Back and forth, back and forth

[turbomacncheese]

Engines again, yeah, yeah. Folks, I know you've seen me go back and forth kind of a lot on this. Fact is, I still haven't made up my mind. Maybe I'm just being impatient, but I can't seem to find a suitable donor that won't require a ridiculous sale price (7 - 10K for 150-200k miles), ton of shipping (lots of cars back east, but that's 1000 to 1500 on top of the car), or lots of rebuilding/parts replacement (auctions seem OK, but by the time I'm done rebuilding the engine and replacing/repairing other stuff I need I might be just as well off to spend the money on a local car).

I've read about 20 engine threads now, and I'm curious...what does it take to swap in a turbo engine if I build na to get the project going? I know, longblock, turbo, ECU, fuel lines and pump. What else? Or am I looking at it wrong?

Ordinarily, I'm opposed to this kind of strategy, but the 818 is a special case. I'm still not convinced that an NA motor wouldn't be plenty fun for what I'm doing, but I'm also under the impression that 175 hp is the best you're going to get out of them. On the other hand, I have absolutely no sense of how much difference 25-50 more hp is going to make for all the extra cost/complexity. On the other other hand, it would be more satisfying to drive an 818 NA while I rebuild said turbo motor than drive my Hyundai Accent NA while I rebuild said turbo motor.

For the record, wife ACTUALLY SAID OUT LOUD she was concerned that I might get the 818 together too fast and get bored again, lol.

I've asked before about NA performance, and nobody seems to have any hard numbers, although ample wheel spin from an NA 2.5 was noted.

Feel free to weigh in, including a "STFU" if you think it's warranted. Thanks for humoring me thus far.

[TouchStone]

I bought one of Wayne's donor kits, it made getting started very simple. However now that I'm nearly done most of the donor parts have been scrapped/upgraded/replaced and I feel that I could have done the build cheaper had I skipped the donor all together. Once you get the donor parts in hand you realize that you don't want to use some 12-16 year old mostly working part and so you buy it new or upgrade it. If I were to do it again I would do the following. Find an engine builder that will source and rebuild the engine to spec. Then get most of the upgraded parts from Craig and Wayne ie (Rear suspension, exhaust, AWIC). Get aftermarket seats, and an aftermarket radiator. Then source the remaining donor parts from ebay which includes ECU, Wiring harness, steering column and rack&pinion, spindles, brakes, LCAs, door hinges & locks, and pedal box. I dont recall anyone on this forum taking this approach but would like to see someone attempt it.

Unless you've built one before AND you do not deviate from the FFR manual by customizing your car, which is very tempting, you will NOT build your car TOO fast. ;)

[turbomacncheese]

I've built a half-dozen engines and used to work in an automotive machine shop, so I'm not afraid of building an engine from the inside out. I am a little concerned that buying everything piecemeal could quickly add up to more than buying a donor and refurbishing parts myself. I'm also concerned that, like you, I might end up not being able to use a bunch of what I get. Is there any COMPLETE parts list available that I could use to build a price-out? I understand protecting the build-manual from non-buyers, so I'm not asking for anything proprietary. Seems like there is a lot of back-of-the-envelope calculating and spit-balling on the budget. I get it, and why it happens. It's just not my style.

All that leads to why I considered getting an NA car and working on the turbo motor for later.

Also, not concerned about building it TOO fast. More concerned that it will be super-fun at first, then not as fun later (happened with my bike as I outgrew it). I do see the benefit of just buying new(ish) parts from the get-go.

[TouchStone]

I've recorded my project costs up until I go karted it. If you want PM me and I'll send it to you.

[DSR-3]

I agree with what TouchStone wrote. I bought an un-started kit with most of the parts from a donor the seller had stripped. There are so many parts that just weren't worth using (or un-useable), or way too much time/$ to recover. fortunately I also got many of the replacement parts with my buy, but I've also replaced a lot more of donor parts. I also wanted to go with a different engine so I had to deal with the donor/new engine.

[billjr212]

You can buy a digital copy of the assembly manual for $10. It has a fairly exhaustive list at the front of all donor parts needed. As far as new vs used parts, everyone will have an opinion. Some have bought wrecked donors (including me) and essentially gotten them for free by selling off all the stuff you don't need. A bit of refurb/cleaning on a Subaru part with 100k miles on it should easily last another 100k miles on the 818 (way more than 95% of the 818s built will ever see in their lifetimes). The donor then essentially becomes a second project with zero risk. I ended up deciding against refurbishing the donor motor, so bought one from jdmmotors.com. At first, this looks like another big cost, but strip and part out the "broken" motor and it's close to break even again.

[Pearldrummer7]

you will NOT build your car TOO fast. ;)

echo this.

You can refurb parts like knuckles, etc. with an electrolysis setup (pretty cheap, lemme know if you want details). You can later upgrade for more power, though I expect you'll want it shortly after getting the car. I would start with a turbo motor that's fairly stock and then expand from there. The engine part is easy to install; I say get the suspension and aluminum paneling done, the seats/interior, fuel system, etc. and by that point you'll have a more clear idea of what you want to do.

[turbomacncheese]

You can buy a digital copy of the assembly manual for $10. It has a fairly exhaustive list at the front of all donor parts needed. As far as new vs used parts, everyone will have an opinion. Some have bought wrecked donors (including me) and essentially gotten them for free by selling off all the stuff you don't need. A bit of refurb/cleaning on a Subaru part with 100k miles on it should easily last another 100k miles on the 818 (way more than 95% of the 818s built will ever see in their lifetimes). The donor then essentially becomes a second project with zero risk. I ended up deciding against refurbishing the donor motor, so bought one from jdmmotors.com. At first, this looks like another big cost, but strip and part out the "broken" motor and it's close to break even again.

Glad to know this. I wasn't aware about the manual OR that parts from the motor would go for so much.


echo this.

You can refurb parts like knuckles, etc. with an electrolysis setup (pretty cheap, lemme know if you want details). You can later upgrade for more power, though I expect you'll want it shortly after getting the car. I would start with a turbo motor that's fairly stock and then expand from there. The engine part is easy to install; I say get the suspension and aluminum paneling done, the seats/interior, fuel system, etc. and by that point you'll have a more clear idea of what you want to do.

Thanks. This gets to what is concerning me the most. I'm also not so worried about swapping the engine later...it's everything that supports the engine. I know on most cars it is prohibitive, but the 818 isn't built differently for NA motors, so it's all stuff that we put in in the first place.

[Pearldrummer7]

Honestly, it's not very difficult. I've definitely considered having a second engine/transmission so I won't have long downtimes in case there ever is a problem. I think a swap could be done in a few hours with 2 or 3 guys (and some beer). It took me like 20 mins to install engine/trans on my car, and a lot longer to do things like I mentioned in the post above

[lance corsi]

Has anyone considered making the engine removable from beneath the car, kinda like Volkswagen did? Would that make engine swaps any easier? I mean, you'd still have the same amount of items to disconnect, but if a person doesn't have an engine hoist, it could prove worthwhile. Just saying.

[TouchStone]

Has anyone considered making the engine removable from beneath the car, kinda like Volkswagen did? Would that make engine swaps any easier? I mean, you'd still have the same amount of items to disconnect, but if a person doesn't have an engine hoist, it could prove worthwhile. Just saying.

Interesting idea. However I don't think its worthwhile/possible with the 818. There is just too much chassis in the way and any amount of making removable beams will weaken the car significantly. Also if your issue is you don't have an engine hoist then I would assume you also don't have a car lift. You would need to raise the car 4-5ft to slide the engine out from under the car.

[SixStar]

By planning ahead and using bolts and Dzus fasteners instead of rivets I can be here in about 30 minutes.

58912

[RetroRacing]

What sixStar said. We can remove our 4' diffuser (center section), the rear of the car, the rear wing and the complete top lid in about 20 minutes, but you have to plan every fastener

[Zach34]

Has anyone considered making the engine removable from beneath the car, kinda like Volkswagen did? Would that make engine swaps any easier? I mean, you'd still have the same amount of items to disconnect, but if a person doesn't have an engine hoist, it could prove worthwhile. Just saying.

If you make the two diagonal square tubes right above the engine removeable, it's a billion times easier to install the engine/trans. Not possible to remove from below.

[lance corsi]

So I guess Volkswagen doesn't know diddley about engineering. With millions of vehicles built, and lots of engines r&r'd, they know squat. Also, I believe the subie overall height is lower than a vw engine when considering the height of the fan shroud. By my calculation, one should be able to remove a subie engine downwards by only raising the rear of the car to a clearance height of just over 2 ft.
As far as strength, I have copied a tube joint which will allow easy disassembly without sacrificing strength. This type of joint is routinely used in drag car\bike construction. I will show you all how to get it done. Just don't say it can't be done, cause it can and will.

[flynntuna]

Got to admire your willingness to truly make this car your own. I can't wait to see your solution to this challenge. Kinda figured that something was coming when you weren't using the factory crossbrace that cam with the kit. I'm very interested in how your dealing with the suspension bracket that's on the bottom crossbrace that has the engine mount brackets attached to it. I'm assuming that your building an engine mount system that will bolt to the frame at the front were the fuel tank sits and a new crossbrace were you'll mount the suspension bracket to. Lots of pictures please. :cool:

[turbomacncheese]

Right. I'm not at all worried about swapping the engine. I want to know what has to get swapped WITH the engine, and how much of a pain that will be. FWIW, I'm talking to two guys right now selling WRXs. One probably needs an engine rebuild, the other probably needs a transmission rebuild. Both have lots of goodies in the motors.

[tmoretta]

The time consuming part of the swap is not the body panel removal, it is all of the fuel, coolant and electrical connections and draining etc.

[turbomacncheese]

Not concerned about the time, either. I wouldn't do it every other weekend. It was a possible path to get this thing moving cheaply, stretch out the rest of the cost over a period of months while I build a proper turbo engine.

[NBinSD]

I think the only blocker to swapping to a turbo motor later may be the wiring harness and ecu... Swapping the motor isn't tough but rewiring the car is a different story.

[Sgt.Gator]

As for going with an NA to get things moving... the 2.5i is available as a re-manufactured long block with a warranty at a reasonable price. Hard to beat that option. You'll still need the ECU, engine harness, sensors, intake mani, throttle and a hundred other little parts. But the engine harness, ECU, mani, TB, and most of what you need are also widely available at wrecking/recyclers as individual pieces that you can inspect before you buy; unlike the batch of stuff you get from a donor. I would use all new OEM sensors though.

If you aren't satisfied with the performance you could sell your now complete 2.5i engine to someone else here or a to a Legacy owner that needs a new engine and doesn't want to go thru the rebuild process.

[turbomacncheese]

I think the only blocker to swapping to a turbo motor later may be the wiring harness and ecu... Swapping the motor isn't tough but rewiring the car is a different story.

This is where my ignorance shows. Does the entire car need to be re-wired? I would have expected the engine-specific wiring to be strictly in the engine bay, with everything else running through a bulkhead connector that would be interchangeable across similar models. I don't think I want to take a chance on having to rip out the entire interior to do the swap. I would rather pirate a bulkhead connector and chop up the harness accordingly on the first go, unless this is not reasonable.



As for going with an NA to get things moving... the 2.5i is available as a re-manufactured long block with a warranty at a reasonable price. Hard to beat that option. You'll still need the ECU, engine harness, sensors, intake mani, throttle and a hundred other little parts. But the engine harness, ECU, mani, TB, and most of what you need are also widely available at wrecking/recyclers as individual pieces that you can inspect before you buy; unlike the batch of stuff you get from a donor. I would use all new OEM sensors though.

If you aren't satisfied with the performance you could sell your now complete 2.5i engine to someone else here or a to a Legacy owner that needs a new engine and doesn't want to go thru the rebuild process.
I didn't know that, either. Having a pro-rebuilt engine would definitely help resale if that was an issue, and the warranty would be super-nice if resale isn't an issue. I should be able to afford all new sensors with what I save on getting started. If I go this route, it might make sense to get an N/A donor, drive it with the donor engine while I source/pay for a new one.

THANK YOU for all the input, guys. I'll let you know how it turns out with these two guys I'm talking to. I see the cars this week.


update: I found a couple of