it all at once and scuff up the top prior to base?

The flip flop tables take up a lot of room. just having them on stands would make my life much easier.

[j.miller]

Sooo, for me, I don't finish sand the tops till after I paint the bottom....with yours already being sanded I would say Yes, mask them. I know you have washed your parts but they will have been sitting for a few days...no big deal...when you are ready to paint you want to go over the parts with a gray scotch brite, blow them off, tack them then spray.....just to get "fall out" pollen, little teeny tiny bug turds, hand prints...etc off before you paint.....if ya need me ta hold your hand I'm just a phone call away.anytime...(damn near as excited about your paint job as when I paint mine)...da Bat

[j.miller]

Oh ! Just seal the side you are painting.....we're just trying to get this bird in the air and back on the ground in one piece.....save the acrobatics for the pros. (jeez I crack myself up) xoxo

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks Jeff. I am getting exited and a little nervous. I took the flip flop parts off the panels last night and played with my garage set up. Much more room and doable. I am going to paint it all at once like you recommend. Well, all except the underside of the trunk an hood. I am going to paint those this week. Either Tuesday or Wednesday. If all goes as planned I am going to paint this weekend. I am developing my plan and will post some details later. I know, I know. Some of you are saying.....your over thinking this....Get er done! But I'm an engineer so planning is part of the fun. Plus my wife says I have a little OCD. I am going to need a plan to address that. :o

I am going to pick up the paint today at lunch. Getting close.

[jceckard]

But I'm an engineer so planning is part of the fun. Plus my wife says I have a little OCD.

All of us engineers are (at least) a little OCD. It's actually a good thing when you think about it. :)

This thread is fantastic by the way. I really appreciate the level of detail here.

[awd-turbo]

Are you using a cup and liner setup? If so what one? I started my slick sand over the weekend and I am starting to look into paint gun setups... I found the slick sand to be very hard to clean the gun... and I was looking for an easier way when i get to sealer and paint.

[srobinsonx2]

I'm using 3M's PPS system. It works great. I am using a turbine system which requires a pressurized cup which is different than the normal cup I used with my primer gun. See post 128 above. It describes what I have. It makes clean up much easier. Essentially you just have to clean the gun. Good luck.

[srobinsonx2]

I am committed now. I purchased the paint yesterday and the rest of my supplies. I picked up a gallon of the main color (PRH) and a quart of the stripe color (1D6). I also bought the appropriate amount of reducer in JR507. This is their slow reducer for 75-85F. I also picked up some tape. They had a few kinds so I picked what I thought was the best. I got some vinyl tape that I plan to use as the outline of the stripes. I will then use the green tape (more like traditional masking) along with some paper to fill in the stripe. All of the tape for this part was 1/2". I also got some wider green tape incase I don't like the paper. I also picked up some 1/4" vinyl tape. I will use this for the 1/4" "pin stripe" just outside the main le mans stripes. I struggled with how I was going to get this stripe laid out perfectly. Since I am going to have the 1/4" stripe, exactly 1/4" away from the main stripe I am going to use the tape itself as a spacer. So, I will lay down a 1/4" tape line right next to the main stripe. I will then run a second 1/4 tape line right next to the first. I can then pull the first tape line (the one in the middle) and should have a perfectly spaced 1/4" stripe. If there is a better way just let me know. Here is pic of what I bought

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71047&d=1500981144

So I have contemplated how I am going to actually do the painting (time of day, sequence ,etc). Here is my plan. Feel free to critique me:

- Wedensday eveneing: Paint the underside of the hood scoop, hood, and deck lid. Sealer first, followed by the main color and clear. Tops will be taped
- Thursday evening: arrange the garage for the main painting session. Remove the tape from the top of the painted panels and re-tape the bottom
- Friday morning: 4 AM sealer is applied
- 5:30 Apply the stripe color to the center of the body, hood, and trunk. 3 coats or until full coverage (10 minute flash between coats)
- 8:00 AM (after a 1 hour flash) - tape off the stripes. I assume this will take me 2-3 hours to get it perfect. It will then be 11 AM and getting hot. Wait for evening
- 10:00 PM - spray the main color on all panels and body. 3-4 coats for full coverage with a 10 minute flash time.
- 1:00 AM - pull tape and spray clear. 2 -3 coats with 10 minute flash time.

If I make a mistake (runs, accidental contact, big bug) on the sealer or paint, I plan to stop at the point of the mistake. Let it flash completely (essentially cure) then wet sand with 600 grit and re-coat. If a mistake happens on clear then I was going to just going to deal with it once the clear is done. I will of course remove any trash if it happens to fall into my clear but runs I will just fix later.

As a note, I was going to tack the car off between coats after it has flashed and just before apply the next coat. I thought this might help reduce any risk of having some overspray that had dried. Is that a good idea or not?

I am getting excited. I took off Friday and Monday so I will have adequate time. Wish me luck and let me know if I have missed something.

[RoadRacer]

Big weekend :D Shame there isn't a live stream so we could watch the color going on!

[j.miller]

I am committed now. I purchased the paint yesterday and the rest of my supplies. I picked up a gallon of the main color (PRH) and a quart of the stripe color (1D6). I also bought the appropriate amount of reducer in JR507. This is their slow reducer for 75-85F. I also picked up some tape. They had a few kinds so I picked what I thought was the best. I got some vinyl tape that I plan to use as the outline of the stripes. I will then use the green tape (more like traditional masking) along with some paper to fill in the stripe. All of the tape for this part was 1/2". I also got some wider green tape incase I don't like the paper. I also picked up some 1/4" vinyl tape. I will use this for the 1/4" "pin stripe" just outside the main le mans stripes. I struggled with how I was going to get this stripe laid out perfectly. Since I am going to have the 1/4" stripe, exactly 1/4" away from the main stripe I am going to use the tape itself as a spacer. So, I will lay down a 1/4" tape line right next to the main stripe. I will then run a second 1/4 tape line right next to the first. I can then pull the first tape line (the one in the middle) and should have a perfectly spaced 1/4" stripe. If there is a better way just let me know. Here is pic of what I bought

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71047&d=1500981144

So I have contemplated how I am going to actually do the painting (time of day, sequence ,etc). Here is my plan. Feel free to critique me:

- Wedensday eveneing: Paint the underside of the hood scoop, hood, and deck lid. Sealer first, followed by the main color and clear. Tops will be taped
- Thursday evening: arrange the garage for the main painting session. Remove the tape from the top of the painted panels and re-tape the bottom
- Friday morning: 4 AM sealer is applied
- 5:30 Apply the stripe color to the center of the body, hood, and trunk. 3 coats or until full coverage (10 minute flash between coats)
- 8:00 AM (after a 1 hour flash) - tape off the stripes. I assume this will take me 2-3 hours to get it perfect. It will then be 11 AM and getting hot. Wait for evening
- 10:00 PM - spray the main color on all panels and body. 3-4 coats for full coverage with a 10 minute flash time.
- 1:00 AM - pull tape and spray clear. 2 -3 coats with 10 minute flash time.

If I make a mistake (runs, accidental contact, big bug) on the sealer or paint, I plan to stop at the point of the mistake. Let it flash completely (essentially cure) then wet sand with 600 grit and re-coat. If a mistake happens on clear then I was going to just going to deal with it once the clear is done. I will of course remove any trash if it happens to fall into my clear but runs I will just fix later.

As a note, I was going to tack the car off between coats after it has flashed and just before apply the next coat. I thought this might help reduce any risk of having some overspray that had dried. Is that a good idea or not?

I am getting excited. I took off Friday and Monday so I will have adequate time. Wish me luck and let me know if I have missed something.

Time line is a little tight for the stripe process but other then that it all looks like a plan. I could help you with your stripes if ya wanna have another chat. You are doing so good brother !...da Bat

[Gromit]

wow my schooling as a manufacturing engineer is kicking in...

What about stopping after stripe color.

waiting until the night or next morning to tape. Give the strips a chance to really cure. or is that really not a consideration with catalyzed paint..
I would also think you want to have time to thoroughly clean the spray gun on the color change...
Then do an second AM session on Saturday for the main color. That way your not dead tired at the end of an already long day. and if you start color at the same time each day you should have similar temperature profile. consistency is a key here or so I think..

keep going and keep posting.
Chris AKA Gromit

[Jeff Kleiner]

I have to agree with the professor RE: striping time. If you have established a centerline and put down some benchmarks so that you can get back to it 2 hours is still pushing it; if you're beginning from ground zero allow more. Take your time, trust your eyes and be sure that the tape is tight in all of the small radius areas like the hood and trunk flanges. You are correct in using the 1/4" tape as your spacer between the main and outside stripes.

Good luck!

Jeff

[srobinsonx2]

Well, I talked to Jeff Miller today. He gave me some last minute taping instructions and a pep talk. So I am ready now. I got the scoop, hood and deck lid taped off on the top side. Word or advice. If you are going to do this get paper that is wider than 6 inches. I bought the 6 inch paper for the stripes. Miller recommended just using tape which is what I plan to do. So I decided to use the 6 inch wide paper to cover the tops of the deck and hood. What a PITA. Get something wider. Got it done and all set up. So I sprayed a coat of sealer on the under side of these parts. It took about 8 oz of mixed JP335 to cover these parts. It laid down very smooth and I had virtual no overspray. I am just surprised at how well this new gun set up performs compared to my uneducated initial set up (wide open fan and wide open fluid flow). Here is a shot of the hood.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71086&d=1501037537

The deck lid and scoop look the same. I will spray color and clear on these parts tomorrow. I am excited and my confidence is building with each successful application of new product. Couldn't have gotten here without the help of you guys. Special shout out to da Bat. This guys rocks. Hopefully my next post has some shiny color.

If anyone is interested, I have logged 169.5 hours so far. So, if I am the average amatuer it is going to 170-180 hours of bodywork before spraying paint. I will keep logging hours until I am done.

P.S. I just previewed my post and need to take the flip flop brackets off the hood. I left those in case I wanted to use them again. I am committed now, so those can go. I will do that before paint and clear tomorrow.

[srobinsonx2]

wow my schooling as a manufacturing engineer is kicking in...

What about stopping after stripe color.

waiting until the night or next morning to tape. Give the strips a chance to really cure. or is that really not a consideration with catalyzed paint..
I would also think you want to have time to thoroughly clean the spray gun on the color change...
Then do an second AM session on Saturday for the main color. That way your not dead tired at the end of an already long day. and if you start color at the same time each day you should have similar temperature profile. consistency is a key here or so I think..

keep going and keep posting.
Chris AKA Gromit

Thanks Chris. Us engineers need to stick together. We aren't like normal folks, kind of messed up at times. :D Good point on resting and that is kind of what I am going to do. I will paint the stripes, let them flash for an hour or two then tape. It will then be the middle of the day and I will take a break until it gets cooler outside (late evening). Cooler is relative down here in Texas. Anything south of 85F is within my reducer range. IF I am too tired, I can wait until the next morning. The paint I am using, PPG shopline JBP, has a 24 hour clear coat window so should be ok.

[srobinsonx2]

I have to agree with the professor RE: striping time. If you have established a centerline and put down some benchmarks so that you can get back to it 2 hours is still pushing it; if you're beginning from ground zero allow more. Take your time, trust your eyes and be sure that the tape is tight in all of the small radius areas like the hood and trunk flanges. You are correct in using the 1/4" tape as your spacer between the main and outside stripes.

Good luck!

Jeff

Thanks a bunch Jeff. Your help has been invaluable. I do have some established landmarks for the stripes. I did a stripe test early in the body work process (when I was setting gaps). I have a small hole drilled on the underside of the oiler cooler opening. I also have the center of the hood opening marked between two bumper holes I have drilled. So finding center should be pretty easy. Miller also gave me some good pointer about laying out the center stripe. He starts from the back and that will work well with my pre-established points. Thanks again for the help and info.

[Jeff Kleiner]

... I will take a break until it gets cooler outside (late evening)...

One thing to keep in mind with that evening spraying---bugs! When they get active as dusk approaches no matter how tight you think you have your space sealed the bastages seem to find a way in, especially when they're drawn to your lights. A few years ago I was about to lay the clear on one late in the day but my wife insisted that I come in and eat. Turned out to be a good thing 'cause when I went back out a half hour later those little pecker gnats were swarming and some had found their way in (BTW, you know why they call 'em pecker gnats don't you?). If I had been putting down the clear undoubtedly some would have wound up in it. That was a case where it was definitely better to wait until the next morning.

Hood looks good Man!

Jeff

[awd-turbo]

Fantastic..... Thanks for the timeline and time frame... I was wondering about how fast that clear has to go on... I just finished all my slick sand last night... I am right behind you. The info that da bat and kleiner have posted is awesome...

[srobinsonx2]

I am pretty excited. I sprayed color as planned tonight. I got the underside of the hood, deck lid, and scoop as planned. I also knocked out the doors. I was feeling ambitious and confident so just went for it.

I first sealed the doors and let that flash. Mixed up some red and got after it. I applied 3 coats on everything. I had pretty good coverage on two coats but thought I could see a couple of uneven spots. Went ahead and laid down the third and think I am good. Here is a picture of the hood scoop after the full 3 coats.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71110&d=1501126493

The paint laid down very well. It turned out really smooth with virtually no orange peel. I was pretty happy. So I waited 30 minutes for everything to flash real good and then mixed up some clear. Oh, I cleaned my gun real good between color and clear. I put down two good coats and did notice some orange peel. Not bad (at least I didn't think so) and decided a little extra layer wouldn't hurt since I will most likely need to cut and buff. I don't who I think I was kidding thinking i wouldn't need to do some work after clear. I take that back I do know who I was kidding.......myself. Here is a shot of the top of the door after 3 coats. It was the best picture I could get to show the level of orange peel. What do you think? Is that too rough to proceed to the main body and tops of the panels?

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71113&d=1501126495

Hood

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71111&d=1501126494

If look real close just below the light reflection, you can see where a bug landed on the clear and decided to do the Texas two step across my pretty shiny new clear. BASTAGES!!! I picked him out as quick as I could and immediately sent him on to meet his maker. OH, I cussed him real good as well. Here is close up of his aftermath. I wonder if this can be fixed? I tried getting those little black spots out but they seemed to just be poop or something. No way to pick it out. Left it alone and it will either sand out or I will have to live with some of it????? OH THE HUMANITY!!!!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71109&d=1501126492

Overall, I think it went well. The pictures don't really show the color well. I am excited to see what it looks like in the sun. Maybe I can snap some pics in the sun tomorrow afternoon. I can then post some more paint porn.

Give me some honest feedback. I am going to start the main body paint Friday so could use some feedback. Thanks in advance guys. I had some other learnings and will post those later. I am tired and have to go to my day job in the morning.

[Boydster]

I can imagine your level of excitement. Its gonna be beautiful, bug poop and all.

[carlewms]

Wow! I am no expert ... and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night so no valuable feedback here. It sure looks great and you sure are helping all of us out that are facing that DIY painting challenge with this "must read" thread.

[Gromit]

No expert here ether and I am going to be staying there this week end.... But the way I judge orange peel in photos is by using reflection s. In that bug black spot shot look at the reflection of the camera phone thje edge is pretty straight and smooth. I've seen worse from pros and factory's.

Well done you're an inspiration
Chris aka Gromit
Ps I hope we're not getting spammy with the hotel references :)

[j.miller]

Nice job preserving the DNA on that bug....don'tcha just hate it when the legs pull off. Sometimes I wonder if I shouldn't have just left the whole bug in there for conversation sake. Well done, got your feet wet, base looks good. Before you shoot again I want to do a little homework on your clear and see iffin we can get it to lay down like a cheap Singapore hoo......... um.....go down smoother then a nice single malt whisky (HA! PULLED THA ONE OUT OF THE GUTTER !) (that was close)...da bat

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks guys.

Jeff,

I noticed that if I got a little further away, I got less orange peel. The first coat had most of the peel. The second and third I think were better. Just don't think once you have some peel, it can be fixed with additional coats.

Do you have any advice? I am going to spray clear in the AM from now on. I think the cooler temps should help. It was hot and i think i am at the high end of the hardener range. JH6720

Do you think what i have can be salvaged?

[awd-turbo]

Did you slick sand the hood scoop? Then prime and paint it?

[srobinsonx2]

Did you slick sand the hood scoop? Then prime and paint it?

Yes sir. Slick Sand, 2k primer, sealer, paint, and clear. Essentially just like I did the other parts except no rage gold. Sanded just like everything else.

[srobinsonx2]

So, I did some homework. I wasn't sure if Jeff said he was going to do the homework or I should. Either way, I talked to the shop where I am buying my products. Great guys. We called their technical product rep and talked about the clear I am using which is Shopline JC6700. He said it was perfectly fine to reduce the clear. He said up to a 2:1:0.5 ratio. I don't think that much is necessary. I am sure Miller will chime in and get me straight. I just thought I would share what I learned since the product sheet does not mention reducer at all (whether it is ok or not ok).

In case someone missed it, I am using a turbine spray system. I can't really adjust the pressure. I get what I get. When I talked to manufacturer of the turbine system and read their troubleshooting guides, they mention two corrections for orange peel. One is spray distance and the other is reducing the material. So I now know I have that option. I will wait for some expert opinions here.

[Frank Messina]

Not to interrupt the flow of this (no pun intended) but this thread is reminiscent of the earliest build days on the other other forums where we were glued to the monitor as problems were solved and cars built minute by minute. It was like a soap opera, As The Wrench Turns". This thread has that same problem solving fascination. Great work srobinson2x. Keep it up. You have a following.
Frank

[j.miller]

So GOOD ! you can add some reducer. That stuff is like "spray glue" and you need to atomize better. So yes, thinning the material is one way. Smaller tip and paint slower is another way and last would be to use the high air setting on the Turbo. I am all for thinning....reason being. A. High pressure more overspray. 2. Smaller tip slower painting. D. Thinning should allow you to shoot pretty much the same as you have been. ...if your first coat is peely you can paint your way out of it. Each coat you put on "wets" the previous coat. The problem you run into is as you try to melt it out you can get a heavy saggy look to your clear. You are on the right track brother.....Back to the practice paper. You DO NOT want to learn something new or experiment on the car. Now would be a good time to practice your spot repair. Prep the bottom of the hood with 600, spot in that bug carnage, and re-clear using the new formula and see how it goes....cheers...da Bat

[j.miller]

Oh! and for anyone following this....if you have the "plastic" scoop...Lightly sand with 320 and hit it with Bulldog adhesion promotor, give it 2 full coats of 2k urethane. Finish sand with 5-600 and paint.

[srobinsonx2]

Two questions:

1. So when you say prep the bottom. You mean just sand the bug carnage out not the whole underside? In the meantime. I will go practice on some paper. I have some little dirt specs/debris that got on the top after I finished spraying the clear last night. I think I can get that cleaned up with the cut and buff. It isn't much.

2. Do i need to worry about the orange peel on the doors/deck lid? Since they are insect fee, I hope I can smooth that out during the cut and buff as well. The top edge of the driver side door (on the inside of the rolled edge has quite a bit. I din't see that until this afternoon). I took some pics but you can't really see it.

Thanks a bunch Jeff.

Here is a pic of the color in the sun

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71162&d=1501197022

[j.miller]

No, Prep the whole bottom of the hood with 600, don't try to sand the bug out...just sand it smooth. You'll know you're done when the surface is dull and even. You can use a scotch brite in the grooves so you don't sand through. Just shoot a little paint over the black specs if you still see them hit them again extending the spray out....do it till you can't see them then re-clear with 2 coats of clear. As far as cut and buff....CRAP!!....THAT'S A WHOLE OTHER THREAD !

[Duke]

Nice work on getting some color down. Looking good.

Two things are a painters best friend. Flat razor blades and sewing needles. Have a few sewing needles on hand to help pick out the bugs/bug parts in wet paint or anything else that may fall into it. If you get a bug or two in the clear you can pick it out, and lay down another extra pass or two so you have more wet sanding buffer to get it flat. The flat razor blades (with the ends rounded smooth from sand paper) are to be used for flattening out runs after the paint has dried, before wet sanding/buffing.

Another trick, if you sweat a lot wrap a few shop towels around your wrists, then using tape to secure them. This helps keep any sweat drips off the paint.

When you lay down your clear coats, air flow is going to be your friend in the garage. Without it you won't be able to see across the garage it will be so thick. Anything you don't want coated, get it out now. If you have enough air flow, make sure you have filters to keep the bugs and other junk out. Preferably on both sides (inlet and outlet).

Most important, have a beer between base and clear coat, relax, and then get after it.

[srobinsonx2]

I took a second run at the hood last night. I sanded the bottom with 600 per my instructions. I did this wet. I tried it dry but the paper just clogs up immediately. Let it dry real good. Tacked it and sprayed some more color. Got good coverage then let it flash for 30 minutes. And sprayed some clear. I had done some testing earlier as Jeff suggested. I really varied two things to see if I could get a little less orange peel. I tried two different amounts of reducer and changed the power output on the turbine. I did a 2:1:0.5 ratio and a 2:1:0.25 ratio. The 2:1:0.5 worked the best. It does have a tendency to run/sag if you don't keep things moving but I think that is manageable. My turbine has two power outputs, high and low. Low is just 30% off max. Tried both but not much difference. I have been spraying with the low so I went with that. I also tried changing my distance from the poster board but that didn't make any drastic changes. Anyway, I got something that I thought was workable and laid down clear on the hood. Here is the end result. Certainly better, probably ok, but not perfect.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71204&d=1501251501

I am going to try a smaller nozzle and needle combo this afternoon. I am using a 1.5mm and will drop down to a 1.3mm and see if that helps. I sprayed the stripe color this morning and had a little color left over in the PPS cup. Laid that down on some poster board. That will give me another practice round.

I am certainly more comfortable with spraying material now. I got up early this morning, taped off the underside of the hood. I taped the undersides of the trunk and scoop last night. Flipped those over, ran a scotch brite pad over everything and tacked it off. I then sprayed sealer on everything including the body. That was uneventful and laid down smooth. No overspray and I went "with the air flow". After a 30-40 minute flash, I mixed up some stripe color and laid that down. Here are a couple of shots. I went a little wider than needed but I thought I would rather be safe than sorry.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71203&d=1501251491

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71202&d=1501251482

The silver is a little hard to see but it has some metallic flake that will match the level of metallic in my red. I am letting that flash for a couple of hours and then I will go laid out the stripes and try to perfect my clear set up.

I am getting closer. This painting process is a little nerve racking. I have to just remind myself to take it slow, anything can be fixed, and I have great tutors so it will eventually turn out good.

[srobinsonx2]

When the Jeffs tell you it is Christmas in July.....just go ahead and start hanging you stockings. They said stripes would take longer to tape off than my planned 2-3 hours. Well it took me a little over 4 hours. I am all done now.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71234&d=1501268424

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71233&d=1501268415

I kind of like the neon green and silver. Some one should paint one those colors.

The panels are all 91 degrees so no paint until it cools off this evening (which means after 8:30PM down here is Ole San Antone). I will also test the clear this evening. Hopefully I can a set up that is just a little smoother. If not, I think the orange peel I am getting now is fixable.

I am going to straighten up the garage, cool off in the pool, have a cold drink, relax, and visualize glass smooth clear on top of red and silver. By this time tomorrow I will either be ecstatic or bummed. Either way, I will post some pictures.

Wish me luck,

Shannon

[Jeff Kleiner]

Looking good; here's wishing you luck :)




I kind of like the neon green and silver. Some one should paint one those colors.

...kind of partial to neon green and orange myself.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71237&d=1501281692

Jeff

71237

[j.miller]

If you spray tonight you are gonna have a bug problem....A BIG BUG PROBLEM !! They are gonna see the lights in your garage and it will be party time......yes , the 1.3 should give you more atomization as well as slow the material a bit so you don't have to be on your toes so much. It's all lookin real,,,i say, I SAY , REAL GOOD !

[srobinsonx2]

Well, I am pretty excited. I got the clear on. Got up early and got after it. Last night I tried he 1.3mm nozzle and needle with the clear on some poster board. NO GOOD. Orange peel was worse. It was probably my technique but couldn't get comfortable and decided I would just go with the 1.5mm and live with the results. Here is shot of the car before clear. The paint went on fine with no issues.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71283&d=1501342638

Here she is after a couple hours of set time. I have the garage open to let it air out. Man that clear is just nasty. Smells bad, hard to spray, and sticky. But it looks good now.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71285&d=1501342664

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71282&d=1501342623

I was pleasantly surprised this morning. I am not sure if it was my prayers I said last night or the cooler temps but the clear laid down much smoother than my past attempts. I focused on my technique, 50% overlap, and a medium wet coat. Here is a close up

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71284&d=1501342649

But, with all that smooth clear, I of course got some runs. I have about four. Here are two examples but the others look about the same. The second pic has some orange peel as well. That is probably the worst spot on the car. Driver's side of course.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71287&d=1501342692

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71286&d=1501342683

I think I can fix these. I am going to do some research today and get a game plan. Any guidance would be much appreciated. I have watched some Youtube videos and have a basic idea but specifics would help. Thanks in advance.

No way I could have gotten this far with the help, honest feedback, and support. Special thanks the Jeff Miller for the hand holding and answering my stupid questions.

[RR20AC]

Hey that looks a lot like my car Miller just painted! Guess we both have something in common as Jeff Miller was part of both our builds but you get the gratification that I did all my self. Congrats. Looks great.

[Jacob]

Good job. If you have enough clear you can sand and buff out the runs and orange peel. Be careful sanding though!

[j.miller]

Well done brother...looks great. As for the runs. I would let them dry a couple days. When you sand them , check to make sure they are not still "rubbery". If the clear balls up it's not dry. Lots of tricks...from razor blades with rounded corners to little file blocks. Do Not Use those methods. You want to use sand paper wrapped around a straight paint stick cut in half. Only wrap the paper around twice (to many will have to much play in it" You want to start with 800 "wet" and try to stay on top of the runs, sags, drips . Take your time and work them down. Check often by drying and looking. You will be able to see your progress as the run goes away you will start contacting the surface around it. Switch to 1000 wet and take it down flat, then switch to 1500 for final. I know 800 sound heavy but it takes the tops off the run and is less likely to cut the area around it......YA DONE GOOD SON !!! ...da Bat

[RoadRacer]

That looks beautiful! Congratulations

[Jeff Kleiner]

Hey! As Miller said, ya' done good :) You'll be able to take care of the sags and peel with cut & buff---don't get in a hurry and be careful of the edges. Good job!

Jeff

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks guys. I still have work to do with the runs and orange peel. I will continue on and document that progress as well.

It is a bad idea to assemble the car and then remove the runs/orange peel or do all this work with the body off the car?

[j.miller]

Cut and polish is very messy biz. Off is best. You are going to have lots of water and compound to deal with. When you are done with cut and buff you can undercoat on the buck so everything on the chassis stays clean.

[Svtfreak]

Dude, you're my hero now. And not just a simple color for your first go round! You done good and giving me the cajones to paint my 33 myself and then repaint my cobra myself for next project!

Jeff is right. Cut and buff off the car. Easiest that way, to do and clean up. Plus you can do the backside whatever your heart desires before going on.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Once again, what Professor Mr. The Bat said. Cut & buff is wet and sloppy (I'll stop there and not make any comments like "same way Miller likes his wimmin")---drag it outside to the driveway if you can.

Jeff

[carlewms]

Spectacular Job! I got to print this entire thread and study it over and over again before getting to the painting stage.

Thanks,

Carl

[srobinsonx2]

In all my excitement I forgot to show another problem I had. Despite my best efforts, sweat bands, cooler temps, and no paint suit, I managed to get a drop of sweat in the clear. I didn't get any in the paint but of course it would have to get in the clear and be completely obvious. Here is a picture

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71336&d=1501415997

I don't know if you can tell very well but the sweat kind of displaced some of the clear and made little low spots. How do I address something like this? I am concerned about just sanding it down like the runs since it might be thin in those low spots. As I stewed over this last night, I think this is what I am most worried about regarding the paint job.

Thanks for all the kind words. I hope this thread will help others out. As you can see, It did not turn out perfect. I hope I can fix most of these and make it presentable. It certainly is alot of work and I still have some to go. It is doable if you have the energy and passion. But it is not for the faint of heart. I have logged about 191 on the bodywork and still need to cut and buff (read remove my clear mistakes).

Any input on the sweat fiasco would be appreciated.

[Jdav]

This thread makes me so happy that there are professionals that can do this for me. Good on you for doing it all yourself, but it looks like a miserable time to me!

[Duke]

You're fine with the sweat drip in the clear. Most of that should sand out. You can always mix up a little clear and dab it into any low spots while wet sanding. Disposable eye droppers are good for mixing small amounts and eastwood has some slick paint touch up q-tips.

If you haven't a done so already, let me add to what others said. Get it outside and let that sucker bake in the sun. Like all day. You don't want that clear to say soft.

[j.miller]

Once again, what Professor Mr. The Bat said. Cut & buff is wet and sloppy (I'll stop there and not make any comments like "same way Miller likes his wimmin")---drag it outside to the driveway if you can.

Jeff
HEY ! WHAT HAPPENS IN LONDON STAYS IN LONDON ! You wanna take it out in the driveway? Oh! it's on. Gravel Angels ,,, face down,,,naked ,High Noon !!!! (this is gonna hurt).





Once you sand the defect a little Dukes idea works....I like using a tooth pick.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...As you can see, It did not turn out perfect...

Dude, they never are. There's ALWAYS something. You fix it or work it out as best you can---thing is when you get as up close and personal as we do with the bodywork, paint, cut & buff you know where all the bodies are buried but 99% of the time nobody else will ever find 'em.

Once Miller stepped in I kind of stood back and paid attention as he guided you through. No way to ignore his advice and experience; on line and off I've learned a bunch from him over the years---even a thing or two during the course of this thread! As much he and I like to blow smoke up each others skirts (oops, was that another secret I wasn't supposed to tell?) I have nothing but respect for him and gratitude for the pearls of wisdom he's shared.

Again Shannon, GOOD JOB :)

Batty my friend, kudos to ya' :cool:

Jeff

[srobinsonx2]

Alright. Thanks for the reality check guys. I guess I was hoping for a little better results from my first paint job than what should reasonably be expected. So, I need to move on and resolve the issues. One problem at a time. It sounds like this is salvageable and I got some good feedback on the sweat spots, runs, and sags.

A couple of observations about painting before I move on. At least this is what I have learned:

1. Just about anything can be fixed. So don't get worked up. Just work the problem with the advice from the experts.
2. I found the base coat to be the easiest thing to apply.
3. Clear was the trickiest to apply. The ideal application is the slight difference between dry spray/orange peel and a run. The experts can get this right routinely.....an amateur can not. At least my clear was very sensitive to temperature. 85-90 did not work very well. 75 F worked much better.
4. If you sweat, find some way to keep that off the car while you paint. I don't have a solution but figure out something.
5. Bugs suck!!! And I mean ALL BUGS!! I hate 'em.
6. Without a paint suit, it takes some work to get clear coat out of your leg hair. I'm just saying.
7. Make a plan and stick with it. Your plan should include how to deal with issues (bugs, hose touching painted parts, sweat, etc). Don't try to make up your own solutions on the fly. Both times it didn't work out for me. Take advantage of what other have already learned the hard way.
8. Painting is a lot of work and I see why a good paint job cost so much. Good tools, experience, quality shop, and reliable help is not cheap or easy to get. If you aren't 100% committed to doing it, hire someone.
9. Whenever you think you are done sanding........YOUR NOT!!
10. Seeing a shiny new paint job is very rewarding. Very few people will know all the work it takes to get such a thing. But you will know and that is all that matters.

Enough of my thoughts. I have some issues to fix. They won't fix themselves. So, with renewed hope and energy, let's get this thing done. I have some clear coat that is curing and it is just begging for me to make it come alive. So I did some research. My plan is as follows:

1. Test this method on a panel that can be easily fixed. The passenger side door will be my first attempt
2. Wet Sand down any runs or sags with 600 grit on a paint stick. Take my time and just knock down the area of concern.
3. Wet sand the panel with 1000 grit on my rubber pad to remove the orange peel. Stop when the panel is dull and smooth. Use the same cross hatch pattern I used for blocking.
4. Wet sand with 1500 grit to remove the sanding scratches from before.
5. Wet sand again with 2000 grit to remove the 1500 scratches (this step is recommended by some and not by others. Some do this with a DA). I was going to do this by hand if I did it at all. I might skip this and see how buffing will take care of this.
6. Use a rotary buffer, wool pad and 3M Perfect-it #1 (rubbing compound) and remove the scratches. Don't stay in one spot too long, keep moving.
7. Use rotary buffer, foam pad and Perfect it #2 machine polish to remove swirl marks.
8. Use the rotary buffer, ultra fine polishing foam pad, and Perfect it #3 ultra fine polish to finish.
9. If the inside of the door turns out ok, then I will do the outside and move on to the next panel.

I know there will be some tricks/tips, so let them fly. Comment on my plan. I want to pick up some supplies early this week so I can start the process towards the end of the week. I plan to go full bore this next weekend. Game on!!!! The orange peel and runs are gone.

[j.miller]

Sooo, With all the 500-600 paper in my shop,,,when it comes to sanding out a run or sag I'll order a 5pack of 800. Rip a sheet in half, then half again and wrap it around a paint stick. When I buff, I try to buff no more then two square feet at a time. OK! so here it goes.....BUFFING ! so who's doing the work while buffing ? Is it you? the machine? the wool pad ? NO, NO, AND NO! Those three things are the delivery system for the "worker which is the "compound" . Max rpm for #1 cut is 1400 rpm. #2-#3 is 1000rpm. Your pressure should be little more then the weight of your buffer. You want it to travel over the surface at about 3-4in per second (pretty slow). You want to hold your pad at 8-10 degrees (almost flat) where possible. WATCH OUT FOR THE EDGES !!! Your spinning pad has leading edge and a trailing edge...whenever you are working near an edge on the body, hood,,,,etc , you want the trailing edge of the pad coming off the panel . If the leading edge comes "ON" to the panel your clear and paint will be cut to nothing (#1 killer in buffing). Don't try to buff without making a mess....leave that to a detailer....I MAKE A MESS! The compound needs to be wet to a degree. Dry buffing does two things...scratches the surface and takes forever. Buffing "wet" runs the risk of "pad clogging" it just cakes up and does next to nothing. Buy a "pad spur" for cleaning your pad....DO NOT USE A DAMN FORK ! it kills the pad and I have seen the fork get caught and thrown across the shop. For a new guy I would say (to be on the safe side) Buff wet and spur your pad after each 6sq feet or panel "which ever comes first".....get a buffing apron (you are going to be wearing this stuff) Rule of thumb.....IF THERE IS NO DROPS OF COMPOUND ON THE CEILING YOU'RE BUFFING TOO DRY ! Just like sanding...to and fro....side to side. It will take at least 4 passes (if not more) to get the scratches out. When you look and the polished surface...if you see linear scratches you need to keep going...if you see arched or round scratches those are from the buffer....little tip "you can't buff out buffer scratches by continuing to buff"....by the time you get done with the compound , the foam will be a breeze. Do me a favor....if you have watched a You Tube of buffing...let me know so I can take a look. When it comes to "how too's" on Y-tube I have seen some really wrong info being past on. cheers ,,,da Bat

[Duke]

One of these days we'll have to teach da Bat how to use paragraphs ;)

- He's spot on. First time out, stay away from wool. You'll burn through.
- Heat will cause you to melt and roll the paint off. Watch your speed, don't buff without material on the pad, period. It will cause too much heat.
- Easy on the 1000. Those scratches are pretty deep. I like to start with 1500.
- 2000 helps make the polishing to quicker. It's just a quick pass that's needed.
- Watch your edges in relationship to the pad rotation. Never come 'into' an edge, only 'off' the edge.

[srobinsonx2]

Thanks guys. I found this on the other forum. Was helpful for me regarding the process.

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/291115-trying-get-shine-after-cut-buff.html#/topics/291115?page=1

Jeff, Here is a link to the video I found on line. I don't plan on using a DA.

https://youtu.be/_i_rmKAUa1Y

It sounds like this is less physical effort than blocking and wet sanding primer? Does it go faster? I don't want to mess up the paint and clear. Repainting would suck. I will just take it slow.

[j.miller]

One of these days we'll have to teach da Bat how to use paragraphs ;)

- He's spot on. First time out, stay away from wool. You'll burn through.
- Heat will cause you to melt and roll the paint off. Watch your speed, don't buff without material on the pad, period. It will cause too much heat.
- Easy on the 1000. Those scratches are pretty deep. I like to start with 1500.
- 2000 helps make the polishing to quicker. It's just a quick pass that's needed.
- Watch your edges in relationship to the pad rotation. Never come 'into' an edge, only 'off' the edge.

Well, Duke ; IT'S A "PAIR OF GIRAFFES" ....paragraphs....you crack me up !!! I can just see Noah trying to put a paragraphs on the ark of the covenant. (can't mess with me...I saw Indiana Jones....5 times !) Next you'll want to correct my gramma and punchafication. But I digress . At this time I am disinclined to aquiesse to your request....so there ! (that means "NO"!) Would have thought you would burn me on my run-on sentences and disembodied thought strands....ok, now I'm lost:confused: OPH ! and I never said don't start with wool....IT GIVES THE BEST CUT ! I just said "watch the edges". Swear to god Duke you are on my last nerve:mad: You're as bad as my sisters kid !:p



I use the 3000 but not the 5k. I do not like the compound that brakes down into a polish (it clogs the pad) It's great if you are doing one panel...or a little spot like the dude in the video...but we are doing a whole car. I WANT GRIT the whole time I'm compounding. So what we saw in the video was how to polish. Or did we ? the steps he takes are correct but it was a disguised infomercial for several products. He does a little spot,,,,takes a little time,,,,get down tonight,,,get down tonight....oops! song cross-over. I see this all the time at trade shows....it takes a lot of time to cut and polish. A lot of concentration. A lot of patience. It is the most physically demanding part of the whole project (for me). I need to do it over a period of 2 days to make the chedda, you can take your own sweet time (see if I care). It' going to take some trial and error to get a feel for it...well, that's all I can say because my f-ing paragraphitis has kicked in !!!!:D...da Bat

[Duke]

Well, Duke ; IT'S A "PAIR OF GIRAFFES" ....paragraphs....you crack me up !!! I can just see Noah trying to put a paragraphs on the ark of the covenant. (can't mess with me...I saw Indiana Jones....5 times !) Next you'll want to correct my gramma and punchafication. But I digress . At this time I am disinclined to aquiesse to your request....so there ! (that means "NO"!) Would have thought you would burn me on my run-on sentences and disembodied thought strands....ok, now I'm lost:confused: OPH ! and I never said don't start with wool....IT GIVES THE BEST CUT ! I just said "watch the edges". Swear to god Duke you are on my last nerve:mad: You're as bad as my sisters kid !:p



71544

You know we love yea, low hanging fruit on a Monday.

[srobinsonx2]

This thread has become very entertaining. You guys are hilarious. I am not sure where Jeff M. comes up with this stuff but it is gold....pure gold. Keep it coming. Our goal here is to both inform and entertain.

Alright, I am going to be honest with you guys. I was a little overwhelmed and concerned with the clear once I saw all the issues. I got some good advice here and did some research. Last night I felt a little better that I could tackle some of the issues. I wouldn't be truly confident until I started some of this work. So........no need to delay.....LET'S DO THIS!!

Went to the supply store and spent some more money......ssshhhh. Don't tell my wife. Budget? What is a budget? Got some sanding paper and little applicators to fill in the infamous sweat spots. It is the left handed paper Jeff warned me not to buy anymore but that is all they have.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71555&d=1501550182

Got my buffing stuff as well. I got the 3M Perfect-It EX. The EX is for extreme. Supposedly it is what some of the locals use as it stays wetter longer in the hot Texas weather.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71554&d=1501550174

Got my passenger door out in the garage and all set up. The door was cleared last Wednesday so it should be good and cured. Here is a picture of a run and then a pic to show the level of orange peel I am dealing with.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71553&d=1501550165

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71552&d=1501550155

Orange peel isn't bad and about typical for what I have elsewhere. I first attacked the run. I didn't have any 800 (forgot to pick that up from the store). So I took some 600 grit and a paint stick. Wrapped the 600 around the stick, made small strokes just on the run, until it was just about smooth. Here is a shot just before I got it all the way down.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71551&d=1501550147


I started getting into the clear around it so I stopped.

Continued on the next post

[srobinsonx2]

I then jumped right into to sanding the bulk of this panel and would sand this run area down during that process to see how it came out. I had already put some 1000 and 1200 grit in some water to soak. I did a little test to see which would work better. In the picture below the left half of the sanding was done with 1000 and the right was 1200. I couldn't tell much difference in either scratches or speed of peel removal.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71550&d=1501550139

For reference, this was about 20 full strokes (back and forth) of each. I decided the 1200 would work so finished up with that. This next picture is about 40 strokes and wasn't quite complete. I still had a few low spots. It seemed to take about 45-50 to remove all the orange peel and this door panel would consume 1/3 of a half sheet of paper.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71549&d=1501550132

I then used 1500 in the same manner. Here is a shot of the 1500 on top of the 1200. The area on the left was done with 1500 and you can see a fine difference. It is much easier to see in person.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71548&d=1501550125

Carried on with 2000 after that. You can see in the next picture the difference between 2000 and 1500. 2000 is on the left.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71547&d=1501550117

Again each subsequent pass took about 45-50 strokes to remove the scratches from the higher grit. I took this final picture after 2000. This is also a good place to see that the runs has been completely removed.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=71546&d=1501550108

How am I doing so far? Am I on the right track? Let me know what you think.

I and not sure how I am going to get those small areas with that big 7" buffer I have. I might have to find something smaller for the tight little areas. I also am waiting for my pad spur to get here. Amazon says Wednesday. So have tomorrow to fix any issues you guys point out.