Front Swaybar verdict?

[bbjones121]

So I am getting ready to take my chassis to get powder coat. I have been debating on grinding off the front sway bar brackets and just welding the swaybar bushing mount right to the chassis. This way I can make my own swaybar with straight pipe. I am wondering if this is even worth it. Should I keep the funky "rear WRX" swaybar mounts, make my own, or get rid of it all together?

[UnhipPopano]

Being that we do not know them weight distribution, springs & shocks being used and and what the car will be used for, perhaps you can report back on what we do not know and how all 3 options work out for you. Then we can debate which is the best alternative and perhaps find other alternatives.

[UnhipPopano]

Just for thought:

59495

[bbjones121]

Street 818s shocks springs. Daily driving with track days

[bbjones121]

I think I may cut out the Subaru sway bar mounts and make my own. The Subaru sway bar is a PITA to get in and out with anything installed. If I make my own, I could build it to take it apart.

[Mechie3]

The Subaru sway bar, with it funky end bends, also gets in the way of the A-arms, shocks, and knuckle adapter.

[Mechie3]

Just for thought:

59495

What car is that? I looked at making three piece swaybars. The tooling to make the splines is quite expensive.

[UnhipPopano]

It was custom made by a person who spent 17 years making a scratch car: http://www.carscoops.com/2008/10/man-hand-builds-lamborghini-countach-in.html

[bbjones121]

What car is that? I looked at making three piece swaybars. The tooling to make the splines is quite expensive.

I am just going to weld on a little stub/arm on end of pipe that I can bolt an extension arm to

[UnhipPopano]

I would look at purchasing the torsion bar as building one may not be worth it:

https://swayaway.com/tech-room/torsion-bar-wheel-rate-calculator/

https://swayaway.com/

[bbjones121]

I would look at purchasing the torsion bar as building one may not be worth it:

https://swayaway.com/tech-room/torsion-bar-wheel-rate-calculator/

https://swayaway.com/

These are expensive. I may just cut up the original front swaybar and make it work

[RM1SepEx]

The calc are simple, just use an arm on the end with a bolt going through the middle or weld em on. Then make the arm ends so that you can adjust the length of the arm for attachment;. I'd love to toss that stock mess and go straight across.

[Zach34]

I built 3-piece sway bars, front and rear, for my Mk II Roadster years ago. I think it was one of the best features on the car. Don't mind the zip tie in the picture - had just installed it. I got all the parts from here:

http://1speedway.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=76

I don't remember the prices, but they are not as expensive as the link Unhip posted. Like Mechie mentioned, none of us are going to be broaching our own splines ($$$$), but you can fabricate what you need with the speedway parts. You can get any length you want in diameters small enough to make sense for our cars. They have a sway bar spring rate chart on the site so you can figure out how heavy of a bar you want. I had a ton of adjustability with the way I did the arms. The setup was similar in the rear.

I will do the same thing on the 818R. I haven't decided on the exact location of the bars, yet, but I have some ideas.59501

The big question is what rates to use. The Roadster benefited greatly from the sway bar arms. My 818R will be about the same weight as my Roadster, I expect, but the center of gravity might be a little lower. I could see us settling on 3/4" or even a 5/8" bar, especially if the arms have to be short.

[SixStar]

I fit a COBB bar on the AEM 818R, it didn't clear anything, cut the ends off, destroyed a rim and almost cut down a tire at speed.

No bar for me.

[FFRSpec72]

I don't run a bar either, just 450 lbs springs

[tmoretta]

Is that front spring rate? What is in rear?

[lance corsi]

Chassis tuners say to use soft springs(softest without bottoming out during normal driving) and complimenting this with a sway bar. The sway bar helps reduce body roll by utilizing the spring force on the opposite side of the car, which is normally unloaded in a turn. I'm running both front and rear sway bars of my own construction. Adjustable of course, and i have built 2 different stiffness bars for my front application.

[FFRSpec72]

Is that front spring rate? What is in rear?

#600 in rear

[FFRSpec72]

Chassis tuners say to use soft springs(softest without bottoming out during normal driving) and complimenting this with a sway bar. The sway bar helps reduce body roll by utilizing the spring force on the opposite side of the car, which is normally unloaded in a turn. I'm running both front and rear sway bars of my own construction. Adjustable of course, and i have built 2 different stiffness bars for my front application.

I don't subscribe to that, as on the track I'm always going over FIA curbing and other stuff and on the hard corners the sway bar does nothing

[Hindsight]

Hi Tony, why do you say the sway bar does nothing on hard corners?

I'm no suspension tuning expert but I have heard/read the same thing Lance mentioned. Softer springs allow you to soak up the curbs and bumps, while the sway bars combat the body roll that the softer springs provide.

[FFRSpec72]

Hi Tony, why do you say the sway bar does nothing on hard corners?

I'm no suspension tuning expert but I have heard/read the same thing Lance mentioned. Softer springs allow you to soak up the curbs and bumps, while the sway bars combat the body roll that the softer springs provide.

I don't get the body roll with the stiffer springs, the softer springs make the nose dive more in hard breaking and that I can't have (sway bars do nothing for that), I really don't see a need for a sway bar on the 818 yet. The softer springs also cause issues with the aero on the 818

[Hindsight]

Yeah, Tony, I agree with you on all points you made. The only thing I will add about the sway bars is that they allow you to run a bit of a softer spring to help with hitting curbs and absorbing bumps by preventing body roll. But you are right in that they won't help front to rear weight transfer under heavy braking or acceleration. But if you look at the top end track cars like Porsche, etc, they all run sway bars so from an engineering standpoint, they have to provide more value than not having them at all. However, there seem to be different schools of thought and I've read a number of people who say they prefer to handle everything with springs.

[lance corsi]

I think I would look into a good set of adjustable shocks rather than spring the car too heavily. Also, front end geometry can be made to resist diving if you want to alter that.

[UnhipPopano]

LOL What some call diving, others call weight transfer.

[FFRSpec72]

I think I would look into a good set of adjustable shocks rather than spring the car too heavily. Also, front end geometry can be made to resist diving if you want to alter that.

almost anything is possible, the car handles well with the geometry I have now, not looking to change that, the spring setup is fine, stiff but no roll and no dive or weight transfer to front when standing on the brakes, I currently have no use for a sway bar in the front

[Canadian818]

It's interesting to see the difference in opinions on the need for a sway bar. So far though, as far as I know everyone with a sorted track setup is doing so with no sway bar and stiffer springs. But there's still so few on track, and many untested theory's and setups. I'm not going to cut off my brackets just yet.

[lance corsi]

Soft springs allow body roll, but allow the tires to remain in contact with the road. This causes body roll. Most think body roll is bad, but it can actually help handling. I would suggest to try a softer setup, using a sway bar, then compare my times to the previous setup. Sometimes it can feel worse handling, but actually produce better lap times with a soft setup. How would you know which is better unless you try both?

[Mitch Wright]

The FFR R set up is 350# front 500# rear. I have 400-600# springs. I only have 3 sessions on my car but feel the Baseline is a good stating point. Next time out I am playing with rebound settings. Once I do get more laps under my belt I will play with spring rates. I have installed and scaled the car with my optional spring rates so it won't be too bad swapping during a test day. As for sway bars I have made a front but it will likely next season before I try it.
For out of the box I am pleased with the cars performance.

[Hindsight]

One thing to note about sway bars: They are much easier to adjust to fine tune over/understeer when compared to changing spring rates. Just move the link to a different hole on the sway bar.

[FFRSpec72]

Soft springs allow body roll, but allow the tires to remain in contact with the road. This causes body roll. Most think body roll is bad, but it can actually help handling. I would suggest to try a softer setup, using a sway bar, then compare my times to the previous setup. Sometimes it can feel worse handling, but actually produce better lap times with a soft setup. How would you know which is better unless you try both?

I started with stock springs (as shipped by ffr) and went to stiffer springs after my first outing, since I could not get over 5K in engine my time was spent working the corners and thus the change I made. I don't dive my R on the road so I don't care about the ride quality, with the full aero on this car to get it to squat you need some heavy springs

Don't forget that the back can also have body roll if you go to soft springs and have an effect on the front of the car in a very negative way when in a corner. Each driver is different in how they like their car setup, so far I like the way mine handles with no under or over steer

[Samiam1017]

the springs should be there to hold the weight of the car. the bars and shocks control the weight transfer. old school racers went all spring before they understood how to control the springs movement with shock valveing.

[FFRSpec72]

the springs should be there to hold the weight of the car. the bars and shocks control the weight transfer. old school racers went all spring before they understood how to control the springs movement with shock valveing.

Not that simple, the shocks alone don't control weight transfer, the shock and springs work together especially the setup that the 818 has, as this is much like the challenge car setup. Short travel shocks can cause problems and so can long travel, so its not just about valve control

[Zach34]

Another thought: In my mind, the idea of just running a front swaybar is probably not a worthwhile track solution (maybe for the street, I dunno). What I'm after is slight power-off oversteer and slight power-on understeer so hopefully I don't have to saw on the steering wheel like a madman to keep the car pointed down the track. I don't have the skill/experience to do that. The car needs to be as easy to drive as possible and I want to use autox and track days to get me there. I don't see the guys with no swaybars complaining about massive oversteer, so I don't know if a front one by itself would be of maximum benefit.

[Samiam1017]

Not that simple, the shocks alone don't control weight transfer, the shock and springs work together especially the setup that the 818 has, as this is much like the challenge car setup. Short travel shocks can cause problems and so can long travel, so its not just about valve control

Tony unfortunately it isn't that easy. shocks alone don't control the transfer but the valving does control the speed at which it transfers. With the differences in finished weights, aero packages and what shocks guys have(assuming the valving is different between S and R shocks) its never gonna be run with the other guy runs. some guys dont like the feel of letting the body roll and waiting for the car to take a set( especially with longer shock travels), while others like so much spring its more like driving a go cart or on the complete opposite end run springs so light there in coil bind and effectively your a gocart (dont know if road racers would even try this it seems to me to be too hard to tune other than on an oval track) i personally have always went with the lightest springs possible while not bottoming out the shocks as a starting point and went from there with spring rates, only once did i develop a car that needed so much spring rate that it made the antiroll bars ineffective. With that said i have never driven my 818 , so i have no recommendation directly related to them.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony unfortunately it isn't that easy. shocks alone don't control the transfer but the valving does control the speed at which it transfers. With the differences in finished weights, aero packages and what shocks guys have(assuming the valving is different between S and R shocks) its never gonna be run with the other guy runs. some guys dont like the feel of letting the body roll and waiting for the car to take a set( especially with longer shock travels), while others like so much spring its more like driving a go cart or on the complete opposite end run springs so light there in coil bind and effectively your a gocart (dont know if road racers would even try this it seems to me to be too hard to tune other than on an oval track) i personally have always went with the lightest springs possible while not bottoming out the shocks as a starting point and went from there with spring rates, only once did i develop a car that needed so much spring rate that it made the antiroll bars ineffective. With that said i have never driven my 818 , so i have no recommendation directly related to them.

I agree it's not a cut and dry decision, it will be one that each driver has to make based on how their car is set up, after getting in some good fast laps I like the way my car reacts, beyond the bump steer issue. So unless something changes I have no need for a sway bar.

[Wayne Presley]

LOL What some call diving, others call weight transfer.

Drivers job- manage weight transfer and keep it on the black stuff, speed will follow