Roadracer's #997 build

[J R Jones]

James, I envy the exotic rocker arm suspension you have. My 818 is encumbered with compromise resulting in at least bump steer so I have become increasingly skeptical of the design.
My catalog photo of the static Hot Rod suspension suggests a little camber gain on jounce, but I see your AX photos and positive camber in turns. What is your static camber adjustment?
Have you measured bump steer? Your (high) steering arm location makes me wonder?

In general, body roll and weight transfer is not a bad thing. We raced SCCA Showroom Stock against Saabs one season, they rolled a lot and were fast. It is advantageous on wet pavement.
Less body roll puts less emphasis on bump steer and (positive) camber gain, but does not solve it.
Your AX video did not demonstrate understeer or oversteer to me, seemed neutral. I did hear the tires a bit
The rear "appears" to roll more than the front. If you add a rear ARB it will oversteer more. If you are already oversteering, you might consider ARBs on front or both ends.

Your rocker arm suspension suggests exotic anti-roll devices to my creative mind. Conventional ARB can be adjustable with arm length link mount holes or a sliding yoke.
Splined bars are more easily swapped for diameter. Hollow bars are good.

https://ast-suspension.com/docs/tech-talk/Setup-Tips-Anti-Roll-Bar.pdf

BTW your AX driving style could be likened to a lumberjack, swinging an AX, not chain sawing. Stabbing and lifting work on fast large turns, but limited throttle modulation as a compromise through slaloms is better.
Perhaps you are OC about the body roll. Let it roll, but manage the fore/aft weight transfers with controlled throttle and brake.
jim

[RoadRacer]

My catalog photo of the static Hot Rod suspension suggests a little camber gain on jounce, but I see your AX photos and positive camber in turns. What is your static camber adjustment?
Have you measured bump steer? Your (high) steering arm location makes me wonder?

This is all a stock FFR33 setup. Right now I'm at -0.5º static, with 8º caster. Of course roll is affecting the camber too.. one of many reasons I'd like to limit it.

As for bump steer, I have a kit to correct it, but have never found the time to fit it.


BTW your AX driving style could be likened to a lumberjack, swinging an AX, not chain sawing. Stabbing and lifting work on fast large turns, but limited throttle modulation as a compromise through slaloms is better.

Ha, yes! It's the most bizarre thing - from me being super smooth on circuits and giving people that same advice, all I do in autox is overreact. I find autox to be like taking a whole F1 race and speeding up the footage until it fits into 40s. I've been going quicker every lap so far by driving slower. Yesterday that was both my most calm and fastest autox run.. so you can imagine how the earlier ones went.

[J R Jones]

James, I know exactly what you are stating. The tight course and cones are information overload. It takes a discipline to focus further out, and let muscle memory handle the stuff inches away. Maybe blinders are not just for horses.
I would be distracted by your exposed front tires. Too interesting to see what they are doing and how they are reacting.

If you install front ARB I would run back to back complete, and with one link disconnected.
I do not know how you adjust camber, but I would try -1.5 to -2.0.
Cam on the LCA? Maybe you could mark the adjuster and go back and forth on that too.
jim

[J R Jones]

James, I raced with Paul Newman a couple of times. He was very good, and benefited from introspection.
He recognized early on that he had a death grip on the steering wheel. He consciously adopted a loose grip and a calmer attitude.
He did not mention it but I think breath control helps too.
jim

[CraigS]

I am coming into this thread late so a few thoughts as I start at the beginning. Offset; Over the years I have had a bunch of combinations and none seemed too terrible except one w/ a ton of it. Note that front wheel drive cars run very close to zero scrub radius because w/ more offset the power going to the ground tries to steer the car. In perfect conditions the one side offsets the other side. But as soon as traction varies left to right, the tire w/ more traction will try to steer to the opposite side of the car which the driver has to fight against. I think you have it here;
"But I was +17mm out before and now only -8mm out. Honestly I'm not sure how perfect this needs to be, but I'm having fun experimenting for very little money."
Roll; I agree you have WAY too much. I couldn't find specs for the springs, and even if I did that would be just spring rate vs wheel rate which is what really matters. But, since bars seem to be hard to do, you could increase spring rate. I like Eibachs but actually use the QA1 Hi Travel springs as they are less expensive. I'd think about almost doubling whatever the stock spring is. (data point = roadsters had 450 or 500 fronts and I run 800). Do the fronts first. Don't worry about the usual thought that stiffer reduces grip so changing the fronts only will cause understeer. It can also reduce roll so much that it reduces camber loss which will reduce understeer. And more F spring will; reduce dive under braking and; make the car feel more responsive to steering input. I see you are really thinking about fine points that many don't even know about so I bet 2 yrs from now you will have tried 3-4 sets of springs.
Camber; affects tire grip. Anything up to about 3.5 maybe 4.0 deg negative increases grip. So, for instance, say the stiffer springs do cause too much understeer, leave the springs and crank in more camber. Think like this. If your car has perfect handling balance w/ F and R camber at -1.0, you could change it to F and R = -3.0 and the handling balance would be the same but the overall grip level would be higher.
Bump steer; You have to measure it before you change it. My method is easy and inexpensive. You need a laser (one w/ a magnet is nice) and a 90 degree angle bracket, and a couple of clamps.
https://live.staticflickr.com/4835/46116534764_ed9f73872e_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2dgai7m)IMG_20130428_162158_880 (https://flic.kr/p/2dgai7m) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
I run a ratchet strap through the steering wheel spokes to lock it down. I shoot the laser sideways because, if you shoot it towards the front, the wheel actually moves in and out a little as it goes through it's travel which could be mistaken for toe change. I remove one of the coil over mount bolts so the spindle can easily be moved through it's range. A dot laser is a little easier but I had a line laser so I used the level to orient the line vertical so I could easily see movement. Don't worry about needing to read small movement. This was an old MkII roadster and it started out w/ the laser moving nearly three inches. The best I ever got it was about 1/2 inch. BTW, if you have a choice you want toe out in bump and toe in in droop. Toe out in bump means the heavily loaded outside tire will steer a little less than you expect which is much easier to deal w/ than getting more steering than you wanted.
Driving in AX; This will get easier as you do more of it. JR mentioned a steady gas in slaloms. 100% agree. If you are on and off the gas, the car rocks forward and back, transfers weight forward and back, and that messes up your cornering. As you walk the course, at every slalom count steps from cone to cone. Nothing special, just walk like you always do. They are usually around 30 of my steps. What you want to know is does the length between cones change. If it does you have to adapt that steady gas. This will get easier w/ more seat time but you need to be thinking at least one turn ahead. A quick example; imagine a 4 cone slalom that is followed by another 4 cone slalom and they are both in the same direction and they are both a little faster than usual and there is a 100ft gap between the 2 slaloms. But the second slalom is offset by 50 ft from the first. So you hold that steady throttle through the first 4 cones and it feels great. But now you have only 100ft to move 50ft sideways. It is easy to tell the experienced from the novices. The novices try to make that jog, realize they are too fast and their entrance into that second slalom is an oohhhh craaaap, oh, oh, OK I made it. The experienced drivers eased out of the gas a little early at the end of the first slalom, made the jog, and were back on the gas as they passed the first cone in the second slalom. I hope you stick w/ it because AXs can be super rewarding and it may never come up, but I have had 4 or 5 situations on the road where my AX experience absolutely saved the day. 2 of them my wife was w/ me and I will never forget her comment after the second one. We got maybe 1/4 mile beyond the problem and she turns to me and asks, how the he11 did you do that? I said, I guess all those AXs paid off.

[RoadRacer]

Roll; I agree you have WAY too much. I couldn't find specs for the springs, and even if I did that would be just spring rate vs wheel rate which is what really matters. But, since bars seem to be hard to do, you could increase spring rate. I like Eibachs but actually use the QA1 Hi Travel springs as they are less expensive. I'd think about almost doubling whatever the stock spring is. (data point = roadsters had 450 or 500 fronts and I run 800). Do the fronts first. Don't worry about the usual thought that stiffer reduces grip so changing the fronts only will cause understeer. It can also reduce roll so much that it reduces camber loss which will reduce understeer. And more F spring will; reduce dive under braking and; make the car feel more responsive to steering input.

Thanks Craig, this is great feedback. Stiffer springs are needed at the back already. Once I have at least one sway bar I'll play with springs. VPM may be the easiest answer for the rear sway bar - they have a roadster 3 link setup that I'm hoping I can modify to my car (also 3 link). They've been super helpful.


Camber; affects tire grip. Anything up to about 3.5 maybe 4.0 deg negative increases grip. So, for instance, say the stiffer springs do cause too much understeer, leave the springs and crank in more camber. Think like this. If your car has perfect handling balance w/ F and R camber at -1.0, you could change it to F and R = -3.0 and the handling balance would be the same but the overall grip level would be higher.

Yes.. at least for now I'll be dialing in WAY more static camber for the next event. I was hoping that the high caster would be giving me sufficient camber when turning, but the photos show that didn't work as well as I'd hoped.


Driving in AX; This will get easier as you do more of it. JR mentioned a steady gas in slaloms. 100% agree. If you are on and off the gas, the car rocks forward and back, transfers weight forward and back, and that messes up your cornering. This will get easier w/ more seat time but you need to be thinking at least one turn ahead.

As you say, I'll get better quickly as I do more events. The first couple I was way too confident, went sideways through most corners and was overcooking everything. I'm calming down and getting better at 'seeing' the imaginary line - and more importantly, I'm getting better at remembering it when driving!

Thanks again, this is priceless advice.

[J R Jones]

James/Craig, I expect you have read the data guy NAZ. In another thread we discussed suspension and he knew the UCA rocker ratio to be 1.37:1. That number can identify your wheel rate.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?40563-Koni-Shock-Spring-Rates

Caveat here, that included a discussion about harsh ride characteristics and spring and shock rates for you to anticipate the compromises.
NAZ customized a Mustang/Pinto kit for bump steer.
BTW Craig, some Hot Rod guys are running 8* caster, and as you have noted, that is a challenge in AX without power steering. I do not know if James' SBC is cast iron or aluminum (weight)

Here is a concept: If your UCA had a lateral range of pivot points, you could adjust wheel rate without changing the spring/shock.
jim

[RoadRacer]

James/Craig, I expect you have read the data guy NAZ. In another thread we discussed suspension and he knew the UCA rocker ratio to be 1.37:1. That number can identify your wheel rate.
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?40563-Koni-Shock-Spring-Rates

Caveat here, that included a discussion about harsh ride characteristics and spring and shock rates for you to anticipate the compromises.
NAZ customized a Mustang/Pinto kit for bump steer.
BTW Craig, some Hot Rod guys are running 8* caster, and as you have noted, that is a challenge in AX without power steering. I do not know if James' SBC is cast iron or aluminum (weight)

Here is a concept: If your UCA had a lateral range of pivot points, you could adjust wheel rate without changing the spring/shock.
jim

Jim, the recommended caster is 4º for manual steering and 8º for power. I'm running an unusually high caster (on purpose), but this is not normal, FYI. I have a good ol heavy cast iron block and heads :D

[J R Jones]

James, So not the LS engine, more like the LB engine.
I have a fresh 1968 Corvette 300hp 327 for sale (13K miles) and cannot get any offers. Everyone wants non-ferrous.
Craig made an interesting observation that high caster lifts the car on the inside and drops the car on the outside, contributing to the effort.
jim

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[CraigS]

Yep -camber gain via caster is a nice thing to have but it's effect is limited. Unless a car is grossly understeering, the steering is turned so little that the gain is only on turn entry. Notes on judging handling balance. It is best done in a longer duration turn so that you can separate out the turn entry part and concentrate on what is happening in the middle of the turn w/ just enough gas to maintain speed. Different courses can require a different balance. Slaloms are faster w/ slight understeer, tight turns are usually faster w/ a less understeer, so how many of each type turn does today's course have. If one thinks his car is understeering, be sure it isn't caused by an overly aggressive bonzai turn entry. If you are having trouble in turn X, ask others how their car is doing in turn X. If everyone's car is pushing in turn X it may be the surface, or surface camber, so change how you drive it rather than change the car.

[J R Jones]

I'll take this opportunity to pontificate on another geometric influence...Akerman.
Akerman is the configuration of the steering arms and the wheelbase to turn the inner wheel more than the outer wheel and therefore match the turn radius. In street cars this minimizes tire squeal in tight turns.
Back in the day the racing wisdom was that with small turning angles and power-drift/oversteer, Akerman was not advantageous. I took it out of my BP Shelby, but I could not identify a difference (season to season).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_steering_geometry

The tight turning radius of AX brings questions to mind:
Is Akerman advantageous?
What if the is Akerman appropriate for the donor car? Too much, too little?
Does Akerman reduce understeer?
Does Akerman hinder understeer (high slip angle) recovery?

Of all the modifications one can do for performance, I think changing Akerman is at the bottom of the list. Perhaps too much Akerman would raise it a couple of places.
jim

[RoadRacer]

I spent a few minutes under the car last night trying to think in 3 dimensions and came to the conclusion that with minor modifications I can fit the VPM 3-link sway bar (http://www.vintageperformancemotorcars.com/3-link.htm). It's built for the roadster 3-link, but the measurements seem the same - and critically will work around my banana bracket. I just placed an order, so we'll see how it goes - I'll obviously post pics here.

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[J R Jones]

James, Nice hardware, appropriate diameter and adjustable hardware.
It looks like a rear bar for a live axle?
Looks like there may be a short cut mount scheme to do a quick evaluation.
jim

[RoadRacer]

James, Nice hardware, appropriate diameter and adjustable hardware.
It looks like a rear bar for a live axle?
Looks like there may be a short cut mount scheme to do a quick evaluation.
jim

Yep, exactly. It's formulated for the Cobra 3-link which looks almost identical to the 3-link under the hotrod, so fingers crossed.

[j33ptj]

Is this for the rear or the front?

[RoadRacer]

Is this for the rear or the front?

The rear. It’s not ideal to start with the rear, or have only one bar, but it looks an easy mod and I can start on full soft to limit the oversteer.. and I’m also planning wider stickier rear tires so that will counteract the oversteer. Getting the roll under some control is my #1 focus.

[CraigS]

The VPM bar is definitely a nice piece. I made mine easily adjustable. The bolt that goes through the aluminum sliding block got a fender washer tack welded under the head. A portion of the washer was bent over the edge of the al block so the bolt wouldn't turn. I lay down beside the rear wheel and reached in w/ a gear wrench to loosen the nut. Slide the block an inch, and tighten the nut. Do the same on the other side. I kept the gear wrench wrapped up in a bath towel I stuffed behind the seat. I could lay on the towel and adjust the bar in maybe 3 minutes between AX runs. As you assemble the rod end to the block stick a small o-ring on one side of the rod end. The block will clamp tight on the bar but there may be a small amount of play where the rod end can slide around on the bolt. You would be surprised how much racket .010 inch of play makes in normal driving.

[RoadRacer]

Thanks Craig, good tips.

[RoadRacer]

Today’s experiment is to trade straight line stability for fast corners. I’ve been running high caster to help on high speed bumpy/wavy roads, but obviously it resists cornering. Tonight I wound caster back to 3.5deg to see how it feels.. yes definitely lighter steering but cornering much improved. I need to put more miles on it this week but wanted to make this change before the rear sway bar comes, so I’m not changing too much at once.

There are a couple of long sweeping ~75mph corners near me that I’m convinced the car could do at 90 with the right setup. Forever learning!

[33fromSD]

Today’s experiment is to trade straight line stability for fast corners. I’ve been running high caster to help on high speed bumpy/wavy roads, but obviously it resists cornering. Tonight I wound caster back to 3.5deg to see how it feels.. yes definitely lighter steering but cornering much improved. I need to put more miles on it this week but wanted to make this change before the rear sway bar comes, so I’m not changing too much at once.

There are a couple of long sweeping ~75mph corners near me that I’m convinced the car could do at 90 with the right setup. Forever learning!

Hi James

Just curious, did you leave camber at -.5 deg as you had it set originally or did you tweak that slightly too?

Jim

[RoadRacer]

Left that the same Jim. I try to change just one thing each time.

[33fromSD]

Left that the same Jim. I try to change just one thing each time.

Sounds good, I think -.5 deg is the sweet spot anyways

Jim

[RoadRacer]

Good day today.. got the VPM rear sway bar almost installed.

Bolting it up to the 3 link rear was easy, and a perfect fit. And yes it does fit without touching anything.. but it's close!

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I decided to attach the end link to the upper shock mount, so I made up a bracket to fit. Note that these pics are all at full droop.. I'll post more when I'm back at ride height tomorrow, and that's when I'll do final fit. The bar is obviously adjustable, and I still might want a longer end link (easy at speedway (https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Aluminum-Swedged-Rods-3-8-24-Threads,5891.html?sku=910351-8))

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For the eagle-eyed amongst you, while I was in there I removed my shocks and added another bump stop.

[RoadRacer]

Here are the sway bars as I drove it this morning. I'm considering whether I want to keep as-is, with the end link ~90º to the sway bar, or to get a longer end link and have the sway bar more horizontal. Given the cheapness of the speedway links, I'm leaning (no pun intended) towards getting 7" bars (2" longer) as a compromise - and it'll give a little more clearance around the banana brace and shocks.

This is at about the "half stiffness" setting.

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I drove pretty steadily this morning, just to make sure it all "worked", no rubbing etc, so didn't go over 90mph :D. I already think the double bump-stops should be mandatory on these cars though.. rode much better over my big dip roads.

[J R Jones]

James, changing to longer links is an aesthetic decision, it does not change performance. Sliding in or out on the ARB arms will have a big influence. Likely adjustments are easier with the arms flat.
If you have a digital angle/level and a big flat expanse of pavement, you could measure body roll at fixed speed and turn radius, like a skid pad.
You could also put tie wrap indicators on the rear shock rods and measure difference after turning hard in one direction.
In the end I predict the magnitude of oversteer will determine your set-up.
jim

[RoadRacer]

James, changing to longer links is an aesthetic decision, it does not change performance. Sliding in or out on the ARB arms will have a big influence. Likely adjustments are easier with the arms flat.
If you have a digital angle/level and a big flat expanse of pavement, you could measure body roll at fixed speed and turn radius, like a skid pad.
You could also put tie wrap indicators on the rear shock rods and measure difference after turning hard in one direction.
In the end I predict the magnitude of oversteer will determine your set-up.
jim

Yes some aesthetic but it will also move away from the shock adjustment collar and banana bracket. I expect to run quite stiff (ie short bar) so I think I may need some extra length to do that.

[RoadRacer]

BTW, for those building a 33 with a TKO600.. don't use the "obvious" driver's side speedo sensor. Buy this pigtail (https://www.speedwaymotors.com/TREMEC-9114-Electric-Speedometer-Harness-for-GM-TKO-Transmission,69157.html)and use it on the passenger side.

I used all the parts I got from Fortes, with the funny plastic gear, and it broke somehow within a few thousand miles. The speedo started registering only 0 or 80mph. I just switched to the other side, and now it's steady as a rock. I had no idea there were two speed takeoffs until I asked FFR about this issue.

This is the one NOT to use..

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[HVACMAN]

Good day today.. got the VPM rear sway bar almost installed.

Bolting it up to the 3 link rear was easy, and a perfect fit. And yes it does fit without touching anything.. but it's close!

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I decided to attach the end link to the upper shock mount, so I made up a bracket to fit. Note that these pics are all at full droop.. I'll post more when I'm back at ride height tomorrow, and that's when I'll do final fit. The bar is obviously adjustable, and I still might want a longer end link (easy at speedway (https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Aluminum-Swedged-Rods-3-8-24-Threads,5891.html?sku=910351-8))

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For the eagle-eyed amongst you, while I was in there I removed my shocks and added another bump stop.

It appears this should fit a four link set up too. Maybe??

[RoadRacer]

From my understanding of a four link, yes. But feel free to post pics here. 3 link is more complex with the banana brace and panhard bar framework - but you have none of that right? So it’ll fit for you but it will be asymmetrical. Not a problem functionally though.

[RoadRacer]

Omg the car handled amazingly at the track today. Did a Track Night in America event at Harris Hill south of Austin and it’s a great track. The car performed flawlessly. Very neutral handling.. as the (old) tires lost grip at end of each session it was still just drifting rather than under/over steering. Very happy.

The sway bar and extra camber (1.4deg) worked great. I’ll wait on the photos but the roll seemed more under control.

One of the faster cars and was catching and overtaking each session. Stock Brakes even held up for each 15-20min session.

One weird thing.. on the procession lap my friend was behind me and said the my “rear wheel was wobbling all over the place” - bear in mind I’m many miles on this now - and I felt nothing. Anyway I jacked it up, used my growler as a reference and spun the wheel.. yep it’s 1/4” out of true! I bought rear end from junkyard and wheels from Craigslist so one of those two things got bent somehow before I got them. I still did the event and will look into this at weekend. So odd though..

[RoadRacer]

We’ll I swapped a front and rear wheel.. and it has the same 1/4” wobble! So.. and I know little about solid rears.. I guess it’s an axle (what I’d call a driveshaft but that’s used differently here) that’s bent? Is that common from curbing for example?

I did get it literally from a junkyard..

Sounds like a pain to fix?

[33fromSD]

We’ll I swapped a front and rear wheel.. and it has the same 1/4” wobble! So.. and I know little about solid rears.. I guess it’s an axle (what I’d call a driveshaft but that’s used differently here) that’s bent? Is that common from curbing for example?

I did get it literally from a junkyard..

Sounds like a pain to fix?

Not too hard to fix at all.

1) Remove your caliper & rotor
2) Drain differential and remove the differential cover
3) on the 3rd member there is a large cross pin held in by lock bolt (I've attached a pic showing where those are)
4) Spin the ring gear enough to see the ends of the axle shaft & remove the C-clip from the end of the axle shaft (there may be a rubber o-ring holding in the clip (some had them, some didn't)
5) Slide out old axle
6) As long as the axle is removed I would replace the seal at the end of the rear end
7) carefully slide in the new axle and reverse steps 5 to 1

Pretty straight forward (couple hour job) and with running it pretty hard on the track as you have been, you now get new fresh gear oil too. :o

Pic of Differential Cross Pin & locking bolt
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Jim

[33fromSD]

By the way, "if" you left the ABS sensor on when you got the rear end from the junk yard, you'll need to remove that ABS sensor so you can push the axle in slightly to remove the c-clip. The c-clip just slides into a groove machined into the end of the axle

Jim

[RoadRacer]

Thanks Jim, yeah I did take it apart when I bought it, to clean/paint etc so I've done it once. Handy steps though. The rest of my racing life has been IRS or transaxles. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, should I go to local parts store and get a straight replacement? I never thought I needed anything special for a light car and ~300hp..

Another dumb question, but I'll ask anyway(!) - I don't need to buy a set, do I?

Befor I do anything though, I'm going to rule out the rotor being the problem, I realized overnight that it's conceivable the wobble could be there too.

[sread]

Hey James - I'm a little surprised the hotrod would pass tech for a track day. No issues on that? I assume there are pretty structured rules for passing. How are different cars grouped together for the sessions?
I have done many track days on motorcycles at most of the Texas tracks but never made it to Harris Hill - I had heard it has gotten pretty rough the last few years.

[33fromSD]

Thanks Jim, yeah I did take it apart when I bought it, to clean/paint etc so I've done it once. Handy steps though. The rest of my racing life has been IRS or transaxles. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, should I go to local parts store and get a straight replacement? I never thought I needed anything special for a light car and ~300hp..

Another dumb question, but I'll ask anyway(!) - I don't need to buy a set, do I?

Befor I do anything though, I'm going to rule out the rotor being the problem, I realized overnight that it's conceivable the wobble could be there too.

If it turns out you confirm it's a bent axle, personally, I'd go with a set. You wouldn't necessarily have to though. Local parts store may have one, worst case they need to order it and it will take a couple days to get. If your going to replace the set then knowing you track it, you may want to look online for a set which is a little stronger from someone like Moser or Curry, etc.. Not cheap though.

You can even get sets that eliminate the need for the C-Clip.

Good luck

Jim

[Big-boss]

I would go with anew set...One of the cheaper things you will buy...Aftermarket as well...They are old and they were in a heavier car...But you are doing more to them than what they were designed to do...Have you ever seem one break? It makes for a real bad day...

[RoadRacer]

Hey James - I'm a little surprised the hotrod would pass tech for a track day. No issues on that? I assume there are pretty structured rules for passing. How are different cars grouped together for the sessions?
I have done many track days on motorcycles at most of the Texas tracks but never made it to Harris Hill - I had heard it has gotten pretty rough the last few years.

Never had any problem at autocross or this TNIA. This one was “fill in a form” - no one looked at my car. But the only thing I’d ever worry about was the roof. Does it qualify as a roof? Debatable. But no one has yet questioned me on that.

Harris hill is one of the best “amateur” tracks I’ve been on.. and I did a lot in Europe. They resurfaced last year, and they have some technical corners that a lot of people were doing wrong!

I ran with the novice pack and it was strictly point2pass in 3 zones. Two higher classes for those who’d been before. TNIA is of course much lower key - not racing, not even timed. But we were still able to get good sessions in. We had 3 or 4 20min sessions.

[RoadRacer]

I would go with anew set...One of the cheaper things you will buy...Aftermarket as well...They are old and they were in a heavier car...But you are doing more to them than what they were designed to do...Have you ever seem one break? It makes for a real bad day...

Thanks. No the closest to seeing one break was my GT40 at Barcelona Catalunya circuit. After the sessions were over my friend and I decided to drag race the straight while no one was watching. He had a caterham seven. He would always beat me on corners and I’d roar past him on straights, but we had no idea who would win a drag race. But we never found out.. my hot sticky 335’s snapped my drive shaft on launch. ;)

It was weird making all the right noises but not moving at all..

The best part was I got a free week in swanky hotel in Barcelona while the RAC flew down a replacement driveshaft for me to fit. Holiday insurance is the best :)

[RoadRacer]

I had a slight problem with the sway bar, which requires some tuning :D

I was going to check it out this weekend and tighten everything up, but I was too slow by a day.

Yesterday on my last trip home I stopped into a store that had a sloping driveway, and as I turned in (slowly) obviously the inside and outside of the car are getting quite different loads.. and I heard a bang. I stopped in the parking lot thinking the tire or wheel or drove over something but it drove ok and I saw nothing so didn't look too hard.

This morning I walk past the garage and WTF..

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Not the greatest picture, but the passenger side is 2-3" higher than the driver's side. Uh-oh.

Underneath I can see why..

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The sway bar has spun on the rear end, and is now hard against the shock and the banana brace. It's also moved sideways an inch or so inside the bushing. All things I was concerned about when I saw the sway bar, but now I know. I'm no welder, so I'll brainstorm how to stop that spinning some other way. Going side-to-side I can stop by adding some bushings on either side. For now, I'll reset into position and tighten things up some more.. and pay more attention to loud noises...

I know this is a roadster part, so I'm curious if any owners have already seen this and have their own fixes?

[J R Jones]

James, I was fascinated by your comment yesterday about racing a GT40. We built and raced a GT40 MKIV in vintage for several years, 427 side oiler and all. pic attached
As GT40s have a transaxle, you broke an input shaft or an axle shaft? I assume axle.

I was not overwhelmed with your ARB mount design. Similar to muffler clamps for attachment. A welded solution is most appropriate.
A somewhat more robust solution would be a clamping collar that could be welded off-car with a ARB mount.
https://www.amazon.com/Climax-2C-300-Two-Piece-Clamping-Plating/dp/B0025Q1R9K/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=3+inch+bore+shaft+clamp+ring&qid=1631979491&s=industrial&sr=1-8

Not likely that you will find the appropriate ID.

As I mentioned previously you might consider attaching the ARB legs to your lower track bars, but that would sacrifice adjustability.
If you go the fabricate/weld route, disconnect the battery and ground the axle housing to avoid "sparking" through the axle bearings.
jim

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[RoadRacer]

Yes Jim, that was just how the sway bar came. Plenty of room for modification :D

And to be clear, my GT40 wasn't real.. a replica. I'm not rich ;). But I did 60,000 miles and most of the big-name European circuits with it.

[J R Jones]

James, Who's GT40 replica was yours?
I see a Mexican team ran an RCR GT40 replica in La Carrera Pan America last year and twisted the chassis. They are entered again this year.
We ran LCPA a few years ago in a 1954 Corvette re-creation of an original racer.
That is a long tough race, especially in an open two seat roadster.
jim

153491

[RoadRacer]

James, Who's GT40 replica was yours?
I see a Mexican team ran an RCR GT40 replica in La Carrera Pan America last year and twisted the chassis. They are entered again this year.
We ran LCPA a few years ago in a 1954 Corvette re-creation of an original racer.
That is a long tough race, especially in an open two seat roadster.
jim

153491

The best in the mid 90's was GT Developments ("GTD") in Poole, UK. That's what I had.. a spaceframe but worked well.

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[RoadRacer]

Couple ideas about the sway bar. I'm not a fan of the 3/8-24 u-bolt since that can only be torqued to 25-30lbs, doesn't seem much clamping force. So I'm looking at 9/16 u-bolts to replace them.

I also noticed that the lower shock mount is right alongside and almost in line, so - although far from ideal - by welding a bar or box section as shown below it would help stop rotation. I feel like it should be welded, not bolted, and that would allow a strengthening rib down it. Any other ideas come to mind? Of course, there is welding to the rear end directly, but then they'd have to know what they were doing..

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[J R Jones]

James, As I mentioned welded brackets are preferred.
A clamp-on alternative might be to have four clamp blocks machined using your current saddle clamp as a pattern. You could double them up, replacing the "U" bolt and clamp them together with conventional grade 5 bolts. The increased surface area and clamp load might stay in place. 6061 aluminum would be appropriate.
jim

[RoadRacer]

ordered my new axle shafts.. should have them in 10-14 days. Fingers crossed.

Here's a video of the fastest lap I did at the local Harris Hill track near Kyle. My first time there, and you can hear my 2016 and 2018 date code tires not being very happy :) Looking forward to using up the last bit of tread and getting something new and sticky. My local autox club put me onto this excellent article on the subject of which tire": Ultimate track tire guide | 200tw, 100tw, street-legal track and R-comps (https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/track-tire-buyers-guide/)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBRgCMZEiS8

[33fromSD]

ordered my new axle shafts.. should have them in 10-14 days. Fingers crossed.

Here's a video of the fastest lap I did at the local Harris Hill track near Kyle. My first time there, and you can hear my 2016 and 2018 date code tires not being very happy :) Looking forward to using up the last bit of tread and getting something new and sticky. My local autox club put me onto this excellent article on the subject of which tire": Ultimate track tire guide | 200tw, 100tw, street-legal track and R-comps (https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/track-tire-buyers-guide/)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBRgCMZEiS8

On the axle shafts James, did you stick with the OEM axles or upgrade to after market?

Jim

[RoadRacer]

I went up just a smidge Jim

https://www.jegs.com/i/Alloy-USA/013/12187/10002/-1

[33fromSD]

Nice....

Price isn't bad either considering you get the axles, lug studs and seals.

Jim

[sread]

That was great! Love to see the vids of the hot rod being driven hard. I bet you got a lot of interest in the pits - especially after seeing how well the car went.

[RoadRacer]

That was great! Love to see the vids of the hot rod being driven hard. I bet you got a lot of interest in the pits - especially after seeing how well the car went.

LOL, yes it's funny. Same at autocross. Everyone is mouths open, like WTH? I think most people don't initially realize it's a modern chassis underneath. In a sea of miatas and beemers and even vettes it kinda stands out :D

I'm having a blast! And in 7 months and many miles I think I've washed it once.. ;)

[RoadRacer]

Some professional photos from TNIA.. Looking at photo 5, I still need a front sway bar.. and maybe even more static camber.

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I do like the last one, as I go over the blind hill at sunset.

[RoadRacer]

BTW, I probably didn't say so, but the car drove much faster around corners than before at autocross. Just by adding rear sway bar.

You can even see the difference.

Before

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After

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I'm leaning (lol) towards stiffer springs all around next. Then finally I'll look for front sway.

[Big-boss]

Squealing tires are Happy Tires :)

[RoadRacer]

After seeing how cheap springs were(!) I ordered a set.. up 40% all around. 350lbs front, 550 rear.. should be fun :D

[RoadRacer]

Got the front springs on yesterday.. Jegs 9", 550lb. $40 each is crazy cheap. Went straight on, you don't need to remove shocks or anything complex. ~15minutes a side.

8" would have been better, but they didn't have that option. I had to wind collar ALL the way down, was 1.8" up from the bottom, now at 0". I'm still at 5.25" ride height at the front, due to that extra inch of spring and less compression.

I already love it more, less roll, stiffer, better steering. Everything tightened up. But yes, it's not for many people. Most go lighter springs and more comfortable :)

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[FF33rod]

The kit came with 500s on the front didn't it? (maybe it was 400s). I went down to 220s and like it much better on the street....

Steve

[RoadRacer]

The kit came with 500s on the front didn't it? (maybe it was 400s). I went down to 220s and like it much better on the street....

Steve

yeah, standard is 400's on front, 250 on back.

I'm moving to 550, 350 (+40% both)

[RoadRacer]

Note to anyone watching.. the 9" springs would work normally, but I recommend anyone buys the 7" if going with stiffer springs. I'm having to return my 9" 350lb rears because that extra inch, plus less compression, puts the collar into very close proximity with the sway bar. So I'm going with 7" instead.

[J R Jones]

James, Did you resolve your rear ARB mounting issue? What did you do?
jim

[RoadRacer]

James, Did you resolve your rear ARB mounting issue? What did you do?
jim

Nothing yet, still on my todo list. Snugged it up that time and hasn't moved since.

[RoadRacer]

"fun" time with parts this last couple weeks. I ordered new axles from Jegs to replace my bent one. 2 days later the order got canceled - the parts were discontinued. Did it again with different parts. Same happened.

This went on 4 times, each time with customer service help.. they placed the orders after "triple-checking" the parts were ok, and in stock. 4 orders were canceled and 10 days wasted.

Finally, a set of axles arrives! Hoorah, just in time for the weekend...

..this is what I saw when I opened the box. The axles came with a bag of new studs, bearings and seals.. but still had an old set of studs semi-installed (3 were loose)

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Obviously these aren't new axles. At best, someone has returned them after starting to install them. Are these new or used? No one knows. Jegs are baffled, and the manufacturer just wants to send new ones out. But after 5 sets, I'm done with jegs. I ordered a set from Summit, which shipped same day (Friday) and are arriving Monday. So I lose a weekend, but Jegs have lost my business forever after this disaster.

On a lighter note, I installed the 7" 350lb rear springs today (yes, shorted than the stock 8", they didn't have 8" option) - works great and gives me even more clearance for the sway bar! Of course, stiffer, so I'm hoping to be cornering even quicker.

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I also ordered my new wheels so I can get off this temporary set and get the tires I wanted. Went for Forgestar CF5V in 19x10 and 19x13, with 295/30r19 and 355/30r19 Michelin PS4S which apparently are a great dual road/race tire until I get some slicks.

[RoadRacer]

The new wheels arrived!

Tires are coming next month or so when I'm a bit closer to the wear line on my current temp set.

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[33fromSD]

N-I-C-E James!!

I'm sure glad I'm not the only person who uses the dining room table for photos or projects. A few years back, the day before Thanks Giving in which we were hosting about 30 people I decided to rebuild my 70 challenger dashboard on the dining room table. We'll just leave it at my wife was thrilled with me. :rolleyes:

Jim

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[RoadRacer]

Hooray, after many miles with a slightly bent axle (I didn't know for most of those) I finally got some replacements from Summit and got them fitted this weekend. No more squeaky brake on that side (The bent hub was wearing out the pad clips fast by moving the pads in and out every revolution!)

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Here's what the pads looked like, one side to another:

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Pretty straightforward job, even though I hadn't done it before. Installing the studs in the axles was the hardest part - I did it with one of those stud install bearings (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07D9V5Y45?ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details&th=1) but even so I stripped 5-6 nuts pulling them through with the impact wrench. Only had weak crappy nuts lying around, but it was better that they sacrificed themselves than damaged the studs :D

I don't have a press and certainly didn't want to be hitting them in and end up with another bent one.. anyway, all done now.

Also tried my spacers on (they also convert from 5x114.3 to 6x114.3) and the wheel to make sure it fitted as planned - it did. My old 19x10 285/35 for comparison.

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One slight SNAFU - when I ordered I must have been distracted and ordered the spacers with the correct specs except the studs.. which came as 12-1.5, not 1/2-20, so I'll change them out. But happy that they all fit correctly!

[progmgr1]

Maybe a dumb question, but did you remember to freeze the studs before installing? Makes going in a lot easier if they are shrunken down. Also, I had good luck using a bench vice and a piece of steel tube as a press for installing studs.

HTH Keith HR #894

[RoadRacer]

Maybe a dumb question, but did you remember to freeze the studs before installing? Makes going in a lot easier if they are shrunken down. Also, I had good luck using a bench vice and a piece of steel tube as a press for installing studs.

HTH Keith HR #894

No I didn't realize that would make such a difference. I did initially wonder about the vice idea.. in hindsight I wish I'd done that. Lesson learned.. I've only done this stud installation once before, many moons ago.

[RoadRacer]

For those that are interested in the VPM rear sway bar (and in my opinion, it's so awesome and easy you all should be!) I added a tweak to the setup today. I had noticed that the bar can walk a little sideways in the bushings over time. This may not be an issue in the roadster that it was designed for, but on the 33, there is very little room on driver's side for sideways movement, see below..

155084

To be clear, it's never walked enough to touch either the chassis or the shock, but I don't want to take that chance!

I'd previously marked the bar like this, so I could see any movement easily

155085

Anyway, here's my attempted fix, we'll see if it works as well as I hope: a couple of 3/4" collars (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09GMNYG9M?ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details&th=1)

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BTW, for those following along - I've never again had the problem where the sway bar bracket spun on the rear end in the first week, so I'm not planning to fix a problem I may never have again.

[RoadRacer]

Huzzah! Time to get serious, I finally got new tires.. and the date codes (2721) were amazing! I'm always nervous about datecodes on new fancy tires. But 27th week of 2021 (July), is frankly way better than expected!

The 295 are a little wider than the old 285, but the 355's are MUCH nicer. And sticky AF, compared to my hard-as-a-rock 2016/2018 tires.

Can't wait to try these out.

Before and After:

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I was very impressed with the local mobile fitment guy - if you're around Austin you should use him. https://www.facebook.com/GoMobileTiresAustin

He has better equipment than any tire shop I've ever seen. His equipment didn't ever touch my wheels. Fascinating to watch.

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[RoadRacer]

Been having fun on the new tires - certainly grippier! I can't be very quantifiable though - my next race (autox) is Dec 5th.

My engine needs some tuning.. been fine so far, but I've noticed some changes. Harder to keep going and easier to stall when cold for the first 10 mins (it's a carb), and also started popping through exhaust when decelerating. Unburnt fuel.

So I have it on my list to check plugs, timing, mixture, probably next weekend (a 4 day weekend!)

Oh, and I quickly fitted a manual choke cable today before the Grand Prix, just to help out with the cold running.

[Iziks]

Love the tire and wheel combo! We’re the spacers needed for fitment purposes, or simply to covert to six lug? Any other mods to get those to fit.

[RoadRacer]

Love the tire and wheel combo! We’re the spacers needed for fitment purposes, or simply to covert to six lug? Any other mods to get those to fit.

Yeah, there are very few wheels this size (for this price), and all have similar offsets. I needed a 2" spacer to use these, and I believe have the widest rear available. Others rears are narrower, so would need more.

3-piece wheels (https://www.hrewheels.com/wheels/series-s2h/s200h)can of course be made any offset, but they're a lot more money. I did that once before, but this time around I went for the lower-cost option. And since I needed 5-to-6 lug anyway (the wheels are only made for viper).. the spacers made more sense.

With the spacers, no other mods are required.

[RoadRacer]

Sunday was my 4th autocross event - car was much better suspension-wise. I had added stiffer springs and a rear sway bar since my previous event, and you could see that the roll was much reduced. Here's the video of my best run:
b

https://youtu.be/3Gov_D_B5FA

And some photos from the professional photographer that always attends - very helpful because you can really see how the car sits on very fast corners - photo #3 was at fastest part of the course.

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158370 158371 158372

Now, I still think the car is showing a little positive camber on corners, so I'm going to experiment with some more static negative camber. I want to see an upright tire at worst when cornering. It's much better, but look at #6.. sure looks like some positive camber there. I wish it was faster to adjust at the track so that the stopwatch could tell the story, but at autox there's very little time between runs. I'd have to play with that on a track day perhaps. Not sure when the next one is.

The VPM rear sway bar is still working well. Still was very easy to fit and use on the '33. I've also been talking to Gordon Levy about an Aero6 brake set 14" and 13" for next year which would make the world of difference on the track (and the road!)

[J R Jones]

James, The camber is not bad at the extreme, too much negative could have consequences when not at the extreme.
Any tire rub in back? Looks close.
jim

[RoadRacer]

Yeah no tire rub. I doubt I'll ever corner as violently on the street (or even a circuit) as I do in autox, so we're seeing it at its worst here.

Agreed, the camber isn't awful, but why not tweak it :D Always tweaking and experimenting - and I can always switch it back (as I did with my extreme caster trials at one point)

[RoadRacer]

I've only just started logging gallons and mileage every time I fill up, in a spreadsheet to calculate my average mpg. Of course I'm probably the worst type of driver, very lead foot, daily driving, and a double pumper carb. But still, only a mild 350, most people guess around 300hp (but we don't know what the motor has in it).

Anyway, thought it'd be interesting. My current average (so far taken over 642 miles and 8 fillups) is 10.7mpg

Something surprising - I always thought the FFR tank was 13.5g. It still says that on the website (https://www.factoryfive.com/33-hot-rod/design/) (I have the gen2 tank) - BUT I'VE NEVER GOT MORE THAN 10.6g INTO MY TANK. WTF? I fill up to the very tippy-top, and often on a slight slope forward so I literally fill it up. But I'm 3 gallons short.. :confused:

Has anyone ever measured the capacity? I've run out of gas on one occasion (I carry a 1g can in the trunk) so I don't think I'm filling 3g early...

[RoadRacer]

Well, I wondered if this problem was going to bite me, and here I am almost 4 years later scratching my head. This photo was taken in May 2017, in the first few weeks of the build.

159388

As you can see, I made the decision to put the LCA in with the bolt head between the bracket and the 3-link structure. The alternative was to cut the bolt shorter and use a lower-profile nut. There's not a lot of room here.

I'm fitting new LCA's from Levy Racing, so I have to fix this somehow. I really don't want to remove the entire 3-link structure and start over (probably the "correct" answer), but the only other way is to saw that bolt head off which is probably easier said than done.

Any suggestions?

Here's the new LCA's, FYI. They'll remove any binding in the old setup, allow me to straighten the angles, and like all rod-ends be less comfortable :D

159389

[J R Jones]

James, You talked me out of it.
The LCAs are part of the 3-link. Is the interfering tube a support for the LCA mount? This is engineering?
Can't you remove the support and relieve the side surface to make room for the bolt head?
jim

[RoadRacer]

James, You talked me out of it.
The LCAs are part of the 3-link. Is the interfering tube a support for the LCA mount? This is engineering?
Can't you remove the support and relieve the side surface to make room for the bolt head?
jim

The interfering tube is the part of the panhard bar support - a pretty big triangular structure bolted to the back of the chassis, whose only point is to mount one end of the panhard bar. What you see is one of the fixing points to the chassis - and it gives very little clearance. To remove this whole structure is a big job. (UPDATE:wrong!)

[RoadRacer]

Ok, I was wrong.. now I'm under the car and removing the old parts I can see that the panhard support is easy to remove. It's a big piece, but the bolts are all easily accessible. So, panic over :D

[RoadRacer]

Here we are, all fitted and tested. Much better. I supported the diff with a floor jack and removed the panhard structure, then drilled out the brackets (larger bolts) and fitted it all up. I just made the new LCA's the same length as the old for now.

If you look closely at the first pic you'll see that there are two different length spacers.. and they are reversed at each end which has the effect of (almost) making the LCA parallel to the car (in plan view that is).

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Oh, and one more thing. Since I had removed the panhard structure I thought I'd check that the rear was still centered. Obviously nothing should have moved since it was bolted back up where it came from, but I did do a shop alignment back in February which was the only time I've ever touched the rear alignment. All my alignment tweaks have been at the front. And guess what.. the rear was 3/4" off center, from the chassis center. the drivers side was further out than the passenger side. I cannot imagine just what effect that has on the handling, but it's centered now!

[RoadRacer]

Next in the long saga of "continuous improvement" I need to fix the steering (again). That last joint in the steering column that attached to the rack is never going to be good enough - there's just too much leverage in that long unsupported part. Everything I do to try and fix it eventually fails. Now I'm back to poor steering feel and wandering - no amount of tightening the grub screws helps anymore. I tried JBweld.. eventually failed. I need to support the end of this shaft with a bearing to solve the problem for good.

159517 159518

So I'm starting the hunt for the correct new joint with a longer side and the bearing itself. The PFL204 bearing is easy to find. The joint may be a little harder? Stay tuned

[RoadRacer]

or actually - even easier, at least as a proof-of-concept - I could just find a 3/4" bearing and put it over the shaft itself. Worth trying and seeing how it works..

159552

..so I ordered a $10 allstar heim joint (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006K8N5WQ?psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&ref_=chk_typ_imgToDp) and will bend up a bracket.

[RoadRacer]

Had to significantly adjust and tighten my brake balance bar today - now I have what seems like a new braking system! Read the details.. (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?41770-Tighten-your-Balance-Bar!) but pics here for my reference.

159595 159596

[RoadRacer]

Finished my mod for supporting the front-most section of the steering column, and I'm very happy with the results so far.

I didn't have any suitable stock, so I found an old bed frame bracket (I have a bin full of old brackets) and modified that to work.. so this whole thing just cost $11 for the Heim joint :D

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I may replace the rivets with nutserts as needed, but I wanted to try the KISS option first. I have to say, this seems such a simple fix for such a PITA recurring problem.

[RoadRacer]

The next autocross just posted a new event at a new location, where the sound levels are limited to 85db at 75 feet. Pretty strict, so I used an iPhone app to measure my car at 75 feet at 5000 rpm. It was 87db.. but of course these are approximate numbers, no idea how accurate it is.

So I ordered some supertrapp clamp-ons (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUP-344-2005) to try and damp the sound down a little. We'll see!

160046

Has anyone ever had their car measured for sound levels? I know some tracks do this, but I've never been to one who actually did it before!

[J R Jones]

James,
I looked back for photos of your car. It looks like your tailpipes aim out, ahead of the rear tires.
When we had to comply with exhaust specs at race tracks competitors found just directing the exhaust away from the meter was significant in passing the test. Alternatively, directing the exhaust down toward the pavement was an improvement.
jim

[RoadRacer]

James,
I looked back for photos of your car. It looks like your tailpipes aim out, ahead of the rear tires.
When we had to comply with exhaust specs at race tracks competitors found just directing the exhaust away from the meter was significant in passing the test. Alternatively, directing the exhaust down toward the pavement was an improvement.
jim

Gotcha, unfortunately the meters are placed on the fence line so there's little I can do other than point it downwards.. but I'll try these temporary addons first

[RoadRacer]

Well the supertrapps were a big failure - but everything is worth an experiment!

I went with something simple, a clamp-on 3" diffuser (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUP-344-2005) and sure enough they fitted easily so I fitted on one side, and left off the other, so I could hear the difference. Here's some video:


https://youtu.be/N1tLfFHJjs0

Of course, MUCH quieter. Even at 5000rpm the sound meter on my phone measured 5db less (which is a lot)

And then I drove it. Or tried to. Although obvious in hindsight, this was WAY too restrictive. My car would hardly accelerate. It was very noticeable and completely undrivable. I yanked them off quickly in case I damaged the motor and returned them to summit. Maybe 4" or 5" ones would work, but they don't come in the same clamp-on 2 or 2.5" style and quickly get more expensive. Maybe an experiment for another day.

Next, I ran down to O'Reilly's and got some real cheaply bent 45º exhaust tips, and will clamp them on instead and test the sound levels again. The idea (as JR suggested above) is to point the exhaust downwards/backwards towards tire (I'll try both). But I'll have to do that another day because the wind alone today is 80db!

160249 160248

[RoadRacer]

Oh well, 0 for 2 on the sound experiments - the down pipe made the car LOUDER! I measured 80db on the normal side and 82db on the down pipe side (75 ft, 5000rpm). So.... I guess I'm going to the track in stock mode and see what happens :D

[33fromSD]

Oh well, 0 for 2 on the sound experiments - the down pipe made the car LOUDER! I measured 80db on the normal side and 82db on the down pipe side (75 ft, 5000rpm). So.... I guess I'm going to the track in stock mode and see what happens :D

Sounds odd, but what if you put a 90* pipe on and pointed them straight up in the air? Pointing out the side or down, echos / directs the sound at objects (either at people if pointed to the side or echos off the ground if pointed down) but pointed up spreads the sound up and oddly may dissipate it some. Just a thunk. :rolleyes:

Jim

[RoadRacer]

Sounds odd, but what if you put a 90* pipe on and pointed them straight up in the air? Pointing out the side or down, echos / directs the sound at objects (either at people if pointed to the side or echos off the ground if pointed down) but pointed up spreads the sound up and oddly may dissipate it some. Just a thunk. :rolleyes:

Jim

Yes, worth trying!

[J R Jones]

James, Your turn down tail pipes look like 45 degree, we used 90 degree, the objective was to direct the noise away from the meter. Alternative directions are a crap shoot.
FWIW we never directed the exhaust toward the tire tread. Any engine problem could blow something wet on the tread and reduce traction.
Pinching the exhaust tip car reduce noise somewhat.
jim

160545

[Big-boss]

Jim, quick question if you don't mind: When you are tracking your car, does the rear tires rub the body? What kind of travel do you have in the back? Thanks

[RoadRacer]

Jim, quick question if you don't mind: When you are tracking your car, does the rear tires rub the body? What kind of travel do you have in the back? Thanks

Not on the track, but it does occasionally (I could say regularly) on the street, at speed over bumps. I have a stretch of road around here (290 toll) that has some big dips, and at 90+ the tires do graze the body. That's with me balancing the ride height with my 40% stiffer springs. I could go higher rideheight, but don't want to. I'm running 350lb front, 550lb rear springs, all 7". The 9" are a bit long (but can work). I may even go stiffer springs at the front if I can't find a front sway bar.

The roll is controlled by stiffer springs and a VPM 3-link rear sway bar so it does look close on video but doesn't touch. Travel is hard to measure (I'd have to remove the springs) but it's still stock in that I haven't limited it physically in any way. I'm running 355/35r19's too, so it's quite a tall tire.

[Big-boss]

Thanks a bunch.

[HVACMAN]

Not on the track, but it does occasionally (I could say regularly) on the street, at speed over bumps. I have a stretch of road around here (290 toll) that has some big dips, and at 90+ the tires do graze the body. That's with me balancing the ride height with my 40% stiffer springs. I could go higher rideheight, but don't want to. I'm running 350lb front, 550lb rear springs, all 7". The 9" are a bit long (but can work). I may even go stiffer springs at the front if I can't find a front sway bar.

The roll is controlled by stiffer springs and a VPM 3-link rear sway bar so it does look close on video but doesn't touch. Travel is hard to measure (I'd have to remove the springs) but it's still stock in that I haven't limited it physically in any way. I'm running 355/35r19's too, so it's quite a tall tire.

Hi Jim, I think Dan Ruth used to sell a front sway bar for the Gen 1 33's. I could be wrong.

[RoadRacer]

Hi Jim, I think Dan Ruth used to sell a front sway bar for the Gen 1 33's. I could be wrong.

Yeah you're right. I keep hoping to come up with a nicer looking setup.. I think at this point I'm going to have to buy a jegs kit and assemble my own.

[RoadRacer]

A spectator was taking some video of the last autocross and shared these slo-mo’s of my car.


https://youtu.be/_bi__TAwWiA

I can only post one per post :(

[RoadRacer]

https://youtu.be/z85MwAmwJaU

[RoadRacer]

https://youtu.be/B4Scb_IFgEM

[RoadRacer]

The final result that he used the footage for:


https://youtu.be/kAyuppLq6Po

[J R Jones]

James, You run with a tough crowd.
jim

[RoadRacer]

Here's today's best run..


https://youtu.be/cUx6VTHRWmc

[FF33rod]

Love the sound of that engine. Would love to try autocross this summer, how difficult is it to understand/follow the course? From the videos it doesn't look that easy actually...

Steve

[jayguy]

Steve,
Look for the local club/organization that does these things, they'll have more information for you. I used to do it with a group of Boeing employees in Seattle and Everett. They usually have the course laid out on a board or something to give you a general idea, and before each session you can walk the course to get a better idea. Plus, turns aren't that hard, and if you notice there are cones on their sides, those point the way for you to go, either around a cone in a slalom, or for larger turns like one point in the above video where there are 4 cones all pointing to the right for a larger turn.

The club will be more than happy to help you out, and generally you will be assigned a group to run in, and when its not your turn you are asked to go out on the course and work the corners, replacing knocked over cones after each run (if there are any).

It is a lot of fun, and you get to meet some great people while you are out there.

Good Luck, and post your videos once you've gone and done it. :)

Jay

[RoadRacer]

Love the sound of that engine. Would love to try autocross this summer, how difficult is it to understand/follow the course? From the videos it doesn't look that easy actually...

Steve

It's THE hardest part to learn, for many people. I've raced before so understood "lines" although that does change a little on autocross vs circuit. But the hardest thing is that you get 5 runs on a brand new track every month! We walk the course - I did it 3 times on Sunday - and worked out the fastest route, but getting that burned into your head is hard. Apparently novices get better at it with practice, but this was my fifth event so I still struggle. It's so easy to get lost amongst a sea of cones. Sounds dumb, but when the red mist descends you just..lose it!

By the 3rd run you are going pretty quick.. then sometimes I push too much on the 4th run. And the 5th run is the fastest :D

[FF33rod]

"sea of cones" - yup, that's what it looks like, doesn't sound dumb at all. That would be my biggest fear, not even being able to tell what the course is. Maybe having a navigator like a rally would work! ;)

Steve

[RoadRacer]

"sea of cones" - yup, that's what it looks like, doesn't sound dumb at all. That would be my biggest fear, not even being able to tell what the course is. Maybe having a navigator like a rally would work! ;)

Steve

Yes, here's a trick. Join your group last or close to last.. depending on how many are at an event you might have 20-50 cars ahead of you! Then you have a chance to ride along with an experienced driver. Makes the world of difference. Also, have someone ride along with you! They can point the way. I know it's intimidating but after the first event you'll see that MANY people hit cones or lose their way or spin. At our event we had 40+ novices (their own class) so you won't stand out. I'm still very much a novice.

[RoadRacer]

Some pro photos from this weekend's run

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[RoadRacer]

Yesterday I had the steering apart - again - to replace my test column support. It worked well, but as expected, wasn't strong enough. It eventually started bending.

Here's a new one made from 3/16 plate, and this time bolted through chassis instead of relying on rivets. I'll keep an eye on it obviously but this one is pretty rigid. Driving impressions were amazing - it not only tightens up the steering again but has made it so much lighter (less strain needed to counteract from the slop I guess)

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[RoadRacer]

Today I spent a couple of hours making the rear LCA's and panhard bar level. Here they are back to where they should be - I'd unknowingly messed them up a little when the new (taller) tires came along.

I leveled the LCA's by moving the rear bolt into the top hole and leveled the panhard bar by moving the bolt from the bottom to the top of the slotted hole (on the right).

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I also ordered some 7" 650lbs springs (up from my 9" 550lbs) for the front. 9" was too tight, so I wanted to replace them, and took the opportunity to go stiffer since I'm not likely to add a sway bar to the front any time soon.

[bobl]

What memories! My wife and I met running Spokes events...over 45 years ago. Last one we ran was around 1978. Gives me the bug to give it another try.

[RoadRacer]

What memories! My wife and I met running Spokes events...over 45 years ago. Last one we ran was around 1978. Gives me the bug to give it another try.

Hey Bob! You should come out, they are still a great bunch of people. 12 events this year, and a fun selection of cars. I’m 58 and having my second run of fun myself after doing a lot of motorsports in the 80s and 90s. Having a blast! If you ever fancy visiting Manor let me know!

[peterh226]

If you are working that hard on the steering wheel, you have an issue. You should be able to almost drive with your fingertips. If you are white knuckling it you are not able to feel the car. If you have to hang on to the Wheel, you need a lot better seatbelts. The steering wheel is and should be caressed as you guide you vehicle rapidly along your chosen path!!!

[RoadRacer]

If you are working that hard on the steering wheel, you have an issue. You should be able to almost drive with your fingertips. If you are white knuckling it you are not able to feel the car. If you have to hang on to the Wheel, you need a lot better seatbelts. The steering wheel is and should be caressed as you guide you vehicle rapidly along your chosen path!!!

I’m not working hard at the wheel, I didn’t mean to imply that!

The steering is very light and easy. But the design and layout of that last unsupported shaft (and poorly fitting joint) certainly needs fixing on my car. If yours doesn’t need this fix then of course ignore me ;)

[RoadRacer]

I've seen an FFR 33 before, but never when I had my car.. so today when Steve (sread) came into town for his ASE Master inspection we met and had lunch at Top Notch. These cars couldn't BE any more different! Steve's done a lot of cool stuff, so I took many pics to review later.

Here's a couple though:

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[sread]

Hey James - glad we could finally meet. After 340 miles today, I can safely say that an open top hot rod is not the hot set up for road trips. Got stuck in traffic again(construction) on 71 and was seriously worried my left leg might seize up. Otherwise was pretty uneventful on the trip home and the car performed great other than getting terrible fuel mileage. Will have to work on that. Am definitely going to get the top installed before returning next month for the Roundup. See you then.

[RoadRacer]

Got my new (temp) throttle cable fitted after my old one snapped. Mechanical linkage is in planning!

Also fitted my new 650lb 7” front springs.. and it might sound weird but the car feels better straight away. Not sure how, but seems somehow more stable on the road at both high and low speeds.

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[cob427sc]

Love the old patina look on the car! Gas mileage in my 33 is also a killer with the way prices are going up. I'm running an old Buick nailhead that drinks hi-test like your favorite bar friend slugs down beer. Only gets about 10-12 mpg. In the original car back in 1958 it was advertised has a high mpg car at 8-10 mpg! How things change.

[RoadRacer]

Not much to report, building-wise. But I'm having a blast at autocross this year - 12 events - with spokes.org (http://spokes.org). Super nice bunch of guys and girls. I took an ax class with the club that was pretty amazing and taught me some cool tips to help me transition from circuit to ax.

I've also been flagging at the local track - harrishillroad.com (http://harrishillroad.com) where I earn an hour on the track for every race that I flag at. Two races every two weeks means I've got 7 free hours on a very nice track. I plan to go down there one Wednesday afternoon when noones around and have a blast.

I did fit a brake bias kno (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wil-340-4990)b this morning so I can adjust it easier.

[RoadRacer]

My latest autocross event, Spoke #5 at COTA. Much better balance, very neutral, by setting my rear sway bar to full soft. I've changed my style too, by deliberately starting slowly and building speed on subsequent runs. Makes me less "red-mist" and more calm. And calm makes faster autox runs :D


https://youtu.be/7CPy-igQ9ks

Some pro pics to come soon.

[RoadRacer]

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Which is the best one to submit to POM? I'll get my unpainted old bus in there one day :D

[McGuyver]

I like photo 4 the best!

[JimLev]

Photo 1

[RoadRacer]

I like 1 too..

[RoadRacer]

I had put this off too long, so did some remedial work on the car this weekend. Moved the headlights up from the previous spot to up on the grill shell. I don't know where you're supposed to fit headlights honestly so perhaps my earlier position (on top hole of the big radiator bracket) wasn't the right spot. Regardless, with wider tires, more camber, and less offset, the headlights kept getting hit and moved as I approached full lock.

I had to modify a bunch of stuff and cut holes/rebates/slices out of grill shell and mounting spots to make this work.

This is what I started with:

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By the way, for anyone building now, I recommend you make this cut so you can remove headlights without having to cut the wires each time.

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Here's a comparison of positions:

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A close up of how I had to cut the shell:

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And the finished result. I also had to cut the headlight buckets, because the headlights wouldn't adjust enough to move horizontal, so I widened the slots so I could rotate the headlights in the bucket.

167410167411

[RoadRacer]

Been a while! I got fed up with the harsh rattling from the exhaust tips - the last section coming through the side never did have enough room through the chassis. So today I finally removed the muffler and end pipe, and beat the everloving sh%t out of the end pipe where it goes through the chassis. Bolted it all back up and it doesn't touch or rattle anymore. That's after, what, 18 months? Just never got to the top of my list :D

[33fromSD]

Been a while! I got fed up with the harsh rattling from the exhaust tips - the last section coming through the side never did have enough room through the chassis. So today I finally removed the muffler and end pipe, and beat the everloving sh%t out of the end pipe where it goes through the chassis. Bolted it all back up and it doesn't touch or rattle anymore. That's after, what, 12,000 miles? Just never got to the top of my list :D

Always feels good to beat the everloving sh%t out of something. :o

Jim

[RoadRacer]

Had a great bunch of answers on the autocross tire thread, so decided to look for tires - chose Falken Azenis RT660, 315/30/18 (https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Falken&tireModel=Azenis+RT660&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=13WR8RT660&tab=Sizes) on 18x12 front and back.

Was just window shopping but came across suitable wheels at tirerack on closeout so bought FOUR wheels for $500 (https://www.tirerack.com/wheels/WheelCloseUpServlet?target=runWheelSearch&wheelMake=FLOW+ONE+Race+Spec&wheelModel=F2&wheelFinish=Gloss+Black+Painted&autoMake=Porsche&autoModel=911+Turbo+Coupe+5-Lug&autoYear=2013&autoModClar=Standard+Brakes). That's kinda nuts. I'll get the tires later..

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[FF33rod]

315s on the front! That's gonna be fun to look at. Will be like a bulldozer coming down the street at ya.... :)

[RoadRacer]

Well, 50/50 weight distribution, and the vette guys go 'square' so it'll be good for racing at least.

[RoadRacer]

The new "race" wheels showed up - looking good! Still can't believe they were $127 each (67% off).

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Also got a front sway bar from VPM (they had a shorter one that's not on their website). So I can experiment with where/how to fit that at the weekend. I think there's room, but need to disconnect shocks etc to go through full range of motion and steering, with both sets of wheels!

170103

[RoadRacer]

I received the VPM narrower sway bar (unlisted on their website) as it will fit on the 33 - with some fabrication of course. Need to mount it somewhere and attach it to something ;)

Here's a couple of pictures.

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and a short video I made to explain my ideas to an engineer friend.. the audio disappears at some point - no idea why - but you'll get the idea. I'm pretty happy with the plan, but don't hesitate to make suggestions!


https://youtu.be/zLvVZxLrw4Y

[dstelter]

Looks good James.

Let me know if you need some help.

170233

Doug

[RoadRacer]

It's been a fun day - but I got the front sway bar fitted and working. It's not perfect and will need some tweaking and improving.. but I have one!

I've been pondering all week how to best fit this - the chassis is very narrow at the front and that means that I cannot (easily) support the sway bar like it should be. This was the best fitment location though, with a 1" spacer.

170311

Here's how I did it:

170313 170314 170315 170316

This location means that the sway bar stays out of the way of the a-arms and steering throughout all motion. I tested it with springs detached and car in the air so I could test full lock throughout full range of motion.

Now comes the controversial part (!) - the shape of the arm put it in a place that wasn't great for attaching to any a-arm. The linkage supplied by VPM was very short, but I was willing to buy longer if it would help, but in the end I decided to to drill a single 3/8 hole through the arm directly. Obviously this isn't perfect and loses significant strength from the tubing, but I'm going to experiment with it. I grew up too close to Colin Chapman to worry about a few holes in structural parts. ;)

After some testing to prove this geometry works, I expect I'll weld in a sleeve inside this a-arm or otherwise strengthen it.

Anyway, on to the pics

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I measured where each of the 4 positions would line up, then drilled one hole in the middle. All four adjustments will reach this hole.

By the way, I tested this with both 19" road wheel and the new 18x12 race wheels - all have adequate clearance.

I went for a quick drive to test it - first around the neighborhood very gingerly, then a full check up. After that I went to some out of the way roundabouts and will continue to test it out. So far so good!

[Mastertech5]

Nice job! Yes you need to weld tubes through the tubes so it won't crush when tightening the bolt. Maybe weld a tab onto the arm to bolt the link to instead.
Bruce

[RoadRacer]

Yeah it ain’t going to crush.. but yes I’ll get this done.

[RoadRacer]

Ordered some 0.5" OD x 0.065" Wall x 0.37" ID Alloy Steel Round Tube 4130 to sleeve the hole - will have it 1/4" proud and then weld will add some strength too. Some good discussion on the Welding forum (https://weldtalk.hobartwelders.com/forum/equipment-talk/general-welding-questions/33094-best-way-to-weld-a-sleeve-in-tubing)

[RoadRacer]

A silly thing, but I'm so happy right now :D

Customer James Shaw’s ’33 Hot Rod (https://www.factoryfive.com/whats-new/james-shaws-33-hot-rod/)

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[racingandfishing]

Congratulations and not silly at all!!!

[Mastertech5]

Congratulations. You should be proud and happy. Determination and Will will carry you through to your goals.

[RoadRacer]

Some of you have seen this on FB, but I had an interesting experience at the weekend while driving to autox. I only made it half way and smelled brakes, pulled over and my rear p/s brake was so hot the rubber was on fire. I had to use my extinguisher to put out some little flames!

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I took it all apart when I got home, but all clips were perfectly attached and lubed, I had just a few days ago pulled the pins, cleaned and lubed. New pads. Wound in the piston and there was still some wiggle even with new pads. Nothing was noticeably wrong, but I must have disturbed something to make the piston hang up. The ebrake looked normal too, not hung up.

171175171176171177

Its a mystery, but I put on a new caliper, did it all over and it's working now. Hard to say what damage has occurred with all the heat - the rotor looks ok, not warped or discolored, so we'll see. I'm keeping an eye on all four corners and reading rotor temps after wcah drive for a while.

[Mastertech5]

I was a Tech for 35 years and when you crank the piston back in and put everything back together you should apply the brake pedal before stepping on the park brake to get the mechanism away from being bottomed out. If you apply the park brake first and then the brake pedal it might let the ratchet in the piston click to the next detent keeping drag on the brakes. Probably just a bad called though as you discovered. I've had that happen with new rebuilt calipers out of the box.

[RoadRacer]

I was a Tech for 35 years and when you crank the piston back in and put everything back together you should apply the brake pedal before stepping on the park brake to get the mechanism away from being bottomed out. If you apply the park brake first and then the brake pedal it might let the ratchet in the piston click to the next detent keeping drag on the brakes. Probably just a bad called though as you discovered. I've had that happen with new rebuilt calipers out of the box.

Thanks, that may have happened, I certainly did try the parking brake first by reaching in. Good tip!

[33fromSD]

Some of you have seen this on FB, but I had an interesting experience at the weekend while driving to autox. I only made it half way and smelled brakes, pulled over and my rear p/s brake was so hot the rubber was on fire. I had to use my extinguisher to put out some little flames!

171171171172171173171174

I took it all apart when I got home, but all clips were perfectly attached and lubed, I had just a few days ago pulled the pins, cleaned and lubed. New pads. Wound in the piston and there was still some wiggle even with new pads. Nothing was noticeably wrong, but I must have disturbed something to make the piston hang up. The ebrake looked normal too, not hung up.

171175171176171177

Its a mystery, but I put on a new caliper, did it all over and it's working now. Hard to say what damage has occurred with all the heat - the rotor looks ok, not warped or discolored, so we'll see. I'm keeping an eye on all four corners and reading rotor temps after wcah drive for a while.

I'm sure that kicked in the adrenaline when you saw that? Sorry you experienced that, but Thank goodness it wasn't more serious. Fiberglass cars tend to ignite pretty quickly. I had a buddy with a 67 vette who had an engine fire and the whole car was engulfed in seconds, pretty much just a frame when the fire trucks arrived 10 minutes later, never saw anything like it.

Glad your safe.

Jim

[RoadRacer]

Ha, thanks Jim! Yes, never actually deployed a fire extinguisher before. You know that "quick release" didn't feel quick! Need to practice that :D

Of course it wasn't much of a fire.. just a flame from the rubber boots, and nothing to catch fire inside my wheel, but yes, it "woke me up" LOL

[Mastertech5]

FYI Bondo dust is also flammable.
That could have turned into a disaster. Glad everything ended up ok. It's only money. At least you're still here to spend it.

[Mastertech5]

FYI Bondo dust is also flammable.
That could have turned into a disaster. Glad everything ended up ok. It's only money. At least you're still here to spend it.

Still waiting on FFR to call.

[RoadRacer]

Got a response from Hawk - I sent them to this thread and pics and asked them what they thought. Interestingly, they thought the pads may be fine..

"Sounds like a wild time! The pads are likely fine.

The melty bits on the pad is just the powder coating.

This is just to protect the pad from corrosion over a period of time way longer than the pads are going to last you if it isn’t just sitting around being a garage queen."

[RoadRacer]

I always wanted to see where the corner weights were, so today I visited a friend who had some scales and measured them and tweaked them a little. I thought a few of you might be interested.

The car weighed in at 2331 with a race-ready 1/4 tank. That's up 51lbs from the original grain-store weigh I did for registration of 2280. But that makes sense because I've probably added 50lbs of mods since then - two solid sway bars and misc things like fire extinguisher, steering support, etc.

I didn't keep records of it all - my friend was running the numbers on his app - but here's where we ended up after some adjustmenta. This is with me in the car (I'm 255 so I make a difference!)

49.2% front.
50.8% rear.

52.3% d/s
47.7% p/s

50.7% fl-rr diagonal
50.9% fr-rl diagonal

So overall, not bad. I confirmed the car is ~50/50 front to rear, and got the diagonals matching by cranking both fr and rl spring collars up a couple of turns.

Now I have a good starting point. The front/rear percentages will improve some more when I use the race-only square 315's since right now I have big-little tires.

But I'll also take a look at what weight I can move to the p/s.. the battery is already over there, but I could move alternator and fire extinguisher to that side also. But I likely won't bother. :)

[RoadRacer]

Had some fun time in the garage recently, all focused on front-end geometry.

Last weekend I added more caster and camber. More caster because the car is so twitchy on some roads around here - always has been. Follows every line.. and with this new strategy of adding more lanes by narrowing the existing ones, there are a lot of old lines/joints that my car loves to follow.

174860

So, increased from 4deg to 8deg caster again.

Also added more camber, from -0.8 to -2, roughly. Sure looks like a lot more! This was basically an experiment to see how it affects cornering and tire wear, and with the switch to hoosier A7's at the next event I'm told they like more camber. -0.8 wasn't enough looking at photos.. still looked to go positive in hard corners.

Left toe at about 1/8" toe-in. But it is funny how much you need to adjust it after adjusting camber/caster.. toe was around 1.5" ;)

I find that after all these alignments they are pretty easy now. Lengthening the rear LCA adds camber and caster, while lengthening the front LCA adds camber and reduces caster. So this time I only touched the rear LCA.

This weekend I wanted to finally put in the new steering rack (I got a free one when a bushing fell out one side) and add the bump steer kit from Tim Whittaker at Kootenai Valley Customs. It's well worth it - ~$250 but makes the toe adjustment way easier and changes the stock stiff old balljoint to a smooth-as-silk Heim joint.

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You have to cut 1-1.5" off each side of the steering rack (I cut 1.5") due to the length of the new ends. I measured the thread lengths and made a note of it - otherwise how will you know later?! I'm always paranoid that I'm getting too close to end of the thread. Anyway, I have 43mm of thread on the heim joint, and (now) 74mm on the steering rack.

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The other thing I always wanted to do, but never could with the rack on the car, was drill a proper seat for the grub screw. I always regretted not doing this during initial assembly, so I fixed it. So much easier on my drill press. I think the correct dad phrase for this is "that ain't going nowhere"

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All together again, and did some good miles on it yesterday and everything feels much tighter. Partly the new rack, partly the new spline and grub screw, and the heim joint too.

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OH, I never told you about the bump steer!

TLDR; there was none detectable, so I didn't use any spacers. Which is why you see them all stacked up on top for later use.

I don't have a proper bump steer gauge, so I made two of my own. First, I clamped some aluminum stock to the rotor and setup a board in front of the car, and disconnected the springs. As I jacked up the car I plotted points on the paper.

Secondly, I used a laser level balanced on a trash can next to the car, clamped a mirror on the rotor, and setup another board to plot the laser reflection.

In both cases (these were of course very approximate measurements) I couldn't see any tell-tale arc in the toe, so I just left as-is for now - basically with the same geometry as the stock setup. If I ever get access to some fancier equipment at least now I could adjust it.

[Just 1 More]

If and when I get mine and get it on the road, I'll have to make a trip down your way and let you teach me, show me.

[RoadRacer]

If and when I get mine and get it on the road, I'll have to make a trip down your way and let you teach me, show me.

Sounds like you're like me - any excuse for a road trip! Any car-crazy folks always welcome!

[Mastertech5]

Like they say. They never are really done. There's always something to add on or change to make it better! Enjoy the ride.

[RoadRacer]

Last autox of the year - this was the only run recorded (my slowest) but I improved 3.5s after this.

I always take it slow on my first run so I can feel the course, and this was my first time running Hoosier A7's so I expected the car to act differently - it did! My car was instantly pushing (you can see I barely get around some of these corners) rather than being loose. It was also cold (50deg) with very light rain before the run, so hardly ideal for slicks!

But it was a fun fast course, I had a blast on my later runs!


https://youtu.be/1sD9tNmGBWw

[Mastertech5]

That's what it's all about, FUN! ENJOY!

[RoadRacer]

Look what I noticed earlier today - something to investigate this weekend. Weird.

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[33fromSD]

James, I assuming you're talking the area I circled in red right? If yes, it almost looks like a chunk of the caliper broke off. If not then I'm not sure what I'm looking for.

Jim

178338

[RoadRacer]

I haven’t looked since but I just noticed that only half the rotor is getting touched by the pad..

[33fromSD]

I haven’t looked since but I just noticed that only half the rotor is getting touched by the pad..

Gotcha. For some reason that piece looked broken but I guess looking at an old photo I dug up of mine it looks the same. Not sure on the pad pattern on the rotor, it will be interesting to see what you find.

Jim

[RoadRacer]

Well.. there’s nothing broken and no problem really. The pad is a little chamfered on that edge which is why it’s not touching. But I’ve been out and tested my brakes throughly and rebalanced and they work far better than my 300tw tires ;)

[DanQ]

I am right now preparing my 8.8 axle, as my 33 HR should arrive in May/June. I noticed in your photos that you kept the upper anti-hop shock bracket attached to the top of the axle tube. I don't think these were used, so can I cut them off to clean things up a bit? Also, I am running the same rear disc brakes (stock) as your shows. Can the calipers be kept on the back side of the axle, or do they need to be flipped so they are on the front side. Every photo I see shows the calipers on the front side of the rear axle. It would not be a big deal to flip them, but then it seems the parking brake cables would be pointing to the rear, requiring the cables to bend a 180, which would make them not operate or release smoothly, and it would look odd. Your thoughts?

[RoadRacer]

I am right now preparing my 8.8 axle, as my 33 HR should arrive in May/June. I noticed in your photos that you kept the upper anti-hop shock bracket attached to the top of the axle tube. I don't think these were used, so can I cut them off to clean things up a bit? Also, I am running the same rear disc brakes (stock) as your shows. Can the calipers be kept on the back side of the axle, or do they need to be flipped so they are on the front side. Every photo I see shows the calipers on the front side of the rear axle. It would not be a big deal to flip them, but then it seems the parking brake cables would be pointing to the rear, requiring the cables to bend a 180, which would make them not operate or release smoothly, and it would look odd. Your thoughts?

I think it depends on which pic you're looking at - I don't have any superfluous brackets on my axle now (but did when initially fitting).. did you see post #93 (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?24163-Roadracer-s-997-build&p=308141&viewfull=1#post308141)? And more on the subject at #99..

as for the calipers, yes they can be either side. I found the ebrake cable routes much better this way around.. much bigger arc and smoother. But if there are any photos you need that aren't clear, let me know

[Mastertech5]

Well.. there’s nothing broken and no problem really. The pad is a little chamfered on that edge which is why it’s not touching. But I’ve been out and tested my brakes throughly and rebalanced and they work far better than my 300tw tires ;)
The usual cause for that is the pads binding in the brackets and not applying evenly. They should slide easily by hand on the stainless clips. Sometimes rust builds up under them causing bind. You can put a dab of high temp brake grease on the slides.

[RoadRacer]

The usual cause for that is the pads binding in the brackets and not applying evenly. They should slide easily by hand on the stainless clips. Sometimes rust builds up under them causing bind. You can put a dab of high temp brake grease on the slides.

Yeah, thanks; they seem lubed appropriately, move smoothly, and are almost brand new. Moving on!..

[RoadRacer]

I decided to move into the XB (was XSB) class this year for autox, so I needed to fix a few things just to "kinda" dots the i's. XB needs a "finished interior" and not just bare metal, so I masked up the floor and walls and rolled on a couple coats of truck bedliner. Should be durable enough for me.

179259

Forgive the wet marks on the seats - that's not paint but we had a lot of rain recently and it tends to get in without windows ;)

Then I needed some door panels - I'd never fitted the vinyl-over-aluminum ones. Seemed unnecessary weight. But I stripped off the vinyl and rubber-coated them too. But when I went to fit them (I hadn't test fitted, duh) they weren't going to fit well, needed bending.. and anyway still too heavy. So I found that roll of vinyl that came for the waterfall and cut out some pieces and riveted them on.. no backing, just flapping, but they'll do!

179260

Finally, got my daughters cricut out again (I've made so many door numbers by now!) and made up a big XB to replace the NEM/EM/REM that I've had in the past.

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All set! Went to our clubs annual tech inspection and got my tech sticker for the year (no need to tech at each event) so ready and raring to go!

[RoadRacer]

Loving the XB class so far - I got second in class at the first event, and the top 4 were covered by less than a second. Fun!!

Here's my fourth run - second fastest - my next run beat this by 0.5s but no video.


https://youtu.be/zTimOlha1UM

The brakes were amazing, having found a bad MC the night before the race and swapped it out (luckily I had a spare!)

[Just 1 More]

Loving the XB class so far - I got second in class at the first event, and the top 4 were covered by less than a second. Fun!!

Here's my fourth run - second fastest - my next run beat this by 0.5s but no video.


https://youtu.be/zTimOlha1UM

The brakes were amazing, having found a bad MC the night before the race and swapped it out (luckily I had a spare!)

Still running the Michelins? I thought you were changing to something else?

[RoadRacer]

Yes when money allows ;) I have slicks but can’t run them in XB so I’ll try to use them up at track night. Falken RT660 will be coming as soon as I can afford it - just for track use though. The Michelins seem like they’ll last forever at this point!

[RoadRacer]

On my never-ending journey to make this car faster around corners - and comfort-be-damned - I splurged a few hundred on an experiment to see how stiffer springs work. Went up from 650/350 to 800/450, both 7".

The front are always easy to swap, just jack up and let the wheels extend the shocks, but I found that I could swap the rears much faster than before by just removing the lower bolt, and the hidden 'c-clip' on the shock shaft, then springs just falls out below - didn't even need to remove wheels.

I also lowered the car 1/4" all around while I was there - every little counts, right?

183763

[RoadRacer]

My cars been on the road since feb 21, when it was running some really old gt500 wheels and tires.. then I got my PS4s tires for road driving but they sucked for autox.. but now after nearly two years of autox I finally can afford a race-only set of Falken Azenis RT660. Running 315/30/18 square (from and rear) on a spare set of 18x12.

The beauty of these vs slicks - I can change at home and drive to the track, making race days much easier. I’ll still use the PS4s on rainy days.

I’m getting them mounted at the weekend and first race is on 21st.

They should make a big difference with so much more grip. I’m told they act like 100tw but are still legally 200 for running in XB. Plus I’m stickering up my car for some extra speed :)

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Did this from phone so will have to fix upside down photo later!

[RoadRacer]

Here they are mounted finally.. next weekend is the autocross, so let's hope it doesn't rain!

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[Mastertech5]

Good luck next weekend! Have fun.

[RoadRacer]

The car was amazing this weekend. I'm convinced the stiffer springs helped me go faster, but the new Falken RT660 tires were SO much better. I started at 23psi, and the wear pattern after 4 runs showed it was pretty perfect.

These two changes made a lot more grip, giving me the confidence to go faster, and the results backed that up. I not only won my class (XB), but also faster than half the XA class (where some very fast cars live, like 3s faster!).. so even though the course changes every event, I think that's proof of improvement.

I have a long way to go, but I now have to catch up with the car again. I can go faster and be more consistently on the power now - even in this fastest run below, I was hesitant at times.


https://youtu.be/OPhQGmnIoIE

P.S. It drizzled all day, so this was on a damp track!

[Just 1 More]

That's so awesome.. i'm living vicariously through you
I wish I were closer, i'd bring the Camaro out and run with you.. I have to run in CAM-T of course

[RoadRacer]

That's so awesome.. i'm living vicariously through you
I wish I were closer, i'd bring the Camaro out and run with you.. I have to run in CAM-T of course

Yes! We have 200 cars at each event, but they put a bunch of small(er) classes together in this "Ultra" class, hence the U prefix before my "real" XB class. So I actually compete against XA, XB, and all the CAM classes! There are some fun cars in CAMT

[RoadRacer]

Just ordered a set of these to get more lateral support and headrests.. and maybe lose some weight? I'd guess this would save 20-30lbs off weight of car, but I'll check that later.

Jegs Aluminum Racing Seat, Black [17 in. Hip Width] (https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/702265/10002/-1)

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[JimLev]

IIRC the FFR low back seats only weighed 10 LBS each.

[RoadRacer]

IIRC the FFR low back seats only weighed 10 LBS each.

Yeah I thought they’d be heavier. I just took out my passenger seat and it weighed 15-16lbs.. about the same as the jegs new ones!

[RoadRacer]

I haven't been keeping up here! I got the seats - remember the 17" ones, with Jegs showing the maximum width dimension as 17" on their diagram. Well, they were wrong. At the narrowest point of the base they measured 17.5", and at the widest part of the base they measured 18.25" Beware!!

The problem is, 17" was the maximum width that I had, between the aluminum transmission tunnel and the sill chassis. Jegs were no help and said that these measurements were "within tolerance" (1.25" error over 17"??) so they wouldn't replace them, or pay for shipping the return. It's not just the fact that there is limited width - these seats are so tall you literally can't get them in the door with the roof on (mine isn't removable). I have to cut the transmission JUST to get the seat inside the car.

So if you're considering these seats (which are nice seats, no complaints about them), buy the 16" :)

It took a full weekend, over 10hours, to fit the drivers seat. I had to cut up the transmission tunnel, and fabricate a way to fit them without having any room or access to the nuts&bolts. It was painful.

But here it is, and I love it now that it is in. I can literally corner faster now - I've tested it on my favorite long sweeper - not because the car is faster, but I feel more secure and trust the car more.

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[RoadRacer]

Here's the notched panel I had to make up to fill the gap I had to cut out.

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[RoadRacer]

Next, was me nearly putting the car into the wall on a 70mph corner on a freeway. The steering seemed to "slip" at the time, and I caught it and got it home, but it was a very unnerving thing to happen. The steering worked, but under any pressure it seemed to slip sideways.

I took it all apart, and all grub screws were still tight (I use red loctite), but the splines in the very last joint had almost completely worn off.

Take a look at this. It's really hard to photograph.

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[RoadRacer]

The real problem with the stock part (stock for my 2017 gen1 at least) is that it is a blind spline, if that's the right word. The spline on the steering rack is longer than the spline in the joint, you can't push it all the way on. You're wasting some spline.

I've never been happy with this joint, and tightening grub screws or drilling deeper holes never stops it being wobbly. The grub screws stop it coming apart, but never make it a tight fit.

I replaced it with a unisteer 8050230 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003ENJ8IU) - you can see it's shorter, but fatter than the original. It also has a different style of connection that we will see if it's better over time.

186001

Because it was shorter, I bought some DD shaft and made up a new lower shaft, and drilled for all the grub screws. Here it is fitted:

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NOTE - this joint is a much better design and can be fitted all the way up the rack spline.

[RoadRacer]

ok, so one thing that I didn't say during the seat fitment was that I had to measure where the seat should go. I read about the recommendations and ergonomic placement of race car seats and steering wheel, and that;s when I realized that my steering wheel was not ideally placed. This is largely my fault by using a quick change and my own wheel which I believe ended up placing my wheel further away from the driver.

Now it was time to fix it!! I knew that my arms were pretty straight at "10 and 2", where they should be almost 90º, and my hand was touching the top of wheel at the base of my fingers instead of my wrist. It was a good 4.5" too far away.

Today I fixed that, I had planned it out and only took 4 hours to fabricate, fix, and test.

In short, I bolted up some angle iron to the original chassis holes and drilled new holes 4.5" closer for the steering column to bolt to. Then cut a new DD shaft that was 4.5" longer.

This also had the added benefit that I could move the steering wheel sideways, so it was central in my new seat.

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I'll tidy it up and make an aluminum panel to cover the visible part. But it makes a big difference in driving - it's now central, and the perfect height and distance. The angle iron is super stiff so just as strong as before.

[Just 1 More]

ok, so one thing that I didn't say during the seat fitment was that I had to measure where the seat should go. I read about the recommendations and ergonomic placement of race car seats and steering wheel, and that;s when I realized that my steering wheel was not ideally placed. This is largely my fault by using a quick change and my own wheel which I believe ended up placing my wheel further away from the driver.

Now it was time to fix it!! I knew that my arms were pretty straight at "10 and 2", where they should be almost 90º, and my hand was touching the top of wheel at the base of my fingers instead of my wrist. It was a good 4.5" too far away.

Today I fixed that, I had planned it out and only took 4 hours to fabricate, fix, and test.

In short, I bolted up some angle iron to the original chassis holes and drilled new holes 4.5" closer for the steering column to bolt to. Then cut a new DD shaft that was 4.5" longer.

This also had the added benefit that I could move the steering wheel sideways, so it was central in my new seat.

186004 186005

I'll tidy it up and make an aluminum panel to cover the visible part. But it makes a big difference in driving - it's now central, and the perfect height and distance. The angle iron is super stiff so just as strong as before.

You do know that they make NHRA certified double locking seat tracks... That's what I used on mine just for that reason... So that I can shorten up when I want to Auto-X and stretch out when I want to cruise.

[RoadRacer]

You do know that they make NHRA certified double-locking seat tracks... That's what I used on mine just for that reason... So that I can shorten up when I want to Auto-X and stretch out when I want to cruise.

yes, for sure. I don't think of it that way though - I wanted the 'correct' positioning all the time, so I can always be practicing and gaining muscle memory. Anyway, it's MORE comfortable with the new seat and wheel position, not less so.

plus of course, moving the seat shortens the space for your legs :)

[RoadRacer]

Loving the new steering wheel position.

Back to the other end of the steering though - the new spline joint is "ok" but - again - can't be tightened enough to be snug on the splines. I have another style that IS snugger, but now I have the problem that I can't get the new one off because tightening the cap head screw to 45lbs (as they specified) rounded out the cap head. My cap head tools for removing rounded-off ones don't have a 7mm option, and it's too rounded to use the 6mm. Cool, so I'll have to drill it out a little then use the 8mm. There's always something!

However.. without power steering this last DD shaft is too long to be unsupported IMO - it exaggerates any play already present. So I put the support back on, in a way that will allow me to adjust it infinitely. I cut a slot in the bracket because this support has to be in EXACTLY the correct position in 3D to work.

The steering has nowhere to move now, so it'll be good enough to race this weekend.. then I'll consider swapping out that spline joint.

186360

[J R Jones]

James, You could weld one half of your ring clamp to the universal. Weld split ring clamps to both ends of the universal.
Actually that universal joint looks small to me.
jim

[RoadRacer]

James, You could weld one half of your ring clamp to the universal. Weld split ring clamps to both ends of the universal.
Actually that universal joint looks small to me.
jim

Yeah, it's hard to explain, but the UJ isn't loose in a far/aft direction. I did put the clamp on to assist admittedly. But the real issue is side-side, like if you grab the center of the UJ you can move it side to side because the spline is not a tight fit (the DD is tight).

My approach here is to hold the shaft tight in space so that it completely nullifies any side-side movement. That will stop wear on the spline too. My previous spline was not supported for 2 years, so by the time I did this, it was too late (plus the old stock design had limited spline engagement).

So, yes, we're still on this journey! Ultimately the only real solution is a new design with the "normal" 1 or 2 UJ's, but good luck with that! I've stared at this for hours and even with my penchant for experimentation, it wouldn't be easy.

[peterh226]

I'm fighting the joint at the rack connection as well. Seems like everything is too rigid. I am wondering if a vibration damper ujoint will absorb just enough to keep this from happening. Anyone tried this? A lot of systems don't want to be completely rigid.

[RoadRacer]

I'm fighting the joint at the rack connection as well. Seems like everything is too rigid. I am wondering if a vibration damper ujoint will absorb just enough to keep this from happening. Anyone tried this? A lot of systems don't want to be completely rigid.

No I’ve never thought of that. I’m not sure what vibration you need to dampen though. Everything in the system is loose in the dirextions it needs to move in.. rotation! But is held in place VERY firmly everywhere else (at top) so all I’m doing is the same at the spline joint. It works so much better when it can’t move (the wrong way)

[RoadRacer]

My mufflers have been getting worse for some time, but at this weekends racing I had enough. Medium to high revs now sounds like a can full of bolts. Rattling, screeching, whining, all sorts of noises nowadays. So today I ordered some Borla 40357 and I’m just going to clamp in place of the stock ones using some butt joint band clamps for now. Or maybe I’ll take my mufflers to a local shop and have them put the same stock swage on.

[Ltfracing]

Your car is awesome sir

[RoadRacer]

Your car is awesome sir

Haha thanks! Looking forward to your build.

[JimLev]

My mufflers have been getting worse for some time, but at this weekends racing I had enough. Medium to high revs now sounds like a can full of bolts. Rattling, screeching, whining, all sorts of noises nowadays. So today I ordered some Borla 40357 and I’m just going to clamp in place of the stock ones using some butt joint band clamps for now. Or maybe I’ll take my mufflers to a local shop and have them put the same stock swage on.

A while ago I bought Borla 40351, that have the same dimensions as your 40357. Wonder what the difference is.
I haven’t installed them yet.

[RoadRacer]

A while ago I bought Borla 40351, that have the same dimensions as your 40357. Wonder what the difference is.
I haven’t installed them yet.

The 40351 you have has offset both ends. Mine is center one end, offset the other. I just tried to match the stock one as much as possible.

[JimLev]

So they should both sound about the same, hopefully a lot quieter than the FFR mufflers.
If you get yours installed before me post what your thoughts on them are.
I remember why I bought the 40351, the inlet to outlet center to center spacing was closer to the FFR mufflers according to the Borla rep I spoke to.

[RoadRacer]

Here's my fastest time at this last weekend's event at RCCC. started with a 45.5s, and ended with this run with a 43.7


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxLj9c-ghtA

[peterh226]

No I’ve never thought of that. I’m not sure what vibration you need to dampen though. Everything in the system is loose in the dirextions it needs to move in.. rotation! But is held in place VERY firmly everywhere else (at top) so all I’m doing is the same at the spline joint. It works so much better when it can’t move (the wrong way)

See my post over in suspensions, but I put a washer under the lower bolt to rotate rack just a few degrees and this was enough to free up the motion of the joints so they dont try to undo themselves from the splines.

[RoadRacer]

As I said before, my mufflers have intermittently sounded bad for a few months. Some days there is no strange noise, idles and sounds wonderful. Other days, usually after some sustained high revs (cough cough), it sounds terrible, like there are no insides in the mufflers.

Today was the day I took it all apart to inspect and install the new Borla XS 40357.

You can see earlier in the build that I'd wrapped the mufflers - twice - in insulation and also wrapped the exhaust pipes under the car. Now, I don't know if that caused the problem you're about to see but take a look at the blueing of the muffler, and the discoloration of the stainless pipe. Things were HOT under this insulation. [and the floor was still 130º IIRC]

186987

I'm going to run without insulation this time.

When I picked up the muffler and shook it.. well, you'd laugh at the noise. It's hard to tell this when installed in the car - you can't shake an installed muffler. So I cut it open for you all to see what (at least a Gen1) muffler looks like:

186988

I'm not kidding, nothing was attached inside the mufflers. It was an empty box with 4 pieces of metal in it, rattling around. So at some point I'd bounced/revved all the welds enough to break.

Weirdly, look closer at the steel pieces. They are bent and fractured.

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I have no explanation. Anyway, here is a new Borla that is going on tomorrow, compared with what I took off. Very similar shape and size. But the Borla design has a very different design- straight through but surrounded by what looks like a bee hive inside.

187000

More tomorrow when the new clamps show up - I'm just going to use some lap joint band clamps (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BC3PMTVH/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) to get me back on the road. I had the butt joint versions of these because the muffler is supposed to be 2.25".. but it isn't. It measures 2.4" which is outside tolerance for the clamps I have. The lap joint clamps are designed to match the OD of one to the ID of the other (which is what Borla didn't make clear - their measurements are ID).

[Just 1 More]

I have no doubt that FFR sourced the cheapest POS mufflers they could get away with

[JimLev]

The blueing of the stainless is common when it gets really hot. Without the insulation on it the floor is going to get much hotter.
I’ve got the band clamps for mine, just need to get some free time.
I’ll be interested in the level of sound from the Borla’s.
I was thinking about cutting mine open to see what’s inside, you saved me the trouble.

[RoadRacer]

The blueing of the stainless is common when it gets really hot. Without the insulation on it the floor is going to get much hotter.
I’ve got the band clamps for mine, just need to get some free time.
I’ll be interested in the level of sound from the Borla’s.
I was thinking about cutting mine open to see what’s inside, you saved me the trouble.

I’m sure you’re right about the heat.. but I’ll fix it a different way this time. Probably a layer of something on the floor but I’ll research it this time around

[Just 1 More]

I’m sure you’re right about the heat.. but I’ll fix it a different way this time. Probably a layer of something on the floor but I’ll research it this time around

Looking forward to what you come up with. I have looked at a bunch of DEI products https://www.designengineering.com/heat-control/reflective-heat-barriers-shields/

[RoadRacer]

The Borla went on really easily. Cut off the ball ends from exhaust, used some lap joint clamps, they were on in under an hour. Sounds MUCH quieter than what I had (even when they sounded good) but still sound good. I took for a drive and I swear the car felt more powerful but I’m probably kidding myself. It sure sounds smoother.

[RoadRacer]

I posted 4 video “shorts” of the before during and after sounds although it’s hard to capture audio accurately with a phone.. https://youtube.com/@JamesShaw1

[JimLev]

Thank you James. I’ll have to find time to install mine.

[Just 1 More]

The Borla went on really easily. Cut off the ball ends from exhaust, used some lap joint clamps, they were on in under an hour. Sounds MUCH quieter than what I had (even when they sounded good) but still sound good. I took for a drive and I swear the car felt more powerful but I’m probably kidding myself. It sure sounds smoother.

So everything lined up good? That 40357 is the one to use?

[JimLev]

James is using a side exhaust outlet in front of the rear wheels. I don’t know if that would/wouldn’t make any difference if you were to install the rear exhaust.

[RoadRacer]

James is using a side exhaust outlet in front of the rear wheels. I don’t know if that would/wouldn’t make any difference if you were to install the rear exhaust.

Yeah, I matched my muffler shape on the one I got for the standard side exhaust. One center tube, one offset tube. I have no idea what the rear exhaust mufflers look like.

[J R Jones]

James, quite an impressive demonstration. I agree the Borlas are an improvement. They will reduce sound/vibration fatigue.
It is likely that your engine benefits from a bit of back pressure, it was engineered originally that way.

[RoadRacer]

So everything lined up good? That 40357 is the one to use?

To answer you more specifically, yes, it fit perfectly. It was a simple bolt-in replacement. I just cut off the cupped ends from the pipes, and then clamped these on. (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BC3PMTVH?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details)

[Just 1 More]

To answer you more specifically, yes, it fit perfectly. It was a simple bolt-in replacement. I just cut off the cupped ends from the pipes, and then clamped these on. (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BC3PMTVH?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details)

Thanks James, I guess i'm going to go ahead and order the Borlas

[FF33rod]

Yeah, I matched my muffler shape on the one I got for the standard side exhaust. One center tube, one offset tube. I have no idea what the rear exhaust mufflers look like.

The mufflers used for the rear exhaust option are the same - the rear exhaust kit is just pipe sections that goes from the muffler out through to the rear...
Thanks for all this info James, I know what one of my winter projects will be now...

Steve

[Iziks]

Any noticeable difference in the heat in the cabin from the Borlas? I did a short run simply deleting the FF mufflers and the heat difference is HUGE. WAY cooler in the cabin, but definitely too loud. Was thinking of maybe long glass packs - i am willing to put up with noise for less heat

[RoadRacer]

Any noticeable difference in the heat in the cabin from the Borlas? I did a short run simply deleting the FF mufflers and the heat difference is HUGE. WAY cooler in the cabin, but definitely too loud. Was thinking of maybe long glass packs - i am willing to put up with noise for less heat

It’s too hard to tell. I had double-wrapped the factory mufflers, and have none of the new ones. Plus it’s 106° and no windows or AC ;) so it hot regardless lol

[JimLev]

I hope to have the Borlas installed in the next week or 2.
I doubled wrapped the FFR mufflers which really cut down the heat that was coming up thru the aluminum floor.
As James showed the FFR mufflers have nothing inside except a few baffle plates. The Borlas are packed with insulation, without wrapping them they should run cooler than the FFR mufflers.
I’ll still wrap the Borla mufflers. I’ll post my results after I get them installed.

[RoadRacer]

Here's the fastest run from spokes event #8:


https://youtu.be/uzN-ivu1vaI

[Mastertech5]

Nice! Having fun yet? Haha.

[RoadRacer]

Nice! Having fun yet? Haha.

SO MUCH FUN!

This time was kinda important- it’s the first time (in nearly 3 years of tweaking) the cars suspension worked how I wanted it to. The roll was finally controlled and there was still negative camber on the outside tire on the fast sweepers. That sounds obvious but it’s taken a lot of mechanical tweaks and alignments (and 3.5° static camber, 10° caster!)

[RoadRacer]

This was my fastest run at Porsche Club of America (PCA) event on Saturday - my 6th run after we'd moved most of the water off the track! It was a lot of fun but felt more like skid pan training ��


https://youtu.be/r_xKnSf1nYA

In the early runs there was so much standing water! But by the time we'd all done 8 runs, the second session was almost dry.

190207

[RoadRacer]

My fastest run at spokes #9, best for second place in class (XB) today - this were a few pretty tight corners so a prepped miata won :D


https://youtu.be/usirZ66nAWo

[RoadRacer]

I wasn’t happy with the way I fitted my seats so I ripped them out and fabricated a new mounting method based on the breeze brackets I had. Much nicer, more stable and easy to remove when needed.

It’s amazing how much better the car is to drive fast with these seats.

190947 190948

[RoadRacer]

ok, steering again. There have been a few of us experimenting with various UJ's that connect to the steering rack.

I've had 3 different ones now. The factory one stripped its splines (leaving the splines on the rack in perfect condition btw, they must be much harder). So I then went for a 'clamping' style below:

190949

Steering is pretty important (!) so you'll see I added two extra things too over the years. One is a clamp that stops the UJ slipping down the spline (the factory one did this once). More importantly there's a bearing (here (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006K8N5WQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)) to hold everything in exactly the correct place in 3D space - the lack of this is what allowed the slop to strip the splines originally.

If you have PS, I don't think you'll need this support bearing, but manual steering does, IMO.

Anyway, yesterday I was driving and it got to the point that my UJ #2, the clamping one above, finally crossed the threshold of too much slop again. I could move the steering wheel far too much without anything getting to the wheels. The slop is always at this UJ.

On closer examination the clamp just doesn't work. It seems obviously better, but in practice, there's too much metal to squeeze and an insufficient bolt to squeeze it. In fact I stripped the Allen head, trying to tighten it.

This might be a better picture, showing what I mean by 'clamping'

190960

Hence attempt #3. I had bought another style a while back (here (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Z76PVP6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1)), so today I had to drill off the old one (stripped allen head) and quickly fitted the new one:

190953

I have to say, first impressions are great. The spline was tight.. I had to gently tap the UJ up the spline. None of the others were that tight. I did everything back up and will be testing after lunch..

[RoadRacer]

Quick update after a quick 60miles.. the steering is transformed. So far so good.

The low speed steering is a lot easier. There’s a lot less slop in it.. I won’t say “none” but I can turn the steering wheel and it seems immediate now that the tire moves. And that’s great through so many uj’s, splines etc.

The spline so far is the best yet.. and remember this was a cheapy Chinese part from Amazon with 17 reviews. ����*♂️


Watch this space and we’ll see what 1,000 stiffly sprung miles does to it.

[TxMike64]

'clamping'
190960


I wonder about taking this one, chucking it up in a lathe and turning it down so that the clamping bolt can actually "squeeze" onto the shaft. I ask because my kit includes to of these style UJs with the PS Kit. I have access to a lathe - we can test it...

[RoadRacer]

I wonder about taking this one, chucking it up in a lathe and turning it down so that the clamping bolt can actually "squeeze" onto the shaft. I ask because my kit includes to of these style UJs with the PS Kit. I have access to a lathe - we can test it...

Yes, good idea. I tightened to 45ftlbs (IIRC) as stated in instructions but it didnt seem to do a damn thing. Then I looked at the thickness of the metal (it appears to be steel) and I was like, well duh.

If you want this one to test with, happy to share.. I won't be using it

[wrp]

Sorry to sound like a broken record, short of welding all the u joints, I personally do not think you are going to solve the problem. With the reasonably solid front axle mount and fixed mount on the steering column, every time you hit a bump, some almost imperceptible chassis flex is going to result in stress from the steering wheel to the pinion input shaft. even if you do solve the problem on the pinion input shaft, the stress will continue up and down the shaft assembly and simply find, then work loose another UJoint. I've kind of refrained from saying this much but after nearly 100,000 miles or more, and dozens of reinstalls, along with a number of differing joint types running the entire length of the steering assembly, the Borgeson slip joint is the only thing I have found to work with any degree of confidence. The slip joint allows that pulling and pushing pressure on the D-shafts to exhaust itself without pressuring the UJoints. I may not have done mine correctly, but after nearly a year of hard driving on poorly maintained Texas roads, my piñon input shaft is still firmly mounted and mated to the Borgenson UJoint. I am no expert on this, just the guy that says oh **** when the steering wheel starts to spin without effect and then who ultimately h as to fix whatever the problem was. But, I went to this all Borgenson Solution. Because of the problems I have had, I open the hood, rock the wheel and then physically test the pinion input shaft for play every time I drive the car. I am not advocating that anyone modify what they have to try my solution, just saying that this is the only way/thing that has worked for me.

191111
Probably should have put slip join along the lower shaft to pinion input shaft run. However, the sip joint shaft uses a 1 inch UJoint. So far this has done well. I did not lock down the intermediate support bearing shaft position. I let it slide through the bearing in both directions to direct the flex to the slip joint.

191112
One issue right away was the angled joint exiting the firewall is right at its maximum bend and tended to hang up. I called Borgenson and they have a greater than 40 degree joint that is much heavier, that they do not advertise. Solved the problem and increased the stability feeling of the entire assembly.

191113
Compares the Borgenson 3/4 D Shaft/9/16 spline to original FFR joint Borgenson is heavier and less problem binding.

191114
Package for the pinion shaft to D Shaft U Joint. Sorry I've misplaced the D Shaft/slip joint part number and the greater than 40 degree joint. Call borgenson and ask they were pretty helpful.

[wrp]

Not sure there is a lot of value, but interesting look at the steering assembly components in use.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWxKf0FbAXA&t=136s

[RoadRacer]

Thanks Bill, I totally get it, but I love the journey too! You're still a few miles ahead of my journey :D

You can smile when I catch up to your solution ;)

[wrp]

Be careful out there, I'm pulling for you

[RoadRacer]

I do need to drive up there one day. Would be fun. Can you think of an excuse?

[wrp]

We need an event to get together. there are at least 3-4 of us in the area, with another 2-3 reasonably close by. It would be fun to congregate at XTreme Raceway in Farris TX and have a FFR shootout. Or meet at Cresson, Eagles Canyon, or LG2 for an event. Anyone else in the DFW area or within a reasonable drive interested?

[wrp]

The build map doesn't exist anymore does it?

[RoadRacer]

No unfortunately not. Google killed the service one day ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[RoadRacer]

You may remember that I blow the fuse whenever I use the left turn signal. Well, today was the day that task got to the top of my todo list!

It was pretty consistent recently, which made it easier. It seemed to coming on after a rain storm, but now I'm not sure that wasn't just a coincidence.

I had previously confirmed the problem isn't in the steering column, or under the dash. So that left the front harness, and taking it apart. I could have run a new wire but I enjoy wiring and thought I had done a great job with connections, wrapping/shrink tubing, tie wraps, supporting often, etc, etc. So I had to find out.

I took all the wires out the front harness and unclipped from the chassis, but could see no damage or any way the main runs could be a problem. No scuffing, it all looked pristine. I inspected the few connections that I had made under by the X, and they looked good.

I moved up to the headlight. As you know, the headlight wiring is a bit odd in that you have to connect the wires on the other side of a hollow bolt into the headlight bucket, so once connected you can't remove the headlight without cutting off the connections. The wires go through the hollow bolt unwrapped, so I did wonder if something had happened there. I cut off the connections and removed the headlight to inspect it.

191170

And found the problem!

It wasn't the bare wires going through the hollow bolt, but the wires inside must move around, and over time it wore a hole in the insulation. I couldn't believe it, but here you are:

191171

I don't see a perfect way to fix this (ideas?) so I wrapped the blue wire to the other wires with 3 layers of electrical tape and a couple layers of duct tape. I also put some duct tape on the inside of the headlight bucket.

But of course, the wires will always be able to move around in there, so eventually, I'll be doing this again.. but hopefully in many years.

BTW, I did improve the failure point of wires going through the hollow bolt, by shrink-wrapping them. I didn't think it would fit through, but it will if you're persistent.

191172

[progmgr1]

Yup. I'm running DRL so I had 2 extra wires to go through the hollow bolt. I had to drill out the holes to a larger diameter and then put Weather Pack connectors down near the X frame. (The wires with terminals crimped on now fit, sequentially. with a little persuasion.) I chamfered and polished the ends so the wire bend radius was a little larger and there were no sharp edges to rub on. I also added a little electrical tape, since I couldn't fit shrink tubing. I guess the message is: be wary of sharp edges and especially burrs wherever you run wiring.

Keith HR #894

[RoadRacer]

Yup. I'm running DRL so I had 2 extra wires to go through the hollow bolt. I had to drill out the holes to a larger diameter and then put Weather Pack connectors down near the X frame. (The wires with terminals crimped on now fit, sequentially. with a little persuasion.) I chamfered and polished the ends so the wire bend radius was a little larger and there were no sharp edges to rub on. I also added a little electrical tape, since I couldn't fit shrink tubing. I guess the message is: be wary of sharp edges and especially burrs wherever you run wiring.

Keith HR #894

Did you find a way for the wires inside the bucket not to rub over time?

[progmgr1]

Nothing special - a little tape wherever I could reach. These cars are a rolling high vibration environment and things are going to move around. I just tried to eliminate any wear points to delay the inevitable as long as possible.

Keith HR #894

[JimLev]

The LED headlights don’t draw a lot of current. I spliced both black wires together inside the bucket so there was more room in the hollow bolt for insulation, only one black wire going thru the bolt.
I mounted terminal strips on each side of the fan shroud so I don’t need to cut any wires if I need to remove the headlights.

[Mastertech5]

Great idea with the terminal strips Jim. I've been pondering that wiring situation for a while now. Are they weather proof and if so where did you get them?

[JimLev]

Not weather proof, but should be fine.
The terminal strips came from Amazon. The wire ends I’ve had for years, maybe get them on Amazon too.
I put ring lugs on the harness and the red & yellow on the wires to the headlight.

191206

191207

[RoadRacer]

The dashboard lights I had for my turn signal and main beam were always too dim to notice, and the other day I was driving for a while with a turn signal on, so I figured time to change.

I tried my luck on some "brighter" LED lights from amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXN8DG29/ref=dp_iou_view_item?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and they showed up today. MUCH better. I can see these even in strong sunshine, but they aren't dazzling. A very soft brightness. Like a satin finish lens, it isn't a "spot" of light like some LED's are.

191879 191880

[progmgr1]

Good info. That one goes in my "Build Tips" file for future reference. Thanks for posting!

Keith HR #894

[Mastertech5]

The dashboard lights I had for my turn signal and main beam were always too dim to notice, and the other day I was driving for a while with a turn signal on, so I figured time to change.

I tried my luck on some "brighter" LED lights from amazon (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXN8DG29/ref=dp_iou_view_item?ie=UTF8&psc=1) and they showed up today. MUCH better. I can see these even in strong sunshine, but they aren't dazzling. A very soft brightness. Like a satin finish lens, it isn't a "spot" of light like some LED's are.

191879 191880

I bought similar ones from Amazon but they are black with arrows for the directional and a headlight for the high beams.

[RoadRacer]

A couple of things today - first, I finished the frame-mounted alternator and tested it - it worked great and showed 15v the whole time.

Here's the final picture showing a bracket welded on the frame for the adjuster. There's more photos in this thread (https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?47623-Frame-mounted-alternator).

192112

Second, I got my new QA1's from Gordon Levy (https://www.lrclassicsllc.com/) and fitted the front set.

192114

I really need to get some helper springs this time around, since not only are my springs too short on full droop (always have been) but the QA1 hats don't work the same way as the Koni's. So these are on the way from summit:

192113

[RoadRacer]

Got the QA1's on. Some notes:

If using helper springs (the ones I bought above work great), add them to the opposite end to the adjusters. Otherwise they won't collapse all the way

After reading lots of documentation from shock manufacturers and racers and GRM, the consensus is that QA1's for cars like mine should have low compression setting (for bumps), a higher rebound setting (helps cornering), and much lower numbers than what you expect. These are light cars!

I started at 12 out of 18 and it was like a rock :). Then I researched and found I should be like 3 or 4 compression, 6 or 7 rebound. I'm now experimenting, but that's my starting point.

Curious what others started at or ended at :D

[RoadRacer]

One more thing.. Gordon Levy at https://www.lrclassicsllc.com/ deserves another shout-out.

TLDR; Call Gordon, he's very knowledgable and very helpful.

Longer version:

My car's a little different and not really a road car, even though I use it that way. But I really have it built as close to insane as my budget allows, and it'll get more insane over time!

So when Gordon sent me the shocks, he sent the normal size. 401's and 501's. But my car has shorter, stiffer springs and is lower than normal so the front shocks were too long. And he knows I'm running a track sprint at the weekend, that I really wanted the new shocks installed for. There was an easy fix, replace the long rod ends with short rod ends.. but it needed Gordon to be able to respond quickly.

He did, answering my email within the hour and offering to overnight the new parts to me. I had them in my hand midday the following day, and everything now fits and works like a dream.

We don't often say the GOOD things that happen with vendors, all we normally hear is very upset people, so I wanted to say again that I've never had a bad experience with a FFR vendor, and we should share those stories too!