Very weird issue with rear knuckle - Do I have the right one?

[Frank818]

Oh... my... god... In my VR6 build I have come across a lot of issues for which all of them so far have been fixed. This one, however, although it's not VR6 related, neither me nor DriveShaftShop can explain what's going on. Can you?

I have done tons of research, now coming here to post as a last resort.

Context: As some of you know, I build my 818 with a VR6 turbo. To do so, I need totally custom shafts to mate with my Porsche G50 gearbox and the so-called WRX spindles/knuckles I have. In order to maximize shaft strength, I got custom WRX outer CVs (a little wider diameter on the spline area) and my rear hubs have been broached/bored to accommodate the bigger CVs. DSS built me those shafts based on my measurements which seem ok!!! But... the outer CVs don't fit. They don't fit in the spindle! Not the hubs, the spindle!

They don't sit on the bearing, they sit on the seals. Which means they lose length and I have no thread to thread the axle nut onto!

DSS confirmed me the CVs work with WRX spindles. I cannot find the part number on my spindles, at least not with the backplate on. Is there one? I don't know. I have found the DSS CVs have a wider area that sits on the bearings (on seals in my case) compared to my NATURALLY ASPIRATED 2003 CVs (supposed to be same as WRX right?). I don't know what it's like on real WRX CVs. I don't know how real WRX spindles look like, are they different to mines?

Is it possible the spindles I have are slightly different than those of 2002-2007 Imprezas? I got these from a Forester but I can't recall if it's a 2000, 2001 or 2002. 2000's should be incompatible as it's the G10 version and we need G11. But I can't find out the truth. I know the spindles I use fit perfectly with all of FFR's brackets, trailing arm, lateral links and stuff.

Is it possible the bore size on the spindle is larger by 1/8" on 2002-2007 WRX compared to 2000 Forester (assuming I got 2000's)?
Is it possible I am not using the right seals?
Anyone knows the exact part #s for the 2 inner seals?

Check out the comparison between the 2 CVs on my pictures.

What do your CVs look like? Like the rusted one or the grey one?

What is my problem? How come I am short about half an inch in thread length so that I have no threads on the axle nut?

:(

Don't mind the larger diameter on the splines, that's normal. Don't mind the location of the splines, that does not matter. Don't mind the longer threaded section, that doesn't matter. But mind the larger diameter on the section close to the bearings, mind the distance from the top of the tip where the threads starts compared to my 2003 NA axles.

If anyone can take measurements or pictures of your axle stub, if you get same as the rusted one I have, then something's weird on the DSS stubs.

I am so speechless on this one...

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[svanlare]

I'm on the road this week, but I'm happy to pull my axles and take pictures if still needed on Saturday when I get home.

[Frank818]

Tnx Steve! I'll owe you one.

To all, my prob will interest anyone with lots of torques. It has nothing to do with the VR6, it has everything to do with torques. If you have a lot and need to upgrade to stronger CVs from DSS, this will concern you as you would want the DSS WRX CVs to fit your WRX spindles, right?

[Frank818]

I think we can make this check-up simpler.

If someone could measure the ID and OD of the outer seals and the ID of the bearing hole at the spindle level (the ID within which the seals go), that should help me a LOT. I will provide a pic with markings tonight. I can't upload here from work.

Cuz if I take those 3 measurements and compare with mines, if we have the same, then the problem is DSS's CVs.


Tnx very much to all of you!

[STiPWRD]

Frank, I replaced all of my wheel bearings and seals on my wrx spindles. The part numbers for the rear wrx seals are:

OIL SEAL OUT RR: 28015AA090
OIL SEAL IN2 RR: 28015AA110
OIL SEAL IN1 RR: 28015AA100

Some of your dial caliper measurements are a bit hard to read in the photos but it looks like you're trying to show that you have an interference at the oil seal? The oil seal has an ID of 1.930? and the DSS perch OD is 2.083? or 2.003? I can't tell. I'd suggest taking the seal ID measurement with the top fingers of the calipers as those are meant for interior measurements. The biggest thing that jumps out at me is the length of the nub on the end of the DSS shaft (about 0.5"?). This is where it should be threaded (like on the stock shaft) but is not. Often times you may need to put the axle nut on and pull the axle through the seal, but if there's no thread, there's nothing to grab as you know. Make sure you put some grease on the DSS splines. Please do me a favor and take measurements A,B,C,D. A and C should be equivalent. B looks like about 0.5" from one of your photos.
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[Frank818]

I have C (4-1/16") and D (3/16") already, I'll check on A and B tonight.

I cannot use the top fingers, I tried and they hit on the spindle, not long enough.

It is 2.083" for DSS's perch.

I got pictures from DSS! Guess what, their OEM WRX CV looks 95% like the one on the left on my picture above with the 2 CVs. Their OEM WRX CV has a "stepped-up shaped" perch, like a step drill, SAME threading pattern/length and same nub (although squared instead of round but it's the same) as their own DSS CV.

It appears I don't have WRX CVs (or DSS is wrong, but I doubt). DSS's spindle is also LARGER in the center hole! It's 2.462" wide, I have less than that but I have to measure it.

I'll upload DSS's pix tonight.

I'm curious to see what shape CVs you got here on the forum and if your center hole on the spindle is 2.5" or less.
DSS's OEM WRX CV is 2.125" wide on perch OD (tnx for the vocab). I have 1.97".

[STiPWRD]

I found a pic of my rear axle from when I was putting them together last year. It seems to match what you have exactly:
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These are from a 2002 wrx

[Frank818]

It does match EXACTLY the one I have. Old pictures are still useful! :)

But it doesn't mean my spindle would be the same as yours. Maybe the CVs can fit 2 slightly different spindles (DSS's and mine, since DSS's have a wider center hole). Which is why I am looking at the center hole width on the spindle too. Joining these 2 info will tell me if I'm wrong. So far I am not. I don't mind being wrong! I just want to chase the issue here, no matter what it is as long as I put the finger on it and fix it.

Really I appreciate your help!

[Frank818]

Here are DSS's pix:

476944769547696476974769847699

On that last pic, the CV on the left is machined OEM specs.

DSS:

same specs as the WRX and STi OEM housing dimensions

The one on the right, is stronger CV (mine). As you can see, they are shaped very similar, but my CV and STiPWRD's are quite different.
His measurement of 2.462" is without the seals. I have seals on and I do not see that metal surrounding he is measuring on. I can't really compare. I did a measurement at the spindle and I have 2.5" but I think I measured at a wider area then where he is, I can't tell.

DSS says their spindle is from a 2002 WRX.

47700477014770247703

Maybe I got the wrong seals?

A: 3-11/16"
B: 7/16"
C: 4-1/16"
D: 3/16"

[Frank818]

I think I found the problem.

I do have the right part numbers on the seals. However, I think they are installed wrong!

My current configuration is seal AA100 is the one on the OUTSIDE of the center hole. By doing that, the seal blocks the CV from sliding in, like this:


47704


But, if I fit the AA110 on the outside, it extends and takes the shape of the CV, like this (you can see the part number):

47705


Which way is right?
If the second, then I gain 0.4" by doing that. 0.4" is exactly what I am missing, it's about 95% of the threads on the nut!!

Plz tell me Way #2 is how to install the seals?

[Frank818]

I think it's Way #2!

Check out http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1925081

Pictures. The seal I have on the outside is the one with the small yellow double-dots. That's the INNER seal in that procedure!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Frank
I had my hubs off tonight, so I took a couple of pictures for you.
The seal surface is about 1.96" diameter and the shaft is 4" long
Bob

47713 47714

[Frank818]

Tnx Bob! That confirms we have the same CV.

After looking at videos and pictures, it seems my seals have been installed wrong! The tappered seal must go on the outside edge of the spindle, mine was installed on the inside. The CV does not slide in the seal it just sits on it.

I have spare seals, will get that fixed. It's the simplest fix and cheapest fix possible. And it's stupid, which is what I mentioned could be in my early posts.

DSS uses the same spindle as we have. They have a different shaped OEM specs CV but it fits our spindles. The seal installation seems to make the whole difference here.

[Frank818]

After closer inspection, not sure the seals are the issue. They do need to be swapped, but look at the outer edge width on the spindle vs the CV. It's going to hit the cv and I am 4mm away.

47717

Bob, still got your axle out?

What is your width at the orange markings? 2.65 or 2.8?

47718

[STiPWRD]

Frank, glad you are closer to finding the solution. Who installed your seals? Also, I'm a bit concerned that A and C are different by 0.375", they should be the same. And since B is 0.25" longer than D, this puts the threads further into the spindle on the DSS axle (by a total of 0.625!?). I can't imagine you'd get as much thread as you need on the axle nut unless I'm missing something.

So far, based on the photos from me you and Bob, it looks like DSS is using the wrong axle shafts. I hope they fix this. At least in your case, it's easier to remove metal than it is to add metal. Any chance they're willing to fix your shafts?

[Frank818]

My mech installed the seals, and the ones on the front wheels too (they are quite hard to turn and squeak, I always thought it was wrong, now I know why, I gotta replace the 2 inner ones as well, any chance you got the part numbers too? In case I don't have the right ones). He's not a Subaru specialist.

The shafts would fit if the center hole largest width is 2.8". But it's not. I have asked DSS to measure their's.
What doesn't add up here is that they claim using a WRX spindle and a 2002 WRX/STI CV. It works for them. I got the same CV. It doesn't work. So it has to be around the spindle, the problem. Whether I got the right spindle or not, I have to check where are the differences with DSS. Found out about the seals, but don't think it's enough.

Are there 2 spindles that look the same but have a different center hole width? I don't know.
On DSS's pix (not sure I uploaded that one), I could clearly see they can fit the CV all the way in the spindle and only the part/step closer to the boot is exposed.

[STiPWRD]

Check post #5 for all three seal part numbers that go into the rear wrx spindles. WRX and STI spindles are different in that wrx spindles accept 24 spline axle shafts and STI spindles accept larger diameter 27 spline shafts. I still think the shaft is the problem (not the spindle), theirs is clearly different than what we have. I'm surprised they didn't use your actual axles to design theirs. Try removing the outer oil seal completely and seeing if the axle will fit.

[Frank818]

The part numbers on post 5 are for rear seals (which I will use to order 1 set, I have 1 spare). I also need to change front spindle seals, cuz I'm sure my mech installed the wrong way there as well.

Yeah I have to remove the seals anyway, so I'll try that and see if it slides in.

But if they are using an STI spindle, maybe the STI one is larger (forget about the hub, talking about the center hole width here).
If their CV is wrong, how come it fits their spindle but not mine? That's why I'm still scratching my head. It is the CV they sell to anyone who wants std size WRX or stronger WRX CVs. You'd want to upgrade your CVs on your 818 and that's the one they would ship you.

[Frank818]

28015AA070 and 080 for the front seals, can't see if there is a tappered seal but I'll look into it later.
Exchanging more info with DSS at the moment.

[STiPWRD]

28015AA070 and 080 for the front seals, can't see if there is a tappered seal but I'll look into it later.
Exchanging more info with DSS at the moment.
Those are the part numbers I used for the front.


If their CV is wrong, how come it fits their spindle but not mine? That's why I'm still scratching my head.
Yea I guess you'd have to have a seal interference right? If I were to buy the full assembled axles from DSS, I would definitely want them to use the shafts that resemble my axles. Otherwise I would only get the shafts and use my CV joints. I know your case is custom. Good luck!

[Frank818]

What is your width at the orange markings? 2.65 or 2.8?

47718

That orange width for DSS is 3.02" to 3.05"!! I only got 2.65".
DSS and I don't have the same spindle.

But I can't find another way to tell what spindle he's got. I'm stuck.

[STiPWRD]

Just brainstorming but here are a few options:
1. Go to junk yard and measure one of their spindles without buying it.
2. Dremel away the interfering metal on your spindles
3. Send the DSS shafts back along with your axles (or just the necessary measurements) and have DSS turn down their axles to match yours.

[Frank818]

Just brainstorming but here are a few options:
1. Go to junk yard and measure one of their spindles without buying it.
2. Dremel away the interfering metal on your spindles
3. Send the DSS shafts back along with your axles (or just the necessary measurements) and have DSS turn down their axles to match yours.

Yeah thought about a bunch of stuff including some of the above.

1- Time consuming but could be worth it, when I went for my spindles with rear discs in winter 2014 there weren't many 02-07s there and most were complete, they had to remove the spindles so not much to measure unless I pay first. Calling a lot of places for on the shelf spindles would work. I keep it on the back burner.
2- Too afraid, there wouldn't be enough material left in an area, I have to remove about 1/8" all around. That tells me there exists another spindle that looks like ours but with a bigger center hole. Could it be an STI of some year? I'll check with Scargo or Glyn, someone has used STI spindles with a special bracket.
3- Yes, I think I could send DSS my entire spindle assembly and tell them make it work.
4- Go at my friend's shop and measure my real donor's spindles. It's a 03 NA, if it has 3" wide then bingo, if it's 2.65", then DSS has an incompatible spindle, but I have to find what it is, otherwise how will they believe me? They sell these CVs to WRX guys and I'm the first with that problem. Something's weird, eh?
5- Asking 2 persons on this forum to measure the orange width on post 21. If we all have 2.65", then I think I'd have enough weight to go back to DSS. If you all have 3", then I will buy 2 real WRX spindles. I like this option #5, but I have to find 2 persons who won't waste 2h just for that measurement.

[Frank818]

I think what I thought could be right. I think DSS has an STI spindle, as they sell their CVs to STIs.

Check out this picture:

47745


Now, I need to know how wide is the center hole on the right spindle. Of course, it's so hard to find on the internet cuz no one in the World (but me!) needs to know that!

I think I'll ask DSS to measure the width of their bearing. The STI one is larger.

Spindles:
02-07 Impreza (excluding WRX STI)
LR: 28419FE011
RR: 28419FE001

04-07 Impreza WRX STI
LR: 28411FA010
RR: 28411FA000

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Frank
I took some pictures for you.
Bob


47747

47748

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[Frank818]

Oh crap. That's 2.9" on the large hole? I have different spindles then. Yours looks different and the hole is larger.

I'll have to check my spare 03 NA. They should be the same as yours.

Tnx so much for the pix!

[Frank818]

Ok I am speechless.

My OEM 2003 Naturally Aspirated 2.5 TS rear spindles have a 2.6" center hole width.

Why?

I thought NA and WRX from 2002 to 2007 used the same spindle. Maybe they don't after all?
Although part # 28419FE001 fits both WRX and NA, then why would Bob have a 2.9" center hole and I would have a 2.6"?

I am not sure if I buy a set I'd get the right thing and I don't know what to look for, as that part # is the same for both models.

[STiPWRD]

You could take your DSS axles to a junk yard that has wrx spindles and test fit them on the spot.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Frank
I'f I zoom in on that picture, the hole was closer to 3.010.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=47760&d=1448028971

My spindle is out of an 04 forester xt.

according to Opposedforces it is part #28419FE000 for the rear right.

here is info on the rear bearing (2.559 OD)

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1118130&cc=1428780&jnid=452&jpid=12


I'm not sure why you want this diameter. Nothing goes into it.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=47764&d=1448033079

[Frank818]

You could take your DSS axles to a junk yard that has wrx spindles and test fit them on the spot.

Good idea. If it fits I buy it, my man.



Frank
I'f I zoom in on that picture, the hole was closer to 3.010.

DSS measured 3.02-3.05", so that's spot on.

DSS told me their spindle is from a 02 WRX non-STI previously owned by a guy working there.



according to Opposedforces it is part #28419FE000 for the rear right.

That's the right part #, but that same part number is compatible with 03 NA which is the spindle I got in my other set, but my other set shows 2.6" where you show 3.01". Weird!


I'm not sure why you want this diameter. Nothing goes into it.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=47764&d=1448033079


This will:

47770

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This will:

47770

Why aren't your CV's tapered like this.

47775

Are you sure your not trying to put a front CV joint in a rear spindle?

[Frank818]

Good question Bob.

Check out post 9 with DSS' pix. They have a rear spindle like yours, the OEM specs left CV fits and is not tapered.
Using my CV in your spindle would work too.

[Frank818]

FIXED!!!!!!!

I knew something was fishy when my mech measured the center hole when I called him yesterday. It just didn't make any sense.

Well I went to the shop, measured myself and tested the shaft in. Actually as soon as I grabbed the 03 NA spindle I knew it was right!

Look at the 2 center holes! Ok the spindles are not in the same orientation but you can clearly see the rusted on has a larger top center hole and it leaves less metal on the edges.

47824

So I'm good, any Impreza, but the STI, from 02 to 07 will have correct spindles.

The only thing is I have to grind the bottom where the long lateral bolt slides in, cuz the CV clip hits on the spindle (kind of odd, but it's an easy fix).

47825

Now I need to buy more bearings, seals, reinstate my Bucket-o-Doom to derust the spindles, clean, paint, remove backplates, hubs, install on 03s, etc. At least I found it and it's fixed, just need to reinstall parts. Car won't run until Spring 16 for sure.

I'd like to thank very much any one here with your brainstorm ideas, pictures, comments, etc. It helped dig into the issue. And you were all very quick to respond which helped a lot to fix it within one week.